May 22, 2024 • 48 mins
Meet Julia Jones (known to many as "JJ") who joins us to share her knowledge and gritty insights within the Kiwi business and economic circles.
Through her transformative journey from the West Coast to the heights of influence, JJ exemplifies the grit and grace we all could learn from.
In this episode we're not afraid to tackle the tough issues head-on, from the risks lurking within the housing market to the seismic shifts in ideology. We weigh in on the implications of rising interest rates and JJ and I peel back the curtain on the economic conditions being experienced in New Zealand and beyond.
It's an episode that promises not just to inform but to equip listeners with a broader understanding of how to weather the economic storms ahead.
This dialogue isn't about numbers and charts; it's about the very fabric of our society and the political pulse that keeps it alive. We navigate the slightly testy waters of New Zealand's political landscape and the desire for leadership that’s decisive, yet open to healthy debate.
The episode concludes with a heartfelt nod to the power of meaningful conversation and debate and the impact it has on our communities.
Tune in for an episode that's rich with stories all shared over a virtual cup of coffee with two individuals passionate about New Zealand's future.
You can connect with JJ here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
We don't need to wait for them to tell us We've
almost over-empowered thegovernment by telling it that we
need to wait for a directionfrom you before we do business.
That's not the New Zealand Ilove.
The New Zealand I love is abusinessman going.
You know what the governmentwants to do.
That Whatever, fuck it.
I'm going to go over here andI'm going to do this.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
My guest today is Julia Jones, otherwise known as
JJ and JJ.
I, otherwise known as JJ and JJ.
I've always been impressed byyou and in terms of how you seem
to be able to cut acrosscorporate New Zealand in a
really real way and just connectwith people across the spectrum
, regardless of what industriesor seniority they've got.
(00:40):
You just connect with so manypeople and people just
absolutely love who you are.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You know, when something, something's wrong,
look in the mirror.
When something's right, lookout the window.
And I think we've flipped thatnow.
So we go oh, something's wrong,it must be someone else's fault
, and something's right.
And God, I'm amazing, I've justsaved the world.
So we've got these bunch ofheroes running around.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I knew there'd from a range of guests, including
those from the startup world andthose that have had incredibly
interesting lives and somestories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
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Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Julia Jones,otherwise known as JJ, and I've
known JJ for a few years now.
Actually, the point of contactbetween the two of us is a
wonderful woman who runs theDairy Women's Network in New
Zealand, aotearoa, jules Benton.
Big shout out to Jules.
(02:35):
Jules is an epic, epic, human.
Jj, it's so cool to have you onthe podcast today.
I don't know where we'll go,but welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me and we'llgo everywhere.
You know like our usualconversation is 55 conversations
in one anyway, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It is, and there's no scripted questions here, it's
just like let's just see wherethis conversation goes.
Jj, I've always been impressedby you and in terms of how you
seem to be able to cut acrosscorporate New Zealand in a
really real way and just connectwith people across the spectrum
, regardless of what industriesor seniority they've got.
(03:13):
You just connect with so manypeople and people just
absolutely love who you are.
But I'd love to know a littlebit about your early story.
You're a coastie, aren't you?
Aren't you originally from theWest Coast?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, yes, yes, ross, the west coast of the south
island and is that the?
Only real west coast, by theway right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how
you ultimately got to be heretoday.
What did little JJ dream ofbecoming, and who were you?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
my dream was actually ?
Well, I had a couple of dreams.
One of them is sort of slightlyembarrassing, as I wanted to be
the president of the UnitedStates of America and I think
when I was about.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You're still thinking about that Because there's some
options out there.
I'm still considering it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I'm still considering it.
I think there's opportunity.
I might have to wait another 40years because apparently you
have to be like close to death.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
You're way too young Before you can do it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, but I just got this great book and and it was
called the Value Of and it was.
You know, the people used towalk around, knock on doors,
sell books and mum and dadbought it and it was the Value.
I think it was the Value ofRespect and it was about Abraham
Lincoln and I mean, it's apicture book, right, it's not
like I was some great savant ofthe child reading these big
novels, but for that I just waslike I want to be the president.
(04:19):
You know, it wasn't actually.
I literally had that as a goalmy whole way through and I think
it was around and it's going tosound cheesy, but just making a
difference, and I felt likethat was like this big role or I
don't even know if I would havethought of it as a role just
this big opportunity to kind ofmake a difference in the world,
and so that was it.
I wanted to be a fighter pilotas well, but eyes didn't really
take me there and I suspect mybrain and stomach constitution
(04:43):
wouldn't have taken me thereeither, and so, yeah, so look,
growing up in Ross was amazing.
You know, growing up in a ruralcommunity, you are all about
adventure.
You leave the house forbreakfast and you come back for
dinner, and that's when you'refive or six.
You know, and I don't want to.
You know it's not like we're upin the bush going crazy, but
it's.
You know you're out in paddock.
(05:08):
We actually did go into the bushbecause it was a gold mining
town and there was a lot of goldwalkways.
Well, not gold walkways,walkways to the gold mine, not,
not walkways made of gold.
No, no, it wasn't the wizard ofoz, but it was just crazy.
And you know things, simplethings, like you knew not to
touch the tree that had the pinkcircle on it, because that's
where they had cyanide.
They used to do possum, youknow, kill the possums and stuff
around there and I don don'tknow.
It was really cool.
Look, it wasn't a terribleupbringing, like I want to kind
of temper it in the sense thatmum and dad lost properties to
mortgagee sales, like theystruggled quite a bit through
(05:30):
their life and so we moved tolots of different towns.
We lived in Kawaro, we lived inRamadi, we lived lots of
different spots and they reallystruggled, like for them they
immigrated from the UK and togive us kids a better
opportunity and it worked outreally well for us and it
probably was really difficultfor them and so there was a bit
(05:50):
of alcoholism in the family aswell.
But again, we also hadunconditional love and it's a
hard when I talk about it.
The clarity here is.
I'm quite fortunate that theymade us believe we could be
anything we wanted to be.
They didn't necessarily believein themselves and they didn't
believe they were capable ofdoing more, but they absolutely
believed in us kids, that wewere capable of anything, and I
think that's the gold.
(06:10):
But I think also that difficulty, you know, like we would get
food from food banks and wewould, you know.
So we kind of and this is goingto sound terrible, and I mean
it with love, but I thinksometimes I'm just so grateful
for that in the sense that thathard, I know we're not allowed
to say it, but sometimes youjust need to harden up and get
on with shit.
Sometimes things are hard, youknow, sometimes things are
(06:31):
difficult, and I love that that.
My childhood prepared me forlife.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
It's funny because I was chatting to somebody
yesterday and doing a bit of anearly sort of prep for an
interview we'll do in the nextcouple of weeks and she said
exactly the same thing yesterday.
Sometimes we just need toharden up.
Sometimes things in life aretough and the best way to get
through them is to not be awallflower, to be a little bit
(06:55):
more resilient.
So with that kind of childhood,is that why you sort of pushed
yourself or gravitated towardsbanking and finance, because
money was tough and tight andyou wanted to go into a
different type of world whereperhaps money and finance was a
bit more plentiful?
Is that part of a driver, orare they absolutely?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I think and this will sound terrible to people and I
love my parents dearly but Iguess I just didn't want to be
them.
I didn't want to be in thatsituation.
I didn't want to feel thatliving that sense of no hope or
that sense of nothing bigger forme.
And you know, it was probablyaccidental that I ended up in
finance, but I definitely knew Iwanted to do something big and
I definitely knew I wanted to dosomething amazing and at the
(07:40):
time finance was kind of theplace to be.
Literally it was accidental, itwas a series of fortunate
events.
I worked for UDC and, likeaccounts payable, I was terrible
, by the way and then theyrestructured so I ended up in
the back office of the dealingroom at ANZ.
I mean, all of this was justthrough fortunate conversations
and and I was pretty pushy youknow I'd be really confident at
(08:03):
20 with no knowledge and I wasvery immature and quite stupid
and say I want to be the CEO,like that was my thing, I'm
going to be a CEO.
I'm going to be a CEO and Iwould just push and hustle and
learn stuff and get things done.
We went through to ANZ into theback office and I think within
six months.
I was really lucky.
I had an incredible managershe's in Vegas at the moment,
(08:27):
leah and she really believed inme and helped me get into the
front office, into the dealingroom.
So you know, from there thedealing room was really where it
all started and, man, nothinghas ever come close to how fun
it was working in the dealingroom Nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Wasn't that weird.
Like John Key was in thedealing room I think I forget
which bank but clearly it kindof worked out okay for him too.
Why is the dealing room so sogood?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I think it was.
And John Key fascinates me.
I love that man, I absolutely.
You know why he fascinates me?
Because it's pretty hard to getthrough working in a dealing
room without any kind of stains,I guess, and he just never had
any.
So that man had great vision.
He knew he would be PrimeMinister one day.
(09:09):
There's something about thedealing room.
It's the energy, it's theinformation.
You're surrounded bylike-minded people that are all
quite different and, look, wewould have arguments.
You know, if something washappening in the day and there
was a bit of a hustle, bustle,you know the adrenaline would go
or there would be nothinghappening.
And while I'm on the phonethere's people throwing tennis
balls over my head, annoying me.
And it was just I don't want tocall it family because I know
that's dangerous in a work sense, but it was a real.
Maybe it was like a gang, itwas just this great connection.
(09:31):
It was the energy, it was theintelligence, the conversations,
the curiosity.
Everyone was always curious.
We always wondered what wasgoing to come next, and I think
the big thing for me was we werealways excited, no matter how
good or bad the day was.
So there wasn't good or bad, itwas just something was
happening and that was exciting.
Whether or not there was anapocalypse in the economy or a
(09:54):
big hype in the economy, itdidn't matter to us.
It was just an exciting momentto make something happen.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And what were you dealing in?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So I did currency and then went into over time.
They wanted you to kind of dodifferent things, so I did
options as well, and alsointerest rates.
And so I just look and I don'tthink I was a particularly smart
person, but you were surroundedby these incredible humans
who've been there for 20, 30years, who they would impart
their knowledge to you Like.
(10:23):
Sometimes they would do it byyelling at you, but the transfer
of knowledge was huge.
So there's generational shiftin knowledge all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, and how did you go about sort of understanding,
if you like, the economics ofthe world, of foreign exchange,
of interest rates?
Had you studied economics likewhat was your knowledge?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No, I mean, look, I'd done like a certificate in
business, so I'd done a reallybasic bit of study Again, not a
particularly academic person.
I read and I read and I learnedand I listened and I observed
and I watched.
And you know, my first week orso in the dealing room, I think
there was the Asian crisis.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So I think you know I actually think 1997, sort of
about yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Big shout out and big thanks to all the economic
crises that happen around theworld, because that's where I've
learned my best lessons.
But it was the learning and itwas understanding what people
were saying, what was happening.
The clients, you know you'rehaving all these different
stakeholders you talk to.
You've got the dusty old seadogs in the dealing room that
this is their fifth or sixthbloody crisis that they've seen
and they just kind of aretalking you through what may
(11:25):
happen and what it looks likeand how these cycles work and
what will be next.
And then you're talking toclients and then you're reading.
You know you just read.
You're constantly reading andabsorbing information and
observing and you watch anoutcome.
You know you see a currency goup, or you see a currency go
down, or you see the interestrates go up or down or the
equities move, and you just see.
It's almost like watchingeverything in real time.
