May 8, 2024 • 43 mins
Elizabeth “Liz” O’Donnell is a steadfast infant loss advocate leading the charge in raising awareness and prevention of stillbirth and infant mortality. Her daughter, Aaliyah, was born still in 2020. Today, she runs a one-woman non-profit keeping her daughter’s spirit alive, supporting mothers and families across the country who experience the pain of losing a baby and advocating for legislation that could reduce the number of U.S. stillbirths.
Liz is also a Director of Awareness for PUSH for Empowered Pregnancy, a grassroots initiative that advocates for evidence-based, respectful, and equitable maternity care. Prior to her advocacy work, Liz was a dedicated D.C. Public Schools elementary math and science school teacher for 7 years.
In 2020, Liz was sent home from the hospital with only her daughter's footprints and baby blanket.. When her employer revoked her paid leave for her recovery, she shared her experience on social media in a post that went viral and launched her advocacy. Later, in 2021, the DC paid family leave legislation was amended to include stillbirth.
Inspired by an outpouring of support and motivated to keep her daughter’s spirit alive, Liz started Aaliyah in Action (AiA). The non-profit supports women and families following perinatal, neonatal or infant loss with self-care packages and bereavement support books. Liz has partnered with 50+ hospitals around the country (and counting) to provide curated self-care packages. More than 1,500 families have received AiA support packages in 40 states, Canada, Jamaica and the UK. AiA boxes contain items sourced from women and Black-owned businesses, the community her daughter would have been a part of.
A positive, energetic force who excels at community building, connection and empathy, Liz earned both a B.A. in Sociology and Psychology and an M.Ed in Elementary Education from The George Washington University. She lives in DC and is currently pursuing her Masters in Public Health back at GW.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mandy (00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to the Grief Trails Podcast.
I am your host, Amanda Kernighanfrom Remembergrams, a small
business dedicated to helpingyou support those in your life
experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or
grief support box.
Shipping within the U.
S.
is always free, and we treateach order with special care,
(00:21):
paying attention to everydetail.
It's hard to believe that it'salready the month of May and
that summer is just around thecorner.
If you didn't know, May isWomen's Health Awareness Month,
and it is also the month ofMother's Day.
As many listeners know, Mother'sDay can be difficult and
layered, complex, year afteryear, for so many who've
(00:43):
experienced loss, be that of achild or of a mother.
After recording this episode afew weeks ago, I thought May
would be the perfect time toshare Liz's story with you all,
one that will touch us as wethink of the approaching
Mother's Day and what that meansfor moms who've had similar
experiences as Liz, and as amonth to really focus on the
(01:05):
health of women, something Lizhelps advocate for in her work.
I'm delighted to introducetoday's guest, Elizabeth Liz
O'Donnell, a fierce advocate forwomen and families in raising
awareness of mental healthissues.
And prevention of stillbirth andinfant mortality.
She's the founder of anonprofit, Aaliyah in Action, in
(01:25):
honor of her daughter, thatyou'll hear more about in
today's episode, as well asdirector of awareness for PUSH
for Empowered Pregnancy, agrassroots initiative that
pushes for evidence basedrespectful and equitable
maternity care.
Join me as she walks us throughthe story of her and her
daughter, Aaliyah.
Liz (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me.
I mean, I'm really happy to behere and share my story and my
daughter's story.
I guess I would say this gotstarted probably right when
COVID started happening.
I exactly right.
All good things started withCOVID.
I was a first grade teacher atthe time and we were told to
(02:07):
pack up.
It'll be a couple weeks.
Thanks Then we'll be back.
We all know that didn't happen.
And around end of May, veryearly June, I found out that I
was pregnant, which wasdefinitely a surprise, but I had
felt great the whole time wewere winding down the school
year, getting ready for thesummer.
(02:28):
And that's, you know, very, veryexciting.
Despite all that was going onwith COVID.
So life definitely lookeddifferent.
Doctor appointments lookdifferent.
The lack of being able to hangout with friends and family was
tough at first, but I also thinkWhen I found out I was pregnant,
it really allowed me to bondwith my baby because it was, you
(02:51):
know, just us.
And you know, not many friendsand family around.
So it was a really beautifultime.
Was this
Mandy (02:59):
your first pregnancy?
Liz (03:01):
Yes, first pregnancy.
And it did come as a pretty bigshock because I was under the
impression from doctors that itwould be difficult to get
pregnant and that I wouldprobably need help in the future
when I was ready for that time.
So to find this out, You know,her father and I were like, Oh
my gosh, how did this happen?
(03:22):
But it was, it was exciting.
And I, at the end of the summerfound out that I was having a
girl and my mom was able tovisit.
And so I got all these balloonsthat said, it's a girl.
We did all that with my mom,which was great.
End of November, we had abeautiful baby shower.
It was very COVID friendly.
(03:43):
It was, it was awesome.
And not only was it awesome tocelebrate our daughter, it was
also the first time.
So many of our friends had seeneach other because of the
lockdown in a, in a safeenvironment where we could still
all be together.
So not only was it celebratingour baby, but it was also, you
know, just a big celebrationreally for everybody that hadn't
(04:05):
left their house in months.
And then just a few weeks afterthat, everything had changed.
Mandy (04:13):
How were you, the, from the time you found out you were
pregnant through to your babyshower, and you mentioned that
you spent a lot of time at homebecause it was COVID, were you
feeling okay through thepregnancy?
Did you have the typicalpregnancy that people imagine?
Liz (04:28):
Very typical.
I will actually, I guess maybelet me rephrase that.
I guess maybe atypical in that Iwas, I never had morning
sickness.
I always felt great.
My only big issue was that I wastired and always drinking water.
Those were my issues.
If that's what you want to callthem while pregnant.
Otherwise I felt wonderful.
(04:50):
I, Had never been healthier.
I was just so much more in tunewith myself and my body than I
had ever been.
And every doctor appointmentthat I went to, some of them,
her father could come, some ofthem not.
It was just depending on whatthe appointment was for, but all
good reports, all great reports,no issues, no blood sugar
(05:16):
issues, nothing like that.
Mandy (05:19):
And I imagine with it being COVID and being at home,
you kind of got that extrabenefit of being able to rest
and to sleep when your bodyneeded it and feel like you're
able to rest.
Give your pregnancy, you know,exactly what everyone wants to
be able to do is like payattention to your body and be
able to nurture yourself in thattime.
So almost like exactly indisguise.
Liz (05:42):
Right.
And I was teaching, you know, soI was teaching virtually and in
between, I would try to do aworkout class in between part of
the classes.
And then with the other ones, Iwould like take a 10 minute nap,
you know, to recharge.
And that never obviously wouldhave been able to happen if.
Life was normal or what it hadbeen before.
So I did really embrace thattime because I could really
(06:04):
craft it to what I wanted andwhat my body needed it to be.
Mandy (06:08):
Right.
So then you had your big babyshower and everyone got together
and then what changed in yourpregnancy?
It was right
Liz (06:19):
after Thanksgiving.
On Thanksgiving Day, I noticedAaliyah had been moving a lot,
and I thought that she wasmatching my energy because it
was I was back home seeingfamily for the first time in a
while.
It's Thanksgiving, which, Is wasis my favorite holiday, and I
didn't really think anything ofit.
(06:40):
I still felt great.
And again, we had every doctorappointment telling us that
everything is amazing.
This is so great.
Couple days later, I wasactually in Jersey visiting my
family for Thanksgiving, cameback down to D.
C.
Decorating the house forChristmas.
And I just kind of realized Ihaven't felt her move today.
(07:01):
And so I thought, okay, maybeit's because I've just been
decorating the house trying toget everything in order.
So I sat down, I did everythingthat, you know, Google and
TikTok tells you to do, havesome sugar, you know, jump
around a little bit, dosomething, move your body to
kind of jolt them and nothingwas happening.
So I texted my doula.
(07:22):
I was very fortunate to have adoula, a very big doula advocate
as well, because she encouragedme to go to the hospital, get
checked out.
It'll probably be nothing.
But better safe than sorry.
And here I was the whole timethinking, Oh my gosh, it's still
COVID, right?
I don't want to bother thepeople at the hospital.
(07:45):
Like they don't want some firsttime mom coming up here.
Like, I think something is wrongwhen my chart shows that
everything has been great.
Mandy (07:53):
So
Liz (07:53):
I was a little hesitant at first, but good thing I went.
Mandy (07:58):
Yeah.
Was your partner there with youwhen this was happening?
Did they know that?
Liz (08:06):
So Alia's father and I don't live together and he is a
first responder.
And so he had work the next dayand I didn't even want to bother
him because first responders,they wake up super duper early.
If you know anything about thatlife, he's up at four and this,
by the time this all happened,it was around 11 at night.
(08:27):
And so I said, you know, I'lltell him about it tomorrow and
he's going to roll his eyes atme, you know, for freaking out
about nothing and looking backat that now, I know that that
was a huge mistake, but again, Ithought, I honestly thought that
I was just.
Kind of crazy, honestly, becausethen I was kind of worrying.
