June 21, 2023 • 39 mins
Greg Ballard interviews Deborah Fell, Managing Partner at Chief Outsiders, about leading fractional executives. Deborah shares how Chief Outsiders provides growth consulting by deploying part-time CMOs and CSOs into client companies. She discusses the high bar for talent and the experience required to be adaptable across companies and industries. Key insights include aligning with the client's mission, embracing the culture, and leading with inspiration. Deborah also talks about making the transition from CMO to leading a team of all-star marketing leaders.
Key Moments
0:00 - Introduction to Deborah Fell and Chief Outsiders
2:30 - Overview of how Chief Outsiders provides fractional CMOs and CSOs to drive growth for clients
5:00 - The high bar for talent and experience required to be adaptable across companies
7:30 - Aligning with the client's mission and vision as a key success factor
10:00 - Embracing the client's culture and integrating into the company
12:00 - Leading with inspiration rather than just management
15:00 - Deborah's transition from CMO to leading a team of CMOs
18:00 - Staying adaptive through surrounding yourself with smart people
20:00 - Making leadership and self-development lifelong pursuits
To learn more about Deborah and her work, click HERE.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Greg Ballard (11:56:39):
Hello, and welcome to the adaptive executive. I'm your host, Greg Ballard. And I am joined by a very special guest, Deborah fel managing partner with Chief outsiders. Deborah, glad to have you with us today.
Deborah (11:56:51):
Thank you. Great to be here.
Greg Ballard (11:56:54):
So you and I've, we've, we've connected many times over the last several years, we've built a really good relationship. And I've just finally got you here on the show, and so glad to have you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Today, could you tell us a little bit about your journey and what brought you to Chief outsiders?
Deborah (11:57:13):
Well, what brought me to Chief outside person in the first place was I have many years of being a marketing marketing leader. You know, starting off from the beginning, a long time ago, and at one point, I had stepped out of my role as senior vice president of brand marketing for Marriott International, which I I loved, never intended to stay there as many years as I had. And I stepped into a role as cmo for a company out of Sweden with global operating operations. And at a certain point, Chief, someone from Chief outsiders called me and they said, you know, we're kind of doing, you're kind of doing what we're doing? And how would you like to be part of an
(11:57:55):
organization that's full of Chief Marketing Officer, so your peers, our chief marketing officers, and it didn't take me long to say, Yes, let's go. And I haven't back that waseight or nine years ago. And it's just been great to be in the group. And now we've added Chief Sales officers so we can really address the growth engine, the growth needs of companies that we work with.
Greg Ballard (11:58:25):
Fantastic. Tell us a little bit about chief outsiders. Yeah, market you serve you knew and how you guys operate.
Deborah (11:58:32):
Chief outsiders, is a company that's really focused on helping CEOs of mid market, and I like to say 20 million to 200 million, just because it has a ring to it. But certainly smaller and larger, but that's on a bell curve, that's probably our focus, but CEOs of mid market companies, and this is the big important line, who want to grow, who are who are interested in growth, they may have growth challenges or want to open up new markets, or want to be more wildly successful than they are today versus their markets. And that's what the company is really about, how do we do that? We have about 130, fractional, and I used to have to explain that to everyone. Now, it seems to be
(11:59:18):
more more known, we can be interim or we can come we come in on a part time basis, but help to deliver full time results, big time results. For companies in the in the midmarket, whether they have a marketing challenge, and need a marketing plan. Or they may have a sales team that needs leadership, or even a sales leader who wants some help in putting together or improving the foundations that they that they have or supporting some of their people. And so we work with companies, whether they're a they could be private equity portfolio companies, we work with many, many private equity portfolio companies, they or they could be a family founded multi generational company, or a regular
(12:00:06):
company with a regular CEO, who's who's who's looking to grow.
Greg Ballard (12:00:11):
That's fantastic. So if I'm capturing this as your team can come in, kind of hit the ground running and operate as that Chief Marketing Officer, that Chief Sales Officer and be on the team fully immerse, supporting the CEO into realizing their vision.
Deborah (12:00:30):
Yes, absolutely. Now I'm managing partner today on the executive team of the company. So I'm not really Consulting at this point, except every time I talk to a CEO, I am consulting in some way that listening and asking questions. But But yes, you I can remember having having talking to a CEO on a Friday when I was consulting, and saying how soon do you know if we were to do this? How, how soon would you want me there? He said, can you be in New York on Monday? And I said yes. And I was there on Monday, and I was in New York every week for quite some time. So we we are instantly on. And what that means is we don't come come in and take you know, six months to to onboard. We come in and
(12:01:23):
look for low hanging fruit immediately and start working on the scope of work that we've discussed with the CEO and getting there in the first place. We tend to To sit on theexecutive team, in our clients, we are the CSO, or we are the CMO in the company, there is a team, we're leading it. And that's how we we operate for the most part.
Greg Ballard (12:01:49):
So that's. So I would say the stakes are high. Right? The stakes are high, you don't get a redo. Right. There's no Mulligan's at this
Deborah (12:01:59):
level. And the deliverables are clear,
Greg Ballard (12:02:04):
the deliverables are clear.
Deborah (12:02:05):
Well, I'd like to say in fact, one of my cmo says, We're not furniture, we don't just come and sit in the corner office, there's no corner offices for us. You know, we're there to accomplish, what needs to be accomplished, build the muscle inside the company, maybe even helping them hire people, but certainly mentoring and training their people so that they're better off. And they have a not not just a roadmap and a playbook, but they have things in process, they have scaled, they are scaling, they are at a different level in terms of their customer growth, whatever the objective was.
Greg Ballard (12:02:43):
So that's fantastic. And one of the things that I'd love you to dive into kind of speak a little bit to the caliber of the Chief Marketing Officer, the Chief Sales officers that are on your team. And in addition to that, if you could speak to how you've had to transition from being one of them to leading a group of them.
Deborah (12:03:02):
Yes, yes. So I'll tell you that we hire about 1% of the people that we interview. And so that gives you a sense that we talked to a number of people, but we're very selective. And and part of that selection process is mean, I'm not even talking to them. Unless they've had multiple successful stints as a CMO or a CSO, preferably in different industries. If they've been been spent their whole career in one industry, they're likely not going to be a chief outsiders, because we want someone who has really, certainly a perspective, beyond one industry and has been successful. I mean, how do you stay in one company for for 20 years, and then suddenly be going from company to
(12:03:52):
company to make a difference? So some of these things, but certainly, having led and driven this success in a few companies not just been in the room when it happened. And sowe have a very extensive process for interviewing, but you spoke to the caliber of people, it's really, you know, it's really the best of the best world class, marketing experts, world class sales leaders. And it's kind of interesting, because one of the, one of the, the new interviewing I don't know what the word is to use approaches, I guess that's the right word that I take is, I've actually said, let me give you the five reasons not to join cheap outsiders, because we want to make sure people know this is
(12:04:43):
different. This is not sitting in a corner office, if that's what they've been doing. This is rolling up the sleeves and getting things done. You know, have I written a pressrelease? Have I written a line of coffee? Have I actually pushed email campaigns out through Salesforce or HubSpot? You bet. But our primary role is really developing the insights and the strategy because if you don't have the right insights, and you don't have the right strategies, then all your execution will can tend to be random acts of marketing. So having these great world class leaders who know how to prioritize, create the right strategies, work within another organization within the culture of that
(12:05:25):
organization, and make sure that the right things are executed, and that it works. And that really takes the best of the best to to know how to do that, who also haveextraordinary people skills.
