May 12, 2024 • 44 mins
When we peel back the layers of our lives, we often find shared battles and common ground in the quest for mental wellness. Today, we sit down with the remarkably open Andy Kerr, who walks us through his journey of loss, depression, and the eventual solace he finds in helping others and in the written word. His story is a poignant reminder that while suffering may be deeply personal, the struggle with mental health is a universal challenge that unites us all.
Writing proved to be Andy's lifeline, a therapeutic outlet that eventually took the shape of his book "We All Change." He recounts the rollercoaster of emotions that led to its creation and discusses the surprising realizations about life's purpose that emerged from his introspective chapters. This conversation is an honest exploration of the struggles with mental health, the continuous management of well-being, and the importance of supportive dialogues that shatter the stigma surrounding mental health issues.
Andy's resilience also shines through in his passion for running, which goes much beyond a mere physical pursuit. Each stride for Andy represents a step in his ongoing recovery, echoing the determination and community found in the running scene. The discussion doesn't shy away from the physical challenges and injuries that come with age, yet it's imbued with optimism about setting and achieving new goals. Andy's narrative is a testament to the strength found in vulnerability and a beacon of hope for those navigating the murky waters of mental health.
You can read Andy's writings via his Substack page.
His charity website can be found here or email defirippleeffects@gmail.com.
If you'd like to purchase a copy of his book (remember a donation is made to the I AM HOPE charity whenever a copy of a book is purchased) then you can contact Andy at DifferentPeopleBooks@gmail.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
I definitely believe that the best way to help
yourself be better is to findways of helping other people.
Those things around and in thefirst list there's those things
around, you know, being a betterhusband, being a better father,
being a better son.
You know there's being present,being at work.
There's some personal things onthat list around looking after
my health in various differentways.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I've known Andy for a few years now and have always
been impressed with the workthat he is doing to make a real
difference in and around mentalhealth.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
If you write a book about mental health and then
people start to use it, youbecome sort of responsible for
their response to it.
It's different to writing anovel.
People can like a novel or notlike a novel and everything else
.
This is about me.
It doesn't matter whether youlike it or not, it is what it is
.
And if you pull things out thatmight be useful to you then
which was then Marie Claire'spoint well, what if it helps
(00:58):
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:23):
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Now back to the show.
My guest today is Andy Kerr.
I've known Andy for a few yearsnow and have always been
impressed with who he is but,most importantly, with how open
he is around the journey thathe's been on and continues to be
(02:31):
on, and the work that he isdoing to make a real difference
in and around mental health, anda variety of other things which
we will get onto.
I want to start thisconversation, I guess, andy,
just by firstly just welcomingyou, andy.
It is absolutely superb to haveyou on the show here today.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
This is a great opportunity.
I've done a couple of thesebefore, but they've really been
sort of bit parts, but this isthe first time I've done a
full-on interview, so I'm reallylooking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, look, I was super impressed when I took a
look at your book.
You've got a book out called weAll Change and there was a line
in that book that kind ofreally caught me off guard and
when I read it I thought Ialmost sort of choked up a
little bit.
So there was something in thereabout, early on in the book,
(03:19):
that your first wife, yvonne,passed away and she was in
hospice for a while and then onthe day she passed away you
weren't with her when she diedbecause you'd been drinking and
you couldn't drive.
It wasn't safe to drive.
I don't even know where tostart on something like this.
Maybe a good place to start isjust for you to give us maybe a
(03:41):
bit of a story.
Let's start with why did youwrite the book?
What was?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
behind that.
So I'd had I guess I'd hadissues with mental health and
mental health problems for anumber of years.
My mum talks about me behavingstrangely for a while, but you
know, some of it was just putdown to being a teenager, I
guess.
But I would go into some oddphases.
It's not in the book, but weused to have funky washing up
(04:08):
time and for funky washing uptime I had to play certain music
, there had to be certain trackson, and I can remember having
what would be described now as ateenage hissy fit, I guess, if
I couldn't get the music on atthe same time as we were doing
the washing up.
But it's part of this obsessivenature of mine and it tends to
drive me into places that Ishouldn't go.
So I had it for a long timeback in 2018.
(04:32):
Did a trip to Jakarta for work,came back and for the first
time I just really struggledwith jet lag and like two weeks
later I was still reallystruggling.
After four weeks I still wasn'tsleeping and went into the GP
and she made the mistake ofasking me how I was and I just
sort of fell apart there and youknow, there in sort of the on
the way to her office, gotsigned off and then it sort of
(04:54):
gradually got better and Ithought things were going okay.
And then I had an accident.
Um, at CrossFit tore mypectoral muscles off my left
shoulder and put on a load ofweight.
Because you sit around, youdon't do very much for a while,
whereas you're trying to getbetter with any sort of major
sort of muscle and shoulderinjury.
And it came back and it wasn'treally, really wasn't well.
This was now 2020.
And I had.
(05:17):
I went back to see my counsellorand on December the 14th the
date sticks in my head.
I don't think this date willever, will ever, go away.
My counsellor said to me at theend of our session.
She said thank you for being soopen and honest with me.
And I started laughing and Ithought well, I've been to like
multiple sessions with you.
What have I done that made yousay that and because?
(05:38):
And she said well, that's thefirst time you've ever described
what happens to you.
I'd always talked about, we'dalways got into conversation in
our sessions around where I'dbeen, the things I'd done and
all that sort of stuff, but thiswas the first time I actually
described what physicallyhappens to me, because there was
, maybe there is still a sort ofa physical manifestation.
(05:59):
So that then drove me to look upwhat was wrong with me.
I couldn't find it.
I went to various mental healthself-help type websites,
including Mind in the UK andmental health websites here in
New Zealand and other placesaround the world, and I found
some categories which went fromnot that I'm putting anybody on
(06:22):
a scale here, I'm that.
You know there might have beenschizophrenia at the top and and
mild anxiety at the bottom,that sort of thing and then.
But what I could find was bitsof me in bits of the
descriptions.
So I thought, well, I betterwrite it down.
So I rather manically I knowthat's a probably a bad word to
use, but it was a bit sort ofhead down focused whilst I was
(06:44):
typing it more felt like I wasscribbling, and scribbling
really hard.
If you've, you can sort of getthat picture.
And I was so anyway so I wrotethis, this piece, and I thought,
right, okay, good job, that'sdone, try to get it finished
before Christmas, because wewere running up to Christmas
then and I wanted it to be outof my head so that we could
enjoy Christmas.
We got got people coming aroundand that sort of stuff, so I
(07:10):
got it written and I showed itto people, and I showed it to
Tracy, my wife, and a couple ofother people who knew that I
wasn't well, and I gave it toLorraine, my counsellor, and a
few others, and the feedback wasinteresting.
Lorraine immediately rang meand said are you okay Thinking
that?
Because there's a quote I useat the end of the first chapter,
which is she thought maybe Iwasn't that well and maybe I had
some form of plan, and Iassured her I didn't.
(07:31):
It was more a case of the factthat these things have been
running around in my head for along time.
So the quote that I'm referringto is from Doctor who, and when
I was not well, from sort of2018 through until 2020 and a
little bit beyond, I watchedDoctor who back to back
obsessively and watched fromwhen it got rejuvenated in 2005
all the way through to I'm goingto get my timing wrong, but
(07:53):
probably the Peter Capolziseries.
I watched it four times all theway through.
I don't know how many episodesthere is, but it's quite a few,
and a lot of it just sort ofstuck with me.
So what happened was I thoughtright, okay, well, I need to get
better.
If I can describe what's goingwrong with me, I've always been
a person that tried to just getstuff done, and not being able
(08:13):
to solve this was distressing.
I guess it sort of becomesself-compounding, if you like.
You think about it too much,which then makes it worse.
So then you think about it somemore, which then makes it worse
.
So then you think about it somemore and you can't.
It's very difficult necessarilyto break that cycle.
What I found was that maybewriting things and things down.
So over Christmas you know,christmas day was sort of pretty
(08:35):
busy, boxing Day was busy Ithen got my notebook out and I
started to write down what wasimportant to me, and it was a
little bit prompted by the againmentioned in the book.
I talk about Alistair Campbell,who used to be Tony Blair's
head of sort of head of comms Iforget what his official title
was, and I'd heard someinterviews and read some
articles about him.
(08:55):
And then my wife bought meTracy.
She bought me his book, which Iread as well, covered all that
in the book too.
But there's some things that hedid to be able to help him get
better and where I thought,right, okay, well, the first
thing to do is to write downwhat's important to me, and it
sounds really simple, but I'dactually never done it before.
(09:16):
I'd never written down whatreally is important.
And you know that thing aboutwhere people in business say to
you you know, if you have anidea, it's an idea, but if you
write it down and then put somestructure around it, it can
become a plan.
Well, that's effectively whatthat became.
Then that list of stuff where Ithought these are the things
that I need to focus on too.
I don't I try and avoid thephrase get better, because I
(09:39):
don't think you ever do.
I think it was, and it goesaway and then it comes back.
So the idea is to try and bebetter.
I'll be honest, I'm notparticularly good at that either
.
Recent experiences and then thelist became effectively a guide
for the next 18 months.
Wrote the list, started talkingabout the list, wrote the third
(10:01):
piece.
So then the list became areason for writing another piece
.
So I also wrote aboutcoincidence or the mysterious
forces at work.
I mentioned Christmas Day andgetting ready for the fact that
and I've been in chapter oneI've talked about, talked about
Alistair Campbell, talked abouthis book, talked about the
articles and everything else,and it refers back to an
(10:23):
interview that he did with KimHill on Radio New Zealand in
October 2020.
