February 7, 2024 • 36 mins
Joined by writer and author Dr. Kelly S. Thompson, she shares openly about the tumultuous relationship she had with her sister Megan while her sister struggled with addiction, and then about reconnecting prior to losing Megan to cancer. Her story is layered with complex emotions and is one so many will relate to.
Kelly is the author of the following:
Still, I Cannot Save You, A memoir of sisterhood, love and letting go (Feb 14, 2023)
Girls Need Not Apply: Field Notes from the Forces (2019)
You can find her here:
kellysthompson.com
kelly@kellysthompson.com
www.facebook.com/KellySThompsonWritingandEditing
Twitter: KellyS_Thompson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping you support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
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(00:22):
every detail.
I'm so excited to introducetoday's guest.
Kelly S.
Thompson author of still, Icannot save you a memoir of
sisterhood love and letting go.
Which we will discuss today aswell as her first memoir girls
need not apply about sexualharassment within the military.
Kelly is also a mentor in themaster's in creative nonfiction
(00:45):
program at the university ofKing's college.
I purposely saved this interviewwith Kelly to be aired this week
so that it would fall near mylittle brother.
James says birthday.
James would have turned 30 justa few days ago.
And one of the reasons Iconnected with Kelly story so
quickly was not just that shehad lost a sibling, but that her
(01:06):
sister, Megan had something incommon with James.
She also struggled withaddiction.
Now James and Megan storiesdiverge and are different in a
multitude of ways, but Kellyshares this part of Megan's
story just as openly as she doesevery part of her story.
A story that is layered withsome very difficult things.
(01:26):
I truly think anyone who hasloved and lost a family member
will enjoy Kelly's book.
But especially if you've everloved someone with all the
complexity that an addictionbrings.
And especially if you have everlost someone far too young to
cancer.
And especially if you have lovedsomeone who has ever been
abused.
(01:47):
This is a story for so many, andI'm honored to share it with you
here.
Like Kelly's book, title still.
I cannot save you.
Almost everyone who has lostsomeone, tragically has wished
they could do just that.
Save them.
Change the outcome.
But when we realized we couldnot, I hope we can look back at
the ways we loved them.
(02:07):
Something Kelly does sobeautifully here.
Let's take a lesson.
Kelly (02:12):
My sister and I grew up in a military family in Canada.
So when I was born, actually, mysister had cancer at the time.
She had kidney cancer when I wasborn.
So I was supposed to be born onher birthday, which was July
18th, but I was actually inducedseveral weeks early because she
had chemotherapy.
(02:33):
The week I was due.
Wow.
My parents still like to say Iwasn't a mistake, but I feel
like, I don't know if anyone'slike, I really could use some
more kids while I'm goingthrough this whole shebang, but,
my sister was that sister youdream of in a movie.
She defend, I was so shy andchronically sad.
(02:54):
I, I didn't know how to move inthe world in a way that had joy
or that levity that kids oftenhave.
And Megan did and because wegrew up in a military family.
People are always transitioningin and out of your life.
And.
She was so good at making newfriends and I was like standing
off in the corner like where'smy sister?
(03:16):
And she always welcomed me ineven though she was three years
older Which you know when you'regetting into ten is probably not
great hanging out with yourseven year old sister because I
was so anxious as well.
She would take All this time tomake up stories for me at night.
She was really patient with mewhen I would just be like
sobbing before bed.
Cause I was anxious to go to bedand I was anxious about school.
(03:37):
And I was anxious about what Iwas going to eat for lunch the
next day.
She was the most patient personin the house with me.
But it really changed withpuberty for Megan.
You know, it was, we used tojoke as we got older that.
We both had really bad selfesteem and we dealt with it
really differently.
Megan was like, I'm going to bewhatever men want me to be.
(03:59):
And then they will love me.
And I was like, I'm going toachieve whatever I can to make a
list of credentials that makesme feel good about myself.
And I don't know if either of uswere particularly successful.
But as she hit puberty, shereally was willing to do
anything that anyone introducedher to, so she really quickly
slipped into drugs quite young,you know, like I think 15, and
(04:23):
just stayed there, andescalated, and escalated, and
escalated.
The worst was crack cocaine forquite a while, and then opioids.
So, she eventually did amethadone clinic, and that
wasn't until we were, oof, shewas almost 30.
Oh, wow.
And so, We didn't talk, really,for about 15 years.
(04:47):
I just, we, we talked, but itwas so rare, and she called me
when she wanted or neededsomething.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I was so, I was so tired.
Mm hmm.
And I was also an officer in theCanadian Forces myself.
I joined when I was 18, after 911.
And my security clearance was atrisk because my finances were so
(05:10):
bad from helping her and helpingher and helping her midnight
phone calls, you know that theparents who are like, Oh, you
know, Kelly, you're so hard onyour sister and it was like, No,
you're just blind that she'saddicted to everything under the
sun.
Those were dark times.
Mandy (05:28):
Yeah, it really takes a toll.
It takes a toll on your psyche.
And especially, you know, ifyour sister was only 15 or so
and she started, that means youwere only 11 or 12.
I was 12.
13.
Yeah.
And I mean, that is a crucialtime, in our own development,
and to be constantly hypervigilant and worried about our
(05:50):
sibling and are they going to beokay and what are they getting
into and just.
I think it takes a bigger tollthan people realize on the other
children who are in the
Kelly (05:59):
house.
It does.
And especially because I wasalready so obsessed with
achieving and perfection.
And then I didn't have her asthat stabilizing line of a
Kelly, you're going to be fine.
Don't worry.
I'm with you to suddenly like, Idon't know where she is.
I don't know who she's with.
(06:19):
I don't know what she's doing.
One abusive, horrible partnerafter another.
Oh, it's devastating to watchsomeone you love break
themselves and to know that youcan't do anything about it.
And I think that was the hardestthing was it was really divisive
for my family too, in terms ofmy parents, because my parents
(06:39):
just enabled her and bailed herout over and over and over
again.
And I just wouldn't, I was so, Iwas so struggling with my own
mental health, especially, youknow, once I'm in my.
Twenties and I'm in the militaryand I'm having a horrible time
and I'm being harassed at everycorner and I'm so miserable.
(07:02):
I didn't know how to keep goingwhile it was like, you know,
they say you got to put on yourown oxygen mask.
It was like I needed my own andthere just wasn't enough air to
keep her going at the same time.
I needed her to do it herself,but she acknowledged that when
she got older, which was prettyamazing on her part.
(07:23):
You know, to have thatawareness.
And so special to
Mandy (07:25):
be able to have that recognition for you, to have
that validation that sheunderstood where you were coming
from and why the two of youbecame so distant in that time.
Not everybody, I think, getsthat kind of
Kelly (07:38):
closure.
You know, I, 100%, and I writeabout it in my, in my book.
We had been.
You know, spending more timetogether because she got clean,
and then she had a child, andshe loved being a mom, it's all
she ever wanted, and she wasabout to get married, and we
have this night where I take herout, but our relationship is
(07:59):
pretty surface level at thispoint, you know, it's kind of
like, we're both a bit nervousto trust one another, but she
was so She wanted it so bad andI was at a point where I was
like, I don't need you anymoreand I'm scared to let you back
because it always burns me.
And my parents were so quick toforgive her and there was a part
of me that was really bitterabout it, which I realize sounds
(08:22):
super childish, but it was likeshe broke us and I was, I was so
angry, which was my ownjudgmental.
Crappiness, you know, like I, Ihadn't done my own work yet and
read enough about addiction tounderstand enough either, but we
got into the car that night andshe was all emotional because
she's a little bit drunk becauseit's our little bachelorette
(08:44):
party for two people and we getin the car and she is like, I
was so horrible to you and Ilied so much and I stole from
you and I was, I'm so sorry Iwasn't there all the time.
Wow.
