May 5, 2024 • 37 mins
When entrepreneurial fervor meets an insatiable urge to shake up the norm, you get the captivating story of Aaron Ward.
Our exchange with the Ask Nicely co-founder and Chief Strategy Officer is less of a conventional interview and more of a masterclass in turning the kernel of an idea into a global phenomenon. As we unfurl Aaron's narrative, you'll be privy to the raw, unvarnished truths of startup life — from weathering financial pressure to the thrill of winning the first big client catch by delivering on a promise before a product integration existed.
But it's not all business tactics and growth strategies; we also delve into how incorporating Maori cultural values into Ask Nicely's ethos has resonated with customers worldwide.
His conviction in embracing the 'madness' of entrepreneurship is encouraging for fellow founders to cherish the unpredictable journey that is building a business.
You can connect with Aaron on LinkedIn and be sure to check out AskNicely.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I suffer, hopefully, from a healthy level of
discontent for the status quo.
I think there are things outthere that there are plenty of
things that can be and should beimproved, and we need founders
that are prepared to get outthere and swing the bat and miss
Aaron is the co-founder andchief strategy officer of Ask
Nicely.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
There's a great quote from I think it was George
Bernard Shaw, and he has a quoteall progress relies on the
unreasonable man, somebody whodoesn't necessarily ascribe to
the status quo.
So by definition they'reactually being unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Never tell me the odds.
If you knew the odds of successon starting a startup, you
wouldn't do it.
There's a level of crazinessrequired, but I'm attracted to
it.
I like those odds.
I think that's how we discoverthe new, that's how we evolve as
a species, when we're out theretrying to prove a new formula,
a new theory.
So that's what I like.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:23):
.
My guest today is Aaron Ward.
Let's get on with it and hearfrom our next guest.
My guest today is Aaron Ward.
Aaron is the co-founder andchief strategy officer of Ask
Nicely, and I'll get Aaron totalk a little bit about what Ask
Nicely does shortly.
I met Aaron when I was in theUS at Sasta back in September of
2023 and was just super, superimpressed with the guy, and I've
had a few conversations withhim.
(01:44):
We've even done a brekkie atsome random little airport in
San Mateo in California.
He is one very, very impressiveindividual.
Aaron, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Thanks, Greg, Good to be here with you.
I think with that intro you'reway too overhyped me, but I'll
do my best to live up to atleast some of what you said.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I don't think anybody could overhype you, mate, and
we were just sort of chattingoffline and just riffing as you
do.
One thing I know about you,mate, is I know that you went to
Long Bay College and I'm aRangitoto College boy, which,
for those listening outside ofNew Zealand Aotearoa as we like
to call New Zealand here theyare rival high schools.
(02:24):
They're about, I don't know,maybe 10, 20.
Fierce rivals they are.
They are, they're like fiercerivals.
And so as soon as I knew thatAaron was a Long Bay College boy
, I kind of had to kind of up mygame, actually a little bit.
But, aaron, I'd love to kind ofstart with that and start
before we get into the story ofAsk Nicely and the journey
(02:45):
around that, I'd love to know alittle bit about your origin
story.
We can even go back before LongBay College if you like.
Were you one of those kids thatwas always destined to be an
entrepreneur?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, if I was, goodness knows, I didn't realize
that and I think that my owncareer is a bit of a drunkard's
walk.
It's never a straight line,certainly wasn't for me.
You know, I believe in sort ofthe roomba approach to strategy.
You know the little robotvacuum cleaner that, uh, you
know, it sort of keeps buttinginto walls until it finds the
path that it needs to, it needsto take, you know, and I look
(03:16):
back over my career in historyand try to make sense of it in
the rearview mirror and there'sno sense to be.
You know, there's nothing sortof necessarily logical.
I've hit a bunch of brick wallsthrough my time and, you know,
found myself, you know,fortunately landing in startup
land in a role in a company thatI really enjoy and am energized
(03:37):
by.
But to make sense of the pathI've got here, I think that's
kind of tricky.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You grew up in Auckland, though, and spent most
of your time, I think, livingin Auckland, and then we'll talk
about the US shortly, where youare now as we record this, but
tell us a little bit about thatearly origin story for us,
nicely.
I have heard this.
I've heard you speak atSouthern SAS, and you gave an
amazing presentation, actuallyat Southern SAS in Auckland back
(04:04):
whenever that was, you know,six months ago, but I would love
to hear that early origin story, for there's so many people
that are going to be listeningto this haven't heard how Ars
Nicely got started.
I'd love to kind of dig intothat a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah well, I guess we saw an opportunity when I say
we myself and my co-founder,john Bellinger saw an
opportunity to really change theway that service businesses in
particular deliver an awesomeexperience to their customers on
a daily basis.
And it started with a fairlysimple insight, which is in the
(04:37):
service sector, you can, as acustomer, go into a store and
get an awesome experience oneday and then the following day
get an awful experience.
It could be the same store,it's the same product, it's the
same price.
What changes is the humors, thefrontline worker behind it
that's serving you.
And so we thought to ourselveswell, goodness, how is it that
you happen to go aboutmotivating a frontline worker to
(04:59):
deliver a great experience tocustomers every day?
And we thought about frontlineworkers.
Like, they don't get a lot offeedback right, and chances are,
the feedback that they do getfrom customers is when things go
wrong.
And we applied a bit ofbehavioral psychology that I
think we all lived as humansback when we were four years old
in kindergarten, and there'sthat moment when, you know, the
(05:21):
teacher puts a little gold starbehind your name and says well
done, you've done well theretoday.
And we said, well, goodness, Iremember how that felt as a
four-year-old and then, 40 yearslater, I still feel that
feeling when somebody comes tome and says, hey, aaron did a
great job on that Well done.
It's extremely motivating andenergizing.
And we said, well, goodness, ifwe could make that moment, make
(05:43):
that feeling a part of aday-to-day for people in
frontline roles.
We think that can make adifference to the experiences
that they're delivering tocustomers.
So a much shorter way ofdescribing what Ask Nicely is is
about getting feedback fromcustomers after they've had an
experience with a brand andmaking sure that feedback gets
directly to the person thatdelivered that experience, so
(06:05):
that they know that what they domatters and is valued by the
customer and appreciated by them, but also by the leaders in the
organization who have anopportunity to sort of catch you
in the act of doing thingsright.
So I mean, that's really thejob or the mission of us nicely.
And the way we, you know,looked at that and said, well,
we can actually build a globalbusiness.
This is a massive global marketopportunity that nobody is
(06:28):
really tackling.
But at the time we were twoguys sitting in a garden shed in
Ponsonby in Auckland.
We had this sort of reasonablyaudacious vision to tackle.
We said I'm going to crack intoit as two guys with a big, bold
idea and thankfully that's gonepretty well for us.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And from memory you've told the story before
I've heard you talk about thispublicly where you and John I
don't think you were in businesstogether at this point when you
first, you know, just beforeyou started, and I think he made
some comment to you around thelong lines of and I'll screw
this up, I'm sure, but it wassomething along the lines of and
I'll screw this up, I'm sure,but it was something along the
lines of if you do come up witha great idea, then you know I'd
(07:07):
love to be in business with you.
And then, when you did get theidea, he started work on it
immediately and I think he had aalmost like a V1 out within 24,
48 hours or something hestarted coding that day from
memory.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That's right.
Yeah, well, I think I've knownJohn for 10 years and he's a
particularly special individual.
He's got that sort of mixtureof Steve Jobs and Wozniak.
He's a mad inventor and when Imet him and first did a couple
of projects with him, wediscovered very quickly that we
had an uncommon chemistrytogether.
Where each of us was weak, theother had a strength and we were
(07:47):
able to, you know, togetherperform, you know, to sort of
complete each other a bit.
And I knew from that moment thatI wanted to go into some form
of business with the guy, justdidn't know what.
