May 21, 2024 • 46 mins
Have you ever wondered how a love for puppet shows and theatre could evolve into pioneering innovation for Kiwis in Virtual and Augmented Reality.
As this podcast goes to air the team at Beyond are readying to release their game Runaways for the new Apple Vision Pro.
Join us as Jessica Manins, co-CEO and co-founder of Beyond, takes us through her story from childhood passions to leading innovation in virtual worlds.
In the last couple of years Beyond have created stand out successes like Combonauts and Fluf World alongside the Futureverse team.
Venturing into the startup world can feel labyrinthine, yet, Jess and her cofounder chartered the world of imaginary digital worlds and in this episode she shares the peaks and valleys of their journey, from hustling like a pro to shaking off the inevitable imposter syndrome and building their dreams into reality.
You can connect with Jess here and check out the amazing work from Beyond.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Kindness for me in business, you know, is really
important, because I didn'trealise how many people aren't
kind.
And you know you get told thisoh, you have to be ruthless,
that's who wins.
And I just thought that surelythat's not true.
Surely we can be good people.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Jess Mannins.
She is the co-CEO andco-founder of Beyond, and Beyond
are all about the creators ofvirtual worlds.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
You've got to be brave and bold, you've got to
try things and not be afraid ofthat failure and experimenting.
If you want to do something,just do it, you know, because
otherwise you're going to haveregrets in life.
And it's not to say you'regoing to make a unicorn or
whatever, but if there'ssomething you're interested in
and you're passionate about it,just be brave and just do it and
(00:51):
make it happen.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I know you will be a source of inspiration for a lot
of other people that arethinking about getting involved
in digital creativity.
Hey everybody, it's GregSheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
(01:15):
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
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Now back to the show.
My guest today is Jess Mannins.
Jess, a super, super impressiveindividual.
She is the co-CEO andco-founder of Beyond, and Beyond
(02:21):
are all about the creators ofvirtual worlds.
Jess, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Kia ora.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It is so cool to have you.
This is one of these sort ofconversations where I feel like
I'm so naturally intrigued tolearn more about the world of
virtual creation and this worldof VR and AR, et cetera.
I'm naturally curious, but Ifeel like I really know very
little about it, so it'll bejust from my own personal point
of view.
It'll be really interesting tokind of learn about that.
(02:48):
But I always love to startthese podcasts with a bit of an
origin story about you.
Now, I know you spent a bit oftime in theatre, but just take
us through your childhood andhow you got to be where you are
now.
Were you always a kid who wasdestined to be in this world of
creative design?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Definitely in creative industries.
Yes, from a very small age Iwas that kid that was forcing
her parents to sit on the couchwhile I was behind it doing
puppet shows.
So entertaining is in my bloodand is something that I've
always loved doing.
And, yeah, theatre was mypassion Theatre and then film
naturally progressed into that.
I actually studied televisionproduction and ended up doing
(03:30):
kind of a range of things infront of and behind the scenes,
worked over at Edinburgh FringeFestival, kind of did that run
as an actor, and then ended upgetting into technology and just
and finding a passion fortechnology.
And I think that's naturallywhere the world of what I do now
VR and AR collided with myworld of entertainment and
(03:51):
passion for, you know, bringingjoy and fun into people's world,
which is what I always did,yeah.
So, yeah, as a kid, definitelyall of that, and then
improvising you know, all ofthat I did it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Puppet shows.
I think that's actually quitefunny because essentially,
you're just building digitalpuppet shows and digital
creation.
I think that's super cool.
And before we sort of get intothe origin story around Beyond
and by the way, I love thedomain name you guys have got
the beyondfun.
I just think that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's such a good domain name.
We get through so many domains.
You know, when you're trying tochoose one, of course com is
domain.
You know, when you're trying tochoose one, of course dot com
is gone.
Yeah.
And then we're like, what about?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
dot fun.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, no, it's really the only thing is, everyone
then thinks our company name isbeyond dot fun, which it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's beyond yeah, but it's still given that fun is a
massive part of what you do.
I think it's really really cool.
It is so what I'd love you todo.
Before we sort of talk a bitabout the origin of beyond, how
you and Anton got started, I'mkeen just to have you paint a
little bit of a picture of.
You know, there'll be a bunchof people who are listening to
this who don't know what AR orVR or XR or MR and they don't
(04:53):
really know what those thingsare.
They may be broadly aware thatthere's some what people
wandering around with some weirdthings on their eyes.
They know they've heard aboutgaming.
I'd love you to just sort ofpaint a little bit of a picture
of what augmented reality,virtual reality, et cetera, is
all about.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, so virtual reality is one which takes you
into a completely new virtualworld, you know.
And so, if you think about it,when you put the headset on when
there's so many different typesof VR headsets it completely
immerses you in anotherenvironment, whether that is a
3D created world, animated youcould be on the moon, whatever
(05:30):
you could be at a game, but inits 360.
So, you know, if you're lookingaround, you can see that full
world or augmented reality iswhere you can still see your
real world.
But then there is digitalobjects or games overlaid within
that real environment, and so Icould be here and I'm in my
(05:51):
lounge, and then I can also,with my headset on or through my
phone, see fun little animatedthings happening, you know,
through that.
And then there's so many otherwords right now, like spatial
computing, spatial gaming, mr,xr.
They often just encompass allof that, but those are the kind
of the two key ones.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And so it's a really nice sort of way of kind of
leading into the origin storyaround Beyond.
So, from my understanding, yougot started what seven years ago
, but in 2017, how did that allplay out?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I was actually working at the Biz Dojo when I
had my first kind of VRexperience, which was with a
Wellington company, 8i, and wewere putting on a showcase and I
put on a headset then for thefirst time and saw their content
and naturally was just blownaway Because it really the first
time you ever try VR.
It is hard to explain, but itis amazing.
It's nothing like you've ever,you know, could imagine.
(06:41):
And so I learned about it and Iwas like this is so cool, look
at the possibilities.
You know it's been around for along time but it was just
starting.
That quality of the content wasstarting to grow.
You know the quality of theheadsets and what they were
capable of doing.
And then also Pokemon Go cameout and, as cliche as it is, you
know, I had to go and I waslike this is so cool, wow, I'm
(07:05):
looking at my phone and all ofthese little fun characters and
I'm playing a game and I couldreally see the potential.
And so I ended up opening aresearch and development centre
in Taranaki Street calledProjector, and the aim of that
was kind of to bring peopletogether from both university,
you know, for professionals,corporate, and give people
opportunity to try new gear.
So, you know, for professionals, corporate and give people an
opportunity to try new gear.
So, you know, have all theheadsets there, collaborate on
(07:28):
projects and just try and growthe industry as a whole and
create a bit of an ecosystem.
And so that's how I got startedand how I met Anton, who was
also, in those early stages,excited about AR and he was
making a multiplayer AR game onthe Google Tango back then.
You know hardware that nolonger even exists.
And then, of course, I ended upbeing like oh, you know what my
(07:49):
passion is, to actually makethe content is to try and dive
into this and see if I can comeback to my creative roots and do
it.
So yeah, that's the originstory.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Was it confronting doing that in a world that was
fully digital and I wouldimagine you needed to have some
element of development skill, orwas that not really?
It just didn't really get inyour way.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yes, and that is a challenge when you're not a
technical person, you know, andyou can't develop yourself.
And yeah, now my team.
Of course, I work with veryhighly skilled engineers and 3D
artists, you know, so both sidesof it highly technical and very
skilled in something that Ican't do.
But I had been working prior todoing co-working.
I'd been working at a companycalled Star Now, which is
another very awesome New Zealandsuccess story online auditions
(08:36):
website for the entertainmentindustry, and so I'd got pretty
good with understandingtechnology and what goes into it
and working with developers andworking with designers.
So I knew that a successfulcompany is about having a
successful and great team aroundyou, and so it didn't really
matter that I can't do it myselfI have many other skills but I
can find that it's fantasticpeople to work with me, so that
(08:57):
didn't stop me.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And so you and Anton, you're in Taranaki Street, and
Taranaki Street, for thoselistening outside of New Zealand
, is in Wellington, new Zealand,aotearoa.
And so you get started.
But was that sort of an easyjourney getting started?
Let's incorporate a company,throw in some cash, boom, we get
a success, we're away.
Or was it finding funding?
How did that all kind of play?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
out.
Are you kidding?
When did that ever?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
happen Exactly.
It might have been a rhetoricalquestion, but yeah, how did
that?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
go, I think.
So Come on.
No, you know, yes, we got somejobs, but it was small and
scrappy and you know you're justtrying as best you can to A
convince people about thetechnology but then also make
sure they're using it in theright way and not just a gimmick
.
But yes, we did a bunch ofdifferent kind of experiences
brought William Wairoa toaugmented reality for the
(09:45):
election.
You know he touhu VR, so we didphotogrammetry of all of those
amazing documents in our historyand brought them into a VR
experience.
So a range of different things.
And I guess doing that kind ofservices work enabled us to
learn a lot along the way, andit was then that, you know, of
course, for us we really wantedto do our own thing and have our
(10:06):
own IP and we started toexplore what the opportunities
were in terms of games.
And we went to an augmentedworld expo over in the States
and we had an experience whereit was a multiplayer game in VR,
but you wore these backpack PCsand they had OptiTrack systems
up there.
You know, like all up probably$100,000 worth of hardware and
(10:28):
we played this amazing game andit was so simple.
It was just a co-op game tryingto help each other get across a
shark infested pond, you know,to dodge lasers and not get hit,
or you had to go back to thestart.
And we thought, oh man, this isamazing, just doing something
together in VR and seeing eachother's avatar, that's just so
(10:49):
fun.
And we thought, well, theremust be a way to do this without
that $100,000 overhead.
You know of that hardware.
And it was the early days ofOculus Quest Meta now coming out
, and we thought maybe we can dosomething using their headsets
so we can eliminate having tohave all of that tracking system
.
And it was off the back of thatway back of that that we raised
(11:10):
some capital for our first gameoddball and was that so up
until that time you were doingservices work?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
had you sort of gone all in on this, or were you
doing other day jobs as well?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
pretty much all in, except I did have this funny
contract to helping to set up atech hub in Mauritius out of
Africa.
Yeah, just you know as you do,because I'd had that expertise
and that kind of co-working andaccelerators and they were
looking at doing kind of ablockchain-based kind of space
over there.
