January 10, 2024 • 38 mins
Joined by Dr. Barbara Hopkinson, founder of A Butterfly's Journey, a nonprofit for resilience after loss, certified advanced Grief Recovery Method Specialist, speaker and author- we discuss her long winding story of loss from her parents to two babies and later her 21-year-old son followed by her second husband. Her grief took her to the brink of taking her own life, a brink she is grateful she came back from to go on and see her grandchildren born and growing happily.
Barbara is author of a memoir titled “A Butterfly’s Journey… Healing Grief After the Loss of a Child”, and the first in a series of photo books “Faces of Resilience”, as well as co-author of 8 other books. Barbara is a member of IAOTP, LOANI, and GSFE (Global Society of Female Entrepreneurs).
To find or connect with Barbara, visit her website- http://abutterflysjourney.org
or Contact her for a free 30 minute call: +1 617-410-6309 You can reach her by email- info@abutterflysjourney.org
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Thank you so much for listening. Wishing you well on whatever trail you find yourself walking today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief channels podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping you support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box.
Shipping within the U S asalways free.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
(00:22):
every detail.
This'll be the first episodereleasing in the new year, a
week later than I had intended.
My house has been full of COVIDaround the holidays.
And like so many of us learn todo when we are in grief,
learning to extend grace toourselves.
It is a lesson that I try tokeep with me for general life.
(00:43):
And recognizing that sometimesthings.
Are hard and the answer can beto rest rather than to push
through.
That said a new year oftenbrings the energy of fresh
starts and new ambitious goals.
And I just want to remindeveryone that it's okay.
If your goal this year is justto find more peace in your life.
(01:04):
I remember the first new yearsafter my mom died.
And even though it isn't a bigholiday, like Christmas is in
our family.
I remember there was somethingdaunting about entering a year
that she had never lived innever breathed in.
It wasn't my most happy new yearfull of incredible resolutions,
but it was a quiet one and onethat I worked through and went
(01:26):
on to find all sorts ofblessings waiting for me in that
year ahead.
Whether your holidays and newyear were happy or
extraordinarily difficult orsome confusing mixture of the
two.
I'm so happy that you're here.
And in today's episode, I think.
It will be a reminder of thegood things that can await us on
the other side of immensetragedy.
(01:47):
When we make the sometimesdifficult choice.
To stay and to Wade through thepain.
Today's guest is no stranger toloss.
She's lost several children, ahusband, and her vision in one
eye.
But the things she's gone on toachieve and their perspective
she's gained and incorporatedinto her life is proof that we
can go on, even when it's sohard.
(02:08):
Here to share her story is Dr.
Barbara Hopkinson.
Founder of a butterfly'sjourney, a nonprofit for
resilience after loss, as wellas the compassionate friends of
greater Newburyport,Massachusetts.
Which is part of the largestrecovery organization in the
world, supporting families aftera child dies.
In addition to these incredibleorganizations, she's also
(02:31):
certified as a specialist in thegrief recovery method.
Uh, speaker and an author.
I hope you'll enjoy listening toher story.
Let's take a listen.
Barbara (02:40):
Well, my name is Barbara Hopkinson.
I live north of Boston and Ispent probably 30 years in this
international technologysoftware industry and 10 years
with IBM.
And during that time, I lostboth parents.
I lost three of my fourchildren.
And I lost my second husband.
And a little bit later on, Iactually fell, I was swimming in
(03:04):
a triathlon with my niece and inpreparing for that at the gym, I
actually fell and detached myretina.
And that caused me to lose thesight in one eye.
So because of all the loss I,especially my 21 year old,
because it was my children weremy 21 year old.
Brent died in a motorcycleaccident on Arizona State
University.
And he had been to Army ROTChigh school and college.
(03:26):
He was on his way just about toget into the, as an army pilot.
He had already passed hiswritten aviation test.
And so that was a really suddenshock.
Before that, I had lost twobabies.
A miscarriage and a full termstillborn Robbie.
So, you know, all of that wasvery upsetting, but the, losing
the 21 year old just totallyrocked our lives.
So I my 30 year marriage fellapart a year after our son died.
(03:51):
And I had, my other son was 19at the time when, when Brent
died at 21, Brad, and he's stillwith us, thank God.
Yes.
And it was really tough on him,but he now has two children and
is a great chef.
He went to Johnson and Wales andhe owns his own restaurant in
this great little community townoutside of, you know, kind of a
Long suburb of Boston, BarrierIsland.
(04:12):
Anyway.
So, but when that happened theone, two punch of all of that I
did attempt suicide and hitbottom, but it became a turning
point for me.
And I instinctively knew thathelping others would help me
heal.
And luckily I called my sisterand got the heck out of, I was,
you know, a cup of monoxide andpull my, it was a trigger.
Something happened one day andit was a trigger.
(04:33):
And I just realized that I hadreally been already thinking
about retirement andgrandchildren.
And everything changed becausemy marriage fell apart.
You know, my children, my son,my oldest son was gone.
The one who was crazy aboutkids.
And it just, It just went on.
And so I pulled into the garageand just shut the door and was
serious about it.
(04:53):
But luckily, it gave me a fewminutes to think.
And I realized I couldn't dothat to my remaining son, Brad.
And thank God.
I mean, he's got two wonderfulchildren now.
And but anyway.
So I, I started within a year, Istarted my, founded my first non
profit, which was a localchapter of the Compassionate
Friends USA, a nationalorganization, and it's one of
(05:13):
New Report Mass, and so I ranthat for 20 years.
I just turned it over tosomebody else this past summer,
and about 10 years in, I wantedto do more.
I also released, a memoir, andso I started that in 2003.
I released a memoir in 2013, andstarted another non profit
called The Butterfly's Journeyfor More.
General grief, because thatsupport group was for families
(05:34):
that lost a child, grandchild,or sibling.
And and when I started AButterfly's Journey and then
turned that into a non profit,but for more general grief.
And that has three maincomponents.
It's got a free online resourcecenter.
I've got an advancedcertification to teach grief
recovery method classes.
I do that with any, any place.
over, over Zoom with anybodythat can speak English,
(05:55):
basically.
And that's the only evidencebased methodology in the world
for grief.
And I do it mostly one on one.
It's a seven week class, so it'sfinite and action based.
It's complimentary to supportgroups of therapy.
But anyway, and then the thirdthing that my nonprofit focuses
on is called Faces ofResilience.
So I actually do photo shoots.
(06:15):
At grief related events where weencourage open expression around
grief.
So a lot of times peopleespecially if they've lost a
child or some difficult, losseswith stigma, like suicide and
overdose and things like that.
It's very difficult for them.
People run from them, right?
And they just don't want to talkabout it.
And people hate to talk aboutgrief anyway.
(06:36):
So what the photo shoots do iswe encourage them to express
themselves.
And when they.
whatever phrase they want to saythat's special to them or
between them and their lovedone, I write it on their skin
with a washable marker.
And then we take a professionalphoto and we professionally edit
it and send it to them.
So it's very cathartic andvisceral for them to do it.
(06:56):
And then it's a catalyst forthem to talk about their grief
when they get the photo withtheir family and friends, which
is probably the most healingthing you can do.
That's incredible.
Mandy (07:04):
And I haven't heard about that.
So yeah, I love learning aboutthat.
It's definitely a resource I'dlove to share with other people.
And I'm sure people listening tothe podcast will be super
interested in that.
So
Barbara (07:15):
yeah, well, there's a, there's a book.
So my memoir is also called thebutterflies journey, healing
grief after the loss of a child.
But then I have a photo bookcalled faces of resilience.
With all different sorts ofgrief and, you know, it's just
first names of people that weuse, but it's, it's been very
well received and I've done itall over the country at several
national conferences, like briefparents of the USA and the
(07:35):
compassionate friends.
I've done it.
We just did one a couple ofweeks ago at an organization
called sad OD, which is supportafter death to overdose and.
We've done it at, you know,overcoming addiction, vigils on
grief cruises all over thecountry, Canada, the Caribbean,
London.
I've got phrases in 12languages.
And I really want to take thatmore international and do themed
(07:57):
books related to all thesephotos, but yeah, that's my
passion.
Wow.
I
Mandy (08:01):
mean, what an incredible journey.
But if we can go back, I knowthat's okay.
There's a lot to talk about.
Statistically, I know I'veheard, and I don't know the
actual statistics that losing achild is.
Often a catalyst for divorcethat many partners and married
(08:22):
couples have difficultynavigating the grief of losing a
child.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Barbara (08:29):
Yeah, I'm not sure what the stats are either.
And I think some of them are alittle off because I know some
people say, you know what, thatwas probably had issues in the
marriage anyway.
And mine did as well.
We had separated a couple oftimes and it was just a catalyst
to finish it off, but it wasn'tthe whole cause.
But I think it's a fairly highpercentage taking that into
(08:49):
account, like maybe 70.
I mean, I don't, I don't reallyknow what it is.
But the I think in my experienceand especially working with so
many couples that have lostchildren in addition to my own
experience, people either getvery close together.
And really support each other.
Well, or they split apartbecause they grieve very
differently.