Greg Ballard (12:05:39):
Yeah, so this is where I get really kind of excited and interested like I really want to click on this because you're the folks on your team. They're operating in a fractional way. The the stakes are high there, there is no Mulligan's. The deliverables are clear. And they have consistently performed right there's a track record of performance. And these these folks, from what I gather these, your team goes into not just one company at a time, but may have multiple companies that they're supporting as a fractional unit, Chief Marketing Chief Sales Officer. So you know, the lens that we like to explore in this podcast is what helps managers to be exact adaptive, what helps
(12:06:24):
executives to be adaptive, and the folks on your team, like exemplify that they're, they're doing their role at level At any, all star level, in multiple different scenarios?And I'd be curious to say, what are some of the principles or the values of the approaches that you give people coming into chief outsiders, so they can operate in that adaptive way, shifting between different seats, different companies, and still really performing at a high level?
Deborah (12:06:56):
Yes. And let me just say this, and I'll answer your question. For the most part, the CEOs that they work with, we tell them, for example, Joe has three clients, your number, you're the third client, and then we have that whole discussion about them. What does that mean? That doesn't mean he's working the first you know, three hours of the day, that's not what that means. But they, they, they forget that they're not their full time person. Because our team has a way of, of working very effectively and very efficiently and just always being available. So if a CEO needs to get information or needs to run something by one of our folks at seven or eight o'clock on a Friday evening,
(12:07:40):
they're going to call a way to answer the phone. And that's called commitment. So to get back to your first question, you know, the, I think the first thing is that the, thefractional executives, and I'll just use that term are cmo and CFO, but the fractional executive needs to be, first of all interested, be more interested than interesting, we'd like to say, be interested in that CEO, and his or her business problem. Because when they call us, and when they sign on, for Chief outsiders, they're not doing that, because they want to just work with someone you know, to get a B, done, ABC done, they're doing it because they have a level of pain, they have a problem that they need
(12:08:25):
solved, or an urgent, strategic initiative that that needs to to be for advanced, and it's for whatever reason, it's not invent advancing. So our team needs to understand whatthose issues are, and be excited about and committed to working with this. So it's being clear on mission. That's number one. Now, the other part of the challenge is when you get in there, it's rarely exactly as described, even though we tend to talk to a few people, you know, you know, this in your own world, we did. Something was in the unsaid, if you will. And so we have to our guys have to kind of pivot and and, and sometimes even get with the CEO and say, Now these were the priorities, when we started, this is
(12:09:17):
what I see. And talk that through and say I think we should do more of this and less of this, or maybe this goes away, and this comes in altogether. And then that getsnegotiated can because it is all about alignment with the CEO, which is number two, is that they should be in rock solid with alignment with the CEO in about every way you can think of we even provide a checklist and news, you know, CMOs and CSOs sometimes look at me like, really, when we go through this, we have a checklist to even ask, like, how does the CEO like to communicate? If you prefer text? Do you prefer email? Okay, we want to check in with them, least 30 minutes a week, we can talk about anything the CEO
(12:10:00):
wants to talk about, we're probably going to want to give them a little bit of update, tell them what's ahead, maybe tell them what we learned. But it is about maintainingthat alignment. That's a continuous alignment, and relationship building, but with the CEO. And the third point is, and it's also not just the CEO, this is where I think, you know, we're a consulting firm by definition, but we really are a bunch of operational executives, who have reported, you know, to the C in the C suite to the CEO for the better part of our careers, and we have some who have been the CEO. But so we we understand that we understand things have to get done. So but, but but it is important for
(12:10:46):
everyone to remember that you're also working with perhaps your team, you may be working, you need to work with the CFO who's running, you know, customer service. We're, youknow, Have you have you spoken with, you know, the head engineer, or anyone who's running, manufacturing, really understanding and certainly HR to you know, the CHR o Do you understand what his or her opinion is of what's going on and what we need to work on. So it is building relationships, certainly with the CEO, being on point to the vision and the mission, or helping them define it, but also being integrated into the company as a whole As an outstanding member of the team, and I, I will just stop for a moment, I
(12:11:38):
have to share this story with you the same CEO, interestingly, that I spoke to on a Friday, he wanted me in New York on a Monday, I worked for them for actually a couple ofyears. And at one point, early on, after an executive team meeting in New York for that company, he calls me into his office. And it was time for me to do a check in just kind of how are things going. And I happen to say, you know, let's pause for a moment. And, and let me just know, any feedback you have, it can be the largest thing could be the smallest thing. You know, just let me know and feel always feel free to tell me what you want. And he says, Well, I do have one for you. And I like really wasn't looking for
(12:12:18):
one. But he said, I want you to be the CMO. And I said, this may be a trick question, but I am the CMO. I'm not sure I'm understanding your question. He said, In that meeting,we were just in one of our guys who doesn't know anything about marketing, you know, raised a point to kind of challenge you, and you came back with a very gracious response and aluminum needed everyone. But he said, I want you to not be the consultant, I want you to be the CMO. And these folks need to understand that you know more on your pinky than they'll ever know in their whole life, about how to run the marketing of this company. And I just don't want you to ever feel like you have to dance around anything. As a
(12:13:12):
consultant, I want your full on leadership and marketing leadership in this company. So I tell that story to every new person. Because they're there, if they haven't consultedbefore, they'll experience this, even if they have consulted before it merits a reminder of it isn't just the skill and the experience that we bring in terms of the functions that we spent a lot of time in. It's the leadership that we bring to these businesses.
