February 20, 2024 • 36 mins
Kelly Daugherty shares her own story of losing her mother as a child and how it has shaped her career as a social worker who now focuses on grief and loss support. You can connect with Kelly at her website: https://www.glgrief.com or at centerforinformedgrief.com.
To find Kelly's new book: "The Grief Experience: Tools for Acceptance, Resilience, and Connection", you can find it on Amazon here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief Charles podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from, rememberGraham's a small business
dedicated to helping you supportthose in your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or
grief support box.
Uh, shipping within the us asalways free.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
(00:22):
every detail.
Today's guest that onlyexperienced her own profound
loss as a child.
But then went on to build acareer, helping others with
their own grief.
I'm so grateful to have with usKelly Doherty, a seasoned social
worker and fellow.
death, dying and bereavement.
She's the owner of greater lifegrief counseling, the center for
(00:45):
informed grief.
Cohen's healing strides, whichblends emotional and physical
wellbeing and has volunteeredwith a hospice children's
bereavement program.
As if this isn't impressiveenough, she has a new book just
released this month called thegrief experience tools for
acceptance, resilience, andconnection, which she'll speak
(01:05):
about later in the episode.
Clearly I could talk Kelly upfor awhile, but I think
listening to her will allow youto hear her story for yourself,
how she tells the story of herown grief and how she holds
space for others.
Let's take a lesson.
Mandy (01:21):
So my
Kelly (01:21):
mom was a stay-at-Home Mom, and she did some volunteer
work at our church and ourschool, but her goal was that
whatever she was doing was thatshe'd be home for us when we got
off the bus and.
She didn't drive.
She never got her license.
So we walked a lot of differentplaces.
And so we knew a lot of peoplein the community.
(01:43):
Thankfully, a lot of peopleoffered us rides many days, so
we didn't always have to walk.
But she was the kind of personthat by time she got out of the
grocery store, she had aconversation with the checkout
person, the person in front ofher in line, and the person
behind her in line.
Aw.
And so.
(02:03):
And as my dad says, she was thekind that would send a thank you
card for a thank you card.
And she was just an extremelykind soul.
And when I was in seventh grade,it was Halloween day actually.
And what's kind of crazy tothink about is I was stressed up
as a corpse for that Halloween.
Oh no.
And my mom had surgery that day.
(02:26):
And she had a mastectomy becauseshe had breast cancer, and my
sister picked me up that nightat the Halloween dance as me
dressed as a corpse and just onescariest costume of the night
award.
And found out, you know, thefirst thing.
I remember my sister walkingdown that hallway and me saying
(02:46):
to her, what?
How's mom?
Is she gonna be okay?
And she's like, yep, she's gonnabe okay.
But that unfortunately was notthe case.
And she had chemotherapy.
She wanted to start chemo inJanuary after that year because
she wanted to get through theholidays.
My mom was a huge Christmas fan.
Every knickknack in the housewent away and something came out
(03:09):
Christmas themes and she.
Just made Christmas so magicaland amazing, and as my dad would
tell you, when she died in July,she was still paying off the
Christmas from the previousyears we were spoiled at
Christmas.
So she started chemotherapy andwent through that and had to go
(03:33):
through the whole process oflosing her hair.
I remember the night we wereeating spaghetti meatballs and
we found a piece of her hair inour, in our meatballs, and not
wanting to say anything to herbecause we didn't wanna upset
her.
But my mom also loved to dye herhair.
She didn't never want it to gogray.
And she was known to dye herhair the day before she was
(03:54):
going to see her younger sisterwho never dyed her hair.
So she always wanted to be lookyounger than her.
So she had different color wigsthat was like her thing.
She would have a wig, fun wigfor the winter where it was a.
Darker color and then a wig forthe summer where she was more
blonde.
(04:15):
That was like, I love that.
Mandy (04:19):
Yes.
That's so cool.
That actually reminds me of mymom.
She loved to like dye her hairall the time.
Mm-hmm.
And so she would always have adifferent look it like be dark
hair and then.
Platinum, blonde and red and allof these different
Kelly (04:30):
colors.
That's so cool.
Well, she just wanted to coverthe gray so she didn't look like
her sister.
Yeah.
I've been told, I don't rememberthis, but I've been told that
her and her other sister wouldget together the day before
seeing their other sister andthey would dye each other's
hair.
That is hilarious.
So she went into remission andwe were hopeful but
unfortunately it came back worsethan ever, and the cancer spread
(04:55):
to her brain.
We lived in a high ranch houseon Long Island, and so it was
about 12 stairs to go down toour basement, and she got lost
going down the stairs.
She didn't know where she wasgoing, and her personality
changed dramatically for someonewho was very kind and caring and
loving.
Called me the girl who talkedtoo much and was actually
(05:17):
cursing for probably the firsttime in her life.
My mom never cursed saying, youknow, damn was a curse word to
her.
And when the cancer went to herbrain, she started, I.
You know, saying not very nicethings and really her whole
personality changed at thatpoint.
And you were
Mandy (05:34):
just a kid.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Are you able at that age, evento like cognitively understand?
Because I feel like even as anadult, like probably for your
dad, this was hard to reconcileand know that this is the
disease, this is not her.
But as a kid it feels so much.
More personal or different, Ithink it's harder to like
(05:55):
separate those things.
Yeah.
And
Kelly (05:57):
my sisters were seven and a half and nine years older than
me.
And so at this point both of'emwere home.
They had both graduated collegeand just graduated just a couple
of months before my mom diedfrom college.
So I think I could understand,but I didn't wanna believe it
and I didn't wanna really engagewith the fact that what was
(06:19):
going on that summer when shegot really sick it, she died at
the end of July of ninety-four.
That summer I spent a lot oftime with friends.
I went to the.
Their beach houses.
I was out and about a lot, and Iremember my sisters being upset
about that, but I just couldn'tbe in the hospital all the time
and watching my mom decline likethat.
(06:40):
And my dad really wanted to usehospice services, but he just
didn't think the three of uscould handle having our mom die
in our home.
Yeah.
So unfortunately she did die inthe hospital and.
My sisters and I had gone to seeher.
My dad was at work, which iskind of crazy to even think
about that.
He was at work.
Yeah.
While this was all going on.
Because we were told she had aweek left to live.
(07:02):
And during that week, like.
I just thought, okay, if I keepfeeding her, she's gonna stay
alive.
And so I kept shoving food inher face and trying to get her
to eat.
And obviously that wasn't gonnamake a difference.
She died eight days later fromthat conversation that we had,
that we knew that that washappening.
And so we had gotten to see herfor the visiting hours because
(07:24):
at that time also hospitalslike.
You had your two-hour window andthat's all you were allowed to
be there.
I hope that that's different.
Crazy.
It's, I work at a hospital, Ipromise it's different.
Alright, good.
And we went into the hospitalthat day and her hands were blue
and her feet were blue.
Now I've worked at hospice, youknow, in my later in my, in my
career.
(07:45):
And so obviously I know whatthat meant.
And we asked one of the nurses,and the nurses wouldn't tell us
and really told us that thedoctor would have to call us.
So, so we,
Mandy (07:56):
yeah.
That's very different than howthey handle it now.
Kelly (07:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah, so we left the hospitalthat day.
We went to the mall, which wasmy mom's favorite place, and I
believe that she died while wewere shopping in the Gap, which
is exactly what she would'vewanted for us because she loved
the gap.
Everybody that worked at the Gapknew my mom by name, and my mom
(08:20):
and one of our neighbors wouldgo pretty much every Wednesday
because that's when they wouldreduce.
The sales and she would go backwith her receipts and her things
that she bought the week beforeand then get'em even cheaper.
Smart.
Her, her and Mrs.
Powell would have these likejackets that they, they got for
us for like$3 like, so I thinkit's very fitting that my mom
(08:43):
probably died while we were inthe gap.
Aw.
And we wound up at theneighbor's home, a neighbor's
home that we were very close to,and my sister came running in to
tell us that she had receivedthe message on our answering
machine that our mom hadexpired.
Wow.
That's
Mandy (09:00):
the phrasing we
Kelly (09:01):
used.
Yep.
And I was like, she's not apiece of cheese.
Yeah.
And so that was, you know, thebeginning of a, of a very
difficult time in my life.
My, I don't talk a lot aboutthis, but my dad was an
alcoholic at the time.
Mm-Hmm.
So things were not good.
At our house.