And over the you know, thecourse of the 10 years of
knowing each other, I would walkup to his house and I would
pitch various ideas to him andhe would very quickly dismiss
(08:11):
each and every one of them anddispatch me away and tell me
don't come back unless you havea decent idea.
And after literally 10 years ofthis back and forth, I rocked
up and he told me later.
He said look, I was going totell you don't come back again.
The two of us went and sat downin a bar on Ponson Road and I
(08:32):
shared the basic idea that wasto become artists nicely.
And he said finally, you'vecome up with a decent idea, I
like it, I'll build it.
I'm over the moon excited atthis.
And I said awesome when he saidtonight he said stop talking,
you talk too much, I'm goinghome to start coding.
And he literally picked up hisMacBook and it was 11.30 on a
(08:53):
Tuesday night and he walked homefrom that bar and literally
started building the prototypeon that night that's insane and
I also heard you tell a storyabout.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
You had a potential customer quite a large customer
I think on a phone call and youwere both working in the garage
at this point and he overheardthe conversation and I think
they said something like, haveyou got this particular feature?
And you said, or he said, yes,we do, even though you didn't.
And he started building thefeature almost while you were on
(09:23):
the phone call and it was, Iguess it's that early
responsiveness, that is thatembedded into the DNA of Ask.
Nicely that you know.
Let's make this happen, let'ssatisfy what the customer wants.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
So we have a set of values inthe organization.
One of those is love yourfeedback.
Now, of course, our business isbuilt around collecting
feedback from customers andgetting that to the front line,
but love your feedback is moreof a rallying cry for how we win
as an organisation.
Now, so if I'm open toreceiving feedback from my
(09:57):
teammates and from people in theorganization, chances are I'll
improve my game over time.
So that's really reallyimportant.
But the flip side of that coinis, if I'm sharing my feedback
with the people around me, theyget the opportunity to lift
their game as well.
And so it's that dynamic ofbeing able to give and receive
feedback with love and for usall to improve that helps us win
(10:19):
as a business.
And so that story that youshared and I remember that call
because I was the one talking tothe customer and he said to me
this product was great, do youintegrate with deskcom, which at
the time I think we only hadone or two integrations.
I knew that we certainly didn'thave deskcom, but I repeated the
question out loud because Johnwas sitting opposite me on the
(10:40):
same desk and I knew that if Iasked the question out loud do
we integrate with deskcom?
That John would jump onto theAPI docs for deskcom and find
out whether or not we couldintegrate with it, which is
exactly what he did, and he gaveme a thumbs up within seconds,
which was enough to me topromise to the customer that,
(11:00):
yes, that integration did existand if he wanted to sign up and
give me the credit card number,that I'd take it and ship him
the instructions that afternoon,which is exactly what we did.
John built that integration ina couple of hours and we won the
customer, and that story hasoccurred again and again and
again in different formsthroughout the life cycle of the
business, which is just thatidea of feedback in action and
(11:24):
being able to be, like you say,responsive.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And so you got started, and you were still in
the garage and you startediterating with early customer
feedback, et cetera, andstarting to build the product
out, did you?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
bootstrap.
The garage is generous.
Remember this is a garden shed,a garden shed.
This is a garden shed, a gardenshed.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
This is a garden shed .
Did it still have implementsgarden implements in it, or had
you cleaned it out it?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
had more than that.
It wasn't clean at all, it didnot smell great.
It had an outhouse attached toit as well.
This is not salubrious.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
We are selling the software to CMOs in the US with
an orchestra of lawnmowers andbarking dogs in the background.
It's outstanding.
And so did you.
I mean, it sounds like you werebootstrapping.
Did you bootstrap for longbefore you started taking
outside capital?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Not long.
About two or three months wasabout as much as we could
sustain ourselves.
So we both had young childrenand Auckland mortgages and no
money in the bank.
So, more through circumstance,we had to go and raise some
money to keep ourselves alive.
But also because we recognizedthat this was a global market
(12:31):
opportunity and if we were righton that, it wouldn't be long
before the big well-resourced,well-funded competitors saw it
also and chased after us, whichwas the case.
So to swing the bat hard on itand really give it a good nudge,
we definitely needed to raiseoutside venture money for us and
that was definitely a good movefor us.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And where did you go for that?
What was that process?
Was that New Zealand investors?
Was it angel groups, VCs?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, so at the time, this was 2014, and at that time
there was no VC ecosystem inNew Zealand as there is, you
know.
Of course, that's a vastlydifferent story today and there
are many, many more options.
So for us at that time, we wereout there almost literally just
door knocking, you know, folksthat we thought might have some
spare cash, and we ended upgoing to the two main angel
(13:23):
networks in New Zealand at thattime, both in Auckland and
Wellington, to raise anembarrassingly small first seed
round.
You know which got us going?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And then did you sort of how long did that last year
before you then needed furthercash?
Or did you hit profitabilityand keep growing out of profit
from then on?
No, no, no sort of.
How long did that last yearbefore you then needed further
cash, or did you hitprofitability and keep growing
out of profit?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
from then on no, no, no.
We realised within two or threemonths that we hadn't raised
anywhere near enough.
So I think about five or sixmonths later we were out there
raising more again and we wentthrough five funding rounds to
get to the point that we're atat the moment.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And was it a?
You know it's probably a sillyquestion, but was it a
relatively straightforwardprocess for you to raise funding
each time, or were youcontinually rejected?
How did that go?
Did it feel like that'ssomething you mastered, or was
it just continually an uphillbattle?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
We definitely got better at it over time and I
think the thing that made itfeel easier is each time that we
were raising we'd made a greatdeal of progress and we were
selling a product that wasreasonably unique and
differentiated in the market,and it was quite clear that at
each round that we raised moneythat this business was
accelerating.
So I think that made thefundraising process a lot easier
(14:38):
.
We were fortunate right fromthe start to find early
believers in the investorcommunity that became
cheerleaders for not just thebusiness and the product but
also us as founders as well andI think you know gained a lot of
early credibility because ofyou know the names and track
(14:58):
records of those that we'reattracted to to support the
business in those very earlyfunding rounds.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And you've got through.
You've grown, I guess, customernumbers and headcount
throughout the process.
At what point did you decidethat you wanted to move beyond
NZ as a market?
Was that right at the outsetthat you were thinking global
from day one, we're going to beoff to the US, et cetera, as
fast as we can, or was thatsomething that happened a few
(15:26):
years down the line?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
No, absolutely.
I mean pre-launch.
We knew that if we were goingto be a chance of building a
global business, that we had towin in the US market.
That was critical, and so, fromday one, we were buying Google
ads in the US market.
That was critical, and so, fromday one, we were buying Google
ads in the US and havingconversations with American
companies, and I think that wasa huge part of our success
making sure that we were globalfrom day one.
(15:49):
And how quickly did you jump ona plane and head to the US or
consider being based in the US,I think we visited the US for at
least the first 18 or 24 months, so we achieved a great deal
from New Zealand, more than we'dexpected to, to be honest, and
I think that whilst it wascritical for us to move over the
US and create an American baseand team, I think it's less
(16:14):
important to do that nowadaysand there is much that can be
achieved from a New Zealandbeachhead.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So you made the decision, though, that you
personally would be the one thatwould head up conquering the US
by moving to the US.
How long ago did you moveyourself and your family up
there?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Just over six years.
So at the start of 2018 wemoved over and we established
our marketing, sales, customersuccess, also finance and HR
teams all here in the US, andthen we kept our design, product
and engineering teams in NewZealand, and so we essentially
had a co-founder in each ofthose geographies leading those
functions and sort ofmaintaining a consistent culture
(16:56):
across both places and sort ofmaintaining a consistent culture
across both places.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
How did that go with talking to your wife to say,
okay, I think we should move tothe US and we're going to have
to move the family over there?
Was that an easy conversationto?
Have or was that one that was alittle bit more challenging?
Definitely challenging.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Used the word insane earlier on, and I subscribe to
the view that if you are goingto start a new venture, co-found
a startup like this, that thereis a minimum level of insanity
that's required.
