October 11, 2022 • 33 mins
On today’s episode I have the pleasure of talking with internationally acclaimed speaker and bestselling author, D.J. Vanas.
D.J.’s latest work titled, The Warrior Within - Own Your Power to Serve, Fight, Protect and Heal, draws upon Native American philosophy and tradition to reveal insight on how to develop the resilience and toughness needed to face the overwhelming chaos and noise in today’s modern world.
We’ll start our conversation as D.J. explains what the warrior spirit is, and why it is important for everyone to nurture, especially those who want to lead and serve, with a higher purpose than themselves.
Next, we’ll understand what it means to go on a vision quest and why it is so important to take time daily to let the “dirt settle in your mud puddle”.
Later, we’ll unpack the strategy of relentlessly attacking a seemingly impossible challenge and how not to let fear of failure get in your way when doing so.
And we’ll end our conversation as D.J. explains the significant difference between Native American cultures regard for their elders and our own, and why humor is such an effective weapon when dealing with hardship, adversity, or setbacks.
The Show Notes
D.J. Vanas
https://nativediscovery.com/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe Cadwell (00:00):
DJ Vanness Welcome to Grit Nation.
D.J. Vanas (00:02):
Thank you for having me, Joe. Happy to be here.
Joe Cadwell (00:04):
Yeah, thank you so much, DJ for taking your time to
be on my show today, I'm reallyexcited to talk to you about
your, your new book and the workyou've been doing. But the new
book The Warrior Within Own YourPower to serve, fight, protect
and heal is a great read, I'vereally been enjoying my time in
your book. And before we getinto that DJ, maybe you can tell
the listener audience a littlebit more about who you are,
(00:26):
where you came from, and why youdecided to write a book about
the Warrior Within?
D.J. Vanas (00:31):
Sure. Well, my name is DJ Vanas. So I'm originally
from Muskegon, Michigan. I'm anenrolled member of the auto a
tribe. I'm a former militaryofficer, I was an Air Force, and
in uniform for 14 years. And Istarted doing this work over 25
years ago. And it was showingpeople how to use our
(00:51):
traditional warrior principlesfrom Native American communities
in what we do in service toothers. So how to stay strong,
how to stay resilient, how tocontinue serving at our best,
regardless of the circumstancesthat we're in. And so that's
what led me to this book, thisis my third book, this the book
that just came out the WarriorWithin. And it's a distillation
(01:14):
of all those principles laid outin 10 chapters, you know how to
stay strong, resilient, focusedin a chaotic world, and
continuing to deliver our best,regardless of what's happening.
Joe Cadwell (01:23):
And you're relying a lot on Native American
traditions. And I understandhaving read a little bit about
your backstory, and that DJ thatyou've worked with over 500
tribes across North America, andyou're like you say, from the
Ottawa tribe, originally, andyou join the service, but you
came from a service orientedfamily, didn't you?
D.J. Vanas (01:44):
I did, my mom was a career nurse, my dad was career
military. So I grew up withservice providers who I saw that
model of, you know, give 100% ofwho you are every day, and
sometimes I saw them doing it attheir own expense. And so
that's, I think one of thethings that led me to do this
type of work is trying to, I'vealways looked at my work as
providing for the providers, youknow, to strengthen the people
(02:06):
who are out there servingothers, because I grew up with
that mentality of give it allaway, and then you leave nothing
in reserve for yourself. And atthat point, you know, you kind
of lead yourself closer andcloser to burnout.
Joe Cadwell (02:18):
And that's what happened to you didn't it at a
certain point in your militarycareer, you were kind of on the
precipice of staying in themilitary, making it a career or
venturing out on your own, andit sounded like you were burning
the candle at both ends. And itreally started to manifest
itself physically.
D.J. Vanas (02:35):
It did. And so, and sometimes the best lessons you
learn or the most painful, thoseare the ones that stick with
you. And at that point, I was inthe military, I had a full team
of people I was in charge of.
And we had just started a familyand I just started a business
and I was burning the candle onboth ends and in the middle. And
it's unsustainable when you dothat, when you're not taking
(02:56):
care of yourself in the process.
And I wasn't I kept saying, I'llget to it later, when it's not
so crazy when it's not so busy,which is the you know, the the
mantra a lot of us use, thatgets us into hot water pretty
quickly, and later showed up andit showed up in the form of the
shingles, which is awful. Iwouldn't wish that on my worst
enemy. And it's the resurgenceof chickenpox later in life
brought on by stress, unmanagedstress. And so I am a born
(03:22):
again, passionate advocate forself care, you know, we want to
be strong and brave, not justtoday, or in this this week, we
want to do this for the longterm. We want to do this
sustainably. And we can't dothat over, you know, if we're
burning the candle on both ends,I say that in my book, very
adamantly, you cannot be awarrior, somebody who's in a
(03:42):
position to serve, you cannot bea warrior. If you're falling
apart. It just doesn't work.
Joe Cadwell (03:47):
And so the business that you started while you were
in the military was you weresort of a liaison for the Native
American tribes for the AirForce, is that correct? I was
D.J. Vanas (03:56):
I was recruited for the Air Force Academy. That was
my alma mater, proud graduate ofthe Air Force Academy. And I was
I wanted to help them increasediversity. You know, that was
one of the things that I went upand talk to them about is, you
know, federally fundedinstitution, 4400 people, we
only had a handful of us therewho were native. And I wanted to
help change that. And so theyput me out on the road work me
(04:18):
like a dog and I loved it. Iwent here, there and everywhere,
sharing the good word about theAir Force Academy about the the
route to Officer ship in the AirForce. And I found that I
absolutely loved it. I lovegoing out and speaking to groups
about, you know, not only whatwe had to offer, but the power
of education, the power ofhealthy choices, surround
yourself with the right people,and it kind of grew into a life
(04:40):
of its own. And that's why I gotto the point where I was like,
you know, it started to emerge.
And I had two full time jobs ata point I had to make a
decision.
Joe Cadwell (04:48):
And so you made that decision and you created
your own business and thatbusiness. Who did you sell your
business to? Or who did you workwith in your own business?
D.J. Vanas (04:56):
Well, I started my business with a Kinkos business
card and a sky page. You're, oh,that's how I started my
business. So bloom where you'replanted, you know, start
wherever you are, and then grow.
And my business is nativediscovery, Inc. And it's one of
those, you know, when you firststart off, you know, I had a
passionate vision. And I hadzero experience in that, you
(05:17):
know, feel. But I will tell you,I think it's infinitely more
important to know what you wantto do that how you're going to
do it, you'll figure out the howyou're going to do it in time.
But knowing what you want to do,that's one of the most important
questions we ever ask ourselves.
And it's scary, and it's big.
And there's no fear involved.
(05:37):
Because, you know, we think,Well, what if it doesn't happen?
You know, what, if it doesn'twork out, but spend the other
you know, spend more time on theother side of the fence? What if
it does work out in a, in a, ina way that's so much bigger than
you ever could have imagined?
Joe Cadwell (05:49):
For sure. And I'm picking you know, just hearing
you talk right now, DJ, I'mpicking out a few key words that
I noticed in the book vision,fear, time. And I think we you
know, we should invest a littlebit of time right now in getting
into your book, The WarriorWithin and in today's modern
context, how do we well, let'sgo back before today's modern
(06:09):
context, how how would theNative American people define
who warriors war
D.J. Vanas (06:14):
warriors were defined, you know, not that
Hollywood stereotypical image wesee all too often in movies and
TV. When we say warrior in ourtribal communities, it's a
different connotation, my mypeople we call a warrior
Ogeechee die. And that term hasto do with a person who has
committed their life todeveloping their Creator given
talents and abilities to be anasset or a benefit to the tribe
(06:35):
that they served. It was aboutleadership, by example, it was
about fighting for somethingbigger than their own personal
welfare. And at the heart ofthat role, it was somebody who
dedicated their lives tocontribution and service. So it
wasn't for personal glory. Youknow, let's, let's be honest,
most of what we do, we never getcredit for anyway. Right? Right.