And his drinking got worse andhe actually kicked my sisters
(09:24):
out about two months after mymom died.
So I was stuck at home with justhim and he'd be falling asleep,
you know, passing out drunk.
And it was so, not only did Ihave the grief of my mom being
gone, but then I was dealingwith my dad and not having my
sisters there.
Mandy (09:44):
Right.
You're trying to be the adult inthat situation.
As you're grieving'cause youjust lost your mom.
Kelly (09:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I went to an all-girlsCatholic high school, which
unfortunately wasn't verysupportive and they actually
prayed for my father who died inthe very first school mass.
So all the girls were coming upto me that day asking me,
saying, oh, I'm so sorry aboutyour dad.
(10:11):
And I was like, it wasn't mydad.
It was my mom.
And.
Honestly, to be completelyvulnerable and honest.
I had told my dad several times,which obviously now I regret
that I wish it had been him thatdied instead of my mom, because
my dad was the, you know, heworked, he provided for us and
he drank, and so he wasn't thatnurturing, loving mom, like a
(10:34):
dad that like my mom was just,she was there, right?
She was our person and.
Mandy (10:41):
And I just wanna normalize that because I think
that's a very, very normalreaction after someone dies is I
think that's part of like what,not that I prescribed to, like
the stages of grief or anything,but Good.
Thank you.
Kelly (10:54):
Yeah.
Mandy (10:55):
But when you think about, like, you will give up at, I
mean, I remember I was like, Iwill give up anyone in my life.
To have my mom back because Ithink also the mother-daughter
bond is like so special.
Not for everyone.
Not everyone has a greatrelationship.
Mm-Hmm.
But it can be like one of themost special nurturing
relationships.
So, you know, as a kid you mightlook back at that and be like,
(11:18):
oh, I feel terrible that I like,thought that and said that.
But I also think for otherpeople listening to know that
like, those thoughts don't makeyou a bad person.
And that is like part of yourgrief coming out.
It's not.
It's not you putting value onthe people around you and
Exactly.
Weighing them against eachother.
Yeah, exactly.
And so a few months
Kelly (11:39):
after my mom died, it was in January, my dad's drinking
was probably at the all-time.
Worst.
And so I wrote him a letter andI left it on his dresser and I
told him that if he didn't stopdrinking, I was going to run
away.
I was really serious about that,and I don't really think I've
talked about this anywhere inpublic about this part, but he
(12:01):
showed up in my doorway of mybedroom and he said, I don't
have a problem, but I will stopdrinking.
And he did.
I think he was a bit of a, a drydrunk for a while because he
wasn't doing anything and acouple of years later,
thankfully the neighbor.
We were with at the time when wegot the notice that my mom died.
(12:21):
She helped him join AA.
And so my dad got into AA, stillparticipates in AA to this day.
Wow.
And so he's been sober througha, been sober for twenty-nine
years, but been in AA fortwenty-seven years, and I am so
proud of him.
And he shares with every year athis anniversary about that
(12:45):
letter that he received from me.
Wow.
And how much that changed hislife.
And I'm so proud of him.
I'm so proud of the changes I'veseen over these years.
It hasn't always been easy.
Yeah, we did.
We did a lot of familycounseling together and that
poor counselor, Margaret, oh, Ifeel so bad for her.
I mean, we'd be screaming ateach other and she's like.
(13:08):
She's like, I can't see you guystogether anymore.
Like, there's other people inthis building, like, you guys
are way too loud.
So we went through a lot.
Yeah.
But I'm very, I'm very gratefulfor the relationship we, we
still have today, so.
Wow.
Mandy (13:26):
And it comes from like this brave little girl who, you
know, is just a teenager andlost her mom and had the
wherewithal to write that letterand to sort of confront the
situation because I think.
As humans, sometimes we try toavoid that kind of stuff.
Mm-Hmm.
And avoid conflict or avoidtalking about the hard things.
So Wow, that's amazing.
(13:46):
What a great story.
And I'm so glad he's open aboutit and tells people that story.
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly (13:50):
I am too.
I'm very proud of him.
So, you know, obviously my griefwas.
I was a hot mess.
I cried myself to sleep mostnights.
I pulled away from a lot offriends.
I didn't feel very supportedfrom my new friends at school
because.
That was a new school to me, andI wasn't myself my freshman year
(14:11):
because my mom was dying andMm-Hmm.
I didn't really know how to fitin and how to act at that time.
And so, you know, after my momdied, I, I made some bad
decisions, like a lot ofteenagers and dated a boy that I
cringe thinking about right now.
We've all been there.
(14:32):
Yeah, it was bad.
I think my dad retired earlybecause of that, he knew he
needed to be home, but my dadwas smart enough to know that we
needed help and he got me tojoin a hospice grief support
group and.
He told me that there'd be boysat the group, which got me to
(14:54):
go.
That's great.
But of course there wasn't.
Darn.
Yeah, exactly.
But I walked into that room andthere was five other girls.
Who had all lost.
I believe they all had had theirfather's die.
But I still walked into thatroom and for the first time, I
didn't feel alone in my griefand I felt like I belonged and
(15:19):
that I wasn't the only persongrieving the death of a parent.
As a teenager.
And obviously now we know,right?
One in 12 children will have aparent or a sibling die by the
time they're 18 years old.
But at that time, I didn't knowanybody.
I was really the only one I feltlike.
And so that group changed mylife.
I met an amazing social workernamed Rini.
(15:39):
I also was the kind that Iwanted to leave every week with
another book.
I wanted to understand what Iwas going through, and I think
Rini probably ran out of booksto give me for teens because
like I just wanted to understandwhat was happening to me.
Yes.
And after I did a couple ofrounds of groups with her, she
asked me to start volunteeringwith the children's groups.
(16:00):
Aw.
And I remember some of thosekids still to this day.
And that's when I knew that thisis what I wanted to do with my
life.
And so I went and I got myundergraduate in social work and
my master's in social work.
I worked at a couple ofdifferent hospices and.
I find meaning in my grief everysingle day by the work that I
(16:22):
do, and now I'm in privatepractice and I specialize in
grief and loss and I know my momwould be so proud of me.
Something positive has come outof this Mm-Hmm.
Out of a huge loss thatobviously I would, I would do
anything to have her back.
But I truly believe I've beenable to help thousands of people
on their grief journey becauseof her death.
(16:44):
It's, such an
Mandy (16:45):
incredible.
Path that you took to get there.
And also, I just wanted to touchon the book thing because I
think that is sometimes I don'tknow if it's underutilized, but
I also found a lot of solace inreading other people's stories
who are similar to mine andrecognizing like, oh, it's not
just me.
I'm not the only one who thoughtthis crazy thought or, you know,
(17:07):
did this crazy thing and inreaction to what happened and.
I don't know.
It's still, I think things arebetter than probably when you
were a child and lost your momand it was very less talked
about, you know, more quietabout grief.
But we still have a long way togo and Absolutely.
I mean, I was in my twenties andI remember going to Barnes and
(17:29):
Noble and looking for booksabout grief and about losing
your mom.
And I felt, you know, there'slike a shame in that and, and I
was.
An adult buying a book in Barnesand Noble, but I was like almost
ashamed to buy those books andso, Mm-Hmm.
I think, you know, the workyou're doing, the work that this
podcast and others are doingexactly to put out there and say
(17:50):
like, it's okay.
And it actually probably willhelp you feel better to read
about other people's experience.
Mm-Hmm.
Wow.
So yeah, tell me more about yourwork and what you're doing and
do you work with kids now?
Kelly (18:04):
Kids and adults.
Yep.
So I do both and I volunteerwith the children's Bereavement
camp.
Oh.
So that I still stay in touchwith that and
Mandy (18:12):
love that.
But yeah, so I have my private
Kelly (18:15):
practice, greater life, Grief counseling.
I'm in upstate New York and I doindividual.
Where are you grief counseling?
I'm in Malta right outside ofSaratoga.
Oh my
Mandy (18:23):
gosh.
I am in Rochester right now, butI grew up outside of Albany, so
I grew up in the Detroit area.
Yeah, that's so crazy.
Oh, small
Kelly (18:31):
world.
Yeah.
But yeah, so I, I love doingindividual counseling, but I
love groups.
Groups or my passion.
That is something I offer yearround two groups every week.
Sometimes more.
Right now I'm doing amultifamily grief group and a,
I'm coping with the holidaysgrief group, but.