Greg Ballard (12:13:46):
And let's click on that for a second. Because I think a lot of our listeners may not recognize the difference, right? Because as a chief officer in an organization, you represent like the first chair for that discipline, marketing, sales, finance, engineering, whatever it is, you represent the first chair, because I don't know if you're familiar with the first chair leadership, secondary leadership, right, the first chair is the one looking out into the abyss and charting the path that everybody else is going to follow. And the CEO is pulling their team that, you know, an effective CEO is charting the path for the company. And he identifies or she identifies
(12:14:33):
their lieutenants, hey, I need you to run this lead this right. And that individual gets to really kind of operate as a first chair in that discipline. And that is a verydifferent mindset, and posture and position to a consultant. Because a consultant is they, here's my expertise, you have to make the decision, you have to decide, right. And so what I'm hearing in this story, which I think is a really great story, is, is being challenged to say listen, I don't want you to just be the advisor, I want you to be the fixed point in the room to establish our course.
Deborah (12:15:13):
Yes, yes. And that's really, that's really the role. And that's the difference, I think, between If outsiders and an a consulting firm, for example, each have their own, you know, purpose and mission in going in. So, I think those are really the, you know, sort of the main things that we say, to a new chief outsiders. And then the fourth that I've started adding, is really along the same lines, and in fact, I, I we have a fairly extensive onboarding program. And I was asked to do a video around the topic of leadership, you know, no boundaries to it, no outline for what it is. And I, I was very easy for me to just do a short video. And it really, it really is all about this, this
(12:16:04):
leadership piece, because there's a million people, I don't even know more than a million marketers out there. There's lots of people who develop programs, lots of people whodo this and that but what we need are the folks who understand how to look at data and information and a market know what to do and then has a leadership skills to take you know, certainly create the marketing or sales plan or both, but then has the leadership skills to inspire or the firm who engage the firm along the way, because you don't like go off and make a marketing plan, come back, you know, stick it in somebody's inbox and say, Here you go, you know, I'll have my X amount of money now, it is bringing people
(12:16:46):
along, getting their feedback. truly listening, listening is a very important leadership skill, inspiring others along the way, and leading the business forward. And, and thatis a key point that I that I make to new folks. And whenever someone, you know, I have 20, some fractional executives that I'm specifically responsible for, I'm responsible for helping, as my CEO says, helping us build a better company, but I also have responsibility for a Virginia domain, if you will, right. And I have a group of CFOs and CMOS there, and we do one on one to in etc. And and sometimes the conversation will be around around, you know, just explaining a scenario to me and looking to, you know, how can
(12:17:39):
I, you know, how can I shift this dialogue, or this isn't, you know, I don't feel like I'm quite broken through on this relationship. And it's inevitably about the leadershippiece. And we hire great leaders. But sometimes people just need to be reminded when you go in as a consultant in our business, part of what we bring is we're battle tested leaders, you know, we've led companies through, you know, some of the most difficult economic times, and we'll we'll continue to do so. And I can find lots of people to do marketing stuff, but very few tip of the spear is going to be the leaders who really know how to get in there, communicate, build relationships, inspire, and lead the business
(12:18:22):
forward to a better place.
Greg Ballard (12:18:25):
I love it, I and there's such a significant difference between the mindset in that, and I really want to draw that out. When I want to, let me see if I capture these four things. And you can calibrate me but number one, clear on mission, mission vision, number two, alignment with the CEO, and maybe even hyper alignment, right, not to over exaggerate it, but to be really aligned and in lockstep with the CEO, integrated into the company, so a team player, right, and really, belonging and becoming one of them. I think this was some language I would add, and then three, understanding that leadership, but I might reframe as first chair leadership, and really being that fixed
(12:19:08):
point for everyone to follow.
Deborah (12:19:09):
Yes, so the thing I would sort of build out a little bit on being in alignment, rock solid alignment, is alignment often come down, it doesn't mean everybody's agreeing all the time. In fact, alignment and you, you can explain this better like and alignment comes through a process of really teasing apart and having different points of view. And finding not the lowest common denominator, but find finding the best cop hospital space. So it isn't just about one of our executives coming in getting the download, and then going out like a toy soldier, you know, to go make it happen. It is about aligning on the CEOs vision, because it's their vision, it's their company, where
(12:19:53):
we see a better way, we're going to talk about that, we're going to give evidence of that we're going to make recommendations and suggestions and frame up what's going tohappen, you know, if if there is a point of disagreement, so alignment is not just about a rote follow through it is about those conversations. And that's also where, after you get past the proposal, and you're on the business, those weekly meetings, it's a continuous process of alignment. And I think I would add a fourth to my three, for them, to understand that we are going into essentially different cultures. And it's the respect for those cultures, and the understanding of those cultures, and being additive to
(12:20:39):
those cultures, versus deciding whether it's good in the middle or bad. And, and, and, and seeking to change it is about respecting that culture. And you know, if we havepoints to be made to make them to the CEO regarding culture, but it is an important alignment with culture versus coming into trying to break the culture. Really important point.
Greg Ballard (12:21:02):
Yeah, I remember, you know, one of the conversations that we had, we talked about this specifically, and you had you know, you're sharing that your team adopts the corporate values of all their clients. So when you go in, you're going to understand that these are the these are the values of the organization and as a leader in the organization, I will embrace and embody these while here, right. And that's an interesting capability. It is to be able to, you know that not everybody has the ability to say, Okay, over here, I'm going to be embracing, embodying and leading these core values. And over there, I'm going to do those. That's an adaptability, like, and in my work, and
(12:21:50):
my experience, it takes a true understanding of self. Yes, as an individual, by your own character in your core values in order to be able to operate on other core values.
Deborah (12:22:04):
Yeah, yeah, to and to respect them. And that's, that's why we do want to see a track record of having been in multiple companies successfully.
Greg Ballard (12:22:14):
Makes a tremendous amount of sense. So I'd like to ask you, Deb, as you lead, I think you said about 27, cmo, CSOs, what have you learned, kind of stepping out of the the role of being you knew the person going in the fractional seat chief officer, right. And now you're coordinating and supporting a team of these very high caliber, very talented, effective leaders.