My ex and I grieved extremelydifferently.
(09:12):
I mean, we're very differentpersonalities anyway, but we
just went opposite directions interms of our grief and and that
was tough.
That was tough to navigate.
And, you know, he kind of movedon to other pastures.
Mandy (09:25):
So, yeah, what kind of advice do you give couples who
are in that
Barbara (09:30):
scenario?
First of all, not to expect eachother to grieve the same and to
give each other space and tounderstand you're going to
grieve differently.
And it's, it's very, it's tough.
I mean, especially a loss thattraumatic because you don't
expect your children to diebefore you.
It's just not the natural orderof things.
And so it's.
(09:50):
I would just say you really tobe just some understanding and
some patience and not expectthem to just interpret or know
what you're, what you're feelingor going through, because each
of your relationships with yourchild or anybody for that matter
is individual.
I mean, even pets, right?
I mean, I've had a motherthat's, that has lost her, her
(10:11):
dog, but her dog was really likeher child.
You know, so that's, it's just,it's unique to each person and
each person grieves in their ownunique way and in their own
timeframe.
There are no rules around thisstuff.
There's no, there's nodeadlines.
It is what it is.
You do it, it makes, it helps ifyou work at it, you know, if you
(10:31):
don't isolate and you actuallygo and do things.
to try to help yourself.
You know, I can go into a bunchof suggestions if you want me
to, but
Mandy (10:40):
for you after the loss of your son and getting to that
really low point in your life,where you considered ending your
own life after that point, whathelped you move through your
grief?
And you know, I know youmentioned that you started a
foundation, but like, whathappened in the, in between,
between those two things and howdid you get to the place where
you felt like you were ready tostart something for other
(11:02):
people?
Barbara (11:03):
I think luckily, I had an instinct that helping others
would help me heal.
And so, you know, after the, theinitial phase of literally,
hardly being able to get out ofbed, and just, I mean, just to
get up and make coffee or anysort of a meal was a real
effort.
But I did go back to work aftera couple of weeks, which was too
(11:24):
early, but it did force me out,you know, into the world, and I
did have supportive family andfriends, which helped a lot
because isolation is, is tough.
It's really tough on you.
But I ended up doing so, so Iwent out and actually searched
for looked up other briefparents.
And then we talked aboutstarting this group and and I
got some help with a couple ofpeople and I, we considered
(11:46):
doing it on our own.
But then someone told me aboutthe compassionate friends that
focuses on that.
And so I talked to the regionaldirector and he came out and met
with me and we decided to dothat because they would have a
lot more resource.
So that took, you know, took awhile to focus and get all that
going.
And then we, we, we actually hadour first meeting.
Within a week of the first yearof my son's death.
(12:10):
So that was kind of the targetand yeah, that's unusual.
It goes that fast, but I'm adoer.
So to me, it helps me to jump inand do something about it, you
know and then I was working forIBM and a really high pressure
job.
We didn't talk about things likespirituality.
I didn't even know what the wordmeant.
but that was such a shock to methat not only did I.
Tell I was in a really highpressure job, but I requested to
(12:32):
move.
And my boss was resistant at thetime, but I said to them, look,
the worst thing that couldhappen to me has, so you
therefore have no power over meanymore.
I don't care about yourdeadlines and your quotas, let
me out of this job or I'll justleave the company.
And which was crazy, you know,financially at the time, but I
would've done it.
But anyway, we did.
And then I had one of the bestjobs I ever had in a very
(12:53):
understanding boss, but., Istarted on this exploration and
the butterfly's journey reallyto me means I was on a journey
to figure out whether or not myson's spirit continued.
And so I got into all kinds ofexploration and reading about
spirituality and a lot of theafterlife stuff and things like
that.
And that helped me, that helpedme a lot.
(13:14):
And I finally proved to myselfthat absolutely did his spirit
continue and all of our spiritscontinue.
And I've gotten some signs thatwere pretty irrefutable.
So that all helped.
I, you know, I did things like Itried energy healing.
I had no idea what energyhealing was, but I've got a
friend who's a shaman whoexplained it to me.
And I tried it and it helped alot.
(13:34):
And so then I tried every formof energy healing you could
think of.
You know, I did, I did shamanicmassage and reflexology and
acupuncture and polarity andReiki and, you know, whatever.
You know, I think it's reallyimportant to keep an open mind
and keep trying things becauseyou never know what's going to
help.
And that stuff helped.
Journaling helped tremendously.
(13:54):
Walking in nature helped.
You know, just being verydeliberate about trying to do
that.
And what I tell people is one ofthe biggest turning points for
me was when I finally got to thepoint where I could think of my
son's loss as a gift.
I'm sorry, but his life as agift, not just a loss.
(14:14):
Because if I, when I thoughtabout it and said, okay, if I
had two choices, I either neverget, never have known him, or
get to do it all over again,what would I do?
And I would absolutely do it allover again, as hard as it was.
Because, you know, the 21 yearsI had with him was such a gift,
you know, now when I think ofhim, I don't think of the loss,
(14:36):
I think of all the, you know,mother son trips we did and he
talked me into a bungee jumponce, we did front seats of
roller coasters all day one day,you know, it was an adrenaline
jockey.
So it
Mandy (14:47):
was nice.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
What else can you tell me abouthim?
I love to hear about people andlike their personalities, but
bungee jumping is terrifying.
So that tells me a little bitabout him.
Barbara (14:59):
Yeah, he was, he was really he was very bright and he
was mature for his age and veryindependent.
And so his name was Brent, BrentRobert DeLibro.
And he, Oh, God, he was askingso many questions, but you can
talk and was kind of achallenge.
He just make up stories like,like, we'd be in a movie and he
was trying to talk to these kidsout of some candy because I
(15:19):
wouldn't buy him candy.
I was in 1 of those.
No sugar phases.
He, he, they just said, well, ifyou can tell me, he told him he
had already seen the movie.
He knew the story.
story.
And they said, well, if you cando that, you know, I'll, I'll
give you some of my candy.
And he just made it up, youknow, made it up on the fly.
And then he, he pushed me to puthim on a plane by himself at age
11 to go visit.
(15:40):
I had sent him to visit mycousin in Florida, one of my
cousins in Florida, cause he wasdying to go do something on his
own.
And then he went off, he camehome from, I think his first
year in high school, you know,flunk in science, and he was way
too bright for that.
And we were on his case, and hesaid, I want to be a pilot, I
want to go to military highschool.
And so we went looking forplaces, and he found the oldest,
(16:02):
starkest one he could find.
He moved out at 15, and went toNew York Military Academy, in
Cornwall and Hudson, New York.
And I remember the first week.
He called because they wouldn'tlet him call for a week.
Right.
And he called and he saidsomething.
I had done 300 pushups because Iknew he was testing the
boundaries with them.
And every time he tested aboundary, they made him do a
whole bunch of pushups and heloved it.
(16:24):
He just he ended up being thirdcaptain chief of staff got a
full scholarship out to ArizonaState University.
He could have gotten into WestPoint, but by then he was
already near West Point for 3years and he was.
Board with that, he went out toArizona, loved it out there, met
a woman he was getting engagedto, and she's a sweetheart,
Laura, and and then he did, hegot through ASU, and he had
(16:45):
already passed his writtenaviation test, and he was just
about to go to boot camp afterhis junior year in college.
And and he would have committedeight years to the army to get,
be trained as a Comancheira.
He wanted to be a ComancheiraApache jet powered helicopter
pilot.
So he was driven.
He was, you know, he was really
Mandy (17:01):
self motivated.
And very independent.
Barbara (17:03):
Yeah, very, very independent.
Yeah.
I mean, he'd walk in, he couldwalk in, he's the kind of kid
that at 16, he'd walk in, ourhouse with adult friends, you
know, and offer them a drink.
Or, you know, he'd be ascomfortable around a CEO as he
was around one of his buddies.
He's just an unusual.
I think maybe I think a lot ofthe kids are like that when they
die young.
It's almost like theirsubconscious knows it's going to
(17:24):
happen and they mature and theyfit a lot into their life.
And he did that.
And we were both pretty strongwilled.
So it was pretty funny, but hewas great.
No, I
Mandy (17:35):
believe that too.
I believe I believe that there,there is something
subconsciously that people whodie young sometimes do fit a
little bit more into their lives
Barbara (17:45):
than.
Yeah.
And it had a big impact ofcourse on his brother that was
really tough on him and it lefthim to be an only child because
he lost his older and hisyounger brother, but he gained a
lot of confidence that he wentto Johnson and Wales.
Which is one of the top cookingschools in the country.
And then after he graduated hegot an opportunity to buy a
small restaurant.
And he did.
(18:05):
And then he really flourishedwith his own confidence and
stuff.
And because, you know, he wasmore of a creative, hands on
sort of a kid.
And and so now he owns his own,a bigger restaurant, a seafood
restaurant.
Yeah.
So it's, anyway, it's great.
Was
Mandy (18:17):
he living at home with you when this happened or was he
already on his own?
Barbara (18:22):
No, he was 19.
He had just graduated highschool.
So this happened.