(18:52):
My favorite is Healing Strides.
And I would love to just mentionthis for a minute.
Yeah, of course.
So Healing Strides is somethingthat my friend Lisa and I
created several years ago when Iworked at an agency.
But we kind of were doing itwith teens and mindfulness, and
then when I made the transitionto private practice, I was like,
I'm only focusing on grief andloss now.
Like this is what I wanna do.
So we switched because herpassion is also grief and loss.
(19:12):
We actually met at the griefcamp.
Oh.
We were roommates.
And so our program, healingStrides is the first hour is a
traditional therapeutic griefgroup.
And then the second hour wetrain for a 5K race together
with, and we have a group ofmentors, volunteer mentors.
And then at the end of the sevensessions, we all run a 5K
(19:33):
together.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
I love this.
Yeah.
It's amazing that,
Mandy (19:41):
yeah.
You know, it's almost likecombining, I was a coach for
Girls on the Run.
I don't know if you Mm-Hmm.
Know about that organization.
Mm-Hmm.
Yep.
So that's like younger girls whoare in elementary school.
And then you learn skills abouthow to be a good friend and how
to be a good person and a human.
And then you're also likerunning too.
And then you run a 5K at theend.
So it's almost like you takethat and put it with something
(20:04):
really important that'shappening in their life.
And how incredible is that?
Because it also teaches not justkids, but adults too, that like
exercise and moving Exactly.
Can be incredibly healing inyour grief.
And it's something they can takewith them for the rest of their
lives.
Well, and I think it's also, youknow, when we're grieving,
Kelly (20:23):
it's so hard to be able to set a goal for ourself and to
see something, you know, futureoriented.
Mm-Hmm.
And so knowing that this is yourgoal that you're working
towards, and then crossing thatfinish line and watching there,
every race I cry on my way homefrom because it is.
So amazing to see these womenwho are dealing with such
(20:44):
significant losses and so muchgrief to be able to see them
push themselves every week ingroup and then outside.
And then to see them cross thatfinish line.
We had a seventy-one-year-oldwoman cross that finish line.
Oh wow.
And she came right up to me,gave me a huge hug, and she's
like.
Thank you.
She's like, this was always onmy bucket list to do and I
(21:05):
didn't know if I was gonna doit.
And then behind me was herdaughter and her granddaughter
with a sign holding up for hergrandma, and it was like, I just
like bust.
I just burst into tears.
At that point I was like, oh mygosh.
Like this is what it's about.
Yeah.
And so we actually now are doingan official research study on
the program
Mandy (21:26):
because that's what I was gonna ask.
I was like, is this beingreplicated elsewhere?
Kelly (21:29):
cause it should be.
Yes.
So that is our goal.
We got we got that approvedliterally the day before this,
the fall cycle this year, so,wow.
Thankfully.
And our goal is to be able toget this out to the masses
because it, from doing this fromyears and now a lot of our.
Mentors are actually pastparticipants that have come back
(21:52):
to volunteer their time.
Oh
Mandy (21:54):
my gosh.
This is like, and I feel likeyou're pulling different parts
of my world together talkingabout this, and it's so cool.
I.
I don't know how familiar youare with addiction recovery.
I know you mentioned your dad isin AA.
Yeah.
But my brothers both struggledwith addiction and there's a
local organization to me that isfocused on fitness as part of
your recovery journey.
(22:15):
Yeah.
And it's all like peer-led andpeer-supported.
And yeah, it's like, reminds mea little bit of this model.
Yeah.
And it literally changespeople's lives, like people are.
So different Absolutely.
After like, going through theseprograms.
So I, I'm just so excited thatyou're doing this kind of work
and that it, now you're gonnahave the research to back it up
and then it can just Exactly.
(22:36):
Spread like wildfire, hopefully.
Exactly.
Well,
Kelly (22:39):
and you know, we've been doing pre and post tests all
along and our results areamazing.
And that's what the, one of thementors, she's a psychologist,
she's like, Kelly, these resultsare really good.
Like, we need to do somethingwith this.
And I was like, okay, like, whatdo you wanna do?
She's like, we're, we're.
We're submitting an IRBproposal, like let's do it.
And I was like, okay.
Like wow.
Mandy (22:59):
Yeah.
I can see this definitely beingpresented at like a national
conference and then it, and thenit being modeled all over the
place.
Which it should be.
Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes I, sometimes I thinkthat we have therapy so
separated from other things thatcan help and like having that
integrated.
I don't know.
It just has a better impact.
(23:20):
Well, and the friendships thatthey form
Kelly (23:22):
with each other,'cause you know, they're sharing,
they're vulnerable and then theygo outside and they're moving
their bodies with these womenand to be able to be outside and
laugh.
And I, one of the post-testssaid, I never leave healing
strides without a smile on myface.
Wow.
Who says that about a griefgroup?
Yeah.
(23:45):
And, you know, in grief groups,nobody wants to have to go to a
grief group.
It's not a a group that anybodywants to have to be there.
But if you're gonna have to bethere and you can leave with a
smile on your face, then I feellike it was worth all of our
time.
Mandy (23:59):
How do you.
Advertise your program, and howmany people do you usually have
in a cohort?
Kelly (24:05):
So it depends.
You know, this past season wehad eight women.
The spring we had 14 women.
Wow.
So it, it just ranges.
A lot of'em, you know, couldpotentially be my clients.
But Word has definitely gottenout in the community about this,
so more and more therapists arereferring, and I've even heard
some school districts havetalked about it at like their
(24:27):
back to school night with their,their, with their teachers and
staff.
So it's getting out there and Ijust hope it continues to grow.
And Lisa, the running coach, istrying to get me to do a healing
Strides level two, where wewould do, a half marathon or a
10 K.
Yes.
And I'm like, oh, I, I don'tcall myself a runner.
(24:50):
I, I may run during healingstrides, but I'm not a runner.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, Idon't know if I can do that.
Lisa.
She's like, yes, you can.
I'm like, I don't know.
So I'll see what happens there.
I'm with her.
Mandy (25:00):
You could definitely do
Kelly (25:01):
it.
Mandy (25:02):
And how incredible would it be to do it with people who,
you know, you're there helpingand everybody is striving for
the same thing.
Kelly (25:09):
Yep, exactly.
Oh,
Mandy (25:11):
wow.
I love hearing about this.
It's so incredible.
All right.
What kind of advice do you giveto, to clients who are in this,
this space of like deep.
Kelly (25:23):
Well, I think first you have to lean into your grief.
You have to feel your grief.
Grief is something that you haveto feel.
You can avoid it all you want.
It will come back.
Mm-Hmm.
And I tell a story aboutsomebody that I know it took 30
years to come back, but it did.
And so it is really aboutsitting with a grief, feeling
it, obviously, yes, you need totake breaks from your grief.
(25:43):
Right.
But I'm a big, I'm a big fan ofthe dual process model, right?
That oscillation between lossoriented and restoration
oriented, and how throughout theday.
Even minutes, we can go back andforth between those two mm-Hmm.
And so, and I think griefgroups, I think in my opinion,
sometimes grief groups are moreeffective than individual
counseling.
(26:03):
Interesting.
And so I think that is to beable to have that network of
people where you can walk into aroom and if they ask you How are
you, you don't have to lie andsay, I'm okay.
They know you're not.
Okay.
And you can be like, today'sreally crappy, and that's okay.
Mm-Hmm.
And that they're able to holdthat space for you so you can be
(26:26):
vulnerable and honest.
And I always say the very firstnight of a grief group, you do
not need to apologize for cryingin here.
Right.
Because as soon as they startcrying, they, oh, I'm so sorry.
You are, if you can't cry in agrief group, where can you cry?
Right.
So it's.
I also think you have tosometimes do some trauma work.
(26:47):
Mm-Hmm.
I'm trained in EMDR inProgressive County and we tend
to get caught up on the death.
How they died, maybe if wewitnessed it or what we've
imagined in our brain happened,right?
So many people have heard enoughinformation that they've created
this like false memory in thebrain of what HA has happened,
and then we can't focus on theperson's life.
(27:08):
We are focusing on that death.
And so doing even one session ofprogressive counting one day can
really decrease that and getthem to be able to focus on
their loved one's life.
And I think that is so importantbecause, you know, our brains
are like Velcro to the bad andTeflon to the good, right?
(27:28):
So our brains are gonna wannastick to that ending, but that's
not how we wanna rememberpeople.
Mm-Hmm.
