Dirty Work - Eyal Press

Welcome to Grit Nation. 

In this episode I have the pleasure of speaking with journalist, professor of sociology and author Eyal Press.

Eyal’s latest book titled Dirty Work – Essential Jobs and the Hidden Toll of Inequality in America, addresses the morally troubling work that society silently condones and the hidden class of workers who do it. 

 Eyal and I begin our conversation by discussing the origins of the term Dirty Work and how the unconscious mandate it reveals is as prevalent today in contemporary American life as it was in Nazi occupied World War 2 Germany. 

 Eyal will then explain the physical and mental toll dirty work jobs take on the people who perform them as he shares the many personal stories he encountered while doing research for his book. 

From mental health care professionals working in state and federal penal systems, to aerial drone pilots conducting remote air strikes and workers on the kill floors of industrial slaughterhouses, Eyal unfolds a tale that is simultaneously gut-wrenching, powerful, and provocative. 

Later we’ll discuss the roll organized labor unions can play in de-stigmatizing dirty work, by challenging the systemic socio-economic and moral inequality structure that so strongly divides our nation. 

And we’ll end our conversation by exploring the nature of the implicit social contract around dirty work; so we can better understand who does the work, why it is done how we can re-shape the story it tells about us as a society.

The Show Notes

Eyal Press
https://www.eyalpress.com/

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Episode Transcript

Joe Cadwell (00:09):
Welcome to Grit Nation. I'm Joe Cadwell, the
writer, producer and host of theshow. And on this episode I have
the pleasure of speaking withjournalists Professor of
Sociology and author Eyal Press.
His latest book titled DirtyWork, Essential Jobs and the
Hidden Toll of Inequality inAmerica addresses the morally
troubling work that societysilently condones, and the
hidden class workers who do itAl and I begin our conversation

(00:31):
by discussing the origins of theterm dirty work, and how the
unconscious mandate it revealsis as prevalent today in
contemporary American life, asit was in Nazi occupied World
War Two German ale will thenexplain the physical and mental
toll dirty work jobs take on thepeople perform them, as he
shares the many personal storieshe encountered while doing
research for his book. Formental healthcare professionals

(00:54):
working in state and federalpenal systems to aerial drone
pilots conducting remoteairstrikes, and workers on the
kill floors of industrialslaughterhouses. Aon folds a
tale that is simultaneously gutwrenching, powerful and
provocative. Later, we'lldiscuss the role organized labor
unions can play in destigmatizing dirty work. by
challenging the systemic socioeconomic and moral inequality

(01:17):
structure that is so stronglydivides our nation and want our
conversation by exploring thenature of the implicit social
contract around dirty work. Sowe can better understand who
does the work, why it is done,and how we can reshape the story
it tells about us as a society.

(01:38):
After this show, be sure tocheck out the Episode notes to
help you dive deeper into thesubject.
And now on to the show. EyalPress Welcome to Grit Nation.

Eyal Press (01:56):
Thank you so much.

Joe Cadwell (01:57):
Eyal, thank you so much for taking your time to be
on the show today, I'm reallyexcited to talk to you about
your your recent book, DirtyWork, Essential Jobs and the
Hidden Toll of Inequality inAmerica. But before we do that,
Al I was hoping you could tellus a little bit about you. And I
understand your your folks, yourmom and dad both have
interesting stories as well.

Eyal Press (02:19):
Absolutely. Thank you again, for having me on the
program. And I want to just saythat it's it's a special
privilege to talk to an audienceof union members and blue collar
workers. Because you mentioned alittle personal history. So my
paternal grandfather wasoriginally from the Russian pale

(02:42):
of settlement, as a lot of Jewswere and he became sort of, he
joined the Zionist movement whenhe after there were some attacks
on Jews and ended up going toPalestine. And he worked in a
bakery, there was a mixedworkforce, both Jews and Arabs.
And he told me, I recorded thisconversation with him. He told

(03:06):
me that they used to work 80hour weeks, some of the guys
would actually sleep there onthese little carpets, they
brought and go right back towork after you know, three to
four hours of sleep. And theconditions were really tough.
And eventually they wanted toorganize. And so they came
together to the workers. Andthey chose someone to represent

(03:29):
them in the negotiations withmanagement. And that turned out
to be my my grandfather.
Benjamin was his name, Benjaminpress. And he became one of the
leaders of the what became thehistory group in Israel, which
is really the sort of analogousorgan of the institution to the
AFL CIO here as the kind oflargest organized labor union in

(03:49):
Israel. And throughout his life,he was negotiating on behalf of
workers to improve conditions invarious workplaces into his 80s.
I remember him getting on busesand going to to mediate these
disputes. So that's part ofwhere my interest in labor comes

(04:11):
from. And I should also saythat, you know, was also the
backdrop to my upbringing in theUnited States. So I was born in
Israel, but my family moved toBuffalo, New York when I was
three years old in the 1970s.
And buffalo, as many peopleknow, is a blue collar town that

(04:33):
in the 70s experienced reallyharsh deindustrialization, steep
steel plants closing down andhaving ripple effects. There was
a lot of unemployment. So thatwas kind of always there in my
consciousness as something thatwas interesting to me. On a
whole different side of things,you mentioned my, my, my

(04:56):
mother's side of the family, soyou know connects also to issues
of labor. But my mother was bornin a German camp during World
War Two. My paternalgrandparents were Holocaust
survivors. They were RomanianJews and survived a couple of
years at this camp, which reallywas a kind of simply a labor

(05:20):
camp, but as opposed toconstantly an extermination
camp, but people were working1416 hour days on a piece of
bread, you know, really justhorrible, horrible, horribly
difficult conditions. And afterWorld War Two, my grandparents
returned to Romania, and mygrandfather couldn't find work

(05:42):
he had been he had run a smallshop, he was a milliner. That
was over. And he ended upworking in a gas station. That
was all he could do pumping gas.
And, you know, the title of mynew book is dirty work. And, you
know, one of my extended membersof the family said, you know,
this is this is a book that theboth of your grandparents your

(06:04):
grandfather's would have, wouldhave understood the one who was
involved in unions, and the onewho ended up doing an in effect,
kind of dirty work of working ina gas station. So I didn't talk
about my parents, do you want meto say more? Do you want to dip
into the substance of the book,

Joe Cadwell (06:22):
we'll start getting into the book for sure. But
that's a very interesting familyhistory. And I think a lot of my
listeners right now, or areprobably scratching their head
because they probably saw dirtywork and assumed it was going to
be along the lines of Mike RoseDirty Jobs, you know, and the
physically getting dirty fromfrom the work that you do. But

(06:42):
in your book, after reading it,I realized that that it's not so
much a physical manifestation ofdirt on the outside of your
clothing, but a lot of the moralquandaries and compromised
positions that people who areengaged in dirty work find
themselves in and I think it allstarted with you referencing a
sociologist, Everett Hughes, anda good people dirty work. I was

(07:05):
hoping you could tell us alittle bit more about that.