Deborah (12:22:44):
First of all, it's, it's really an amazing and inspiring role. I also recognize it's not a normal role. To have, you know, this caliber of people and and imagine being I mean, we have a CMO of our company, who's really a principal of our company. And I used to say, what it's what's it like to be the CMO of all these CMOS, but it is, it is incredibly rewarding. And every one on one every regional meeting that we have, and certainly we go the national meetings, I'm, I'm just constantly amazed and humble. At the same time, you know, I'm responsible for leading and managing this group of people. And it's a different leadership challenge, even when I was at Marriott leading,
(12:23:37):
incredible group of BPS on my team. Um, and, and the only reason that anyone we're not at married is because they they made that choice was very strong team to carry thebusiness, you know, through the next. But this group is they were essentially me at all, all these other companies. And so, if you, if I were to come in and try to, like, manage them, you know, which I actually think is an overrated skill. I mean, I'm not in the management business, I'm going to leadership business. To the extent that I can lead this team that I can be an ear that they can listen to, where I can, they can walk me through a situation and I can ask them questions, you know, and then they figure it
(12:24:29):
out themselves. Or maybe I can give an example of one of my consulting engagements or prior employer. So it's a, it's a roll of, I mean, it's a serious role. It isn't that I'mjust I get a chance to have really fun conversations about marketing, you know, all day, every day, it is a challenging and serious role, to really, first of all, bring in the right people to be a part of everyone's journey getting started, and to then aid and support those that need help along the way. And then we are a different kind of company that recognizes we're not, we're not the always the right fit for people. And as our company evolves, and as individuals involved, we may have been the right fit for a lot of
(12:25:25):
time, and then we may no longer be the right fit. Again, these are accomplished individuals who may go on and do a variety of other things. But we are also I mean, our peopleare W two employees. So we're not a loose Federation. We are you have a culture, we want people who are dedicated to our mission, which means being dedicated to each of the CEOs, you know, missions that they that they work for. So, so me being able to be supportive, to be adaptive and to encourage them to do the same in the companies that they're in and to inspire and lead that is really the crux of the job.
Greg Ballard (12:26:11):
Yeah, and I can I can, I appreciate the nuance between management and leadership and to think about the caliber of people and not just the caliber of people, but the task that you've given them that you've requested of them, right. Go here into that person's house and serve them. You know, if you'd begin managing them Um, you're not really, you're not serving them in any particular way or their client, the client. So I have a curious question for you. I didn't prompt you on these. But first thing that comes to your mind, how do you define leadership?
Deborah (12:26:50):
I define it as it's really, you know, inspiration. And side by side. And the ability to not not just be in a position of power, but to be in a position to actually set a vision for the future and have people follow you there, which I think definitionally is done through through listening, and inspiration.
Greg Ballard (12:27:25):
I love it. Next question. Is it possible to lead without having technical chops?
Deborah (12:27:36):
Without having technical chops?
Greg Ballard (12:27:38):
Yes. Yeah. So for example, maybe engineering or coding, marketing, versus leading, so being brought in to lead a team of people on something when you don't have the technical background that everyone else in the room does?
Deborah (12:27:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. 100%. And, in fact, sometimes I wonder if, if you're a better leader when you don't? Because so often folks can start to that know so much, you know, that they begin to either do or begin to advise on what to do, when that's not the role?
Greg Ballard (12:28:22):
Right. Right. Love it. So, as we begin to wrap up a couple of other things, I wanted to kind of see if I can pull from you. Is there any practice or thing that you do to keep you on the bleeding edge and to being adaptive as a leader of leaders?
Deborah (12:28:42):
Well, first of all, I hang out with some of the brightest people in the world, every day, are having new challenges, and many days, they're sharing them with me. And I, we are a learning culture that that is part of that is a differentiated aspect of Chief outsiders, we learn from one another, we learned from outside, we've been reimburse folks, for going out and doing some type of development as long as they come back and share what they've learned within our company. So learning, learning is a big part of a big part of what we do. So so so I would say really listening and engaging, I do a lot of reading, you know, I do what, what most people do, I assume, you know, there's you've
(12:29:32):
got to, you've got to pick the right podcast conferences, you know, and books and so forth. But I'm, I'm pretty avid reader. And, but I would say the advantage I have over theaverage person is I'm just surrounded by about 130, you know, nationwide of our people who I would put up against anybody, I don't even think I could get the job at cheap outsiders. Now. These folks are so great. And our you know, whether it's whether it's technology, or data science, or in an engineering challenge, you know, name an industry or a problem and chances are we've focused on that. And I have all these folks to interact with, and and learn from, but certainly we have, you know, folks who will just by
(12:30:27):
their nature will say, Okay, I want to master AI, I'm just making that up. That's a that's a shiny thing. It's real. Yeah, but yeah, I was gonna push a lot. There's a lot alot going on, in there out there. And, and we now have some who I would, at this point consider to be experts. I have I sold into a business that's all about AI because part of my job is business development, really anywhere in the country, but obviously focusing on the northeast as well. And I and I knew exactly who to bring in because he was very focused on on AI and he could he could talk the talk. But interestingly, the the marketing challenge had nothing to do with AI. We'd had to do with growth, but he
(12:31:12):
happened to have that understanding this was a business focused on AI so he could come in and you know, do all the translation and get the business to where they wanted to getto now, I could pick many people because they have each decided to be masters of knowledge here. And do you know and one of the best ways is to do is to teach others. So they'll go learn, expose themselves to a lot of information, actually deploy it within the companies that they work with. And then they'll do learning sessions within chief outsiders, some on the national stage at a national meeting, I've got a regional meeting come up, I'm gonna pull in somebody. And so it's this constant regeneration of
(12:32:01):
learning. And what's next? And is it a shiny toy, it doesn't need to be deployed, and then learning the use case and bringing it back into for all of us, including myself tolearn now. The other side of the coin is in the business of leadership, you know, how do I stay on top of my game there, and that's a separate study for me. And it's been a lifelong one. Well, I shouldn't say like, long, but it feels like it's been a whole life. Since I started bash, probably, probably in the, in the early 90s. Leadership became a focus for me. And, and then I was fortunate enough to be able to get an executive coach when I was at Marriott, who, who really might Quest was leadership. And then I began
(12:32:50):
to focus with my teams on leadership. And it really is a constant for me to want to improve my leadership skills. And we want to be able to leverage leadership to help otherpeople accomplish what they want to accomplish, whether that's a CEO, a chief sales officer, chief marketing officer, and certainly within my own company. I'm, as I said, early on in this in this podcast, you can find many people to do many things. Leaders, I think are few and far between. So to me, that's where I really want the mastery.
Greg Ballard (12:33:27):
So I'm gonna summarize what I heard you say in some bullets, because you said a few things there. One, I think the first thing you talked about your surroundings, several times, you're surrounded by some really smart people are on the cutting edge of what's going on. Right. So it's not just smart people, but smart people that are actually in the work in the weeds doing the work. So you're exposed to what's going on on the front lines. And then you talked about reading and conferences and podcasts and staying exposed to thought leadership and what's going on in the discourse inside your industry and others. And then, and the last one, which personal passion of
(12:34:07):
mine is your own personal development, right? Clicking in early to say, leadership is going to be what gets me you to where I want to go. And it's going to take investmentover time, working with mentors, working with coaches, working with other folks so that you can hone your skills.
Deborah (12:34:26):
Yes, yes. Yes. I'm so glad you I'm so glad you asked that questions, because sometimes I have to remind myself, you know, because we all want to know so much about so many things and be good at so many things. And it never ends. I don't know when it ends I I'm not looking forward to, but to be to be reminded that if I'm remembered for anything. And surely we'll all be remembered for something. But being a great leader would be the headline. I hope we're that I aspire to.
