March 7, 2023 • 32 mins
On this episode I have the pleasure of speaking with management professor, leadership expert and author of, The Seismic Shift in Leadership.
Her name is Michelle Johnston and on today’s show we discuss her book to learn more about how to be a better, more connected leader in today’s world whether in the boardroom or on the jobsite.
We’ll open our conversation by learning what the seismic shift is and why the transition from an old-school style of command-and-control leadership to one of collaboration and teamwork is beneficial to a company’s bottom line and moral.
Next, we’ll unpack a few of the themes from Michelle’s book that contribute to this shift, beginning with self-connection, and why being authentic and true to your brand is so important to your role as a leader.
Later, we’ll discuss the significance of having values that are in alignment with your organization and how owning your calendar can be so empowering to your career.
And we’ll wrap up our conversation by discussing influences in Michelle’s journey to being an executive coach and why surrounding herself with positive role models was so crucial to building the future that she wanted to achieve.
The Show Notes
https://michellekjohnston.com/book/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Cadwell (00:08):
Welcome to Grit Nation. I'm Joe Cadwell, the
host of the show, and on today'sepisode, I have the pleasure of
speaking with managementprofessor, leadership expert and
author of the seismic shift inleadership. Her name is Michelle
Johnston. And on today's show,we discuss her book to learn
more about how to be a better,more connected leader in today's
world, whether it's in theboardroom or on the job site,
(00:30):
we'll open our conversation bylearning what the seismic shift
is, and why the transition froman old school style of command
and control leadership are oneof collaboration and teamwork is
beneficial to company's bottomline, and morale. Next, we'll
unpack a few of the themes fromMichelle's book that contribute
to this shift. Beginning withself connection, why being
authentic and true to your brandis so important to your role as
(00:52):
a leader. Later, we'll discussthe significance of having
values that are in alignmentwith your organization, and how
owning your calendar can be soempowering to your career. And
we'll wrap up our conversationby discussing influences and
Michelle's journey to being anexecutive coach, and why
surrounding yourself withpositive role models was so
(01:14):
crucial to building the futurethat she wanted to achieve.
After the show, be sure to checkout the show notes for more
information about MichelleJohnston and her book, a seismic
shift. And now on to the show.
Michelle Johnson, welcome toGrit Nation.
Michelle Johnston (01:38):
Thank you so much, Joe. I'm excited to be
here.
Joe Cadwell (01:40):
Michelle, I'm super excited to have you on the show
today as well. I've really beenenjoying reading your book, The
seismic shift in leadership. Ithink it's got a lot to offer
for my listener audience today.
But before we get into yourbook, Michelle, perhaps we can
learn a little bit about yourbackstory.
Michelle Johnston (01:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah. So I'm a managementprofessor at Loyola University,
New Orleans, been there for over20 years, I teach leadership and
strategic communication. And itwas in my my role as an
executive coach, I coach, Iusually have a roster of about
18 to 20 executives that Icoach. And a number of years
ago, this was right before thepandemic, I was seeing a seismic
(02:16):
shift happening in theworkplace, that the leaders who
still thought that command andcontrol and authoritarian style
of leadership was effective,they were getting pushed out of
organizations. And so that's whyI wrote the book, the seismic
shift in leadership. And as faras I understand, this is a best
seller, best seller. I'm just soso incredibly grateful. And I
(02:38):
think the reason why it's a bestseller, Joe, is that in March of
2020, I was supposed to besending it off to the publisher.
And that's when the whole worldshut down. And I realized
everybody on this planet that wecall Earth was about to be
disconnected. But I just wrote abook on connection. And that was
not gonna go well. So I askedthe publisher, if I could go
(03:01):
back and interview half of theglobal leaders, I interviewed 18
global leaders initially. Andthen I went back and interviewed
half of them to figure out howin the world we connect in a
disconnected world. And so thenI just published the book this
past spring. And I think that'swhy it went global. And it's
been a best sellers, becausewe're all trying to figure out
(03:24):
how to connect.
Joe Cadwell (03:27):
Okay, so before we get into the shift that has
seismically changed, what wasthe old style of leadership?
What was the old paradigm? Andwhy was it not working?
Michelle Johnston (03:36):
Yeah, so it was very command and control.
And it was about power, power,power, much more authoritarian.
And people were told back thenthat professionals professional,
personal is personal. You don'tmix the two. And, you know,
bring your professional self towork and kind of, you know, I
have I have a guy that I coach,great, great leader and coming
(03:58):
out of the pandemic, because Ihaven't seen my people in two
years. I said, Well, why don'the goes, I was thinking about
having them over for a cookout.
I said, Why don't you He said,Because of my former job. My
former boss told me that Icouldn't do that. Professional
was professional, personal waspersonal. And and that just is
not the case anymore,particularly coming out of the
pandemic. We've all seen eachother's dogs and babies and
(04:18):
homes and you realize that inorder to be happy, in this
world, we spend so much time atwork, we just have to figure out
how to have a life, not a worklife and a personal life. It's
how do you create and curateyour own life? And how do you
want that to look? And what Ifound the seismic shift was
referring to is that too manypeople thought that they just
(04:40):
had to put on this mask ofperfection and show up as these
very inauthentic people who youknow believe that your your
reward for coming to work wasyour paycheck. You shouldn't
like it. You shouldn't befriends with your people. It
shouldn't be a happy place and Ihonestly think that it,
everything has changed. Sincecoming out the pandemic,
(05:02):
everything we're blowing up,We're disrupting everything, how
we work, who we work with whenwe work, what meetings look
like, how they should run, I waswhere I did a did a keynote
yesterday to a hospital system.
And I said that old command andcontrol, you know, is gone. And
they stood up. And I said, Sowhat are you doing to connect
(05:23):
and leader stood up and said, Wedon't want any more of those
formal rigid meetings anymore,we're now going to do huddles,
we're going to have coffeetogether three mornings a week
for 15 minutes, rather thanthose two hours, you have to
prepare these PowerPointpresentations and show up and
try to be perfect. That's notconnection.
Joe Cadwell (05:43):
So it went from an old school sort of transactional
relationship towards leadership,top down sort of leadership. And
now what you're saying is, it'smore of a transformational
leadership where a leader willlead by example, a leader who
will make themselves vulnerable,a leader will so listen to the
people that they are workingwith.
Michelle Johnston (06:02):
Joe, you are absolutely correct. I love how
you just framed that, yes, Ilook at communication, as much
more transactional, I'm talkingabout true meaningful
connection. And what does thatlook like? What does that feel
like? What does that sound like?
And what I've learned throughoutall of this, because so many
leaders now will say, Well,Michelle, I want to know, if I'm
doing a good job connecting withmy people, we you know, our
(06:24):
company does an engagementsurvey. But how do I know if I'm
meaningfully connecting. And soI finally spent a lot of time
figuring out, if your peoplefeel that they are seen, heard,
valued and appreciated, thenyou're doing a really good job
connecting. And it's got to beso much more intentional, like
you said, you have to embedtime, so that you are a leader
(06:48):
who listens, versus a leader whomicromanage is in talks the
whole time, you have to be aleader who's more of a servant
leader, I'm here to develop you,I'm here to empower you. It's
really a shift in power. Thepeople have no employees have
never had as much power as theydo today in the workforce. And I
think it is, is definitelygotten the attention of leaders
(07:11):
like Whoa, it's not all aboutpower, they now have power. And
they actually want to findpurpose, and meaning they want
to like what they do. And if I'mgoing to be a successful leader,
I've got to make it about them.
