June 5, 2024 • 35 mins
Join us as Kelila Green- mom, surrogate, and pregnancy loss survivor- shares her story of surrogacy and grief. Kelila is host of the podcast, "Pushing Through Loss", a speaker, and founder of Ours and Yrs- a pregnancy loss survival toolkit.
You can connect with Kelila on Instagram @OursandYrs, or on Facebook @Kelila Beth Green, or on her website: www.kelilagreenspeaker.com
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Thank you so much for listening. Wishing you well on whatever trail you find yourself walking today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mandy (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast.
I'm your host Amanda Kernighanfrom Remembergrams, a small
business dedicated to helpingyou support those in your life
experiencing grief.
I hope you'll consider sendingsomeone a personalized card or a
grief support box.
Shipping within the U.
S.
is always free and we treat eachorder with special care, paying
attention to every detail.
(00:22):
Today on the podcast, we aretalking about the experience of
becoming a pregnancy surrogate,and what happens when grief
factors into that experience.
How do you reconcile your choiceto help with the demands it
makes on your body?
And what happens when theoutcome is not what anyone had
planned?
What happens when you Are leftto do the emotional work that
comes with grief for a baby youare growing for another couple
(00:46):
To walk us through thisexperience is kalila green a mom
a surrogate and a pregnancy losssurvivor She is founder of ours
and yours a pregnancy losssurvival toolkit a speaker and
host of the podcast pushingthrough loss Here's her story
Kelila (01:01):
So I had gotten married in 2010 and thankfully got
pregnant pretty much right away.
My daughter was born literallynine months.
minus a day to our wedding date.
And, and everybody before theyknew I was pregnant, everybody
warned me and they were like,it's going to take you a long
time to get pregnant.
Be careful.
Like it took me a long time.
This is my horror story.
(01:22):
This is my awful birth and laborstory.
And, and I, I've always lovedthat stuff.
I love anything that has to dowith pregnancy.
I love anything that has to dowith labor and delivery.
Ever since I was a kid, I'vejust been fascinated by the fact
that our bodies can do that.
It's incredible.
It really is.
So when I got pregnant rightaway, it was one of those that I
was like, thank God.
I just felt like that was what Iwas put here to do in a way.
(01:46):
Mm-Hmm.
and had a very easy time beingpregnant.
I didn't get any of the weirdsymptoms.
I didn't have preeclampsia, Ididn't have any sort of medical
conditions, and it was all.
By the book, totally smoothsailing, and I felt so blessed.
And then when we decided that wewanted to try and have our
second sort of the same thing,it took us a little bit longer.
I had been on I think I was onan IUD and they took it out and
(02:10):
it took us about six months tosort of understand what my
ovulation cycle was at thatpoint.
And it was, it was about 18months after my daughter had
been born.
So it was a decent amount oftime.
And then it took us a littlewhile and thank God again, when
I got pregnant, it was one ofthose where it was completely by
the book.
The only thing that we had anissue with was at the very end,
my doctor kept saying, thisbaby's going to be big.
(02:33):
And he went a week over my duedate.
And ironically, he was only,like, two ounces or something
more than my daughter.
So when he kept saying he wasgoing to be big, I was like, all
right, I'll believe it when Isee it.
And then when he wasn't eventhat much bigger than my
daughter was at a full weeklater, I was like, okay, so note
to self for next time.
Mandy (02:52):
Yeah.
I don't think those predictionsare ever very accurate.
Kelila (02:55):
No.
I've heard that from
Mandy (02:56):
so many people.
And I remember when I waspregnant, I don't think the
prediction they gave me was evenclose.
Kelila (03:02):
Yeah, and even down to the due date, like the due date
is a guess.
So the fact that I went a weekover was sort of like, well,
really, was it a week?
Was it less than a week?
Who knows?
It's as much as doctors know, Ifeel like they know very little.
Yes.
So then again, like my My sonwas about 16 or 17 months old,
and I thought, you know what,I'd really love to have another,
(03:24):
my husband was on board, and ittook me, again, about six months
to get pregnant, and the thirdtime around, same thing,
everything was completelynormal, no preeclampsia, no
swelling, no morning sickness,nothing of the sort, and He was
actually a week early and Iremember saying to my husband
while I was a labor, I was like,I feel cheated out of a week of
pregnancy.
(03:46):
My husband was like, you'recrazy.
And he was, he was my hardestlabor and delivery.
I was in labor with him for justover 19 hours.
And it took me, I went intolabor about 5 o'clock in the
morning and it took me untillike 6.
30 that night to finally say,okay, I've had enough, I need an
epidural.
And with my daughter, when Igave birth to her, I also, I
(04:08):
went about 13 hours without anepidural.
And at that point, once I gotthe epidural, my body just
relaxed and I gave birth to herabout an hour and a half later.
With my third, he was like, no,no, I I'm, I'm good.
And he stayed in, I got itaround six 30 and he wasn't born
until just after midnight.
So even with the epidural, itwas still a little bit longer.
(04:28):
But again, totally easy, totallyfine.
I felt like it was my superpowerand I was like, I can grow
humans like that.
So at the time, my husband and Ilived in Los Angeles, and it was
obviously very expensive interms of, of quality of life,
and I really wanted to bepregnant again, but I wasn't
really ready to say that Iwanted to have another child,
(04:50):
and so we started looking intosurrogacy.
Because I thought that if, if Ihad such an easy time being
pregnant, then how could I notlook into being able to do that
for someone else?
And my husband and I are bothreligious, we're, we're Orthodox
Jewish.
And it was something that we hadto discuss with the rabbis to
find out what it then meant formy children.
(05:12):
How were they related, if atall?
Was it genetically related orwas it I don't know.
religiously related?
Did the laws of the Torah applyto surrogacy?
How did that affect this?
And it's so crazy to think that,you know, the Torah was written,
whether you think it's writtenby man or by God, it was written
over 2000 years ago.
And it still applies to today,like the rabbis can still garner
(05:33):
information and say, Oh, look,we have IVF, and we have
surrogacy, and we have adoption,and we can still figure out what
those laws mean for 2023, or atthe time, you know, 2018.
So we got all the informationand it turned out that we could
in fact be surrogate parents.
It had to be for a Jewish familybecause any baby that I then
(05:54):
birth becomes a Jewish baby.
And so I would give it to aJewish family or give it, I
guess, back to a Jewish family.
And I ended up finding through avast series of, of what I felt
like.
really God talking directly tome, the right couple.
(06:14):
And we connected over Zoomthrough the fertility agency
that they had gone through, or Iguess the surrogacy agency they
had gone through.
And instantaneously we werelike, that's the right couple.
And they wanted to meet us inperson.
So they came out to LA and wejust hit it off.
We just felt like we had knowneach other forever.
And I ended up getting pregnantin the end of February of 20.
(06:36):
19 and then gave birth inDecember of 2019.
It was, it was an incredibleexperience.
It was one of those where thefirst question people ask me is
always, what was it like givingup a baby?
And I, in my head, Iautomatically think I didn't
give up a baby.
It wasn't anything right.
Because first of all, evengetting pregnant, you have to go
(06:57):
through the whole IVF process,which is not something I had
ever experienced with my ownpregnancy.
So even from the start, I feltlike I knew this wasn't mine.
I knew that it was their embryo.
It was something that I wascomfortable with.
I had discussed it with mytherapist.
I discussed it with my husband.
So it wasn't like I was giving ababy up.
I was really giving it back,which felt incredible.
(07:20):
So even while I was in laborwith that baby the parents and I
both are all agreed that wewanted to try again.
And again, my husband wasn'tlike, you're a nut.
And he's like, I think theparents at one point said to me
while I was trying, pushing thebaby out.
Like, are you sure you'repushing our child out and you
still want to do this again?
And I was like, yes, I love it.
(07:41):
So with, with COVID, it was alittle bit of like a mixed
blessing where we couldn'treally do anything because I had
to let my body rest and heal andrecover from carrying a baby and
giving birth to then saying,okay, well, we need to figure
out the unknowns.
The doctors have a lot to figureout with how COVID affects the
mom, how COVID affects the baby,all that kind of stuff.
Kind of stuff.
So in January of 2022, I wasgiven the green light to be able
(08:06):
to go ahead and do IVF one moretime.