Greg Ballard (12:34:58):
I love it. Deborah fell chief outsiders. I'm so excited to have you here. We could keep going. I mean, we've had long conversations many times. So I really just want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing what you've talked about today. If folks want to reach out to you or connect with you, what would be the best way for them to do so.
Deborah (12:35:18):
So they can find me on LinkedIn. Certainly I'm on the cheapest ciders website as well.
Greg Ballard (12:35:25):
All right. And we will put both of those links into the show notes. And so there we go. Deborah fell. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you
Hello, and welcome to the adaptive executive. I'm your host, Greg Ballard. And I am joined by a very special guest, Deborah fel managing partner with Chief outsiders. Deborah, glad to have you with us today.
Deborah (11:56:51):
Thank you. Great to be here.
Greg Ballard (11:56:54):
So you and I've, we've, we've connected many times over the last several years, we've built a really good relationship. And I've just finally got you here on the show, and so glad to have you. I'm really looking forward to our conversation. Today, could you tell us a little bit about your journey and what brought you to Chief outsiders?
Deborah (11:57:13):
Well, what brought me to Chief outside person in the first place was I have many years of being a marketing marketing leader. You know, starting off from the beginning, a long time ago, and at one point, I had stepped out of my role as senior vice president of brand marketing for Marriott International, which I I loved, never intended to stay there as many years as I had. And I stepped into a role as cmo for a company out of Sweden with global operating operations. And at a certain point, Chief, someone from Chief outsiders called me and they said, you know, we're kind of doing, you're kind of doing what we're doing? And how would you like to be part of an
(11:57:55):
organization that's full of Chief Marketing Officer, so your peers, our chief marketing officers, and it didn't take me long to say, Yes, let's go. And I haven't back that waseight or nine years ago. And it's just been great to be in the group. And now we've added Chief Sales officers so we can really address the growth engine, the growth needs of companies that we work with.
Greg Ballard (11:58:25):
Fantastic. Tell us a little bit about chief outsiders. Yeah, market you serve you knew and how you guys operate.
Deborah (11:58:32):
Chief outsiders, is a company that's really focused on helping CEOs of mid market, and I like to say 20 million to 200 million, just because it has a ring to it. But certainly smaller and larger, but that's on a bell curve, that's probably our focus, but CEOs of mid market companies, and this is the big important line, who want to grow, who are who are interested in growth, they may have growth challenges or want to open up new markets, or want to be more wildly successful than they are today versus their markets. And that's what the company is really about, how do we do that? We have about 130, fractional, and I used to have to explain that to everyone. Now, it seems to be
(11:59:18):
more more known, we can be interim or we can come we come in on a part time basis, but help to deliver full time results, big time results. For companies in the in the midmarket, whether they have a marketing challenge, and need a marketing plan. Or they may have a sales team that needs leadership, or even a sales leader who wants some help in putting together or improving the foundations that they that they have or supporting some of their people. And so we work with companies, whether they're a they could be private equity portfolio companies, we work with many, many private equity portfolio companies, they or they could be a family founded multi generational company, or a regular
(12:00:06):
company with a regular CEO, who's who's who's looking to grow.
Greg Ballard (12:00:11):
That's fantastic. So if I'm capturing this as your team can come in, kind of hit the ground running and operate as that Chief Marketing Officer, that Chief Sales Officer and be on the team fully immerse, supporting the CEO into realizing their vision.
Deborah (12:00:30):
Yes, absolutely. Now I'm managing partner today on the executive team of the company. So I'm not really Consulting at this point, except every time I talk to a CEO, I am consulting in some way that listening and asking questions. But But yes, you I can remember having having talking to a CEO on a Friday when I was consulting, and saying how soon do you know if we were to do this? How, how soon would you want me there? He said, can you be in New York on Monday? And I said yes. And I was there on Monday, and I was in New York every week for quite some time. So we we are instantly on. And what that means is we don't come come in and take you know, six months to to onboard. We come in and
(12:01:23):
look for low hanging fruit immediately and start working on the scope of work that we've discussed with the CEO and getting there in the first place. We tend to To sit on theexecutive team, in our clients, we are the CSO, or we are the CMO in the company, there is a team, we're leading it. And that's how we we operate for the most part.
Greg Ballard (12:01:49):
So that's. So I would say the stakes are high. Right? The stakes are high, you don't get a redo. Right. There's no Mulligan's at this
Deborah (12:01:59):
level. And the deliverables are clear,
Greg Ballard (12:02:04):
the deliverables are clear.
Deborah (12:02:05):
Well, I'd like to say in fact, one of my cmo says, We're not furniture, we don't just come and sit in the corner office, there's no corner offices for us. You know, we're there to accomplish, what needs to be accomplished, build the muscle inside the company, maybe even helping them hire people, but certainly mentoring and training their people so that they're better off. And they have a not not just a roadmap and a playbook, but they have things in process, they have scaled, they are scaling, they are at a different level in terms of their customer growth, whatever the objective was.
Greg Ballard (12:02:43):
So that's fantastic. And one of the things that I'd love you to dive into kind of speak a little bit to the caliber of the Chief Marketing Officer, the Chief Sales officers that are on your team. And in addition to that, if you could speak to how you've had to transition from being one of them to leading a group of them.
Deborah (12:03:02):
Yes, yes. So I'll tell you that we hire about 1% of the people that we interview. And so that gives you a sense that we talked to a number of people, but we're very selective. And and part of that selection process is mean, I'm not even talking to them. Unless they've had multiple successful stints as a CMO or a CSO, preferably in different industries. If they've been been spent their whole career in one industry, they're likely not going to be a chief outsiders, because we want someone who has really, certainly a perspective, beyond one industry and has been successful. I mean, how do you stay in one company for for 20 years, and then suddenly be going from company to
(12:03:52):
company to make a difference? So some of these things, but certainly, having led and driven this success in a few companies not just been in the room when it happened. And sowe have a very extensive process for interviewing, but you spoke to the caliber of people, it's really, you know, it's really the best of the best world class, marketing experts, world class sales leaders. And it's kind of interesting, because one of the, one of the, the new interviewing I don't know what the word is to use approaches, I guess that's the right word that I take is, I've actually said, let me give you the five reasons not to join cheap outsiders, because we want to make sure people know this is
(12:04:43):
different. This is not sitting in a corner office, if that's what they've been doing. This is rolling up the sleeves and getting things done. You know, have I written a pressrelease? Have I written a line of coffee? Have I actually pushed email campaigns out through Salesforce or HubSpot? You bet. But our primary role is really developing the insights and the strategy because if you don't have the right insights, and you don't have the right strategies, then all your execution will can tend to be random acts of marketing. So having these great world class leaders who know how to prioritize, create the right strategies, work within another organization within the culture of that
(12:05:25):
organization, and make sure that the right things are executed, and that it works. And that really takes the best of the best to to know how to do that, who also haveextraordinary people skills.
