July 16, 2024 • 50 mins
Andrea Blair (or Andy to her mates), a powerhouse in sustainable development and geothermal energy, joins us for a riveting discussion that promises to leave you inspired and informed. Recognised by Forbes as one of the five female founders championing a sustainable future, Andy's story is one of resilience, adaptability, and relentless drive. From her roots in Taupō in New Zealand to her transformative roles as past president of the International Geothermal Association and a board member of Global Woman, Andy opens up about the experiences and values that have shaped her remarkable career. Andy is now the CoFounder of Upflow.
Journey with us as Andy recounts her path from a curious science enthusiast to a prominent figure in the geothermal industry. Discover how her early career in forestry, followed by a pivot to tourism and a stint as the CEO of a skydiving operation, showcased her ability to thrive in male-dominated sectors. She candidly discusses challenges like imposter syndrome and the grit required to push through, exemplified by her training for the gruelling Coast to Coast race in New Zealand. Andy’s journey is a testament to the power of hard work and perseverance.
We also explore the immense potential of geothermal energy and its ethical appeal. Andy shares her insights on embracing indigenous knowledge, the hurdles of securing investment for climate tech, and the necessity of courageous leadership to promote gender equality and sustainable development. This episode is packed with visionary ideas and personal anecdotes that highlight the interconnectedness of global impact and personal values. Join us for a thought-provoking conversation that underscores the importance of authenticity and the moral responsibility to lead by example.
You can connect with Andy on LinkedIn and check out Upflow.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm not scared of being wrong and I love to be
challenged, and so when I standup and be me, I'm being me and
I'm okay with that, and so Idon't feel like an imposter at
being me.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
My guest today is Andrea Blair, or known to
everybody as Andy.
Forbes magazine actuallyawarded you the title of one of
the five female founders leadingthe charge for a sustainable
future.
You're a board member of GlobalWoman, and I'm not actually
including all of them.
There's more, but we'd be hereall day.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
You know, my dad always said I don't care if
you're the prime minister or ifyou're pumping gas at a petrol
station, but you have to workhard and do the best you can and
wherever you are.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:05):
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Now back to the show.
My guest today is Andrea Blair,or known to everybody in.
Well, actually I was going tosay New Zealand, but in the
broader global world as Andy.
Andy, welcome.
It's a real honour actually tobe able to speak to you today.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Kia ora Greg.
Honour to be here too.
I enjoy a microphone and a chat, so I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, well, listen, I almost don't know where to
start.
Today, I was looking at youraccolades and I'm going to read
through some of them, just as wekind of get into this and I'm
not actually including all ofthem, there's more, but we'd be
here all day because you havedone so many things.
So and these are not innecessarily any order as well so
, forbes magazine actuallyawarded you the title of one of
(02:38):
the five female founders leadingthe charge for a sustainable
future.
You are an immediate pastpresident of the International
Geothermal Association.
So that's the InternationalGeothermal Association.
You're a board member of GlobalWoman.
You are a winner of the weEmpower UN Sustainable
Development Goals Challenge andjust recently and it's very,
(03:01):
very cool to see you wereawarded an Officer of the New
Zealand Order of Merit in thislatest King's Birthday Honours
list.
Congrats on that, too.
Unbelievable.
How did you get to be here,though?
Tell us a little bit about yourearly origin story and where
you grew up.
Did you always imagine that youwould be in a place like you
are now?
What did growing up look likefor you?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, thanks for the list.
And it's always interestingwhen you hear the list because
you're like that's reallyimpressive, wonder who that
person is.
And I think the commonalitybetween all of those things is
that I'm an agitator and I amgoing on to the Global Woman
Board.
I asked them what could I bring, because they're super
impressive woman at the tablethere you, teresa Getting and
(03:45):
and other other leaders which Irespect hugely and they said
because we need an agitator.
And I think that talks to someof those, that sort of
recognition, which is also verystrange to me.
I think you just try and operatein the world and push at places
where you feel strongly andthese things come along the
(04:08):
wayside.
I think my backstory.
Where did I come from?
So, taupo, nui Atea.
This is where I am today andwhere I grew up.
I went to Tauhara College,proud Tauhara College, small
school in Taupo.
I think I was very muchinfluenced by heavy engagement
(04:28):
with Te Ao Māori during myexperience in growing up, which
has actually had a hugeimpression on the way that I
look at the world and how Iparticipate in the world.
Our Māori teacher at Te Ao HaraCollege was Te Ururoa Flavell,
who was the head of the MāoriParty for a period of time to
college was Te Ururoa Flavell,who was the head of the Māori
Party for a period of time, andso that's had a real influence
(04:52):
on me and how I operate.
I've always been a nerd, so I'ma deep geek.
I'm really curious about theworld.
I want to know stuff.
I'm the annoying person who'swhy does that work, how does
that work?
Person and want to challengethings.
So I started my career in myscience foray doing a Bachelor
of Science in Technology focusedon forestry science big sort of
sector around where I grew upand worked in that space and
(05:15):
then, through working in such astrong, male-dominated industry
like forestry, which Ipassionately love, I felt really
different from what thestructure and how things are
supposed to be, and that's why Iactually used the name Andy.
Which is quite interesting isthat at the time back then I'm
(05:37):
really old, so it's some timeago.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You're not that old.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
People, would You're not?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
that old.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Just feels that way sometimes, Greg Tell me about it
that I wasn't getting responsesto my emails, and so I changed
my name to Andy, which is with aY on purpose, and that changed
the sort of interaction Istarted having when people
didn't see me, and so that'swhen I adopted Andy, and in that
forestry science place I'm adeep geek, I love all that sort
(06:06):
of stuff I then was maderedundant in the forestry
industry, a role that I wasdoing, and I thought you know,
I'm just going to walk out ofthis room and I'm going to walk
into the tea room and look inthe paper back when you used to
look in the paper for jobs, andI'm going to look in there and
see what I think is cool.
And I'm going to look in thereand see what I think is cool and
(06:26):
I'm just going to picksomething.
And there were two roles that Ithought that I could do and I
would love to do, which was theoperations manager of a super
yacht building company, becauseI was very good at operational
stuff, and then the 2IC for KiwiExperience, which is the
tourism product here in NewZealand, and I managed to get
the Kiwi Experience role, and soI was in Kiwi Experience for a
(06:50):
number of years five years, Ithink it was and was the acting
general manager at the end ofthat time for Kiwi Experience
and I learned a lot aboutleadership.
So everyone sort of thinks well, you're a geek and you went to
tourism.
How is that?
You know, that must have beenstrange, and I would say I
learnt big lessons aboutleadership in my role at Kiwi
(07:13):
Experience.
They had about 75 staff at thetime and quite a variety of
people.
But also if you sit at thefront of a bus and you've got 50
people sitting behind you fromall different nations, driver
guides, compelling people towalk through rivers to do
something, that's leadership andhow do you manage those
(07:33):
situations.
So I feel like that was a realformative leadership space for
me.
Then I became the CEO of askydiving operation, which is a
huge story.
Became the CEO of a skydivingoperation which is a huge story
and as you can see, I'm notboundaried by different
industries and did that role fora period of time.
And then it didn't work out forme in that space and I took a
(07:57):
year off and I trained full timeto do the coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I saw that.
It's just super impressive.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I know and you know.
The funny part, greg, is, whenI told people I was doing that,
not one of my friends said, wow,that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
They were all oh, yeah, okay and give people some
color for what the coast tocoast is, because there are
there are a number of people whomight be listening to this, who
are not in New Zealand andAotearoa, who may not know what
the coast-to-coast is.
Give them a sense of what itlooks like.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, so it's a massive physical challenge.
At the time it was one of thepro enduro sport multi-sport
events in the world.
So all the professionalathletes in multi-sport events
would come and do this race.
The coast-to-coast, which isthe west coast of the South
Island of New Zealand to theeast coast of the South Island
of New Zealand and that's abouta 273 kilometre event which has
(08:53):
like 60 kilometres of whitewaterrafting, had a 50 kilometre
mountain run over the Alps.
You know it's like ridiculous,it was, it's ridiculous and so
it's a massive physicalchallenge which, you know, I
didn't say I'll do a halfmarathon, I said I'll do the
coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I'll just run across the South Island mountains and
nuts.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And that sort of feeds into my.
I could always do what I wantedto do and I just had to work
hard.
And so I did a year off and Idid the, trained really hard, I
lost lots of weight, workedreally hard and did the event.
I did not finish the event,which is a god damn.
I have to go back and do it nowagain.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How far away were you finishing?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was like I got severe cramp on the mountain run
and got pulled off within acouple of kilometres of the
finish.
So hurt like I got severe crampon the mountain run and got
pulled off within a couple ofkilometers of the finish.
So hurtful, hurtful in a deepplace.
That failure of that to me wasa really big mental thing I had
to work through as well.
But, more importantly, I'm sogutted because I have to go back
and do it again now becausethat's the hurtful thing, right.
(10:01):
So at the end of that year andafter the event, I started my
journey into the geothermalindustry.
So there was a role that came upat GNS science, which is a
government owned researchorganization in New Zealand
based on earth sciences, and arole came up in there to be the
(10:22):
business development manager tolook after geothermal
hydrogeology and microbiology.
And I thought, cool.
I mean, I love science, I'm adeep geek, but I don't want to
put a lab coat on and do thehard work.
I just want to talk about thecool stuff, I want to enable it
and see it in the world.
So that was really my first stepinto geothermal and where I
(10:44):
really found the people and theplace I wanted to be in, and I
was in GNS at GNS for about 10years and met the most amazing
people industrial gap in theworld between these amazing
(11:07):
scientists and brains that aresolving really cool things and
actually operating out in theworld so commercial operators
and businesses thinking there'ssome cool pieces here that need
to join together and operate inthe real world, and there was
nothing in the middle thatbridged between those two spaces
.
And that's where me and mybusiness partner, co-founder
(11:32):
Paul, found the gap for Upflow,and so I traveled around the
world.
I was setting up contracts inall different places around the
world.
I could see that this was aglobal issue in the geothermal
sector and that was the premisewe built Upflow on, which is the
bridge between deep science andcommercial reality we started
that seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So that's my journey to.
Yeah.
I mean, there's just so manydifferent threads I sort of am
keen to pull on there.