The government was reallytrying to get new skills and
(11:42):
people into Mauritius andthrough a friend of a friend, I
ended up helping them with theirbusiness plan.
So I had a little bit of cashcoming in from that while I was
trying to hustle on the otherside for the VR and AR stuff.
But pretty much all in.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And so then you raised capital.
How did you do that?
Did you go to Angels or did yougo straight to VCs?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I guess you could call it a friends and family.
A friend, a very wealthy friend, who at a lunch one day said
you know this VR stuff you'vebeen talking to me about for
years.
I'm actually kind of keen tosee it.
Now, take me to your office andshow me.
We had a little experience andwe'd actually kind of done this
kind of mixed reality experiencewhere we'd mapped the real
couch with a virtual couch, youknow, so they're in the same
(12:19):
space and so you could put theheadset on and you could
actually sit down on the realcouch and see the virtual one.
And that's a very buzzyexperience, you know, when you
mix those two together and youcan physically feel it.
And he was like I'm in, I'm in,let's make something.
And so not a traditional way ofraising capital, but later on,
yes, I did raise capital throughtraditional methods, like Angel
(12:41):
HQ and a few of our localinvestors.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And did it take some convincing of some of the local
angel investors of what even isthis?
So your mate gets it, that'sawesome, but I'm picking it as a
bunch of people sitting in anangel group on their chairs
going what the heck is that?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, and you know, some of my investors are classic
.
I love them, they're so braveto have taken a chance on us.
But they literally said you'rean experiment, jessica, we don't
know half the time what you'retalking about, but we're kind of
curious so we're gonna give ita go.
But yes, there was a lot ofeducation, like everything in
those early days of convincingpeople that this is going to be
(13:18):
in a sector, that VR gaming willbe big and like anything.
People like yeah, yeah, yeah,sure, and I think at the time
early on at projector, we hadsome of the the early guys who
were right into AI and you knowit was a similar kind of thing
eight, nine years ago wherepeople were kind of like, oh
yeah, you weird techie peopleoff in the corner.
Now everyone's like, ah, ai, ahVR.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Did you ever have moments of self-doubt through
that process?
You're a confident person,you're an actress, you've had a
background in theatre, you'vedone puppet shows right, so
you're confident in presentingsomething.
But there must have been timeswhere you were like, oh man,
this is hard.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Absolutely.
So many times.
I mean, imposter syndrome is areal thing.
And when you're learning a newskill and a new technology and
you have to kind of be theexpert, when you're not an
expert and you're still learningand I never claim to be an
expert there's times where youthink, oh, I'm a fraud, should I
even be doing this?
Have I got the right skills todo this?
(14:16):
And especially when I movedinto gaming because I didn't
have the gaming credentials.
You know, I might have come froma creative background.
I'm very good at producing, Ihave a creative eye, I
understand entertainment, I'mpassionate about customers and
players and what they get out ofit.
I always focus on that first.
But I felt a little bit of afraud when I got into gaming,
(14:37):
cause, you know, here are thesepeople who, it's like I'm a
hardcore gamer, and what game doyou play, you know?
And I'm like I used to likeMonkey Island, you know.
So, yes, absolutely.
But over the years thatconfidence has grown massively.
And when you have somesuccesses, along with many
failures which I definitely havehad, of course then your
(14:58):
confidence grows more becauseyou realise I can do this.
And when you surround yourselfwith talented people, together
you can do it, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And I'm pleased you raised the topic of imposter
syndrome because I know Ipersonally have that constantly.
I think every human gets it atvarious points in their life,
even the most successful people.
I used to say to my kids,actually, that even somebody
like Barack Obama, who I'm a bigfan of, I'm sure he had moments
where he felt like he was animposter and yet he's a world
leader.
So everybody gets it and it'sjust a reminder that we're all
(15:27):
human.
So you get started, you raise abit of capital and then you
start hiring a team.
Was that super easy to find theright people?
You look on your website.
You look like you've got areally talented group of people.
Was that quite straightforwardgetting the right team together?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yes and no.
We yes and no.
We knew a lot of people alreadybecause of our experience, so
it was a little bit easier tofind the right people then and
we weren't trying to be a bigteam.
You know, it was only ever likeit was six people in the early
days and we've grown during theyears.
It's fluctuated to, you know,maybe up to 12.
And then I think we're aboutsix again now.
(16:00):
It wasn't too tricky, except weswitched from Unity to Unreal
Engine and there's definitelyless Unreal Engine developers
and engineers in New Zealandthan there is Unity.
So that caused us a bit oftrouble when we were trying to
scale and find more engineers.
But yeah, there's just so manytalented people in Wellington,
so not too hard.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Is the world flat in regards to what you do?
Is it easy enough to competewith others in wherever they are
in San Francisco, anywherearound the world?
Do you face any kind ofbarriers for being at the bottom
of the South Pacific, or is itactually it's just not an issue?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
You face relationship building issues and therefore
access to funds is often harder.
So you know where some of thethings we did in the early days,
like making a virtual realityat a therapy application which
ended up going through clinicaltrials and was proven to
actually help reduce anxiety.
So this amazing VR is thatripple?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
is that?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
yes, that's ripple, yeah, yeah you know, I feel like
if I had been overseas whenthat had happened, A, there
would have been funding to carryit on, which there wasn't here.
I think it would have beenpicked up by some other
platforms or easier to be pickedup by platforms, because I'm
seeing it done now, you know,and I think, wow, we were doing
that many years ago.
So I think that part you haveto travel a lot.
(17:22):
You know, relationships are keyin building those relationships
.
So it's really only in the lastfew years me getting out and
about a lot more that I've beenable to kind of build those
relationships, whether it's withMeta or Apple or Pico or
whoever.
So I think that's the onlylimiting thing personally.
Otherwise, you know, you canbuild from anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, what is cool is that for that Ripple product
and helping therapists work with.
You know anxiety.
You were a finalist at theWellington End of the Year in
the science and tech category,which is pretty cool, you know.
It's a real testament, eventhough, as you say, if you'd
been sitting in San Francisco,there may have been even bigger
accolades for what that was.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Thanks, yeah, yeah, and I think more than anything
it would have got more fundingto carry on, you know, and for
Breast Cancer Foundation, youknow, they, good on them,
managed to get some funding topull that together, but then to
do it any further was tricky forthem.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, what's the biggest challenge in building a
business like this?
In the world that you are in,all startups are a bit different
and your industry is verydifferent to many others.
What's been the biggestchallenge in building a business
like this is very different tomany others.
What's been the biggestchallenge in building a business
like this?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's an interesting question because capital is a
tricky thing.
When you're innovating early onand you live in a smaller
market, like we do, and you needcapital to get started, and
when you're experimenting andinnovating and trying new stuff,
you know there needs to be abudget for research and
development.
That's really important.
So probably that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And what would you say is your superpower?
Is it something that?
Is it the creative productionability?
Is it your belief?
What is that?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Is it a little bit of blind stupidity and
determination to make thingshappen?
Maybe?
Yeah, I think pulling peopletogether, you know, bringing
something from nothing, havingan idea and then seeing that
idea come to life, and making itcome to life, whether it's
through finding the right people, producing it, having that
creativity to put it out thereand that kind of guts, I guess
(19:20):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And if you were sort of giving advice to other
founders out there, would youconsider or suggest to people
that they double down on theirstrengths and just purely focus
on their strengths, or do theyaddress their weaknesses and try
and tackle those?
What's the better approach ifyou had to make that choice
their weaknesses and try andtackle those.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
What's the better approach if you had to make that
choice?
It depends what your weaknessis.
Look, I mean I can anything youknow.
If you're in a leadershipposition, if you're running a
company, if you're a founder,it's really important to
understand and be aware of thoseareas that are your strengths
and weaknesses.
I don't necessarily thinkdoubling down on it is, you know
, maybe the best idea, but youmight want to double down on
(19:55):
what you're really good at soyou can make stuff happen, but
being aware and conscious andtrying to learn and grow as a
leader.
I'm actually doing the abroadprogram for the second time, I
don't know if you know.
It's a leadership program runhere.
We have weekly sessionstogether with other founders or
leaders and and you address allthe things around imposter
syndrome, around anxiety andfear and lots of leadership
(20:16):
stuff, and I think it's reallyimportant to work on all of that
.
But if you've got a skill,double down on it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, and is it quite collegial where you are and the
industry and in Wellingtonaround building these things, or
does it feel really competitiveat times?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It was competitive at the start when we were all
pitching in for these five$10,000 small jobs that were
going.
That was tricky, you know,because there were a bunch of us
trying hard and we were allfriends and we know each other
at such a small country.
But now, absolutely justfriendships and sharing of
contacts and helping each otherout, reviewing each other's
pitches that happens on a dailybasis.
(20:52):
For me, I feel very fortunateabout the industry here, whether
it's amazing people like Mariofrom Pickpock, who has just been
just so kind and generous andwhat an amazing success story,
or Sam Ramloo up in Auckland,you know, with her VR game
Wanderer, you know there's somuch talent here and we all
share and work together and soI'm very grateful that I'm no
(21:13):
longer in that competitive kindof industry with my peers,
because I don't actually likethat.
It's not much fun.
It's fine with overseas people,but I don't want to do it here
yeah, I think interesting aboutWellington is it just?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
it just reeks creativity and innovation.
It's just the most incrediblecity for developers and for
artists and digital creators.
It's got that vibe about it,just everything about it.
It's like a little mini SanFrancisco and even some of the
architecture is very similar tosome of the traditional old
housing in and around SanFrancisco.
If those of you listening arefrom San Francisco, check out
(21:46):
Wellington.
It's actually a super, supercool place.
Now you've got the release of anew game coming up next week.
We'll talk about that soon, butI'd love you to take us through
a couple of the other you knowcreative projects you've worked
on.
You was it Fluff WorldCombinauts?
Tell us a little bit aboutthese.
What were they, how did theycome about, who were the
(22:07):
customers, etc.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, so, yeah, we've had a few different things
we've done over the years.
So Oddball was our first, as Ikind of mentioned, our first
game, and that's a multiplayerfree roam game.
So you're wearing a wirelessheadset and you can move around
the room together and that's alittle bit like playing laser
tag.
But you know, the world we'dcreated was like a Dr Seuss
world where you turn each otherinto giant pineapples and, you
(22:29):
know, silly, it was silly, youknow a silly fun and it's
competitive, and that was allour own IP.
