Hunter Hayes: Chart-Topping Journey, Career Cultivation, Navigating the Music Industry, and Red Sky Revelations

Episode Transcript
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Austin Seltzer (00:01):
Welcome to the Grounds for Success podcast.
I'm your host, austin Siltzer.
Together, we'll unveil the keysto success in the music
industry.
Join me as I explore my guest'slife stories and experiences to
uncover practical insights tohelp you align with your goals
more effectively.
Hey coffee drinkers, welcome tothe Grounds for Success podcast

(00:28):
.
I'm Austin Siltzer and I'm amixing and mastering engineer
with over 10 years of experiencein the music industry.
Today, my guest is Hunter Hayes.
Hunter is a chart-toppingmulti-platinum singer,
songwriter, producer andmulti-instrumentalist.
He's had five Grammynominations, won several ACM
awards, nominated for multipleCMA awards and several ACAs, and

(00:55):
in 2012, he became the youngestsolo male act to top the
Billboard Hot Country chartswith his single Wanted.
Through our conversation today,you'll see that Hunter has had
an entire lifetime of musicexperience.
He can play over 30 instruments.
He was basically just anatural-born talent.
He got a toy accordion wheneverhe was, I think, three and just

(01:19):
continued to play more and moreinstruments, and through this
story, you will see how wisethis dude is.
After talking to him, I wasrethinking so many of the
thoughts that I had come tobelieve or had been told about
the industry and about how youshould look at your career.

(01:40):
Today, we're going to talk aboutHunter's creative process and
how he works with differentproducers and then how different
phases of an album havedifferent creation types and how
they look and really just howan album comes together for him.
One of the coolest things thatwe'll talk about is how
different it is to be indieversus a major artist and,

(02:02):
ultimately, how to go aboutfiguring out where you want to
be in your career and the thingsthat you should think about
whenever you're making thechoices whether you want to be
indie or major, or who you wantto go on tour with, what places
you should be playing to growthe career, the way that you
want to.
All of these things really gointo who you want to be one day,

(02:25):
and Hunter talks incrediblywell about how to do this.
Ultimately, we learn about howHunter entered the music world
and kind of where he's at today,and we just learn along this
path of Hunter's career whatevery little nuance of every

(02:50):
choice makes to the big picture.
I think he has a really greatvision on helping people figure
out where they want to go andthe moves that it takes to get
there, and I think that that'sthe biggest takeaway that you're
going to learn from thisepisode.
Alright, let's get caffeinated.
Dude, I'm so glad to have youon here.

Hunter Hayes (03:11):
Thanks for doing this on what I would imagine
would probably be a day off foryou normally, normally, yeah,
and then I Really means a lotfor you to make time and do it
anyway.

No, it means a lot that you would do this.
You're here for only a coupleof days and you have, I'm
guessing, a slam-pack schedule,but you made some time to come
by and have some coffee with me.

Well, yes, coffee, really awesome people and
really nerdy conversations.
I mean, you kind of got methere.

Yeah, yeah, I definitely that was an easy one.
That was an easy yes, I'm aneasy yes on a nerdy conversation
, love love.

Here we are.
How many episodes have you done?

so far.
This will be 16 that I filmed,but I think we have six out
right now.
Great.

Yeah, so 16 so far total.

Yeah, filmed, yeah.
So it's a relatively newpodcast and we've already had so
many awesome guests.

That's the biggest thing you've learned so far,
after doing 16.
That's a pretty stout numberfor a new thing.

Yeah, I would say the thing that I've learned
above all is that almost everysingle person, when they have
reached success like we'retalking about, you could ask 20
people what success is and theywould say that this person's
successful, that every singleone of them only cares to be

(04:33):
happy.
Now, happiness is the biggestsuccess.
It's like whenever you havereached X level, you just want
to be happy, and I thought thatthat was so fascinating that
it's no longer about money orfame or this or that.
It's really just about gettingto choose things that make them
more happy.
I think that's pretty freakingcool.

Yeah, I've also seen that.
Happiness, sustainability, youknow, yeah, yes, here we are.
Well, thanks for having me man,absolutely.