Eyal Press (07:07):
Yeah, so So you're absolutely right. I apologize to
listeners who did expect that itwas a book about physically
dirty jobs, because my booktakes that expression, dirty
work from this essay by EverettHughes. And that essay ever use
was pretty renowned sociologistback in his days kind of been

(07:29):
forgotten. But he wrote oneclassic essay, and that essays
titled good people, and dirtywork. And it was written after
Hughes spent a semester teachingabroad in postwar Germany. This
was right after World War Two.
And he goes there. And Hugheshas an interest in finding out
how ordinary Germans how theywould react when he brought up

(07:55):
the Nazi era, which of course,had just past just happened. And
mostly, what he found is thatpeople wouldn't bring it up. So
he started bringing it up inconversation and the folks he
knew, and got to know, we're notcommitted members of the Nazi
party, they were what he called,good people, you know, they were

(08:16):
tolerant minded. They, theywould react at first, as one
architect he visited one nightsaid, you know, when, when asked
about the Nazis? Well, I'mashamed for my people, when
whenever I hear that, you know,whenever it's brought up, which
is exactly what you'd expect,you know, a good person

Joe Cadwell (08:36):
to say, 948, Germany, I mean, this is right
after that, the end of World WarTwo.

Eyal Press (08:42):
Exactly. It's right after the war. But so so the guy
says, you know, I'm ashamed formy people whenever I think of
it. But then he goes on to say,but you know, the Jews, they
really were a problem. You know,they were taking all the good
jobs and law and medicine, theywere gathering in these ghettos.
He kind of goes on to describeJews as you know, a nuisance to

(09:10):
society. At the same time, thathe says he's ashamed that the
Nazis committed this horrible,you know, genocide. And Hughes
keeps hearing this kind of onthe one hand, on the other hand,
from the folks he talks to whilehe's there, and he comes back to
the United States, he teaches atthe University of Chicago, and

(09:31):
he eventually publishes thisessay called good people and
dirty work. And what he says inthat essay, is that the dirty
work that was orchestrated bythe Nazis was not entirely
separate from the good people.
He talked to that that there isa relationship between these
things. And what he meant wasthat it's not the good people

(09:54):
like that architect approved ofwhat the Nazis did. that they
didn't really want to hear toomuch about it. Because at some
level, they saw the Jews as aproblem, right as their fellow
citizens, people who had rightsand needed to be protected. But
rather, as you know, let'squietly get rid of this and

(10:15):
don't don't ask me too muchabout it. And so Hughes says
there is, you know, he posits inthis essay that there's a kind
of tacit mandate, andunconscious mandate, he says,
for, for people to, you know,kind of tune out and have the
dirty work done by someone else.
And what's most interestingabout that essay, is what Hughes

(10:38):
says, towards the end, becausehe, he isn't writing this to
indict Germans. And he's veryexplicit about this. What he
says is, you know, this dynamicexists in every society, every
society has its share of dirtywork, not the kind that you
know, existed under the Nazis,not something so stark, and on

(11:00):
that scale of evil. Butnevertheless, you can find dirty
work, you can find, as he putit, morally troubling activities
that go on and have some kind ofunconscious mandate from the
rest of society, which doesn'twant to hear too much about it
and doesn't ask questions. Maybebecause at some level, you know,
it benefits them not to askthese questions. And, you know,

(11:24):
I found these letters he wroteafter that essay came out, and
it stirred a lot of debate. Andhe said, Look, I wasn't writing
this with the Germans in mind, Iwas writing this with my fellow
Americans in mind, you know, towarn us of the dangers in our
own mitts, you know, how muchdirty work do we tolerate as a
society because we can delegateit to others, and hide it and so

(11:48):
forth. That's the point ofdeparture for this book, I
decided to that those questionsthat he asked, were worth
exploring in contemporaryAmerica, you know, what kind of
dirty work goes on here. Andwhen I say that, I mean, the
kind of, you know, morallytroubling activity that Hughes
is talking about, who does thiswork? And what kind of mandate

(12:11):
does it have from the rest ofsociety. And that's really the
basis of this book.

Joe Cadwell (12:18):
And having read your book, I understand that you
focused on three main areas, andI think it would be best to just
name them off, and then maybe goback and revisit each one, but
mental health workers in thecriminal justice system or in
jails and prisons, you talkabout drone pilots in the in the
military, performingassassinations, if you will,

(12:42):
remotely. Yeah. And then you youtalk about the sort of the
industrial food complex andwhere a lot of our meat comes
from in the killing floors, justassembly lines of
slaughterhouses. And I think,chronologically, maybe we can
start with Harriet Chris Koski.
And the story that you broughtthe light about her time there
in Dade County, Florida.

Eyal Press (13:04):
Sure, sure. So so, you know, I started out with
Harriet, and this is a book ofstories, I should say, you know,
folks who are looking for policyanalysis, probably going to find
more of it. In other books. Ithink if you're looking for
vivid stories about people doingjobs that put them in a

(13:25):
compromised situation, wherethey have to decide, you know,
do I do this or not? And if I doit, you know, what's it going to
mean? You know, about what's itgoing to say about my values
about who I am, I'm gonna beable to sleep at night. That's,
that's what I deal with in thisbook. And Harriet is a person
who really never expected toencounter those questions. She

(13:47):
got a job. This was postrecession, Florida right after
the 2008 Great Recession. Sheand her husband husband's out of
work, they really need money.
She's looking around for a job,she can't find anything. And she
ends up getting a job at thisprison south of Florida called
the day CorrectionalInstitution. And her training to
the extent she had training, shewas still in the process of

(14:12):
getting it was as as kind ofsocial worker and mental health
aide. So she works in the mentalhealth board of this prison. And
she's a woman and it's an allmale prison. So when she goes in
there, she has a prettyconventional view of who the
good guys and the bad guys areright? The prison. The good guys
are the guards because they'regoing to protect her. And the
bad guys are, you know, theinmates, because they've

(14:34):
committed crimes. It's so she'sa little bit weary. At the same
time, she knows it's her job tohelp guys who are you know,
maybe while in prison havingmental health crises, and she
gets there and this worldview ofhers is kind of turned upside
down. Because as soon as shestarts working at Dade, she

(14:56):
starts to you know, realize thatyeah, you know, these inmates,
they made mistakes in theirlives. They're not perfect. But
neither is she. And she actuallyreally wants to help them. You
know, they're there, a lot ofthem are really in need of
mental health services. And infact, that's not unique to date,

(15:16):
because jails and prisons arethe largest mental health
institutions in the UnitedStates today. We don't fund
mental health servicesadequately. And as a result,
especially in poor communities,what ends up happening is, you
know, folks get picked up andbrought into the criminal
justice system. And who,

Joe Cadwell (15:39):
I was gonna say that a big part of that came in
the early 80s, during the Reaganadministration, when there was a
lot of defunding mentalinstitutions, and now our
prisons and jails sort of becomethe de facto mental health care
facilities.

