May 23, 2024 • 48 mins
When Michael Wood, the entrepreneurial force behind Translucent and ReceiptBank (Dext), sits down to chat, you're guaranteed a treasure trove of insights that go beyond the usual startup success story.
As we navigate Michael's voyage from the uncharted waters of early B2B SaaS business terrain to the heights of a multi-hundred million dollar sale, his candour is as refreshing as it is enlightening.
His reflections on the motivations fuelling his drive shed light on the personal challenges that often accompany the entrepreneurial journey. Michael's backstory, influenced by his mother's conservative take on job security, makes his leap into entrepreneurship all the more compelling.
But this conversation isn't confined to past victories; Michael leads us through the emotional labyrinth of founding a company, from the adrenaline rush of overcoming the brink of bankruptcy to the nuanced struggle of expanding across international borders.
The story of ReceiptBank's metamorphosis from a postal-based service to a digital lifesaver for accountants is a masterclass in adaptation and innovation. And with Translucent's inception sparked by the need for seamless multi-entity management, Michael proves that the entrepreneurial itch doesn't simply fade with success—it evolves.
Away from spreadsheets and investor meetings, Michaels shares how he recharges with adventures that rival his business conquests. From sailing the Atlantic to cycling the rugged terrains from Melbourne to Sydney, his pursuits speak to the resilience and relentless spirit that define a true founder.
You can connect with Michael here and be sure to check out both ReceiptBank and Translucent.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Building a B2B SaaS business in out of Wellington or
out of London anywhere outsideof the Valley before 2013 is a
bit like inventing thetelevision in a Stone Age
society.
You didn't have the tools, youdidn't have anything.
And it's true, there were somany problems we had and
problems we had to solve andthings we didn't know because
there wasn't a playbook.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So it was much, much scrappier know, because there
wasn't a playbook, so it wasmuch, much scrappier.
Michael is the founder and CEOof Translucent and formerly was
the co-founder of Receipt Bank,which sold successfully for a
multi hundred million dollarfigure.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It wasn't about getting rich.
It was literally just aboutthat.
I would like to go on holidayor, if I'm sick, not know that.
Oh, frankly, I'm not earning,and that puts pressure on paying
rent at the end of the month.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
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Now back to the show.
My guest today is Michael Wood.
Michael is the founder and CEOof Translucent and formerly was
the co-founder of Receipt Bank,which sold successfully about
(02:16):
three years ago now, I think fora multi-hundred million dollar
figure.
Michael is a seasoned.
He might not like that becauseit makes him seem old, but he's
not that old, I am old.
He's a seasoned founder, michael, welcome to the podcast, thank
you.
Thank you, very lovely to behere.
It's super cool, super supercool to have you.
You and I have known each otherfor a number of years around
(02:37):
the Xero ecosystem and I can'tremember when that was.
That was probably a good decadeago, when Xero was starting to
rise up.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I think it would be about 2013, maybe 14, something
like that.
We probably first knew eachother.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, in early days If I was to bet on it, I'd say
13.
I'd say 13 as well, and you andSophie from Receipt Bank were
down in New Zealand andAustralia, kind of touting the
Receipt Bank product, kind oftouting the Receipt Bank product
.
But I'd love to sort of startwhere I often do when I'm
talking to founders and juststart really with your personal
origin story before we get on tothe companies that you founded.
(03:11):
So were you always one of theselike inquisitive kids that was
ultimately destined to be anentrepreneur?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It's a great question .
Probably yes, probably yes, butit wasn't obvious for a long
time.
I grew up with a single motherand my mother's outlook was
definitely a very conservativeone, so the idea of
entrepreneurship or working foranything other than a very
(03:42):
established company wassomething that was very scary
for her, and so the upbringingthat was definitely I was
exposed to through her wasdefinitely one of job security
and stability and things likethat.
But to your question, yes, Ithink, actually my natural
(04:02):
character.
I can talk about how it camethrough and when it came through
, but it probably always wouldhave come through eventually and
it was probably that morecurious based and maybe a bit
more of an independent streak.
So you just thrilled your mumand said I want to be an
(04:26):
entrepreneur.
That must have freaked her out.
She was incredibly unhappyabout it and you know, receipt
bank was my third company and Iwas doing sort of receipt bank
effectively sort of through my30s and even then, with every
stepping stone we went throughwith that where this other
valuation of the companyincreased, her initial response
response was always can you sellit?
Can you just bank that money?
Can you get out?
(04:47):
You know, because she just sawit inherently as this very risky
thing and was like you knowwell, if it's worth anything,
please just sell it today sothat you can buy a house and be
financially secure.
So it's probably worth sayingso.
I'm going through that journeyof receiving bank Bank.
Although it was a veryfinancially successful journey
in the end, it was quitestressful to go through because
(05:10):
I didn't own a house, I didn'town a car, I had plenty of debt.
You know, you often see thattechnology entrepreneurs on one
hand they have this paper wealth, but actually their real wealth
, if we can call it that, isnegligible.
And that was definitely myjourney and that stressed her a
lot and you had some companies.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
As you said, your receipt bank was your third
company and I saw, doing someresearch for this, that there
was one company where it almostmade you bankrupt, yes and so.
So what was the motivation tostart those original businesses
then?
If you came from a mum that wasso conservative, what was the
driver?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
so I think there was two key things that happened.
One I was.
I moved to London afteruniversity.
I moved in with a friend and Iconsider myself incredibly lucky
to have spent time with thisfriend because he came from a
very so, whereas my parents wereall about, you know, join a
graduate scheme, get trainingwith a big company, he came from
(06:08):
a very different place.
He came from a very sort oficonoclastic have no respect for
these big companies, you know.
So he was very focused on hewanted to do his own thing, he
wanted to his own business andhe was like Michael, why do you
talk about, you know, whetherit's Tesco or British Airways or
whatever other sort of augustBritish name we could mention.
(06:31):
He was like Michael, you know,why do you possibly want to work
for any of these big companies?
There's nothing, there'snothing interesting.
And it was definitely a sort ofa year or so of living with him
and sort of hearing that verydifferent messaging.
That then the messaging I'vebeen brought up with and it was
very challenging but I thinkvery good for me, you know, to
(06:53):
get that other exposure.
And then, of course, onesimultaneously was I graduated
in 98, so I was coming to London, basically as the dot-com boom
came to the boil.
So the other thing that washappening was, of course, my
parents messaging lookedincorrect and his messaging
looked more in keeping with thetimes, as you know.
(07:17):
Obviously, we can talk about thelikes of Amazon, but then there
was, you know, this multitudeof companies, and every major
company looked like it was beingthreatened by someone else.
And that doesn't just mean dotcoms, because of course, in the
UK we had EasyJet taking on BA,maybe a little before Virgin
Blue taking on Qantas, but youknow, sort of you know there was
(07:39):
, there was a huge amount ofdisruption going on that hadn't
been seen in the previous 10, 20years, maybe even longer, and
so I'd say those two things werethe really key thing of just
that friend's influence, ofbeing in my ear, of no, no,
michael, there's another way.
And then seeing the internetboom and, frankly, jumping on it
(08:01):
and saying that's, I want mycareer over there in that more
disruptive, innovative, excitingworld so it was that for
something like, it was thatalmost in the genesis.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
For something like uh , was it Coco Jambo?
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So I worked a strategy consultant and it
became really obvious to me thatat the time computer games were
still very much seen as a toy.
But it was really obvious thatcomputer games were also a media
.
And of course that's justtotally understood now that
games are a form of media likebooks, film etc.
That's normal to say that.
(08:38):
But at the time.
And of course you see inmagazines and newspapers you get
reviews etc.
But back in 98, 99, 2000 thatwas not the you had.
Computer games were reviewed incomputer game magazines that
were sold to teenage boys.
But what I recognized then thatgames were a medium and if
they're a medium they could holdadvertising.
And so my first business wasaround being an innovator in
(08:58):
bringing advertising into videogames.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And that wasn't ultimately a success.
But no doubt taught you a fewthings video games, and that
wasn't ultimately a success, butno doubt taught you a few
things.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, we learned a few things.
It actually wasn't a successbecause a very major client went
bankrupt so we were stuck witha very large bill.
So maybe the key lesson aboutit is a very expensive but a
very normal business lesson thatunfortunately many, many people
learn and it has nothing to dowith the Internet or technology
(09:32):
or anything and it is just aboutexposure creditor or debtor
exposure.
But I think there were otherlessons in there.
I think we were too early tothe technology lessons in there.
I think we were too early tothe technology.
I think I didn't know enoughthen about how solutions
technology solutions andinternet solutions have to be
scalable.
The approach we were doing wasfar too bespoke, reflecting my
(09:55):
consulting background and thingslike that.
So I think there were amultitude of lessons.
But the thing that took us downand, as you say, almost
bankrupted me and left scars foryears and years and years what
was not being paid, and it tookme 10 years plus before I could
open my post like a normalperson, because you go through
(10:19):
those months where every phonecall is someone shouting at you,
every letter is a demand and so, yeah, for years later, people
would come to my house andthere'd be a pile of letters
there Michael, why aren't youopening your post?
And it was just something thatrequired psychological space,
(10:40):
emotional space, to sort of dealwith the pile of letters.
So, of course, by then theletters were just a standard,
you know, utility bill or aflyer, you know, as it's past,
any letter being related to CocoJambo.
But again, many, many people,I'm no way alone, I've only gone
through it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
When you go through something like this, it is very
difficult and yet, with that andwith that backdrop, you
ultimately then go and co-foundReceipt Bank.
Was that part of the motivationin starting Receipt Bank?
I'm going to do this again andI'm going to make it work this
(11:11):
time and I'm going to have money.
Was any part of the motivationthat?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, it wasn't quite that.
So what I meant is Coco Jumbowent down.
What was really unexpected andreally lovely was the phone
started ringing.
So at the time it might havebeen something like I don't know
28, something like that.