Greg Ballard (12:05:39):
Yeah, so this is where I get really kind of excited and interested like I really want to click on this because you're the folks on your team. They're operating in a fractional way. The the stakes are high there, there is no Mulligan's. The deliverables are clear. And they have consistently performed right there's a track record of performance. And these these folks, from what I gather these, your team goes into not just one company at a time, but may have multiple companies that they're supporting as a fractional unit, Chief Marketing Chief Sales Officer. So you know, the lens that we like to explore in this podcast is what helps managers to be exact adaptive, what helps
(12:06:24):
executives to be adaptive, and the folks on your team, like exemplify that they're, they're doing their role at level At any, all star level, in multiple different scenarios?And I'd be curious to say, what are some of the principles or the values of the approaches that you give people coming into chief outsiders, so they can operate in that adaptive way, shifting between different seats, different companies, and still really performing at a high level?
Deborah (12:06:56):
Yes. And let me just say this, and I'll answer your question. For the most part, the CEOs that they work with, we tell them, for example, Joe has three clients, your number, you're the third client, and then we have that whole discussion about them. What does that mean? That doesn't mean he's working the first you know, three hours of the day, that's not what that means. But they, they, they forget that they're not their full time person. Because our team has a way of, of working very effectively and very efficiently and just always being available. So if a CEO needs to get information or needs to run something by one of our folks at seven or eight o'clock on a Friday evening,
(12:07:40):
they're going to call a way to answer the phone. And that's called commitment. So to get back to your first question, you know, the, I think the first thing is that the, thefractional executives, and I'll just use that term are cmo and CFO, but the fractional executive needs to be, first of all interested, be more interested than interesting, we'd like to say, be interested in that CEO, and his or her business problem. Because when they call us, and when they sign on, for Chief outsiders, they're not doing that, because they want to just work with someone you know, to get a B, done, ABC done, they're doing it because they have a level of pain, they have a problem that they need
(12:08:25):
solved, or an urgent, strategic initiative that that needs to to be for advanced, and it's for whatever reason, it's not invent advancing. So our team needs to understand whatthose issues are, and be excited about and committed to working with this. So it's being clear on mission. That's number one. Now, the other part of the challenge is when you get in there, it's rarely exactly as described, even though we tend to talk to a few people, you know, you know, this in your own world, we did. Something was in the unsaid, if you will. And so we have to our guys have to kind of pivot and and, and sometimes even get with the CEO and say, Now these were the priorities, when we started, this is
(12:09:17):
what I see. And talk that through and say I think we should do more of this and less of this, or maybe this goes away, and this comes in altogether. And then that getsnegotiated can because it is all about alignment with the CEO, which is number two, is that they should be in rock solid with alignment with the CEO in about every way you can think of we even provide a checklist and news, you know, CMOs and CSOs sometimes look at me like, really, when we go through this, we have a checklist to even ask, like, how does the CEO like to communicate? If you prefer text? Do you prefer email? Okay, we want to check in with them, least 30 minutes a week, we can talk about anything the CEO
(12:10:00):
wants to talk about, we're probably going to want to give them a little bit of update, tell them what's ahead, maybe tell them what we learned. But it is about maintainingthat alignment. That's a continuous alignment, and relationship building, but with the CEO. And the third point is, and it's also not just the CEO, this is where I think, you know, we're a consulting firm by definition, but we really are a bunch of operational executives, who have reported, you know, to the C in the C suite to the CEO for the better part of our careers, and we have some who have been the CEO. But so we we understand that we understand things have to get done. So but, but but it is important for
(12:10:46):
everyone to remember that you're also working with perhaps your team, you may be working, you need to work with the CFO who's running, you know, customer service. We're, youknow, Have you have you spoken with, you know, the head engineer, or anyone who's running, manufacturing, really understanding and certainly HR to you know, the CHR o Do you understand what his or her opinion is of what's going on and what we need to work on. So it is building relationships, certainly with the CEO, being on point to the vision and the mission, or helping them define it, but also being integrated into the company as a whole As an outstanding member of the team, and I, I will just stop for a moment, I
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have to share this story with you the same CEO, interestingly, that I spoke to on a Friday, he wanted me in New York on a Monday, I worked for them for actually a couple ofyears. And at one point, early on, after an executive team meeting in New York for that company, he calls me into his office. And it was time for me to do a check in just kind of how are things going. And I happen to say, you know, let's pause for a moment. And, and let me just know, any feedback you have, it can be the largest thing could be the smallest thing. You know, just let me know and feel always feel free to tell me what you want. And he says, Well, I do have one for you. And I like really wasn't looking for
(12:12:18):
one. But he said, I want you to be the CMO. And I said, this may be a trick question, but I am the CMO. I'm not sure I'm understanding your question. He said, In that meeting,we were just in one of our guys who doesn't know anything about marketing, you know, raised a point to kind of challenge you, and you came back with a very gracious response and aluminum needed everyone. But he said, I want you to not be the consultant, I want you to be the CMO. And these folks need to understand that you know more on your pinky than they'll ever know in their whole life, about how to run the marketing of this company. And I just don't want you to ever feel like you have to dance around anything. As a
(12:13:12):
consultant, I want your full on leadership and marketing leadership in this company. So I tell that story to every new person. Because they're there, if they haven't consultedbefore, they'll experience this, even if they have consulted before it merits a reminder of it isn't just the skill and the experience that we bring in terms of the functions that we spent a lot of time in. It's the leadership that we bring to these businesses.
Greg Ballard (12:13:46):
And let's click on that for a second. Because I think a lot of our listeners may not recognize the difference, right? Because as a chief officer in an organization, you represent like the first chair for that discipline, marketing, sales, finance, engineering, whatever it is, you represent the first chair, because I don't know if you're familiar with the first chair leadership, secondary leadership, right, the first chair is the one looking out into the abyss and charting the path that everybody else is going to follow. And the CEO is pulling their team that, you know, an effective CEO is charting the path for the company. And he identifies or she identifies
(12:14:33):
their lieutenants, hey, I need you to run this lead this right. And that individual gets to really kind of operate as a first chair in that discipline. And that is a verydifferent mindset, and posture and position to a consultant. Because a consultant is they, here's my expertise, you have to make the decision, you have to decide, right. And so what I'm hearing in this story, which I think is a really great story, is, is being challenged to say listen, I don't want you to just be the advisor, I want you to be the fixed point in the room to establish our course.