Eyal Press (15:54):
Absolutely. And so Harriet's kind of getting clued
into this. But she's alsogetting hearing from some of the
inmates that they're beingmistreated. Some of them start
telling her, you know, they'reskipping my meals, I get empty
meal meal trace, she doesn'thear this once, she hears it
quite a lot. She hears it enoughthat she actually asked her

(16:18):
supervisory What should I doabout this, these guys are
telling me they're not gettingfed. And her supervisor says,
you know, Harriet, our job is toget along with security, you
know, basically sending hermessage, don't stir things up in
here. And as it happens, Harrietsometime later is trying to get

(16:41):
a group of guys she'ssupervising on a Sunday into the
rec yard. And the rec yard isthe area where they can be
outdoors, they get somesunlight, it's actually the only
place they can get sunlight. Andthe security officer was
working, keeps giving her anexcuse for why they can't do it.

(17:02):
You know, every week, she keepsgetting a different excuse.

Joe Cadwell (17:05):
And this is one day a week these inmates get to go
out and on a Sunday and go intothe yard, and it's being denied.
So the one rep, positive thingthey have to look forward to at
the end of every week is beingtaken away.

Eyal Press (17:17):
Exactly. And so she she eventually writes an email
to her supervisor complainingabout this. And soon after she
does that, the guards stopopening the security gates for
her, they start leaving heralone in the rec yard, they
start leaving her alone whenshe's doing these group sessions

(17:38):
with inmates, basically sendingher a message. We don't have
your back anymore, because youratted us out. You said
something, you know, you steppedout of line. And so Harriet kind
of learns, as you put it to methat you know what, what your
job is, in addition to, youknow, checking in and walking

(18:01):
around and doing your dailyresponsibilities, is to pretend
you don't see what's going on tonot be a witness. And, you know,
what she sees as prevented fromreporting is is verbal abuse is
in some cases, physical abuse.
And then she arrives at theprison one morning, and she
hears about a guy named DarrenRainey, who had been in the

(18:23):
throes of a real mental healthcrisis the day before. And she
was told as she was leaving theday before, well, they're taking
Rainey to a shower to a hotshower. Really make much of
this? Yeah,

Joe Cadwell (18:41):
if I understand correctly, it deprecated in his
cell and refused to clean it up.
And the guard said, Well, we'regoing to give him a shower,
which he thought was soundedlike a good idea. That's right.

Eyal Press (18:50):
That's right. She thought, Okay, you're giving
them a shower. Nothing too.
Probably a good thing. She comesin the next day. And she hears
that rainy, collapsed and diedin that shower. And the first
thought she has is, oh, he had aheart attack. He fell down. And
a nurse tells her no, he waslocked inside that shower on

(19:13):
purpose, and left in there andeventually couldn't take being
in there. And the reason hecouldn't take being in there is
because the flow of water andthe temperature of the water in
that shower was controlled bythe guards from a rigged up
hose. And the temperature wasthe temperature of tea water. It

(19:34):
was scalding water.

Joe Cadwell (19:39):
180 degrees. I

Eyal Press (19:40):
sense right, remember? Yes, yes. In fact,
Harriet knew this because sheused to use some of the water
for some of the faucets that theprison took to warm up her ramen
noodles. And so she knew andthis is what she instantly
thought of and she thought, waita minute. No. And then she finds
out Rainey is not The first guyto have been locked in that

(20:02):
shower that this was a form ofan effect torture, a punishment
that a group of guards at theprison were inflicting on some
of the guys in what was calledthe the Transitional Care Unit
that the mental health ward. SoHarry learns about this. And she
says to the nurse, oh, they'regoing to get in trouble for
this. And the nurse says, No,they're not going to get in

(20:24):
trouble. They're going tothey're going to brush it under
the rug, they're going to getaway with it. And, in fact, no
one on the mental health staffat the prison, reported what had
happened. Harriet, who hearsabout it, and is in shock at
first wants to report it. Butremember, she has had this
experience of trying to defy theguards on other matters, and

(20:49):
learn her lesson, which is youknow, you don't cross us. This
is our house. And the onlyreason we actually know what
happened to Derek Rainey is aanother inmate another prisoner
at Dade eventually leak thestory to Julie Brown, a reporter
at the Miami Herald and thetruth that did come out. And

(21:11):
indeed, we now have seen thepictures of what happened to
rainy he had burns 90% of hisbody when he was found. He died
a gruesome, gruesome death, westill don't know exactly how
whether he did collapse, andmaybe, you know, lost because of
the steam and the heat or justbecause of the scalding. In any

(21:33):
event. What I use Harriet'sstory, to again to go back to
the questions about dirty workin our society. This is an
extreme story on one level, andyou're thinking Wait, okay, this
happened at one prison. Butwhat's it really tell us about
broader society? Well, it turnsout, as we said that, that it's

(21:59):
not just one prison, the jailsand prisons have become de facto
mental health asylums. And thatputs not just the mental health
aides in a very difficultsituation, folks, like Harriet,
it also puts prison guards andcorrections officers in a
difficult situation, because,you know, there are those who

(22:20):
take advantage of this. And inthe ways I've just described,
also, as Harry had put it, tome, there were a lot of guards
at Dade who were trying to dothe right thing. You know, they
were trying to do their best.
But it was a it was a situationwhere you really couldn't do
much, because they haven't beentrained to care for this
population. The resources arescarce. Right now in Florida.
You know, they're having hugestaffing shortages in, in the

(22:44):
prisons. So everything I'mdescribing is very much.

Joe Cadwell (22:50):
And if I understand correctly, Florida has the third
largest prison system in the USand it funds its mental health
program second to the bottom,just after I doubt.