And the phone started ringingbecause what people that knew me
(11:39):
sort of through business were,oh well, you've now run a
business at 28.
Where, oh well, you've now runa business at 28.
You know, you've got a wholereally interesting set of
experiences and a reallyinteresting set of energy and a
really interesting set of skillsand we'd love you to help us
with our businesses.
And that was completelyunexpected.
And I often say to people now,you know, if they ever talk
(12:01):
about starting their ownbusiness, I say always do it,
because you will get rewarded insome way, even if the business
isn't successful, you'll earn,you'll create a new skill set or
something.
It's funny how you get the Rand the ROI from investing in a
business, because it isn'talways the business is
successful, but I do believe bychanneling your energies that
way, value is created.
(12:23):
And the phone started ringing.
So I became basically afreelance marketing director for
a number of clients and I didthat for several years and that
sort of got me back on my feet.
You know, sort of the personalbalance sheet went from negative
to positive.
But after doing that for two orthree years I was very, very
conscious that I was helpingbuild other people's businesses
(12:44):
and the key motivation doingReceipt Bank was I want to do a
product business.
I want to do a business thatwould.
The way I talk about is I wantto make money wisely.
I don't want to be just sellingmy time and, of course, the key
thing for everyone who'slistening to this sells their
time.
They know that every time yougo on holiday for a week, you
don't earn for a week.
It wasn't about getting rich,it was literally just about that
(13:05):
.
I would like to be able to goon holiday or, if I'm sick, not
know that, oh, frankly, I'm notearning and that puts pressure
on paying rent at the end of themonth.
So the thinking was I want to doa product business so I make
money wisely.
That was it, and I'd helped tobuild a accountancy practice.
That is one of the things I'vebeen virtual marketing director
for.
So I got to know I'd helped tobuild accountancy practice.
That is one of the things I'dbeen virtual marketing director
(13:28):
for.
So I got to know the accountingworld fairly well.
And the other thing was I'dbecome a very, very, very early
user of cloud accounting.
So I was one of the very fewpeople in the world in 2007,
total serendipitously not out ofof my curiosity, just that, my
accountant having to put me onit but I'd become one of the
first people in the world to usecloud accounting.
(13:49):
So, you know, when it came to2010, which is when we started
Receipt Bank, I had two thingsthere was pure serendipity.
One was I got to know howaccountancy practices worked and
and I was a veteran client, athree-year experienced client of
cloud accounting and that wasexactly it, because often the
(14:10):
question is asked of founders.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
you know how much of a role does timing play in the
success of a venture and whatyou're essentially saying?
There is a lot.
You were somewhat in the rightplace at the right time not to
take away any of the work thatwas involved, but you timed your
entry onto that wave well,timing is everything and so is
luck.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So a question I like to ask is what was your luck?
Because everyone gets luck andtiming is everything, and you
can actually trace back thecombination of luck and timing
to businesses.
If we take Facebook, forexample, obviously an
unbelievable success, but theyweren't the first social network
(14:56):
.
They know that.
But what do you need for asocial network to break out?
You need broadband and you needdigital cameras, because before
that, a social network ispeople typing it's never going
to break out.
You need broadband and you needdigital cameras, because before
that, a social network ispeople typing it's never going
to break out, whereas when youshare photos, where did facebook
start?
It started in harvard universityin I can't remember, 2005,
(15:16):
whatever.
Why is that interesting?
People always talk about thedot, edu and the status,
definitely a key part of it.
But what else did universitieshave?
They had broadband.
Households did not universallyhave broadband then.
So universities were thenatural place to start because
you had broadband and digitalcameras had got to high
(15:39):
penetration by then.
So you couldn't launch a socialnetwork successfully to break
out in 2000 because broadbandand digital cameras weren't in
the place.
And if you tried to launch it in2012,.
Well, you're going to be toolate because Facebook's already
the dominant social network and,frankly, for every single
business every business you canlook around and trace what are
(16:00):
the precedents that had to be inplace for your business to be
successful?
So many people, of courselistening to this will be very,
very familiar with Xero and I'vespent quite a lot of time
thinking about cloud accountingand its place around the world,
and I don't want to takeanything again away from Rod and
the team.
In the same way, I wouldn'ttake away from the incredible
(16:22):
achievements of Mark Zuckerbergand the team.
But what's really interestingabout New Zealand is New Zealand
had BankLink, so New Zealandaccountants were already
familiar and were alreadyaccepting of the bank feed being
part of their offering and partof their product and, frankly,
(16:43):
part of their processes, whichwas unique around the world,
didn't happen anywhere else inthe world.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And a big shout out to Malcolm McDonald from
BankLink, who was the guy whowas the CEO and founder of
BankLink, you know was really anearly pioneer in the space.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Absolutely.
So you know that didn't mean itwas inevitable that a cloud
accounting behemoth would comeout of New Zealand.
You know we've got to givecredit to Craig, to Amish and to
Rod and the team, because youknow they did so many phenomenal
things but they had, let's callit fertile ground with BankLink
(17:18):
being there and so, yes, so Ithink timing's important and
sometimes luck's important, andfor me it was being put on cloud
accounting, and the other thingthat happened that was
phenomenal for a seat bank wasthe iPhone.
You know that was not on theapp store.
The business we set out in 2010was not predicated on everyone
(17:42):
having a camera in their pocketand the ability to capture
receipts, so that completelysupercharged the business that
we set out to build.
So that would be another keypiece of luck I believe we had.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so, when you started Receipt Bank, what was
the original sort of problemthat you were looking to solve?
You know, this is 2010,.
Early on, what were you lookingto try and do?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
It started as a postal-based service.
It was, you know we were sayingto accountants look, you cannot
make cloud accounting a successif you are only going to get the
accounts payable and expensesat the end of the year or the
end of the quarter when VAT orBAS is due.
You need to get a more steadyflow, a more steady let's call
(18:28):
it feed, of those expenses anddocuments.
So we will create a processwhereby an envelope is sent out
to a client once a month.
They can stuff everything inand send it in and you're now in
a place where you can domanagement accounts and other
advisory services on a morefrequent basis because you have
all the data, whereas if youwait for the clients to do the
(18:52):
shoebox, the carrier bag, at theend of the quarter, at the end
of the year, frankly cloudaccounting is going to be a bit
of a damp squib because youcan't do anything.
The advice you can give, theservices you can sell are going
to be limited, and so we startedout with a monthly postal
service.
And then obviously, we thoughtemail in was interesting, we
(19:14):
thought mobile in you know wewere launching these other
things, but the core submissionmethod, as we called it to begin
with was post.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And so you then build this business, you and your
co-founder, alexis, and youbuild this out over what?
10, 11 years, no doubt goingthrough multiple rounds.
I know you did a series C, Ithink in 2020, which was pretty
sizable, sort of you know, 55odd million pounds, I think it
was.
Did you sort of follow thetraditional SaaS B2B playbook?
(19:45):
You know, you do, we get a few,a couple of co-founders, and
then we, you know, do a littleangel round and then we do a
seed, and then we do an A and aB and a C.
Is that how you built thebusiness out, or was it a bit
more scrappier than that?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, the thing I would say that's quite funny and
I've talked to quite a fewpeople in Silicon Valley about
this and they're verycomplimentary about what Xero
achieved and what we achievedand others outside of Silicon
Valley achieved, because whatyou refer to now as the B2B
playbook completely exists, butit only really came into
existence probably around 2013,2014.
(20:20):
Some key articles were writtenaround 2011, 2012, but it
absolutely did not exist in 2010, 2011, 2012 in any meaningful
way.
And, as one very prominentinvestor said, building a B2B
SaaS business in out ofWellington or out of London
anywhere outside of the valleybefore 2013, is a bit like
(20:43):
inventing the television in astone age society.
You didn't have the tools, youdidn't have anything and it's
true, there were so manyproblems we had and problems we
had to solve and things wedidn't know because there wasn't
a playbook.
So it was much, much scrappier.
And one of the things that wasreally notable, at least for the
London ecosystem, was that wehad to build the businesses and
(21:06):
it wasn't just Receipt Bounceeveryone building B2B SaaS
businesses in London.
Then we had to build thebusinesses and it wasn't just
receipt bags everyone buildingb2b SaaS businesses in London.
Then you had to hire grads.
You had to build the businesson graduates because, unlike in
Silicon Valley, it wasn't like,oh, we can pluck our UX designer
from Facebook or a productowner from Expedia or all these
different job roles that hadveterans in them.
(21:29):
They just didn't exist inLondon and they wouldn't exist
in Auckland or Wellay or inSydney and Melbourne.
So instead you had to hiregraduates and sort of shape them
into the roles you required,and that would be a sort of
major way.
That was very different.
But no, no, it's much, muchscrappier, and even scrappier
doesn't quite tell the realstory.
It was much more groping aroundin the dark of how do you do
(21:54):
this?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And so over that decade, if it was indeed groping
around in the dark and it waspretty scrappy, what was the
toughest part of the wholejourney?
No doubt there were lots ofmoments where it was really,
really tough Looking back.
What was the hardest part?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
The toughest part was definitely the first two years.
So, the first two years,although we were in hindsight, I
don't think we could have gotthe timing any better, starting
in August 2010.
It did not feel like that in2010, 2011, 2012.
(22:31):
So, if we think I might get thenumbers slightly wrong, xero
had something like 10,000subscribers in 2010.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That sounds about right.
Yeah, I mean, it kicked off in2007 with a listing, and so
three years later and they weretripling every year, I would say
that's about right, let's callit that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, it might be 20,000 or something, but still
relatively small.
Yeah, uk, one called free agent, one called cash flow, let's
say between then they hadanother 10,000.
We are talking a market that istiny.
I think Gary Turner, who builtthe Xero business in EMEA, he
(23:18):
recently remembered to me thatin 2011, there were less than 30
apps connected to the Xero API.