(08:48):
I was like, no, you're justgetting freaked out
Mandy (08:50):
about nothing.
There's nothing wrong, right?
It's so common I think women inour society to second guess
ourselves and our intuition I Ican say I think almost every
woman who's ever been pregnanthas probably had moments where
you think I don't think I feltthe baby move and then you think
Of course, like, of courseeverything is fine, right?
(09:12):
You talk yourself out of it.
So I can totally see how you'dbe in this space thinking, I am
going crazy.
Like, this is so silly and sostupid and everything is fine.
Exactly that.
And it had been such a
Liz (09:25):
busy few days.
You know, too, I was thinkingmaybe she's tired like me, you
know, I'm tired.
We've been up and down, youknow, from Jersey to DC
decorating, cooking, all thisstuff.
So to me, it just made sensethat, okay, you know, maybe
we're just having an off daywhen I got to the hospital and
the nurse.
(09:45):
You know, could not find aheartbeat and said there was
something wrong with themachine.
I could just tell with the waythat she looked.
I still, I still didn't click,but I just remember, and I
obviously think about this nowall the time.
That's the part of grief.
I, Looking at it now, I think Iknew, but I was just kind of
confused in those moments.
(10:07):
And then when they broughtanother machine in and one of
the midwives, I was working withthe midwives, the hospital that
I was at, you know, I just, I, Iknew And then I was like, Oh my
gosh, I came here alone.
I didn't tell her dad, nobodyknows I'm here.
I left my dog at home alone.
I literally walked right out ofthe house past, I'd already had
(10:29):
the hospital bag ready to go.
I'm a very organized person, soeverything is all lined up,
ready to go.
I walked past all of it thinkingI'll be back in 20 minutes, 30
minutes only to not come backfor.
Three days after I walked out ofmy house and came back into my
house no longer pregnant.
So That was I definitely wentinto shock and I think
(10:55):
Reflecting on my grief.
My grief is not Out loud if thatmakes sense.
My grief is I'm in shock.
I don't Talk.
I don't move.
I just kind of sit there and I'mthinking that is grief for me is
a lot of thinking.
And the whole time I was, youknow, making phone calls to
(11:17):
obviously get her father to thehospital quickly.
And my mom's got to get on atrain and my best friend needs
to come down.
I was just thinking of, okay,what are, what do I need to do
to get through this?
And I'll deal with the rest ofit after.
What do I need to do
Mandy (11:32):
right now?
Oh, yeah.
I think that's a very commonexperience to go through a
checklist because it helps youto keep functioning.
If you have a checklist to getthrough, then you have something
that you can focus on where thatisn't the grief itself.
Yeah.
And I was doing
Liz (11:47):
that the whole time.
I was like, let me think of achecklist for everything just so
I don't have to think about whatis happening to me in this
moment.
Mandy (11:54):
Right.
Was anyone able to get therethat night or did you spend that
first night alone?
Oh,
Liz (12:00):
yeah.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Her father was there.
I mean, within 20 minutesbecause, you know he, we, we
live in DC, so, you know, he wasthere very quickly and my mom
was there first thing the nextmorning, got on the first train
that she could.
So, you know, that, and my bestfriend and my best friend's mom
came down with her so that shewasn't alone, which I appreciate
(12:20):
more than.
Cause again, we're still in thatCOVID time, you know, it's not
as bad as it was, but it wasn'tgreat.
It was scary to not be able tohave my mom in the hospital room
with me.
It was only her father and ourdoula, but you know, I, I kind
of think about it now.
(12:40):
If we didn't have our doula withus, I, we would have been a
mess.
Like she really kept ustogether, which I am forever,
forever grateful for because thetwo of us just sat.
And they're, you know, we'rebeing talked up for midwives,
OBs have to come in, we've gotnurses, there's a social worker.
And the two of us, I think ourgrief in a lot of ways is very
(13:03):
similar in that we're makingthose checklists, we're shutting
down, we just kind of listen,take it all in and don't say
much.
So the two of us are justsitting there like, you know,
kind of unresponsive when weneed to be making all these
decisions.
So I'm very grateful for mydoula.
But those three days I And thisis another thing that I always
(13:23):
go back and forth with, but inthe, during the time that it
happened, it was the bestdecision for me.
I wanted to try to stick with mybirth plan.
We had already done all thatstuff.
I had planned on having anunmedicated birth and I, because
it was another thing when thishappens to you, you have lost
all control.
(13:43):
And that for me, before Aaliyahwas very hard.
During those moments was evenharder, and to this day it's
still hard.
And so I just wanted to grab allthe control that I could.
And I tried, but after two daysI said, Okay, maybe this is not
healthy for me.
It's not healthy for her fatherto watch.
(14:04):
It's not good.
Like, let's go home.
And I delivered Aaliyah December1st, 2020.
About five, I forget the exacttime, five, something in the
morning, and then I had to go tosurgery after which was kind of
scary.
I'd never had surgery before, sonot only did I Just endure a
(14:29):
stillbirth.
I then had to go to surgery.
And after that, I just, herfather and I looked at each
other.
We were like, we got to get outof here.
And I said, I can't get out ofhere unless I can walk.
They said, if you can walk andproved us that you can walk
without help, we'll let you gotoday.
And so I had him get me up inthat room.
(14:49):
I was like, we got to get mewalking.
We got to do anything.
I got to get out of here.
And we did.
We did it.
We were out that day.
Yeah.
And since then, walking out ofthat hospital room, they did not
do anything to accommodate usleaving in terms of, you know,
(15:09):
going out a back door or nothaving to look at other people
in labor or hear people in laboror hear a baby cry as we were
walking out.
We just walked out of that roomand into an elevator.
And as soon as we walkeddownstairs, there was a woman in
labor going into the elevator.
And I was just like, okay, I gotto go.
(15:31):
And that really taking all ofthat in, in those first few
moments after being able to walkagain, leaving not pregnant when
I walked in pregnant and thenjust seeing what the world
looked like after this, oh mygosh, it just, it changed
everything,
Mandy (15:49):
going back to the experience of having to give
birth.
Did the team, you said that youdid need surgery after, did you
end up having time with Aaliyahbefore you had to go into
surgery?
Yes.
Liz (16:04):
Given the time that I delivered her, they had their
shift change.
So I had to wait for surgery andthat was our time that we could
spend with her.
Initially, we both, I didn'tknow what to expect.
I, I don't blame the hospitalfor this at all because I've
learned in this journey thatit's pretty much everywhere.
(16:25):
Nobody knows how to talk to youabout it.
What your baby looks like, whatyou can do, what you can't do.
We had initially said, you know,we'll say hi and then we're
done.
Cause I just, I couldn't bearlike having to hold my dead
child.
My doula again, talked to us.
We, we also said no pictures atfirst.
(16:48):
I am so grateful that I wasasked, we were asked several
times because we ended upchanging our mind, which.
Thank God for that.
Sometimes people are not askedseveral times and then they have
huge regrets later.
So that's a very important.
If you are working with peoplein this space, please ask
questions, sentimental or memorymaking questions.
(17:10):
Please ask them several timesbecause the answer might change
my little PSA for that.
But I was very grateful to havethese pictures with her.
My doula took them and I said,I'm not ready, for them now.
She said, no, no problem.
Whenever you're ready for them,let me know.
Of course, that first night thatI was home, I immediately texted
(17:31):
her.
I said, okay, I'm ready forthem.
But.
I feel like I was still in suchshock.
I don't really remember.
I don't really remember theentire time in the hospital.
I sometimes feel, and I look atthe pictures and I'm like, was I
ever even there?
Like I, I felt like it was just,I blacked out for three days.
So I don't really remember thetime as much as I wish I did,
(17:55):
which is why I'm so grateful forthose pictures.
Mandy (17:58):
Yeah.
And for your doula, not everyonegets a doula.
And did your doula have anytraining or experience with
stillbirth and this kind of lossso that she was more prepared to
guide you through theexperience?
Liz (18:15):
Yeah.
She's a full spectrum doula.
And I think that I'm happy thatyou asked that because again,
not everybody that has a doulahas one that knows what to do
and knows how to advocate inthose moments.
And of course that's notsomething that you want to even
think about when hiring a doula,but as long as they are a full
(18:35):
spectrum doula, then yes, theyhave that training.
And again, so grateful for thatbecause she guided us through
and sometimes I do think about,oh my gosh, if she wasn't there,
maybe we wouldn't have pictures.
She wasn't there, maybe I wouldhave just looked at Aaliyah and
not have held her, because Ididn't know what to do.
(18:56):
And as great as the staff was,it's hard to talk to a parent
that has just had their worldjust completely pulled out from
under them.
So to have someone there incharge on my team was huge.
Mandy (19:12):
I think that's such helpful information for other
people.
Parents or will be parents inthe future.
I've only heard of birth doulasbut I hadn't ever heard the term
full spectrum doula.
So I think that's really helpfulfor people to know when they are
searching out a doula that, thatmight be a skill set that they
want to have in the doula thatthey choose.
Liz (19:33):
Because another element that is really tough to think
about, but for women that aregiven life limiting diagnosis or
something like that for theirbaby and making choices, you
want someone that is going toexplain them to you, support
you.