Joe Cadwell (07:26):
So till today, as a modern leader to lead modern
workers, you have to understandthe currency in which they're
trading. And it's not alwaysabout money. It's about feeling
respect. It's about feeling likeyou're contributing to something
greater than oneself.
Michelle Johnston (07:41):
I love it. So frame things, you are absolutely
right, the currency now. And sothe great resignation could be
relabeled, the greatreprioritization for the great
re evaluation. So we did hearfrom those, you know, millions
of people who left theworkforce, that some of them did
it because they were tired ofcommutes, right, they wanted a
(08:02):
little bit control of theirschedule, they wanted more
money. But what we heard most isthat people wanted to be valued
and appreciated and aligned andfeel really good about the work
they're doing and who they'redoing it for. So a lot of people
left the workforce because theywere just fed up.
Joe Cadwell (08:20):
And the alignment is a key word. I've heard you
mentioned that on other people'spodcasts, the alignment, what
your values are, where you seeyourself within the structure of
the company, will greatlydetermine, you know, sort of
your attitude when you show upto work and your book, The
seismic shift is designed fromthe perspective of helping
leaders become better leaders.
Absolutely. Because
Michelle Johnston (08:43):
what I've realized this seismic shift in
leadership style, the leaderswho were getting pushed out Joe,
the seismic shift was that theywere trying to be somebody that
they weren't their old formerboss, their mentor and old
coach, they were kind of phoningit in like, well, this is what
leadership is supposed to looklike, I'm supposed to have all
the answers, I'm supposed tocontrol everything and everyone,
(09:06):
I'm supposed to do all thetalking, I give the directives,
right. But the seismic shiftreally is internal. If you're
going to meaningfully connectwith your people. First and
foremost, you have to beconnected with yourself. You
have to know who you are, whatyour story is, you have to
understand your strengths, yourblind spots. So much of
(09:28):
connection with yourself isabout spending time reflecting
and truly becoming aware of whoyou are and what you bring to
the table so that you can alignand find a job that brings out
your strengths and find thatfind an organization that you're
proud of that takes a lot ofeffort and time that really is
the seismic shift, it's got tostart with you.
Joe Cadwell (09:50):
So again, we'll get into the three different parts
of your book. Obviously we'regoing to start with the you
know, the shift in yourself, theconnection with your team and
then the can election with thewith the organization. So
getting back to understandingyourself understanding your
brand, your style, your level ofauthenticity you bring as a
leader that, as you said, comesa lot from within. But you've
(10:13):
also embraced a strategy calledI think it's three 360 feedback.
Michelle Johnston (10:17):
Yeah, I think that's the most powerful tool
that you have as a leader is oneof the leaders that I
interviewed for my book. Andhe's the CEO of a system that I
work for that I coach, a lot ofthe leaders, it's called Ochsner
health. And I was interviewingWarner for the book, and he
said, Michelle, so many leaderssay I want an executive coach,
(10:39):
but I don't want a 360. AndWarner said, and I asked him why
that is the best tool for selfdiscovery. And people tell me,
Oh, I don't want people to knowwhat my weaknesses are. And
Warner said, I tell them, theyall know, they know this is for
you to grow. And I tell myleaders with discomfort comes
(10:59):
growth because so many of themthe 360s hard, you don't really
want to know how other peopleperceive you. But you have to
have it usually when I conduct a360 I interview about 1510 to 15
of this leaders key stakeholdersthat they interact with. And and
so it's about a 20 pagequalitative report of how others
(11:23):
perceive you and MarshallGoldsmith, who is my mentor, and
he's the number one executivecoach in the world. Number one
global thought leader, New YorkTimes bestselling author, and I
love his quote, he said, Michel,he said, When you are in a
position of power, you are heldhostage by how other people
perceive you. And hostage is thekey word here. It's so true.
(11:43):
Your leadership depends on howother people perceive you know,
whether it's effective or not.
So the best case scenario isjust agree to say Yes, show me
the data. I want to know howother people perceive what I'm
doing well, so I can continue todo it. And what I'm not doing so
well and give me some ideas ofhow to be better.
Joe Cadwell (12:05):
And so listening, that kind of feedback really
takes a lot of confidence andcomfortability with with who you
are. And again, if you'reworking with someone like
yourself and executive coach,and you have the structure
around you to to pull that off,that is fantastic. But a lot of
the listeners to my podcast, thegrid nation podcast, or blue
collar workers, there Foreman'sor supervisors or
(12:26):
superintendents on job sites,and getting that sort of that
sort of feedback might bedifficult for them. But what
what are some techniques? Orwhat are some strategies they
can go to sort of solicitinformation, maybe not from 360,
but at least to 70? or part oftheir crew? How can they ask for
this feedback? And what shouldthey do with that fee?
Michelle Johnston (12:44):
Yeah, that's a part of the seismic shift to
so many leaders think Well, Ican ask my people for feedback,
what I'm supposed to have allthe all the answers, and again,
do all the talking. And I'mreally advocating a total shift
in how you run your meetings. Itused to be at 20, you do 80% of
the talking because you're theleader. And then at the very
end, you might say, Do you haveany questions, and then very few
(13:06):
people speak up. And I'm notadvocating to switch that you as
the leader should be thefacilitator of your meetings,
you shouldn't be asking thequestions. It should be your
people talking, giving theiropinions giving their input, you
show that you really value it'strue collaboration, you're
creating that psychologicalsafety, that trust so that you
(13:26):
can be collaborative andinnovative. And then at the very
end, the last 20% of the meetingis you, you know giving some of
the necessary directives. Yeah,I think that that leaders think,
oh, I don't want to ask becausethen that makes me feel
vulnerable. And then they mighttake advantage of me. No, they
end up respecting you more. Oneof the things that I did when I
(13:49):
was a really self consciousyoung professor, I was I was one
of the very few professors inthe business school, who was
teaching a soft skill course Iwas teaching business
communication, I was teachingleadership, strategic
communication at the MBA level,MBA level, and I was surrounded
by my colleagues who I justidolized, and they were teaching
finance, and stock trading andeconomics and accounting. And so
(14:13):
I was self conscious andthought, Okay, I need to show
them that the soft skills ofcommunication, culture and
leadership really do drivefinancial performance. So I went
and I collected data with mycolleague, Dr. Kendra Reed, and
we wanted to know that if aleader actually does what we're
talking about Joe, and whatyou're addressing, the listeners
are thinking, oh, gosh, you'rejust how in the world do I get
(14:36):
this feedback? We wanted to knowif leaders who created a
positive team listeningenvironment, positive team
listening environment, all thatmeant was you as a leader
saying, hey, here are thenumbers from last month. Here
are our customers. Here's, youknow, things that we did well,
or here's our revenue, justtransparency and metrics how we
(14:58):
did last month. I want to hearfrom you, well, what can we do
bit better? You know, what didwe not do? So well? How can we
join our brains together andfigure this out, I want to hear
from you, we will do ittogether. Leaders who actually
had those discussions, weretransparent with the data
involved their people, they mademore money. The teams that we
(15:22):
collected the data from thesewere manufacturing facilities,
these were facilities that tookcar batteries, and turn them
into plastic portable, can'tpaint cans. So this is in the
manufacturing facility, and theleaders who really did say, I'm
a facilitator, we're going tofigure this out together as a
team, those leaders made moremoney.