(11:49):
Well, you are watching it inreal time.
You're watching the worldchange right in front of you
with this data.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It was just so cool and like I know that I'm just
going to go off piste so manytimes in this conversation
because it's just a bunch ofthings you're talking about that
interest me.
So do you now have a real, Iguess, the ability to see those
sort of macro trendseconomically and what's
happening in the economy, and,if so, love to get your views on
(12:14):
that?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I do.
I was really lucky because whenI went and worked at KPMG I
sort of got an opportunity,because when you're in a dealing
room it's very much a here andnow.
So it's what's going to happentomorrow, what's going to happen
, and then I sort of had my lensstretched out to sort of what
happens in 10 years.
So okay, that happens today, sowhat impact will happen in 10
years from that?
So, yeah, it did.
I certainly spend a lot of timethinking about the economy.
(12:42):
I spend probably a lot of not,I guess seeing the obvious or
what I believe is obvious.
I get excited by it.
I still check the currency andsee what's happening and I just
I love seeing that whole flow ofone simple thing like an
interest rate going up and whatthe impact that has through a
whole economy, throughenterprise, you know, through
(13:04):
the individual, the enterprise,and then right the way through
to that macro kind of globalscene, which is probably more my
space now.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I am going to go down the sort of economic
rabbit hole on your views here.
So I was having a conversationwith somebody recently I won't
say who it was because he hasn'tkind of cleared that for me to
talk about him but he is a guy Ireally highly regard.
He is a quantitative, I think,just absolute expert in the
world of financial markets and Iwas talking to him about 12
(13:34):
months ago about buying propertyin New Zealand and his exact
words and I've got the explicitwarning on this podcast was stay
the fuck away from the NewZealand housing market over the
next few years.
And I said so, why is that?
And he explained to me a fewthings.
So one of the things he said isGreg, we in the last sort of 50
years we've probably had sevenor eight really big recessions.
(13:56):
You know, as you mentioned, wehad the Asian financial crisis,
we had the dot-com, we had theGFC, et cetera.
But he said the worst one inthe kind of last 50 years
globally was 81-82.
We had the 1970s.
We had the oil crisis andinflation.
The Fed, federal Reserve andthe US dialed up interest rates
to slow down inflation, but ittook a couple of years for it to
(14:17):
bite, and in 81-82, things werereally grim.
He said the data now looks moregrim than then.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I think the big thing with when we overly invest in
housing is it's actually notproductive.
And I know that sounds awful.
We all need to live somewhereand I think you know so.
There's a social answer to that.
But on the economic side of it,that investment isn't
necessarily productive.
So we're not getting intobusinesses, we're not
necessarily investing in abusiness or investing our
capital for long term.
(14:48):
So we want to kind of get a bumon a seat and get a widget made
today as opposed to prepare ourbusinesses for the long term
tomorrow.
And I think this obsession withhousing it's all capital gains
right.
So we buy a thing with the hopethat it's worth four times that
or five times that or maybe 10x, depending on how long you're
going to have it in the future,and that will be my retirement
(15:11):
or that will be my whatever.
And I think that we've got tobe a little bit careful, because
if that capital gain slows orchanges or that model shifts,
then what's plan B?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, model shifts then what's plan B?
Yeah, so interestingly, I wassaying I was talking to a
mortgage broker on the weekendand I was having a bit of an
argument about the economy andthe housing market with them,
because they were, look, it'sgoing to turn around soon and
the housing prices are going togo back up again, and I said,
look, my view is this.
It's just as simple as this.
I'm in my mid-50s, just turned55.
So my career sort of started inthe late 80s, and in the late
(15:45):
80s and into the early 90s,interest rates in New Zealand
were sort of in the low 20s.
So over the last 30 years let'scall it 1990 to 2020, in those
last 30 years interest rateshave basically tracked down over
a 30-year period.
They've gone from low 20s toyou know whatever the bottom was
months ago, and during thattime housing boomed because
(16:07):
obviously servicing just gotcheaper and cheaper and cheaper
and cheaper and so you could buymore house.
We had housing shows, we hadhousing do-up shows.
Everything was about capitalgains and making money out of
property.
You could make money by buyingsomething and waiting.
It's the only skill you had.
That's changed.
So that 30-year cycle haschanged and now we've seen
(16:27):
interest rates ticking up, andmaybe they might be static, but
they're certainly not going tokeep diving down.
Therefore, what we've come togrow used to in the last 30
years may not be what we get inthe next 30.
Does that make sense?
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
or disagree.
No, no, I totally get it.
Makes sense.
Do you agree with that ordisagree?
No, no, I totally get it.
Like that happened a while ago.
I mean, I used to work at ANZ.
I ended up working in a ruralbanking.
I was a regional manager for arural banking team and Cam
Begory was our chief economistat the time and I love Cam he's
you know he's a straight shooterand he you know he talked a lot
(17:02):
and this was in the ag sectoris gone.
Now it's cash flow and you knowwe've had decades of capital
gains and now it's going to becash flow and I think probably
that housing.
That's same for individuals,right?
I'm not great, like I'mcertainly not the world's best
at managing my own funds and Ithink do we try and live above
our means?
You know New Zealanders spendtill we hurt.
(17:22):
When you talk about that gap,remember in the GFC where New
Zealand was in trouble becausewe had to actually go and borrow
money because we didn't havemany depositors versus the
amount of lending we had in thecountry.
Well, that was because we livedoutside our means and we had to
try and get money from offshoreto fill that gap or that
funding gap the banks used tocall it.
(17:42):
So I think in that householdimpact or effect, if we are
buying a property with the hopethat it is worth more, so then I
can borrow on it, and then Ican put a new kitchen in it, and
then I can put another widgetat the back from it, and then
when I'm retired and again it'snot necessarily working on your
cash flow, it's not necessarilyincreasing your savings or your
(18:05):
investment and that's whereKiwiSave is such a good thing,
because it forces someone likeme, who is probably not the best
at saving, to save.
That's where I love stuff likeSharesies and this is not
investment advice at all, butSharesies where you can buy
shares because it's a differentform of investment.
It puts your money somewhereelse and I don't think we're
good at that diversification.
We kind of worked for granddadand it worked for mum and it
(18:28):
worked for our aunties and itwill work for us and maybe it
will, but maybe it won't.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I think you're so right about KiwiSaver, because
we are terrible at saving inthis country.
We're really really bad.
I was talking to an investmentbanker in Sydney pre-Christmas
and he said that the financialmarket of Australia in total
dollar size is 500 times largerthan New Zealand's.
So Australia is what five orsix times bigger in population
(18:55):
and the reason for that isbecause they've had let's call
it 10% compulsory superannuationon every employee for 40 years.
It's a snowball effect.
So it's really really, reallyinteresting.
You've, in my mind, you'vespent a lot of time in the last
few years really talking aboutthe agricultural economy.
You've obviously got sort ofroots and heritage in the
(19:17):
agricultural economy.
Where do you see New Zealand'sagricultural future going?
Are we in a good place rightnow, or are things pretty
challenging out there?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Look, I'm going to this will be a long answer.
I think that we have greatopportunity that we are missing,
and I think that theopportunity is huge.
So we have got wool, we havegot natural fibres, we have got
meat, which is highly densenutrition.
We've got highly densenutrition with our dairy.
(19:47):
We've got things that peopledesire.
We just haven't necessarily gotparticularly good at packaging
it up and understanding a realbrand around that.
And I was actually just talkingbefore to someone, a guy, tim
Dean Dean, who owns Norswear andhe's ex-banker, ex-corporate
person and you know it's thatbranding.
How do we brand or get a brandwith an agriculture and also,
(20:09):
how do we get out of our own way?
I think one thing that's reallyreally worrying me right now in
New Zealand is we actuallyforget that we are a small
island in the middle of nowhereand if we went away, no one's
really going to mind, and notthat they don't love us or want
us.
They don't need us.
No one needs us.
So we are really busy trying tobe friends with everyone
(20:30):
instead of trying to beimportant to someone, and I
think with our food it's lessthan two percent of the global
food system, so we need toactually be smart of how we
export, smart how we get it intomarket, and that's not about
necessarily getting more in.
That's actually about makingsure that we have connections
and are important.
But at the moment, I feel likewhen we are stuck in this
(20:51):
government rhetoric conversationaround the government's going
to save us, or you know and agin general, we just fight
against each other.
We don't have to worry aboutthe vegans or anyone else that
doesn't like agriculture.
It's actually ourselves that wehave to worry about, and so I
think we are stuck in a bit of acycle because we're looking at
the world from the inside outinstead of going.
(21:13):
What does the world want to seefrom us?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I guess farmers at the moment have got a lot of
headwinds.
So the vegan movement, thesustainability movement, et
cetera, all good things.
They make sense, but farmersare finding it really tough
right now.
Mental health's not great onfarm, et cetera.
How do we turn that mindsetaround to address what you
talked about before, likerethinking how we take up our
(21:36):
opportunity?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and I think it's also rethinking our
language.
I mean, you know there's lobbygroups within farming, right?
So we've got an activist groupand we've got a lobby group
within farming.
And I'm not a psychologist, butI'm pretty sure when you tell
everyone everything's shit andthey feel bad, it doesn't make
them feel better.
So I think when we just focuson what's wrong and we don't
look for some level of solution,then, and we don't look for
(21:58):
some level of solution, thenthat's when we start having
these mental health issues,right.
And I think we've also got tobe careful with that language,
because I think we've toldpeople that you have a bad year.
I mean, I've probably had oneof my worst years in my career
of the last 12 months.
I don't have a mental healthissue, I'm having a really shit
year and you know I'm stillalive, so it's not that bad, you
(22:22):
know.
I think sometimes what we tellpeople is you have to be living
the dream and everything's happy, and you're happy every five
minutes, and that's mentalwellness, and I think.
And then there is mental healthissues.
You know my brother has ADHDand he has clinical depression
and that's mental health issues.
That's a chemical imbalancethat needs medication to support
.
That's quite different fromsomeone having a bad time.
And I think in ag.
I think what we've done iswe've told people that things
are tough and therefore you havea mental health issue.
(22:43):
Everything's terrible, thegovernment hates you.
You know, one of the lobbygroups was running around saying
there was a war on farming.
I mean, what a horrific, dumbthing to say when there are
actually real wars happening inthe world.
So again, I think for farmingas one financially for sheep and
beef farmers is very difficult,so it's very difficult to make
money the way things are set upat the moment.
(23:04):
The environmental thing mostfarmers find really exciting and
love, because if you don't havea good environment you don't
have a good farm and you don'thave product.
So that's just almost a nobrainer for most farmers.
Unfortunately, we've got a fewloud voices in the sector that
seem to get the most of theairtime and make people believe
that farmers don't want to beenvironmental and that's
actually not true.
(23:24):
I'd actually put a number andsay at least 80% are focused on
that and we've quietened theprogressive voices and we've
given too much airtime to peoplewho just want to be noisy.
We've allowed white noise totake over from progressive logic
.
So we've quietened ourwonderful agricultural farmers
who are working hard and justgetting shit done, and we've let
(23:46):
the bleaters, moaners,complainers who think it's
everyone else's fault, thevictims have all the airtime.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, that's so true.
And the reality of farming isthat most farms not all of them,
but a decent chunk areintergenerational and those
farms are their homes and theywant to hand over the farm in a
better state and a bettercondition to the next generation
.
So, whether that's riparianplanting or whatever, they love
(24:13):
their homes, they love the land,they're deeply connected and
they're working hard on that.