And that's that full spectrum,you know, they're with you from
day one.
The start of your pregnancyuntil the end of it, no matter
(19:56):
how that looks,
Mandy (19:58):
did she provide you support following everything and
in the aftermath of your green?
Yes.
Liz (20:06):
Yes.
Some of my favorite books shesent to us definitely put me in
contact with some other peoplethat might be helpful.
And this was another thing aboutthe hospital, nobody tells you
that even though your baby isnot leaving with you, your body
does not know that.
And so, you know, nobody told methat the lactation would be
(20:27):
occurring.
I just assumed that it wouldn'tbecause surely my body knows
that there's nobody to feedhere.
Nope, not true at all.
So you know, She set us up withthe lactation consultant to come
to the house to help guide methrough that because I was like,
well now, like, what do I do?
Why didn't nobody tell me?
And that's a whole nother levelof trauma as well.
(20:49):
So she definitely helped.
Yeah.
Even afterwards as well.
Mandy (20:55):
Did the hospital provide you with any resources when you
left?
Liz (20:59):
We had the little memory box, which I love now did not
look at it for a very long time.
So in the moment that was notvery helpful because I, I did
not want to look at anything inthere.
I remember being given just someprintout of a bunch of doctor's
(21:20):
names.
But that was it.
And it, you know, it looked likevery old and I was like, do I
even want to call these people?
I don't even want to tellanybody that this happened to
me.
I don't know what I want to do.
I had seen, you know, atherapist before, randomly at
times, but nothing for this.
So while it was wellintentioned, you know, to me it
(21:43):
was just a piece of paper with abunch of people's names on it
that I've never even called.
Mandy (21:47):
Yeah.
You know.
I think over and over again, Italk to people who have stories
and our society, like ourmedical system does such a great
job with certain things, butloss seems to be one of those
things that really falls throughthe cracks every time.
And whether that's becausepeople don't know how to talk
(22:08):
about it or because there aren'tthe resources out there or
whatever the reason is, it'sjust such a huge gap in the
system.
And it's so sad that that is thereality for so many people.
And I'm so glad that you hadsomeone who was connected to
resources who could connect withher.
Liz (22:24):
Well, and I think that that treatment, realizing that I have
the support and resources, if itwas not for that person, I would
not have known about them.
Why am I in the hospital?
I'm leaving with.
Really no help.
That's kind of what put me onthis new path in life because I
(22:46):
saw the differences and I hadnever been in a position where I
had to think about loss likethat and it never crossed my
mind.
I wasn't educated on it.
And now it's the only thing Italk about really, because I
saw, I saw that gap in care forthe person that needed to walk
(23:07):
out that door and into a worldthat did not look the same as
when I had walked into thehospital.
Mandy (23:13):
And speaking of walking out of the world in this new
space and you had to go backhome and I'm assuming you had
all of your gifts from your babyshower there and you said your
hospital bags were packed.
I mean, just the experience Iimagine walking back into your
home was traumatic.
Liz (23:34):
Yes, I stayed with my mom at the hotel she was staying at.
Because that first night, causeI also, since I had had surgery
and everything, I needed to bewatched and because I could not
spend time with my mom while Iwas in the hospital, I said,
okay, this first night that I'mout, let me stay with her.
(23:57):
Just you know, be with, I mean,you know, if, if you're able to
be with your mother aftersomething like this, then
that's, that's important.
Again, I know that noteverybody.
Has that though, and so I amvery mindful of that, but I just
knew I needed to be with my momand When I did go back home, I
wanted to go by myself, whichwas the best decision for me.
(24:21):
Of course, you know, friends,her father, my mom, you know,
wanted to go with me.
I said, no,
Mandy (24:27):
something
Liz (24:27):
I want to do on my own.
My friend brought my dog back.
She had picked him up gotten inthe house to take him for a few
days.
I said, nope, I just want to bewith Leo in my home alone.
I got to figure this out.
It was really hard though,because you know, for baby
showers, it's.
You know, the whole bring athing of diapers for a raffle
(24:48):
ticket and stuff.
So I had the whole hallway herelined with every size diaper you
could imagine.
And I had just a week beforethat, before leaving for
Thanksgiving, had washed all theclothes, finished up the
nursery, everything was done.
(25:08):
And I just kind of sat in therethat first night, asked my doula
for the pictures of And I would,I, you know, it's so surreal and
I think a lot of people who havesuffered a loss, not necessarily
this form of loss.
You just kind of sit there andyou just ask yourself, how did
this happen?
(25:28):
How did I get here?
What just happened these pastthree days?
That's all I could not wrap myhead around.
I was just here decorating thishouse for Christmas.
Thinking I was going to be gonefor 20 minutes, and now all of a
sudden, at this time, it'sDecember 2nd, I left on November
28th, you know, how, what isgoing on, and what on earth am I
(25:51):
going to do next?
Like I couldn't wrap my headaround that at the time,
Mandy (25:57):
correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard for this kind of
loss that often comes with,because it was your body and
this happened and there's oftenno answer about why this
happened or there's no way thatit could have been prevented.
But I, I've heard that womenoften go through this period of
really.
Self-criticism or self Oh yeah.
(26:18):
You know, trying to think oflike, why did this happen to my
baby?
Mm-Hmm.
And was it anything that I did?
And I think that's like a verynormal response as a mom, but
also incredibly painful and addsa layer of grief that isn't
always there with every kind ofloss, but it's different.
Correct.
'cause it was your own body andyou know, you were growing your
daughter inside of you.
(26:38):
So did you have any of thatguilt?
Liz (26:43):
Initially, I did.
Yes, we were offered the optionof an autopsy, but the doctor
said You know, we kind of lookedher over and everything looks
fine.
So if you do choose an autopsy,we don't think we're going to be
able to tell you anything.
We don't think anything's goingto show up.
They said, usually we can tellsometimes this just happens,
(27:06):
which to me was like, what doyou mean?
Sometimes this just happens.
You know, at that time I couldnot, again, couldn't wrap my
head around it.
Luckily, because I had been, youknow, very involved in speaking
out with some of my treatmentfor my employer after having to
go back to work, and now all ofa sudden just being in this.
This baby loss community spacewas introduced to a fabulous
(27:30):
group of, of stillbirth moms.
And when I started to share someof the information that was
given to me post Aaliyah, theygave me resources to try to find
an answer.
And luckily due to an amazingplacental pathologist, we were
able to get an answer not longafter So I think the fact that I
was able to get an answerrelatively quickly greatly
(27:55):
helped me just kind ofunderstand everything and I'm
always going to think part of itwas my fault.
I think that's just natural.
I will never be able to let thatgo, but it is helpful to know
that.
Look, this is what happened.
It may have been preventable.
We'll never know for sure, butthat's something I'm working on
(28:15):
post Aleah.
It is, you know, little thingsthat should have been checked or
looked at that were not, couldhave saved my child's life if a
plan was in place, which is veryfrustrating now to know.
But Part of my grief journey ismaking sure that other people
don't go through this if it canbe prevented and supporting
people when it's too late.
(28:37):
And so, you know, it's, it'skind of given me a, an answer,
but it's still very tough everyday.
Mandy (28:44):
Absolutely.
But I think.
That in and of itself is alittle bit of a gift to know
that there was an identifiablereason.
Yes.
Because so many people don't getthat, you know, who just never
know what happened.
Oh my
Liz (28:58):
gosh, you're totally right.
And I've spoken to a lot ofmothers that happened, you know,
this happened 20, 30 years ago.
There's, I mean, people juststarted finding out and we just
now have the technology to findout what happened with.
Stillbirth, and I cannot imaginewhere I would be or what I would
(29:18):
be doing now if I didn't havethose answers so quickly.
I think that helped me in mygrief journey a lot.
Mandy (29:25):
And this, for you, all happened right around the
holidays.
So Thanksgiving, it justhappened, Christmas was coming,
I don't know if you celebrateChristmas or holidays, but I do.
I mean, how, how did you getthrough the holidays and how has
it impacted your holidays sincethen?
Liz (29:44):
So the first Christmas which was just, you know, less
than 20 minutes after, you know,everything happened.
I decided to just stay at home.
Her father was over.
We just had something with us.
Of course, I had already gottenall these presents and all this
stuff and, you know, had toreturn a lot of it, which was
(30:05):
its own you know, experience inand of itself, but we just had a
quiet night and that was that.
The holidays for me, I'm a bigholiday person.
My home is decorated to thenines.
I just love cooking.
I cook everything.
I do everything traditionalbubble ball, all that stuff.
And it has been difficult to dothat post Aaliyah, but it's
(30:31):
still important.
Like, so for me, the last thingI did while pregnant was
decorate my house for Christmas.
So.
I'm kind of happy in a way thatthat's the last thing I did
because now it's like mytradition with Aaliyah, you
know, that was the last thing wedid together.
Same thing with Thanksgiving.
(30:52):
I had a great Thanksgiving withfamily, cooked the whole dinner,
all that stuff while I waspregnant.
That was like, you know, thesecond to last thing we did in
all honesty.