This literally happened.
All right.
So the week that Brent died,this is crazy.
All right.
So we got the call on Fridaymorning that he had had an
accident.
I was on a business trip for IBMin New Jersey.
My ex husband got the call.
They couldn't reach me because Iwas in a brick building that my
(18:42):
cell phone wasn't working.
And so it took them four hoursto track me down.
Because I had been with a friendthe night before my boss knew
where I was kind of thingvisiting a customer.
So my son, Brad had just comehome from his overnight senior
prom, and happened to stop inbecause they had breakfast
across the street, and saw hisfather packing.
(19:04):
So they got on a plane, and whenI, when they finally got through
to me the plane was, they werejust about to close the door on
their flight to Arizona.
And so I ran out and ran toNewark airport, had all kinds of
problems getting through what Ineeded to do to get to basically
a friend routed them through.
Newark, and I met them at NewarkAirport, and we flew to Arizona
(19:27):
together, and we didn't know itbut while we were in the air
they pronounced Brent braindead, again, he had promised us
he wouldn't get on a motorcyclewithout a helmet there's no
helmet law out there but somekid, you know, came and they
switched vehicles and.
You know, they think you'reinvincible at 21 and his brain
swelled and choked out hisbrainstem.
So we flew out there and thatwas Friday.
(19:47):
We took him off life support onSaturday.
We went through his, his, he wassharing a house with two other
guys.
We went through his house andhis girlfriend's house with all
this stuff on Sunday, on Monday.
They had a a service and afuneral at the chapel on campus
on Tuesday.
We flew home from Arizona onWednesday.
(20:08):
His body was embalmed and flewhome on Thursday.
Brad graduated high school.
Oh, no.
And Friday and Saturday wasBrent's wake wake and funeral.
So that whole week it was, itwas lunacy.
It was lunacy.
Yeah.
And for Brad.
Yeah.
Right.
But we had, and we had a lot ofreally good theater friends and
(20:29):
we had about 18 of us allcheering for him at the, at his
graduation, and had a littleparty back at the house
afterwards, but everybody knewthe situation but we Made the
best of it, but it was tough.
It was absolutely.
And then he actually went, hewent off to college a couple of
months later and he did flunkout of his first year in
college, but he got back in andfinished, but because of grief.
(20:51):
And then he brought, we had hisbrother's car shipped home and
he was driving that and his cargot stolen and totally stripped
at college, on the collegecampus, even though it was
locked, there was nothing.
It took the engine, it tookeverything.
It was nothing except a frameleft.
And so that was like a violationof his brother's.
Car as well.
So he had a really tough yearthat year.
(21:11):
Wow.
But he's, he's been amazing nowfour and a six year old and
they're awesome.
Mandy (21:17):
Yeah, I imagine for you as a mom to you know you're in
such deep grief, you've lostyour child and, but then you
still have your other childthere at home with you and like
trying to navigate his grief andAnd parents,
Barbara (21:32):
a lot of kids do, you know, and his friends were, you
know, good and around for amonth or two, like our friends
are, and then everybody goes onwith their lives, you know?
And it was, it was tough forthem.
He had, he had a hard time and Iworried about him, and, you
know, tried to make him go tocounseling.
I think he went twice.
I was the only one was intherapy, but, you know, just
(21:55):
part of what, what happens butanyway, yeah, we did talk about
it a lot and we still, we stilldo occasionally, you know, and
that's, that's, that's all been.
helpful.
And then I got married a secondtime to Jim and he was awesome.
He was a great stepdad to, toBrad and did so many things to
help him with his restaurant andeverything.
And he had three adult kids.
So I have three adult stepkidsgirls, the oldest and she's not
(22:18):
married, but the two boys are,and they each one's got a little
girl and the other one's got twoboys.
So I've got five grandchildrenfrom age one to six.
So, so that's really that's theloves of my life, but I'm very
close to somebody, but we weremarried.
Almost 12 years.
And then he died on his way towork.
We don't make a heart attack.
Just bam.
We had tickets for a show thatnight and we were, it was a
(22:39):
really good, that was a reallygood marriage.
And it just you just never know,right.
You just on his way to work andit's gone.
Yeah.
So,
Mandy (22:49):
so both of you're like, yeah.
So these like huge losses inyour life have been sudden and
unexpected.
Barbara (22:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, they were.
And actually both my parentswere somewhat, somewhat sudden
to come to think of it.
Yeah.
I mean, this is right.
This is good and bad both ways,right?
Because you don't really wantsomebody going through a lot of
suffering either.
And people around them, it'shard on them as well.
And it's not some people say,well, at least you had time to,
you know, to get used to it.
(23:17):
I don't think you do.
I don't think it's real until ithappens.
You know so it affects everybodywhen it happens, regardless of
whether it's long or short,nobody escapes it.
Right.
Right.
Everybody in the world has somesort of grief.
Mandy (23:31):
no one escapes it.
And I think what you said is youjust never know.
I mean, that's like how I livemy life now, because you just
don't, you and for me, like mostof my loss has been sudden also.
And so very conscious of time isfinite and we don't know how
much we have and you know what'sgonna happen.
Right.
Yeah.
Trying to like live the lifethat you wanna live
Barbara (23:53):
now, right?
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I'll keep putting thingsoff.
Oh, there's a great song aboutthat.
Until you can't, I think it'seither Luke Combs or somebody's
a country song, but it's untilyou can.
It's fairly recent.
It's this year and it's like,oh, it's a really wonderful song
because it basically is goesthrough all these things.
You know, you can, you can dothat.
(24:14):
Like putting things off untilyou can't.
You know, it makes you reallythink about, yeah, about not,
not putting things off.
So yeah, no, I treat life verydifferently than I used to.
And what's important.
Mandy (24:27):
And I know you said that you did a lot of spiritual.
Work and looking into different,different things and seeing what
resonated with you.
And you mentioned havingdifferent signs over the years.
Is there anything you can sharewith listeners that you, any
experience you've had that youwould want to share?
Barbara (24:45):
Yeah, and I do think people should do what's
comfortable for them, right?
That might be religion, it mightnot be.
For me it really wasn't.
I grew up Catholic and I believein God and all that, but I just
had pulled away from it.
And I tried to get back into itafterwards, but it just didn't
work for me.
But the kind of the directconnection between me and God
and the spirituality did.
And again, I learned, I did alot of reading and research
(25:07):
about kind of what happens inspirits continuing.
But with my son.
There's several things I couldmention, but probably one of the
most convincing is later on Ihad a, a friend who is a
musician, and she was over herewhen I think we were just
working out because she hadactually played at a New Year's
Eve party I had, and she's asongwriter as well, but we were,
(25:29):
we were just working out likearound my, my living room,
dining room area.
And she asked me about music forthe book before I had released
it.
The first, my first book, thememoir.
I said, gee, no, I didn't thinkof that, but that's kind of an
interesting concept.
And then she got this feelingand said, I've got to go get my
keyboard out of my car.
And I watched her channel music.
(25:49):
I mean, she did something thatshe couldn't have made up on the
fly because it had too manylayers to it.
And, and I had a very strongemotional reaction to it.
And I didn't know why.
And I asked her what, what isthat?
Where's that coming from?
And she looked around the room.
She didn't have a med print.
She picked out his picture andsaid, that's where it's coming
from.
And so later on, I had her.
Actually record the video.
(26:09):
It's on my website, which is abutterfliesjourney.
org and it's possessive, notplural.
So it's YS, not IES.
And and so it's, it's a, it's afree gift, that one.
And and then she did another onelater on when I met her for
dinner on the 10th anniversaryof his death.
And there was another one thathe had pulled her out of a
garden and, and channeled and wehad them both recorded.
(26:30):
But the even more interestingthing was.
She then he figured out that hecould talk to her and she
understood him.
She just had that talent.
She wasn't a medium.
She didn't.
off of those services.
But once he did, he'd startgiving her messages for me.
So there was one time when Iwent to a wedding in New Jersey
and I was, I was renting myhouse.
I live on the ocean up north andI was renting it for the summer
(26:53):
and I moved into the otherhouse, but because we were away
for the weekend, it was Mondaymorning.
I decided to unpack.
I decided to take a walk first.
And so I'm on my walk, and onthe way back, I get this text
from Nancy, and she said, Brentsays, be careful going up your
front steps, mom.
She had never been to thishouse.
And I said, okay, and I cameback, and by now I'm used to
getting messages from them.
(27:14):
And the entire length of thestep was cracked.
If I had put my weight on it, Iwould have fallen and gotten
hurt.
So that again, that's a prettyintangible.
She had never been there.
It was out of the blue.
She just texted me out of theblue.
And so I've got a couple of themlike that.
I could go on for a while.
Mandy (27:30):
I love to hear things like that.
I don't know.
I know there are people who areskeptical and I think until
Barbara (27:38):
the way right right but there's no way that she knew
anything she'd never been tothat house she had no idea she
didn't even know I was outwalking and was about to go back
to the steps, you know,
Mandy (27:47):
yeah, I love that.
I know I've shared this beforeso if people have listened to
all my episodes they've probablyheard this story.