So that's useful just to talkhow small the market was.
So, though we were growing in2011, we were growing in 2012.
Growing meant growing a tinybusiness, and I remember it was
(23:41):
a conversation with wayneschmidt that made me realize no
way, schmidt was the countrycountry head for australia at
that point?
yeah but this stage he'd movedto be head of bookkeeping in
australia because chris ridd wasin situ.
But he mentioned to me therewere these things called zero
roadshows in australia and itmade me realize how much more
(24:05):
developed the australian marketwas than UK.
And I remember going to ourboard, which was just three or
four of us at the time, butsaying we need to open an
Australian office.
And to point out how weird Isounded.
We are a UK company, I think atthe time our monthly revenue
(24:29):
was £3,000.
And I'm going and saying we nowneed to become an international
business and open an office onthe other side of the world.
And I was right.
We did it.
It was the right thing to do.
But those kind of conversationswere not easy.
It was what are you talkingabout, Michael?
(24:51):
So of course you can thinkabout international expansion
once you've got a dominantbusiness in the UK.
There was a lot of things likethat that at the time you look
and sound pretty odd, butactually you're doing things now
that make sense.
An international B2B SaaSbusiness is quite obvious.
(25:11):
Oh, you position your businesswherever the global market is
most mature and the greatestdemand is, and things like that.
But you know, we were much morein our national silos back then
than we are now.
So there was definitely thatcouple of years where, in some
ways, by many measures, thebusiness looked like it was
(25:32):
failing.
It looked like it was failing,we had very little revenue, the
market size was tiny and you hadto be very concentrated on the
fact is, we were growing everyweek.
So our weekly growth rate wasgood, albeit from a small base,
and cloud accounting was goingto be huge.
(25:55):
So if you focused on those twothings, you took a set of
actions and decisions, it wouldlead one way.
But, of course, if you had yourmindset in a previous mindset,
which is well, you expand offyour own balance sheet when you
have the profits to invest inthe business, you think about
international expansion whenyou're in a dominant position in
(26:17):
your current markets, et cetera, et cetera, you know you needed
to learn a very differentplaybook or invent, as it was, a
very different playbook thanhad.
So those first two years werereally tough.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
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headaches.
Let's get back to the show.
Yeah, and what about the flipside?
What was the best moment inthat receipt bank and what
became known as dext experience?
Was it getting the check?
The end, I mean was and thereward, or was it an award that
you got it somewhere like whatwas the best moment?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
a really, really lovely moment was I'm going to
struggle to get the right year,but that year that we went to
those australia roadshows theywere in feb and we won add-on of
the year at zero con australiathat year.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
I think I partied with you after that.
From memory, I think I mighthave.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, it was in Sydney.
It was at the Crown, I think,in Sydney, and I think it would
have been 14.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And that just felt an incredible achievement to come
to Australia and open thisAustralian office.
We felt very much like thenewcomers.
We felt very much like theoutsiders and to have succeeded
and helped so many businessesand got that, that was a very,
(28:24):
very emotionally sort ofresonant moment for all of us to
have achieved that, becausethat was the work that went into
that.
You know, trying to bridge twohemispheres you know, sophie,
alexis and I for a year or ayear plus, you know it really
was you're doing whicheverhemisphere you're in, you're
(28:45):
doing your day job and, ofcourse, you're then working past
midnight or up at 5am to doclient calls, to do management
calls, whatever it is for theother hemisphere.
That was hugely rewarding.
And then the other bit wasbefore I sold the business in
2017, we did the Series B andthat was the first time that I
(29:09):
was able to take sort of realmoney out of the business and
was able to buy a house, andthat would have been the other
bit.
That would have been the bitwhere it was.
Frankly, building the businesswas very, very, very stressful
and scary because you're puttingall your energy in something.
It feels very big.
(29:31):
But my personal circumstance,as I say, was I had nothing, and
to be able to take enough moneyout and be able to buy a house
and suddenly be able to feel, ohgod, you know, by that time you
know I'm 40 and it's like I wasterrified will I have the
energy to go again?
You know, if this blows up,will I have the energy to do
(29:52):
this again?
Or am I going to be in my 40swith no assets to my name and
not have the energy to do allthis again, or maybe not the
confidence of a blow up to do itall again?
So I think it would.
Would be that it would bebuying the house and translating
that hard work and that successinto something tangible that is
(30:14):
, oh my God.
I feel, of course, sorry aswell.
This isn't Australia, you knowno super, no pension, no,
nothing to be.
Oh, in some way I'm in a saferplace.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story, because I
think there will be a bunch offounders that can really
resonate with that, so I thinkthat's fantastic.
So then, rolling forward, youultimately exit out of Receipt
Bank or Dext, and you then takesome time, presumably, and then
you start Translucent.
Tell me about why and theorigin story there.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So the why is a great question.
People do say to me Michael,are you an idiot?
You don't need to do it allagain.
Why do it all again?
And I guess some days I do feellike an idiot and then other
days I'm incredibly excited, butmost of the time I'm incredibly
excited.
It actually came from the issuewe saw at Receipt Bank.
So let's call 2015, 2016.
(31:08):
By that stage, we are eightentities around the world.
We have a business in NewZealand, we have a business in
Australia, south Africa, america, bulgaria, france, uk.
So we have these offices aroundthe world.
We have these entities aroundthe world.
Mainly, we're on zero and we'remanaging multiple entities
around the and obviously Xero isnot designed for that.
(31:30):
You know Xero great software.
We love it.
I still love it, but it's notdesigned to be multi-entity
software, and so we spent Ispoke to quite a lot of other
founders that were tackling thesame problem at the time.
It's like, well, what are youdoing?
What are you doing were buyinga sort of set of different
(31:54):
add-ons, as they were called atthe time, but now apps?
You know you're.
We are hitting issues with thenumber of invoices that Xero
could do.
Of course, you're hittingissues with group reporting,
consolidation.
You're hitting all sorts ofdifferent issues intercompany
transfers, all these kind ofdifferent things and so everyone
is sort of buying differentapps.
You're doing your own sort ofsoftware.
You're doing a whole lot ofExcel and manual process.
Frankly, you're sort of hackingeverything you can to try and
(32:16):
make it work.
We sort of kept the show on theroad for about two years of
running all this sort ofmulti-entity setup, but frankly,
it's a huge amount of work andit is a hack.
You know the best will in theworld.
Xero is not designed to do that, nor is any other SMB
accounting software.
They're designed to befantastic single-entity
softwares.
(32:36):
And so in the end the new CFOcame in and said you know, guys,
you're going to have to move toNetSuite.
And I wasn't intimatelyinvolved in the migration to
NetSuite, but it was afascinating project to watch,
both as an internal manager andas a board member, because of
course the proposal comes toboard that is oh yeah, it's
going to take this many months,it's going to cost this much
(32:58):
more and oh yeah, you as abusiness get no benefits
whatsoever.
Now of course, I'm beingslightly flippant.
The benefit is we can'tcontinue running the existing
system.
The finance team is creaking,they're going to break.
We need to make this move toNetSuite.
But is creaking, they're goingto break.
You know we need to make thismove to NetSuite but there were
no other benefits.
No, by the way, there's anawful lot of extra cost because
(33:20):
with SMB software like Xero, thedata, the finance data, is
easily available to anyone elsein the business, and when we
move to NetSuite it's availableto no one.
So we're going to have to spinup a data warehouse and our data
team as well to make that dataavailable.
Oh, the apps and add-ons thatwork with Xero are not the same
ecosystem that work in NetSuite.
So we're going to rip out wholeother workflows and processes.
(33:41):
We're going to do all thesemigrations as well.
So I was like, oh wow, this is areally sort of interesting
project.
So for many years I said topeople there's a really
(34:01):
interesting business there inwhat I call the zero net suite
gap of people don't want toleave zero.
There's nothing wrong with zeroor each of the per entity or
intra-entity workflows, butthere is the need for a piece of
software that orchestrates orlinks or sits as a platform on
top of Xero for multi-entitybusinesses, and so for many
years I'd say to founders oh, ifyou want a really big business,
(34:22):
that opportunity exists.
And then, after we sold ReceiptBank, dext and I'd been out for
a year or two, I thought youknow, that opportunity is so big
, I'm going to do it myself.
And that's what translucent is.
Translucent is there are many,many businesses out there that
are trying to run multi-entityzero.
They have no interest or desireto leave zero, but they do not
(34:45):
need something like NetSuite.
You know, some businesses do,but a fraction of these
businesses do.
We're often talking things likeproperty companies, where each
property is a zero entity.
Or we might be talking a chainof three restaurants or
something.
They don't need NetSuite and,frankly, if you tried to sell
NetSuite to them, they'dunderstandably take fright.
So we think there's a verylarge number of businesses that
(35:08):
need something that sits on topof zero.
But the old thing, what we didat Receipt Bank doesn't make
sense either.
The old sort of 2015 solutionof oh, you need an app stack,
you need 10 different apps justto make zero multi-entity work.
Well, that makes no senseeither.
Why should your team have tolearn a different ux and pay a
(35:30):
different amount, an extraamount, for every single
workflow and, of course, yourdata and your security and your
permissions and everything areall over the place.
It's like, yeah, that madesense to hack in 2015, but it
doesn't now.
So what we're doing atTranslucent is we're saying, if
you're a multi-entity businessin one piece of software, we
will make sure we cater to everyworkflow.
(35:52):
You need group reporting,consolidation, intercompany bank
consolidation, linking the datawith excel or google sheets,
search, etc.
Etc.
So there's a large number ofapps we need to build.
We're building them one by one,but that's what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
A translation and for those that are listening who
are from the accounting worldand, given my background, a lot
of people that listen to thesepodcasts are you need to check
out Translucent and I will makesure that there's ways to link
to you and to Translucent in theshow notes for the episode.
So, when it comes to building abusiness like this, you've done
the startup thing a few times.