Eyal Press (23:00):
That's right. That's right. And so and so when we
think about those structuralconditions, and this is really
the point of the book, it's thepoint of the story I tell about
Harriet, it's very easy to pointthe finger at the guys at the
lowest rung and to say, Oh,those brutal guards, they're the
dirty workers, you know, theywere doing it, they're rogue

(23:20):
actors. But whatever Hugheswould tell us is, wait a minute,
those rogue actors, no, thoseare agents of society. Society
has some responsibility for allof this, because of the
conditions that created thismess. And, and I actually think

(23:41):
that, that that very much doesapply, because as you said, you
know, in the state of Florida,there are not adequate mental
health services to preventpeople like dark and rainy and
others from ending up at a placelike Dade and instead maybe just
getting treatment in thecommunity. And so the criminal

(24:02):
justice system absorbs thesefolks. And they enter an
overcrowded, underfunded systemthat is ill equipped to care for
them. And how is order to theextent there is order enforced
in such an environment? Well, itends up being through brutality
and force. And, you know, that'snot my opinion. That's actually

(24:24):
I'm paraphrasing. One of thecorrections officers I write
about in the book, a guy namedBill Curtis, and, you know,
Bill, worked in the system for along time. And he told me
something that has stayed withme ever since he said, he said,
You know, when a good man orwoman works in in a prison, a

(24:49):
bit of that goodness wears off.
You become jaded, you becomecallous. You know, he did. I'm
paraphrasing what he said butthe point is, even the people
with good intent Tensions, startfiguring out that, you know,
this is a system that's going towhere you're going to dirty your
hands or you're not going tosurvive. And and that's really
the point of the prison sectionof the book that we have. The

(25:11):
prison system in America isn'tjust a system of punishment. It
is also a large workforce thatis, has effectively been
subcontracted to carry outthings like providing mental
health care for this populationof folks who who cycled through

(25:34):
the prison systems. The otherthing I would would want to say,
because we haven't really talkedabout it, I said at the
beginning, you know, who doesthe dirty work in our society?
Where Where does it end upfalling? Well, it falls to
people like Harriet, you know,she was she was earning $12 an
hour at that prison. By the way,she wasn't actually a state
employee, she was working forHorizon, which was, which is a

(25:56):
private contractor, privatecompany, that contracts to
provide mental health servicesin prisons. And that arrangement
was done to save money by thestate of Florida saves taxpayer
money, it seems like a good dealfor everyone. But it's not such
a good deal when you look atwhat it does to quality of care.

(26:17):
When you as as was done inFlorida, exposito reveal that
after Korea after theprivatization of the health
services happened, you know,deaths spiked up, and hospital
visits plummeted, becausehospital visits cost money. It
admitting someone to thehospital. So So if we look at

(26:39):
these broader structuralconditions, we see that the
conditions are really theproblem, not the rogue actors at
the bottom. And we also see thatit's not elite psychiatrists who
work at places like Dade right,it's not graduates of Harvard.
From the top psychiatricprograms. It's people like Harry
who need a job and who are doingit effectively in the shadows,

Joe Cadwell (27:04):
making just above minimum wage, from what I
understand that it's adisproportionate the demographic
is disproportionate for women,black people of color,
undocumented immigrants, highschool graduates, people that
live in rural areas seem to takethe lion's share of this dirty
work. And it is trulyunfortunate. Harriet, I

(27:26):
understand had a lot of physicalmanifestation of this trauma
that she was suffering thismental turmoil, she wanted to
keep hold of her job as a mentalhealth counselor, as poorly paid
as it was, had to internalize alot of the brutality that she
saw and it began to manifestitself physically, can you can
you talk to me about that?

Eyal Press (27:45):
Yeah. And the first time I met Harriet, I was really
struck by those manifestations.
This was several years after therainy incident had occurred. But
for one thing, she couldn'treally talk loudly about it. And
the first way I learned aboutwhat she'd been through is, she
gave me the notes of what shecalled her trauma narrative,

(28:07):
because she had kind of writtenabout what she'd been through.
The second striking thing isthat she was wearing a wig.
Because one of the physicalmanifestations of working at
date for her and of silencingherself, after she learned what
happened to Rainey, is that herhair fell out. Her literally she
lost her hair. And at first shethought, you know, is this an

(28:32):
iron deficiency in my diet? Butthen she realized, no, it's
stress. It's it's the anguishI'm feeling about working at
this place, and not honoringwhat I think my duty is, which
is to, to not allow this abuseto go on. And that's a central
theme. And all the stories Itell book, I'm trying to write

(28:54):
about document the moral andemotional burdens that come with
certain forms of labor. And wedon't really talk about those
moral and emotional burdens verymuch economists don't talk about
them. And one of the reasons Ithink economists don't talk
about them, is that they'reimpossible to measure. You can't

(29:14):
quantify what Harriet wentthrough emotionally and morally,
but you sure could see it. Andas I was saying, Bill Curtis,
you know what he said to me, alittle bit of your goodness
wears off. Well, that's another,you know, kind of burden that
goes unnoticed, but is veryreal. And in the dirty work I
look at in the book. There areeffectively two groups that

(29:39):
suffer from this work. One are,you know, people like Darren
Rainey right the people who aregetting inadequate care or who
are, you know, being treated inmorally suspect ways, but the
second group that incurs someinjury from this work For the
people who do the work, youknow, at people like Harriet and

(30:02):
some of the other characters wecan talk about in the book. And
through their stories, I thinkwe can start talking about what
I call moral inequality. Youknow, we've all we've heard a
lot about inequality in Americain recent years. And when we
talk about inequality, it tendsto be, you know, the CEO makes
300 times what the averageworker makes, or salaries and

(30:24):
high tech are x compared tosalaries at McDonald's. And
that, and that's important, andit's real, it's the monetary
quantifiable stuff. But I thinkthere's something else called
Moral inequality that dividesour society just as much. And
moral inequality is, who doesthe degrading, stigmatized work?

(30:47):
who bears the psychic andemotional burdens of doing that
work? You know, who does a jobthey may not want to talk about
in polite company? Becausepeople kind of look at you in a
funny way. Harriet, by the way,didn't talk about what she did.
She worked at a date. And if youread about, you know, and talk

(31:10):
to prison guards, they'll oftentell you, you know, yeah, my
brother was a cop, you know, hegets to, you know, brag about
that. But but not us not Not,not this line of work. You know,
they don't, they don't even seeus as real law enforcement. So
it's, it's the moral andemotional inequality that
mirrors I think, economicinequality in our, in our

(31:32):
country, if we really want toget the full picture of what
inequality does.

