April 25, 2024 • 48 mins
Ever pondered taking a leap from a well-worn career path to the thrill of chasing a dream? That's precisely what Adam Rowland did, trading his corporate strategist hat for the intricate, frame-by-frame world of stop-motion animation. His narrative is not just a tale of career metamorphosis but a testament to the grit and artistry required to thrive in a realm where patience is paramount and every tiny movement matters.
He opens up about the balancing act of following a passion while navigating the unpredictability of freelance life, underscoring the importance of skill, strategy, and a bit of audacity. Adam's insights offer a blueprint for those yearning to switch gears.
This episode isn't just about Adam's personal odyssey; it's an ode to the magic of stop-motion animation. As we close, Adam leaves us with a peek behind the curtain of this captivating art form.
Check out Adams work at here. Connect with Adam via LinkedIn or at his studio Awkward Animations.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
If you do want to do something different, save up
some money, because it's noteasy when you start out.
I went from a global corporaterole to try and infiltrate the
creative scene in New Zealandand be somebody, and I was
nobody.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
What a guy.
This is really quite aninspiring story.
One of the motivations for meon the podcast is to interview
people who've made some quitedramatic changes to their lives.
Adam is a living example ofthat.
He was a commercial strategyguy and these days is an
award-winning director, producerof stop-motion content creation
(00:40):
.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Go do something that you absolutely love, but
practice and practice, andpractice and practice until
you're really really good,because no one will care if
you're not that good at it.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
You might love it, that's great, but if I wasn't
very good at stop motion,nobody's going to employ me I
love that and I I think you'reright to talk about it's not
just passion and hobby, but youhave to be really good at it
because that's what will makeyou a living out of it and be
successful.
But to get to that point youhave to start and you have to be
able to just get underway andget practising and improving.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just don't be afraid of making change when the
going's good, and also listen toyour gut and your heart more
than maybe common sensesometimes, and take a risk,
because what's the worst thatcan happen if you fail?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
(01:47):
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
.
My guest today is Adam Rowland,and what a guy.
This is really quite aninspiring story.
One of the motivations for me onthe podcast is to interview
people who've made some quitedramatic changes to their lives,
particularly their professionallives, and Adam is a living
(02:13):
example of that.
He was a commercial strategyguy with some really big brands
the likes of Icebreaker, asics,polo, ralph Lauren, et cetera
very successful, very seniorroles around the world in these
corporate roles, and these daysis an award-winning director,
producer of stop motion contentcreation.
He's a puppet creator.
He's into claymation, animaticcreation, music videos, you name
it.
What a change, adam.
(02:35):
Welcome to the podcast.
Hello, greg, it's good to hearthat out loud as well.
It's so cool to have you.
And look, just just thinkingabout this podcast today.
I just had so many times whereI had this sort of low level
excitement around what we couldtalk about today, because I
don't really know anything aboutthe world of claymation and
(02:56):
animatic design etc.
So I guess I'm keen to startwith where I typically start,
which is a little bit of anorigin story about you.
Before you sort of got intothis world, were you the type of
kid that grew up alwaysinterested in this type of thing
.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
There's so many films you can reference, like jason
and the argonauts was probablythe skeleton scenes, probably
one of those ones that you justeveryone remembers right,
because it was so magical at thetime.
Yeah, I mean, that's king kong.
There's all sorts of films Icould probably reference.
Was I particularly clear at thetime when I was a kid that that
was stop motion?
No, because someone was tryingto trick me to think it was real
(03:31):
, so I probably hadn't reallyworked it out until a lot later.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
And what is stop motion For those people who and
I would imagine the bulk ofpeople listening will not really
know what stop motion is and,as I said to you offline, I will
include a link to some videocontent in the show notes for
people to be able to watchAdam's work when they're
finished listening to thispodcast.
But yeah, what is stop motion?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
There's so many ways you could explain it, but the
simplest way to explain it isyou move stuff that can't move,
so you take a photograph, youthen move the item and then take
another photograph and then allthose photographs linked
together creates the film amoving image.
So Wallace and Gromit is alwaysmy go-to reference for anything
to do with stop motion, andmost people have heard of that
or seen it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And was Wallace and Gromit an inspiration for you
when you were getting started?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Oh hey, so if you live in the UK, stop motion is
really big.
It's a huge scene.
It's probably, I'm going toguess, like 20-15% of the
overall advertising spend goesinto stop motion in the UK and
filmmaking.
So I lived in the south ofEngland and Bristol is kind of
the central hub for whereAardman are based.
You hear a lot of stories, yougrow up with the merchandise.
(04:39):
So yeah, it's pretty big in theUK but obviously in New Zealand
it's hardly even noticeable.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But you then had a, you know, you kind of kicked off
your working life intocorporate roles and you've had a
lot of time in and aroundstrategy roles with some big
brands, mostly in and around theworld of apparel and brands
like, I guess, apparel andfootwear, because you have
brands like Essex Icebreaker,Essex, Asics, Ralph Lauren big
brands.
How did you get involved andinterested in areas like that in
the corporate strategy area?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
How does anyone get involved in anything when you're
my age?
I wasn't very academic, so atschool I wasn't the best.
I did all right in maths and Idid all right in art and we'll
come to it.
But later on in life I realizedthat creativity and maths go
hand in hand.
So if you're creative or youhave a creative brain, it's very
easy for you to spot trends andpatterns in numbers.
(05:33):
So I found a real affinity withnumbers for the first half of
my life.
So up until now, I guess, andlooking back on it, I made the
switch into stock motion, whichis obviously like hugely
creative.
But looking back I realizedthat I was always able to spot
patterns and see things thatother people couldn't see
because I had this brain thatwas able to interpret the
(05:56):
information differently.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It's interesting because I know with mathematics
there's a lot of writing aroundmathematics, particularly things
like calculus, where there is alot of writing around
mathematics, particularly thingslike calculus, where there is a
sense of mathematicallydefining beauty.
Or if we look at the universeand the way things are put
together in in nature, they aremathematically perfect in so
many ways.
So it doesn't surprise me thatthose two can live, you know,
(06:21):
nicely together, both the mathsand the art.
But it does feel rare thatsomebody would possess skills in
both those areas.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh hey, I keep pinching myself for where I've
landed now.
It's kind of crazy really,because if I'd have stayed at
Ralph Lauren, by now I'd be asenior vice president of a
department.
If I'd have stayed at ASICS,I'd be in a role that was
equivalent.
So each role that I've movedout of I've been on a really
good career path and I'veenacted the change for various
(06:50):
reasons, but just because I likechange and I moved from Ralph
to Essex that move my boss atRalph Lauren.
They did everything they couldto keep me and I just knew I
just had to move on and went toEssex.
I stayed there for a few years.
Honestly, looking back, Iprobably should have stayed for
a few more years, but again, Ijust knew I had to move on.
And one of the things that Ireally have enjoyed in my career
(07:12):
and I think I'm wavering fromyour question, but no, go with
it, let's run with it.
We're going to bounce all overthe place.
Cool, okay, good, good.
One of the things that I'venoticed is I worked in Hong Kong
for a year for Ralph Lauren andmet the guy quite a few times
and that was great fun.
And what I realized is thatwhen you're out of your home
country, you have to listen somuch more attentively to what
(07:35):
people are saying and speak somuch more clearly to be
understood that for me, thatpersonal development growth was
next level.
I loved every minute of that.
So when I went back to the UK,I just felt comfortable again
and I wanted to getuncomfortable.
So, moving to Essex and livingin Amsterdam, working for a
brand that was Japanese run, theNetherlands, with lots of Dutch
(07:58):
people and multicultural, itwas a very big shift and I've
lost my track.
But there we go.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think it's interesting because you talk
about change, yeah, and you talkabout desiring being
uncomfortable, and that'scounter to the way most people
like to think.
Like, most people sort of drivetheir lives towards comfort, so
it's almost everything they'redoing.
They're seeking comfort,whether it's the food they eat,
(08:24):
the couch they lie on.
Everything's about comfort andmaking life less risky and more
comfortable.
Why do you think you went theother way?
What's driving that?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, it's very therapeutic preparing for
something like that.
One of the reasons, I think, isI'm an Air Force kid and so I
was born in the south of the UKand if you don, if you don't
know an air force family theirdad or the mum gets posted every
two years and you're moving.
Posting means moving house,moving country, so we moved
every two years literally.
I went to 16 different schoolsin and around the uk, lived in
(08:57):
scotland and even in an airforce base in germany like
post-war control of that countryand each time you move, every
two years, you say goodbye toeverything you've got used to
and you make new friends and youhave a new bedroom and you put
your posters up.
It's just kind of you make alife where your parents have
moved you and you're not incontrol of that.
So I think a really big part ofmy life and my decision-making
(09:20):
and always moving when thegoing's good, has been linked
back to that childhood.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah.
So you're letting go just at atime where you're feeling
comfortable, where you'refeeling good, you've made
friends, you've put some rootsdown, and then you're getting a
sense of right, things are good.
It's time to move, it's time togo and do something different.
And so then you made the moveto Icebreaker.
So you came from the UK to NewZealand to do that role, or did
you do that role in the UK?
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Oh no, I was in Amsterdam working for ASICS
Again.
My career was doing really well.
Asics was on fire.
I went to Lapland on holiday tostay in the Ice Hotel and I
needed to buy some icebreakerbase layers.
I happened to look at thewebsite to pick up the gear.
I looked at the job section andthe perfect roles there just a
(10:06):
global head of planning and so Iapplied, spoke to Rob Fyfe and
a few others of the leadershipteam and ended up here six
months later.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's pretty cool.
So you're in New Zealand nowand, as we do this podcast, adam
is working out of a studiowhich looks like it might be in
a garage but it's one heck.
Yeah, it's in a double garagebut it's one heck of a studio
with all sorts of clayanimations in the background and
tools and cameras and all sortsof things.
So you're working forIcebreaker.
(10:35):
You've got this really coolcorporate role there and I know
a few of the Icebreaker peoplemyself.
We can talk about that offline.
We might ball listeners withthat now, but you're in this
role.
What possesses you to go andbecome a stop-motion content
creator?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
the basic part of the decision is the vf court or
icebreaker, and they moved theglobal head office to
switzerland.
So the leadership team therewere given a few choices and one
of the choices was redundancyright.
So the end was a natural endfor me, as in there was no
choice there.
There was a choice to go on andtake another.
(11:11):
I had a few options to go onand probably take some pretty
cool roles for some nice brands,but there's a series of about
five things that happened.
So number one is icebreaker isa very, very good brand to work
for.
They are purpose-led, so theydo great stuff for the planet.
As you know, they are great interms of people, so I was
(11:32):
playing touch rugby twice a weekwith half the office, from CEO
down to every level, and they'regood for profit, so they're
successful.
So what a perfect brand to workfor.
I was getting quite picky, andso the other, the brands that
were led in front of me afterIcebreaker.
They were okay, they lived upto that, but they were more
shareholder listed brands thanpurpose led, if that makes sense
(11:54):
.
