October 25, 2023 • 38 mins
When Jana lost her Mom at just 20 years old she was on the brink of adulthood, closing one chapter and beginning the next. We talk to her much later, 24 years after her mother's death and discuss all that has happened in that time- including her work as a psychotherapist and how her personal grief helped her validate and comfort others.
You can find Jana as the host of the Podcast, She Illuminated, or at her website, www.janafuchscoaching.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I am your host, Amanda Carnahanfrom remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping and support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box shippingwithin the us is always free.
And we treat each origin withspecial care.
Paying attention to everydetail.
(00:23):
Today, I'm joined by Jana Fuchs,host of the Shia eliminated
podcast.
Licensed psychotherapist founderof Chicago, relational therapy
and soul coach are burnt out.
Women Jana was on the very brinkof adulthood when she lost her
mom.
She went on to become apsychotherapist.
And today we talk about whatthose 24 years have been like
(00:43):
since her mother's death.
How it has shaped both herprofessional and personal life.
Let's take a lesson.
Jana (00:49):
So I was 17 when I had come home from the gym.
And I remember the house wasreally, it felt dark, at least
in my memory, the house was darkand I came home to my parents
(01:10):
sitting in our family room andjust seeming really kind of
like, sober and serious.
And I they explained to me thatthey had previously found a mass
in my mother's breast that theythought was potentially breast
cancer.
And It wasn't, but it actuallysignaled them to a cancerous
(01:34):
tumor endometrial cancer, whichis a type of uterine cancer.
And that was really like, Iwould call it the beginning of.
Chapter two of my life.
There's always like, and I feellike anyone who's gone through a
significant loss understandsthat it's kind of like you, I
think a lot of us think of ourlives and chapters.
(01:56):
So chapter one was my very kindof untouched unvarnished,
innocent childhood.
And you know, I had known oneother person.
A close family friend, my agewho had lost a parent and it was
kind of like a, I rememberhaving the thought at that age,
like when my friend, I was 11years old and she had lost her
(02:20):
parent and thinking How horribleand awful that must feel for her
and just kind of like waking upto that could be me, I guess,
one day but like thank God it'snot and I'm just gonna keep my
blinders on for now while I can.
Right.
But but then chapter twostarted.
That day of you know, becomingaware of my mother's diagnosis.
(02:43):
And she fought the good fightfor three years.
And.
Really didn't want to draw muchattention to herself.
She wanted to get her treatmentin the morning and go to work in
the afternoon and carry on asmuch normalcy as possible and
encouraged me to go do all thethings that a 17, 18, 19 year
(03:03):
old wants to do.
And so I went away to collegelike the rest of my friends
trying as best as I could topretend like everything was
normal.
And I think.
I also wanted to, respect mymom's wishes.
yeah.
That everything just seemednormal.
And so yeah, that's kind of whatI did until it became quite
(03:23):
apparent that she probably, sheprobably only had a few months
left to live.
And at that ti at that point Icame home from college to spend
that time with, with my mom athome in hospice.
So yeah, that was the beginningof chapter two.
Mandy (03:38):
Yeah, that's such a tough age to be at because you're at
like this brink of becoming anadult and finding this
independence that you haven'thad yet.
And it's such like an excitingtime and people are, you know.
Exploring who they are as anadult and then you just have
like this heavy weight on top ofyou that you know is happening
in the background and just Ifeel for you.
(04:00):
I think that transitional age isreally difficult.
Yeah,
Jana (04:04):
that emerging adulthood, you know, and yeah, I mean.
I was just talking about thisthis morning with my husband,
who he grew up not due to adeath of a parent, but his
parents divorced.
And he grew up the only male inhis household with two older
sisters and a mother.
And I grew up after my mom died.
(04:26):
I mean, yes, I was a youngadult, but I was still young and
I was the only.
Female and left in ourhousehold.
I had an older brother.
I have an older brother and adad.
And so, you know, just thismorning, my husband and I were
talking about like whensomething like that happens, and
you're the only person left ofthat kind of like gender, even
(04:46):
if you're the youngest in thefamily, which he is, and I am,
you kind of take on extra Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's one way to feel incontrol of the grief and to feel
like you are contributing toyour family because you take on
all the work of, of kind of likewhat comes with that gender
(05:08):
role, just inadvertently, that'sgreat.
It's kind of like what
Mandy (05:11):
happens, right?
It's almost subconscious the wayI think also people expect it
from you a little bit, right?
I mean, same thing happened tome when my mom died, where it
feels like, okay, now you're thesurrogate female in the family
who we're going to turn to fordecisions.
And it's, yeah, it's a reallydifficult place to be in, but
especially when you're 20.
(05:31):
What was that time period likefor you right after?
Losing your mom those few years
Jana (05:36):
after that.
Oh man, that was so rough.
And you know, it's all relative.
The way that everyone identifieswhat trauma means to them is
different.
But to me, that time felttraumatic.
Because I had gone from Being inthis really close knit, loving
(06:01):
family of four, right?
My mom, my dad, my brother, andmyself, my parents were high
school sweethearts.
They had a really nice,beautiful relationship.
They would hold hands all thetime, like just to my mom died.
And within a year, my brotherdecided to move cross country
(06:23):
with his band out to Californiafrom Philadelphia, where we all
grew up.
And my dad started datingsomeone and sold our childhood
home, the only home I'd everlived in besides my college
dorm.
And so I lost my mom.
I lost the idea of my parentsbeing the only two people for
each other.
(06:44):
I lost my childhood home.
And with it at the time.
Kind of felt like I lost a bitof myself because again in early
emerging adulthood.
It's like we're all trying tofigure out who we are anyway.
But to not have myself reflectedback in the way that like, A
(07:04):
mother, an attuned mother can doto not have that felt like my
anchor had been yanked out fromunder me and I didn't even have
a home anymore.
Right.
When I went back to college tofinish up because I took off a
semester when my mom died.
And so I went back the followingsemester to finish up my senior
year.
And and then when I would comehome on my breaks, it was like,
(07:28):
where did I, I didn't reallyhave a place to go home to.
So I would like stay withfriends because I didn't really
want to stay with my dad and hisnew girlfriend, soon to be wife.
I just wasn't, I was still ingrief.
I was still in grief.
Mandy (07:43):
Yeah.
So many of those are theselittle secondary losses that
people aren't considering.
That I think so many people,when you lose someone, there are
multiple losses that come withthat loss, like the loss of a
house you know, the loss ofrelationships and, you going
back to college even, and justfeeling like you have had, had
(08:04):
an experience that your peershaven't.
So it's almost like you'recoming back in this different
state or this differentperspective.
And, and also the losing of, youknow, you've called your mom,
like your anchor in this.
This person who can reflect backto you, and I think of it like a
roadmap, you know, our parentsare sort of the roadmap ahead of
us.
And yeah, see that that map andsuch a short period is scary to
(08:29):
look ahead and think like, isthat all I have left and, you
know, where do
Jana (08:32):
I go from here.
Yeah, yeah, it's I and when Isay that time felt traumatic for
me.
It's really interesting becauseeven just hearing myself talk,
like, you know, how I describedthat day of the diagnosis, it
was like very dark.
That's the imagery that I havearound that day of the
diagnosis.
But when I think back on thetime post, for that, like, first
(08:55):
year after my mom died I don'tremember it dark, but I like I
try to remember it and it's likeso blurry and like foggy and you
know, and I as a psychotherapistknow that when we have traumatic
experiences, we don't rememberthings and chronological.