Joe Cadwell (31:38):
And I think a lot of this inequality, definitely
during the Occupy Wall Streetmovement, kind of came to light
the financial inequality, incomeinequality. And, you know, it's
one thing when you're a hedgefund manager, and you're, you're
doing the dirty work, so tospeak of, of mismanaging
people's fortunes, and butyou're being adequately

(32:00):
compensated. So you know, foryour dirty work, and it takes
away a lot of the stigma, butwhen you have people like
Harriet, or as we'll find outFlora Martinez, or are the folks
in the military, they aren'tbeing adequately compensated and
that and they are in a positionwhere they just can't easily
walk away. They don't have agolden parachute, should they
walk away from that morallycompromised job they have,

(32:21):
they're just struggling tryingto make ends meet. And it's it's
really unfortunate that, as yousaid, it's a systemic problem
that that puts people in thesepositions that cause this moral
as well, I hope talk a littlebit a little bit more about the
moral injury that will occur tothem.

Eyal Press (32:39):
Yeah, I mean, you make a great point there. And I
think it's, it's a point that isso often missed, but you know,
people say, Well, wait a minute,you know, aren't the guys on
Wall Street? Also? Like, isn'tthat also dirty work or
lobbyists in Washington? Youknow, isn't that dirty work?
Don't they get a lot of, youknow, grief for what they do?

(32:59):
Why are you talking about, youknow, these these folks who do
these kinds of dead end jobs,like working in a prison? And
what I would say is that the keydifference, and you just talked
about it is money, status, andpower. Right? If you are taking
home, you know, a six or sevenfigure bonus from working on

(33:22):
Wall Street at a hedge fund orwhatever it is. Yeah, you know,
so So the folks who are atOccupy Wall Street are saying
nasty things about you. Butyou're also dining at really
nice restaurants, you're alsoyou know, able to vacation at
you know, posh resorts, flyfirst class, take your kids or
your family to, you know,wherever, wherever they want to

(33:43):
want to go. And, and money, Ithink confers virtue in our
society, you know, it is is away not only to kind of launder
immoral activity sometimes, butalso just to kind of feel like
you are part of the good insociety, you know, you're
successful. Therefore, who whocan point a finger at you, I

(34:04):
think is very different forfolks who don't have power,
money, access to resources, allthat

Joe Cadwell (34:12):
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(34:59):
their way home for over 20years. I think the second part
of your book behind the screens,the the joystick warriors, looks
at people that joined themilitary with more of an
idealistic pursuit of post 911patriotism to step up to honor
their, their country to do theirservice for their country. And,

(35:22):
you know, I know you talk aboutChristopher Aaron in the book, I
was also really impressed withHeather Lindbergh story. And I
was hoping you could talk to usa little bit more about these
people that that got into themilitary, because they either
financially didn't have theability to pursue higher
education. It was a way to servetheir country, and they found

(35:42):
themselves doing their fairshare of dirty work.

Eyal Press (35:47):
Yes. So So I think that what what drew me to look
at the military, andparticularly drone operators,
people who are doing this kindof, you know, these desk
soldiers, in effect, are twothings. One is that we have, you

(36:08):
know, I call it the other 1%.
And I'm borrowing there fromfrom others, but, you know, we
don't have a draft in thiscountry. So. So, here, again,
there's this way in which onlysome members of society and, you
know, bearing the burdens offighting worse of putting their
lives at risk and also ofsuffering, you know, PTSD and

(36:30):
all kinds of other things,including moral injury, which,
which we'll talk about ingreater detail. Now, some
people, some listeners are goingto say, Now, wait a minute.
Okay. That's that may be true.
But but this is, you know, thisis something that America honors
right, we have Veterans Day, wesoldiers are saluted at sports
events. And you know, what, whyis this dirty work? But then

(36:55):
let's, let's talk about droneoperators, right. Here's a form
of warfare, that, you know, hasgrown and is really has kept
America has kind of never endingwars going on as as we speak.
But where you don't actually setfoot on the battlefield? You

(37:15):
know? And is their honor inthat? And and some people will
say, yes, there is. But whendrone, when the drone operators
asked to receive a medal ofhonor, like other soldiers, a
lot of veterans objected tothat. And the Department of

(37:36):
Defense ended up deciding well,they shouldn't get a medal of
honor in the same way thatsoldiers conventional soldiers
do.

Joe Cadwell (37:44):
I'm sorry, to chastise them saying it would be
a Nintendo metal,

Eyal Press (37:47):
exactly a Nintendo metal for and this is another
term that they sometimes hearfor joystick workers, right?
What are these guys doing, youknow, they're sitting at a desk,
they're not, they're not puttingtheir

Joe Cadwell (37:57):
1000s of miles away, not putting their their
lives on risk. And I think,again, what as we lead into the
moral injury, when it becomes anissue of Kill or be killed, when
you're truly on a battlefield,someone is you're actively
engaged in combat, and someonethat is trying to take your
life, it will allow you toconceptualize the deeds that you

(38:18):
need to do in a differentfashion. But when you're sitting
1000s of miles away in an airconditioned Conex, box, 45
minutes outside of Las Vegas atCreech Air Force Base, you know,
viewing remote imagery from froman aerial drone, it's a
different story when it comestime to, to make that
calculation that takes people'slives.

Eyal Press (38:39):
Absolutely. And so so the thing about, you know, if
we want to be blunt about itabout killing, is that in the
military, it is sanctioned,right. War is, as you said,
sometimes comes down to kill orbe killed, defend your country
or, or risk, you know, the deathof comrades yourself, civilians,

(39:02):
etc. But what if you can'tactually say that your your life
was on the line, right? And soand what drone warfare does, is
it, it takes the risk away forthe folks who are watching those
screens, but who are makingdecisions that can have life and
death consequences, and do havelife and death consequences. So

(39:24):
I wanted to focus and maybe Ishould just say a little about
specific people to give readersa sense of how this work. So
Chris Aaron is one of the formerdrone operators I write about.
And Chris was after 911 feltvery idealistic, wanted to serve
his country, you know, starteddoing some some various things

(39:45):
and then telogen 's unit andthen ended up participating in
the drone program. And at thebeginning, when he saw the
strikes, hitting and, you know,got involved in all of this, and
he felt that These strikes werehitting the quote unquote bad
guys who were responsible for911. He felt pretty good about

(40:08):
it, he felt fine with it. Infact, he, at some level, felt
the kind of rush of wow, look atthis technology. Look what we
can

Joe Cadwell (40:15):
do. There's a lot of high fiving going on, as I
seem to remember in the book,and then at some point that that
adrenaline turned todisillusionment,