So it was going to be a toughchoice to go and work for
someone else.
That's number one.
Number two since I've moved toNew Zealand, I stopped watching
TV in the evenings and I juststarted practicing stop motion
whilst I was doing my globalcorporate role.
So in the evenings I'd say tomy partner, I'm going into the
garage and I sit there and playwith plasticine and do these fun
things.
And the year that I got maderedundant from Icebreaker from
(12:16):
VF Corp, I'd won a fewcompetitions.
I won like five grand off of aseven shot TV remake the ad
competition.
I did a pack and save ad and,by the way, they've never
contacted me to do more stufffor them.
I won the 48 hour filmcompetition as a solo entry,
beating 450 other teams inAuckland, and so I had these
(12:37):
certificates best director, bestfilm and I was doing this in
the evenings with very littletime on my hands, and I was
doing well, so I had a lot ofconfidence.
That was number two.
Number three is that I have atwo-year-old son at the time and
a daughter on the way, and Iwanted to provide them with real
life inspiration of somethingthat shows that they can do what
(12:58):
they want in life, because as achild I just followed
opportunity and that opportunityled me down a corporate path
and I'd like them to see thatactually there are many
different choices you can makein life.
Like I said, I could be an SVPright now, or you know, but some
crazy high level with a greathouse and a house full of Ralph
Lauren, beautiful things, andthat's not what I've ended up
(13:18):
with.
I'm sitting in a doublecarriage with the light blocks
out, playing with plasticine.
So that was the third piece.
I had some safety, so I hadsome savings backed up so that I
could give myself thisopportunity, and my advice to
anyone would be if you do wantto do something different, save
(13:39):
up some money, because it's noteasy when you start out.
I went from a global corporaterole to try and infiltrate the
creative scene in New Zealandand be somebody, and I was
nobody, and so there were manydifferent factors, and I guess
the last factor is, if it didn'twork, I could go back and just
go into corporate.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting advice there that
you're giving people around, youknow, having some sort of cash
runway.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat are going to be listening
to this who feel stuck in.
Whatever it is they're doing,they feel unfulfilled.
They might be in a corporaterole, they might be working for
a bank and they might be doingsomething that they feel is
paying the bills and the familyare happy because they're in a
(14:18):
nice house and life is good, butthey're feeling unsatisfied.
So you obviously got to a pointwhere you thought, okay, this
is kind of being presented to methe icebreaker role and the
opportunity I can take aredundancy.
Was there still a whole lot oftrepidation around making the
jump into doing this full-time,doing the stop-motion content
(14:42):
creation as a full-time gig?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Oh yeah, when I came home and said to my partner,
megan, there is a really nicecorporate role we can take, or
I'm just going to try and makesome stop-motion films and make
money from it.
And I bet that was met with justdelight and hats on the back.
Yeah, I guess you know I didn'tfinancially sit there and make
that decision at that point intime.
It was more of a romanticthought.
(15:06):
And then I started to validatethe decision as I was walking
through it.
So I sat down with my partnerand we kind of worked out what
it would look like and what thego no go point would be.
I, we kind of worked out whatit would look like and what the
go no-go point would be.
I just wanted to go for it and,like I said, in life I've just
made decisions that I felt wereright at the time rather than
worrying too much about some ofthe details.
So many reasons not to dothings, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, so true.
It's interesting.
I was sharing your video ofexamples of your work with my
wider family this morning andsaying check this out, I'm
interviewing Adam this morning.
He's a guy who you know was acorporate strategy guy who
decided to follow his passionand the things that he was
really good at and,interestingly, the person who
(15:49):
really jumped on the comment wasmy own father, who's nearing 80
now, and his comment was morepeople need to do that and the
earlier they can do that, thebetter.
You know, see, from somebodywho's lived probably most of his
life now.
So I think that's aninteresting thing.
It's, it's a and no doubt youoften reflect on the fact that
you have made this jump and arethere regrets or just you're
(16:12):
like, no, I'm so pleased I'vedone this it might depend on who
I'm talking to, but I meaninternally I struggle all the
time.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So, like throughout the year there's dips and peaks
in terms of cash flow yeah,where I'll start panicking like
where's the next job coming from?
Up until now I've had somereally good fortune and I've
worked hard for it.
So I don't know how to marketstock motion within New Zealand,
but I know how to networkgenerally, so I've been
networking a lot with a lot ofpeople.
For instance, I sent out myshowreel to every single agency
(16:42):
in New Zealand and it wasn'tthat great at the time but it's
improved and just nothing for atleast a year.
But planting those seeds meantthat a year later I landed some
really nice big TV campaigns fora German seed company, and it
was just completely random.
And then since then thosethings happen now and again.
(17:05):
But anyway, come back to yourquestion.
I think probably the bankbalance drives me to be more
concerned.
So as I see it coming down andI look ahead at what the cash
flow looks like, when I see itgetting to a point where I'm
getting nervous I need to earnmoney right to make a life and
yeah, so I start to panic then.
So in that panic mode, I willdo tons of marketing, tons of
(17:26):
networking, and then what tendsto happen is about four weeks
later, I've got so much work onthat, I have to start turning
stuff down.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's a good problem.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It's a great, great problem to have, though, yeah, I
absolutely can't complain.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'm not complaining here at all that ebb and flow
you don't have when you havethat employment.
Because they often say and I'veused this phrase here on the
podcast before that in life youneed to impress your
eight-year-old self and your80-year-old self, and you are
one of those guys who I feel isimpressing his eight-year-old
self, and when you get to 80,you can look back and go yeah,
(18:02):
well done, adam.
You didn't take the safe path.
You didn't just do thecorporate thing and earn the big
money and have your wardrobefilled with your company's
products.
You actually got out there andmade your own way and did your
own thing in an area that you'repassionate at and also really
good at, and you know.
Hats off to you for doing that,because that's very hard.
(18:24):
So there'll be people out therewho are thinking, ah, if only I
could do this.
Do you think that's an excusethat people put in front of
themselves, or is it generallythere's good reasons not to do
it?
What's your sort of view onthat?
Do we make excuses around thissort?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
of stuff?
I think that the most logicalway I can answer that question
is when I was a child growinginto an adult and a teenager
growing up to a young adult.
You are faced with choices infront of you.
You don't sit there and think,oh, I want to be this, because
life just doesn't work like that.
You end up going for you Ididn't do university.
You don't sit there and think,oh, I want to be this, because
life just doesn't work like that.
You end up going for your Ididn't do university.
(18:59):
But you end up going foreducation thinking, oh, you have
lots of choices when you leaveand you might have an idea of
what you want to do.
But you tend to fall intosomething and people that fall
into my world of merchandiseplanning with an apparel nobody
wants to do that when they'regrowing up.
But then you become good at it,perhaps, and you start to enjoy
the reputation that you have.
For me, I think the main thingfor me is that I've really
(19:21):
enjoyed my career and workingfor nice people, but I've also
found a hobby that I really,really, really, really like.
I'm so passionate about stopmotion.
If I didn't have this hobby,I'd still be in my corporate
career.
So if I was going to adviseanyone, if they're feeling stuck
in what they're doing, go anddo something that you absolutely
(19:43):
love, but practice and practice, and practice and practice
until you're really really good,because no one will care if
you're not that good at it.
You might love it, that's great.
But if I wasn't very good atstop motion, nobody's going to
employ me.
So I just put my heart and soulinto this and there's so much
passion, like every time when Iwalk from the house into my
double garage.
I'm in my world and this worldis just pure love and passion to
(20:05):
me, and when I heard youtalking about the change and the
fact my eight-year-old selfwill be happy, I can almost feel
myself welling up.
It's an emotional thing.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I love that and I think you're right to talk about
.
It's not just passion and hobby, but you have to be really good
at it because that's what willmake you, you know, a living out
of it and be successful.
But to get to that point, youhave to start and you have to be
able to just, you know, getunderway and get and get
practicing and improving.
Yeah, interestingly, you talkedabout reputation.
(20:35):
So did have, or do you stillhave, any issues of almost an
identity crisis.
So I'm Adam Rowland and I'm acorporate strategy guy to well.
Actually, I know you stillcould go back and do that, but
now I'm a stop motion guy.
How does that affect yourpsyche?
Just that identity piece.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I like to exercise that side of my brain because
I've been doing it for 25 yearsand, as such, people contact me
and I do work on the side forabout one or two days a month to
keep that brain, that side ofme, exercised because I love it.
So I do some consultancy and Ididn't choose to.
It just kind of worked out thatway and I was worried about my
(21:18):
bank balance.
So all sorts of things happenedthat made that happen.
Yeah, some connections atIcebreaker and some other people
just said, hey, now you'redoing your own thing, would you
mind coming and do some stufffor us?
So that actually helped mypsyche a lot, because I think if
I wasn't doing that and I wasjust sitting here trying to
chase a stop-motion world thatisn't quite adding up
financially, then I think thatwould affect my psyche more.
(21:39):
I think cash flow is one of thebiggest things that makes me
comfortable or uncomfortable,regardless of yeah, yeah, it
seems to be a measure on our notjust our success, but our
levels of anxiety, perhaps.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I'm keen for you to help us understand what a
week in the studio looks likefor you in the workshop.
So what do you do?
You work with puppets, you workwith plasticine, et cetera.
So take us through the kind ofyou know, some examples of some
of the cool stuff you've done.
As I said, I'll include a linkthrough to your videos, but,
(22:17):
yeah, take us through a littlebit of what it looks like in the
workshop.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Being a stop motion animator, producer of films as a
solo artist means you actuallyneed to be an expert in about 14
different fields.
So pre-production, which is setbuilding, prop building, stage
building, getting the lightingready and everything else,
that's normally about two-thirdsof the project.
So a lot of that I'll eitheroutsource or do myself and like
(22:42):
the stage that you can seebehind me, greg is all handmade
by me and everything's largelybuilt in-house, because I'll
just charge that money my dayright now.
Stop motion animating itself isobviously the real magic, but
all of that is a lot of planningin advance, including being a
DOP director of photography,having to learn how a camera
works, lens options I mean I'mstill mind-blowing to me, but I
(23:05):
get through it Lighting,storyboarding, building an
animatic.
So in stop motion, if I'mworking with a client, you don't
do any editing at the end.
All the editing is done upfront.
So I'll agree, frame by frame,exactly how it's going to flow
to within reason and the clientwill sign that off, and then
that's what I'll execute.
So let's just rewind to answeryour question.
So a one minute segment of filmat 24 frames per second is 1440
(23:31):
frames, well, which you tend toshoot on two.
So half of those frames 720 or740 frames are single photos
that I'll sequence out.
So yeah, it's a lot of planning.
Sometimes if it's claymation, alot of plasticine management
and keeping it clean, keepingthe air clean and working out
(23:52):
what's going to happen next.
There's a lot of detail.
I mean I don't know where tostart.
Really, the fun part herehere's the fun part.
The fun part is live videoreferences.