(36:30):
Now this is a little bitdifferent.
You're doing this on your ownas the founder and CEO, and
you've got all the experience ofthe last 20-odd years of doing
startups.
How do you approach thingsdifferently with Translucent?
That may be when you startedthis.
You're like you know what.
I'm just going to do this alittle bit differently.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah.
So there's no question, whenyou've had a successful exit,
like Receipt Bank was, you arein a very fortunate position.
And you're in a very fortunateposition, I think, in three ways
.
One is you've got a set ofexperiences that help you.
Second is you have a sort ofpersonal balance sheet.
That means you know you have abit more control of the
company's financial destiny.
(37:10):
And thirdly, you've got a trackrecord that other investors are
keen to invest in.
So you are in a very fortunateposition.
That sometimes means the adviceyou give isn't that useful
because you are in that slightlydifferent position.
What it's meant for me is Ihave built a very different
company this time.
I'm a big believer in aperson's energy is really,
(37:33):
really key, and I'm not quitegoing to go mystical on this but
I do you can.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You can if you want.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
That works for me it's not really my character guy
, but I do believe we've all gota certain amount of energy and
one of the big decisions in lifeis where you choose to put it.
And you know some people wantto put it 100 into their kids
and having, you know, a bigfamily.
Other people choose to put intoa business.
Other people choose to put itinto, you know, becoming a
olympian or things like that.
(38:00):
But the one thing I do believeis that sort of energy is finite
and you've got to be a littlecareful about where you put it.
And I also think and this mightget certain people's backs up I
think when you're you have moreof it than when you're older,
and so one of the things I've.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
definitely it's harder to get those batteries
recharged, isn't it?
When you're older it is.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And there's no question.
At Receipt Bank, you know I wasdoing absolutely everything.
You know setting up our salesforce writing the emails for
marketing.
You know being on the phone forsales and I sales force writing
the emails for marketing.
You know being on the phone forsales and I'd love to have that
energy, but I don't know.
So there is more.
We are a bigger organization atthis stage of our revenue than
(38:42):
we were at receipt bank becauseI have more people around me
sort of acknowledging that.
I think I need that because Ihave I don't have the energy.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Hopefully I've got a wiser head, hopefully I've got
more experience, but I don'thave quite as much energy and I
was having a conversation withsomebody on the podcast here the
other day about sometimesactually having the time to
reflect and therefore make abetter decision, and the old
sort of principle of measuretwice cut once that by actually
(39:12):
having more people around you totake some of the grind away and
the urgent stuff away, for youto have space to go for a walk,
to go for a run, to get out intoa park and to think, then
you're actually possibly goingto make a much better decision
that creates a lever for thefuture success of the business.
(39:33):
Do you think that's true?
So actually, it's not inputsbased, it's outputs based.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I think there comes a time.
That's definitely true.
I'm not there yet.
I'm still very sort of runningon the treadmill.
There's no question, though, myrole at Receipt Bank got to
there, and I became very, veryeffective due to that.
So, again, I might slightlybutcher the anecdote, but I know
sort of Warren Buffett sort ofsays he spends sort of 80% of
(40:00):
his time reading, and I was veryfortunate and I got a time at
Receive Upquake where the mostof my time could be spent
speaking to people and reading.
So, whether it was speakingwith competitors, speaking with
customers, speaking withpartners like Xero, speaking to
VCs and reading and there is noquestion that can become a
(40:24):
superpower.
If you can get a business largeenough where you can afford
that to be your role, I think itis an unbelievable superpower.
I've experienced it in the past.
I can't wait to get back thereBecause, as you say, you can
make a small number of very,very powerful decisions, as
(40:44):
opposed to running around and,frankly, making a very high
number of very small decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And what is your superpower?
I mean, obviously, you can talkabout getting to the state in
the business where you've gotmore time to be able to make
better decisions, which is initself, a superpower.
What about for you personally?
Just the personality that youbring, the skill set that you
have?
What is that?
Where are you in your and Ihate using this phrase your zone
of genius?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
and I hate using this phrase you're a zoner genius,
so I think I'm very good atlet's call that sort of medium
timeframe of seeing where anindustry will go.
So am I the guy who knows whattech will look like in 20 years?
No, I don't know enough aboutchip architecture and things
(41:32):
like that.
Do I get distracted by what anindustry will look like in six
months or 12 months?
No, but I'm very good at thatsort of three to five year.
This is where the puck is going, this is how things are going
to look and this is where mybusiness needs to get to, and I
can advise other people wheretheir businesses need to get to,
(41:54):
and that I think I'm very, verygood at and speaking of
advising other businesses onwhere they can go, because that
is quite a superpower to havethat sort of three to five year
mid-term clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Do you get involved with other founders and, whether
it's through angel investing orjust advising people over
coffee, do you do much of that?
Have you got time and space?
Speaker 1 (42:16):
for that.
I've done a little bit.
I do less now that sort oftranslucent is so full time.
But yeah, I sit on a couple ofboards.
I've made angel investments inthe past.
Again, I do less of it.
I don't think I'm very good atit.
We'll see in five years time ifmy cohort does well.
You know, I think I've got acouple of winners in there, but
definitely quite a few thatdidn't work out.
(42:38):
But no, for some of them Idefinitely sort of spend the
time and yeah, I definitely sortof have coffees.
You know I'm proud.
There's quite a few people inthe zero ecosystem over the last
sort of 10 years that I've beenable to help and assist and
give advice to.
So yeah, I tried to do that,but definitely with Translucent
being so full on.
The time is not, is a bit morelimited now.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And a common trait in well, not just founders but in
humanity, is this impostersyndrome, and you've had a
really successful exit.
You've done you know what whatthree or four startups now but
do you still ever have doubts orfeel the imposter syndrome
element or are you kind of pastthat now?
Speaker 1 (43:21):
so the answer I'd give to that, greg, is I'm a big
believer in only the paranoidsurvive I love that phrase.
So I'm constantly checking ourplans, rechecking them.
What are we doing?
Have we got this right?
You know, and even in you know,translucent's been going now
for, let's say, meaningfully, 18months.
(43:42):
We're still very young, verynew.
Already.
In that time we've made acouple of pretty big mistakes
that we've had to correct andthings like that.
We've got some fantastic thingsright as well, but you've
always got to be looking andre-looking.
Only the paranoid survive.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And how do you recharge and refill the, as you
say, the finite resource, thatis, your own energy?
How do you go about doing that?
Do you read and get inspired,do you run or walk, or do you
spend time with family?
What's your way of kind ofgetting away so that you can?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
recharge.
I think I'm really bad at it.
I think thanks for being honest,that's good.
I think they would say I'mpretty bad at it as well.
I would love to find ways toget better at it.
The one thing that I've found Ifound it last summer that's
really worked for me is spendingtime in and on the water, and
basically I've always spent timein and on the water, but I
(44:40):
suddenly realized last summerthat that does work for me, and
whether it's because of course,you can't be checking your phone
, whether you're kayaking orI've got really into flight
boarding, which is when you'vegot one of these e-foils, that
sort of on the water or swimmingor anything, I find that helps.
But I slightly worry that that'salmost a false one, in that it
(45:02):
works because I can't check myphone or I can't.
You know you have to be.
You know if you're a kayak orif you're doing something so
active you can't think about thebusiness, and I wish I had an
ability to be a bit more mindfuland just be able to sit on the
sofa and not let myself getdistracted.
So I was actually at a dinnerparty on Saturday night and I
(45:23):
was chatting to one friend abouttranslucent and another friend.
She literally sort of shoutedat me from across the table of
Michael.
Stop it, it's Saturday nightjust no, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
you know she was probably rightand then what did you say?
Only the paranoid survive thatwouldn't have gone down well
with her, to be fair to her.
(45:44):
She said you've got 15 minutesand then you've got to stop.
So I was like, okay, fine,we'll finish our conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I love that.
I love that your friends lookout for you and and I'll talk to
you offline about the e-foil,because I'm kind of intrigued by
that.
One final question for youbefore we let you get on with
your day, because you're in acompletely different hemisphere
to me.
What is something that very fewpeople would know about you?
Your family know about it andthose close to you know maybe it
(46:09):
was the e-foiling, but what'ssomething that very few people
know about?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Michael Wood, I don't think of myself as a
particularly private person, butI do know that self-awareness
isn't maybe that correct.
I remember some people inreceipt banks sort of saying
that you know they knew certainthings but sort of not other
things.
There's sort of things I'vedone that are sort of I maybe
don't talk like I've sailed theAtlantic and things like that.
There's's certain things I'vedone that I don't always talk
(46:34):
about in a work content andthere's two or three things I've
done like that that are quiteinteresting.
I've cycled from Melbourne toSydney and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Those are big things, michael.
Those are big things.
I've just casually dropped thatin that I've sailed across the
Atlantic and I've ridden a bikefrom Melbourne to Sydney, which
for anybody who doesn't knowthat is a long way.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Is it 2000k or 2000?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
miles.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it'd be something I quite like things
that have an A to B.
So if you said to me oh Michael, do you want to go and cycle
2000k?
I'd be like oh my God.
No, that sounds awful.
But if you give a narrative toit, like going from A to B or
the sailing was from Portugal toAmerica, so it felt very sort
of Columbus.
Like you know, if you givesomething as a narrative to it,
(47:19):
my mind really attaches to it.
So I quite like things likethat.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Michael, it is.
It's always a real pleasureseeing you and I always prefer
when we're doing that over awine or a meal.
In this case we're doing itwith some podcast microphones
but honestly, talking to you, Ifeel personally, I feel really,
really inspired, and I knowthere'll be people listening who
also feel like that.
I want to thank you for beingopen and candid about the
(47:46):
journey and that you've been on,because lots of people again
will resonate with that.
As I said, I'll put ways forpeople to connect with both
yourself and Translucent on theshow notes, your LinkedIn
profile, etc.