So I think for me, while, whileholidays of course can be very
complicated and and actually.
Aaliyah's first anniversary, Ihad COVID, so I was kind of
happy about that because nobodycould visit me.
(31:14):
So I had Thanksgiving here aloneand, you know, then her birthday
came and went and nobody couldcome visit me cause I had COVID.
So I was, you know, I hate that.
thing.
I was happy about that.
But, you know, for me, it waslike, okay, this is good.
Cause I could be alone.
I could feel what I wanted tofeel.
(31:35):
I didn't have to act.
I didn't have to put on a smileor talk about being sad, all
that stuff.
So holidays, I say all that tosay holidays are complicated,
but the fact that I had some ofthe best days of my life.
Right before this all happened,kind of helps a little bit,
helps a little bit.
Mandy (31:56):
I love that perspective of that being the last thing
they did together and being ableto carry that forward into, you
know, the future holidays thatyou have in front of you.
And I know that holidays for allof us who have been through
grief.
Are, are complicated and someare harder than others and some
years are harder than others andall of that is totally normal
and and acceptable.
(32:17):
You know, there's no rules aboutit or anything, but it's, it's
always interesting to heardifferent perspectives.
So, after all of this happened,we're still in COVID times.
Did you go back to work at anypoint after the loss or how was
that for you?
Liz (32:35):
Yeah.
So it was, it's challengingbecause I, you know, being a
teacher, I had saved up all thisleave.
I had my leave approved for, youknow, maternity leave and all
that.
And, you know, I was so nervousabout having to tell my
employer.
What happened or that I wassupposed to be out for, she was
(32:56):
due end of January.
So I was supposed to be out forthe whole rest of the school
year.
Mandy (33:00):
And
Liz (33:00):
so I was saying, you know, I'm just going to take my six
weeks and then I'm actuallygoing to be coming back.
So at that point I was feelingterrible for the long term sub
that they had gotten me becauseit's like, Oh, actually, I'm
sorry, I'm going to need my jobback.
I just felt so terrible aboutthat.
And you know, at the same time,of course, I'm focusing on
everything else other than.
(33:20):
Me and how I'm feeling.
Right.
So, you know, I explained whathappened and they, you know,
immediately told me that myleave was going to be revoked
because I could not provide abirth certificate.
And you know, you can take sickleave if you want, but come back
to work.
So I thought surely someone isjust confused with what I'm
saying and maybe doesn'tunderstand what a still birth
(33:42):
is, or that I still gave birthand then I had surgery and I
hemorrhaged and all this stuffand I can't really walk that
well.
Mandy (33:48):
Yeah.
Liz (33:51):
Oh yeah.
Can't forget that.
Yeah.
All of, all of these things forthe worst perfect storm and was
told that I had to go back towork.
So to make a long story shortfor Washington DC, I've been
able to get some laws changedthat protect stillbirth parents
to still have their paid familyleave after stillbirth and
(34:11):
seeing that a school system hadtreated me like that after all
I've given to them for years.
I knew I needed to walk awayfrom it, which was its own grief
journey because my whole life, Ihad wanted to be a teacher since
I was a little girl playing, youknow, made me hold basement into
(34:31):
a school.
I was a teacher since I wasthree as far as I was concerned.
So to have to walk away from aprofession that I loved, still
love felt like a whole anotherdepth.
Mandy (34:45):
Yeah.
Liz (34:46):
And I was so frustrating because I had just been treated
with respect and my daughter'slife treated with respect.
I would not be on this podcastright now.
I would probably be teachingmath.
Right,
Mandy (35:00):
it's
Liz (35:02):
challenging.
And I think sometimes I try mybest to just not think about it
because first I lost Aaliyah andthen I made a choice to walk
away from my career, but it's achoice I had to make because I.
Was trying to respect myself themost I could despite everything
that had just happened to me.
(35:22):
So that was very, verychallenging at the time.
Mandy (35:26):
I, you know Bereavement, the way that it is not
acknowledged and respected inany workplace.
I mean, I very rarely do I heara guest say that their employer
was really great about it andsuper flexible with them.
Often it's the opposite.
Like, you're a story whereyou're asked to come back really
(35:48):
quickly.
You have to deplete any vacationtime you have if you want to
have any time off.
That's exactly what I did.
And it's just awful.
I, and, you know, someone elsecompared it and says, you know,
as we begin life.
We're often given 12 weeks, butas we're ending a life, you're
given three days, if not, andyeah, the whole thing infuriates
(36:09):
me, and I have definitelymentioned this before, but I
just, I would love to see thatchange, and I love that you are
involved in advocacy work andtrying to get laws changed to
that effect, because what a hugebenefit that is to future
parents who are going to be inthat position, as much as we
wish no one else would have togo through that.
There will be more where youare.
(36:29):
to know that you've given themthe gift of some respect from
their employer is huge.
Liz (36:35):
Absolutely.
And, and, you know, with thewhole family leave, that was
changed in October of 2021.
But when I went public with mystory, the district had enacted
an emergency bereavement bill,which still is still in place.
And it's for any parent thatloses a child under the age of
(36:55):
21, two weeks of leave.
And then in stillbirth waseventually added to the paid
family leave.
So it does give me some Comfortto know me sharing my story has
not only helped stillbirthparents, but any parents that
loses a child, you know, under21, but still giving those days
(37:17):
that are so needed.
And of course we know that twoweeks is not enough, but it's
better than three.
So to know that that is still inplace for parents.
Is, has been, you know, verycomforting to me.
Mandy (37:31):
Wow.
So you left teaching.
Where has life taken you sincethat time?
What have you done aside fromthis advocacy around policy?
What else are you doing in thisspace?
So
Liz (37:44):
I decided to support families that have been, you
know, I say forced to walk thisgrief journey.
And I started a nonprofit calledAaliyah in action.
And we provide self carepackages to families after any
form of perinatal or neonatalloss.
So we have a package and then wehave support books, a range of
(38:07):
them that are given depending onthe family's situation.
We partner with hospitals.
And you wait, we ship them out.
So if anyone's listening, weship them out to anyone who
requests one, but we partnerwith hospitals, which is
especially important to me sothat when you walk out of that
hospital and the world looksdifferent.
(38:28):
You have a package of justlittle self care items that
someone else that has walkedthat same walk knows what you're
thinking in these moments andknows how treacherous it is and
knows that when you are on thecouch crying all day, you might
need some lip balm.
You might need a little facemask.
You might want to go shower witha beautiful aromatherapy shower
(38:52):
steamer just to make you feelsomething
Mandy (38:55):
when
Liz (38:55):
you feel so numb.
And that is what the start.
Of the grief journey looks likefor a lot of us lost parents,
I'm not going to say it getsbetter down the road, but I
think when you set yourself upwith little supports like that,
it helps the journey not be sorocky in those moments.
(39:18):
Next coming months to years, andI want everyone to feel
supported after experiencingthis because you feel alone.
You feel like everyone's staringat you.
You feel like this has nothappened to anybody else.
And sadly, that's just not true.
It's happened to a lot ofpeople.
Mandy (39:35):
I love it.
That you're working withhospitals because I think that
just just even theacknowledgement of what somebody
is going through and whatthey're facing as they leave the
hospital because it doesn't endwhen you leave the hospital.
That's not really the beginningof this.
And so to be able to be givensomething to say, you know, we
know you're walking into a newphase and recognize that is is
(39:58):
incredible.
Liz (40:00):
Yeah, and I, I also have no cost resources on there cause
there, there are really greatresources out there, but I did
not leave the hospital knowingabout them.
I had to search for them on myown.
And another level of trauma isjust having to type into the
search bar.
stillbirth support resources,what to do when your baby dies.
(40:22):
Who do I talk to?
Nobody wants to type that stuff.
And so we have a resource cardin there that has everything you
need straight down to supportiveInstagram accounts so that you
don't have to type.
Certain things into that searchbar.
I'm just telling you, Hey, thesepeople are great.
You might want to take a look attheir page for support.
You don't have to go looking forit.
(40:43):
It's all right here for you to,you know, pick and choose
whatever fits best for you.
But you know, I think it's theteacher in me giving options,
giving people options and, youknow, just lots of different
avenues for them to find successin this grief journey.
Has been my, my mission and justmy, It's my job as Aaliyah's mom
(41:05):
to do it, that's, that's likethe easiest way I can say it
like that.
It is my job.
It keeps me up at night.
It keeps me busy just like shewould.
So to see this organizationgrow, you know, at first I
thought maybe just a fewhospitals in D.
C.
would be interested and nowwe're approaching 60.
So definitely not what I hadenvisioned, but Certainly, it
(41:28):
shows how much it's needed.
And I'm happy to provide forfamilies like us because it
feels like you are alone, butyou are not.
Mandy (41:38):
Wow.
That's incredible.
And I hope it continues to growacross the country because
there, there is such a huge needand it's not being filled right
now.
And so, you know, as, as much asthis is an awful, awful
experience, you know, I'm soglad that you're using it to
help other parents who.
And if people are interested infinding out more about your
(42:03):
organization, how can they dothat?
