January 24, 2024 • 43 mins
Joined by Sheila Squillante, author of the newly released book "All Things Edible, Random, and Odd: Essays on Grief, Love, and Food" joins us to tell the story of losing her dad in her early twenties.
Sheila is open to visiting book clubs or doing readings/book events- reach out to her if you are interested! Find her on IG @sheilasquill, Tiktok @sheilasquillante, or visit her website- www.sheilasquillante.com
To buy her book- https://www.clashbooks.com/new-products-2/sheila-squillante-all-things-edible-random-odd-preorder?fbclid=IwAR0RX1SuqQm1YpstOSl36_w6PE6r9hw6-agPSohnrzvmBtWKi0UKiAteTLE_aem_AQSB9l7UvMz7RwSL1-reqTI4aE7ZTgRcIaqlynXpA36h1pCgT1iqIE-HD54lI4W1_pI
To read an excerpt- https://lithub.com/meals-and-memories-sheila-squillante-on-writing-to-remember-her-father/?fbclid=IwAR3XEa3vV3D5FDDaa7dqkoemIhWeYUJsauMC3dibtnWufq9I78b2Epf0MkM_aem_AQSZyubJJwRjBu6E6veNM9svmT30jucDI3a7zAA0jdTb97Bmoyi5BWfepc3T2xWBfkA
To find Sheila on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/sheila.squillante?mibextid=LQQJ4d
Or on Bluesky:
https://bsky.app/profile/sheilasquill.bsky.social
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I'm your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from, rememberGraham's a small business
dedicated to helping you supportthose in your life.
Experiencing grief.
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every detail.
(00:22):
Listeners.
I've been looking forward tosharing this episode with you.
Uh, conversation with authorsheila Squillante.
Of the recently released book,all things edible, random and
odd.
Essays on grief, love and food.
Sheila's also professor anddirector of the MFA creative
writing program at Chathamuniversity in Pittsburgh.
(00:44):
Here.
She takes us back to herrelationship with her dad.
Complicated and the way thatmany of our parental
relationships are in our lateteens and early twenties.
And she shares openly about hisdeath and her grief that
followed.
For listeners of the show whoare also writers, you'll want to
listen to tell the ad and tohear about her path to
publishing.
And for those who don't consideryourself a writer, she is a
(01:06):
great example of someone whoprocessed her grief largely
through writing.
Something anyone can do, whetheryou strive to share it with the
world or with no one at all.
Before we dive in.
I just want to say, I wish Icould give everyone who hears
this episode, a copy of herbook.
It's not a book.
I'm seeing a book talk or a namethat everyone is going to
recognize, but it's one you'llwant to save her.
(01:28):
She focuses on life and deaththrough food.
Meals shared and the memoriesthat come with them.
New traditions made like how shespends the anniversary of the
death with her self-made ritualcalled dead dad day.
It's beautiful and layered muchlike the story you're about to
hear.
Let's take a listen.
Sheila (01:46):
So I'm happy to share the story.
I'm happy.
Seems like a strange thing tosay when I'm about to share a
story about loss, but the storyof losing my father, whose name
was Richard's will auntie whenhe was 46 and I was 21.
And I'll get to that part in aminute, but to give you a little
background about.
My life and who he was myparents were my father in
(02:09):
particular was a an executivefor IBM.
He was a very kind ofconservative self made guy.
He was really smart and funnyand dry.
He had a dry wit.
Sarcasm was kind of like thelanguage we all spoke in the
house, but he was also reallywithholding in terms of like his
(02:31):
emotional expression.
And I.
Wanted desperately my whole lifeto reach him, to like him, want
to, you know, feel that he likedme and understood me.
He, so I have a sister that Igrew up with.
She's a little younger than Iam.
And she struggled we bothstruggled with our relationship
(02:52):
with him in different ways.
But theirs was more contentious.
Always.
And I was just the firstdaughter and always very, you
know, compliant and mostlyobedient.
And again, you're like a goodstudent and all of these things
that I knew he appreciated.
He wasn't, I don't think he wassuper happy to be married to our
mother.
It was a, you know, one of thosesituations where They kind of
(03:15):
got pushed together for maybethe wrong reasons and it was a
pretty big mismatch, I think,from the start.
So I say all of this by way oflike kind of showing you that he
wasn't very present in ourlives.
He was, he really threw most ofhis energy into work and he was
very good at work.
You know, he was an executivefor IBM.
He traveled all over the world.
(03:36):
He was intimidating, which isinteresting because he was.
Tiny.
He was like this very slightman, you know, he's like 5'9 or
something and narrow shouldered,but he had this incredible,
incredible presence that wasreally, truly intimidating.
And because he didn't say a lotof, like, he didn't say He
wouldn't do chit chat.
(03:56):
He hated chit chat.
Anytime he spoke, it had to besomething really big, something
really important.
And so we were always kind oftiptoeing around that in our
house which was a really hardway to to live.
And as I got older, it becameclear to me that my parents were
not in a happy marriage.
My parents both drank a lot.
(04:19):
Probably my father was analcoholic, but it wasn't, that's
not how it was framed when I wasgrowing up.
It was more like alcohol is likethe, the thing you do as a
business person, like in socialsituations, you know?
But my mother, Definitely was analcoholic.
And as I got closer and closerto kind of college age, her
(04:39):
alcoholism got worse, theirmarriage got worse, the climate
in the house got worse.
And all of that was punctuatedby the fact that I had this
boyfriend.
That my father did not approveof and really in retrospect, my
father was right about myboyfriend, but you know, I don't
know if you've had thisexperience, but when you're like
17 and you're, you know, there'sthat like, yeah.
(05:02):
So it was a, it was a very tensekind of time and I ended up
going to college where myboyfriend was.
My father, you know, continuedto disapprove of him, and there
were conflicts, verbalconflicts.
There was once a physicalconflict between them, which was
upsetting.
(05:23):
And I felt very pulled betweenthe two of them.
And in my junior year ofcollege.
So I was, my parents weredivorced by this time and my
father was living in WestchesterCounty, New York, which is where
also where I was going tocollege.
So we were we got to see eachother kind of a lot.
We would have lunch togetherweekly.
(05:44):
And it was actually a wonderfulpart of our relationship that I,
that I treasure thinking aboutwith those like weekly lunch
dates, meeting up with him andkind of starting to get to know
him as an adult.
That year was also the year thatmy obedience and compliance
started to kind of fray.
I was becoming more politicallyNot I won't say like activist, I
(06:06):
was not an activist, but I wasmore politically aware.
My parents were veryconservative, they were probably
registered Republicans and I wasgoing in a different direction.
And so this, this sort of strainon our relationship had to do
somewhat with that and then alsothis boyfriend who's floating
around.
And in the year leading up tohis death, and I, it's an
(06:27):
important year because it's theonly time in our relationship
where we were absolutelyestranged from each other, and
there were a number of thingsthat happened in the fall,
including him kind of schedulingme an interview to be a waitress
at a, at a bar that he likedwithout telling me and like sort
of calling me up and being like,you have an interview on
(06:47):
Wednesday at, at nine.
I'm like, I have a job already.
I'm like, you know, so it wasthat, that kind of boundary
crossing.
Mandy (06:56):
And I, I mean, at that, at that age, it's so important
for children to, as they'retransitioning into adulthood, to
find that independence and to,to create who they are on their
own, separate from theirparents.
And so I think it's a verycommon sense of strain and in
relationships with parents thatsometimes parents can't let go
(07:16):
yet, or they want more controlthan they have.
Sheila (07:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's exactly, that'sabsolutely what it is.
And now, like, with all thishindsight and time, I can say,
Oh, that was, that was like theway it was supposed to go.
Right.
It was natural.
But at the time it feltterrible.
It felt, you know, it felt likelike it felt like a loss, like I
was losing this connection tohim.
And.
By the time the new year camearound, I was so angry with him
(07:43):
for a variety of things.
That was one of them, but justsort of generally, I was angry
with him and I was tired ofbeing like in my head.
I was like, I'm the only one whoever like extends myself in this
relationship.
I mean, it's ridiculous.
You don't have a relationshipwith your 19 really, right?
But I thought I deserved that.
(08:03):
Yeah.
And so in the new year, rightaround January 1st, I sent him
this letter.
This letter that was like, itoutlined all the reasons I was
angry with him.
And it used the F word a bunchof times.
And I'll tell you why that'srelevant in a minute, but I was
really angry and I was in mymind, I was like, I want, I want
to express myself and I wantrespect back.
(08:25):
And I want you to, I want tohear that you love me.
I need to, I need this from you.
I expect it.
I deserve it.
And I sent it and I heardnothing, I heard nothing,
nothing happened you know,January leaves, February goes,
you know, maybe it's March and Idon't know, I'm still sitting
around wondering like, is hegoing to respond to me?
(08:46):
What's going to happen?
At one point, I think it wasspring break.
I was home at my mother's house.
And He called and I answered thephone.
And when he realized it was me,he hung up.
Oh no.
Yeah, it was very, he was verystubborn, you know, and very
like dug in on this.
And then June came and that'sFather's Day.
(09:08):
Right.
And I was like, Okay, it'sFather's Day.
Sheila, you can't ignore this.
You need to send him something.
And I sent him something and Istill didn't hear anything from
him.
God, he was stubborn.
So it was, it was a painfulyear.
It was a really like, like trialby fire for my emotional and my,
my sense of identity and allthat.
And by the time late July rolledaround I was just like, am I
(09:35):
ever going to talk with himagain?
I don't, I don't know what'sgoing to happen here, you know?
And one morning, I don't knowwhat the date was, but again,
like late July is the timeline.
I got a phone call from mysister early in the morning and
she said, dad's sick.
You need to come.
We're at the hospital.
So he'd been not well, like, youknow, he didn't take care of
(09:56):
himself physically.
He was diabetic.
Like he had been diagnosed likeat 40 or something with one.