And it feels really unjustifiedsome of the criticism around
you naughty, naughty farmers,you know.
Sure, let's keep doing a betterjob and let's keep a focus on
it, but actually these peoplegenuinely, genuinely care about
the environment and the healthof their farms.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, and I think you've also got to be careful in
the sense of what are you?
I think we've got really quickin New Zealand at judging
someone else and not.
You know, I remember years agodoing leadership training and I
got taught you know, whensomething's wrong, look in the
mirror.
When something's right, lookout the window.
And I think we've flipped thatnow.
So we go oh, something's wrong,it must be someone else's fault
, and something's right.
And God, I'm amazing, I've justsaved the world.
So we've got these bunch ofheroes running around, and I
(24:54):
think the reality of it is, youknow, just because you turn the
tap off when you brush yourteeth doesn't mean that you're
saving the planet.
And I think it's an individualresponsibility and let's be
curious and let's understand andlearn before we actually just
get a knife and start stabbingpeople in the face.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I knew there'd be a bunch of wisdom, just sort of
chatting to you and listening toyour stories.
Now you are a keynote speakerand you're a really, really good
keynote speaker.
And actually I saw something onsocial the other day where you
had a dress and that particulardress was the same colour as the
massive screen behind you, soyou kind of disappeared.
I blended yeah, you blended in.
(25:30):
It was just a head and somewaving arms.
How did you get into publicspeaking?
Was that always a you knowsomething that you've done since
you were a kid, or did thatevolve?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's actually quite a funny story.
So when Fonterra were createdback I think that is actually
like 21 years ago or something Imight be 22 now I worked ASB
and they were running what wecalled the Large Herds
Conference.
So this conference and at thetime, fonterra had brought in a
hedging policy, blah, blah, blahboring stuff, but exciting for
me and they were telling farmersif you don't like it, you can
(26:01):
hedge against it.
So they were basically tellingfarmers to take risk.
And I was 25 and I was a littlebit like as Anna Salam, naive
and quite idealistic at times,and I was like why would you
tell people to take risk whenthey shouldn't be taking risks?
This is a currency.
Farmers should be farmers, notcurrency risk people.
Anyway.
So at this event with 500farmers and the Fonterra board
(26:25):
and their CEO, I got up and saidthat they were terrible
communicators and that theybasically shouldn't be talking
like this.
However, I did say that it wasnobody's business what the
hedging policy was, anywhoos.
As a result, I spent about twoweeks.
Anyway, I got a standingovation.
I was Don Brash, had just comeout of being the central bank
governor, was trying to get intopolitics.
(26:45):
He was on the panel.
He asked me a question aroundwhy farmers didn't borrow US
dollars.
I basically answered it.
I said to him, don, did Ianswer your question?
And he said no.
And I got nervous and I said doyou want to take this outside?
So anyway, it was a bit funnyand well slash, stupid.
So anyway, I spent some timewith Fonterra because they
really didn't like me and theywanted me to be fired and blah,
blah, blah, blah and this is nota slight on Fonterra, this is
(27:07):
just a 20-odd-year-old story andthey then, as a result, I got a
chance to travel the countrywith them.
So we kind of got through ouryou know kind of vibe.
I was very lucky ASB was sosupportive.
There's a guy, kerry Francis, Iworked for and you really get
these people in your career, butthis guy had my back man.
He had my back.
You know, the biggest companyin New Zealand was basically
(27:28):
kicking down his door saying wewant her gone, even though I was
just some little baby who careswhat I was saying.
And then from there I went onthe road with them and I was
writing articles and then Itraveled the country talking to
farmers around.
Why do you need to think abouta world economy when you're
growing wool you know down inSouthland or where I go, and so
that was kind of where it allstarted and it just went from
(27:49):
there and it just grew.
So it's not new and I get a lotof people messaging me going I
want to be a keynote speaker andI'm like, well, you actually
have to go and do shit right.
Well, you actually have to goand do shit right, like you
don't just get up and speak, youactually have to experience
something and you have to feelsomething and you have to have
gone through stuff.
And I was just really luckythat I'd gone through these
crazy whirlwind experiences thatput me on the platforms and put
(28:10):
me on the stage and I was ableto write articles and all these
things.
And then I sort of went fromthere to KPMG well, went through
banking, where I didn't do itas much, and then I went to KPMG
and I worked for Ian Proudfoot,who's just a cool dude,
futurist, crazy thinker, and Igot to work with him and got to
(28:31):
do it all again and that's whereI really went from this whole
thing where it was.
This is a 20 year journey to bea keynote speaker.
You know, and I look don't getme wrong I've had training as
well and I've done the basics ofit.
But you've got to havesomething to talk about, you've
got to experience something,you've got to have done
something to speak about.
It's not just about having ablurb and speaking.
You've got to feel, you've gotto know, you've got to
experience.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And even with that experience do you still get
nervous?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Oh, I feel like I'm going to vomit before every
conversation.
I'm convinced everypresentation is going to be the
one that people work out thatI'm not actually that good at it
.
And look, I prepare, I prepare,but I'm also I don't
over-prepare, because you don'twant to be up there and be super
robotic about it, so you haveto have a level of spontaneity
to make sure that you read theroom, that you can be a little
(29:15):
bit agile on stage.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, it's funny because I enjoy public speaking
and one of the things I oftensay to people is yeah, it is
scary, and even people who arereally accomplished public
speakers will feel nervous andscared.
I know in my own personalexperience.
I forget what I'm going to talkabout.
So we're sitting at the frontof the room because you need to
be close to the stage and in afew minutes I can't remember
what I'm going to talk about,but it always seems to come
right.
The reality is, if you aregoing to do some public speaking
and you're thinking about it,it is scary, but lean into that
(29:44):
and just give it a nudge, butjust tell some good stories.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, totally, and be really grateful.
You know, I think every singletime somebody asks me to speak,
I'm incredibly grateful.
I'm really lucky.
I've done a lot of focus and alot of script reading in that,
so I wouldn't say that I'm thebest emcee in the world, but if
you want some energy and a goodlaugh, I am okay.
But yeah, I think the thing istoo is be gracious and be
grateful, because when you'rethere, that's not about you,
(30:10):
it's about that audience andit's about the people who have
got you in to speak and you haveto do the very best by them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, now tell me, how did you end up in Russia 10
years ago?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It was hilarious.
Another crazy, just series offunny events.
So I'm working for Ian Proud,but he's the global head of
agriculture, which he still isfor KPMG, and so every now and
then I'd field a few calls and Ijust started chatting with our
Russian guys and you know you'rejust chatting away and then one
of the calls they were like, oh, would you come up to Russia?
And I was like, yeah, yeah,cool, yep.
And then next week would youcome up to Russia?
(30:40):
Yeah, sure, and we were talkingabout strategy and agriculture
and you know how New Zealandgrew its export and all this At
that time Russia was talkingabout potentially exporting food
and it was quite amusing,anyway.
So, and then they literallywere like, oh, so you're coming
up, and oh, you were serious.
And so I ended up there and itwas just a great experience,
like scary.
It was when I think Russia hadjust gone into Crimea.
(31:03):
So it was the original, one ofthe first well, not one of the
first wars, but one of the firstwars I was aware of.
And so I was meant to go toUkraine but obviously couldn't
go there because I wasn'tinsured for that and just had
this great opportunity to learncompletely.
That was probably the biggestcultural experience I've had, in
(31:27):
the sense of I'm really smileyand outgoing and talk a lot, and
they said that our customerswon't trust you if you smile too
much, you ask too many personalquestions, because I'd ask
about the individuals, want toget to know them, and yeah, it
was just.
But at the same time you learnabout history, you understand
why people are how they are andit's just this different
environment and it was just.
I remember once looking out theKPMG window and there was a
half-finished building and I'mtalking half-finished, like you
(31:49):
know, there was no walls in it,I think it was just kind of
stone.
It would have been maybe 50stories or something crazy like
that, and there was a partygoing on at the top of it, you
know, and all I could think ofwas where's their health and
safety standards?
But it was just this kind ofcrazy environment where just
anything kind of happened.
And we went to visit a guy inhis bank and as we turned up
(32:10):
we're in a cab and Vitaly, who Iwas visiting is hilarious.
He's like Julia, julia, look,look over there.
And this guy pulls up and thetwo armored cars pull up back
and by the front doors, hisarmored guards take him into the
building.
And I'm like you don't see thisin Te Amuru.
But, and he said, and I said,oh, is he?
Because he's rich, they worriedhe's going to get kidnapped.
(32:31):
And he said, no, he'sprotecting himself from the
state and I, and so you know adifferent kind of world.
And we sit in this guy's bankthat he owns and he owns a farm
that was 275,000 hectares ofcropping land and he was buying
the neighbour.
That was the same.
And the scale, you know thescale.
Just, I literally almostcouldn't understand or get my
(32:53):
head around it how it operated.
You know, even when we turnedup that day, I had to give my
passport to the security andbecause I was a foreigner at the
time, there was some sanctionsgoing on.
So there was, they didn't likeforeigners and there was a
chance I wouldn't be allowedinto the building.
We met with some ministers andone minister sat there.
(33:13):
I knew he could understand whatI was saying.
He wouldn't look at me, hewouldn't talk to me and he would
only ever speak in Russian,which is, you know, I was in his
country.
I didn't expect him to speak inEnglish, but there was no just
such a cool environment, it wasjust such a crazy.
And hey, who knows, maybe in mylifetime there'll never be an
opportunity to go back.
So I guess the lesson I got outof that is if a random says to
you do you want to come?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
do this, go, do it Go , do it, yeah, and does it make
you think differently about thewhole Russian-Ukraine situation
now?
Because you've experienced timein Russia, so we have a very
pro-Ukrainian view, which isgreat.
But is there another side tothat that you see, or does it
give you a nuance to thesituation that's going on?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, I think the nuance is that this is and again
, there's never a justificationfor killing innocent people, so
I'm not endorsing any of that.
But this is thousands of yearsright of war and fighting, and I
don't even know how to describeit, and so I don't empathize.
But I kind of get that thisisn't something that we can just
take sides on, because at theend of the day, the innocent
(34:14):
people dying we take their side,regardless of where they are.
But, ultimately, this isthousands of years of disruption
and tit for tat and I justdon't know how that's ever going
to change.
And I don't think us taking aview on it based off our
short-term view or our fluffyview when we live in a very
privileged environment, is goingto support or help that.
(34:37):
One thing was interesting,though, you know during that
time there was a girl fromUkraine working in the office
and she was very upset becauseher parents worked in government
, I think, in Ukraine and sothey were in danger, and the
Russian team were veryunempathetic to that and said
that she was just being dramatic, and so that was a very you
could already see a friction.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Hey, just let me pause you there for a second.
You could already see afriction have to be like that,
though.
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(35:34):
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headaches.
Let's get back to the show.
It's interesting because Ialways say to my kids you know
if they're taking sides on anargument, do you understand both
sides?
You know a judge in a courtroomis not only going to listen to
(35:55):
one side and it doesn't excuseanything that's gone on and
innocent people being harmed.
But it's like Israel andPalestine.
There are stories on both sides, and do you understand deeply
both sides' points of view?
So that's a pretty extreme partof your life to be in Russia,
switching completely and goingto the work of charity in New
(36:16):
Zealand and Meet the Need.