Just want to thank you for thetime you've given today.
It's been a real honour to chatto you.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Not at all, thank you .
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with me.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team
behind you, being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
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It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
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Building a B2B SaaS business in out of Wellington or
out of London anywhere outsideof the Valley before 2013 is a
bit like inventing thetelevision in a Stone Age
society.
You didn't have the tools, youdidn't have anything.
And it's true, there were somany problems we had and
problems we had to solve andthings we didn't know because
there wasn't a playbook.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
So it was much, much scrappier know, because there
wasn't a playbook, so it wasmuch, much scrappier.
Michael is the founder and CEOof Translucent and formerly was
the co-founder of Receipt Bank,which sold successfully for a
multi hundred million dollarfigure.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
It wasn't about getting rich.
It was literally just aboutthat.
I would like to go on holidayor, if I'm sick, not know that.
Oh, frankly, I'm not earning,and that puts pressure on paying
rent at the end of the month.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:11):
.
I want to tell you a little bitabout desk work.
Desk work is your offshoringoption.
If you want to save around 50%of your total headcount cost for
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Honestly, if I was looking tostart an accounting firm again,
(01:35):
it would be a no-brainer for meto use Deskwork.
I've used offshoring teamsbefore in the past.
I got past my skepticism onbeing able to do it and it was
so phenomenally successful.
Go have a look at desk-workcobackslash, greg, and book
yourself a free discovery callto learn more about it.
(01:55):
Better still, mention my nameand get yourself some discounts.
Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Michael Wood.
Michael is the founder and CEOof Translucent and formerly was
the co-founder of Receipt Bank,which sold successfully about
(02:16):
three years ago now, I think fora multi-hundred million dollar
figure.
Michael is a seasoned.
He might not like that becauseit makes him seem old, but he's
not that old, I am old.
He's a seasoned founder, michael, welcome to the podcast, thank
you.
Thank you, very lovely to behere.
It's super cool, super supercool to have you.
You and I have known each otherfor a number of years around
(02:37):
the Xero ecosystem and I can'tremember when that was.
That was probably a good decadeago, when Xero was starting to
rise up.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I think it would be about 2013, maybe 14, something
like that.
We probably first knew eachother.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Yeah, in early days If I was to bet on it, I'd say
13.
I'd say 13 as well, and you andSophie from Receipt Bank were
down in New Zealand andAustralia, kind of touting the
Receipt Bank product, kind oftouting the Receipt Bank product
.
But I'd love to sort of startwhere I often do when I'm
talking to founders and juststart really with your personal
origin story before we get on tothe companies that you founded.
(03:11):
So were you always one of theselike inquisitive kids that was
ultimately destined to be anentrepreneur?
Speaker 1 (03:18):
It's a great question .
Probably yes, probably yes, butit wasn't obvious for a long
time.
I grew up with a single motherand my mother's outlook was
definitely a very conservativeone, so the idea of
entrepreneurship or working foranything other than a very
(03:42):
established company wassomething that was very scary
for her, and so the upbringingthat was definitely I was
exposed to through her wasdefinitely one of job security
and stability and things likethat.
But to your question, yes, Ithink, actually my natural
(04:02):
character.
I can talk about how it camethrough and when it came through
, but it probably always wouldhave come through eventually and
it was probably that morecurious based and maybe a bit
more of an independent streak.
So you just thrilled your mumand said I want to be an
(04:26):
entrepreneur.
That must have freaked her out.
She was incredibly unhappyabout it and you know, receipt
bank was my third company and Iwas doing sort of receipt bank
effectively sort of through my30s and even then, with every
stepping stone we went throughwith that where this other
valuation of the companyincreased, her initial response
response was always can you sellit?
Can you just bank that money?
Can you get out?
(04:47):
You know, because she just sawit inherently as this very risky
thing and was like you knowwell, if it's worth anything,
please just sell it today sothat you can buy a house and be
financially secure.
So it's probably worth sayingso.
I'm going through that journeyof receiving bank Bank.
Although it was a veryfinancially successful journey
in the end, it was quitestressful to go through because
(05:10):
I didn't own a house, I didn'town a car, I had plenty of debt.
You know, you often see thattechnology entrepreneurs on one
hand they have this paper wealth, but actually their real wealth
, if we can call it that, isnegligible.
And that was definitely myjourney and that stressed her a
lot and you had some companies.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
As you said, your receipt bank was your third
company and I saw, doing someresearch for this, that there
was one company where it almostmade you bankrupt, yes and so.
So what was the motivation tostart those original businesses
then?
If you came from a mum that wasso conservative, what was the
driver?
Speaker 1 (05:45):
so I think there was two key things that happened.
One I was.
I moved to London afteruniversity.
I moved in with a friend and Iconsider myself incredibly lucky
to have spent time with thisfriend because he came from a
very so, whereas my parents wereall about, you know, join a
graduate scheme, get trainingwith a big company, he came from
(06:08):
a very different place.
He came from a very sort oficonoclastic have no respect for
these big companies, you know.
So he was very focused on hewanted to do his own thing, he
wanted to his own business andhe was like Michael, why do you
talk about, you know, whetherit's Tesco or British Airways or
whatever other sort of augustBritish name we could mention.
(06:31):
He was like Michael, you know,why do you possibly want to work
for any of these big companies?
There's nothing, there'snothing interesting.
And it was definitely a sort ofa year or so of living with him
and sort of hearing that verydifferent messaging.
That then the messaging I'vebeen brought up with and it was
very challenging but I thinkvery good for me, you know, to
(06:53):
get that other exposure.
And then, of course, onesimultaneously was I graduated
in 98, so I was coming to London, basically as the dot-com boom
came to the boil.
So the other thing that washappening was, of course, my
parents messaging lookedincorrect and his messaging
looked more in keeping with thetimes, as you know.
(07:17):
Obviously, we can talk about thelikes of Amazon, but then there
was, you know, this multitudeof companies, and every major
company looked like it was beingthreatened by someone else.
And that doesn't just mean dotcoms, because of course, in the
UK we had EasyJet taking on BA,maybe a little before Virgin
Blue taking on Qantas, but youknow, sort of you know there was
(07:39):
, there was a huge amount ofdisruption going on that hadn't
been seen in the previous 10, 20years, maybe even longer, and
so I'd say those two things werethe really key thing of just
that friend's influence, ofbeing in my ear, of no, no,
michael, there's another way.
And then seeing the internetboom and, frankly, jumping on it
(08:01):
and saying that's, I want mycareer over there in that more
disruptive, innovative, excitingworld so it was that for
something like, it was thatalmost in the genesis.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
For something like uh , was it Coco Jambo?
Exactly.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So I worked a strategy consultant and it
became really obvious to me thatat the time computer games were
still very much seen as a toy.
But it was really obvious thatcomputer games were also a media
.
And of course that's justtotally understood now that
games are a form of media likebooks, film etc.
That's normal to say that.
(08:38):
But at the time.
And of course you see inmagazines and newspapers you get
reviews etc.
But back in 98, 99, 2000 thatwas not the you had.
Computer games were reviewed incomputer game magazines that
were sold to teenage boys.
But what I recognized then thatgames were a medium and if
they're a medium they could holdadvertising.
And so my first business wasaround being an innovator in
(08:58):
bringing advertising into videogames.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
And that wasn't ultimately a success.
But no doubt taught you a fewthings video games, and that
wasn't ultimately a success, butno doubt taught you a few
things.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, we learned a few things.
It actually wasn't a successbecause a very major client went
bankrupt so we were stuck witha very large bill.
So maybe the key lesson aboutit is a very expensive but a
very normal business lesson thatunfortunately many, many people
learn and it has nothing to dowith the Internet or technology
(09:32):
or anything and it is just aboutexposure creditor or debtor
exposure.
But I think there were otherlessons in there.
I think we were too early tothe technology lessons in there.
I think we were too early tothe technology.
I think I didn't know enoughthen about how solutions
technology solutions andinternet solutions have to be
scalable.
The approach we were doing wasfar too bespoke, reflecting my
(09:55):
consulting background and thingslike that.
So I think there were amultitude of lessons.
But the thing that took us downand, as you say, almost
bankrupted me and left scars foryears and years and years what
was not being paid, and it tookme 10 years plus before I could
open my post like a normalperson, because you go through
(10:19):
those months where every phonecall is someone shouting at you,
every letter is a demand and so, yeah, for years later, people
would come to my house andthere'd be a pile of letters
there Michael, why aren't youopening your post?
And it was just something thatrequired psychological space,
(10:40):
emotional space, to sort of dealwith the pile of letters.
So, of course, by then theletters were just a standard,
you know, utility bill or aflyer, you know, as it's past,
any letter being related to CocoJambo.
But again, many, many people,I'm no way alone, I've only gone
through it.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
When you go through something like this, it is very
difficult and yet, with that andwith that backdrop, you
ultimately then go and co-foundReceipt Bank.
Was that part of the motivationin starting Receipt Bank?
I'm going to do this again andI'm going to make it work this
(11:11):
time and I'm going to have money.
Was any part of the motivationthat?
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Yeah, it wasn't quite that.
So what I meant is Coco Jumbowent down.
What was really unexpected andreally lovely was the phone
started ringing.
So at the time it might havebeen something like I don't know
28, something like that.
And the phone started ringingbecause what people that knew me
(11:39):
sort of through business were,oh well, you've now run a
business at 28.
Where, oh well, you've now runa business at 28.
You know, you've got a wholereally interesting set of
experiences and a reallyinteresting set of energy and a
really interesting set of skillsand we'd love you to help us
with our businesses.
And that was completelyunexpected.
And I often say to people now,you know, if they ever talk
(12:01):
about starting their ownbusiness, I say always do it,
because you will get rewarded insome way, even if the business
isn't successful, you'll earn,you'll create a new skill set or
something.
It's funny how you get the Rand the ROI from investing in a
business, because it isn'talways the business is
successful, but I do believe bychanneling your energies that
way, value is created.