And every other apology she'dever given was always qualified
somehow, like, but I wasdepressed, but I had low self
esteem and I was like, eat icecream like the rest of us, you
know, like this is how we gowith it.
(09:06):
So that night changed usforever.
Wow.
It was, it was like both of usowning how horrible we'd been to
one another.
And you know, when you're young,you're just so self absorbed.
Like at that point, I'm in mylate 20s, she's in her early
30s, we've, we learned and welearned, yeah, we learned, and
(09:27):
we worked towards educatingourselves to be better people,
and it let us meet up in themiddle.
That was a pretty beautifulthing.
Yeah, I love that.
Mandy (09:35):
Yeah.
And I can see why you put upprotective barriers around
yourself in that time and werehesitant to connect fully again
because We learn over time whenyou give and give and give, and
then the same thing happens.
It's difficult to, once somebodyis making a change, to fully
embrace it because you'reprotecting yourself from the
(09:57):
pain of it all happening again.
But I'm so glad that you andMegan were able to reconcile and
you were able to be a part ofher baby's life.
And I know after thatreconciliation, things.
Took a downhill turn.
Can you share what happened fromthere?
Kelly (10:16):
Megan married a partner who, like almost every other
partner she'd had, was just nota great person.
Very abusive, very chronicallyabusive in a multitude of ways.
So that was really hard towatch, and it was hard to,
again, not be mad at her becauseI was seeing my nephew and
(10:37):
hearing my nephew say things tome.
I don't think my dad likes mevery much, you know, when he got
a bit older, and it's like, whatdo you do with but then Megan,
what it was a pretty horrificyear when I think about it, my
husband was and still is in theCanadian forces was deployed
overseas for a year.
(10:58):
And during that time Megan waspregnant.
And.
Had been quite sick and, and inand out of hospital a few times
with, with bowel obstructions,which she had been with her
first child as well.
But we thought it was justanother bowel obstruction
because she had kidney cancer,so she had a lot of scar tissue
in her gut where the baby'strying to grow.
(11:20):
But it turned out she gotdiagnosed with cancer the day
after the baby came quite early.
And the baby was hiding a verylarge tumor of a very rare form
of cancer.
They now suspect that cancer wascaused by all the radiation she
had as a, as a child.
And on the same day, I alsofound out that my odds of having
(11:42):
children were very slim and myhusband's overseas and not home.
You know, I go to visit her inthe hospital and I'm trying to
just like, and, and this is myfavorite scene in the book,
actually, because I go to visither and I'm trying to make her
feel better and I'm going to dyeher hair and I'm going to, and
we laughed and we had like thisgreat time and I see my niece
(12:02):
and I think this is why we keepgoing right?
Like we keep going becausethere's this next generation and
you want to give them all thethings that you didn't have.
And I keep seeing my niece andmy nephew and thinking, you
know, They're going to have eachother and then it all just
exploded.
The cancer was terminal.
It was a year of treatment thatwas really fruitless, which
(12:25):
realistically knowing the kindof cancer we knew, I knew, and
my mom's a nurse, so my momknew, but it's like, we didn't
talk about it.
So it was this year of.
really horrific treatment, majorsurgery, and all of this while
she's just being so,horrifically abused.
And once she died, about 16months later, she died So she
(12:49):
leaves behind a four year oldand a 16 month old baby, and I
find all these recordings on herphone of her, of her husband
saying things like, I'm gonna,I'm gonna make sure they don't
remember you, and why don't youjust hurry up and die, because
this is just like a waste of mytime, or you know, we're trying
(13:09):
to plan her funeral with her,and he calls one day and says
he's really tired and isn'tgoing to make it over, and it
was just like, I don't know whatwas worse, the fact that she was
dying, the fact that I knew thatwhen she was gone, they would
very much limit my access tothem, or watching her die while
having that grief layered amillion times by not being loved
(13:35):
the way she, so, like, all shewanted in life was to be loved
well, and I couldn't, it waslike that was the thing I
couldn't feel for her, and Ithink that broke me.
Mandy (13:47):
the unfairness of it, and not that life is in any way
fair, but for someone to gothrough over a decade of
fighting an addiction that couldhave taken her life at any time,
right?
And, and then fought her wayback to sobriety.
And then she had kids and becamea mom and, and reconciled your
(14:10):
relationship and to feel like.
We made it, you know, we gotthrough all of this terrible
hard stuff together and we'rehere and then to be dealt this
blow that that takes it all awayagain.
I imagine that was very, verydifficult.
Did you have anger when it cameto that and feel like the
universe just not not a
Kelly (14:31):
just place?
No, I think, you know, we're afamily of cancer.
My mom's had cancer.
My mom has multiple sclerosisnow that's very advanced.
My dad's had cancer.
Megan had two kinds of cancer.
I think my idea of that kind offairness or karma paying off in
some way, these are justhorrible life things and we try
(14:55):
to keep going.
Even, you know, when she diedand people would say, aren't you
glad that you, like, reconciledwith her so that you don't feel
bad now that she's gone?
I would have been devastated tolose her at any point, but I
felt very comfortable with thechoices I was making at the time
and I feel comfortable with theones that I made at the end
because regardless they were allmade in love, you know, like I
(15:19):
loved her really well.
And I think that's all we canreally do is you love your
people well, and it's nevergoing to turn out like we hoped
it would.
Do I wish we had more time?
100%.
But man, did we ever make thattime?
Magic.
I miss her.
One
Mandy (15:37):
of the, I know.
Kelly (15:38):
I cry at every interview.
And here I am.
Yeah.
No.
Mandy (15:45):
I get it.
One of the parts of your bookthat I thought was interesting
is you talked about how you andMegan coped with things
differently.
So she was more of an avoiderand I can relate to that too
sometimes, like I will avoidlistening to a voicemail or
opening an email because I knowthat it's going to bring stress
(16:06):
and I feel like if I can justnot look at it, then I don't
have to deal with that.
And then you talked aboutyourself and how you're.
information gatherer and thathelps you and you like to know
everything.
And so when that sort ofcollides, when it's her, it's
her prognosis and her illness,and you so desperately want that
(16:27):
information, but she wasn'tready to be talking about that
kind of stuff.
I, I can just imagine those twothings feeling really difficult.
Kelly (16:36):
I think in a way though, it also made it an honor that
she always wanted me at all theappointments to like my dad,
bless his heart is, is like abit of a pushy individual as a
35 year military veteran.
And my mom is very like medicaland clinical as a nurse.
So sometimes you're like, geez,you know, there's emotion in
(16:58):
this, which is her way ofdealing with it.
Megan and I were tender littlehearts.
And we used to, we used to sayto each other, like, how did we
happen?
How did we happen in our twoparents?
Where do we come from?
We made a lot of space for eachother in those really terrifying
moments to just feel how wefelt.
(17:20):
And I think she knew with me,you know, it was hard because
with my parents, we were bothtrying to protect my parents
from it, from an element.
Like my parents are losing theirchild.
And I try to think about like,what must that have been like
with me?
She knew she could just.
Let it rip, you know, whateverit felt at that time, whatever
was really scaring her, but italso kind of left me like, I had
(17:43):
my husband who's prettyspectacular.
But I often felt like I wouldjust get to my dog and just bury
my face in the dog and be like,I don't, I mean my husband was
deployed for half of thishorribleness, and you just kind
of keep putting one foot infront of the other.
But we definitely had differentways of approaching it, but I
had to respect hers becauseshe's the person dying and
(18:05):
leaving behind children.
And it also makes a lot of thosereally sticky conversations
hard, like, Hey, your husband'shorrible and abusive.
Can you do something about it?
But, but how do you ask someoneto do something about it when
they're dying and they just wantto get to the business of dying,
which is some hard work.
Right.
And I, Oh gosh, I keep when I,even when I talk about it and
(18:25):
think back to it, I think.
How do we do it?
