June 26, 2024 • 27 mins
Adam Zuckerman, founder of Buried In Work, joins us to talk about his father's death and his experience as the executor of his estate. This experience is what led Adam to shift careers and create Buried in Work, to help other families navigate this difficult task. You can find out more about what they do at their website- www.buriedinwork.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mandy (00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast.
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(00:20):
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(00:43):
support.
Today on the podcast, we aretalking to Adam Zuckerman, an
attorney, MBA, and Eisenhowerfellow with a diverse
professional background, Adam isalso a son who lost his dad to
cancer, and one of the eyeopening parts of his grief was
the complicated task of beingexecutor of his dad's estate,
leading him to found Buried inWork, an organization to provide
(01:08):
resources and services tosimplify estate planning, end of
life tasks, and estatetransitions.
Adam is here today to talk abouthis dad and take a deep dive
with us into the nuances ofestate planning and how we can
do better going forward.
Let's take a listen.
Adam (01:24):
So it was an interesting experience for me and one that I
was somewhat prepared for, butat the same point in time, not
prepared for at all.
My dad had cancer.
He ended up passing away.
After his leukemia came back fora third time, which is kind of
crazy.
And in between that, he had skincancer, he had another cancer,
(01:45):
he beat everything.
But it's, it's somewhat strange.
When he was first diagnosed, youknow, your world completely just
is turned upside down.
You have no idea what's goingon, first time.
Everybody hears stories, and ifyou can relate, I'm sure that
other people that are listeningcan relate, likely.
That when people find out thatsomebody that's close to you has
(02:07):
cancer or even if you havecancer suddenly you start
hearing all of these stories.
This impacted this person, thisperson, this person, that
waterfall effect.
Mandy (02:15):
Yeah.
Adam (02:15):
It became even more personal for me in some ways
because I was very fortunate inthat I was a bone marrow match
for my father.
Mandy (02:23):
Oh wow.
Adam (02:25):
About six and a half years before he passed away, I had the
surgery and donated bone marrow.
There's only a 30 percentchance, give or take, that
you're actually a match for oneof your parents.
I was that match and it worked.
So it was absolutely fantastic.
Mandy (02:40):
And was that a difficult decision for you?
I've heard that bone marrow Atleast collecting bone marrow
cells can be very painful.
Did that go, like, what was thatprocess like for you considering
getting tested and then when yourealize you're a match, knowing
that you're going to be a donor?
Adam (02:56):
Yeah, if they said you had to donate your leg, it would
have been a non question for me.
But it's still an exciting andscary, you know, situation.
There's different ways you candonate bone marrow now.
If you're listening, go andregister on the BeAMatch site.
Awesome if you get selected.
Or there's one where you prettymuch just have two big needles
(03:18):
in you and then spin it out andeverything's good.
For the type of bone marrow thatmy dad had for whatever reason I
wasn't a candidate for the easybone marrow So I actually had to
be put under anesthesia.
I had 350 sticks in my back Andmy pelvis and effectively it's
like a big needle goes in theypull it out a little bit there's
(03:39):
some bone marrow in there, theyput it into a petri dish
effectively, and I'msimplifying.
But then they have to go back inand move it around, because if
you go back in, you get bloodthat refilled the area beneath
the marrow.
It was painful, it wasexhausting my entire back was
all bruised, and I did notconsider not doing it for a
moment.
And, like, yes, if we can makethis work, we can make it work.
(04:02):
Which is really funny becausethe recipient, it's a really
easy procedure for them.
It's just, so he got the, he gotthe good end of the stick on
that day.
But you know, we, we're veryfortunate.
We got some extra time.
And one of the things that Iactually take joy in the most,
and if my sisters are listening,you know, they're going to bring
this up later.
So hi, Julian, Lori.
One of the best effects of thatis my dad was able to have a
(04:27):
better relationship with mynieces and nephews.
So one of my sisters had twoyounger kids and they were at
the age when everything startedhappening that they were really
young they probably wouldn'tremember and now they literally
have great memories of vacationswith my dad.
Mandy (04:40):
What a gift.
Adam (04:42):
My mom has joked that after that first surgery my dad
and I got closer.
I got to joke that he kept mearound for spare parts.
But helping actually turned intosomething that was really sad
because the second time hisleukemia came back and meant
that his leukemia had mutated.
And my bone marrow that was inhim could no longer attack or
(05:03):
fight his new leukemia, whichmeant I was basically useless
from a medical standpoint.
So it went from, you can do alot, you can help out, let's try
it, it worked, great, to, oh no,there's nothing you can do
anymore.
And then you just start thinkingand going down that rabbit hole
of, what happens next?
And that's where we ended upmost recently on his last batch,
(05:26):
which we can talk about ifthat's of interest.
Mandy (05:28):
Yeah, I'd love to hear how that progressed for you.
I think it's fascinating thatyou were able to have that
experience of really being theperson who contributed to
extending his life.
And I can only imagine how thathelped your relationship or
maybe created a special sort ofbond between the two of you that
other people might not.
(05:49):
necessarily understand becausethere's something so unique
about giving a part of yourselfto someone else and having that
be the reason that, that theyare able to be there with you a
little bit longer.
Adam (06:00):
Yeah, I think that we did have a special bond in some
ways.
I joked with him oftentimes thathe just kept me around for spare
parts.
If I can tease him a little bit,I would.
And he's got a very good, warm,punny sense of humor.
It actually led to the endeavorthat I'm working in now.
Like the name of Barry didn'twork is because it's punny.
(06:21):
But, he was over at my house.
We were working on something inmy basement.
And he walked up the stairs andhe said, Adam, I'm tired.
And if you say you're tired, ifI say I'm tired, it's normally,
Hey, I want to go take a nap.
My dad to say I'm tired.
He didn't complain about verymuch other than, you know,
zucchini and mushrooms.
And his food.
(06:42):
It meant something was wrong.
So I went to the doctor.
My wife and I went out todinner, actually it was a
brunch, with my mom and my dad.
And I remember leaving and Isaid, this might be the last
meal that we have with my dad.
Because he was waiting for thattime period of results.
Like just, I just felt likesomething was off.
He looked a little bit yellow.