And I went in in May for thetransfer and everything was
going great.
When you're pregnant with asurrogate baby, they treat it
like a high risk pregnancy.
So you have to go in every weekfor the first trimester to make
sure.
Yeah, that the baby implantedproperly and that the heartbeat
is strong and that it's growingnormally and all that kind of
(08:27):
stuff.
And everything indicated thatthe baby was doing great.
And I graduated from the highrisk doctor and got moved to my
doctor at, I think theyconsidered it full first
trimester at 10 weeks.
And I'd moved over and I wentfor a 10 week checkup and then I
went for a 12 week checkup.
And then they said, okay, comeback at 16 weeks.
That's when we would normallysee you anyway.
So we scheduled that.
(08:47):
And at 16 weeks and five days, Iwent in.
I thought I was going in for anormal checkup.
I even had all three of my kidswith me thinking we were going
to get to see the baby'sheartbeat and get to be able to
see on the ultrasound.
And we get into the appointmentroom and thank God for
technology because my kids wereon their iPad and we're not
paying attention at all.
And the nurse I was getting thislook on her face like I can't
(09:10):
find the heartbeat with Doppler.
And at first I, because this wasmy fifth pregnancy, it was one
of those where I sort of, yousort of know, right?
You get to that point where, youknow, the normal things, you
know, okay, sometimes I knowit's difficult to find the
heartbeat and I wasn't panickingyet, but when I looked at her
face after a few minutes and shesaid, I think I'm going to go
get the doctor.
(09:30):
That's when my heart startedracing.
And the doctor came in.
And said, I want you to go rightto the next examination room
where the ultrasound machine is.
And at that moment, I, I just, Isort of had that instinct of
knowing, but I was really tryingto deny it.
And I said to my kids, okay,we're just moving to the next
room.
And my daughter, who at the timewas 11, perked up and was like,
(09:52):
why?
I said, they're just going tocheck everything with the
ultrasound.
So my boys happily went to thenext room.
They didn't care.
And I laid down on the table andthey put the ultrasound machine
on.
wand on my belly and in secondsthe nurse like looked at me and
shook her head and I was likeWhat?
What?
I need words.
(10:13):
And she said, I can't find aheartbeat.
And I, I, I don't know.
I think I, I was just in shock.
I didn't really process what wasgoing on.
I couldn't quite comprehend whatshe was saying, but I sort of
knew what she was saying all atthe same time.
And, and I kept thinking in myhead, what do you mean there's
no heartbeat?
Of course there's a heartbeat.
Like I, I was having pregnancysymptoms yesterday and today and
(10:36):
my belly is still growing andhow could there not be a
heartbeat?
And she said The baby ismeasuring smaller than 16 weeks,
which is where you should benow.
And there's no heartbeat.
I, you either, I need to callthe doctor or you need to go to
the hospital.
And the doctor came in andstarted going over everything
and he started checking and heconfirmed that there was no
heartbeat.
And I said, so what, what do Ido?
(10:59):
I like, I needed everything laidout step by step.
My daughter at that point hadcome over and Realize something
was up and she put her hand onmy shoulder and she said, is
everything okay?
And I just started shaking myhead and and sobbing.
And the doctor said, do you needto call your husband to come
pick you up?
Do you need, you need to go tothe hospital, but you also need
to get a bag because we don'tknow how long you're going to be
(11:21):
in the hospital for.
So I remember calling my husbandand, and just not even being
able to get the words out.
He asked me if he needed to comepick me up and I said, no, I, I
think I can make it home.
I don't know how I made it home,but I know I did.
I got my kids in the car.
I remember talking to my mom, Italked to my husband and the
(11:41):
parents were in a meeting.
So I had left them a textmessage saying, call me or
something along those lines.
And as I put my hand on mydoorknob to my front door, the
mom's name popped up on myphone.
And and I.
Picked it up and just startedsobbing and and I don't I'm not
(12:01):
even sure if I open the door Ithink I sort of collapsed in
front of the door and my husbandcame out and saw me and Guided
me inside and I just remembersitting at the foot of my bed.
Like I don't know what to say Idon't know what to do.
I know I'm I need to be therefor her But she also I want her
to be there for me and this isher baby, but I'm the one
growing it There were so manythings that were swirling in my
(12:22):
head So I don't remember howlong I was on the phone with her
for, but I know that I ended upgoing to the hospital.
My husband asked me if I wantedto have my kids go to someone's
house, or if he wanted me, or ifhe wanted him to stay with the
kids.
And I said, honestly, I thinkit's better if you stay with the
kids because I know that I cantake care of me.
(12:45):
The doctors and the nurses aretaking care of me.
And I don't know what to do withmy kids if they're now dropped
off at a house and they're like,what's going on?
But now we don't have eitherparent with us.
So he went home with them.
I got checked in and they gaveme mesopropanol to start labor.
And It took about 24 hours forit to actually kick in and start
(13:08):
working.
And I had the baby the next day,but then I was
Mandy (13:13):
alone without your husband.
Kelila (13:15):
Yeah.
Mandy (13:16):
Oh,
Kelila (13:17):
but, but I had the most incredible team of nurses where
I knew, I knew I needed myhusband home with the kids.
Like to me, that was morecomforting than having him
there.
But the, the nurse that was withme, I had two, incredible
nurses.
One's name was Angela, and Iremember her name because I kept
thinking she's such an angel.
And the other one, I think hername was Sharon.
(13:38):
And the only reason I rememberthat one is because that's my
best friend's sister's name.
And she was so similar to mybest friend that every time she
squeezed my hand, I keptthinking my best friend is here
in the room with me, even thoughshe lives across the country
from me.
So thank God for them, becauseif I didn't have those two
nurses, I would not have made itthrough in one piece, I think.
Mandy (13:59):
So, the parents who you were being a surrogate for, this
is the same couple that you werea surrogate for for the previous
pregnancy?
Kelila (14:07):
Yeah.
Mandy (14:08):
So you had like a long term relationship with them?
Kelila (14:11):
Yeah.
Mandy (14:11):
And were they present for the first birth?
Kelila (14:14):
They were.
They flew out to LA.
We don't live in the same state.
And so they came to LA where Ihad the first baby about two
weeks before my due date.
So they were both in the roomfor most of the labor.
The husband stepped out while Iactually pushed.
But then he came in, the doctorcovered me up and he came in to
cut the cord.
(14:34):
And then once I had done that, Ithink once I had delivered the
placenta, he then was allowedinto the room in general, but
they were not there when I wentto the hospital this time.
Mandy (14:45):
Oh, that's so hard because you're so far away.
They don't, I'm sure they almostdidn't even have an option to
get there.
Kelila (14:52):
No.
And, and it was so quick that itwasn't like there was time for
them to get there anyway.
And it, and I think like peopleoften say when I tell them my
husband wasn't in the room forthe first.
Surrogate birth either.
I'm like, he's, he's useless inthe delivery room.
We had such a strong team ofpeople for the first birth.
I had my doula.
I had my best friend.
I had the mom.
I had my doctor and the nurseslike he would have been totally
(15:14):
useless.
So that's sort of where my brainwent.
Also, when I had to be rushed inbecause he likes to look at the
machines and he likes to askquestions where I'm just like,
just let me do what I need todo.
I just need to, you know, Getthe baby out and and that's it.
Like, I don't need all the extrastuff.
Mandy (15:33):
Do you think that if the pregnancy had been yours and
your husband's pregnancy that hewould have, that you would have
wanted him there?
Kelila (15:40):
Probably.
For the
Mandy (15:41):
experience.
Kelila (15:42):
Probably.
Because he was there for everyone of our own children's birth.
And I think that if it was, Ourown that I was that I had lost.
I think he would have feltdifferently about being in the
room.
Also, whereas he knew it wasmore important for him to be
home with our kids and not with.
Trying to figure out whatbecause again, like we didn't
(16:04):
have to figure out any of theafter care for the baby We
didn't have to figure outautopsy or or Burial or or
anything like that?
That was all up to the parentsSo the only thing that I really
had to do is make sure that theywere Up to date and understood
what was going on so that wecould they could then
communicate what their wisheswere.
Mandy (16:26):
Okay.
So the parents were able tochoose to get memorial.