Joe Cadwell (15:46):
And transformational leadership,
again, it's starting with you,it's starting with the the
individual, the leader, therecognized boss of this
particular job, if you will, butyou know, connecting with your
team is hugely important. And wework, having come from an
environment as a professionalcommercial diver within the
trades, and having really had mylife and the lives of other
(16:08):
people, you know, accountable toour actions as a team was was
hugely influential on myunderstanding and development of
my own leadership style. Butknowing your team, knowing your
people is huge. What can youtell us about that? Michelle?
Michelle Johnston (16:24):
Yeah. So the first thing that I learned in
conducting all these interviewswith with these leaders all over
the world is I said, How do youmeaningfully connect with your
team? And one of the bestleaders that I interviewed who
is one of the best leaders atconnection is one Martine, and
he's the global president ofKind bars K I N. D, the snack,
(16:44):
the granola bars? I've had a fewof those. Yeah, huh. Yeah, it's
very popular. And one of themetrics that he's evaluated on
as the global president is notjust how many bars that he
sells, but it's how many acts ofkindness. And last year was 250
million acts of kindness, likethey really are trying to make
the world a kinder place. It'sjust an incredible mission of a
(17:05):
company. And so I said, One, howin the world are you connecting
with your people. And he liftedup his expresso cup, and he
says, Michelle, I'm a European,I'm from Spain. He said, I love
my Expresso. I connect with mypeople in my meetings over
coffee. And they know thatwhether it's a 30 minute
meeting, 45 minute, 15 minutemeeting, the first five or so 10
(17:29):
minutes are going to be true.
We're drinking coffee together.
And I want to know, what wasyour family? Where'd you go on
your vacation? What are yourchildren do and how's the start
of school. So what we found fromour data, Joe, is that in order
to meaningfully connect withyour team, you have to show that
you care about them as a wholeperson, not just the results
that they're bringing to thetable. And that means it's got
(17:50):
to be intentional. And so Iadvocate that you open up your
team meetings with some sort ofjust, you know, either How are
you doing? Really, which was agreat question during the
pandemic? Because if you justsaid, How are you doing? People
thought they were supposed tosay, Okay, if you as the leader
said, How are you doing comma,really, and if the leader said,
(18:10):
this is hard, and it's okay, ifyou're not okay, if the leader
gives the team permission toreally be honest and candid,
that's all we're talking abouthere. I'm not asking for these
leaders to be therapists. I'mnot asking for these leaders, to
be best friends with theirpeople, you still need to lead
and hold your people accountableand get results. I'm asking you
(18:31):
to show up and show your peoplethat you really do care about
them as a whole person on apersonal level.
Joe Cadwell (18:38):
And I think a lot of that just starts with knowing
people's names, and reallytaking the time to invest in
just names and it sounds silly,but you can work shoulder to
shoulder for people and alwaysbe Oh, yeah, that that fell over
there, that apprentice or thatjourney level worker there. And
if you don't even take the timeto know their name, that that
really begins to set that sortof the barrier up. So I
(18:58):
encourage that a lot in theclasses I teach with my first
and second term apprentices whenI start developing, planting the
seeds of leadership early on intheir career at the first and
second term apprentice level, toget to know your people's names,
get to know a little bit abouttheir hobbies, their family, you
know, you don't have to be bestbuddies with them, but just get
to know them as a person as anindividual. And it'll make your
(19:19):
connection with them that muchstronger and make your working
life that much easier. And soconnecting with your people.
Michelle Johnston (19:27):
You're You're doing a great job with your in
your apprentice program. That isexactly what I tell my people to
and whenever I do these firesidechats with my book and we have
questions and answers. There'salways a person who comes up at
the end who says, Michelle,you're not gonna believe this. I
just went through the pandemic Iended up quitting because my
(19:47):
boss never asked me in two yearsas I was quarantining at home
alone, never even asked how Iwas doing. And then I had
another person come up to me,she said, Michelle, I'm I'm a
single woman. I have a dog Mydog's name is Gypsy, I love my
dog, I don't even think my bossknows that you know anything
about me if they just showedthat they were interested, it
(20:10):
would make such a difference.
And that's what we're talkingabout. Just show your people
that you're interested and youcare about them as humans.
Joe Cadwell (20:17):
I think I heard it when I was listening, prepping
for our interview, I waslistening to to one of the
podcasts, one of the manypodcasts, you're on Michelle.
And someone said, you know,today's workers really are
volunteers. I mean, you know,equity and pay is really sort of
leveled the playing field, thepower does seem to be in the
hands of labor now. And it's notgood enough just to work for a
check. You want to work for anorganization where you feel
(20:38):
valued and respected. And havingsomething like a positive job
site culture, on site is huge,and retention, and with
retention comes at, not washingaway the bottom 20% constantly
and having to retrain and allthe resources that go into that.
So holding on to people makingthem feel valued. Keeping them
as part of an organization andsharing a vision is instrumental
(21:00):
in success in today's verycompetitive world. So we learned
about connecting with ourselves,we learned about connecting with
our team. Before we move on fromconnecting with our team, you
have a part in your book there.
It's called the leader isservant, I think is right
servant leader. What do you meanby that?
Michelle Johnston (21:16):
Yeah, it's it's, and I learned this from a
CEO of a hospital, he said, Youknow, when I became CEO, the
organizational chart was givento me and put in front of me,
and I was at the very top. Andhe said, and I realized that the
way that I was going to beeffective, and really, you know,
improve the quality of patientcare. I turn when I meet with my
(21:38):
people, I turned theorganizational chart upside
down. And I said, No, no, no,I'm at the bottom. I said, I'm
here to support you, all you allare the ones that are delivering
the patient care. So it's aservant leadership mentality
that you are at that you're notthe one necessarily holding all
the power at the top that thepeople, your employees have the
power to deliver the bestcustomer service, the best
(22:00):
patient care. And so servantleadership is is about I want to
develop you, I want to help yoube the best version of yourself,
what can I do to remove yourbarriers, and to help you
succeed, it's just a shift inorientation towards the person
and helping the person that'swhat servant leadership is
about.
Joe Cadwell (22:24):
So now, moving on to the third one of the another
chapter in your book connectingwith the organization. So if
we've connected with ourselvesand with our team, now the
organization has an alignment ofvision, what, what got you to
write a chapter just onconnecting with the
organization?