And I'd gone into the kitchenWe'd done sort of outdoor
breakfast, barbecue and whatnotand gone into the kitchen,
started to prepare stuff,flipped the radio on and it was
just before midday and just as Iwas starting to prepare stuff
for the barbecue for the eveningon came that interview again
(10:45):
and I wrote then that I don'tunderstand how the world works.
Sometimes things just sort ofsurprise you.
You know for for what.
Weeks and weeks before I'd hadum Alistair's interview and his
articles and that sort of stuffrunning through my head and then
I go in in a quiet moment andstart to do some stuff and I
didn't know the interview wasgoing to be on.
I had no way I mean I couldhave if I was that avid a Radio
(11:07):
New Zealand listener.
Maybe I'd have been aware of it, but no, so it was sort of I
don't know a serendipitousmoment, but it then prompted me
to write the second chapter.
And then I wrote a thirdchapter about reading his book.
And then I wrote a fourthchapter.
A mutual friend of ours, maryClaire.
We were sitting at 10cc inMasterton having coffee and we
(11:28):
were talking about can'tremember what it was now and she
I gave her the fourth chapter,I printed it out and gave it to
her and she said to me youshould turn this into a book.
And I said to her at that timeI said Tracy said to me when I
wrote chapter one, maybe Ishould publish it.
And I'd said then that I didn'twant the responsibility.
And what I meant by that wasthat if you write a book about,
(11:48):
I feel my thoughts were.
My thoughts were if you write abook about mental health and
then people start to use it, youbecome sort of responsible for
their response to it.
It's different to writing anovel.
People can like a novel or notlike a novel and everything else
is about me.
It doesn't matter whether youlike it or not.
That's, it is what it is, andif you pull things out a bit,
that might be useful to you then, which was then maricla's point
(12:12):
?
Well, what if it helps somebodyelse?
So I said, all right, I'll havea think about it.
And she said and this is me, bythe way, as well, be really
cool to know someone who'spublished a book.
So I don't know, I don't know.
So, just so, I went back homeand then a few days later I
wrote the intro to the book,even though I'd only got like
four chapters.
Decided then I'd write 13chapters, 13 things on a list of
(12:34):
things to help me be better.
I mean 13 chapters.
And I just kept writing.
And what was the reason for it?
I wrote recently I've started asub stack as well.
That's not an advert.
I'm just sort of continuing tokeep my hand in, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Where do we find your sub stack For those people who
are listening?
Where do they go and find?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
it.
Oh yeah, no, I am Andy Kerr onsub stack.
I am Andy Kerr, so I waswriting on that and thinking
that when I was writing the book, sometimes I'd get so
frustrated about the fact thatthe words wouldn't come and I
was trying to allocate time tosit down and write.
What I've learned now and whatI find when I'm trying to write
(13:13):
pieces for the Substack is yes,I still need to allocate time
and it needs to be the rightmoment for flowing, but
generally speaking, when itstarts it just comes, and I find
now that it helps me with mythinking.
So the book took longer than Ithought it would and that's
because of that frustration oftrying to force it out of me.
(13:34):
So there's no point in metrying to do that.
But I didn't realize it at thetime and in the end I finished
writing.
I'd written the 13th chapter,thought, yep, this is all good,
this is brilliant, and I thought, oh, bugger, I've missed some
stuff out.
There were some things, becausewhat I did was originally I was
just writing these pieces forpeople around me to read and see
(13:56):
that, because lots of peopleknew I was in wealth and this
was my way of being able tocommunicate with everybody.
Well, look, these are thethings that I'm doing, this is
where I'm heading and this iswhat's happening and it's sort
of.
You can see through the writingand I've commented on this to a
couple of people that I didn'tknow I was doing it at the time
that chapter one is very.
There's no pictures, it's justwords.
(14:16):
And you're in that sort ofstate where you're very, very
focused and you've got to dosomething, whereas through the
rest of it you start to see thatI become better because the
writing gets better and lesssort of must get this done and
then it sort of keeps moving,moving through.
And the other thing is sort ofbecause and like I said, I
(14:38):
didn't realize it at the time,but I do now that the writing
was helping me think, which madethe writing better, and it
became less about, I guess, lessabout mental health more than
about.
I've posited this question tomyself very recently and I'm
going to write a piece about itbut what am I for?
And it's it's sort of the.
There's a double play to that,which is well, if I'm just here
(15:00):
to consume and do nothing else,well, what's the point in that?
That's one side to it.
So I figured I definitelybelieve that if you and it would
be very personal to each toanybody else I definitely
believe that the best way tohelp yourself be better is to
find ways of helping otherpeople.
(15:21):
Those things around, and in thefirst list there's those things
around, you know, being a betterhusband, being a better father,
being a better son.
You know there's being present,being at work.
There's some personal things onthat list around, looking after
my health in various differentways.
So there's all that sort ofstuff.
But then there was the givingback, which is around trying to
find ways to help other people.
(15:42):
It's all evolved.
It's just sort of I didn't, sowhy write a book?
I didn't have a plan to write abook, I just wrote some stuff
down and then it sort of morphedinto it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
It's really interesting because it strikes
me that it's something thatinitially started as something
that maybe was cathartic for youand it was an exercise in just
starting to construct yourthoughts and then from there,
ultimately it became a book andthen from there it has impact on
others.
Did you ever then feel thepressure, once it was published,
(16:19):
to sort of have to, as you say,you know you've written these
things down and then others usethem?
Do you now have to somehow beresponsible for that?
What did you think after it waspublished in terms of, you know
, reflections from others?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
oh, now, this is an interesting.
So it got published as in fromthe point of view of the fact
that I had boxes of books on thefirst of apr.
April 2023.
It went into editing in August2022, and it took that long to
get it.
I'll tell you what the scariestmoment that you'll ever have in
your life if you've written abook is the first time the
editor hands it back to you andthere's just a sea of red all
(16:56):
the way through it and I wasthinking, oh, what have I let
myself in for?
And I'm paying for thisprivilege as well.
So when I got, I haven't beenparticularly good at managing
myself.
So in the book I talk aboutbeing on medication and I'm
still on medication.
(17:16):
My expectation is that I'll beon medication for a long time,
and the reason why is because,for whatever reason and I know
there's been lots of discussionin the media recently last year
or so about SSRIs SSRIs are notgood for me whatsoever.
That's the reason why I've beenshaking my right hand and ended
up in an ambulance in june lastyear because of trying to
(17:37):
change drugs, and we tried totry this as all right.
Again I'm on something else.
And what the other.
What this one does is it topsup the amount of serotonin in me
.
But because I'm I've always beenthis, generally speaking, sort
of full-on, live life to thefull, work hard, blah, blah,
blah.
And when I started running, Ijust ran hard.
And what I've learned fromdoing half marathon training and
(17:59):
that sort of stuff is that Idon't have that all that
capacity to be able to doeverything that I want to do at
the same time.
Running training takes a lotout of you, burns through a lot
of resources and when, what Ifound, what I find is that
sometimes the medication doesn'tsupport me.
So, having printed the book onthe 1st of April, I didn't try
and sell any until about the10th of December.
So it was, it just came around.
(18:21):
To well, I need to allocatesome time to actually doing it.
Well, and not, what if somebodyasks me a question about the
book?
In the past, I've not beenparticularly good about talking
about it, and that's partlybecause of the past.
I've not been particularly goodabout talking about it, and
that's partly because of thefact that I've normally been
doing a lot of other things atthe same time, which means that
(18:42):
I get caught out.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Sorry to interrupt you.
Take us back to when you firstbecame aware that your mental
health wasn't great.
Was it prior to losing yourfirst wife?
Was it you wife?
Were you a much younger man atthe time when you became aware
that actually I'm strugglinghere and you talk in the book a
lot about dealing and battlingwith alcohol and drugs?
(19:05):
When did you realize, andy,you're not well, you need some
help.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Again.
It's funny, I catch myselfsaying you know, oh yes, it's in
the book.
My problem was and I'm I thinkthis happens to other people in
similar situations.
It's an actual fact, you don'tknow.
So I was so back when Yvonnedied I'd been working so hard.
We had Edward.
Edward was two and a half, no,two years old, just over two
(19:34):
years old.
Two years old, just over twoyears old.
He was just over four years oldwhen she died and she first got
ill.
So Yvonne died when I was 30,and she first got ill when I was
23.
We were going to go on holidayand she found a lump or a dent,
really went into the hospital,went to the GP.
Gp referred her straight awayto the hospital and she ended
(19:56):
the operation two days later itwas.
They'd done biopsies and bitsand pieces and found that it was
so aggressive that if theydidn't, they didn't think that.
She said, oh, we're going onholiday in two weeks.
I said, no, you're not.
And then it was the radio andchemo.
I think I wasn't well throughthat whole period, through the
seven years, and I understandwhen people step away, people in
(20:17):
that situation that I was injust go.
Sorry, I can't deal with it.
I get it, I stuck with it butthen fell off a cliff when it
all stopped, and even thoughthere was Edward to look after
and the problem was there wassome fundamental things to do,
like arrange funerals and so on.
But when it all stops andyou've got this massive gap,
that's when it comes in andtakes over, and that's what
(20:39):
happens to me.
So I went to the GP then and theGP put me on Prozac and I sort
of weaned myself off it a fewweeks later and when, and as
I've written, I actually wentlooking to see if, if, the
depression was still there.
And it didn't seem to be, andthen it didn't come back again
for another 19 years the titleof the first chapter.
(20:59):
I think the problem is thatmost people don't realize it,
which is why, if things aren'tquite right, my view is you, you
must seek help, you must talkto someone.
I was lucky.