Kelila (16:30):
Yeah,
Mandy (16:31):
after the birth and everything.
Kelila (16:32):
Yeah.
And so I was in the hospital for2 full days.
I ended up having to go in for aDNC also because.
My placenta wasn't detachingfrom the wall of my uterus, so I
was losing too much blood andthey said we have to put you
under and I just rememberthinking as I was getting put
under, a long time ago, I had mytonsils taken out, but I had, I
(16:53):
was, I was in my early 20s andit was one of those where the
nurse, as I was getting putunder said to me, if you think
about happy things, then you'lldream about happy things and
you'll wake up Feeling happier.
So I remember at the time I wasdating my husband and I kept
just saying his name in my headand I remember waking up being
like, I had such a good dream.
(17:14):
So this time I was like, okay,I, I just need to keep repeating
my kid's names and my husband'sname.
And even though I was in such adark place, I knew that if I
kept saying their names, itwould stay there.
still give me a little bit of anedge to feel better.
And when I woke up again, thisis where my nurses were
absolutely incredible becausethe nurse let me keep my phone
up until the last second of megoing under.
(17:36):
So I was able to talk to myhusband almost as I was going to
sleep.
And then she was there with myphone, right?
When I woke up and said, do youwant to call your husband?
And, and that to me just meantthe world because I was like,
even though he's not here, Istill feel like we're connected
in that way.
Which I don't know that sheshould have done or shouldn't
have done, but whatever it was,I was grateful for that moment.
Mandy (17:57):
Yeah.
Wow.
So after this all happened andyou were able to leave the
hospital and go home and startrecovering your body physically,
what was the experience for youemotionally knowing that you
were.
Pregnant as a surrogate and howdo you think that was different
or how does it I know youhaven't had a pregnancy loss of
(18:21):
your and your husband's.
So I guess you can onlyspeculate but I'm curious as to
how that might impact the kindof grief that you're feeling did
you feel like you failed theparents and feel any kind of
guilt in that way.
Kelila (18:36):
100%.
I.
I asked every what if.
I felt like it was completely myfault.
I went through every singlething I ate.
I went through every singlething I did.
I went through every, every,even person I talked to, or, or
trail I walked, or car ride Ihad, or whatever, to be like,
was that too bumpy?
Did I do this wrong?
(18:57):
Did I eat this?
Did I not do that?
Did I forget my prenatal vitaminon that day?
Or, or whatever it was.
Every little thing I felt like,I had to find a reason, because
there was no reason.
It's not even like the doctorsfound a reason in the end
anyway.
And so I 100 percent felt likemy body had failed me.
And it's weird to think now,because this, the statistic is
(19:18):
that one in four pregnancieswill end in a loss.
And so that was my fifthpregnancy.
So I felt like I was alreadysort of going against the
statistic.
And then now that I'm, I'm partof it, I was like, Oh, I'm
really not immune to it.
It's not like you can just floatby and say, no, there's a reason
(19:38):
those statistics exist and, and,and you can't ignore them.
So it, it was, it was rough.
The first few weeks, I wasdefinitely a mess.
I deep.
Dived into the internet,Pinterest, every sort of form of
article I could read aboutmiscarriage and loss and what to
do afterwards and who to talk toand who to find.
(20:00):
And there just wasn't a lot ofinformation.
There was one resource that I amso grateful for that my hospital
gave me and it was sort ofalmost an off handed resource.
packet that they gave me andsaid, you can go through this
when you're ready.
And one of the numbers that wasin there was a therapist who had
also experienced a stillbirth.
His wife had given birth at 32weeks, and so he had started a
(20:25):
group called Heal, and he gets,I think it's two or three times
a year, and so he's able to gettogether a group, almost like,
like a pregnancy loss supportgroup, but it's seven weeks, and
you have to commit to everysingle week, and it's a two hour
long class.
Where we did it all on zoom,fortunately, it was people that
are all in the area.
(20:46):
So I've met some of them since,but we were able to really
understand each other in a waythat you just don't feel like
the rest of the world can.
And he said, one of the thingsthat he experienced when he was
driving home from the hospitalafter his wife gave birth, which
I think each of us related towas.
He had lost his child and theworld just kept going.
(21:08):
And he was like, I don'tunderstand how nobody else is
angry, how nobody elseunderstands the pain I'm going
through.
And, and I am so alone in thismoment.
And I think that was where eachof us said, Oh, my gosh, that is
exactly how I felt.
But if you felt that, thenobviously we're not alone in
that moment.
And it, this group was one thatwe still, we have a text chain
(21:31):
that we're all still close witheach other.
There has been subsequent birthsin that text.
And that group since and it's sowonderful to see life
continuing, but to still be ableto honor the babies that we know
aren't here that you don'tnormally get to do with just
your regular group of friends.
So that resource in and ofitself was a godsend.
(21:51):
I don't know that if, you know,with all of my other research
and the things even that I'vecreated, if I didn't have that,
I don't know that I would bewhere I am now because of the
growth that I was able toaccomplish through that.
Mandy (22:03):
Yeah, I think the The support that you can get from
other people who've had similarlosses is You can't compare it
to anything else because there'ssomething so profound in just
talking to someone who canhonestly say, I get it.
And they really do, because eventhough everyone's experience is
a little bit different, thereare some real commonalities when
(22:26):
you have a certain type of loss.
And I do think there's a bigstigma about joining groups
specifically support groups,people feel weird about it, but.
I've talked to so many people onthis podcast and a lot of people
bring up support groups and thenthey have the most incredible
experience and meet people thatbecome friends and become a part
(22:47):
of their life from, from thatpoint on.
And so I always want to try andemphasize that it's okay to join
a support group.
And it doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with you and it
doesn't mean you're not grievingcorrectly or that you're stuck.
And you know, it, it, It mightnot be for you, but give it a
try because it might be, and itmight be something that, you
(23:07):
know, really helps you like yousaid, you don't think you would
be where you are today and yourentire process if it weren't for
that group.
So,
Kelila (23:14):
exactly.
And I think that it's somethingwhere even because I started my
own podcast since and the firstinterview I had was actually
somebody from the group, andthere were things that she.
told me in the podcast interviewthat she didn't even share with
the group at the time.
And I thought, Oh my gosh, ifyou had shared this with
everybody, it's, it's also oneof those where you don't feel so
(23:35):
crazy because you don't feellike.
my grief is any worse or betteror that you're doing things that
are weird or if you had this onethought that nobody else had
that thought or if you did thisone thing that made you feel
better that nobody else ever didthat and you're like, no,
everybody else is going throughthe same thing.
So when she shared those bits ofinformation, I was like, Oh my
(23:56):
gosh, this is priceless.
Mandy (23:57):
Yeah, I love that.
So Yeah, what have you donesince all of this happened, and
how does your life lookdifferent?
You mentioned that you have apodcast now,
Kelila (24:07):
I do.
So it's been a year and a half,and I, I'm a DIYer, so anything
that I can Get my hands on.
I realized I was reorganizing mydesk a few months ago, and I was
looking over all of my projects.
And I was like, Oh, each of mystress points.
I can point to exactly whichthing I picked up to be like, I
(24:27):
can learn to knit.
I can learn to crochet.
I can learn to do whatever itwas that I was like, I'm
stressed out.
I need to DIY.
So that is what I dove into.
And I figured I found all theseamazing resources.
through this heel group, throughmy deep dive in the internet,
through other therapists thatI'm friendly with, through
(24:48):
friends that I know who havegone through therapy.
And even one of the thingsthat's one of my absolute
favorite activities is somethingthat my best friend's daughter
taught me a long time ago thatI've implemented with my own
kids.
And it's something that's noteven necessarily a healing tool,
but it's just a great resourceto have.
So with all of that, I created apregnancy loss toolkit.
(25:08):
And the resource that I alwaystalk about the most, which is
that one that my best friend'sdaughter taught me was she
creates a grid for the year.
It doesn't matter where youstart in the year.
You could start on January 1stor wherever, but you create a
box for all 365 days and youlabel each emotion that you
could feel with a differentcolor.
(25:29):
So, I always like to do anger isred, blue is happy, purple is
calm, things like that.
And every day, the end of theday, you color in that square
that corresponds to the day withthe color of the emotion that
you felt.
as an overwhelming feeling.