Michelle Johnston (22:38):
Yeah, so I was interviewing these leaders,
and they were talking about, youknow, when I was asking them
about their stories, some ofthem said, Well, I got to this
place where I am. Now finally,because I had to quit many other
jobs. When I realized that Iwasn't aligned with what the
company was doing. It might beunethical, it might be, you
know, working for a product thatyou didn't believe in working, I
(23:03):
had one hospital leader who wasthe CEO of a nonprofit. And he
said, If he had been the CEO ofa for profit, and finally had to
leave, he was up in an airplaneon 911. And literally, he said,
the pilot came on and said,we've got a, I've got to fly
this plane, like a jet airplane,we've got to land immediately,
it seems that the work unit issomething he could he didn't go
(23:24):
into the details that we wereunder attack. But he said they
landed like a like a fighterjet. And as soon as I landed, I
was supposed to go and fire1000s of people. And I just
couldn't do that anymore. I'mnot that person, I couldn't be
that person. And I quit. And Ifinally found a better role for
me that was aligned with myvalues. So I heard a lot of
(23:46):
stories of, of trying to findthe right fit with with culture
and with company and withpurpose. And then once you are
in that organization, and youfeel that it's a right fit, one
of the things that you need todo to do to connect with the
organization is own yourcalendar. And that was another
big surprise, I did not thinkthat I was going to be writing a
(24:07):
chapter on owning your calendar,and Warner, Thomas, again, the
CEO of Ochsner. He said,Michelle, that is how you
connect with all of yourstakeholders is trying to figure
out who are the important peoplethat I need to communicate with
on a daily basis on a weeklybasis on a monthly basis
quarterly annually, you've gotto really think about that. And
(24:29):
you have to develop a rhythm sothat you are interacting with
the people who are going to helpyou be successful. And what does
that look like? And that's whatI was talking to you earlier,
when I was delivering the speechyesterday and I was having
everybody stand up the leadersaying what are you doing
differently now? We've got todisrupt the way that we're
working in order to connect andthey said yeah, I'm now doing
(24:52):
the 15 Minute huddles in themorning. So connection with the
organization has to do withknowing your values, making sure
that your values are aligned andYou can sleep at night working
for this company, that it's agood fit. And figuring out that
that meeting rhythm, thatoperating rhythm, that
communication rhythm so thatyou're meeting with the right
people so that you can besuccessful.
Joe Cadwell (25:14):
Speaking of success, who helped you on your
journey to be successful?
Michelle?
Michelle Johnston (25:19):
You know, I'm so blessed. In 2001. I read this
article in The New Yorkermagazine chronicling Marshall
Goldsmith, he was a leadershipcoach, I don't even know if the
word executive coach had beeninvented yet. Maybe it was
invented with this particulararticle, but it chronoa
chronicled martial going aroundand at the time, he was coaching
top level executives, and a lotof them were jerk bosses. And I
(25:43):
just remember reading thisarticle and relating so I was I
saw so many jerk bosses. And Iremember thinking in 2001, that
when I lifted my head up frompublishing, publishing,
publishing, and I had a littlebit more autonomy and freedom to
help executives that I wanted tobe an executive coach like
Marshall Goldsmith, so I torethat article out of the New
(26:04):
Yorker, and I put it in myfiling cabinet, it's still up at
Loyola to this day. So in anycase, Marshall Goldsmith, in the
back of my head was I like thisguy, I want to be like this guy,
fast forward years. And he wasabout to turn 70, on stage at
this big leadership event that Iwas there with a bunch of
leaders that I was coaching, hehad just written his book called
(26:24):
triggers. And he said, I've madeall the money I need to make, I
don't need another feather in myhat. What I want to do now is
give back, so if you want to bementored by me, send me an
email, and I sent him an email.
And he became my officialmentor. And in working together,
he invited me to be a part ofthis esteemed group that I'm so
grateful to be a part of. It'scalled 100 coaches of the top
(26:46):
global coaches in the world. Andwe get to meet on Mondays and
really discuss how we can besthelp leaders with the issues
facing them today. And it's justa fantastic experience. I feel
very blessed.
Joe Cadwell (27:01):
I'd have to say, so I've heard you mentioned it a
few times. Michelle, you talkabout global leaders, and I'm
just wondering contextually howto global leaders, people in
Europe, people in Asia, how didtheir management styles
different from those in the US?
Michelle Johnston (27:14):
Yeah, I was really worried, to be honest
with you, when I started hoppingon these global calls with
people from India and Russia,and France, and Canada, and
England and me. And wondering,and I just sent my book off to
the publisher wondering, is thisjust a American thing that I'm
seeing with connection? Is thisgoing to be applicable. And I
(27:37):
realized that on this one, callthree of us, three of us, had
just written books on theimportance of true meaningful
connection in order to be asuccessful leader. So this is
not just an American thing thatI witnessed, this really is a
global phenomenon. As far asglobal leaders, I have learned
that in some parts of the world,it is even more common for that
(28:01):
command and control. And it'staken a little bit longer in
some parts of the world, fororganizations to recognize that
that's not effective. Now, thegreat resignation was on a
global scale. And so that got alot of people's attention. But I
will say that, that in Americaand the United States right now,
(28:22):
we're definitely forging a path.
We're a bit more progressivewhen when we know and leaders
know that it is all about caringabout relationships, and so some
parts of the world might be alittle bit slower.
Joe Cadwell (28:35):
Well, we're getting close to the end of the
conversation, I'd like to holdyou to two or three tangibles
that that listeners right nowthree tangibles of what if
you're a leader, listening tothis right now, or potential
leader listening to this rightnow and you three things that
you should stop doing as aleader, and then Michelle, if
you could elaborate in threethings that they should start
doing today.
Michelle Johnston (28:57):
Number one, please allow your people to make
mistakes. So don't shame yourpeople, if they make mistakes.
Organizations need to beinnovative. That's what they
tell me all the time. We wantour people to be innovative
leaders who create cultures offear, and who make people feel
bad or punish or shame forasking what could be potentially
(29:20):
a stupid question or making amistake, you're never going to
be that innovative company. Sothe number one thing is allow
people make mistakes. And theopposite of that is Don't shame
them. The second thing that youcould do is let go of
micromanagement. And instead,empower your people. People just
want to have a voice and theywant to be seen. They want to be
(29:41):
heard. They want to be valued.
They want to do their jobs. Andthe biggest complaint that I
hear is my boss micromanages me,so don't micromanage. Instead,
empower. And the third thing isjust embed time to intentionally
connect at the keynote I wasgiven yes Your day when I had
everybody stand up and give somebest practices one one called at
(30:02):
the Power Hour is they're askingtheir people just to get out
behind their desk if you'reactually going to an office for
an hour and connect with yourpeople. Some people are using
the terminology called roundinglike they do in hospitals for
corporate life just get up andround you know manage by walking
around they call it the ourpower to in order to truly
(30:22):
meaningfully connect with yourpeople, then you're to me, Joe
connection drives results andall the research is showing that
if the chick got it and bed timefor it, and it's gotta be
intentional connection drivesresults.
Joe Cadwell (30:40):
I like it connection drives results. Well,
Michelle Johnson, this has beena fantastic conversation, where
can people go to find out moreabout you and your book and your
work?
Michelle Johnston (30:49):
Thank you, Joe, www dot Michelle with two
L's cay johnston.com. That'sMichelle cay johnston.com. And
it has all of my podcasts thatI've been on. And I just
launched my own podcast calledThe seismic shift, and the book
and just exciting things andjust contact me, I would love to
hear from you. Thank you againfor having me.
Joe Cadwell (31:11):
Man, thank you so much for taking your time to be
on the show. My guest today hasbeen Michelle Johnston, author
of the seismic shift. Find outmore about Michelle and her
work, be sure to check out theshow notes for this episode, or
visit the grit nation website atwww grit nation podcast.com. And
finally, if you enjoyed today'sepisode, please consider sharing
(31:33):
it with a friend, family memberor anyone else you think they
get something out of it. Asalways, I appreciate your
continued support. And untilnext time, this is Joe Cadwell.
Thank you, you are wanting toknow more today than you did
yesterday.