And that was very much learningabout the hardware and creating
our own system so that we cancontrol the tracking of people,
because when you're in aphysical space with eight people
and they've all got headsets on, the tracking needs to be
really perfect because if it'snot, they'll crash into each
(22:49):
other and that's a health andsafety hazard.
So we had to do quite a lot ofstuff outside of just the game
itself.
Yeah, so that was really cool.
And Bluff World was, you know,an old friend of mine, aaron,
you know, created these rabbitsand gave me a call one day and
said I've made these rabbits andeverybody loves them and I'm
like what Rabbits?
And he said, yeah, and theyneed a home.
(23:09):
Do you want to make them a homeand them a home and you do
virtual reality still, right, Iwas like, hold up, let me just
get on the computer andunderstand what you're talking
about here.
And yes, we made these 3Dworlds, these homes, the burrows
for these characters to bringthem to life and give them a
place where they could be, andthat was really fun.
We had good success with thatand managed to do some really
(23:31):
awesome things, like with thatmoney, like a million dollars
between us to Auckland CityMission and all you know, and
that was amazing.
And then we moved intoCombinauts.
Combinauts is actually stillunreleased and that was
originally a collab with WetaWorkshop.
Richard Taylor had kind of beenan early fan, I guess, of the
work we'd done.
He was just getting into kindof the location-based space in
(23:54):
terms of gaming, looking atgaming and VR, and he came and
played Oddball and he said, oh,it's the most fun I've ever had
in VR, and I used that quotewherever I could.
Absolutely yeah.
So Combinauts, afamily-friendly multiplayer game
, again for the Oculus Quest.
And then moved on to, you know,a few little other little
projects, but those were kind ofthe main ones over the years.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And for those listening who don't know who
Richard Taylor is, richardTaylor was the founder, creator,
ceo of Wesa Workshops, whichdid all of the creative work
behind Lord of the Rings andmany other success stories in
New Zealand.
And now you've got a game thatreleases next week.
I don't know even how youmanaged to make the time to be
(24:37):
here today.
I'm presuming it's trackingwell, so tell us about that and
what you can tell us about that,yeah, yeah, it's called
Runaways and it's for the AppleVision Pro.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
It's an infinite runner.
So for fans of Subway Surfersor Outer Odyssey or any of those
kind of games, but it's anaugmented reality or it's a
spatial game.
They use the term spatialcomputing and so, again, you can
see your real environment.
And then our game is in thatenvironment and your first
chapter, the first campaign.
(25:07):
Everyone has a comic book, sothat's how you learn about the
story and the background of thecharacters.
And you are playing Hank in thefirst one.
He is a lovely, rebellious dudewho has escaped the evil
overlord who's been making himmind you know bloop for many,
many years and he's found aportal into our world and is on
(25:28):
the run, and so these tentaclesare trying to get you.
This weird overlord's trying toget you and you're running away
from him and it's all handcontrol on Apple Vision Pro.
So you're jumping.
You know a little pinch to jumpand you can disarm the traps,
otherwise he ends up dying andyou get blooped all over your
room.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
What sort of time does it take to create a game
like Runaways?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, this game was, to be honest, pretty short
timeframe because we reallywanted to be early on the
headset, and so this game isprobably about, I guess, six
months maybe.
Yeah, five, six months.
So, from the early prototypingat the end of last year, we
didn't have an Apple Vision Pro,so we were prototyping on a
meter, coming up with ideas.
(26:10):
What we do when we're doingthat is finding the fun.
That's what we call it.
Like, is it fun?
And so you're just testing outthese little theories of
something that might be fun.
And, yeah, so we were doingthat at the end of last year.
And then when we thought, yes,we found a fun bit, then you go
into production and and you makeit, and then you do heaps of
testing and it takes way longerat that end than you think it
(26:33):
will, because you're like, oh,there's a bug, oh, that that
doesn't work oh, ui looks funnyon that and it's a whole new
user experience.
As you know, the ui the hardwareitself, is different.
We didn't even have the headsetuntil february, so you know we
were building in a simulatorrather than actually being able
to push your builds onto theheadset and see what that's like
.
So yeah, all sorts, all sortsof interesting challenges, but
(26:55):
fun as well.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, I can imagine the user testing for a product
in the gaming world must bereally challenging, because
there are so many differentplaces that your player or
whatever could go into a roomand it might be in one part of
the room where you get an issuebut not in another part of the
room, and that must bechallenging.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and just yeah.
The environment can throw upissues and you don't.
Yeah, you can't go to everyenvironment.
There's a bug that seems tohappen.
That did happen in my house.
That would never happen in theoffice and I'll be you know and
so you're trying to recreate itand replicate it and you're like
, no, this is what happened.
And you're like why?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I don't know.
Is it my house, my floor?
Hey, just let me pause youthere for a second and tell you
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headaches.
Let's get back to the show, andso, with the product going out
there with Runaways now like,who is your customer here?
Are you building this for Appleor do you build this in your
own right?
And then you every gamer,essentially is buying this
product.
How does that work?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, I mean, we are building it to publish it on the
Apple Vision Pro and we're youknow, we're an indie studio and
we're self-publishing, but we do, you know, we have investors
and they've helped support us tohave the funds to be able to
make a game on a new platformlike this, because we're not
being paid to do it.
Some companies might have gotfunding to do it if they're on
Apple Arcade.
And the audience are thosequite limited people at the
(28:57):
moment who can afford an AppleVision Pro.
It's three and a half thousandUS dollars, although there's
talk of another one that will bea little bit less expensive and
there's about between about500,000 to 900,000, I think they
estimate out there in themarket at the moment.
And those people, you knowthey're a little bit different
from, say, the meta audience and, again, the people who use a
(29:18):
meta.
Again, there's lots ofsegmentations of who those
audience are, whether they'reparticipant parents who like to
play games with their kids orthe hardcore gamer.
And Apple Vision Pro has neverbeen sold or marketed as a
gaming headset.
It's a spatial computingheadset headset and it's all
about spatial computing andthere's lots of productivity
(29:38):
applications on it.
But, yeah, those people we'retrying to make a game that we
feel everyone who owns it wouldlike it, because it's fun, it's
accessible, it's not toocomplicated, it's sticky, it
makes you want to go back againto get a better high score.
You know it's got thatcompetitiveness and it's taking
a lot of those traditional gamemechanics from old runners.
(30:00):
So we're not reinventing thewheel in that way, but what
we're doing is bringing thesereally beautiful graphics to
life in a really fun way inaugmented reality.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
How important is it for you to be able to sort of
second guess who's going todominate the headset market and
where that's going to go between, say, an Apple and a Meta or
other players?
Or can you sort of sit behindthat wave a little bit and just
see what's playing out and thenbuild accordingly?
Do you have to be able to lookinto the future on this?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
You do have to look into the future because if you
want to be early on a headsetlike the Apple Vision Pro, then
you've got to start buildingbefore it comes out.
And we've done that the wholeway.
We were building for Meta andour free roam game.
Before we had a Meta Quest inour hands, we were using other
hardware.
So, yes, if you want to be anearly innovator and an early
(30:51):
person company on thoseplatforms, you've got to take a
huge risk and build like that.
If you're not and you just wantto wait, great, you can let
other people make some sillymistakes and play their stuff
and learn from them.
But you know, watching thosecompanies and seeing well, a
who's making the investments init, like who's in this for the
long run, and you know, as muchas people might hate Facebook,
(31:13):
meta Zuckerberg he really didcreate the VR industry by
putting so much funding in andmaking a headset that was
accessible to many, many people.
You no longer needed a strongPC.
It's not plugged in.
I think the current Meta 2, youcan get for about two or three
(31:33):
hundred US dollars, you know.
So he did that and that reallyenabled the industry to grow and
they have about, I think, 30million headsets out there now,
so it's a pretty big market.
You know still niche, but it'sgrowing massively.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So yeah, he's taken a huge amount of flack as well
from Wall Street, from investors, from tech writers around the
bets he's placing on some ofthis stuff.
Where do you see this goingover time?
Not so much just meta, but themetaverse, digital reality,
whether it's in productivityapps, etc.
What's your view of the futurearound how we're going to use
(32:11):
augmented reality, virtualreality?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I think virtual reality will always be one that
people will want to spend sometime in, but not all the time in
, and I don't think it's healthyto spend all the time in a
virtual world.
Augmented reality is a reallyinteresting one because you can
go back to the Google Glassright, glasses right.
We start thinking about thatand we know that Meta are
(32:33):
working on augmented realityglasses and as soon as something
becomes small enough that we'reall happy with wearing it and
it's not too expensive but nowwe can see, we can have that
same technology in our eyes,just looking around and I can
see whatever I might want to see, whether it's the pipes under
the ground or the name of thatbuilding and the history of that
(32:56):
building.
You know, it's all there at myfingertips, my voice, but also
visually.
That's where it's going andthat will be a real game changer
and a really interestingtransition for humans, I think,
when that happens.
But yeah, the metaverse thing,that's a tricky one.
I mean, I have never been thatbig on the word of it and some
of the thoughts of us blendingeverything together and it's all
(33:18):
integrated and you justseamlessly go from AR to VR, to
one person's application toanother.
Back to reality.
I mean, that's kind of thevision for some people, but I'm
not 100% sure about it.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It's really interesting to see how this is
all going with our physicallives, our real lives, if you
like, where we live, where wephysically live, our
interactions with other humansin a cafe or whatever, versus
our digital lives and ourdigital identities and the
security around our digitalidentities, and just seeing how
these two converge over time andhow that will play out.
(33:52):
Yes, it's super, superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I think that's where Web3 and blockchain technology
comes in and hopefully willcontinue to play an important
factor in that, so we're notjust relying on these big giants
to own everything and to haveall our data and to know where
I'm looking in my room and tosee what my room looks like.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You know, there's all sorts of interesting privacy
issues, yeah, and hence why Web3is, in a way, is quite critical
around creating our security inthat new digital world, even
though it's still, in someplaces, still considered a
little bit early and a littlebit fringe I think who knows how
long, but it'll be way moremainstream.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It'll be the same as AI and VR.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
now you know, yeah yeah, and then at a very human
level and away from sort of thedigital.
I noticed that the values thatyou had, the Beyond Values up on
the website and that's supercool and I just I'd love to know
a little bit about how you cameup with those.
Like for one, the first one,which really I thought was so,
so awesome, is spreadingkindness.
(34:47):
So how did you go aboutbuilding the values for the
company?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
You know we'd always had values.