I don't know.
He was, he was like an insulindependent diabetic that like he
was hiding butter cookies underhis bed eating, you know, He was
a heavy smoker he ate and drankand did whatever the heck he
wanted and had had a heartattack also the previous year.
(10:18):
So he was not well.
So immediately when I heard thathe was sick, I thought it had
something to do with either ofthose two things.
And so I threw my clothes on anddrove to the hospital.
He was in Danbury Hospital,which is a Western Connecticut
hospital.
And I drove there and, I was onthe phone with my sister trying
to get information and it seemedlike He had had a stroke.
(10:42):
That's what they had originallythought because he had lost.
He like, what is the when youcan't speak?
Yeah.
So when I got to the ICU or theemergency room, I guess, and he
was there, I went in to see him.
And again, this is the firsttime I see I've seen him in
almost a full year.
And.
I, I'm like trying to talk withhim and he's so angry.
(11:06):
He's like red faced and justtrying to speak and he's yelling
at me and I can't understand himbecause it's that speech you
know, impediment.
And I finally realized that whathe's yelling at me about is the
letter.
The letter that I sent him that,you know, and I'm saying to him,
dad, I love, I love you.
And he was like, you know, itdidn't sound like that in this
(11:27):
letter and so angry about theletter.
And I thought, this is crazy.
You are in a hospital bed,you're hooked up to these wires.
What's happening?
And you're yelling at me about aletter.
Mandy (11:36):
Anyway, well, it just shows how much, how much that
stuck with him and how much itmeant to him.
Like it did have an impact.
It's not like he got it andthrew it in the garbage.
You know,
Sheila (11:46):
later I'll jump ahead just a second to tell you, like
later after he passed away, mymother and I went to his office
to clean out.
You know, his stuff and shefound his briefcase, which
included all sorts of like, youknow, important documents,
including the letter, which hehad circled with a red pen, all
of the F words.
(12:08):
I don't know.
I, you know, I have kids nowmyself.
And so I think about what, whatthat must've felt like for him.
Anyway, the letter.
And I remember saying to him inthe, the emergency room, like,
dad, like, chill.
We'll talk about it later.
I love you.
We have, we'll have all thistime to talk about it.
And of course, that's the,that's the irony is that we did
not have all this time to talkabout it.
(12:29):
And he was moved into He wasmoved into ICU, I think, right
from the ER.
Again, they were still thinkingstroke, but then as the, you
know, as the early days keptgoing, they started to decide,
they decided it wasn't, hadn'tbeen a stroke at all.
And he was, he had some swellingin his brain and they thought
that that was what.
Was causing this aphasia.
(12:49):
Is that what the term is?
I think.
Yeah.
And so we were waiting forantibiotics that they were
pumping him through antibioticsto clear this infection or
whatever it was, and nothing wastouching it.
And he was getting he wasn'tgetting any better.
And he wasn't getting any worseexactly, but he was definitely
in this place of incapacity.
(13:11):
And so in those, again, in likethe early, like the first three
or four days, you know, all ofthe relatives come swarming in
and I say all the relatives, Imean, my mom's family, she She
had eight brothers and twosisters.
Oh, wow.
And her mother and my mom, andthey're divorced, remember?
So, but they'd only beendivorced for a short while and
(13:31):
they'd been married for 20years.
And so here come all of myuncles.
And here come my grandparents,my father's parents were still
living from Florida, and itbecame this like total circus in
the ICU waiting room which wasvery difficult to kind of you
know, to try to like find myselfin that space and to try to feel
(13:54):
some kind of connection to whatwas happening and to like the
larger context of what had beenhappening between us.
And in those first couple ofdays, there was not part of me
that was thinking, Oh, he'sgoing to die.
Like, that hadn't gotten thereyet.
But it didn't take too muchlonger to get there so a couple,
maybe five days or so, six daysinto it it seemed like they were
(14:15):
going to move him to a, like arehab floor and kind of start to
get back, you know, and that wasencouraging.
And.
The other thing that was theother stressor that was
happening was that he had agirlfriend that we hadn't known
about.
And she was at the hospital.
And so my mother was at thehospital, my girl, it was like
this thing out of a soap opera.
You know,
Mandy (14:35):
it was a soap
Sheila (14:36):
opera.
It was dramatic.
I'm laughing about it, but atthe time it was really kind of
horrifying.
And I felt, I remember feelingreally angry that there was all
this drama around it when I justwanted to kind of focus on my
father and.
It seemed really serious to me,whether I thought it was going
to be fatal or not, it wasserious.
It was, it was this big lifechange for him.
(14:57):
And anyway, at the same, sametime, remember my, my boyfriend,
who he hates is kind of floatingaround in the background, not
coming into this room, butdriving me to the hospital, all
this.
So the day that I was, I wasleaving the hospital and I went
over to him and I said, dad, I'mgoing to go.
And I'll see you tomorrow.
I love you.
And he grabbed my hand, whichwas completely uncharacteristic
(15:20):
of him.
And he was crying, which wasalso completely
uncharacteristic.
And he said, I love you, whichwas a third totally out of like,
my father just didn't say thosethings.
If I said, dad, I love you, hewould say me too.
That was his stock answer.
And this time he said it back.
While he was crying and I wassort of undone, I thought, what
(15:42):
is happening?
So I went home and I got a callagain early the next morning
that he'd gone into a comaovernight.
It's almost like he knew, youknow, it feels like he knew a
lot like the briefcase Imentioned before he, all of his
like important documents were init.
Like as if he knew something wasgoing to happen and my mother
told us later that they had hada conversation they were having
(16:04):
a not a super contentiousdivorce sort of thing but not
super happy either you know, buthe had told her I feel like
something's gonna happen.
Wow.
I did.
So what happened in the next, hewas, he was in the hospital.
It was 10 days from the firstphone call from my sister that
he was sick to his, to hisdeath.
(16:24):
And what we learned in theinterim and those like, you
know, after he fell into a comawas that the infection that he
had was not, it was neverbacterial.
It was always viral.
And so they tried to, and thiswas 1992.
And so, you know, medicine,whatever it's.
Yeah, 30 years ago.
So it's different, right?
And so some resident was, wasthe one that was like, I wonder
(16:46):
if it's viral, but it was toolate.
You know, they were, they gavehim the antiviral stuff, but it
didn't work.
And he never woke up from that.
We had to make the decision todisconnect his life support you
know, at like day nine.
And it was surreal.
It was just surreal.
And again, like all of theseuncles of mine, and they're my
mom's brothers.
(17:07):
They're like these raucous Irishfunny guys like coming in and
trying to make you feel better,which was, that's of course what
you would do right but at thetime it felt like I'm, I'm
actually in the circus.
And so we made the decision to,to disconnect, and I remember
that.
This was, it was like theafternoon of the day before and
(17:28):
we knew it was going to happenthe next morning.
And so I went into his room withhim.
Just, it was just me and him,the night before, and I talked
with him.
I don't, you know, I have noidea if he could hear me.
The doctors were like, we don'tknow.
But I said, you know, the thingsthat you say as a daughter when
your father's about to die.
I told him how much I loved him,and I did.
(17:49):
And then I decided the nextmorning that I didn't want to
be.
in the room with him when thishappened, not because I was
afraid of, of the moment ofdeath or anything like that.
It had to do with, I knew it wasgoing to be another circus.
I knew that it would be stuffedwith people.
And I wanted, I wanted my griefto be more private than that.
(18:11):
But I also felt like, I neededto send a representative.
And so my boyfriend, whichagain, went for me.
And I was sitting out in the,you know, the, the lobby right
outside of like the doors to theICU.
I remember sitting there with acup of tea in my hands, like
(18:32):
scalding hot tea and the doorsopened and outcome all of the
people.
And it was in that room was mymother, my sister, my three
grandparents.
At least three cousins you know,uncles, aunts, the girlfriend
was probably there, I don'tremember, but it was like, not
me though, and my boyfriendanyway, when everybody came out
and they had told us, you know,I don't, we don't know, once we
(18:56):
turn off the machines, we don'tknow how long he'll have, and he
didn't have anything, and hedied immediately, but I don't
know.
You know, it was this moment oflike, okay, this is the next
part of my life about to start.
And this was right before mysenior year of college started.
It was August, he died in Augustsixth.
And, you know, I started schoolon like August 28th or something
like that.
(19:17):
And I, and I thinking back now,I'm like, why did I go back to
school that semester?
Why didn't I take some time togrieve?
But I didn't, I went to school.
And all I could talk about wasthis.
All I could talk about.
I wanted to talk about everysingle detail of the death.
Yes.
All the 10 days.
And honestly, Amanda, this is,talking with you right now,
recounting it, is the first timeI've done this, in this kind of
(19:39):
detail, for a really long time.
But back then, I had this sensethat as long as I could keep all
of the minor, the minute detailsLike, with me and in me, then I
wouldn't lose him.
Mandy (19:53):
You know, it's so interesting that you say you
wanted to like go over thatwhole time over and over again.
I had a very similar experiencewith my mom's death where I
wanted to like, I could havetalked about that day every
single day and just like where Iwas standing, the words that
were said.
Right.
Right.
All of these details and peopledon't necessarily want to hear
(20:16):
that.
Sheila (20:17):
Right, right.
They don't.
They don't.
I remember telling, saying thisexact thing to this wonderful
professor who was my poetryprofessor.
He was like my mentor.
He was also, you know, he wasone of those professors that
kind of like just holds youthrough your time.
And he did that for me.
And I remember talking with himabout this and he said to me,
Sheila, people think death iscatching.
(20:38):
It's They think they're going tocatch it from you and that is
why they don't want they thinkyou're walking around like a
neon sign that says death, youknow, and that's why you have to
find the people who have beenthrough it.
And, you know, I was, I was 19.
I was 12.
I was 19.
I was 21 when he died.
My sister was 19.