I it's lucky.
I went to see my GP and shereferred me to Lorraine, my
counsellor, and she has beenexcellent, one of the things
(21:21):
that I'm sort of struck by isthat this is a monster.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You know depression.
This is a monster that canstrike anyone, and it doesn't
matter your social status, yourwealth, your gender, where you
live, what you do for a living.
It can strike anyone.
And you cite Alistair Campbell,tony Blair's chief of staff or
whatever he was.
You cite him, but it can get toanyone, right?
(21:47):
And I think one of the greatthings you've done in this book
and when you talk to others isjust to destigmatize it.
I mean, this is something.
It's the human body.
Neurologically we are quitecomplex.
We can get tired, we can fallon issues of addiction, we can
get obsessed about things, wecan have behavior that is not
(22:10):
ideal, and all of these thingscan kind of lead to a decreasing
circle of a lack of mentalhealth.
So I think that was one of thethings that really struck me in
your book is that this canhappen to anyone, right?
And you must see that all thetime.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It can.
And I think there's a danger inover-diagnosis and over-sharing
.
And I think that people, likewhen I started to talk about the
book, I thought, well, do I putit on LinkedIn, you know, do I?
And I thought, well, if peopleyou know I've got, I'm connected
with over 500 people and whathave you?
Most of them, to be fair, youdon't really know them that.
Well, it's the way LinkedInworks.
(22:47):
I just thought, well, what'sthe worst that could happen?
Some people go.
Well, not so sure about him anylonger.
I said, why, in the end, if wedon't talk about it but talk
about it constructively?
I think the what I was sayingthere how do I know?
How did I know to get help?
I really didn't.
I had a really good GP and areally good counsellor.
(23:08):
The GP helped me ontomedication and I think that
getting good medical help isnecessary.
Being able to talk to somebodyis necessary and for those that
are the sounding board, likeyourself, you're sitting here
and you're you're listening,you're being a good listener and
then you're picking up on thethings that I say.
You're not giving menecessarily your opinion on
(23:29):
what's happened to me oranything else.
It's more a case of well, theseare the things, the things, and
what I found was I wassurrounded.
I got very insular throughoutthe previous period before I
sort of hit this wall again,2018 and then 2020.
Reaching out and reconnectingwith people has been one thing
that's really helped, whichmeans, then, that those people
(23:52):
will be supportive of you whenyou go and put something out
there.
So some friends of mine havebeen excellent about the book
and they've posted online aboutit, and I think the key thing is
, if you think something's notquite right, then go and talk to
somebody about it, even if it'sjust walking around.
We've got Henley Lake here.
You know, marceline, we've gotHenley Lake.
Just go for a stroll aroundHangley Lake and talk to someone
(24:14):
.
It doesn't have to be aprofessional, but just sort of
get it out there, you get outinto nature and related to that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I want to pick up on three different themes, and you
talk about all three of thesethemes in the book and I've also
heard you talk about these.
So one is sleep, one isexercise and, for you, running
and CrossFit, and then the thirdone being nutrition, and we'll
finish around and talk aboutketo.
If we look at sleep, you made acomment in the book where, I
(24:42):
think it was, your counselor wassaying to you look, andy, with
all of these things that you'resort of processing in your head
and issues and things thathappen in your life, some of
them quite traumatic, you putthose things in a box and you
just keep putting them in a boxand that's kind of fine while
they stay in the box, but whenyou don't sleep properly, the
(25:06):
box opens up and these are mywords but it's almost like the
box drops on the floor andeverything comes out of the box.
Has that been your experience?
A lack of sleep really hascontributed a lot to finding
this?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It most definitely did.
It was the lack of it was myhabit of not dealing with things
and just pushing them away,putting them in this sort of
metaphorical box and lockingthem up and then go.
Well, that's how I'm going todeal with stuff that I don't
like or struggle to deal with.
So the things that I did, youknow, as Yvonne was getting
(25:42):
close towards dying, thosethings I'd locked up.
You know, I hadn't.
I never told anybody what I'ddone.
So when stuff just sort ofunraveled, and with Lorraine
talking to me and teasing outall of the things that I'd done
in the last sort of 19, 20 yearswhich had gone into this box,
(26:07):
and what I'd since then, andprobably stuff before then as
well, and I don't remember allthat we talked about in all the
sessions, but yeah, and then,basically, what she said, what
she said, look, we all do it, weall sort of park stuff, stuff.
That's difficult, but if we, ifit becomes really acute, the
problem is that if you have thattendency for stuff to
eventually unravel, it's goingto hit you really hard and
(26:29):
that's what happened to me.
So I'm fortunate.
Now the drug I'm on the tazepine.
When I take it, it frustrates.
That frustrates tracy.
I'll take my drug and then 20minutes later I'll be out.
That's me gone.
And she said it's sofrustrating I can just say, oh
you know, and then bang, I'm out.
So that helps me sleep.
(26:50):
The problem is that I don'tremember any of my dreams
usually, so I don't know if I dodream.
I'm guessing I do Every now andthen there's sort of remnants
of stuff, but I'm just gone, soI definitely get sleep now.
Is it high quality?
I don't know.
But I think the other thing toadd to the box situation is that
I don't put anything in the boxany longer now.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Tell us about that.
What do you do?
Do you just do you?
If there's something that's abit painful that you would have
avoided in the past, do you nowjust walk into it?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Look at the world we live in now.
Everything's difficult.
The way I've decided to try andgo about things now.
I still write lots of lists.
I've got got to do it.
The danger in putting thingsoff is then it becomes a mind
thing of its own rather than itjust being a task to do, and
(27:41):
there's always going to bedifficult stuff.
But I figured that I've got the55.
Now, you know, got the moredifficult stuff coming with.
You know aging parents, agingin-laws, aging relatives, myself
I'm aging, but not aged.
I'm determined to make it to 95, if not beyond, which comes
down to the health stuff andsort of looking after myself.
(28:02):
Again, I'm not always very goodat that, but that's the
intention.
So yeah, so I don't put stuffin the box.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I think there's a real lesson there for others to
hear about.
That.
Just to face into the stuff.
That's difficult, because ifyou don't, it just keeps coming
back Right.
So even if you do put it in thebox, it has a way of falling
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Let's get back to the show Then,in terms of exercise.
So you got into running.
Tell us a bit about that andthe role that exercise plays in,
(29:17):
I guess, your recovery fromdepression or the fight against
depression I don't know ifthere's ever a full recovery,
right.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
No, I don't think there is.
I think it's always hangingaround.
It's always something to manage, but getting into the running,
it became an obsession.
I ran lots and lots.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I ran a park run with.
You know, I met some greatpeople at park run bead and
martin, and and we used to.
There was a sort of competitionwith different ages, but all
(29:46):
over 50 and that sort of stuff,and it was quite.
It was quite good.
I then ran some 10ks and didquite.
You know, for me I wasn'tsomebody could go out with a bit
of a plan and try and come inat a time that I wanted and that
sort of step, and that's sortof as far as I wanted to take it
.
I then tried to run a halfmarathon and it was the half
marathon, my first one, and Imade a big splash about it on
(30:07):
LinkedIn and Facebook and that,and I'd set up the charity then.
I'd set up the charity then,and it was the first time that I
was running a half marathon,but also the first time I was
saying, look, I'm out hereraising funds and this is what
I'm going to do with it.
So it was a rubbish, rubbishhalf marathon.
I got, well, I was 16, got in16 Ks out of the 21 Ks and got
(30:28):
crammed in both legs and walkedin pain for the rest of it.
And people said to me, oh youknow, I'd have dropped out.
I just said, well, I've madesuch a fuss about it on the
internet that I better get tothe finish line.
And it's really funny.
You get within sort of 300meters of the line and there's
people going, come on, come on.
I said, oh, I've got nothing,I'm not running, I'm not running
at all, otherwise you'd.
So that then drove me to againobsessively think, well, this is
(30:54):
no good, I can't, I've got tobe able to do this.
So I sought some help from arunning coach and that then got
me through the next two or threehalf marathons and bits and
pieces and I'm going to run amarathon.
It's now going to have to benext year, because I've been off
sick from work recently becauseI tore my pectoral muscle off
my right shoulder in January.
(31:14):
Because I tore my pectoralmuscle off my right shoulder in
January, surgery in February,which has meant that I've had to
do a lot more sitting aroundand not doing very much.
But the good news is thatsomebody said to me well, how's
it going this time?
I said, well, that's okay.
I wrote a manual about what notto do, so I've been able to.
I haven't put on the 10 kilosthat I put on the last time.
I put on a little bit of weightin that, but running with both
(31:35):
of these injuries.
So now I never needed anoperation.
Before I came to New ZealandI've had two hernia operations,
one left, one right, and now twopectoral muscle repairs, one
left, one right.
So I'm now fully balanced andit's only taken it's only taken
like 18 years to become fullybalanced in New Zealand and, by
the way've got I've taken myfair share of Tafata Ora's
(31:55):
budget into my shoulders.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Your shoulder is now so you presumably can't bowl a
good googly anymore.
Like that's gone.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
No, I'm intending on going back and I'll play cricket
again.
I'll get the range of motionand everything back again.
What I can't do is go and liftreally heavy weights, so that so
because I was obsessively, Iwas doing ego lifts, and at 50,
you've got to be stupid to bedoing ego lifts.
Sorry to anybody who's doingego lifts at the age of 50, but
you've really got to.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I do ego lifts at the age of 55.
I just think it's a male thing.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I think we're stupid sometimes, yeah, so I now can't
do all those things.
But thing, I think we're stupidsometimes, yeah, so I now can't
do all those things.