Eyal Press (40:24):
yes. And this is actually very, although this
happened a long time ago. ForChris, it's very, it's very
relevant to what just happened.
The turnaround for Chris waswhen he was deployed in
Afghanistan at one point, andhe's there on the ground. And
this is some time later. Andhe's realizing that all of
these, that the story of thesuccess of the war that he's had

(40:46):
in his head, is not actuallywhat's playing out on the
ground. In fact, he can't evengo the military can't even go to
areas where some of thosestrikes were happening. Because
they're in enemy hands at thispoint. And, as he's sort of
starting to doubt the story he'sbeen told about the war and how

(41:07):
well it's going, he begins tobreak down physically. It's
just, you know, it's a sort ofecho of what we talked about
with Harriet. And you know, he'sa very robust guys, a former
high school wrestling champ. Hecan't get out of bed, he's
having to just have problems.
He's having all kinds of just,he just feels weak. He doesn't

(41:30):
know what's wrong with him. Andhe now realizes he was entering
what he refers to as a kind ofdark night of the soul, where he
was starting to question, thedecisions he'd made, and the
strikes that he'd seen andparticipated in. Because what
really came up with that, andwho did we actually hit? Do I Do

(41:52):
I really know who that it was aterrorist or, you know,
sometimes they couldn't see. Andespecially in the early days of
the program, you know, it wasvery fuzzy what they actually
saw. And so he starts to developthese doubts. And this is where
I bring in the concept of moralinjury. And, you know, a lot of

(42:12):
folks are familiar with PTSD iskind of the combat wounds that
veterans experience. And weassociate that with kind of life
threatening experiences thatpeople went through that trigger
them for a long time afterwards,sometimes for years or an entire
lifetime. Because of the kind offear response that goes on. You

(42:35):
were at a, you know, battle, youroadside bomb went off, and you
keep reliving that experience.
But as veterans were coming backfrom America's wars in
Afghanistan and Iraq, some ofthem were saying, you know,
that's not really my problem.
You know, what really troublesme is something else. And this

(42:57):
is where the concept of moralinjury will start starts to come
in an injury not based on havingsurvived a near death
experience, but from havingwitnessed or participated in
Acts that go against one's ownvalues and beliefs. You know,
you're at a roadside juncture.
And you think there's an armedgroup in a car and someone opens

(43:21):
fire. And it turns out, therewas a family in that car of
civilians. You know, you calledin a strike, because, again, you
thought this was enemy occupied,and the smoke clears. And what
you see instead is that this wasa residential building. How do
you live with that? And what'sdeveloped in the VA, some VA

(43:45):
psychiatrists have kind ofreally pushed for this to be
part of the conversation aboutthe wounds of war, is this
concept of moral injury, thatit's a wound to the soul, not
really, to the brain, you know,and it's, it's about how do I,
you know, I've dirtied my handsin some ways. And what I try to
emphasize, and again, this goesback to every Hughes is that

(44:09):
these moral injuries don't justbelong to the drone operators.
They belong to all of us.
Because drone warfare, again, isa very convenient, and I think,
unconsciously sanctioned way togo on with our wars without

(44:30):
really having to pay any price,the

Joe Cadwell (44:33):
unconscious mandate, again, given by the
American people, through thatthe politicians that they elect
that set policies in regards toour foreign affairs.

Eyal Press (44:43):
Absolutely. And actually, and I emphasize this
in the book, you know, thisisn't one party. The drone
program began in the Bushadministration. It was vastly
expanded under Barack Obama, andthen expanded even more under
Donald Trump, and so it's notone party. And and, you know,

(45:05):
everyone I talked to said thesame thing about Congress, which
is, yeah, they could do a littlemore oversight. Pretty happy not
doing it. You know, they'repretty content to just kind of
let this go on in the shadows.
And, you know, I think that,that that's where the
unconscious mandate comes in.

Joe Cadwell (45:23):
Sure. And the moral injury again, you know, you have
the industrial military complex,generating billions, if not
trillions of dollars duringthese wars, and you have the
high level officials that, thatwill make orders that eventually
trickle down to someone like aChris Aaron, or Heather, who are
actually the ones who are havingto internalize that again. And,

(45:47):
and part of it, from myunderstanding, never been in
actual combat. But after comingoff a patrol in a foreign land,
where you maybe you've exchangedfire, at least you have the
ability to process with peoplethat were in the same vehicle in
the same battalion, platoon,whatever, that and you could
talk it out, back when, when thedust settled, these folks who

(46:10):
are geographically isolated1000s of miles away from the
battlefield, have to take that,that the actions, internalize
them. And then when they leavework, so to speak, and I think
you mentioned it in the book,you'll you'll get a text saying,
Hey, can you pick up milk on theway home? And these people are
internalizing the stresses thatthey're brought down from from

(46:32):
the very top? And the low leveloperators are the ones that,
again, have the physicalmanifestation of their actions
in the moral injury?

Eyal Press (46:40):
Absolutely. And by the way, you know, some
listeners may say, Well, okay,so So Chris Aaron, led through
that, but typical drone dropoperator, just, you know,
presses a button goes homedoesn't think about it, right?
Wrong. I, my source for this isthe military itself, you know,

(47:01):
they've they've now donestudies, surveys of folks in the
drone program, and found a veryhigh level, in fact, higher than
conventional pilots level ofstress, which is leading to high
levels of burnout. And so what'sthe source of that stress? And I
went to some of these dronebases, and I was struck, first

(47:24):
of all, that they have teams ofchaplains and psychologists,
and, you know, folks who arethere to, in a sense, try to
provide support

Joe Cadwell (47:33):
to human performance teams that you've
mentioned. Right? Thepsychologist, the chaplains, in
the, in the psychiatrist, yeah.
Working to try to keep thesepeople, you know, saying as they
commit these horrific acts on aday to day basis,

Eyal Press (47:47):
yeah. And then those, those people are not
going to tell you it's a videogame. It's easy, because what
they see what it is, you know,one, one of the one of the folks
in that human performance teamsaid to me, you know, guy came
up to him and said, you know,what is Jesus going to say about
all the killing, I've seen itdone, you know, and I didn't, I
didn't ask about that. That'sjust what came up spontaneously

(48:10):
in this conversation. And thenhe went on to say, you know, we
don't really see PTSD, in thisin this group. But we see, we
see a lot of moral injury.
Because, you know, as you say,you you're watching this graphic
violence on screen, you're inwhat's called the kill chain,
where life and death decisionsare made that low cost lives,

(48:31):
and then you come out of that,and instead of having the esprit
de corps of a conventionalcombat unit, you get in your
car, and you drive on the on theroad. And, you know, I went to
Creech, which is in Nevada, andyou know, half an hour later,
you're seeing the billboards forthe casinos, you know, and

(48:52):
you're seeing the touristindustry, and you're seeing this
kind of society that is totallydisconnected from the wars being
fought in their name. And thatjust really stayed with me when
I was there, that God, you know,these guys are in this program
watching this day in day outshift after shift, and they go

(49:14):
back to a society that hasforgotten there's even a war
going on. And that, again, isthis kind of arrangement of I
think, you know, delegating thedirty work, hiding it in the
shadows, and then you don'tthink about it anymore.