How did you get involved withMeet the Need and tell us a bit
about it?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So Meet the Need was set up by two incredible farmers
, so Siobhan O'Malley and WayneLangford, and their thoughts
were and I think it wasoriginally Wayne's idea and I
think his thought was we produceall this food, how on earth can
we possibly have people whodon't have food?
And it was something like.
His calculation was somethinglike 0.5%.
If everyone, everything weproduce, we just all gave I
(36:41):
think it was either 0.5% of itor 0.5 of that production there
would be enough food foreverybody.
And so what that was is about afarmer donating livestock or
milk and then that getting sentthrough to food banks, and so
it's a supply chain.
They asked me to come on boardbecause I guess I was a bit of a
different thinker and there wasa group there's a big group of
us that came on board and wewere going to wait a year to
(37:03):
launch, but COVID hit and thefood security went through the
floor, and so we were up andrunning within a very short
space of time, thanks to SilverFern Farms, who are a key
partner, who are a cornerstonepartner, who, if it wasn't for
them, we wouldn't be here andyeah.
So it's amazing and it's justlike we need donations and milk
and meat and money, and rightnow it's incredible.
(37:25):
The need is so high.
And this is not about we supplyfood banks and the food banks
are incredibly strong in howthey support people in this
space, and I've grown up on foodbanks right, so this is really
important to me.
What I never want someone to dois feel shame with it.
(37:45):
I used to watch mum cry andfeel terribly ashamed that she
had to go to a food bank.
And now food banks we'regetting into social supermarkets
where there's more of a tokenapproach, where you might pay
$40 and then you get tokens andyou can go and buy or get the
food Rather than just getting aparcel.
That makes you feel like you'regetting a handout.
And it's people any one of usthis can happen to.
I think in New Zealand we get abit stuck sometimes and we think
(38:05):
these are just people thatdidn't work hard enough.
I read online.
One guy was like well, whydon't they?
Just they need to spend lessthan they earn.
Oh, what a great idea.
Thanks, mate, I'll get a pencil.
Good, I'll get a pencil goodadvice, you know, let me tell
the person who has three jobs,who still can't pay their rent,
that they just need to work abit more and maybe save some
money.
And I think we've got a littlebit of a disconnect around
(38:26):
reality, because any one of usat any point could lose
everything and end up needingcharity or needing support and
needing food, and I think themore we can support and it's
only a small thing we do at Meetthe Need but the more meat we
get nutrition too.
You know, this isn't fillers,this isn't chippies and biscuits
, and those are lovely and great, but this is actually getting
(38:48):
dense nutrition into ourfamilies, who are doing it tough
.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
And so big shout out to the founders of Meet the Need
, and that's obviously M-E-A-TMeet the Need.
So check that out, and welldone you for getting involved
with that.
That's sort of a nice seguewhen we talk about the
attitudinal things we have goingon in New Zealand around.
You know, people need to justwork a bit harder.
You and I were chatting offlinebefore we kicked off this
podcast just about the psyche inNew Zealand at the moment.
(39:13):
What's going on?
Something's shifted in ourattitude.
We used to have the numbereight wire.
We lived at the bottom of theSouth Pacific.
I meant to wait a long timebefore the boat arrived with
some new supplies.
So we were really innovativeand we were the can-do and we
conquered Everest and we splitthe atom and we did all these
great things.
But something shifted andthere's a palpable feeling that
(39:35):
I'm struggling to put my fingeron what it is.
What do you make of the NewZealand psyche right now?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I'm confused by it and worried by it.
I think we're waiting forsomeone to save us.
So we're all waiting for.
You know, and it was reallyinteresting before I did some
writing for Business Desk andyou know I wrote around one of
my first articles is around thesilver bullet of the election
and it was funny.
You know, we spent all our timeblaming a government for
something that they'd done andthen, when the new government
come in, everything would bemagical and happy.
(40:01):
And come in, everything wouldbe magical and happy.
And now we're beating thisgovernment up.
And it's sort of the way I lookat it is we are consistently
waiting for someone else to makea decision and do something
good.
We just think someone will saveus.
No one is coming to save us.
Governments enable what we do.
We don't need to wait for themto tell us.
We've almost over-empowered thegovernment by telling it that
(40:23):
we need to wait for a directionfrom you before we do business.
That's not the New Zealand Ilove.
The New Zealand I love was abusinessman going.
You know what the governmentwants to do, that Whatever, fuck
it.
I'm going to go over here andI'm going to do this because
this is what I know and I don'tmean the legal, I mean, as in
doing business, strategy thatmakes a difference and is good
for their business and good forthe economy.
(40:44):
Instead of waiting to getdirections, when the hell do we
need to be given directions Like, let's get brave, let's make
decisions?
You know, we've become reallynasty about leadership.
I mean, who the hell would wantto be the prime minister?
You're just going to get abusedand beaten up, and even in our
corporate environments, you knowour decision makers, our
leaders are they even makingdecisions?
(41:05):
No, you know what we've done.
We've punished them for thewrong decisions and no one makes
any decisions.
We are actually in limbo rightnow and I think it's a really
dangerous place to be.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
You touch on a really good point around being mean to
leaders.
I made a LinkedIn post,probably about 12 months ago now
, when Jacinda Ardern had beenmust have been her the New
Year's Honours and she wasknighted and honoured and I made
a post on LinkedIn.
That was me reallycongratulating her for the work
that she had done.
Now I'm an ex-National Partygeneral manager, so my politics
(41:39):
is centre-right, but I waspraising somebody from the
centre-left and I honestly I gotbeaten up for it.
And I would say to people welive in a democracy and the joy
of a democracy is we can seeeach other's points of view and
we can say when somebody's donesomething we disagree with.
But equally, we can look at thecharacter and go, hey, I like
that, I like who you've become,and so when you know we'd see
(42:02):
all these conspiracies aboutJacinda was this and she was
that, it was just bollocks andwe need to try and hold on to
what makes democracy thrivebecause, honestly, in the world
right now that's under threat.
So you know, we've got to bereally careful.
We protect that by againlooking at both sides of the
aisle, understanding the issue.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, but democracy is about encouraging more
conversation, not shutting itdown.
And I think we've got intothese tribes right, so you can
be centre, right wing and stillbe a huge environmentalist,
correct.
But in our mind we go, oh,there's no way you could be into
the environment because youjust want to make money or do
whatever.
And then the other side of it,an environmentalist, you know, a
hardcore left person could be areally high, wealthy business
(42:47):
person.
Because they and I think whatwe've done is we've shut things
down we are unable to disagreeand if we don't like someone, we
don't like what they're saying,we don't listen, and I think
you know we have lostperspective and we have lost our
curiosity and you said itbefore around understanding both
sides.
We need to understand eventhose we don't like and disagree
(43:08):
with.
We don't have to change ourpoint of view and we've also got
to give people the freedom tochange their minds, because we
get new information given to usevery single day that we didn't
have yesterday.
That is significant, thatshifts our view, and I think
these people who just won'tchange their view because I
don't want to be seen as aflip-flopper, but the reality of
it is what you knew yesterdayis very different to what you
(43:31):
know today.
So here's the freedom to changeyour mind and not beat people
up for that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I completely agree.
It's that sort of identitypolitics.
I mean I'm, you know, I'meconomically conservative, but
I'm green and I'm sociallyliberal and those can coexist.
You know, they don't have tolive in different political
parties.
So yeah, I think it's super,super interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
I mean, back in the day, right, there would have
been parties for the electionnight and people wouldn't have
cared who you were voting for.
I think it's just now, all of asudden, it's you know you're a
heathen if you do this, or it'sjust these things and you know
as a country, regardless of yourviews or beliefs, you should
question yourself.
When we have a previous primeminister that lives basically
(44:14):
with permanent security becausewe thought bad behaviour could
be justified by cause, we have aright to threaten somebody's
life because our cause is worthyand I just think it's just yeah
, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
One of the things I do love about New Zealand
politics which is not that wellknown is that at Christmas time
all of the political partieswill do drinks with one another.
So they'll do Christmas drinksand you'll get an invite to the
Greens drinks, the Labour drinks, the National drinks, and
they're all at each other'sdrinks and they play sport
together in the parliamentarysports teams against other
(44:48):
parliaments.
I think that's pretty rare, soyou know that's something that's
probably not that well known.
Do you think we are braveenough policy-wise in New
Zealand, or are we just tooconservative with our policy?
Could we be braver?
And you know we talk about.
We've got this opportunity forag, for example, and we have
this incredible opportunity todo something different.
We've got a lot of really coolthings going for us.
(45:09):
Could we be braver and makesome really radical policy
shifts on some things?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
yeah, I don't even know if it's about being radical
.
I think it's about beingpractical.
I think the reality of it is wehave a lot of legislation that
locks us into the status quo.
So we go let's be reallyvisionary, let's be progressive.
Oh, sorry, that legislation andthis is across the board, right
, even in financial services,even in agriculture, across the
board in construction we havelegislation that locks us into
(45:35):
the status quo.
So I don't think we have anyagility or flexibility in our
policy and the bravery partwould become creating frameworks
that we have some freedomwithin, because every region's
different, every organisation'sdifferent.
You know, I'll give an RMA as anexample.
I don't know, you know, I'm notan RMA lawyer Was it good or
bad, I don't know, but we didn'treally execute it well and we
(45:57):
didn't actually govern what wewere meant to govern for it and
we didn't have a consequencewhen people breached it.
So, of course, something thatwe don't it's legislation is
just words on a page, or policyis just words on a page if
nobody actually abides by it orholds people to account with it.
But if we had more flexibleframeworks, that gives an
outcome that we want to get andenables people to work within
(46:19):
that framework and that givesthe level of protection, then
that's bravery and policy,whereas at the moment we either
want to sledgehammer to get ridof all of it or we want to
policy up the gazoo.
So there's a policy what colourundies you wear on a Wednesday?
We just haven't got a balance.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I want to close by talking about you.
So you have had an incrediblecareer to date.
There's a lot more career tocome.
I mean, for example, youattended Stanford Uni with an
Emerging Leader Scholarship afew years ago, but, as I
understand it, you are currentlylooking for your next gig and
something that really kind oflights you up.
(46:54):
What do you think is the JJsuperpower?
What is it that you bring?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Stakeholder connection.
I think I'm very good at andmaking shit happen.
So if you've got an idea, I'mnot an ideas girl, so I'm not
going to come up with the nextbig idea, but if you've got an
idea, I'm either A going to pullit apart or B find a way to
make it work.
We'll probably A and B together, to be honest, and also I'm
going to bring a whole lot ofpeople into your tent that you
need to make that function.
(47:20):
So it's really about connectionand stakeholder management, or
engagement is bringing thosestakeholders that you need into
the tent so that you canactually make that work and make
that go faster and make it goharder.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
So if anybody is listening and you want to be
able to get everybody gelling inthat way that JJ has outlined,
you need to get in touch with JJ.
I will make sure there are waysthat people can connect with
you and LinkedIn, etc.
In the show notes to thisepisode.
You are one of these people whoI just.
Every time I sit down and havea conversation with you, I learn
(47:53):
something new.
I get great heart in knowingthat there are people like you
in our community who are just agood person, who has a strong
intellect and a really directand pragmatic way of kind of
cutting across issues andconnecting humans together.
You really are a master at that.
So I just want to thank you foryour time today.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Thank you, I really appreciate that and, look, the
best gift any of us can giveother people is making them be
more awesome and helping them,and I really appreciate this and
I just love chats with you andwe'll continue to chat with you
and annoy you.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Absolutely.