(09:15):
Sequential order the way we kindof store memories, you know, in
every day, kind of mundane,neutral memories were able to
kind of retrieve those reallyeasily and often very vividly.
But when something traumatichappens to us, it's kind of all
fragmented.
And difficult to remember.
(09:37):
It's almost kind of like we haveamnesia around it.
And so that's kind of how Iremember that time.
And then for years afterwards, Iwould have these dreams that I
was.
I would have many differentkinds of dreams are about the
loss itself, but a recurring,really interesting dream that I
didn't piece together untilyears later was this recurring
(09:59):
dream that I was on arollercoaster and the ups and
downs.
And, and, and what I, what Imake of that dream is.
Yeah.
It was like my brain stilltrying to understand and process
your mom is in remission.
She's getting better.
She just needs this one more,like one more surgery.
Oh no, I'm so sorry.
(10:20):
The cancer is back.
No, no, no.
She's better go to college.
It's fine.
Go, you know, drive the fivehours up to school and just do
you be normal.
We're all going to be positive.
She's getting better.
Oh no, we're so sorry.
You know, she needs anothersurgery and the ups and downs
and.
The other piece that I shouldadd is that I never was told
(10:41):
about a specific prognosis.
So at the same time, even thoughmy father knew because he was a
physician, he kept that tohimself because he didn't want
to take away my mother's hopeand, and her fight.
Because that also kept her goinglonger.
And this was before Google.
(11:03):
So I couldn't Google it.
Right.
And so it was kind of thisalmost ignorance is bliss kind
of thing.
But that ignorance is blissthing kind of came back to haunt
me literally years later byhaving these dreams of feeling
so confused.
Mandy (11:16):
Right.
And almost like you can't trustwhat you know.
Right?
When someone says, Oh, like,it's okay, but you're afraid to
trust that.
And just like on the oppositeend, you know, things are not
okay.
But then part of you thinking,well, it will be again, because
it has been.
Jana (11:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Mandy (11:32):
It's interesting that, you know, you mentioned you're a
psychotherapist.
Is that something you had alwayswanted to do?
Like when you went into college?
Is that The major that you choseor did that shift somewhere for
you?
Jana (11:43):
So since I was as far the furthest back, I can remember it
becoming an idea for me, likethinking of it as a possibility
was when I was 11 at sleep awaycamp.
And there was another camperyoung, young girl in my bunk who
had come over from England andshe was really homesick and
(12:05):
having a hard time.
And I think some of the kidsMaybe weren't so nice to her.
I can't quite remember what theissues were, but I remember
spending like time and talkingto her and my counselor kind of
saying to me, you know, likeyou're so you're such as like a
natural listener, you would bean excellent therapist one day,
like you really helped her.
(12:26):
And it was kind of this like.
Wow, really?
Like that?
I could.
Yeah, maybe I could see myselfdoing that.
So that's like the earliest Ican remember.
And I was kind of always that,friend for people.
I'm just comfortable holdingspace and I'm an empath.
So I can Feel easily whatsomeone else might be feeling
(12:47):
and put put their feelings intocontext.
And so, when I was in college Istarted I did start out.
I chose the school.
I chose because it had a greatreputation and in the field
psychology.
And I dabbled in a bunch ofpsych courses, but when it came
time to declare my major wasduring one of the times that my
(13:09):
mother was on a downturn.
And I thought to myself, I amnot going to be ready to declare
myself as a psych major and goimmediately to grad school and
do more.
Right.
And it's like a whole 10 yeartrack ahead of me.
I, I cannot even fathom becauseI don't know what's going to
happen.
Tomorrow.
And so I had also taken a bunchof English classes.
(13:30):
I loved reading and literature.
And so I just declared myself anEnglish major and figured I
could circle back later topsych.
And that's exactly what I did.
Yeah.
Mandy (13:39):
One little thing that I think is so funny is that you
were looking to be a therapistwhen you were young, because I
feel like in our day and age.
Therapy was not what it is todaywhere like my kids know about
therapy and like people go totherapy and it's totally
normalized and everythingtotally as kids when we were
kids that was not the culture soi don't even know if i thought
(14:00):
about that as a career as achild i was thinking like
teacher you know right thetypical
Jana (14:05):
What's really interesting.
You say that you're absolutelyright.
And I mean, I'll, I don't knowabout you.
I'll just say my I'm 44.
And so, yeah, that was kind ofthe case.
It wasn't until after my momdied, really, that I engaged
with therapy and was like, thisis.
Such an important job I sorespected that first therapist I
(14:26):
had.
And she's the reason why I thinkI was like, I'm going back to
this.
I think I could do this.
But it turns out that samecounselor now I learned cause
Facebook, God bless Facebook.
Is, is bipolar and so sheprobably had experiences herself
as a, as a kid being in and outof therapy, I'm guessing.
(14:48):
And she was the one who, whotold me that.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (14:52):
It's fascinating to see how, how we weave through life
and find where we're going.
So how has grief affected you?
Come into play in your work aspsychotherapist.
I assume that this has come up alot for you working as a
therapist.
And like, how has that beenshaped by your experience with
your mom?
Jana (15:09):
Yeah.
So interesting.
It has, it comes up all thetime.
In my work as a therapist it'sinteresting for me.
It has made me maybesurprisingly to other people,
but it has made me comfortable,really comfortable with talking
about death and loss becauseI've been there.
(15:34):
I think if I had neverexperienced anything like that,
it could trigger me in adifferent kind.
Of a way.
And I know that might soundcounterintuitive, right?
That because it's happened tome, you know, wouldn't it upset
me to talk about, someone elsegoing through a similar
situation, but actually, no.
(15:54):
Because I've been there.
It was Awful.
It was traumatic and I survivedand I know that there's life on
the other side and not only lifeon the other side, but even the
potential for so much joy andgratitude.
And, you know, on that note, Thetiming of this, this episode
today talking to you it's veryrelevant and timely because
(16:19):
yesterday would have been mymom's 80th birthday and yeah,
and we're getting ready tocelebrate my father's 80th in,
in March and we're trying toplan a trip for him.
And so the contrast of.
Okay.
And here's my mom's 80th andwe're not getting to celebrate
(16:39):
her.
And so I was feeling as Thispast week, kind of like as the
days went by, I felt like I hada lot of eager anticipation for
how that was, how I was going tofeel yesterday on her birthday.
And so I wanted to be very selfcompassionate and protective
with my heart.
(16:59):
And I woke up an hour earlierthan I needed to, to go for a
walk, to just kind of locatemyself before going to work.
And it was a beautiful day and Iwas on the nature trail by my
house and what I actually wasnoticing most prominently come
up in me was feeling like I justwanted to celebrate.
(17:22):
The fact that I had this amazingmother who continues to I know
this might sound like hokey, butshe continues to bless me with
the foundation that she gave me.
So when I'm.
having a hard time tapping intoself compassion for myself or
(17:42):
that loud inner critic comes up,which it does all the time.
Right.
Yes.
But I'm able to, I'm able tokind of quiet it down pretty
quickly because I'm able toborrow.
From what she gave me even now.
Right.
And that was, I lost her 24years ago, but she gave me that
(18:03):
foundation, like that gift keepson giving.
And I, as I get older and in thework that I do, it's becoming
increasingly apparent to me thatnot everybody.
has a mom like the one that Iwas blessed to have.
And so for that reason, I justwas so full of gratitude
(18:25):
yesterday.
And that kind of took me bysurprise.
So to answer your question,that's what I like to try.
And impart onto my clients atthe same time that they can just
let all of their messy griefhang out because I also know
what that's like.