But if you look at your entryinto GNS and then that broader
geothermal world, was that justa massive kind of almost.
I don't want to use the wordawakening, but I'll use the word
awakening like a sense of whatpossibilities existed out there
globally for somebody like youand with your brain for me,
(12:14):
being a part of that communitywas really transformative,
because I got to see how thisspace and this proposition to
the world actually really didtransform communities.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So going out into Central America and seeing how
these projects could offer notjust energy but solutions for
some of the societalenvironmental issues that are
going on as well, so as anoffering and competitive against
, you know, wind and fossilfuels and solar and other things
, it just could offer so muchand you could see transformation
(12:50):
in ways that are more than justdollars out in the world.
I also found a community ofpeople that I really enjoy being
around and being part of.
Geothermal is a place where thesame sort of skills you can
work in oil and gas and you knowthat industry and get paid lots
of money.
So people are choosinggeothermal because there's more
(13:10):
than money.
There's this ethical thing weall feel about doing good for
the planet.
So there's this connection wehave globally.
But there are some reallycomplex factors to it that mean
you have to be really smart andyou have to be in a team of
smart people to solve, and soit's a really smart open.
Have to be in a team of smartpeople to solve, and so it's a
really smart, open communitythat's doing good for the world,
but also it's a really smallcommunity, so there's only a few
(13:31):
hundred thousand peopleglobally that really are
directly employed by geothermal.
So it's a place where you canhave impact.
So someone from Tohara Collegein Taupo in New Zealand could
become the president of theworld geothermal base in the
Netherlands.
Is you know, that's not anopportunity that's afforded to
you in bigger spaces.
(13:52):
So it's a place where you canhave impact.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's actually a phenomenal area and so give us
some sense of shape, ofgeothermal sort of globally Like
have we got any idea what sortof percentage it makes up of
total energy production?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, it's a very small.
It's very, very small.
It's in the niche category.
We are in the small, fewpercent sort of space.
However, it's really a strongoffering with respect to it's
not influenced by atmosphericconditions, so you don't need
wind, you don't need to blow,you don't need a lot of sun, you
(14:29):
don't need those sorts ofthings.
But it offers baseload energy,which means that it's always on,
it doesn't turn off, and it'sthose additional things that are
important, so it can offer youenergy and electricity.
But also a geothermal isbasically rain falling down onto
the ground, percolating intothe ground and going across the
(14:50):
hot sort of you know, the deeperyou go, the hotter it gets
right Going across that hot sortof space and then coming to the
surface.
And as those fluids come to thesurface, they bring with it the
minerals and the gases that areunderground up to the top, and
so what comes out the top is notwater, it's like a brine, a
(15:11):
brine sort of thing.
Yeah, so inside of that brinethere are gases which are useful
to us, there are minerals, suchas lithium and all the critical
minerals that we need for oursolar panels and our electric
cars and all of those things,and so there's a lot of work
going on on how to usegeothermal in a broader sense.
(15:32):
So mining that fluid forminerals means that maybe we
don't need to have open castmines for lithium and their
lithium projects globally, andthat is a by-product of
electricity.
So it's not a that or this,it's a electricity and minerals
and other things.
It's a cool prospect.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's a very cool prospect and you know, I'm
imagining not all parts of theworld are sort of naturally
endowed with the ability to havegeothermal.
Is it places like new zealand,where we've got, you know,
relatively sort of I don't know,no scientists, certainly no
geothermal scientists We've gotmud pools and sort of a lot of
volcanic activity here, is it,you know, only in those areas
(16:17):
where you can have geothermal orjust about anywhere, as long as
you've got rainfall and thenwater bubbling back up through
the aquifers and things?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Traditionally we've always been in those really hot
spaces.
So if we think about the Ringof fire and other tectonic plate
boundaries like the Africanrift and other locations
globally, we think of geothermalbecause we think of hot springs
and geysers and all those sortsof things, the natural
expressions of geothermal.
However, everywhere in theworld you go down, it'll get
(16:47):
hotter and it's actually aboutthe cost to access that heat.
That is the barrier and how toaccess that heat.
That is the barrier and how toutilize that heat energy.
So there are a lot oftechnologies now focused on
going deeper, not requiring somuch fluid being in those other
places.
So geothermal everywhere is aplay that's being worked on in
(17:08):
the industry and what that meansis lower temperature places,
like in New Zealand, we thinkthat topo volcanic zone, from
like Ruapehu all the way out toWhite Island.
There's a space where thegeology allows for those really
high temperature fields, whichmeans it doesn't cost much to
get to so we can produceelectricity.
But there are lower temperatureareas now that we're
(17:31):
investigating where we canproduce electricity.
But there are lower temperatureareas now that we're
investigating where we canutilize that energy directly for
bathing and greenhouses and allsorts of other things.
So the traditional hightemperature locations on those
tectonic settings, yes, that'swhat you see now, but it's
broadening out into those otherspaces with new technologies and
utilization Also.
(17:52):
Another factor to it isgeothermal environments
themselves, so warm groundcreates.
So we've got a project wherewe're using microbes that come
from these geothermalenvironments and they're called
extremophiles, like extreme likenowadays X-philes we call it.
Why those are important thoseextreme environments where it's
(18:14):
high temperature or hightoxicity or weird chemistry.
Acidity means thatmicroorganisms that live there
have to have really weirdadaptions in their bodies to
allow them to live in thesenon-livable spaces and those
adaptions are really good forbiotech applications.
So one of the gold standard wecall it the gold standard x
(18:36):
files is a bug from theyellowstone national park called
thermos aquaticus.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm going to try and not get too sciencey sounds like
something out of transformers,but it sounds super exciting
thermos aquaticus I know it's asuper cool one and you actually
have heard of it, you'veactually probably used it.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So thermos aquaticus in I know it's a super cool one
and you actually have heard ofit, you've actually probably
used it.
So thermus aquaticus, like 60years ago, was used.
The enzyme from this littlemicroorganism from this
geothermal location was used tohelp with DNA replication.
So remember back in the daywhen you watch crime scene
movies and they're like we'vegot the DNA and let's do the map
and you're the electrophoresisgel and you see the lines all
(19:14):
match up and you're like he wasthe murderer.
So the ability to make thattechnology work came from this
enzyme in Yellowstone, becauseto pull DNA apart you have to
have really high temperature, so70 plus degrees, and no
organism living in the normalliving environment could have an
enzyme that could survive it,but Thermus aquaticus could.
(19:36):
So they pulled it out, put itin and they used it for PCR
technology, which is in that oneand that's also the testing
recently for COVID used PCRtechnology.
So it's from a geothermalmicroorganism that we used for
that biotech.
Our project that we've got justgot some funding for is we're
(19:58):
taking co2 and methane wastegases and we're feeding them to
the.
A couple of microorganismswe've found in a geothermal hot
spring in new zealand that eatthose gases and they make single
cell protein.
So we're making food from wastegases using these microbes.
So super cool technology that'soffering us solutions for some
(20:22):
of those really big globalproblems, and we can find them
in these geothermal environments.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
And you know this is because this is actually, as you
said earlier, this is arelatively small percentage of
global energy generation, butyou've actually got this ability
to essentially do miningwithout mining, without
extraction.
Well, you might be looking atextraction, but you don't have
to sort of open up a giant youknow hole in the ground to do it
(20:50):
.
You don't have to destroy theenvironment to do it and you can
get access to these sorts ofelements that it feels like you
might be on the cusp, as anindustry, of something really
quite profound, because it'sheavily sustainable and yet it's
giving us access to these newforms of science that we're so
desperately looking for andgrowing the energy base which we
(21:12):
all need as a planet as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
that feels pretty exciting, and I don't know if
there's, you know, many otherareas of energy that would say
they've got that confluence ofthose sorts of factors that's
why I love it, because it feelslike a place of solutions yeah,
and and you're right, thosecritical minerals and if you
think about geopoliticalsecurity, yeah, and of supply.
(21:36):
So it doesn't mean that in newzealand we have to have the
biggest export of lithium orwhatever.
But to know that in our countrywe can get our own lithium from
not turning our soil over, thatmeans that in any future trade
discussions you know we're safefrom that sort of risk
(21:56):
associated with that.
And so it's a reallyinteresting supermarket to shop
for solutions in geothermal.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And it's also this really amazing confluence of,
you know, science, the community, business and sustainability
all in one place.
It must give you opportunities,but it must also present some
real challenges at times as well, some super challenges, and I
guess that's what Upflow is allabout, right, like helping
people navigate a lot of thatsort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's absolutely that.
And when I spoke earlier abouthaving a Te Ao Māori lens across
the world, you think about.
These sort of solutions for theworld have to be broader than
economic.
We need to seek out thoseenvironmental and social and
cultural solutions.
And when we think aboutindigenous world, how they
operate in the world, this isthe lens they use.
(22:48):
And so when I go to COP and Ihear leaders stand up and say we
should be thinking aboutbusiness models that consider
the environment and I think it'salready there and so when we
think about geothermal and youknow we can make electricity,
which is really strongfinancially, then we can also
heat all our homes and ourvillage.
(23:09):
We can also provide employmentthrough these really
significantly important places.
It just offers a lot.
And when you go to places I'vebeen to many places where I've
seen this in place, sogeothermal often is in these
rural locations near mountainsor villages and there's tends to
be high you know there are realbenefits for communities that
(23:29):
live amongst geothermallocations.
I've seen it, a project I'veseen in El Salvador, a place
that you think why would Itravel to.
Like El Salvador sounds reallydangerous and you know why would
I go there.
But when I went there to speakat an event, I went to visit one
power station and they had setup a business that took the
cooling water some water fromthe cooling tower of their
(23:52):
geothermal electricity powerstation and they'd set up a
business where they'd hired 500local women only women.
Because the leader therethought if you lift women up,
they'll take everyone aroundthem with them, so it's about
prosperity of local village.
They created a cacao and acoffee plantation, commercial
(24:13):
plantation on site, using theleftover water from the cooling
tower, and have this commercialbusiness, which is sustainable.
They then thought okay, so now,if there's a lot of women here
and women are the primarycaregivers, we should set up,
you know, a creche so their kidsare safe and they can feel good
about coming.
And then they said then theysaid well, okay, why don't we
(24:34):
support the community by settingup a school?
So they have on-site a schoolcalled, which is like the window
to the world, and every daythey have one school from the
surrounding villages that comeand learn first world robotics.