So whenever you're animating aperformance, specifically a
character performance, I willvideo myself doing that activity
and then I'll use that as areference.
(24:12):
So I have to be an actor aswell, a physical actor as well.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
And we will see in the video that we share in the
show notes around you engagingwith a figure and getting close
and coming up and looking at it.
It's actually pretty impressivebecause even to do that, I
don't even know how you do that,because you're in real time and
obviously the animated figureis having to be, you know stop.
You do that because you're inreal time and obviously the
animated figure is having to be,you know stop motion.
So that's being done in adifferent way, very, very clever
there's a guy in Canada calledKevin Parry.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
He's one of the most famous ex-Lyca stop motion
artists that just started tocreate a name for himself online
creating content.
He run a series of.
In the year before I was Imoved into stop motion, he ran a
series of.
In the year before I moved intostop motion, he ran a series of
challenges every month on videomagic and stop motion, and so I
used to answer all of hischallenges.
Part of stop motion magic iscreating layers, and one of
(25:08):
those layers can be live filmblended in with something that
you animated, and I particularlylike doing that sort of stuff.
That's a lot of fun.
I'm trying to trick people.
It's kind of just.
That's fun in itself, rightit's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And how do you go about making the plasticine
characters?
You're making those yourself.
Yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I can't show you.
So I'm making lots ofplasticine characters and I use
a combination of all sorts ofingredients, mostly plasticine.
But in order for it to behavewell, you blend it in with
things like beeswax and then Iput it through a pasta roller, a
spaghetti machine, to blend thecolors.
There's a lot of managementwhen it comes to dealing with
(25:49):
plasticine.
One of the coolest things youcan do as an animator is do
something called asculpt-through animation.
So you have a character like awallace and gromit type
character.
You are cutting the mouth openeach time, reshaping the next
mouth shape to represent thephenome or the sound that you're
trying to to speaking, get themouth to imitate what the words
(26:10):
are doing.
That sculpt through process isjust so much fun, so much fun
and you'll see listeners.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You will see in the video there's a character who is
talking and actually talkingabout the jaw being taken off,
and then that character sneezesmidway through their
conversation and I use, you know, air quotes.
It's accidental the sneeze, andyet obviously you've scripted
that so beautifully in the wayit's done.
It's incredibly clever.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I was a bit naughty when I did the Aardman course.
There's a lot of copyright laws, obviously, in this world, and
so when I did the Aardman course, they have lots of prescriptive
videos of Pete Lord, the guywho founded Aardman, doing some
lessons and talking to you aboutwhat the right things to do and
what not to do.
So rather than take thecoursework that I was told to do
(26:58):
and what not to do, so, ratherthan take the coursework that I
was told to do, I just took hisvideos, edited them together to
make a bit of a mockery, butalmost like a love letter to
Aardman, and then, yeah, I putthat coffin on purpose because
it's it's nice in stop motionwhen something happens that's
unexpected rather than somethingthat's fully scripted and you
kind of know where it's going.
So, yeah, there's so much tolearn in this world.
Literally, I spent five yearsprobably getting to 30% of the
(27:19):
knowledge of all these differentskills to make this project
work.
I'd say I'm probably halfway onmy journey to being relatively
good because there's so much tolearn.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
What is the hardest part of the creative process in
what you do?
What would be the mostchallenging thing to do
creatively In the stop motion?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
world, I would say that anything is possible.
So finding something originalis probably the hardest part.
It's easy to copy otherpeople's ideas and there's no
such thing as an original idea,right?
So trying to find somethingthat's original is normally a
mishmash of different ideascoming together, which I'm
generally quite good at.
So I'd say the hardest part isbeing creatively original.
(28:03):
What I do have and you can seebehind me, which is top secret
at the moment is a client that'sasked me to do something.
We've come up with somethingoriginal and that's going to get
released in about three monthstime across the whole of Asia,
so or the APAC region.
So this, this is pretty cool.
This is original.
This took a few months to kindof come up with the idea, but
sometimes things also just land.
(28:23):
Greg, the most successful stuffthat I've put on social media,
like that facial placement thingyou just talked about and
referenced they took a few weeksand there's so much fun to make
and because there's so much fun, you get on a roll, get in a
rhythm and the output isgenerally way more interesting
than anything you could createfor any brand, because brands
tend to put limitations on yourcreativity or they have their
(28:45):
own idea, the big brands areprobably easier to work with
than small brands.
If that makes sense, I'llprobably stay away from any
clients in the future that havevery low budgets, because they
tend to have really highexpectations for that low budget
, because it's so the brand'sturning quite precious for them.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah is it more challenging in stop motion
because digital animation isgetting so good?
Is it making it morechallenging?
Or, in a sense, is there moreof a renaissance for things like
stop motion because it is acraft and it is seen as I don't
know, somewhat cooler than justdigital animation?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I think the latter.
So there's so much cool stuffhappening in stop motion.
So when I started out and thiswas only 2016, so only eight
years ago when I started outthere were a few references
online that were really reallygood for stop motion.
There's obviously other films,like the Wallace and Blomit
stuff and Leica, but then in thelast eight years there's now so
(29:45):
much more happening in thisworld.
It's a very small world andI'll tell you about some of the
people I've met here in NewZealand as well.
It's a very small world and yetit's having a really big online
presence as well.
It's a very small world and yetit's having a really big online
presence.
So there's a lot of people outthere that are learning the
craft and getting good at it,because I think it's because
(30:07):
once you start, there's no goingback.
It's really hard to just puteverything down and go.
I'm not going to do thatanymore, especially when you
created something.
Let's just say that people havefound viral online.
So Netflix has been investingheavily into stop motion.
So the Toros Pinocchio, whichis on Netflix, that took 15
years to make, and recentlythey've also done the House and
Wendell and Wilds.
There's loads of stuff onNetflix happening in stop motion
, which is also increasing itspopularity.
(30:30):
I constantly just think and thisis one of my worries that you
asked me about earlier Am I justin a world that's about to end
and I've got excited too late inlife and too late in the market
because CGI is going to comeand just take it all over and AI
?
I really don't think so.
I think stop motion has got atleast I think it will outlive
(30:50):
quite a lot of the AI stuff inthe next 10 to 20 years because
it is so genuine.
For sure AI is going to find away to imitate it.
Yeah, I turned down a gig lastyear because I didn't have the
time to do it and someone elsein Auckland picked it up and
they put it out there and itlooks like stop motion.
But it wasn't.
(31:10):
And I was like who's this otherperson doing stop motion?
Because at the moment I'm theonly one doing commercial
character animation and it turnsout it was just some really
clever kids in a studio that hadthe tools to do it on a CGI
level and it looked great.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It's interesting because I had a conversation
with Rob Vickery, who's aventure capitalist, and I've
referenced this example a coupleof times now.
He is a venture capitalist butinvests into creative industries
, gaming studios, etc.
And he said that he believesthat the human eye and almost
soul can detect an AI drivencreation versus something that
(31:52):
was created by a human in aworkshop, and that we prefer,
yeah, the latter, we prefer thehuman created story.
So, yes, we are living in aworld of ai and tech and digital
animation.
It's just getting amazing.
But the craft and the craftsmanworking in the workshop there's
something about those that wejust we we resonate with, we
(32:13):
love, we feel this deeperconnection with.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
So part of my job is to try andmake the stop motion look as
perfect as possible, but Ireally love it when it doesn't
look perfect, exactly Because ittends to have a feeling to it
and a uniqueness that you justcan't get anywhere else.
So let's say there are 100 stopmotion artists around the world
.
They'll all ask to do the sametask.
(32:39):
Not one of them will produce.
None of the output will lookthe same, and I think that in
itself is really nice.
I actually met Rob.
He was giving away plasticinebecause he closed down his store
in Devonport and I raced downthere.
But I managed to chat to himfor 10 minutes.
But yeah, he's just down theroad, or was.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Small, small world.
So, in terms of you know theworld, that this is opening up
for you and you touched on,maybe, people that you've met
has it created a completelydifferent circle of people that
you hang out with and that youget to meet these days?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, so a hundred percent.
The creatives that were inIcebreaker, or some of them that
came and went in Icebreaker,I've stayed in touch with and,
as part of that, some of them dovoice acting for me.
You know people all lend a hand.
It's really really nice.
There's a guy down the road Ithink his name's or his
company's called Justin GlassHouse.
(33:25):
I'll need to check that, but hedrops off materials for me when
I need them.
I met some guys that built thestate, the sets for Lord of the
Rings, that came and worked inthis garage.
We built a giant farmyard inhere.
Yeah, the list is endless.
There's a huge creativecommunity out there and I would
say that largely they've openedme with welcome arms and I can't
thank them enough for it.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
It's been really nice and I presume, given how much
you love what you do, that therehasn't been a time where you've
gone.
I think I need to give thisaway and go back to corporate
strategy.
Have you ever had that moment?
No, I'm picking.
You haven't, because of howmuch you love it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
It's just cashflow, craig.
If it comes down to it, I'llhave to, and sometimes I'll
apply for a role if it'sinteresting creatively as well.
Just to check my thoughtprocess, even when I'm in a job
in the corporate world, I'llprobably apply for one or two
jobs a year or network withpeople that might have the roles
to see if I'm in the rightplace still and whether there's
(34:23):
an opportunity to move on.
I do the same thing here and Ijust keep myself in check to
make sure that I'm stillrelevant in the marketplace,
because even moving from Europeto New Zealand has been tricky
in terms of, like, readjustingmy skill set for this, for this
environment.
So, yeah, there are times whenI tweak and I go okay, yeah, I
think I might need to go and geta job, but largely I won't give
(34:45):
this up.
If I can, I'll do everything Ican to keep this going, not
blindly, like if it just becomesa hobby in the future, then it
just becomes a hobby, but fornow it's becoming something else
, and what I'd really like to doand I'd like to come back on
this podcast in a year or so istalk to you in a year or so
about how I've managed to turnthis into a company and hire a
(35:06):
team and have a greater outputin terms of how much I can
generate, because stop motion'stime intensive, it doesn't
necessarily need to be expensive.
But if I do, how much I cangenerate Because stop motion's
time intensive, it doesn'tnecessarily need to be expensive
.
But if I do the math, I cangenerate about seven minutes
worth of stop motion a year Wow.
I did a TV commercial last yearwhich was a minute long and it
(35:28):
took six months Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That's insane.
Seven minutes of content takesyou a year.
So that's you working full timein this gig and you'll create
seven minutes of content.
That's with a team.
That's with a team and that'syou outsourcing.
So if you were to do longerformat production for the likes
of a Netflix or anotherproduction house, you would need
(35:50):
a bigger team or you would haveto take years to produce yeah,
either go and work on a biggerteam or hire the team.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
You'd need a bigger team for sure just to do all the
different roles.
So my time at the moment as asolo artist is distracted by.
There's no real value in mesitting here building a prop.
The value for me is indirecting and animating.
If it comes to a point where Ican hire a team of animators and
the output explodes, thenfantastic.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So could we see you build essentially a stop motion
studio.