Like, how do we get to the otherside still breathing?
I don't know.
Dogs.
We do it with dogs.
Dogs are the best.
As I say with mine snoringbehind me right now,
Mandy (18:40):
it is the best view while we're having this talk.
He looks so
Kelly (18:45):
cozy.
He's not living it rough overhere.
Yeah.
Mandy (18:50):
So how did you navigate that situation with her husband
and are you able to start arelationship with your niece and
nephew?
Kelly (18:58):
I don't think we navigated it very well.
I have a lot of compassion formental illness, a lot.
I struggle with depression andanxiety every day.
I talk a lot about it in thebook.
But sometimes I feel like we useit as a scapegoat for just not
being there.
Not behaving well.
Since the book came out, which Iknew was a risk, I have had very
(19:19):
limited access to my niece andnephew.
I actually haven't spoken tothem since the book came out in
February.
Oh, man.
I send gifts.
I send a card every month.
I send things for Halloween.
I think they fear I will attemptto alienate.
Them from their father, which Iwould never in a million years
do right?
(19:39):
Megan asked me to write thisbook though.
And I I hold that as like thething to keep me going because
Sometimes I think she asked meto do it because she didn't feel
like she could say the thingsthat needed to be said But you
know when my nephew's telling methings like I don't think my
daddy likes me very much.
They already know They aremostly raised by their
(20:02):
grandmother By my sister'smother in law so I have to just
accept the risk that I took inpublishing the book, but I
remember meeting with a editoronce and the editor said, you
know, bullies don't always getto win.
And a lot of that darkness liesin the shadows and that's where
my sister left it.
And when I found thoserecordings, when I found
(20:24):
evidence of physical violence.
I refuse to be quiet and I owethat to her.
I think my sister was reallylittle, like physically little
and I am not you know, I'm likefive, seven, five, eight, I'm
170 pounds.
I'm not tiny.
Megan was five foot one and likethis little part of a thing and
(20:47):
I will go down protecting herprotecting her legacy of just
like.
Of love.
So, no, I, I don't get to seethem very often.
When I have seen them sinceMegan died, I am supervised, but
I don't care.
Supervise me.
Like, I just, I want to playgrocery store with them and
(21:07):
dress up with them.
And tickle them, you knowthey're now nine and six, which
blows my mind.
And
Mandy (21:15):
someday they're going to be adults and you're going to be
there and they're going to beable to talk to you about their
mom in ways that maybe theyhaven't been able to talk to
other people openly.
So you're giving them a
Kelly (21:28):
gift later.
Yeah.
I think they'll come find me.
You know, when I saw my nephewin February, And it was right, I
was actually in Ontario becausemy, my book was coming out.
And so I was visiting my parentswho lived close to the kids at
the time.
And, and my nephew picked up thebook and he flipped to the back
and he saw the photo of mysister and I, and he said, Hey,
(21:49):
that's my mom.
And I said, yeah.
And then he says reallysuspicious, like, like, Auntie,
did you just make this forGrandpa or are there more
copies?
So happy, he was alreadydubious, like, are you self
publishing this in yourbasement?
And I said, there are morecopies.
And he said, will you save meone?
And I'll save him one.
(22:09):
I know he'll come find me.
I, I grieve that loss prettybad.
I think that's part of the thingis like the grief is just never,
it doesn't, I mean, grief neverends for someone we love, but
the layers and ramifications ofit have kept going in such
spider cracks that I'm just,gosh, it's exhausting.
I'm a mess on this interview.
(22:30):
I am sorry.
Mandy (22:32):
You know, I can relate when I talk about my story, I
tear up too, and when I write,when I read, actually, my own
writing about my story, I alsocry when I read it, which is so
sad.
It's mind blowing to me, I don'tknow if you, sometimes, I
wondered that when you werereading your audiobook, because
you are the narrator of it, andI wondered if you had to do
(22:52):
multiple takes, because when Isometimes read the hardest parts
of my book, I start to cry.
Which is so interesting that wecan make ourselves cry with our
own words that we've readmultiple times.
But we'll get back to
Kelly (23:05):
the book.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, I tell ya, that audiobook.
I mean, there were times I wasoften surprised by things I
thought would be really, reallyhard, like the scene where she
died and, and, and my scenewhere Megan dies, because I was
also studying, writing aboutgrief at this time.
It was very important to me thatthat scene be really like in the
(23:25):
moment.
So it's really step by step andyou're there.
And I thought, Oh, this will bethe hardest.
It was not, it was little thingslike.
There's this one line that it'ssuch a special sort of pain to
love someone you don't like verymuch.
Yes.
Yes.
And I had to like, I had to walkout and go to the, and I, I
(23:45):
mean, you're in like, there's900 people who are there waiting
on you, right?
In an audio book, they're like,there's the producer.
There's the, there's the soundbooth guy.
There's like the person who'sbringing you water.
There's the director.
And I'm like, I need to go sitin the bathroom and sob for 15
minutes and then come back andsound like snot.
But I mean, it's just, but alsothis is what makes stories
palpable, right?
Like this is why I love what Ido.
(24:07):
This wasn't my first memoir.
Like, this is.
This is where I feel at homebecause I see the power of
change and I also see the powerof what it means to sit with a
story that is in some way likeyour own and to feel so
validated by that.
It's like, oh yes, I'm not theonly person who feels this like
really special hurt.
(24:29):
Yeah, that's helpful.
I don't know why it's helpful,but it
Mandy (24:33):
is.
And I love that Megan, A, sheknew you were a writer and she
told you that she is yourbiggest fan and, you know,
believes in you and the skillthat you have with writing and
wanted you to write this book.
I think that in and of itself isreally special.
And I am wondering, when did youstart writing this book or when
(24:56):
did you know that you were goingto write about this?
How did that change?
Like, did you journal more oftenbecause you knew you were going
to eventually write about it andhow much space did you need?
I have a lot of
Kelly (25:07):
questions about this.
Yeah, it remains a miracle to methat I was like, you know what
makes sense in like the worsttime period of my life to do
more work.
Yeah, I'll do that.
I mean, it was, my first bookwas about to come out.
It came out almost exactly ayear to the day that Megan died.
So, you know, most of the workyou do on a book is.
(25:28):
Like, after the six monthsbefore the book comes out,
you're not really doinganything.
The publicity machine is sort ofdoing its thing and you're just
sitting there waiting.
So, I was like in the middle ofedits of the book while she was
dying.
And my publisher's like, we canwait, we can wait.
And it felt so important to me.
Like, no, I'm going to do itbecause I'm going to do it for
her.
But then, I was also taking alot of notes at the time.
(25:50):
Little jot notes.
Because any waking time I hadthat was to myself had to be
dedicated to work, because I wasreally lucky that because I'm an
author, and a veteran who'sinjured, I have a lot of
flexibility about where I spendmy time.
So I was able to be with Meganand my parents, but I didn't
have a lot of time to breathe.
(26:11):
And then, when you're so Sleepdeprived.
It's almost a joke.
And you're so stressed.
You could pretty much like noteat for the next six years.
And then to also be writing thisbook.
And then I was like, sure, I'mgoing to add another.
So I wrote some chapters whileshe was actively dying.
The one where she died, the act,the actual scene where she died,
(26:33):
I wrote a month after, and it'sone of very few scenes that
changed almost not at all.
There's also a scene where shehad been losing a lot of weight,
and it was the day we found outher cancer was terminal.
And we go to Victoria's Secretto pick out a bra, and I see her
in the mirror for the first timein a long time, and she's so
thin.
(26:53):
And I just like, I know wherethis is going.
And that scene was also writtenvery shortly after she died.
And also almost didn't change atall.
I think there was a reallypowerful thing that came from,
like, writing while I was livingit because the emotion was in my
throat.
And I might as well put itsomewhere.
And then sometimes that doesn'twork, right?