They have a full-size kitchenwhere they learn about food and
(24:54):
nutrition.
You know they do recoding andit's about giving them
aspirations outside of wherethey currently are because 90%
of the homes are dirt floors.
So the sort of enabling thatgeothermal can do in these sort
of communities, you know it'snot really well spoken about but
it's hugely transformative andyou see leadership in places
(25:18):
where you don't hear loudleadership visibly, you know in
the Western world, and so for methat's a real example.
We can hold up and move aroundthe world.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
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(26:11):
headaches.
Let's get back to the show.
Do you see, through yourinvolvement you know, for
example, with the InternationalGeothermal Association and even
just with you know with GlobalWoman the possibilities that
exist for us to solve our bigproblems globally, like we've
got some massive issues globally.
Do you get encouraged by yourinvolvement with groups like
(26:34):
these and just the possibilitiesthat you know that present that
?
We're always on the cusp oflearning something new.
Maybe that can help solve ourproblems.
Do these groups give you thatsense of you know this is
possible.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
If you could meet all the amazing women and climate
tech people I get to meet, you'dfeel very good about where the
world's going.
So I just think the structuresin which we're trying to operate
are really hard and the biasesthat exist make things really
difficult, but the source ofsolutions and the brains and the
smarts and the lenses that arethere are there.
(27:08):
They are there.
It's just how do we enable themso being able to look at
problems differently, thinkingabout diversity across those big
places and boardrooms.
You know the problems that havethe heads that have created the
problem are not going to solvethe problem.
So how do we create the spacefor them to participate?
I think that's the key rollover.
(27:31):
But what I do know is there aresome amazing people ready and
trying and they just need someenablement to get them going.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah.
What's been the hardest thingon this journey so far?
In whatever roles that you'replaying Because you've
definitely got a full calendarall the time and you're involved
in multiple things what's beenthe toughest part of this
journey to date?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
A couple of things, personally and a professional.
There are a couple of thingsthat have been really difficult.
First, talk about the in theprofessional space and trying to
make climate tech and solutionsreal in a place where
everyone's screaming for how dowe solve this climate thing?
We need it now.
Hearing all the rhetoric,hearing all the people stand up
(28:14):
and saying where is it, and thennot having the support to make
it real.
That's really hard.
And the problem is around oxygen, and by oxygen I mean money,
and people say things like it'sreally difficult.
And it's not difficult, it'sleadership.
People can make decisions andmake change happen, and it's so
hard to watch leaders not makethose choices.
(28:36):
And I don't just meangovernment, because in all
honesty, I think governmentaren't leaders in change.
I think they are sticks andcarrots to help change.
But leader sits outside ofgovernment Leadership and good
ideas sit outside of government,and so how do we change outside
of government leadership andgood ideas outside of government
?
And so how do we change outsideof government leadership to
make change hard choices for thefuture?
(29:00):
So when I think about money andI say that, it's because the
solutions that we're offeringwith respect to climate and
environment and diversity don'tfit the norm, because the norm
created the space of where weare now, so these solutions are
never going to fit that.
So when you go to try and findinvestment and you turn up and
(29:22):
these groups say we want toinvest, so when you go to try
and find investment and you turnup and these groups say we want
to invest in diversity, we wantto invest in climate.
However, what that really meansto us who are trying to get
that investment is you have totick all the boxes of every
other business you're competingwith and you have to demonstrate
the burden of achieving all ofthose climate goals or diversity
goals as well.
(29:42):
Yeah, so there's no actualchange to the system the
paradigms yeah and so it's sucha massive burden.
We fund managers and people wholead this we have to re-educate.
Every time we talk to them wehave to.
Then I have to explaineverything about geothermal
technology and about why ittakes so long and why it's
capital intensive up front andwhat that means.
(30:05):
Also, the base case is not zero.
So people say you have to beatthe base case.
In our world in the energysector, the base case is against
fossil fuels.
Yeah, and fossil fuel subsidiesare massive, like $7 trillion a
year subsidising fossil fueloperations to be profitable and
(30:29):
operate.
So if we are basing our basecase in New Zealand at something
like $450 million a year, go tofossil fuel industries to
support them, to give us lowprices for our fuel and all
sorts of other things.
Support them to give us lowprices for our fuel and all
sorts of other things.
So when you're doing the basecase for a geothermal project
versus the norm price, peopleare paying for things.
(30:49):
That's an inflated.
It's not zero.
New Zealand's giving money tothat other side of the ledger.
And so how do we ask people orshow people when this investment
that you're making iscomparative and also that cost
there?
How do we allow for the cost ofthe environment and the true
(31:12):
cost of resource use and tosociety and the burden future
burden versus the base case.
I think that's a really hardplace to talk into because
people go, yeah, yeah, yeahsounds good, but can't see it,
and so therefore it's hard toget over the line.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's like trying to bring any hard change when
you're up against the paradigmsof the norm and whatever the
norm is, whether that's even inmedicine or medical research,
and you've got peer review whichkeeps everything in sort of a
lockstep.
It means that nothing is trulythat innovative because it's
kind of all done in sync witheverybody else, so there's
(31:49):
nothing radical that comes inand tests it and challenges it,
and I think that's true of anyarea of innovation.
And in fact there's a quote Ithink I've used this on the
podcast before and I think itwas George Bernard Shaw and it
an old quote but it's that.
No, you know, all progressrelies on the unreasonable man,
and let's just impose woman onthat as well.
Like it's, all progress relieson you being unreasonable,
(32:12):
because by default that's howyou get progress, because of
everything everybody thinks it'sreasonable.
It's not that innovative, it'snot that.
So it's very challenging in anindustry like geothermal to
break outside of the paradigmsLike incredibly hard.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's really tough and it's also the same in the
gender space, the equality space.
It's really hard to pushthrough because you can't ask
people just to feel bad about athing Like because we have
society built on these rules andwe're asking for your brain to
push against those rules and thebias is so subtle, that's an
(32:49):
institutionalized, we don't eventest it.
Yeah.
So things like why do we workat 8 30 to 5 pm day?
Who said that was okay?
That doesn't work for mums orpeople who are looking after
their extended family.
Why do we just accept thosebiases that keep one part of
society not participating fully?
(33:11):
So I think challenging thestructure in which you're
operating and the biases thatexist are all part of change and
leadership.
I think everybody thinks thatyou have to be popular to be a
leader, but I think leadershipmeans that you need to step
through the scary spaces.
And lots of people say to mesolving gender equality or
(33:34):
diversity in our business isreally hard.
Well, it's not.
Actually, it's one singledecision of leadership to say,
okay, we're only going to hirewomen this year and people say,
oh, that's a reverse diversityor something.
And it's actually not.
If you look at the Human RightsAct.
It says that you have to lookat the results, not the process.
(33:54):
So if you are continuing tooperate as you are and
continuing to support the biasesthat are keeping people out,
you are actually already againsthuman rights.
Unless you put something in tochange the result for people and
so you know it's a leadershipcall you just stand up and say
it's hard and I'm doing it, andI'm changing it today, and then
(34:17):
take the hits.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Who's going to say it's unfair when it's fairness
that you're fighting for and, asyou say, you know that's right
who's going to say it's unfairwhen it's fairness that you're
fighting for?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
and, as you say, you know that's.
That's what leadership is.
It is about making some reallytough calls.
I've talked about this oftenleaders have followers.
If you don't have peoplefollowing, you, you're not,
you're not leading.
You were starting to touch alsoon some personal challenges
that have been hard.
You yeah, yeah, so it's really.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It is very difficult and I thought this about when,
you know, when I received myking's honors list and and to me
it's really, it is verydifficult and I thought this
about when, you know, when Ireceived my King's Honours list
and to me it's really difficultbecause I, my team, is so smart,
they are so smart and Icouldn't do any of what I do
without them and I get held upquite a lot.
(34:56):
And I find it quite difficultbecause, you know, I'm part of a
really strong team who Irespect and I learn every day
from.
I'm not if I call myself ageothermal scientist.
I get so mocked because that isabsolutely not the case.
However, I thought about thathonor and about what does that
mean for me?
Because we do this and we don'tlook for honors and awards and
(35:18):
what it means for me is thatbecause I have always been
instilled with the, there'snothing I can't do as long as
I'm a good person and I respectpeople you know that's
prerequisite there's nothingthat I can't do.
That means I have always pushedhard and tried to be.
(35:39):
I know I can take the hits.
I'm quite resilient.
I know that I can speak forpeople who don't often have a
voice and that I have a moralobligation to do that because I
can and I've put myself in aposition in my life where me and
my business partner at Upflowwe're very strong on standing up
when we need to stand up andtake positions that are
important.
(35:59):
So I've had lots of sticks andstones in my life.
Doing these hard things doesn'tcome without hate or, you know,
you're breaking things thatpeople are very comfortable
having as they are and you'rethreatening strong forts there.
When you're asking to storm orstorming castles, people don't
(36:19):
like it very much.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Well, it doesn't allow them to sit back and have
a cup of tea when they'restorming.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That's right, and a perfect word for themselves.
So when I go into those roles,like global high visibility
roles, and I change things andact as myself, I have had quite
a bit of hate and pushback andwe see that lots of political,
female political leaders aroundthe world get a lot of heat and
regardless of your politicalspectrum or where you sit, the
(36:45):
kind of human insults andbehaviors that happen are just
intolerable anyway.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
So I've had that and and, by the way, I agree, I
fully agree regardless ofwhatever side of the aisle
you're on politically.
It's never about the person.
It should always be about theissue.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, and I think if people knew that when I hear
that I look at them, not theperson they're trying to put
down, anyway.
So all of those sticks andstones that you've had and you
get to hear it made me think,not that it was worth it because
it's always been worth it, allthe cool stuff that's happened,
(37:27):
but just that maybe being seenis really nice, that it
validates it a little bit that Ishould continue, and because
it's really tiring too.
You know it takes a lot ofenergy and you lot, you give up
a lot.
But that really made me think.
Now I can be more bold, whichis pretty scary for people who
know me I can be.
Oh god, I thought is prettyscary for people who know me.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I can be more bold.
Look out world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh God, I thought I was unstoppable before, but look
at me now.
But it means that I can nowstep forward stronger and feel
validated a bit.
Yeah, it's the right way.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And what would you say your superpower is?