I didn't know anybody who hadlost a parent at that point.
Mandy (20:59):
Right.
And your friends are 21 andwanting to get, get drunk and go
out to the bars
Sheila (21:03):
and Right, right.
Exactly.
And so, and and here I am thislike all I was already a poet,
like predisposed to writing sadpoems, you know?
And now all of a sudden I'mwriting really sad poems.
Yeah.
Really, really sad poems.
In fact, I was a senior and Iwas a creative writing major and
I was an honors student and thisprofessor I just mentioned was
(21:24):
my thesis director and he said,you need to write about this.
You need to, this needs to beyour thesis.
My thesis was going to be achapbook of poetry and I wrote a
chapbook of poetry about those10 days.
And like now as a professormyself, I would never, I don't
think I would ever recommend astudent.
Immerse themselves that deeplyinto their grief that that close
(21:46):
in terms of like time, but it isI think what I needed to do.
So that's what I did.
And I talked about it where Icould, but I wrote about it
mostly.
Mandy (21:56):
And it's almost like because you didn't have the
outlet to talk about it enoughto satiate that need that you
were able to just transfer thatenergy and write about it.
I
Sheila (22:06):
think so.
I think that's true.
And I think the other, the otherpart of it is that because we
had such a kind of adysfunctional family life my
sister and I.
Had a very different relation,different reactions to his
death.
She was actually living with himat the time that he died.
So and it was the only time,like, just like it had been the
year before he died was the onlytime he and I had been
estranged.
(22:27):
The year before he died was theonly time she and he had not
been in some kind of likebattle.
And I'm so glad she had thatactually, like thinking back.
That's, that's such a gift thatshe had that but I didn't feel
like I could talk with my motherabout it because it was so, it
was such a weird thing for herbecause she loved him so much
(22:47):
and he didn't love her back andthey spent all these years
together.
And then he had this girlfriendwho had like, it turned out that
he had been, you know, with thisgirlfriend when they were
married, like just all of thisugly, emotional.
junk that I was afraid to talkwith her about it.
Plus she was drinking a lot andher life was spiraling out this
other way.
And our relationship was alsosuddenly very, very stressed.
(23:11):
So, so yeah, I, I talked aboutit with the few people that I
could.
And of course my boyfriend hatedhim and he hated my, my, and I,
spoiler alert, I married theguy.
Oh, and then divorced later.
But My dad was not wrong.
Yeah, I started writing.
I mean, that's all I could do.
I think I've always, that's allI've always done is sort of
(23:32):
write to work things out, youknow?
And
Mandy (23:35):
that comes up with the letter, right?
I mean, that's why you wrote toyour dad because, right?
I do believe, I think somepeople process things through
talking and some people processthings through writing.
I'm definitely the writingprocessor more than the talking.
Yeah,
Sheila (23:50):
I am too.
I, and at that time in my life,especially, you know, this
boyfriend I've mentioned a fewtimes already was very good at
talking.
He was very good at talkingcircles.
He was very argumentative.
He was also very smart, butmanipulative in ways that were,
you know, kept me quiet.
And I would feel, I rememberlike when we would fight, I
(24:12):
would feel like I couldn't matchhim.
In terms of, you know, logicalargumentation, I would get
flustered very fast because ofemotions, you know, and so that
was the same thing with my dad,I was always, it was always such
a measure of like my beingintimidated by him and worried
that he wasn't going to prove ofme that it was hard to be honest
with him.
about whatever was happening.
(24:34):
There were a few, moments in ourrelationship that stand out as
being kind of anomalous in thatway, where he did somehow seem
to understand who I was but theywere few and far between,
really.
I mean, I, I never, I neverdidn't think he loved me.
I knew that he did.
But it was, he was a hard man toknow, you know, he was not hard
(24:55):
to love for me, even though hewas, he was, you know, he had
deep, deep, you know, he wasdeeply flawed like we all are.
So, a couple of years ago, youprobably know about this, I
don't remember when this was, Iremember reading articles about
something called, you're goingto, you're going to know this
better than I am, extended griefsyndrome or something or
persistent grief.
Mandy (25:16):
Yeah.
Persistent or complicated grief.
Right.
Sheila (25:19):
And I remember reading that and I'm like, Oh my God,
this explains so much because I,the grief that I felt about my
father absolutely shaped who Iwas.
All through my twenties into mythirties and beyond to the point
where like, I couldn't talkabout him without crying.
I couldn't look at pictures ofhim without going right back to
(25:40):
that, that moment, like justfeeling it so viscerally.
And it never occurred to me thatthat wasn't normal or that that
wasn't, you know, that noteverybody experienced it that
way.
And I know that it's a, it's a,a spectrum of experience,
whatever.
But suddenly that a couple ofyears ago, I was like, oh.
You know, that is, it is, Iwonder why I felt it so
strongly.
(26:01):
And I think it's an easy, aneasy thing to point to, like all
of the things I've told youabout the complications of our
relationship.
Plus the fact that I was righton the cusp of adulthood when he
died.
You know, I was just about to bemy own full self and I lost him
and he was young and it wasclear.
I mean, he was 46.
And so like that part of it toomade everything so much more
(26:24):
dramatic, you know?
Yeah.
So it's just, it was just thisoutsized thing.
Mandy (26:29):
Yeah, I was 26.
When my mom died and she was 47.
So, so, you know, similar ages.
And I think I had a very similarexperience where it, it defined
who I was.
It totally changed thetrajectory of my life and who I
am today.
And, and I think grief in, inmany ways does that for everyone
to some degree, but I do thinkin young adulthood, because of
(26:52):
that transition period, and whenyou're trying to find yourself
and, and define who you are whensomething like that happens.
Takes hold and kind of doesn'tlet go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned, you know, youwrote poetry about it when
Things happened, but you andI've heard this.
Obviously I'm, I'm a writeralso.
(27:14):
And I know that everyone saysyou need distance from the event
before you really dig intowriting about it.
So at what point in your lifedid you decide I want to write a
memoir about this and how didyou come to
Sheila (27:29):
shape it?
Yeah, great question.
So yes, I, I was writing poetryabout it right from the get go.
I didn't become a memoir writeruntil I was in graduate school.
So I got an MFA at Penn Statewhen I was 29, like started it
when I was 29.
I was already married anddivorced to the, to the guy I
was telling you about before myfather had been gone, you know,
(27:50):
close to a decade at that point.
And I was there to study poetry,but there was a a course being
offered.
One year in memoir writing thatwas like an elective and we all
decided, Oh, let's try that, youknow, and I'd never written
extended prose in my lifebefore.
And, and suddenly found likethere was this new, this new
kind of form that would hold allof this grief.
(28:13):
And I didn't just write abouthim, but I wrote about like the
marriage, the bad marriage andall that.
But what happened in that, inthat class is that I wrote a
piece about.
It was really about my, mymarriage and divorce.
And after I graduated from theprogram, I stayed, in state
college for a long time.
I, I did, and then I met my, mynew husband.
(28:34):
And during that time, a friendof mine who had been in that
class with me, who was alsostill teaching at Penn State was
a reader of Glamour Magazine.
I was not.
And she noted this, this contestthat they were calling for.
It was called the story of yourlife.
And she said, you should sendthat essay.
about your divorce to thiscontest.
And I was like, but I did and Iwon it, which was this totally
(28:58):
like the branch, you know, likehere's me as a writer.
And then all of a sudden I'mgoing off in this direction.
So one of the things that, whichwas a great experience, really
wild and surreal to be, you knowpublished in glamor after I had
been writing these poems inlittle tiny literary magazines
that nobody ever read anyway.
When One of the parts of the, ofthe award for glamour was a
conversation with an agent andwe had this wonderful, I had
(29:21):
this wonderful sit down with anagent who said that she
appreciated my writing.
She liked it.
And she said, do you have anidea for a book length project?
And I said, as a matter of fact,I do.
And at that point, I had beenthinking about obviously about
my father, but about writing a.
An accounting of our life, amemoir through the lens of the
(29:41):
only thing that we shared thatwas.
To my mind at the time,completely uncomplicated, which
was food.
And of course it's notuncomplicated, but he loves
food.
I loved, I loved to eat withhim.
Like at that, at the time thathe was alive, I didn't have the
same relationship to food thathe did.
He was, you know, he was a worldtraveler.
He was very, adventurous in hiseating.
(30:03):
And I saw that really early onand thought, okay, that's how I
can connect with him by, byloving that the same way he
does.
And then as I mentioned before,when I went to college and he
was living in the same, sort ofin the same region, we would
meet and go for lunch together.
He also had started earlier inour life before my parents were
divorced.
Maybe when I, when I was about14, he started taking me out for
(30:25):
dinner on my birthday, just him,to a very fancy schmancy place,
you know, so it was likespecial.
Anyway, I told the agent thisand she said, Oh.
She said, that's, that would begreat.
But there are not that manymemoirs that are father daughter
food memoirs.
There are a lot of mother,daughter go write that thing.
So I had just gotten married tomy, my current husband and I had
(30:48):
a wonderful opportunity to go toa writer's retreat for a month
and I wrote and wrote and wroteand wrote this.
What I thought was going to bethis memoir about our
relationship through the lens offood and the meals we shared.
And when I came back to theagent, she said, this is really
beautiful.
You've got a real facility withscene and language and all this,
but it's not a memoir.
(31:09):
It's not a, it's not like astraightforward narrative arc.
And the way she explained itback then was it needs to be
more novelistic.
Like there needs to be onestory.
You know, that's not what itwas.
This was already how many yearspast his.
His death and my memory memorydoesn't work that way for me.
So it was, it was much more likeessays.
So that's when it started.
(31:30):
And I would say that was 2000.
And the book just came out lastweek.
Oh, wow.
So 20 years.
Mandy (31:40):
Yeah.
And for people out there whoaren't well versed in writing, I
mean, there are memoirs andessays.