Wow.
Mandy (18:42):
I think what a great perspective.
And I hadn't thought about that.
I had thought about the factthat you've had this experience
and that's going to impact howyou connect with your clients
and their experience, but then.
For you to see sort of theopposite spectrum to see parents
who don't have a goodrelationship with their kids and
see what that is like and hearabout those experiences so often
(19:05):
and then to give you a differentperspective on even though your
mother's life was short, the twoof you had a good relationship
and she did leave you with
Jana (19:14):
a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I always say like Ilearn.
I think just as much for myclients as they do for me.
And that's one of the things Ilove so much about my work and
their resilience, right?
For the ones who didn't have,like, that's their grief.
The ones who didn't have thekind of mom.
That I had, and there's many,many, including some of my
(19:36):
closest friends, and so as I getolder and learn that, what I
grew up with wasn't the norm foreveryone, like not, not even
close.
It's, it's like, the way that Iwork with those those people is
helping them to find.
First, what they need in termsof, the fantasy of what a, what
(19:56):
a loving, unconditionallysupportive parent would say to
them.
Like, what do they need to hear?
And who are their friends andchosen family who can?
Tell them the things they needto hear and really kind of
tapping into that to internalizethose voices.
Mandy (20:15):
And I think it was also a really important point to say
that the lead up to this date.
you were feeling something inyourself because I think so
often before the anniversary ofa death and around the person's
birthday.
Those are like weird times whereyou know it's coming and you're
not quite sure how am I going tofeel this year.
(20:35):
I think every year we reactdifferently and it's difficult
to predict.
Yes.
And so it's so important, likeyou said, to give yourself that
self compassion for whateverdoes come up because it could be
joy and it could be gratitudebut it also could be.
It could be the opposite.
Jana (20:51):
Totally.
Yeah.
Either of those are fine.
Yeah.
And, and, and I, to be, to beclear, I don't mean to paint
this with like rainbows andsunshine.
I was fully anticipating.
I'm not being great.
Yesterday.
So when I felt that way, it wassuch a welcome, like, Oh my
gosh, not only am I okay, I'mactually feeling just so, just
(21:12):
so grateful.
And you know, at the, at thesame time that I'm sad and it
sucks that I can't just pick upthe phone and call my mom.
Right.
Like I still have those days.
Like if you want to hear theharder parts, the truth is I do
still have those days.
I have moments where like bigthings happen and I just want to
(21:34):
pick up the phone and call mymom and for like a half of a
half of a second I forget.
And in a way, it's so, kind ofcool to forget, like what a
relief to forget, right?
Because it's like, and that justshows how much I've internalized
her, right?
And then the sadness, it'simmediately followed by like,
(21:56):
Such a bummer and sofrustrating.
I just feel like she's just outof my reach.
She's just out of my grasp.
And so, and that never reallytotally goes away, right?
Yeah.
And so that's the reality.
That's, that's the reality ofit.
And, and the grief, I alwaystell my clients and like, I'm
always relearning myself.
(22:17):
It's non linear.
And it can bite us in the asswhen we are least expecting it.
And during COVID, for example, Iwas so grief stricken.
Like many of us were, whilethere was an upside, of course,
of being in sweatpants all thetime.
Being able to eat whatever wewant, whenever we want, and
(22:39):
you're in sweatpants, so whocares, right, but everything
that was the community and theconnection that was kind of
being taken away brought up.
My grief around my mom all overagain, you know, it was just
like this thing is being takenaway from me.
How can I survive without this?
How can I survive without mypeople like that?
(23:01):
And I just remember days of justlike bawling and I hadn't cried
like that since months after mymom died.
Wow.
Mandy (23:12):
So yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like your story issuch a good reminder to everyone
that grief is...
Everlasting, even though itchanges and, and shifts and, you
know, morphs into differentthings, but like, you can sit
here 24 years later and sayyeah, like, I still really miss
my mom and I still think abouther and, and I think we cry
(23:33):
less, but like, you can stillhave a moment where something
happens and you still like.
Jana (23:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taking my seven year olddaughter for her first time this
past year to see the nutcracker.
And that's what I used to dowith my mom.
And it was like, as soon as theoverture started, I mean, you
know, the way our senses storememories, I mean, the tears just
started coming and I, I waslike, gosh, I was like, oh, I
(24:03):
Sometimes I have theseconversations with my tears,
like you did not ask me forpermission to come right now.
Like, this is a reallyinopportune time.
I don't want my, I don't want tolike freak out my daughter.
Right.
But man, it was like the nextgeneration.
Right.
And I'm 44.
My mom was diagnosed when shewas 53.
She passed away when she was 56.
(24:24):
I'm nine years shy.
of when she got diagnosed.
And I just think that it bringsup all of this stuff around, you
know, our own mortality.
And around like what I teach,what I want, the legacy that I
want to pass down to my daughterto have her know how loved she
is and traditions and rituals,all of that.
(24:46):
Like the tears were just frontand center.
Mandy (24:49):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
I think I've seen this calledthe silent threshold that you
cross when you age further thanour moms did.
My mom was 47 and I'm 40 now.
And so I'm like in the decadethat she, that she died.
And so it just, it does, itbrings that mortality closer and
it makes you think, you know, ifI only have seven years left,
(25:11):
like.
What am I going to do?
Yeah, but you know, I don'tknow.
It's just something reallyinteresting to think about.
And I thought about it when youmentioned your dad is going to
turn 80 this year and that's howold your mom would be.
But in your mind and in ourminds, it's like they are
forever the age.
That they were when they died.
Like, I can't imagine what, whatwould my mom look like right
(25:32):
now?
I have no idea.
It's very, and as a female,like, how will I look when I'm
an age she never reached?
Right?
I don't have that mirror infront of me.
Jana (25:42):
So, yeah, and yeah, and my mother's mother also died in her
fifties and so I, to kind oflike piggyback off what you were
just saying, I, I don't have amodel either of what do women in
my family look like as they age?
(26:02):
I have one female, my Father'smother lived to be like 83, but,
you know, times were differentand she smoked a pack of
cigarettes a day.
And, you know, I, I hope I lookbetter than she did.
Mandy (26:18):
So I know that you I'm sure you meet one on one with
clients who are grieving and youalso have facilitated grief
groups.
What what kinds of things do youtry to impart on people who are
new to this experience of, like,having just lost somebody
really, really close to them?
Like, what kind of advice do yougive them?
Yeah.
What do you see come up a
Jana (26:37):
lot?
Yeah, it's such a greatquestion.
Yeah, I mean, some common thingsthat I, I'll start first with
like some common things I hearpeople say so I can talk about
how I respond, if that's okay.
Yeah.
So, One of the most commonthings that I hear people say is
I don't feel like I'm doing thisgrieving thing, right?
(26:58):
I think First of all, a lot ofthe people I work with and you
know private practice therapytend to be high functioning you
know professionals and so it'salmost like They want to
achieve, they want to master thetask of grieving correctly, like
it's a test.
(27:19):
Right.
And there's like a formula, butno one gave them the book
combined with the fact to likethe book to study for it and
combined with the fact that welive in a culture that does not
acknowledge brief beyond like, Idon't know, a couple months,
maybe.
Yeah, at most, right.
(27:39):
And so so the next logicalconclusion that they draw is,
you know, it's been like fourmonths, five months, and I still
feel like I don't recognizemyself.
And that's the other most commonthing that I hear.
I just feel like I don'trecognize myself, I'm forgetting
things, I, you know, was reallyangry the other day in traffic,
(28:03):
I'm never normally angry I havebeen screaming at my kids a lot,
just or I feel like this isn'treal, like, I feel like I don't
know.