And sometimes it could be, okay,you split the box in half and
(25:49):
you say, well, in the morning, Iwas feeling this emotion, but
towards the end of the day, Ireally had switched.
And sometimes it is one emotion,but you can look back on it and
you can see each individual day.
And in the process of grief, itreally helped me understand that
every day was separate from thenext, because as you know, when
When you're going throughsomething like that, everything
(26:10):
sort of melts together and weeksturn into months that could turn
into years.
And the next thing you know, youturn around, you're like, what
just happened to the last fewyears of my life?
So this was a great resourcethat I really felt like
separated each day.
And I could look back and say,Literally a tapestry of the last
few weeks.
What overwhelming emotion was Ifeeling?
(26:31):
Was I feeling like more dayswere better?
Was I feeling like more dayswere bad or whatever it was?
And I could reach out and gethelp if I felt like there was
more bad days as opposed to gooddays.
Mandy (26:42):
Yeah.
And I love that it can give youa bird's eye view because
progress can be so slow andhealing can take so long that
sometimes you feel like I'mnever going to be happy again
and I'm never going to have gooddays, but as you see more and
more show up in your grid andthe colors start to change a
little, that I think can givepeople hope like, Oh, you know,
maybe I am working my waythrough it.
Kelila (27:04):
Right, right.
And some days you'll say, Oh,yesterday was a really awful
day.
But you know what?
Today, I actually had somereally great moments.
So maybe I can put that I wasfeeling more happy today.
So it is, it is a total bird'seye view.
And it's like I said, it's notan exercise that I ever got.
originally from going throughany sort of traumatic
experience.
It was something that my bestfriend's daughter had found and
(27:25):
I was like, I love that.
I need to include that.
So in the toolkit, there's awhole workbook with various
different activities like thatone.
There's some journalingexercises and some coloring in
general.
And just some affirmations in aspace to write your own
affirmations in your own words.
And there's also just some itemsin the toolkit itself to make
you feel like you're getting ahug from somebody who cares with
(27:47):
some chocolate and a mug and Aneye mask and things like that.
And then I, I became a speakerbecause I want to be able to
help other people.
I think that the whole point ofme going through this was that I
realized everybody goes throughlife and and sort of accumulates
their own traumas andaccumulates their own baggage.
And my feeling is, is that it'sall about how you learn to carry
(28:09):
it.
That makes you who you are.
It shouldn't define you, but itcan be a part of you.
And if you can get to thatunderstanding, There's so much
healing on the other sidebecause you do have to continue
living just because the baby'snot here doesn't mean that my
life ends, and I can't live inthat wallow and that grief and
that sorrow constantly, ofcourse, I still hurt and of
(28:31):
course I still feel like, oh mygosh, what if I did this and
what if I did that, but I'mnever going to.
Live if I continue to live inthe what ifs.
Mandy (28:40):
Right.
Kelila (28:41):
And so I sort of switched it and I say, I have to
look at the what nows becauseotherwise I will go into a hole
that will, I will never get outof.
And so that's where I, I movedinto that speaking role.
And then I thought, well, if I'mgoing to do keynote speaking, I
really want to be able to justtalk to other people who've had
(29:01):
a similar experience.
learn from them also.
So I started my podcast.
And It goes into my story firstas to the basics of what
happened in my loss, but moreimportantly, I want to talk to
other people to give them aspace to talk about their own
pregnancy loss and to understandalso like what you're doing, how
they learn to live and how theylearn to thrive afterwards.
Mandy (29:23):
Wow.
I think that's incredible.
And, you know, one part of that,something that's definitely
helped me in my process, and Ican see it seems to be similar
for you, but once you get to apoint where you're feeling okay,
and you are living your life, Ithink that process of giving
back to the community that isbehind you, so they are in new
(29:47):
loss and, and in deep grief andreally, you know, In that
struggling phase that we havebeen through, I think there's an
incredible power in giving backto that and finding ways to
support people who are therebecause we know how hard it is.
And so everything that you'redoing, things that I'm doing,
that is my way of saying, like,you can make it through this.
(30:10):
I've made it through this andI'm going to try to reach a
handout to those people who arethere and help guide them
forward.
And I've seen a lot of people onthis podcast who do similar
things where you find purposein, in helping others.
And I think it's a, it's animportant part of healing that
we always see.
Kelila (30:30):
And it's interesting, because I always say, like, to
my kids, it's sort of a, I sayit on a lesser degree, because
thank God they have pretty goodlives, but whenever they tell me
that they can't fall asleep atnight, I say to them, has there
ever been a night that you'veever stayed up all night?
And it's sort of the same thingthrough survival.
Has there ever been anything youhaven't survived?
Because otherwise you wouldn'tbe here.
(30:52):
It's one of those where goingthrough it is awful.
And it's something where I'velearned, you really have to feel
the emotions.
You can't just keep pushing themdown because it's just going to
make you feel worse.
Not just emotionally, butphysically I've seen it so many
times where it's affected peoplein a physical way.
And if you can really understandwhere your emotions are coming
(31:14):
from and let them.
Be what they will be.
It will hurt in the moment, butit will feel so much better on
the other side.
Mandy (31:24):
I love that.
And I just have one morequestion for you.
I'm thinking about the fact thatyou've been a surrogate twice
and once was a successfulpregnancy.
And once you had this loss andit impacted both you and the
birth parents.
And so to anyone out there who'sconsidering surrogacy, do you
think your experience will scarepeople away from that
(31:46):
experience?
And what would you tell peoplewho are considering surrogacy,
knowing that any pregnancy hasthe possibility of ending in a
pregnancy loss?
And, and with your firstexperience, did it, do you still
feel like it was worth what youhad to put your body through and
the emotional work that you hadto do after your loss?
What can you say to people whomight consider being a
(32:08):
surrogate?
Kelila (32:10):
I think that if, if you Do you love being pregnant?
Then being a surrogate is one ofthe best things you could
possibly do it.
I don't look at it in any way,shape or form as something that
I regret doing.
I look at it as I brought a lifeinto this world that has an
amazing family that has anamazing loving home.
(32:32):
I felt like I gave birth to mynephew and not my child.
So it's a differentrelationship.
And even after I had had theloss.
I was still working through itwith my husband and saying, you
know, should we do surrogacyagain?
If they want me to be asurrogate and try one more time,
is that possible?
Emotionally, I think I'm okaywith it, but I don't know if I'm
(32:52):
ready for it.
And like I said before, at thebeginning, this journey was such
a thing that I felt like wasguided by the hand of God.
But even as the last thing thatthe doctor said when they told
me I actually wasn't allowed tobe a surrogate anymore, I was
like, you know what?
That's a decision that I, that Ifeel like God is making the
decision for me and saying thateven if you know, you would want
(33:16):
to, I think that it's, it's timeto be okay with the fact that
you're done.
And so if anybody else ever hasquestions, I'm always here to
answer questions aboutsurrogacy.
I think it's a beautiful gift.
You can give to someone.
I think that there's so manythings, like I said before, that
doctors understand aboutscience.
And yet there's so It's a vast,vast amount of knowledge that
(33:37):
they have no clue on.
And so if you're diagnosed withunknown infertility, you, you
have no answers and you havenowhere to turn.
And surrogacy is one of thosethat can give you something that
you can't give yourself.
Mandy (33:48):
That's great.
And actually that's the perfectsegue to ask, how can people
reach out to you?
I know you said you don't mindpeople reaching out.
So how can people reach out toyou and what is the name of your
podcast again, and any otherinformation that you want to
give listeners?
Kelila (34:03):
I am on all the socials and Instagram, it's actually my
company name, so it's Ours andYours.
Ours is spelled normally O U R SA N D, but Yours is actually my
daughter's initial, so it's Y RS.
Mandy (34:16):
Oh, cool.
Kelila (34:17):
Yeah, and then my my Facebook name is Kalila Beth
Green, which is my name.
My website isKalilaGreenspeaker.
com.
And the podcast is calledPushing Through Loss, and it's
on all of the various differentpodcast forums, Spotify, Apple,
all those good things.
I hope you felt inspired byKalila's story and feel
(34:39):
empowered to reach out to herdirectly for support.
You may notice in your podcastapp that we have a new feature
called Fan Mail, where you cantext the show with your
questions, comments, orreactions.