I did a lot of that work backin my days in Star Now around.
You know we'd always had values.
I did a lot of that work backin my days in Star Now around
you know what's our vision,what's our mission, and then
what do we stand for and how dowe make sure that we live those
not just words and corporatewords and therefore how we make
decisions.
And so that's kind of a similarthing that we did when we
started Beyond, and then we dida bit of a kind of like four
(35:12):
years in a bit of a refresh andlook at them and just kind of
sat down and went well, what'simportant to us and what we want
to be known for and how do wewant to make decisions?
And yeah, kindness for me inbusiness, you know, is really
important, because I didn'trealize how many people aren't
kind and you know you get toldthis oh, you have to be ruthless
, that's who wins.
(35:32):
And I just thought that surelythat's not true.
Surely we can be good people,we can have good ethics, we can
be kind to each other, we canstill be challenging, we can
still, you know, do hard things,but with kindness at the
forefront of it.
So that was just reallyimportant to me, that we were
seen and we did things thatstood for those values, like we
(35:56):
did the good games last year andjust thinking about when I do
it next for this year, which is,you know, two game studios
compete against each other andplay a game and then we, you
know, we donate to a charity.
So, yeah, things like that tomake sure we live those values.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And you seem like somebody that genuinely and
really authentically lives yourwhy so?
Whether that's around, you know, spreading fun, I mean even if
you look back to your childhoodand you were entertaining
because you, you know, I don'tknow what the motivation was as
a child to doing puppet shows,but you wanted to entertain, you
wanted to have fun and thatjust exudes through your pores,
(36:30):
right?
Does that make it easier whenyou're living that?
Why Does it make it easier todeal with the hard days that
inevitably come as a startup?
It?
Speaker 1 (36:38):
does it really does.
I think it's a really importantthing to figure out what your
why is, to do, the five whys,and also it can change.
But essentially, yes, for me,entertaining people, making them
laugh, making them smile,that's the most satisfaction I
can get in the world, and sothat gives me so much pleasure,
(36:59):
and so it was really easy forthat to be my personal mission
and therefore to work in a gamescompany where, you know, we
make people laugh and smile, andwe used to say, oh, what, what
success when people were playingoddball and it's like if they
smile then we win.
You know, if they came out, wesaw a big grin on their face.
That is success.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So, yeah, and what fills your bucket?
Like you're, obviously as acreative, you're giving a lot
and you're expending a lot ofenergy.
What does fill your bucket?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
nature getting out, getting out, because I, you know
, I am on a, on a screen a lot.
I'm around a screen, I'mlooking looking at headsets,
whatever it is.
There's a lot of technology andthere's a lot of time working
on things on a computer, butvery, very blessed to be here on
the water where I live and togo snorkeling.
I love that, go spearfishing, Igo fishing in general, just all
(37:50):
of that.
The sea is probably what fillsmy bucket the most.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, I think that the sea is probably what fills
my bucket the most.
Yeah, I think that theimportance of nature is just so
critical.
I was talking to the foundersof unyoked recently, and unyoked
is an off the grid cabinexperience around the world
where you cook on an open fire,you hand grind your coffee, you
can't see anybody, it's quietand you just connect with nature
, because we are all built toconnect with nature.
(38:14):
So, particularly for those ofus who are spending a lot of
time in front of a computer, itis just so, so, so critical.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
It's what recharges us definitely.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, and one of the things I suppose is and I'm kind
of jumping around a lot here,but you work with creatives and
some people find working withcreative people kind of
challenging.
With creatives, and some peoplefind working with creative
people kind of challenging.
How do you personally find youget the best out of creatives?
I mean, you are one.
How do you find working with acreative and, I guess, bringing
(38:44):
productivity to the creativeexperience?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
yeah, it.
It's an interesting one becauseyou know there's nothing worse
than telling somebody I need youto be really creative and come
up with this thing and build it,but also it needs to be done in
two days.
Well, you know.
And then they're like you know,that's not how our creative
brains work.
So there's an element offreedom that you have to give,
(39:07):
of trust.
You know you've got to be alittle bit more fluid on
timelines.
You know you really actually dothan other industries, because
creativity can take time ifyou're creating a character and
you know it's different fromother technology.
But of course, you do have tohave timelines because we all
have budgets.
So there just has to be a goodunderstanding relationship about
(39:32):
what that budget is and howlong we have.
And so you know, if people knowthat from the start, they know
how much time they have and canmanage it more mostly.
But yeah, definitely there hasto be a bit more freedom, I
think, and you know fluiditythan other ones, and we talked
about restoring yourself throughnature.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
But how do you sort of fill your head with ideas,
whether it's reading books or,you know, listening to things or
attending seminars, etc.
How do you personally find yougo about kind of learning in
your industry?
Speaker 1 (40:03):
yeah, I actually learn from the real world.
That's where I learn and itmight be a bit focused, like
going to an arcade, becausearcades in particular translate
really well in terms of thegaming experience into virtual
reality.
If you think about going totime zone or whatever and
playing something where you knowyou're whatever, whack-a-mole
(40:25):
or whatever.
If you go and do that and thenyou think about, oh, if I took
that mechanic of whackingsomething which I know is fun,
what if I did that in virtualreality but it wasn't that I was
whacking something which I knowis fun?
What if I did that in virtualreality but it wasn't that I was
whacking?
You know little gremlins thatare coming up and if I don't
whack them, they jump on my face.
So, taking that and thenthinking, wow, now I can allow
my imagination to go anywherebecause it's virtual reality.
(40:46):
So, yeah, I take a lot ofinspiration from physical games
and then just sitting aroundhaving silly ideas and laughs
with Anton, you know, imagine ifthis, oh, that could be cool.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Do you dive into other disciplines?
You know, because oftencreativity is like a confluence
of different things.
You know reading history orlistening to music or whatever.
Do those other things play intothis, or is it purely from the
creative experience of buildinggames?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
At the moment it is.
I mean, anton is a musician.
He was a DJ for many years andI play music and obviously I
made theatre shows and I thinkprobably a lot of my theatre
history and my love ofShakespeare and all of those
experiences have filtered intowhat I do now.
I mean, what I think about,yeah, but I would say mostly
(41:31):
it's very focused on how do wemake a fun sticky game and is it
fun and what is that coollittle thing that people are
going to love and make them wantto do it again?
I make casual games, so youknow I'm not doing these massive
, complex things, which is quitegood for me in my brain, but
just like, let's, let's trysomething.
(41:53):
Is it fun?
Is it fun to whack that?
Is it fun to control a littleguy who's racing across your
room?
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
What are you most excited about in the industry
and life right now?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I'm really excited about Apple.
I honestly am Like we talkedabout Apple Vision Pro or Apple
headset coming out since westarted.
It was like, if just you wait,you know, when you're all those
people doubting you yeah, it's afad, you know.
And you're like, don't worry,it won't be when Apple releases
one, I promise you know.
And then they took so long Istarted to be like, oh no, what
(42:23):
if they don't release one?
And so having them now in thisindustry their expertise is
amazing.
Headset, like, the capabilitythat it has is just incredible.
So now they're in the game andthey don't go, they don't do
anything by halves, whether youmight, you know, if you just
think about it, the first Applewatch, you know, you might've
(42:44):
been like, eh, we're only justbeginning.
We're first gen.
I'm excited for second gen, I'mexcited for when people get in
it and try it, and I do believethat this is a game changer.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Well, as you said, you know it's Apple.
So Apple have changed our livesin so many different ways.
We all love our Macs and ouriPhones, et cetera, and our
watches, and then they weredoing some work on an autonomous
vehicle, and then they'veobviously just recently
announced that they're notpursuing that.
It feels like the headset isthe future.
If we go back to what we weresaying before, you've got your
real world and then your digitalworld.
(43:16):
To have something that isbeautifully crafted, hardware
that just works and it worksinnately, will make a massive
difference to our lives.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Absolutely.
I mean, at the moment we'reputting phones in front of our
faces half the time.
You know we're looking down andwe've got this device.
It really isolates us fromother people as well.
It's a very isolating thing.
Our phone and as soon as weremove that, we all still want
screens and we're very addictedto them.
But once it's on your face,then the social elements change.
(43:47):
All sorts of things change.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
In what way do you think?
Obviously, with people with agiant sort of mask on their face
, it's going to be very clearthey're in that world.
Does that therefore make iteasier?
So they're not kind of in bothworlds, in that world right now.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, but I mean, of course, because it's spatial and
you can see who else is in theroom, you can converse with them
, you can walk around in it.
You know you're not as isolatedas the traditional VR headsets,
which didn't have thatcapability to be able to kind of
see the real world.
But yes, they're big right now,but they'll get smaller,
without a doubt, and so thenthey won't be that thing that
people go oh, what have you goton your face?
(44:22):
Oh, you're gonna headset on.
You know, leave them to it.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
So, yeah, that's when it will really change and
finally, have you got a tip forfounders?
You've been on this startupjourney now for a while.
You've lived in and around thecreative industries.
You're in a reallyfast-changing world of
technology around VR and AR.
Any sort of thoughts you wouldwant to leave for founders
listening to this about theirown journeys?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
You've got to be brave and bold, you've got to
try things and not be afraid ofthat failure and experimenting.
If you want to do something,just do it, you know, because
otherwise you're going to haveregrets in life.
And it's not to say you'regoing to make a unicorn or
whatever, but if there'ssomething you're interested in
and you're passionate about it,just be brave and just do it and
make it happen.
(45:05):
That would probably be my onlyone.
And then, of course, know thatit's going to be a crazy ride
and it's not going to be easy,never easy.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Jess, that is just.
Those are real words of wisdom.
Thank you so much for the timeyou've given today.
Janine Granger this is anotherJanine Granger introduction.
Janine just so highly rated youand you know, talked about you
being the OG in this world.
So, for those who don't know,janine was on an episode
recently and is the founder ofEasy Crypto.
(45:32):
So, jess, thank you so muchThank you.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
She's amazing.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
She is amazing, and so are you, and so are you.
And thank you for the way thatyou're trailing a real
trailblazer here on this path,so I know you will be a source
of inspiration for a lot ofother people that are thinking
about getting involved.
You know digital creativity, so, yeah, really appreciate your
time today.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you
(45:59):
being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash Greg and go and saveyourself some hard-earned money.
Kindness for me in business, you know, is really
important, because I didn'trealise how many people aren't
kind.
And you know you get told thisoh, you have to be ruthless,
that's who wins.