Let's do that today.
Hey, thanks so much, jj.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you,
being able to build highperforming offshore teams for
your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, Greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
money.
We don't need to wait for them to tell us We've
almost over-empowered thegovernment by telling it that we
need to wait for a directionfrom you before we do business.
That's not the New Zealand Ilove.
The New Zealand I love is abusinessman going.
You know what the governmentwants to do.
That Whatever, fuck it.
I'm going to go over here andI'm going to do this.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
My guest today is Julia Jones, otherwise known as
JJ and JJ.
I, otherwise known as JJ and JJ.
I've always been impressed byyou and in terms of how you seem
to be able to cut acrosscorporate New Zealand in a
really real way and just connectwith people across the spectrum
, regardless of what industriesor seniority they've got.
(00:40):
You just connect with so manypeople and people just
absolutely love who you are.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You know, when something, something's wrong,
look in the mirror.
When something's right, lookout the window.
And I think we've flipped thatnow.
So we go oh, something's wrong,it must be someone else's fault
, and something's right.
And God, I'm amazing, I've justsaved the world.
So we've got these bunch ofheroes running around.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I knew there'd from a range of guests, including
those from the startup world andthose that have had incredibly
interesting lives and somestories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
.
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(02:15):
Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Julia Jones,otherwise known as JJ, and I've
known JJ for a few years now.
Actually, the point of contactbetween the two of us is a
wonderful woman who runs theDairy Women's Network in New
Zealand, aotearoa, jules Benton.
Big shout out to Jules.
(02:35):
Jules is an epic, epic, human.
Jj, it's so cool to have you onthe podcast today.
I don't know where we'll go,but welcome.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Thank you.
Thanks for having me and we'llgo everywhere.
You know like our usualconversation is 55 conversations
in one anyway, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
It is, and there's no scripted questions here, it's
just like let's just see wherethis conversation goes.
Jj, I've always been impressedby you and in terms of how you
seem to be able to cut acrosscorporate New Zealand in a
really real way and just connectwith people across the spectrum
, regardless of what industriesor seniority they've got.
(03:13):
You just connect with so manypeople and people just
absolutely love who you are.
But I'd love to know a littlebit about your early story.
You're a coastie, aren't you?
Aren't you originally from theWest Coast?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yes, yes, yes, ross, the west coast of the south
island and is that the?
Only real west coast, by theway right.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
Tell us a little bit about your upbringing and how
you ultimately got to be heretoday.
What did little JJ dream ofbecoming, and who were you?
Speaker 1 (03:37):
my dream was actually ?
Well, I had a couple of dreams.
One of them is sort of slightlyembarrassing, as I wanted to be
the president of the UnitedStates of America and I think
when I was about.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
You're still thinking about that Because there's some
options out there.
I'm still considering it.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
I'm still considering it.
I think there's opportunity.
I might have to wait another 40years because apparently you
have to be like close to death.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
You're way too young Before you can do it.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, but I just got this great book and and it was
called the Value Of and it was.
You know, the people used towalk around, knock on doors,
sell books and mum and dadbought it and it was the Value.
I think it was the Value ofRespect and it was about Abraham
Lincoln and I mean, it's apicture book, right, it's not
like I was some great savant ofthe child reading these big
novels, but for that I just waslike I want to be the president.
(04:19):
You know, it wasn't actually.
I literally had that as a goalmy whole way through and I think
it was around and it's going tosound cheesy, but just making a
difference, and I felt likethat was like this big role or I
don't even know if I would havethought of it as a role just
this big opportunity to kind ofmake a difference in the world,
and so that was it.
I wanted to be a fighter pilotas well, but eyes didn't really
take me there and I suspect mybrain and stomach constitution
(04:43):
wouldn't have taken me thereeither, and so, yeah, so look,
growing up in Ross was amazing.
You know, growing up in a ruralcommunity, you are all about
adventure.
You leave the house forbreakfast and you come back for
dinner, and that's when you'refive or six.
You know, and I don't want to.
You know it's not like we're upin the bush going crazy, but
it's.
You know you're out in paddock.
(05:08):
We actually did go into the bushbecause it was a gold mining
town and there was a lot of goldwalkways.
Well, not gold walkways,walkways to the gold mine, not,
not walkways made of gold.
No, no, it wasn't the wizard ofoz, but it was just crazy.
And you know things, simplethings, like you knew not to
touch the tree that had the pinkcircle on it, because that's
where they had cyanide.
They used to do possum, youknow, kill the possums and stuff
around there and I don don'tknow.
It was really cool.
Look, it wasn't a terribleupbringing, like I want to kind
of temper it in the sense thatmum and dad lost properties to
mortgagee sales, like theystruggled quite a bit through
(05:30):
their life and so we moved tolots of different towns.
We lived in Kawaro, we lived inRamadi, we lived lots of
different spots and they reallystruggled, like for them they
immigrated from the UK and togive us kids a better
opportunity and it worked outreally well for us and it
probably was really difficultfor them and so there was a bit
(05:50):
of alcoholism in the family aswell.
But again, we also hadunconditional love and it's a
hard when I talk about it.
The clarity here is.
I'm quite fortunate that theymade us believe we could be
anything we wanted to be.
They didn't necessarily believein themselves and they didn't
believe they were capable ofdoing more, but they absolutely
believed in us kids, that wewere capable of anything, and I
think that's the gold.
(06:10):
But I think also that difficulty, you know, like we would get
food from food banks and wewould, you know.
So we kind of and this is goingto sound terrible, and I mean
it with love, but I thinksometimes I'm just so grateful
for that in the sense that thathard, I know we're not allowed
to say it, but sometimes youjust need to harden up and get
on with shit.
Sometimes things are hard, youknow, sometimes things are
(06:31):
difficult, and I love that that.
My childhood prepared me forlife.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
It's funny because I was chatting to somebody
yesterday and doing a bit of anearly sort of prep for an
interview we'll do in the nextcouple of weeks and she said
exactly the same thing yesterday.
Sometimes we just need toharden up.
Sometimes things in life aretough and the best way to get
through them is to not be awallflower, to be a little bit
(06:55):
more resilient.
So with that kind of childhood,is that why you sort of pushed
yourself or gravitated towardsbanking and finance, because
money was tough and tight andyou wanted to go into a
different type of world whereperhaps money and finance was a
bit more plentiful?
Is that part of a driver, orare they absolutely?
Speaker 1 (07:18):
I think and this will sound terrible to people and I
love my parents dearly but Iguess I just didn't want to be
them.
I didn't want to be in thatsituation.
I didn't want to feel thatliving that sense of no hope or
that sense of nothing bigger forme.
And you know, it was probablyaccidental that I ended up in
finance, but I definitely knew Iwanted to do something big and
I definitely knew I wanted to dosomething amazing and at the
(07:40):
time finance was kind of theplace to be.
Literally it was accidental, itwas a series of fortunate
events.
I worked for UDC and, likeaccounts payable, I was terrible
, by the way and then theyrestructured so I ended up in
the back office of the dealingroom at ANZ.
I mean, all of this was justthrough fortunate conversations
and and I was pretty pushy youknow I'd be really confident at
(08:03):
20 with no knowledge and I wasvery immature and quite stupid
and say I want to be the CEO,like that was my thing, I'm
going to be a CEO.
I'm going to be a CEO and Iwould just push and hustle and
learn stuff and get things done.
We went through to ANZ into theback office and I think within
six months.
I was really lucky.
I had an incredible managershe's in Vegas at the moment,
(08:27):
leah and she really believed inme and helped me get into the
front office, into the dealingroom.
So you know, from there thedealing room was really where it
all started and, man, nothinghas ever come close to how fun
it was working in the dealingroom Nothing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Wasn't that weird.
Like John Key was in thedealing room I think I forget
which bank but clearly it kindof worked out okay for him too.
Why is the dealing room so sogood?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
I think it was.
And John Key fascinates me.
I love that man, I absolutely.
You know why he fascinates me?
Because it's pretty hard to getthrough working in a dealing
room without any kind of stains,I guess, and he just never had
any.
So that man had great vision.
He knew he would be PrimeMinister one day.
(09:09):
There's something about thedealing room.
It's the energy, it's theinformation.
You're surrounded bylike-minded people that are all
quite different and, look, wewould have arguments.
You know, if something washappening in the day and there
was a bit of a hustle, bustle,you know the adrenaline would go
or there would be nothinghappening.
And while I'm on the phonethere's people throwing tennis
balls over my head, annoying me.
And it was just I don't want tocall it family because I know
that's dangerous in a work sense, but it was a real.
Maybe it was like a gang, itwas just this great connection.
(09:31):
It was the energy, it was theintelligence, the conversations,
the curiosity.
Everyone was always curious.
We always wondered what wasgoing to come next, and I think
the big thing for me was we werealways excited, no matter how
good or bad the day was.
So there wasn't good or bad, itwas just something was
happening and that was exciting.
Whether or not there was anapocalypse in the economy or a
(09:54):
big hype in the economy, itdidn't matter to us.
It was just an exciting momentto make something happen.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
And what were you dealing in?
Speaker 1 (10:02):
So I did currency and then went into over time.
They wanted you to kind of dodifferent things, so I did
options as well, and alsointerest rates.
And so I just look and I don'tthink I was a particularly smart
person, but you were surroundedby these incredible humans
who've been there for 20, 30years, who they would impart
their knowledge to you Like.
(10:23):
Sometimes they would do it byyelling at you, but the transfer
of knowledge was huge.
So there's generational shiftin knowledge all the time.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Yeah, and how did you go about sort of understanding,
if you like, the economics ofthe world, of foreign exchange,
of interest rates?
Had you studied economics likewhat was your knowledge?
Speaker 1 (10:43):
No, I mean, look, I'd done like a certificate in
business, so I'd done a reallybasic bit of study Again, not a
particularly academic person.
I read and I read and I learnedand I listened and I observed
and I watched.
And you know, my first week orso in the dealing room, I think
there was the Asian crisis.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
So I think you know I actually think 1997, sort of
about yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Big shout out and big thanks to all the economic
crises that happen around theworld, because that's where I've
learned my best lessons.
But it was the learning and itwas understanding what people
were saying, what was happening.
The clients, you know you'rehaving all these different
stakeholders you talk to.
You've got the dusty old seadogs in the dealing room that
this is their fifth or sixthbloody crisis that they've seen
and they just kind of aretalking you through what may
(11:25):
happen and what it looks likeand how these cycles work and
what will be next.
And then you're talking toclients and then you're reading.
You know you just read.
You're constantly reading andabsorbing information and
observing and you watch anoutcome.
You know you see a currency goup, or you see a currency go
down, or you see the interestrates go up or down or the
equities move, and you just see.
It's almost like watchingeverything in real time.
(11:49):
Well, you are watching it inreal time.
You're watching the worldchange right in front of you
with this data.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
It was just so cool and like I know that I'm just
going to go off piste so manytimes in this conversation
because it's just a bunch ofthings you're talking about that
interest me.
So do you now have a real, Iguess, the ability to see those
sort of macro trendseconomically and what's
happening in the economy, and,if so, love to get your views on
(12:14):
that?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Yeah, I do.
I was really lucky because whenI went and worked at KPMG I
sort of got an opportunity,because when you're in a dealing
room it's very much a here andnow.
So it's what's going to happentomorrow, what's going to happen
, and then I sort of had my lensstretched out to sort of what
happens in 10 years.