So I apologize to anyone who'salready heard this but I just
want to tell you because youjust shared that with me.
so much.
I, on one, I think it was maybethe 10th anniversary of my mom
dying and my brother, who's nextyoungest to me, him and I
(28:10):
decided we were going to havelike a FaceTime call and have a
toast to our mom because it wasthe anniversary and he was on
vacation with his wife and hiskids and he like put them to bed
and him and his wife and me andmy husband, we all got on this
call and we like set a toast tomy mom.
And at this point, we, myyounger brother had died also
like a couple of years prior tothat.
(28:31):
And so we like set our thingsand then I was like, okay, enjoy
your night.
You're on vacation.
And like five minutes later, hetexts me and was like, Mandy, I
just pulled out a deck of cards.
I had thrown it in my suitcasewhen we've packed from home
because I figured my wife and Ican like play cards after the
kids go to bed.
And so they, they dumped out thecards after we talked on the
(28:52):
phone and in the deck of cardswas our youngest brothers.
High school ID from the year ourmom died.
It was like, wow.
Yeah.
It was just so cool.
So, you know, that was like my,and they, and they
Barbara (29:06):
knew they had not put it in the deck of cards earlier
to store it or anything.
He was
Mandy (29:10):
like, I have no idea.
Like, is it, have I never openedthis deck of cards in the last
few years?
Maybe, but it was so weird thatit was on that day and it was
from that year and like, Ohyeah, that's really cool.
Yeah.
I love to hear about stuff likethat.
Barbara (29:25):
Yeah, no, I'm sorry for the loss of your brother and
your Yeah, I
Mandy (29:28):
mean, that's why we're all here doing this work, right?
You know, you're out doing yourwork, and we're all just, I
think everybody, not everybody,but like one of the ways I think
that some people get through itis to put things back in the
world to help other people intheir own experience, and
Barbara (29:44):
I really think, I mean, again, when I wrote my memoir,
it was ten years after my olderson died, and the last chapter
is about the three mostimportant things I learned.
And one of them was aboutkeeping an open mind and
trusting your gut for what worksfor you and not really listening
to everybody's advice becausethey don't really know, you know
but to keep an open mind and trythings you haven't tried.
(30:06):
And then the second thing washelping others helps you heal,
because that's, there'ssomething about it and it
doesn't have to do with how theydied, right, it doesn't have to
be related it's just, there'ssomething about helping others,
whether it's, People, kids,pets, whatever it is that really
is very healing.
And the appreciation that youget is healing as well.
(30:28):
And then the third thing was,it's all about the love and
that's about focusing on thosegood memories and understanding
that their life was a gift toyou, not just a loss.
So anyway, that's my little,
Mandy (30:39):
I love it.
Yeah.
I love all the advice that wecan give.
And yeah, your story and yourjourney through all of this is
incredible.
Barbara (30:47):
It's changed me, but it's also, I mean, I've met, met
so many, so many people thathave become such close friends
that have gone through thistragic kind of loss because they
get it.
They don't take life for grantedanymore, you know, and they,
they just.
They don't whine.
They don't waste time.
Like I don't waste time onnegativity.
I just, if somebody is in one ofthose conversations, I'll just
(31:09):
walk away.
You know, it's like, sorry,you're clueless.
I just don't, I don't have anypatience for negativity and when
wasting time on silly.
Silly things and, and peoplewhining and things.
It's like, yeah, get over it.
And there's,
Mandy (31:22):
there's such a power, in shared experience, you know
connecting with other peoplewho've been through not, you
know, it doesn't have to be thesame type of loss even, but
people who just get it andunderstand where you're coming
from.
Barbara (31:35):
Right.
No, absolutely.
And it does, it changes you.
It makes you, it makes yourealize what's important and
what's not.
Absolutely.
And that's quite a gift.
It's a difficult way to receivethat gift, but it's quite a
gift.
I agree.
Mandy (31:50):
So where could people go to find your memoir to learn
more about your foundation?
What's your website or socialmedia
Barbara (31:58):
handles?
Yeah, the, the the website isabutterfliesjourney.
org and that's possessive, notplural.
And it's the same thing onFacebook and on Instagram.
And the and there's also facesof resilience, which is about
the photos and there's a photogallery on the.
A butterfly's journey websiteAmazon has the first book, which
(32:19):
is the memoir, a butterfly'sjourney, healing grief after the
loss of a child.
The second book was faces ofresilience.
And I'm part of eight otherbooks, but it's really not worth
going through all those.
But the Faith Finding Answers inthe Heart Volume 2 is one of
them that comes to mind rightaway.
But yeah, I probably do moreactivity on Facebook than the
(32:41):
other social media, because thatseems to be where most of the
people that are, that areinterested are.
And anyway, so, but besides thatwebsite, you could email me at
barbara or info at A Butterfly'sJourney.
The phone number is 617 4106309.
And you know, I do free calls todiscuss the brief recovery
(33:01):
method classes.
I'm happy to spend a half anhour doing that you know,
talking to somebody to seewhether it's useful for them.
And I've done some group classesand I can arrange that, but I,
but I usually do one on one.
I find it to be the mosteffective.
And then the only other thingI'd say is if somebody wanted to
do A photo shoot kind of a thinglike a phases of resilience
photo shoot at an event.
(33:23):
I'm happy to do that too.
You know, it's basically justcovering expenses.
And that's always well received.
It's kind of hard to understandit until you see it in action,
but it's very well received.
Mandy (33:33):
It sounds like it.
I'm part of a couple differentevents and things like I'm part
of a local recovery organizationthat focuses on fitness for
recovery from addiction and theydo like an annual event and part
of it is remembering people whohave been lost to addiction.
So yeah, I can imagine somethinglike that would be such a Is
(33:54):
that
Barbara (33:55):
how you lost your brother?
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
But, you know, again, an organfriend of mine who is used to be
the chairman of the board forcompassionate friends now
started the organization calledSaturday and it's s a d o d.
org.
And another I heard
Mandy (34:10):
you mention that I actually am not familiar with
Barbara (34:12):
that one.
Yeah, that's great.
No, it's very good.
That's in the space inMassachusetts, but they're
actually starting to reach outto other states and stuff now.
And I know open to hope.
com has got an amazing probablythe biggest resource center, I
have a resource center on myside too but that one is just
got all I mean thousands ofresources for grief, which is
which is lovely.
(34:33):
Yeah, I just met some reallyjust incredible.
People and and we're all justtrying to help people.
Mandy (34:39):
Yeah.
No, I love the project with thephotos and everything.
It sounds amazing.
And you know, like you'reoffering such great services.
So so appreciate your timecoming on to talk to everyone.
I will include links and likeyour usernames and everything in
the show notes so people canfind it
Barbara (34:57):
easily.
Just that I do a free half hourcall.
Because it's the only evidencebased methodology in the world.
It's been used 40 years on sixcontinents and it was written by
a bereaved dad.
So it's, it's, it's veryeffective and it's very
different from support ortherapy, but it's very
complimentary to those,
Mandy (35:14):
yeah.
Is there any, any last thingthat you want to leave in anyone
with them?
Some, anything we didn't cover
Barbara (35:20):
together.
I think usually when I try togive somebody maybe a little
advice at the end, it's, it'sreally try not to isolate, try
to reach out when you'refeeling, you know, down and, or
get out of the house and, go,find something you like to do or
somebody calling a friend or, ora family member or whatever, but
also really trust your gut,right?
(35:40):
Don't let other people'sopinions of what you should do
get, right?
Too deep into your head.
Just trust your gut and justkeep an open mind and keep
trying stuff because there is nomagic bullet here But there is
everything that you try willliterally help a little and what
I tell people is try threedifferent things and then Keep
using the one or two that workand drop one and try another You
(36:02):
know that kind of thing anddon't try something just once
try it once twice or three timesTo see whether or not you think
it helps right just just kind ofHaving some tenacity and some
patience and keeping an openmind, and the last thing is,
please trust that your lovedones are still with you in
spirit, whether you get signs ornot.
And, you know, depending onthere's all kinds of things that
(36:24):
affect that.
But just trust it.
They are absolutely still withyou.
When you think about it, the lawof physics said that nothing
ever goes away.
It just changes form, right?
Maybe from energy to, to matterand back, but it doesn't really
disappear.
That's the first thing that gotme really believing that that
could be possible.
Mandy (36:42):
I think your story is such a powerful reminder that
things as bad as they are in themoment will get better.
And, that your life is worthstaying and, there are people
who love you.
And so you know, pushing throughthe difficult moments and
reaching out for help so thatyou can get to the better
moments
Barbara (37:01):
that are ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not fast and it's not easy,but it absolutely is worth it.
And I'm happy now and I havefive grandkids and.
You know, my son and three stepkids and their partners and, you
know, it's, it's wonderful.
And I'm looking forward to thenext phase and maybe even,
having a partner again, and, youknow, we'll just, whatever.
(37:24):
So yeah, it's okay.
It's, it's, it's good.
You can, people can, I know somepeople say you can't ever
recover.
Maybe, I mean, it's not like youever stopped missing them, but
absolutely can heal.