And I just thought that surelythat's not true.
Surely we can be good people.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Jess Mannins.
She is the co-CEO andco-founder of Beyond, and Beyond
are all about the creators ofvirtual worlds.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
You've got to be brave and bold, you've got to
try things and not be afraid ofthat failure and experimenting.
If you want to do something,just do it, you know, because
otherwise you're going to haveregrets in life.
And it's not to say you'regoing to make a unicorn or
whatever, but if there'ssomething you're interested in
and you're passionate about it,just be brave and just do it and
(00:51):
make it happen.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I know you will be a source of inspiration for a lot
of other people that arethinking about getting involved
in digital creativity.
Hey everybody, it's GregSheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
(01:15):
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
.
I want to tell you a little bitabout desk work.
Desk work is your offshoringoption.
If you want to save around 50%of your total headcount cost for
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Honestly, if I was looking tostart an accounting firm again,
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Go have a look at desk-workcobackslash, greg, and book
(01:59):
yourself a free discovery callto learn more about it.
Better still, mention my nameand get yourself some discounts.
Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Jess Mannins.
Jess, a super, super impressiveindividual.
She is the co-CEO andco-founder of Beyond, and Beyond
(02:21):
are all about the creators ofvirtual worlds.
Jess, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Kia ora.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
It is so cool to have you.
This is one of these sort ofconversations where I feel like
I'm so naturally intrigued tolearn more about the world of
virtual creation and this worldof VR and AR, et cetera.
I'm naturally curious, but Ifeel like I really know very
little about it, so it'll bejust from my own personal point
of view.
It'll be really interesting tokind of learn about that.
(02:48):
But I always love to startthese podcasts with a bit of an
origin story about you.
Now, I know you spent a bit oftime in theatre, but just take
us through your childhood andhow you got to be where you are
now.
Were you always a kid who wasdestined to be in this world of
creative design?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Definitely in creative industries.
Yes, from a very small age Iwas that kid that was forcing
her parents to sit on the couchwhile I was behind it doing
puppet shows.
So entertaining is in my bloodand is something that I've
always loved doing.
And, yeah, theatre was mypassion Theatre and then film
naturally progressed into that.
I actually studied televisionproduction and ended up doing
(03:30):
kind of a range of things infront of and behind the scenes,
worked over at Edinburgh FringeFestival, kind of did that run
as an actor, and then ended upgetting into technology and just
and finding a passion fortechnology.
And I think that's naturallywhere the world of what I do now
VR and AR collided with myworld of entertainment and
(03:51):
passion for, you know, bringingjoy and fun into people's world,
which is what I always did,yeah.
So, yeah, as a kid, definitelyall of that, and then
improvising you know, all ofthat I did it, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Puppet shows.
I think that's actually quitefunny because essentially,
you're just building digitalpuppet shows and digital
creation.
I think that's super cool.
And before we sort of get intothe origin story around Beyond
and by the way, I love thedomain name you guys have got
the beyondfun.
I just think that's so cool.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
It's such a good domain name.
We get through so many domains.
You know, when you're trying tochoose one, of course com is
domain.
You know, when you're trying tochoose one, of course dot com
is gone.
Yeah.
And then we're like, what about?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
dot fun.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Yeah, no, it's really the only thing is, everyone
then thinks our company name isbeyond dot fun, which it's not.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's beyond yeah, but it's still given that fun is a
massive part of what you do.
I think it's really really cool.
It is so what I'd love you todo.
Before we sort of talk a bitabout the origin of beyond, how
you and Anton got started, I'mkeen just to have you paint a
little bit of a picture of.
You know, there'll be a bunchof people who are listening to
this who don't know what AR orVR or XR or MR and they don't
(04:53):
really know what those thingsare.
They may be broadly aware thatthere's some what people
wandering around with some weirdthings on their eyes.
They know they've heard aboutgaming.
I'd love you to just sort ofpaint a little bit of a picture
of what augmented reality,virtual reality, et cetera, is
all about.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Yeah, so virtual reality is one which takes you
into a completely new virtualworld, you know.
And so, if you think about it,when you put the headset on when
there's so many different typesof VR headsets it completely
immerses you in anotherenvironment, whether that is a
3D created world, animated youcould be on the moon, whatever
(05:30):
you could be at a game, but inits 360.
So, you know, if you're lookingaround, you can see that full
world or augmented reality iswhere you can still see your
real world.
But then there is digitalobjects or games overlaid within
that real environment, and so Icould be here and I'm in my
(05:51):
lounge, and then I can also,with my headset on or through my
phone, see fun little animatedthings happening, you know,
through that.
And then there's so many otherwords right now, like spatial
computing, spatial gaming, mr,xr.
They often just encompass allof that, but those are the kind
of the two key ones.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
And so it's a really nice sort of way of kind of
leading into the origin storyaround Beyond.
So, from my understanding, yougot started what seven years ago
, but in 2017, how did that allplay out?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I was actually working at the Biz Dojo when I
had my first kind of VRexperience, which was with a
Wellington company, 8i, and wewere putting on a showcase and I
put on a headset then for thefirst time and saw their content
and naturally was just blownaway Because it really the first
time you ever try VR.
It is hard to explain, but itis amazing.
It's nothing like you've ever,you know, could imagine.
(06:41):
And so I learned about it and Iwas like this is so cool, look
at the possibilities.
You know it's been around for along time but it was just
starting.
That quality of the content wasstarting to grow.
You know the quality of theheadsets and what they were
capable of doing.
And then also Pokemon Go cameout and, as cliche as it is, you
know, I had to go and I waslike this is so cool, wow, I'm
(07:05):
looking at my phone and all ofthese little fun characters and
I'm playing a game and I couldreally see the potential.
And so I ended up opening aresearch and development centre
in Taranaki Street calledProjector, and the aim of that
was kind of to bring peopletogether from both university,
you know, for professionals,corporate, and give people
opportunity to try new gear.
So, you know, for professionals, corporate and give people an
opportunity to try new gear.
So, you know, have all theheadsets there, collaborate on
(07:28):
projects and just try and growthe industry as a whole and
create a bit of an ecosystem.
And so that's how I got startedand how I met Anton, who was
also, in those early stages,excited about AR and he was
making a multiplayer AR game onthe Google Tango back then.
You know hardware that nolonger even exists.
And then, of course, I ended upbeing like oh, you know what my
(07:49):
passion is, to actually makethe content is to try and dive
into this and see if I can comeback to my creative roots and do
it.
So yeah, that's the originstory.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Was it confronting doing that in a world that was
fully digital and I wouldimagine you needed to have some
element of development skill, orwas that not really?
It just didn't really get inyour way.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
Yes, and that is a challenge when you're not a
technical person, you know, andyou can't develop yourself.
And yeah, now my team.
Of course, I work with veryhighly skilled engineers and 3D
artists, you know, so both sidesof it highly technical and very
skilled in something that Ican't do.
But I had been working prior todoing co-working.
I'd been working at a companycalled Star Now, which is
another very awesome New Zealandsuccess story online auditions
(08:36):
website for the entertainmentindustry, and so I'd got pretty
good with understandingtechnology and what goes into it
and working with developers andworking with designers.
So I knew that a successfulcompany is about having a
successful and great team aroundyou, and so it didn't really
matter that I can't do it myselfI have many other skills but I
can find that it's fantasticpeople to work with me, so that
(08:57):
didn't stop me.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
And so you and Anton, you're in Taranaki Street, and
Taranaki Street, for thoselistening outside of New Zealand
, is in Wellington, new Zealand,aotearoa.
And so you get started.
But was that sort of an easyjourney getting started?
Let's incorporate a company,throw in some cash, boom, we get
a success, we're away.
Or was it finding funding?
How did that all kind of play?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
out.
Are you kidding?
When did that ever?
Speaker 2 (09:20):
happen Exactly.
It might have been a rhetoricalquestion, but yeah, how did
that?
Speaker 1 (09:25):
go, I think.
So Come on.
No, you know, yes, we got somejobs, but it was small and
scrappy and you know you're justtrying as best you can to A
convince people about thetechnology but then also make
sure they're using it in theright way and not just a gimmick
.
But yes, we did a bunch ofdifferent kind of experiences
brought William Wairoa toaugmented reality for the
(09:45):
election.
You know he touhu VR, so we didphotogrammetry of all of those
amazing documents in our historyand brought them into a VR
experience.
So a range of different things.
And I guess doing that kind ofservices work enabled us to
learn a lot along the way, andit was then that, you know, of
course, for us we really wantedto do our own thing and have our
(10:06):
own IP and we started toexplore what the opportunities
were in terms of games.
And we went to an augmentedworld expo over in the States
and we had an experience whereit was a multiplayer game in VR,
but you wore these backpack PCsand they had OptiTrack systems
up there.
You know, like all up probably$100,000 worth of hardware and
(10:28):
we played this amazing game andit was so simple.
It was just a co-op game tryingto help each other get across a
shark infested pond, you know,to dodge lasers and not get hit,
or you had to go back to thestart.
And we thought, oh man, this isamazing, just doing something
together in VR and seeing eachother's avatar, that's just so
(10:49):
fun.
And we thought, well, theremust be a way to do this without
that $100,000 overhead.
You know of that hardware.
And it was the early days ofOculus Quest Meta now coming out
, and we thought maybe we can dosomething using their headsets
so we can eliminate having tohave all of that tracking system
.
And it was off the back of thatway back of that that we raised
(11:10):
some capital for our first gameoddball and was that so up
until that time you were doingservices work?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
had you sort of gone all in on this, or were you
doing other day jobs as well?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
pretty much all in, except I did have this funny
contract to helping to set up atech hub in Mauritius out of
Africa.
Yeah, just you know as you do,because I'd had that expertise
and that kind of co-working andaccelerators and they were
looking at doing kind of ablockchain-based kind of space
over there.
The government was reallytrying to get new skills and
(11:42):
people into Mauritius andthrough a friend of a friend, I
ended up helping them with theirbusiness plan.
So I had a little bit of cashcoming in from that while I was
trying to hustle on the otherside for the VR and AR stuff.
But pretty much all in.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And so then you raised capital.
How did you do that?
Did you go to Angels or did yougo straight to VCs?
Speaker 1 (11:58):
I guess you could call it a friends and family.
A friend, a very wealthy friend, who at a lunch one day said
you know this VR stuff you'vebeen talking to me about for
years.
I'm actually kind of keen tosee it.