Where can they find you?
So
Liz (42:07):
www.
AaliyahInAction.
org and Aaliyah is spelled A A LI Y A H.
And also on social media, it'sjust at AaliyahInAction.
We are a nonprofit and it's beena journey.
I had no idea how to, how tostart this before, but I have
(42:27):
learned so much and I am sohappy to support families.
So, you know, please reach outif you are looking for support
because we will get you apackage if you need one.
Mandy (42:38):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and feel
empowered to reach out to Liz ifyou've been through a stillbirth
or would like resources forsomeone who has.
If you would like to know ifyour local hospital is
participating in Aaliyah inAction by providing these self
care packages, her contactinformation will be in the show
notes.
Thank you so much for listening.
(42:58):
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it, andas always, visit RememberGrams
anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you, and have a wonderfulday.
Hello, and welcome back to the Grief Trails Podcast.
I am your host, Amanda Kernighanfrom Remembergrams, a small
business dedicated to helpingyou support those in your life
experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or
grief support box.
Shipping within the U.
S.
is always free, and we treateach order with special care,
(00:21):
paying attention to everydetail.
It's hard to believe that it'salready the month of May and
that summer is just around thecorner.
If you didn't know, May isWomen's Health Awareness Month,
and it is also the month ofMother's Day.
As many listeners know, Mother'sDay can be difficult and
layered, complex, year afteryear, for so many who've
(00:43):
experienced loss, be that of achild or of a mother.
After recording this episode afew weeks ago, I thought May
would be the perfect time toshare Liz's story with you all,
one that will touch us as wethink of the approaching
Mother's Day and what that meansfor moms who've had similar
experiences as Liz, and as amonth to really focus on the
(01:05):
health of women, something Lizhelps advocate for in her work.
I'm delighted to introducetoday's guest, Elizabeth Liz
O'Donnell, a fierce advocate forwomen and families in raising
awareness of mental healthissues.
And prevention of stillbirth andinfant mortality.
She's the founder of anonprofit, Aaliyah in Action, in
(01:25):
honor of her daughter, thatyou'll hear more about in
today's episode, as well asdirector of awareness for PUSH
for Empowered Pregnancy, agrassroots initiative that
pushes for evidence basedrespectful and equitable
maternity care.
Join me as she walks us throughthe story of her and her
daughter, Aaliyah.
Liz (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me.
I mean, I'm really happy to behere and share my story and my
daughter's story.
I guess I would say this gotstarted probably right when
COVID started happening.
I exactly right.
All good things started withCOVID.
I was a first grade teacher atthe time and we were told to
(02:07):
pack up.
It'll be a couple weeks.
Thanks Then we'll be back.
We all know that didn't happen.
And around end of May, veryearly June, I found out that I
was pregnant, which wasdefinitely a surprise, but I had
felt great the whole time wewere winding down the school
year, getting ready for thesummer.
(02:28):
And that's, you know, very, veryexciting.
Despite all that was going onwith COVID.
So life definitely lookeddifferent.
Doctor appointments lookdifferent.
The lack of being able to hangout with friends and family was
tough at first, but I also thinkWhen I found out I was pregnant,
it really allowed me to bondwith my baby because it was, you
(02:51):
know, just us.
And you know, not many friendsand family around.
So it was a really beautifultime.
Was this
Mandy (02:59):
your first pregnancy?
Liz (03:01):
Yes, first pregnancy.
And it did come as a pretty bigshock because I was under the
impression from doctors that itwould be difficult to get
pregnant and that I wouldprobably need help in the future
when I was ready for that time.
So to find this out, You know,her father and I were like, Oh
my gosh, how did this happen?
(03:22):
But it was, it was exciting.
And I, at the end of the summerfound out that I was having a
girl and my mom was able tovisit.
And so I got all these balloonsthat said, it's a girl.
We did all that with my mom,which was great.
End of November, we had abeautiful baby shower.
It was very COVID friendly.
(03:43):
It was, it was awesome.
And not only was it awesome tocelebrate our daughter, it was
also the first time.
So many of our friends had seeneach other because of the
lockdown in a, in a safeenvironment where we could still
all be together.
So not only was it celebratingour baby, but it was also, you
know, just a big celebrationreally for everybody that hadn't
(04:05):
left their house in months.
And then just a few weeks afterthat, everything had changed.
Mandy (04:13):
How were you, the, from the time you found out you were
pregnant through to your babyshower, and you mentioned that
you spent a lot of time at homebecause it was COVID, were you
feeling okay through thepregnancy?
Did you have the typicalpregnancy that people imagine?
Liz (04:28):
Very typical.
I will actually, I guess maybelet me rephrase that.
I guess maybe atypical in that Iwas, I never had morning
sickness.
I always felt great.
My only big issue was that I wastired and always drinking water.
Those were my issues.
If that's what you want to callthem while pregnant.
Otherwise I felt wonderful.
(04:50):
I, Had never been healthier.
I was just so much more in tunewith myself and my body than I
had ever been.
And every doctor appointmentthat I went to, some of them,
her father could come, some ofthem not.
It was just depending on whatthe appointment was for, but all
good reports, all great reports,no issues, no blood sugar
(05:16):
issues, nothing like that.
Mandy (05:19):
And I imagine with it being COVID and being at home,
you kind of got that extrabenefit of being able to rest
and to sleep when your bodyneeded it and feel like you're
able to rest.
Give your pregnancy, you know,exactly what everyone wants to
be able to do is like payattention to your body and be
able to nurture yourself in thattime.
So almost like exactly indisguise.
Liz (05:42):
Right.
And I was teaching, you know, soI was teaching virtually and in
between, I would try to do aworkout class in between part of
the classes.
And then with the other ones, Iwould like take a 10 minute nap,
you know, to recharge.
And that never obviously wouldhave been able to happen if.
Life was normal or what it hadbeen before.
So I did really embrace thattime because I could really
(06:04):
craft it to what I wanted andwhat my body needed it to be.
Mandy (06:08):
Right.
So then you had your big babyshower and everyone got together
and then what changed in yourpregnancy?
It was right
Liz (06:19):
after Thanksgiving.
On Thanksgiving Day, I noticedAaliyah had been moving a lot,
and I thought that she wasmatching my energy because it
was I was back home seeingfamily for the first time in a
while.
It's Thanksgiving, which, Is wasis my favorite holiday, and I
didn't really think anything ofit.
(06:40):
I still felt great.
And again, we had every doctorappointment telling us that
everything is amazing.
This is so great.
Couple days later, I wasactually in Jersey visiting my
family for Thanksgiving, cameback down to D.
C.
Decorating the house forChristmas.
And I just kind of realized Ihaven't felt her move today.
(07:01):
And so I thought, okay, maybeit's because I've just been
decorating the house trying toget everything in order.
So I sat down, I did everythingthat, you know, Google and
TikTok tells you to do, havesome sugar, you know, jump
around a little bit, dosomething, move your body to
kind of jolt them and nothingwas happening.
So I texted my doula.
(07:22):
I was very fortunate to have adoula, a very big doula advocate
as well, because she encouragedme to go to the hospital, get
checked out.
It'll probably be nothing.
But better safe than sorry.
And here I was the whole timethinking, Oh my gosh, it's still
COVID, right?
I don't want to bother thepeople at the hospital.
(07:45):
Like they don't want some firsttime mom coming up here.
Like, I think something is wrongwhen my chart shows that
everything has been great.
Mandy (07:53):
So
Liz (07:53):
I was a little hesitant at first, but good thing I went.
Mandy (07:58):
Yeah.
Was your partner there with youwhen this was happening?
Did they know that?
Liz (08:06):
So Alia's father and I don't live together and he is a
first responder.
And so he had work the next dayand I didn't even want to bother
him because first responders,they wake up super duper early.
If you know anything about thatlife, he's up at four and this,
by the time this all happened,it was around 11 at night.
(08:27):
And so I said, you know, I'lltell him about it tomorrow and
he's going to roll his eyes atme, you know, for freaking out
about nothing and looking backat that now, I know that that
was a huge mistake, but again, Ithought, I honestly thought that
I was just.
Kind of crazy, honestly, becausethen I was kind of worrying.
(08:48):
I was like, no, you're justgetting freaked out
Mandy (08:50):
about nothing.
There's nothing wrong, right?
It's so common I think women inour society to second guess
ourselves and our intuition I Ican say I think almost every
woman who's ever been pregnanthas probably had moments where
you think I don't think I feltthe baby move and then you think
Of course, like, of courseeverything is fine, right?
(09:12):
You talk yourself out of it.
So I can totally see how you'dbe in this space thinking, I am
going crazy.
Like, this is so silly and sostupid and everything is fine.
Exactly that.
And it had been such a
Liz (09:25):
busy few days.
You know, too, I was thinkingmaybe she's tired like me, you
know, I'm tired.
We've been up and down, youknow, from Jersey to DC
decorating, cooking, all thisstuff.
So to me, it just made sensethat, okay, you know, maybe
we're just having an off daywhen I got to the hospital and
the nurse.
(09:45):
You know, could not find aheartbeat and said there was
something wrong with themachine.