Life is going on all around me,but my life has totally changed,
and everyone is just going on asif the world is normal, and my
world is anything but.
(28:24):
Right?
And these are the things that Ihear all the time.
And so how do I respond is like,first of all, yeah I hear that
all the time.
And I personally know what youmean.
Right?
I think there are you.
We're taught as therapists notto be self disclosing unless it
(28:48):
is in the client's best interestand intentional as part of the
intervention.
And with grief, there is a, anappropriate Time where using
self disclosure is actuallyreally helpful because it helps
people to feel less alone.
Grief is a really isolating,lonely place to be.
(29:09):
And so I just think being withthem in that moment to be like,
Yeah, I know.
I remember feeling that way,too.
And normalizing that it's notnormal that we live in a culture
that doesn't recognize grief,like validating that that is not
normal, right?
And then providing them withresources.
(29:30):
So groups like referring them toone of my groups or someone,
another therapist group or justbereavement groups.
And there's all sorts ofresources online.
There's podcasts like yours.
You know, the book it's okaythat you're not okay.
There's, there's so much outthere that people just don't
know about.
(29:51):
So getting them resourced.
Just helps them to feel like,oh, wait, there's a name for
this.
And actually my reaction isquite normal.
Mandy (29:59):
And it's, it's giving that validation that I think you
so desperately need in thosemoments.
Because like you said, peoplesay, I don't think I'm doing
this right because people aren'ttalking about.
You know, what is it feelinglike four months after a death?
And so they look at it andassume like, okay, everyone else
is fine and I'm reallystruggling.
And so I must, something's wrongwith
Jana (30:20):
me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and anger, anger,especially it's.
With women in particular, right?
We are generally raised to stuffour anger away or let it not be
seen, cover it up, smile, and,be the nurturer and the human
giver that you are, right?
(30:42):
And God forbid, we shouldacknowledge our anger.
And anger is the number oneemotion.
That is associated with griefbecause it feels more productive
to be angry than it does To besad.
Sad feels stagnant and stuck andhelpless.
Anger is energizing andpowerful, right?
(31:07):
But the problem is women don'tfeel like they can engage with
their anger.
And so I also like to justprovide that like psycho
education for people thatWhatever you feel, including
your anger, is welcome here, andit's quite normal.
That's awesome.
Mandy (31:27):
Yeah.
Do you ever provide advice forloved ones who have someone
who's grieving and they don'tknow how to support them, and
what would you say to them as apsychotherapist?
How do they best be there for
Jana (31:39):
that person?
Yeah.
Don't speak in cliches.
That is the worst.
Right.
Every don't, don't ever sayeverything happens for a reason.
God doesn't give anybody whatthey can't handle.
I mean, if that's something thatyou personally believe for
yourself.
More power to you.
And if that helps youpersonally, that's wonderful.
(32:02):
I'm not bashing that, but noteverybody feels that way.
And so please make sure not toproject your own personal
beliefs on someone else becauseit actually could make them feel
worse.
So the best thing you can do isto first and foremost, just
acknowledge Thank I just want tosay I know that this must be an
(32:24):
extraordinarily difficult timefor you and I'm here.
I'm thinking about you.
I love you and please let meknow however I can support you,
right?
Yeah.
Perfect.
Right.
It's not, it's simple and it'snot trying to fix it.
It's not trying to fix it.
(32:45):
And it's not being dismissive.
We all need acknowledgement andsupport and validation.
So that's what you do when yousay something like that.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I do just want to say youknow, in addition to being a
psychotherapist my most recentcareer news is that in addition
(33:07):
to my, to my podcast, sheilluminated I am also expanding
into women's coaching for burntout women and specifically
working with a lot of momsaround burnout because one of
the, and this.
Ties back to grief because oneof the things that I experienced
when I became the only womanleft in the household, even
(33:29):
though I was the baby of thehousehold is that I started to
over function.
Right.
And like we were speaking aboutearlier, and that's kind of been
a default coping strategy ofmine ever since then.
And so I'm very familiar withburnout and taking care of
everybody else.
(33:50):
Go figure.
I'm a therapist.
And so but I've learned some,some tips and tricks over the
years.
And so this is also.
Like one of the number onethings that I see in my
practice.
So many women and momsspecifically who struggle with
burnout.
And I, I observed very oftenthat burnout also comes from
(34:11):
their over functioning fromgrief, from the narratives about
what women are supposed to beand do right from a whole host
of reasons, but grief.
And, and the narratives aboutwomen and gender roles are two
of the biggest ones.
So.
That's kind of like my, mylatest you know, area of
interest.
(34:31):
And I just wanted to kind oflike pass that on.
Yeah.
Mandy (34:35):
I love that you sort of had this early, early adulthood
experience that was obviously.
Earth shattering for you, butthen later in life, like looking
at it 24 years down the road,you've sort of taken that and
morphed it into different partsof your life.
So, you know, you brought itinto your work as a therapist
and now you're bringing it intothis work with women and, and
(34:58):
it's gonna continue to color andshape whatever it is that you're
out in the world.
And doing an offering to people,it's such an important lens
because it is so commonplace.
And it is such a universalexperience for people to go
through, whether it be the griefof, you know, a parent or
somebody super close or thegrief that comes with our daily
(35:18):
lives.
Right.
You mentioned COVID and we, youknow, we think about jobs and,
and roles and marriages andthings like that, which all
bring about grief.
And.
The skills that you have andthat you've learned how to talk
through with people in therapyare also the same skills that
I'm sure you're applying and inthis new realm with burnout.
They're,
Jana (35:37):
they're, they're similar.
They're similar.
The difference is with therapy,my clients, I have to diagnose
them, which don't get mestarted.
That's a whole other episode,but right, it's a medicalized
model.
And for insurance reimbursement,we have to diagnose with
something granted.
Many of my clients could.
are arguably be coachingclients, many of my therapy
(36:00):
clients.
But, you know so I, I like todraw that distinction for people
that if you're engaging withcoaching, it's not for a
clinical mental health struggle.
But it's for life circumstances.
That are very human and hard.
It doesn't mean you have aclinical mental health disorder
and P.
S.
Many of your listeners probablyalready know, but grief is not a
(36:23):
diagnosis, right?
It's normal to grieve.
Right.
It's an emotion and it's a, it'swe don't have to pathologize it.
So, yeah.
Mandy (36:36):
Yeah.
I really like that distinction.
I hadn't thought about that aslike the medicalized model and
then
Jana (36:41):
yeah.
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah.
Mandy (36:44):
So if you want to mention the name of your podcast again,
but also your website and I'llmake sure all of that gets put
into the show notes for peopleso they can find you.
They're interested andconnected.
Yeah.
Jana (36:53):
If anyone is interested.
If you're interested inconnecting with me further, I'm
not currently accepting therapyclients at this time, but I am
accepting coaching clients, andyou can reach out to me at
Janna, that's J A N N A, atjanna.
org.
Fuchs coaching.
com.
And Fuchs is F as in Frank, U CH S as in Sam, Jana Fuchs,
(37:18):
coaching.
com.
And my podcast is called sheilluminated.
So feel free to check that outtoo.
I hope you enjoy today'sdiscussion with Janna.
At the beginning of the episode,she describes remembering the
conversation where she learnedabout her mother's diagnosis as
dark and the memories of theyear after the death as fuzzy.
As a braiding prompt today,consider a monumental moment in
(37:41):
your life.