Right.
You know, and I did, when I gottrained in progressive counting,
I'm the kind that when I go tomy trainings, I'm gonna work on
all of my stuff because I'mlike, oh, this is free therapy.
Why not?
And so I did my mom's death, andwhen I got trained in
(27:49):
progressive counting 10 yearsago, I.
I was, I was a mess during thatsession, but I still, to this
day, 10 years later, it doesn't,when I think about my mom and
that bed and when she went afterseeing her when she died, I
don't have that reaction that Idid before doing that
Mandy (28:05):
work.
Wow.
Can you explain briefly whatprogressive counting is?
Yeah, so it is
Kelly (28:11):
a fairly newer trauma treatment resolution treatment.
It's been, obviously I gottrained in it 10 years ago, so
it's not that new, but it's justnot as well known as EMDR eye
movement, desensitizationreprocessing.
Mm-Hmm.
And you watch the memory like amovie in your mind, while the
therapist counts out loud, andyou keep doing that over and
over again.
(28:31):
You add more time each time, sothe movie gets longer.
And what happens is itdesensitizes you to that memory
and you're able to think aboutthat memory and not have that
emotional maybe, like for me,I'm a, I always get that feeling
in my stomach.
That's where I always knowsomething.
Like that's where I feel it.
So you can think about thatmemory, not get that feeling.
(28:54):
Anymore and that, and what Ihear so many of my clients say
is that after doing progressivecounting, they're not thinking
about that death scene anymore.
It's not coming up in their mindas much.
Maybe the flashbacks havestopped, maybe the intrusive
thoughts, maybe the nightmares.
And I find that even clientsthat don't even get down to the
(29:14):
zero for the suds, thesubjective units of distress are
still reporting a significantchange from one session to the
next.
Mandy (29:23):
Wow.
I love that you have such avariety of methods that it
sounds like you work withclients on.
I think, I mean, everyone'sdifferent, but I obviously went
to therapy after my mom and mybrother's death, and really the
only thing that I was offeredwas talk therapy.
And so I, I actually haveinterviewed a lot of people and
they, there are a lot ofdifferent modalities out there,
(29:45):
and I also don't think peoplerealize that.
And so if they're going to atherapist and the only thing
that's being offered is talktherapy, people don't even know
that they can ask about otheroptions.
And how do we find groups andhow do we find people that are
offering these different waysthat you can work through it?
Kelly (30:01):
I think one of the things that's really important to
mention is not every therapistis grief informed.
Mm-Hmm.
About 60% of therapists did nothave any education,
undergraduate or graduate schoolon grief and loss.
My social work department didnot offer that.
I went to the religiondepartment.
I went to the nursingdepartment.
'cause obviously I was interningto hospice.
(30:21):
Like I knew that this is what Iwanted to do with my life.
When you're seeking out atherapist.
Mm-Hmm.
Making sure that they arecomfortable because even
therapists, they're just notcomfortable with it.
They don't wanna work with griefand loss.
Finding a grief-informedtherapist is so important.
And also asking like, what doyou believe?
(30:43):
I, I cringe.
Well, I'm so glad you said aboutthe five stages,'cause that's
like my biggest pet peeve.
Yeah.
And I could get on a soapboxabout that for a minute.
I'll try not to, but yeah,that's fine.
They, it's not accurate, right?
And when therapists are tellingtheir clients about the five
stages, that is not helpful tothem.
It can make them think they'redoing their grief wrong.
And I, I will tell my griefgroups, if your therapist is
(31:04):
talking about the five stages,you may wanna consider looking
for a new therapist.
And I say finding a therapist islike finding a bathing suit for
a woman.
Sometimes the first one you tryon fits perfectly.
Sometimes you have to keeptrying'em on until you find the
right fit.
So if you are, your listenersare grieving and they're looking
(31:25):
for therapists, it's okay tochange if it's not a good fit.
Yeah, you have to find somebodythat's gonna be able to help you
and not keep you in therapyforever.
Mandy (31:35):
It doesn't.
I would also just add, because Iremember when I was looking for
a therapist, it doesn't matterif it says in their bio that
they focus on grief because.
They still might not be a greatfit, or you might be like,
exactly.
Maybe they don't know as muchabout grief as I had imagined,
or they're not the good, they'renot a good fit for me.
So I think it's saying it's okayto switch or when specialize in
(31:56):
everything.
Yes, yes.
They specialize in everything.
It was one, it was definitelyone of those.
Yeah.
Kelly (32:01):
I'm like really to really specialize in everything.
Right.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I've always wanted to do
was write a grief book.
Mm-Hmm.
And last year I was approachedby somebody to be part of a
collaborative book, PolisticMental Health.
And I wrote about my mom's deathin that book.
And it was really interesting tome, twenty-eight years later to
(32:22):
see the grief that surfaced forme writing that chapter.
I mean, I talk about this allthe time.
Like, this is not nothing Right.
New, but to write it out likethat and to go back through some
of it, it was.
It was really interesting andjust a really good reminder that
grief isn't something we getover, but it is something we
learn to live with and integrateinto our lives, and so I'm
(32:43):
really excited to share that.
I decided to do my owncollaborative book, which will
be coming out in February, 2024.
Congratulations.
Thank you called the GriefExperience Tools for Acceptance,
resilience, and Connection.
And I am, I have to be honest, Iam so blown away with this book
because it's twenty-five authorsof all different kinds of grief.
(33:04):
Mm-Hmm.
So there's anticipatory grief,there's ambiguous loss, there's
traumatic grief, there'sdivorce, there's infertility
there.
My goal really was that whoeverpicks up this book is gonna be
able to relate to at least oneperson.
And I finally got the draft ofall the chapters two weekends
ago, and I sat down and read itand like bawled, like every
(33:24):
chapter is so amazing and sovulnerable.
And then also the authors sharea tool.
That has helped them on theirpersonal grief journey and also
can hopefully help the readers.
And so I really, I'm so excitedfor it to come out.
I think it's gonna be a reallygreat addition, like we've
talked about both of us, likeour grief books.
(33:45):
Yes.
And I'm really hoping that it'sgonna be one that can, people
can really benefit from andreally find it beneficial and
helpful.
Mandy (33:53):
And what's the name of the book again?
Kelly (33:55):
It's called The Grief Experience Tools for Acceptance,
Resilience and Connection.
Awesome.
Mandy (34:01):
You know, I too.
I find writing about our griefto be one of those other really
helpful mechanisms.
Mm-Hmm.
And it is a differentexperience.
'cause I've talked about mygrief a lot, but once I sat down
and wrote about it, I think youprocess it differently in your
mind.
And it is a little bit of goingback into it, which I think can
be difficult because in a wayit's like you're reliving that
(34:25):
experience as you write it.
But once I got it out onto thepage.
It definitely shifts.
I think it, it's like a healing.
It's very
Kelly (34:34):
healing.
Oh, it's so amazing.
Yeah.
And that's what I kind of warnedall of the authors about for
this book.
I was like, it's gonna bring upsome stuff like Mm-Hmm.
And so we did a lot of likecheck ins.
I offer breathwork sessions tothem after our chapters were due
and just to try to.
You know, give them some supportaround it because I know what I
went through last year andMm-Hmm.
(34:54):
And they did.
They were, it's'cause you're,especially a lot of these people
are therapists and they'resharing their really vulnerable
stories with the world.
And that part I think, freakedthem out the most was like, oh
my gosh.
Like my clients could read this.
Like the whole world could readthis.
And I was like, yeah, but howamazing that is.
Like, I think that's the bestpart about it, is your words are
(35:15):
gonna truly be able to helpsomebody.
And there's so many, everyauthor is so different in the
book.
It's, we have a medium, we havea funeral director, we have
somebody talking about the powerof prayer.
So everybody, like, I reallythink everybody's gonna be able
to relate to someone.
Mandy (35:33):
Wow, that's incredible.
I can't wait to get my hands onit and read it.
I like to have as many resourcesas I can available to like refer
people to.
So yeah,
Kelly (35:43):
that's perfect.
I hope you enjoyed listening toKelly share her story and her
years of wisdom when it comes tomoving through grief.
Links to her book and where youcan find her will be in the show
notes.
For today's journal prompt.
Write about the intersection ofyour grief and moving your body.
Let the writing take you in anydirection at Leeds.
(36:04):
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
Does it remember grams?
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
Hello, and welcome back to thegrief Charles podcast.