That is absolutely a genre and athing.
Was it just not at that timethought to be,
Sheila (31:53):
I guess, I guess not.
I guess not.
And it.
It was, you know, obviouslydisheartening because here you
think you have like, this is it,this is going to be the thing
that puts me on the map as awriter or whatever.
Yeah, I
Mandy (32:03):
do think I already have an agent or I already have, you
know, Like
Sheila (32:06):
I felt so I felt so like completely fortunate and lucky
and all these things.
And and then when it didn'twork, I felt like, oh, I've
squandered my only chance to, tosell this thing.
And for, so for the next likelong time, I.
Tried to do what she wanted andother, I also started querying
(32:27):
other agents who gave mebasically the same response she
had that they couldn't sell it.
I didn't have any kind of likeplatform.
I'm not famous, you know,whatever.
So I struggled and struggled Itried to force it into this form
that they had asked for and thenfinally realized it's not going
to happen.
I am still a nonfiction writerit turns out I still love
(32:49):
writing.
Memoir, short memoir essaysabout my life.
And of course, you know, 20years, I lost my father at the
beginning of it, but in themiddle I got married, divorced,
married again.
I have two children.
I became a professor, like mywhole life kept going, you know?
And so I kept writing about mylife because that's just what I
do.
(33:09):
And I.
I realized, okay, well, maybethis is not a memoir.
Maybe it's a collection ofessays that is about more than
just my father and ourrelationship through food.
It certainly is like, that'skind of the heart of it, but
there's all this other stuff totalk about too, especially my
son.
My son is, he's just turned 18but I've been cooking with him
(33:30):
since he was about nine yearsold.
He has that thing that I havethat my father has.
He's like the continuation ofit.
And so cooking and eating withmy son has been a really
interesting.
Process in light of all ofeverything that has come before.
So that has given me a lot towrite about and think about to
anyway, so I, I realized it wasa collection.
(33:51):
I tried to sell it as acollection and struggled with
that as well until I found theSmall Publisher Clash Books back
in 2020 is when I think theytook the book.
And I was shocked.
I was at the moment of like,okay, this is just, it's going
to be a project that I have toput away and just say I wrote it
(34:12):
and it's over and move on to thenext thing.
I was just about there when theytook the book.
And it took a couple of years tocome out because they You know,
because publishing is long, butalso because they shifted their
publishing model and got adistributor, a national
distributor, which was so muchbetter for me.
So it took a little while longerthan I, than we expected at
first.
But, but it's here in the worldnow.
Mandy (34:32):
Wow.
What a journey to get there.
Sheila (34:35):
Yeah, it's wild.
It's wild.
So I'm very grateful to themthey're a publisher that really
like they kind of go to the beatof their own drum.
They publish whatever they want.
There's no real like, they havea kind of a niche that kind of,
they publish really edgy stuff,horror, things like that.
But they also have a, a dog,like a cookbook for dog treats.
(35:00):
And they have my book, which is,you know, a lit much more
literary kind of thing.
But I like that about them.
They're like, we just publishwhat we like.
So that's awesome.
Yeah, it is.
Mandy (35:09):
It is.
So for listeners, I I've seenthe cover of your book.
I have your book, but I have notyet read your book.
Admittedly, I have only read thefirst chapter, but it is
amazing.
So I'd love for people to, youcan share the name and I will
definitely in the links, I willhave links to the name of your
book, your website, everywherethat people can find you.
(35:31):
And also I'd love to link thelit hub article so that people
can get a taste for what thebook is like.
Cause I really think once they.
Read that first chapter.
They're going to want to readthe whole thing.
So yes, what is the name of thebook?
The
Sheila (35:44):
book is called all things edible, random and odd
essays on grief, love and food.
And I can tell you, I hope thisis okay to say if you know,
there's a book that came out acouple of years ago that was
very, very popular for very goodreason called crying in H Mart.
Yes.
Do you know this book?
Mm hmm.
Michelle's Honor.
Let me tell you the funny, Idon't know what to call this.
(36:05):
It's not exactly a coincidence,but it's an interesting little
tidbit.
I'll start by saying if youliked that book, I think you'll
like my book too because thething that they, that the both
books share is a central focuson a parent child relationship,
a troubled parent childrelationship, and the way that
they connect through food.
In Zahner's book, it's, it's hermother who is dying of cancer
(36:28):
and it's the way they cook theycook food together from her
mother's, you know, from, fromtheir culture.
And with mine, it's my father,as I've mentioned.
But the funny thing is that Iwas reading, I actually taught
Crying in H Mart to a graduatefood writing class.
At Chatham University where Iteach a couple years ago, and I
had not read the book before.
I knew I wanted to, but I hadn'tread it.
(36:50):
And my book was already undercontract and I'm reading
Michelle's book and it's amazingand I'm crying and everybody's
crying and it's just great.
And then I get to like the lastchapter of it and I learn that
Michelle's Honor won the sameglamor contest that I won.
No really.
I was the first I won it.
The, I won it the first timethey ever offered it.
(37:12):
And then she won it in like 2019or sport 18 or 19 and crying in
H Mart.
I, it came directly from theessay that won that.
That contest, which is justfeels like what?
Yeah.
That's wild.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So hers is much more like whatmy agent wanted.
Right?
Hers is much more of like thenovelistic story.
(37:32):
But I do think that they havetheir sort of cousins.
And you know, I love it if maybeI can send her a copy someday
that she would read it, but, youknow, she's a rock star.
So who knows?
Mandy (37:40):
That's incredible.
I love that story.
You should tell her the storyand then
Sheila (37:44):
I would love to, I, actually, I had hoped that maybe
she would blurb the book, butyou know, again, she really is a
rock star.
She's a, she's a musician.
So but there was no doing that,but maybe I can send her a gift
copy and just say, Hey, youknow, When you're in between
your tours, maybe you want tocrack, crack this open and have
a look, but.
Wow.
Yeah.
It's nice.
It's good to be in, in night.
It's like, it really feels goodto be able to point to a
wonderful book that I really didgenuinely love and say, my book
(38:08):
is a little like this.
Mandy (38:10):
So.
That's incredible.
And it helps that I'm sure a lotof listeners know that book.
So.
Yeah, I'm really excited foryou.
I'm, I think that just byreading what I've read of you, I
think that you have a real giftfor the way you say things.
I actually wanted to end thingswith a quote that is actually
quoted in your Lit Hub article,but you said, I write because I
(38:33):
want to continue my father, notcontain him.
And I, I just think that's sobeautiful.
And often I talk with guestshere and we talk about different
ways that they have processedtheir grief or move through
their grief and writingobviously as an outlet for many
people.
And sometimes people don't evenrealize how healing it can be.
And I love this idea ofcontinuing our loved ones
(38:56):
through our writing and
Sheila (38:59):
it's beautiful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I also, I think I want to sayone thing to writers out there
My experience, you know, wasmany times in my writing life
between that moment of loss andnow I have said to myself, Oh my
gosh, like, am I ever going towrite anything other than this?
(39:19):
And I had this fear that I was Idon't know, you know, kind of
like in a rut or no one wants tohear these stories or, you know,
et cetera.
And it wasn't until fairlyrecently, maybe with the book,
this book's acceptance where Irealized it is fine to keep
writing about this.
Of course, I'm going to keepwriting about this.
(39:39):
What is more, what's moreformative than your relationship
with your parents?
And I will, I will write aboutthis for the rest of my life.
And so if you're out there andyou're writing about.
You know, your own loss andyou're feeling the way that I
did just stay in it.
Know that it's valuable.
You know, this is such a humanthing that we, unfortunately, we
(40:00):
all share this.
We're all going to lose someoneat some point.
And all of our stories about howto manage that and cope with it
and make a life from it are soimportant to hear and share.
So.
I love that
Mandy (40:15):
advice.
I, I've definitely been in thatheadspace before, where you
think people are so sick ofseeing articles and stories
about loss and grief and, youknow, the experiences that we've
had, but I, I love that advice.
Sheila (40:29):
There's very little that's more human and that
connects us more, you know,concretely.
Mandy (40:33):
One of the quotes that I, admire Cheryl Strayed for, she
is very open about saying mymother was the love of my life.
And I remember when I read thatand when I've heard her say
that, just feeling like, I don'tknow that I was brave enough to
put that out there just for fearof judgment of others, even
though it resonated so much withme.
(40:55):
Yeah.
And so.
Yeah, I think it's the samething.
We're like accepting that.
Yeah, this is what I want to sayto the world and that's okay.
And there are people to listento it and it can be around the
same themes.
Sheila (41:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The last essay in the book isabout my mother's death.
Which happened very recently.
She died in 2021, right afterthe book was accepted and as I
mentioned before, she had beenan active alcoholic.
Our, our relationship wastremendously strained, but When
she died of cancer in 2021, shehad had 14 years of sobriety
(41:32):
through AA, and our relationshiphad been, you know, transformed
through that.
And when she died, it was, itwas painful, but it was not the
same kind of devastation, partlybecause my mother lived a lot
longer than my father did.
So there wasn't the tragedy of,oh, she's so young.
She was, but she was 72.
(41:52):
But the difference I think forme is that we got to live out
our story together.
We got to stay in it and fightit out and grow and love each
other through, you know, allthese different moments in our
lives.
And so I, there are no questionmarks left in my mother, my life
(42:13):
with my mother, my relationshipwith my mother.
It's just pure feeling of.
I loved her and I miss her.
It's not the same as, as it waswith my father.
And I'm actually very gratefulthat I have now these two very
different experiences of grief.
And so all that just to say thatthe experience, that's a
spectrum of, of experience, youknow?
(42:34):
Yeah.
And I'm glad that I was able to,I'm sorry my mother died before
seeing this book, but I'm veryglad that I was able to, to
include her.
Every episode and interview onthe podcast is special to me,
but some just strike me a littledifferent.