(12:23):
And the phone started ringing.
So I became basically afreelance marketing director for
a number of clients and I didthat for several years and that
sort of got me back on my feet.
You know, sort of the personalbalance sheet went from negative
to positive.
But after doing that for two orthree years I was very, very
conscious that I was helpingbuild other people's businesses
(12:44):
and the key motivation doingReceipt Bank was I want to do a
product business.
I want to do a business thatwould.
The way I talk about is I wantto make money wisely.
I don't want to be just sellingmy time and, of course, the key
thing for everyone who'slistening to this sells their
time.
They know that every time yougo on holiday for a week, you
don't earn for a week.
It wasn't about getting rich,it was literally just about that
(13:05):
.
I would like to be able to goon holiday or, if I'm sick, not
know that, oh, frankly, I'm notearning and that puts pressure
on paying rent at the end of themonth.
So the thinking was I want to doa product business so I make
money wisely.
That was it, and I'd helped tobuild a accountancy practice.
That is one of the things I'vebeen virtual marketing director
for.
So I got to know I'd helped tobuild accountancy practice.
That is one of the things I'dbeen virtual marketing director
(13:28):
for.
So I got to know the accountingworld fairly well.
And the other thing was I'dbecome a very, very, very early
user of cloud accounting.
So I was one of the very fewpeople in the world in 2007,
total serendipitously not out ofof my curiosity, just that, my
accountant having to put me onit but I'd become one of the
first people in the world to usecloud accounting.
(13:49):
So, you know, when it came to2010, which is when we started
Receipt Bank, I had two thingsthere was pure serendipity.
One was I got to know howaccountancy practices worked and
and I was a veteran client, athree-year experienced client of
cloud accounting and that wasexactly it, because often the
(14:10):
question is asked of founders.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
you know how much of a role does timing play in the
success of a venture and whatyou're essentially saying?
There is a lot.
You were somewhat in the rightplace at the right time not to
take away any of the work thatwas involved, but you timed your
entry onto that wave well,timing is everything and so is
luck.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
So a question I like to ask is what was your luck?
Because everyone gets luck andtiming is everything, and you
can actually trace back thecombination of luck and timing
to businesses.
If we take Facebook, forexample, obviously an
unbelievable success, but theyweren't the first social network
(14:56):
.
They know that.
But what do you need for asocial network to break out?
You need broadband and you needdigital cameras, because before
that, a social network ispeople typing it's never going
to break out.
You need broadband and you needdigital cameras, because before
that, a social network ispeople typing it's never going
to break out, whereas when youshare photos, where did facebook
start?
It started in harvard universityin I can't remember, 2005,
(15:16):
whatever.
Why is that interesting?
People always talk about thedot, edu and the status,
definitely a key part of it.
But what else did universitieshave?
They had broadband.
Households did not universallyhave broadband then.
So universities were thenatural place to start because
you had broadband and digitalcameras had got to high
(15:39):
penetration by then.
So you couldn't launch a socialnetwork successfully to break
out in 2000 because broadbandand digital cameras weren't in
the place.
And if you tried to launch it in2012,.
Well, you're going to be toolate because Facebook's already
the dominant social network and,frankly, for every single
business every business you canlook around and trace what are
(16:00):
the precedents that had to be inplace for your business to be
successful?
So many people, of courselistening to this will be very,
very familiar with Xero and I'vespent quite a lot of time
thinking about cloud accountingand its place around the world,
and I don't want to takeanything again away from Rod and
the team.
In the same way, I wouldn'ttake away from the incredible
(16:22):
achievements of Mark Zuckerbergand the team.
But what's really interestingabout New Zealand is New Zealand
had BankLink, so New Zealandaccountants were already
familiar and were alreadyaccepting of the bank feed being
part of their offering and partof their product and, frankly,
(16:43):
part of their processes, whichwas unique around the world,
didn't happen anywhere else inthe world.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
And a big shout out to Malcolm McDonald from
BankLink, who was the guy whowas the CEO and founder of
BankLink, you know was really anearly pioneer in the space.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Absolutely.
So you know that didn't mean itwas inevitable that a cloud
accounting behemoth would comeout of New Zealand.
You know we've got to givecredit to Craig, to Amish and to
Rod and the team, because youknow they did so many phenomenal
things but they had, let's callit fertile ground with BankLink
(17:18):
being there and so, yes, so Ithink timing's important and
sometimes luck's important, andfor me it was being put on cloud
accounting, and the other thingthat happened that was
phenomenal for a seat bank wasthe iPhone.
You know that was not on theapp store.
The business we set out in 2010was not predicated on everyone
(17:42):
having a camera in their pocketand the ability to capture
receipts, so that completelysupercharged the business that
we set out to build.
So that would be another keypiece of luck I believe we had.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
And so, when you started Receipt Bank, what was
the original sort of problemthat you were looking to solve?
You know, this is 2010,.
Early on, what were you lookingto try and do?
Speaker 1 (18:04):
It started as a postal-based service.
It was, you know we were sayingto accountants look, you cannot
make cloud accounting a successif you are only going to get the
accounts payable and expensesat the end of the year or the
end of the quarter when VAT orBAS is due.
You need to get a more steadyflow, a more steady let's call
(18:28):
it feed, of those expenses anddocuments.
So we will create a processwhereby an envelope is sent out
to a client once a month.
They can stuff everything inand send it in and you're now in
a place where you can domanagement accounts and other
advisory services on a morefrequent basis because you have
all the data, whereas if youwait for the clients to do the
(18:52):
shoebox, the carrier bag, at theend of the quarter, at the end
of the year, frankly cloudaccounting is going to be a bit
of a damp squib because youcan't do anything.
The advice you can give, theservices you can sell are going
to be limited, and so we startedout with a monthly postal
service.
And then obviously, we thoughtemail in was interesting, we
(19:14):
thought mobile in you know wewere launching these other
things, but the core submissionmethod, as we called it to begin
with was post.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
And so you then build this business, you and your
co-founder, alexis, and youbuild this out over what?
10, 11 years, no doubt goingthrough multiple rounds.
I know you did a series C, Ithink in 2020, which was pretty
sizable, sort of you know, 55odd million pounds, I think it
was.
Did you sort of follow thetraditional SaaS B2B playbook?
(19:45):
You know, you do, we get a few,a couple of co-founders, and
then we, you know, do a littleangel round and then we do a
seed, and then we do an A and aB and a C.
Is that how you built thebusiness out, or was it a bit
more scrappier than that?
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Yeah, the thing I would say that's quite funny and
I've talked to quite a fewpeople in Silicon Valley about
this and they're verycomplimentary about what Xero
achieved and what we achievedand others outside of Silicon
Valley achieved, because whatyou refer to now as the B2B
playbook completely exists, butit only really came into
existence probably around 2013,2014.
(20:20):
Some key articles were writtenaround 2011, 2012, but it
absolutely did not exist in 2010, 2011, 2012 in any meaningful
way.
And, as one very prominentinvestor said, building a B2B
SaaS business in out ofWellington or out of London
anywhere outside of the valleybefore 2013, is a bit like
(20:43):
inventing the television in astone age society.
You didn't have the tools, youdidn't have anything and it's
true, there were so manyproblems we had and problems we
had to solve and things wedidn't know because there wasn't
a playbook.
So it was much, much scrappier.
And one of the things that wasreally notable, at least for the
London ecosystem, was that wehad to build the businesses and
(21:06):
it wasn't just Receipt Bounceeveryone building B2B SaaS
businesses in London.
Then we had to build thebusinesses and it wasn't just
receipt bags everyone buildingb2b SaaS businesses in London.
Then you had to hire grads.
You had to build the businesson graduates because, unlike in
Silicon Valley, it wasn't like,oh, we can pluck our UX designer
from Facebook or a productowner from Expedia or all these
different job roles that hadveterans in them.
(21:29):
They just didn't exist inLondon and they wouldn't exist
in Auckland or Wellay or inSydney and Melbourne.
So instead you had to hiregraduates and sort of shape them
into the roles you required,and that would be a sort of
major way.
That was very different.
But no, no, it's much, muchscrappier, and even scrappier
doesn't quite tell the realstory.
It was much more groping aroundin the dark of how do you do
(21:54):
this?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And so over that decade, if it was indeed groping
around in the dark and it waspretty scrappy, what was the
toughest part of the wholejourney?
No doubt there were lots ofmoments where it was really,
really tough Looking back.
What was the hardest part?
Speaker 1 (22:11):
The toughest part was definitely the first two years.
So, the first two years,although we were in hindsight, I
don't think we could have gotthe timing any better, starting
in August 2010.
It did not feel like that in2010, 2011, 2012.
(22:31):
So, if we think I might get thenumbers slightly wrong, xero
had something like 10,000subscribers in 2010.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
That sounds about right.
Yeah, I mean, it kicked off in2007 with a listing, and so
three years later and they weretripling every year, I would say
that's about right, let's callit that.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, it might be 20,000 or something, but still
relatively small.
Yeah, uk, one called free agent, one called cash flow, let's
say between then they hadanother 10,000.
We are talking a market that istiny.
I think Gary Turner, who builtthe Xero business in EMEA, he
(23:18):
recently remembered to me thatin 2011, there were less than 30
apps connected to the Xero API.
So that's useful just to talkhow small the market was.
So, though we were growing in2011, we were growing in 2012.
Growing meant growing a tinybusiness, and I remember it was
(23:41):
a conversation with wayneschmidt that made me realize no
way, schmidt was the countrycountry head for australia at
that point?
yeah but this stage he'd movedto be head of bookkeeping in
australia because chris ridd wasin situ.
But he mentioned to me therewere these things called zero
roadshows in australia and itmade me realize how much more
(24:05):
developed the australian marketwas than UK.
And I remember going to ourboard, which was just three or
four of us at the time, butsaying we need to open an
Australian office.