We'd love to hear from you, andwe will reply in our next
episode if you do.
As always, thank you so much forlistening.
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
(34:59):
who could benefit from it.
And as always, visitRememberGrams anytime you need
to send a little love to someonewho is grieving.
Thank you, and have a wonderfulday.
Hello and welcome back to the Grief Trails podcast.
I'm your host Amanda Kernighanfrom Remembergrams, a small
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(00:22):
Today on the podcast, we aretalking about the experience of
becoming a pregnancy surrogate,and what happens when grief
factors into that experience.
How do you reconcile your choiceto help with the demands it
makes on your body?
And what happens when theoutcome is not what anyone had
planned?
What happens when you Are leftto do the emotional work that
comes with grief for a baby youare growing for another couple
(00:46):
To walk us through thisexperience is kalila green a mom
a surrogate and a pregnancy losssurvivor She is founder of ours
and yours a pregnancy losssurvival toolkit a speaker and
host of the podcast pushingthrough loss Here's her story
Kelila (01:01):
So I had gotten married in 2010 and thankfully got
pregnant pretty much right away.
My daughter was born literallynine months.
minus a day to our wedding date.
And, and everybody before theyknew I was pregnant, everybody
warned me and they were like,it's going to take you a long
time to get pregnant.
Be careful.
Like it took me a long time.
This is my horror story.
(01:22):
This is my awful birth and laborstory.
And, and I, I've always lovedthat stuff.
I love anything that has to dowith pregnancy.
I love anything that has to dowith labor and delivery.
Ever since I was a kid, I'vejust been fascinated by the fact
that our bodies can do that.
It's incredible.
It really is.
So when I got pregnant rightaway, it was one of those that I
was like, thank God.
I just felt like that was what Iwas put here to do in a way.
(01:46):
Mm-Hmm.
and had a very easy time beingpregnant.
I didn't get any of the weirdsymptoms.
I didn't have preeclampsia, Ididn't have any sort of medical
conditions, and it was all.
By the book, totally smoothsailing, and I felt so blessed.
And then when we decided that wewanted to try and have our
second sort of the same thing,it took us a little bit longer.
I had been on I think I was onan IUD and they took it out and
(02:10):
it took us about six months tosort of understand what my
ovulation cycle was at thatpoint.
And it was, it was about 18months after my daughter had
been born.
So it was a decent amount oftime.
And then it took us a littlewhile and thank God again, when
I got pregnant, it was one ofthose where it was completely by
the book.
The only thing that we had anissue with was at the very end,
my doctor kept saying, thisbaby's going to be big.
(02:33):
And he went a week over my duedate.
And ironically, he was only,like, two ounces or something
more than my daughter.
So when he kept saying he wasgoing to be big, I was like, all
right, I'll believe it when Isee it.
And then when he wasn't eventhat much bigger than my
daughter was at a full weeklater, I was like, okay, so note
to self for next time.
Mandy (02:52):
Yeah.
I don't think those predictionsare ever very accurate.
Kelila (02:55):
No.
I've heard that from
Mandy (02:56):
so many people.
And I remember when I waspregnant, I don't think the
prediction they gave me was evenclose.
Kelila (03:02):
Yeah, and even down to the due date, like the due date
is a guess.
So the fact that I went a weekover was sort of like, well,
really, was it a week?
Was it less than a week?
Who knows?
It's as much as doctors know, Ifeel like they know very little.
Yes.
So then again, like my My sonwas about 16 or 17 months old,
and I thought, you know what,I'd really love to have another,
(03:24):
my husband was on board, and ittook me, again, about six months
to get pregnant, and the thirdtime around, same thing,
everything was completelynormal, no preeclampsia, no
swelling, no morning sickness,nothing of the sort, and He was
actually a week early and Iremember saying to my husband
while I was a labor, I was like,I feel cheated out of a week of
pregnancy.
(03:46):
My husband was like, you'recrazy.
And he was, he was my hardestlabor and delivery.
I was in labor with him for justover 19 hours.
And it took me, I went intolabor about 5 o'clock in the
morning and it took me untillike 6.
30 that night to finally say,okay, I've had enough, I need an
epidural.
And with my daughter, when Igave birth to her, I also, I
(04:08):
went about 13 hours without anepidural.
And at that point, once I gotthe epidural, my body just
relaxed and I gave birth to herabout an hour and a half later.
With my third, he was like, no,no, I I'm, I'm good.
And he stayed in, I got itaround six 30 and he wasn't born
until just after midnight.
So even with the epidural, itwas still a little bit longer.
(04:28):
But again, totally easy, totallyfine.
I felt like it was my superpowerand I was like, I can grow
humans like that.
So at the time, my husband and Ilived in Los Angeles, and it was
obviously very expensive interms of, of quality of life,
and I really wanted to bepregnant again, but I wasn't
really ready to say that Iwanted to have another child,
(04:50):
and so we started looking intosurrogacy.
Because I thought that if, if Ihad such an easy time being
pregnant, then how could I notlook into being able to do that
for someone else?
And my husband and I are bothreligious, we're, we're Orthodox
Jewish.
And it was something that we hadto discuss with the rabbis to
find out what it then meant formy children.
(05:12):
How were they related, if atall?
Was it genetically related orwas it I don't know.
religiously related?
Did the laws of the Torah applyto surrogacy?
How did that affect this?
And it's so crazy to think that,you know, the Torah was written,
whether you think it's writtenby man or by God, it was written
over 2000 years ago.
And it still applies to today,like the rabbis can still garner
(05:33):
information and say, Oh, look,we have IVF, and we have
surrogacy, and we have adoption,and we can still figure out what
those laws mean for 2023, or atthe time, you know, 2018.
So we got all the informationand it turned out that we could
in fact be surrogate parents.
It had to be for a Jewish familybecause any baby that I then
(05:54):
birth becomes a Jewish baby.
And so I would give it to aJewish family or give it, I
guess, back to a Jewish family.
And I ended up finding through avast series of, of what I felt
like.
really God talking directly tome, the right couple.
(06:14):
And we connected over Zoomthrough the fertility agency
that they had gone through, or Iguess the surrogacy agency they
had gone through.
And instantaneously we werelike, that's the right couple.
And they wanted to meet us inperson.
So they came out to LA and wejust hit it off.
We just felt like we had knowneach other forever.
And I ended up getting pregnantin the end of February of 20.
(06:36):
19 and then gave birth inDecember of 2019.
It was, it was an incredibleexperience.
It was one of those where thefirst question people ask me is
always, what was it like givingup a baby?
And I, in my head, Iautomatically think I didn't
give up a baby.
It wasn't anything right.
Because first of all, evengetting pregnant, you have to go
(06:57):
through the whole IVF process,which is not something I had
ever experienced with my ownpregnancy.
So even from the start, I feltlike I knew this wasn't mine.
I knew that it was their embryo.
It was something that I wascomfortable with.
I had discussed it with mytherapist.
I discussed it with my husband.
So it wasn't like I was giving ababy up.
I was really giving it back,which felt incredible.
(07:20):
So even while I was in laborwith that baby the parents and I
both are all agreed that wewanted to try again.
And again, my husband wasn'tlike, you're a nut.
And he's like, I think theparents at one point said to me
while I was trying, pushing thebaby out.
Like, are you sure you'repushing our child out and you
still want to do this again?
And I was like, yes, I love it.
(07:41):
So with, with COVID, it was alittle bit of like a mixed
blessing where we couldn'treally do anything because I had
to let my body rest and heal andrecover from carrying a baby and
giving birth to then saying,okay, well, we need to figure
out the unknowns.
The doctors have a lot to figureout with how COVID affects the
mom, how COVID affects the baby,all that kind of stuff.
Kind of stuff.
So in January of 2022, I wasgiven the green light to be able
(08:06):
to go ahead and do IVF one moretime.
And I went in in May for thetransfer and everything was
going great.
When you're pregnant with asurrogate baby, they treat it
like a high risk pregnancy.
So you have to go in every weekfor the first trimester to make
sure.
Yeah, that the baby implantedproperly and that the heartbeat
is strong and that it's growingnormally and all that kind of
(08:27):
stuff.
And everything indicated thatthe baby was doing great.