Sheila's has been one of thosefor me, maybe because everyone
has memories of food thatreminds us of our loved ones.
(42:56):
And she's found a way to extractthose in her book.
Or maybe it's just the simplefact that our parents were
similar ages when they passed.
And we both went on to writeabout it.
But whatever it was, I hope youfound pieces of her story that
resonated with you as well.
Check the show notes to read anarticle with an excerpt of her
book and to find links where youcan purchase a copy of your own.
(43:16):
For today's journal prompt,write about a meal or a specific
food that reminds you of yourperson.
The taste, the smell, thememory, it conjures, whatever it
brings up for you.
Like Elise, let the writing leadyou in whatever direction it
takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
(43:36):
And as always.
Does it remember grams?
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief trails podcast.
I'm your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from, rememberGraham's a small business
dedicated to helping you supportthose in your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box shippingwithin the us is always free.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
every detail.
(00:22):
Listeners.
I've been looking forward tosharing this episode with you.
Uh, conversation with authorsheila Squillante.
Of the recently released book,all things edible, random and
odd.
Essays on grief, love and food.
Sheila's also professor anddirector of the MFA creative
writing program at Chathamuniversity in Pittsburgh.
(00:44):
Here.
She takes us back to herrelationship with her dad.
Complicated and the way thatmany of our parental
relationships are in our lateteens and early twenties.
And she shares openly about hisdeath and her grief that
followed.
For listeners of the show whoare also writers, you'll want to
listen to tell the ad and tohear about her path to
publishing.
And for those who don't consideryourself a writer, she is a
(01:06):
great example of someone whoprocessed her grief largely
through writing.
Something anyone can do, whetheryou strive to share it with the
world or with no one at all.
Before we dive in.
I just want to say, I wish Icould give everyone who hears
this episode, a copy of herbook.
It's not a book.
I'm seeing a book talk or a namethat everyone is going to
recognize, but it's one you'llwant to save her.
(01:28):
She focuses on life and deaththrough food.
Meals shared and the memoriesthat come with them.
New traditions made like how shespends the anniversary of the
death with her self-made ritualcalled dead dad day.
It's beautiful and layered muchlike the story you're about to
hear.
Let's take a listen.
Sheila (01:46):
So I'm happy to share the story.
I'm happy.
Seems like a strange thing tosay when I'm about to share a
story about loss, but the storyof losing my father, whose name
was Richard's will auntie whenhe was 46 and I was 21.
And I'll get to that part in aminute, but to give you a little
background about.
My life and who he was myparents were my father in
(02:09):
particular was a an executivefor IBM.
He was a very kind ofconservative self made guy.
He was really smart and funnyand dry.
He had a dry wit.
Sarcasm was kind of like thelanguage we all spoke in the
house, but he was also reallywithholding in terms of like his
(02:31):
emotional expression.
And I.
Wanted desperately my whole lifeto reach him, to like him, want
to, you know, feel that he likedme and understood me.
He, so I have a sister that Igrew up with.
She's a little younger than Iam.
And she struggled we bothstruggled with our relationship
(02:52):
with him in different ways.
But theirs was more contentious.
Always.
And I was just the firstdaughter and always very, you
know, compliant and mostlyobedient.
And again, you're like a goodstudent and all of these things
that I knew he appreciated.
He wasn't, I don't think he wassuper happy to be married to our
mother.
It was a, you know, one of thosesituations where They kind of
(03:15):
got pushed together for maybethe wrong reasons and it was a
pretty big mismatch, I think,from the start.
So I say all of this by way oflike kind of showing you that he
wasn't very present in ourlives.
He was, he really threw most ofhis energy into work and he was
very good at work.
You know, he was an executivefor IBM.
He traveled all over the world.
(03:36):
He was intimidating, which isinteresting because he was.
Tiny.
He was like this very slightman, you know, he's like 5'9 or
something and narrow shouldered,but he had this incredible,
incredible presence that wasreally, truly intimidating.
And because he didn't say a lotof, like, he didn't say He
wouldn't do chit chat.
(03:56):
He hated chit chat.
Anytime he spoke, it had to besomething really big, something
really important.
And so we were always kind oftiptoeing around that in our
house which was a really hardway to to live.
And as I got older, it becameclear to me that my parents were
not in a happy marriage.
My parents both drank a lot.
(04:19):
Probably my father was analcoholic, but it wasn't, that's
not how it was framed when I wasgrowing up.
It was more like alcohol is likethe, the thing you do as a
business person, like in socialsituations, you know?
But my mother, Definitely was analcoholic.
And as I got closer and closerto kind of college age, her
(04:39):
alcoholism got worse, theirmarriage got worse, the climate
in the house got worse.
And all of that was punctuatedby the fact that I had this
boyfriend.
That my father did not approveof and really in retrospect, my
father was right about myboyfriend, but you know, I don't
know if you've had thisexperience, but when you're like
17 and you're, you know, there'sthat like, yeah.
(05:02):
So it was a, it was a very tensekind of time and I ended up
going to college where myboyfriend was.
My father, you know, continuedto disapprove of him, and there
were conflicts, verbalconflicts.
There was once a physicalconflict between them, which was
upsetting.
(05:23):
And I felt very pulled betweenthe two of them.
And in my junior year ofcollege.
So I was, my parents weredivorced by this time and my
father was living in WestchesterCounty, New York, which is where
also where I was going tocollege.
So we were we got to see eachother kind of a lot.
We would have lunch togetherweekly.
(05:44):
And it was actually a wonderfulpart of our relationship that I,
that I treasure thinking aboutwith those like weekly lunch
dates, meeting up with him andkind of starting to get to know
him as an adult.
That year was also the year thatmy obedience and compliance
started to kind of fray.
I was becoming more politicallyNot I won't say like activist, I
(06:06):
was not an activist, but I wasmore politically aware.
My parents were veryconservative, they were probably
registered Republicans and I wasgoing in a different direction.
And so this, this sort of strainon our relationship had to do
somewhat with that and then alsothis boyfriend who's floating
around.
And in the year leading up tohis death, and I, it's an
(06:27):
important year because it's theonly time in our relationship
where we were absolutelyestranged from each other, and
there were a number of thingsthat happened in the fall,
including him kind of schedulingme an interview to be a waitress
at a, at a bar that he likedwithout telling me and like sort
of calling me up and being like,you have an interview on
(06:47):
Wednesday at, at nine.
I'm like, I have a job already.
I'm like, you know, so it wasthat, that kind of boundary
crossing.
Mandy (06:56):
And I, I mean, at that, at that age, it's so important
for children to, as they'retransitioning into adulthood, to
find that independence and to,to create who they are on their
own, separate from theirparents.
And so I think it's a verycommon sense of strain and in
relationships with parents thatsometimes parents can't let go
(07:16):
yet, or they want more controlthan they have.
Sheila (07:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's exactly, that'sabsolutely what it is.
And now, like, with all thishindsight and time, I can say,
Oh, that was, that was like theway it was supposed to go.
Right.
It was natural.
But at the time it feltterrible.
It felt, you know, it felt likelike it felt like a loss, like I
was losing this connection tohim.
And.
By the time the new year camearound, I was so angry with him
(07:43):
for a variety of things.
That was one of them, but justsort of generally, I was angry
with him and I was tired ofbeing like in my head.
I was like, I'm the only one whoever like extends myself in this
relationship.
I mean, it's ridiculous.
You don't have a relationshipwith your 19 really, right?
But I thought I deserved that.
(08:03):
Yeah.
And so in the new year, rightaround January 1st, I sent him
this letter.
This letter that was like, itoutlined all the reasons I was
angry with him.
And it used the F word a bunchof times.
And I'll tell you why that'srelevant in a minute, but I was
really angry and I was in mymind, I was like, I want, I want
to express myself and I wantrespect back.
(08:25):
And I want you to, I want tohear that you love me.
I need to, I need this from you.
I expect it.
I deserve it.
And I sent it and I heardnothing, I heard nothing,
nothing happened you know,January leaves, February goes,
you know, maybe it's March and Idon't know, I'm still sitting
around wondering like, is hegoing to respond to me?
(08:46):
What's going to happen?
At one point, I think it wasspring break.
I was home at my mother's house.
And He called and I answered thephone.
And when he realized it was me,he hung up.
Oh no.
Yeah, it was very, he was verystubborn, you know, and very
like dug in on this.
And then June came and that'sFather's Day.
(09:08):
Right.
And I was like, Okay, it'sFather's Day.
Sheila, you can't ignore this.
You need to send him something.
And I sent him something and Istill didn't hear anything from
him.
God, he was stubborn.
So it was, it was a painfulyear.
It was a really like, like trialby fire for my emotional and my,
my sense of identity and allthat.
And by the time late July rolledaround I was just like, am I
(09:35):
ever going to talk with himagain?
I don't, I don't know what'sgoing to happen here, you know?
And one morning, I don't knowwhat the date was, but again,
like late July is the timeline.
I got a phone call from mysister early in the morning and
she said, dad's sick.
You need to come.
We're at the hospital.
So he'd been not well, like, youknow, he didn't take care of
(09:56):
himself physically.
He was diabetic.
Like he had been diagnosed likeat 40 or something with one.
I don't know.
He was, he was like an insulindependent diabetic that like he
was hiding butter cookies underhis bed eating, you know, He was
a heavy smoker he ate and drankand did whatever the heck he
wanted and had had a heartattack also the previous year.
(10:18):
So he was not well.
So immediately when I heard thathe was sick, I thought it had
something to do with either ofthose two things.
And so I threw my clothes on anddrove to the hospital.
He was in Danbury Hospital,which is a Western Connecticut
hospital.
And I drove there and, I was onthe phone with my sister trying
to get information and it seemedlike He had had a stroke.
(10:42):
That's what they had originallythought because he had lost.
He like, what is the when youcan't speak?
Yeah.