He checked in the hospital andthis is accelerating things, but
(07:05):
went to the doctor, checked inthe hospital, and twelve days
later he passed away.
Mandy (07:08):
Wow.
Adam (07:09):
Yeah.
So, really, really quickly insome ways, we're very lucky.
He was with it until the end,until the last day or so.
The family got to fly in, we gotto say goodbyes.
It's a very different situationthan if somebody just doesn't
wake up in their sleep.
But still, it was too soon.
And I was executor in the willand my mom was still around and
(07:32):
the next thing I knew is whilehe was organized, while he
thought he was organized, hecould have been a lot more
organized.
And that was part of my, mygrief experience was let's get
everything as organized aspossible, not only for him, but
(07:52):
for my family, for my mom.
And that's really what turned inthe whole buried in work, you
know, experience for me.
It's kind of crazy.
Mandy (07:59):
Yeah, you know, I think the experience of being an
executor of a will is somethingpeople almost never talk about
and I have not been theexecutor, but my father has been
the executor of several of ourclose family members who have
passed away.
And it is sometimes a burdenalmost on the person, it can
(08:20):
feel like a huge responsibility.
And I love that you are.
Trying to do something to helpthat scenario and help people
through that because it's so nottalked about.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour experience with being an
executor and what came withthat?
Adam (08:38):
Yeah, I can, and I'll give a little bit of context to help
people understand what anexecutor is.
So I'm an attorney, I have anMBA, which is a somewhat unique
background and positioned mefairly well to handle this type
of exercise.
Everybody in America has anestate plan, whether you
recognize it or not, and what Imean by that is if you don't
(08:59):
have a will, if you don't have atrust, which is okay in some
circumstances, manycircumstances, it just means
that when you pass away, thestate, the government, is going
to dictate what happens.
And it's called interstate.
But! If you want to be a littlebit more proactive, there are
steps that you can take, likehaving a will utilizing
different mechanisms to make iteasier on your heir as your
(09:20):
executor to carry out what yourwishes are.
So, really what a estate plandoes is it says, this is what I
want to have happen to my stuffafter I pass away, and before I
pass away, this is what I wantto have happen to me if I can't.
advocate on my own behalf.
An executor is the individualthat is designated in that will
to carry out your wishes withinthe guidelines of the local
(09:40):
jurisdiction.
And what I don't think a lot ofpeople realize is that the
average estate in the UnitedStates takes 570 hours to
administer as an executor.
And I don't know about you, butmost people don't have a spare
570 hours laying around over thenext year or two.
And there's obviously quick waysthat you can handle small
(10:04):
estates.
It gets more complicated asestates grow in complexity,
family sizes grow and whatnot.
But for me, I was going throughthe process of literally
tracking every single thing thatI did.
Almost to the level of being abit too comprehensive.
And when I showed my mom'sestate planner what I was
working on, she said it was themost comprehensive plan she'd
(10:25):
ever seen.
And it wasn't just for me, Iwanted my mom to see, hey, this
is what I've done, in case shehad any questions.
And also, hey mom, I'm doing alot for you, just leave me
alone.
And also I wanted my sisters tobe able to see what was going on
if they asked to.
My family's pretty close, sothat's not a problem with
anybody.
And when I left, I showed a fewpeople what I was working on,
(10:47):
and resounding, You know,response was, I want this as
well.
I have to go through this.
And I started learning about thestats in the United States and
it got kind of scary.
Every single day, 10, 000 peopleturn 65, which means that by the
end of the decade, more peopleare going to be 65.
Than under 65, and the number ofpeople 65 and over are going to
double.
Largest wealth transfer inhistory is about to happen.
(11:09):
Some people say up to 80something trillion dollars over
the next 20 or 30 years.
And what made it really personalfor me, was that I found out
that women on average outlivetheir male husbands by an
average of 5.
8 years.
Which means if you look at thesetraditional family values,
there's an entire generation ofwomen that are about to find
(11:30):
themselves, and obviously Idon't say an entire generation.
I mean in some circumstances, inmany circumstances, but there
are plenty of women out therethat are far more financially
adept than their, their spouses.
But by and large, there are alot of people that are about to
find themselves in situationswhere, you know, they're
unfamiliar and the time to learnis not when you're grieving.
(11:50):
The time to learn is not whenyou're stressed out.
So The time to learn is not whenit's the most important time to
learn and the takeaway for methere was do everything you can
possible to help people createtheir estate plans, get
organized, inform their childrenof what they need and answer
(12:11):
questions before they need to,because that 570 hours can be
drastically reduced.
And that's, that's where I'vebeen spending my time since my
dad passed.
Mandy (12:20):
You're so right, So many executors are people who, A, may
have zero experience everdealing with something like
this.
They're also grieving on top ofit.
And, They're often surrounded bya family who is grieving, which
often leads to tension andconflict.
So, that is all a recipe fordisaster if people are
(12:40):
unprepared for what is to comeand there's no communication
beforehand.
So tell me, what does Buried andWork offer to people?
Like, at what stage do peopleget in touch with you?
How does that work?
How does that work?
Adam (12:54):
Okay we offer a lot.
We're doing a lot.
It's not just me, there's a lotof people that are involved in
various capacities.
Think of it in three buckets.
So your buckets is estatepreparation organization, end of
life tasks, and estatetransition and probate.
We have resources for do ityourselfers, so those are
checklists, those are guides,they're articles, they're
(13:15):
quizzes, they're directories forservice providers.
Literally, it goes as detailedas, if you are planning a end of
life Funeral, or interested inAndalite traditions for Hindus,
for Christians, for Muslims, forLGBTQ for secular.
Like, we've got guides, andwe've taken those and made them
into chat GPTs, so you can haveconversations with them if you
(13:35):
want.
We have card games.
So, one stemmed out of myfather, a conversation with him,
with all the family members inthe room, where we were just
telling stories.
Tell us one more story about.
So now we have 126.
cards with phrases and questionson it that you can have these
really fun Conversations withyour loved ones family or
friends to capture thosememories before they're gone.