Thankfully, my wife is quitefamiliar with my particular
level of insanity, and so when Ishared that this is something
(17:32):
that I wanted to do and that Ibelieved in and I thought was
going to be important for thebusiness but also exciting for
our family, you know, I don'tthink it was a huge shock,
because this is part of mymakeup and she did marry me, so
a little bit of it goes with theterritory.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So essentially she was signing it off right from
the beginning.
Right From the time she marriedyou, she was saying look, aaron
, wherever you go, I'm goingwith you.
It's all going to be good.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, I think that's part of our commitment to each
other.
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, and so you set up in the northwestern states,
so up near Portland.
There Culture shock.
Or did you find it hard tosettle in and build a life there
?
Or was that quitestraightforward?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It was quite straightforward.
One of the criteria that weapplied to choosing Portland as
a location is, you know, youmentioned culture.
We wanted to make sure that wewere able to bring the culture
that we'd created in New Zealandto Portland and have that feel
natural and authentic.
And in Portland for me this isprobably the most New
Zealand-like city of all thosethat I've visited in the US it
(18:42):
bears a lot of similarities,both geographically You've got
rivers and mountains and lakesand it's very, very green, just
like New Zealand is.
It's also a particularly niceplace.
Nobody beeps their horns on theroads.
If you're standing on the sideof the road and you look like
you might want to cross sometimetoday, the cars will literally
stop in the middle of the roadand wait for you to walk across.
(19:03):
So it's an extremely nice placeto live, with nice people that
are nice to each other, and, ofcourse, we built a brand around
being nice.
So it was a very soft landingfor us here and we've really
enjoyed that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And we've really enjoyed that.
And I guess one of the keythings that I always admire
about you is your connection toyour ancestry and a year or two
back won the Maori BusinessLeader of the Year at the High
Tech Awards here in New Zealand,aotearoa, and I've always been
really impressed by how you'veembraced that culture, always
(19:41):
been really impressed by howyou've embraced that culture.
How has that impacted thejourney?
For Ask Nicely, particularlygiven that you don't live in New
Zealand, you know you're notconnected as readily and as
easily to that Māori ancestrywhich I know is just so
important to you.
Does it make it harder being inthe US in that regard, or is
that something that you're ableto bring to the business in the
(20:01):
US?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, I guess on a personal level, yeah, it
definitely has made it harder,being detached from where I'm
from and from my heritage and myculture, which I think also it
provides all the more reasonjust to really lean into it.
You can see on the call thatI've got a fairly hefty whanau
stone hanging around my neckwhich is visible to everybody
that I come into contact withhere in the US and it's common
(20:26):
for people to come up to me andsay, hey, are you from New
Zealand?
And I get to be able to sharethat conversation and share that
story around who I am.
And it's one of the things thathas been a little bit
surprising to me actually is howhighly revered and valued the
New Zealand brand and Maoriculture is here in the US.
There's quite a high degree ofawareness but also reverence for
(20:49):
it, which I've really enjoyed.
The other part is we're veryproud to be a New Zealand
business.
It's one of our customersrecognize that and value it also
, which grants us permission tobe very explicit around our Kiwi
roots and embedding that intoour rituals within the company.
So we have weekly all-handscalls and monthly town halls
(21:13):
which include folks based herein the US, in New Zealand and in
Amsterdam.
They're all open to our Māori.
We have a patoki on our websiteand Māori values weaved into
the rituals that we have in theorganisation and I think for
many of the non-Māori in thebusiness they see that as being
something quite special thatthey're proud of.
So I think that's been valuablefor us in building a true sense
(21:38):
of unique identity as abusiness and as a team.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
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(22:24):
Let's get back to the show.
Well, well done to you, becauseI think for younger Maori
people of Maori descent, thereis a sense that you can't be it
unless you can see it, and sothey can look at you and they
can see that you came fromlittle old Long Bay College.
You're a Māori boy who is nowin the US and doing some really
(22:47):
cool things, and so that will,without you necessarily even
being aware of it, will providemassive inspiration to younger
people, and particularlyfounders, who are looking at
taking on the world and doingsomething and carving out their
space.
So I think it's a massivetestament to you and the way
that you lead in that regard andthe way that you bring Māori
(23:07):
tanga into the culture of whatyou are doing at Ask Nicely.
So you've been at this now for adecade, right?
So this is a long haul to doany kind of startup.
What's been the hardest thingthat you've had to endure
building us nicely?
What's something that maybe youjust if you'd known 10 years
ago, you'd be like, oh God, Idon't necessarily want to have
(23:29):
to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
There's a ton of things.
I could quite easily pick one.
I think one of the interestingthings that I've wrestled with
and continue to wrestle with isone of the things that I think
really helped us be successfulin the early days, actually
turned on us and became ourkryptonite in the earlier days.
As a co-founder especially whenyou think about two guys in a
(23:53):
garden shed you need to bemultidisciplined and able to
lean into any number of areas ofthe business where they have
problems that need attention.
So in one day, I'm a sales guy,I'm a marketing guy, I'm a
finance guy and you really needto care for all the details in
an organization.
(24:13):
I think there comes a pointwhere, as the organization
benefits from that and builds alevel of scale and then requires
experts in their fields to comeand own those areas of the
business, that code needs toflip.
You need to turn from amicromanager into a macromanager
(24:33):
and if you don't make thatswitch, you can become a
bottleneck or a handbrake on theorganization because you're so
used to playing in all of thecorners of the business.
That's something that I'vepersonally struggled with.
It's hard to see that momentcoming and prepare for it, but
(24:53):
in the rear view mirror I cansee that that's something that I
wish I was a better macromanager earlier in the Ask
Nicely story.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And so now you are, in addition to being the
co-founder with John, you're thechief strategy officer.
Is that part of what you'retalking about there?
Is that part of why you'vechosen that strategy role, so
that you're not necessarily theCEO?
You're in a different role?
Is it because you're looking atyour strengths, et cetera?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, this is the point.
Now, being over nine years intothe journey, I can look back
and say, okay, where are themoments where I was the most
impactful and where I was themost energized and where I
enjoyed it most?
And those, for me, are themoments where you're out there
designing and building the nextthing, the next phase, and I
(25:40):
think my wife would certainlyprefer this wasn't the case, but
I realized today that I dosuffer from the startup gene.
I'm most happiest when I'mdesigning and building something
new and I think, in a strategyrole, that's the nature of that
role is being able to sort oflook around corners and design
for the next phase of thecompany, and that's what I enjoy
(26:01):
.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
And I want to jump back into the US experience a
little bit.
There'll be a bunch of Kiwi andAussie founders, maybe even
some in the UK, but particularlythose in New Zealand and
Australia, who are thinkingabout the US.
Have you got any advice forthem about things they should
consider about being based there?
I know you were saying you cando a lot remotely, but once you
(26:25):
do start to enter the market,what are some things they should
be thinking about, things thatare different?
I mean, there's a lot that'sdifferent, right, but what would
you be advising a founder to beconsidering if they are
thinking of putting boots on theground in the US?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, I think the most practical advice that I can
give is get really close topeople that have done it.
You know, as a business that'sbuilt on feedback, one of the
things that we struggled withbecause of the time that we were
launching was finding othersignificance in the US.
Now, much of the success thatwe did have was in talking to
folks that had been there.
And you've got to be a littlebit careful because I think
(27:00):
sometimes the advice that othersmight give you is a little bit
closer to nostalgia, becausethat answer was right for them
at that time and that's why I'ma little loathe to, you know,
make any broad statements aroundwhat will or won't work.
But what you can do is sharethe experiences that you had and
, going back to the snakes andladders analogy in particular,
point out these are snakes thatwe slid down, that slowed our
(27:24):
progress, that held us back.
You can avoid those snakes.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And what would you say are some of the key things,
using the snakes and laddersanalogy the many that didn't
hear you speak and present thesnakes and letters overview,
what are some of those thingsthat you would say to founders
more broadly, not just the US,but things that they should
consider as part of theirjourney, or snakes and letters
that you experienced?