Deborah (12:15:13):
Yes, yes. And that's really, that's really the role. And that's the difference, I think, between If outsiders and an a consulting firm, for example, each have their own, you know, purpose and mission in going in. So, I think those are really the, you know, sort of the main things that we say, to a new chief outsiders. And then the fourth that I've started adding, is really along the same lines, and in fact, I, I we have a fairly extensive onboarding program. And I was asked to do a video around the topic of leadership, you know, no boundaries to it, no outline for what it is. And I, I was very easy for me to just do a short video. And it really, it really is all about this, this
(12:16:04):
leadership piece, because there's a million people, I don't even know more than a million marketers out there. There's lots of people who develop programs, lots of people whodo this and that but what we need are the folks who understand how to look at data and information and a market know what to do and then has a leadership skills to take you know, certainly create the marketing or sales plan or both, but then has the leadership skills to inspire or the firm who engage the firm along the way, because you don't like go off and make a marketing plan, come back, you know, stick it in somebody's inbox and say, Here you go, you know, I'll have my X amount of money now, it is bringing people
(12:16:46):
along, getting their feedback. truly listening, listening is a very important leadership skill, inspiring others along the way, and leading the business forward. And, and thatis a key point that I that I make to new folks. And whenever someone, you know, I have 20, some fractional executives that I'm specifically responsible for, I'm responsible for helping, as my CEO says, helping us build a better company, but I also have responsibility for a Virginia domain, if you will, right. And I have a group of CFOs and CMOS there, and we do one on one to in etc. And and sometimes the conversation will be around around, you know, just explaining a scenario to me and looking to, you know, how can
(12:17:39):
I, you know, how can I shift this dialogue, or this isn't, you know, I don't feel like I'm quite broken through on this relationship. And it's inevitably about the leadershippiece. And we hire great leaders. But sometimes people just need to be reminded when you go in as a consultant in our business, part of what we bring is we're battle tested leaders, you know, we've led companies through, you know, some of the most difficult economic times, and we'll we'll continue to do so. And I can find lots of people to do marketing stuff, but very few tip of the spear is going to be the leaders who really know how to get in there, communicate, build relationships, inspire, and lead the business
(12:18:22):
forward to a better place.
Greg Ballard (12:18:25):
I love it, I and there's such a significant difference between the mindset in that, and I really want to draw that out. When I want to, let me see if I capture these four things. And you can calibrate me but number one, clear on mission, mission vision, number two, alignment with the CEO, and maybe even hyper alignment, right, not to over exaggerate it, but to be really aligned and in lockstep with the CEO, integrated into the company, so a team player, right, and really, belonging and becoming one of them. I think this was some language I would add, and then three, understanding that leadership, but I might reframe as first chair leadership, and really being that fixed
(12:19:08):
point for everyone to follow.
Deborah (12:19:09):
Yes, so the thing I would sort of build out a little bit on being in alignment, rock solid alignment, is alignment often come down, it doesn't mean everybody's agreeing all the time. In fact, alignment and you, you can explain this better like and alignment comes through a process of really teasing apart and having different points of view. And finding not the lowest common denominator, but find finding the best cop hospital space. So it isn't just about one of our executives coming in getting the download, and then going out like a toy soldier, you know, to go make it happen. It is about aligning on the CEOs vision, because it's their vision, it's their company, where
(12:19:53):
we see a better way, we're going to talk about that, we're going to give evidence of that we're going to make recommendations and suggestions and frame up what's going tohappen, you know, if if there is a point of disagreement, so alignment is not just about a rote follow through it is about those conversations. And that's also where, after you get past the proposal, and you're on the business, those weekly meetings, it's a continuous process of alignment. And I think I would add a fourth to my three, for them, to understand that we are going into essentially different cultures. And it's the respect for those cultures, and the understanding of those cultures, and being additive to
(12:20:39):
those cultures, versus deciding whether it's good in the middle or bad. And, and, and, and seeking to change it is about respecting that culture. And you know, if we havepoints to be made to make them to the CEO regarding culture, but it is an important alignment with culture versus coming into trying to break the culture. Really important point.
Greg Ballard (12:21:02):
Yeah, I remember, you know, one of the conversations that we had, we talked about this specifically, and you had you know, you're sharing that your team adopts the corporate values of all their clients. So when you go in, you're going to understand that these are the these are the values of the organization and as a leader in the organization, I will embrace and embody these while here, right. And that's an interesting capability. It is to be able to, you know that not everybody has the ability to say, Okay, over here, I'm going to be embracing, embodying and leading these core values. And over there, I'm going to do those. That's an adaptability, like, and in my work, and
(12:21:50):
my experience, it takes a true understanding of self. Yes, as an individual, by your own character in your core values in order to be able to operate on other core values.
Deborah (12:22:04):
Yeah, yeah, to and to respect them. And that's, that's why we do want to see a track record of having been in multiple companies successfully.
Greg Ballard (12:22:14):
Makes a tremendous amount of sense. So I'd like to ask you, Deb, as you lead, I think you said about 27, cmo, CSOs, what have you learned, kind of stepping out of the the role of being you knew the person going in the fractional seat chief officer, right. And now you're coordinating and supporting a team of these very high caliber, very talented, effective leaders.
Deborah (12:22:44):
First of all, it's, it's really an amazing and inspiring role. I also recognize it's not a normal role. To have, you know, this caliber of people and and imagine being I mean, we have a CMO of our company, who's really a principal of our company. And I used to say, what it's what's it like to be the CMO of all these CMOS, but it is, it is incredibly rewarding. And every one on one every regional meeting that we have, and certainly we go the national meetings, I'm, I'm just constantly amazed and humble. At the same time, you know, I'm responsible for leading and managing this group of people. And it's a different leadership challenge, even when I was at Marriott leading,
(12:23:37):
incredible group of BPS on my team. Um, and, and the only reason that anyone we're not at married is because they they made that choice was very strong team to carry thebusiness, you know, through the next. But this group is they were essentially me at all, all these other companies. And so, if you, if I were to come in and try to, like, manage them, you know, which I actually think is an overrated skill. I mean, I'm not in the management business, I'm going to leadership business. To the extent that I can lead this team that I can be an ear that they can listen to, where I can, they can walk me through a situation and I can ask them questions, you know, and then they figure it
(12:24:29):
out themselves. Or maybe I can give an example of one of my consulting engagements or prior employer. So it's a, it's a roll of, I mean, it's a serious role. It isn't that I'mjust I get a chance to have really fun conversations about marketing, you know, all day, every day, it is a challenging and serious role, to really, first of all, bring in the right people to be a part of everyone's journey getting started, and to then aid and support those that need help along the way. And then we are a different kind of company that recognizes we're not, we're not the always the right fit for people. And as our company evolves, and as individuals involved, we may have been the right fit for a lot of
(12:25:25):
time, and then we may no longer be the right fit. Again, these are accomplished individuals who may go on and do a variety of other things. But we are also I mean, our peopleare W two employees. So we're not a loose Federation. We are you have a culture, we want people who are dedicated to our mission, which means being dedicated to each of the CEOs, you know, missions that they that they work for. So, so me being able to be supportive, to be adaptive and to encourage them to do the same in the companies that they're in and to inspire and lead that is really the crux of the job.