I am your host, Amanda.
Kernaghan from, rememberGraham's a small business
dedicated to helping you supportthose in your life.
Experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or
grief support box.
Uh, shipping within the us asalways free.
And we treat each order withspecial care paying attention to
(00:22):
every detail.
Today's guest that onlyexperienced her own profound
loss as a child.
But then went on to build acareer, helping others with
their own grief.
I'm so grateful to have with usKelly Doherty, a seasoned social
worker and fellow.
death, dying and bereavement.
She's the owner of greater lifegrief counseling, the center for
(00:45):
informed grief.
Cohen's healing strides, whichblends emotional and physical
wellbeing and has volunteeredwith a hospice children's
bereavement program.
As if this isn't impressiveenough, she has a new book just
released this month called thegrief experience tools for
acceptance, resilience, andconnection, which she'll speak
(01:05):
about later in the episode.
Clearly I could talk Kelly upfor awhile, but I think
listening to her will allow youto hear her story for yourself,
how she tells the story of herown grief and how she holds
space for others.
Let's take a lesson.
Mandy (01:21):
So my
Kelly (01:21):
mom was a stay-at-Home Mom, and she did some volunteer
work at our church and ourschool, but her goal was that
whatever she was doing was thatshe'd be home for us when we got
off the bus and.
She didn't drive.
She never got her license.
So we walked a lot of differentplaces.
And so we knew a lot of peoplein the community.
(01:43):
Thankfully, a lot of peopleoffered us rides many days, so
we didn't always have to walk.
But she was the kind of personthat by time she got out of the
grocery store, she had aconversation with the checkout
person, the person in front ofher in line, and the person
behind her in line.
Aw.
And so.
(02:03):
And as my dad says, she was thekind that would send a thank you
card for a thank you card.
And she was just an extremelykind soul.
And when I was in seventh grade,it was Halloween day actually.
And what's kind of crazy tothink about is I was stressed up
as a corpse for that Halloween.
Oh no.
And my mom had surgery that day.
(02:26):
And she had a mastectomy becauseshe had breast cancer, and my
sister picked me up that nightat the Halloween dance as me
dressed as a corpse and just onescariest costume of the night
award.
And found out, you know, thefirst thing.
I remember my sister walkingdown that hallway and me saying
(02:46):
to her, what?
How's mom?
Is she gonna be okay?
And she's like, yep, she's gonnabe okay.
But that unfortunately was notthe case.
And she had chemotherapy.
She wanted to start chemo inJanuary after that year because
she wanted to get through theholidays.
My mom was a huge Christmas fan.
Every knickknack in the housewent away and something came out
(03:09):
Christmas themes and she.
Just made Christmas so magicaland amazing, and as my dad would
tell you, when she died in July,she was still paying off the
Christmas from the previousyears we were spoiled at
Christmas.
So she started chemotherapy andwent through that and had to go
(03:33):
through the whole process oflosing her hair.
I remember the night we wereeating spaghetti meatballs and
we found a piece of her hair inour, in our meatballs, and not
wanting to say anything to herbecause we didn't wanna upset
her.
But my mom also loved to dye herhair.
She didn't never want it to gogray.
And she was known to dye herhair the day before she was
(03:54):
going to see her younger sisterwho never dyed her hair.
So she always wanted to be lookyounger than her.
So she had different color wigsthat was like her thing.
She would have a wig, fun wigfor the winter where it was a.
Darker color and then a wig forthe summer where she was more
blonde.
(04:15):
That was like, I love that.
Mandy (04:19):
Yes.
That's so cool.
That actually reminds me of mymom.
She loved to like dye her hairall the time.
Mm-hmm.
And so she would always have adifferent look it like be dark
hair and then.
Platinum, blonde and red and allof these different
Kelly (04:30):
colors.
That's so cool.
Well, she just wanted to coverthe gray so she didn't look like
her sister.
Yeah.
I've been told, I don't rememberthis, but I've been told that
her and her other sister wouldget together the day before
seeing their other sister andthey would dye each other's
hair.
That is hilarious.
So she went into remission andwe were hopeful but
unfortunately it came back worsethan ever, and the cancer spread
(04:55):
to her brain.
We lived in a high ranch houseon Long Island, and so it was
about 12 stairs to go down toour basement, and she got lost
going down the stairs.
She didn't know where she wasgoing, and her personality
changed dramatically for someonewho was very kind and caring and
loving.
Called me the girl who talkedtoo much and was actually
(05:17):
cursing for probably the firsttime in her life.
My mom never cursed saying, youknow, damn was a curse word to
her.
And when the cancer went to herbrain, she started, I.
You know, saying not very nicethings and really her whole
personality changed at thatpoint.
And you were
Mandy (05:34):
just a kid.
Mm-hmm.
So, yeah.
Are you able at that age, evento like cognitively understand?
Because I feel like even as anadult, like probably for your
dad, this was hard to reconcileand know that this is the
disease, this is not her.
But as a kid it feels so much.
More personal or different, Ithink it's harder to like
(05:55):
separate those things.
Yeah.
And
Kelly (05:57):
my sisters were seven and a half and nine years older than
me.
And so at this point both of'emwere home.
They had both graduated collegeand just graduated just a couple
of months before my mom diedfrom college.
So I think I could understand,but I didn't wanna believe it
and I didn't wanna really engagewith the fact that what was
(06:19):
going on that summer when shegot really sick it, she died at
the end of July of ninety-four.
That summer I spent a lot oftime with friends.
I went to the.
Their beach houses.
I was out and about a lot, and Iremember my sisters being upset
about that, but I just couldn'tbe in the hospital all the time
and watching my mom decline likethat.
(06:40):
And my dad really wanted to usehospice services, but he just
didn't think the three of uscould handle having our mom die
in our home.
Yeah.
So unfortunately she did die inthe hospital and.
My sisters and I had gone to seeher.
My dad was at work, which iskind of crazy to even think
about that.
He was at work.
Yeah.
While this was all going on.
Because we were told she had aweek left to live.
(07:02):
And during that week, like.
I just thought, okay, if I keepfeeding her, she's gonna stay
alive.
And so I kept shoving food inher face and trying to get her
to eat.
And obviously that wasn't gonnamake a difference.
She died eight days later fromthat conversation that we had,
that we knew that that washappening.
And so we had gotten to see herfor the visiting hours because
(07:24):
at that time also hospitalslike.
You had your two-hour window andthat's all you were allowed to
be there.
I hope that that's different.
Crazy.
It's, I work at a hospital, Ipromise it's different.
Alright, good.
And we went into the hospitalthat day and her hands were blue
and her feet were blue.
Now I've worked at hospice, youknow, in my later in my, in my
career.
(07:45):
And so obviously I know whatthat meant.
And we asked one of the nurses,and the nurses wouldn't tell us
and really told us that thedoctor would have to call us.
So, so we,
Mandy (07:56):
yeah.
That's very different than howthey handle it now.
Kelly (07:59):
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah, so we left the hospitalthat day.
We went to the mall, which wasmy mom's favorite place, and I
believe that she died while wewere shopping in the Gap, which
is exactly what she would'vewanted for us because she loved
the gap.
Everybody that worked at the Gapknew my mom by name, and my mom
(08:20):
and one of our neighbors wouldgo pretty much every Wednesday
because that's when they wouldreduce.
The sales and she would go backwith her receipts and her things
that she bought the week beforeand then get'em even cheaper.
Smart.
Her, her and Mrs.
Powell would have these likejackets that they, they got for
us for like$3 like, so I thinkit's very fitting that my mom
(08:43):
probably died while we were inthe gap.
Aw.
And we wound up at theneighbor's home, a neighbor's
home that we were very close to,and my sister came running in to
tell us that she had receivedthe message on our answering
machine that our mom hadexpired.
Wow.
That's
Mandy (09:00):
the phrasing we
Kelly (09:01):
used.
Yep.
And I was like, she's not apiece of cheese.
Yeah.
And so that was, you know, thebeginning of a, of a very
difficult time in my life.
My, I don't talk a lot aboutthis, but my dad was an
alcoholic at the time.
Mm-Hmm.
So things were not good.
At our house.
And his drinking got worse andhe actually kicked my sisters
(09:24):
out about two months after mymom died.
So I was stuck at home with justhim and he'd be falling asleep,
you know, passing out drunk.
And it was so, not only did Ihave the grief of my mom being
gone, but then I was dealingwith my dad and not having my
sisters there.