(13:56):
We've got one that is a gamecalled nothing left unsaid and
it's more on the estatepreparation side Do you have a
will do you have a trust becausea lot of people they don't
answer these questions and Thechallenge that we found is that
you're about to send your familyon a scavenger hunt if they
don't know what's going on YouAnd the analogy is if I invited
(14:16):
you over to my house to bake acake and I had all the
ingredients that we've discussedin the recipe and we knew what
we were doing, we're going tomake the cake but it's going to
be pretty efficient.
But if I invite you over to myhouse to make a cake and you
show up and I go you're making acake But then I can't talk to
you and I just leave you in thekitchen But you don't know that
my flour is locked in a safe inthe basement that you didn't
(14:36):
even know existed It's gonna bea little bit more difficult for
you.
So we've got a bunch of productsdo it yourselfers also products
for people that need that guidedapproach like the estate
preparation package and Itreally is that fill in the
blank, you know, this is exactlywhat you need So if something
were to happen to you not justpassing away, but incapacitation
Temporary or long term yourfamily really has All of the
(14:59):
information that they need attheir fingertips so they can hop
in and do do.
Do
Mandy (15:05):
you offer education for people about A, why it's
important to have these types ofdocuments ahead of time, who
needs them, what should beincluded?
I work at a hospital and weoften see patients who come in
at end of life.
I work in a palliative care unitand we have to ask, is your
loved one, if the person isincapacitated and they can't
(15:27):
answer for themselves, but arethey married and sometimes
people will say no, becausethey've been separated for 20
years, but in our state, atleast, and I don't know if it's
the same in every state, itdoesn't matter if you're not
legally divorced, if you don'tfill out a specific paper, the
state will consider that spouseto be your next of kin, whether
you, would never want that inyour life or not.
(15:49):
And so I think these are likethe little things that people
don't realize until they're inthat moment.
And sometimes it can be toolate.
And then the person who youdon't want, or say you're
estranged from your children andthey're the next of kin legally.
Do you go through and likeeducate people on these types of
topics?
Adam (16:06):
We, we do on a lot of them.
We have an entire guide tohospice and palliative care.
We've worked with palliativenurses and experts to come up
with our games.
second game that we had,actually both of them, reviewed
by two clinical psychologists.
So you can certainly come andlearn.
And then what's really uniqueabout what we're trying to put
together and are puttingtogether, and it's a growing,
(16:27):
you know, repository ofinformation, is not just the
information itself, but theimpact.
So if you get the estatepreparation package, it comes
with an annual review checklistthat's a bound, packet.
And it says check this, checkthis, check this, and here's
why.
And there's a lot of things likejust like what you just
mentioned that unless somebodytells you there's no reason for
you to know Ah I had aconversation with somebody, this
(16:49):
is an example I'd like to, tobring up, where he was married,
he has two children, he lives inVirginia, he got a divorce, and
he updated his will.
So 50 percent went to each ofhis two children.
And he asked what we could dofor him.
And I said, well, here's a fewthings, xyz, by the way, have
you updated your payable anddeath beneficiaries on your bank
accounts?
Side note, if you do that, ithelps you avoid probate, if
(17:10):
that's something you want to do.
But the answer was, no, Ihaven't, but it doesn't matter,
I updated my will.
And what he was saying anddidn't realize it, is that if he
got in a car accident and passedaway, his ex wife, who is still
the payable on deathbeneficiary, would receive all
of his cash from his bankaccount.
Or bank accounts that she waslisted as because that's a
contractual relationship.
(17:32):
It gets processed before you're,and the kids would get the
remainder.
So there's a lot of things thatwe're trying to help people
understand and wrap their headaround.
Not just today, but for down theroad.
Because estate planning reallyis, you're planning today for
tomorrow, but it has to evolveinto the future.
And you have to revisit.
And we're helping peopleunderstand this is what you need
(17:53):
to do, this is when you do it.
And that's why we have a lot ofour checklists.
So it's, here's the steps thatyou can take before somebody
passes away.
Here are the specific steps youcan take after somebody passes
away.
Like, I didn't think thatsomebody would have to go to a
house if they were alone towater plants and secure things
because people are watching thenews to scam you and different
things.
(18:13):
Like really neat, nuanced thingsthat just people don't think
about.
We're collecting a massiveamount of information to make it
easier on other people.
Mandy (18:22):
Yeah.
And the amount of forms that youneed and the specifics that go
into each one are so complicatedfor the average person who isn't
dealing with this, this realmevery day.
example, a healthcare proxy,people don't realize that that
ends the moment the person dies.
And once.
Once the person dies, you are nolonger have control over
(18:43):
anything legally, just if you'rerelying on that one piece of
paper.
So for people to understand,like, the nuances of power of
attorney and healthcare proxyand executor and all of the
different roles that you canplay.
It's so complex and I feel forpeople who are sort of thrown in
with a sudden death and have noidea what they're getting into.
Adam (19:04):
Yeah, it's it's confusing advanced directives.
They mean different things indifferent states and we help
people understand That's just anumbrella term.
You got your living will whichis non binding You have an
ethical will you have yourhealth care proxy like you said,
which you know goes into yourpower of attorney That's medical
your power of attorney.
That's financial and you'reright A lot of people don't
realize The minute that afinancial power of attorney ends
(19:26):
is the minute that person passesaway and same with medical,
Mandy (19:29):
right?
Adam (19:29):
so You have to educate people not only on what those
documents are, but the peoplethat have those powers, they
also have to be aware of it.
And then they have to be awarethat you can also revoke it.
And there's a ton of informationthat, that wraps all of that.
The, the POST, P O L S T, whichis portable portable medical
orders.
Those are binding.
People get confused at what aDNR is.
(19:51):
Is it a medical order from adoctor?
Or this is what I want to havehappen when I'm not
resuscitated.
And then all of yourinformation, and this is really
what takes the most time to dois gathering it.
You've got to gather informationon your family members and that
includes your pets, yourcitizenship information, your
identifications, your career andeducation history, your
residential history, yourdigital legacy now, which is
(20:14):
really neat.
Now if you have email, what doyou want to have happen to those
emails?
What about the photos on yourphone, the videos, your Facebook
account?
Mandy (20:21):
That's fascinating.
Yeah, I hadn't even thought ofthat,
Adam (20:25):
right?
There's so much that goes intoit.
And that's what we're doing iswe're collecting these resources
so when something happens, cometo us.
We'll help you out.