That is something that NewZealand looks at and goes.
Look at what Adam has done here, Like he's built an industry
essentially from here.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That's the dream, right, that's the dream, yeah,
and you're well-placed.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Having corporate strategy is a skill to know how
to build this thing when itstarts to take off.
So what gets in the way of that?
Is it the clients?
Is it winning the work?
Is it capability of team aroundyou?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, I would say there's two main factors.
One is just I think the work isthere.
I think, based on the size ofthe industry in the UK and in
Europe and America, the work isthere because there's nothing
here at the moment.
So the opportunity to grab apercentage of that market and
build a business is 100% there.
There's no doubt in my mindabout that.
The cashflow and just buildingup the investment piece to make
(37:13):
that work is probably one of thebiggest boundaries.
And then the second is if Iwant to hire other stop motion
animators that can come in anddo this, hiring people to build
stages and props.
New Zealand's full of that, sothat's no problem.
There's loads of skill andtalent here.
All the post-production, noproblem, but the actual
animation itself there's verylittle.
So you probably just importthat talent from the UK.
(37:34):
So there's a studio down inChristchurch run by Anthony
Ellsworthy and they make Kiriand Lou.
And Kiri and Lou is a preschoolamazing show about two
dinosaurs.
I don't know if you've seen it,but it's been running for about
five seasons.
So Anthony is ex-Lyca and he'scome to New Zealand and they
(37:54):
make that show and they fund itfrom here, but they don't go
outside of that world.
They've chosen to make the TVshow.
They don't do commercials andbigger things.
So I guess that's the side ofthe market that's open for
opportunity.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, and how do you get inspired?
Like, what is it that you, thatyou listen to, that you you
watch, that you read, thatinspires you around this?
Is it things that are directlyadjacent to stop motion, or is
it, you know, other things likemusic and those sorts of things?
So how do you get a burst ofenergy and excitement to go and
get into the workshop?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
yeah, it's a great question.
I'd say there are definitelytimes when I sit here staring at
a screen and for zeroproductivity and I hate that.
I guess that's a creator'sissue, it's the.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Steven Pressfield.
I don't know if you've everread the book Turning Pro, and
Steven Pressfield is a writerthat talks about the creator's
sort of dilemma, where a creatorwill sit down and have nothing
and will actually seekdistraction.
They'll go to the fridge,they'll look for food, they'll
put some music on, they'll goand, you know, mow the lawn or
(38:59):
something, because they'rethey're actually not able to get
into the creative process andthat, presumably, is something
that you have as well as acreator yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
So to go back to the original question of how do I
get inspired, I'd say theeasiest thing to inspire someone
like me I don't know, I haven'tbroken apart how I operate is
to set me a challenge.
So I'll go and find thosechallenges, and that might be.
I did the Aardman course in theUK, which is an online course.
I did it for six months andevery week you get to speak to
(39:30):
hugely influential people in theindustry and then my output
from that was hugely inspired byall my experience within that.
So I think doing coursework andactually upskilling is probably
one of the biggest inspirationsfor me, because then I'll take
that new skill and blend it withsomething else that I can see
an opportunity for.
You know, just sitting herelooking around I'm not going to
(39:51):
inspire myself.
I need to find out.
I need to work with otherpeople and chat to them and then
say, hey, let's do that.
So and that happened thismorning just on text message
with a guy around the cornerthat I bumped into while taking
my kids for a walk he's reallygood at a specific skillset and
we just started to do somethingfor Christmas and he's got a 3d
printer.
So who knows, who knows?
The opportunities come from allsorts of angles.
(40:12):
I just try and hunt them downand I do a lot of proactive
networking.
So about three or four hours ofmy week is chatting to
creatives or people in differentroles within the industry,
either trying to take them for acoffee or trying to learn stuff
from them.
So, yeah, inspiration comesfrom other people 99% of the
(40:33):
time.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Your proactive networking.
Do you find that works?
Because there'll be people outthere that want to build their
own businesses and they canlearn from this particular
aspect of the conversation.
Do you find that productive?
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, hugely.
It's worked my entire life.
When I moved to New Zealand,the first thing I did is took a
few CEOs out for coffee thatweren't connected with what I
was doing, and I've builtrelationships with them over the
last six years and they're nowI probably, call them good
friends of mine.
So, yeah, I mean it's hugelyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
It's interesting.
Would you say that you areextroverted by nature or not?
Is networking something thatcomes easy to you?
I like to practice it.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Let's just say that I like to practice it to stay on
top of it.
Yes, I get incredibly nervouswith doing new things.
One of the things I'd say is Irun.
Have you heard of park run?
Yes, yeah, so I run a park runevery Saturday.
So I'm one of the run eventdirectors for the Western
Springs one, and you just go andstand up on a Saturday morning
when you just got out of bed,drag your kids there and I'll
(41:33):
stand and talk to 300 people andtalk to them about the day's
activities A huge, loud, boomingEnglish accent and just try and
make it as a great experiencefor them as possible.
One of the lessons I've alwayslearned in life is always make
sure that the people walk awayfrom you feeling good about
themselves or feeling good aboutthe experience.
So, yeah, the active networkingand practice keeps me on top of
(41:56):
being slightly extroverted.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And interestingly, the leverageif that's the right word that
you're able to get by justtalking to people and connecting
with other humans is it's quiteprofound.
We don't need to overthink this.
We just need to get out andhave coffee with people.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, yeah, hey, I'm a listener.
I've had coffees with peoplewhere people just talk at me and
ask me no questions, and I findthat sometimes quite
disappointing.
I love listening and learningand that's in my psyche.
So if I can listen and learnand find something new out in
that day that that's going tohelp me advance, then that's
(42:36):
exactly the behavior I'll do.
I've learned so many times thatthat's a positive process and
it's enhanced me in my life insome way or another that I now
just ask more questions than Ido and in terms of like trying
to share this is uncomfortablefor me because I'm talking about
me and I'm very you know it'sfun to to do, but I've never
(43:01):
really over analyzed everything.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, for me it's actually a super interesting
conversation with somebody doingsomething that is so cool and,
as I said before we started thepodcast, it's a shame we're not
doing a video production of ofthis podcast, because they would
get to see your workshop andperhaps we would upload some of
the video content to show it.
Is there something that youwould want people listening to
know that are contemplatingmaking a big change in their
(43:23):
career to do something thatthey've always had as a bit of a
passion or something they'vealways wanted to do?
So, aside from the cash flowand maybe making sure there's
some money there, is theresomething else that you would
want to share with them?
From the the cash flow andmaybe, you know, making sure
there's some some money there,is there something else that you
would want to share with themabout the switch, because you
have made quite the switch.
Corporate strategy and stopmotion creation are quite
(43:45):
distinct fields.
You know they're quitedifferent.
Is there something that youwould you would want to share
with them?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
oh, just don't be afraid of, yeah, making change
when the going's good, and alsolisten to your gut and your
heart more than maybe commonsense sometimes and take a risk,
because what's the worst thatcan happen if you fail?
Yeah, that's a really easything to say when you put
yourself in a position to beable to fail, but if you've got
(44:11):
so many other pressures in life,that's hard to enact, isn't it?
So it's really hard to takethat advice.
It's easy to give it but hardto understand from that person's
point of view how they couldactually enact on it.
I mean, I made the changewithout knowing it eight years
ago when I stopped watchingtelly and started practicing and
I wasn't very good.
So, yeah, I guess stick with itis another thing as well.
(44:34):
I definitely just push and pushfor something you enjoy and
don't necessarily listen topeople around you.
I mean, I was putting stuff outthere six years ago that now I
look back on it and I'm tryingto delete those videos.
I'm so embarrassed by them.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
But yeah, just stick with it and don't be afraid to
make change, especially when thegoing's good, and I've said it
several times, but I thinkthat's so key yeah, look, you
might have paused before yougave the answer, but I think the
answer you gave is absolutegold for people, because, yeah,
I think there's some real, thereis genuine gold there.
Like you need to be brave.
I think that's probably the keytrait be brave.
(45:10):
Life is not, you know, dressrehearsal.
You need to give this thing ashot and you need to keep
practicing.
You need to just start and ifyou are looking at doing a
creative endeavor, startcreating, even if the work is
not perfect.
But start.
And I'll close, I guess, with afinal question Is there
something that you believe inthat very few people do?
(45:34):
That's very counterculture andit's not to not to paint you as
a, as some sort of weirdo, butis there something that's a
belief that you hold, orsomething that you that you
quite strongly believe in, butactually it's not?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
it's not a commonly held belief from a corporate
world, we've got lots ofviewpoints in terms of how to
behave around other people.
I think there's loads.
There's like be nice, be fair,listen as much as you can,
because it's probably the bestskill in the world, right?
Speak up when it counts isprobably one of my favourites,
(46:08):
and I've been guilty of notspeaking up and I've watched
businesses go in the wrongdirection.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, yeah, I will give you one, one other final
question.
Having said that, that was thefinal one.
This is the.
This will be the genuine finalone.
Yeah, is there somebody thatyou think I should have on the
podcast, and if you can think ofwho that person might be, what
should I ask them?
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Who have I enjoyed speaking to the most, I'd say?
Or who's the most interesting?
Or might ask yourself.
I think there's a guy that I'mworking with right now who is x
like a head of puppets, head ofparents, that's.
Tell me about it and that's.
That's no easy feat becauselike is the best in the world in
terms of the stop motionindustry.
(46:50):
So I so I'm going to bestop-motion orientated.
To answer your question, there'sa really lovely guy he won't
mind me mentioning his namecalled John Craney, and he moved
back to New Zealand as part ofCOVID for his family and ended
up relinquishing the role atsome way or another eventually
from Leica because he had tomove back to New Zealand.
(47:11):
So I think it's veryinteresting.
I don't know if I'm evenallowed to say some of the stuff
that he's doing, so I'll lethim talk to you about that if
you do speak to him, but thisguy is phenomenal and he's
helping me, with the ex-Leicateam, build an amazing puppet at
the moment, and I'd love tohear what kind of things he has
to say about his life, becausehe's been on an incredible
(47:32):
journey.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
John, we're coming for you.
Adam said it was okay, so we'recoming for you.
Adam, it has been such a thrillto talk to you.
As I said when I was preparingfor this earlier today, I
actually I think theeight-year-old version of me got
quite excited by thisconversation and where we would
go.
So, look, you are doing suchamazing work and I want to thank
you for just some of the thingsyou've shared, because there
will be people, as I said, whoare listening, who think I've
(48:00):
always had this desire to go anddo whatever it is that they
want to go and do, and I need togo and do it, and just
listening to you, hopefully, isthe straw that breaks the
camel's back for them, and theydo go off and do it.
You're an inspiration.
Let's come back in a year'stime and do another podcast and
we'll talk about what you'vebeen able to create.
As I said before, I willinclude ways to not just see
(48:23):
your creative work, but alsoways that people can connect
with you, and I'll put thoseinto the show notes.