Greg Ballard (12:26:11):
Yeah, and I can I can, I appreciate the nuance between management and leadership and to think about the caliber of people and not just the caliber of people, but the task that you've given them that you've requested of them, right. Go here into that person's house and serve them. You know, if you'd begin managing them Um, you're not really, you're not serving them in any particular way or their client, the client. So I have a curious question for you. I didn't prompt you on these. But first thing that comes to your mind, how do you define leadership?
Deborah (12:26:50):
I define it as it's really, you know, inspiration. And side by side. And the ability to not not just be in a position of power, but to be in a position to actually set a vision for the future and have people follow you there, which I think definitionally is done through through listening, and inspiration.
Greg Ballard (12:27:25):
I love it. Next question. Is it possible to lead without having technical chops?
Deborah (12:27:36):
Without having technical chops?
Greg Ballard (12:27:38):
Yes. Yeah. So for example, maybe engineering or coding, marketing, versus leading, so being brought in to lead a team of people on something when you don't have the technical background that everyone else in the room does?
Deborah (12:27:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I would say yes. 100%. And, in fact, sometimes I wonder if, if you're a better leader when you don't? Because so often folks can start to that know so much, you know, that they begin to either do or begin to advise on what to do, when that's not the role?
Greg Ballard (12:28:22):
Right. Right. Love it. So, as we begin to wrap up a couple of other things, I wanted to kind of see if I can pull from you. Is there any practice or thing that you do to keep you on the bleeding edge and to being adaptive as a leader of leaders?
Deborah (12:28:42):
Well, first of all, I hang out with some of the brightest people in the world, every day, are having new challenges, and many days, they're sharing them with me. And I, we are a learning culture that that is part of that is a differentiated aspect of Chief outsiders, we learn from one another, we learned from outside, we've been reimburse folks, for going out and doing some type of development as long as they come back and share what they've learned within our company. So learning, learning is a big part of a big part of what we do. So so so I would say really listening and engaging, I do a lot of reading, you know, I do what, what most people do, I assume, you know, there's you've
(12:29:32):
got to, you've got to pick the right podcast conferences, you know, and books and so forth. But I'm, I'm pretty avid reader. And, but I would say the advantage I have over theaverage person is I'm just surrounded by about 130, you know, nationwide of our people who I would put up against anybody, I don't even think I could get the job at cheap outsiders. Now. These folks are so great. And our you know, whether it's whether it's technology, or data science, or in an engineering challenge, you know, name an industry or a problem and chances are we've focused on that. And I have all these folks to interact with, and and learn from, but certainly we have, you know, folks who will just by
(12:30:27):
their nature will say, Okay, I want to master AI, I'm just making that up. That's a that's a shiny thing. It's real. Yeah, but yeah, I was gonna push a lot. There's a lot alot going on, in there out there. And, and we now have some who I would, at this point consider to be experts. I have I sold into a business that's all about AI because part of my job is business development, really anywhere in the country, but obviously focusing on the northeast as well. And I and I knew exactly who to bring in because he was very focused on on AI and he could he could talk the talk. But interestingly, the the marketing challenge had nothing to do with AI. We'd had to do with growth, but he
(12:31:12):
happened to have that understanding this was a business focused on AI so he could come in and you know, do all the translation and get the business to where they wanted to getto now, I could pick many people because they have each decided to be masters of knowledge here. And do you know and one of the best ways is to do is to teach others. So they'll go learn, expose themselves to a lot of information, actually deploy it within the companies that they work with. And then they'll do learning sessions within chief outsiders, some on the national stage at a national meeting, I've got a regional meeting come up, I'm gonna pull in somebody. And so it's this constant regeneration of
(12:32:01):
learning. And what's next? And is it a shiny toy, it doesn't need to be deployed, and then learning the use case and bringing it back into for all of us, including myself tolearn now. The other side of the coin is in the business of leadership, you know, how do I stay on top of my game there, and that's a separate study for me. And it's been a lifelong one. Well, I shouldn't say like, long, but it feels like it's been a whole life. Since I started bash, probably, probably in the, in the early 90s. Leadership became a focus for me. And, and then I was fortunate enough to be able to get an executive coach when I was at Marriott, who, who really might Quest was leadership. And then I began
(12:32:50):
to focus with my teams on leadership. And it really is a constant for me to want to improve my leadership skills. And we want to be able to leverage leadership to help otherpeople accomplish what they want to accomplish, whether that's a CEO, a chief sales officer, chief marketing officer, and certainly within my own company. I'm, as I said, early on in this in this podcast, you can find many people to do many things. Leaders, I think are few and far between. So to me, that's where I really want the mastery.
Greg Ballard (12:33:27):
So I'm gonna summarize what I heard you say in some bullets, because you said a few things there. One, I think the first thing you talked about your surroundings, several times, you're surrounded by some really smart people are on the cutting edge of what's going on. Right. So it's not just smart people, but smart people that are actually in the work in the weeds doing the work. So you're exposed to what's going on on the front lines. And then you talked about reading and conferences and podcasts and staying exposed to thought leadership and what's going on in the discourse inside your industry and others. And then, and the last one, which personal passion of
(12:34:07):
mine is your own personal development, right? Clicking in early to say, leadership is going to be what gets me you to where I want to go. And it's going to take investmentover time, working with mentors, working with coaches, working with other folks so that you can hone your skills.
Deborah (12:34:26):
Yes, yes. Yes. I'm so glad you I'm so glad you asked that questions, because sometimes I have to remind myself, you know, because we all want to know so much about so many things and be good at so many things. And it never ends. I don't know when it ends I I'm not looking forward to, but to be to be reminded that if I'm remembered for anything. And surely we'll all be remembered for something. But being a great leader would be the headline. I hope we're that I aspire to.
Greg Ballard (12:34:58):
I love it. Deborah fell chief outsiders. I'm so excited to have you here. We could keep going. I mean, we've had long conversations many times. So I really just want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing what you've talked about today. If folks want to reach out to you or connect with you, what would be the best way for them to do so.
Deborah (12:35:18):
So they can find me on LinkedIn. Certainly I'm on the cheapest ciders website as well.
Greg Ballard (12:35:25):
All right. And we will put both of those links into the show notes. And so there we go. Deborah fell. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you
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