Speaker 1 (27:43):
there's a series of choices or decisions that have a
series of consequences thatcome beyond it.
I think a very practical onethat was true for us is our
product had a number of aspectsto it that were reasonably
innovative and not obvious tocustomers, needed to be
explained by salespeople.
(28:04):
Now, if we're selling, and thenthe implementation of that
product had to be supported bypeople in our customer success
team, and so if we're sellinginto the US to folks that are
based over here in a US timezone, they need to be talking to
salespeople that are in theirtime zone and customer success
people in their time zone,because that's required
(28:26):
essentially to the design of theproduct.
And it was because of thoseproduct design issues that
required us to essentially buildsales teams in the US, build
success teams in the US, then,of course, build leadership in
the US and, in turn, created achallenge for us in maintaining
(28:46):
a culture both in New Zealandand the US.
In New Zealand and the US.
I think that we've had a bunchof success.
I think that it could have beeneasier and simpler had we built
a product that didn't requireas much human support as ours
did at that stage.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
That's super interesting.
I want to turn the attention alittle bit away from Ask Nicely
and really sort of drill intoyou.
So one of the things I knowabout you is that you value
staying fit and in fact, when Ispent time with you in the US,
you seem to be always off to thegym, and that would inspire me
to get my butt off sitting downand go to the gym as well.
(29:27):
Has being fit?
That's probably a dumb question, right.
Has being fit?
That's probably a dumb question, right, but how has being fit
impacted how you do startups anddealing with the inevitable
challenges that come along as astartup founder?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, I don't know if this is true for others, but
there's a quite obvioustherapeutic benefit and need for
me and being able to go to thegym.
One of the things that I do isI go to these boxing classes and
we're sitting there hitting aheavy bag.
When you're spending your dayon phone calls and Zoom calls
and emails and meetings, that'sa cerebral activity.
It's largely sedentary.
There's not a lot of movement.
Getting into the gym, whetherit's throwing some weight around
(30:08):
or getting in behind a bag orgoing for a run this is the
antidote to that office faceinteraction, which to me is just
incredibly important, andloosening up the mind and being
able to switch out of thatoffice face interaction.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Do you find you get your best insights and your
almost the best ideas when youare punching the bag or you're
in the gym or you're working out, or do you just get out of your
head in the gym or you'reworking out, or do you just get
out of your head in those timesand you're actually not thinking
about what you do from a workpoint of view?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, for me it's about being out of your head and
also just recognising andreminding yourself.
You know, often indirectly,that you're more than just a
startup founder.
I think there is a risk for usin these roles that we form our
own personal identity so tightlyaround the business that we
(31:00):
live, sleep, eat and breatheevery day, and I think that
there's an injustice that we doto the people around us our
family, our friends andourselves when you define
yourself that narrowly, it'simportant to switch out of that
context and shock the body intobeing something else, even if it
is for half an hour, an hour onthat day.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I'm pleased you raised that, because actually,
that sense of identity that weoften establish, we connect it
to the brand of the businesswe're building.
And I actually spoke about thatas I was a guest on a podcast
and I spoke about that quiteopenly, about how I struggled
with that in a previous startupand as the startup grew and
(31:41):
became very large and successful, I attached my identity.
But then the business had ahuge challenge and nearly blew
up, and that almost blew up myidentity.
So it was a great learning, butwhy not to do that?
Yes, you are a startup founder.
Yes, you are the co-founder ofAsk, nicely, but you are also
(32:03):
Aaron Ward, father, husband,boxer, brother.
You've got all these otheridentities that you have.
So I'm super stoked that youmentioned that.
Now, one of the things about youis you're quite a humble guy,
so I will imagine when I ask youthis question, you're probably
going to bat it away.
But I like to ask this questionof everybody and what do you
(32:23):
think your superpower is?
Is it that early productideation piece that you talked
about?
You're happiest when you'rebuilding something new.
You love that early stage ofthe startup or is it something
else?
Where is your zone of genius touse?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
that phrase.
Well, I think genius isoverstating it.
I think I go back to that ideathat there's a minimum level of
insanity required.
So I don't think you want toover-credit people too much
there, and I think it'simportant also to recognise that
if we do find some success,there's a lot of luck that
happens along the way as well, alot of serendipity, a lot of
(33:00):
intersection, mentioning thatthe early supporters of us and I
said it was so critical ingetting us started.
So, yeah, I think it'sdangerous to over-credit an
individual in any way here, butit's true that for me that I am
most energized when I'm outthere proving a point around
something new that most peopledisagree with.
(33:21):
One of my favorite quotes is theHan Solo one.
You know, never tell me theodds.
You know, if you knew the oddsof success on starting a startup
, you wouldn't do it.
There's a level of crazinessrequired, but I'm attracted to
it.
I like those odds.
I think that's how we discoverthe new, that's how we evolve as
a species.
When we're out there, you know,trying to prove a new formula,
(33:42):
a new theory.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
So that's what I like is there something that you
strongly believe in that youknow?
Very few people do you know?
You're saying you're inspiredby that when there's an aspect
of things you believe in quitestrongly and that you're going
to prove to others that this istrue, this is right, whether
it's a controversial belief orsomething you strongly hold.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I'm just attracted to controversy in general.
Again, there's a definition Iquite like, which is controversy
is the clash of conventionalwisdom and common sense.
I suffer, hopefully, from ahealthy level of discontent for
the status quo.
I think there are things outthere that there are plenty of
things that can be and should beimproved, and we need founders
(34:27):
that are prepared to get outthere and swing the bat and miss
regularly if we're going toadvance ourselves.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's so true.
There's a great quote from Ithink it was George Bernard Shaw
, and he has a quote thatprobably needs a little bit of
updating to bring it into the21st century, but it's something
along the lines of all progressrelies on the unreasonable man.
Obviously we would say man orwoman, human, the unreasonable
human, somebody who doesn'tnecessarily ascribe to the
(34:54):
status quo, so by definitionthey're actually being
unreasonable.
They can see something thatmaybe others can't see and the
progress true progress, realprogress it always comes from
the outside.
It always comes from thefringes.
It's very rarely tied in beingreasonable.
I always think that's a coolquote.
(35:16):
Finally, in terms of how youget inspired, is there something
that you do that you listen to,whether it's a podcast or you
read, listen to music to getinspiration for the journey of
being a startup founder?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
to get inspiration for the journey of being a
startup founder.
Well, I do enjoy reading thestories of people that are out
there doing building audaciousbusinesses that challenge the
status quo.
Absolutely I agree with thepoint around unreasonableness.
So the book that I've mostrecently read that I really
enjoyed, by the way, isUnreasonable Hospitality.
(35:52):
I recommend that to anyone.
Put that on the list.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You're the second person in about three or four
days to recommend that, and Iguess the general concept is
about customer service and goingabove and beyond what people
would expect, regardless of thetype of business, just to
completely literally beunreasonable in how you are
serving people.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's raising the standard, breaking the previous
record, proving to yourself andto others that we can do better
than what we did before.
That's what I took out of thatbook and, yeah, there's a lot to
be inspired by there.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
That's fantastic, aaron.
You are such an inspiring guyand, as I say, I think there are
a lot to be inspired by there.
That's fantastic, aaron.
You are such an inspiring guyand, as I say, I think there are
a lot of people that havefollowed your journey and
continue to follow your journey,even though you're up in the US
, and a lot of Kiwi founders,particularly, that are following
you.
I will ensure that there's waysfor people to connect with you
on LinkedIn and also through Ask.
(36:50):
Nicely.
I'll put those into the shownotes.
I on LinkedIn and also throughAsk.
Nicely.
I'll put those into the shownotes.
I just want to say thank youfor the time that you've given
today.
You are an inspiration, so keepbeing you and keep leading in
the authentic way that you do.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I've enjoyed it.
I agree with what you saidearlier you can't be what you
can't see, and if more peopleare going to see the
opportunities that are on offer,we need to get better at
telling the stories.