We know we all know this thatwhen we're working in our
strengths or our zone of genius,you know we'll call it what you
like that we just are much moreeffective.
We were able to get further.
What is that for you?
I mean, I've got some, somethoughts, but love to hear that
from you.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I love to hear your thoughts.
I think for me, my superpoweris I lift things up.
So people think let's solvethis small problem, like so in
New Zealand, let's have a womenempowerment group.
And I think no, let's do global, let's change the global thing.
Why are we mucking around?
Let's go big now.
People can only say no, and whocares?
(38:33):
It doesn't hurt.
So I think I have a strengthand think really big and bold
and why should it not be us?
And we can do it.
I think I am really good atseeing strengths in people.
So in the science space there'slots of introverts and I think
God, there's golden leadershipand introverts.
(38:54):
That because the way that weoperate they never get realised.
But we need that in the.
So I think I think I'm quitegood at seeing individuals and
what they could bring and tryingto make places for them to
operate.
So I personally love mypersonal.
Why is to help others achievethings that they never thought
(39:15):
were possible?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
that's a pretty cool thing to be a you know to have
as your, as your, why that'spretty powerful it really fills
me up, like the people I workwith every day.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
I think, god, the world needs to see the magic
that you have, and how do I kickthe barriers and walls down to
make that happen?
So that's really fulfilling forme.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, this is not a question I thought I would ask,
but I kind of feel drawn to it.
What about politics for you?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
oh, you are not the first person to ask me that?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
No, that doesn't surprise me.
I feel like I'm probably thehundredth person to ask you that
.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'd be the Sonny Bill of politics.
I have off the bench, highimpact, short-lived career
because I don't think even aBlair for Mayor campaign.
Some of my friends have triedto start up.
I think I'm way too intolerantof so.
If I was sitting down listeningto people talking about the
(40:09):
long-term plan and listening toBarry from whatever, I'd be like
boo, I don't care, Barry, seeyou later.
So I don't think that I couldkeep it down enough to be
successful in politics I want tosupport.
I think politics have a reallystrong place and I want to
support people in those rolesthat do that.
(40:30):
But I want change to happenfaster and I can't do it inside
that system.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you can impact change
globally in a way that willimpact your home country better
anyway.
Possibly and a stat that Ilearned literally a week ago and
I can't believe it's taken meall this time in my life to know
this is that 90% of the worldlive in the Northern Hemisphere.
So if we are talking about ourissues down here, and even if we
(40:59):
include all of South Americaand all of Southern Africa and
all of Australia and New Zealand, it's still only 10% of the
world.
So have an impact globally,because that's what has the
impact right.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And it's really interesting.
You say that because when Ireceived that we on United
Nations Award last year and wewent up and they flew us up to
New York and we were part of,you know, a whole week of
climate talks with the UN and onpanels and the solutions that
we're bringing to the table, Iwas there thinking, oh my god,
this group is you know thepeople I'm going to meet you
(41:32):
know, massive like the Gates'sand all the the big names
they're going to be like look atthis country, bumpkin with some
of this, the cool number eightwire stuff they're doing down
there.
No, what really resonated for mein that was people loved the
work that we were doing.
It is right at the front.
Some of the smart work we'redoing in New Zealand and in the
(41:53):
geothermal space is leadingthinking and it's right on the
world's edge of forward thinking.
We just don't have the marketsupport and the funds to really
oxygenate the things we're doingand lift it up in a big,
visible way.
So the thing that I learnedfrom that was we aren't
different to them, we are thesame and we just don't have that
(42:17):
access and we need to get it.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Have you ever suffered imposter syndrome in
these roles?
Or did you early on and thenyou started to realise hang on a
second we're actually worldleading.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I'm a world leader.
I just need to own this.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I don't mean that in a big headed way did you have a
bit of almost like an awakeningthat?
Hang on a second.
Why am I feeling or did youjust never feel imposter
syndrome in this stuff?
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I think I have moments of, oh my God, I'm
speaking at the UN.
I'm from Tohara College,massive and, I think, bizarre
the world difference where I amand the influence that I'm
having.
I don't think I've held that onto myself, as I'm less than I
have always, and I think this isdue to my upbringing and my
family, and so when I've stoodon stage and I've spoken to
(43:02):
thousands of people, I'm theperson with the mic in front of
people.
I have never felt in trouble orworried about what I'm going to
say or do, because I don'tpretend and I will never pretend
I know something I don't.
I will have opinions, but Iwill never try and be something
else.
So I can never be caught out,and that's what I've always been
(43:24):
like and I can take the hit.
I can be wrong.
That's the other thing.
I'm not scared of being wrongand I love to be challenged, and
so when I stand up and be me,I'm being me and I'm okay with
that, and so I don't feel likean imposter at being me, yeah,
and so I don't feel like animposter at being me, yeah, and
that's how I sort of deal withit because it comes from a deep
(43:45):
place of knowing you, of knowingyourself yeah, and having trust
that, whatever happens, youknow, my dad always said I don't
care if you're you know theprime minister or if you're
pumping gas at a petrol station,but you have to work hard and
do the best you can and whereveryou are.
And I know that tomorrow, ifthis all falls over and I need
(44:07):
to go and pump gas, I'll turn uptomorrow and pump gas without
any care or concern and I'll dothe best I can.
So that's all part of it, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I'm actually getting slightly teary as I hear you say
that, because my father said avery similar thing.
I think the expression was Greg, if you want to be a drain
layer, and I don't know where hegot that from, because I'm not
very practical but if you wantto be a, drain layer, be a drain
layer, be the best drain layerthat there is, and it's just
great.
(44:38):
And more kids need to hear thatfrom not even just their parents
, but from people around them,absolutely, not even just their
parents, but from people aroundthem.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
You know, like it's yeah, absolutely, and I think
that's a real fundamental corepart of myself.
I carry around, as you probablydo, greg, and I do know also,
in those moments where I'mstanding up and I'm being me,
that others don't have thatluxury and privilege and that
I'm standing there and I shouldtake it because I have a moral
responsibility.
If I can, I should.
And other women seeing me atthe front, other people in
(45:08):
different spaces seeing me atthe front, it's really important
.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
And so I should do it Totally, I totally, totally,
totally agree, changing tacksslightly.
How do you sort of fill yourtanks, like do you take time out
, do you exercise, do you readbooks, you listen to music, like
how do you?
Because you're busy, right.
So how do you?
How do you kind of recharge?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
yeah, it's.
It's funny because everyonesays what about balance?
And balance is a misnomer, yeah, that people use to beat
themselves up with.
So either you're failing athome or you're failing at life.
I think that the most importantthing is that you build a life
where you are able to focus onwhat you need to focus on at the
time.
So if my family needs me, I canbe there, or if my work needs
(45:50):
me, I can be there, and I thinkthat's the thing that I try and
work hard for.
I don't have children, so thatgives me a lot of time and space
.
I feel an to because I don'thave children.
I'm very looked after niece andnephew who I get to take to
Disneyland and cool stuff likethat because I don't have to buy
shoes for them or feed them.
I have a moral obligation to dosomething, because I have that
(46:14):
time and space to do somethinggood in the world for
everybody's children, becauseyou know I have that, and so I
get filled up by stepping intothose spaces and getting the
privilege of doing that.
I mean, I enjoy day drinkingwith my friends and I think I
may have some superpowers inthat space.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Your problem-solving ability in those spaces?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah and I'm a really rubbish golfer, but I'm really
starting to enjoy that playinggolf because it takes me out
into nature and I can do somephysical things.
So for me, I mean I love what Ido.
It fills me up.
Every day, the team I work withfill me up so I don't feel
empty.
And do you read I love?
Yeah, I love to read.
Yeah, I'm like one of thosepeople that I'll read a novel in
(47:00):
two days and just consume.
So I've got to be careful.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
And so it's novels, it's fiction, it's escape.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I find it hard to do work-ish or personal journey
stuff outside of work.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
One final question Is theresomething that you have quite a
strong belief in that is maybe alittle counterculture and very
few people believe it?
It's an interesting question Isthere something that you have
quite a strong belief in that ismaybe a little counterculture
and very few people believe it?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
It's an interesting question.
I think my political statementabout politicians are probably
not the leaders that will leadus through the change is
probably goes against the graina little bit.
I also think that men need tolead the charge for gender
equality yeah, totally, and Iwork really hard on that in
space, and that Ayo Mō is theperson that brings that up in
(47:48):
spaces and challenges people.
I think also I have a strongview about Western science and
mātauranga.
That's indigenous knowledgefrom a that's a word, the Māori
word for indigenous knowledge,for Māori, mā tōranga and
thinking about how otherknowledge systems have a place
(48:09):
beside Western science and abouthow Western science isn't the
only way to think about theworld, and not just from a
spiritual sort of view, but froman actual understanding and
operating in the world space.
In Western science we think wehave to know individuals seek
(48:31):
the edge of knowledge and pushreally hard on that edge, and we
know that robust challenge to ahypothesis is what makes it
real and stand over time.
Is that challenge?
Well, if we could get ourscientists to be challenged from
a matauranga even a wholeknowledge system that's outside
(48:51):
and if they open their brain tothat challenge, maybe our
solutions would in fact be morerobust, yeah yeah, I, I
completely agree.
And so for me, I've beenthinking about that space for a
little while, and how does thathappen?
And challenging Western scienceto allow the space for
(49:14):
something completely outside ofthe framework.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Well, I am honestly just so impressed by you and I
really do hope that you keepthinking along those lines and
being an agitator in some of therooms and the boardrooms and
things that you're in globally.
It's been a huge honour to beable to chat to you today.
You're super busy and it's beenquite hard to get our calendars
(49:38):
to align.
I think you may have even gotCOVID there at one point to get
our calendars to align.
I think you may have even gotCOVID there at one point, but
I'm going to go away over theweekend and do a bit of research
on Thermus aquaticus andactually look at finding out a
little bit about that.
So, honestly, thank you, andy.
It's been an absolute pleasurechatting to you today and thank
God, we've got people and womenlike you in our world kind of
leading the charge on some stuff.
(49:59):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Kia ora Greg and kia ora Koso, and it's been a great
chat and I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team
behind you, being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
money.