But we do it if it's the rightthing for the right reasons. And
(06:56):
so it was somebody who is who isselfless, but also took care of
themselves, because they had totheir responsibility levels were
high. But at the end of the day,their role was defeated, protect
their people, not to feed themprotect their ego. So they're
very clear about their role.
Joe Cadwell (07:12):
And that kind of goes counter intuitive or
counter culture to whatHollywood wants us to believe
the rogue agent, the RogueWarrior alone by themselves
overcoming the odds and andthat, you know, seems to be
overhyped, over romanticizednotion of what a warrior is. And
you're saying that the NativeAmerican people, through the
centuries and millennia havedeveloped a warrior that is a
(07:33):
servant to the people who serveuntil the greater good,
D.J. Vanas (07:36):
yes, and it's accessible to anybody a day that
transcends race or age or genderor stage of life. It's it's a
beautiful path of contributionavailable for anybody willing to
walk it. And it's not aboutbeing in that lone wolf, it's
not about standing on amountaintop channeling
lightning, and you're beyondfear and pain and don't need
anybody or outside support, allyou need is the next for the
(07:58):
challenge. That's a bunch ofgarbage. You know, I say in the
book to our warriors neverfought alone. Why? Because
that's dumb. You're only goingto ever achieve a certain amount
in your life, when you're outthere winging it on your own,
you know, fighting the battles,you know, solo, I was taught
that we're a lot more like beesand ants than we are like
eagles, we need each other,we're better when we're with
(08:19):
each other, or with the rightpeople, let me be clear. But
we're built that way. You know,we're social creatures by
design, and we draw power fromeach other and can contribute
power to each other. And thenthe whole tribe is strengthened.
Joe Cadwell (08:32):
So how do we apply that in modern contexts? Because
we're all so busy now. We're alljust sort of, you know, running
100 miles an hour? And, again,how can we apply some of the
principles of ancient wisdom totoday's modern context?
D.J. Vanas (08:47):
Yeah, a big part of it. Great question. Because that
is the world we live in speed oflife is the speed of light, you
know, we're all running aroundwith their hair on fire, at
times, not even asking thequestion, Am I going in the
right direction anymore? So abig part of you know, getting
that right is, you know, one ofthe chapters I cover in the book
is about knowing your vision,you know, what's important to
you? What kind of life what kindof career are you trying to
(09:07):
build. And then, you know, onceyou identify what that looks
like, start surrounding yourselfwith the right tribe, you know,
create your own tribe, thepeople that are in your circle,
that are supportive, that areencouraging, that will hold you
accountable. You know, our beststuff comes out when we're in a
good environment. You know, whenwe're out there winging it or
doing it alone, you know, it'seasy to back off on our goals.
(09:30):
It's easy to you know, themoment something goes wrong,
that fear kicks in, and it'seasy to step away. But when
you're surrounded with otherpeople, other warriors, you
know, we become brave in thatmoment, and we're going to need
that we live in a tough world,you know, so we shouldn't if
we're doing it alone, we'redoing it wrong. We're violating
the laws of nature. I'll put itthat strongly. Because that's
what nature teaches us. We'rebuilt to be it you know, we're
(09:53):
social creatures by design.
Joe Cadwell (09:54):
So more like bees and ants and that low, flying
high above Okay,
D.J. Vanas (09:59):
that's one of Best stuff comes out.
Joe Cadwell (10:01):
You had mentioned vision and I know reading
through your book you youexperienced a vision quest or
numerous vision quest, didn'tyou over the course of your life
and, and I love the phrase thatduring these vision quests that
allows the dirt in your mudpuddle to settle, and you can
find clarity. In those moments,can you describe your personal
vision quest, and this reallyfalls along Native American
(10:22):
traditions. And then again,maybe a more modern context of
how people can go on their ownmini vision quest, perhaps?
D.J. Vanas (10:29):
Sure, yeah, I did four years of vision quest. And
Vision Quest is, you know, inmany tribes do it in different
capacities. But it's all donefor the same reason is to get
clarity in your life, to prayerfor direction, pray for
guidance, and your you know, toilluminate your path in life.
And, you know, they call it ahumble EIGRP, which is to cry
for a vision. And you don't knowwhy they call it that until you
(10:52):
go out, go out on your own. Sofour days, four nights, no food,
no water, no shelter. And it'sthe ultimate exercise. And like
you said, you know, putting thebook letting the dirt settle in
your mud puddle. You know,there's no, you're not fighting
traffic, you don't have media,you don't have other people
talking to you, you get ultimateclarity in a way that's so
profound. It's defined where Iam, even to this moment. And you
(11:16):
don't have to go through atraditional vision quest to get
clarity in your life, you can dothat for the first 10 minutes,
15 minutes or every day. And Ido that, that's how I start my
day. Because just letting thatdirt settle. Think about the
most important things that needto get done that day, what kind
of person I want to be in thatday. You know, having the
strength to handle whatever maybe thrown my way, because we
(11:38):
never know what that looks like.
And you start your day with aplace of clarity. And when we do
that we're so much moreeffective than what we do. We're
not running in chaos, we'reoperating from clarity is a gift
we give to ourselves.
Joe Cadwell (11:50):
So even before the your feet touch the floor, you
can begin your morning withclarity before you reach over,
grab the phone, start checkingemails playing Wordle, you know,
whatever it is for the morningarts, yeah, that's where the
chaos starts. And so you'resaying take a mini vision quest
and just really set the tone,the clarity of how you want to
proceed for the day and startfrom that point. That's, that's
(12:12):
fantastic. I do want to I just Ijust find it so interesting, you
are alone for four days in anarea the size of like a blanket,
you say you have a blanket, youhave your prayer pipe, you have
wear shorts, I imagine or a tshirt or shorts, just short,
just shorts. And in the book,you describe just incredible,
you know, heat and cold andweather, bugs, thirst, there's
(12:37):
no food and you stay in onearea, it's not like you're
wandering an area you'replanted. And that during that
that period of vision quest youare, you're hoping for that
vision to come to you that thatclarity,
D.J. Vanas (12:50):
you stick your spiritual flag in the ground,
and you you stay. And it's oneof those best exercises to I
mean, I learned a lot of goingthrough, you know, sitting with
the pain sitting with thesuffering. And everything in
your body is screaming, leave,go find water, get, you know,
leave this place. And that'swhere you have to lean into it
(13:12):
to really get to the other side.
And when you get to the otherside of the experience, that's
where transformation growthhappens. You know, people always
wonder, why are these ceremonyso hard? The reason why is
because we're exchanging onething for something else, we're
exchanging physical comfort andfamiliarity for transformation,
growth and wisdom. And itdoesn't come easy. But man,
those are the lessons like Isaid, I carry with me to this
(13:32):
day until the moment I draw mylast breath. I mean, there were
profound experiences, and justpracticing that of, of, you
know, not running away from thethings that, you know, scare us,
but standing there in thatemotion. And getting through to
the other side is a greatpractice, because we're going to
need that, you know, it's notthe question of if something
scary happens, but when it does,how are we going to respond?