(27:14):
Like sometimes you're just soThat's
Mandy (27:16):
fascinating because a lot of writers will say you need the
distance before you can writewell about it.
Yeah, that's
Kelly (27:23):
fascinating.
Yeah, you know, there werecertain things I did need the
distance, or a really greateditor like I have, who would be
like, Kelly, reel it in, youknow, or Kelly, love you, know
this was horrible, but this isreally melodramatic and you
gotta like cut this sentence.
But I also really approachwriting like work and I'm pretty
non precious about things.
So I can be like, look, this is,you know, I'm, I'm over the top
(27:45):
here.
I'm getting kind of cliched overhere.
But I also then was like.
I'm gonna do a PhD.
This was three months after shedied that I applied, not even,
two months after she died Iapplied because I got obsessed
with reading books about otherpeople's grief because I wanted
to see an experience like mineand I couldn't find it.
I couldn't find one where theperson who died wasn't like
(28:07):
perfect.
Let's be realistic, like noteveryone who dies is great and I
wanted it really bad and it washard to find.
I found a couple, don't get mewrong.
So then I got really interestedin sort of grief narratives and
narrative therapy.
And so I ended up like signingup for a PhD out of it.
And I, and then I, I now think,gosh, Megan would have just like
(28:30):
fallen off her chair.
She's the kind of person whereshe would have been like, I
would have had this happen forme so that you could have had
this.
That's what she was like.
Mandy (28:39):
So you have completed your PhD since then?
Kelly (28:42):
Yeah.
Maybe two years ago, a year anda half, two years ago, I think.
You're, gosh, what is time?
Where are we?
It's the pandemic.
It also messed me up.
Yes.
But yeah, so I think, I think Idefended successfully in March,
a year and a half ago, February,a year almost two.
My gosh.
Yeah.
What is time?
But yes, so I've been Dr.
(29:02):
Kelly for a while now.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
My dad now, amazing.
That's, that's what my dad callsme, doc.
Actually, my family calls meMuu, which now I'm gonna share
with people.
So my dad calls me Dr.
Moo.
Which is super professional.
I love it.
Mandy (29:19):
Speaking of your dad, and your parents, how did they react
to this book?
Because this book is so deeplypersonal and talks about your
family in ways that most peopledon't share
Kelly (29:33):
with the world.
My parents are reallysupportive.
This is all I've ever wanted todo my whole life.
And when I joined the military,it was great.
I think there was a calm forthem.
Like, okay, she's gonna eat.
So that's great.
And then I got medicallyreleased and I wrote about
sexual harassment in themilitary.
And that was a really hard bookto write when your dad is a
(29:54):
veteran.
And I was very worried, forexample, how he would take that
one.
And my dad, I'm not someone, I'mnot willing to share my stuff
with you to give you permissionto cut things like that.
That's not how I operate.
And it's not how I incurred,because I also teach creative
nonfiction at a master's degreeprogram, so the integrity of my
story that's my story and I knowit to be mine is important to
(30:16):
me.
I have to trust my writing to doits hard work.
Like, I have to trust that I'mgoing to be good enough at this
where I'm going to show thenuance of people.
Because You know, we containmultitudes.
We're good and we're bad andwe're nice and we're mean.
And I think the fact that I lookat my own ugly parts on a page
helps the other people who arein the book to be like, I'm
(30:38):
going to be looked at in thesame light.
My parents aren't always great.
But my parents are also great.
So they, my dad, we joke now hastaken up the role of a biggest
fan.
He stole the poster from myfirst book and had it mounted
and up in his garage now.
And I tell you, he will hawkthat book to you if you try to
(30:58):
cross in front of his house,like he will sell it to you.
So he's definitely like, he goesto every independent bookstore
he sees and to make sure theyhave it.
And if not, he tells them.
You should bring it in.
But my dad's like the marketingperson you want in your corner
for sure.
But I also knew this would be areally difficult book for them
to read.
(31:19):
You know, it's hard enough toread a book where you're a
character.
It's even harder to read a book,it's even harder to read a book
where a trauma you lived isplayed out.
You know, it was very mysteriousto them that I would choose.
To linger in this story, youknow, like, why do you want to
write about it?
Why do you want to sit with itwhen it was horrible the first
time?
(31:40):
Oh, I am mired in this anyway,is always my thing.
I am here in this garbage in themurk of grief.
Whether I want to sit andacknowledge it or not.
I might as well barf somethingout about it and try to make
some art and then hope someoneelse is going to take it and go,
Oh, my heart is here somewhere,you know, and yeah.
(32:00):
That's kind of the humanexperience, I think.
Mandy (32:03):
And there is something about writing that takes us back
to some of those experiences andyou kind of relive it in this
weird existential way.
And I think by revisiting it andby reliving it in your writing,
you're healing parts of yourselfand parts of your relationship
with whoever you're writingabout.
In ways that I don't think aretangible that we can't always
(32:26):
describe.
So I agree.
I have family who have said, Idon't think I want to read.
Your book, because I know whathappened and it was sad and I
don't want to go there again.
And I find that to be justfascinating that we all deal
with it in such different ways.
And every way is okay if peopledon't want to, to think about
(32:46):
the hard things.
I think that's okay, but thenyou're right.
There are readers out there whoare going to hold your book and
say, wow, yeah, me too.
And, and feel seen in ways thatthey hadn't.
Kelly (32:59):
Absolutely.
And I also, I would argue withmy therapist too.
I would say, look I can workthrough it here.
I can work through it on thepage or I can do both and
they're going to serve eachother.
So you know, the very nature ofnarrative therapy of like we
literally, when we write aboutsomething to better understand
it, we create new neuralpathways to get there.
(33:20):
That blows my mind.
But I also feel like in writing,I develop a gazillion times more
compassion, not just for theother characters, quote unquote,
in my book, but for me too, youknow, like often in a grief
experience, we carry some guilt,like I should have done this or
I didn't say this.
There's something about puttingit on a page and sort of sending
(33:42):
it out into the world where yougo, I own this and it's okay.
It's okay.
I didn't do it all perfectly.
None of us did.
Here we are anyways.
I sound like I'm much more zenabout it than I really am in
practicality.
You look very zen about it.
I, I think I do feel verycomfortable with if there's
(34:03):
anything that I feel like I tookfrom it.
You love well, you know, like Isaid before, I love well, I show
my love well, and I did itbefore she died and I will
continue to do it after in herhonor.
Mandy (34:16):
Wow.
Thank you so much for sharingMegan's story with us.
I Thank you.
I don't know.
I feel like I know her and Iknow you in ways that obviously
I wouldn't if I hadn't read yourbook.
And I'm actually in the middleof it right now, so I can't wait
to finish it.
But yeah, I just think you haveso much to give the world and,
and I honor your bravery inputting it out there, knowing
(34:38):
the backlash that could and didcome from it in some ways, and
knowing that it still has valuewell beyond that, and that it's
all going to work out the waythat it
Kelly (34:49):
should eventually.
Thank you.
And thank you for your hard workin this podcast.
This makes a difference topeople.
When I was looking for.
Varied grief experiences.
This is how I found it, right?
So I thank you.
Mandy (35:04):
Yeah, I think the more books, the more media, the more
we bring this out into the lightand talk about all the different
kinds of grief and all thedifferent kinds of reactions
that people have to theexperiences that are universal
and human, then the better oursociety will be instead of
ignoring it and pretending it'snot there.
Kelly (35:24):
Think of how proud your brother would be.
Thank you.
I know the story you're takingto make new meaning out of it.
I think that's
Mandy (35:31):
pretty special for Megan and James.
Kelly (35:34):
Yeah.
Maybe they're hanging outtogether.
They might be
I hope you enjoyed listening toKelly.
Share her story.
I listened to her book on audionarrated by Kelly herself.
And I felt like I already knewher before we sat down for the
interview.