Write about what comes up withthis memory.
What colors smells details.
Come to mind.
Thank you so much for listening.
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it and asalways visit, remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I am your host, Amanda Carnahanfrom remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping and support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box shippingwithin the us is always free.
And we treat each origin withspecial care.
Paying attention to everydetail.
(00:23):
Today, I'm joined by Jana Fuchs,host of the Shia eliminated
podcast.
Licensed psychotherapist founderof Chicago, relational therapy
and soul coach are burnt out.
Women Jana was on the very brinkof adulthood when she lost her
mom.
She went on to become apsychotherapist.
And today we talk about whatthose 24 years have been like
(00:43):
since her mother's death.
How it has shaped both herprofessional and personal life.
Let's take a lesson.
Jana (00:49):
So I was 17 when I had come home from the gym.
And I remember the house wasreally, it felt dark, at least
in my memory, the house was darkand I came home to my parents
(01:10):
sitting in our family room andjust seeming really kind of
like, sober and serious.
And I they explained to me thatthey had previously found a mass
in my mother's breast that theythought was potentially breast
cancer.
And It wasn't, but it actuallysignaled them to a cancerous
(01:34):
tumor endometrial cancer, whichis a type of uterine cancer.
And that was really like, Iwould call it the beginning of.
Chapter two of my life.
There's always like, and I feellike anyone who's gone through a
significant loss understandsthat it's kind of like you, I
think a lot of us think of ourlives and chapters.
(01:56):
So chapter one was my very kindof untouched unvarnished,
innocent childhood.
And you know, I had known oneother person.
A close family friend, my agewho had lost a parent and it was
kind of like a, I rememberhaving the thought at that age,
like when my friend, I was 11years old and she had lost her
(02:20):
parent and thinking How horribleand awful that must feel for her
and just kind of like waking upto that could be me, I guess,
one day but like thank God it'snot and I'm just gonna keep my
blinders on for now while I can.
Right.
But but then chapter twostarted.
That day of you know, becomingaware of my mother's diagnosis.
(02:43):
And she fought the good fightfor three years.
And.
Really didn't want to draw muchattention to herself.
She wanted to get her treatmentin the morning and go to work in
the afternoon and carry on asmuch normalcy as possible and
encouraged me to go do all thethings that a 17, 18, 19 year
(03:03):
old wants to do.
And so I went away to collegelike the rest of my friends
trying as best as I could topretend like everything was
normal.
And I think.
I also wanted to, respect mymom's wishes.
yeah.
That everything just seemednormal.
And so yeah, that's kind of whatI did until it became quite
(03:23):
apparent that she probably, sheprobably only had a few months
left to live.
And at that ti at that point Icame home from college to spend
that time with, with my mom athome in hospice.
So yeah, that was the beginningof chapter two.
Mandy (03:38):
Yeah, that's such a tough age to be at because you're at
like this brink of becoming anadult and finding this
independence that you haven'thad yet.
And it's such like an excitingtime and people are, you know.
Exploring who they are as anadult and then you just have
like this heavy weight on top ofyou that you know is happening
in the background and just Ifeel for you.
(04:00):
I think that transitional age isreally difficult.
Yeah,
Jana (04:04):
that emerging adulthood, you know, and yeah, I mean.
I was just talking about thisthis morning with my husband,
who he grew up not due to adeath of a parent, but his
parents divorced.
And he grew up the only male inhis household with two older
sisters and a mother.
And I grew up after my mom died.
(04:26):
I mean, yes, I was a youngadult, but I was still young and
I was the only.
Female and left in ourhousehold.
I had an older brother.
I have an older brother and adad.
And so, you know, just thismorning, my husband and I were
talking about like whensomething like that happens, and
you're the only person left ofthat kind of like gender, even
(04:46):
if you're the youngest in thefamily, which he is, and I am,
you kind of take on extra Yeah.
Yeah.
Because it's one way to feel incontrol of the grief and to feel
like you are contributing toyour family because you take on
all the work of, of kind of likewhat comes with that gender
(05:08):
role, just inadvertently, that'sgreat.
It's kind of like what
Mandy (05:11):
happens, right?
It's almost subconscious the wayI think also people expect it
from you a little bit, right?
I mean, same thing happened tome when my mom died, where it
feels like, okay, now you're thesurrogate female in the family
who we're going to turn to fordecisions.
And it's, yeah, it's a reallydifficult place to be in, but
especially when you're 20.
(05:31):
What was that time period likefor you right after?
Losing your mom those few years
Jana (05:36):
after that.
Oh man, that was so rough.
And you know, it's all relative.
The way that everyone identifieswhat trauma means to them is
different.
But to me, that time felttraumatic.
Because I had gone from Being inthis really close knit, loving
(06:01):
family of four, right?
My mom, my dad, my brother, andmyself, my parents were high
school sweethearts.
They had a really nice,beautiful relationship.
They would hold hands all thetime, like just to my mom died.
And within a year, my brotherdecided to move cross country
(06:23):
with his band out to Californiafrom Philadelphia, where we all
grew up.
And my dad started datingsomeone and sold our childhood
home, the only home I'd everlived in besides my college
dorm.
And so I lost my mom.
I lost the idea of my parentsbeing the only two people for
each other.
(06:44):
I lost my childhood home.
And with it at the time.
Kind of felt like I lost a bitof myself because again in early
emerging adulthood.
It's like we're all trying tofigure out who we are anyway.
But to not have myself reflectedback in the way that like, A
(07:04):
mother, an attuned mother can doto not have that felt like my
anchor had been yanked out fromunder me and I didn't even have
a home anymore.
Right.
When I went back to college tofinish up because I took off a
semester when my mom died.
And so I went back the followingsemester to finish up my senior
year.
And and then when I would comehome on my breaks, it was like,
(07:28):
where did I, I didn't reallyhave a place to go home to.
So I would like stay withfriends because I didn't really
want to stay with my dad and hisnew girlfriend, soon to be wife.
I just wasn't, I was still ingrief.
I was still in grief.
Mandy (07:43):
Yeah.
So many of those are theselittle secondary losses that
people aren't considering.
That I think so many people,when you lose someone, there are
multiple losses that come withthat loss, like the loss of a
house you know, the loss ofrelationships and, you going
back to college even, and justfeeling like you have had, had
(08:04):
an experience that your peershaven't.
So it's almost like you'recoming back in this different
state or this differentperspective.
And, and also the losing of, youknow, you've called your mom,
like your anchor in this.
This person who can reflect backto you, and I think of it like a
roadmap, you know, our parentsare sort of the roadmap ahead of
us.
And yeah, see that that map andsuch a short period is scary to
(08:29):
look ahead and think like, isthat all I have left and, you
know, where do
Jana (08:32):
I go from here.
Yeah, yeah, it's I and when Isay that time felt traumatic for
me.
It's really interesting becauseeven just hearing myself talk,
like, you know, how I describedthat day of the diagnosis, it
was like very dark.
That's the imagery that I havearound that day of the
diagnosis.
But when I think back on thetime post, for that, like, first
(08:55):
year after my mom died I don'tremember it dark, but I like I
try to remember it and it's likeso blurry and like foggy and you
know, and I as a psychotherapistknow that when we have traumatic
experiences, we don't rememberthings and chronological.
(09:15):
Sequential order the way we kindof store memories, you know, in
every day, kind of mundane,neutral memories were able to
kind of retrieve those reallyeasily and often very vividly.
But when something traumatichappens to us, it's kind of all
fragmented.
And difficult to remember.
(09:37):
It's almost kind of like we haveamnesia around it.