So thank you for what you'redoing and helping people like me
tell the stories of what we'vebeen involved in.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Well said, it's been a genuine pleasure, so thank you
.
I suffer, hopefully, from a healthy level of
discontent for the status quo.
I think there are things outthere that there are plenty of
things that can be and should beimproved, and we need founders
that are prepared to get outthere and swing the bat and miss
Aaron is the co-founder andchief strategy officer of Ask
Nicely.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
There's a great quote from I think it was George
Bernard Shaw, and he has a quoteall progress relies on the
unreasonable man, somebody whodoesn't necessarily ascribe to
the status quo.
So by definition they'reactually being unreasonable.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Never tell me the odds.
If you knew the odds of successon starting a startup, you
wouldn't do it.
There's a level of crazinessrequired, but I'm attracted to
it.
I like those odds.
I think that's how we discoverthe new, that's how we evolve as
a species, when we're out theretrying to prove a new formula,
a new theory.
So that's what I like.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:23):
.
My guest today is Aaron Ward.
Let's get on with it and hearfrom our next guest.
My guest today is Aaron Ward.
Aaron is the co-founder andchief strategy officer of Ask
Nicely, and I'll get Aaron totalk a little bit about what Ask
Nicely does shortly.
I met Aaron when I was in theUS at Sasta back in September of
2023 and was just super, superimpressed with the guy, and I've
had a few conversations withhim.
(01:44):
We've even done a brekkie atsome random little airport in
San Mateo in California.
He is one very, very impressiveindividual.
Aaron, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Thanks, Greg, Good to be here with you.
I think with that intro you'reway too overhyped me, but I'll
do my best to live up to atleast some of what you said.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
I don't think anybody could overhype you, mate, and
we were just sort of chattingoffline and just riffing as you
do.
One thing I know about you,mate, is I know that you went to
Long Bay College and I'm aRangitoto College boy, which,
for those listening outside ofNew Zealand Aotearoa as we like
to call New Zealand here theyare rival high schools.
(02:24):
They're about, I don't know,maybe 10, 20.
Fierce rivals they are.
They are, they're like fiercerivals.
And so as soon as I knew thatAaron was a Long Bay College boy
, I kind of had to kind of up mygame, actually a little bit.
But, aaron, I'd love to kind ofstart with that and start
before we get into the story ofAsk Nicely and the journey
(02:45):
around that, I'd love to know alittle bit about your origin
story.
We can even go back before LongBay College if you like.
Were you one of those kids thatwas always destined to be an
entrepreneur?
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Well, if I was, goodness knows, I didn't realize
that and I think that my owncareer is a bit of a drunkard's
walk.
It's never a straight line,certainly wasn't for me.
You know, I believe in sort ofthe roomba approach to strategy.
You know the little robotvacuum cleaner that, uh, you
know, it sort of keeps buttinginto walls until it finds the
path that it needs to, it needsto take, you know, and I look
(03:16):
back over my career in historyand try to make sense of it in
the rearview mirror and there'sno sense to be.
You know, there's nothing sortof necessarily logical.
I've hit a bunch of brick wallsthrough my time and, you know,
found myself, you know,fortunately landing in startup
land in a role in a company thatI really enjoy and am energized
(03:37):
by.
But to make sense of the pathI've got here, I think that's
kind of tricky.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
You grew up in Auckland, though, and spent most
of your time, I think, livingin Auckland, and then we'll talk
about the US shortly, where youare now as we record this, but
tell us a little bit about thatearly origin story for us,
nicely.
I have heard this.
I've heard you speak atSouthern SAS, and you gave an
amazing presentation, actuallyat Southern SAS in Auckland back
(04:04):
whenever that was, you know,six months ago, but I would love
to hear that early origin story, for there's so many people
that are going to be listeningto this haven't heard how Ars
Nicely got started.
I'd love to kind of dig intothat a little bit.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah well, I guess we saw an opportunity when I say
we myself and my co-founder,john Bellinger saw an
opportunity to really change theway that service businesses in
particular deliver an awesomeexperience to their customers on
a daily basis.
And it started with a fairlysimple insight, which is in the
(04:37):
service sector, you can, as acustomer, go into a store and
get an awesome experience oneday and then the following day
get an awful experience.
It could be the same store,it's the same product, it's the
same price.
What changes is the humors, thefrontline worker behind it
that's serving you.
And so we thought to ourselveswell, goodness, how is it that
you happen to go aboutmotivating a frontline worker to
(04:59):
deliver a great experience tocustomers every day?
And we thought about frontlineworkers.
Like, they don't get a lot offeedback right, and chances are,
the feedback that they do getfrom customers is when things go
wrong.
And we applied a bit ofbehavioral psychology that I
think we all lived as humansback when we were four years old
in kindergarten, and there'sthat moment when, you know, the
(05:21):
teacher puts a little gold starbehind your name and says well
done, you've done well theretoday.
And we said, well, goodness, Iremember how that felt as a
four-year-old and then, 40 yearslater, I still feel that
feeling when somebody comes tome and says, hey, aaron did a
great job on that Well done.
It's extremely motivating andenergizing.
And we said, well, goodness, ifwe could make that moment, make
(05:43):
that feeling a part of aday-to-day for people in
frontline roles.
We think that can make adifference to the experiences
that they're delivering tocustomers.
So a much shorter way ofdescribing what Ask Nicely is is
about getting feedback fromcustomers after they've had an
experience with a brand andmaking sure that feedback gets
directly to the person thatdelivered that experience, so
(06:05):
that they know that what they domatters and is valued by the
customer and appreciated by them, but also by the leaders in the
organization who have anopportunity to sort of catch you
in the act of doing thingsright.
So I mean, that's really thejob or the mission of us nicely.
And the way we, you know,looked at that and said, well,
we can actually build a globalbusiness.
This is a massive global marketopportunity that nobody is
(06:28):
really tackling.
But at the time we were twoguys sitting in a garden shed in
Ponsonby in Auckland.
We had this sort of reasonablyaudacious vision to tackle.
We said I'm going to crack intoit as two guys with a big, bold
idea and thankfully that's gonepretty well for us.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
And from memory you've told the story before
I've heard you talk about thispublicly where you and John I
don't think you were in businesstogether at this point when you
first, you know, just beforeyou started, and I think he made
some comment to you around thelong lines of and I'll screw
this up, I'm sure, but it wassomething along the lines of and
I'll screw this up, I'm sure,but it was something along the
lines of if you do come up witha great idea, then you know I'd
(07:07):
love to be in business with you.
And then, when you did get theidea, he started work on it
immediately and I think he had aalmost like a V1 out within 24,
48 hours or something hestarted coding that day from
memory.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
That's right.
Yeah, well, I think I've knownJohn for 10 years and he's a
particularly special individual.
He's got that sort of mixtureof Steve Jobs and Wozniak.
He's a mad inventor and when Imet him and first did a couple
of projects with him, wediscovered very quickly that we
had an uncommon chemistrytogether.
Where each of us was weak, theother had a strength and we were
(07:47):
able to, you know, togetherperform, you know, to sort of
complete each other a bit.
And I knew from that moment thatI wanted to go into some form
of business with the guy, justdidn't know what.
And over the you know, thecourse of the 10 years of
knowing each other, I would walkup to his house and I would
pitch various ideas to him andhe would very quickly dismiss
(08:11):
each and every one of them anddispatch me away and tell me
don't come back unless you havea decent idea.
And after literally 10 years ofthis back and forth, I rocked
up and he told me later.
He said look, I was going totell you don't come back again.
The two of us went and sat downin a bar on Ponson Road and I
(08:32):
shared the basic idea that wasto become artists nicely.
And he said finally, you'vecome up with a decent idea, I
like it, I'll build it.
I'm over the moon excited atthis.
And I said awesome when he saidtonight he said stop talking,
you talk too much, I'm goinghome to start coding.