Adam, it has been an absolutepleasure, so thanks so much for
your time.
Thanks, frank.
If you do want to do something different, save up
some money, because it's noteasy when you start out.
I went from a global corporaterole to try and infiltrate the
creative scene in New Zealandand be somebody, and I was
nobody.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
What a guy.
This is really quite aninspiring story.
One of the motivations for meon the podcast is to interview
people who've made some quitedramatic changes to their lives.
Adam is a living example ofthat.
He was a commercial strategyguy and these days is an
award-winning director, producerof stop-motion content creation
(00:40):
.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Go do something that you absolutely love, but
practice and practice, andpractice and practice until
you're really really good,because no one will care if
you're not that good at it.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
You might love it, that's great, but if I wasn't
very good at stop motion,nobody's going to employ me I
love that and I I think you'reright to talk about it's not
just passion and hobby, but youhave to be really good at it
because that's what will makeyou a living out of it and be
successful.
But to get to that point youhave to start and you have to be
able to just get underway andget practising and improving.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Just don't be afraid of making change when the
going's good, and also listen toyour gut and your heart more
than maybe common sensesometimes, and take a risk,
because what's the worst thatcan happen if you fail?
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Yeah, hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
(01:47):
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
.
My guest today is Adam Rowland,and what a guy.
This is really quite aninspiring story.
One of the motivations for me onthe podcast is to interview
people who've made some quitedramatic changes to their lives,
particularly their professionallives, and Adam is a living
(02:13):
example of that.
He was a commercial strategyguy with some really big brands
the likes of Icebreaker, asics,polo, ralph Lauren, et cetera
very successful, very seniorroles around the world in these
corporate roles, and these daysis an award-winning director,
producer of stop motion contentcreation.
He's a puppet creator.
He's into claymation, animaticcreation, music videos, you name
it.
What a change, adam.
(02:35):
Welcome to the podcast.
Hello, greg, it's good to hearthat out loud as well.
It's so cool to have you.
And look, just just thinkingabout this podcast today.
I just had so many times whereI had this sort of low level
excitement around what we couldtalk about today, because I
don't really know anything aboutthe world of claymation and
(02:56):
animatic design etc.
So I guess I'm keen to startwith where I typically start,
which is a little bit of anorigin story about you.
Before you sort of got intothis world, were you the type of
kid that grew up alwaysinterested in this type of thing
.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
There's so many films you can reference, like jason
and the argonauts was probablythe skeleton scenes, probably
one of those ones that you justeveryone remembers right,
because it was so magical at thetime.
Yeah, I mean, that's king kong.
There's all sorts of films Icould probably reference.
Was I particularly clear at thetime when I was a kid that that
was stop motion?
No, because someone was tryingto trick me to think it was real
(03:31):
, so I probably hadn't reallyworked it out until a lot later.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
And what is stop motion For those people who and
I would imagine the bulk ofpeople listening will not really
know what stop motion is and,as I said to you offline, I will
include a link to some videocontent in the show notes for
people to be able to watchAdam's work when they're
finished listening to thispodcast.
But yeah, what is stop motion?
Speaker 1 (03:53):
There's so many ways you could explain it, but the
simplest way to explain it isyou move stuff that can't move,
so you take a photograph, youthen move the item and then take
another photograph and then allthose photographs linked
together creates the film amoving image.
So Wallace and Gromit is alwaysmy go-to reference for anything
to do with stop motion, andmost people have heard of that
or seen it.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
And was Wallace and Gromit an inspiration for you
when you were getting started?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Oh hey, so if you live in the UK, stop motion is
really big.
It's a huge scene.
It's probably, I'm going toguess, like 20-15% of the
overall advertising spend goesinto stop motion in the UK and
filmmaking.
So I lived in the south ofEngland and Bristol is kind of
the central hub for whereAardman are based.
You hear a lot of stories, yougrow up with the merchandise.
(04:39):
So yeah, it's pretty big in theUK but obviously in New Zealand
it's hardly even noticeable.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
But you then had a, you know, you kind of kicked off
your working life intocorporate roles and you've had a
lot of time in and aroundstrategy roles with some big
brands, mostly in and around theworld of apparel and brands
like, I guess, apparel andfootwear, because you have
brands like Essex Icebreaker,Essex, Asics, Ralph Lauren big
brands.
How did you get involved andinterested in areas like that in
the corporate strategy area?
Speaker 1 (05:11):
How does anyone get involved in anything when you're
my age?
I wasn't very academic, so atschool I wasn't the best.
I did all right in maths and Idid all right in art and we'll
come to it.
But later on in life I realizedthat creativity and maths go
hand in hand.
So if you're creative or youhave a creative brain, it's very
easy for you to spot trends andpatterns in numbers.
(05:33):
So I found a real affinity withnumbers for the first half of
my life.
So up until now, I guess, andlooking back on it, I made the
switch into stock motion, whichis obviously like hugely
creative.
But looking back I realizedthat I was always able to spot
patterns and see things thatother people couldn't see
because I had this brain thatwas able to interpret the
(05:56):
information differently.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
It's interesting because I know with mathematics
there's a lot of writing aroundmathematics, particularly things
like calculus, where there is alot of writing around
mathematics, particularly thingslike calculus, where there is a
sense of mathematicallydefining beauty.
Or if we look at the universeand the way things are put
together in in nature, they aremathematically perfect in so
many ways.
So it doesn't surprise me thatthose two can live, you know,
(06:21):
nicely together, both the mathsand the art.
But it does feel rare thatsomebody would possess skills in
both those areas.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
Oh hey, I keep pinching myself for where I've
landed now.
It's kind of crazy really,because if I'd have stayed at
Ralph Lauren, by now I'd be asenior vice president of a
department.
If I'd have stayed at ASICS,I'd be in a role that was
equivalent.
So each role that I've movedout of I've been on a really
good career path and I'veenacted the change for various
(06:50):
reasons, but just because I likechange and I moved from Ralph
to Essex that move my boss atRalph Lauren.
They did everything they couldto keep me and I just knew I
just had to move on and went toEssex.
I stayed there for a few years.
Honestly, looking back, Iprobably should have stayed for
a few more years, but again, Ijust knew I had to move on.
And one of the things that Ireally have enjoyed in my career
(07:12):
and I think I'm wavering fromyour question, but no, go with
it, let's run with it.
We're going to bounce all overthe place.
Cool, okay, good, good.
One of the things that I'venoticed is I worked in Hong Kong
for a year for Ralph Lauren andmet the guy quite a few times
and that was great fun.
And what I realized is thatwhen you're out of your home
country, you have to listen somuch more attentively to what
(07:35):
people are saying and speak somuch more clearly to be
understood that for me, thatpersonal development growth was
next level.
I loved every minute of that.
So when I went back to the UK,I just felt comfortable again
and I wanted to getuncomfortable.
So, moving to Essex and livingin Amsterdam, working for a
brand that was Japanese run, theNetherlands, with lots of Dutch
(07:58):
people and multicultural, itwas a very big shift and I've
lost my track.
But there we go.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
I think it's interesting because you talk
about change, yeah, and you talkabout desiring being
uncomfortable, and that'scounter to the way most people
like to think.
Like, most people sort of drivetheir lives towards comfort, so
it's almost everything they'redoing.
They're seeking comfort,whether it's the food they eat,
(08:24):
the couch they lie on.
Everything's about comfort andmaking life less risky and more
comfortable.
Why do you think you went theother way?
What's driving that?
Speaker 1 (08:33):
Yeah, it's very therapeutic preparing for
something like that.
One of the reasons, I think, isI'm an Air Force kid and so I
was born in the south of the UKand if you don, if you don't
know an air force family theirdad or the mum gets posted every
two years and you're moving.
Posting means moving house,moving country, so we moved
every two years literally.
I went to 16 different schoolsin and around the uk, lived in
(08:57):
scotland and even in an airforce base in germany like
post-war control of that countryand each time you move, every
two years, you say goodbye toeverything you've got used to
and you make new friends and youhave a new bedroom and you put
your posters up.
It's just kind of you make alife where your parents have
moved you and you're not incontrol of that.
So I think a really big part ofmy life and my decision-making
(09:20):
and always moving when thegoing's good, has been linked
back to that childhood.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah.
So you're letting go just at atime where you're feeling
comfortable, where you'refeeling good, you've made
friends, you've put some rootsdown, and then you're getting a
sense of right, things are good.
It's time to move, it's time togo and do something different.
And so then you made the moveto Icebreaker.
So you came from the UK to NewZealand to do that role, or did
you do that role in the UK?
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Oh no, I was in Amsterdam working for ASICS
Again.
My career was doing really well.
Asics was on fire.
I went to Lapland on holiday tostay in the Ice Hotel and I
needed to buy some icebreakerbase layers.
I happened to look at thewebsite to pick up the gear.
I looked at the job section andthe perfect roles there just a
(10:06):
global head of planning and so Iapplied, spoke to Rob Fyfe and
a few others of the leadershipteam and ended up here six
months later.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
That's pretty cool.
So you're in New Zealand nowand, as we do this podcast, adam
is working out of a studiowhich looks like it might be in
a garage but it's one heck.
Yeah, it's in a double garagebut it's one heck of a studio
with all sorts of clayanimations in the background and
tools and cameras and all sortsof things.
So you're working forIcebreaker.
(10:35):
You've got this really coolcorporate role there and I know
a few of the Icebreaker peoplemyself.
We can talk about that offline.
We might ball listeners withthat now, but you're in this
role.
What possesses you to go andbecome a stop-motion content
creator?
Speaker 1 (10:51):
the basic part of the decision is the vf court or
icebreaker, and they moved theglobal head office to
switzerland.
So the leadership team therewere given a few choices and one
of the choices was redundancyright.
So the end was a natural endfor me, as in there was no
choice there.
There was a choice to go on andtake another.
(11:11):
I had a few options to go onand probably take some pretty
cool roles for some nice brands,but there's a series of about
five things that happened.
So number one is icebreaker isa very, very good brand to work
for.
They are purpose-led, so theydo great stuff for the planet.
As you know, they are great interms of people, so I was
(11:32):
playing touch rugby twice a weekwith half the office, from CEO
down to every level, and they'regood for profit, so they're
successful.
So what a perfect brand to workfor.
I was getting quite picky, andso the other, the brands that
were led in front of me afterIcebreaker.
They were okay, they lived upto that, but they were more
shareholder listed brands thanpurpose led, if that makes sense
(11:54):
.
So it was going to be a toughchoice to go and work for
someone else.
That's number one.
Number two since I've moved toNew Zealand, I stopped watching
TV in the evenings and I juststarted practicing stop motion
whilst I was doing my globalcorporate role.
So in the evenings I'd say tomy partner, I'm going into the
garage and I sit there and playwith plasticine and do these fun
things.
And the year that I got maderedundant from Icebreaker from
(12:16):
VF Corp, I'd won a fewcompetitions.
I won like five grand off of aseven shot TV remake the ad
competition.