Now, take me to your office andshow me.
We had a little experience andwe'd actually kind of done this
kind of mixed reality experiencewhere we'd mapped the real
couch with a virtual couch, youknow, so they're in the same
(12:19):
space and so you could put theheadset on and you could
actually sit down on the realcouch and see the virtual one.
And that's a very buzzyexperience, you know, when you
mix those two together and youcan physically feel it.
And he was like I'm in, I'm in,let's make something.
And so not a traditional way ofraising capital, but later on,
yes, I did raise capital throughtraditional methods, like Angel
(12:41):
HQ and a few of our localinvestors.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
And did it take some convincing of some of the local
angel investors of what even isthis?
So your mate gets it, that'sawesome, but I'm picking it as a
bunch of people sitting in anangel group on their chairs
going what the heck is that?
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, and you know, some of my investors are classic
.
I love them, they're so braveto have taken a chance on us.
But they literally said you'rean experiment, jessica, we don't
know half the time what you'retalking about, but we're kind of
curious so we're gonna give ita go.
But yes, there was a lot ofeducation, like everything in
those early days of convincingpeople that this is going to be
(13:18):
in a sector, that VR gaming willbe big and like anything.
People like yeah, yeah, yeah,sure, and I think at the time
early on at projector, we hadsome of the the early guys who
were right into AI and you knowit was a similar kind of thing
eight, nine years ago wherepeople were kind of like, oh
yeah, you weird techie peopleoff in the corner.
Now everyone's like, ah, ai, ahVR.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
Did you ever have moments of self-doubt through
that process?
You're a confident person,you're an actress, you've had a
background in theatre, you'vedone puppet shows right, so
you're confident in presentingsomething.
But there must have been timeswhere you were like, oh man,
this is hard.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
Absolutely.
So many times.
I mean, imposter syndrome is areal thing.
And when you're learning a newskill and a new technology and
you have to kind of be theexpert, when you're not an
expert and you're still learningand I never claim to be an
expert there's times where youthink, oh, I'm a fraud, should I
even be doing this?
Have I got the right skills todo this?
(14:16):
And especially when I movedinto gaming because I didn't
have the gaming credentials.
You know, I might have come froma creative background.
I'm very good at producing, Ihave a creative eye, I
understand entertainment, I'mpassionate about customers and
players and what they get out ofit.
I always focus on that first.
But I felt a little bit of afraud when I got into gaming,
(14:37):
cause, you know, here are thesepeople who, it's like I'm a
hardcore gamer, and what game doyou play, you know?
And I'm like I used to likeMonkey Island, you know.
So, yes, absolutely.
But over the years thatconfidence has grown massively.
And when you have somesuccesses, along with many
failures which I definitely havehad, of course then your
(14:58):
confidence grows more becauseyou realise I can do this.
And when you surround yourselfwith talented people, together
you can do it, so yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
And I'm pleased you raised the topic of imposter
syndrome because I know Ipersonally have that constantly.
I think every human gets it atvarious points in their life,
even the most successful people.
I used to say to my kids,actually, that even somebody
like Barack Obama, who I'm a bigfan of, I'm sure he had moments
where he felt like he was animposter and yet he's a world
leader.
So everybody gets it and it'sjust a reminder that we're all
(15:27):
human.
So you get started, you raise abit of capital and then you
start hiring a team.
Was that super easy to find theright people?
You look on your website.
You look like you've got areally talented group of people.
Was that quite straightforwardgetting the right team together?
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yes and no.
We yes and no.
We knew a lot of people alreadybecause of our experience, so
it was a little bit easier tofind the right people then and
we weren't trying to be a bigteam.
You know, it was only ever likeit was six people in the early
days and we've grown during theyears.
It's fluctuated to, you know,maybe up to 12.
And then I think we're aboutsix again now.
(16:00):
It wasn't too tricky, except weswitched from Unity to Unreal
Engine and there's definitelyless Unreal Engine developers
and engineers in New Zealandthan there is Unity.
So that caused us a bit oftrouble when we were trying to
scale and find more engineers.
But yeah, there's just so manytalented people in Wellington,
so not too hard.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Is the world flat in regards to what you do?
Is it easy enough to competewith others in wherever they are
in San Francisco, anywherearound the world?
Do you face any kind ofbarriers for being at the bottom
of the South Pacific, or is itactually it's just not an issue?
Speaker 1 (16:39):
You face relationship building issues and therefore
access to funds is often harder.
So you know where some of thethings we did in the early days,
like making a virtual realityat a therapy application which
ended up going through clinicaltrials and was proven to
actually help reduce anxiety.
So this amazing VR is thatripple?
Speaker 2 (17:00):
is that?
Speaker 1 (17:00):
yes, that's ripple, yeah, yeah you know, I feel like
if I had been overseas whenthat had happened, A, there
would have been funding to carryit on, which there wasn't here.
I think it would have beenpicked up by some other
platforms or easier to be pickedup by platforms, because I'm
seeing it done now, you know,and I think, wow, we were doing
that many years ago.
So I think that part you haveto travel a lot.
(17:22):
You know, relationships are keyin building those relationships
.
So it's really only in the lastfew years me getting out and
about a lot more that I've beenable to kind of build those
relationships, whether it's withMeta or Apple or Pico or
whoever.
So I think that's the onlylimiting thing personally.
Otherwise, you know, you canbuild from anywhere.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
Yeah, what is cool is that for that Ripple product
and helping therapists work with.
You know anxiety.
You were a finalist at theWellington End of the Year in
the science and tech category,which is pretty cool, you know.
It's a real testament, eventhough, as you say, if you'd
been sitting in San Francisco,there may have been even bigger
accolades for what that was.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Thanks, yeah, yeah, and I think more than anything
it would have got more fundingto carry on, you know, and for
Breast Cancer Foundation, youknow, they, good on them,
managed to get some funding topull that together, but then to
do it any further was tricky forthem.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Yeah, what's the biggest challenge in building a
business like this?
In the world that you are in,all startups are a bit different
and your industry is verydifferent to many others.
What's been the biggestchallenge in building a business
like this is very different tomany others.
What's been the biggestchallenge in building a business
like this?
Speaker 1 (18:25):
It's an interesting question because capital is a
tricky thing.
When you're innovating early onand you live in a smaller
market, like we do, and you needcapital to get started, and
when you're experimenting andinnovating and trying new stuff,
you know there needs to be abudget for research and
development.
That's really important.
So probably that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
And what would you say is your superpower?
Is it something that?
Is it the creative productionability?
Is it your belief?
What is that?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
Is it a little bit of blind stupidity and
determination to make thingshappen?
Maybe?
Yeah, I think pulling peopletogether, you know, bringing
something from nothing, havingan idea and then seeing that
idea come to life, and making itcome to life, whether it's
through finding the right people, producing it, having that
creativity to put it out thereand that kind of guts, I guess
(19:20):
yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And if you were sort of giving advice to other
founders out there, would youconsider or suggest to people
that they double down on theirstrengths and just purely focus
on their strengths, or do theyaddress their weaknesses and try
and tackle those?
What's the better approach ifyou had to make that choice
their weaknesses and try andtackle those.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
What's the better approach if you had to make that
choice?
It depends what your weaknessis.
Look, I mean I can anything youknow.
If you're in a leadershipposition, if you're running a
company, if you're a founder,it's really important to
understand and be aware of thoseareas that are your strengths
and weaknesses.
I don't necessarily thinkdoubling down on it is, you know
, maybe the best idea, but youmight want to double down on
(19:55):
what you're really good at soyou can make stuff happen, but
being aware and conscious andtrying to learn and grow as a
leader.
I'm actually doing the abroadprogram for the second time, I
don't know if you know.
It's a leadership program runhere.
We have weekly sessionstogether with other founders or
leaders and and you address allthe things around imposter
syndrome, around anxiety andfear and lots of leadership
(20:16):
stuff, and I think it's reallyimportant to work on all of that
.
But if you've got a skill,double down on it.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
Yeah, and is it quite collegial where you are and the
industry and in Wellingtonaround building these things, or
does it feel really competitiveat times?
Speaker 1 (20:30):
It was competitive at the start when we were all
pitching in for these five$10,000 small jobs that were
going.
That was tricky, you know,because there were a bunch of us
trying hard and we were allfriends and we know each other
at such a small country.
But now, absolutely justfriendships and sharing of
contacts and helping each otherout, reviewing each other's
pitches that happens on a dailybasis.
(20:52):
For me, I feel very fortunateabout the industry here, whether
it's amazing people like Mariofrom Pickpock, who has just been
just so kind and generous andwhat an amazing success story,
or Sam Ramloo up in Auckland,you know, with her VR game
Wanderer, you know there's somuch talent here and we all
share and work together and soI'm very grateful that I'm no
(21:13):
longer in that competitive kindof industry with my peers,
because I don't actually likethat.
It's not much fun.
It's fine with overseas people,but I don't want to do it here
yeah, I think interesting aboutWellington is it just?
Speaker 2 (21:25):
it just reeks creativity and innovation.
It's just the most incrediblecity for developers and for
artists and digital creators.
It's got that vibe about it,just everything about it.
It's like a little mini SanFrancisco and even some of the
architecture is very similar tosome of the traditional old
housing in and around SanFrancisco.
If those of you listening arefrom San Francisco, check out
(21:46):
Wellington.
It's actually a super, supercool place.
Now you've got the release of anew game coming up next week.
We'll talk about that soon, butI'd love you to take us through
a couple of the other you knowcreative projects you've worked
on.
You was it Fluff WorldCombinauts?
Tell us a little bit aboutthese.
What were they, how did theycome about, who were the
(22:07):
customers, etc.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Yeah, so, yeah, we've had a few different things
we've done over the years.
So Oddball was our first, as Ikind of mentioned, our first
game, and that's a multiplayerfree roam game.
So you're wearing a wirelessheadset and you can move around
the room together and that's alittle bit like playing laser
tag.
But you know, the world we'dcreated was like a Dr Seuss
world where you turn each otherinto giant pineapples and, you
(22:29):
know, silly, it was silly, youknow a silly fun and it's
competitive, and that was allour own IP.
And that was very much learningabout the hardware and creating
our own system so that we cancontrol the tracking of people,
because when you're in aphysical space with eight people
and they've all got headsets on, the tracking needs to be
really perfect because if it'snot, they'll crash into each
(22:49):
other and that's a health andsafety hazard.
So we had to do quite a lot ofstuff outside of just the game
itself.