But once we did the calm anddeeply authentic way shared,
left me incredibly grateful.
(35:55):
Links to her books and socialmedia sites will be found in the
show notes for today's journalprompt.
Right about the ways you lovedyour person?
Well, like always let thewriting lead you in whatever
direction it takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
(36:16):
Visit remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping you support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or
gave support box.
Shipping within the us is alwaysfree.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
(00:22):
every detail.
I'm so excited to introducetoday's guest.
Kelly S.
Thompson author of still, Icannot save you a memoir of
sisterhood love and letting go.
Which we will discuss today aswell as her first memoir girls
need not apply about sexualharassment within the military.
Kelly is also a mentor in themaster's in creative nonfiction
(00:45):
program at the university ofKing's college.
I purposely saved this interviewwith Kelly to be aired this week
so that it would fall near mylittle brother.
James says birthday.
James would have turned 30 justa few days ago.
And one of the reasons Iconnected with Kelly story so
quickly was not just that shehad lost a sibling, but that her
(01:06):
sister, Megan had something incommon with James.
She also struggled withaddiction.
Now James and Megan storiesdiverge and are different in a
multitude of ways, but Kellyshares this part of Megan's
story just as openly as she doesevery part of her story.
A story that is layered withsome very difficult things.
(01:26):
I truly think anyone who hasloved and lost a family member
will enjoy Kelly's book.
But especially if you've everloved someone with all the
complexity that an addictionbrings.
And especially if you have everlost someone far too young to
cancer.
And especially if you have lovedsomeone who has ever been
abused.
(01:47):
This is a story for so many, andI'm honored to share it with you
here.
Like Kelly's book, title still.
I cannot save you.
Almost everyone who has lostsomeone, tragically has wished
they could do just that.
Save them.
Change the outcome.
But when we realized we couldnot, I hope we can look back at
the ways we loved them.
(02:07):
Something Kelly does sobeautifully here.
Let's take a lesson.
Kelly (02:12):
My sister and I grew up in a military family in Canada.
So when I was born, actually, mysister had cancer at the time.
She had kidney cancer when I wasborn.
So I was supposed to be born onher birthday, which was July
18th, but I was actually inducedseveral weeks early because she
had chemotherapy.
(02:33):
The week I was due.
Wow.
My parents still like to say Iwasn't a mistake, but I feel
like, I don't know if anyone'slike, I really could use some
more kids while I'm goingthrough this whole shebang, but,
my sister was that sister youdream of in a movie.
She defend, I was so shy andchronically sad.
(02:54):
I, I didn't know how to move inthe world in a way that had joy
or that levity that kids oftenhave.
And Megan did and because wegrew up in a military family.
People are always transitioningin and out of your life.
And.
She was so good at making newfriends and I was like standing
off in the corner like where'smy sister?
(03:16):
And she always welcomed me ineven though she was three years
older Which you know when you'regetting into ten is probably not
great hanging out with yourseven year old sister because I
was so anxious as well.
She would take All this time tomake up stories for me at night.
She was really patient with mewhen I would just be like
sobbing before bed.
Cause I was anxious to go to bedand I was anxious about school.
(03:37):
And I was anxious about what Iwas going to eat for lunch the
next day.
She was the most patient personin the house with me.
But it really changed withpuberty for Megan.
You know, it was, we used tojoke as we got older that.
We both had really bad selfesteem and we dealt with it
really differently.
Megan was like, I'm going to bewhatever men want me to be.
(03:59):
And then they will love me.
And I was like, I'm going toachieve whatever I can to make a
list of credentials that makesme feel good about myself.
And I don't know if either of uswere particularly successful.
But as she hit puberty, shereally was willing to do
anything that anyone introducedher to, so she really quickly
slipped into drugs quite young,you know, like I think 15, and
(04:23):
just stayed there, andescalated, and escalated, and
escalated.
The worst was crack cocaine forquite a while, and then opioids.
So, she eventually did amethadone clinic, and that
wasn't until we were, oof, shewas almost 30.
Oh, wow.
And so, We didn't talk, really,for about 15 years.
(04:47):
I just, we, we talked, but itwas so rare, and she called me
when she wanted or neededsomething.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
And I was so, I was so tired.
Mm hmm.
And I was also an officer in theCanadian Forces myself.
I joined when I was 18, after 911.
And my security clearance was atrisk because my finances were so
(05:10):
bad from helping her and helpingher and helping her midnight
phone calls, you know that theparents who are like, Oh, you
know, Kelly, you're so hard onyour sister and it was like, No,
you're just blind that she'saddicted to everything under the
sun.
Those were dark times.
Mandy (05:28):
Yeah, it really takes a toll.
It takes a toll on your psyche.
And especially, you know, ifyour sister was only 15 or so
and she started, that means youwere only 11 or 12.
I was 12.
13.
Yeah.
And I mean, that is a crucialtime, in our own development,
and to be constantly hypervigilant and worried about our
(05:50):
sibling and are they going to beokay and what are they getting
into and just.
I think it takes a bigger tollthan people realize on the other
children who are in the
Kelly (05:59):
house.
It does.
And especially because I wasalready so obsessed with
achieving and perfection.
And then I didn't have her asthat stabilizing line of a
Kelly, you're going to be fine.
Don't worry.
I'm with you to suddenly like, Idon't know where she is.
I don't know who she's with.
(06:19):
I don't know what she's doing.
One abusive, horrible partnerafter another.
Oh, it's devastating to watchsomeone you love break
themselves and to know that youcan't do anything about it.
And I think that was the hardestthing was it was really divisive
for my family too, in terms ofmy parents, because my parents
(06:39):
just enabled her and bailed herout over and over and over
again.
And I just wouldn't, I was so, Iwas so struggling with my own
mental health, especially, youknow, once I'm in my.
Twenties and I'm in the militaryand I'm having a horrible time
and I'm being harassed at everycorner and I'm so miserable.
(07:02):
I didn't know how to keep goingwhile it was like, you know,
they say you got to put on yourown oxygen mask.
It was like I needed my own andthere just wasn't enough air to
keep her going at the same time.
I needed her to do it herself,but she acknowledged that when
she got older, which was prettyamazing on her part.
(07:23):
You know, to have thatawareness.
And so special to
Mandy (07:25):
be able to have that recognition for you, to have
that validation that sheunderstood where you were coming
from and why the two of youbecame so distant in that time.
Not everybody, I think, getsthat kind of
Kelly (07:38):
closure.
You know, I, 100%, and I writeabout it in my, in my book.
We had been.
You know, spending more timetogether because she got clean,
and then she had a child, andshe loved being a mom, it's all
she ever wanted, and she wasabout to get married, and we
have this night where I take herout, but our relationship is
(07:59):
pretty surface level at thispoint, you know, it's kind of
like, we're both a bit nervousto trust one another, but she
was so She wanted it so bad andI was at a point where I was
like, I don't need you anymoreand I'm scared to let you back
because it always burns me.
And my parents were so quick toforgive her and there was a part
of me that was really bitterabout it, which I realize sounds
(08:22):
super childish, but it was likeshe broke us and I was, I was so
angry, which was my ownjudgmental.
Crappiness, you know, like I, Ihadn't done my own work yet and
read enough about addiction tounderstand enough either, but we
got into the car that night andshe was all emotional because
she's a little bit drunk becauseit's our little bachelorette
(08:44):
party for two people and we getin the car and she is like, I
was so horrible to you and Ilied so much and I stole from
you and I was, I'm so sorry Iwasn't there all the time.
Wow.
And every other apology she'dever given was always qualified
somehow, like, but I wasdepressed, but I had low self
esteem and I was like, eat icecream like the rest of us, you
know, like this is how we gowith it.
(09:06):
So that night changed usforever.
Wow.
It was, it was like both of usowning how horrible we'd been to
one another.
And you know, when you're young,you're just so self absorbed.