Joe Cadwell (13:56):
Right, and that's that the tempering of steel, you
know, you have to just hammer onthat steel to create that
temperance and, and strength.
D.J. Vanas (14:05):
Yeah, there's a great quote, and I'm terrible
with quotes Joe. But I rememberthis one, it's seared into my
mind is Mildred wit stoven. Idon't know what else she ever
quoted. But I love this one. Shesaid a clay pot sitting in the
sun will always be a clay pot,it has to go through the white
heat of the furnace to becomeporcelain. And so when people go
through those tough experiencesin life, just remember, embrace
(14:26):
all of it. I know it's painful,I know it hurts. But when you
come back through the otherside, you are going to be a
better version of yourself thanyou ever could have been without
that experience. So that's oneof the things that I've learned
in life. And I encourage peoplegoing through hard times, just
stay the course keep putting onefoot in front of the other. And
you're going to see what youreally have inside of you that
(14:48):
warrior spirit will emerge inthose moments.
Joe Cadwell (14:51):
And you talk about in the book, facing your fears
in a Native American tradition.
It sounds like the plains tribeswould use something called
Counting coup, which I'm alittle bit confused about, I
hope he can straight me out ofhis DJ. But I understand that
counting coup is coming face toface with your enemy, and
showing them that you are notafraid of them, that you are not
(15:11):
going to back down from them.
And you actually just reach overto tap them with a coup stick,
which which I can understand,you know, as opposed to laying
waste hitting them with a clubor, you know, spear or something
like that. Western Plains, youtouch them with a stick and you
show you know, I, I recognize,you know, my fear, the question
(15:33):
I have, and this is what keepsthe enemy from just laughing
your head off when that countingcoup happened, I was confused by
that.
D.J. Vanas (15:40):
Nothing keeps the enemy from doing that. That's
why it's so brave. That's whyit's all about expression of
bravery and courage. That's whycounting coup is such a higher
honor than actually striking anenemy down because of what it
required. It required guts, youknow, at a core level, to be
able to stand there, you know,face to face with your fear your
opponent, the one who isthreatening you and say, I'm not
(16:02):
afraid of you, I'm so not afraidof you, I'm not going to strike
you down. And the point I'vetried to make in the, in the
book with, you know, sharingthat tradition is because life
is filled with those moments offear that we're going to face.
And when we face them head on,we can get through those
challenges. We can't do that ifwe're trying to run away,
(16:23):
diminish, shove it in a corner,ignore it, when we face it are
so much better. And we build ourcourage reservoir. You know,
when we show those moments ofbravery, we can Storm Away for
the future, you know, and whenwe acknowledge those moments of,
you know, courage and bravery,we can save it up for the next
time we encounter a scary momentand look down at that reservoir
(16:44):
and say, you know, I've beenhere before, I've been through
this, I know what this lookslike, I know what this feels
like. And I've done this before,I've got this, you know when we
can, and when we store thosecourage moments away, because a
lot of times we go through hardtimes, and we just get through
it. And we go Oh, thank godthat's over. I encourage people
to look back at those momentsand the last two years, how many
(17:04):
times have we had to face fear?
You know, and when are thosemoments of courage that you've
shown? You know, and when youreflect on that, you get to
operate from a place of not justfaith, which is important, but
also evidence. It's evidencebased, you know, so when you run
into that scary moment, you canlook in there and go, I've been
here before I got this, and I'mproving it to myself,
Joe Cadwell (17:28):
right. And having, having had my fair share of in
the occupation that I pursued.
As a lot of listeners know, Iwas a commercial diver for over
25 years, having been trained inthe military and, and having had
plenty of, you know, puckermoments along the way. Yeah,
yeah, you learn from those wholearn how to handle that stress
and push past it. And so Soaddressing your fears head on, I
(17:52):
also picked up out of your book,you know, the, the seasonality
of approaching task, and thefact that, you know, there were
in Native American cultures,there were, there were times for
war, and there was times forfarming or for hunting and those
type of things. And when weattack a problem that is seems
(18:13):
daunting, and maybe we arefearful, it's better to just
sort of pace ourselves and gointo it full bore, but also
realize that we need somerecovery time. And I was hoping
you could talk a little moreabout that.
D.J. Vanas (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Great question. And that's, it'sone of the things that, you
know, a human being can eat anentire buffalo, by themselves,
just not at once. You know, biteby bite, you can consume the
whole thing. And it's the samething with challenges going
through scary moments, is youdon't have to do it all today.
You know, it's like that. That'swhat that chapter was all about
as attack and attack. Again, berelentless in that pursuit. But
(18:49):
also take breaks. have momentswhere you can, you know,
regroup, regather, recharge,reboot yourself, so that you can
get back into the fight and andbe effective in what you do. You
know, it's the same idea withboxers between rounds in a
fight. Why do they take breaksso that they can recharge and
get back into the fight andoperate at a high level, you
(19:11):
can't do that if you just strung12 rounds together in one big
fight. You know, it's just amoment of you're going to
degrade over time. So we need tobe able to do that for
ourselves, especially whendealing with big projects,
something that's scary,something that's going to take a
while, you know, we got to paceourselves, it doesn't mean that
we stop the attack, or there'stimes where you can pause and
(19:32):
regroup and then get back intoit.
Joe Cadwell (19:36):
And also I saw something there's a difference
between quitting. In your bookyou outline the difference
between someone who just quitsand someone that surrenders
surrenders, yes. And can youdefine for us the difference
between quitting and differencebetween surrendering?
D.J. Vanas (19:51):
Yes, absolutely. And and it's an important
distinction to make, you know,our warriors. Traditionally in
our in our native communities,they fought against incredible
So they were outmatched, numberswise, technology wise, you know,
lied to and deceived at everyturn. I mean, it was just every
odd was stacked against them,and they still found a way to
keep going and keep going. Andour great Native leaders, you
(20:13):
know, may have surrendered inthe end, but they never quit.
You know, warrior spirit wasalways paramount for these
leaders. Now what surrender is,is when you realize that what
you're doing is no longerworking, it's not getting any
results anymore. And actually,you know, what we're continuing
to do, sometimes is doing moreharm than good. And when we
(20:34):
realize that, that we are at theend of our power, surrendering
is okay. And surrendering,actually is based on, you know,
it's a courageous act in thatmoment. So that's different
quitting is when things gettough, things get uncomfortable,
we just walk away and say, Idon't want to do this anymore.
There's so there's a differencebetween surrendering and
quitting surrendering is not,you know, there's nothing
(20:56):
shameful about that. Sometimeswe have to surrender to say
things like, I need help, youknow, I what I'm doing is not
working, I need outsideassistance, you know, that
people struggle in life,sometimes we need to go out of
our way to find somebody who canhelp us in that moment. And
that's there's nothing wrongwith that, that's an ultimate
act of bravery sometimes, is tofinally admit, I need some help
(21:18):
here,
Joe Cadwell (21:19):
who's reaching out for help. And that will lead me
that seems like a perfect seguenow to talk about staying a
warrior, but being realisticabout, you know, your
progression through life. And asyou begin to get older, maybe
you're not as inclined to pickup the war club about to battle,
but you can also still havevalue within modern day society,
(21:40):
I think undervalues our seniorpopulation. But in Native
American cultures, it seems likeyou truly did value and cherish
the wisdom that was achievedfrom these elders. And I was
hoping you could talk aboutmaybe transitioning, and how do
you know when to transition?
D.J. Vanas (21:55):
First of all, you know, again, going back to the
original definition, you know,of somebody who commits to using
their Creator, given talentmobility over a lifetime, to
contribute to their tribe, and,and, and to serve them. So that
can change and transition theway that we contribute the way
that we serve. So it might notbe the physical way, you know,
as in our younger years, but itdoesn't mean that a warrior
(22:19):
can't still be a contributor.