Joe Cadwell (49:33):
You open your book, I'll just have to throw on you
open your book with that Baldwinquote that says the powerless
must do their own dirty work,the powerful habit done for
them. And if you could lay theanalogy that you know, the
powerless are the operators andthe powerful are, again, the
industrial military complex headthat puts these people in these

(49:55):
positions. Speaking speaking ofthat, the yes part of For your
book on the kill floors, and theshadow people, I stumbled across
a term I'd never heard beforewhen I was reading through that
the virtuous consumers, of whichI feel that I am definitely a
virtuous consumer. Join thecrowd. Yeah, I'm hoping we can

(50:18):
transition out of the droneprogram now to the to the kill
floors, where we meet floorMartinez, and hoping you tell us
a little more about floor story.

Eyal Press (50:27):
Yeah, so Florida Martinez was an undocumented
immigrant who worked in apoultry slaughterhouse that I
write about in the book, it'slocated in Texas, it's owned by
Sanderson Farms, and she wastypical of the workforce in this
plant. And I think people haveread a fair amount, if they've

(50:49):
read it all about, you know, theindustrial meat system, they
probably read about how theanimals are treated, and just
the hormones that go into it,you know, books, like written by
Michael Pollan and others,others about the kind of, you
know, what does it mean? That,that these are animals, after

(51:10):
all, these are living beings,and you know, and just, and even
if you believe, well, eatingmeats, fine, do we have to do it
on this scale in this way, youknow, in such a way where cows
can't, or chickens can't walk,because they're pumped up with
so many hormones, you know, allthis. But in my book, there's a
different focus. And it's aboutthe dehumanizing conditions for

(51:33):
the workers in these plants.
And, you know, for Martinezexperienced those conditions in
two ways. One was just, youknow, the lines in this plant
are moving so fast, and therepetitive motions are so
constant, that she starts toexperience repetitive strain
injuries, you know, pain in oneone hand, that hand gets better

(51:57):
than the other hand goes bad. Ididn't interview a single worker
at that plant. The minute Iasked, you know, do you have any
injuries, it start pointing tothings, you know, yeah, my
shoulder, this, I can't do this,I can't do that at this. That's
one level of it. And thatcreates a lot of strain and a
lot of turnover. But there'sanother level, and that is the

(52:19):
sort of the more than emotionalimpact of the labor because of
the degrading conditions. And atthis particular plan, the
supervisors would yell at theworkers when they wanted to take
bathroom breaks, you weren'tsupposed to do that. Why?
Because the line is goingaround, and it slows things

(52:41):
down, and it cuts production.
And after all, we've got to, youknow, maximize the amount that
we produce per hour. And as aconsequence of that many members
of the female workforce at theslaughterhouse, they couldn't go
to the bathroom, they literallycould not take a bathroom break.

(53:01):
And I interviewed one woman whosaid, you know, I used to go to
work with a sanitary napkin, oran extra pair of pants. And as
she's telling me this, shestarts to cry. And this was not
for Martinez. But for Martinez,when she talked to me about some
of the things she'd gonethrough. She also starts to cry.

(53:24):
And I keep seeing this. And it'sa pattern. And what it tells you
is that the sense ofdegradation, the the assault on
dignity, is as bad as thephysical injuries that that
these workers have incurred. Andthat makes sense, right?
Because, you know, I think itwas Joe Biden who said this, is

(53:47):
when he accepted the nomination,he told a story about his
father. And he said when herecounted that story, he said,
you know, his father told him,Joey, the job isn't just a
paycheck. It's a source ofdignity, it's about your place
in the community. Well, if yourdignity is being assaulted, and

(54:08):
if it's an if your place in thecommunity is really not very
settled, then then youexperiencing something very
different. And so I connect allof that to the other side of the
meat industrial system, which isthe consumers who, who you know,
buy this packaged meat or, youknow, sometimes meat that comes

(54:34):
in a nice little, you know, fastfood chain wrapped up and
doesn't really even look likemeat or look like an animal
product of any kind at the otherend, and it's the demand for
cheap, plentiful, you know,chicken, which is America's most
popular meat and other forms ofanimal protein that are related

(54:59):
to the conditions that you seein the slaughterhouse in terms
of virtuous consumers. So what'sinteresting there is that, you
know, I came across that term, Ihadn't heard of it before
myself. And I,I qualify as one of them as
well. But what's happened overthe last 1015 years, thanks to
Michael Pollan and other expertdays, is that a lot of people

(55:21):
who buy and eat meat, want toknow something about the
conditions, right? So they don'tjust want to buy whatever
supermarket meat is there to buy

Joe Cadwell (55:31):
just the meat, they want to buy the story. Yes, how
the animal lived, how the thefarmer, the farm was for the
farmers, that family worked.
It's, it's, you're buying awhole package at that point.

Eyal Press (55:43):
Absolutely. And so you, you look for the label that
says humanely raised, and youlook for the label that says no
hormones, and you look for thelabel that says, you know,
family, farm and all of that.
And, you know, on one level, youcan say that's a form of
progress. And I think thatthat's true, I think that, you
know, it's very important. Forwe are in a consumer society, we

(56:06):
are in a capitalist system, webuy things every day, it's very
important that people do thinkabout whether what they're
buying, and what's behind whatthey're buying, what went into
it. But what those labels don'ttell you is how were the workers
treated? You know, there's neversays humanely treated employees.
And they don't necessarilyaddress the systemic conditions,

(56:31):
right? Because, because whatpeople could do is say, Well,
I'm not going to dirty, I'm notgoing to feel bad because I only
buy the virtuous meat that'ssold. So I can feel good about
what I do. Meanwhile, the systemthat is feeding the country goes
on. And so again, we havestructural conditions that I

(56:55):
think create, you know,compromising situations for a
lot of people, we're