Michelle Johnston (31:48):
I have a leader yesterday who said
Michelle, I got the feedbackagain from my people that I'm
not the best listener and then Iinterrupt and I don't give a lot
of space for them to talk. Isaid so what are you going to do
about it? And he said, Well, Ihave a I have a listening jar
now and every time I'm asking myteam for help so during team
meetings, I'm bringing the jarin and and I'm putting a $5 bill
(32:11):
in anytime they catch meinterrupting and not allowing
anybody to talk
Welcome to Grit Nation. I'm Joe Cadwell, the
host of the show, and on today'sepisode, I have the pleasure of
speaking with managementprofessor, leadership expert and
author of the seismic shift inleadership. Her name is Michelle
Johnston. And on today's show,we discuss her book to learn
more about how to be a better,more connected leader in today's
world, whether it's in theboardroom or on the job site,
(00:30):
we'll open our conversation bylearning what the seismic shift
is, and why the transition froman old school style of command
and control leadership are oneof collaboration and teamwork is
beneficial to company's bottomline, and morale. Next, we'll
unpack a few of the themes fromMichelle's book that contribute
to this shift. Beginning withself connection, why being
authentic and true to your brandis so important to your role as
(00:52):
a leader. Later, we'll discussthe significance of having
values that are in alignmentwith your organization, and how
owning your calendar can be soempowering to your career. And
we'll wrap up our conversationby discussing influences and
Michelle's journey to being anexecutive coach, and why
surrounding yourself withpositive role models was so
(01:14):
crucial to building the futurethat she wanted to achieve.
After the show, be sure to checkout the show notes for more
information about MichelleJohnston and her book, a seismic
shift. And now on to the show.
Michelle Johnson, welcome toGrit Nation.
Michelle Johnston (01:38):
Thank you so much, Joe. I'm excited to be
here.
Joe Cadwell (01:40):
Michelle, I'm super excited to have you on the show
today as well. I've really beenenjoying reading your book, The
seismic shift in leadership. Ithink it's got a lot to offer
for my listener audience today.
But before we get into yourbook, Michelle, perhaps we can
learn a little bit about yourbackstory.
Michelle Johnston (01:56):
Absolutely.
Yeah. So I'm a managementprofessor at Loyola University,
New Orleans, been there for over20 years, I teach leadership and
strategic communication. And itwas in my my role as an
executive coach, I coach, Iusually have a roster of about
18 to 20 executives that Icoach. And a number of years
ago, this was right before thepandemic, I was seeing a seismic
(02:16):
shift happening in theworkplace, that the leaders who
still thought that command andcontrol and authoritarian style
of leadership was effective,they were getting pushed out of
organizations. And so that's whyI wrote the book, the seismic
shift in leadership. And as faras I understand, this is a best
seller, best seller. I'm just soso incredibly grateful. And I
(02:38):
think the reason why it's a bestseller, Joe, is that in March of
2020, I was supposed to besending it off to the publisher.
And that's when the whole worldshut down. And I realized
everybody on this planet that wecall Earth was about to be
disconnected. But I just wrote abook on connection. And that was
not gonna go well. So I askedthe publisher, if I could go
(03:01):
back and interview half of theglobal leaders, I interviewed 18
global leaders initially. Andthen I went back and interviewed
half of them to figure out howin the world we connect in a
disconnected world. And so thenI just published the book this
past spring. And I think that'swhy it went global. And it's
been a best sellers, becausewe're all trying to figure out
(03:24):
how to connect.
Joe Cadwell (03:27):
Okay, so before we get into the shift that has
seismically changed, what wasthe old style of leadership?
What was the old paradigm? Andwhy was it not working?
Michelle Johnston (03:36):
Yeah, so it was very command and control.
And it was about power, power,power, much more authoritarian.
And people were told back thenthat professionals professional,
personal is personal. You don'tmix the two. And, you know,
bring your professional self towork and kind of, you know, I
have I have a guy that I coach,great, great leader and coming
(03:58):
out of the pandemic, because Ihaven't seen my people in two
years. I said, Well, why don'the goes, I was thinking about
having them over for a cookout.
I said, Why don't you He said,Because of my former job. My
former boss told me that Icouldn't do that. Professional
was professional, personal waspersonal. And and that just is
not the case anymore,particularly coming out of the
pandemic. We've all seen eachother's dogs and babies and
(04:18):
homes and you realize that inorder to be happy, in this
world, we spend so much time atwork, we just have to figure out
how to have a life, not a worklife and a personal life. It's
how do you create and curateyour own life? And how do you
want that to look? And what Ifound the seismic shift was
referring to is that too manypeople thought that they just
(04:40):
had to put on this mask ofperfection and show up as these
very inauthentic people who youknow believe that your your
reward for coming to work wasyour paycheck. You shouldn't
like it. You shouldn't befriends with your people. It
shouldn't be a happy place and Ihonestly think that it,
everything has changed. Sincecoming out the pandemic,
(05:02):
everything we're blowing up,We're disrupting everything, how
we work, who we work with whenwe work, what meetings look
like, how they should run, I waswhere I did a did a keynote
yesterday to a hospital system.
And I said that old command andcontrol, you know, is gone. And
they stood up. And I said, Sowhat are you doing to connect
(05:23):
and leader stood up and said, Wedon't want any more of those
formal rigid meetings anymore,we're now going to do huddles,
we're going to have coffeetogether three mornings a week
for 15 minutes, rather thanthose two hours, you have to
prepare these PowerPointpresentations and show up and
try to be perfect. That's notconnection.
Joe Cadwell (05:43):
So it went from an old school sort of transactional
relationship towards leadership,top down sort of leadership. And
now what you're saying is, it'smore of a transformational
leadership where a leader willlead by example, a leader who
will make themselves vulnerable,a leader will so listen to the
people that they are workingwith.
Michelle Johnston (06:02):
Joe, you are absolutely correct. I love how
you just framed that, yes, Ilook at communication, as much
more transactional, I'm talkingabout true meaningful
connection. And what does thatlook like? What does that feel
like? What does that sound like?
And what I've learned throughoutall of this, because so many
leaders now will say, Well,Michelle, I want to know, if I'm
doing a good job connecting withmy people, we you know, our
(06:24):
company does an engagementsurvey. But how do I know if I'm
meaningfully connecting. And soI finally spent a lot of time
figuring out, if your peoplefeel that they are seen, heard,
valued and appreciated, thenyou're doing a really good job
connecting. And it's got to beso much more intentional, like
you said, you have to embedtime, so that you are a leader
(06:48):
who listens, versus a leader whomicromanage is in talks the
whole time, you have to be aleader who's more of a servant
leader, I'm here to develop you,I'm here to empower you. It's
really a shift in power. Thepeople have no employees have
never had as much power as theydo today in the workforce. And I
think it is, is definitelygotten the attention of leaders
(07:11):
like Whoa, it's not all aboutpower, they now have power. And
they actually want to findpurpose, and meaning they want
to like what they do. And if I'mgoing to be a successful leader,
I've got to make it about them.
Joe Cadwell (07:26):
So till today, as a modern leader to lead modern
workers, you have to understandthe currency in which they're
trading. And it's not alwaysabout money. It's about feeling
respect. It's about feeling likeyou're contributing to something
greater than oneself.