Yeah, so that was really cool.
And Bluff World was, you know,an old friend of mine, aaron,
you know, created these rabbitsand gave me a call one day and
said I've made these rabbits andeverybody loves them and I'm
like what Rabbits?
And he said, yeah, and theyneed a home.
(23:09):
Do you want to make them a homeand them a home and you do
virtual reality still, right, Iwas like, hold up, let me just
get on the computer andunderstand what you're talking
about here.
And yes, we made these 3Dworlds, these homes, the burrows
for these characters to bringthem to life and give them a
place where they could be, andthat was really fun.
We had good success with thatand managed to do some really
(23:31):
awesome things, like with thatmoney, like a million dollars
between us to Auckland CityMission and all you know, and
that was amazing.
And then we moved intoCombinauts.
Combinauts is actually stillunreleased and that was
originally a collab with WetaWorkshop.
Richard Taylor had kind of beenan early fan, I guess, of the
work we'd done.
He was just getting into kindof the location-based space in
(23:54):
terms of gaming, looking atgaming and VR, and he came and
played Oddball and he said, oh,it's the most fun I've ever had
in VR, and I used that quotewherever I could.
Absolutely yeah.
So Combinauts, afamily-friendly multiplayer game
, again for the Oculus Quest.
And then moved on to, you know,a few little other little
projects, but those were kind ofthe main ones over the years.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
And for those listening who don't know who
Richard Taylor is, richardTaylor was the founder, creator,
ceo of Wesa Workshops, whichdid all of the creative work
behind Lord of the Rings andmany other success stories in
New Zealand.
And now you've got a game thatreleases next week.
I don't know even how youmanaged to make the time to be
(24:37):
here today.
I'm presuming it's trackingwell, so tell us about that and
what you can tell us about that,yeah, yeah, it's called
Runaways and it's for the AppleVision Pro.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
It's an infinite runner.
So for fans of Subway Surfersor Outer Odyssey or any of those
kind of games, but it's anaugmented reality or it's a
spatial game.
They use the term spatialcomputing and so, again, you can
see your real environment.
And then our game is in thatenvironment and your first
chapter, the first campaign.
(25:07):
Everyone has a comic book, sothat's how you learn about the
story and the background of thecharacters.
And you are playing Hank in thefirst one.
He is a lovely, rebellious dudewho has escaped the evil
overlord who's been making himmind you know bloop for many,
many years and he's found aportal into our world and is on
(25:28):
the run, and so these tentaclesare trying to get you.
This weird overlord's trying toget you and you're running away
from him and it's all handcontrol on Apple Vision Pro.
So you're jumping.
You know a little pinch to jumpand you can disarm the traps,
otherwise he ends up dying andyou get blooped all over your
room.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
What sort of time does it take to create a game
like Runaways?
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well, this game was, to be honest, pretty short
timeframe because we reallywanted to be early on the
headset, and so this game isprobably about, I guess, six
months maybe.
Yeah, five, six months.
So, from the early prototypingat the end of last year, we
didn't have an Apple Vision Pro,so we were prototyping on a
meter, coming up with ideas.
(26:10):
What we do when we're doingthat is finding the fun.
That's what we call it.
Like, is it fun?
And so you're just testing outthese little theories of
something that might be fun.
And, yeah, so we were doingthat at the end of last year.
And then when we thought, yes,we found a fun bit, then you go
into production and and you makeit, and then you do heaps of
testing and it takes way longerat that end than you think it
(26:33):
will, because you're like, oh,there's a bug, oh, that that
doesn't work oh, ui looks funnyon that and it's a whole new
user experience.
As you know, the ui the hardwareitself, is different.
We didn't even have the headsetuntil february, so you know we
were building in a simulatorrather than actually being able
to push your builds onto theheadset and see what that's like
.
So yeah, all sorts, all sortsof interesting challenges, but
(26:55):
fun as well.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, I can imagine the user testing for a product
in the gaming world must bereally challenging, because
there are so many differentplaces that your player or
whatever could go into a roomand it might be in one part of
the room where you get an issuebut not in another part of the
room, and that must bechallenging.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, and just yeah.
The environment can throw upissues and you don't.
Yeah, you can't go to everyenvironment.
There's a bug that seems tohappen.
That did happen in my house.
That would never happen in theoffice and I'll be you know and
so you're trying to recreate itand replicate it and you're like
, no, this is what happened.
And you're like why?
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I don't know.
Is it my house, my floor?
Hey, just let me pause youthere for a second and tell you
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(28:16):
headaches.
Let's get back to the show, andso, with the product going out
there with Runaways now like,who is your customer here?
Are you building this for Appleor do you build this in your
own right?
And then you every gamer,essentially is buying this
product.
How does that work?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
Yeah, I mean, we are building it to publish it on the
Apple Vision Pro and we're youknow, we're an indie studio and
we're self-publishing, but we do, you know, we have investors
and they've helped support us tohave the funds to be able to
make a game on a new platformlike this, because we're not
being paid to do it.
Some companies might have gotfunding to do it if they're on
Apple Arcade.
And the audience are thosequite limited people at the
(28:57):
moment who can afford an AppleVision Pro.
It's three and a half thousandUS dollars, although there's
talk of another one that will bea little bit less expensive and
there's about between about500,000 to 900,000, I think they
estimate out there in themarket at the moment.
And those people, you knowthey're a little bit different
from, say, the meta audience and, again, the people who use a
(29:18):
meta.
Again, there's lots ofsegmentations of who those
audience are, whether they'reparticipant parents who like to
play games with their kids orthe hardcore gamer.
And Apple Vision Pro has neverbeen sold or marketed as a
gaming headset.
It's a spatial computingheadset headset and it's all
about spatial computing andthere's lots of productivity
(29:38):
applications on it.
But, yeah, those people we'retrying to make a game that we
feel everyone who owns it wouldlike it, because it's fun, it's
accessible, it's not toocomplicated, it's sticky, it
makes you want to go back againto get a better high score.
You know it's got thatcompetitiveness and it's taking
a lot of those traditional gamemechanics from old runners.
(30:00):
So we're not reinventing thewheel in that way, but what
we're doing is bringing thesereally beautiful graphics to
life in a really fun way inaugmented reality.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
How important is it for you to be able to sort of
second guess who's going todominate the headset market and
where that's going to go between, say, an Apple and a Meta or
other players?
Or can you sort of sit behindthat wave a little bit and just
see what's playing out and thenbuild accordingly?
Do you have to be able to lookinto the future on this?
Speaker 1 (30:31):
You do have to look into the future because if you
want to be early on a headsetlike the Apple Vision Pro, then
you've got to start buildingbefore it comes out.
And we've done that the wholeway.
We were building for Meta andour free roam game.
Before we had a Meta Quest inour hands, we were using other
hardware.
So, yes, if you want to be anearly innovator and an early
(30:51):
person company on thoseplatforms, you've got to take a
huge risk and build like that.
If you're not and you just wantto wait, great, you can let
other people make some sillymistakes and play their stuff
and learn from them.
But you know, watching thosecompanies and seeing well, a
who's making the investments init, like who's in this for the
long run, and you know, as muchas people might hate Facebook,
(31:13):
meta Zuckerberg he really didcreate the VR industry by
putting so much funding in andmaking a headset that was
accessible to many, many people.
You no longer needed a strongPC.
It's not plugged in.
I think the current Meta 2, youcan get for about two or three
(31:33):
hundred US dollars, you know.
So he did that and that reallyenabled the industry to grow and
they have about, I think, 30million headsets out there now,
so it's a pretty big market.
You know still niche, but it'sgrowing massively.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So yeah, he's taken a huge amount of flack as well
from Wall Street, from investors, from tech writers around the
bets he's placing on some ofthis stuff.
Where do you see this goingover time?
Not so much just meta, but themetaverse, digital reality,
whether it's in productivityapps, etc.
What's your view of the futurearound how we're going to use
(32:11):
augmented reality, virtualreality?
Speaker 1 (32:13):
I think virtual reality will always be one that
people will want to spend sometime in, but not all the time in
, and I don't think it's healthyto spend all the time in a
virtual world.
Augmented reality is a reallyinteresting one because you can
go back to the Google Glassright, glasses right.
We start thinking about thatand we know that Meta are
(32:33):
working on augmented realityglasses and as soon as something
becomes small enough that we'reall happy with wearing it and
it's not too expensive but nowwe can see, we can have that
same technology in our eyes,just looking around and I can
see whatever I might want to see, whether it's the pipes under
the ground or the name of thatbuilding and the history of that
(32:56):
building.
You know, it's all there at myfingertips, my voice, but also
visually.
That's where it's going andthat will be a real game changer
and a really interestingtransition for humans, I think,
when that happens.
But yeah, the metaverse thing,that's a tricky one.
I mean, I have never been thatbig on the word of it and some
of the thoughts of us blendingeverything together and it's all
(33:18):
integrated and you justseamlessly go from AR to VR, to
one person's application toanother.
Back to reality.
I mean, that's kind of thevision for some people, but I'm
not 100% sure about it.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
It's really interesting to see how this is
all going with our physicallives, our real lives, if you
like, where we live, where wephysically live, our
interactions with other humansin a cafe or whatever, versus
our digital lives and ourdigital identities and the
security around our digitalidentities, and just seeing how
these two converge over time andhow that will play out.
(33:52):
Yes, it's super, superinteresting.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
I think that's where Web3 and blockchain technology
comes in and hopefully willcontinue to play an important
factor in that, so we're notjust relying on these big giants
to own everything and to haveall our data and to know where
I'm looking in my room and tosee what my room looks like.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
You know, there's all sorts of interesting privacy
issues, yeah, and hence why Web3is, in a way, is quite critical
around creating our security inthat new digital world, even
though it's still, in someplaces, still considered a
little bit early and a littlebit fringe I think who knows how
long, but it'll be way moremainstream.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
It'll be the same as AI and VR.
Speaker 2 (34:27):
now you know, yeah yeah, and then at a very human
level and away from sort of thedigital.
I noticed that the values thatyou had, the Beyond Values up on
the website and that's supercool and I just I'd love to know
a little bit about how you cameup with those.
Like for one, the first one,which really I thought was so,
so awesome, is spreadingkindness.
(34:47):
So how did you go aboutbuilding the values for the
company?
Speaker 1 (34:50):
You know we'd always had values.
I did a lot of that work backin my days in Star Now around.
You know we'd always had values.