Hopefully you're organizedbeforehand and if not, we're
going to make it a little biteasier for you.
That's
Mandy (20:38):
great.
Do you provide specific advicebased on the state that people
are living in?
Adam (20:43):
Yeah, so we've got articles that are state specific
based on tags.
We just completed the firstround of a review of all 50
states to what makes a willlegal.
So a will in one state might notbe legal in another state based
on how it was created and what'sin it.
Is it recognized from anotherarea or not?
So we're saying that's what hasto go in, but it's not just us.
(21:05):
We're actually partnering withsubject matter experts, like
attorneys in the various Stateswho know their jurisdiction
really specifically.
So if it is really legal, youcome to us, you get a high level
understanding, and then we kickyou over to a service provider.
You find a service provider inthe directory or otherwise where
you live.
Because that's really the levelof service that we want you to
have.
(21:25):
We won't make your will for you.
We won't make your trust foryou.
People have asked us do anyanswers.
We don't want to, that's notwhat we're doing.
We want you to have all of yourinformation organized.
When you go to attorneys, whenyou go and make your own will,
you're going to be moreefficient and it's going to save
you money in the long run.
Mandy (21:39):
That sounds like an incredible service and something
clearly needed based on thestatistics that you shared and
just life experience, I thinkanyone who's been through grief
knows that this is a servicethat could really benefit people
because I would.
That the majority of familiesare.
Sort of wading through unknownwaters when this happens and
(22:00):
trying to figure it out as theygo.
And so I know, even just as afamily member who has lost close
family members, for myself now,you know, I have kids and it's
important for us, even as youngpeople, if, you know, Not that
I'm that young, but, you know,even if you're at an age where
you think like, oh, I'm fine, Ihave years before I need to
(22:21):
think about estate planning, wedon't ever know what we have.
And so this applies to literallyevery adult out there that we
could all benefit from somethinglike this.
Where can people come acrossmore information from you and
find
Adam (22:39):
you?
Very easy to find us.
www.
buriedinwork.
com It's a bit funny.
We'll have a podcast out soon.
We've got games that you canfind online.
Soon those will be on Amazon anda few other places.
But come to buriedinwork.
com We'd love to hear from you.
A lot of information there.
And if there's something thatyou need that you don't see, let
(23:00):
us know, maybe we'll make it foryou.
Mandy (23:01):
Well, thank you, Adam.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story with me.
And I sometimes like to reflecton my podcast.
The reason I named it GriefTrails is because I think so
many people have a story whereTheir life is going in a certain
direction, and then grief cameinto their life, and the
(23:21):
direction that we have takenshifts into something new, and
often that looks, it looksdifferent for everyone, but
sometimes it's a new business,it's a new, it's a new passion,
or it's a new Endeavor thatyou're creating, and I can
definitely see that in yourlife.
And so, I don't know, I'm justcurious.
(23:42):
Do you ever think about like thebefore and after for you and how
drastically your life haschanged in response to your
father's death and you know,what he might think about what
you're doing now?
Adam (23:54):
Absolutely.
Two years ago.
I was literally living onplanes.
I was in 54 flights in one year,mostly international.
I was meeting prime ministers,ministers of energy, and CEOs of
companies.
And now I work from Maryland.
I don't travel as much.
I've never been happier making aimpact not only for individuals
(24:16):
because we're helping out directto consumer and then we also
have businesses that are workingwith us as well.
So HR benefits and attorneys andtax prep people, a bunch of
others are buying these fortheir clients as well.
So the impact of what I'm doingis completely different.
And if someone asked me a yearand a half, three, four or five
(24:37):
years ago, whenever, are yougoing to be in the death tech
industry?
My answer is no.
But what I'm finding is, is justsuch a rewarding and a, a
supportive community.
I flew out to Iowa and I went tothe funeral director
associations conference just toreally get in the middle of
(24:59):
things.
And I have never met a morewelcoming group of individuals
with a unique story in my entirelife.
And I think that's what's reallyneat about this is it's an
entire path that I didn't expectto be on.
And my best friend, I think saidit best.
There's nothing that would havemade your dad happier knowing
that you are helping peoplemaking money off of his death.
(25:20):
And a little bit of a tonguetwister.
Bye.
I can't, I can't help but agree.
Mandy (25:25):
I love that.
I love that when I saw the nameof your company, it made me
giggle a little.
It's definitely nice to have asense of humor when it's such a
serious topic.
And I, I just love to see peoplewho have gotten to the other
side because I think when we'rein the midst of grief and
sadness and really feeling theweight of what we're losing, It
(25:47):
can be hard to imagine that ourlives are going to get to a
place where we feel fulfilled.
From something that reallystemmed from something so hard
and terrible.
And so I just appreciate gettingto see you and see how happy you
are in your new endeavor andwhat you're doing.
And knowing that that came fromsomething really hard because I
(26:07):
think it's important forlisteners to know that if
they're in the hard part thatthings can get better from here.
Adam (26:14):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Mandy (26:16):
Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that
you wanted to add?
Adam (26:20):
No, I think that's it.
And everybody come tobarryandwork.
com get the estate preparationpackage or at least read about
it.
Just like Amanda said, you know,things can happen at any time,
and trust me, if you'reorganized today, it is going to
make things so much easier onyou, your family, your loved
ones later, because the lastthing you want to do is what I
was doing in a hotel room, or ahospital room, rather.
(26:42):
I wish it was a hotel room.
In a hospital room, asking aboutpolicies because your dad was
trying to, like, wrap things up.
Spend time with your loved oneswhen you can, and not when you
have to.
Mandy (26:53):
I hope you enjoyed listening to Adam's story and
find his resources helpful foryou or someone you know.
His website is linked in theshow notes.
You may notice that our podcasthas a new feature called Fan
Mail, where you can text theshow with your questions,
comments, or reactions.
We would love to hear from you,and we will reply in our next
episode if you do.
As always, thank you so much forlistening.
(27:15):
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it, andas always, Visit RememberGrams
anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Stay tuned for our updatedwebsite, and thank you.
Have a wonderful day.
Hello, and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast.
I'm your host, Amanda Kernighanfrom Remembergrams, a small
business dedicated to helpingyou support those in your life
experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box.
Shipping within the U.