I'm not scared of being wrong and I love to be
challenged, and so when I standup and be me, I'm being me and
I'm okay with that, and so Idon't feel like an imposter at
being me.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
My guest today is Andrea Blair, or known to
everybody as Andy.
Forbes magazine actuallyawarded you the title of one of
the five female founders leadingthe charge for a sustainable
future.
You're a board member of GlobalWoman, and I'm not actually
including all of them.
There's more, but we'd be hereall day.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
You know, my dad always said I don't care if
you're the prime minister or ifyou're pumping gas at a petrol
station, but you have to workhard and do the best you can and
wherever you are.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hey everybody, it's Greg Sheehan.
Welcome to my podcast, whereyou will hear from a range of
guests, including those from thestartup world and those that
have had incredibly interestinglives and some stories to tell.
I would really appreciate it ifyou could hit the follow button
and share this amongst yourfriends, but, as you know, time
is limited, so let's get on withit and hear from our next guest
(01:05):
.
I want to tell you a little bitabout desk work.
Desk work is your offshoringoption.
If you want to save around 50%of your total headcount cost for
equivalent talent acrossaccounting, marketing, sales,
your operations or your admin,then check out Deskwork.
Honestly, if I was looking tostart an accounting firm again,
(01:28):
it would be a no-brainer for meto use Deskwork.
I've used offshoring teamsbefore in the past.
I got past my skepticism onbeing able to do it and it was
so phenomenally successful.
Go have a look at desk-workcobackslash, greg, and book
yourself a free discovery callto learn more about it.
(01:49):
Better still, mention my nameand get yourself some discounts.
Check it out.
Now back to the show.
My guest today is Andrea Blair,or known to everybody in.
Well, actually I was going tosay New Zealand, but in the
broader global world as Andy.
Andy, welcome.
It's a real honour actually tobe able to speak to you today.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Kia ora Greg.
Honour to be here too.
I enjoy a microphone and a chat, so I'm looking forward to it.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yeah, well, listen, I almost don't know where to
start.
Today, I was looking at youraccolades and I'm going to read
through some of them, just as wekind of get into this and I'm
not actually including all ofthem, there's more, but we'd be
here all day because you havedone so many things.
So and these are not innecessarily any order as well so
, forbes magazine actuallyawarded you the title of one of
(02:38):
the five female founders leadingthe charge for a sustainable
future.
You are an immediate pastpresident of the International
Geothermal Association.
So that's the InternationalGeothermal Association.
You're a board member of GlobalWoman.
You are a winner of the weEmpower UN Sustainable
Development Goals Challenge andjust recently and it's very,
(03:01):
very cool to see you wereawarded an Officer of the New
Zealand Order of Merit in thislatest King's Birthday Honours
list.
Congrats on that, too.
Unbelievable.
How did you get to be here,though?
Tell us a little bit about yourearly origin story and where
you grew up.
Did you always imagine that youwould be in a place like you
are now?
What did growing up look likefor you?
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, thanks for the list.
And it's always interestingwhen you hear the list because
you're like that's reallyimpressive, wonder who that
person is.
And I think the commonalitybetween all of those things is
that I'm an agitator and I amgoing on to the Global Woman
Board.
I asked them what could I bring, because they're super
impressive woman at the tablethere you, teresa Getting and
(03:45):
and other other leaders which Irespect hugely and they said
because we need an agitator.
And I think that talks to someof those, that sort of
recognition, which is also verystrange to me.
I think you just try and operatein the world and push at places
where you feel strongly andthese things come along the
(04:08):
wayside.
I think my backstory.
Where did I come from?
So, taupo, nui Atea.
This is where I am today andwhere I grew up.
I went to Tauhara College,proud Tauhara College, small
school in Taupo.
I think I was very muchinfluenced by heavy engagement
(04:28):
with Te Ao Māori during myexperience in growing up, which
has actually had a hugeimpression on the way that I
look at the world and how Iparticipate in the world.
Our Māori teacher at Te Ao HaraCollege was Te Ururoa Flavell,
who was the head of the MāoriParty for a period of time to
college was Te Ururoa Flavell,who was the head of the Māori
Party for a period of time, andso that's had a real influence
(04:52):
on me and how I operate.
I've always been a nerd, so I'ma deep geek.
I'm really curious about theworld.
I want to know stuff.
I'm the annoying person who'swhy does that work, how does
that work?
Person and want to challengethings.
So I started my career in myscience foray doing a Bachelor
of Science in Technology focusedon forestry science big sort of
sector around where I grew upand worked in that space and
(05:15):
then, through working in such astrong, male-dominated industry
like forestry, which Ipassionately love, I felt really
different from what thestructure and how things are
supposed to be, and that's why Iactually used the name Andy.
Which is quite interesting isthat at the time back then I'm
(05:37):
really old, so it's some timeago.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
You're not that old.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
People, would You're not?
Speaker 2 (05:41):
that old.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Just feels that way sometimes, Greg Tell me about it
that I wasn't getting responsesto my emails, and so I changed
my name to Andy, which is with aY on purpose, and that changed
the sort of interaction Istarted having when people
didn't see me, and so that'swhen I adopted Andy, and in that
forestry science place I'm adeep geek, I love all that sort
(06:06):
of stuff I then was maderedundant in the forestry
industry, a role that I wasdoing, and I thought you know,
I'm just going to walk out ofthis room and I'm going to walk
into the tea room and look inthe paper back when you used to
look in the paper for jobs, andI'm going to look in there and
see what I think is cool.
And I'm going to look in thereand see what I think is cool and
(06:26):
I'm just going to picksomething.
And there were two roles that Ithought that I could do and I
would love to do, which was theoperations manager of a super
yacht building company, becauseI was very good at operational
stuff, and then the 2IC for KiwiExperience, which is the
tourism product here in NewZealand, and I managed to get
the Kiwi Experience role, and soI was in Kiwi Experience for a
(06:50):
number of years five years, Ithink it was and was the acting
general manager at the end ofthat time for Kiwi Experience
and I learned a lot aboutleadership.
So everyone sort of thinks well, you're a geek and you went to
tourism.
How is that?
You know, that must have beenstrange, and I would say I
learnt big lessons aboutleadership in my role at Kiwi
(07:13):
Experience.
They had about 75 staff at thetime and quite a variety of
people.
But also if you sit at thefront of a bus and you've got 50
people sitting behind you fromall different nations, driver
guides, compelling people towalk through rivers to do
something, that's leadership andhow do you manage those
(07:33):
situations.
So I feel like that was a realformative leadership space for
me.
Then I became the CEO of askydiving operation, which is a
huge story.
Became the CEO of a skydivingoperation which is a huge story
and as you can see, I'm notboundaried by different
industries and did that role fora period of time.
And then it didn't work out forme in that space and I took a
(07:57):
year off and I trained full timeto do the coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
I saw that.
It's just super impressive.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
I know and you know.
The funny part, greg, is, whenI told people I was doing that,
not one of my friends said, wow,that's crazy.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
They were all oh, yeah, okay and give people some
color for what the coast tocoast is, because there are
there are a number of people whomight be listening to this, who
are not in New Zealand andAotearoa, who may not know what
the coast-to-coast is.
Give them a sense of what itlooks like.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah, so it's a massive physical challenge.
At the time it was one of thepro enduro sport multi-sport
events in the world.
So all the professionalathletes in multi-sport events
would come and do this race.
The coast-to-coast, which isthe west coast of the South
Island of New Zealand to theeast coast of the South Island
of New Zealand and that's abouta 273 kilometre event which has
(08:53):
like 60 kilometres of whitewaterrafting, had a 50 kilometre
mountain run over the Alps.
You know it's like ridiculous,it was, it's ridiculous and so
it's a massive physicalchallenge which, you know, I
didn't say I'll do a halfmarathon, I said I'll do the
coast to coast.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I'll just run across the South Island mountains and
nuts.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
And that sort of feeds into my.
I could always do what I wantedto do and I just had to work
hard.
And so I did a year off and Idid the, trained really hard, I
lost lots of weight, workedreally hard and did the event.
I did not finish the event,which is a god damn.
I have to go back and do it nowagain.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
How far away were you finishing?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was like I got severe cramp on the mountain run
and got pulled off within acouple of kilometres of the
finish.
So hurt like I got severe crampon the mountain run and got
pulled off within a couple ofkilometers of the finish.
So hurtful, hurtful in a deepplace.
That failure of that to me wasa really big mental thing I had
to work through as well.
But, more importantly, I'm sogutted because I have to go back
and do it again now becausethat's the hurtful thing, right.
(10:01):
So at the end of that year andafter the event, I started my
journey into the geothermalindustry.
So there was a role that came upat GNS science, which is a
government owned researchorganization in New Zealand
based on earth sciences, and arole came up in there to be the
(10:22):
business development manager tolook after geothermal
hydrogeology and microbiology.
And I thought, cool.
I mean, I love science, I'm adeep geek, but I don't want to
put a lab coat on and do thehard work.
I just want to talk about thecool stuff, I want to enable it
and see it in the world.
So that was really my first stepinto geothermal and where I
(10:44):
really found the people and theplace I wanted to be in, and I
was in GNS at GNS for about 10years and met the most amazing
people industrial gap in theworld between these amazing
(11:07):
scientists and brains that aresolving really cool things and
actually operating out in theworld so commercial operators
and businesses thinking there'ssome cool pieces here that need
to join together and operate inthe real world, and there was
nothing in the middle thatbridged between those two spaces
.
And that's where me and mybusiness partner, co-founder
(11:32):
Paul, found the gap for Upflow,and so I traveled around the
world.
I was setting up contracts inall different places around the
world.
I could see that this was aglobal issue in the geothermal
sector and that was the premisewe built Upflow on, which is the
bridge between deep science andcommercial reality we started
that seven years ago.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
So that's my journey to.
Yeah.
I mean, there's just so manydifferent threads I sort of am
keen to pull on there.
But if you look at your entryinto GNS and then that broader
geothermal world, was that justa massive kind of almost.
I don't want to use the wordawakening, but I'll use the word
awakening like a sense of whatpossibilities existed out there
globally for somebody like youand with your brain for me,
(12:14):
being a part of that communitywas really transformative,
because I got to see how thisspace and this proposition to
the world actually really didtransform communities.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So going out into Central America and seeing how
these projects could offer notjust energy but solutions for
some of the societalenvironmental issues that are
going on as well, so as anoffering and competitive against
, you know, wind and fossilfuels and solar and other things
, it just could offer so muchand you could see transformation
(12:50):
in ways that are more than justdollars out in the world.