Michelle Johnston (07:41):
I love it. So frame things, you are absolutely
right, the currency now. And sothe great resignation could be
relabeled, the greatreprioritization for the great
re evaluation. So we did hearfrom those, you know, millions
of people who left theworkforce, that some of them did
it because they were tired ofcommutes, right, they wanted a
(08:02):
little bit control of theirschedule, they wanted more
money. But what we heard most isthat people wanted to be valued
and appreciated and aligned andfeel really good about the work
they're doing and who they'redoing it for. So a lot of people
left the workforce because theywere just fed up.
Joe Cadwell (08:20):
And the alignment is a key word. I've heard you
mentioned that on other people'spodcasts, the alignment, what
your values are, where you seeyourself within the structure of
the company, will greatlydetermine, you know, sort of
your attitude when you show upto work and your book, The
seismic shift is designed fromthe perspective of helping
leaders become better leaders.
Absolutely. Because
Michelle Johnston (08:43):
what I've realized this seismic shift in
leadership style, the leaderswho were getting pushed out Joe,
the seismic shift was that theywere trying to be somebody that
they weren't their old formerboss, their mentor and old
coach, they were kind of phoningit in like, well, this is what
leadership is supposed to looklike, I'm supposed to have all
the answers, I'm supposed tocontrol everything and everyone,
(09:06):
I'm supposed to do all thetalking, I give the directives,
right. But the seismic shiftreally is internal. If you're
going to meaningfully connectwith your people. First and
foremost, you have to beconnected with yourself. You
have to know who you are, whatyour story is, you have to
understand your strengths, yourblind spots. So much of
(09:28):
connection with yourself isabout spending time reflecting
and truly becoming aware of whoyou are and what you bring to
the table so that you can alignand find a job that brings out
your strengths and find thatfind an organization that you're
proud of that takes a lot ofeffort and time that really is
the seismic shift, it's got tostart with you.
Joe Cadwell (09:50):
So again, we'll get into the three different parts
of your book. Obviously we'regoing to start with the you
know, the shift in yourself, theconnection with your team and
then the can election with thewith the organization. So
getting back to understandingyourself understanding your
brand, your style, your level ofauthenticity you bring as a
leader that, as you said, comesa lot from within. But you've
(10:13):
also embraced a strategy calledI think it's three 360 feedback.
Michelle Johnston (10:17):
Yeah, I think that's the most powerful tool
that you have as a leader is oneof the leaders that I
interviewed for my book. Andhe's the CEO of a system that I
work for that I coach, a lot ofthe leaders, it's called Ochsner
health. And I was interviewingWarner for the book, and he
said, Michelle, so many leaderssay I want an executive coach,
(10:39):
but I don't want a 360. AndWarner said, and I asked him why
that is the best tool for selfdiscovery. And people tell me,
Oh, I don't want people to knowwhat my weaknesses are. And
Warner said, I tell them, theyall know, they know this is for
you to grow. And I tell myleaders with discomfort comes
(10:59):
growth because so many of themthe 360s hard, you don't really
want to know how other peopleperceive you. But you have to
have it usually when I conduct a360 I interview about 1510 to 15
of this leaders key stakeholdersthat they interact with. And and
so it's about a 20 pagequalitative report of how others
(11:23):
perceive you and MarshallGoldsmith, who is my mentor, and
he's the number one executivecoach in the world. Number one
global thought leader, New YorkTimes bestselling author, and I
love his quote, he said, Michel,he said, When you are in a
position of power, you are heldhostage by how other people
perceive you. And hostage is thekey word here. It's so true.
(11:43):
Your leadership depends on howother people perceive you know,
whether it's effective or not.
So the best case scenario isjust agree to say Yes, show me
the data. I want to know howother people perceive what I'm
doing well, so I can continue todo it. And what I'm not doing so
well and give me some ideas ofhow to be better.
Joe Cadwell (12:05):
And so listening, that kind of feedback really
takes a lot of confidence andcomfortability with with who you
are. And again, if you'reworking with someone like
yourself and executive coach,and you have the structure
around you to to pull that off,that is fantastic. But a lot of
the listeners to my podcast, thegrid nation podcast, or blue
collar workers, there Foreman'sor supervisors or
(12:26):
superintendents on job sites,and getting that sort of that
sort of feedback might bedifficult for them. But what
what are some techniques? Orwhat are some strategies they
can go to sort of solicitinformation, maybe not from 360,
but at least to 70? or part oftheir crew? How can they ask for
this feedback? And what shouldthey do with that fee?
Michelle Johnston (12:44):
Yeah, that's a part of the seismic shift to
so many leaders think Well, Ican ask my people for feedback,
what I'm supposed to have allthe all the answers, and again,
do all the talking. And I'mreally advocating a total shift
in how you run your meetings. Itused to be at 20, you do 80% of
the talking because you're theleader. And then at the very
end, you might say, Do you haveany questions, and then very few
(13:06):
people speak up. And I'm notadvocating to switch that you as
the leader should be thefacilitator of your meetings,
you shouldn't be asking thequestions. It should be your
people talking, giving theiropinions giving their input, you
show that you really value it'strue collaboration, you're
creating that psychologicalsafety, that trust so that you
(13:26):
can be collaborative andinnovative. And then at the very
end, the last 20% of the meetingis you, you know giving some of
the necessary directives. Yeah,I think that that leaders think,
oh, I don't want to ask becausethen that makes me feel
vulnerable. And then they mighttake advantage of me. No, they
end up respecting you more. Oneof the things that I did when I
(13:49):
was a really self consciousyoung professor, I was I was one
of the very few professors inthe business school, who was
teaching a soft skill course Iwas teaching business
communication, I was teachingleadership, strategic
communication at the MBA level,MBA level, and I was surrounded
by my colleagues who I justidolized, and they were teaching
finance, and stock trading andeconomics and accounting. And so
(14:13):
I was self conscious andthought, Okay, I need to show
them that the soft skills ofcommunication, culture and
leadership really do drivefinancial performance. So I went
and I collected data with mycolleague, Dr. Kendra Reed, and
we wanted to know that if aleader actually does what we're
talking about Joe, and whatyou're addressing, the listeners
are thinking, oh, gosh, you'rejust how in the world do I get
(14:36):
this feedback? We wanted to knowif leaders who created a
positive team listeningenvironment, positive team
listening environment, all thatmeant was you as a leader
saying, hey, here are thenumbers from last month. Here
are our customers. Here's, youknow, things that we did well,
or here's our revenue, justtransparency and metrics how we
(14:58):
did last month. I want to hearfrom you, well, what can we do
bit better? You know, what didwe not do? So well? How can we
join our brains together andfigure this out, I want to hear
from you, we will do ittogether. Leaders who actually
had those discussions, weretransparent with the data
involved their people, they mademore money. The teams that we
(15:22):
collected the data from thesewere manufacturing facilities,
these were facilities that tookcar batteries, and turn them
into plastic portable, can'tpaint cans. So this is in the
manufacturing facility, and theleaders who really did say, I'm
a facilitator, we're going tofigure this out together as a
team, those leaders made moremoney.
Joe Cadwell (15:46):
And transformational leadership,
again, it's starting with you,it's starting with the the
individual, the leader, therecognized boss of this
particular job, if you will, butyou know, connecting with your
team is hugely important. And wework, having come from an
environment as a professionalcommercial diver within the
trades, and having really had mylife and the lives of other
(16:08):
people, you know, accountable toour actions as a team was was
hugely influential on myunderstanding and development of
my own leadership style. Butknowing your team, knowing your
people is huge. What can youtell us about that? Michelle?