And that's where that elder rolecomes in, where they're not out
there leading the charges, butthey're, they're sharing wisdom,
they're sharing guidance arestrengthening people, you know,
at a character level, which iscritically important and
building a strong group ofpeople. So we're just doing it
in a different way, we'reshifting gears is all it comes
down to, and, and out of thebillion reasons why I'm proud to
(22:40):
be Native American, you know,one of them is the fact that we
we don't just, you know, acceptour elders, we honor them. They
are treasures for our people.
They are the corporate knowledgeof who we are, I mean, they have
gathered wisdom and stories andexperiences, life lessons, and
they hand all that down, youknow, to benefit and empower the
(23:01):
people that are coming up behindthem. So the elder role was not
about getting to a certain age,and you punch your card, now
you're officially an elder, theelder role was a path that was,
you know, people would putthemselves on with purpose on
purpose. And it was to gather asmuch good stuff as they possibly
could, and share it with as manypeople as they possibly could.
(23:21):
That was the whole role to makeother people better, you know,
getting, you know, being anelder getting older is
automatic, you know, gettingbetter is by design. And that's
what our elders were all alwaysabout. They were in continual
growth. And they lead byexample, in that regard.
Joe Cadwell (23:37):
And some of the examples, you talk about values
quite a bit in your, in yourbook as well. And some of the
the inherent value values, theancient wisdom, even going back
to stoicism, and you know, othercultures that date back
millennia. stoics had courage,wisdom, temperance, and justice
as sort of their core values.
And I noticed a lot of thosethemes were were also depicted
(23:59):
in your book, The WarriorWithin. And I thought that was
really interesting that, youknow, the ancient Greeks and
the, and the Native Americansshared a lot of these similar,
long lasting values. Yeah,
D.J. Vanas (24:13):
yeah. Well, truth is truth. You know, when you melt
everything down to its coreessence, you start coming back
to some common themes. And thesecommon themes are what people
have learned the hard way, onwhat really has meaning, what
really keeps people together,what allows people to endure the
unendurable. And when you goback to these evergreen values,
I mean, this is the buildingblocks of creating a structure,
(24:35):
in a society in a community thatallows them to endure, you know,
and so a lot of these do comeback as common themes. You know,
we have the seven grandfatherteachings for my tribe, which,
you know, honesty, courage, allthese things that you know, when
we go back to over and overagain, the same things come out
because that's what I said inthe book is it shows again, that
(24:57):
things built on values haveattended See to last. And we can
do that individually, we can dothat as a group as a team, but
know what those values are, itgives us an anchor point and
stormy seas, you know, becausewhen all hell's breaking loose,
and there's chaos all around us,if we know what our values are,
we are we are standing on apatch of solid ground, we're
going to be okay. Because inthat moment, we know what to say
(25:18):
yes to. And we know what to sayno to gives us clarity. In a
world of chaos.
Joe Cadwell (25:23):
It sounds like it's all just comes full circle,
everything we're talking aboutbuilds on each other the vision,
the values, the relying on otherpeople within your tribe,
relying on wisdom of elders. Oneof the components in your book
that I noticed, and I justloved, was it was full of humor,
DJ, and you had some really,really humorous parts in there.
(25:43):
And I know humor is also I don'tknow if we can call it a value,
but it is incredibly powerful instressful moments, and as an
overall philosophy not to takethings too seriously. And I
think your book exemplifiesthat. And how does humor play
out in Native American cultures,
D.J. Vanas (26:01):
I'm glad you brought this up. You know, our elders
always have said the same thing.
Laughter is the best medicine.
You know, humor is the thingthat allows us to stay flexible,
and, and get through the storms.
I mean, humor is what else, youknow, allowed our people to
survive all the things thatwe've been through over the last
several centuries, you know,displacement, and warfare and
(26:23):
disease and all the things, youknow, we have been able to
endure that. And one of the, youknow, secret sauce elements of
that is our humor. You know, Imean, tribal communities, they,
they understand that this istruly medicine. And it elevates
us at a time where we're down inthe dumps, it makes us
healthier. I mean, science isproving all these things now. So
(26:45):
it's not just a cool bumpersticker, or a t shirt, laughter
is the best medicine, science iscatching up to our elders. And
they've proven it, you know,they're showing how, you know,
laughter and humor, releasechemicals in our bloodstream
that allow us to learn faster,we get along with other people
better, it boosts or immunities,which is great anymore, what
sense flu seasons year round,and it lowers our stress
(27:07):
hormones. And the best partabout the whole thing is, it's
free. You know, and that's whyI'm such a fan of traditional
wisdom. You know, it's like,these are the fundamentals and
the basics, that have notchanged through the millennia.
And thankfully, you know,they're still there for us,
because in a world of chaos, andconfusion, and information
overload as normal, we stillhave these, you know, classic
touchstone, things that havebeen proven in the worst of
(27:30):
times to still be effective. AndI'd argue they're needed now
more than ever.
Joe Cadwell (27:36):
I agree, as well.
So somebody was just readingyour book now, what do you hope
that they would get out of your,
D.J. Vanas (27:43):
I hope that they come away after they read the
book with a renewed sense ofconfidence in who they are, and
what they can do, that they havesome clarity and their purpose,
their path, that they understandthat we all struggle at times,
we all deal with fear, but, butalso getting strategies on how
to create strength in their ownlife and do do this sustainably.
(28:05):
Because like I said, the wholegoal is not to be brave. In the
moment, it's to be brave for thelong haul. Because I am
convinced, you know, thatwarrior role that's based on
service, you know, that's ourhighest calling, if we're not
put here to serve, why are wehere at all. And so the book was
written to help people do thatsustainably do it at a stronger
(28:25):
and higher level, and toactually get joy back in and the
way that they serve otherpeople. Because like I said, I
think that's why we're here.
Joe Cadwell (28:35):
Now, that's a fantastic message. And I know
you've taken this message tothis as your third book, I
believe you said, you also workas a public speaker, and what
message when you when you'rebrought in to speak? Are you
asked to speak on a certaintheme? Or do you talk about the
Warrior Within, you know,underlying philosophy and
corporate culture? How does thatwork?
D.J. Vanas (28:54):
Yeah, I'm, you know, my niche is by met my message,
not by industry. And so thismessage, you know, is
transportable across thespectrum. And so I always come
back to, you know, sharing theseprinciples, and again, being
adamant that these principlesare accessible to anyone, you
know, they're, they're notexclusive. They don't, it
(29:16):
doesn't matter what yourbackground or your age or your
gender is. These are principlesthat help us be a more
effective, stronger version ofwho we are as human beings. And
so that has legs. I mean, youcan bring that to you know, I
work with youth, I work withcorporate groups that work with
US military, with governmentagencies, tribal communities and
employees all the time. And, youknow, these principles are are
(29:40):
evergreen, but you're basicallytaking you know, these
strategies, and when weincorporate them and what we do
everything that we do, it getsbetter. Well, DJ
Joe Cadwell (29:50):
vana says has been a fantastic conversation. Where
can people go to find out moreabout you and your work?
D.J. Vanas (29:56):
Best place to find me is on native discovery.com
That That's the website thathas, you know, the kind of the
overall view of what I do youknow who I am, who I do it with.
And then, and then the WarriorWithin my newest book can be
found wherever books are sold.