But you know, maybe I could.
But there's no point in metesting where the new boundary
is.
There's just no point, becauseif I reach it and it goes wrong,
I can't fix it.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, you're screwed.
Yeah, so with the running, isthat something?
Are you still doing the running?
Are you still using that as akind of an antidote to fighting?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
depression.
I had just started trainingagain and then had the accident
playing cricket which causedthis, so I then had to stop
because, given mobilization forone.
So I've literally just startedover the past two weeks, started
running again, just treadmillstuff at the moment I had a bit
of a cold so it's not helpingwith the breathing and so on,
(33:15):
but the intention is to run a10K in November.
I'll run a half early next yearand then run a marathon next
year.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Well done.
And with the running, what'sthe benefit for you?
Is it the sort of endorphin hitand getting the blood
circulating and feeling fitterand better and therefore you
you're able to kind of push awayand feel better about yourself,
push away the depression?
Or is it the goal setting andthe personal bests and the times
(33:48):
and those sorts of things, soyou've got a goal and an
objective?
Why do you think you do?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
running it's interesting around queenstown
for the second time in novemberand it was the best planning
we'd ever done, that I'd everdone running coach, had got some
help with nutrition, did allsorts of things, had it bang on
right, but got halfway throughand it just wasn't going to
happen, me coming in fiveminutes under my PB, which had
(34:15):
been the plan.
Just wasn't going to happen.
And it was strange because Iknew I'd got another what 11 and
a half Ks to go, or whatever.
I just thought, well, what am Igoing to do?
Because, for whatever reason,even though I was eating well on
the run and everything else, itjust wasn't going to happen.
So I just thought, sod it, I'lljust enjoy it.
(34:35):
I'll wave at every camera thatI see, I'll stop and acknowledge
.
I won't stop, but I'll waveQueenstown's.
Really good, the Queenstownpeople are excellent.
They come out and they line theroute.
Some of them are ringingcowbells and you know people
yelling my name out.
So it's cool, it's really cool.
And that was my first halfmarathon where I didn't get
(34:57):
cramp, not during the race, notafter the race.
So I just thought, well, thisis a really good learning
opportunity in that case,because I've got all the way
through.
I didn't get cramp at all.
All right, didn't go howintended.
But what I do know is that Ican now get round the whole way
without getting injured.
I've learned a hell of a lotfrom it.
Then the intention was that Iwould have been running.
(35:20):
I was going to try and run theTaupo marathon in August this
year but because I learned somuch about myself, I know that
doing that intensive trainingbetween now and August is likely
to be detrimental to my mentalhealth.
So therefore, right,interesting further and ease
(35:41):
things along right.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And what about nutrition?
We sort of close on the sort ofsleep, exercise, nutrition
piece we and we talk a littlebit about keto.
I know you're a real advocatefor keto.
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
so originally I was an advocate for it because I got
obsessed with losing weightwhich is again is a trait and I
found it a really good way of oflosing weight.
Now I've learned more aboutketo and intermittent fasting
and that sort of stuff and itprobably was the reason why I
lost a lot of weight wasprobably just to through calorie
(36:15):
restriction and additionalexercise, calories in, calories
out and that sort of stuff and,very simply, that's probably
what was what was going on.
But during that period, what Ilearned, what I didn't?
I did more things aroundlearning around.
I'm somebody who's beenpre-diabetic for 16 years, so
being on a low carbohydrate dietmakes sense anyway, being I am
(36:40):
male and therefore the medicalprofession just says to you well
, you need to get your psA testdone once a year at least,
because you're going to get alarge prostate and you're more
than likely to get prostatecancer.
So I was a bit angry with themedical profession about the
fact that this is just.
Well, it's written in stone.
So I thought, well, I got that.
No, it's not going to bewritten in stone for me.
(37:01):
So I've looked at different ways.
I've been able to not onlysupport my body when I need to
do running, not only thinkingabout aging and maintaining
muscle mass and maintaining bonedensity.
So it's moved on from ketoalthough there's a reference
back to it for the charity.
But for me personally, I try tostill now eat relatively low
(37:23):
carb, I try to eat higherprotein and what I'm doing is
gearing what I eat.
I'm not doing very muchtraining at the moment but when
I am training, gearing what Ieat to support the effort that I
need to put in to be able toget the most out of the training
that I'm doing, and then alsothen respecting my body
afterwards.
(37:43):
You know it takes a good threeto four weeks for somebody of my
age who's not really a runner,to be able to get over what I've
just put myself through.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So and tell us about the charity.
What is this all about?
I know a few things, butobviously listeners don't.
So to take us through that youknow what have you created here
and why again in the book.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I was driving back from Wellington one day this was
sometime in 2021 March 20th, 21, I think and I heard an article
on radio new zealand and it wasabout a lady called charlene
tan smith who is the newzealand's top lead on
medicalized ketogenic therapyand that is mainly used in new
zealand and a lot of othercountries to help people.
(38:26):
But there's big focus from heron children or under 15s
drug-resistant epilepsy and theygo on a diet that's up to 90%
fat and then the other 10% isprotein and carbohydrate and
what they've proven is the factthat they can reduce seizures in
kids, wean them off medicationeventually for some, wean them
(38:50):
off the diet and it goes awayand stays away, but it's not
funded.
The treatment isn't really wellsupported in New Zealand and
it's not funded.
And it's also, if you canimagine, if you're on a high fat
diet and you're a child, youneed to be able to grow as well.
Your brain needs to grow, yourbody needs to grow, so therefore
it needs to be nutritious aswell as serving the purpose of
reducing your seizures.
(39:10):
So it's a diet that's manageddaily, but the macros are tested
daily and there's software outthere that that can help you
manage your recipes and makesure that the the kids getting
the right food, and lots oftesting, lots of blood tests and
everything else.
So I created the charity not tosupport Charlene and her husband
, andrew.
It was to try and support thefamilies that go on to this,
(39:33):
because you don't want to beeating lard, you need to be
eating better quality fats, andin New Zealand that tends to be
expensive.
So I thought, well, maybe whatI could do is help families that
go on to the treatment.
As it was, we ended up helpingone family and then it sort of
petered off, and that wasbecause there's only one service
(39:53):
, really strong service, in NewZealand and that's in the South
Island.
There's a little bit done outof Starship and a little bit
done out of others, but it's nota focused service.
The focused service in SouthIsland serves 30 kids, plus some
that Charlene does privately.
So we structured the charity,rejuvenated something that I'd
written back in 2017 aroundbeing able to help families in
(40:16):
the Warapa with heating theirhomes with dry firewood.
So this winter we've helpedseven families.
We'll look to do more next yearand I'm in the process of
literally there's a ton of gumover in a paddock and I'm
getting that cut up and thenwe'll process that and put away
for winter next year and we sellsome of that to be able to
raise funds and so on and soforth.
So there's that part of it.
(40:37):
And then right now justfinalizing a proposal for
creating a training program forketo dietitians in New Zealand
training program for ketodietitians in New Zealand and
what we're looking at doing isbeing able to take a model from
the UK where this has sort ofbeen done before, where they
take a dietitian and train themto become a keto dietitian and
train sort of three to fivedietitians and then over a
(41:00):
three-year period they'll beable to take on up to 30
patients each.
The payback on it is amazing.
It's about eight to 10 times onthe payback because what you're
doing is you're removing thatchild's time in ED and overnight
stays and consultants andmedication and blah, blah, blah.
So for each per annum, for eachkid that goes onto it, you save
(41:21):
conservatively $21,500.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to.
We will be sort of putting apaper out and talking to people
about it, but we need to raise.
So the charity is putting in30,000 and we need to raise
another 132 to 212.
That'll get us the training andmentoring for that period that
we need to be able to bringthose dieticians up to speed and
(41:42):
get them servicing thosepatients.
And the payback is depending onwhether it's three or five.
It's two and a half million to4.2 million over that training
period.
We're training a mentoringperiod and then so, assuming
that runs for three years, inyear four you save 3.2 million
and then it's each yearafterwards.
So it's sort of, to me, comingat it from a business
(42:04):
perspective, it sort of speaksfor itself.
I've just got to find the money.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
That is a great way to finish up and I will make
sure, actually, that there areways for people to be able to
find you and connect with thecharity and learn more about it
and be able to support thecharity.
Andy, you're an impressive guyand I want to thank you for the
way that you are open, so waythat you know you've written a
book which makes your story andsome of the lessons that come
(42:34):
out of that able to be consumedby others, and so for that I
want to thank you.
I also want to thank you justfor being open and sharing.
You're, let's call it, amiddle-aged I hate using that
phrase on myself, but I am amiddle-aged guy and a lot of on
myself, but I am a middle-agedguy and a lot of guys find it
tough to share, and yet therewill be a bunch of guys and
(42:54):
girls you know this, thisimpacts everyone but a bunch of
guys in particular who will hearyour story and resonate with it
and whatever their situationand whether they have got, you
know, issues around addictionwith alcohol or or other things
or not, and they're juststruggling, and you, in talking
(43:15):
about it in the way that you doand some of the references you
make to other people that aretalking about this in your book.
It's just super helpful forpeople.
So thank you for that.
As I say, I will make surethere are connections for people
to connect in with you and yourcharity in the show notes to
this episode.
But I just want to say thankyou, andy, because you're a top
(43:36):
guy and I suspect the95-year-old version of yourself,
because you will make it willbe able to sit back in that
armchair and feel very satisfiedwith the impact that you've
made on others.
So so thank you, mate, welldone.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Brilliant.
Thank, greg.
This has been a great chat.
Always good to see you.