And I graduated from the highrisk doctor and got moved to my
doctor at, I think theyconsidered it full first
trimester at 10 weeks.
And I'd moved over and I wentfor a 10 week checkup and then I
went for a 12 week checkup.
And then they said, okay, comeback at 16 weeks.
That's when we would normallysee you anyway.
So we scheduled that.
(08:47):
And at 16 weeks and five days, Iwent in.
I thought I was going in for anormal checkup.
I even had all three of my kidswith me thinking we were going
to get to see the baby'sheartbeat and get to be able to
see on the ultrasound.
And we get into the appointmentroom and thank God for
technology because my kids wereon their iPad and we're not
paying attention at all.
And the nurse I was getting thislook on her face like I can't
(09:10):
find the heartbeat with Doppler.
And at first I, because this wasmy fifth pregnancy, it was one
of those where I sort of, yousort of know, right?
You get to that point where, youknow, the normal things, you
know, okay, sometimes I knowit's difficult to find the
heartbeat and I wasn't panickingyet, but when I looked at her
face after a few minutes and shesaid, I think I'm going to go
get the doctor.
(09:30):
That's when my heart startedracing.
And the doctor came in.
And said, I want you to go rightto the next examination room
where the ultrasound machine is.
And at that moment, I, I just, Isort of had that instinct of
knowing, but I was really tryingto deny it.
And I said to my kids, okay,we're just moving to the next
room.
And my daughter, who at the timewas 11, perked up and was like,
(09:52):
why?
I said, they're just going tocheck everything with the
ultrasound.
So my boys happily went to thenext room.
They didn't care.
And I laid down on the table andthey put the ultrasound machine
on.
wand on my belly and in secondsthe nurse like looked at me and
shook her head and I was likeWhat?
What?
I need words.
(10:13):
And she said, I can't find aheartbeat.
And I, I, I don't know.
I think I, I was just in shock.
I didn't really process what wasgoing on.
I couldn't quite comprehend whatshe was saying, but I sort of
knew what she was saying all atthe same time.
And, and I kept thinking in myhead, what do you mean there's
no heartbeat?
Of course there's a heartbeat.
Like I, I was having pregnancysymptoms yesterday and today and
(10:36):
my belly is still growing andhow could there not be a
heartbeat?
And she said The baby ismeasuring smaller than 16 weeks,
which is where you should benow.
And there's no heartbeat.
I, you either, I need to callthe doctor or you need to go to
the hospital.
And the doctor came in andstarted going over everything
and he started checking and heconfirmed that there was no
heartbeat.
And I said, so what, what do Ido?
(10:59):
I like, I needed everything laidout step by step.
My daughter at that point hadcome over and Realize something
was up and she put her hand onmy shoulder and she said, is
everything okay?
And I just started shaking myhead and and sobbing.
And the doctor said, do you needto call your husband to come
pick you up?
Do you need, you need to go tothe hospital, but you also need
to get a bag because we don'tknow how long you're going to be
(11:21):
in the hospital for.
So I remember calling my husbandand, and just not even being
able to get the words out.
He asked me if he needed to comepick me up and I said, no, I, I
think I can make it home.
I don't know how I made it home,but I know I did.
I got my kids in the car.
I remember talking to my mom, Italked to my husband and the
(11:41):
parents were in a meeting.
So I had left them a textmessage saying, call me or
something along those lines.
And as I put my hand on mydoorknob to my front door, the
mom's name popped up on myphone.
And and I.
Picked it up and just startedsobbing and and I don't I'm not
(12:01):
even sure if I open the door Ithink I sort of collapsed in
front of the door and my husbandcame out and saw me and Guided
me inside and I just remembersitting at the foot of my bed.
Like I don't know what to say Idon't know what to do.
I know I'm I need to be therefor her But she also I want her
to be there for me and this isher baby, but I'm the one
growing it There were so manythings that were swirling in my
(12:22):
head So I don't remember howlong I was on the phone with her
for, but I know that I ended upgoing to the hospital.
My husband asked me if I wantedto have my kids go to someone's
house, or if he wanted me, or ifhe wanted him to stay with the
kids.
And I said, honestly, I thinkit's better if you stay with the
kids because I know that I cantake care of me.
(12:45):
The doctors and the nurses aretaking care of me.
And I don't know what to do withmy kids if they're now dropped
off at a house and they're like,what's going on?
But now we don't have eitherparent with us.
So he went home with them.
I got checked in and they gaveme mesopropanol to start labor.
And It took about 24 hours forit to actually kick in and start
(13:08):
working.
And I had the baby the next day,but then I was
Mandy (13:13):
alone without your husband.
Kelila (13:15):
Yeah.
Mandy (13:16):
Oh,
Kelila (13:17):
but, but I had the most incredible team of nurses where
I knew, I knew I needed myhusband home with the kids.
Like to me, that was morecomforting than having him
there.
But the, the nurse that was withme, I had two, incredible
nurses.
One's name was Angela, and Iremember her name because I kept
thinking she's such an angel.
And the other one, I think hername was Sharon.
(13:38):
And the only reason I rememberthat one is because that's my
best friend's sister's name.
And she was so similar to mybest friend that every time she
squeezed my hand, I keptthinking my best friend is here
in the room with me, even thoughshe lives across the country
from me.
So thank God for them, becauseif I didn't have those two
nurses, I would not have made itthrough in one piece, I think.
Mandy (13:59):
So, the parents who you were being a surrogate for, this
is the same couple that you werea surrogate for for the previous
pregnancy?
Kelila (14:07):
Yeah.
Mandy (14:08):
So you had like a long term relationship with them?
Kelila (14:11):
Yeah.
Mandy (14:11):
And were they present for the first birth?
Kelila (14:14):
They were.
They flew out to LA.
We don't live in the same state.
And so they came to LA where Ihad the first baby about two
weeks before my due date.
So they were both in the roomfor most of the labor.
The husband stepped out while Iactually pushed.
But then he came in, the doctorcovered me up and he came in to
cut the cord.
(14:34):
And then once I had done that, Ithink once I had delivered the
placenta, he then was allowedinto the room in general, but
they were not there when I wentto the hospital this time.
Mandy (14:45):
Oh, that's so hard because you're so far away.
They don't, I'm sure they almostdidn't even have an option to
get there.
Kelila (14:52):
No.
And, and it was so quick that itwasn't like there was time for
them to get there anyway.
And it, and I think like peopleoften say when I tell them my
husband wasn't in the room forthe first.
Surrogate birth either.
I'm like, he's, he's useless inthe delivery room.
We had such a strong team ofpeople for the first birth.
I had my doula.
I had my best friend.
I had the mom.
I had my doctor and the nurseslike he would have been totally
(15:14):
useless.
So that's sort of where my brainwent.
Also, when I had to be rushed inbecause he likes to look at the
machines and he likes to askquestions where I'm just like,
just let me do what I need todo.
I just need to, you know, Getthe baby out and and that's it.
Like, I don't need all the extrastuff.
Mandy (15:33):
Do you think that if the pregnancy had been yours and
your husband's pregnancy that hewould have, that you would have
wanted him there?
Kelila (15:40):
Probably.
For the
Mandy (15:41):
experience.
Kelila (15:42):
Probably.
Because he was there for everyone of our own children's birth.
And I think that if it was, Ourown that I was that I had lost.
I think he would have feltdifferently about being in the
room.
Also, whereas he knew it wasmore important for him to be
home with our kids and not with.
Trying to figure out whatbecause again, like we didn't
(16:04):
have to figure out any of theafter care for the baby We
didn't have to figure outautopsy or or Burial or or
anything like that?
That was all up to the parentsSo the only thing that I really
had to do is make sure that theywere Up to date and understood
what was going on so that wecould they could then
communicate what their wisheswere.
Mandy (16:26):
Okay.
So the parents were able tochoose to get memorial.
Kelila (16:30):
Yeah,
Mandy (16:31):
after the birth and everything.
Kelila (16:32):
Yeah.
And so I was in the hospital for2 full days.
I ended up having to go in for aDNC also because.
My placenta wasn't detachingfrom the wall of my uterus, so I
was losing too much blood andthey said we have to put you
under and I just rememberthinking as I was getting put
under, a long time ago, I had mytonsils taken out, but I had, I
(16:53):
was, I was in my early 20s andit was one of those where the
nurse, as I was getting putunder said to me, if you think
about happy things, then you'lldream about happy things and
you'll wake up Feeling happier.