Mandy (09:44):
Right.
You're trying to be the adult inthat situation.
As you're grieving'cause youjust lost your mom.
Kelly (09:50):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And I went to an all-girlsCatholic high school, which
unfortunately wasn't verysupportive and they actually
prayed for my father who died inthe very first school mass.
So all the girls were coming upto me that day asking me,
saying, oh, I'm so sorry aboutyour dad.
(10:11):
And I was like, it wasn't mydad.
It was my mom.
And.
Honestly, to be completelyvulnerable and honest.
I had told my dad several times,which obviously now I regret
that I wish it had been him thatdied instead of my mom, because
my dad was the, you know, heworked, he provided for us and
he drank, and so he wasn't thatnurturing, loving mom, like a
(10:34):
dad that like my mom was just,she was there, right?
She was our person and.
Mandy (10:41):
And I just wanna normalize that because I think
that's a very, very normalreaction after someone dies is I
think that's part of like what,not that I prescribed to, like
the stages of grief or anything,but Good.
Thank you.
Kelly (10:54):
Yeah.
Mandy (10:55):
But when you think about, like, you will give up at, I
mean, I remember I was like, Iwill give up anyone in my life.
To have my mom back because Ithink also the mother-daughter
bond is like so special.
Not for everyone.
Not everyone has a greatrelationship.
Mm-Hmm.
But it can be like one of themost special nurturing
relationships.
So, you know, as a kid you mightlook back at that and be like,
(11:18):
oh, I feel terrible that I like,thought that and said that.
But I also think for otherpeople listening to know that
like, those thoughts don't makeyou a bad person.
And that is like part of yourgrief coming out.
It's not.
It's not you putting value onthe people around you and
Exactly.
Weighing them against eachother.
Yeah, exactly.
And so a few months
Kelly (11:39):
after my mom died, it was in January, my dad's drinking
was probably at the all-time.
Worst.
And so I wrote him a letter andI left it on his dresser and I
told him that if he didn't stopdrinking, I was going to run
away.
I was really serious about that,and I don't really think I've
talked about this anywhere inpublic about this part, but he
(12:01):
showed up in my doorway of mybedroom and he said, I don't
have a problem, but I will stopdrinking.
And he did.
I think he was a bit of a, a drydrunk for a while because he
wasn't doing anything and acouple of years later,
thankfully the neighbor.
We were with at the time when wegot the notice that my mom died.
(12:21):
She helped him join AA.
And so my dad got into AA, stillparticipates in AA to this day.
Wow.
And so he's been sober througha, been sober for twenty-nine
years, but been in AA fortwenty-seven years, and I am so
proud of him.
And he shares with every year athis anniversary about that
(12:45):
letter that he received from me.
Wow.
And how much that changed hislife.
And I'm so proud of him.
I'm so proud of the changes I'veseen over these years.
It hasn't always been easy.
Yeah, we did.
We did a lot of familycounseling together and that
poor counselor, Margaret, oh, Ifeel so bad for her.
I mean, we'd be screaming ateach other and she's like.
(13:08):
She's like, I can't see you guystogether anymore.
Like, there's other people inthis building, like, you guys
are way too loud.
So we went through a lot.
Yeah.
But I'm very, I'm very gratefulfor the relationship we, we
still have today, so.
Wow.
Mandy (13:26):
And it comes from like this brave little girl who, you
know, is just a teenager andlost her mom and had the
wherewithal to write that letterand to sort of confront the
situation because I think.
As humans, sometimes we try toavoid that kind of stuff.
Mm-Hmm.
And avoid conflict or avoidtalking about the hard things.
So Wow, that's amazing.
(13:46):
What a great story.
And I'm so glad he's open aboutit and tells people that story.
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
Kelly (13:50):
I am too.
I'm very proud of him.
So, you know, obviously my griefwas.
I was a hot mess.
I cried myself to sleep mostnights.
I pulled away from a lot offriends.
I didn't feel very supportedfrom my new friends at school
because.
That was a new school to me, andI wasn't myself my freshman year
(14:11):
because my mom was dying andMm-Hmm.
I didn't really know how to fitin and how to act at that time.
And so, you know, after my momdied, I, I made some bad
decisions, like a lot ofteenagers and dated a boy that I
cringe thinking about right now.
We've all been there.
(14:32):
Yeah, it was bad.
I think my dad retired earlybecause of that, he knew he
needed to be home, but my dadwas smart enough to know that we
needed help and he got me tojoin a hospice grief support
group and.
He told me that there'd be boysat the group, which got me to
(14:54):
go.
That's great.
But of course there wasn't.
Darn.
Yeah, exactly.
But I walked into that room andthere was five other girls.
Who had all lost.
I believe they all had had theirfather's die.
But I still walked into thatroom and for the first time, I
didn't feel alone in my griefand I felt like I belonged and
(15:19):
that I wasn't the only persongrieving the death of a parent.
As a teenager.
And obviously now we know,right?
One in 12 children will have aparent or a sibling die by the
time they're 18 years old.
But at that time, I didn't knowanybody.
I was really the only one I feltlike.
And so that group changed mylife.
I met an amazing social workernamed Rini.
(15:39):
I also was the kind that Iwanted to leave every week with
another book.
I wanted to understand what Iwas going through, and I think
Rini probably ran out of booksto give me for teens because
like I just wanted to understandwhat was happening to me.
Yes.
And after I did a couple ofrounds of groups with her, she
asked me to start volunteeringwith the children's groups.
(16:00):
Aw.
And I remember some of thosekids still to this day.
And that's when I knew that thisis what I wanted to do with my
life.
And so I went and I got myundergraduate in social work and
my master's in social work.
I worked at a couple ofdifferent hospices and.
I find meaning in my grief everysingle day by the work that I
(16:22):
do, and now I'm in privatepractice and I specialize in
grief and loss and I know my momwould be so proud of me.
Something positive has come outof this Mm-Hmm.
Out of a huge loss thatobviously I would, I would do
anything to have her back.
But I truly believe I've beenable to help thousands of people
on their grief journey becauseof her death.
(16:44):
It's, such an
Mandy (16:45):
incredible.
Path that you took to get there.
And also, I just wanted to touchon the book thing because I
think that is sometimes I don'tknow if it's underutilized, but
I also found a lot of solace inreading other people's stories
who are similar to mine andrecognizing like, oh, it's not
just me.
I'm not the only one who thoughtthis crazy thought or, you know,
(17:07):
did this crazy thing and inreaction to what happened and.
I don't know.
It's still, I think things arebetter than probably when you
were a child and lost your momand it was very less talked
about, you know, more quietabout grief.
But we still have a long way togo and Absolutely.
I mean, I was in my twenties andI remember going to Barnes and
(17:29):
Noble and looking for booksabout grief and about losing
your mom.
And I felt, you know, there'slike a shame in that and, and I
was.
An adult buying a book in Barnesand Noble, but I was like almost
ashamed to buy those books andso, Mm-Hmm.
I think, you know, the workyou're doing, the work that this
podcast and others are doingexactly to put out there and say
(17:50):
like, it's okay.
And it actually probably willhelp you feel better to read
about other people's experience.
Mm-Hmm.
Wow.
So yeah, tell me more about yourwork and what you're doing and
do you work with kids now?
Kelly (18:04):
Kids and adults.
Yep.
So I do both and I volunteerwith the children's Bereavement
camp.
Oh.
So that I still stay in touchwith that and
Mandy (18:12):
love that.
But yeah, so I have my private
Kelly (18:15):
practice, greater life, Grief counseling.
I'm in upstate New York and I doindividual.
Where are you grief counseling?
I'm in Malta right outside ofSaratoga.
Oh my
Mandy (18:23):
gosh.
I am in Rochester right now, butI grew up outside of Albany, so
I grew up in the Detroit area.
Yeah, that's so crazy.
Oh, small
Kelly (18:31):
world.
Yeah.
But yeah, so I, I love doingindividual counseling, but I
love groups.
Groups or my passion.
That is something I offer yearround two groups every week.
Sometimes more.
Right now I'm doing amultifamily grief group and a,
I'm coping with the holidaysgrief group, but.
(18:52):
My favorite is Healing Strides.
And I would love to just mentionthis for a minute.
Yeah, of course.
So Healing Strides is somethingthat my friend Lisa and I
created several years ago when Iworked at an agency.