So okay, that happens today, sowhat impact will happen in 10
years from that?
So, yeah, it did.
I certainly spend a lot of timethinking about the economy.
(12:42):
I spend probably a lot of not,I guess seeing the obvious or
what I believe is obvious.
I get excited by it.
I still check the currency andsee what's happening and I just
I love seeing that whole flow ofone simple thing like an
interest rate going up and whatthe impact that has through a
whole economy, throughenterprise, you know, through
(13:04):
the individual, the enterprise,and then right the way through
to that macro kind of globalscene, which is probably more my
space now.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
Yeah, I am going to go down the sort of economic
rabbit hole on your views here.
So I was having a conversationwith somebody recently I won't
say who it was because he hasn'tkind of cleared that for me to
talk about him but he is a guy Ireally highly regard.
He is a quantitative, I think,just absolute expert in the
world of financial markets and Iwas talking to him about 12
(13:34):
months ago about buying propertyin New Zealand and his exact
words and I've got the explicitwarning on this podcast was stay
the fuck away from the NewZealand housing market over the
next few years.
And I said so, why is that?
And he explained to me a fewthings.
So one of the things he said isGreg, we in the last sort of 50
years we've probably had sevenor eight really big recessions.
(13:56):
You know, as you mentioned, wehad the Asian financial crisis,
we had the dot-com, we had theGFC, et cetera.
But he said the worst one inthe kind of last 50 years
globally was 81-82.
We had the 1970s.
We had the oil crisis andinflation.
The Fed, federal Reserve andthe US dialed up interest rates
to slow down inflation, but ittook a couple of years for it to
(14:17):
bite, and in 81-82, things werereally grim.
He said the data now looks moregrim than then.
What do you think?
Speaker 1 (14:28):
I think the big thing with when we overly invest in
housing is it's actually notproductive.
And I know that sounds awful.
We all need to live somewhereand I think you know so.
There's a social answer to that.
But on the economic side of it,that investment isn't
necessarily productive.
So we're not getting intobusinesses, we're not
necessarily investing in abusiness or investing our
capital for long term.
(14:48):
So we want to kind of get a bumon a seat and get a widget made
today as opposed to prepare ourbusinesses for the long term
tomorrow.
And I think this obsession withhousing it's all capital gains
right.
So we buy a thing with the hopethat it's worth four times that
or five times that or maybe 10x, depending on how long you're
going to have it in the future,and that will be my retirement
(15:11):
or that will be my whatever.
And I think that we've got tobe a little bit careful, because
if that capital gain slows orchanges or that model shifts,
then what's plan B?
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Yeah, model shifts then what's plan B?
Yeah, so interestingly, I wassaying I was talking to a
mortgage broker on the weekendand I was having a bit of an
argument about the economy andthe housing market with them,
because they were, look, it'sgoing to turn around soon and
the housing prices are going togo back up again, and I said,
look, my view is this.
It's just as simple as this.
I'm in my mid-50s, just turned55.
So my career sort of started inthe late 80s, and in the late
(15:45):
80s and into the early 90s,interest rates in New Zealand
were sort of in the low 20s.
So over the last 30 years let'scall it 1990 to 2020, in those
last 30 years interest rateshave basically tracked down over
a 30-year period.
They've gone from low 20s toyou know whatever the bottom was
months ago, and during thattime housing boomed because
(16:07):
obviously servicing just gotcheaper and cheaper and cheaper
and cheaper and so you could buymore house.
We had housing shows, we hadhousing do-up shows.
Everything was about capitalgains and making money out of
property.
You could make money by buyingsomething and waiting.
It's the only skill you had.
That's changed.
So that 30-year cycle haschanged and now we've seen
(16:27):
interest rates ticking up, andmaybe they might be static, but
they're certainly not going tokeep diving down.
Therefore, what we've come togrow used to in the last 30
years may not be what we get inthe next 30.
Does that make sense?
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 1 (16:41):
or disagree.
No, no, I totally get it.
Makes sense.
Do you agree with that ordisagree?
No, no, I totally get it.
Like that happened a while ago.
I mean, I used to work at ANZ.
I ended up working in a ruralbanking.
I was a regional manager for arural banking team and Cam
Begory was our chief economistat the time and I love Cam he's
you know he's a straight shooterand he you know he talked a lot
(17:02):
and this was in the ag sectoris gone.
Now it's cash flow and you knowwe've had decades of capital
gains and now it's going to becash flow and I think probably
that housing.
That's same for individuals,right?
I'm not great, like I'mcertainly not the world's best
at managing my own funds and Ithink do we try and live above
our means?
You know New Zealanders spendtill we hurt.
(17:22):
When you talk about that gap,remember in the GFC where New
Zealand was in trouble becausewe had to actually go and borrow
money because we didn't havemany depositors versus the
amount of lending we had in thecountry.
Well, that was because we livedoutside our means and we had to
try and get money from offshoreto fill that gap or that
funding gap the banks used tocall it.
(17:42):
So I think in that householdimpact or effect, if we are
buying a property with the hopethat it is worth more, so then I
can borrow on it, and then Ican put a new kitchen in it, and
then I can put another widgetat the back from it, and then
when I'm retired and again it'snot necessarily working on your
cash flow, it's not necessarilyincreasing your savings or your
(18:05):
investment and that's whereKiwiSave is such a good thing,
because it forces someone likeme, who is probably not the best
at saving, to save.
That's where I love stuff likeSharesies and this is not
investment advice at all, butSharesies where you can buy
shares because it's a differentform of investment.
It puts your money somewhereelse and I don't think we're
good at that diversification.
We kind of worked for granddadand it worked for mum and it
(18:28):
worked for our aunties and itwill work for us and maybe it
will, but maybe it won't.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
I think you're so right about KiwiSaver, because
we are terrible at saving inthis country.
We're really really bad.
I was talking to an investmentbanker in Sydney pre-Christmas
and he said that the financialmarket of Australia in total
dollar size is 500 times largerthan New Zealand's.
So Australia is what five orsix times bigger in population
(18:55):
and the reason for that isbecause they've had let's call
it 10% compulsory superannuationon every employee for 40 years.
It's a snowball effect.
So it's really really, reallyinteresting.
You've, in my mind, you'vespent a lot of time in the last
few years really talking aboutthe agricultural economy.
You've obviously got sort ofroots and heritage in the
(19:17):
agricultural economy.
Where do you see New Zealand'sagricultural future going?
Are we in a good place rightnow, or are things pretty
challenging out there?
Speaker 1 (19:26):
Look, I'm going to this will be a long answer.
I think that we have greatopportunity that we are missing,
and I think that theopportunity is huge.
So we have got wool, we havegot natural fibres, we have got
meat, which is highly densenutrition.
We've got highly densenutrition with our dairy.
(19:47):
We've got things that peopledesire.
We just haven't necessarily gotparticularly good at packaging
it up and understanding a realbrand around that.
And I was actually just talkingbefore to someone, a guy, tim
Dean Dean, who owns Norswear andhe's ex-banker, ex-corporate
person and you know it's thatbranding.
How do we brand or get a brandwith an agriculture and also,
(20:09):
how do we get out of our own way?
I think one thing that's reallyreally worrying me right now in
New Zealand is we actuallyforget that we are a small
island in the middle of nowhereand if we went away, no one's
really going to mind, and notthat they don't love us or want
us.
They don't need us.
No one needs us.
So we are really busy trying tobe friends with everyone
(20:30):
instead of trying to beimportant to someone, and I
think with our food it's lessthan two percent of the global
food system, so we need toactually be smart of how we
export, smart how we get it intomarket, and that's not about
necessarily getting more in.
That's actually about makingsure that we have connections
and are important.
But at the moment, I feel likewhen we are stuck in this
(20:51):
government rhetoric conversationaround the government's going
to save us, or you know and agin general, we just fight
against each other.
We don't have to worry aboutthe vegans or anyone else that
doesn't like agriculture.
It's actually ourselves that wehave to worry about, and so I
think we are stuck in a bit of acycle because we're looking at
the world from the inside outinstead of going.
(21:13):
What does the world want to seefrom us?
Speaker 2 (21:14):
I guess farmers at the moment have got a lot of
headwinds.
So the vegan movement, thesustainability movement, et
cetera, all good things.
They make sense, but farmersare finding it really tough
right now.
Mental health's not great onfarm, et cetera.
How do we turn that mindsetaround to address what you
talked about before, likerethinking how we take up our
(21:36):
opportunity?
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, and I think it's also rethinking our
language.
I mean, you know there's lobbygroups within farming, right?
So we've got an activist groupand we've got a lobby group
within farming.
And I'm not a psychologist, butI'm pretty sure when you tell
everyone everything's shit andthey feel bad, it doesn't make
them feel better.
So I think when we just focuson what's wrong and we don't
look for some level of solution,then, and we don't look for
(21:58):
some level of solution, thenthat's when we start having
these mental health issues,right.
And I think we've also got tobe careful with that language,
because I think we've toldpeople that you have a bad year.
I mean, I've probably had oneof my worst years in my career
of the last 12 months.
I don't have a mental healthissue, I'm having a really shit
year and you know I'm stillalive, so it's not that bad, you
(22:22):
know.
I think sometimes what we tellpeople is you have to be living
the dream and everything's happy, and you're happy every five
minutes, and that's mentalwellness, and I think.
And then there is mental healthissues.
You know my brother has ADHDand he has clinical depression
and that's mental health issues.
That's a chemical imbalancethat needs medication to support
.
That's quite different fromsomeone having a bad time.
And I think in ag.
I think what we've done iswe've told people that things
are tough and therefore you havea mental health issue.
(22:43):
Everything's terrible, thegovernment hates you.
You know, one of the lobbygroups was running around saying
there was a war on farming.
I mean, what a horrific, dumbthing to say when there are
actually real wars happening inthe world.
So again, I think for farmingas one financially for sheep and
beef farmers is very difficult,so it's very difficult to make
money the way things are set upat the moment.
(23:04):
The environmental thing mostfarmers find really exciting and
love, because if you don't havea good environment you don't
have a good farm and you don'thave product.
So that's just almost a nobrainer for most farmers.
Unfortunately, we've got a fewloud voices in the sector that
seem to get the most of theairtime and make people believe
that farmers don't want to beenvironmental and that's
actually not true.
(23:24):
I'd actually put a number andsay at least 80% are focused on
that and we've quietened theprogressive voices and we've
given too much airtime to peoplewho just want to be noisy.
We've allowed white noise totake over from progressive logic
.
So we've quietened ourwonderful agricultural farmers
who are working hard and justgetting shit done, and we've let
(23:46):
the bleaters, moaners,complainers who think it's
everyone else's fault, thevictims have all the airtime.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah, that's so true.
And the reality of farming isthat most farms not all of them,
but a decent chunk areintergenerational and those
farms are their homes and theywant to hand over the farm in a
better state and a bettercondition to the next generation
.
So, whether that's riparianplanting or whatever, they love
(24:13):
their homes, they love the land,they're deeply connected and
they're working hard on that.
And it feels really unjustifiedsome of the criticism around
you naughty, naughty farmers,you know.
Sure, let's keep doing a betterjob and let's keep a focus on
it, but actually these peoplegenuinely, genuinely care about
the environment and the healthof their farms.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Yeah, and I think you've also got to be careful in
the sense of what are you?
I think we've got really quickin New Zealand at judging
someone else and not.
You know, I remember years agodoing leadership training and I
got taught you know, whensomething's wrong, look in the
mirror.