I also found a community ofpeople that I really enjoy being
around and being part of.
Geothermal is a place where thesame sort of skills you can
work in oil and gas and you knowthat industry and get paid lots
of money.
So people are choosinggeothermal because there's more
(13:10):
than money.
There's this ethical thing weall feel about doing good for
the planet.
So there's this connection wehave globally.
But there are some reallycomplex factors to it that mean
you have to be really smart andyou have to be in a team of
smart people to solve, and soit's a really smart open.
Have to be in a team of smartpeople to solve, and so it's a
really smart, open communitythat's doing good for the world,
but also it's a really smallcommunity, so there's only a few
(13:31):
hundred thousand peopleglobally that really are
directly employed by geothermal.
So it's a place where you canhave impact.
So someone from Tohara Collegein Taupo in New Zealand could
become the president of theworld geothermal base in the
Netherlands.
Is you know, that's not anopportunity that's afforded to
you in bigger spaces.
(13:52):
So it's a place where you canhave impact.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
It's actually a phenomenal area and so give us
some sense of shape, ofgeothermal sort of globally Like
have we got any idea what sortof percentage it makes up of
total energy production?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Yeah, it's a very small.
It's very, very small.
It's in the niche category.
We are in the small, fewpercent sort of space.
However, it's really a strongoffering with respect to it's
not influenced by atmosphericconditions, so you don't need
wind, you don't need to blow,you don't need a lot of sun, you
(14:29):
don't need those sorts ofthings.
But it offers baseload energy,which means that it's always on,
it doesn't turn off, and it'sthose additional things that are
important, so it can offer youenergy and electricity.
But also a geothermal isbasically rain falling down onto
the ground, percolating intothe ground and going across the
(14:50):
hot sort of you know, the deeperyou go, the hotter it gets
right Going across that hot sortof space and then coming to the
surface.
And as those fluids come to thesurface, they bring with it the
minerals and the gases that areunderground up to the top, and
so what comes out the top is notwater, it's like a brine, a
(15:11):
brine sort of thing.
Yeah, so inside of that brinethere are gases which are useful
to us, there are minerals, suchas lithium and all the critical
minerals that we need for oursolar panels and our electric
cars and all of those things,and so there's a lot of work
going on on how to usegeothermal in a broader sense.
(15:32):
So mining that fluid forminerals means that maybe we
don't need to have open castmines for lithium and their
lithium projects globally, andthat is a by-product of
electricity.
So it's not a that or this,it's a electricity and minerals
and other things.
It's a cool prospect.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's a very cool prospect and you know, I'm
imagining not all parts of theworld are sort of naturally
endowed with the ability to havegeothermal.
Is it places like new zealand,where we've got, you know,
relatively sort of I don't know,no scientists, certainly no
geothermal scientists We've gotmud pools and sort of a lot of
volcanic activity here, is it,you know, only in those areas
(16:17):
where you can have geothermal orjust about anywhere, as long as
you've got rainfall and thenwater bubbling back up through
the aquifers and things?
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Traditionally we've always been in those really hot
spaces.
So if we think about the Ringof fire and other tectonic plate
boundaries like the Africanrift and other locations
globally, we think of geothermalbecause we think of hot springs
and geysers and all those sortsof things, the natural
expressions of geothermal.
However, everywhere in theworld you go down, it'll get
(16:47):
hotter and it's actually aboutthe cost to access that heat.
That is the barrier and how toaccess that heat.
That is the barrier and how toutilize that heat energy.
So there are a lot oftechnologies now focused on
going deeper, not requiring somuch fluid being in those other
places.
So geothermal everywhere is aplay that's being worked on in
(17:08):
the industry and what that meansis lower temperature places,
like in New Zealand, we thinkthat topo volcanic zone, from
like Ruapehu all the way out toWhite Island.
There's a space where thegeology allows for those really
high temperature fields, whichmeans it doesn't cost much to
get to so we can produceelectricity.
But there are lower temperatureareas now that we're
(17:31):
investigating where we canproduce electricity.
But there are lower temperatureareas now that we're
investigating where we canutilize that energy directly for
bathing and greenhouses and allsorts of other things.
So the traditional hightemperature locations on those
tectonic settings, yes, that'swhat you see now, but it's
broadening out into those otherspaces with new technologies and
utilization Also.
(17:52):
Another factor to it isgeothermal environments
themselves, so warm groundcreates.
So we've got a project wherewe're using microbes that come
from these geothermalenvironments and they're called
extremophiles, like extreme likenowadays X-philes we call it.
Why those are important thoseextreme environments where it's
(18:14):
high temperature or hightoxicity or weird chemistry.
Acidity means thatmicroorganisms that live there
have to have really weirdadaptions in their bodies to
allow them to live in thesenon-livable spaces and those
adaptions are really good forbiotech applications.
So one of the gold standard wecall it the gold standard x
(18:36):
files is a bug from theyellowstone national park called
thermos aquaticus.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm going to try and not get too sciencey sounds like
something out of transformers,but it sounds super exciting
thermos aquaticus I know it's asuper cool one and you actually
have heard of it, you'veactually probably used it.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
So thermos aquaticus in I know it's a super cool one
and you actually have heard ofit, you've actually probably
used it.
So thermus aquaticus, like 60years ago, was used.
The enzyme from this littlemicroorganism from this
geothermal location was used tohelp with DNA replication.
So remember back in the daywhen you watch crime scene
movies and they're like we'vegot the DNA and let's do the map
and you're the electrophoresisgel and you see the lines all
(19:14):
match up and you're like he wasthe murderer.
So the ability to make thattechnology work came from this
enzyme in Yellowstone, becauseto pull DNA apart you have to
have really high temperature, so70 plus degrees, and no
organism living in the normalliving environment could have an
enzyme that could survive it,but Thermus aquaticus could.
(19:36):
So they pulled it out, put itin and they used it for PCR
technology, which is in that oneand that's also the testing
recently for COVID used PCRtechnology.
So it's from a geothermalmicroorganism that we used for
that biotech.
Our project that we've got justgot some funding for is we're
(19:58):
taking co2 and methane wastegases and we're feeding them to
the.
A couple of microorganismswe've found in a geothermal hot
spring in new zealand that eatthose gases and they make single
cell protein.
So we're making food from wastegases using these microbes.
So super cool technology that'soffering us solutions for some
(20:22):
of those really big globalproblems, and we can find them
in these geothermal environments.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
And you know this is because this is actually, as you
said earlier, this is arelatively small percentage of
global energy generation, butyou've actually got this ability
to essentially do miningwithout mining, without
extraction.
Well, you might be looking atextraction, but you don't have
to sort of open up a giant youknow hole in the ground to do it
(20:50):
.
You don't have to destroy theenvironment to do it and you can
get access to these sorts ofelements that it feels like you
might be on the cusp, as anindustry, of something really
quite profound, because it'sheavily sustainable and yet it's
giving us access to these newforms of science that we're so
desperately looking for andgrowing the energy base which we
(21:12):
all need as a planet as well.
Speaker 1 (21:14):
that feels pretty exciting, and I don't know if
there's, you know, many otherareas of energy that would say
they've got that confluence ofthose sorts of factors that's
why I love it, because it feelslike a place of solutions yeah,
and and you're right, thosecritical minerals and if you
think about geopoliticalsecurity, yeah, and of supply.
(21:36):
So it doesn't mean that in newzealand we have to have the
biggest export of lithium orwhatever.
But to know that in our countrywe can get our own lithium from
not turning our soil over, thatmeans that in any future trade
discussions you know we're safefrom that sort of risk
(21:56):
associated with that.
And so it's a reallyinteresting supermarket to shop
for solutions in geothermal.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And it's also this really amazing confluence of,
you know, science, the community, business and sustainability
all in one place.
It must give you opportunities,but it must also present some
real challenges at times as well, some super challenges, and I
guess that's what Upflow is allabout, right, like helping
people navigate a lot of thatsort of stuff.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
It's absolutely that.
And when I spoke earlier abouthaving a Te Ao Māori lens across
the world, you think about.
These sort of solutions for theworld have to be broader than
economic.
We need to seek out thoseenvironmental and social and
cultural solutions.
And when we think aboutindigenous world, how they
operate in the world, this isthe lens they use.
(22:48):
And so when I go to COP and Ihear leaders stand up and say we
should be thinking aboutbusiness models that consider
the environment and I think it'salready there and so when we
think about geothermal and youknow we can make electricity,
which is really strongfinancially, then we can also
heat all our homes and ourvillage.
(23:09):
We can also provide employmentthrough these really
significantly important places.
It just offers a lot.
And when you go to places I'vebeen to many places where I've
seen this in place, sogeothermal often is in these
rural locations near mountainsor villages and there's tends to
be high you know there are realbenefits for communities that
(23:29):
live amongst geothermallocations.
I've seen it, a project I'veseen in El Salvador, a place
that you think why would Itravel to.
Like El Salvador sounds reallydangerous and you know why would
I go there.
But when I went there to speakat an event, I went to visit one
power station and they had setup a business that took the
cooling water some water fromthe cooling tower of their
(23:52):
geothermal electricity powerstation and they'd set up a
business where they'd hired 500local women only women.
Because the leader therethought if you lift women up,
they'll take everyone aroundthem with them, so it's about
prosperity of local village.
They created a cacao and acoffee plantation, commercial
(24:13):
plantation on site, using theleftover water from the cooling
tower, and have this commercialbusiness, which is sustainable.
They then thought okay, so now,if there's a lot of women here
and women are the primarycaregivers, we should set up,
you know, a creche so their kidsare safe and they can feel good
about coming.
And then they said then theysaid well, okay, why don't we
(24:34):
support the community by settingup a school?
So they have on-site a schoolcalled, which is like the window
to the world, and every daythey have one school from the
surrounding villages that comeand learn first world robotics.
They have a full-size kitchenwhere they learn about food and
(24:54):
nutrition.
You know they do recoding andit's about giving them
aspirations outside of wherethey currently are because 90%
of the homes are dirt floors.
So the sort of enabling thatgeothermal can do in these sort
of communities, you know it'snot really well spoken about but
it's hugely transformative andyou see leadership in places
(25:18):
where you don't hear loudleadership visibly, you know in
the Western world, and so for methat's a real example.