But we kind of were doing itwith teens and mindfulness, and
then when I made the transitionto private practice, I was like,
I'm only focusing on grief andloss now.
Like this is what I wanna do.
So we switched because herpassion is also grief and loss.
(19:12):
We actually met at the griefcamp.
Oh.
We were roommates.
And so our program, healingStrides is the first hour is a
traditional therapeutic griefgroup.
And then the second hour wetrain for a 5K race together
with, and we have a group ofmentors, volunteer mentors.
And then at the end of the sevensessions, we all run a 5K
(19:33):
together.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah.
I love this.
Yeah.
It's amazing that,
Mandy (19:41):
yeah.
You know, it's almost likecombining, I was a coach for
Girls on the Run.
I don't know if you Mm-Hmm.
Know about that organization.
Mm-Hmm.
Yep.
So that's like younger girls whoare in elementary school.
And then you learn skills abouthow to be a good friend and how
to be a good person and a human.
And then you're also likerunning too.
And then you run a 5K at theend.
So it's almost like you takethat and put it with something
(20:04):
really important that'shappening in their life.
And how incredible is that?
Because it also teaches not justkids, but adults too, that like
exercise and moving Exactly.
Can be incredibly healing inyour grief.
And it's something they can takewith them for the rest of their
lives.
Well, and I think it's also, youknow, when we're grieving,
Kelly (20:23):
it's so hard to be able to set a goal for ourself and to
see something, you know, futureoriented.
Mm-Hmm.
And so knowing that this is yourgoal that you're working
towards, and then crossing thatfinish line and watching there,
every race I cry on my way homefrom because it is.
So amazing to see these womenwho are dealing with such
(20:44):
significant losses and so muchgrief to be able to see them
push themselves every week ingroup and then outside.
And then to see them cross thatfinish line.
We had a seventy-one-year-oldwoman cross that finish line.
Oh wow.
And she came right up to me,gave me a huge hug, and she's
like.
Thank you.
She's like, this was always onmy bucket list to do and I
(21:05):
didn't know if I was gonna doit.
And then behind me was herdaughter and her granddaughter
with a sign holding up for hergrandma, and it was like, I just
like bust.
I just burst into tears.
At that point I was like, oh mygosh.
Like this is what it's about.
Yeah.
And so we actually now are doingan official research study on
the program
Mandy (21:26):
because that's what I was gonna ask.
I was like, is this beingreplicated elsewhere?
Kelly (21:29):
cause it should be.
Yes.
So that is our goal.
We got we got that approvedliterally the day before this,
the fall cycle this year, so,wow.
Thankfully.
And our goal is to be able toget this out to the masses
because it, from doing this fromyears and now a lot of our.
Mentors are actually pastparticipants that have come back
(21:52):
to volunteer their time.
Oh
Mandy (21:54):
my gosh.
This is like, and I feel likeyou're pulling different parts
of my world together talkingabout this, and it's so cool.
I.
I don't know how familiar youare with addiction recovery.
I know you mentioned your dad isin AA.
Yeah.
But my brothers both struggledwith addiction and there's a
local organization to me that isfocused on fitness as part of
your recovery journey.
(22:15):
Yeah.
And it's all like peer-led andpeer-supported.
And yeah, it's like, reminds mea little bit of this model.
Yeah.
And it literally changespeople's lives, like people are.
So different Absolutely.
After like, going through theseprograms.
So I, I'm just so excited thatyou're doing this kind of work
and that it, now you're gonnahave the research to back it up
and then it can just Exactly.
(22:36):
Spread like wildfire, hopefully.
Exactly.
Well,
Kelly (22:39):
and you know, we've been doing pre and post tests all
along and our results areamazing.
And that's what the, one of thementors, she's a psychologist,
she's like, Kelly, these resultsare really good.
Like, we need to do somethingwith this.
And I was like, okay, like, whatdo you wanna do?
She's like, we're, we're.
We're submitting an IRBproposal, like let's do it.
And I was like, okay.
Like wow.
Mandy (22:59):
Yeah.
I can see this definitely beingpresented at like a national
conference and then it, and thenit being modeled all over the
place.
Which it should be.
Yeah, exactly.
Sometimes I, sometimes I thinkthat we have therapy so
separated from other things thatcan help and like having that
integrated.
I don't know.
It just has a better impact.
(23:20):
Well, and the friendships thatthey form
Kelly (23:22):
with each other,'cause you know, they're sharing,
they're vulnerable and then theygo outside and they're moving
their bodies with these womenand to be able to be outside and
laugh.
And I, one of the post-testssaid, I never leave healing
strides without a smile on myface.
Wow.
Who says that about a griefgroup?
Yeah.
(23:45):
And, you know, in grief groups,nobody wants to have to go to a
grief group.
It's not a a group that anybodywants to have to be there.
But if you're gonna have to bethere and you can leave with a
smile on your face, then I feellike it was worth all of our
time.
Mandy (23:59):
How do you.
Advertise your program, and howmany people do you usually have
in a cohort?
Kelly (24:05):
So it depends.
You know, this past season wehad eight women.
The spring we had 14 women.
Wow.
So it, it just ranges.
A lot of'em, you know, couldpotentially be my clients.
But Word has definitely gottenout in the community about this,
so more and more therapists arereferring, and I've even heard
some school districts havetalked about it at like their
(24:27):
back to school night with their,their, with their teachers and
staff.
So it's getting out there and Ijust hope it continues to grow.
And Lisa, the running coach, istrying to get me to do a healing
Strides level two, where wewould do, a half marathon or a
10 K.
Yes.
And I'm like, oh, I, I don'tcall myself a runner.
(24:50):
I, I may run during healingstrides, but I'm not a runner.
And I'm like, oh my gosh, Idon't know if I can do that.
Lisa.
She's like, yes, you can.
I'm like, I don't know.
So I'll see what happens there.
I'm with her.
Mandy (25:00):
You could definitely do
Kelly (25:01):
it.
Mandy (25:02):
And how incredible would it be to do it with people who,
you know, you're there helpingand everybody is striving for
the same thing.
Kelly (25:09):
Yep, exactly.
Oh,
Mandy (25:11):
wow.
I love hearing about this.
It's so incredible.
All right.
What kind of advice do you giveto, to clients who are in this,
this space of like deep.
Kelly (25:23):
Well, I think first you have to lean into your grief.
You have to feel your grief.
Grief is something that you haveto feel.
You can avoid it all you want.
It will come back.
Mm-Hmm.
And I tell a story aboutsomebody that I know it took 30
years to come back, but it did.
And so it is really aboutsitting with a grief, feeling
it, obviously, yes, you need totake breaks from your grief.
(25:43):
Right.
But I'm a big, I'm a big fan ofthe dual process model, right?
That oscillation between lossoriented and restoration
oriented, and how throughout theday.
Even minutes, we can go back andforth between those two mm-Hmm.
And so, and I think griefgroups, I think in my opinion,
sometimes grief groups are moreeffective than individual
counseling.
(26:03):
Interesting.
And so I think that is to beable to have that network of
people where you can walk into aroom and if they ask you How are
you, you don't have to lie andsay, I'm okay.
They know you're not.
Okay.
And you can be like, today'sreally crappy, and that's okay.
Mm-Hmm.
And that they're able to holdthat space for you so you can be
(26:26):
vulnerable and honest.
And I always say the very firstnight of a grief group, you do
not need to apologize for cryingin here.
Right.
Because as soon as they startcrying, they, oh, I'm so sorry.
You are, if you can't cry in agrief group, where can you cry?
Right.
So it's.
I also think you have tosometimes do some trauma work.
(26:47):
Mm-Hmm.
I'm trained in EMDR inProgressive County and we tend
to get caught up on the death.
How they died, maybe if wewitnessed it or what we've
imagined in our brain happened,right?
So many people have heard enoughinformation that they've created
this like false memory in thebrain of what HA has happened,
and then we can't focus on theperson's life.
(27:08):
We are focusing on that death.
And so doing even one session ofprogressive counting one day can
really decrease that and getthem to be able to focus on
their loved one's life.
And I think that is so importantbecause, you know, our brains
are like Velcro to the bad andTeflon to the good, right?
(27:28):
So our brains are gonna wannastick to that ending, but that's
not how we wanna rememberpeople.
Mm-Hmm.
Right.
You know, and I did, when I gottrained in progressive counting,
I'm the kind that when I go tomy trainings, I'm gonna work on
all of my stuff because I'mlike, oh, this is free therapy.