And so that's kind of how Iremember that time.
And then for years afterwards, Iwould have these dreams that I
was.
I would have many differentkinds of dreams are about the
loss itself, but a recurring,really interesting dream that I
didn't piece together untilyears later was this recurring
(09:59):
dream that I was on arollercoaster and the ups and
downs.
And, and, and what I, what Imake of that dream is.
Yeah.
It was like my brain stilltrying to understand and process
your mom is in remission.
She's getting better.
She just needs this one more,like one more surgery.
Oh no, I'm so sorry.
(10:20):
The cancer is back.
No, no, no.
She's better go to college.
It's fine.
Go, you know, drive the fivehours up to school and just do
you be normal.
We're all going to be positive.
She's getting better.
Oh no, we're so sorry.
You know, she needs anothersurgery and the ups and downs
and.
The other piece that I shouldadd is that I never was told
(10:41):
about a specific prognosis.
So at the same time, even thoughmy father knew because he was a
physician, he kept that tohimself because he didn't want
to take away my mother's hopeand, and her fight.
Because that also kept her goinglonger.
And this was before Google.
(11:03):
So I couldn't Google it.
Right.
And so it was kind of thisalmost ignorance is bliss kind
of thing.
But that ignorance is blissthing kind of came back to haunt
me literally years later byhaving these dreams of feeling
so confused.
Mandy (11:16):
Right.
And almost like you can't trustwhat you know.
Right?
When someone says, Oh, like,it's okay, but you're afraid to
trust that.
And just like on the oppositeend, you know, things are not
okay.
But then part of you thinking,well, it will be again, because
it has been.
Jana (11:31):
Yeah, yeah.
Mandy (11:32):
It's interesting that, you know, you mentioned you're a
psychotherapist.
Is that something you had alwayswanted to do?
Like when you went into college?
Is that The major that you choseor did that shift somewhere for
you?
Jana (11:43):
So since I was as far the furthest back, I can remember it
becoming an idea for me, likethinking of it as a possibility
was when I was 11 at sleep awaycamp.
And there was another camperyoung, young girl in my bunk who
had come over from England andshe was really homesick and
(12:05):
having a hard time.
And I think some of the kidsMaybe weren't so nice to her.
I can't quite remember what theissues were, but I remember
spending like time and talkingto her and my counselor kind of
saying to me, you know, likeyou're so you're such as like a
natural listener, you would bean excellent therapist one day,
like you really helped her.
(12:26):
And it was kind of this like.
Wow, really?
Like that?
I could.
Yeah, maybe I could see myselfdoing that.
So that's like the earliest Ican remember.
And I was kind of always that,friend for people.
I'm just comfortable holdingspace and I'm an empath.
So I can Feel easily whatsomeone else might be feeling
(12:47):
and put put their feelings intocontext.
And so, when I was in college Istarted I did start out.
I chose the school.
I chose because it had a greatreputation and in the field
psychology.
And I dabbled in a bunch ofpsych courses, but when it came
time to declare my major wasduring one of the times that my
(13:09):
mother was on a downturn.
And I thought to myself, I amnot going to be ready to declare
myself as a psych major and goimmediately to grad school and
do more.
Right.
And it's like a whole 10 yeartrack ahead of me.
I, I cannot even fathom becauseI don't know what's going to
happen.
Tomorrow.
And so I had also taken a bunchof English classes.
(13:30):
I loved reading and literature.
And so I just declared myself anEnglish major and figured I
could circle back later topsych.
And that's exactly what I did.
Yeah.
Mandy (13:39):
One little thing that I think is so funny is that you
were looking to be a therapistwhen you were young, because I
feel like in our day and age.
Therapy was not what it is todaywhere like my kids know about
therapy and like people go totherapy and it's totally
normalized and everythingtotally as kids when we were
kids that was not the culture soi don't even know if i thought
(14:00):
about that as a career as achild i was thinking like
teacher you know right thetypical
Jana (14:05):
What's really interesting.
You say that you're absolutelyright.
And I mean, I'll, I don't knowabout you.
I'll just say my I'm 44.
And so, yeah, that was kind ofthe case.
It wasn't until after my momdied, really, that I engaged
with therapy and was like, thisis.
Such an important job I sorespected that first therapist I
(14:26):
had.
And she's the reason why I thinkI was like, I'm going back to
this.
I think I could do this.
But it turns out that samecounselor now I learned cause
Facebook, God bless Facebook.
Is, is bipolar and so sheprobably had experiences herself
as a, as a kid being in and outof therapy, I'm guessing.
(14:48):
And she was the one who, whotold me that.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Mandy (14:52):
It's fascinating to see how, how we weave through life
and find where we're going.
So how has grief affected you?
Come into play in your work aspsychotherapist.
I assume that this has come up alot for you working as a
therapist.
And like, how has that beenshaped by your experience with
your mom?
Jana (15:09):
Yeah.
So interesting.
It has, it comes up all thetime.
In my work as a therapist it'sinteresting for me.
It has made me maybesurprisingly to other people,
but it has made me comfortable,really comfortable with talking
about death and loss becauseI've been there.
(15:34):
I think if I had neverexperienced anything like that,
it could trigger me in adifferent kind.
Of a way.
And I know that might soundcounterintuitive, right?
That because it's happened tome, you know, wouldn't it upset
me to talk about, someone elsegoing through a similar
situation, but actually, no.
(15:54):
Because I've been there.
It was Awful.
It was traumatic and I survivedand I know that there's life on
the other side and not only lifeon the other side, but even the
potential for so much joy andgratitude.
And, you know, on that note, Thetiming of this, this episode
today talking to you it's veryrelevant and timely because
(16:19):
yesterday would have been mymom's 80th birthday and yeah,
and we're getting ready tocelebrate my father's 80th in,
in March and we're trying toplan a trip for him.
And so the contrast of.
Okay.
And here's my mom's 80th andwe're not getting to celebrate
(16:39):
her.
And so I was feeling as Thispast week, kind of like as the
days went by, I felt like I hada lot of eager anticipation for
how that was, how I was going tofeel yesterday on her birthday.
And so I wanted to be very selfcompassionate and protective
with my heart.
(16:59):
And I woke up an hour earlierthan I needed to, to go for a
walk, to just kind of locatemyself before going to work.
And it was a beautiful day and Iwas on the nature trail by my
house and what I actually wasnoticing most prominently come
up in me was feeling like I justwanted to celebrate.
(17:22):
The fact that I had this amazingmother who continues to I know
this might sound like hokey, butshe continues to bless me with
the foundation that she gave me.
So when I'm.
having a hard time tapping intoself compassion for myself or
(17:42):
that loud inner critic comes up,which it does all the time.
Right.
Yes.
But I'm able to, I'm able tokind of quiet it down pretty
quickly because I'm able toborrow.
From what she gave me even now.
Right.
And that was, I lost her 24years ago, but she gave me that
(18:03):
foundation, like that gift keepson giving.
And I, as I get older and in thework that I do, it's becoming
increasingly apparent to me thatnot everybody.
has a mom like the one that Iwas blessed to have.
And so for that reason, I justwas so full of gratitude
(18:25):
yesterday.
And that kind of took me bysurprise.
So to answer your question,that's what I like to try.
And impart onto my clients atthe same time that they can just
let all of their messy griefhang out because I also know
what that's like.
Wow.
Mandy (18:42):
I think what a great perspective.
And I hadn't thought about that.
I had thought about the factthat you've had this experience
and that's going to impact howyou connect with your clients
and their experience, but then.