One other quick thing, if I mayso if people would like to buy
the book, there's a $10 donationfrom what they from the cover
price goes to, I Am Hope, tohelp support kids with
counselling in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
That's absolutely superb and again, we'll include
that in the show notes as well.
So thank you, mate.
It's really cool Top stuff.
Thanks very much.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you
being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
(44:29):
money.
I definitely believe that the best way to help
yourself be better is to findways of helping other people.
Those things around and in thefirst list there's those things
around, you know, being a betterhusband, being a better father,
being a better son.
You know there's being present,being at work.
There's some personal things onthat list around looking after
my health in various differentways.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
I've known Andy for a few years now and have always
been impressed with the workthat he is doing to make a real
difference in and around mentalhealth.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
If you write a book about mental health and then
people start to use it, youbecome sort of responsible for
their response to it.
It's different to writing anovel.
People can like a novel or notlike a novel and everything else
.
This is about me.
It doesn't matter whether youlike it or not, it is what it is
.
And if you pull things out thatmight be useful to you then
which was then Marie Claire'spoint well, what if it helps
(00:58):
somebody else?
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:23):
.
Time is limited, so let's geton with it and hear from our
next guest.
I want to tell you a little bitabout desk work.
Desk work is your offshoringoption.
If you want to save around 50%of your total headcount cost for
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your operations or your admin,then check out desk work.
Honestly, if I was looking tostart an accounting firm again,
(01:47):
it would be a no-brainer for meto use Deskwork.
I've used offshoring teamsbefore in the past.
I got past my skepticism onbeing able to do it and it was
so phenomenally successful.
Go have a look at desk-workcobackslash, greg, and book
yourself a free discovery callto learn more about it.
(02:07):
Better still, mention my nameand get yourself some discounts.
Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Andy Kerr.
I've known Andy for a few yearsnow and have always been
impressed with who he is but,most importantly, with how open
he is around the journey thathe's been on and continues to be
(02:31):
on, and the work that he isdoing to make a real difference
in and around mental health, anda variety of other things which
we will get onto.
I want to start thisconversation, I guess, andy,
just by firstly just welcomingyou, andy.
It is absolutely superb to haveyou on the show here today.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
This is a great opportunity.
I've done a couple of thesebefore, but they've really been
sort of bit parts, but this isthe first time I've done a
full-on interview, so I'm reallylooking forward to this.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yeah, look, I was super impressed when I took a
look at your book.
You've got a book out called weAll Change and there was a line
in that book that kind ofreally caught me off guard and
when I read it I thought Ialmost sort of choked up a
little bit.
So there was something in thereabout, early on in the book,
(03:19):
that your first wife, yvonne,passed away and she was in
hospice for a while and then onthe day she passed away you
weren't with her when she diedbecause you'd been drinking and
you couldn't drive.
It wasn't safe to drive.
I don't even know where tostart on something like this.
Maybe a good place to start isjust for you to give us maybe a
(03:41):
bit of a story.
Let's start with why did youwrite the book?
What was?
Speaker 1 (03:45):
behind that.
So I'd had I guess I'd hadissues with mental health and
mental health problems for anumber of years.
My mum talks about me behavingstrangely for a while, but you
know, some of it was just putdown to being a teenager, I
guess.
But I would go into some oddphases.
It's not in the book, but weused to have funky washing up
(04:08):
time and for funky washing uptime I had to play certain music
, there had to be certain trackson, and I can remember having
what would be described now as ateenage hissy fit, I guess, if
I couldn't get the music on atthe same time as we were doing
the washing up.
But it's part of this obsessivenature of mine and it tends to
drive me into places that Ishouldn't go.
So I had it for a long timeback in 2018.
(04:32):
Did a trip to Jakarta for work,came back and for the first
time I just really struggledwith jet lag and like two weeks
later I was still reallystruggling.
After four weeks I still wasn'tsleeping and went into the GP
and she made the mistake ofasking me how I was and I just
sort of fell apart there and youknow, there in sort of the on
the way to her office, gotsigned off and then it sort of
(04:54):
gradually got better and Ithought things were going okay.
And then I had an accident.
Um, at CrossFit tore mypectoral muscles off my left
shoulder and put on a load ofweight.
Because you sit around, youdon't do very much for a while,
whereas you're trying to getbetter with any sort of major
sort of muscle and shoulderinjury.
And it came back and it wasn'treally, really wasn't well.
This was now 2020.
And I had.
(05:17):
I went back to see my counsellorand on December the 14th the
date sticks in my head.
I don't think this date willever, will ever, go away.
My counsellor said to me at theend of our session.
She said thank you for being soopen and honest with me.
And I started laughing and Ithought well, I've been to like
multiple sessions with you.
What have I done that made yousay that and because?
(05:38):
And she said well, that's thefirst time you've ever described
what happens to you.
I'd always talked about, we'dalways got into conversation in
our sessions around where I'dbeen, the things I'd done and
all that sort of stuff, but thiswas the first time I actually
described what physicallyhappens to me, because there was
, maybe there is still a sort ofa physical manifestation.
(05:59):
So that then drove me to look upwhat was wrong with me.
I couldn't find it.
I went to various mental healthself-help type websites,
including Mind in the UK andmental health websites here in
New Zealand and other placesaround the world, and I found
some categories which went fromnot that I'm putting anybody on
(06:22):
a scale here, I'm that.
You know there might have beenschizophrenia at the top and and
mild anxiety at the bottom,that sort of thing and then.
But what I could find was bitsof me in bits of the
descriptions.
So I thought, well, I betterwrite it down.
So I rather manically I knowthat's a probably a bad word to
use, but it was a bit sort ofhead down focused whilst I was
(06:44):
typing it more felt like I wasscribbling, and scribbling
really hard.
If you've, you can sort of getthat picture.
And I was so anyway so I wrotethis, this piece, and I thought,
right, okay, good job, that'sdone, try to get it finished
before Christmas, because wewere running up to Christmas
then and I wanted it to be outof my head so that we could
enjoy Christmas.
We got got people coming aroundand that sort of stuff, so I
(07:10):
got it written and I showed itto people, and I showed it to
Tracy, my wife, and a couple ofother people who knew that I
wasn't well, and I gave it toLorraine, my counsellor, and a
few others, and the feedback wasinteresting.
Lorraine immediately rang meand said are you okay Thinking
that?
Because there's a quote I useat the end of the first chapter,
which is she thought maybe Iwasn't that well and maybe I had
some form of plan, and Iassured her I didn't.
(07:31):
It was more a case of the factthat these things have been
running around in my head for along time.
So the quote that I'm referringto is from Doctor who, and when
I was not well, from sort of2018 through until 2020 and a
little bit beyond, I watchedDoctor who back to back
obsessively and watched fromwhen it got rejuvenated in 2005
all the way through to I'm goingto get my timing wrong, but
(07:53):
probably the Peter Capolziseries.
I watched it four times all theway through.
I don't know how many episodesthere is, but it's quite a few,
and a lot of it just sort ofstuck with me.
So what happened was I thoughtright, okay, well, I need to get
better.
If I can describe what's goingwrong with me, I've always been
a person that tried to just getstuff done, and not being able
(08:13):
to solve this was distressing.
I guess it sort of becomesself-compounding, if you like.
You think about it too much,which then makes it worse.
So then you think about it somemore, which then makes it worse
.
So then you think about it somemore and you can't.
It's very difficult necessarilyto break that cycle.
What I found was that maybewriting things and things down.
So over Christmas you know,christmas day was sort of pretty
(08:35):
busy, boxing Day was busy Ithen got my notebook out and I
started to write down what wasimportant to me, and it was a
little bit prompted by the againmentioned in the book.
I talk about Alistair Campbell,who used to be Tony Blair's
head of sort of head of comms Iforget what his official title
was, and I'd heard someinterviews and read some
articles about him.
(08:55):
And then my wife bought meTracy.
She bought me his book, which Iread as well, covered all that
in the book too.
But there's some things that hedid to be able to help him get
better and where I thought,right, okay, well, the first
thing to do is to write downwhat's important to me, and it
sounds really simple, but I'dactually never done it before.
(09:16):
I'd never written down whatreally is important.
And you know that thing aboutwhere people in business say to
you you know, if you have anidea, it's an idea, but if you
write it down and then put somestructure around it, it can
become a plan.
Well, that's effectively whatthat became.
Then that list of stuff where Ithought these are the things
that I need to focus on too.
I don't I try and avoid thephrase get better, because I
(09:39):
don't think you ever do.
I think it was, and it goesaway and then it comes back.
So the idea is to try and bebetter.
I'll be honest, I'm notparticularly good at that either
.
Recent experiences and then thelist became effectively a guide
for the next 18 months.
Wrote the list, started talkingabout the list, wrote the third
(10:01):
piece.
So then the list became areason for writing another piece
.
So I also wrote aboutcoincidence or the mysterious
forces at work.
I mentioned Christmas Day andgetting ready for the fact that
and I've been in chapter oneI've talked about, talked about
Alistair Campbell, talked abouthis book, talked about the
articles and everything else,and it refers back to an
(10:23):
interview that he did with KimHill on Radio New Zealand in
October 2020.
And I'd gone into the kitchenWe'd done sort of outdoor
breakfast, barbecue and whatnotand gone into the kitchen,
started to prepare stuff,flipped the radio on and it was
just before midday and just as Iwas starting to prepare stuff
for the barbecue for the eveningon came that interview again
(10:45):
and I wrote then that I don'tunderstand how the world works.
Sometimes things just sort ofsurprise you.
You know for for what.
Weeks and weeks before I'd hadum Alistair's interview and his
articles and that sort of stuffrunning through my head and then
I go in in a quiet moment andstart to do some stuff and I
didn't know the interview wasgoing to be on.