I could just tell with the waythat she looked.
I still, I still didn't click,but I just remember, and I
obviously think about this nowall the time.
That's the part of grief.
I, Looking at it now, I think Iknew, but I was just kind of
confused in those moments.
(10:07):
And then when they broughtanother machine in and one of
the midwives, I was working withthe midwives, the hospital that
I was at, you know, I just, I, Iknew And then I was like, Oh my
gosh, I came here alone.
I didn't tell her dad, nobodyknows I'm here.
I left my dog at home alone.
I literally walked right out ofthe house past, I'd already had
(10:29):
the hospital bag ready to go.
I'm a very organized person, soeverything is all lined up,
ready to go.
I walked past all of it thinkingI'll be back in 20 minutes, 30
minutes only to not come backfor.
Three days after I walked out ofmy house and came back into my
house no longer pregnant.
So That was I definitely wentinto shock and I think
(10:55):
Reflecting on my grief.
My grief is not Out loud if thatmakes sense.
My grief is I'm in shock.
I don't Talk.
I don't move.
I just kind of sit there and I'mthinking that is grief for me is
a lot of thinking.
And the whole time I was, youknow, making phone calls to
(11:17):
obviously get her father to thehospital quickly.
And my mom's got to get on atrain and my best friend needs
to come down.
I was just thinking of, okay,what are, what do I need to do
to get through this?
And I'll deal with the rest ofit after.
What do I need to do
Mandy (11:32):
right now?
Oh, yeah.
I think that's a very commonexperience to go through a
checklist because it helps youto keep functioning.
If you have a checklist to getthrough, then you have something
that you can focus on where thatisn't the grief itself.
Yeah.
And I was doing
Liz (11:47):
that the whole time.
I was like, let me think of achecklist for everything just so
I don't have to think about whatis happening to me in this
moment.
Mandy (11:54):
Right.
Was anyone able to get therethat night or did you spend that
first night alone?
Oh,
Liz (12:00):
yeah.
Oh, no, no, no, no.
Her father was there.
I mean, within 20 minutesbecause, you know he, we, we
live in DC, so, you know, he wasthere very quickly and my mom
was there first thing the nextmorning, got on the first train
that she could.
So, you know, that, and my bestfriend and my best friend's mom
came down with her so that shewasn't alone, which I appreciate
(12:20):
more than.
Cause again, we're still in thatCOVID time, you know, it's not
as bad as it was, but it wasn'tgreat.
It was scary to not be able tohave my mom in the hospital room
with me.
It was only her father and ourdoula, but you know, I, I kind
of think about it now.
(12:40):
If we didn't have our doula withus, I, we would have been a
mess.
Like she really kept ustogether, which I am forever,
forever grateful for because thetwo of us just sat.
And they're, you know, we'rebeing talked up for midwives,
OBs have to come in, we've gotnurses, there's a social worker.
And the two of us, I think ourgrief in a lot of ways is very
(13:03):
similar in that we're makingthose checklists, we're shutting
down, we just kind of listen,take it all in and don't say
much.
So the two of us are justsitting there like, you know,
kind of unresponsive when weneed to be making all these
decisions.
So I'm very grateful for mydoula.
But those three days I And thisis another thing that I always
(13:23):
go back and forth with, but inthe, during the time that it
happened, it was the bestdecision for me.
I wanted to try to stick with mybirth plan.
We had already done all thatstuff.
I had planned on having anunmedicated birth and I, because
it was another thing when thishappens to you, you have lost
all control.
(13:43):
And that for me, before Aaliyahwas very hard.
During those moments was evenharder, and to this day it's
still hard.
And so I just wanted to grab allthe control that I could.
And I tried, but after two daysI said, Okay, maybe this is not
healthy for me.
It's not healthy for her fatherto watch.
(14:04):
It's not good.
Like, let's go home.
And I delivered Aaliyah December1st, 2020.
About five, I forget the exacttime, five, something in the
morning, and then I had to go tosurgery after which was kind of
scary.
I'd never had surgery before, sonot only did I Just endure a
(14:29):
stillbirth.
I then had to go to surgery.
And after that, I just, herfather and I looked at each
other.
We were like, we got to get outof here.
And I said, I can't get out ofhere unless I can walk.
They said, if you can walk andproved us that you can walk
without help, we'll let you gotoday.
And so I had him get me up inthat room.
(14:49):
I was like, we got to get mewalking.
We got to do anything.
I got to get out of here.
And we did.
We did it.
We were out that day.
Yeah.
And since then, walking out ofthat hospital room, they did not
do anything to accommodate usleaving in terms of, you know,
(15:09):
going out a back door or nothaving to look at other people
in labor or hear people in laboror hear a baby cry as we were
walking out.
We just walked out of that roomand into an elevator.
And as soon as we walkeddownstairs, there was a woman in
labor going into the elevator.
And I was just like, okay, I gotto go.
(15:31):
And that really taking all ofthat in, in those first few
moments after being able to walkagain, leaving not pregnant when
I walked in pregnant and thenjust seeing what the world
looked like after this, oh mygosh, it just, it changed
everything,
Mandy (15:49):
going back to the experience of having to give
birth.
Did the team, you said that youdid need surgery after, did you
end up having time with Aaliyahbefore you had to go into
surgery?
Yes.
Liz (16:04):
Given the time that I delivered her, they had their
shift change.
So I had to wait for surgery andthat was our time that we could
spend with her.
Initially, we both, I didn'tknow what to expect.
I, I don't blame the hospitalfor this at all because I've
learned in this journey thatit's pretty much everywhere.
(16:25):
Nobody knows how to talk to youabout it.
What your baby looks like, whatyou can do, what you can't do.
We had initially said, you know,we'll say hi and then we're
done.
Cause I just, I couldn't bearlike having to hold my dead
child.
My doula again, talked to us.
We, we also said no pictures atfirst.
(16:48):
I am so grateful that I wasasked, we were asked several
times because we ended upchanging our mind, which.
Thank God for that.
Sometimes people are not askedseveral times and then they have
huge regrets later.
So that's a very important.
If you are working with peoplein this space, please ask
questions, sentimental or memorymaking questions.
(17:10):
Please ask them several timesbecause the answer might change
my little PSA for that.
But I was very grateful to havethese pictures with her.
My doula took them and I said,I'm not ready, for them now.
She said, no, no problem.
Whenever you're ready for them,let me know.
Of course, that first night thatI was home, I immediately texted
(17:31):
her.
I said, okay, I'm ready forthem.
But.
I feel like I was still in suchshock.
I don't really remember.
I don't really remember theentire time in the hospital.
I sometimes feel, and I look atthe pictures and I'm like, was I
ever even there?
Like I, I felt like it was just,I blacked out for three days.
So I don't really remember thetime as much as I wish I did,
(17:55):
which is why I'm so grateful forthose pictures.
Mandy (17:58):
Yeah.
And for your doula, not everyonegets a doula.
And did your doula have anytraining or experience with
stillbirth and this kind of lossso that she was more prepared to
guide you through theexperience?
Liz (18:15):
Yeah.
She's a full spectrum doula.
And I think that I'm happy thatyou asked that because again,
not everybody that has a doulahas one that knows what to do
and knows how to advocate inthose moments.
And of course that's notsomething that you want to even
think about when hiring a doula,but as long as they are a full
(18:35):
spectrum doula, then yes, theyhave that training.
And again, so grateful for thatbecause she guided us through
and sometimes I do think about,oh my gosh, if she wasn't there,
maybe we wouldn't have pictures.
She wasn't there, maybe I wouldhave just looked at Aaliyah and
not have held her, because Ididn't know what to do.
(18:56):
And as great as the staff was,it's hard to talk to a parent
that has just had their worldjust completely pulled out from
under them.
So to have someone there incharge on my team was huge.
Mandy (19:12):
I think that's such helpful information for other
people.
Parents or will be parents inthe future.
I've only heard of birth doulasbut I hadn't ever heard the term
full spectrum doula.
So I think that's really helpfulfor people to know when they are
searching out a doula that, thatmight be a skill set that they
want to have in the doula thatthey choose.
Liz (19:33):
Because another element that is really tough to think
about, but for women that aregiven life limiting diagnosis or
something like that for theirbaby and making choices, you
want someone that is going toexplain them to you, support
you.
And that's that full spectrum,you know, they're with you from
day one.
The start of your pregnancyuntil the end of it, no matter
(19:56):
how that looks,
Mandy (19:58):
did she provide you support following everything and
in the aftermath of your green?
Yes.
Liz (20:06):
Yes.
Some of my favorite books shesent to us definitely put me in
contact with some other peoplethat might be helpful.
And this was another thing aboutthe hospital, nobody tells you
that even though your baby isnot leaving with you, your body
does not know that.
And so, you know, nobody told methat the lactation would be
(20:27):
occurring.
I just assumed that it wouldn'tbecause surely my body knows
that there's nobody to feedhere.
Nope, not true at all.
So you know, She set us up withthe lactation consultant to come
to the house to help guide methrough that because I was like,
well now, like, what do I do?