So when I got to the ICU or theemergency room, I guess, and he
was there, I went in to see him.
And again, this is the firsttime I see I've seen him in
almost a full year.
And.
I, I'm like trying to talk withhim and he's so angry.
(11:06):
He's like red faced and justtrying to speak and he's yelling
at me and I can't understand himbecause it's that speech you
know, impediment.
And I finally realized that whathe's yelling at me about is the
letter.
The letter that I sent him that,you know, and I'm saying to him,
dad, I love, I love you.
And he was like, you know, itdidn't sound like that in this
(11:27):
letter and so angry about theletter.
And I thought, this is crazy.
You are in a hospital bed,you're hooked up to these wires.
What's happening?
And you're yelling at me about aletter.
Mandy (11:36):
Anyway, well, it just shows how much, how much that
stuck with him and how much itmeant to him.
Like it did have an impact.
It's not like he got it andthrew it in the garbage.
You know,
Sheila (11:46):
later I'll jump ahead just a second to tell you, like
later after he passed away, mymother and I went to his office
to clean out.
You know, his stuff and shefound his briefcase, which
included all sorts of like, youknow, important documents,
including the letter, which hehad circled with a red pen, all
of the F words.
(12:08):
I don't know.
I, you know, I have kids nowmyself.
And so I think about what, whatthat must've felt like for him.
Anyway, the letter.
And I remember saying to him inthe, the emergency room, like,
dad, like, chill.
We'll talk about it later.
I love you.
We have, we'll have all thistime to talk about it.
And of course, that's the,that's the irony is that we did
not have all this time to talkabout it.
(12:29):
And he was moved into He wasmoved into ICU, I think, right
from the ER.
Again, they were still thinkingstroke, but then as the, you
know, as the early days keptgoing, they started to decide,
they decided it wasn't, hadn'tbeen a stroke at all.
And he was, he had some swellingin his brain and they thought
that that was what.
Was causing this aphasia.
(12:49):
Is that what the term is?
I think.
Yeah.
And so we were waiting forantibiotics that they were
pumping him through antibioticsto clear this infection or
whatever it was, and nothing wastouching it.
And he was getting he wasn'tgetting any better.
And he wasn't getting any worseexactly, but he was definitely
in this place of incapacity.
(13:11):
And so in those, again, in likethe early, like the first three
or four days, you know, all ofthe relatives come swarming in
and I say all the relatives, Imean, my mom's family, she She
had eight brothers and twosisters.
Oh, wow.
And her mother and my mom, andthey're divorced, remember?
So, but they'd only beendivorced for a short while and
(13:31):
they'd been married for 20years.
And so here come all of myuncles.
And here come my grandparents,my father's parents were still
living from Florida, and itbecame this like total circus in
the ICU waiting room which wasvery difficult to kind of you
know, to try to like find myselfin that space and to try to feel
(13:54):
some kind of connection to whatwas happening and to like the
larger context of what had beenhappening between us.
And in those first couple ofdays, there was not part of me
that was thinking, Oh, he'sgoing to die.
Like, that hadn't gotten thereyet.
But it didn't take too muchlonger to get there so a couple,
maybe five days or so, six daysinto it it seemed like they were
(14:15):
going to move him to a, like arehab floor and kind of start to
get back, you know, and that wasencouraging.
And.
The other thing that was theother stressor that was
happening was that he had agirlfriend that we hadn't known
about.
And she was at the hospital.
And so my mother was at thehospital, my girl, it was like
this thing out of a soap opera.
You know,
Mandy (14:35):
it was a soap
Sheila (14:36):
opera.
It was dramatic.
I'm laughing about it, but atthe time it was really kind of
horrifying.
And I felt, I remember feelingreally angry that there was all
this drama around it when I justwanted to kind of focus on my
father and.
It seemed really serious to me,whether I thought it was going
to be fatal or not, it wasserious.
It was, it was this big lifechange for him.
(14:57):
And anyway, at the same, sametime, remember my, my boyfriend,
who he hates is kind of floatingaround in the background, not
coming into this room, butdriving me to the hospital, all
this.
So the day that I was, I wasleaving the hospital and I went
over to him and I said, dad, I'mgoing to go.
And I'll see you tomorrow.
I love you.
And he grabbed my hand, whichwas completely uncharacteristic
(15:20):
of him.
And he was crying, which wasalso completely
uncharacteristic.
And he said, I love you, whichwas a third totally out of like,
my father just didn't say thosethings.
If I said, dad, I love you, hewould say me too.
That was his stock answer.
And this time he said it back.
While he was crying and I wassort of undone, I thought, what
(15:42):
is happening?
So I went home and I got a callagain early the next morning
that he'd gone into a comaovernight.
It's almost like he knew, youknow, it feels like he knew a
lot like the briefcase Imentioned before he, all of his
like important documents were init.
Like as if he knew something wasgoing to happen and my mother
told us later that they had hada conversation they were having
(16:04):
a not a super contentiousdivorce sort of thing but not
super happy either you know, buthe had told her I feel like
something's gonna happen.
Wow.
I did.
So what happened in the next, hewas, he was in the hospital.
It was 10 days from the firstphone call from my sister that
he was sick to his, to hisdeath.
(16:24):
And what we learned in theinterim and those like, you
know, after he fell into a comawas that the infection that he
had was not, it was neverbacterial.
It was always viral.
And so they tried to, and thiswas 1992.
And so, you know, medicine,whatever it's.
Yeah, 30 years ago.
So it's different, right?
And so some resident was, wasthe one that was like, I wonder
(16:46):
if it's viral, but it was toolate.
You know, they were, they gavehim the antiviral stuff, but it
didn't work.
And he never woke up from that.
We had to make the decision todisconnect his life support you
know, at like day nine.
And it was surreal.
It was just surreal.
And again, like all of theseuncles of mine, and they're my
mom's brothers.
(17:07):
They're like these raucous Irishfunny guys like coming in and
trying to make you feel better,which was, that's of course what
you would do right but at thetime it felt like I'm, I'm
actually in the circus.
And so we made the decision to,to disconnect, and I remember
that.
This was, it was like theafternoon of the day before and
(17:28):
we knew it was going to happenthe next morning.
And so I went into his room withhim.
Just, it was just me and him,the night before, and I talked
with him.
I don't, you know, I have noidea if he could hear me.
The doctors were like, we don'tknow.
But I said, you know, the thingsthat you say as a daughter when
your father's about to die.
I told him how much I loved him,and I did.
(17:49):
And then I decided the nextmorning that I didn't want to
be.
in the room with him when thishappened, not because I was
afraid of, of the moment ofdeath or anything like that.
It had to do with, I knew it wasgoing to be another circus.
I knew that it would be stuffedwith people.
And I wanted, I wanted my griefto be more private than that.
(18:11):
But I also felt like, I neededto send a representative.
And so my boyfriend, whichagain, went for me.
And I was sitting out in the,you know, the, the lobby right
outside of like the doors to theICU.
I remember sitting there with acup of tea in my hands, like
(18:32):
scalding hot tea and the doorsopened and outcome all of the
people.
And it was in that room was mymother, my sister, my three
grandparents.
At least three cousins you know,uncles, aunts, the girlfriend
was probably there, I don'tremember, but it was like, not
me though, and my boyfriendanyway, when everybody came out
and they had told us, you know,I don't, we don't know, once we
(18:56):
turn off the machines, we don'tknow how long he'll have, and he
didn't have anything, and hedied immediately, but I don't
know.
You know, it was this moment oflike, okay, this is the next
part of my life about to start.
And this was right before mysenior year of college started.
It was August, he died in Augustsixth.
And, you know, I started schoolon like August 28th or something
like that.
(19:17):
And I, and I thinking back now,I'm like, why did I go back to
school that semester?
Why didn't I take some time togrieve?
But I didn't, I went to school.
And all I could talk about wasthis.
All I could talk about.
I wanted to talk about everysingle detail of the death.
Yes.
All the 10 days.
And honestly, Amanda, this is,talking with you right now,
recounting it, is the first timeI've done this, in this kind of
(19:39):
detail, for a really long time.
But back then, I had this sensethat as long as I could keep all
of the minor, the minute detailsLike, with me and in me, then I
wouldn't lose him.
Mandy (19:53):
You know, it's so interesting that you say you
wanted to like go over thatwhole time over and over again.
I had a very similar experiencewith my mom's death where I
wanted to like, I could havetalked about that day every
single day and just like where Iwas standing, the words that
were said.
Right.
Right.
All of these details and peopledon't necessarily want to hear
(20:16):
that.
Sheila (20:17):
Right, right.
They don't.
They don't.
I remember telling, saying thisexact thing to this wonderful
professor who was my poetryprofessor.
He was like my mentor.
He was also, you know, he wasone of those professors that
kind of like just holds youthrough your time.
And he did that for me.
And I remember talking with himabout this and he said to me,
Sheila, people think death iscatching.
(20:38):
It's They think they're going tocatch it from you and that is
why they don't want they thinkyou're walking around like a
neon sign that says death, youknow, and that's why you have to
find the people who have beenthrough it.
And, you know, I was, I was 19.
I was 12.
I was 19.
I was 21 when he died.
My sister was 19.
I didn't know anybody who hadlost a parent at that point.
Mandy (20:59):
Right.
And your friends are 21 andwanting to get, get drunk and go
out to the bars
Sheila (21:03):
and Right, right.
Exactly.
And so, and and here I am thislike all I was already a poet,
like predisposed to writing sadpoems, you know?
And now all of a sudden I'mwriting really sad poems.
Yeah.
Really, really sad poems.
In fact, I was a senior and Iwas a creative writing major and
I was an honors student and thisprofessor I just mentioned was
(21:24):
my thesis director and he said,you need to write about this.
You need to, this needs to beyour thesis.
My thesis was going to be achapbook of poetry and I wrote a
chapbook of poetry about those10 days.