I had no way I mean I couldhave if I was that avid a Radio
(11:07):
New Zealand listener.
Maybe I'd have been aware of it, but no, so it was sort of I
don't know a serendipitousmoment, but it then prompted me
to write the second chapter.
And then I wrote a thirdchapter about reading his book.
And then I wrote a fourthchapter.
A mutual friend of ours, maryClaire.
We were sitting at 10cc inMasterton having coffee and we
(11:28):
were talking about can'tremember what it was now and she
I gave her the fourth chapter,I printed it out and gave it to
her and she said to me youshould turn this into a book.
And I said to her at that timeI said Tracy said to me when I
wrote chapter one, maybe Ishould publish it.
And I'd said then that I didn'twant the responsibility.
And what I meant by that wasthat if you write a book about,
(11:48):
I feel my thoughts were.
My thoughts were if you write abook about mental health and
then people start to use it, youbecome sort of responsible for
their response to it.
It's different to writing anovel.
People can like a novel or notlike a novel and everything else
is about me.
It doesn't matter whether youlike it or not.
That's, it is what it is, andif you pull things out a bit,
that might be useful to you then, which was then maricla's point
(12:12):
?
Well, what if it helps somebodyelse?
So I said, all right, I'll havea think about it.
And she said and this is me, bythe way, as well, be really
cool to know someone who'spublished a book.
So I don't know, I don't know.
So, just so, I went back homeand then a few days later I
wrote the intro to the book,even though I'd only got like
four chapters.
Decided then I'd write 13chapters, 13 things on a list of
(12:34):
things to help me be better.
I mean 13 chapters.
And I just kept writing.
And what was the reason for it?
I wrote recently I've started asub stack as well.
That's not an advert.
I'm just sort of continuing tokeep my hand in, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Where do we find your sub stack For those people who
are listening?
Where do they go and find?
Speaker 1 (12:52):
it.
Oh yeah, no, I am Andy Kerr onsub stack.
I am Andy Kerr, so I waswriting on that and thinking
that when I was writing the book, sometimes I'd get so
frustrated about the fact thatthe words wouldn't come and I
was trying to allocate time tosit down and write.
What I've learned now and whatI find when I'm trying to write
(13:13):
pieces for the Substack is yes,I still need to allocate time
and it needs to be the rightmoment for flowing, but
generally speaking, when itstarts it just comes, and I find
now that it helps me with mythinking.
So the book took longer than Ithought it would and that's
because of that frustration oftrying to force it out of me.
(13:34):
So there's no point in metrying to do that.
But I didn't realize it at thetime and in the end I finished
writing.
I'd written the 13th chapter,thought, yep, this is all good,
this is brilliant, and I thought, oh, bugger, I've missed some
stuff out.
There were some things, becausewhat I did was originally I was
just writing these pieces forpeople around me to read and see
(13:56):
that, because lots of peopleknew I was in wealth and this
was my way of being able tocommunicate with everybody.
Well, look, these are thethings that I'm doing, this is
where I'm heading and this iswhat's happening and it's sort
of.
You can see through the writingand I've commented on this to a
couple of people that I didn'tknow I was doing it at the time
that chapter one is very.
There's no pictures, it's justwords.
(14:16):
And you're in that sort ofstate where you're very, very
focused and you've got to dosomething, whereas through the
rest of it you start to see thatI become better because the
writing gets better and lesssort of must get this done and
then it sort of keeps moving,moving through.
And the other thing is sort ofbecause and like I said, I
(14:38):
didn't realize it at the time,but I do now that the writing
was helping me think, which madethe writing better, and it
became less about, I guess, lessabout mental health more than
about.
I've posited this question tomyself very recently and I'm
going to write a piece about itbut what am I for?
And it's it's sort of the.
There's a double play to that,which is well, if I'm just here
(15:00):
to consume and do nothing else,well, what's the point in that?
That's one side to it.
So I figured I definitelybelieve that if you and it would
be very personal to each toanybody else I definitely
believe that the best way tohelp yourself be better is to
find ways of helping otherpeople.
(15:21):
Those things around, and in thefirst list there's those things
around, you know, being a betterhusband, being a better father,
being a better son.
You know there's being present,being at work.
There's some personal things onthat list around, looking after
my health in various differentways.
So there's all that sort ofstuff.
But then there was the givingback, which is around trying to
find ways to help other people.
(15:42):
It's all evolved.
It's just sort of I didn't, sowhy write a book?
I didn't have a plan to write abook, I just wrote some stuff
down and then it sort of morphedinto it.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
It's really interesting because it strikes
me that it's something thatinitially started as something
that maybe was cathartic for youand it was an exercise in just
starting to construct yourthoughts and then from there,
ultimately it became a book andthen from there it has impact on
others.
Did you ever then feel thepressure, once it was published,
(16:19):
to sort of have to, as you say,you know you've written these
things down and then others usethem?
Do you now have to somehow beresponsible for that?
What did you think after it waspublished in terms of, you know
, reflections from others?
Speaker 1 (16:33):
oh, now, this is an interesting.
So it got published as in fromthe point of view of the fact
that I had boxes of books on thefirst of apr.
April 2023.
It went into editing in August2022, and it took that long to
get it.
I'll tell you what the scariestmoment that you'll ever have in
your life if you've written abook is the first time the
editor hands it back to you andthere's just a sea of red all
(16:56):
the way through it and I wasthinking, oh, what have I let
myself in for?
And I'm paying for thisprivilege as well.
So when I got, I haven't beenparticularly good at managing
myself.
So in the book I talk aboutbeing on medication and I'm
still on medication.
(17:16):
My expectation is that I'll beon medication for a long time,
and the reason why is because,for whatever reason and I know
there's been lots of discussionin the media recently last year
or so about SSRIs SSRIs are notgood for me whatsoever.
That's the reason why I've beenshaking my right hand and ended
up in an ambulance in june lastyear because of trying to
(17:37):
change drugs, and we tried totry this as all right.
Again I'm on something else.
And what the other.
What this one does is it topsup the amount of serotonin in me
.
But because I'm I've always beenthis, generally speaking, sort
of full-on, live life to thefull, work hard, blah, blah,
blah.
And when I started running, Ijust ran hard.
And what I've learned fromdoing half marathon training and
(17:59):
that sort of stuff is that Idon't have that all that
capacity to be able to doeverything that I want to do at
the same time.
Running training takes a lotout of you, burns through a lot
of resources and when, what Ifound, what I find is that
sometimes the medication doesn'tsupport me.
So, having printed the book onthe 1st of April, I didn't try
and sell any until about the10th of December.
So it was, it just came around.
(18:21):
To well, I need to allocatesome time to actually doing it.
Well, and not, what if somebodyasks me a question about the
book?
In the past, I've not beenparticularly good about talking
about it, and that's partlybecause of the past.
I've not been particularly goodabout talking about it, and
that's partly because of thefact that I've normally been
doing a lot of other things atthe same time, which means that
(18:42):
I get caught out.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Sorry to interrupt you.
Take us back to when you firstbecame aware that your mental
health wasn't great.
Was it prior to losing yourfirst wife?
Was it you wife?
Were you a much younger man atthe time when you became aware
that actually I'm strugglinghere and you talk in the book a
lot about dealing and battlingwith alcohol and drugs?
(19:05):
When did you realize, andy,you're not well, you need some
help.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Again.
It's funny, I catch myselfsaying you know, oh yes, it's in
the book.
My problem was and I'm I thinkthis happens to other people in
similar situations.
It's an actual fact, you don'tknow.
So I was so back when Yvonnedied I'd been working so hard.
We had Edward.
Edward was two and a half, no,two years old, just over two
(19:34):
years old.
Two years old, just over twoyears old.
He was just over four years oldwhen she died and she first got
ill.
So Yvonne died when I was 30,and she first got ill when I was
23.
We were going to go on holidayand she found a lump or a dent,
really went into the hospital,went to the GP.
Gp referred her straight awayto the hospital and she ended
(19:56):
the operation two days later itwas.
They'd done biopsies and bitsand pieces and found that it was
so aggressive that if theydidn't, they didn't think that.
She said, oh, we're going onholiday in two weeks.
I said, no, you're not.
And then it was the radio andchemo.
I think I wasn't well throughthat whole period, through the
seven years, and I understandwhen people step away, people in
(20:17):
that situation that I was injust go.
Sorry, I can't deal with it.
I get it, I stuck with it butthen fell off a cliff when it
all stopped, and even thoughthere was Edward to look after
and the problem was there wassome fundamental things to do,
like arrange funerals and so on.
But when it all stops andyou've got this massive gap,
that's when it comes in andtakes over, and that's what
(20:39):
happens to me.
So I went to the GP then and theGP put me on Prozac and I sort
of weaned myself off it a fewweeks later and when, and as
I've written, I actually wentlooking to see if, if, the
depression was still there.
And it didn't seem to be, andthen it didn't come back again
for another 19 years the titleof the first chapter.
(20:59):
I think the problem is thatmost people don't realize it,
which is why, if things aren'tquite right, my view is you, you
must seek help, you must talkto someone.
I was lucky.
I it's lucky.
I went to see my GP and shereferred me to Lorraine, my
counsellor, and she has beenexcellent, one of the things
(21:21):
that I'm sort of struck by isthat this is a monster.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
You know depression.
This is a monster that canstrike anyone, and it doesn't
matter your social status, yourwealth, your gender, where you
live, what you do for a living.
It can strike anyone.
And you cite Alistair Campbell,tony Blair's chief of staff or
whatever he was.
You cite him, but it can get toanyone, right?