I did a pack and save ad and,by the way, they've never
contacted me to do more stufffor them.
I won the 48 hour filmcompetition as a solo entry,
beating 450 other teams inAuckland, and so I had these
(12:37):
certificates best director, bestfilm and I was doing this in
the evenings with very littletime on my hands, and I was
doing well, so I had a lot ofconfidence.
That was number two.
Number three is that I have atwo-year-old son at the time and
a daughter on the way, and Iwanted to provide them with real
life inspiration of somethingthat shows that they can do what
(12:58):
they want in life, because as achild I just followed
opportunity and that opportunityled me down a corporate path
and I'd like them to see thatactually there are many
different choices you can makein life.
Like I said, I could be an SVPright now, or you know, but some
crazy high level with a greathouse and a house full of Ralph
Lauren, beautiful things, andthat's not what I've ended up
(13:18):
with.
I'm sitting in a doublecarriage with the light blocks
out, playing with plasticine.
So that was the third piece.
I had some safety, so I hadsome savings backed up so that I
could give myself thisopportunity, and my advice to
anyone would be if you do wantto do something different, save
(13:39):
up some money, because it's noteasy when you start out.
I went from a global corporaterole to try and infiltrate the
creative scene in New Zealandand be somebody, and I was
nobody, and so there were manydifferent factors, and I guess
the last factor is, if it didn'twork, I could go back and just
go into corporate.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting advice there that
you're giving people around, youknow, having some sort of cash
runway.
I think there's a lot of peoplethat are going to be listening
to this who feel stuck in.
Whatever it is they're doing,they feel unfulfilled.
They might be in a corporaterole, they might be working for
a bank and they might be doingsomething that they feel is
paying the bills and the familyare happy because they're in a
(14:18):
nice house and life is good, butthey're feeling unsatisfied.
So you obviously got to a pointwhere you thought, okay, this
is kind of being presented to methe icebreaker role and the
opportunity I can take aredundancy.
Was there still a whole lot oftrepidation around making the
jump into doing this full-time,doing the stop-motion content
(14:42):
creation as a full-time gig?
Speaker 1 (14:44):
Oh yeah, when I came home and said to my partner,
megan, there is a really nicecorporate role we can take, or
I'm just going to try and makesome stop-motion films and make
money from it.
And I bet that was met with justdelight and hats on the back.
Yeah, I guess you know I didn'tfinancially sit there and make
that decision at that point intime.
It was more of a romanticthought.
(15:06):
And then I started to validatethe decision as I was walking
through it.
So I sat down with my partnerand we kind of worked out what
it would look like and what thego no go point would be.
I, we kind of worked out whatit would look like and what the
go no-go point would be.
I just wanted to go for it and,like I said, in life I've just
made decisions that I felt wereright at the time rather than
worrying too much about some ofthe details.
So many reasons not to dothings, it's so true.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah, so true.
It's interesting.
I was sharing your video ofexamples of your work with my
wider family this morning andsaying check this out, I'm
interviewing Adam this morning.
He's a guy who you know was acorporate strategy guy who
decided to follow his passionand the things that he was
really good at and,interestingly, the person who
(15:49):
really jumped on the comment wasmy own father, who's nearing 80
now, and his comment was morepeople need to do that and the
earlier they can do that, thebetter.
You know, see, from somebodywho's lived probably most of his
life now.
So I think that's aninteresting thing.
It's, it's a and no doubt youoften reflect on the fact that
you have made this jump and arethere regrets or just you're
(16:12):
like, no, I'm so pleased I'vedone this it might depend on who
I'm talking to, but I meaninternally I struggle all the
time.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
So, like throughout the year there's dips and peaks
in terms of cash flow yeah,where I'll start panicking like
where's the next job coming from?
Up until now I've had somereally good fortune and I've
worked hard for it.
So I don't know how to marketstock motion within New Zealand,
but I know how to networkgenerally, so I've been
networking a lot with a lot ofpeople.
For instance, I sent out myshowreel to every single agency
(16:42):
in New Zealand and it wasn'tthat great at the time but it's
improved and just nothing for atleast a year.
But planting those seeds meantthat a year later I landed some
really nice big TV campaigns fora German seed company, and it
was just completely random.
And then since then thosethings happen now and again.
(17:05):
But anyway, come back to yourquestion.
I think probably the bankbalance drives me to be more
concerned.
So as I see it coming down andI look ahead at what the cash
flow looks like, when I see itgetting to a point where I'm
getting nervous I need to earnmoney right to make a life and
yeah, so I start to panic then.
So in that panic mode, I willdo tons of marketing, tons of
(17:26):
networking, and then what tendsto happen is about four weeks
later, I've got so much work onthat, I have to start turning
stuff down.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
It's a good problem.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It's a great, great problem to have, though, yeah, I
absolutely can't complain.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
I'm not complaining here at all that ebb and flow
you don't have when you havethat employment.
Because they often say and I'veused this phrase here on the
podcast before that in life youneed to impress your
eight-year-old self and your80-year-old self, and you are
one of those guys who I feel isimpressing his eight-year-old
self, and when you get to 80,you can look back and go yeah,
(18:02):
well done, adam.
You didn't take the safe path.
You didn't just do thecorporate thing and earn the big
money and have your wardrobefilled with your company's
products.
You actually got out there andmade your own way and did your
own thing in an area that you'repassionate at and also really
good at, and you know.
Hats off to you for doing that,because that's very hard.
(18:24):
So there'll be people out therewho are thinking, ah, if only I
could do this.
Do you think that's an excusethat people put in front of
themselves, or is it generallythere's good reasons not to do
it?
What's your sort of view onthat?
Do we make excuses around thissort?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
of stuff?
I think that the most logicalway I can answer that question
is when I was a child growinginto an adult and a teenager
growing up to a young adult.
You are faced with choices infront of you.
You don't sit there and think,oh, I want to be this, because
life just doesn't work like that.
You end up going for you Ididn't do university.
You don't sit there and think,oh, I want to be this, because
life just doesn't work like that.
You end up going for your Ididn't do university.
(18:59):
But you end up going foreducation thinking, oh, you have
lots of choices when you leaveand you might have an idea of
what you want to do.
But you tend to fall intosomething and people that fall
into my world of merchandiseplanning with an apparel nobody
wants to do that when they'regrowing up.
But then you become good at it,perhaps, and you start to enjoy
the reputation that you have.
For me, I think the main thingfor me is that I've really
(19:21):
enjoyed my career and workingfor nice people, but I've also
found a hobby that I really,really, really, really like.
I'm so passionate about stopmotion.
If I didn't have this hobby,I'd still be in my corporate
career.
So if I was going to adviseanyone, if they're feeling stuck
in what they're doing, go anddo something that you absolutely
(19:43):
love, but practice and practice, and practice and practice
until you're really really good,because no one will care if
you're not that good at it.
You might love it, that's great.
But if I wasn't very good atstop motion, nobody's going to
employ me.
So I just put my heart and soulinto this and there's so much
passion, like every time when Iwalk from the house into my
double garage.
I'm in my world and this worldis just pure love and passion to
(20:05):
me, and when I heard youtalking about the change and the
fact my eight-year-old selfwill be happy, I can almost feel
myself welling up.
It's an emotional thing.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I love that and I think you're right to talk about
.
It's not just passion and hobby, but you have to be really good
at it because that's what willmake you, you know, a living out
of it and be successful.
But to get to that point, youhave to start and you have to be
able to just, you know, getunderway and get and get
practicing and improving.
Yeah, interestingly, you talkedabout reputation.
(20:35):
So did have, or do you stillhave, any issues of almost an
identity crisis.
So I'm Adam Rowland and I'm acorporate strategy guy to well.
Actually, I know you stillcould go back and do that, but
now I'm a stop motion guy.
How does that affect yourpsyche?
Just that identity piece.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I like to exercise that side of my brain because
I've been doing it for 25 yearsand, as such, people contact me
and I do work on the side forabout one or two days a month to
keep that brain, that side ofme, exercised because I love it.
So I do some consultancy and Ididn't choose to.
It just kind of worked out thatway and I was worried about my
(21:18):
bank balance.
So all sorts of things happenedthat made that happen.
Yeah, some connections atIcebreaker and some other people
just said, hey, now you'redoing your own thing, would you
mind coming and do some stufffor us?
So that actually helped mypsyche a lot, because I think if
I wasn't doing that and I wasjust sitting here trying to
chase a stop-motion world thatisn't quite adding up
financially, then I think thatwould affect my psyche more.
(21:39):
I think cash flow is one of thebiggest things that makes me
comfortable or uncomfortable,regardless of yeah, yeah, it
seems to be a measure on our notjust our success, but our
levels of anxiety, perhaps.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I'm keen for you to help us understand what a
week in the studio looks likefor you in the workshop.
So what do you do?
You work with puppets, you workwith plasticine, et cetera.
So take us through the kind ofyou know, some examples of some
of the cool stuff you've done.
As I said, I'll include a linkthrough to your videos, but,
(22:17):
yeah, take us through a littlebit of what it looks like in the
workshop.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Being a stop motion animator, producer of films as a
solo artist means you actuallyneed to be an expert in about 14
different fields.
So pre-production, which is setbuilding, prop building, stage
building, getting the lightingready and everything else,
that's normally about two-thirdsof the project.
So a lot of that I'll eitheroutsource or do myself and like
(22:42):
the stage that you can seebehind me, greg is all handmade
by me and everything's largelybuilt in-house, because I'll
just charge that money my dayright now.
Stop motion animating itself isobviously the real magic, but
all of that is a lot of planningin advance, including being a
DOP director of photography,having to learn how a camera
works, lens options I mean I'mstill mind-blowing to me, but I
(23:05):
get through it Lighting,storyboarding, building an
animatic.
So in stop motion, if I'mworking with a client, you don't
do any editing at the end.
All the editing is done upfront.
So I'll agree, frame by frame,exactly how it's going to flow
to within reason and the clientwill sign that off, and then
that's what I'll execute.
So let's just rewind to answeryour question.
So a one minute segment of filmat 24 frames per second is 1440
(23:31):
frames, well, which you tend toshoot on two.
So half of those frames 720 or740 frames are single photos
that I'll sequence out.
So yeah, it's a lot of planning.
Sometimes if it's claymation, alot of plasticine management
and keeping it clean, keepingthe air clean and working out
(23:52):
what's going to happen next.
There's a lot of detail.
I mean I don't know where tostart.
Really, the fun part herehere's the fun part.
The fun part is live videoreferences.
So whenever you're animating aperformance, specifically a
character performance, I willvideo myself doing that activity
and then I'll use that as areference.
(24:12):
So I have to be an actor aswell, a physical actor as well.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
And we will see in the video that we share in the
show notes around you engagingwith a figure and getting close
and coming up and looking at it.
It's actually pretty impressivebecause even to do that, I
don't even know how you do that,because you're in real time and
obviously the animated figureis having to be, you know stop.