And he literally picked up hisMacBook and it was 11.30 on a
(08:53):
Tuesday night and he walked homefrom that bar and literally
started building the prototypeon that night that's insane and
I also heard you tell a storyabout.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
You had a potential customer quite a large customer
I think on a phone call and youwere both working in the garage
at this point and he overheardthe conversation and I think
they said something like, haveyou got this particular feature?
And you said, or he said, yes,we do, even though you didn't.
And he started building thefeature almost while you were on
(09:23):
the phone call and it was, Iguess it's that early
responsiveness, that is thatembedded into the DNA of Ask.
Nicely that you know.
Let's make this happen, let'ssatisfy what the customer wants.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Yeah, it absolutely is.
So we have a set of values inthe organization.
One of those is love yourfeedback.
Now, of course, our business isbuilt around collecting
feedback from customers andgetting that to the front line,
but love your feedback is moreof a rallying cry for how we win
as an organisation.
Now, so if I'm open toreceiving feedback from my
(09:57):
teammates and from people in theorganization, chances are I'll
improve my game over time.
So that's really reallyimportant.
But the flip side of that coinis, if I'm sharing my feedback
with the people around me, theyget the opportunity to lift
their game as well.
And so it's that dynamic ofbeing able to give and receive
feedback with love and for usall to improve that helps us win
(10:19):
as a business.
And so that story that youshared and I remember that call
because I was the one talking tothe customer and he said to me
this product was great, do youintegrate with deskcom, which at
the time I think we only hadone or two integrations.
I knew that we certainly didn'thave deskcom, but I repeated the
question out loud because Johnwas sitting opposite me on the
(10:40):
same desk and I knew that if Iasked the question out loud do
we integrate with deskcom?
That John would jump onto theAPI docs for deskcom and find
out whether or not we couldintegrate with it, which is
exactly what he did, and he gaveme a thumbs up within seconds,
which was enough to me topromise to the customer that,
(11:00):
yes, that integration did existand if he wanted to sign up and
give me the credit card number,that I'd take it and ship him
the instructions that afternoon,which is exactly what we did.
John built that integration ina couple of hours and we won the
customer, and that story hasoccurred again and again and
again in different formsthroughout the life cycle of the
business, which is just thatidea of feedback in action and
(11:24):
being able to be, like you say,responsive.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And so you got started, and you were still in
the garage and you startediterating with early customer
feedback, et cetera, andstarting to build the product
out, did you?
Speaker 1 (11:36):
bootstrap.
The garage is generous.
Remember this is a garden shed,a garden shed.
This is a garden shed, a gardenshed.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
This is a garden shed .
Did it still have implementsgarden implements in it, or had
you cleaned it out it?
Speaker 1 (11:44):
had more than that.
It wasn't clean at all, it didnot smell great.
It had an outhouse attached toit as well.
This is not salubrious.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
We are selling the software to CMOs in the US with
an orchestra of lawnmowers andbarking dogs in the background.
It's outstanding.
And so did you.
I mean, it sounds like you werebootstrapping.
Did you bootstrap for longbefore you started taking
outside capital?
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Not long.
About two or three months wasabout as much as we could
sustain ourselves.
So we both had young childrenand Auckland mortgages and no
money in the bank.
So, more through circumstance,we had to go and raise some
money to keep ourselves alive.
But also because we recognizedthat this was a global market
(12:31):
opportunity and if we were righton that, it wouldn't be long
before the big well-resourced,well-funded competitors saw it
also and chased after us, whichwas the case.
So to swing the bat hard on itand really give it a good nudge,
we definitely needed to raiseoutside venture money for us and
that was definitely a good movefor us.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And where did you go for that?
What was that process?
Was that New Zealand investors?
Was it angel groups, VCs?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, so at the time, this was 2014, and at that time
there was no VC ecosystem inNew Zealand as there is, you
know.
Of course, that's a vastlydifferent story today and there
are many, many more options.
So for us at that time, we wereout there almost literally just
door knocking, you know, folksthat we thought might have some
spare cash, and we ended upgoing to the two main angel
(13:23):
networks in New Zealand at thattime, both in Auckland and
Wellington, to raise anembarrassingly small first seed
round.
You know which got us going?
Speaker 2 (13:33):
And then did you sort of how long did that last year
before you then needed furthercash?
Or did you hit profitabilityand keep growing out of profit
from then on?
No, no, no sort of.
How long did that last yearbefore you then needed further
cash, or did you hitprofitability and keep growing
out of profit?
Speaker 1 (13:42):
from then on no, no, no.
We realised within two or threemonths that we hadn't raised
anywhere near enough.
So I think about five or sixmonths later we were out there
raising more again and we wentthrough five funding rounds to
get to the point that we're atat the moment.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
And was it a?
You know it's probably a sillyquestion, but was it a
relatively straightforwardprocess for you to raise funding
each time, or were youcontinually rejected?
How did that go?
Did it feel like that'ssomething you mastered, or was
it just continually an uphillbattle?
Speaker 1 (14:14):
We definitely got better at it over time and I
think the thing that made itfeel easier is each time that we
were raising we'd made a greatdeal of progress and we were
selling a product that wasreasonably unique and
differentiated in the market,and it was quite clear that at
each round that we raised moneythat this business was
accelerating.
So I think that made thefundraising process a lot easier
(14:38):
.
We were fortunate right fromthe start to find early
believers in the investorcommunity that became
cheerleaders for not just thebusiness and the product but
also us as founders as well andI think you know gained a lot of
early credibility because ofyou know the names and track
(14:58):
records of those that we'reattracted to to support the
business in those very earlyfunding rounds.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And you've got through.
You've grown, I guess, customernumbers and headcount
throughout the process.
At what point did you decidethat you wanted to move beyond
NZ as a market?
Was that right at the outsetthat you were thinking global
from day one, we're going to beoff to the US, et cetera, as
fast as we can, or was thatsomething that happened a few
(15:26):
years down the line?
Speaker 1 (15:27):
No, absolutely.
I mean pre-launch.
We knew that if we were goingto be a chance of building a
global business, that we had towin in the US market.
That was critical, and so, fromday one, we were buying Google
ads in the US market.
That was critical, and so, fromday one, we were buying Google
ads in the US and havingconversations with American
companies, and I think that wasa huge part of our success
making sure that we were globalfrom day one.
(15:49):
And how quickly did you jump ona plane and head to the US or
consider being based in the US,I think we visited the US for at
least the first 18 or 24 months, so we achieved a great deal
from New Zealand, more than we'dexpected to, to be honest, and
I think that whilst it wascritical for us to move over the
US and create an American baseand team, I think it's less
(16:14):
important to do that nowadaysand there is much that can be
achieved from a New Zealandbeachhead.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
So you made the decision, though, that you
personally would be the one thatwould head up conquering the US
by moving to the US.
How long ago did you moveyourself and your family up
there?
Speaker 1 (16:34):
Just over six years.
So at the start of 2018 wemoved over and we established
our marketing, sales, customersuccess, also finance and HR
teams all here in the US, andthen we kept our design, product
and engineering teams in NewZealand, and so we essentially
had a co-founder in each ofthose geographies leading those
functions and sort ofmaintaining a consistent culture
(16:56):
across both places and sort ofmaintaining a consistent culture
across both places.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
How did that go with talking to your wife to say,
okay, I think we should move tothe US and we're going to have
to move the family over there?
Was that an easy conversationto?
Have or was that one that was alittle bit more challenging?
Definitely challenging.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Used the word insane earlier on, and I subscribe to
the view that if you are goingto start a new venture, co-found
a startup like this, that thereis a minimum level of insanity
that's required.
Thankfully, my wife is quitefamiliar with my particular
level of insanity, and so when Ishared that this is something
(17:32):
that I wanted to do and that Ibelieved in and I thought was
going to be important for thebusiness but also exciting for
our family, you know, I don'tthink it was a huge shock,
because this is part of mymakeup and she did marry me, so
a little bit of it goes with theterritory.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
So essentially she was signing it off right from
the beginning.