So I remember at the time I wasdating my husband and I kept
just saying his name in my headand I remember waking up being
like, I had such a good dream.
(17:14):
So this time I was like, okay,I, I just need to keep repeating
my kid's names and my husband'sname.
And even though I was in such adark place, I knew that if I
kept saying their names, itwould stay there.
still give me a little bit of anedge to feel better.
And when I woke up again, thisis where my nurses were
absolutely incredible becausethe nurse let me keep my phone
up until the last second of megoing under.
(17:36):
So I was able to talk to myhusband almost as I was going to
sleep.
And then she was there with myphone, right?
When I woke up and said, do youwant to call your husband?
And, and that to me just meantthe world because I was like,
even though he's not here, Istill feel like we're connected
in that way.
Which I don't know that sheshould have done or shouldn't
have done, but whatever it was,I was grateful for that moment.
Mandy (17:57):
Yeah.
Wow.
So after this all happened andyou were able to leave the
hospital and go home and startrecovering your body physically,
what was the experience for youemotionally knowing that you
were.
Pregnant as a surrogate and howdo you think that was different
or how does it I know youhaven't had a pregnancy loss of
(18:21):
your and your husband's.
So I guess you can onlyspeculate but I'm curious as to
how that might impact the kindof grief that you're feeling did
you feel like you failed theparents and feel any kind of
guilt in that way.
Kelila (18:36):
100%.
I.
I asked every what if.
I felt like it was completely myfault.
I went through every singlething I ate.
I went through every singlething I did.
I went through every, every,even person I talked to, or, or
trail I walked, or car ride Ihad, or whatever, to be like,
was that too bumpy?
Did I do this wrong?
(18:57):
Did I eat this?
Did I not do that?
Did I forget my prenatal vitaminon that day?
Or, or whatever it was.
Every little thing I felt like,I had to find a reason, because
there was no reason.
It's not even like the doctorsfound a reason in the end
anyway.
And so I 100 percent felt likemy body had failed me.
And it's weird to think now,because this, the statistic is
(19:18):
that one in four pregnancieswill end in a loss.
And so that was my fifthpregnancy.
So I felt like I was alreadysort of going against the
statistic.
And then now that I'm, I'm partof it, I was like, Oh, I'm
really not immune to it.
It's not like you can just floatby and say, no, there's a reason
(19:38):
those statistics exist and, and,and you can't ignore them.
So it, it was, it was rough.
The first few weeks, I wasdefinitely a mess.
I deep.
Dived into the internet,Pinterest, every sort of form of
article I could read aboutmiscarriage and loss and what to
do afterwards and who to talk toand who to find.
(20:00):
And there just wasn't a lot ofinformation.
There was one resource that I amso grateful for that my hospital
gave me and it was sort ofalmost an off handed resource.
packet that they gave me andsaid, you can go through this
when you're ready.
And one of the numbers that wasin there was a therapist who had
also experienced a stillbirth.
His wife had given birth at 32weeks, and so he had started a
(20:25):
group called Heal, and he gets,I think it's two or three times
a year, and so he's able to gettogether a group, almost like,
like a pregnancy loss supportgroup, but it's seven weeks, and
you have to commit to everysingle week, and it's a two hour
long class.
Where we did it all on zoom,fortunately, it was people that
are all in the area.
(20:46):
So I've met some of them since,but we were able to really
understand each other in a waythat you just don't feel like
the rest of the world can.
And he said, one of the thingsthat he experienced when he was
driving home from the hospitalafter his wife gave birth, which
I think each of us related towas.
He had lost his child and theworld just kept going.
(21:08):
And he was like, I don'tunderstand how nobody else is
angry, how nobody elseunderstands the pain I'm going
through.
And, and I am so alone in thismoment.
And I think that was where eachof us said, Oh, my gosh, that is
exactly how I felt.
But if you felt that, thenobviously we're not alone in
that moment.
And it, this group was one thatwe still, we have a text chain
(21:31):
that we're all still close witheach other.
There has been subsequent birthsin that text.
And that group since and it's sowonderful to see life
continuing, but to still be ableto honor the babies that we know
aren't here that you don'tnormally get to do with just
your regular group of friends.
So that resource in and ofitself was a godsend.
(21:51):
I don't know that if, you know,with all of my other research
and the things even that I'vecreated, if I didn't have that,
I don't know that I would bewhere I am now because of the
growth that I was able toaccomplish through that.
Mandy (22:03):
Yeah, I think the The support that you can get from
other people who've had similarlosses is You can't compare it
to anything else because there'ssomething so profound in just
talking to someone who canhonestly say, I get it.
And they really do, because eventhough everyone's experience is
a little bit different, thereare some real commonalities when
(22:26):
you have a certain type of loss.
And I do think there's a bigstigma about joining groups
specifically support groups,people feel weird about it, but.
I've talked to so many people onthis podcast and a lot of people
bring up support groups and thenthey have the most incredible
experience and meet people thatbecome friends and become a part
(22:47):
of their life from, from thatpoint on.
And so I always want to try andemphasize that it's okay to join
a support group.
And it doesn't mean there'sanything wrong with you and it
doesn't mean you're not grievingcorrectly or that you're stuck.
And you know, it, it, It mightnot be for you, but give it a
try because it might be, and itmight be something that, you
(23:07):
know, really helps you like yousaid, you don't think you would
be where you are today and yourentire process if it weren't for
that group.
So,
Kelila (23:14):
exactly.
And I think that it's somethingwhere even because I started my
own podcast since and the firstinterview I had was actually
somebody from the group, andthere were things that she.
told me in the podcast interviewthat she didn't even share with
the group at the time.
And I thought, Oh my gosh, ifyou had shared this with
everybody, it's, it's also oneof those where you don't feel so
(23:35):
crazy because you don't feellike.
my grief is any worse or betteror that you're doing things that
are weird or if you had this onethought that nobody else had
that thought or if you did thisone thing that made you feel
better that nobody else ever didthat and you're like, no,
everybody else is going throughthe same thing.
So when she shared those bits ofinformation, I was like, Oh my
(23:56):
gosh, this is priceless.
Mandy (23:57):
Yeah, I love that.
So Yeah, what have you donesince all of this happened, and
how does your life lookdifferent?
You mentioned that you have apodcast now,
Kelila (24:07):
I do.
So it's been a year and a half,and I, I'm a DIYer, so anything
that I can Get my hands on.
I realized I was reorganizing mydesk a few months ago, and I was
looking over all of my projects.
And I was like, Oh, each of mystress points.
I can point to exactly whichthing I picked up to be like, I
(24:27):
can learn to knit.
I can learn to crochet.
I can learn to do whatever itwas that I was like, I'm
stressed out.
I need to DIY.
So that is what I dove into.
And I figured I found all theseamazing resources.
through this heel group, throughmy deep dive in the internet,
through other therapists thatI'm friendly with, through
(24:48):
friends that I know who havegone through therapy.
And even one of the thingsthat's one of my absolute
favorite activities is somethingthat my best friend's daughter
taught me a long time ago thatI've implemented with my own
kids.
And it's something that's noteven necessarily a healing tool,
but it's just a great resourceto have.
So with all of that, I created apregnancy loss toolkit.
(25:08):
And the resource that I alwaystalk about the most, which is
that one that my best friend'sdaughter taught me was she
creates a grid for the year.
It doesn't matter where youstart in the year.
You could start on January 1stor wherever, but you create a
box for all 365 days and youlabel each emotion that you
could feel with a differentcolor.
(25:29):
So, I always like to do anger isred, blue is happy, purple is
calm, things like that.
And every day, the end of theday, you color in that square
that corresponds to the day withthe color of the emotion that
you felt.
as an overwhelming feeling.
And sometimes it could be, okay,you split the box in half and
(25:49):
you say, well, in the morning, Iwas feeling this emotion, but
towards the end of the day, Ireally had switched.
And sometimes it is one emotion,but you can look back on it and
you can see each individual day.
And in the process of grief, itreally helped me understand that
every day was separate from thenext, because as you know, when
When you're going throughsomething like that, everything
(26:10):
sort of melts together and weeksturn into months that could turn
into years.