And like now as a professormyself, I would never, I don't
think I would ever recommend astudent.
Immerse themselves that deeplyinto their grief that that close
(21:46):
in terms of like time, but it isI think what I needed to do.
So that's what I did.
And I talked about it where Icould, but I wrote about it
mostly.
Mandy (21:56):
And it's almost like because you didn't have the
outlet to talk about it enoughto satiate that need that you
were able to just transfer thatenergy and write about it.
I
Sheila (22:06):
think so.
I think that's true.
And I think the other, the otherpart of it is that because we
had such a kind of adysfunctional family life my
sister and I.
Had a very different relation,different reactions to his
death.
She was actually living with himat the time that he died.
So and it was the only time,like, just like it had been the
year before he died was the onlytime he and I had been
estranged.
(22:27):
The year before he died was theonly time she and he had not
been in some kind of likebattle.
And I'm so glad she had thatactually, like thinking back.
That's, that's such a gift thatshe had that but I didn't feel
like I could talk with my motherabout it because it was so, it
was such a weird thing for herbecause she loved him so much
(22:47):
and he didn't love her back andthey spent all these years
together.
And then he had this girlfriendwho had like, it turned out that
he had been, you know, with thisgirlfriend when they were
married, like just all of thisugly, emotional.
junk that I was afraid to talkwith her about it.
Plus she was drinking a lot andher life was spiraling out this
other way.
And our relationship was alsosuddenly very, very stressed.
(23:11):
So, so yeah, I, I talked aboutit with the few people that I
could.
And of course my boyfriend hatedhim and he hated my, my, and I,
spoiler alert, I married theguy.
Oh, and then divorced later.
But My dad was not wrong.
Yeah, I started writing.
I mean, that's all I could do.
I think I've always, that's allI've always done is sort of
(23:32):
write to work things out, youknow?
And
Mandy (23:35):
that comes up with the letter, right?
I mean, that's why you wrote toyour dad because, right?
I do believe, I think somepeople process things through
talking and some people processthings through writing.
I'm definitely the writingprocessor more than the talking.
Yeah,
Sheila (23:50):
I am too.
I, and at that time in my life,especially, you know, this
boyfriend I've mentioned a fewtimes already was very good at
talking.
He was very good at talkingcircles.
He was very argumentative.
He was also very smart, butmanipulative in ways that were,
you know, kept me quiet.
And I would feel, I rememberlike when we would fight, I
(24:12):
would feel like I couldn't matchhim.
In terms of, you know, logicalargumentation, I would get
flustered very fast because ofemotions, you know, and so that
was the same thing with my dad,I was always, it was always such
a measure of like my beingintimidated by him and worried
that he wasn't going to prove ofme that it was hard to be honest
with him.
about whatever was happening.
(24:34):
There were a few, moments in ourrelationship that stand out as
being kind of anomalous in thatway, where he did somehow seem
to understand who I was but theywere few and far between,
really.
I mean, I, I never, I neverdidn't think he loved me.
I knew that he did.
But it was, he was a hard man toknow, you know, he was not hard
(24:55):
to love for me, even though hewas, he was, you know, he had
deep, deep, you know, he wasdeeply flawed like we all are.
So, a couple of years ago, youprobably know about this, I
don't remember when this was, Iremember reading articles about
something called, you're goingto, you're going to know this
better than I am, extended griefsyndrome or something or
persistent grief.
Mandy (25:16):
Yeah.
Persistent or complicated grief.
Right.
Sheila (25:19):
And I remember reading that and I'm like, Oh my God,
this explains so much because I,the grief that I felt about my
father absolutely shaped who Iwas.
All through my twenties into mythirties and beyond to the point
where like, I couldn't talkabout him without crying.
I couldn't look at pictures ofhim without going right back to
(25:40):
that, that moment, like justfeeling it so viscerally.
And it never occurred to me thatthat wasn't normal or that that
wasn't, you know, that noteverybody experienced it that
way.
And I know that it's a, it's a,a spectrum of experience,
whatever.
But suddenly that a couple ofyears ago, I was like, oh.
You know, that is, it is, Iwonder why I felt it so
strongly.
(26:01):
And I think it's an easy, aneasy thing to point to, like all
of the things I've told youabout the complications of our
relationship.
Plus the fact that I was righton the cusp of adulthood when he
died.
You know, I was just about to bemy own full self and I lost him
and he was young and it wasclear.
I mean, he was 46.
And so like that part of it toomade everything so much more
(26:24):
dramatic, you know?
Yeah.
So it's just, it was just thisoutsized thing.
Mandy (26:29):
Yeah, I was 26.
When my mom died and she was 47.
So, so, you know, similar ages.
And I think I had a very similarexperience where it, it defined
who I was.
It totally changed thetrajectory of my life and who I
am today.
And, and I think grief in, inmany ways does that for everyone
to some degree, but I do thinkin young adulthood, because of
(26:52):
that transition period, and whenyou're trying to find yourself
and, and define who you are whensomething like that happens.
Takes hold and kind of doesn'tlet go.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You mentioned, you know, youwrote poetry about it when
Things happened, but you andI've heard this.
Obviously I'm, I'm a writeralso.
(27:14):
And I know that everyone saysyou need distance from the event
before you really dig intowriting about it.
So at what point in your lifedid you decide I want to write a
memoir about this and how didyou come to
Sheila (27:29):
shape it?
Yeah, great question.
So yes, I, I was writing poetryabout it right from the get go.
I didn't become a memoir writeruntil I was in graduate school.
So I got an MFA at Penn Statewhen I was 29, like started it
when I was 29.
I was already married anddivorced to the, to the guy I
was telling you about before myfather had been gone, you know,
(27:50):
close to a decade at that point.
And I was there to study poetry,but there was a a course being
offered.
One year in memoir writing thatwas like an elective and we all
decided, Oh, let's try that, youknow, and I'd never written
extended prose in my lifebefore.
And, and suddenly found likethere was this new, this new
kind of form that would hold allof this grief.
(28:13):
And I didn't just write abouthim, but I wrote about like the
marriage, the bad marriage andall that.
But what happened in that, inthat class is that I wrote a
piece about.
It was really about my, mymarriage and divorce.
And after I graduated from theprogram, I stayed, in state
college for a long time.
I, I did, and then I met my, mynew husband.
(28:34):
And during that time, a friendof mine who had been in that
class with me, who was alsostill teaching at Penn State was
a reader of Glamour Magazine.
I was not.
And she noted this, this contestthat they were calling for.
It was called the story of yourlife.
And she said, you should sendthat essay.
about your divorce to thiscontest.
And I was like, but I did and Iwon it, which was this totally
(28:58):
like the branch, you know, likehere's me as a writer.
And then all of a sudden I'mgoing off in this direction.
So one of the things that, whichwas a great experience, really
wild and surreal to be, you knowpublished in glamor after I had
been writing these poems inlittle tiny literary magazines
that nobody ever read anyway.
When One of the parts of the, ofthe award for glamour was a
conversation with an agent andwe had this wonderful, I had
(29:21):
this wonderful sit down with anagent who said that she
appreciated my writing.
She liked it.
And she said, do you have anidea for a book length project?
And I said, as a matter of fact,I do.
And at that point, I had beenthinking about obviously about
my father, but about writing a.
An accounting of our life, amemoir through the lens of the
(29:41):
only thing that we shared thatwas.
To my mind at the time,completely uncomplicated, which
was food.
And of course it's notuncomplicated, but he loves
food.
I loved, I loved to eat withhim.
Like at that, at the time thathe was alive, I didn't have the
same relationship to food thathe did.
He was, you know, he was a worldtraveler.
He was very, adventurous in hiseating.
(30:03):
And I saw that really early onand thought, okay, that's how I
can connect with him by, byloving that the same way he
does.
And then as I mentioned before,when I went to college and he
was living in the same, sort ofin the same region, we would
meet and go for lunch together.
He also had started earlier inour life before my parents were
divorced.
Maybe when I, when I was about14, he started taking me out for
(30:25):
dinner on my birthday, just him,to a very fancy schmancy place,
you know, so it was likespecial.
Anyway, I told the agent thisand she said, Oh.
She said, that's, that would begreat.
But there are not that manymemoirs that are father daughter
food memoirs.
There are a lot of mother,daughter go write that thing.
So I had just gotten married tomy, my current husband and I had
(30:48):
a wonderful opportunity to go toa writer's retreat for a month
and I wrote and wrote and wroteand wrote this.
What I thought was going to bethis memoir about our
relationship through the lens offood and the meals we shared.
And when I came back to theagent, she said, this is really
beautiful.
You've got a real facility withscene and language and all this,
but it's not a memoir.
(31:09):
It's not a, it's not like astraightforward narrative arc.
And the way she explained itback then was it needs to be
more novelistic.
Like there needs to be onestory.
You know, that's not what itwas.
This was already how many yearspast his.
His death and my memory memorydoesn't work that way for me.
So it was, it was much more likeessays.
So that's when it started.
(31:30):
And I would say that was 2000.
And the book just came out lastweek.
Oh, wow.
So 20 years.
Mandy (31:40):
Yeah.
And for people out there whoaren't well versed in writing, I
mean, there are memoirs andessays.
That is absolutely a genre and athing.
Was it just not at that timethought to be,
Sheila (31:53):
I guess, I guess not.
I guess not.
And it.
It was, you know, obviouslydisheartening because here you
think you have like, this is it,this is going to be the thing
that puts me on the map as awriter or whatever.
Yeah, I
Mandy (32:03):
do think I already have an agent or I already have, you
know, Like
Sheila (32:06):
I felt so I felt so like completely fortunate and lucky
and all these things.
And and then when it didn'twork, I felt like, oh, I've
squandered my only chance to, tosell this thing.
And for, so for the next likelong time, I.
Tried to do what she wanted andother, I also started querying
(32:27):
other agents who gave mebasically the same response she
had that they couldn't sell it.