Joe Cadwell (57:03):
all complicit at some point, that unconscious
mandate that we've referred toso many times, you could say, I
don't believe in war. So I, youknow, I don't feel responsible,
personally responsible for fordrone strikes, or I'd I don't
know anyone in the prisonsystem, I've never committed a
crime myself. So, you know, whyshould I care, but we all at
some level consume, whetherit's, you know, from a killing

(57:24):
floor of a slaughterhouse, orthe conditions that we expose
our migrant farm workers to, orwhen we go to pump gas into our
vehicles, and the the fuelindustry does its own sir, sort
of degradation of the planet andthe people that do the work,
even now with emergingtechnologies in the cobalt, as

(57:44):
you mentioned, at the one of thelast chapters in your book, the
cobalt mining, similar to myunderstanding, some blood
diamonds, you know, and, and thedirty work that it takes to
mined those precious gems andthe people that profit from it
and the whole system. So it doesseem like again, going back a
disproportionate amount of thiswork is being put forth on the

(58:08):
undocumented workers on the thepoor, the uneducated women,
people of color. And I washoping al that you could you
could speak a little bit abouthow you feel unions organized
labor unions in America may beable to better the working
conditions of the people thatare being asked to do these
jobs, maybe not make themperfect, but at least better

(58:30):
them so that we can kind ofclean the hands of the dirty
workers.

Eyal Press (58:35):
I think there's no question that that unions are an
important potential leveragepoint to alter the conditions of
labor like this. And the bestexample would be in meatpacking.
And, you know, you mentionedUpton Sinclair, and the jungle,
did not put in 100 years agoabout the brutal conditions in

(59:01):
you know, slaughterhouses thatwere then in Chicago, and the
big cities in America. And, youknow, that book had an impact,
you know, leading to the passageof new regulations and laws. But
it also changed conditions inthe industry changed because of

(59:23):
union activism and unions thattook really progressive stance
in you know, both integratingrepresenting workforces that
were racially divided andintegrating them and, you know,
uniting them in a common causeto to have better conditions.
But that sort of golden era, ifyou will, you know, it didn't

(59:45):
make me packing and dirty Imean, it was still a job that
involved the killing of animalsand

Joe Cadwell (59:53):
hard physical labor dangerous conditions at time.
But, but they were able to takebreaks be a little more
adequately compensated did notneed to carry a second pair of
pants to work.

Eyal Press (01:00:04):
Exactly. And then in the 70s, you had a new model,
unfortunately, that arose,pioneered by a company called
IBP. And that was based inNebraska. And basically they
said, you know, why should wehave these slaughterhouses in
these big cities, let's relocatethem out in these rural areas

(01:00:25):
closer to where the factoryfarms are. So you reduce cost
that way. And the other way youreduce costs is through labor.
Instead of going, you know,getting that big, expensive
union contract. Let's hire someundocumented folks, you know,
let's hire some some immigrantlaborers who will not demand as

(01:00:45):
much and who will not complain,when we order them not to take
bathroom breaks, because theymay be afraid not just to lose
their jobs, but to be deported.
And, you know, in for Martinezcase, she talked to me a lot
about that, that this fear thatexists in these plants, you
know, the last thing you want todo is get in trouble. So you
become very docile. And that, ofcourse, puts all the power in

(01:01:09):
the hands of the companies. Soyeah, unions can can make a big
difference.

Joe Cadwell (01:01:17):
Al, what do you hope that people will come away
with after reading your book?

Eyal Press (01:01:22):
Um, I very much hope that first of all, just
awareness, that there are thingsbeing done in our name, there
are things that we are complicitin, that we can't claim not to
be involved in. You know, I'mnot trying to guilt the reader,
but I am trying to raiseawareness to get conversations

(01:01:44):
going about, you know, is thisthe kind of society we want? Do
we do we want to be a societywhere, you know, jails and
prisons are de facto mentalhealth asylums? Do we want to be
a society where the food we eatbehind it lies a story of, you
know, gross exploitation, notjust of animals, but of people.

(01:02:05):
So that's one level. I think theother thing is, I'd like to have
a different conversation arisearound both inequality and
accountability. And theinequality piece we talked
about, you know, that, that it'snot just economic, it's also
moral. The accountability thingis who we end up blaming, when

(01:02:29):
we hear about dirty work, youknow, and if you whether it's
the story that I told the verygraphic story of what happened
to Darren Rainey, or the storyyou occasionally see in a
newspaper, we've seen itrecently of an errant drone
strike, right? Who tends to lookwhere the fingers get pointed,

(01:02:51):
they tend to get pointed at thefolks at the lowest rungs, you
know, oh, wow, who wasresponsible for that must have
been someone, you know, a couplebad guards. Where we don't think
responsibility, where we don'tlook as much is to the people at
the top, and to the broadersociety and those who hold power

(01:03:12):
in our society. And, and, andthe voters and the citizens who
confer power to those people.
You know, the Florida system,you know, the responsibility
went to the top it should havegone to then Governor Scott, who
has now of course, SenatorScott, you know, in in the case
of some of the military scandalsthat we've had like Abu Ghraib,
we've we tended to blame, youknow, people like lynndie

(01:03:36):
England and low rankingreservists and no senior
officials, you know, no one atthe top. So I'd like us to think
about, you know, broaderaccountability and, and to take
it away from just the folks whoget stigmatized at the bottom.

Joe Cadwell (01:03:56):
Absolutely. Well, Al press, this has been a
fantastic conversation. Wherecan people go to find out more
about you and your book?

Eyal Press (01:04:03):
So my Twitter handle is, is at Eyal Press. I have a
website www.eyalpress.com whereyou can read about the book and
also read some of the journalismI do tends to have a sort of

(01:04:26):
social justice. Ben,

Joe Cadwell (01:04:28):
thank you so much for taking your time to be on
the show. It's been a realpleasure.

Eyal Press (01:04:31):
Great to be here.
Thanks so much for theconversation.

Joe Cadwell (01:04:34):
My guest today has been Eyal Press author of Dirty
Work- Essential Jobs and theHidden Toll of Inequality in
America. His book is availableon amazon.com and bookstores
everywhere. Find out more aboutAl and his work visit
eyalpress.com. That'seyalpress.com. Also, be sure to

(01:04:56):
check out the show notes to findmore information to help you
dive deeper into subject. Asalways, thank you for your
continued support. And untilnext time, this is Joe Cadwell
reminding you to work safe, worksmart and stay union strong!!
I see that we are recording soI'll just do a quick welcome and
then we'll, we'll get going soand I apologize, but I heard it

(01:05:19):
pronounced three times threedifferent way. Al,

Eyal Press (01:05:22):
AL Yeah, Al Al.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. Allright.

Joe Cadwell (01:05:27):
So 321