For you to see sort of theopposite spectrum to see parents
who don't have a goodrelationship with their kids and
see what that is like and hearabout those experiences so often
(19:05):
and then to give you a differentperspective on even though your
mother's life was short, the twoof you had a good relationship
and she did leave you with
Jana (19:14):
a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, I always say like Ilearn.
I think just as much for myclients as they do for me.
And that's one of the things Ilove so much about my work and
their resilience, right?
For the ones who didn't have,like, that's their grief.
The ones who didn't have thekind of mom.
That I had, and there's many,many, including some of my
(19:36):
closest friends, and so as I getolder and learn that, what I
grew up with wasn't the norm foreveryone, like not, not even
close.
It's, it's like, the way that Iwork with those those people is
helping them to find.
First, what they need in termsof, the fantasy of what a, what
(19:56):
a loving, unconditionallysupportive parent would say to
them.
Like, what do they need to hear?
And who are their friends andchosen family who can?
Tell them the things they needto hear and really kind of
tapping into that to internalizethose voices.
Mandy (20:15):
And I think it was also a really important point to say
that the lead up to this date.
you were feeling something inyourself because I think so
often before the anniversary ofa death and around the person's
birthday.
Those are like weird times whereyou know it's coming and you're
not quite sure how am I going tofeel this year.
(20:35):
I think every year we reactdifferently and it's difficult
to predict.
Yes.
And so it's so important, likeyou said, to give yourself that
self compassion for whateverdoes come up because it could be
joy and it could be gratitudebut it also could be.
It could be the opposite.
Jana (20:51):
Totally.
Yeah.
Either of those are fine.
Yeah.
And, and, and I, to be, to beclear, I don't mean to paint
this with like rainbows andsunshine.
I was fully anticipating.
I'm not being great.
Yesterday.
So when I felt that way, it wassuch a welcome, like, Oh my
gosh, not only am I okay, I'mactually feeling just so, just
(21:12):
so grateful.
And you know, at the, at thesame time that I'm sad and it
sucks that I can't just pick upthe phone and call my mom.
Right.
Like I still have those days.
Like if you want to hear theharder parts, the truth is I do
still have those days.
I have moments where like bigthings happen and I just want to
(21:34):
pick up the phone and call mymom and for like a half of a
half of a second I forget.
And in a way, it's so, kind ofcool to forget, like what a
relief to forget, right?
Because it's like, and that justshows how much I've internalized
her, right?
And then the sadness, it'simmediately followed by like,
(21:56):
Such a bummer and sofrustrating.
I just feel like she's just outof my reach.
She's just out of my grasp.
And so, and that never reallytotally goes away, right?
Yeah.
And so that's the reality.
That's, that's the reality ofit.
And, and the grief, I alwaystell my clients and like, I'm
always relearning myself.
(22:17):
It's non linear.
And it can bite us in the asswhen we are least expecting it.
And during COVID, for example, Iwas so grief stricken.
Like many of us were, whilethere was an upside, of course,
of being in sweatpants all thetime.
Being able to eat whatever wewant, whenever we want, and
(22:39):
you're in sweatpants, so whocares, right, but everything
that was the community and theconnection that was kind of
being taken away brought up.
My grief around my mom all overagain, you know, it was just
like this thing is being takenaway from me.
How can I survive without this?
How can I survive without mypeople like that?
(23:01):
And I just remember days of justlike bawling and I hadn't cried
like that since months after mymom died.
Wow.
Mandy (23:12):
So yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like your story issuch a good reminder to everyone
that grief is...
Everlasting, even though itchanges and, and shifts and, you
know, morphs into differentthings, but like, you can sit
here 24 years later and sayyeah, like, I still really miss
my mom and I still think abouther and, and I think we cry
(23:33):
less, but like, you can stillhave a moment where something
happens and you still like.
Jana (23:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taking my seven year olddaughter for her first time this
past year to see the nutcracker.
And that's what I used to dowith my mom.
And it was like, as soon as theoverture started, I mean, you
know, the way our senses storememories, I mean, the tears just
started coming and I, I waslike, gosh, I was like, oh, I
(24:03):
Sometimes I have theseconversations with my tears,
like you did not ask me forpermission to come right now.
Like, this is a reallyinopportune time.
I don't want my, I don't want tolike freak out my daughter.
Right.
But man, it was like the nextgeneration.
Right.
And I'm 44.
My mom was diagnosed when shewas 53.
She passed away when she was 56.
(24:24):
I'm nine years shy.
of when she got diagnosed.
And I just think that it bringsup all of this stuff around, you
know, our own mortality.
And around like what I teach,what I want, the legacy that I
want to pass down to my daughterto have her know how loved she
is and traditions and rituals,all of that.
(24:46):
Like the tears were just frontand center.
Mandy (24:49):
Oh my gosh.
Yes.
I think I've seen this calledthe silent threshold that you
cross when you age further thanour moms did.
My mom was 47 and I'm 40 now.
And so I'm like in the decadethat she, that she died.
And so it just, it does, itbrings that mortality closer and
it makes you think, you know, ifI only have seven years left,
(25:11):
like.
What am I going to do?
Yeah, but you know, I don'tknow.
It's just something reallyinteresting to think about.
And I thought about it when youmentioned your dad is going to
turn 80 this year and that's howold your mom would be.
But in your mind and in ourminds, it's like they are
forever the age.
That they were when they died.
Like, I can't imagine what, whatwould my mom look like right
(25:32):
now?
I have no idea.
It's very, and as a female,like, how will I look when I'm
an age she never reached?
Right?
I don't have that mirror infront of me.
Jana (25:42):
So, yeah, and yeah, and my mother's mother also died in her
fifties and so I, to kind oflike piggyback off what you were
just saying, I, I don't have amodel either of what do women in
my family look like as they age?
(26:02):
I have one female, my Father'smother lived to be like 83, but,
you know, times were differentand she smoked a pack of
cigarettes a day.
And, you know, I, I hope I lookbetter than she did.
Mandy (26:18):
So I know that you I'm sure you meet one on one with
clients who are grieving and youalso have facilitated grief
groups.
What what kinds of things do youtry to impart on people who are
new to this experience of, like,having just lost somebody
really, really close to them?
Like, what kind of advice do yougive them?
Yeah.
What do you see come up a
Jana (26:37):
lot?
Yeah, it's such a greatquestion.
Yeah, I mean, some common thingsthat I, I'll start first with
like some common things I hearpeople say so I can talk about
how I respond, if that's okay.
Yeah.
So, One of the most commonthings that I hear people say is
I don't feel like I'm doing thisgrieving thing, right?
(26:58):
I think First of all, a lot ofthe people I work with and you
know private practice therapytend to be high functioning you
know professionals and so it'salmost like They want to
achieve, they want to master thetask of grieving correctly, like
it's a test.
(27:19):
Right.
And there's like a formula, butno one gave them the book
combined with the fact to likethe book to study for it and
combined with the fact that welive in a culture that does not
acknowledge brief beyond like, Idon't know, a couple months,
maybe.
Yeah, at most, right.
(27:39):
And so so the next logicalconclusion that they draw is,
you know, it's been like fourmonths, five months, and I still
feel like I don't recognizemyself.
And that's the other most commonthing that I hear.
I just feel like I don'trecognize myself, I'm forgetting
things, I, you know, was reallyangry the other day in traffic,
(28:03):
I'm never normally angry I havebeen screaming at my kids a lot,
just or I feel like this isn'treal, like, I feel like I don't
know.