Like at that point, I'm in mylate 20s, she's in her early
30s, we've, we learned and welearned, yeah, we learned, and
(09:27):
we worked towards educatingourselves to be better people,
and it let us meet up in themiddle.
That was a pretty beautifulthing.
Yeah, I love that.
Mandy (09:35):
Yeah.
And I can see why you put upprotective barriers around
yourself in that time and werehesitant to connect fully again
because We learn over time whenyou give and give and give, and
then the same thing happens.
It's difficult to, once somebodyis making a change, to fully
embrace it because you'reprotecting yourself from the
(09:57):
pain of it all happening again.
But I'm so glad that you andMegan were able to reconcile and
you were able to be a part ofher baby's life.
And I know after thatreconciliation, things.
Took a downhill turn.
Can you share what happened fromthere?
Kelly (10:16):
Megan married a partner who, like almost every other
partner she'd had, was just nota great person.
Very abusive, very chronicallyabusive in a multitude of ways.
So that was really hard towatch, and it was hard to,
again, not be mad at her becauseI was seeing my nephew and
(10:37):
hearing my nephew say things tome.
I don't think my dad likes mevery much, you know, when he got
a bit older, and it's like, whatdo you do with but then Megan,
what it was a pretty horrificyear when I think about it, my
husband was and still is in theCanadian forces was deployed
overseas for a year.
(10:58):
And during that time Megan waspregnant.
And.
Had been quite sick and, and inand out of hospital a few times
with, with bowel obstructions,which she had been with her
first child as well.
But we thought it was justanother bowel obstruction
because she had kidney cancer,so she had a lot of scar tissue
in her gut where the baby'strying to grow.
(11:20):
But it turned out she gotdiagnosed with cancer the day
after the baby came quite early.
And the baby was hiding a verylarge tumor of a very rare form
of cancer.
They now suspect that cancer wascaused by all the radiation she
had as a, as a child.
And on the same day, I alsofound out that my odds of having
(11:42):
children were very slim and myhusband's overseas and not home.
You know, I go to visit her inthe hospital and I'm trying to
just like, and, and this is myfavorite scene in the book,
actually, because I go to visither and I'm trying to make her
feel better and I'm going to dyeher hair and I'm going to, and
we laughed and we had like thisgreat time and I see my niece
(12:02):
and I think this is why we keepgoing right?
Like we keep going becausethere's this next generation and
you want to give them all thethings that you didn't have.
And I keep seeing my niece andmy nephew and thinking, you
know, They're going to have eachother and then it all just
exploded.
The cancer was terminal.
It was a year of treatment thatwas really fruitless, which
(12:25):
realistically knowing the kindof cancer we knew, I knew, and
my mom's a nurse, so my momknew, but it's like, we didn't
talk about it.
So it was this year of.
really horrific treatment, majorsurgery, and all of this while
she's just being so,horrifically abused.
And once she died, about 16months later, she died So she
(12:49):
leaves behind a four year oldand a 16 month old baby, and I
find all these recordings on herphone of her, of her husband
saying things like, I'm gonna,I'm gonna make sure they don't
remember you, and why don't youjust hurry up and die, because
this is just like a waste of mytime, or you know, we're trying
(13:09):
to plan her funeral with her,and he calls one day and says
he's really tired and isn'tgoing to make it over, and it
was just like, I don't know whatwas worse, the fact that she was
dying, the fact that I knew thatwhen she was gone, they would
very much limit my access tothem, or watching her die while
having that grief layered amillion times by not being loved
(13:35):
the way she, so, like, all shewanted in life was to be loved
well, and I couldn't, it waslike that was the thing I
couldn't feel for her, and Ithink that broke me.
Mandy (13:47):
the unfairness of it, and not that life is in any way
fair, but for someone to gothrough over a decade of
fighting an addiction that couldhave taken her life at any time,
right?
And, and then fought her wayback to sobriety.
And then she had kids and becamea mom and, and reconciled your
(14:10):
relationship and to feel like.
We made it, you know, we gotthrough all of this terrible
hard stuff together and we'rehere and then to be dealt this
blow that that takes it all awayagain.
I imagine that was very, verydifficult.
Did you have anger when it cameto that and feel like the
universe just not not a
Kelly (14:31):
just place?
No, I think, you know, we're afamily of cancer.
My mom's had cancer.
My mom has multiple sclerosisnow that's very advanced.
My dad's had cancer.
Megan had two kinds of cancer.
I think my idea of that kind offairness or karma paying off in
some way, these are justhorrible life things and we try
(14:55):
to keep going.
Even, you know, when she diedand people would say, aren't you
glad that you, like, reconciledwith her so that you don't feel
bad now that she's gone?
I would have been devastated tolose her at any point, but I
felt very comfortable with thechoices I was making at the time
and I feel comfortable with theones that I made at the end
because regardless they were allmade in love, you know, like I
(15:19):
loved her really well.
And I think that's all we canreally do is you love your
people well, and it's nevergoing to turn out like we hoped
it would.
Do I wish we had more time?
100%.
But man, did we ever make thattime?
Magic.
I miss her.
One
Mandy (15:37):
of the, I know.
Kelly (15:38):
I cry at every interview.
And here I am.
Yeah.
No.
Mandy (15:45):
I get it.
One of the parts of your bookthat I thought was interesting
is you talked about how you andMegan coped with things
differently.
So she was more of an avoiderand I can relate to that too
sometimes, like I will avoidlistening to a voicemail or
opening an email because I knowthat it's going to bring stress
(16:06):
and I feel like if I can justnot look at it, then I don't
have to deal with that.
And then you talked aboutyourself and how you're.
information gatherer and thathelps you and you like to know
everything.
And so when that sort ofcollides, when it's her, it's
her prognosis and her illness,and you so desperately want that
(16:27):
information, but she wasn'tready to be talking about that
kind of stuff.
I, I can just imagine those twothings feeling really difficult.
Kelly (16:36):
I think in a way though, it also made it an honor that
she always wanted me at all theappointments to like my dad,
bless his heart is, is like abit of a pushy individual as a
35 year military veteran.
And my mom is very like medicaland clinical as a nurse.
So sometimes you're like, geez,you know, there's emotion in
(16:58):
this, which is her way ofdealing with it.
Megan and I were tender littlehearts.
And we used to, we used to sayto each other, like, how did we
happen?
How did we happen in our twoparents?
Where do we come from?
We made a lot of space for eachother in those really terrifying
moments to just feel how wefelt.
(17:20):
And I think she knew with me,you know, it was hard because
with my parents, we were bothtrying to protect my parents
from it, from an element.
Like my parents are losing theirchild.
And I try to think about like,what must that have been like
with me?
She knew she could just.
Let it rip, you know, whateverit felt at that time, whatever
was really scaring her, but italso kind of left me like, I had
(17:43):
my husband who's prettyspectacular.
But I often felt like I wouldjust get to my dog and just bury
my face in the dog and be like,I don't, I mean my husband was
deployed for half of thishorribleness, and you just kind
of keep putting one foot infront of the other.
But we definitely had differentways of approaching it, but I
had to respect hers becauseshe's the person dying and
(18:05):
leaving behind children.
And it also makes a lot of thosereally sticky conversations
hard, like, Hey, your husband'shorrible and abusive.
Can you do something about it?
But, but how do you ask someoneto do something about it when
they're dying and they just wantto get to the business of dying,
which is some hard work.
Right.
And I, Oh gosh, I keep when I,even when I talk about it and
(18:25):
think back to it, I think.
How do we do it?
Like, how do we get to the otherside still breathing?
I don't know.
Dogs.
We do it with dogs.
Dogs are the best.
As I say with mine snoringbehind me right now,
Mandy (18:40):
it is the best view while we're having this talk.
He looks so
Kelly (18:45):
cozy.
He's not living it rough overhere.