S.
is always free, and we treateach order with special care,
(00:20):
paying attention to everydetail.
Currently, Remember Graham'swebsite is getting a facelift
and we're hoping to make it eveneasier for you to support a
grieving friend.
But in the meantime, there maybe some unplanned interruptions
to the website while we migrateeverything.
If you have any difficulties atall, please email us at
contactatremembergrams.
com and thank you in advance foryour patience and continued
(00:43):
support.
Today on the podcast, we aretalking to Adam Zuckerman, an
attorney, MBA, and Eisenhowerfellow with a diverse
professional background, Adam isalso a son who lost his dad to
cancer, and one of the eyeopening parts of his grief was
the complicated task of beingexecutor of his dad's estate,
leading him to found Buried inWork, an organization to provide
(01:08):
resources and services tosimplify estate planning, end of
life tasks, and estatetransitions.
Adam is here today to talk abouthis dad and take a deep dive
with us into the nuances ofestate planning and how we can
do better going forward.
Let's take a listen.
Adam (01:24):
So it was an interesting experience for me and one that I
was somewhat prepared for, butat the same point in time, not
prepared for at all.
My dad had cancer.
He ended up passing away.
After his leukemia came back fora third time, which is kind of
crazy.
And in between that, he had skincancer, he had another cancer,
(01:45):
he beat everything.
But it's, it's somewhat strange.
When he was first diagnosed, youknow, your world completely just
is turned upside down.
You have no idea what's goingon, first time.
Everybody hears stories, and ifyou can relate, I'm sure that
other people that are listeningcan relate, likely.
That when people find out thatsomebody that's close to you has
(02:07):
cancer or even if you havecancer suddenly you start
hearing all of these stories.
This impacted this person, thisperson, this person, that
waterfall effect.
Mandy (02:15):
Yeah.
Adam (02:15):
It became even more personal for me in some ways
because I was very fortunate inthat I was a bone marrow match
for my father.
Mandy (02:23):
Oh wow.
Adam (02:25):
About six and a half years before he passed away, I had the
surgery and donated bone marrow.
There's only a 30 percentchance, give or take, that
you're actually a match for oneof your parents.
I was that match and it worked.
So it was absolutely fantastic.
Mandy (02:40):
And was that a difficult decision for you?
I've heard that bone marrow Atleast collecting bone marrow
cells can be very painful.
Did that go, like, what was thatprocess like for you considering
getting tested and then when yourealize you're a match, knowing
that you're going to be a donor?
Adam (02:56):
Yeah, if they said you had to donate your leg, it would
have been a non question for me.
But it's still an exciting andscary, you know, situation.
There's different ways you candonate bone marrow now.
If you're listening, go andregister on the BeAMatch site.
Awesome if you get selected.
Or there's one where you prettymuch just have two big needles
(03:18):
in you and then spin it out andeverything's good.
For the type of bone marrow thatmy dad had for whatever reason I
wasn't a candidate for the easybone marrow So I actually had to
be put under anesthesia.
I had 350 sticks in my back Andmy pelvis and effectively it's
like a big needle goes in theypull it out a little bit there's
(03:39):
some bone marrow in there, theyput it into a petri dish
effectively, and I'msimplifying.
But then they have to go back inand move it around, because if
you go back in, you get bloodthat refilled the area beneath
the marrow.
It was painful, it wasexhausting my entire back was
all bruised, and I did notconsider not doing it for a
moment.
And, like, yes, if we can makethis work, we can make it work.
(04:02):
Which is really funny becausethe recipient, it's a really
easy procedure for them.
It's just, so he got the, he gotthe good end of the stick on
that day.
But you know, we, we're veryfortunate.
We got some extra time.
And one of the things that Iactually take joy in the most,
and if my sisters are listening,you know, they're going to bring
this up later.
So hi, Julian, Lori.
One of the best effects of thatis my dad was able to have a
(04:27):
better relationship with mynieces and nephews.
So one of my sisters had twoyounger kids and they were at
the age when everything startedhappening that they were really
young they probably wouldn'tremember and now they literally
have great memories of vacationswith my dad.
Mandy (04:40):
What a gift.
Adam (04:42):
My mom has joked that after that first surgery my dad
and I got closer.
I got to joke that he kept mearound for spare parts.
But helping actually turned intosomething that was really sad
because the second time hisleukemia came back and meant
that his leukemia had mutated.
And my bone marrow that was inhim could no longer attack or
(05:03):
fight his new leukemia, whichmeant I was basically useless
from a medical standpoint.
So it went from, you can do alot, you can help out, let's try
it, it worked, great, to, oh no,there's nothing you can do
anymore.
And then you just start thinkingand going down that rabbit hole
of, what happens next?
And that's where we ended upmost recently on his last batch,
(05:26):
which we can talk about ifthat's of interest.
Mandy (05:28):
Yeah, I'd love to hear how that progressed for you.
I think it's fascinating thatyou were able to have that
experience of really being theperson who contributed to
extending his life.
And I can only imagine how thathelped your relationship or
maybe created a special sort ofbond between the two of you that
other people might not.
(05:49):
necessarily understand becausethere's something so unique
about giving a part of yourselfto someone else and having that
be the reason that, that theyare able to be there with you a
little bit longer.
Adam (06:00):
Yeah, I think that we did have a special bond in some
ways.
I joked with him oftentimes thathe just kept me around for spare
parts.
If I can tease him a little bit,I would.
And he's got a very good, warm,punny sense of humor.
It actually led to the endeavorthat I'm working in now.
Like the name of Barry didn'twork is because it's punny.
(06:21):
But, he was over at my house.
We were working on something inmy basement.
And he walked up the stairs andhe said, Adam, I'm tired.
And if you say you're tired, ifI say I'm tired, it's normally,
Hey, I want to go take a nap.
My dad to say I'm tired.
He didn't complain about verymuch other than, you know,
zucchini and mushrooms.
And his food.
(06:42):
It meant something was wrong.
So I went to the doctor.
My wife and I went out todinner, actually it was a
brunch, with my mom and my dad.
And I remember leaving and Isaid, this might be the last
meal that we have with my dad.
Because he was waiting for thattime period of results.
Like just, I just felt likesomething was off.