When something's right, lookout the window.
And I think we've flipped thatnow.
So we go oh, something's wrong,it must be someone else's fault
, and something's right.
And God, I'm amazing, I've justsaved the world.
So we've got these bunch ofheroes running around, and I
(24:54):
think the reality of it is, youknow, just because you turn the
tap off when you brush yourteeth doesn't mean that you're
saving the planet.
And I think it's an individualresponsibility and let's be
curious and let's understand andlearn before we actually just
get a knife and start stabbingpeople in the face.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
I knew there'd be a bunch of wisdom, just sort of
chatting to you and listening toyour stories.
Now you are a keynote speakerand you're a really, really good
keynote speaker.
And actually I saw something onsocial the other day where you
had a dress and that particulardress was the same colour as the
massive screen behind you, soyou kind of disappeared.
I blended yeah, you blended in.
(25:30):
It was just a head and somewaving arms.
How did you get into publicspeaking?
Was that always a you knowsomething that you've done since
you were a kid, or did thatevolve?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
It's actually quite a funny story.
So when Fonterra were createdback I think that is actually
like 21 years ago or something Imight be 22 now I worked ASB
and they were running what wecalled the Large Herds
Conference.
So this conference and at thetime, fonterra had brought in a
hedging policy, blah, blah, blahboring stuff, but exciting for
me and they were telling farmersif you don't like it, you can
(26:01):
hedge against it.
So they were basically tellingfarmers to take risk.
And I was 25 and I was a littlebit like as Anna Salam, naive
and quite idealistic at times,and I was like why would you
tell people to take risk whenthey shouldn't be taking risks?
This is a currency.
Farmers should be farmers, notcurrency risk people.
Anyway.
So at this event with 500farmers and the Fonterra board
(26:25):
and their CEO, I got up and saidthat they were terrible
communicators and that theybasically shouldn't be talking
like this.
However, I did say that it wasnobody's business what the
hedging policy was, anywhoos.
As a result, I spent about twoweeks.
Anyway, I got a standingovation.
I was Don Brash, had just comeout of being the central bank
governor, was trying to get intopolitics.
(26:45):
He was on the panel.
He asked me a question aroundwhy farmers didn't borrow US
dollars.
I basically answered it.
I said to him, don, did Ianswer your question?
And he said no.
And I got nervous and I said doyou want to take this outside?
So anyway, it was a bit funnyand well slash, stupid.
So anyway, I spent some timewith Fonterra because they
really didn't like me and theywanted me to be fired and blah,
blah, blah, blah and this is nota slight on Fonterra, this is
(27:07):
just a 20-odd-year-old story andthey then, as a result, I got a
chance to travel the countrywith them.
So we kind of got through ouryou know kind of vibe.
I was very lucky ASB was sosupportive.
There's a guy, kerry Francis, Iworked for and you really get
these people in your career, butthis guy had my back man.
He had my back.
You know, the biggest companyin New Zealand was basically
(27:28):
kicking down his door saying wewant her gone, even though I was
just some little baby who careswhat I was saying.
And then from there I went onthe road with them and I was
writing articles and then Itraveled the country talking to
farmers around.
Why do you need to think abouta world economy when you're
growing wool you know down inSouthland or where I go, and so
that was kind of where it allstarted and it just went from
(27:49):
there and it just grew.
So it's not new and I get a lotof people messaging me going I
want to be a keynote speaker andI'm like, well, you actually
have to go and do shit right.
Well, you actually have to goand do shit right, like you
don't just get up and speak, youactually have to experience
something and you have to feelsomething and you have to have
gone through stuff.
And I was just really luckythat I'd gone through these
crazy whirlwind experiences thatput me on the platforms and put
(28:10):
me on the stage and I was ableto write articles and all these
things.
And then I sort of went fromthere to KPMG well, went through
banking, where I didn't do itas much, and then I went to KPMG
and I worked for Ian Proudfoot,who's just a cool dude,
futurist, crazy thinker, and Igot to work with him and got to
(28:31):
do it all again and that's whereI really went from this whole
thing where it was.
This is a 20 year journey to bea keynote speaker.
You know, and I look don't getme wrong I've had training as
well and I've done the basics ofit.
But you've got to havesomething to talk about, you've
got to experience something,you've got to have done
something to speak about.
It's not just about having ablurb and speaking.
You've got to feel, you've gotto know, you've got to
experience.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And even with that experience do you still get
nervous?
Speaker 1 (28:53):
Oh, I feel like I'm going to vomit before every
conversation.
I'm convinced everypresentation is going to be the
one that people work out thatI'm not actually that good at it
.
And look, I prepare, I prepare,but I'm also I don't
over-prepare, because you don'twant to be up there and be super
robotic about it, so you haveto have a level of spontaneity
to make sure that you read theroom, that you can be a little
(29:15):
bit agile on stage.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Yeah, it's funny because I enjoy public speaking
and one of the things I oftensay to people is yeah, it is
scary, and even people who arereally accomplished public
speakers will feel nervous andscared.
I know in my own personalexperience.
I forget what I'm going to talkabout.
So we're sitting at the frontof the room because you need to
be close to the stage and in afew minutes I can't remember
what I'm going to talk about,but it always seems to come
right.
The reality is, if you aregoing to do some public speaking
and you're thinking about it,it is scary, but lean into that
(29:44):
and just give it a nudge, butjust tell some good stories.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, totally, and be really grateful.
You know, I think every singletime somebody asks me to speak,
I'm incredibly grateful.
I'm really lucky.
I've done a lot of focus and alot of script reading in that,
so I wouldn't say that I'm thebest emcee in the world, but if
you want some energy and a goodlaugh, I am okay.
But yeah, I think the thing istoo is be gracious and be
grateful, because when you'rethere, that's not about you,
(30:10):
it's about that audience andit's about the people who have
got you in to speak and you haveto do the very best by them.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Yeah, now tell me, how did you end up in Russia 10
years ago?
Speaker 1 (30:20):
It was hilarious.
Another crazy, just series offunny events.
So I'm working for Ian Proud,but he's the global head of
agriculture, which he still isfor KPMG, and so every now and
then I'd field a few calls and Ijust started chatting with our
Russian guys and you know you'rejust chatting away and then one
of the calls they were like, oh, would you come up to Russia?
And I was like, yeah, yeah,cool, yep.
And then next week would youcome up to Russia?
(30:40):
Yeah, sure, and we were talkingabout strategy and agriculture
and you know how New Zealandgrew its export and all this At
that time Russia was talkingabout potentially exporting food
and it was quite amusing,anyway.
So, and then they literallywere like, oh, so you're coming
up, and oh, you were serious.
And so I ended up there and itwas just a great experience,
like scary.
It was when I think Russia hadjust gone into Crimea.
(31:03):
So it was the original, one ofthe first well, not one of the
first wars, but one of the firstwars I was aware of.
And so I was meant to go toUkraine but obviously couldn't
go there because I wasn'tinsured for that and just had
this great opportunity to learncompletely.
That was probably the biggestcultural experience I've had, in
(31:27):
the sense of I'm really smileyand outgoing and talk a lot, and
they said that our customerswon't trust you if you smile too
much, you ask too many personalquestions, because I'd ask
about the individuals, want toget to know them, and yeah, it
was just.
But at the same time you learnabout history, you understand
why people are how they are andit's just this different
environment and it was just.
I remember once looking out theKPMG window and there was a
half-finished building and I'mtalking half-finished, like you
(31:49):
know, there was no walls in it,I think it was just kind of
stone.
It would have been maybe 50stories or something crazy like
that, and there was a partygoing on at the top of it, you
know, and all I could think ofwas where's their health and
safety standards?
But it was just this kind ofcrazy environment where just
anything kind of happened.
And we went to visit a guy inhis bank and as we turned up
(32:10):
we're in a cab and Vitaly, who Iwas visiting is hilarious.
He's like Julia, julia, look,look over there.
And this guy pulls up and thetwo armored cars pull up back
and by the front doors, hisarmored guards take him into the
building.
And I'm like you don't see thisin Te Amuru.
But, and he said, and I said,oh, is he?
Because he's rich, they worriedhe's going to get kidnapped.
(32:31):
And he said, no, he'sprotecting himself from the
state and I, and so you know adifferent kind of world.
And we sit in this guy's bankthat he owns and he owns a farm
that was 275,000 hectares ofcropping land and he was buying
the neighbour.
That was the same.
And the scale, you know thescale.
Just, I literally almostcouldn't understand or get my
(32:53):
head around it how it operated.
You know, even when we turnedup that day, I had to give my
passport to the security andbecause I was a foreigner at the
time, there was some sanctionsgoing on.
So there was, they didn't likeforeigners and there was a
chance I wouldn't be allowedinto the building.
We met with some ministers andone minister sat there.
(33:13):
I knew he could understand whatI was saying.
He wouldn't look at me, hewouldn't talk to me and he would
only ever speak in Russian,which is, you know, I was in his
country.
I didn't expect him to speak inEnglish, but there was no just
such a cool environment, it wasjust such a crazy.
And hey, who knows, maybe in mylifetime there'll never be an
opportunity to go back.
So I guess the lesson I got outof that is if a random says to
you do you want to come?
Speaker 2 (33:31):
do this, go, do it Go , do it, yeah, and does it make
you think differently about thewhole Russian-Ukraine situation
now?
Because you've experienced timein Russia, so we have a very
pro-Ukrainian view, which isgreat.
But is there another side tothat that you see, or does it
give you a nuance to thesituation that's going on?
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Yeah, I think the nuance is that this is and again
, there's never a justificationfor killing innocent people, so
I'm not endorsing any of that.
But this is thousands of yearsright of war and fighting, and I
don't even know how to describeit, and so I don't empathize.
But I kind of get that thisisn't something that we can just
take sides on, because at theend of the day, the innocent
(34:14):
people dying we take their side,regardless of where they are.
But, ultimately, this isthousands of years of disruption
and tit for tat and I justdon't know how that's ever going
to change.
And I don't think us taking aview on it based off our
short-term view or our fluffyview when we live in a very
privileged environment, is goingto support or help that.
(34:37):
One thing was interesting,though, you know during that
time there was a girl fromUkraine working in the office
and she was very upset becauseher parents worked in government
, I think, in Ukraine and sothey were in danger, and the
Russian team were veryunempathetic to that and said
that she was just being dramatic, and so that was a very you
could already see a friction.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Hey, just let me pause you there for a second.
You could already see afriction have to be like that,
though.
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(35:34):
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headaches.
Let's get back to the show.
It's interesting because Ialways say to my kids you know
if they're taking sides on anargument, do you understand both
sides?
You know a judge in a courtroomis not only going to listen to
(35:55):
one side and it doesn't excuseanything that's gone on and
innocent people being harmed.
But it's like Israel andPalestine.
There are stories on both sides, and do you understand deeply
both sides' points of view?
So that's a pretty extreme partof your life to be in Russia,
switching completely and goingto the work of charity in New
(36:16):
Zealand and Meet the Need.
How did you get involved withMeet the Need and tell us a bit
about it?
Speaker 1 (36:20):
So Meet the Need was set up by two incredible farmers
, so Siobhan O'Malley and WayneLangford, and their thoughts
were and I think it wasoriginally Wayne's idea and I
think his thought was we produceall this food, how on earth can
we possibly have people whodon't have food?
And it was something like.
His calculation was somethinglike 0.5%.