There's also an audio version onAudible and wherever you get
audiobooks, but there's a bonushour an hour and 20 minute
(30:17):
interview at the end of theaudio book done between me and
one of my best friends I'veknown since I was 17, who's now
one of the directors of theNational Medal of Honor
Institute. And so that was oneof the bonus things in the in
the audio part. And yes, I didnarrate the whole thing. four
full days. And I'm happy withhow with how it turned out. So
Joe Cadwell (30:38):
facing your fears right there. DJ, this has been a
fantastic conversation. Thankyou so much for taking the time
to be on my show today.
D.J. Vanas (30:46):
Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it very much.
DJ Vanness Welcome to Grit Nation.
D.J. Vanas (00:02):
Thank you for having me, Joe. Happy to be here.
Joe Cadwell (00:04):
Yeah, thank you so much, DJ for taking your time to
be on my show today, I'm reallyexcited to talk to you about
your, your new book and the workyou've been doing. But the new
book The Warrior Within Own YourPower to serve, fight, protect
and heal is a great read, I'vereally been enjoying my time in
your book. And before we getinto that DJ, maybe you can tell
the listener audience a littlebit more about who you are,
(00:26):
where you came from, and why youdecided to write a book about
the Warrior Within?
D.J. Vanas (00:31):
Sure. Well, my name is DJ Vanas. So I'm originally
from Muskegon, Michigan. I'm anenrolled member of the auto a
tribe. I'm a former militaryofficer, I was an Air Force, and
in uniform for 14 years. And Istarted doing this work over 25
years ago. And it was showingpeople how to use our
(00:51):
traditional warrior principlesfrom Native American communities
in what we do in service toothers. So how to stay strong,
how to stay resilient, how tocontinue serving at our best,
regardless of the circumstancesthat we're in. And so that's
what led me to this book, thisis my third book, this the book
that just came out the WarriorWithin. And it's a distillation
(01:14):
of all those principles laid outin 10 chapters, you know how to
stay strong, resilient, focusedin a chaotic world, and
continuing to deliver our best,regardless of what's happening.
Joe Cadwell (01:23):
And you're relying a lot on Native American
traditions. And I understandhaving read a little bit about
your backstory, and that DJ thatyou've worked with over 500
tribes across North America, andyou're like you say, from the
Ottawa tribe, originally, andyou join the service, but you
came from a service orientedfamily, didn't you?
D.J. Vanas (01:44):
I did, my mom was a career nurse, my dad was career
military. So I grew up withservice providers who I saw that
model of, you know, give 100% ofwho you are every day, and
sometimes I saw them doing it attheir own expense. And so
that's, I think one of thethings that led me to do this
type of work is trying to, I'vealways looked at my work as
providing for the providers, youknow, to strengthen the people
(02:06):
who are out there servingothers, because I grew up with
that mentality of give it allaway, and then you leave nothing
in reserve for yourself. And atthat point, you know, you kind
of lead yourself closer andcloser to burnout.
Joe Cadwell (02:18):
And that's what happened to you didn't it at a
certain point in your militarycareer, you were kind of on the
precipice of staying in themilitary, making it a career or
venturing out on your own, andit sounded like you were burning
the candle at both ends. And itreally started to manifest
itself physically.
D.J. Vanas (02:35):
It did. And so, and sometimes the best lessons you
learn or the most painful, thoseare the ones that stick with
you. And at that point, I was inthe military, I had a full team
of people I was in charge of.
And we had just started a familyand I just started a business
and I was burning the candle onboth ends and in the middle. And
it's unsustainable when you dothat, when you're not taking
(02:56):
care of yourself in the process.
And I wasn't I kept saying, I'llget to it later, when it's not
so crazy when it's not so busy,which is the you know, the the
mantra a lot of us use, thatgets us into hot water pretty
quickly, and later showed up andit showed up in the form of the
shingles, which is awful. Iwouldn't wish that on my worst
enemy. And it's the resurgenceof chickenpox later in life
brought on by stress, unmanagedstress. And so I am a born
(03:22):
again, passionate advocate forself care, you know, we want to
be strong and brave, not justtoday, or in this this week, we
want to do this for the longterm. We want to do this
sustainably. And we can't dothat over, you know, if we're
burning the candle on both ends,I say that in my book, very
adamantly, you cannot be awarrior, somebody who's in a
(03:42):
position to serve, you cannot bea warrior. If you're falling
apart. It just doesn't work.
Joe Cadwell (03:47):
And so the business that you started while you were
in the military was you weresort of a liaison for the Native
American tribes for the AirForce, is that correct? I was
D.J. Vanas (03:56):
I was recruited for the Air Force Academy. That was
my alma mater, proud graduate ofthe Air Force Academy. And I was
I wanted to help them increasediversity. You know, that was
one of the things that I went upand talk to them about is, you
know, federally fundedinstitution, 4400 people, we
only had a handful of us therewho were native. And I wanted to
help change that. And so theyput me out on the road work me
(04:18):
like a dog and I loved it. Iwent here, there and everywhere,
sharing the good word about theAir Force Academy about the the
route to Officer ship in the AirForce. And I found that I
absolutely loved it. I lovegoing out and speaking to groups
about, you know, not only whatwe had to offer, but the power
of education, the power ofhealthy choices, surround
yourself with the right people,and it kind of grew into a life
(04:40):
of its own. And that's why I gotto the point where I was like,
you know, it started to emerge.
And I had two full time jobs ata point I had to make a
decision.
Joe Cadwell (04:48):
And so you made that decision and you created
your own business and thatbusiness. Who did you sell your
business to? Or who did you workwith in your own business?
D.J. Vanas (04:56):
Well, I started my business with a Kinkos business
card and a sky page. You're, oh,that's how I started my
business. So bloom where you'replanted, you know, start
wherever you are, and then grow.
And my business is nativediscovery, Inc. And it's one of
those, you know, when you firststart off, you know, I had a
passionate vision. And I hadzero experience in that, you
(05:17):
know, feel. But I will tell you,I think it's infinitely more
important to know what you wantto do that how you're going to
do it, you'll figure out the howyou're going to do it in time.
But knowing what you want to do,that's one of the most important
questions we ever ask ourselves.
And it's scary, and it's big.
And there's no fear involved.
(05:37):
Because, you know, we think,Well, what if it doesn't happen?
You know, what, if it doesn'twork out, but spend the other
you know, spend more time on theother side of the fence? What if
it does work out in a, in a, ina way that's so much bigger than
you ever could have imagined?
Joe Cadwell (05:49):
For sure. And I'm picking you know, just hearing
you talk right now, DJ, I'mpicking out a few key words that
I noticed in the book vision,fear, time. And I think we you
know, we should invest a littlebit of time right now in getting
into your book, The WarriorWithin and in today's modern
context, how do we well, let'sgo back before today's modern
(06:09):
context, how how would theNative American people define
who warriors war
D.J. Vanas (06:14):
warriors were defined, you know, not that
Hollywood stereotypical image wesee all too often in movies and
TV. When we say warrior in ourtribal communities, it's a
different connotation, my mypeople we call a warrior
Ogeechee die. And that term hasto do with a person who has
committed their life todeveloping their Creator given
talents and abilities to be anasset or a benefit to the tribe
(06:35):
that they served. It was aboutleadership, by example, it was
about fighting for somethingbigger than their own personal
welfare. And at the heart ofthat role, it was somebody who
dedicated their lives tocontribution and service. So it
wasn't for personal glory. Youknow, let's, let's be honest,
most of what we do, we never getcredit for anyway. Right? Right.