Michelle Johnston (16:24):
Yeah. So the first thing that I learned in
conducting all these interviewswith with these leaders all over
the world is I said, How do youmeaningfully connect with your
team? And one of the bestleaders that I interviewed who
is one of the best leaders atconnection is one Martine, and
he's the global president ofKind bars K I N. D, the snack,
(16:44):
the granola bars? I've had a fewof those. Yeah, huh. Yeah, it's
very popular. And one of themetrics that he's evaluated on
as the global president is notjust how many bars that he
sells, but it's how many acts ofkindness. And last year was 250
million acts of kindness, likethey really are trying to make
the world a kinder place. It'sjust an incredible mission of a
(17:05):
company. And so I said, One, howin the world are you connecting
with your people. And he liftedup his expresso cup, and he
says, Michelle, I'm a European,I'm from Spain. He said, I love
my Expresso. I connect with mypeople in my meetings over
coffee. And they know thatwhether it's a 30 minute
meeting, 45 minute, 15 minutemeeting, the first five or so 10
(17:29):
minutes are going to be true.
We're drinking coffee together.
And I want to know, what wasyour family? Where'd you go on
your vacation? What are yourchildren do and how's the start
of school. So what we found fromour data, Joe, is that in order
to meaningfully connect withyour team, you have to show that
you care about them as a wholeperson, not just the results
that they're bringing to thetable. And that means it's got
(17:50):
to be intentional. And so Iadvocate that you open up your
team meetings with some sort ofjust, you know, either How are
you doing? Really, which was agreat question during the
pandemic? Because if you justsaid, How are you doing? People
thought they were supposed tosay, Okay, if you as the leader
said, How are you doing comma,really, and if the leader said,
(18:10):
this is hard, and it's okay, ifyou're not okay, if the leader
gives the team permission toreally be honest and candid,
that's all we're talking abouthere. I'm not asking for these
leaders to be therapists. I'mnot asking for these leaders, to
be best friends with theirpeople, you still need to lead
and hold your people accountableand get results. I'm asking you
(18:31):
to show up and show your peoplethat you really do care about
them as a whole person on apersonal level.
Joe Cadwell (18:38):
And I think a lot of that just starts with knowing
people's names, and reallytaking the time to invest in
just names and it sounds silly,but you can work shoulder to
shoulder for people and alwaysbe Oh, yeah, that that fell over
there, that apprentice or thatjourney level worker there. And
if you don't even take the timeto know their name, that that
really begins to set that sortof the barrier up. So I
(18:58):
encourage that a lot in theclasses I teach with my first
and second term apprentices whenI start developing, planting the
seeds of leadership early on intheir career at the first and
second term apprentice level, toget to know your people's names,
get to know a little bit abouttheir hobbies, their family, you
know, you don't have to be bestbuddies with them, but just get
to know them as a person as anindividual. And it'll make your
(19:19):
connection with them that muchstronger and make your working
life that much easier. And soconnecting with your people.
Michelle Johnston (19:27):
You're You're doing a great job with your in
your apprentice program. That isexactly what I tell my people to
and whenever I do these firesidechats with my book and we have
questions and answers. There'salways a person who comes up at
the end who says, Michelle,you're not gonna believe this. I
just went through the pandemic Iended up quitting because my
(19:47):
boss never asked me in two yearsas I was quarantining at home
alone, never even asked how Iwas doing. And then I had
another person come up to me,she said, Michelle, I'm I'm a
single woman. I have a dog Mydog's name is Gypsy, I love my
dog, I don't even think my bossknows that you know anything
about me if they just showedthat they were interested, it
(20:10):
would make such a difference.
And that's what we're talkingabout. Just show your people
that you're interested and youcare about them as humans.
Joe Cadwell (20:17):
I think I heard it when I was listening, prepping
for our interview, I waslistening to to one of the
podcasts, one of the manypodcasts, you're on Michelle.
And someone said, you know,today's workers really are
volunteers. I mean, you know,equity and pay is really sort of
leveled the playing field, thepower does seem to be in the
hands of labor now. And it's notgood enough just to work for a
check. You want to work for anorganization where you feel
(20:38):
valued and respected. And havingsomething like a positive job
site culture, on site is huge,and retention, and with
retention comes at, not washingaway the bottom 20% constantly
and having to retrain and allthe resources that go into that.
So holding on to people makingthem feel valued. Keeping them
as part of an organization andsharing a vision is instrumental
(21:00):
in success in today's verycompetitive world. So we learned
about connecting with ourselves,we learned about connecting with
our team. Before we move on fromconnecting with our team, you
have a part in your book there.
It's called the leader isservant, I think is right
servant leader. What do you meanby that?
Michelle Johnston (21:16):
Yeah, it's it's, and I learned this from a
CEO of a hospital, he said, Youknow, when I became CEO, the
organizational chart was givento me and put in front of me,
and I was at the very top. Andhe said, and I realized that the
way that I was going to beeffective, and really, you know,
improve the quality of patientcare. I turn when I meet with my
(21:38):
people, I turned theorganizational chart upside
down. And I said, No, no, no,I'm at the bottom. I said, I'm
here to support you, all you allare the ones that are delivering
the patient care. So it's aservant leadership mentality
that you are at that you're notthe one necessarily holding all
the power at the top that thepeople, your employees have the
power to deliver the bestcustomer service, the best
(22:00):
patient care. And so servantleadership is is about I want to
develop you, I want to help yoube the best version of yourself,
what can I do to remove yourbarriers, and to help you
succeed, it's just a shift inorientation towards the person
and helping the person that'swhat servant leadership is
about.
Joe Cadwell (22:24):
So now, moving on to the third one of the another
chapter in your book connectingwith the organization. So if
we've connected with ourselvesand with our team, now the
organization has an alignment ofvision, what, what got you to
write a chapter just onconnecting with the
organization?
Michelle Johnston (22:38):
Yeah, so I was interviewing these leaders,
and they were talking about, youknow, when I was asking them
about their stories, some ofthem said, Well, I got to this
place where I am. Now finally,because I had to quit many other
jobs. When I realized that Iwasn't aligned with what the
company was doing. It might beunethical, it might be, you
know, working for a product thatyou didn't believe in working, I
(23:03):
had one hospital leader who wasthe CEO of a nonprofit. And he
said, If he had been the CEO ofa for profit, and finally had to
leave, he was up in an airplaneon 911. And literally, he said,
the pilot came on and said,we've got a, I've got to fly
this plane, like a jet airplane,we've got to land immediately,
it seems that the work unit issomething he could he didn't go
(23:24):
into the details that we wereunder attack. But he said they
landed like a like a fighterjet. And as soon as I landed, I
was supposed to go and fire1000s of people. And I just
couldn't do that anymore. I'mnot that person, I couldn't be
that person. And I quit. And Ifinally found a better role for
me that was aligned with myvalues. So I heard a lot of
(23:46):
stories of, of trying to findthe right fit with with culture
and with company and withpurpose. And then once you are
in that organization, and youfeel that it's a right fit, one
of the things that you need todo to do to connect with the
organization is own yourcalendar. And that was another
big surprise, I did not thinkthat I was going to be writing a
(24:07):
chapter on owning your calendar,and Warner, Thomas, again, the
CEO of Ochsner. He said,Michelle, that is how you
connect with all of yourstakeholders is trying to figure
out who are the important peoplethat I need to communicate with
on a daily basis on a weeklybasis on a monthly basis
quarterly annually, you've gotto really think about that. And
(24:29):
you have to develop a rhythm sothat you are interacting with
the people who are going to helpyou be successful. And what does
that look like? And that's whatI was talking to you earlier,
when I was delivering the speechyesterday and I was having
everybody stand up the leadersaying what are you doing
differently now? We've got todisrupt the way that we're
working in order to connect andthey said yeah, I'm now doing
(24:52):
the 15 Minute huddles in themorning. So connection with the
organization has to do withknowing your values, making sure
that your values are aligned andYou can sleep at night working
for this company, that it's agood fit. And figuring out that
that meeting rhythm, thatoperating rhythm, that
communication rhythm so thatyou're meeting with the right
people so that you can besuccessful.