(21:47):
And I think one of the greatthings you've done in this book
and when you talk to others isjust to destigmatize it.
I mean, this is something.
It's the human body.
Neurologically we are quitecomplex.
We can get tired, we can fallon issues of addiction, we can
get obsessed about things, wecan have behavior that is not
(22:10):
ideal, and all of these thingscan kind of lead to a decreasing
circle of a lack of mentalhealth.
So I think that was one of thethings that really struck me in
your book is that this canhappen to anyone, right?
And you must see that all thetime.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It can.
And I think there's a danger inover-diagnosis and over-sharing
.
And I think that people, likewhen I started to talk about the
book, I thought, well, do I putit on LinkedIn, you know, do I?
And I thought, well, if peopleyou know I've got, I'm connected
with over 500 people and whathave you?
Most of them, to be fair, youdon't really know them that.
Well, it's the way LinkedInworks.
(22:47):
I just thought, well, what'sthe worst that could happen?
Some people go.
Well, not so sure about him anylonger.
I said, why, in the end, if wedon't talk about it but talk
about it constructively?
I think the what I was sayingthere how do I know?
How did I know to get help?
I really didn't.
I had a really good GP and areally good counsellor.
(23:08):
The GP helped me ontomedication and I think that
getting good medical help isnecessary.
Being able to talk to somebodyis necessary and for those that
are the sounding board, likeyourself, you're sitting here
and you're you're listening,you're being a good listener and
then you're picking up on thethings that I say.
You're not giving menecessarily your opinion on
(23:29):
what's happened to me oranything else.
It's more a case of well, theseare the things, the things, and
what I found was I wassurrounded.
I got very insular throughoutthe previous period before I
sort of hit this wall again,2018 and then 2020.
Reaching out and reconnectingwith people has been one thing
that's really helped, whichmeans, then, that those people
(23:52):
will be supportive of you whenyou go and put something out
there.
So some friends of mine havebeen excellent about the book
and they've posted online aboutit, and I think the key thing is
, if you think something's notquite right, then go and talk to
somebody about it, even if it'sjust walking around.
We've got Henley Lake here.
You know, marceline, we've gotHenley Lake.
Just go for a stroll aroundHangley Lake and talk to someone
(24:14):
.
It doesn't have to be aprofessional, but just sort of
get it out there, you get outinto nature and related to that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
I want to pick up on three different themes, and you
talk about all three of thesethemes in the book and I've also
heard you talk about these.
So one is sleep, one isexercise and, for you, running
and CrossFit, and then the thirdone being nutrition, and we'll
finish around and talk aboutketo.
If we look at sleep, you made acomment in the book where, I
(24:42):
think it was, your counselor wassaying to you look, andy, with
all of these things that you'resort of processing in your head
and issues and things thathappen in your life, some of
them quite traumatic, you putthose things in a box and you
just keep putting them in a boxand that's kind of fine while
they stay in the box, but whenyou don't sleep properly, the
(25:06):
box opens up and these are mywords but it's almost like the
box drops on the floor andeverything comes out of the box.
Has that been your experience?
A lack of sleep really hascontributed a lot to finding
this?
Speaker 1 (25:21):
It most definitely did.
It was the lack of it was myhabit of not dealing with things
and just pushing them away,putting them in this sort of
metaphorical box and lockingthem up and then go.
Well, that's how I'm going todeal with stuff that I don't
like or struggle to deal with.
So the things that I did, youknow, as Yvonne was getting
(25:42):
close towards dying, thosethings I'd locked up.
You know, I hadn't.
I never told anybody what I'ddone.
So when stuff just sort ofunraveled, and with Lorraine
talking to me and teasing outall of the things that I'd done
in the last sort of 19, 20 yearswhich had gone into this box,
(26:07):
and what I'd since then, andprobably stuff before then as
well, and I don't remember allthat we talked about in all the
sessions, but yeah, and then,basically, what she said, what
she said, look, we all do it, weall sort of park stuff, stuff.
That's difficult, but if we, ifit becomes really acute, the
problem is that if you have thattendency for stuff to
eventually unravel, it's goingto hit you really hard and
(26:29):
that's what happened to me.
So I'm fortunate.
Now the drug I'm on the tazepine.
When I take it, it frustrates.
That frustrates tracy.
I'll take my drug and then 20minutes later I'll be out.
That's me gone.
And she said it's sofrustrating I can just say, oh
you know, and then bang, I'm out.
So that helps me sleep.
(26:50):
The problem is that I don'tremember any of my dreams
usually, so I don't know if I dodream.
I'm guessing I do Every now andthen there's sort of remnants
of stuff, but I'm just gone, soI definitely get sleep now.
Is it high quality?
I don't know.
But I think the other thing toadd to the box situation is that
I don't put anything in the boxany longer now.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Tell us about that.
What do you do?
Do you just do you?
If there's something that's abit painful that you would have
avoided in the past, do you nowjust walk into it?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Look at the world we live in now.
Everything's difficult.
The way I've decided to try andgo about things now.
I still write lots of lists.
I've got got to do it.
The danger in putting thingsoff is then it becomes a mind
thing of its own rather than itjust being a task to do, and
(27:41):
there's always going to bedifficult stuff.
But I figured that I've got the55.
Now, you know, got the moredifficult stuff coming with.
You know aging parents, agingin-laws, aging relatives, myself
I'm aging, but not aged.
I'm determined to make it to 95, if not beyond, which comes
down to the health stuff andsort of looking after myself.
(28:02):
Again, I'm not always very goodat that, but that's the
intention.
So yeah, so I don't put stuffin the box.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
I think there's a real lesson there for others to
hear about.
That.
Just to face into the stuff.
That's difficult, because ifyou don't, it just keeps coming
back Right.
So even if you do put it in thebox, it has a way of falling
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Let's get back to the show Then,in terms of exercise.
So you got into running.
Tell us a bit about that andthe role that exercise plays in,
(29:17):
I guess, your recovery fromdepression or the fight against
depression I don't know ifthere's ever a full recovery,
right.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
No, I don't think there is.
I think it's always hangingaround.
It's always something to manage, but getting into the running,
it became an obsession.
I ran lots and lots.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
I ran a park run with.
You know, I met some greatpeople at park run bead and
martin, and and we used to.
There was a sort of competitionwith different ages, but all
(29:46):
over 50 and that sort of stuff,and it was quite.
It was quite good.
I then ran some 10ks and didquite.
You know, for me I wasn'tsomebody could go out with a bit
of a plan and try and come inat a time that I wanted and that
sort of step, and that's sortof as far as I wanted to take it
.
I then tried to run a halfmarathon and it was the half
marathon, my first one, and Imade a big splash about it on
(30:07):
LinkedIn and Facebook and that,and I'd set up the charity then.
I'd set up the charity then,and it was the first time that I
was running a half marathon,but also the first time I was
saying, look, I'm out hereraising funds and this is what
I'm going to do with it.
So it was a rubbish, rubbishhalf marathon.
I got, well, I was 16, got in16 Ks out of the 21 Ks and got
(30:28):
crammed in both legs and walkedin pain for the rest of it.
And people said to me, oh youknow, I'd have dropped out.
I just said, well, I've madesuch a fuss about it on the
internet that I better get tothe finish line.
And it's really funny.
You get within sort of 300meters of the line and there's
people going, come on, come on.
I said, oh, I've got nothing,I'm not running, I'm not running
at all, otherwise you'd.
So that then drove me to againobsessively think, well, this is
(30:54):
no good, I can't, I've got tobe able to do this.
So I sought some help from arunning coach and that then got
me through the next two or threehalf marathons and bits and
pieces and I'm going to run amarathon.
It's now going to have to benext year, because I've been off
sick from work recently becauseI tore my pectoral muscle off
my right shoulder in January.
(31:14):
Because I tore my pectoralmuscle off my right shoulder in
January, surgery in February,which has meant that I've had to
do a lot more sitting aroundand not doing very much.
But the good news is thatsomebody said to me well, how's
it going this time?
I said, well, that's okay.
I wrote a manual about what notto do, so I've been able to.
I haven't put on the 10 kilosthat I put on the last time.
I put on a little bit of weightin that, but running with both
(31:35):
of these injuries.
So now I never needed anoperation.
Before I came to New ZealandI've had two hernia operations,
one left, one right, and now twopectoral muscle repairs, one
left, one right.
So I'm now fully balanced andit's only taken it's only taken
like 18 years to become fullybalanced in New Zealand and, by
the way've got I've taken myfair share of Tafata Ora's
(31:55):
budget into my shoulders.
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Your shoulder is now so you presumably can't bowl a
good googly anymore.
Like that's gone.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
No, I'm intending on going back and I'll play cricket
again.
I'll get the range of motionand everything back again.
What I can't do is go and liftreally heavy weights, so that so
because I was obsessively, Iwas doing ego lifts, and at 50,
you've got to be stupid to bedoing ego lifts.
Sorry to anybody who's doingego lifts at the age of 50, but
you've really got to.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
I do ego lifts at the age of 55.
I just think it's a male thing.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
I think we're stupid sometimes, yeah, so I now can't
do all those things.
But thing, I think we're stupidsometimes, yeah, so I now can't
do all those things.
But you know, maybe I could.
But there's no point in metesting where the new boundary
is.
There's just no point, becauseif I reach it and it goes wrong,
I can't fix it.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Yeah, you're screwed.
Yeah, so with the running, isthat something?
Are you still doing the running?
Are you still using that as akind of an antidote to fighting?
Speaker 1 (32:54):
depression.
I had just started trainingagain and then had the accident
playing cricket which causedthis, so I then had to stop
because, given mobilization forone.