Yeah.
I believe that.
I hope you enjoyed and tooksomething away from listening to
Barbara story.
She talked several times abouthow helping others helped
herself and experience that Ican also relate to.
(37:47):
So for today's journal prompt,write about a time you helped
someone and what that experiencegave you in return.
Or write about how you wouldlike to help others, if you
could like always let thewriting lead you in whatever
direction it takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
(38:07):
Visit remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief channels podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from remember grams.
A small business dedicated tohelping you support those in
your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box.
Shipping within the U S asalways free.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
(00:22):
every detail.
This'll be the first episodereleasing in the new year, a
week later than I had intended.
My house has been full of COVIDaround the holidays.
And like so many of us learn todo when we are in grief,
learning to extend grace toourselves.
It is a lesson that I try tokeep with me for general life.
(00:43):
And recognizing that sometimesthings.
Are hard and the answer can beto rest rather than to push
through.
That said a new year oftenbrings the energy of fresh
starts and new ambitious goals.
And I just want to remindeveryone that it's okay.
If your goal this year is justto find more peace in your life.
(01:04):
I remember the first new yearsafter my mom died.
And even though it isn't a bigholiday, like Christmas is in
our family.
I remember there was somethingdaunting about entering a year
that she had never lived innever breathed in.
It wasn't my most happy new yearfull of incredible resolutions,
but it was a quiet one and onethat I worked through and went
(01:26):
on to find all sorts ofblessings waiting for me in that
year ahead.
Whether your holidays and newyear were happy or
extraordinarily difficult orsome confusing mixture of the
two.
I'm so happy that you're here.
And in today's episode, I think.
It will be a reminder of thegood things that can await us on
the other side of immensetragedy.
(01:47):
When we make the sometimesdifficult choice.
To stay and to Wade through thepain.
Today's guest is no stranger toloss.
She's lost several children, ahusband, and her vision in one
eye.
But the things she's gone on toachieve and their perspective
she's gained and incorporatedinto her life is proof that we
can go on, even when it's sohard.
(02:08):
Here to share her story is Dr.
Barbara Hopkinson.
Founder of a butterfly'sjourney, a nonprofit for
resilience after loss, as wellas the compassionate friends of
greater Newburyport,Massachusetts.
Which is part of the largestrecovery organization in the
world, supporting families aftera child dies.
In addition to these incredibleorganizations, she's also
(02:31):
certified as a specialist in thegrief recovery method.
Uh, speaker and an author.
I hope you'll enjoy listening toher story.
Let's take a listen.
Barbara (02:40):
Well, my name is Barbara Hopkinson.
I live north of Boston and Ispent probably 30 years in this
international technologysoftware industry and 10 years
with IBM.
And during that time, I lostboth parents.
I lost three of my fourchildren.
And I lost my second husband.
And a little bit later on, Iactually fell, I was swimming in
(03:04):
a triathlon with my niece and inpreparing for that at the gym, I
actually fell and detached myretina.
And that caused me to lose thesight in one eye.
So because of all the loss I,especially my 21 year old,
because it was my children weremy 21 year old.
Brent died in a motorcycleaccident on Arizona State
University.
And he had been to Army ROTChigh school and college.
(03:26):
He was on his way just about toget into the, as an army pilot.
He had already passed hiswritten aviation test.
And so that was a really suddenshock.
Before that, I had lost twobabies.
A miscarriage and a full termstillborn Robbie.
So, you know, all of that wasvery upsetting, but the, losing
the 21 year old just totallyrocked our lives.
So I my 30 year marriage fellapart a year after our son died.
(03:51):
And I had, my other son was 19at the time when, when Brent
died at 21, Brad, and he's stillwith us, thank God.
Yes.
And it was really tough on him,but he now has two children and
is a great chef.
He went to Johnson and Wales andhe owns his own restaurant in
this great little community townoutside of, you know, kind of a
Long suburb of Boston, BarrierIsland.
(04:12):
Anyway.
So, but when that happened theone, two punch of all of that I
did attempt suicide and hitbottom, but it became a turning
point for me.
And I instinctively knew thathelping others would help me
heal.
And luckily I called my sisterand got the heck out of, I was,
you know, a cup of monoxide andpull my, it was a trigger.
Something happened one day andit was a trigger.
(04:33):
And I just realized that I hadreally been already thinking
about retirement andgrandchildren.
And everything changed becausemy marriage fell apart.
You know, my children, my son,my oldest son was gone.
The one who was crazy aboutkids.
And it just, It just went on.
And so I pulled into the garageand just shut the door and was
serious about it.
(04:53):
But luckily, it gave me a fewminutes to think.
And I realized I couldn't dothat to my remaining son, Brad.
And thank God.
I mean, he's got two wonderfulchildren now.
And but anyway.
So I, I started within a year, Istarted my, founded my first non
profit, which was a localchapter of the Compassionate
Friends USA, a nationalorganization, and it's one of
(05:13):
New Report Mass, and so I ranthat for 20 years.
I just turned it over tosomebody else this past summer,
and about 10 years in, I wantedto do more.
I also released, a memoir, andso I started that in 2003.
I released a memoir in 2013, andstarted another non profit
called The Butterfly's Journeyfor More.
General grief, because thatsupport group was for families
(05:34):
that lost a child, grandchild,or sibling.
And and when I started AButterfly's Journey and then
turned that into a non profit,but for more general grief.
And that has three maincomponents.
It's got a free online resourcecenter.
I've got an advancedcertification to teach grief
recovery method classes.
I do that with any, any place.
over, over Zoom with anybodythat can speak English,
(05:55):
basically.
And that's the only evidencebased methodology in the world
for grief.
And I do it mostly one on one.
It's a seven week class, so it'sfinite and action based.
It's complimentary to supportgroups of therapy.
But anyway, and then the thirdthing that my nonprofit focuses
on is called Faces ofResilience.
So I actually do photo shoots.
(06:15):
At grief related events where weencourage open expression around
grief.
So a lot of times peopleespecially if they've lost a
child or some difficult, losseswith stigma, like suicide and
overdose and things like that.
It's very difficult for them.
People run from them, right?
And they just don't want to talkabout it.
And people hate to talk aboutgrief anyway.
(06:36):
So what the photo shoots do iswe encourage them to express
themselves.
And when they.
whatever phrase they want to saythat's special to them or
between them and their lovedone, I write it on their skin
with a washable marker.
And then we take a professionalphoto and we professionally edit
it and send it to them.
So it's very cathartic andvisceral for them to do it.
(06:56):
And then it's a catalyst forthem to talk about their grief
when they get the photo withtheir family and friends, which
is probably the most healingthing you can do.
That's incredible.
Mandy (07:04):
And I haven't heard about that.
So yeah, I love learning aboutthat.
It's definitely a resource I'dlove to share with other people.
And I'm sure people listening tothe podcast will be super
interested in that.
So
Barbara (07:15):
yeah, well, there's a, there's a book.
So my memoir is also called thebutterflies journey, healing
grief after the loss of a child.
But then I have a photo bookcalled faces of resilience.
With all different sorts ofgrief and, you know, it's just
first names of people that weuse, but it's, it's been very
well received and I've done itall over the country at several
national conferences, like briefparents of the USA and the
(07:35):
compassionate friends.
I've done it.
We just did one a couple ofweeks ago at an organization
called sad OD, which is supportafter death to overdose and.
We've done it at, you know,overcoming addiction, vigils on
grief cruises all over thecountry, Canada, the Caribbean,
London.
I've got phrases in 12languages.
And I really want to take thatmore international and do themed
(07:57):
books related to all thesephotos, but yeah, that's my
passion.
Wow.
I
Mandy (08:01):
mean, what an incredible journey.
But if we can go back, I knowthat's okay.
There's a lot to talk about.
Statistically, I know I'veheard, and I don't know the
actual statistics that losing achild is.
Often a catalyst for divorcethat many partners and married
(08:22):
couples have difficultynavigating the grief of losing a
child.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat?
Barbara (08:29):
Yeah, I'm not sure what the stats are either.
And I think some of them are alittle off because I know some
people say, you know what, thatwas probably had issues in the
marriage anyway.
And mine did as well.
We had separated a couple oftimes and it was just a catalyst
to finish it off, but it wasn'tthe whole cause.
But I think it's a fairly highpercentage taking that into
(08:49):
account, like maybe 70.
I mean, I don't, I don't reallyknow what it is.
But the I think in my experienceand especially working with so
many couples that have lostchildren in addition to my own
experience, people either getvery close together.
And really support each other.
Well, or they split apartbecause they grieve very
differently.
My ex and I grieved extremelydifferently.
(09:12):
I mean, we're very differentpersonalities anyway, but we
just went opposite directions interms of our grief and and that
was tough.
That was tough to navigate.
And, you know, he kind of movedon to other pastures.
Mandy (09:25):
So, yeah, what kind of advice do you give couples who
are in that
Barbara (09:30):
scenario?
First of all, not to expect eachother to grieve the same and to
give each other space and tounderstand you're going to
grieve differently.
And it's, it's very, it's tough.