Yeah.
Mandy (18:50):
So how did you navigate that situation with her husband
and are you able to start arelationship with your niece and
nephew?
Kelly (18:58):
I don't think we navigated it very well.
I have a lot of compassion formental illness, a lot.
I struggle with depression andanxiety every day.
I talk a lot about it in thebook.
But sometimes I feel like we useit as a scapegoat for just not
being there.
Not behaving well.
Since the book came out, which Iknew was a risk, I have had very
(19:19):
limited access to my niece andnephew.
I actually haven't spoken tothem since the book came out in
February.
Oh, man.
I send gifts.
I send a card every month.
I send things for Halloween.
I think they fear I will attemptto alienate.
Them from their father, which Iwould never in a million years
do right?
(19:39):
Megan asked me to write thisbook though.
And I I hold that as like thething to keep me going because
Sometimes I think she asked meto do it because she didn't feel
like she could say the thingsthat needed to be said But you
know when my nephew's telling methings like I don't think my
daddy likes me very much.
They already know They aremostly raised by their
(20:02):
grandmother By my sister'smother in law so I have to just
accept the risk that I took inpublishing the book, but I
remember meeting with a editoronce and the editor said, you
know, bullies don't always getto win.
And a lot of that darkness liesin the shadows and that's where
my sister left it.
And when I found thoserecordings, when I found
(20:24):
evidence of physical violence.
I refuse to be quiet and I owethat to her.
I think my sister was reallylittle, like physically little
and I am not you know, I'm likefive, seven, five, eight, I'm
170 pounds.
I'm not tiny.
Megan was five foot one and likethis little part of a thing and
(20:47):
I will go down protecting herprotecting her legacy of just
like.
Of love.
So, no, I, I don't get to seethem very often.
When I have seen them sinceMegan died, I am supervised, but
I don't care.
Supervise me.
Like, I just, I want to playgrocery store with them and
(21:07):
dress up with them.
And tickle them, you knowthey're now nine and six, which
blows my mind.
And
Mandy (21:15):
someday they're going to be adults and you're going to be
there and they're going to beable to talk to you about their
mom in ways that maybe theyhaven't been able to talk to
other people openly.
So you're giving them a
Kelly (21:28):
gift later.
Yeah.
I think they'll come find me.
You know, when I saw my nephewin February, And it was right, I
was actually in Ontario becausemy, my book was coming out.
And so I was visiting my parentswho lived close to the kids at
the time.
And, and my nephew picked up thebook and he flipped to the back
and he saw the photo of mysister and I, and he said, Hey,
(21:49):
that's my mom.
And I said, yeah.
And then he says reallysuspicious, like, like, Auntie,
did you just make this forGrandpa or are there more
copies?
So happy, he was alreadydubious, like, are you self
publishing this in yourbasement?
And I said, there are morecopies.
And he said, will you save meone?
And I'll save him one.
(22:09):
I know he'll come find me.
I, I grieve that loss prettybad.
I think that's part of the thingis like the grief is just never,
it doesn't, I mean, grief neverends for someone we love, but
the layers and ramifications ofit have kept going in such
spider cracks that I'm just,gosh, it's exhausting.
I'm a mess on this interview.
(22:30):
I am sorry.
Mandy (22:32):
You know, I can relate when I talk about my story, I
tear up too, and when I write,when I read, actually, my own
writing about my story, I alsocry when I read it, which is so
sad.
It's mind blowing to me, I don'tknow if you, sometimes, I
wondered that when you werereading your audiobook, because
you are the narrator of it, andI wondered if you had to do
(22:52):
multiple takes, because when Isometimes read the hardest parts
of my book, I start to cry.
Which is so interesting that wecan make ourselves cry with our
own words that we've readmultiple times.
But we'll get back to
Kelly (23:05):
the book.
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, I tell ya, that audiobook.
I mean, there were times I wasoften surprised by things I
thought would be really, reallyhard, like the scene where she
died and, and, and my scenewhere Megan dies, because I was
also studying, writing aboutgrief at this time.
It was very important to me thatthat scene be really like in the
(23:25):
moment.
So it's really step by step andyou're there.
And I thought, Oh, this will bethe hardest.
It was not, it was little thingslike.
There's this one line that it'ssuch a special sort of pain to
love someone you don't like verymuch.
Yes.
Yes.
And I had to like, I had to walkout and go to the, and I, I
(23:45):
mean, you're in like, there's900 people who are there waiting
on you, right?
In an audio book, they're like,there's the producer.
There's the, there's the soundbooth guy.
There's like the person who'sbringing you water.
There's the director.
And I'm like, I need to go sitin the bathroom and sob for 15
minutes and then come back andsound like snot.
But I mean, it's just, but alsothis is what makes stories
palpable, right?
Like this is why I love what Ido.
(24:07):
This wasn't my first memoir.
Like, this is.
This is where I feel at homebecause I see the power of
change and I also see the powerof what it means to sit with a
story that is in some way likeyour own and to feel so
validated by that.
It's like, oh yes, I'm not theonly person who feels this like
really special hurt.
(24:29):
Yeah, that's helpful.
I don't know why it's helpful,but it
Mandy (24:33):
is.
And I love that Megan, A, sheknew you were a writer and she
told you that she is yourbiggest fan and, you know,
believes in you and the skillthat you have with writing and
wanted you to write this book.
I think that in and of itself isreally special.
And I am wondering, when did youstart writing this book or when
(24:56):
did you know that you were goingto write about this?
How did that change?
Like, did you journal more oftenbecause you knew you were going
to eventually write about it andhow much space did you need?
I have a lot of
Kelly (25:07):
questions about this.
Yeah, it remains a miracle to methat I was like, you know what
makes sense in like the worsttime period of my life to do
more work.
Yeah, I'll do that.
I mean, it was, my first bookwas about to come out.
It came out almost exactly ayear to the day that Megan died.
So, you know, most of the workyou do on a book is.
(25:28):
Like, after the six monthsbefore the book comes out,
you're not really doinganything.
The publicity machine is sort ofdoing its thing and you're just
sitting there waiting.
So, I was like in the middle ofedits of the book while she was
dying.
And my publisher's like, we canwait, we can wait.
And it felt so important to me.
Like, no, I'm going to do itbecause I'm going to do it for
her.
But then, I was also taking alot of notes at the time.
(25:50):
Little jot notes.
Because any waking time I hadthat was to myself had to be
dedicated to work, because I wasreally lucky that because I'm an
author, and a veteran who'sinjured, I have a lot of
flexibility about where I spendmy time.
So I was able to be with Meganand my parents, but I didn't
have a lot of time to breathe.
(26:11):
And then, when you're so Sleepdeprived.
It's almost a joke.
And you're so stressed.
You could pretty much like noteat for the next six years.
And then to also be writing thisbook.
And then I was like, sure, I'mgoing to add another.
So I wrote some chapters whileshe was actively dying.
The one where she died, the act,the actual scene where she died,
(26:33):
I wrote a month after, and it'sone of very few scenes that
changed almost not at all.
There's also a scene where shehad been losing a lot of weight,
and it was the day we found outher cancer was terminal.
And we go to Victoria's Secretto pick out a bra, and I see her
in the mirror for the first timein a long time, and she's so
thin.
(26:53):
And I just like, I know wherethis is going.
And that scene was also writtenvery shortly after she died.
And also almost didn't change atall.
I think there was a reallypowerful thing that came from,
like, writing while I was livingit because the emotion was in my
throat.
And I might as well put itsomewhere.
And then sometimes that doesn'twork, right?
(27:14):
Like sometimes you're just soThat's
Mandy (27:16):
fascinating because a lot of writers will say you need the
distance before you can writewell about it.
Yeah, that's
Kelly (27:23):
fascinating.