But we do it if it's the rightthing for the right reasons. And
(06:56):
so it was somebody who is who isselfless, but also took care of
themselves, because they had totheir responsibility levels were
high. But at the end of the day,their role was defeated, protect
their people, not to feed themprotect their ego. So they're
very clear about their role.
Joe Cadwell (07:12):
And that kind of goes counter intuitive or
counter culture to whatHollywood wants us to believe
the rogue agent, the RogueWarrior alone by themselves
overcoming the odds and andthat, you know, seems to be
overhyped, over romanticizednotion of what a warrior is. And
you're saying that the NativeAmerican people, through the
centuries and millennia havedeveloped a warrior that is a
(07:33):
servant to the people who serveuntil the greater good,
D.J. Vanas (07:36):
yes, and it's accessible to anybody a day that
transcends race or age or genderor stage of life. It's it's a
beautiful path of contributionavailable for anybody willing to
walk it. And it's not aboutbeing in that lone wolf, it's
not about standing on amountaintop channeling
lightning, and you're beyondfear and pain and don't need
anybody or outside support, allyou need is the next for the
(07:58):
challenge. That's a bunch ofgarbage. You know, I say in the
book to our warriors neverfought alone. Why? Because
that's dumb. You're only goingto ever achieve a certain amount
in your life, when you're outthere winging it on your own,
you know, fighting the battles,you know, solo, I was taught
that we're a lot more like beesand ants than we are like
eagles, we need each other,we're better when we're with
(08:19):
each other, or with the rightpeople, let me be clear. But
we're built that way. You know,we're social creatures by
design, and we draw power fromeach other and can contribute
power to each other. And thenthe whole tribe is strengthened.
Joe Cadwell (08:32):
So how do we apply that in modern contexts? Because
we're all so busy now. We're alljust sort of, you know, running
100 miles an hour? And, again,how can we apply some of the
principles of ancient wisdom totoday's modern context?
D.J. Vanas (08:47):
Yeah, a big part of it. Great question. Because that
is the world we live in speed oflife is the speed of light, you
know, we're all running aroundwith their hair on fire, at
times, not even asking thequestion, Am I going in the
right direction anymore? So abig part of you know, getting
that right is, you know, one ofthe chapters I cover in the book
is about knowing your vision,you know, what's important to
you? What kind of life what kindof career are you trying to
(09:07):
build. And then, you know, onceyou identify what that looks
like, start surrounding yourselfwith the right tribe, you know,
create your own tribe, thepeople that are in your circle,
that are supportive, that areencouraging, that will hold you
accountable. You know, our beststuff comes out when we're in a
good environment. You know, whenwe're out there winging it or
doing it alone, you know, it'seasy to back off on our goals.
(09:30):
It's easy to you know, themoment something goes wrong,
that fear kicks in, and it'seasy to step away. But when
you're surrounded with otherpeople, other warriors, you
know, we become brave in thatmoment, and we're going to need
that we live in a tough world,you know, so we shouldn't if
we're doing it alone, we'redoing it wrong. We're violating
the laws of nature. I'll put itthat strongly. Because that's
what nature teaches us. We'rebuilt to be it you know, we're
(09:53):
social creatures by design.
Joe Cadwell (09:54):
So more like bees and ants and that low, flying
high above Okay,
D.J. Vanas (09:59):
that's one of Best stuff comes out.
Joe Cadwell (10:01):
You had mentioned vision and I know reading
through your book you youexperienced a vision quest or
numerous vision quest, didn'tyou over the course of your life
and, and I love the phrase thatduring these vision quests that
allows the dirt in your mudpuddle to settle, and you can
find clarity. In those moments,can you describe your personal
vision quest, and this reallyfalls along Native American
(10:22):
traditions. And then again,maybe a more modern context of
how people can go on their ownmini vision quest, perhaps?
D.J. Vanas (10:29):
Sure, yeah, I did four years of vision quest. And
Vision Quest is, you know, inmany tribes do it in different
capacities. But it's all donefor the same reason is to get
clarity in your life, to prayerfor direction, pray for
guidance, and your you know, toilluminate your path in life.
And, you know, they call it ahumble EIGRP, which is to cry
for a vision. And you don't knowwhy they call it that until you
(10:52):
go out, go out on your own. Sofour days, four nights, no food,
no water, no shelter. And it'sthe ultimate exercise. And like
you said, you know, putting thebook letting the dirt settle in
your mud puddle. You know,there's no, you're not fighting
traffic, you don't have media,you don't have other people
talking to you, you get ultimateclarity in a way that's so
profound. It's defined where Iam, even to this moment. And you
(11:16):
don't have to go through atraditional vision quest to get
clarity in your life, you can dothat for the first 10 minutes,
15 minutes or every day. And Ido that, that's how I start my
day. Because just letting thatdirt settle. Think about the
most important things that needto get done that day, what kind
of person I want to be in thatday. You know, having the
strength to handle whatever maybe thrown my way, because we
(11:38):
never know what that looks like.
And you start your day with aplace of clarity. And when we do
that we're so much moreeffective than what we do. We're
not running in chaos, we'reoperating from clarity is a gift
we give to ourselves.
Joe Cadwell (11:50):
So even before the your feet touch the floor, you
can begin your morning withclarity before you reach over,
grab the phone, start checkingemails playing Wordle, you know,
whatever it is for the morningarts, yeah, that's where the
chaos starts. And so you'resaying take a mini vision quest
and just really set the tone,the clarity of how you want to
proceed for the day and startfrom that point. That's, that's
(12:12):
fantastic. I do want to I just Ijust find it so interesting, you
are alone for four days in anarea the size of like a blanket,
you say you have a blanket, youhave your prayer pipe, you have
wear shorts, I imagine or a tshirt or shorts, just short,
just shorts. And in the book,you describe just incredible,
you know, heat and cold andweather, bugs, thirst, there's
(12:37):
no food and you stay in onearea, it's not like you're
wandering an area you'replanted. And that during that
that period of vision quest youare, you're hoping for that
vision to come to you that thatclarity,
D.J. Vanas (12:50):
you stick your spiritual flag in the ground,
and you you stay. And it's oneof those best exercises to I
mean, I learned a lot of goingthrough, you know, sitting with
the pain sitting with thesuffering. And everything in
your body is screaming, leave,go find water, get, you know,
leave this place. And that'swhere you have to lean into it
(13:12):
to really get to the other side.
And when you get to the otherside of the experience, that's
where transformation growthhappens. You know, people always
wonder, why are these ceremonyso hard? The reason why is
because we're exchanging onething for something else, we're
exchanging physical comfort andfamiliarity for transformation,
growth and wisdom. And itdoesn't come easy. But man,
those are the lessons like Isaid, I carry with me to this
(13:32):
day until the moment I draw mylast breath. I mean, there were
profound experiences, and justpracticing that of, of, you
know, not running away from thethings that, you know, scare us,
but standing there in thatemotion. And getting through to
the other side is a greatpractice, because we're going to
need that, you know, it's notthe question of if something
scary happens, but when it does,how are we going to respond?
Joe Cadwell (13:56):
Right, and that's that the tempering of steel, you
know, you have to just hammer onthat steel to create that
temperance and, and strength.
D.J. Vanas (14:05):
Yeah, there's a great quote, and I'm terrible
with quotes Joe. But I rememberthis one, it's seared into my
mind is Mildred wit stoven. Idon't know what else she ever
quoted. But I love this one. Shesaid a clay pot sitting in the
sun will always be a clay pot,it has to go through the white
heat of the furnace to becomeporcelain. And so when people go
through those tough experiencesin life, just remember, embrace
(14:26):
all of it. I know it's painful,I know it hurts. But when you
come back through the otherside, you are going to be a
better version of yourself thanyou ever could have been without
that experience. So that's oneof the things that I've learned
in life. And I encourage peoplegoing through hard times, just
stay the course keep putting onefoot in front of the other. And
you're going to see what youreally have inside of you that
(14:48):
warrior spirit will emerge inthose moments.