I mean, especially a loss thattraumatic because you don't
expect your children to diebefore you.
It's just not the natural orderof things.
And so it's.
(09:50):
I would just say you really tobe just some understanding and
some patience and not expectthem to just interpret or know
what you're, what you're feelingor going through, because each
of your relationships with yourchild or anybody for that matter
is individual.
I mean, even pets, right?
I mean, I've had a motherthat's, that has lost her, her
(10:11):
dog, but her dog was really likeher child.
You know, so that's, it's just,it's unique to each person and
each person grieves in their ownunique way and in their own
timeframe.
There are no rules around thisstuff.
There's no, there's nodeadlines.
It is what it is.
You do it, it makes, it helps ifyou work at it, you know, if you
(10:31):
don't isolate and you actuallygo and do things.
to try to help yourself.
You know, I can go into a bunchof suggestions if you want me
to, but
Mandy (10:40):
for you after the loss of your son and getting to that
really low point in your life,where you considered ending your
own life after that point, whathelped you move through your
grief?
And you know, I know youmentioned that you started a
foundation, but like, whathappened in the, in between,
between those two things and howdid you get to the place where
you felt like you were ready tostart something for other
(11:02):
people?
Barbara (11:03):
I think luckily, I had an instinct that helping others
would help me heal.
And so, you know, after the, theinitial phase of literally,
hardly being able to get out ofbed, and just, I mean, just to
get up and make coffee or anysort of a meal was a real
effort.
But I did go back to work aftera couple of weeks, which was too
(11:24):
early, but it did force me out,you know, into the world, and I
did have supportive family andfriends, which helped a lot
because isolation is, is tough.
It's really tough on you.
But I ended up doing so, so Iwent out and actually searched
for looked up other briefparents.
And then we talked aboutstarting this group and and I
got some help with a couple ofpeople and I, we considered
(11:46):
doing it on our own.
But then someone told me aboutthe compassionate friends that
focuses on that.
And so I talked to the regionaldirector and he came out and met
with me and we decided to dothat because they would have a
lot more resource.
So that took, you know, took awhile to focus and get all that
going.
And then we, we, we actually hadour first meeting.
Within a week of the first yearof my son's death.
(12:10):
So that was kind of the targetand yeah, that's unusual.
It goes that fast, but I'm adoer.
So to me, it helps me to jump inand do something about it, you
know and then I was working forIBM and a really high pressure
job.
We didn't talk about things likespirituality.
I didn't even know what the wordmeant.
but that was such a shock to methat not only did I.
Tell I was in a really highpressure job, but I requested to
(12:32):
move.
And my boss was resistant at thetime, but I said to them, look,
the worst thing that couldhappen to me has, so you
therefore have no power over meanymore.
I don't care about yourdeadlines and your quotas, let
me out of this job or I'll justleave the company.
And which was crazy, you know,financially at the time, but I
would've done it.
But anyway, we did.
And then I had one of the bestjobs I ever had in a very
(12:53):
understanding boss, but., Istarted on this exploration and
the butterfly's journey reallyto me means I was on a journey
to figure out whether or not myson's spirit continued.
And so I got into all kinds ofexploration and reading about
spirituality and a lot of theafterlife stuff and things like
that.
And that helped me, that helpedme a lot.
(13:14):
And I finally proved to myselfthat absolutely did his spirit
continue and all of our spiritscontinue.
And I've gotten some signs thatwere pretty irrefutable.
So that all helped.
I, you know, I did things like Itried energy healing.
I had no idea what energyhealing was, but I've got a
friend who's a shaman whoexplained it to me.
And I tried it and it helped alot.
(13:34):
And so then I tried every formof energy healing you could
think of.
You know, I did, I did shamanicmassage and reflexology and
acupuncture and polarity andReiki and, you know, whatever.
You know, I think it's reallyimportant to keep an open mind
and keep trying things becauseyou never know what's going to
help.
And that stuff helped.
Journaling helped tremendously.
(13:54):
Walking in nature helped.
You know, just being verydeliberate about trying to do
that.
And what I tell people is one ofthe biggest turning points for
me was when I finally got to thepoint where I could think of my
son's loss as a gift.
I'm sorry, but his life as agift, not just a loss.
(14:14):
Because if I, when I thoughtabout it and said, okay, if I
had two choices, I either neverget, never have known him, or
get to do it all over again,what would I do?
And I would absolutely do it allover again, as hard as it was.
Because, you know, the 21 yearsI had with him was such a gift,
you know, now when I think ofhim, I don't think of the loss,
(14:36):
I think of all the, you know,mother son trips we did and he
talked me into a bungee jumponce, we did front seats of
roller coasters all day one day,you know, it was an adrenaline
jockey.
So it
Mandy (14:47):
was nice.
Oh, wow.
Yeah.
What else can you tell me abouthim?
I love to hear about people andlike their personalities, but
bungee jumping is terrifying.
So that tells me a little bitabout him.
Barbara (14:59):
Yeah, he was, he was really he was very bright and he
was mature for his age and veryindependent.
And so his name was Brent, BrentRobert DeLibro.
And he, Oh, God, he was askingso many questions, but you can
talk and was kind of achallenge.
He just make up stories like,like, we'd be in a movie and he
was trying to talk to these kidsout of some candy because I
(15:19):
wouldn't buy him candy.
I was in 1 of those.
No sugar phases.
He, he, they just said, well, ifyou can tell me, he told him he
had already seen the movie.
He knew the story.
story.
And they said, well, if you cando that, you know, I'll, I'll
give you some of my candy.
And he just made it up, youknow, made it up on the fly.
And then he, he pushed me to puthim on a plane by himself at age
11 to go visit.
(15:40):
I had sent him to visit mycousin in Florida, one of my
cousins in Florida, cause he wasdying to go do something on his
own.
And then he went off, he camehome from, I think his first
year in high school, you know,flunk in science, and he was way
too bright for that.
And we were on his case, and hesaid, I want to be a pilot, I
want to go to military highschool.
And so we went looking forplaces, and he found the oldest,
(16:02):
starkest one he could find.
He moved out at 15, and went toNew York Military Academy, in
Cornwall and Hudson, New York.
And I remember the first week.
He called because they wouldn'tlet him call for a week.
Right.
And he called and he saidsomething.
I had done 300 pushups because Iknew he was testing the
boundaries with them.
And every time he tested aboundary, they made him do a
whole bunch of pushups and heloved it.
(16:24):
He just he ended up being thirdcaptain chief of staff got a
full scholarship out to ArizonaState University.
He could have gotten into WestPoint, but by then he was
already near West Point for 3years and he was.
Board with that, he went out toArizona, loved it out there, met
a woman he was getting engagedto, and she's a sweetheart,
Laura, and and then he did, hegot through ASU, and he had
(16:45):
already passed his writtenaviation test, and he was just
about to go to boot camp afterhis junior year in college.
And and he would have committedeight years to the army to get,
be trained as a Comancheira.
He wanted to be a ComancheiraApache jet powered helicopter
pilot.
So he was driven.
He was, you know, he was really
Mandy (17:01):
self motivated.
And very independent.
Barbara (17:03):
Yeah, very, very independent.
Yeah.
I mean, he'd walk in, he couldwalk in, he's the kind of kid
that at 16, he'd walk in, ourhouse with adult friends, you
know, and offer them a drink.
Or, you know, he'd be ascomfortable around a CEO as he
was around one of his buddies.
He's just an unusual.
I think maybe I think a lot ofthe kids are like that when they
die young.
It's almost like theirsubconscious knows it's going to
(17:24):
happen and they mature and theyfit a lot into their life.
And he did that.
And we were both pretty strongwilled.
So it was pretty funny, but hewas great.
No, I
Mandy (17:35):
believe that too.
I believe I believe that there,there is something
subconsciously that people whodie young sometimes do fit a
little bit more into their lives
Barbara (17:45):
than.
Yeah.
And it had a big impact ofcourse on his brother that was
really tough on him and it lefthim to be an only child because
he lost his older and hisyounger brother, but he gained a
lot of confidence that he wentto Johnson and Wales.
Which is one of the top cookingschools in the country.
And then after he graduated hegot an opportunity to buy a
small restaurant.
And he did.
(18:05):
And then he really flourishedwith his own confidence and
stuff.
And because, you know, he wasmore of a creative, hands on
sort of a kid.
And and so now he owns his own,a bigger restaurant, a seafood
restaurant.
Yeah.
So it's, anyway, it's great.
Was
Mandy (18:17):
he living at home with you when this happened or was he
already on his own?
Barbara (18:22):
No, he was 19.
He had just graduated highschool.
So this happened.
This literally happened.
All right.
So the week that Brent died,this is crazy.
All right.
So we got the call on Fridaymorning that he had had an
accident.
I was on a business trip for IBMin New Jersey.
My ex husband got the call.
They couldn't reach me because Iwas in a brick building that my
(18:42):
cell phone wasn't working.
And so it took them four hoursto track me down.
Because I had been with a friendthe night before my boss knew
where I was kind of thingvisiting a customer.
So my son, Brad had just comehome from his overnight senior
prom, and happened to stop inbecause they had breakfast
across the street, and saw hisfather packing.