And to point out how weird Isounded.
We are a UK company, I think atthe time our monthly revenue
(24:29):
was £3,000.
And I'm going and saying we nowneed to become an international
business and open an office onthe other side of the world.
And I was right.
We did it.
It was the right thing to do.
But those kind of conversationswere not easy.
It was what are you talkingabout, Michael?
(24:51):
So of course you can thinkabout international expansion
once you've got a dominantbusiness in the UK.
There was a lot of things likethat that at the time you look
and sound pretty odd, butactually you're doing things now
that make sense.
An international B2B SaaSbusiness is quite obvious.
(25:11):
Oh, you position your businesswherever the global market is
most mature and the greatestdemand is, and things like that.
But you know, we were much morein our national silos back then
than we are now.
So there was definitely thatcouple of years where, in some
ways, by many measures, thebusiness looked like it was
(25:32):
failing.
It looked like it was failing,we had very little revenue, the
market size was tiny and you hadto be very concentrated on the
fact is, we were growing everyweek.
So our weekly growth rate wasgood, albeit from a small base,
and cloud accounting was goingto be huge.
(25:55):
So if you focused on those twothings, you took a set of
actions and decisions, it wouldlead one way.
But, of course, if you had yourmindset in a previous mindset,
which is well, you expand offyour own balance sheet when you
have the profits to invest inthe business, you think about
international expansion whenyou're in a dominant position in
(26:17):
your current markets, et cetera, et cetera, you know you needed
to learn a very differentplaybook or invent, as it was, a
very different playbook thanhad.
So those first two years werereally tough.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
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headaches.
Let's get back to the show.
Yeah, and what about the flipside?
What was the best moment inthat receipt bank and what
became known as dext experience?
Was it getting the check?
The end, I mean was and thereward, or was it an award that
you got it somewhere like whatwas the best moment?
Speaker 1 (27:32):
a really, really lovely moment was I'm going to
struggle to get the right year,but that year that we went to
those australia roadshows theywere in feb and we won add-on of
the year at zero con australiathat year.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
I think I partied with you after that.
From memory, I think I mighthave.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
Yeah, it was in Sydney.
It was at the Crown, I think,in Sydney, and I think it would
have been 14.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, something like that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And that just felt an incredible achievement to come
to Australia and open thisAustralian office.
We felt very much like thenewcomers.
We felt very much like theoutsiders and to have succeeded
and helped so many businessesand got that, that was a very,
(28:24):
very emotionally sort ofresonant moment for all of us to
have achieved that, becausethat was the work that went into
that.
You know, trying to bridge twohemispheres you know, sophie,
alexis and I for a year or ayear plus, you know it really
was you're doing whicheverhemisphere you're in, you're
(28:45):
doing your day job and, ofcourse, you're then working past
midnight or up at 5am to doclient calls, to do management
calls, whatever it is for theother hemisphere.
That was hugely rewarding.
And then the other bit wasbefore I sold the business in
2017, we did the Series B andthat was the first time that I
(29:09):
was able to take sort of realmoney out of the business and
was able to buy a house, andthat would have been the other
bit.
That would have been the bitwhere it was.
Frankly, building the businesswas very, very, very stressful
and scary because you're puttingall your energy in something.
It feels very big.
(29:31):
But my personal circumstance,as I say, was I had nothing, and
to be able to take enough moneyout and be able to buy a house
and suddenly be able to feel, ohgod, you know, by that time you
know I'm 40 and it's like I wasterrified will I have the
energy to go again?
You know, if this blows up,will I have the energy to do
(29:52):
this again?
Or am I going to be in my 40swith no assets to my name and
not have the energy to do allthis again, or maybe not the
confidence of a blow up to do itall again?
So I think it would.
Would be that it would bebuying the house and translating
that hard work and that successinto something tangible that is
(30:14):
, oh my God.
I feel, of course, sorry aswell.
This isn't Australia, you knowno super, no pension, no,
nothing to be.
Oh, in some way I'm in a saferplace.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yeah, thank you for sharing that story, because I
think there will be a bunch offounders that can really
resonate with that, so I thinkthat's fantastic.
So then, rolling forward, youultimately exit out of Receipt
Bank or Dext, and you then takesome time, presumably, and then
you start Translucent.
Tell me about why and theorigin story there.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
So the why is a great question.
People do say to me Michael,are you an idiot?
You don't need to do it allagain.
Why do it all again?
And I guess some days I do feellike an idiot and then other
days I'm incredibly excited, butmost of the time I'm incredibly
excited.
It actually came from the issuewe saw at Receipt Bank.
So let's call 2015, 2016.
(31:08):
By that stage, we are eightentities around the world.
We have a business in NewZealand, we have a business in
Australia, south Africa, america, bulgaria, france, uk.
So we have these offices aroundthe world.
We have these entities aroundthe world.
Mainly, we're on zero and we'remanaging multiple entities
around the and obviously Xero isnot designed for that.
(31:30):
You know Xero great software.
We love it.
I still love it, but it's notdesigned to be multi-entity
software, and so we spent Ispoke to quite a lot of other
founders that were tackling thesame problem at the time.
It's like, well, what are youdoing?
What are you doing were buyinga sort of set of different
(31:54):
add-ons, as they were called atthe time, but now apps?
You know you're.
We are hitting issues with thenumber of invoices that Xero
could do.
Of course, you're hittingissues with group reporting,
consolidation.
You're hitting all sorts ofdifferent issues intercompany
transfers, all these kind ofdifferent things and so everyone
is sort of buying differentapps.
You're doing your own sort ofsoftware.
You're doing a whole lot ofExcel and manual process.
Frankly, you're sort of hackingeverything you can to try and
(32:16):
make it work.
We sort of kept the show on theroad for about two years of
running all this sort ofmulti-entity setup, but frankly,
it's a huge amount of work andit is a hack.
You know the best will in theworld.
Xero is not designed to do that, nor is any other SMB
accounting software.
They're designed to befantastic single-entity
softwares.
(32:36):
And so in the end the new CFOcame in and said you know, guys,
you're going to have to move toNetSuite.
And I wasn't intimatelyinvolved in the migration to
NetSuite, but it was afascinating project to watch,
both as an internal manager andas a board member, because of
course the proposal comes toboard that is oh yeah, it's
going to take this many months,it's going to cost this much
(32:58):
more and oh yeah, you as abusiness get no benefits
whatsoever.
Now of course, I'm beingslightly flippant.
The benefit is we can'tcontinue running the existing
system.
The finance team is creaking,they're going to break.
We need to make this move toNetSuite.
But is creaking, they're goingto break.
You know we need to make thismove to NetSuite but there were
no other benefits.
No, by the way, there's anawful lot of extra cost because
(33:20):
with SMB software like Xero, thedata, the finance data, is
easily available to anyone elsein the business, and when we
move to NetSuite it's availableto no one.
So we're going to have to spinup a data warehouse and our data
team as well to make that dataavailable.
Oh, the apps and add-ons thatwork with Xero are not the same
ecosystem that work in NetSuite.
So we're going to rip out wholeother workflows and processes.
(33:41):
We're going to do all thesemigrations as well.
So I was like, oh wow, this is areally sort of interesting
project.
So for many years I said topeople there's a really
(34:01):
interesting business there inwhat I call the zero net suite
gap of people don't want toleave zero.
There's nothing wrong with zeroor each of the per entity or
intra-entity workflows, butthere is the need for a piece of
software that orchestrates orlinks or sits as a platform on
top of Xero for multi-entitybusinesses, and so for many
years I'd say to founders oh, ifyou want a really big business,
(34:22):
that opportunity exists.
And then, after we sold ReceiptBank, dext and I'd been out for
a year or two, I thought youknow, that opportunity is so big
, I'm going to do it myself.
And that's what translucent is.
Translucent is there are many,many businesses out there that
are trying to run multi-entityzero.
They have no interest or desireto leave zero, but they do not
(34:45):
need something like NetSuite.
You know, some businesses do,but a fraction of these
businesses do.
We're often talking things likeproperty companies, where each
property is a zero entity.
Or we might be talking a chainof three restaurants or
something.
They don't need NetSuite and,frankly, if you tried to sell
NetSuite to them, they'dunderstandably take fright.
So we think there's a verylarge number of businesses that
(35:08):
need something that sits on topof zero.
But the old thing, what we didat Receipt Bank doesn't make
sense either.
The old sort of 2015 solutionof oh, you need an app stack,
you need 10 different apps justto make zero multi-entity work.
Well, that makes no senseeither.
Why should your team have tolearn a different ux and pay a
(35:30):
different amount, an extraamount, for every single
workflow and, of course, yourdata and your security and your
permissions and everything areall over the place.
It's like, yeah, that madesense to hack in 2015, but it
doesn't now.
So what we're doing atTranslucent is we're saying, if
you're a multi-entity businessin one piece of software, we
will make sure we cater to everyworkflow.
(35:52):
You need group reporting,consolidation, intercompany bank
consolidation, linking the datawith excel or google sheets,
search, etc.
Etc.
So there's a large number ofapps we need to build.
We're building them one by one,but that's what we're doing.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
A translation and for those that are listening who
are from the accounting worldand, given my background, a lot
of people that listen to thesepodcasts are you need to check
out Translucent and I will makesure that there's ways to link
to you and to Translucent in theshow notes for the episode.
So, when it comes to building abusiness like this, you've done
the startup thing a few times.
(36:30):
Now this is a little bitdifferent.
You're doing this on your ownas the founder and CEO, and
you've got all the experience ofthe last 20-odd years of doing
startups.
How do you approach thingsdifferently with Translucent?
That may be when you startedthis.
You're like you know what.
I'm just going to do this alittle bit differently.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah.
So there's no question, whenyou've had a successful exit,
like Receipt Bank was, you arein a very fortunate position.
And you're in a very fortunateposition, I think, in three ways
.