I did a lot of that work backin my days in Star Now around
you know what's our vision,what's our mission, and then
what do we stand for and how dowe make sure that we live those
not just words and corporatewords and therefore how we make
decisions.
And so that's kind of a similarthing that we did when we
started Beyond, and then we dida bit of a kind of like four
(35:12):
years in a bit of a refresh andlook at them and just kind of
sat down and went well, what'simportant to us and what we want
to be known for and how do wewant to make decisions?
And yeah, kindness for me inbusiness, you know, is really
important, because I didn'trealize how many people aren't
kind and you know you get toldthis oh, you have to be ruthless
, that's who wins.
(35:32):
And I just thought that surelythat's not true.
Surely we can be good people,we can have good ethics, we can
be kind to each other, we canstill be challenging, we can
still, you know, do hard things,but with kindness at the
forefront of it.
So that was just reallyimportant to me, that we were
seen and we did things thatstood for those values, like we
(35:56):
did the good games last year andjust thinking about when I do
it next for this year, which is,you know, two game studios
compete against each other andplay a game and then we, you
know, we donate to a charity.
So, yeah, things like that tomake sure we live those values.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
And you seem like somebody that genuinely and
really authentically lives yourwhy so?
Whether that's around, you know, spreading fun, I mean even if
you look back to your childhoodand you were entertaining
because you, you know, I don'tknow what the motivation was as
a child to doing puppet shows,but you wanted to entertain, you
wanted to have fun and thatjust exudes through your pores,
(36:30):
right?
Does that make it easier whenyou're living that?
Why Does it make it easier todeal with the hard days that
inevitably come as a startup?
It?
Speaker 1 (36:38):
does it really does.
I think it's a really importantthing to figure out what your
why is, to do, the five whys,and also it can change.
But essentially, yes, for me,entertaining people, making them
laugh, making them smile,that's the most satisfaction I
can get in the world, and sothat gives me so much pleasure,
(36:59):
and so it was really easy forthat to be my personal mission
and therefore to work in a gamescompany where, you know, we
make people laugh and smile, andwe used to say, oh, what, what
success when people were playingoddball and it's like if they
smile then we win.
You know, if they came out, wesaw a big grin on their face.
That is success.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
So, yeah, and what fills your bucket?
Like you're, obviously as acreative, you're giving a lot
and you're expending a lot ofenergy.
What does fill your bucket?
Speaker 1 (37:26):
nature getting out, getting out, because I, you know
, I am on a, on a screen a lot.
I'm around a screen, I'mlooking looking at headsets,
whatever it is.
There's a lot of technology andthere's a lot of time working
on things on a computer, butvery, very blessed to be here on
the water where I live and togo snorkeling.
I love that, go spearfishing, Igo fishing in general, just all
(37:50):
of that.
The sea is probably what fillsmy bucket the most.
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Yeah, I think that the sea is probably what fills
my bucket the most.
Yeah, I think that theimportance of nature is just so
critical.
I was talking to the foundersof unyoked recently, and unyoked
is an off the grid cabinexperience around the world
where you cook on an open fire,you hand grind your coffee, you
can't see anybody, it's quietand you just connect with nature
, because we are all built toconnect with nature.
(38:14):
So, particularly for those ofus who are spending a lot of
time in front of a computer, itis just so, so, so critical.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
It's what recharges us definitely.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Yeah, and one of the things I suppose is and I'm kind
of jumping around a lot here,but you work with creatives and
some people find working withcreative people kind of
challenging.
With creatives, and some peoplefind working with creative
people kind of challenging.
How do you personally find youget the best out of creatives?
I mean, you are one.
How do you find working with acreative and, I guess, bringing
(38:44):
productivity to the creativeexperience?
Speaker 1 (38:47):
yeah, it.
It's an interesting one becauseyou know there's nothing worse
than telling somebody I need youto be really creative and come
up with this thing and build it,but also it needs to be done in
two days.
Well, you know.
And then they're like you know,that's not how our creative
brains work.
So there's an element offreedom that you have to give,
(39:07):
of trust.
You know you've got to be alittle bit more fluid on
timelines.
You know you really actually dothan other industries, because
creativity can take time ifyou're creating a character and
you know it's different fromother technology.
But of course, you do have tohave timelines because we all
have budgets.
So there just has to be a goodunderstanding relationship about
(39:32):
what that budget is and howlong we have.
And so you know, if people knowthat from the start, they know
how much time they have and canmanage it more mostly.
But yeah, definitely there hasto be a bit more freedom, I
think, and you know fluiditythan other ones, and we talked
about restoring yourself throughnature.
Speaker 2 (39:48):
But how do you sort of fill your head with ideas,
whether it's reading books or,you know, listening to things or
attending seminars, etc.
How do you personally find yougo about kind of learning in
your industry?
Speaker 1 (40:03):
yeah, I actually learn from the real world.
That's where I learn and itmight be a bit focused, like
going to an arcade, becausearcades in particular translate
really well in terms of thegaming experience into virtual
reality.
If you think about going totime zone or whatever and
playing something where you knowyou're whatever, whack-a-mole
(40:25):
or whatever.
If you go and do that and thenyou think about, oh, if I took
that mechanic of whackingsomething which I know is fun,
what if I did that in virtualreality but it wasn't that I was
whacking something which I knowis fun?
What if I did that in virtualreality but it wasn't that I was
whacking?
You know little gremlins thatare coming up and if I don't
whack them, they jump on my face.
So, taking that and thenthinking, wow, now I can allow
my imagination to go anywherebecause it's virtual reality.
(40:46):
So, yeah, I take a lot ofinspiration from physical games
and then just sitting aroundhaving silly ideas and laughs
with Anton, you know, imagine ifthis, oh, that could be cool.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Do you dive into other disciplines?
You know, because oftencreativity is like a confluence
of different things.
You know reading history orlistening to music or whatever.
Do those other things play intothis, or is it purely from the
creative experience of buildinggames?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
At the moment it is.
I mean, anton is a musician.
He was a DJ for many years andI play music and obviously I
made theatre shows and I thinkprobably a lot of my theatre
history and my love ofShakespeare and all of those
experiences have filtered intowhat I do now.
I mean, what I think about,yeah, but I would say mostly
(41:31):
it's very focused on how do wemake a fun sticky game and is it
fun and what is that coollittle thing that people are
going to love and make them wantto do it again?
I make casual games, so youknow I'm not doing these massive
, complex things, which is quitegood for me in my brain, but
just like, let's, let's trysomething.
(41:53):
Is it fun?
Is it fun to whack that?
Is it fun to control a littleguy who's racing across your
room?
You know?
Speaker 2 (41:58):
What are you most excited about in the industry
and life right now?
Speaker 1 (42:03):
I'm really excited about Apple.
I honestly am Like we talkedabout Apple Vision Pro or Apple
headset coming out since westarted.
It was like, if just you wait,you know, when you're all those
people doubting you yeah, it's afad, you know.
And you're like, don't worry,it won't be when Apple releases
one, I promise you know.
And then they took so long Istarted to be like, oh no, what
(42:23):
if they don't release one?
And so having them now in thisindustry their expertise is
amazing.
Headset, like, the capabilitythat it has is just incredible.
So now they're in the game andthey don't go, they don't do
anything by halves, whether youmight, you know, if you just
think about it, the first Applewatch, you know, you might've
(42:44):
been like, eh, we're only justbeginning.
We're first gen.
I'm excited for second gen, I'mexcited for when people get in
it and try it, and I do believethat this is a game changer.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Well, as you said, you know it's Apple.
So Apple have changed our livesin so many different ways.
We all love our Macs and ouriPhones, et cetera, and our
watches, and then they weredoing some work on an autonomous
vehicle, and then they'veobviously just recently
announced that they're notpursuing that.
It feels like the headset isthe future.
If we go back to what we weresaying before, you've got your
real world and then your digitalworld.
(43:16):
To have something that isbeautifully crafted, hardware
that just works and it worksinnately, will make a massive
difference to our lives.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Absolutely.
I mean, at the moment we'reputting phones in front of our
faces half the time.
You know we're looking down andwe've got this device.
It really isolates us fromother people as well.
It's a very isolating thing.
Our phone and as soon as weremove that, we all still want
screens and we're very addictedto them.
But once it's on your face,then the social elements change.
(43:47):
All sorts of things change.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
In what way do you think?
Obviously, with people with agiant sort of mask on their face
, it's going to be very clearthey're in that world.
Does that therefore make iteasier?
So they're not kind of in bothworlds, in that world right now.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Yeah, but I mean, of course, because it's spatial and
you can see who else is in theroom, you can converse with them
, you can walk around in it.
You know you're not as isolatedas the traditional VR headsets,
which didn't have thatcapability to be able to kind of
see the real world.
But yes, they're big right now,but they'll get smaller,
without a doubt, and so thenthey won't be that thing that
people go oh, what have you goton your face?
(44:22):
Oh, you're gonna headset on.
You know, leave them to it.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
So, yeah, that's when it will really change and
finally, have you got a tip forfounders?
You've been on this startupjourney now for a while.
You've lived in and around thecreative industries.
You're in a reallyfast-changing world of
technology around VR and AR.
Any sort of thoughts you wouldwant to leave for founders
listening to this about theirown journeys?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
You've got to be brave and bold, you've got to
try things and not be afraid ofthat failure and experimenting.
If you want to do something,just do it, you know, because
otherwise you're going to haveregrets in life.
And it's not to say you'regoing to make a unicorn or
whatever, but if there'ssomething you're interested in
and you're passionate about it,just be brave and just do it and
make it happen.
(45:05):
That would probably be my onlyone.
And then, of course, know thatit's going to be a crazy ride
and it's not going to be easy,never easy.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
Jess, that is just.
Those are real words of wisdom.
Thank you so much for the timeyou've given today.
Janine Granger this is anotherJanine Granger introduction.
Janine just so highly rated youand you know, talked about you
being the OG in this world.
So, for those who don't know,janine was on an episode
recently and is the founder ofEasy Crypto.
(45:32):
So, jess, thank you so muchThank you.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
She's amazing.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
She is amazing, and so are you, and so are you.
And thank you for the way thatyou're trailing a real
trailblazer here on this path,so I know you will be a source
of inspiration for a lot ofother people that are thinking
about getting involved.
You know digital creativity, so, yeah, really appreciate your
time today.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you
(45:59):
being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash Greg and go and saveyourself some hard-earned money.
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