Yeah, you know, there werecertain things I did need the
distance, or a really greateditor like I have, who would be
like, Kelly, reel it in, youknow, or Kelly, love you, know
this was horrible, but this isreally melodramatic and you
gotta like cut this sentence.
But I also really approachwriting like work and I'm pretty
non precious about things.
So I can be like, look, this is,you know, I'm, I'm over the top
(27:45):
here.
I'm getting kind of cliched overhere.
But I also then was like.
I'm gonna do a PhD.
This was three months after shedied that I applied, not even,
two months after she died Iapplied because I got obsessed
with reading books about otherpeople's grief because I wanted
to see an experience like mineand I couldn't find it.
I couldn't find one where theperson who died wasn't like
(28:07):
perfect.
Let's be realistic, like noteveryone who dies is great and I
wanted it really bad and it washard to find.
I found a couple, don't get mewrong.
So then I got really interestedin sort of grief narratives and
narrative therapy.
And so I ended up like signingup for a PhD out of it.
And I, and then I, I now think,gosh, Megan would have just like
(28:30):
fallen off her chair.
She's the kind of person whereshe would have been like, I
would have had this happen forme so that you could have had
this.
That's what she was like.
Mandy (28:39):
So you have completed your PhD since then?
Kelly (28:42):
Yeah.
Maybe two years ago, a year anda half, two years ago, I think.
You're, gosh, what is time?
Where are we?
It's the pandemic.
It also messed me up.
Yes.
But yeah, so I think, I think Idefended successfully in March,
a year and a half ago, February,a year almost two.
My gosh.
Yeah.
What is time?
But yes, so I've been Dr.
(29:02):
Kelly for a while now.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
My dad now, amazing.
That's, that's what my dad callsme, doc.
Actually, my family calls meMuu, which now I'm gonna share
with people.
So my dad calls me Dr.
Moo.
Which is super professional.
I love it.
Mandy (29:19):
Speaking of your dad, and your parents, how did they react
to this book?
Because this book is so deeplypersonal and talks about your
family in ways that most peopledon't share
Kelly (29:33):
with the world.
My parents are reallysupportive.
This is all I've ever wanted todo my whole life.
And when I joined the military,it was great.
I think there was a calm forthem.
Like, okay, she's gonna eat.
So that's great.
And then I got medicallyreleased and I wrote about
sexual harassment in themilitary.
And that was a really hard bookto write when your dad is a
(29:54):
veteran.
And I was very worried, forexample, how he would take that
one.
And my dad, I'm not someone, I'mnot willing to share my stuff
with you to give you permissionto cut things like that.
That's not how I operate.
And it's not how I incurred,because I also teach creative
nonfiction at a master's degreeprogram, so the integrity of my
story that's my story and I knowit to be mine is important to
(30:16):
me.
I have to trust my writing to doits hard work.
Like, I have to trust that I'mgoing to be good enough at this
where I'm going to show thenuance of people.
Because You know, we containmultitudes.
We're good and we're bad andwe're nice and we're mean.
And I think the fact that I lookat my own ugly parts on a page
helps the other people who arein the book to be like, I'm
(30:38):
going to be looked at in thesame light.
My parents aren't always great.
But my parents are also great.
So they, my dad, we joke now hastaken up the role of a biggest
fan.
He stole the poster from myfirst book and had it mounted
and up in his garage now.
And I tell you, he will hawkthat book to you if you try to
(30:58):
cross in front of his house,like he will sell it to you.
So he's definitely like, he goesto every independent bookstore
he sees and to make sure theyhave it.
And if not, he tells them.
You should bring it in.
But my dad's like the marketingperson you want in your corner
for sure.
But I also knew this would be areally difficult book for them
to read.
(31:19):
You know, it's hard enough toread a book where you're a
character.
It's even harder to read a book,it's even harder to read a book
where a trauma you lived isplayed out.
You know, it was very mysteriousto them that I would choose.
To linger in this story, youknow, like, why do you want to
write about it?
Why do you want to sit with itwhen it was horrible the first
time?
(31:40):
Oh, I am mired in this anyway,is always my thing.
I am here in this garbage in themurk of grief.
Whether I want to sit andacknowledge it or not.
I might as well barf somethingout about it and try to make
some art and then hope someoneelse is going to take it and go,
Oh, my heart is here somewhere,you know, and yeah.
(32:00):
That's kind of the humanexperience, I think.
Mandy (32:03):
And there is something about writing that takes us back
to some of those experiences andyou kind of relive it in this
weird existential way.
And I think by revisiting it andby reliving it in your writing,
you're healing parts of yourselfand parts of your relationship
with whoever you're writingabout.
In ways that I don't think aretangible that we can't always
(32:26):
describe.
So I agree.
I have family who have said, Idon't think I want to read.
Your book, because I know whathappened and it was sad and I
don't want to go there again.
And I find that to be justfascinating that we all deal
with it in such different ways.
And every way is okay if peopledon't want to, to think about
(32:46):
the hard things.
I think that's okay, but thenyou're right.
There are readers out there whoare going to hold your book and
say, wow, yeah, me too.
And, and feel seen in ways thatthey hadn't.
Kelly (32:59):
Absolutely.
And I also, I would argue withmy therapist too.
I would say, look I can workthrough it here.
I can work through it on thepage or I can do both and
they're going to serve eachother.
So you know, the very nature ofnarrative therapy of like we
literally, when we write aboutsomething to better understand
it, we create new neuralpathways to get there.
(33:20):
That blows my mind.
But I also feel like in writing,I develop a gazillion times more
compassion, not just for theother characters, quote unquote,
in my book, but for me too, youknow, like often in a grief
experience, we carry some guilt,like I should have done this or
I didn't say this.
There's something about puttingit on a page and sort of sending
(33:42):
it out into the world where yougo, I own this and it's okay.
It's okay.
I didn't do it all perfectly.
None of us did.
Here we are anyways.
I sound like I'm much more zenabout it than I really am in
practicality.
You look very zen about it.
I, I think I do feel verycomfortable with if there's
(34:03):
anything that I feel like I tookfrom it.
You love well, you know, like Isaid before, I love well, I show
my love well, and I did itbefore she died and I will
continue to do it after in herhonor.
Mandy (34:16):
Wow.
Thank you so much for sharingMegan's story with us.
I Thank you.
I don't know.
I feel like I know her and Iknow you in ways that obviously
I wouldn't if I hadn't read yourbook.
And I'm actually in the middleof it right now, so I can't wait
to finish it.
But yeah, I just think you haveso much to give the world and,
and I honor your bravery inputting it out there, knowing
(34:38):
the backlash that could and didcome from it in some ways, and
knowing that it still has valuewell beyond that, and that it's
all going to work out the waythat it
Kelly (34:49):
should eventually.
Thank you.
And thank you for your hard workin this podcast.
This makes a difference topeople.
When I was looking for.
Varied grief experiences.
This is how I found it, right?
So I thank you.
Mandy (35:04):
Yeah, I think the more books, the more media, the more
we bring this out into the lightand talk about all the different
kinds of grief and all thedifferent kinds of reactions
that people have to theexperiences that are universal
and human, then the better oursociety will be instead of
ignoring it and pretending it'snot there.
Kelly (35:24):
Think of how proud your brother would be.
Thank you.
I know the story you're takingto make new meaning out of it.
I think that's
Mandy (35:31):
pretty special for Megan and James.
Kelly (35:34):
Yeah.
Maybe they're hanging outtogether.
They might be
I hope you enjoyed listening toKelly.
Share her story.
I listened to her book on audionarrated by Kelly herself.
And I felt like I already knewher before we sat down for the
interview.
But once we did the calm anddeeply authentic way shared,
left me incredibly grateful.
(35:55):
Links to her books and socialmedia sites will be found in the
show notes for today's journalprompt.
Right about the ways you lovedyour person?
Well, like always let thewriting lead you in whatever
direction it takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
(36:16):
Visit remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
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