We can hold up and move aroundthe world.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
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(26:11):
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Let's get back to the show.
Do you see, through yourinvolvement you know, for
example, with the InternationalGeothermal Association and even
just with you know with GlobalWoman the possibilities that
exist for us to solve our bigproblems globally, like we've
got some massive issues globally.
Do you get encouraged by yourinvolvement with groups like
(26:34):
these and just the possibilitiesthat you know that present that
?
We're always on the cusp oflearning something new.
Maybe that can help solve ourproblems.
Do these groups give you thatsense of you know this is
possible.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
If you could meet all the amazing women and climate
tech people I get to meet, you'dfeel very good about where the
world's going.
So I just think the structuresin which we're trying to operate
are really hard and the biasesthat exist make things really
difficult, but the source ofsolutions and the brains and the
smarts and the lenses that arethere are there.
(27:08):
They are there.
It's just how do we enable themso being able to look at
problems differently, thinkingabout diversity across those big
places and boardrooms.
You know the problems that havethe heads that have created the
problem are not going to solvethe problem.
So how do we create the spacefor them to participate?
I think that's the key rollover.
(27:31):
But what I do know is there aresome amazing people ready and
trying and they just need someenablement to get them going.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah.
What's been the hardest thingon this journey so far?
In whatever roles that you'replaying Because you've
definitely got a full calendarall the time and you're involved
in multiple things what's beenthe toughest part of this
journey to date?
Speaker 1 (27:53):
A couple of things, personally and a professional.
There are a couple of thingsthat have been really difficult.
First, talk about the in theprofessional space and trying to
make climate tech and solutionsreal in a place where
everyone's screaming for how dowe solve this climate thing?
We need it now.
Hearing all the rhetoric,hearing all the people stand up
(28:14):
and saying where is it, and thennot having the support to make
it real.
That's really hard.
And the problem is around oxygen, and by oxygen I mean money,
and people say things like it'sreally difficult.
And it's not difficult, it'sleadership.
People can make decisions andmake change happen, and it's so
hard to watch leaders not makethose choices.
(28:36):
And I don't just meangovernment, because in all
honesty, I think governmentaren't leaders in change.
I think they are sticks andcarrots to help change.
But leader sits outside ofgovernment Leadership and good
ideas sit outside of government,and so how do we change outside
of government leadership andgood ideas outside of government
?
And so how do we change outsideof government leadership to
make change hard choices for thefuture?
(29:00):
So when I think about money andI say that, it's because the
solutions that we're offeringwith respect to climate and
environment and diversity don'tfit the norm, because the norm
created the space of where weare now, so these solutions are
never going to fit that.
So when you go to try and findinvestment and you turn up and
(29:22):
these groups say we want toinvest, so when you go to try
and find investment and you turnup and these groups say we want
to invest in diversity, we wantto invest in climate.
However, what that really meansto us who are trying to get
that investment is you have totick all the boxes of every
other business you're competingwith and you have to demonstrate
the burden of achieving all ofthose climate goals or diversity
goals as well.
(29:42):
Yeah, so there's no actualchange to the system the
paradigms yeah and so it's sucha massive burden.
We fund managers and people wholead this we have to re-educate.
Every time we talk to them wehave to.
Then I have to explaineverything about geothermal
technology and about why ittakes so long and why it's
capital intensive up front andwhat that means.
(30:05):
Also, the base case is not zero.
So people say you have to beatthe base case.
In our world in the energysector, the base case is against
fossil fuels.
Yeah, and fossil fuel subsidiesare massive, like $7 trillion a
year subsidising fossil fueloperations to be profitable and
(30:29):
operate.
So if we are basing our basecase in New Zealand at something
like $450 million a year, go tofossil fuel industries to
support them, to give us lowprices for our fuel and all
sorts of other things.
Support them to give us lowprices for our fuel and all
sorts of other things.
So when you're doing the basecase for a geothermal project
versus the norm price, peopleare paying for things.
(30:49):
That's an inflated.
It's not zero.
New Zealand's giving money tothat other side of the ledger.
And so how do we ask people orshow people when this investment
that you're making iscomparative and also that cost
there?
How do we allow for the cost ofthe environment and the true
(31:12):
cost of resource use and tosociety and the burden future
burden versus the base case.
I think that's a really hardplace to talk into because
people go, yeah, yeah, yeahsounds good, but can't see it,
and so therefore it's hard toget over the line.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's like trying to bring any hard change when
you're up against the paradigmsof the norm and whatever the
norm is, whether that's even inmedicine or medical research,
and you've got peer review whichkeeps everything in sort of a
lockstep.
It means that nothing is trulythat innovative because it's
kind of all done in sync witheverybody else, so there's
(31:49):
nothing radical that comes inand tests it and challenges it,
and I think that's true of anyarea of innovation.
And in fact there's a quote Ithink I've used this on the
podcast before and I think itwas George Bernard Shaw and it
an old quote but it's that.
No, you know, all progressrelies on the unreasonable man,
and let's just impose woman onthat as well.
Like it's, all progress relieson you being unreasonable,
(32:12):
because by default that's howyou get progress, because of
everything everybody thinks it'sreasonable.
It's not that innovative, it'snot that.
So it's very challenging in anindustry like geothermal to
break outside of the paradigmsLike incredibly hard.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
It's really tough and it's also the same in the
gender space, the equality space.
It's really hard to pushthrough because you can't ask
people just to feel bad about athing Like because we have
society built on these rules andwe're asking for your brain to
push against those rules and thebias is so subtle, that's an
(32:49):
institutionalized, we don't eventest it.
Yeah.
So things like why do we workat 8 30 to 5 pm day?
Who said that was okay?
That doesn't work for mums orpeople who are looking after
their extended family.
Why do we just accept thosebiases that keep one part of
society not participating fully?
(33:11):
So I think challenging thestructure in which you're
operating and the biases thatexist are all part of change and
leadership.
I think everybody thinks thatyou have to be popular to be a
leader, but I think leadershipmeans that you need to step
through the scary spaces.
And lots of people say to mesolving gender equality or
(33:34):
diversity in our business isreally hard.
Well, it's not.
Actually, it's one singledecision of leadership to say,
okay, we're only going to hirewomen this year and people say,
oh, that's a reverse diversityor something.
And it's actually not.
If you look at the Human RightsAct.
It says that you have to lookat the results, not the process.
(33:54):
So if you are continuing tooperate as you are and
continuing to support the biasesthat are keeping people out,
you are actually already againsthuman rights.
Unless you put something in tochange the result for people and
so you know it's a leadershipcall you just stand up and say
it's hard and I'm doing it, andI'm changing it today, and then
(34:17):
take the hits.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Yeah that's right.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Who's going to say it's unfair when it's fairness
that you're fighting for and, asyou say, you know that's right
who's going to say it's unfairwhen it's fairness that you're
fighting for?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
and, as you say, you know that's.
That's what leadership is.
It is about making some reallytough calls.
I've talked about this oftenleaders have followers.
If you don't have peoplefollowing, you, you're not,
you're not leading.
You were starting to touch alsoon some personal challenges
that have been hard.
You yeah, yeah, so it's really.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It is very difficult and I thought this about when,
you know, when I received myking's honors list and and to me
it's really, it is verydifficult and I thought this
about when, you know, when Ireceived my King's Honours list
and to me it's really difficultbecause I, my team, is so smart,
they are so smart and Icouldn't do any of what I do
without them and I get held upquite a lot.
(34:56):
And I find it quite difficultbecause, you know, I'm part of a
really strong team who Irespect and I learn every day
from.
I'm not if I call myself ageothermal scientist.
I get so mocked because that isabsolutely not the case.
However, I thought about thathonor and about what does that
mean for me?
Because we do this and we don'tlook for honors and awards and
(35:18):
what it means for me is thatbecause I have always been
instilled with the, there'snothing I can't do as long as
I'm a good person and I respectpeople you know that's
prerequisite there's nothingthat I can't do.
That means I have always pushedhard and tried to be.
(35:39):
I know I can take the hits.
I'm quite resilient.
I know that I can speak forpeople who don't often have a
voice and that I have a moralobligation to do that because I
can and I've put myself in aposition in my life where me and
my business partner at Upflowwe're very strong on standing up
when we need to stand up andtake positions that are
important.
(35:59):
So I've had lots of sticks andstones in my life.
Doing these hard things doesn'tcome without hate or, you know,
you're breaking things thatpeople are very comfortable
having as they are and you'rethreatening strong forts there.
When you're asking to storm orstorming castles, people don't
(36:19):
like it very much.
Speaker 2 (36:21):
Well, it doesn't allow them to sit back and have
a cup of tea when they'restorming.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
That's right, and a perfect word for themselves.
So when I go into those roles,like global high visibility
roles, and I change things andact as myself, I have had quite
a bit of hate and pushback andwe see that lots of political,
female political leaders aroundthe world get a lot of heat and
regardless of your politicalspectrum or where you sit, the
(36:45):
kind of human insults andbehaviors that happen are just
intolerable anyway.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
So I've had that and and, by the way, I agree, I
fully agree regardless ofwhatever side of the aisle
you're on politically.
It's never about the person.
It should always be about theissue.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
Yeah, and I think if people knew that when I hear
that I look at them, not theperson they're trying to put
down, anyway.
So all of those sticks andstones that you've had and you
get to hear it made me think,not that it was worth it because
it's always been worth it, allthe cool stuff that's happened,
(37:27):
but just that maybe being seenis really nice, that it
validates it a little bit that Ishould continue, and because
it's really tiring too.
You know it takes a lot ofenergy and you lot, you give up
a lot.
But that really made me think.
Now I can be more bold, whichis pretty scary for people who
know me I can be.
Oh god, I thought is prettyscary for people who know me.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
I can be more bold.
Look out world.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Oh God, I thought I was unstoppable before, but look
at me now.
But it means that I can nowstep forward stronger and feel
validated a bit.
Yeah, it's the right way.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And what would you say your superpower is?
We know we all know this thatwhen we're working in our
strengths or our zone of genius,you know we'll call it what you
like that we just are much moreeffective.
We were able to get further.
What is that for you?
I mean, I've got some, somethoughts, but love to hear that
from you.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
I love to hear your thoughts.