(19:04):
So they got on a plane, and whenI, when they finally got through
to me the plane was, they werejust about to close the door on
their flight to Arizona.
And so I ran out and ran toNewark airport, had all kinds of
problems getting through what Ineeded to do to get to basically
a friend routed them through.
Newark, and I met them at NewarkAirport, and we flew to Arizona
(19:27):
together, and we didn't know itbut while we were in the air
they pronounced Brent braindead, again, he had promised us
he wouldn't get on a motorcyclewithout a helmet there's no
helmet law out there but somekid, you know, came and they
switched vehicles and.
You know, they think you'reinvincible at 21 and his brain
swelled and choked out hisbrainstem.
So we flew out there and thatwas Friday.
(19:47):
We took him off life support onSaturday.
We went through his, his, he wassharing a house with two other
guys.
We went through his house andhis girlfriend's house with all
this stuff on Sunday, on Monday.
They had a a service and afuneral at the chapel on campus
on Tuesday.
We flew home from Arizona onWednesday.
(20:08):
His body was embalmed and flewhome on Thursday.
Brad graduated high school.
Oh, no.
And Friday and Saturday wasBrent's wake wake and funeral.
So that whole week it was, itwas lunacy.
It was lunacy.
Yeah.
And for Brad.
Yeah.
Right.
But we had, and we had a lot ofreally good theater friends and
(20:29):
we had about 18 of us allcheering for him at the, at his
graduation, and had a littleparty back at the house
afterwards, but everybody knewthe situation but we Made the
best of it, but it was tough.
It was absolutely.
And then he actually went, hewent off to college a couple of
months later and he did flunkout of his first year in
college, but he got back in andfinished, but because of grief.
(20:51):
And then he brought, we had hisbrother's car shipped home and
he was driving that and his cargot stolen and totally stripped
at college, on the collegecampus, even though it was
locked, there was nothing.
It took the engine, it tookeverything.
It was nothing except a frameleft.
And so that was like a violationof his brother's.
Car as well.
So he had a really tough yearthat year.
(21:11):
Wow.
But he's, he's been amazing nowfour and a six year old and
they're awesome.
Mandy (21:17):
Yeah, I imagine for you as a mom to you know you're in
such deep grief, you've lostyour child and, but then you
still have your other childthere at home with you and like
trying to navigate his grief andAnd parents,
Barbara (21:32):
a lot of kids do, you know, and his friends were, you
know, good and around for amonth or two, like our friends
are, and then everybody goes onwith their lives, you know?
And it was, it was tough forthem.
He had, he had a hard time and Iworried about him, and, you
know, tried to make him go tocounseling.
I think he went twice.
I was the only one was intherapy, but, you know, just
(21:55):
part of what, what happens butanyway, yeah, we did talk about
it a lot and we still, we stilldo occasionally, you know, and
that's, that's, that's all been.
helpful.
And then I got married a secondtime to Jim and he was awesome.
He was a great stepdad to, toBrad and did so many things to
help him with his restaurant andeverything.
And he had three adult kids.
So I have three adult stepkidsgirls, the oldest and she's not
(22:18):
married, but the two boys are,and they each one's got a little
girl and the other one's got twoboys.
So I've got five grandchildrenfrom age one to six.
So, so that's really that's theloves of my life, but I'm very
close to somebody, but we weremarried.
Almost 12 years.
And then he died on his way towork.
We don't make a heart attack.
Just bam.
We had tickets for a show thatnight and we were, it was a
(22:39):
really good, that was a reallygood marriage.
And it just you just never know,right.
You just on his way to work andit's gone.
Yeah.
So,
Mandy (22:49):
so both of you're like, yeah.
So these like huge losses inyour life have been sudden and
unexpected.
Barbara (22:56):
Yeah.
Yeah, they were.
And actually both my parentswere somewhat, somewhat sudden
to come to think of it.
Yeah.
I mean, this is right.
This is good and bad both ways,right?
Because you don't really wantsomebody going through a lot of
suffering either.
And people around them, it'shard on them as well.
And it's not some people say,well, at least you had time to,
you know, to get used to it.
(23:17):
I don't think you do.
I don't think it's real until ithappens.
You know so it affects everybodywhen it happens, regardless of
whether it's long or short,nobody escapes it.
Right.
Right.
Everybody in the world has somesort of grief.
Mandy (23:31):
no one escapes it.
And I think what you said is youjust never know.
I mean, that's like how I livemy life now, because you just
don't, you and for me, like mostof my loss has been sudden also.
And so very conscious of time isfinite and we don't know how
much we have and you know what'sgonna happen.
Right.
Yeah.
Trying to like live the lifethat you wanna live
Barbara (23:53):
now, right?
Yep.
Absolutely.
And I'll keep putting thingsoff.
Oh, there's a great song aboutthat.
Until you can't, I think it'seither Luke Combs or somebody's
a country song, but it's untilyou can.
It's fairly recent.
It's this year and it's like,oh, it's a really wonderful song
because it basically is goesthrough all these things.
You know, you can, you can dothat.
(24:14):
Like putting things off untilyou can't.
You know, it makes you reallythink about, yeah, about not,
not putting things off.
So yeah, no, I treat life verydifferently than I used to.
And what's important.
Mandy (24:27):
And I know you said that you did a lot of spiritual.
Work and looking into different,different things and seeing what
resonated with you.
And you mentioned havingdifferent signs over the years.
Is there anything you can sharewith listeners that you, any
experience you've had that youwould want to share?
Barbara (24:45):
Yeah, and I do think people should do what's
comfortable for them, right?
That might be religion, it mightnot be.
For me it really wasn't.
I grew up Catholic and I believein God and all that, but I just
had pulled away from it.
And I tried to get back into itafterwards, but it just didn't
work for me.
But the kind of the directconnection between me and God
and the spirituality did.
And again, I learned, I did alot of reading and research
(25:07):
about kind of what happens inspirits continuing.
But with my son.
There's several things I couldmention, but probably one of the
most convincing is later on Ihad a, a friend who is a
musician, and she was over herewhen I think we were just
working out because she hadactually played at a New Year's
Eve party I had, and she's asongwriter as well, but we were,
(25:29):
we were just working out likearound my, my living room,
dining room area.
And she asked me about music forthe book before I had released
it.
The first, my first book, thememoir.
I said, gee, no, I didn't thinkof that, but that's kind of an
interesting concept.
And then she got this feelingand said, I've got to go get my
keyboard out of my car.
And I watched her channel music.
(25:49):
I mean, she did something thatshe couldn't have made up on the
fly because it had too manylayers to it.
And, and I had a very strongemotional reaction to it.
And I didn't know why.
And I asked her what, what isthat?
Where's that coming from?
And she looked around the room.
She didn't have a med print.
She picked out his picture andsaid, that's where it's coming
from.
And so later on, I had her.
Actually record the video.
(26:09):
It's on my website, which is abutterfliesjourney.
org and it's possessive, notplural.
So it's YS, not IES.
And and so it's, it's a, it's afree gift, that one.
And and then she did another onelater on when I met her for
dinner on the 10th anniversaryof his death.
And there was another one thathe had pulled her out of a
garden and, and channeled and wehad them both recorded.
(26:30):
But the even more interestingthing was.
She then he figured out that hecould talk to her and she
understood him.
She just had that talent.
She wasn't a medium.
She didn't.
off of those services.
But once he did, he'd startgiving her messages for me.
So there was one time when Iwent to a wedding in New Jersey
and I was, I was renting myhouse.
I live on the ocean up north andI was renting it for the summer
(26:53):
and I moved into the otherhouse, but because we were away
for the weekend, it was Mondaymorning.
I decided to unpack.
I decided to take a walk first.
And so I'm on my walk, and onthe way back, I get this text
from Nancy, and she said, Brentsays, be careful going up your
front steps, mom.
She had never been to thishouse.
And I said, okay, and I cameback, and by now I'm used to
getting messages from them.
(27:14):
And the entire length of thestep was cracked.
If I had put my weight on it, Iwould have fallen and gotten
hurt.
So that again, that's a prettyintangible.
She had never been there.
It was out of the blue.
She just texted me out of theblue.
And so I've got a couple of themlike that.
I could go on for a while.
Mandy (27:30):
I love to hear things like that.
I don't know.
I know there are people who areskeptical and I think until
Barbara (27:38):
the way right right but there's no way that she knew
anything she'd never been tothat house she had no idea she
didn't even know I was outwalking and was about to go back
to the steps, you know,
Mandy (27:47):
yeah, I love that.
I know I've shared this beforeso if people have listened to
all my episodes they've probablyheard this story.
So I apologize to anyone who'salready heard this but I just
want to tell you because youjust shared that with me.
so much.
I, on one, I think it was maybethe 10th anniversary of my mom
dying and my brother, who's nextyoungest to me, him and I
(28:10):
decided we were going to havelike a FaceTime call and have a
toast to our mom because it wasthe anniversary and he was on
vacation with his wife and hiskids and he like put them to bed
and him and his wife and me andmy husband, we all got on this
call and we like set a toast tomy mom.