And the next thing you know, youturn around, you're like, what
just happened to the last fewyears of my life?
So this was a great resourcethat I really felt like
separated each day.
And I could look back and say,Literally a tapestry of the last
few weeks.
What overwhelming emotion was Ifeeling?
(26:31):
Was I feeling like more dayswere better?
Was I feeling like more dayswere bad or whatever it was?
And I could reach out and gethelp if I felt like there was
more bad days as opposed to gooddays.
Mandy (26:42):
Yeah.
And I love that it can give youa bird's eye view because
progress can be so slow andhealing can take so long that
sometimes you feel like I'mnever going to be happy again
and I'm never going to have gooddays, but as you see more and
more show up in your grid andthe colors start to change a
little, that I think can givepeople hope like, Oh, you know,
maybe I am working my waythrough it.
Kelila (27:04):
Right, right.
And some days you'll say, Oh,yesterday was a really awful
day.
But you know what?
Today, I actually had somereally great moments.
So maybe I can put that I wasfeeling more happy today.
So it is, it is a total bird'seye view.
And it's like I said, it's notan exercise that I ever got.
originally from going throughany sort of traumatic
experience.
It was something that my bestfriend's daughter had found and
(27:25):
I was like, I love that.
I need to include that.
So in the toolkit, there's awhole workbook with various
different activities like thatone.
There's some journalingexercises and some coloring in
general.
And just some affirmations in aspace to write your own
affirmations in your own words.
And there's also just some itemsin the toolkit itself to make
you feel like you're getting ahug from somebody who cares with
(27:47):
some chocolate and a mug and Aneye mask and things like that.
And then I, I became a speakerbecause I want to be able to
help other people.
I think that the whole point ofme going through this was that I
realized everybody goes throughlife and and sort of accumulates
their own traumas andaccumulates their own baggage.
And my feeling is, is that it'sall about how you learn to carry
(28:09):
it.
That makes you who you are.
It shouldn't define you, but itcan be a part of you.
And if you can get to thatunderstanding, There's so much
healing on the other sidebecause you do have to continue
living just because the baby'snot here doesn't mean that my
life ends, and I can't live inthat wallow and that grief and
that sorrow constantly, ofcourse, I still hurt and of
(28:31):
course I still feel like, oh mygosh, what if I did this and
what if I did that, but I'mnever going to.
Live if I continue to live inthe what ifs.
Mandy (28:40):
Right.
Kelila (28:41):
And so I sort of switched it and I say, I have to
look at the what nows becauseotherwise I will go into a hole
that will, I will never get outof.
And so that's where I, I movedinto that speaking role.
And then I thought, well, if I'mgoing to do keynote speaking, I
really want to be able to justtalk to other people who've had
(29:01):
a similar experience.
learn from them also.
So I started my podcast.
And It goes into my story firstas to the basics of what
happened in my loss, but moreimportantly, I want to talk to
other people to give them aspace to talk about their own
pregnancy loss and to understandalso like what you're doing, how
they learn to live and how theylearn to thrive afterwards.
Mandy (29:23):
Wow.
I think that's incredible.
And, you know, one part of that,something that's definitely
helped me in my process, and Ican see it seems to be similar
for you, but once you get to apoint where you're feeling okay,
and you are living your life, Ithink that process of giving
back to the community that isbehind you, so they are in new
(29:47):
loss and, and in deep grief andreally, you know, In that
struggling phase that we havebeen through, I think there's an
incredible power in giving backto that and finding ways to
support people who are therebecause we know how hard it is.
And so everything that you'redoing, things that I'm doing,
that is my way of saying, like,you can make it through this.
(30:10):
I've made it through this andI'm going to try to reach a
handout to those people who arethere and help guide them
forward.
And I've seen a lot of people onthis podcast who do similar
things where you find purposein, in helping others.
And I think it's a, it's animportant part of healing that
we always see.
Kelila (30:30):
And it's interesting, because I always say, like, to
my kids, it's sort of a, I sayit on a lesser degree, because
thank God they have pretty goodlives, but whenever they tell me
that they can't fall asleep atnight, I say to them, has there
ever been a night that you'veever stayed up all night?
And it's sort of the same thingthrough survival.
Has there ever been anything youhaven't survived?
Because otherwise you wouldn'tbe here.
(30:52):
It's one of those where goingthrough it is awful.
And it's something where I'velearned, you really have to feel
the emotions.
You can't just keep pushing themdown because it's just going to
make you feel worse.
Not just emotionally, butphysically I've seen it so many
times where it's affected peoplein a physical way.
And if you can really understandwhere your emotions are coming
(31:14):
from and let them.
Be what they will be.
It will hurt in the moment, butit will feel so much better on
the other side.
Mandy (31:24):
I love that.
And I just have one morequestion for you.
I'm thinking about the fact thatyou've been a surrogate twice
and once was a successfulpregnancy.
And once you had this loss andit impacted both you and the
birth parents.
And so to anyone out there who'sconsidering surrogacy, do you
think your experience will scarepeople away from that
(31:46):
experience?
And what would you tell peoplewho are considering surrogacy,
knowing that any pregnancy hasthe possibility of ending in a
pregnancy loss?
And, and with your firstexperience, did it, do you still
feel like it was worth what youhad to put your body through and
the emotional work that you hadto do after your loss?
What can you say to people whomight consider being a
(32:08):
surrogate?
Kelila (32:10):
I think that if, if you Do you love being pregnant?
Then being a surrogate is one ofthe best things you could
possibly do it.
I don't look at it in any way,shape or form as something that
I regret doing.
I look at it as I brought a lifeinto this world that has an
amazing family that has anamazing loving home.
(32:32):
I felt like I gave birth to mynephew and not my child.
So it's a differentrelationship.
And even after I had had theloss.
I was still working through itwith my husband and saying, you
know, should we do surrogacyagain?
If they want me to be asurrogate and try one more time,
is that possible?
Emotionally, I think I'm okaywith it, but I don't know if I'm
(32:52):
ready for it.
And like I said before, at thebeginning, this journey was such
a thing that I felt like wasguided by the hand of God.
But even as the last thing thatthe doctor said when they told
me I actually wasn't allowed tobe a surrogate anymore, I was
like, you know what?
That's a decision that I, that Ifeel like God is making the
decision for me and saying thateven if you know, you would want
(33:16):
to, I think that it's, it's timeto be okay with the fact that
you're done.
And so if anybody else ever hasquestions, I'm always here to
answer questions aboutsurrogacy.
I think it's a beautiful gift.
You can give to someone.
I think that there's so manythings, like I said before, that
doctors understand aboutscience.
And yet there's so It's a vast,vast amount of knowledge that
(33:37):
they have no clue on.
And so if you're diagnosed withunknown infertility, you, you
have no answers and you havenowhere to turn.
And surrogacy is one of thosethat can give you something that
you can't give yourself.
Mandy (33:48):
That's great.
And actually that's the perfectsegue to ask, how can people
reach out to you?
I know you said you don't mindpeople reaching out.
So how can people reach out toyou and what is the name of your
podcast again, and any otherinformation that you want to
give listeners?
Kelila (34:03):
I am on all the socials and Instagram, it's actually my
company name, so it's Ours andYours.
Ours is spelled normally O U R SA N D, but Yours is actually my
daughter's initial, so it's Y RS.
Mandy (34:16):
Oh, cool.
Kelila (34:17):
Yeah, and then my my Facebook name is Kalila Beth
Green, which is my name.
My website isKalilaGreenspeaker.
com.
And the podcast is calledPushing Through Loss, and it's
on all of the various differentpodcast forums, Spotify, Apple,
all those good things.
I hope you felt inspired byKalila's story and feel
(34:39):
empowered to reach out to herdirectly for support.
You may notice in your podcastapp that we have a new feature
called Fan Mail, where you cantext the show with your
questions, comments, orreactions.
We'd love to hear from you, andwe will reply in our next
episode if you do.
As always, thank you so much forlistening.
Please make sure you subscribe,share this episode with anyone
(34:59):
who could benefit from it.
And as always, visitRememberGrams anytime you need
to send a little love to someonewho is grieving.
Thank you, and have a wonderfulday.
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