Why not?
And so I did my mom's death, andwhen I got trained in
(27:49):
progressive counting 10 yearsago, I.
I was, I was a mess during thatsession, but I still, to this
day, 10 years later, it doesn't,when I think about my mom and
that bed and when she went afterseeing her when she died, I
don't have that reaction that Idid before doing that
Mandy (28:05):
work.
Wow.
Can you explain briefly whatprogressive counting is?
Yeah, so it is
Kelly (28:11):
a fairly newer trauma treatment resolution treatment.
It's been, obviously I gottrained in it 10 years ago, so
it's not that new, but it's justnot as well known as EMDR eye
movement, desensitizationreprocessing.
Mm-Hmm.
And you watch the memory like amovie in your mind, while the
therapist counts out loud, andyou keep doing that over and
over again.
(28:31):
You add more time each time, sothe movie gets longer.
And what happens is itdesensitizes you to that memory
and you're able to think aboutthat memory and not have that
emotional maybe, like for me,I'm a, I always get that feeling
in my stomach.
That's where I always knowsomething.
Like that's where I feel it.
So you can think about thatmemory, not get that feeling.
(28:54):
Anymore and that, and what Ihear so many of my clients say
is that after doing progressivecounting, they're not thinking
about that death scene anymore.
It's not coming up in their mindas much.
Maybe the flashbacks havestopped, maybe the intrusive
thoughts, maybe the nightmares.
And I find that even clientsthat don't even get down to the
(29:14):
zero for the suds, thesubjective units of distress are
still reporting a significantchange from one session to the
next.
Mandy (29:23):
Wow.
I love that you have such avariety of methods that it
sounds like you work withclients on.
I think, I mean, everyone'sdifferent, but I obviously went
to therapy after my mom and mybrother's death, and really the
only thing that I was offeredwas talk therapy.
And so I, I actually haveinterviewed a lot of people and
they, there are a lot ofdifferent modalities out there,
(29:45):
and I also don't think peoplerealize that.
And so if they're going to atherapist and the only thing
that's being offered is talktherapy, people don't even know
that they can ask about otheroptions.
And how do we find groups andhow do we find people that are
offering these different waysthat you can work through it?
Kelly (30:01):
I think one of the things that's really important to
mention is not every therapistis grief informed.
Mm-Hmm.
About 60% of therapists did nothave any education,
undergraduate or graduate schoolon grief and loss.
My social work department didnot offer that.
I went to the religiondepartment.
I went to the nursingdepartment.
'cause obviously I was interningto hospice.
(30:21):
Like I knew that this is what Iwanted to do with my life.
When you're seeking out atherapist.
Mm-Hmm.
Making sure that they arecomfortable because even
therapists, they're just notcomfortable with it.
They don't wanna work with griefand loss.
Finding a grief-informedtherapist is so important.
And also asking like, what doyou believe?
(30:43):
I, I cringe.
Well, I'm so glad you said aboutthe five stages,'cause that's
like my biggest pet peeve.
Yeah.
And I could get on a soapboxabout that for a minute.
I'll try not to, but yeah,that's fine.
They, it's not accurate, right?
And when therapists are tellingtheir clients about the five
stages, that is not helpful tothem.
It can make them think they'redoing their grief wrong.
And I, I will tell my griefgroups, if your therapist is
(31:04):
talking about the five stages,you may wanna consider looking
for a new therapist.
And I say finding a therapist islike finding a bathing suit for
a woman.
Sometimes the first one you tryon fits perfectly.
Sometimes you have to keeptrying'em on until you find the
right fit.
So if you are, your listenersare grieving and they're looking
(31:25):
for therapists, it's okay tochange if it's not a good fit.
Yeah, you have to find somebodythat's gonna be able to help you
and not keep you in therapyforever.
Mandy (31:35):
It doesn't.
I would also just add, because Iremember when I was looking for
a therapist, it doesn't matterif it says in their bio that
they focus on grief because.
They still might not be a greatfit, or you might be like,
exactly.
Maybe they don't know as muchabout grief as I had imagined,
or they're not the good, they'renot a good fit for me.
So I think it's saying it's okayto switch or when specialize in
(31:56):
everything.
Yes, yes.
They specialize in everything.
It was one, it was definitelyone of those.
Yeah.
Kelly (32:01):
I'm like really to really specialize in everything.
Right.
So, you know, one of the thingsthat I've always wanted to do
was write a grief book.
Mm-Hmm.
And last year I was approachedby somebody to be part of a
collaborative book, PolisticMental Health.
And I wrote about my mom's deathin that book.
And it was really interesting tome, twenty-eight years later to
(32:22):
see the grief that surfaced forme writing that chapter.
I mean, I talk about this allthe time.
Like, this is not nothing Right.
New, but to write it out likethat and to go back through some
of it, it was.
It was really interesting andjust a really good reminder that
grief isn't something we getover, but it is something we
learn to live with and integrateinto our lives, and so I'm
(32:43):
really excited to share that.
I decided to do my owncollaborative book, which will
be coming out in February, 2024.
Congratulations.
Thank you called the GriefExperience Tools for Acceptance,
resilience, and Connection.
And I am, I have to be honest, Iam so blown away with this book
because it's twenty-five authorsof all different kinds of grief.
(33:04):
Mm-Hmm.
So there's anticipatory grief,there's ambiguous loss, there's
traumatic grief, there'sdivorce, there's infertility
there.
My goal really was that whoeverpicks up this book is gonna be
able to relate to at least oneperson.
And I finally got the draft ofall the chapters two weekends
ago, and I sat down and read itand like bawled, like every
(33:24):
chapter is so amazing and sovulnerable.
And then also the authors sharea tool.
That has helped them on theirpersonal grief journey and also
can hopefully help the readers.
And so I really, I'm so excitedfor it to come out.
I think it's gonna be a reallygreat addition, like we've
talked about both of us, likeour grief books.
(33:45):
Yes.
And I'm really hoping that it'sgonna be one that can, people
can really benefit from andreally find it beneficial and
helpful.
Mandy (33:53):
And what's the name of the book again?
Kelly (33:55):
It's called The Grief Experience Tools for Acceptance,
Resilience and Connection.
Awesome.
Mandy (34:01):
You know, I too.
I find writing about our griefto be one of those other really
helpful mechanisms.
Mm-Hmm.
And it is a differentexperience.
'cause I've talked about mygrief a lot, but once I sat down
and wrote about it, I think youprocess it differently in your
mind.
And it is a little bit of goingback into it, which I think can
be difficult because in a wayit's like you're reliving that
(34:25):
experience as you write it.
But once I got it out onto thepage.
It definitely shifts.
I think it, it's like a healing.
It's very
Kelly (34:34):
healing.
Oh, it's so amazing.
Yeah.
And that's what I kind of warnedall of the authors about for
this book.
I was like, it's gonna bring upsome stuff like Mm-Hmm.
And so we did a lot of likecheck ins.
I offer breathwork sessions tothem after our chapters were due
and just to try to.
You know, give them some supportaround it because I know what I
went through last year andMm-Hmm.
(34:54):
And they did.
They were, it's'cause you're,especially a lot of these people
are therapists and they'resharing their really vulnerable
stories with the world.
And that part I think, freakedthem out the most was like, oh
my gosh.
Like my clients could read this.
Like the whole world could readthis.
And I was like, yeah, but howamazing that is.
Like, I think that's the bestpart about it, is your words are
(35:15):
gonna truly be able to helpsomebody.
And there's so many, everyauthor is so different in the
book.
It's, we have a medium, we havea funeral director, we have
somebody talking about the powerof prayer.
So everybody, like, I reallythink everybody's gonna be able
to relate to someone.
Mandy (35:33):
Wow, that's incredible.
I can't wait to get my hands onit and read it.
I like to have as many resourcesas I can available to like refer
people to.
So yeah,
Kelly (35:43):
that's perfect.
I hope you enjoyed listening toKelly share her story and her
years of wisdom when it comes tomoving through grief.
Links to her book and where youcan find her will be in the show
notes.
For today's journal prompt.
Write about the intersection ofyour grief and moving your body.
Let the writing take you in anydirection at Leeds.
(36:04):
Thank you so much for listening,please make sure you subscribe,
share this episode with anyonewho could benefit from it.
And as always.
Does it remember grams?
Anytime you need to send alittle love to someone who is
grieving.
Thank you and have a wonderfulday.
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