I think for me, my superpoweris I lift things up.
So people think let's solvethis small problem, like so in
New Zealand, let's have a womenempowerment group.
And I think no, let's do global, let's change the global thing.
Why are we mucking around?
Let's go big now.
People can only say no, and whocares?
(38:33):
It doesn't hurt.
So I think I have a strengthand think really big and bold
and why should it not be us?
And we can do it.
I think I am really good atseeing strengths in people.
So in the science space there'slots of introverts and I think
God, there's golden leadershipand introverts.
(38:54):
That because the way that weoperate they never get realised.
But we need that in the.
So I think I think I'm quitegood at seeing individuals and
what they could bring and tryingto make places for them to
operate.
So I personally love mypersonal.
Why is to help others achievethings that they never thought
(39:15):
were possible?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
that's a pretty cool thing to be a you know to have
as your, as your, why that'spretty powerful it really fills
me up, like the people I workwith every day.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
I think, god, the world needs to see the magic
that you have, and how do I kickthe barriers and walls down to
make that happen?
So that's really fulfilling forme.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, this is not a question I thought I would ask,
but I kind of feel drawn to it.
What about politics for you?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
oh, you are not the first person to ask me that?
Speaker 2 (39:43):
No, that doesn't surprise me.
I feel like I'm probably thehundredth person to ask you that
.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'd be the Sonny Bill of politics.
I have off the bench, highimpact, short-lived career
because I don't think even aBlair for Mayor campaign.
Some of my friends have triedto start up.
I think I'm way too intolerantof so.
If I was sitting down listeningto people talking about the
(40:09):
long-term plan and listening toBarry from whatever, I'd be like
boo, I don't care, Barry, seeyou later.
So I don't think that I couldkeep it down enough to be
successful in politics I want tosupport.
I think politics have a reallystrong place and I want to
support people in those rolesthat do that.
(40:30):
But I want change to happenfaster and I can't do it inside
that system.
Speaker 2 (40:36):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you can impact change
globally in a way that willimpact your home country better
anyway.
Possibly and a stat that Ilearned literally a week ago and
I can't believe it's taken meall this time in my life to know
this is that 90% of the worldlive in the Northern Hemisphere.
So if we are talking about ourissues down here, and even if we
(40:59):
include all of South Americaand all of Southern Africa and
all of Australia and New Zealand, it's still only 10% of the
world.
So have an impact globally,because that's what has the
impact right.
Speaker 1 (41:11):
And it's really interesting.
You say that because when Ireceived that we on United
Nations Award last year and wewent up and they flew us up to
New York and we were part of,you know, a whole week of
climate talks with the UN and onpanels and the solutions that
we're bringing to the table, Iwas there thinking, oh my god,
this group is you know thepeople I'm going to meet you
(41:32):
know, massive like the Gates'sand all the the big names
they're going to be like look atthis country, bumpkin with some
of this, the cool number eightwire stuff they're doing down
there.
No, what really resonated for mein that was people loved the
work that we were doing.
It is right at the front.
Some of the smart work we'redoing in New Zealand and in the
(41:53):
geothermal space is leadingthinking and it's right on the
world's edge of forward thinking.
We just don't have the marketsupport and the funds to really
oxygenate the things we're doingand lift it up in a big,
visible way.
So the thing that I learnedfrom that was we aren't
different to them, we are thesame and we just don't have that
(42:17):
access and we need to get it.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Have you ever suffered imposter syndrome in
these roles?
Or did you early on and thenyou started to realise hang on a
second we're actually worldleading.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I'm a world leader.
I just need to own this.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
I don't mean that in a big headed way did you have a
bit of almost like an awakeningthat?
Hang on a second.
Why am I feeling or did youjust never feel imposter
syndrome in this stuff?
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I think I have moments of, oh my God, I'm
speaking at the UN.
I'm from Tohara College,massive and, I think, bizarre
the world difference where I amand the influence that I'm
having.
I don't think I've held that onto myself, as I'm less than I
have always, and I think this isdue to my upbringing and my
family, and so when I've stoodon stage and I've spoken to
(43:02):
thousands of people, I'm theperson with the mic in front of
people.
I have never felt in trouble orworried about what I'm going to
say or do, because I don'tpretend and I will never pretend
I know something I don't.
I will have opinions, but Iwill never try and be something
else.
So I can never be caught out,and that's what I've always been
(43:24):
like and I can take the hit.
I can be wrong.
That's the other thing.
I'm not scared of being wrongand I love to be challenged, and
so when I stand up and be me,I'm being me and I'm okay with
that, and so I don't feel likean imposter at being me, yeah,
and so I don't feel like animposter at being me, yeah, and
that's how I sort of deal withit because it comes from a deep
(43:45):
place of knowing you, of knowingyourself yeah, and having trust
that, whatever happens, youknow, my dad always said I don't
care if you're you know theprime minister or if you're
pumping gas at a petrol station,but you have to work hard and
do the best you can and whereveryou are.
And I know that tomorrow, ifthis all falls over and I need
(44:07):
to go and pump gas, I'll turn uptomorrow and pump gas without
any care or concern and I'll dothe best I can.
So that's all part of it, Ithink.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
I'm actually getting slightly teary as I hear you say
that, because my father said avery similar thing.
I think the expression was Greg, if you want to be a drain
layer, and I don't know where hegot that from, because I'm not
very practical but if you wantto be a, drain layer, be a drain
layer, be the best drain layerthat there is, and it's just
great.
(44:38):
And more kids need to hear thatfrom not even just their parents
, but from people around them,absolutely, not even just their
parents, but from people aroundthem.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
You know, like it's yeah, absolutely, and I think
that's a real fundamental corepart of myself.
I carry around, as you probablydo, greg, and I do know also,
in those moments where I'mstanding up and I'm being me,
that others don't have thatluxury and privilege and that
I'm standing there and I shouldtake it because I have a moral
responsibility.
If I can, I should.
And other women seeing me atthe front, other people in
(45:08):
different spaces seeing me atthe front, it's really important
.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
And so I should do it Totally, I totally, totally,
totally agree, changing tacksslightly.
How do you sort of fill yourtanks, like do you take time out
, do you exercise, do you readbooks, you listen to music, like
how do you?
Because you're busy, right.
So how do you?
How do you kind of recharge?
Speaker 1 (45:28):
yeah, it's.
It's funny because everyonesays what about balance?
And balance is a misnomer, yeah, that people use to beat
themselves up with.
So either you're failing athome or you're failing at life.
I think that the most importantthing is that you build a life
where you are able to focus onwhat you need to focus on at the
time.
So if my family needs me, I canbe there, or if my work needs
(45:50):
me, I can be there, and I thinkthat's the thing that I try and
work hard for.
I don't have children, so thatgives me a lot of time and space
.
I feel an to because I don'thave children.
I'm very looked after niece andnephew who I get to take to
Disneyland and cool stuff likethat because I don't have to buy
shoes for them or feed them.
I have a moral obligation to dosomething, because I have that
(46:14):
time and space to do somethinggood in the world for
everybody's children, becauseyou know I have that, and so I
get filled up by stepping intothose spaces and getting the
privilege of doing that.
I mean, I enjoy day drinkingwith my friends and I think I
may have some superpowers inthat space.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Your problem-solving ability in those spaces?
Speaker 1 (46:37):
Yeah and I'm a really rubbish golfer, but I'm really
starting to enjoy that playinggolf because it takes me out
into nature and I can do somephysical things.
So for me, I mean I love what Ido.
It fills me up.
Every day, the team I work withfill me up so I don't feel
empty.
And do you read I love?
Yeah, I love to read.
Yeah, I'm like one of thosepeople that I'll read a novel in
(47:00):
two days and just consume.
So I've got to be careful.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
And so it's novels, it's fiction, it's escape.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
I find it hard to do work-ish or personal journey
stuff outside of work.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
One final question Is theresomething that you have quite a
strong belief in that is maybe alittle counterculture and very
few people believe it?
It's an interesting question Isthere something that you have
quite a strong belief in that ismaybe a little counterculture
and very few people believe it?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
It's an interesting question.
I think my political statementabout politicians are probably
not the leaders that will leadus through the change is
probably goes against the graina little bit.
I also think that men need tolead the charge for gender
equality yeah, totally, and Iwork really hard on that in
space, and that Ayo Mō is theperson that brings that up in
(47:48):
spaces and challenges people.
I think also I have a strongview about Western science and
mātauranga.
That's indigenous knowledgefrom a that's a word, the Māori
word for indigenous knowledge,for Māori, mā tōranga and
thinking about how otherknowledge systems have a place
(48:09):
beside Western science and abouthow Western science isn't the
only way to think about theworld, and not just from a
spiritual sort of view, but froman actual understanding and
operating in the world space.
In Western science we think wehave to know individuals seek
(48:31):
the edge of knowledge and pushreally hard on that edge, and we
know that robust challenge to ahypothesis is what makes it
real and stand over time.
Is that challenge?
Well, if we could get ourscientists to be challenged from
a matauranga even a wholeknowledge system that's outside
(48:51):
and if they open their brain tothat challenge, maybe our
solutions would in fact be morerobust, yeah yeah, I, I
completely agree.
And so for me, I've beenthinking about that space for a
little while, and how does thathappen?
And challenging Western scienceto allow the space for
(49:14):
something completely outside ofthe framework.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
Well, I am honestly just so impressed by you and I
really do hope that you keepthinking along those lines and
being an agitator in some of therooms and the boardrooms and
things that you're in globally.
It's been a huge honour to beable to chat to you today.
You're super busy and it's beenquite hard to get our calendars
(49:38):
to align.
I think you may have even gotCOVID there at one point to get
our calendars to align.
I think you may have even gotCOVID there at one point, but
I'm going to go away over theweekend and do a bit of research
on Thermus aquaticus andactually look at finding out a
little bit about that.
So, honestly, thank you, andy.
It's been an absolute pleasurechatting to you today and thank
God, we've got people and womenlike you in our world kind of
leading the charge on some stuff.
(49:59):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (50:00):
Kia ora Greg and kia ora Koso, and it's been a great
chat and I've really enjoyed it.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
Hey, don't forget to check out Deskwork, the team
behind you, being able to buildhigh-performing offshore teams
for your startups and SMEs.
It's deskworkco.
Backslash, greg, and go andsave yourself some hard-earned
money.
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