If everyone, everything weproduce, we just all gave I
(36:41):
think it was either 0.5% of itor 0.5 of that production there
would be enough food foreverybody.
And so what that was is about afarmer donating livestock or
milk and then that getting sentthrough to food banks, and so
it's a supply chain.
They asked me to come on boardbecause I guess I was a bit of a
different thinker and there wasa group there's a big group of
us that came on board and wewere going to wait a year to
(37:03):
launch, but COVID hit and thefood security went through the
floor, and so we were up andrunning within a very short
space of time, thanks to SilverFern Farms, who are a key
partner, who are a cornerstonepartner, who, if it wasn't for
them, we wouldn't be here andyeah.
So it's amazing and it's justlike we need donations and milk
and meat and money, and rightnow it's incredible.
(37:25):
The need is so high.
And this is not about we supplyfood banks and the food banks
are incredibly strong in howthey support people in this
space, and I've grown up on foodbanks right, so this is really
important to me.
What I never want someone to dois feel shame with it.
(37:45):
I used to watch mum cry andfeel terribly ashamed that she
had to go to a food bank.
And now food banks we'regetting into social supermarkets
where there's more of a tokenapproach, where you might pay
$40 and then you get tokens andyou can go and buy or get the
food Rather than just getting aparcel.
That makes you feel like you'regetting a handout.
And it's people any one of usthis can happen to.
I think in New Zealand we get abit stuck sometimes and we think
(38:05):
these are just people thatdidn't work hard enough.
I read online.
One guy was like well, whydon't they?
Just they need to spend lessthan they earn.
Oh, what a great idea.
Thanks, mate, I'll get a pencil.
Good, I'll get a pencil goodadvice, you know, let me tell
the person who has three jobs,who still can't pay their rent,
that they just need to work abit more and maybe save some
money.
And I think we've got a littlebit of a disconnect around
(38:26):
reality, because any one of usat any point could lose
everything and end up needingcharity or needing support and
needing food, and I think themore we can support and it's
only a small thing we do at Meetthe Need but the more meat we
get nutrition too.
You know, this isn't fillers,this isn't chippies and biscuits
, and those are lovely and great, but this is actually getting
(38:48):
dense nutrition into ourfamilies, who are doing it tough
.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
And so big shout out to the founders of Meet the Need
, and that's obviously M-E-A-TMeet the Need.
So check that out, and welldone you for getting involved
with that.
That's sort of a nice seguewhen we talk about the
attitudinal things we have goingon in New Zealand around.
You know, people need to justwork a bit harder.
You and I were chatting offlinebefore we kicked off this
podcast just about the psyche inNew Zealand at the moment.
(39:13):
What's going on?
Something's shifted in ourattitude.
We used to have the numbereight wire.
We lived at the bottom of theSouth Pacific.
I meant to wait a long timebefore the boat arrived with
some new supplies.
So we were really innovativeand we were the can-do and we
conquered Everest and we splitthe atom and we did all these
great things.
But something shifted andthere's a palpable feeling that
(39:35):
I'm struggling to put my fingeron what it is.
What do you make of the NewZealand psyche right now?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I'm confused by it and worried by it.
I think we're waiting forsomeone to save us.
So we're all waiting for.
You know, and it was reallyinteresting before I did some
writing for Business Desk andyou know I wrote around one of
my first articles is around thesilver bullet of the election
and it was funny.
You know, we spent all our timeblaming a government for
something that they'd done andthen, when the new government
come in, everything would bemagical and happy.
(40:01):
And come in, everything wouldbe magical and happy.
And now we're beating thisgovernment up.
And it's sort of the way I lookat it is we are consistently
waiting for someone else to makea decision and do something
good.
We just think someone will saveus.
No one is coming to save us.
Governments enable what we do.
We don't need to wait for themto tell us.
We've almost over-empowered thegovernment by telling it that
(40:23):
we need to wait for a directionfrom you before we do business.
That's not the New Zealand Ilove.
The New Zealand I love was abusinessman going.
You know what the governmentwants to do, that Whatever, fuck
it.
I'm going to go over here andI'm going to do this because
this is what I know and I don'tmean the legal, I mean, as in
doing business, strategy thatmakes a difference and is good
for their business and good forthe economy.
(40:44):
Instead of waiting to getdirections, when the hell do we
need to be given directions Like, let's get brave, let's make
decisions?
You know, we've become reallynasty about leadership.
I mean, who the hell would wantto be the prime minister?
You're just going to get abusedand beaten up, and even in our
corporate environments, you knowour decision makers, our
leaders are they even makingdecisions?
(41:05):
No, you know what we've done.
We've punished them for thewrong decisions and no one makes
any decisions.
We are actually in limbo rightnow and I think it's a really
dangerous place to be.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
You touch on a really good point around being mean to
leaders.
I made a LinkedIn post,probably about 12 months ago now
, when Jacinda Ardern had beenmust have been her the New
Year's Honours and she wasknighted and honoured and I made
a post on LinkedIn.
That was me reallycongratulating her for the work
that she had done.
Now I'm an ex-National Partygeneral manager, so my politics
(41:39):
is centre-right, but I waspraising somebody from the
centre-left and I honestly I gotbeaten up for it.
And I would say to people welive in a democracy and the joy
of a democracy is we can seeeach other's points of view and
we can say when somebody's donesomething we disagree with.
But equally, we can look at thecharacter and go, hey, I like
that, I like who you've become,and so when you know we'd see
(42:02):
all these conspiracies aboutJacinda was this and she was
that, it was just bollocks andwe need to try and hold on to
what makes democracy thrivebecause, honestly, in the world
right now that's under threat.
So you know, we've got to bereally careful.
We protect that by againlooking at both sides of the
aisle, understanding the issue.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Yeah, but democracy is about encouraging more
conversation, not shutting itdown.
And I think we've got intothese tribes right, so you can
be centre, right wing and stillbe a huge environmentalist,
correct.
But in our mind we go, oh,there's no way you could be into
the environment because youjust want to make money or do
whatever.
And then the other side of it,an environmentalist, you know, a
hardcore left person could be areally high, wealthy business
(42:47):
person.
Because they and I think whatwe've done is we've shut things
down we are unable to disagreeand if we don't like someone, we
don't like what they're saying,we don't listen, and I think
you know we have lostperspective and we have lost our
curiosity and you said itbefore around understanding both
sides.
We need to understand eventhose we don't like and disagree
(43:08):
with.
We don't have to change ourpoint of view and we've also got
to give people the freedom tochange their minds, because we
get new information given to usevery single day that we didn't
have yesterday.
That is significant, thatshifts our view, and I think
these people who just won'tchange their view because I
don't want to be seen as aflip-flopper, but the reality of
it is what you knew yesterdayis very different to what you
(43:31):
know today.
So here's the freedom to changeyour mind and not beat people
up for that.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
I completely agree.
It's that sort of identitypolitics.
I mean I'm, you know, I'meconomically conservative, but
I'm green and I'm sociallyliberal and those can coexist.
You know, they don't have tolive in different political
parties.
So yeah, I think it's super,super interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
I mean, back in the day, right, there would have
been parties for the electionnight and people wouldn't have
cared who you were voting for.
I think it's just now, all of asudden, it's you know you're a
heathen if you do this, or it'sjust these things and you know
as a country, regardless of yourviews or beliefs, you should
question yourself.
When we have a previous primeminister that lives basically
(44:14):
with permanent security becausewe thought bad behaviour could
be justified by cause, we have aright to threaten somebody's
life because our cause is worthyand I just think it's just yeah
, it's crazy.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
One of the things I do love about New Zealand
politics which is not that wellknown is that at Christmas time
all of the political partieswill do drinks with one another.
So they'll do Christmas drinksand you'll get an invite to the
Greens drinks, the Labour drinks, the National drinks, and
they're all at each other'sdrinks and they play sport
together in the parliamentarysports teams against other
(44:48):
parliaments.
I think that's pretty rare, soyou know that's something that's
probably not that well known.
Do you think we are braveenough policy-wise in New
Zealand, or are we just tooconservative with our policy?
Could we be braver?
And you know we talk about.
We've got this opportunity forag, for example, and we have
this incredible opportunity todo something different.
We've got a lot of really coolthings going for us.
(45:09):
Could we be braver and makesome really radical policy
shifts on some things?
Speaker 1 (45:14):
yeah, I don't even know if it's about being radical
.
I think it's about beingpractical.
I think the reality of it is wehave a lot of legislation that
locks us into the status quo.
So we go let's be reallyvisionary, let's be progressive.
Oh, sorry, that legislation andthis is across the board, right
, even in financial services,even in agriculture, across the
board in construction we havelegislation that locks us into
(45:35):
the status quo.
So I don't think we have anyagility or flexibility in our
policy and the bravery partwould become creating frameworks
that we have some freedomwithin, because every region's
different, every organisation'sdifferent.
You know, I'll give an RMA as anexample.
I don't know, you know, I'm notan RMA lawyer Was it good or
bad, I don't know, but we didn'treally execute it well and we
(45:57):
didn't actually govern what wewere meant to govern for it and
we didn't have a consequencewhen people breached it.
So, of course, something thatwe don't it's legislation is
just words on a page, or policyis just words on a page if
nobody actually abides by it orholds people to account with it.
But if we had more flexibleframeworks, that gives an
outcome that we want to get andenables people to work within
(46:19):
that framework and that givesthe level of protection, then
that's bravery and policy,whereas at the moment we either
want to sledgehammer to get ridof all of it or we want to
policy up the gazoo.
So there's a policy what colourundies you wear on a Wednesday?
We just haven't got a balance.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I want to close by talking about you.
So you have had an incrediblecareer to date.
There's a lot more career tocome.
I mean, for example, youattended Stanford Uni with an
Emerging Leader Scholarship afew years ago, but, as I
understand it, you are currentlylooking for your next gig and
something that really kind oflights you up.
(46:54):
What do you think is the JJsuperpower?
What is it that you bring?
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Stakeholder connection.
I think I'm very good at andmaking shit happen.
So if you've got an idea, I'mnot an ideas girl, so I'm not
going to come up with the nextbig idea, but if you've got an
idea, I'm either A going to pullit apart or B find a way to
make it work.
We'll probably A and B together, to be honest, and also I'm
going to bring a whole lot ofpeople into your tent that you
need to make that function.
(47:20):
So it's really about connectionand stakeholder management, or
engagement is bringing thosestakeholders that you need into
the tent so that you canactually make that work and make
that go faster and make it goharder.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
So if anybody is listening and you want to be
able to get everybody gelling inthat way that JJ has outlined,
you need to get in touch with JJ.
I will make sure there are waysthat people can connect with
you and LinkedIn, etc.
In the show notes to thisepisode.
You are one of these people whoI just.
Every time I sit down and havea conversation with you, I learn
(47:53):
something new.
I get great heart in knowingthat there are people like you
in our community who are just agood person, who has a strong
intellect and a really directand pragmatic way of kind of
cutting across issues andconnecting humans together.
You really are a master at that.
So I just want to thank you foryour time today.
Speaker 1 (48:16):
Thank you, I really appreciate that and, look, the
best gift any of us can giveother people is making them be
more awesome and helping them,and I really appreciate this and
I just love chats with you andwe'll continue to chat with you
and annoy you.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
Absolutely.
Let's do that today.
Hey, thanks so much, jj.
Hey, don't forget to check outDeskwork, the team behind you,
being able to build highperforming offshore teams for
your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, Greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
money.
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