I didn't have any kind of likeplatform.
I'm not famous, you know,whatever.
So I struggled and struggled Itried to force it into this form
that they had asked for and thenfinally realized it's not going
to happen.
I am still a nonfiction writerit turns out I still love
(32:49):
writing.
Memoir, short memoir essaysabout my life.
And of course, you know, 20years, I lost my father at the
beginning of it, but in themiddle I got married, divorced,
married again.
I have two children.
I became a professor, like mywhole life kept going, you know?
And so I kept writing about mylife because that's just what I
do.
(33:09):
And I.
I realized, okay, well, maybethis is not a memoir.
Maybe it's a collection ofessays that is about more than
just my father and ourrelationship through food.
It certainly is like, that'skind of the heart of it, but
there's all this other stuff totalk about too, especially my
son.
My son is, he's just turned 18but I've been cooking with him
(33:30):
since he was about nine yearsold.
He has that thing that I havethat my father has.
He's like the continuation ofit.
And so cooking and eating withmy son has been a really
interesting.
Process in light of all ofeverything that has come before.
So that has given me a lot towrite about and think about to
anyway, so I, I realized it wasa collection.
(33:51):
I tried to sell it as acollection and struggled with
that as well until I found theSmall Publisher Clash Books back
in 2020 is when I think theytook the book.
And I was shocked.
I was at the moment of like,okay, this is just, it's going
to be a project that I have toput away and just say I wrote it
(34:12):
and it's over and move on to thenext thing.
I was just about there when theytook the book.
And it took a couple of years tocome out because they You know,
because publishing is long, butalso because they shifted their
publishing model and got adistributor, a national
distributor, which was so muchbetter for me.
So it took a little while longerthan I, than we expected at
first.
But, but it's here in the worldnow.
Mandy (34:32):
Wow.
What a journey to get there.
Sheila (34:35):
Yeah, it's wild.
It's wild.
So I'm very grateful to themthey're a publisher that really
like they kind of go to the beatof their own drum.
They publish whatever they want.
There's no real like, they havea kind of a niche that kind of,
they publish really edgy stuff,horror, things like that.
But they also have a, a dog,like a cookbook for dog treats.
(35:00):
And they have my book, which is,you know, a lit much more
literary kind of thing.
But I like that about them.
They're like, we just publishwhat we like.
So that's awesome.
Yeah, it is.
Mandy (35:09):
It is.
So for listeners, I I've seenthe cover of your book.
I have your book, but I have notyet read your book.
Admittedly, I have only read thefirst chapter, but it is
amazing.
So I'd love for people to, youcan share the name and I will
definitely in the links, I willhave links to the name of your
book, your website, everywherethat people can find you.
(35:31):
And also I'd love to link thelit hub article so that people
can get a taste for what thebook is like.
Cause I really think once they.
Read that first chapter.
They're going to want to readthe whole thing.
So yes, what is the name of thebook?
The
Sheila (35:44):
book is called all things edible, random and odd
essays on grief, love and food.
And I can tell you, I hope thisis okay to say if you know,
there's a book that came out acouple of years ago that was
very, very popular for very goodreason called crying in H Mart.
Yes.
Do you know this book?
Mm hmm.
Michelle's Honor.
Let me tell you the funny, Idon't know what to call this.
(36:05):
It's not exactly a coincidence,but it's an interesting little
tidbit.
I'll start by saying if youliked that book, I think you'll
like my book too because thething that they, that the both
books share is a central focuson a parent child relationship,
a troubled parent childrelationship, and the way that
they connect through food.
In Zahner's book, it's, it's hermother who is dying of cancer
(36:28):
and it's the way they cook theycook food together from her
mother's, you know, from, fromtheir culture.
And with mine, it's my father,as I've mentioned.
But the funny thing is that Iwas reading, I actually taught
Crying in H Mart to a graduatefood writing class.
At Chatham University where Iteach a couple years ago, and I
had not read the book before.
I knew I wanted to, but I hadn'tread it.
(36:50):
And my book was already undercontract and I'm reading
Michelle's book and it's amazingand I'm crying and everybody's
crying and it's just great.
And then I get to like the lastchapter of it and I learn that
Michelle's Honor won the sameglamor contest that I won.
No really.
I was the first I won it.
The, I won it the first timethey ever offered it.
(37:12):
And then she won it in like 2019or sport 18 or 19 and crying in
H Mart.
I, it came directly from theessay that won that.
That contest, which is justfeels like what?
Yeah.
That's wild.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So hers is much more like whatmy agent wanted.
Right?
Hers is much more of like thenovelistic story.
(37:32):
But I do think that they havetheir sort of cousins.
And you know, I love it if maybeI can send her a copy someday
that she would read it, but, youknow, she's a rock star.
So who knows?
Mandy (37:40):
That's incredible.
I love that story.
You should tell her the storyand then
Sheila (37:44):
I would love to, I, actually, I had hoped that maybe
she would blurb the book, butyou know, again, she really is a
rock star.
She's a, she's a musician.
So but there was no doing that,but maybe I can send her a gift
copy and just say, Hey, youknow, When you're in between
your tours, maybe you want tocrack, crack this open and have
a look, but.
Wow.
Yeah.
It's nice.
It's good to be in, in night.
It's like, it really feels goodto be able to point to a
wonderful book that I really didgenuinely love and say, my book
(38:08):
is a little like this.
Mandy (38:10):
So.
That's incredible.
And it helps that I'm sure a lotof listeners know that book.
So.
Yeah, I'm really excited foryou.
I'm, I think that just byreading what I've read of you, I
think that you have a real giftfor the way you say things.
I actually wanted to end thingswith a quote that is actually
quoted in your Lit Hub article,but you said, I write because I
(38:33):
want to continue my father, notcontain him.
And I, I just think that's sobeautiful.
And often I talk with guestshere and we talk about different
ways that they have processedtheir grief or move through
their grief and writingobviously as an outlet for many
people.
And sometimes people don't evenrealize how healing it can be.
And I love this idea ofcontinuing our loved ones
(38:56):
through our writing and
Sheila (38:59):
it's beautiful.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I also, I think I want to sayone thing to writers out there
My experience, you know, wasmany times in my writing life
between that moment of loss andnow I have said to myself, Oh my
gosh, like, am I ever going towrite anything other than this?
(39:19):
And I had this fear that I was Idon't know, you know, kind of
like in a rut or no one wants tohear these stories or, you know,
et cetera.
And it wasn't until fairlyrecently, maybe with the book,
this book's acceptance where Irealized it is fine to keep
writing about this.
Of course, I'm going to keepwriting about this.
(39:39):
What is more, what's moreformative than your relationship
with your parents?
And I will, I will write aboutthis for the rest of my life.
And so if you're out there andyou're writing about.
You know, your own loss andyou're feeling the way that I
did just stay in it.
Know that it's valuable.
You know, this is such a humanthing that we, unfortunately, we
(40:00):
all share this.
We're all going to lose someoneat some point.
And all of our stories about howto manage that and cope with it
and make a life from it are soimportant to hear and share.
So.
I love that
Mandy (40:15):
advice.
I, I've definitely been in thatheadspace before, where you
think people are so sick ofseeing articles and stories
about loss and grief and, youknow, the experiences that we've
had, but I, I love that advice.
Sheila (40:29):
There's very little that's more human and that
connects us more, you know,concretely.
Mandy (40:33):
One of the quotes that I, admire Cheryl Strayed for, she
is very open about saying mymother was the love of my life.
And I remember when I read thatand when I've heard her say
that, just feeling like, I don'tknow that I was brave enough to
put that out there just for fearof judgment of others, even
though it resonated so much withme.
(40:55):
Yeah.
And so.
Yeah, I think it's the samething.
We're like accepting that.
Yeah, this is what I want to sayto the world and that's okay.
And there are people to listento it and it can be around the
same themes.
Sheila (41:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The last essay in the book isabout my mother's death.
Which happened very recently.
She died in 2021, right afterthe book was accepted and as I
mentioned before, she had beenan active alcoholic.
Our, our relationship wastremendously strained, but When
she died of cancer in 2021, shehad had 14 years of sobriety
(41:32):
through AA, and our relationshiphad been, you know, transformed
through that.
And when she died, it was, itwas painful, but it was not the
same kind of devastation, partlybecause my mother lived a lot
longer than my father did.
So there wasn't the tragedy of,oh, she's so young.
She was, but she was 72.
(41:52):
But the difference I think forme is that we got to live out
our story together.
We got to stay in it and fightit out and grow and love each
other through, you know, allthese different moments in our
lives.
And so I, there are no questionmarks left in my mother, my life
(42:13):
with my mother, my relationshipwith my mother.
It's just pure feeling of.
I loved her and I miss her.
It's not the same as, as it waswith my father.
And I'm actually very gratefulthat I have now these two very
different experiences of grief.
And so all that just to say thatthe experience, that's a
spectrum of, of experience, youknow?
(42:34):
Yeah.
And I'm glad that I was able to,I'm sorry my mother died before
seeing this book, but I'm veryglad that I was able to, to
include her.
Every episode and interview onthe podcast is special to me,
but some just strike me a littledifferent.
Sheila's has been one of thosefor me, maybe because everyone
has memories of food thatreminds us of our loved ones.
(42:56):
And she's found a way to extractthose in her book.
Or maybe it's just the simplefact that our parents were
similar ages when they passed.
And we both went on to writeabout it.
But whatever it was, I hope youfound pieces of her story that
resonated with you as well.
Check the show notes to read anarticle with an excerpt of her
book and to find links where youcan purchase a copy of your own.
(43:16):
For today's journal prompt,write about a meal or a specific
food that reminds you of yourperson.
The taste, the smell, thememory, it conjures, whatever it
brings up for you.
Like Elise, let the writing leadyou in whatever direction it
takes.
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
(43:36):
And as always.
Does it remember grams?
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
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