Joe Cadwell (14:51):
And you talk about in the book, facing your fears
in a Native American tradition.
It sounds like the plains tribeswould use something called
Counting coup, which I'm alittle bit confused about, I
hope he can straight me out ofhis DJ. But I understand that
counting coup is coming face toface with your enemy, and
showing them that you are notafraid of them, that you are not
(15:11):
going to back down from them.
And you actually just reach overto tap them with a coup stick,
which which I can understand,you know, as opposed to laying
waste hitting them with a clubor, you know, spear or something
like that. Western Plains, youtouch them with a stick and you
show you know, I, I recognize,you know, my fear, the question
(15:33):
I have, and this is what keepsthe enemy from just laughing
your head off when that countingcoup happened, I was confused by
that.
D.J. Vanas (15:40):
Nothing keeps the enemy from doing that. That's
why it's so brave. That's whyit's all about expression of
bravery and courage. That's whycounting coup is such a higher
honor than actually striking anenemy down because of what it
required. It required guts, youknow, at a core level, to be
able to stand there, you know,face to face with your fear your
opponent, the one who isthreatening you and say, I'm not
(16:02):
afraid of you, I'm so not afraidof you, I'm not going to strike
you down. And the point I'vetried to make in the, in the
book with, you know, sharingthat tradition is because life
is filled with those moments offear that we're going to face.
And when we face them head on,we can get through those
challenges. We can't do that ifwe're trying to run away,
(16:23):
diminish, shove it in a corner,ignore it, when we face it are
so much better. And we build ourcourage reservoir. You know,
when we show those moments ofbravery, we can Storm Away for
the future, you know, and whenwe acknowledge those moments of,
you know, courage and bravery,we can save it up for the next
time we encounter a scary momentand look down at that reservoir
(16:44):
and say, you know, I've beenhere before, I've been through
this, I know what this lookslike, I know what this feels
like. And I've done this before,I've got this, you know when we
can, and when we store thosecourage moments away, because a
lot of times we go through hardtimes, and we just get through
it. And we go Oh, thank godthat's over. I encourage people
to look back at those momentsand the last two years, how many
(17:04):
times have we had to face fear?
You know, and when are thosemoments of courage that you've
shown? You know, and when youreflect on that, you get to
operate from a place of not justfaith, which is important, but
also evidence. It's evidencebased, you know, so when you run
into that scary moment, you canlook in there and go, I've been
here before I got this, and I'mproving it to myself,
Joe Cadwell (17:28):
right. And having, having had my fair share of in
the occupation that I pursued.
As a lot of listeners know, Iwas a commercial diver for over
25 years, having been trained inthe military and, and having had
plenty of, you know, puckermoments along the way. Yeah,
yeah, you learn from those wholearn how to handle that stress
and push past it. And so Soaddressing your fears head on, I
(17:52):
also picked up out of your book,you know, the, the seasonality
of approaching task, and thefact that, you know, there were
in Native American cultures,there were, there were times for
war, and there was times forfarming or for hunting and those
type of things. And when weattack a problem that is seems
(18:13):
daunting, and maybe we arefearful, it's better to just
sort of pace ourselves and gointo it full bore, but also
realize that we need somerecovery time. And I was hoping
you could talk a little moreabout that.
D.J. Vanas (18:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
Great question. And that's, it'sone of the things that, you
know, a human being can eat anentire buffalo, by themselves,
just not at once. You know, biteby bite, you can consume the
whole thing. And it's the samething with challenges going
through scary moments, is youdon't have to do it all today.
You know, it's like that. That'swhat that chapter was all about
as attack and attack. Again, berelentless in that pursuit. But
(18:49):
also take breaks. have momentswhere you can, you know,
regroup, regather, recharge,reboot yourself, so that you can
get back into the fight and andbe effective in what you do. You
know, it's the same idea withboxers between rounds in a
fight. Why do they take breaksso that they can recharge and
get back into the fight andoperate at a high level, you
(19:11):
can't do that if you just strung12 rounds together in one big
fight. You know, it's just amoment of you're going to
degrade over time. So we need tobe able to do that for
ourselves, especially whendealing with big projects,
something that's scary,something that's going to take a
while, you know, we got to paceourselves, it doesn't mean that
we stop the attack, or there'stimes where you can pause and
(19:32):
regroup and then get back intoit.
Joe Cadwell (19:36):
And also I saw something there's a difference
between quitting. In your bookyou outline the difference
between someone who just quitsand someone that surrenders
surrenders, yes. And can youdefine for us the difference
between quitting and differencebetween surrendering?
D.J. Vanas (19:51):
Yes, absolutely. And and it's an important
distinction to make, you know,our warriors. Traditionally in
our in our native communities,they fought against incredible
So they were outmatched, numberswise, technology wise, you know,
lied to and deceived at everyturn. I mean, it was just every
odd was stacked against them,and they still found a way to
keep going and keep going. Andour great Native leaders, you
(20:13):
know, may have surrendered inthe end, but they never quit.
You know, warrior spirit wasalways paramount for these
leaders. Now what surrender is,is when you realize that what
you're doing is no longerworking, it's not getting any
results anymore. And actually,you know, what we're continuing
to do, sometimes is doing moreharm than good. And when we
(20:34):
realize that, that we are at theend of our power, surrendering
is okay. And surrendering,actually is based on, you know,
it's a courageous act in thatmoment. So that's different
quitting is when things gettough, things get uncomfortable,
we just walk away and say, Idon't want to do this anymore.
There's so there's a differencebetween surrendering and
quitting surrendering is not,you know, there's nothing
(20:56):
shameful about that. Sometimeswe have to surrender to say
things like, I need help, youknow, I what I'm doing is not
working, I need outsideassistance, you know, that
people struggle in life,sometimes we need to go out of
our way to find somebody who canhelp us in that moment. And
that's there's nothing wrongwith that, that's an ultimate
act of bravery sometimes, is tofinally admit, I need some help
(21:18):
here,
Joe Cadwell (21:19):
who's reaching out for help. And that will lead me
that seems like a perfect seguenow to talk about staying a
warrior, but being realisticabout, you know, your
progression through life. And asyou begin to get older, maybe
you're not as inclined to pickup the war club about to battle,
but you can also still havevalue within modern day society,
(21:40):
I think undervalues our seniorpopulation. But in Native
American cultures, it seems likeyou truly did value and cherish
the wisdom that was achievedfrom these elders. And I was
hoping you could talk aboutmaybe transitioning, and how do
you know when to transition?
D.J. Vanas (21:55):
First of all, you know, again, going back to the
original definition, you know,of somebody who commits to using
their Creator, given talentmobility over a lifetime, to
contribute to their tribe, and,and, and to serve them. So that
can change and transition theway that we contribute the way
that we serve. So it might notbe the physical way, you know,
as in our younger years, but itdoesn't mean that a warrior
(22:19):
can't still be a contributor.
And that's where that elder rolecomes in, where they're not out
there leading the charges, butthey're, they're sharing wisdom,
they're sharing guidance arestrengthening people, you know,
at a character level, which iscritically important and
building a strong group ofpeople. So we're just doing it
in a different way, we'reshifting gears is all it comes
down to, and, and out of thebillion reasons why I'm proud to
(22:40):
be Native American, you know,one of them is the fact that we
we don't just, you know, acceptour elders, we honor them. They
are treasures for our people.