Right From the time she marriedyou, she was saying look, aaron
, wherever you go, I'm goingwith you.
It's all going to be good.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Yeah, I think that's part of our commitment to each
other.
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, and so you set up in the northwestern states,
so up near Portland.
There Culture shock.
Or did you find it hard tosettle in and build a life there
?
Or was that quitestraightforward?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
It was quite straightforward.
One of the criteria that weapplied to choosing Portland as
a location is, you know, youmentioned culture.
We wanted to make sure that wewere able to bring the culture
that we'd created in New Zealandto Portland and have that feel
natural and authentic.
And in Portland for me this isprobably the most New
Zealand-like city of all thosethat I've visited in the US it
(18:42):
bears a lot of similarities,both geographically You've got
rivers and mountains and lakesand it's very, very green, just
like New Zealand is.
It's also a particularly niceplace.
Nobody beeps their horns on theroads.
If you're standing on the sideof the road and you look like
you might want to cross sometimetoday, the cars will literally
stop in the middle of the roadand wait for you to walk across.
(19:03):
So it's an extremely nice placeto live, with nice people that
are nice to each other, and, ofcourse, we built a brand around
being nice.
So it was a very soft landingfor us here and we've really
enjoyed that.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
And we've really enjoyed that.
And I guess one of the keythings that I always admire
about you is your connection toyour ancestry and a year or two
back won the Maori BusinessLeader of the Year at the High
Tech Awards here in New Zealand,aotearoa, and I've always been
really impressed by how you'veembraced that culture, always
(19:41):
been really impressed by howyou've embraced that culture.
How has that impacted thejourney?
For Ask Nicely, particularlygiven that you don't live in New
Zealand, you know you're notconnected as readily and as
easily to that Māori ancestrywhich I know is just so
important to you.
Does it make it harder being inthe US in that regard, or is
that something that you're ableto bring to the business in the
(20:01):
US?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Well, I guess on a personal level, yeah, it
definitely has made it harder,being detached from where I'm
from and from my heritage and myculture, which I think also it
provides all the more reasonjust to really lean into it.
You can see on the call thatI've got a fairly hefty whanau
stone hanging around my neckwhich is visible to everybody
that I come into contact withhere in the US and it's common
(20:26):
for people to come up to me andsay, hey, are you from New
Zealand?
And I get to be able to sharethat conversation and share that
story around who I am.
And it's one of the things thathas been a little bit
surprising to me actually is howhighly revered and valued the
New Zealand brand and Maoriculture is here in the US.
There's quite a high degree ofawareness but also reverence for
(20:49):
it, which I've really enjoyed.
The other part is we're veryproud to be a New Zealand
business.
It's one of our customersrecognize that and value it also
, which grants us permission tobe very explicit around our Kiwi
roots and embedding that intoour rituals within the company.
So we have weekly all-handscalls and monthly town halls
(21:13):
which include folks based herein the US, in New Zealand and in
Amsterdam.
They're all open to our Māori.
We have a patoki on our websiteand Māori values weaved into
the rituals that we have in theorganisation and I think for
many of the non-Māori in thebusiness they see that as being
something quite special thatthey're proud of.
So I think that's been valuablefor us in building a true sense
(21:38):
of unique identity as abusiness and as a team.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
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(22:24):
Let's get back to the show.
Well, well done to you, becauseI think for younger Maori
people of Maori descent, thereis a sense that you can't be it
unless you can see it, and sothey can look at you and they
can see that you came fromlittle old Long Bay College.
You're a Māori boy who is nowin the US and doing some really
(22:47):
cool things, and so that will,without you necessarily even
being aware of it, will providemassive inspiration to younger
people, and particularlyfounders, who are looking at
taking on the world and doingsomething and carving out their
space.
So I think it's a massivetestament to you and the way
that you lead in that regard andthe way that you bring Māori
(23:07):
tanga into the culture of whatyou are doing at Ask Nicely.
So you've been at this now for adecade, right?
So this is a long haul to doany kind of startup.
What's been the hardest thingthat you've had to endure
building us nicely?
What's something that maybe youjust if you'd known 10 years
ago, you'd be like, oh God, Idon't necessarily want to have
(23:29):
to deal with that.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
There's a ton of things.
I could quite easily pick one.
I think one of the interestingthings that I've wrestled with
and continue to wrestle with isone of the things that I think
really helped us be successfulin the early days, actually
turned on us and became ourkryptonite in the earlier days.
As a co-founder especially whenyou think about two guys in a
(23:53):
garden shed you need to bemultidisciplined and able to
lean into any number of areas ofthe business where they have
problems that need attention.
So in one day, I'm a sales guy,I'm a marketing guy, I'm a
finance guy and you really needto care for all the details in
an organization.
(24:13):
I think there comes a pointwhere, as the organization
benefits from that and builds alevel of scale and then requires
experts in their fields to comeand own those areas of the
business, that code needs toflip.
You need to turn from amicromanager into a macromanager
(24:33):
and if you don't make thatswitch, you can become a
bottleneck or a handbrake on theorganization because you're so
used to playing in all of thecorners of the business.
That's something that I'vepersonally struggled with.
It's hard to see that momentcoming and prepare for it, but
(24:53):
in the rear view mirror I cansee that that's something that I
wish I was a better macromanager earlier in the Ask
Nicely story.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
And so now you are, in addition to being the
co-founder with John, you're thechief strategy officer.
Is that part of what you'retalking about there?
Is that part of why you'vechosen that strategy role, so
that you're not necessarily theCEO?
You're in a different role?
Is it because you're looking atyour strengths, et cetera?
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yeah, this is the point.
Now, being over nine years intothe journey, I can look back
and say, okay, where are themoments where I was the most
impactful and where I was themost energized and where I
enjoyed it most?
And those, for me, are themoments where you're out there
designing and building the nextthing, the next phase, and I
(25:40):
think my wife would certainlyprefer this wasn't the case, but
I realized today that I dosuffer from the startup gene.
I'm most happiest when I'mdesigning and building something
new and I think, in a strategyrole, that's the nature of that
role is being able to sort oflook around corners and design
for the next phase of thecompany, and that's what I enjoy
(26:01):
.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
And I want to jump back into the US experience a
little bit.
There'll be a bunch of Kiwi andAussie founders, maybe even
some in the UK, but particularlythose in New Zealand and
Australia, who are thinkingabout the US.
Have you got any advice forthem about things they should
consider about being based there?
I know you were saying you cando a lot remotely, but once you
(26:25):
do start to enter the market,what are some things they should
be thinking about, things thatare different?
I mean, there's a lot that'sdifferent, right, but what would
you be advising a founder to beconsidering if they are
thinking of putting boots on theground in the US?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Well, I think the most practical advice that I can
give is get really close topeople that have done it.
You know, as a business that'sbuilt on feedback, one of the
things that we struggled withbecause of the time that we were
launching was finding othersignificance in the US.
Now, much of the success thatwe did have was in talking to
folks that had been there.
And you've got to be a littlebit careful because I think
(27:00):
sometimes the advice that othersmight give you is a little bit
closer to nostalgia, becausethat answer was right for them
at that time and that's why I'ma little loathe to, you know,
make any broad statements aroundwhat will or won't work.
But what you can do is sharethe experiences that you had and
, going back to the snakes andladders analogy in particular,
point out these are snakes thatwe slid down, that slowed our
(27:24):
progress, that held us back.
You can avoid those snakes.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
And what would you say are some of the key things,
using the snakes and laddersanalogy the many that didn't
hear you speak and present thesnakes and letters overview,
what are some of those thingsthat you would say to founders
more broadly, not just the US,but things that they should
consider as part of theirjourney, or snakes and letters
that you experienced?
Speaker 1 (27:43):
there's a series of choices or decisions that have a
series of consequences thatcome beyond it.
I think a very practical onethat was true for us is our
product had a number of aspectsto it that were reasonably
innovative and not obvious tocustomers, needed to be
explained by salespeople.