And at this point, we, myyounger brother had died also
like a couple of years prior tothat.
(28:31):
And so we like set our thingsand then I was like, okay, enjoy
your night.
You're on vacation.
And like five minutes later, hetexts me and was like, Mandy, I
just pulled out a deck of cards.
I had thrown it in my suitcasewhen we've packed from home
because I figured my wife and Ican like play cards after the
kids go to bed.
And so they, they dumped out thecards after we talked on the
(28:52):
phone and in the deck of cardswas our youngest brothers.
High school ID from the year ourmom died.
It was like, wow.
Yeah.
It was just so cool.
So, you know, that was like my,and they, and they
Barbara (29:06):
knew they had not put it in the deck of cards earlier
to store it or anything.
He was
Mandy (29:10):
like, I have no idea.
Like, is it, have I never openedthis deck of cards in the last
few years?
Maybe, but it was so weird thatit was on that day and it was
from that year and like, Ohyeah, that's really cool.
Yeah.
I love to hear about stuff likethat.
Barbara (29:25):
Yeah, no, I'm sorry for the loss of your brother and
your Yeah, I
Mandy (29:28):
mean, that's why we're all here doing this work, right?
You know, you're out doing yourwork, and we're all just, I
think everybody, not everybody,but like one of the ways I think
that some people get through itis to put things back in the
world to help other people intheir own experience, and
Barbara (29:44):
I really think, I mean, again, when I wrote my memoir,
it was ten years after my olderson died, and the last chapter
is about the three mostimportant things I learned.
And one of them was aboutkeeping an open mind and
trusting your gut for what worksfor you and not really listening
to everybody's advice becausethey don't really know, you know
but to keep an open mind and trythings you haven't tried.
(30:06):
And then the second thing washelping others helps you heal,
because that's, there'ssomething about it and it
doesn't have to do with how theydied, right, it doesn't have to
be related it's just, there'ssomething about helping others,
whether it's, People, kids,pets, whatever it is that really
is very healing.
And the appreciation that youget is healing as well.
(30:28):
And then the third thing was,it's all about the love and
that's about focusing on thosegood memories and understanding
that their life was a gift toyou, not just a loss.
So anyway, that's my little,
Mandy (30:39):
I love it.
Yeah.
I love all the advice that wecan give.
And yeah, your story and yourjourney through all of this is
incredible.
Barbara (30:47):
It's changed me, but it's also, I mean, I've met, met
so many, so many people thathave become such close friends
that have gone through thistragic kind of loss because they
get it.
They don't take life for grantedanymore, you know, and they,
they just.
They don't whine.
They don't waste time.
Like I don't waste time onnegativity.
I just, if somebody is in one ofthose conversations, I'll just
(31:09):
walk away.
You know, it's like, sorry,you're clueless.
I just don't, I don't have anypatience for negativity and when
wasting time on silly.
Silly things and, and peoplewhining and things.
It's like, yeah, get over it.
And there's,
Mandy (31:22):
there's such a power, in shared experience, you know
connecting with other peoplewho've been through not, you
know, it doesn't have to be thesame type of loss even, but
people who just get it andunderstand where you're coming
from.
Barbara (31:35):
Right.
No, absolutely.
And it does, it changes you.
It makes you, it makes yourealize what's important and
what's not.
Absolutely.
And that's quite a gift.
It's a difficult way to receivethat gift, but it's quite a
gift.
I agree.
Mandy (31:50):
So where could people go to find your memoir to learn
more about your foundation?
What's your website or socialmedia
Barbara (31:58):
handles?
Yeah, the, the the website isabutterfliesjourney.
org and that's possessive, notplural.
And it's the same thing onFacebook and on Instagram.
And the and there's also facesof resilience, which is about
the photos and there's a photogallery on the.
A butterfly's journey websiteAmazon has the first book, which
(32:19):
is the memoir, a butterfly'sjourney, healing grief after the
loss of a child.
The second book was faces ofresilience.
And I'm part of eight otherbooks, but it's really not worth
going through all those.
But the Faith Finding Answers inthe Heart Volume 2 is one of
them that comes to mind rightaway.
But yeah, I probably do moreactivity on Facebook than the
(32:41):
other social media, because thatseems to be where most of the
people that are, that areinterested are.
And anyway, so, but besides thatwebsite, you could email me at
barbara or info at A Butterfly'sJourney.
The phone number is 617 4106309.
And you know, I do free calls todiscuss the brief recovery
(33:01):
method classes.
I'm happy to spend a half anhour doing that you know,
talking to somebody to seewhether it's useful for them.
And I've done some group classesand I can arrange that, but I,
but I usually do one on one.
I find it to be the mosteffective.
And then the only other thingI'd say is if somebody wanted to
do A photo shoot kind of a thinglike a phases of resilience
photo shoot at an event.
(33:23):
I'm happy to do that too.
You know, it's basically justcovering expenses.
And that's always well received.
It's kind of hard to understandit until you see it in action,
but it's very well received.
Mandy (33:33):
It sounds like it.
I'm part of a couple differentevents and things like I'm part
of a local recovery organizationthat focuses on fitness for
recovery from addiction and theydo like an annual event and part
of it is remembering people whohave been lost to addiction.
So yeah, I can imagine somethinglike that would be such a Is
(33:54):
that
Barbara (33:55):
how you lost your brother?
Yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.
But, you know, again, an organfriend of mine who is used to be
the chairman of the board forcompassionate friends now
started the organization calledSaturday and it's s a d o d.
org.
And another I heard
Mandy (34:10):
you mention that I actually am not familiar with
Barbara (34:12):
that one.
Yeah, that's great.
No, it's very good.
That's in the space inMassachusetts, but they're
actually starting to reach outto other states and stuff now.
And I know open to hope.
com has got an amazing probablythe biggest resource center, I
have a resource center on myside too but that one is just
got all I mean thousands ofresources for grief, which is
which is lovely.
(34:33):
Yeah, I just met some reallyjust incredible.
People and and we're all justtrying to help people.
Mandy (34:39):
Yeah.
No, I love the project with thephotos and everything.
It sounds amazing.
And you know, like you'reoffering such great services.
So so appreciate your timecoming on to talk to everyone.
I will include links and likeyour usernames and everything in
the show notes so people canfind it
Barbara (34:57):
easily.
Just that I do a free half hourcall.
Because it's the only evidencebased methodology in the world.
It's been used 40 years on sixcontinents and it was written by
a bereaved dad.
So it's, it's, it's veryeffective and it's very
different from support ortherapy, but it's very
complimentary to those,
Mandy (35:14):
yeah.
Is there any, any last thingthat you want to leave in anyone
with them?
Some, anything we didn't cover
Barbara (35:20):
together.
I think usually when I try togive somebody maybe a little
advice at the end, it's, it'sreally try not to isolate, try
to reach out when you'refeeling, you know, down and, or
get out of the house and, go,find something you like to do or
somebody calling a friend or, ora family member or whatever, but
also really trust your gut,right?
(35:40):
Don't let other people'sopinions of what you should do
get, right?
Too deep into your head.
Just trust your gut and justkeep an open mind and keep
trying stuff because there is nomagic bullet here But there is
everything that you try willliterally help a little and what
I tell people is try threedifferent things and then Keep
using the one or two that workand drop one and try another You
(36:02):
know that kind of thing anddon't try something just once
try it once twice or three timesTo see whether or not you think
it helps right just just kind ofHaving some tenacity and some
patience and keeping an openmind, and the last thing is,
please trust that your lovedones are still with you in
spirit, whether you get signs ornot.
And, you know, depending onthere's all kinds of things that
(36:24):
affect that.
But just trust it.
They are absolutely still withyou.
When you think about it, the lawof physics said that nothing
ever goes away.
It just changes form, right?
Maybe from energy to, to matterand back, but it doesn't really
disappear.
That's the first thing that gotme really believing that that
could be possible.
Mandy (36:42):
I think your story is such a powerful reminder that
things as bad as they are in themoment will get better.
And, that your life is worthstaying and, there are people
who love you.
And so you know, pushing throughthe difficult moments and
reaching out for help so thatyou can get to the better
moments
Barbara (37:01):
that are ahead.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not fast and it's not easy,but it absolutely is worth it.
And I'm happy now and I havefive grandkids and.
You know, my son and three stepkids and their partners and, you
know, it's, it's wonderful.
And I'm looking forward to thenext phase and maybe even,
having a partner again, and, youknow, we'll just, whatever.
(37:24):
So yeah, it's okay.
It's, it's, it's good.
You can, people can, I know somepeople say you can't ever
recover.
Maybe, I mean, it's not like youever stopped missing them, but
absolutely can heal.
Yeah.
I believe that.
I hope you enjoyed and tooksomething away from listening to
Barbara story.
She talked several times abouthow helping others helped
herself and experience that Ican also relate to.
(37:47):
So for today's journal prompt,write about a time you helped
someone and what that experiencegave you in return.
Or write about how you wouldlike to help others, if you
could like always let thewriting lead you in whatever
direction it takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
(38:07):
Visit remember grams.
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
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