Why didn't nobody tell me?
And that's a whole nother levelof trauma as well.
(20:49):
So she definitely helped.
Yeah.
Even afterwards as well.
Mandy (20:55):
Did the hospital provide you with any resources when you
left?
Liz (20:59):
We had the little memory box, which I love now did not
look at it for a very long time.
So in the moment that was notvery helpful because I, I did
not want to look at anything inthere.
I remember being given just someprintout of a bunch of doctor's
(21:20):
names.
But that was it.
And it, you know, it looked likevery old and I was like, do I
even want to call these people?
I don't even want to tellanybody that this happened to
me.
I don't know what I want to do.
I had seen, you know, atherapist before, randomly at
times, but nothing for this.
So while it was wellintentioned, you know, to me it
(21:43):
was just a piece of paper with abunch of people's names on it
that I've never even called.
Mandy (21:47):
Yeah.
You know.
I think over and over again, Italk to people who have stories
and our society, like ourmedical system does such a great
job with certain things, butloss seems to be one of those
things that really falls throughthe cracks every time.
And whether that's becausepeople don't know how to talk
(22:08):
about it or because there aren'tthe resources out there or
whatever the reason is, it'sjust such a huge gap in the
system.
And it's so sad that that is thereality for so many people.
And I'm so glad that you hadsomeone who was connected to
resources who could connect withher.
Liz (22:24):
Well, and I think that that treatment, realizing that I have
the support and resources, if itwas not for that person, I would
not have known about them.
Why am I in the hospital?
I'm leaving with.
Really no help.
That's kind of what put me onthis new path in life because I
(22:46):
saw the differences and I hadnever been in a position where I
had to think about loss likethat and it never crossed my
mind.
I wasn't educated on it.
And now it's the only thing Italk about really, because I
saw, I saw that gap in care forthe person that needed to walk
(23:07):
out that door and into a worldthat did not look the same as
when I had walked into thehospital.
Mandy (23:13):
And speaking of walking out of the world in this new
space and you had to go backhome and I'm assuming you had
all of your gifts from your babyshower there and you said your
hospital bags were packed.
I mean, just the experience Iimagine walking back into your
home was traumatic.
Liz (23:34):
Yes, I stayed with my mom at the hotel she was staying at.
Because that first night, causeI also, since I had had surgery
and everything, I needed to bewatched and because I could not
spend time with my mom while Iwas in the hospital, I said,
okay, this first night that I'mout, let me stay with her.
(23:57):
Just you know, be with, I mean,you know, if, if you're able to
be with your mother aftersomething like this, then
that's, that's important.
Again, I know that noteverybody.
Has that though, and so I amvery mindful of that, but I just
knew I needed to be with my momand When I did go back home, I
wanted to go by myself, whichwas the best decision for me.
(24:21):
Of course, you know, friends,her father, my mom, you know,
wanted to go with me.
I said, no,
Mandy (24:27):
something
Liz (24:27):
I want to do on my own.
My friend brought my dog back.
She had picked him up gotten inthe house to take him for a few
days.
I said, nope, I just want to bewith Leo in my home alone.
I got to figure this out.
It was really hard though,because you know, for baby
showers, it's.
You know, the whole bring athing of diapers for a raffle
(24:48):
ticket and stuff.
So I had the whole hallway herelined with every size diaper you
could imagine.
And I had just a week beforethat, before leaving for
Thanksgiving, had washed all theclothes, finished up the
nursery, everything was done.
(25:08):
And I just kind of sat in therethat first night, asked my doula
for the pictures of And I would,I, you know, it's so surreal and
I think a lot of people who havesuffered a loss, not necessarily
this form of loss.
You just kind of sit there andyou just ask yourself, how did
this happen?
(25:28):
How did I get here?
What just happened these pastthree days?
That's all I could not wrap myhead around.
I was just here decorating thishouse for Christmas.
Thinking I was going to be gonefor 20 minutes, and now all of a
sudden, at this time, it'sDecember 2nd, I left on November
28th, you know, how, what isgoing on, and what on earth am I
(25:51):
going to do next?
Like I couldn't wrap my headaround that at the time,
Mandy (25:57):
correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard for this kind of
loss that often comes with,because it was your body and
this happened and there's oftenno answer about why this
happened or there's no way thatit could have been prevented.
But I, I've heard that womenoften go through this period of
really.
Self-criticism or self Oh yeah.
(26:18):
You know, trying to think oflike, why did this happen to my
baby?
Mm-Hmm.
And was it anything that I did?
And I think that's like a verynormal response as a mom, but
also incredibly painful and addsa layer of grief that isn't
always there with every kind ofloss, but it's different.
Correct.
'cause it was your own body andyou know, you were growing your
daughter inside of you.
(26:38):
So did you have any of thatguilt?
Liz (26:43):
Initially, I did.
Yes, we were offered the optionof an autopsy, but the doctor
said You know, we kind of lookedher over and everything looks
fine.
So if you do choose an autopsy,we don't think we're going to be
able to tell you anything.
We don't think anything's goingto show up.
They said, usually we can tellsometimes this just happens,
(27:06):
which to me was like, what doyou mean?
Sometimes this just happens.
You know, at that time I couldnot, again, couldn't wrap my
head around it.
Luckily, because I had been, youknow, very involved in speaking
out with some of my treatmentfor my employer after having to
go back to work, and now all ofa sudden just being in this.
This baby loss community spacewas introduced to a fabulous
(27:30):
group of, of stillbirth moms.
And when I started to share someof the information that was
given to me post Aaliyah, theygave me resources to try to find
an answer.
And luckily due to an amazingplacental pathologist, we were
able to get an answer not longafter So I think the fact that I
was able to get an answerrelatively quickly greatly
(27:55):
helped me just kind ofunderstand everything and I'm
always going to think part of itwas my fault.
I think that's just natural.
I will never be able to let thatgo, but it is helpful to know
that.
Look, this is what happened.
It may have been preventable.
We'll never know for sure, butthat's something I'm working on
(28:15):
post Aleah.
It is, you know, little thingsthat should have been checked or
looked at that were not, couldhave saved my child's life if a
plan was in place, which is veryfrustrating now to know.
But Part of my grief journey ismaking sure that other people
don't go through this if it canbe prevented and supporting
people when it's too late.
(28:37):
And so, you know, it's, it'skind of given me a, an answer,
but it's still very tough everyday.
Mandy (28:44):
Absolutely.
But I think.
That in and of itself is alittle bit of a gift to know
that there was an identifiablereason.
Yes.
Because so many people don't getthat, you know, who just never
know what happened.
Oh my
Liz (28:58):
gosh, you're totally right.
And I've spoken to a lot ofmothers that happened, you know,
this happened 20, 30 years ago.
There's, I mean, people juststarted finding out and we just
now have the technology to findout what happened with.
Stillbirth, and I cannot imaginewhere I would be or what I would
(29:18):
be doing now if I didn't havethose answers so quickly.
I think that helped me in mygrief journey a lot.
Mandy (29:25):
And this, for you, all happened right around the
holidays.
So Thanksgiving, it justhappened, Christmas was coming,
I don't know if you celebrateChristmas or holidays, but I do.
I mean, how, how did you getthrough the holidays and how has
it impacted your holidays sincethen?
Liz (29:44):
So the first Christmas which was just, you know, less
than 20 minutes after, you know,everything happened.
I decided to just stay at home.
Her father was over.
We just had something with us.
Of course, I had already gottenall these presents and all this
stuff and, you know, had toreturn a lot of it, which was
(30:05):
its own you know, experience inand of itself, but we just had a
quiet night and that was that.
The holidays for me, I'm a bigholiday person.
My home is decorated to thenines.
I just love cooking.
I cook everything.
I do everything traditionalbubble ball, all that stuff.
And it has been difficult to dothat post Aaliyah, but it's
(30:31):
still important.
Like, so for me, the last thingI did while pregnant was
decorate my house for Christmas.
So.
I'm kind of happy in a way thatthat's the last thing I did
because now it's like mytradition with Aaliyah, you
know, that was the last thing wedid together.
Same thing with Thanksgiving.
(30:52):
I had a great Thanksgiving withfamily, cooked the whole dinner,
all that stuff while I waspregnant.
That was like, you know, thesecond to last thing we did in
all honesty.
So I think for me, while, whileholidays of course can be very
complicated and and actually.
Aaliyah's first anniversary, Ihad COVID, so I was kind of
happy about that because nobodycould visit me.
(31:14):
So I had Thanksgiving here aloneand, you know, then her birthday
came and went and nobody couldcome visit me cause I had COVID.
So I was, you know, I hate that.
thing.
I was happy about that.
But, you know, for me, it waslike, okay, this is good.
Cause I could be alone.
I could feel what I wanted tofeel.
(31:35):
I didn't have to act.
I didn't have to put on a smileor talk about being sad, all
that stuff.
So holidays, I say all that tosay holidays are complicated,
but the fact that I had some ofthe best days of my life.
Right before this all happened,kind of helps a little bit,
helps a little bit.
Mandy (31:56):
I love that perspective of that being the last thing
they did together and being ableto carry that forward into, you
know, the future holidays thatyou have in front of you.