He looked a little bit yellow.
He checked in the hospital andthis is accelerating things, but
(07:05):
went to the doctor, checked inthe hospital, and twelve days
later he passed away.
Mandy (07:08):
Wow.
Adam (07:09):
Yeah.
So, really, really quickly insome ways, we're very lucky.
He was with it until the end,until the last day or so.
The family got to fly in, we gotto say goodbyes.
It's a very different situationthan if somebody just doesn't
wake up in their sleep.
But still, it was too soon.
And I was executor in the willand my mom was still around and
(07:32):
the next thing I knew is whilehe was organized, while he
thought he was organized, hecould have been a lot more
organized.
And that was part of my, mygrief experience was let's get
everything as organized aspossible, not only for him, but
(07:52):
for my family, for my mom.
And that's really what turned inthe whole buried in work, you
know, experience for me.
It's kind of crazy.
Mandy (07:59):
Yeah, you know, I think the experience of being an
executor of a will is somethingpeople almost never talk about
and I have not been theexecutor, but my father has been
the executor of several of ourclose family members who have
passed away.
And it is sometimes a burdenalmost on the person, it can
(08:20):
feel like a huge responsibility.
And I love that you are.
Trying to do something to helpthat scenario and help people
through that because it's so nottalked about.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour experience with being an
executor and what came withthat?
Adam (08:38):
Yeah, I can, and I'll give a little bit of context to help
people understand what anexecutor is.
So I'm an attorney, I have anMBA, which is a somewhat unique
background and positioned mefairly well to handle this type
of exercise.
Everybody in America has anestate plan, whether you
recognize it or not, and what Imean by that is if you don't
(08:59):
have a will, if you don't have atrust, which is okay in some
circumstances, manycircumstances, it just means
that when you pass away, thestate, the government, is going
to dictate what happens.
And it's called interstate.
But! If you want to be a littlebit more proactive, there are
steps that you can take, likehaving a will utilizing
different mechanisms to make iteasier on your heir as your
(09:20):
executor to carry out what yourwishes are.
So, really what a estate plandoes is it says, this is what I
want to have happen to my stuffafter I pass away, and before I
pass away, this is what I wantto have happen to me if I can't.
advocate on my own behalf.
An executor is the individualthat is designated in that will
to carry out your wishes withinthe guidelines of the local
(09:40):
jurisdiction.
And what I don't think a lot ofpeople realize is that the
average estate in the UnitedStates takes 570 hours to
administer as an executor.
And I don't know about you, butmost people don't have a spare
570 hours laying around over thenext year or two.
And there's obviously quick waysthat you can handle small
(10:04):
estates.
It gets more complicated asestates grow in complexity,
family sizes grow and whatnot.
But for me, I was going throughthe process of literally
tracking every single thing thatI did.
Almost to the level of being abit too comprehensive.
And when I showed my mom'sestate planner what I was
working on, she said it was themost comprehensive plan she'd
(10:25):
ever seen.
And it wasn't just for me, Iwanted my mom to see, hey, this
is what I've done, in case shehad any questions.
And also, hey mom, I'm doing alot for you, just leave me
alone.
And also I wanted my sisters tobe able to see what was going on
if they asked to.
My family's pretty close, sothat's not a problem with
anybody.
And when I left, I showed a fewpeople what I was working on,
(10:47):
and resounding, You know,response was, I want this as
well.
I have to go through this.
And I started learning about thestats in the United States and
it got kind of scary.
Every single day, 10, 000 peopleturn 65, which means that by the
end of the decade, more peopleare going to be 65.
Than under 65, and the number ofpeople 65 and over are going to
double.
Largest wealth transfer inhistory is about to happen.
(11:09):
Some people say up to 80something trillion dollars over
the next 20 or 30 years.
And what made it really personalfor me, was that I found out
that women on average outlivetheir male husbands by an
average of 5.
8 years.
Which means if you look at thesetraditional family values,
there's an entire generation ofwomen that are about to find
(11:30):
themselves, and obviously Idon't say an entire generation.
I mean in some circumstances, inmany circumstances, but there
are plenty of women out therethat are far more financially
adept than their, their spouses.
But by and large, there are alot of people that are about to
find themselves in situationswhere, you know, they're
unfamiliar and the time to learnis not when you're grieving.
(11:50):
The time to learn is not whenyou're stressed out.
So The time to learn is not whenit's the most important time to
learn and the takeaway for methere was do everything you can
possible to help people createtheir estate plans, get
organized, inform their childrenof what they need and answer
(12:11):
questions before they need to,because that 570 hours can be
drastically reduced.
And that's, that's where I'vebeen spending my time since my
dad passed.
Mandy (12:20):
You're so right, So many executors are people who, A, may
have zero experience everdealing with something like
this.
They're also grieving on top ofit.
And, They're often surrounded bya family who is grieving, which
often leads to tension andconflict.
So, that is all a recipe fordisaster if people are
(12:40):
unprepared for what is to comeand there's no communication
beforehand.
So tell me, what does Buried andWork offer to people?
Like, at what stage do peopleget in touch with you?
How does that work?
How does that work?
Adam (12:54):
Okay we offer a lot.
We're doing a lot.
It's not just me, there's a lotof people that are involved in
various capacities.
Think of it in three buckets.
So your buckets is estatepreparation organization, end of
life tasks, and estatetransition and probate.
We have resources for do ityourselfers, so those are
checklists, those are guides,they're articles, they're
(13:15):
quizzes, they're directories forservice providers.
Literally, it goes as detailedas, if you are planning a end of
life Funeral, or interested inAndalite traditions for Hindus,
for Christians, for Muslims, forLGBTQ for secular.
Like, we've got guides, andwe've taken those and made them
into chat GPTs, so you can haveconversations with them if you
(13:35):
want.
We have card games.
So, one stemmed out of myfather, a conversation with him,
with all the family members inthe room, where we were just
telling stories.
Tell us one more story about.
So now we have 126.
cards with phrases and questionson it that you can have these
really fun Conversations withyour loved ones family or
friends to capture thosememories before they're gone.