Joe Cadwell (25:14):
Speaking of success, who helped you on your
journey to be successful?
Michelle?
Michelle Johnston (25:19):
You know, I'm so blessed. In 2001. I read this
article in The New Yorkermagazine chronicling Marshall
Goldsmith, he was a leadershipcoach, I don't even know if the
word executive coach had beeninvented yet. Maybe it was
invented with this particulararticle, but it chronoa
chronicled martial going aroundand at the time, he was coaching
top level executives, and a lotof them were jerk bosses. And I
(25:43):
just remember reading thisarticle and relating so I was I
saw so many jerk bosses. And Iremember thinking in 2001, that
when I lifted my head up frompublishing, publishing,
publishing, and I had a littlebit more autonomy and freedom to
help executives that I wanted tobe an executive coach like
Marshall Goldsmith, so I torethat article out of the New
(26:04):
Yorker, and I put it in myfiling cabinet, it's still up at
Loyola to this day. So in anycase, Marshall Goldsmith, in the
back of my head was I like thisguy, I want to be like this guy,
fast forward years. And he wasabout to turn 70, on stage at
this big leadership event that Iwas there with a bunch of
leaders that I was coaching, hehad just written his book called
(26:24):
triggers. And he said, I've madeall the money I need to make, I
don't need another feather in myhat. What I want to do now is
give back, so if you want to bementored by me, send me an
email, and I sent him an email.
And he became my officialmentor. And in working together,
he invited me to be a part ofthis esteemed group that I'm so
grateful to be a part of. It'scalled 100 coaches of the top
(26:46):
global coaches in the world. Andwe get to meet on Mondays and
really discuss how we can besthelp leaders with the issues
facing them today. And it's justa fantastic experience. I feel
very blessed.
Joe Cadwell (27:01):
I'd have to say, so I've heard you mentioned it a
few times. Michelle, you talkabout global leaders, and I'm
just wondering contextually howto global leaders, people in
Europe, people in Asia, how didtheir management styles
different from those in the US?
Michelle Johnston (27:14):
Yeah, I was really worried, to be honest
with you, when I started hoppingon these global calls with
people from India and Russia,and France, and Canada, and
England and me. And wondering,and I just sent my book off to
the publisher wondering, is thisjust a American thing that I'm
seeing with connection? Is thisgoing to be applicable. And I
(27:37):
realized that on this one, callthree of us, three of us, had
just written books on theimportance of true meaningful
connection in order to be asuccessful leader. So this is
not just an American thing thatI witnessed, this really is a
global phenomenon. As far asglobal leaders, I have learned
that in some parts of the world,it is even more common for that
(28:01):
command and control. And it'staken a little bit longer in
some parts of the world, fororganizations to recognize that
that's not effective. Now, thegreat resignation was on a
global scale. And so that got alot of people's attention. But I
will say that, that in Americaand the United States right now,
(28:22):
we're definitely forging a path.
We're a bit more progressivewhen when we know and leaders
know that it is all about caringabout relationships, and so some
parts of the world might be alittle bit slower.
Joe Cadwell (28:35):
Well, we're getting close to the end of the
conversation, I'd like to holdyou to two or three tangibles
that that listeners right nowthree tangibles of what if
you're a leader, listening tothis right now, or potential
leader listening to this rightnow and you three things that
you should stop doing as aleader, and then Michelle, if
you could elaborate in threethings that they should start
doing today.
Michelle Johnston (28:57):
Number one, please allow your people to make
mistakes. So don't shame yourpeople, if they make mistakes.
Organizations need to beinnovative. That's what they
tell me all the time. We wantour people to be innovative
leaders who create cultures offear, and who make people feel
bad or punish or shame forasking what could be potentially
(29:20):
a stupid question or making amistake, you're never going to
be that innovative company. Sothe number one thing is allow
people make mistakes. And theopposite of that is Don't shame
them. The second thing that youcould do is let go of
micromanagement. And instead,empower your people. People just
want to have a voice and theywant to be seen. They want to be
(29:41):
heard. They want to be valued.
They want to do their jobs. Andthe biggest complaint that I
hear is my boss micromanages me,so don't micromanage. Instead,
empower. And the third thing isjust embed time to intentionally
connect at the keynote I wasgiven yes Your day when I had
everybody stand up and give somebest practices one one called at
(30:02):
the Power Hour is they're askingtheir people just to get out
behind their desk if you'reactually going to an office for
an hour and connect with yourpeople. Some people are using
the terminology called roundinglike they do in hospitals for
corporate life just get up andround you know manage by walking
around they call it the ourpower to in order to truly
(30:22):
meaningfully connect with yourpeople, then you're to me, Joe
connection drives results andall the research is showing that
if the chick got it and bed timefor it, and it's gotta be
intentional connection drivesresults.
Joe Cadwell (30:40):
I like it connection drives results. Well,
Michelle Johnson, this has beena fantastic conversation, where
can people go to find out moreabout you and your book and your
work?
Michelle Johnston (30:49):
Thank you, Joe, www dot Michelle with two
L's cay johnston.com. That'sMichelle cay johnston.com. And
it has all of my podcasts thatI've been on. And I just
launched my own podcast calledThe seismic shift, and the book
and just exciting things andjust contact me, I would love to
hear from you. Thank you againfor having me.
Joe Cadwell (31:11):
Man, thank you so much for taking your time to be
on the show. My guest today hasbeen Michelle Johnston, author
of the seismic shift. Find outmore about Michelle and her
work, be sure to check out theshow notes for this episode, or
visit the grit nation website atwww grit nation podcast.com. And
finally, if you enjoyed today'sepisode, please consider sharing
(31:33):
it with a friend, family memberor anyone else you think they
get something out of it. Asalways, I appreciate your
continued support. And untilnext time, this is Joe Cadwell.
Thank you, you are wanting toknow more today than you did
yesterday.
Michelle Johnston (31:48):
I have a leader yesterday who said
Michelle, I got the feedbackagain from my people that I'm
not the best listener and then Iinterrupt and I don't give a lot
of space for them to talk. Isaid so what are you going to do
about it? And he said, Well, Ihave a I have a listening jar
now and every time I'm asking myteam for help so during team
meetings, I'm bringing the jarin and and I'm putting a $5 bill
(32:11):
in anytime they catch meinterrupting and not allowing
anybody to talk
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