One is you've got a set ofexperiences that help you.
Second is you have a sort ofpersonal balance sheet.
That means you know you have abit more control of the
company's financial destiny.
(37:10):
And thirdly, you've got a trackrecord that other investors are
keen to invest in.
So you are in a very fortunateposition.
That sometimes means the adviceyou give isn't that useful
because you are in that slightlydifferent position.
What it's meant for me is Ihave built a very different
company this time.
I'm a big believer in aperson's energy is really,
(37:33):
really key, and I'm not quitegoing to go mystical on this but
I do you can.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You can if you want.
Speaker 1 (37:39):
That works for me it's not really my character guy
, but I do believe we've all gota certain amount of energy and
one of the big decisions in lifeis where you choose to put it.
And you know some people wantto put it 100 into their kids
and having, you know, a bigfamily.
Other people choose to put intoa business.
Other people choose to put itinto, you know, becoming a
olympian or things like that.
(38:00):
But the one thing I do believeis that sort of energy is finite
and you've got to be a littlecareful about where you put it.
And I also think and this mightget certain people's backs up I
think when you're you have moreof it than when you're older,
and so one of the things I've.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
definitely it's harder to get those batteries
recharged, isn't it?
When you're older it is.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
And there's no question.
At Receipt Bank, you know I wasdoing absolutely everything.
You know setting up our salesforce writing the emails for
marketing.
You know being on the phone forsales and I sales force writing
the emails for marketing.
You know being on the phone forsales and I'd love to have that
energy, but I don't know.
So there is more.
We are a bigger organization atthis stage of our revenue than
(38:42):
we were at receipt bank becauseI have more people around me
sort of acknowledging that.
I think I need that because Ihave I don't have the energy.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Hopefully I've got a wiser head, hopefully I've got
more experience, but I don'thave quite as much energy and I
was having a conversation withsomebody on the podcast here the
other day about sometimesactually having the time to
reflect and therefore make abetter decision, and the old
sort of principle of measuretwice cut once that by actually
(39:12):
having more people around you totake some of the grind away and
the urgent stuff away, for youto have space to go for a walk,
to go for a run, to get out intoa park and to think, then
you're actually possibly goingto make a much better decision
that creates a lever for thefuture success of the business.
(39:33):
Do you think that's true?
So actually, it's not inputsbased, it's outputs based.
Speaker 1 (39:38):
I think there comes a time.
That's definitely true.
I'm not there yet.
I'm still very sort of runningon the treadmill.
There's no question, though, myrole at Receipt Bank got to
there, and I became very, veryeffective due to that.
So, again, I might slightlybutcher the anecdote, but I know
sort of Warren Buffett sort ofsays he spends sort of 80% of
(40:00):
his time reading, and I was veryfortunate and I got a time at
Receive Upquake where the mostof my time could be spent
speaking to people and reading.
So, whether it was speakingwith competitors, speaking with
customers, speaking withpartners like Xero, speaking to
VCs and reading and there is noquestion that can become a
(40:24):
superpower.
If you can get a business largeenough where you can afford
that to be your role, I think itis an unbelievable superpower.
I've experienced it in the past.
I can't wait to get back thereBecause, as you say, you can
make a small number of very,very powerful decisions, as
(40:44):
opposed to running around and,frankly, making a very high
number of very small decisions.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
And what is your superpower?
I mean, obviously, you can talkabout getting to the state in
the business where you've gotmore time to be able to make
better decisions, which is initself, a superpower.
What about for you personally?
Just the personality that youbring, the skill set that you
have?
What is that?
Where are you in your and Ihate using this phrase your zone
of genius?
Speaker 1 (41:10):
and I hate using this phrase you're a zoner genius,
so I think I'm very good atlet's call that sort of medium
timeframe of seeing where anindustry will go.
So am I the guy who knows whattech will look like in 20 years?
No, I don't know enough aboutchip architecture and things
(41:32):
like that.
Do I get distracted by what anindustry will look like in six
months or 12 months?
No, but I'm very good at thatsort of three to five year.
This is where the puck is going, this is how things are going
to look and this is where mybusiness needs to get to, and I
can advise other people wheretheir businesses need to get to,
(41:54):
and that I think I'm very, verygood at and speaking of
advising other businesses onwhere they can go, because that
is quite a superpower to havethat sort of three to five year
mid-term clarity.
Speaker 2 (42:08):
Do you get involved with other founders and, whether
it's through angel investing orjust advising people over
coffee, do you do much of that?
Have you got time and space?
Speaker 1 (42:16):
for that.
I've done a little bit.
I do less now that sort oftranslucent is so full time.
But yeah, I sit on a couple ofboards.
I've made angel investments inthe past.
Again, I do less of it.
I don't think I'm very good atit.
We'll see in five years time ifmy cohort does well.
You know, I think I've got acouple of winners in there, but
definitely quite a few thatdidn't work out.
(42:38):
But no, for some of them Idefinitely sort of spend the
time and yeah, I definitely sortof have coffees.
You know I'm proud.
There's quite a few people inthe zero ecosystem over the last
sort of 10 years that I've beenable to help and assist and
give advice to.
So yeah, I tried to do that,but definitely with Translucent
being so full on.
The time is not, is a bit morelimited now.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
And a common trait in well, not just founders but in
humanity, is this impostersyndrome, and you've had a
really successful exit.
You've done you know what whatthree or four startups now but
do you still ever have doubts orfeel the imposter syndrome
element or are you kind of pastthat now?
Speaker 1 (43:21):
so the answer I'd give to that, greg, is I'm a big
believer in only the paranoidsurvive I love that phrase.
So I'm constantly checking ourplans, rechecking them.
What are we doing?
Have we got this right?
You know, and even in you know,translucent's been going now
for, let's say, meaningfully, 18months.
(43:42):
We're still very young, verynew.
Already.
In that time we've made acouple of pretty big mistakes
that we've had to correct andthings like that.
We've got some fantastic thingsright as well, but you've
always got to be looking andre-looking.
Only the paranoid survive.
I love that.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
And how do you recharge and refill the, as you
say, the finite resource, thatis, your own energy?
How do you go about doing that?
Do you read and get inspired,do you run or walk, or do you
spend time with family?
What's your way of kind ofgetting away so that you can?
Speaker 1 (44:18):
recharge.
I think I'm really bad at it.
I think thanks for being honest,that's good.
I think they would say I'mpretty bad at it as well.
I would love to find ways toget better at it.
The one thing that I've found Ifound it last summer that's
really worked for me is spendingtime in and on the water, and
basically I've always spent timein and on the water, but I
(44:40):
suddenly realized last summerthat that does work for me, and
whether it's because of course,you can't be checking your phone
, whether you're kayaking orI've got really into flight
boarding, which is when you'vegot one of these e-foils, that
sort of on the water or swimmingor anything, I find that helps.
But I slightly worry that that'salmost a false one, in that it
(45:02):
works because I can't check myphone or I can't.
You know you have to be.
You know if you're a kayak orif you're doing something so
active you can't think about thebusiness, and I wish I had an
ability to be a bit more mindfuland just be able to sit on the
sofa and not let myself getdistracted.
So I was actually at a dinnerparty on Saturday night and I
(45:23):
was chatting to one friend abouttranslucent and another friend.
She literally sort of shoutedat me from across the table of
Michael.
Stop it, it's Saturday nightjust no, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
you know she was probably rightand then what did you say?
Only the paranoid survive thatwouldn't have gone down well
with her, to be fair to her.
(45:44):
She said you've got 15 minutesand then you've got to stop.
So I was like, okay, fine,we'll finish our conversation.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
I love that.
I love that your friends lookout for you and and I'll talk to
you offline about the e-foil,because I'm kind of intrigued by
that.
One final question for youbefore we let you get on with
your day, because you're in acompletely different hemisphere
to me.
What is something that very fewpeople would know about you?
Your family know about it andthose close to you know maybe it
(46:09):
was the e-foiling, but what'ssomething that very few people
know about?
Speaker 1 (46:12):
Michael Wood, I don't think of myself as a
particularly private person, butI do know that self-awareness
isn't maybe that correct.
I remember some people inreceipt banks sort of saying
that you know they knew certainthings but sort of not other
things.
There's sort of things I'vedone that are sort of I maybe
don't talk like I've sailed theAtlantic and things like that.
There's's certain things I'vedone that I don't always talk
(46:34):
about in a work content andthere's two or three things I've
done like that that are quiteinteresting.
I've cycled from Melbourne toSydney and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Those are big things, michael.
Those are big things.
I've just casually dropped thatin that I've sailed across the
Atlantic and I've ridden a bikefrom Melbourne to Sydney, which
for anybody who doesn't knowthat is a long way.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
Is it 2000k or 2000?
Speaker 2 (46:57):
miles.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
Yeah, it'd be something I quite like things
that have an A to B.
So if you said to me oh Michael, do you want to go and cycle
2000k?
I'd be like oh my God.
No, that sounds awful.
But if you give a narrative toit, like going from A to B or
the sailing was from Portugal toAmerica, so it felt very sort
of Columbus.
Like you know, if you givesomething as a narrative to it,
(47:19):
my mind really attaches to it.
So I quite like things likethat.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
Michael, it is.
It's always a real pleasureseeing you and I always prefer
when we're doing that over awine or a meal.
In this case we're doing itwith some podcast microphones
but honestly, talking to you, Ifeel personally, I feel really,
really inspired, and I knowthere'll be people listening who
also feel like that.
I want to thank you for beingopen and candid about the
(47:46):
journey and that you've been on,because lots of people again
will resonate with that.
As I said, I'll put ways forpeople to connect with both
yourself and Translucent on theshow notes, your LinkedIn
profile, etc.
Just want to thank you for thetime you've given today.
It's been a real honour to chatto you.
Speaker 1 (48:04):
Not at all, thank you .
Thank you very much for takingthe time to speak with me.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team
behind you, being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
money.
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