(13:56):
We've got one that is a gamecalled nothing left unsaid and
it's more on the estatepreparation side Do you have a
will do you have a trust becausea lot of people they don't
answer these questions and Thechallenge that we found is that
you're about to send your familyon a scavenger hunt if they
don't know what's going on YouAnd the analogy is if I invited
(14:16):
you over to my house to bake acake and I had all the
ingredients that we've discussedin the recipe and we knew what
we were doing, we're going tomake the cake but it's going to
be pretty efficient.
But if I invite you over to myhouse to make a cake and you
show up and I go you're making acake But then I can't talk to
you and I just leave you in thekitchen But you don't know that
my flour is locked in a safe inthe basement that you didn't
(14:36):
even know existed It's gonna bea little bit more difficult for
you.
So we've got a bunch of productsdo it yourselfers also products
for people that need that guidedapproach like the estate
preparation package and Itreally is that fill in the
blank, you know, this is exactlywhat you need So if something
were to happen to you not justpassing away, but incapacitation
Temporary or long term yourfamily really has All of the
(14:59):
information that they need attheir fingertips so they can hop
in and do do.
Do
Mandy (15:05):
you offer education for people about A, why it's
important to have these types ofdocuments ahead of time, who
needs them, what should beincluded?
I work at a hospital and weoften see patients who come in
at end of life.
I work in a palliative care unitand we have to ask, is your
loved one, if the person isincapacitated and they can't
(15:27):
answer for themselves, but arethey married and sometimes
people will say no, becausethey've been separated for 20
years, but in our state, atleast, and I don't know if it's
the same in every state, itdoesn't matter if you're not
legally divorced, if you don'tfill out a specific paper, the
state will consider that spouseto be your next of kin, whether
you, would never want that inyour life or not.
(15:49):
And so I think these are likethe little things that people
don't realize until they're inthat moment.
And sometimes it can be toolate.
And then the person who youdon't want, or say you're
estranged from your children andthey're the next of kin legally.
Do you go through and likeeducate people on these types of
topics?
Adam (16:06):
We, we do on a lot of them.
We have an entire guide tohospice and palliative care.
We've worked with palliativenurses and experts to come up
with our games.
second game that we had,actually both of them, reviewed
by two clinical psychologists.
So you can certainly come andlearn.
And then what's really uniqueabout what we're trying to put
together and are puttingtogether, and it's a growing,
(16:27):
you know, repository ofinformation, is not just the
information itself, but theimpact.
So if you get the estatepreparation package, it comes
with an annual review checklistthat's a bound, packet.
And it says check this, checkthis, check this, and here's
why.
And there's a lot of things likejust like what you just
mentioned that unless somebodytells you there's no reason for
you to know Ah I had aconversation with somebody, this
(16:49):
is an example I'd like to, tobring up, where he was married,
he has two children, he lives inVirginia, he got a divorce, and
he updated his will.
So 50 percent went to each ofhis two children.
And he asked what we could dofor him.
And I said, well, here's a fewthings, xyz, by the way, have
you updated your payable anddeath beneficiaries on your bank
accounts?
Side note, if you do that, ithelps you avoid probate, if
(17:10):
that's something you want to do.
But the answer was, no, Ihaven't, but it doesn't matter,
I updated my will.
And what he was saying anddidn't realize it, is that if he
got in a car accident and passedaway, his ex wife, who is still
the payable on deathbeneficiary, would receive all
of his cash from his bankaccount.
Or bank accounts that she waslisted as because that's a
contractual relationship.
(17:32):
It gets processed before you're,and the kids would get the
remainder.
So there's a lot of things thatwe're trying to help people
understand and wrap their headaround.
Not just today, but for down theroad.
Because estate planning reallyis, you're planning today for
tomorrow, but it has to evolveinto the future.
And you have to revisit.
And we're helping peopleunderstand this is what you need
(17:53):
to do, this is when you do it.
And that's why we have a lot ofour checklists.
So it's, here's the steps thatyou can take before somebody
passes away.
Here are the specific steps youcan take after somebody passes
away.
Like, I didn't think thatsomebody would have to go to a
house if they were alone towater plants and secure things
because people are watching thenews to scam you and different
things.
(18:13):
Like really neat, nuanced thingsthat just people don't think
about.
We're collecting a massiveamount of information to make it
easier on other people.
Mandy (18:22):
Yeah.
And the amount of forms that youneed and the specifics that go
into each one are so complicatedfor the average person who isn't
dealing with this, this realmevery day.
example, a healthcare proxy,people don't realize that that
ends the moment the person dies.
And once.
Once the person dies, you are nolonger have control over
(18:43):
anything legally, just if you'rerelying on that one piece of
paper.
So for people to understand,like, the nuances of power of
attorney and healthcare proxyand executor and all of the
different roles that you canplay.
It's so complex and I feel forpeople who are sort of thrown in
with a sudden death and have noidea what they're getting into.
Adam (19:04):
Yeah, it's it's confusing advanced directives.
They mean different things indifferent states and we help
people understand That's just anumbrella term.
You got your living will whichis non binding You have an
ethical will you have yourhealth care proxy like you said,
which you know goes into yourpower of attorney That's medical
your power of attorney.
That's financial and you'reright A lot of people don't
realize The minute that afinancial power of attorney ends
(19:26):
is the minute that person passesaway and same with medical,
Mandy (19:29):
right?
Adam (19:29):
so You have to educate people not only on what those
documents are, but the peoplethat have those powers, they
also have to be aware of it.
And then they have to be awarethat you can also revoke it.
And there's a ton of informationthat, that wraps all of that.
The, the POST, P O L S T, whichis portable portable medical
orders.
Those are binding.
People get confused at what aDNR is.
(19:51):
Is it a medical order from adoctor?
Or this is what I want to havehappen when I'm not
resuscitated.
And then all of yourinformation, and this is really
what takes the most time to dois gathering it.
You've got to gather informationon your family members and that
includes your pets, yourcitizenship information, your
identifications, your career andeducation history, your
residential history, yourdigital legacy now, which is
(20:14):
really neat.
Now if you have email, what doyou want to have happen to those
emails?
What about the photos on yourphone, the videos, your Facebook
account?
Mandy (20:21):
That's fascinating.
Yeah, I hadn't even thought ofthat,
Adam (20:25):
right?
There's so much that goes intoit.