And I know that holidays for allof us who have been through
grief.
Are, are complicated and someare harder than others and some
years are harder than others andall of that is totally normal
and and acceptable.
(32:17):
You know, there's no rules aboutit or anything, but it's, it's
always interesting to heardifferent perspectives.
So, after all of this happened,we're still in COVID times.
Did you go back to work at anypoint after the loss or how was
that for you?
Liz (32:35):
Yeah.
So it was, it's challengingbecause I, you know, being a
teacher, I had saved up all thisleave.
I had my leave approved for, youknow, maternity leave and all
that.
And, you know, I was so nervousabout having to tell my
employer.
What happened or that I wassupposed to be out for, she was
(32:56):
due end of January.
So I was supposed to be out forthe whole rest of the school
year.
Mandy (33:00):
And
Liz (33:00):
so I was saying, you know, I'm just going to take my six
weeks and then I'm actuallygoing to be coming back.
So at that point I was feelingterrible for the long term sub
that they had gotten me becauseit's like, Oh, actually, I'm
sorry, I'm going to need my jobback.
I just felt so terrible aboutthat.
And you know, at the same time,of course, I'm focusing on
everything else other than.
(33:20):
Me and how I'm feeling.
Right.
So, you know, I explained whathappened and they, you know,
immediately told me that myleave was going to be revoked
because I could not provide abirth certificate.
And you know, you can take sickleave if you want, but come back
to work.
So I thought surely someone isjust confused with what I'm
saying and maybe doesn'tunderstand what a still birth
(33:42):
is, or that I still gave birthand then I had surgery and I
hemorrhaged and all this stuffand I can't really walk that
well.
Mandy (33:48):
Yeah.
Liz (33:51):
Oh yeah.
Can't forget that.
Yeah.
All of, all of these things forthe worst perfect storm and was
told that I had to go back towork.
So to make a long story shortfor Washington DC, I've been
able to get some laws changedthat protect stillbirth parents
to still have their paid familyleave after stillbirth and
(34:11):
seeing that a school system hadtreated me like that after all
I've given to them for years.
I knew I needed to walk awayfrom it, which was its own grief
journey because my whole life, Ihad wanted to be a teacher since
I was a little girl playing, youknow, made me hold basement into
(34:31):
a school.
I was a teacher since I wasthree as far as I was concerned.
So to have to walk away from aprofession that I loved, still
love felt like a whole anotherdepth.
Mandy (34:45):
Yeah.
Liz (34:46):
And I was so frustrating because I had just been treated
with respect and my daughter'slife treated with respect.
I would not be on this podcastright now.
I would probably be teachingmath.
Right,
Mandy (35:00):
it's
Liz (35:02):
challenging.
And I think sometimes I try mybest to just not think about it
because first I lost Aaliyah andthen I made a choice to walk
away from my career, but it's achoice I had to make because I.
Was trying to respect myself themost I could despite everything
that had just happened to me.
(35:22):
So that was very, verychallenging at the time.
Mandy (35:26):
I, you know Bereavement, the way that it is not
acknowledged and respected inany workplace.
I mean, I very rarely do I heara guest say that their employer
was really great about it andsuper flexible with them.
Often it's the opposite.
Like, you're a story whereyou're asked to come back really
(35:48):
quickly.
You have to deplete any vacationtime you have if you want to
have any time off.
That's exactly what I did.
And it's just awful.
I, and, you know, someone elsecompared it and says, you know,
as we begin life.
We're often given 12 weeks, butas we're ending a life, you're
given three days, if not, andyeah, the whole thing infuriates
(36:09):
me, and I have definitelymentioned this before, but I
just, I would love to see thatchange, and I love that you are
involved in advocacy work andtrying to get laws changed to
that effect, because what a hugebenefit that is to future
parents who are going to be inthat position, as much as we
wish no one else would have togo through that.
There will be more where youare.
(36:29):
to know that you've given themthe gift of some respect from
their employer is huge.
Liz (36:35):
Absolutely.
And, and, you know, with thewhole family leave, that was
changed in October of 2021.
But when I went public with mystory, the district had enacted
an emergency bereavement bill,which still is still in place.
And it's for any parent thatloses a child under the age of
(36:55):
21, two weeks of leave.
And then in stillbirth waseventually added to the paid
family leave.
So it does give me some Comfortto know me sharing my story has
not only helped stillbirthparents, but any parents that
loses a child, you know, under21, but still giving those days
(37:17):
that are so needed.
And of course we know that twoweeks is not enough, but it's
better than three.
So to know that that is still inplace for parents.
Is, has been, you know, verycomforting to me.
Mandy (37:31):
Wow.
So you left teaching.
Where has life taken you sincethat time?
What have you done aside fromthis advocacy around policy?
What else are you doing in thisspace?
So
Liz (37:44):
I decided to support families that have been, you
know, I say forced to walk thisgrief journey.
And I started a nonprofit calledAaliyah in action.
And we provide self carepackages to families after any
form of perinatal or neonatalloss.
So we have a package and then wehave support books, a range of
(38:07):
them that are given depending onthe family's situation.
We partner with hospitals.
And you wait, we ship them out.
So if anyone's listening, weship them out to anyone who
requests one, but we partnerwith hospitals, which is
especially important to me sothat when you walk out of that
hospital and the world looksdifferent.
(38:28):
You have a package of justlittle self care items that
someone else that has walkedthat same walk knows what you're
thinking in these moments andknows how treacherous it is and
knows that when you are on thecouch crying all day, you might
need some lip balm.
You might need a little facemask.
You might want to go shower witha beautiful aromatherapy shower
(38:52):
steamer just to make you feelsomething
Mandy (38:55):
when
Liz (38:55):
you feel so numb.
And that is what the start.
Of the grief journey looks likefor a lot of us lost parents,
I'm not going to say it getsbetter down the road, but I
think when you set yourself upwith little supports like that,
it helps the journey not be sorocky in those moments.
(39:18):
Next coming months to years, andI want everyone to feel
supported after experiencingthis because you feel alone.
You feel like everyone's staringat you.
You feel like this has nothappened to anybody else.
And sadly, that's just not true.
It's happened to a lot ofpeople.
Mandy (39:35):
I love it.
That you're working withhospitals because I think that
just just even theacknowledgement of what somebody
is going through and whatthey're facing as they leave the
hospital because it doesn't endwhen you leave the hospital.
That's not really the beginningof this.
And so to be able to be givensomething to say, you know, we
know you're walking into a newphase and recognize that is is
(39:58):
incredible.
Liz (40:00):
Yeah, and I, I also have no cost resources on there cause
there, there are really greatresources out there, but I did
not leave the hospital knowingabout them.
I had to search for them on myown.
And another level of trauma isjust having to type into the
search bar.
stillbirth support resources,what to do when your baby dies.
(40:22):
Who do I talk to?
Nobody wants to type that stuff.
And so we have a resource cardin there that has everything you
need straight down to supportiveInstagram accounts so that you
don't have to type.
Certain things into that searchbar.
I'm just telling you, Hey, thesepeople are great.
You might want to take a look attheir page for support.
You don't have to go looking forit.
(40:43):
It's all right here for you to,you know, pick and choose
whatever fits best for you.
But you know, I think it's theteacher in me giving options,
giving people options and, youknow, just lots of different
avenues for them to find successin this grief journey.
Has been my, my mission and justmy, It's my job as Aaliyah's mom
(41:05):
to do it, that's, that's likethe easiest way I can say it
like that.
It is my job.
It keeps me up at night.
It keeps me busy just like shewould.
So to see this organizationgrow, you know, at first I
thought maybe just a fewhospitals in D.
C.
would be interested and nowwe're approaching 60.
So definitely not what I hadenvisioned, but Certainly, it
(41:28):
shows how much it's needed.
And I'm happy to provide forfamilies like us because it
feels like you are alone, butyou are not.
Mandy (41:38):
Wow.
That's incredible.
And I hope it continues to growacross the country because
there, there is such a huge needand it's not being filled right
now.
And so, you know, as, as much asthis is an awful, awful
experience, you know, I'm soglad that you're using it to
help other parents who.
And if people are interested infinding out more about your
(42:03):
organization, how can they dothat?
Where can they find you?
So
Liz (42:07):
www.
AaliyahInAction.
org and Aaliyah is spelled A A LI Y A H.
And also on social media, it'sjust at AaliyahInAction.
We are a nonprofit and it's beena journey.
I had no idea how to, how tostart this before, but I have
(42:27):
learned so much and I am sohappy to support families.
So, you know, please reach outif you are looking for support
because we will get you apackage if you need one.
Mandy (42:38):
I hope you enjoyed today's episode and feel
empowered to reach out to Liz ifyou've been through a stillbirth
or would like resources forsomeone who has.
If you would like to know ifyour local hospital is
participating in Aaliyah inAction by providing these self
care packages, her contactinformation will be in the show
notes.
Thank you so much for listening.
(42:58):
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
who could benefit from it, andas always, visit RememberGrams
anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you, and have a wonderfulday.
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