They are the corporate knowledgeof who we are, I mean, they have
gathered wisdom and stories andexperiences, life lessons, and
they hand all that down, youknow, to benefit and empower the
(23:01):
people that are coming up behindthem. So the elder role was not
about getting to a certain age,and you punch your card, now
you're officially an elder, theelder role was a path that was,
you know, people would putthemselves on with purpose on
purpose. And it was to gather asmuch good stuff as they possibly
could, and share it with as manypeople as they possibly could.
(23:21):
That was the whole role to makeother people better, you know,
getting, you know, being anelder getting older is
automatic, you know, gettingbetter is by design. And that's
what our elders were all alwaysabout. They were in continual
growth. And they lead byexample, in that regard.
Joe Cadwell (23:37):
And some of the examples, you talk about values
quite a bit in your, in yourbook as well. And some of the
the inherent value values, theancient wisdom, even going back
to stoicism, and you know, othercultures that date back
millennia. stoics had courage,wisdom, temperance, and justice
as sort of their core values.
And I noticed a lot of thosethemes were were also depicted
(23:59):
in your book, The WarriorWithin. And I thought that was
really interesting that, youknow, the ancient Greeks and
the, and the Native Americansshared a lot of these similar,
long lasting values. Yeah,
D.J. Vanas (24:13):
yeah. Well, truth is truth. You know, when you melt
everything down to its coreessence, you start coming back
to some common themes. And thesecommon themes are what people
have learned the hard way, onwhat really has meaning, what
really keeps people together,what allows people to endure the
unendurable. And when you goback to these evergreen values,
I mean, this is the buildingblocks of creating a structure,
(24:35):
in a society in a community thatallows them to endure, you know,
and so a lot of these do comeback as common themes. You know,
we have the seven grandfatherteachings for my tribe, which,
you know, honesty, courage, allthese things that you know, when
we go back to over and overagain, the same things come out
because that's what I said inthe book is it shows again, that
(24:57):
things built on values haveattended See to last. And we can
do that individually, we can dothat as a group as a team, but
know what those values are, itgives us an anchor point and
stormy seas, you know, becausewhen all hell's breaking loose,
and there's chaos all around us,if we know what our values are,
we are we are standing on apatch of solid ground, we're
going to be okay. Because inthat moment, we know what to say
(25:18):
yes to. And we know what to sayno to gives us clarity. In a
world of chaos.
Joe Cadwell (25:23):
It sounds like it's all just comes full circle,
everything we're talking aboutbuilds on each other the vision,
the values, the relying on otherpeople within your tribe,
relying on wisdom of elders. Oneof the components in your book
that I noticed, and I justloved, was it was full of humor,
DJ, and you had some really,really humorous parts in there.
(25:43):
And I know humor is also I don'tknow if we can call it a value,
but it is incredibly powerful instressful moments, and as an
overall philosophy not to takethings too seriously. And I
think your book exemplifiesthat. And how does humor play
out in Native American cultures,
D.J. Vanas (26:01):
I'm glad you brought this up. You know, our elders
always have said the same thing.
Laughter is the best medicine.
You know, humor is the thingthat allows us to stay flexible,
and, and get through the storms.
I mean, humor is what else, youknow, allowed our people to
survive all the things thatwe've been through over the last
several centuries, you know,displacement, and warfare and
(26:23):
disease and all the things, youknow, we have been able to
endure that. And one of the, youknow, secret sauce elements of
that is our humor. You know, Imean, tribal communities, they,
they understand that this istruly medicine. And it elevates
us at a time where we're down inthe dumps, it makes us
healthier. I mean, science isproving all these things now. So
(26:45):
it's not just a cool bumpersticker, or a t shirt, laughter
is the best medicine, science iscatching up to our elders. And
they've proven it, you know,they're showing how, you know,
laughter and humor, releasechemicals in our bloodstream
that allow us to learn faster,we get along with other people
better, it boosts or immunities,which is great anymore, what
sense flu seasons year round,and it lowers our stress
(27:07):
hormones. And the best partabout the whole thing is, it's
free. You know, and that's whyI'm such a fan of traditional
wisdom. You know, it's like,these are the fundamentals and
the basics, that have notchanged through the millennia.
And thankfully, you know,they're still there for us,
because in a world of chaos, andconfusion, and information
overload as normal, we stillhave these, you know, classic
touchstone, things that havebeen proven in the worst of
(27:30):
times to still be effective. AndI'd argue they're needed now
more than ever.
Joe Cadwell (27:36):
I agree, as well.
So somebody was just readingyour book now, what do you hope
that they would get out of your,
D.J. Vanas (27:43):
I hope that they come away after they read the
book with a renewed sense ofconfidence in who they are, and
what they can do, that they havesome clarity and their purpose,
their path, that they understandthat we all struggle at times,
we all deal with fear, but, butalso getting strategies on how
to create strength in their ownlife and do do this sustainably.
(28:05):
Because like I said, the wholegoal is not to be brave. In the
moment, it's to be brave for thelong haul. Because I am
convinced, you know, thatwarrior role that's based on
service, you know, that's ourhighest calling, if we're not
put here to serve, why are wehere at all. And so the book was
written to help people do thatsustainably do it at a stronger
(28:25):
and higher level, and toactually get joy back in and the
way that they serve otherpeople. Because like I said, I
think that's why we're here.
Joe Cadwell (28:35):
Now, that's a fantastic message. And I know
you've taken this message tothis as your third book, I
believe you said, you also workas a public speaker, and what
message when you when you'rebrought in to speak? Are you
asked to speak on a certaintheme? Or do you talk about the
Warrior Within, you know,underlying philosophy and
corporate culture? How does thatwork?
D.J. Vanas (28:54):
Yeah, I'm, you know, my niche is by met my message,
not by industry. And so thismessage, you know, is
transportable across thespectrum. And so I always come
back to, you know, sharing theseprinciples, and again, being
adamant that these principlesare accessible to anyone, you
know, they're, they're notexclusive. They don't, it
(29:16):
doesn't matter what yourbackground or your age or your
gender is. These are principlesthat help us be a more
effective, stronger version ofwho we are as human beings. And
so that has legs. I mean, youcan bring that to you know, I
work with youth, I work withcorporate groups that work with
US military, with governmentagencies, tribal communities and
employees all the time. And, youknow, these principles are are
(29:40):
evergreen, but you're basicallytaking you know, these
strategies, and when weincorporate them and what we do
everything that we do, it getsbetter. Well, DJ
Joe Cadwell (29:50):
vana says has been a fantastic conversation. Where
can people go to find out moreabout you and your work?
D.J. Vanas (29:56):
Best place to find me is on native discovery.com
That That's the website thathas, you know, the kind of the
overall view of what I do youknow who I am, who I do it with.
And then, and then the WarriorWithin my newest book can be
found wherever books are sold.
There's also an audio version onAudible and wherever you get
audiobooks, but there's a bonushour an hour and 20 minute
(30:17):
interview at the end of theaudio book done between me and
one of my best friends I'veknown since I was 17, who's now
one of the directors of theNational Medal of Honor
Institute. And so that was oneof the bonus things in the in
the audio part. And yes, I didnarrate the whole thing. four
full days. And I'm happy withhow with how it turned out. So
Joe Cadwell (30:38):
facing your fears right there. DJ, this has been a
fantastic conversation. Thankyou so much for taking the time
to be on my show today.
D.J. Vanas (30:46):
Thank you, Joe. I appreciate it very much.
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