And that's what we're doing iswe're collecting these resources
so when something happens, cometo us.
We'll help you out.
Hopefully you're organizedbeforehand and if not, we're
going to make it a little biteasier for you.
That's
Mandy (20:38):
great.
Do you provide specific advicebased on the state that people
are living in?
Adam (20:43):
Yeah, so we've got articles that are state specific
based on tags.
We just completed the firstround of a review of all 50
states to what makes a willlegal.
So a will in one state might notbe legal in another state based
on how it was created and what'sin it.
Is it recognized from anotherarea or not?
So we're saying that's what hasto go in, but it's not just us.
(21:05):
We're actually partnering withsubject matter experts, like
attorneys in the various Stateswho know their jurisdiction
really specifically.
So if it is really legal, youcome to us, you get a high level
understanding, and then we kickyou over to a service provider.
You find a service provider inthe directory or otherwise where
you live.
Because that's really the levelof service that we want you to
have.
(21:25):
We won't make your will for you.
We won't make your trust foryou.
People have asked us do anyanswers.
We don't want to, that's notwhat we're doing.
We want you to have all of yourinformation organized.
When you go to attorneys, whenyou go and make your own will,
you're going to be moreefficient and it's going to save
you money in the long run.
Mandy (21:39):
That sounds like an incredible service and something
clearly needed based on thestatistics that you shared and
just life experience, I thinkanyone who's been through grief
knows that this is a servicethat could really benefit people
because I would.
That the majority of familiesare.
Sort of wading through unknownwaters when this happens and
(22:00):
trying to figure it out as theygo.
And so I know, even just as afamily member who has lost close
family members, for myself now,you know, I have kids and it's
important for us, even as youngpeople, if, you know, Not that
I'm that young, but, you know,even if you're at an age where
you think like, oh, I'm fine, Ihave years before I need to
(22:21):
think about estate planning, wedon't ever know what we have.
And so this applies to literallyevery adult out there that we
could all benefit from somethinglike this.
Where can people come acrossmore information from you and
find
Adam (22:39):
you?
Very easy to find us.
www.
buriedinwork.
com It's a bit funny.
We'll have a podcast out soon.
We've got games that you canfind online.
Soon those will be on Amazon anda few other places.
But come to buriedinwork.
com We'd love to hear from you.
A lot of information there.
And if there's something thatyou need that you don't see, let
(23:00):
us know, maybe we'll make it foryou.
Mandy (23:01):
Well, thank you, Adam.
I really appreciate you sharingyour story with me.
And I sometimes like to reflecton my podcast.
The reason I named it GriefTrails is because I think so
many people have a story whereTheir life is going in a certain
direction, and then grief cameinto their life, and the
(23:21):
direction that we have takenshifts into something new, and
often that looks, it looksdifferent for everyone, but
sometimes it's a new business,it's a new, it's a new passion,
or it's a new Endeavor thatyou're creating, and I can
definitely see that in yourlife.
And so, I don't know, I'm justcurious.
(23:42):
Do you ever think about like thebefore and after for you and how
drastically your life haschanged in response to your
father's death and you know,what he might think about what
you're doing now?
Adam (23:54):
Absolutely.
Two years ago.
I was literally living onplanes.
I was in 54 flights in one year,mostly international.
I was meeting prime ministers,ministers of energy, and CEOs of
companies.
And now I work from Maryland.
I don't travel as much.
I've never been happier making aimpact not only for individuals
(24:16):
because we're helping out directto consumer and then we also
have businesses that are workingwith us as well.
So HR benefits and attorneys andtax prep people, a bunch of
others are buying these fortheir clients as well.
So the impact of what I'm doingis completely different.
And if someone asked me a yearand a half, three, four or five
(24:37):
years ago, whenever, are yougoing to be in the death tech
industry?
My answer is no.
But what I'm finding is, is justsuch a rewarding and a, a
supportive community.
I flew out to Iowa and I went tothe funeral director
associations conference just toreally get in the middle of
(24:59):
things.
And I have never met a morewelcoming group of individuals
with a unique story in my entirelife.
And I think that's what's reallyneat about this is it's an
entire path that I didn't expectto be on.
And my best friend, I think saidit best.
There's nothing that would havemade your dad happier knowing
that you are helping peoplemaking money off of his death.
(25:20):
And a little bit of a tonguetwister.
Bye.
I can't, I can't help but agree.
Mandy (25:25):
I love that.
I love that when I saw the nameof your company, it made me
giggle a little.
It's definitely nice to have asense of humor when it's such a
serious topic.
And I, I just love to see peoplewho have gotten to the other
side because I think when we'rein the midst of grief and
sadness and really feeling theweight of what we're losing, It
(25:47):
can be hard to imagine that ourlives are going to get to a
place where we feel fulfilled.
From something that reallystemmed from something so hard
and terrible.
And so I just appreciate gettingto see you and see how happy you
are in your new endeavor andwhat you're doing.
And knowing that that came fromsomething really hard because I
(26:07):
think it's important forlisteners to know that if
they're in the hard part thatthings can get better from here.
Adam (26:14):
I appreciate that.
Thank you.
Mandy (26:16):
Is there anything else that we didn't talk about that
you wanted to add?
Adam (26:20):
No, I think that's it.
And everybody come tobarryandwork.
com get the estate preparationpackage or at least read about
it.
Just like Amanda said, you know,things can happen at any time,
and trust me, if you'reorganized today, it is going to
make things so much easier onyou, your family, your loved
ones later, because the lastthing you want to do is what I
was doing in a hotel room, or ahospital room, rather.
(26:42):
I wish it was a hotel room.
In a hospital room, asking aboutpolicies because your dad was
trying to, like, wrap things up.
Spend time with your loved oneswhen you can, and not when you
have to.
Mandy (26:53):
I hope you enjoyed listening to Adam's story and
find his resources helpful foryou or someone you know.
His website is linked in theshow notes.
You may notice that our podcasthas a new feature called Fan
Mail, where you can text theshow with your questions,
comments, or reactions.
We would love to hear from you,and we will reply in our next
episode if you do.
As always, thank you so much forlistening.
(27:15):
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it, andas always, Visit RememberGrams
anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Stay tuned for our updatedwebsite, and thank you.
Have a wonderful day.
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