You do that because you're inreal time and obviously the
animated figure is having to be,you know stop motion.
So that's being done in adifferent way, very, very clever
there's a guy in Canada calledKevin Parry.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
He's one of the most famous ex-Lyca stop motion
artists that just started tocreate a name for himself online
creating content.
He run a series of.
In the year before I was Imoved into stop motion, he ran a
series of.
In the year before I moved intostop motion, he ran a series of
challenges every month on videomagic and stop motion, and so I
used to answer all of hischallenges.
Part of stop motion magic iscreating layers, and one of
(25:08):
those layers can be live filmblended in with something that
you animated, and I particularlylike doing that sort of stuff.
That's a lot of fun.
I'm trying to trick people.
It's kind of just.
That's fun in itself, rightit's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
And how do you go about making the plasticine
characters?
You're making those yourself.
Yeah, for the listeners.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
I can't show you.
So I'm making lots ofplasticine characters and I use
a combination of all sorts ofingredients, mostly plasticine.
But in order for it to behavewell, you blend it in with
things like beeswax and then Iput it through a pasta roller, a
spaghetti machine, to blend thecolors.
There's a lot of managementwhen it comes to dealing with
(25:49):
plasticine.
One of the coolest things youcan do as an animator is do
something called asculpt-through animation.
So you have a character like awallace and gromit type
character.
You are cutting the mouth openeach time, reshaping the next
mouth shape to represent thephenome or the sound that you're
trying to to speaking, get themouth to imitate what the words
(26:10):
are doing.
That sculpt through process isjust so much fun, so much fun
and you'll see listeners.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You will see in the video there's a character who is
talking and actually talkingabout the jaw being taken off,
and then that character sneezesmidway through their
conversation and I use, you know, air quotes.
It's accidental the sneeze, andyet obviously you've scripted
that so beautifully in the wayit's done.
It's incredibly clever.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I was a bit naughty when I did the Aardman course.
There's a lot of copyright laws, obviously, in this world, and
so when I did the Aardman course, they have lots of prescriptive
videos of Pete Lord, the guywho founded Aardman, doing some
lessons and talking to you aboutwhat the right things to do and
what not to do.
So rather than take thecoursework that I was told to do
(26:58):
and what not to do, so, ratherthan take the coursework that I
was told to do, I just took hisvideos, edited them together to
make a bit of a mockery, butalmost like a love letter to
Aardman, and then, yeah, I putthat coffin on purpose because
it's it's nice in stop motionwhen something happens that's
unexpected rather than somethingthat's fully scripted and you
kind of know where it's going.
So, yeah, there's so much tolearn in this world.
Literally, I spent five yearsprobably getting to 30% of the
(27:19):
knowledge of all these differentskills to make this project
work.
I'd say I'm probably halfway onmy journey to being relatively
good because there's so much tolearn.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
What is the hardest part of the creative process in
what you do?
What would be the mostchallenging thing to do
creatively In the stop motion?
Speaker 1 (27:39):
world, I would say that anything is possible.
So finding something originalis probably the hardest part.
It's easy to copy otherpeople's ideas and there's no
such thing as an original idea,right?
So trying to find somethingthat's original is normally a
mishmash of different ideascoming together, which I'm
generally quite good at.
So I'd say the hardest part isbeing creatively original.
(28:03):
What I do have and you can seebehind me, which is top secret
at the moment is a client that'sasked me to do something.
We've come up with somethingoriginal and that's going to get
released in about three monthstime across the whole of Asia,
so or the APAC region.
So this, this is pretty cool.
This is original.
This took a few months to kindof come up with the idea, but
sometimes things also just land.
(28:23):
Greg, the most successful stuffthat I've put on social media,
like that facial placement thingyou just talked about and
referenced they took a few weeksand there's so much fun to make
and because there's so much fun, you get on a roll, get in a
rhythm and the output isgenerally way more interesting
than anything you could createfor any brand, because brands
tend to put limitations on yourcreativity or they have their
(28:45):
own idea, the big brands areprobably easier to work with
than small brands.
If that makes sense, I'llprobably stay away from any
clients in the future that havevery low budgets, because they
tend to have really highexpectations for that low budget
, because it's so the brand'sturning quite precious for them.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
Yeah is it more challenging in stop motion
because digital animation isgetting so good?
Is it making it morechallenging?
Or, in a sense, is there moreof a renaissance for things like
stop motion because it is acraft and it is seen as I don't
know, somewhat cooler than justdigital animation?
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, I think the latter.
So there's so much cool stuffhappening in stop motion.
So when I started out and thiswas only 2016, so only eight
years ago when I started outthere were a few references
online that were really reallygood for stop motion.
There's obviously other films,like the Wallace and Blomit
stuff and Leica, but then in thelast eight years there's now so
(29:45):
much more happening in thisworld.
It's a very small world andI'll tell you about some of the
people I've met here in NewZealand as well.
It's a very small world and yetit's having a really big online
presence as well.
It's a very small world and yetit's having a really big online
presence.
So there's a lot of people outthere that are learning the
craft and getting good at it,because I think it's because
(30:07):
once you start, there's no goingback.
It's really hard to just puteverything down and go.
I'm not going to do thatanymore, especially when you
created something.
Let's just say that people havefound viral online.
So Netflix has been investingheavily into stop motion.
So the Toros Pinocchio, whichis on Netflix, that took 15
years to make, and recentlythey've also done the House and
Wendell and Wilds.
There's loads of stuff onNetflix happening in stop motion
, which is also increasing itspopularity.
(30:30):
I constantly just think and thisis one of my worries that you
asked me about earlier Am I justin a world that's about to end
and I've got excited too late inlife and too late in the market
because CGI is going to comeand just take it all over and AI
?
I really don't think so.
I think stop motion has got atleast I think it will outlive
(30:50):
quite a lot of the AI stuff inthe next 10 to 20 years because
it is so genuine.
For sure AI is going to find away to imitate it.
Yeah, I turned down a gig lastyear because I didn't have the
time to do it and someone elsein Auckland picked it up and
they put it out there and itlooks like stop motion.
But it wasn't.
(31:10):
And I was like who's this otherperson doing stop motion?
Because at the moment I'm theonly one doing commercial
character animation and it turnsout it was just some really
clever kids in a studio that hadthe tools to do it on a CGI
level and it looked great.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
It's interesting because I had a conversation
with Rob Vickery, who's aventure capitalist, and I've
referenced this example a coupleof times now.
He is a venture capitalist butinvests into creative industries
, gaming studios, etc.
And he said that he believesthat the human eye and almost
soul can detect an AI drivencreation versus something that
(31:52):
was created by a human in aworkshop, and that we prefer,
yeah, the latter, we prefer thehuman created story.
So, yes, we are living in aworld of ai and tech and digital
animation.
It's just getting amazing.
But the craft and the craftsmanworking in the workshop there's
something about those that wejust we we resonate with, we
(32:13):
love, we feel this deeperconnection with.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Yeah, yeah, 100%.
So part of my job is to try andmake the stop motion look as
perfect as possible, but Ireally love it when it doesn't
look perfect, exactly Because ittends to have a feeling to it
and a uniqueness that you justcan't get anywhere else.
So let's say there are 100 stopmotion artists around the world
.
They'll all ask to do the sametask.
(32:39):
Not one of them will produce.
None of the output will lookthe same, and I think that in
itself is really nice.
I actually met Rob.
He was giving away plasticinebecause he closed down his store
in Devonport and I raced downthere.
But I managed to chat to himfor 10 minutes.
But yeah, he's just down theroad, or was.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
Small, small world.
So, in terms of you know theworld, that this is opening up
for you and you touched on,maybe, people that you've met
has it created a completelydifferent circle of people that
you hang out with and that youget to meet these days?
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, so a hundred percent.
The creatives that were inIcebreaker, or some of them that
came and went in Icebreaker,I've stayed in touch with and,
as part of that, some of them dovoice acting for me.
You know people all lend a hand.
It's really really nice.
There's a guy down the road Ithink his name's or his
company's called Justin GlassHouse.
(33:25):
I'll need to check that, but hedrops off materials for me when
I need them.
I met some guys that built thestate, the sets for Lord of the
Rings, that came and worked inthis garage.
We built a giant farmyard inhere.
Yeah, the list is endless.
There's a huge creativecommunity out there and I would
say that largely they've openedme with welcome arms and I can't
thank them enough for it.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
It's been really nice and I presume, given how much
you love what you do, that therehasn't been a time where you've
gone.
I think I need to give thisaway and go back to corporate
strategy.
Have you ever had that moment?
No, I'm picking.
You haven't, because of howmuch you love it.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
It's just cashflow, craig.
If it comes down to it, I'llhave to, and sometimes I'll
apply for a role if it'sinteresting creatively as well.
Just to check my thoughtprocess, even when I'm in a job
in the corporate world, I'llprobably apply for one or two
jobs a year or network withpeople that might have the roles
to see if I'm in the rightplace still and whether there's
(34:23):
an opportunity to move on.
I do the same thing here and Ijust keep myself in check to
make sure that I'm stillrelevant in the marketplace,
because even moving from Europeto New Zealand has been tricky
in terms of, like, readjustingmy skill set for this, for this
environment.
So, yeah, there are times whenI tweak and I go okay, yeah, I
think I might need to go and geta job, but largely I won't give
(34:45):
this up.
If I can, I'll do everything Ican to keep this going, not
blindly, like if it just becomesa hobby in the future, then it
just becomes a hobby, but fornow it's becoming something else
, and what I'd really like to doand I'd like to come back on
this podcast in a year or so istalk to you in a year or so
about how I've managed to turnthis into a company and hire a
(35:06):
team and have a greater outputin terms of how much I can
generate, because stop motion'stime intensive, it doesn't
necessarily need to be expensive.
But if I do, how much I cangenerate Because stop motion's
time intensive, it doesn'tnecessarily need to be expensive
.
But if I do the math, I cangenerate about seven minutes
worth of stop motion a year Wow.
I did a TV commercial last yearwhich was a minute long and it
(35:28):
took six months Wow.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
That's insane.
Seven minutes of content takesyou a year.
So that's you working full timein this gig and you'll create
seven minutes of content.
That's with a team.
That's with a team and that'syou outsourcing.
So if you were to do longerformat production for the likes
of a Netflix or anotherproduction house, you would need
(35:50):
a bigger team or you would haveto take years to produce yeah,
either go and work on a biggerteam or hire the team.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
You'd need a bigger team for sure just to do all the
different roles.
So my time at the moment as asolo artist is distracted by.
There's no real value in mesitting here building a prop.
The value for me is indirecting and animating.
If it comes to a point where Ican hire a team of animators and
the output explodes, thenfantastic.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
So could we see you build essentially a stop motion
studio.
That is something that NewZealand looks at and goes.
Look at what Adam has done here, Like he's built an industry
essentially from here.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
That's the dream, right, that's the dream, yeah,
and you're well-placed.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Having corporate strategy is a skill to know how
to build this thing when itstarts to take off.