Life is going on all around me,but my life has totally changed,
and everyone is just going on asif the world is normal, and my
world is anything but.
(28:24):
Right?
And these are the things that Ihear all the time.
And so how do I respond is like,first of all, yeah I hear that
all the time.
And I personally know what youmean.
Right?
I think there are you.
We're taught as therapists notto be self disclosing unless it
(28:48):
is in the client's best interestand intentional as part of the
intervention.
And with grief, there is a, anappropriate Time where using
self disclosure is actuallyreally helpful because it helps
people to feel less alone.
Grief is a really isolating,lonely place to be.
(29:09):
And so I just think being withthem in that moment to be like,
Yeah, I know.
I remember feeling that way,too.
And normalizing that it's notnormal that we live in a culture
that doesn't recognize grief,like validating that that is not
normal, right?
And then providing them withresources.
(29:30):
So groups like referring them toone of my groups or someone,
another therapist group or justbereavement groups.
And there's all sorts ofresources online.
There's podcasts like yours.
You know, the book it's okaythat you're not okay.
There's, there's so much outthere that people just don't
know about.
(29:51):
So getting them resourced.
Just helps them to feel like,oh, wait, there's a name for
this.
And actually my reaction isquite normal.
Mandy (29:59):
And it's, it's giving that validation that I think you
so desperately need in thosemoments.
Because like you said, peoplesay, I don't think I'm doing
this right because people aren'ttalking about.
You know, what is it feelinglike four months after a death?
And so they look at it andassume like, okay, everyone else
is fine and I'm reallystruggling.
And so I must, something's wrongwith
Jana (30:20):
me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and, and anger, anger,especially it's.
With women in particular, right?
We are generally raised to stuffour anger away or let it not be
seen, cover it up, smile, and,be the nurturer and the human
giver that you are, right?
(30:42):
And God forbid, we shouldacknowledge our anger.
And anger is the number oneemotion.
That is associated with griefbecause it feels more productive
to be angry than it does To besad.
Sad feels stagnant and stuck andhelpless.
Anger is energizing andpowerful, right?
(31:07):
But the problem is women don'tfeel like they can engage with
their anger.
And so I also like to justprovide that like psycho
education for people thatWhatever you feel, including
your anger, is welcome here, andit's quite normal.
That's awesome.
Mandy (31:27):
Yeah.
Do you ever provide advice forloved ones who have someone
who's grieving and they don'tknow how to support them, and
what would you say to them as apsychotherapist?
How do they best be there for
Jana (31:39):
that person?
Yeah.
Don't speak in cliches.
That is the worst.
Right.
Every don't, don't ever sayeverything happens for a reason.
God doesn't give anybody whatthey can't handle.
I mean, if that's something thatyou personally believe for
yourself.
More power to you.
And if that helps youpersonally, that's wonderful.
(32:02):
I'm not bashing that, but noteverybody feels that way.
And so please make sure not toproject your own personal
beliefs on someone else becauseit actually could make them feel
worse.
So the best thing you can do isto first and foremost, just
acknowledge Thank I just want tosay I know that this must be an
(32:24):
extraordinarily difficult timefor you and I'm here.
I'm thinking about you.
I love you and please let meknow however I can support you,
right?
Yeah.
Perfect.
Right.
It's not, it's simple and it'snot trying to fix it.
It's not trying to fix it.
(32:45):
And it's not being dismissive.
We all need acknowledgement andsupport and validation.
So that's what you do when yousay something like that.
I love it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I do just want to say youknow, in addition to being a
psychotherapist my most recentcareer news is that in addition
(33:07):
to my, to my podcast, sheilluminated I am also expanding
into women's coaching for burntout women and specifically
working with a lot of momsaround burnout because one of
the, and this.
Ties back to grief because oneof the things that I experienced
when I became the only womanleft in the household, even
(33:29):
though I was the baby of thehousehold is that I started to
over function.
Right.
And like we were speaking aboutearlier, and that's kind of been
a default coping strategy ofmine ever since then.
And so I'm very familiar withburnout and taking care of
everybody else.
(33:50):
Go figure.
I'm a therapist.
And so but I've learned some,some tips and tricks over the
years.
And so this is also.
Like one of the number onethings that I see in my
practice.
So many women and momsspecifically who struggle with
burnout.
And I, I observed very oftenthat burnout also comes from
(34:11):
their over functioning fromgrief, from the narratives about
what women are supposed to beand do right from a whole host
of reasons, but grief.
And, and the narratives aboutwomen and gender roles are two
of the biggest ones.
So.
That's kind of like my, mylatest you know, area of
interest.
(34:31):
And I just wanted to kind oflike pass that on.
Yeah.
Mandy (34:35):
I love that you sort of had this early, early adulthood
experience that was obviously.
Earth shattering for you, butthen later in life, like looking
at it 24 years down the road,you've sort of taken that and
morphed it into different partsof your life.
So, you know, you brought itinto your work as a therapist
and now you're bringing it intothis work with women and, and
(34:58):
it's gonna continue to color andshape whatever it is that you're
out in the world.
And doing an offering to people,it's such an important lens
because it is so commonplace.
And it is such a universalexperience for people to go
through, whether it be the griefof, you know, a parent or
somebody super close or thegrief that comes with our daily
(35:18):
lives.
Right.
You mentioned COVID and we, youknow, we think about jobs and,
and roles and marriages andthings like that, which all
bring about grief.
And.
The skills that you have andthat you've learned how to talk
through with people in therapyare also the same skills that
I'm sure you're applying and inthis new realm with burnout.
They're,
Jana (35:37):
they're, they're similar.
They're similar.
The difference is with therapy,my clients, I have to diagnose
them, which don't get mestarted.
That's a whole other episode,but right, it's a medicalized
model.
And for insurance reimbursement,we have to diagnose with
something granted.
Many of my clients could.
are arguably be coachingclients, many of my therapy
(36:00):
clients.
But, you know so I, I like todraw that distinction for people
that if you're engaging withcoaching, it's not for a
clinical mental health struggle.
But it's for life circumstances.
That are very human and hard.
It doesn't mean you have aclinical mental health disorder
and P.
S.
Many of your listeners probablyalready know, but grief is not a
(36:23):
diagnosis, right?
It's normal to grieve.
Right.
It's an emotion and it's a, it'swe don't have to pathologize it.
So, yeah.
Mandy (36:36):
Yeah.
I really like that distinction.
I hadn't thought about that aslike the medicalized model and
then
Jana (36:41):
yeah.
Yeah.
I like that.
Yeah.
Mandy (36:44):
So if you want to mention the name of your podcast again,
but also your website and I'llmake sure all of that gets put
into the show notes for peopleso they can find you.
They're interested andconnected.
Yeah.
Jana (36:53):
If anyone is interested.
If you're interested inconnecting with me further, I'm
not currently accepting therapyclients at this time, but I am
accepting coaching clients, andyou can reach out to me at
Janna, that's J A N N A, atjanna.
org.
Fuchs coaching.
com.
And Fuchs is F as in Frank, U CH S as in Sam, Jana Fuchs,
(37:18):
coaching.
com.
And my podcast is called sheilluminated.
So feel free to check that outtoo.
I hope you enjoy today'sdiscussion with Janna.
At the beginning of the episode,she describes remembering the
conversation where she learnedabout her mother's diagnosis as
dark and the memories of theyear after the death as fuzzy.
As a braiding prompt today,consider a monumental moment in
(37:41):
your life.
Write about what comes up withthis memory.
What colors smells details.
Come to mind.
Thank you so much for listening.
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it and asalways visit, remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday
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