(28:04):
Now, if we're selling, and thenthe implementation of that
product had to be supported bypeople in our customer success
team, and so if we're sellinginto the US to folks that are
based over here in a US timezone, they need to be talking to
salespeople that are in theirtime zone and customer success
people in their time zone,because that's required
(28:26):
essentially to the design of theproduct.
And it was because of thoseproduct design issues that
required us to essentially buildsales teams in the US, build
success teams in the US, then,of course, build leadership in
the US and, in turn, created achallenge for us in maintaining
(28:46):
a culture both in New Zealandand the US.
In New Zealand and the US.
I think that we've had a bunchof success.
I think that it could have beeneasier and simpler had we built
a product that didn't requireas much human support as ours
did at that stage.
Speaker 2 (29:06):
That's super interesting.
I want to turn the attention alittle bit away from Ask Nicely
and really sort of drill intoyou.
So one of the things I knowabout you is that you value
staying fit and in fact, when Ispent time with you in the US,
you seem to be always off to thegym, and that would inspire me
to get my butt off sitting downand go to the gym as well.
(29:27):
Has being fit?
That's probably a dumb question, right.
Has being fit?
That's probably a dumb question, right, but how has being fit
impacted how you do startups anddealing with the inevitable
challenges that come along as astartup founder?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Well, I don't know if this is true for others, but
there's a quite obvioustherapeutic benefit and need for
me and being able to go to thegym.
One of the things that I do isI go to these boxing classes and
we're sitting there hitting aheavy bag.
When you're spending your dayon phone calls and Zoom calls
and emails and meetings, that'sa cerebral activity.
It's largely sedentary.
There's not a lot of movement.
Getting into the gym, whetherit's throwing some weight around
(30:08):
or getting in behind a bag orgoing for a run this is the
antidote to that office faceinteraction, which to me is just
incredibly important, andloosening up the mind and being
able to switch out of thatoffice face interaction.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Do you find you get your best insights and your
almost the best ideas when youare punching the bag or you're
in the gym or you're working out, or do you just get out of your
head in the gym or you'reworking out, or do you just get
out of your head in those timesand you're actually not thinking
about what you do from a workpoint of view?
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, for me it's about being out of your head and
also just recognising andreminding yourself.
You know, often indirectly,that you're more than just a
startup founder.
I think there is a risk for usin these roles that we form our
own personal identity so tightlyaround the business that we
(31:00):
live, sleep, eat and breatheevery day, and I think that
there's an injustice that we doto the people around us our
family, our friends andourselves when you define
yourself that narrowly, it'simportant to switch out of that
context and shock the body intobeing something else, even if it
is for half an hour, an hour onthat day.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
I'm pleased you raised that, because actually,
that sense of identity that weoften establish, we connect it
to the brand of the businesswe're building.
And I actually spoke about thatas I was a guest on a podcast
and I spoke about that quiteopenly, about how I struggled
with that in a previous startupand as the startup grew and
(31:41):
became very large and successful, I attached my identity.
But then the business had ahuge challenge and nearly blew
up, and that almost blew up myidentity.
So it was a great learning, butwhy not to do that?
Yes, you are a startup founder.
Yes, you are the co-founder ofAsk, nicely, but you are also
(32:03):
Aaron Ward, father, husband,boxer, brother.
You've got all these otheridentities that you have.
So I'm super stoked that youmentioned that.
Now, one of the things about youis you're quite a humble guy,
so I will imagine when I ask youthis question, you're probably
going to bat it away.
But I like to ask this questionof everybody and what do you
(32:23):
think your superpower is?
Is it that early productideation piece that you talked
about?
You're happiest when you'rebuilding something new.
You love that early stage ofthe startup or is it something
else?
Where is your zone of genius touse?
Speaker 1 (32:37):
that phrase.
Well, I think genius isoverstating it.
I think I go back to that ideathat there's a minimum level of
insanity required.
So I don't think you want toover-credit people too much
there, and I think it'simportant also to recognise that
if we do find some success,there's a lot of luck that
happens along the way as well, alot of serendipity, a lot of
(33:00):
intersection, mentioning thatthe early supporters of us and I
said it was so critical ingetting us started.
So, yeah, I think it'sdangerous to over-credit an
individual in any way here, butit's true that for me that I am
most energized when I'm outthere proving a point around
something new that most peopledisagree with.
(33:21):
One of my favorite quotes is theHan Solo one.
You know, never tell me theodds.
You know, if you knew the oddsof success on starting a startup
, you wouldn't do it.
There's a level of crazinessrequired, but I'm attracted to
it.
I like those odds.
I think that's how we discoverthe new, that's how we evolve as
a species.
When we're out there, you know,trying to prove a new formula,
(33:42):
a new theory.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
So that's what I like is there something that you
strongly believe in that youknow?
Very few people do you know?
You're saying you're inspiredby that when there's an aspect
of things you believe in quitestrongly and that you're going
to prove to others that this istrue, this is right, whether
it's a controversial belief orsomething you strongly hold.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I'm just attracted to controversy in general.
Again, there's a definition Iquite like, which is controversy
is the clash of conventionalwisdom and common sense.
I suffer, hopefully, from ahealthy level of discontent for
the status quo.
I think there are things outthere that there are plenty of
things that can be and should beimproved, and we need founders
(34:27):
that are prepared to get outthere and swing the bat and miss
regularly if we're going toadvance ourselves.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's so true.
There's a great quote from Ithink it was George Bernard Shaw
, and he has a quote thatprobably needs a little bit of
updating to bring it into the21st century, but it's something
along the lines of all progressrelies on the unreasonable man.
Obviously we would say man orwoman, human, the unreasonable
human, somebody who doesn'tnecessarily ascribe to the
(34:54):
status quo, so by definitionthey're actually being
unreasonable.
They can see something thatmaybe others can't see and the
progress true progress, realprogress it always comes from
the outside.
It always comes from thefringes.
It's very rarely tied in beingreasonable.
I always think that's a coolquote.
(35:16):
Finally, in terms of how youget inspired, is there something
that you do that you listen to,whether it's a podcast or you
read, listen to music to getinspiration for the journey of
being a startup founder?
Speaker 1 (35:31):
to get inspiration for the journey of being a
startup founder.
Well, I do enjoy reading thestories of people that are out
there doing building audaciousbusinesses that challenge the
status quo.
Absolutely I agree with thepoint around unreasonableness.
So the book that I've mostrecently read that I really
enjoyed, by the way, isUnreasonable Hospitality.
(35:52):
I recommend that to anyone.
Put that on the list.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
You're the second person in about three or four
days to recommend that, and Iguess the general concept is
about customer service and goingabove and beyond what people
would expect, regardless of thetype of business, just to
completely literally beunreasonable in how you are
serving people.
Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
It's raising the standard, breaking the previous
record, proving to yourself andto others that we can do better
than what we did before.
That's what I took out of thatbook and, yeah, there's a lot to
be inspired by there.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
That's fantastic, aaron.
You are such an inspiring guyand, as I say, I think there are
a lot to be inspired by there.
That's fantastic, aaron.
You are such an inspiring guyand, as I say, I think there are
a lot of people that havefollowed your journey and
continue to follow your journey,even though you're up in the US
, and a lot of Kiwi founders,particularly, that are following
you.
I will ensure that there's waysfor people to connect with you
on LinkedIn and also through Ask.
(36:50):
Nicely.
I'll put those into the shownotes.
I on LinkedIn and also throughAsk.
Nicely.
I'll put those into the shownotes.
I just want to say thank youfor the time that you've given
today.
You are an inspiration, so keepbeing you and keep leading in
the authentic way that you do.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
I've enjoyed it.
I agree with what you saidearlier you can't be what you
can't see, and if more peopleare going to see the
opportunities that are on offer,we need to get better at
telling the stories.
So thank you for what you'redoing and helping people like me
tell the stories of what we'vebeen involved in.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Well said, it's been a genuine pleasure, so thank you
.
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