So what gets in the way of that?
Is it the clients?
Is it winning the work?
Is it capability of team aroundyou?
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Yeah, I would say there's two main factors.
One is just I think the work isthere.
I think, based on the size ofthe industry in the UK and in
Europe and America, the work isthere because there's nothing
here at the moment.
So the opportunity to grab apercentage of that market and
build a business is 100% there.
There's no doubt in my mindabout that.
The cashflow and just buildingup the investment piece to make
(37:13):
that work is probably one of thebiggest boundaries.
And then the second is if Iwant to hire other stop motion
animators that can come in anddo this, hiring people to build
stages and props.
New Zealand's full of that, sothat's no problem.
There's loads of skill andtalent here.
All the post-production, noproblem, but the actual
animation itself there's verylittle.
So you probably just importthat talent from the UK.
(37:34):
So there's a studio down inChristchurch run by Anthony
Ellsworthy and they make Kiriand Lou.
And Kiri and Lou is a preschoolamazing show about two
dinosaurs.
I don't know if you've seen it,but it's been running for about
five seasons.
So Anthony is ex-Lyca and he'scome to New Zealand and they
(37:54):
make that show and they fund itfrom here, but they don't go
outside of that world.
They've chosen to make the TVshow.
They don't do commercials andbigger things.
So I guess that's the side ofthe market that's open for
opportunity.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, and how do you get inspired?
Like, what is it that you, thatyou listen to, that you you
watch, that you read, thatinspires you around this?
Is it things that are directlyadjacent to stop motion, or is
it, you know, other things likemusic and those sorts of things?
So how do you get a burst ofenergy and excitement to go and
get into the workshop?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
yeah, it's a great question.
I'd say there are definitelytimes when I sit here staring at
a screen and for zeroproductivity and I hate that.
I guess that's a creator'sissue, it's the.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Steven Pressfield.
I don't know if you've everread the book Turning Pro, and
Steven Pressfield is a writerthat talks about the creator's
sort of dilemma, where a creatorwill sit down and have nothing
and will actually seekdistraction.
They'll go to the fridge,they'll look for food, they'll
put some music on, they'll goand, you know, mow the lawn or
(38:59):
something, because they'rethey're actually not able to get
into the creative process andthat, presumably, is something
that you have as well as acreator yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:08):
So to go back to the original question of how do I
get inspired, I'd say theeasiest thing to inspire someone
like me I don't know, I haven'tbroken apart how I operate is
to set me a challenge.
So I'll go and find thosechallenges, and that might be.
I did the Aardman course in theUK, which is an online course.
I did it for six months andevery week you get to speak to
(39:30):
hugely influential people in theindustry and then my output
from that was hugely inspired byall my experience within that.
So I think doing coursework andactually upskilling is probably
one of the biggest inspirationsfor me, because then I'll take
that new skill and blend it withsomething else that I can see
an opportunity for.
You know, just sitting herelooking around I'm not going to
(39:51):
inspire myself.
I need to find out.
I need to work with otherpeople and chat to them and then
say, hey, let's do that.
So and that happened thismorning just on text message
with a guy around the cornerthat I bumped into while taking
my kids for a walk he's reallygood at a specific skillset and
we just started to do somethingfor Christmas and he's got a 3d
printer.
So who knows, who knows?
The opportunities come from allsorts of angles.
(40:12):
I just try and hunt them downand I do a lot of proactive
networking.
So about three or four hours ofmy week is chatting to
creatives or people in differentroles within the industry,
either trying to take them for acoffee or trying to learn stuff
from them.
So, yeah, inspiration comesfrom other people 99% of the
(40:33):
time.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
Your proactive networking.
Do you find that works?
Because there'll be people outthere that want to build their
own businesses and they canlearn from this particular
aspect of the conversation.
Do you find that productive?
Speaker 1 (40:44):
Yeah, hugely.
It's worked my entire life.
When I moved to New Zealand,the first thing I did is took a
few CEOs out for coffee thatweren't connected with what I
was doing, and I've builtrelationships with them over the
last six years and they're nowI probably, call them good
friends of mine.
So, yeah, I mean it's hugelyhelpful.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
It's interesting.
Would you say that you areextroverted by nature or not?
Is networking something thatcomes easy to you?
I like to practice it.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
Let's just say that I like to practice it to stay on
top of it.
Yes, I get incredibly nervouswith doing new things.
One of the things I'd say is Irun.
Have you heard of park run?
Yes, yeah, so I run a park runevery Saturday.
So I'm one of the run eventdirectors for the Western
Springs one, and you just go andstand up on a Saturday morning
when you just got out of bed,drag your kids there and I'll
(41:33):
stand and talk to 300 people andtalk to them about the day's
activities A huge, loud, boomingEnglish accent and just try and
make it as a great experiencefor them as possible.
One of the lessons I've alwayslearned in life is always make
sure that the people walk awayfrom you feeling good about
themselves or feeling good aboutthe experience.
So, yeah, the active networkingand practice keeps me on top of
(41:56):
being slightly extroverted.
If that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (42:00):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
And interestingly, the leverageif that's the right word that
you're able to get by justtalking to people and connecting
with other humans is it's quiteprofound.
We don't need to overthink this.
We just need to get out andhave coffee with people.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
Yeah, yeah, hey, I'm a listener.
I've had coffees with peoplewhere people just talk at me and
ask me no questions, and I findthat sometimes quite
disappointing.
I love listening and learningand that's in my psyche.
So if I can listen and learnand find something new out in
that day that that's going tohelp me advance, then that's
(42:36):
exactly the behavior I'll do.
I've learned so many times thatthat's a positive process and
it's enhanced me in my life insome way or another that I now
just ask more questions than Ido and in terms of like trying
to share this is uncomfortablefor me because I'm talking about
me and I'm very you know it'sfun to to do, but I've never
(43:01):
really over analyzed everything.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Yeah, for me it's actually a super interesting
conversation with somebody doingsomething that is so cool and,
as I said before we started thepodcast, it's a shame we're not
doing a video production of ofthis podcast, because they would
get to see your workshop andperhaps we would upload some of
the video content to show it.
Is there something that youwould want people listening to
know that are contemplatingmaking a big change in their
(43:23):
career to do something thatthey've always had as a bit of a
passion or something they'vealways wanted to do?
So, aside from the cash flowand maybe making sure there's
some money there, is theresomething else that you would
want to share with them?
From the the cash flow andmaybe, you know, making sure
there's some some money there,is there something else that you
would want to share with themabout the switch, because you
have made quite the switch.
Corporate strategy and stopmotion creation are quite
(43:45):
distinct fields.
You know they're quitedifferent.
Is there something that youwould you would want to share
with them?
Speaker 1 (43:50):
oh, just don't be afraid of, yeah, making change
when the going's good, and alsolisten to your gut and your
heart more than maybe commonsense sometimes and take a risk,
because what's the worst thatcan happen if you fail?
Yeah, that's a really easything to say when you put
yourself in a position to beable to fail, but if you've got
(44:11):
so many other pressures in life,that's hard to enact, isn't it?
So it's really hard to takethat advice.
It's easy to give it but hardto understand from that person's
point of view how they couldactually enact on it.
I mean, I made the changewithout knowing it eight years
ago when I stopped watchingtelly and started practicing and
I wasn't very good.
So, yeah, I guess stick with itis another thing as well.
(44:34):
I definitely just push and pushfor something you enjoy and
don't necessarily listen topeople around you.
I mean, I was putting stuff outthere six years ago that now I
look back on it and I'm tryingto delete those videos.
I'm so embarrassed by them.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
But yeah, just stick with it and don't be afraid to
make change, especially when thegoing's good, and I've said it
several times, but I thinkthat's so key yeah, look, you
might have paused before yougave the answer, but I think the
answer you gave is absolutegold for people, because, yeah,
I think there's some real, thereis genuine gold there.
Like you need to be brave.
I think that's probably the keytrait be brave.
(45:10):
Life is not, you know, dressrehearsal.
You need to give this thing ashot and you need to keep
practicing.
You need to just start and ifyou are looking at doing a
creative endeavor, startcreating, even if the work is
not perfect.
But start.
And I'll close, I guess, with afinal question Is there
something that you believe inthat very few people do?
(45:34):
That's very counterculture andit's not to not to paint you as
a, as some sort of weirdo, butis there something that's a
belief that you hold, orsomething that you that you
quite strongly believe in, butactually it's not?
Speaker 1 (45:48):
it's not a commonly held belief from a corporate
world, we've got lots ofviewpoints in terms of how to
behave around other people.
I think there's loads.
There's like be nice, be fair,listen as much as you can,
because it's probably the bestskill in the world, right?
Speak up when it counts isprobably one of my favourites,
(46:08):
and I've been guilty of notspeaking up and I've watched
businesses go in the wrongdirection.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Yeah, yeah, I will give you one, one other final
question.
Having said that, that was thefinal one.
This is the.
This will be the genuine finalone.
Yeah, is there somebody thatyou think I should have on the
podcast, and if you can think ofwho that person might be, what
should I ask them?
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Who have I enjoyed speaking to the most, I'd say?
Or who's the most interesting?
Or might ask yourself.
I think there's a guy that I'mworking with right now who is x
like a head of puppets, head ofparents, that's.
Tell me about it and that's.
That's no easy feat becauselike is the best in the world in
terms of the stop motionindustry.
(46:50):
So I so I'm going to bestop-motion orientated.
To answer your question, there'sa really lovely guy he won't
mind me mentioning his namecalled John Craney, and he moved
back to New Zealand as part ofCOVID for his family and ended
up relinquishing the role atsome way or another eventually
from Leica because he had tomove back to New Zealand.
(47:11):
So I think it's veryinteresting.
I don't know if I'm evenallowed to say some of the stuff
that he's doing, so I'll lethim talk to you about that if
you do speak to him, but thisguy is phenomenal and he's
helping me, with the ex-Leicateam, build an amazing puppet at
the moment, and I'd love tohear what kind of things he has
to say about his life, becausehe's been on an incredible
(47:32):
journey.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
John, we're coming for you.
Adam said it was okay, so we'recoming for you.
Adam, it has been such a thrillto talk to you.
As I said when I was preparingfor this earlier today, I
actually I think theeight-year-old version of me got
quite excited by thisconversation and where we would
go.
So, look, you are doing suchamazing work and I want to thank
you for just some of the thingsyou've shared, because there
will be people, as I said, whoare listening, who think I've
(48:00):
always had this desire to go anddo whatever it is that they
want to go and do, and I need togo and do it, and just
listening to you, hopefully, isthe straw that breaks the
camel's back for them, and theydo go off and do it.
You're an inspiration.
Let's come back in a year'stime and do another podcast and
we'll talk about what you'vebeen able to create.
As I said before, I willinclude ways to not just see
(48:23):
your creative work, but alsoways that people can connect
with you, and I'll put thoseinto the show notes.
Adam, it has been an absolutepleasure, so thanks so much for
your time.
Thanks, frank.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.