So I've literally just startedover the past two weeks, started
running again, just treadmillstuff at the moment I had a bit
of a cold so it's not helpingwith the breathing and so on,
(33:15):
but the intention is to run a10K in November.
I'll run a half early next yearand then run a marathon next
year.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
Well done.
And with the running, what'sthe benefit for you?
Is it the sort of endorphin hitand getting the blood
circulating and feeling fitterand better and therefore you
you're able to kind of push awayand feel better about yourself,
push away the depression?
Or is it the goal setting andthe personal bests and the times
(33:48):
and those sorts of things, soyou've got a goal and an
objective?
Why do you think you do?
Speaker 1 (33:53):
running it's interesting around queenstown
for the second time in novemberand it was the best planning
we'd ever done, that I'd everdone running coach, had got some
help with nutrition, did allsorts of things, had it bang on
right, but got halfway throughand it just wasn't going to
happen, me coming in fiveminutes under my PB, which had
(34:15):
been the plan.
Just wasn't going to happen.
And it was strange because Iknew I'd got another what 11 and
a half Ks to go, or whatever.
I just thought, well, what am Igoing to do?
Because, for whatever reason,even though I was eating well on
the run and everything else, itjust wasn't going to happen.
So I just thought, sod it, I'lljust enjoy it.
(34:35):
I'll wave at every camera thatI see, I'll stop and acknowledge
.
I won't stop, but I'll waveQueenstown's.
Really good, the Queenstownpeople are excellent.
They come out and they line theroute.
Some of them are ringingcowbells and you know people
yelling my name out.
So it's cool, it's really cool.
And that was my first halfmarathon where I didn't get
(34:57):
cramp, not during the race, notafter the race.
So I just thought, well, thisis a really good learning
opportunity in that case,because I've got all the way
through.
I didn't get cramp at all.
All right, didn't go howintended.
But what I do know is that Ican now get round the whole way
without getting injured.
I've learned a hell of a lotfrom it.
Then the intention was that Iwould have been running.
(35:20):
I was going to try and run theTaupo marathon in August this
year but because I learned somuch about myself, I know that
doing that intensive trainingbetween now and August is likely
to be detrimental to my mentalhealth.
So therefore, right,interesting further and ease
(35:41):
things along right.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
And what about nutrition?
We sort of close on the sort ofsleep, exercise, nutrition
piece we and we talk a littlebit about keto.
I know you're a real advocatefor keto.
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (35:54):
so originally I was an advocate for it because I got
obsessed with losing weightwhich is again is a trait and I
found it a really good way of oflosing weight.
Now I've learned more aboutketo and intermittent fasting
and that sort of stuff and itprobably was the reason why I
lost a lot of weight wasprobably just to through calorie
(36:15):
restriction and additionalexercise, calories in, calories
out and that sort of stuff and,very simply, that's probably
what was what was going on.
But during that period, what Ilearned, what I didn't?
I did more things aroundlearning around.
I'm somebody who's beenpre-diabetic for 16 years, so
being on a low carbohydrate dietmakes sense anyway, being I am
(36:40):
male and therefore the medicalprofession just says to you well
, you need to get your psA testdone once a year at least,
because you're going to get alarge prostate and you're more
than likely to get prostatecancer.
So I was a bit angry with themedical profession about the
fact that this is just.
Well, it's written in stone.
So I thought, well, I got that.
No, it's not going to bewritten in stone for me.
(37:01):
So I've looked at different ways.
I've been able to not onlysupport my body when I need to
do running, not only thinkingabout aging and maintaining
muscle mass and maintaining bonedensity.
So it's moved on from ketoalthough there's a reference
back to it for the charity.
But for me personally, I try tostill now eat relatively low
(37:23):
carb, I try to eat higherprotein and what I'm doing is
gearing what I eat.
I'm not doing very muchtraining at the moment but when
I am training, gearing what Ieat to support the effort that I
need to put in to be able toget the most out of the training
that I'm doing, and then alsothen respecting my body
afterwards.
(37:43):
You know it takes a good threeto four weeks for somebody of my
age who's not really a runner,to be able to get over what I've
just put myself through.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
So and tell us about the charity.
What is this all about?
I know a few things, butobviously listeners don't.
So to take us through that youknow what have you created here
and why again in the book.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
I was driving back from Wellington one day this was
sometime in 2021 March 20th, 21, I think and I heard an article
on radio new zealand and it wasabout a lady called charlene
tan smith who is the newzealand's top lead on
medicalized ketogenic therapyand that is mainly used in new
zealand and a lot of othercountries to help people.
(38:26):
But there's big focus from heron children or under 15s
drug-resistant epilepsy and theygo on a diet that's up to 90%
fat and then the other 10% isprotein and carbohydrate and
what they've proven is the factthat they can reduce seizures in
kids, wean them off medicationeventually for some, wean them
(38:50):
off the diet and it goes awayand stays away, but it's not
funded.
The treatment isn't really wellsupported in New Zealand and
it's not funded.
And it's also, if you canimagine, if you're on a high fat
diet and you're a child, youneed to be able to grow as well.
Your brain needs to grow, yourbody needs to grow, so therefore
it needs to be nutritious aswell as serving the purpose of
reducing your seizures.
(39:10):
So it's a diet that's manageddaily, but the macros are tested
daily and there's software outthere that that can help you
manage your recipes and makesure that the the kids getting
the right food, and lots oftesting, lots of blood tests and
everything else.
So I created the charity not tosupport Charlene and her husband
, andrew.
It was to try and support thefamilies that go on to this,
(39:33):
because you don't want to beeating lard, you need to be
eating better quality fats, andin New Zealand that tends to be
expensive.
So I thought, well, maybe whatI could do is help families that
go on to the treatment.
As it was, we ended up helpingone family and then it sort of
petered off, and that wasbecause there's only one service
(39:53):
, really strong service, in NewZealand and that's in the South
Island.
There's a little bit done outof Starship and a little bit
done out of others, but it's nota focused service.
The focused service in SouthIsland serves 30 kids, plus some
that Charlene does privately.
So we structured the charity,rejuvenated something that I'd
written back in 2017 aroundbeing able to help families in
(40:16):
the Warapa with heating theirhomes with dry firewood.
So this winter we've helpedseven families.
We'll look to do more next yearand I'm in the process of
literally there's a ton of gumover in a paddock and I'm
getting that cut up and thenwe'll process that and put away
for winter next year and we sellsome of that to be able to
raise funds and so on and soforth.
So there's that part of it.
(40:37):
And then right now justfinalizing a proposal for
creating a training program forketo dietitians in New Zealand
training program for ketodietitians in New Zealand and
what we're looking at doing isbeing able to take a model from
the UK where this has sort ofbeen done before, where they
take a dietitian and train themto become a keto dietitian and
train sort of three to fivedietitians and then over a
(41:00):
three-year period they'll beable to take on up to 30
patients each.
The payback on it is amazing.
It's about eight to 10 times onthe payback because what you're
doing is you're removing thatchild's time in ED and overnight
stays and consultants andmedication and blah, blah, blah.
So for each per annum, for eachkid that goes onto it, you save
(41:21):
conservatively $21,500.
So what we're trying to do iswe're trying to.
We will be sort of putting apaper out and talking to people
about it, but we need to raise.
So the charity is putting in30,000 and we need to raise
another 132 to 212.
That'll get us the training andmentoring for that period that
we need to be able to bringthose dieticians up to speed and
(41:42):
get them servicing thosepatients.
And the payback is depending onwhether it's three or five.
It's two and a half million to4.2 million over that training
period.
We're training a mentoringperiod and then so, assuming
that runs for three years, inyear four you save 3.2 million
and then it's each yearafterwards.
So it's sort of, to me, comingat it from a business
(42:04):
perspective, it sort of speaksfor itself.
I've just got to find the money.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
That is a great way to finish up and I will make
sure, actually, that there areways for people to be able to
find you and connect with thecharity and learn more about it
and be able to support thecharity.
Andy, you're an impressive guyand I want to thank you for the
way that you are open, so waythat you know you've written a
book which makes your story andsome of the lessons that come
(42:34):
out of that able to be consumedby others, and so for that I
want to thank you.
I also want to thank you justfor being open and sharing.
You're, let's call it, amiddle-aged I hate using that
phrase on myself, but I am amiddle-aged guy and a lot of on
myself, but I am a middle-agedguy and a lot of guys find it
tough to share, and yet therewill be a bunch of guys and
(42:54):
girls you know this, thisimpacts everyone but a bunch of
guys in particular who will hearyour story and resonate with it
and whatever their situationand whether they have got, you
know, issues around addictionwith alcohol or or other things
or not, and they're juststruggling, and you, in talking
(43:15):
about it in the way that you doand some of the references you
make to other people that aretalking about this in your book.
It's just super helpful forpeople.
So thank you for that.
As I say, I will make surethere are connections for people
to connect in with you and yourcharity in the show notes to
this episode.
But I just want to say thankyou, andy, because you're a top
(43:36):
guy and I suspect the95-year-old version of yourself,
because you will make it willbe able to sit back in that
armchair and feel very satisfiedwith the impact that you've
made on others.
So so thank you, mate, welldone.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
Brilliant.
Thank, greg.
This has been a great chat.
Always good to see you.
One other quick thing, if I mayso if people would like to buy
the book, there's a $10 donationfrom what they from the cover
price goes to, I Am Hope, tohelp support kids with
counselling in New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
That's absolutely superb and again, we'll include
that in the show notes as well.
So thank you, mate.
It's really cool Top stuff.
Thanks very much.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you
being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
(44:29):
money.
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