What brings you?

to town.
Taping can't say what, buttaping something.
Yeah, I think that's all I cansay.

I'm taping something.
Oh, you're taping a podcast,dude.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, exactly, I'm taping this.

This is what brings me to town.
Yeah, we can't really talkabout it but I love that.

So I think you were just on a tour, or you at
least played a show, I thinkyesterday or the day before,
right Two days ago.
Yeah, okay, was this part of a?

tour that you were on.
No, these are sort of one-offsfor the summer we did.
I did my first tour, the RedSky tour, in support of the Red
Sky album, which came out inApril.
I did that in May.
It was my first tour in fouryears.
It was the most demanding tourI think I've ever done,
especially after being removedfrom touring, and unconditioned,

(05:57):
after four years of just kindof working in the studio at home
.
So it was life-giving, man, Icould talk about that tour for a
whole hour in and of itself,just because there were so many
breakthroughs for me personally,professionally,
performance-wise.
It was my three Ps.
I like threes and those are mythree Ps.

(06:17):
No, it really was solife-giving.
I was so burnt and so drainedbeforehand because I had, From
the time that lockdown wasannounced to this tour, there
was very little time that I gavemyself off.
I ran right into work.
I just locked myself in my home, which is a studio, and just

(06:44):
got to work and just saw it asokay.
If I'm forced to be away fromthe thing that I love, which is
playing live, then I need tomake the best of the time that
I'm given.
So I'm going to work.
I'm going to work on this albumwhile no one's watching, while
no one's paying attention, andaccomplish a lot of things that
I knew I needed to accomplishand make the best with what I've

(07:06):
been given.
A lot of people did that duringthe COVID lockdown.
So this was kind of my firstand right before the tour man, I
had hit so many walls justenergetically that the tour
really felt like I had come backto life.
So I took, for the first timein my entire life, took a month
off after the tour Bravo, and itwasn't really necessarily like

(07:30):
a month off, it was just Ifinally gave myself space to do
the things that I'd never givemyself space to do, like human
shit, and it was so rewardingand so eye-opening and I learned
so much and then, kind ofjumping back into the work,
making music, the thing that Ilove the most it gave me so many
sort of like little tidbits ofvaluable information to put into

(07:53):
practice moving forward.
So, all that to say, finish thetour in May, really looking
forward to another tour soon.
But you got to understand likeI'm a Nashville kind of kid and
what I mean by that is Nashvilletours on the weekend, you know
we bus call on Wednesday night,we do Thursday, Friday, Saturday
and or a Sunday every now andthen Most of the time, you know,

(08:15):
you're back on Sunday.
It doesn't matter what genrelike you, just that's the
infrastructure.
Also because buses used to costa fifth of what they cost right
now.
So you can afford to do that.
And so my touring was all year.
My preference is I tour all year, February through November.
We're out every weekend doingat least two shows, Whereas this

(08:36):
was a month we did 22 shows in31 days.
That's foreign to me, that'snot normal.
So this was a lot of thingsthat I wasn't sort of, you know,
ready for or slash expecting.
It was really great toexperience it All.
That said, it was very quick,it flashed by very quickly.
So I think it's taken a coupleof months for me to sort of like
you know forgive me for usingthe term unpack, but unpack it

(08:59):
and process it.

I do like the pun there and, yeah, I mean that
I can understand how, afterfour years if that's the thing
that really gives you life beingon the road you had to be for
four years just yearning forthat and I'm sure that that was
such a nice payoff.
But it does bring up this ideain my head that if you spent

(09:22):
four years making music I knowthat you're a multi
instrumentalist.
Like you play a lot ofinstruments Do you also engineer
and produce a lot of what youwork on?
I did.

I do.
I worked with a lot of greatproducers, but the way that I
work with them is different perperson and I think on this
process I learned so much aboutownership and what parts of the
process really matter to me andwhat parts I need to take

(09:56):
ownership and drive and whatparts I need collaboration.
Where's the healthiest placefor me to look for and get
collaboration?
And I got to understand myrelationship with validation in
the collaboration.
Some of I realized whatcollaborations were specifically
seeking validation and whatcollaborations were so

(10:18):
empowering that I felt like Iwas in charge and I felt like I
was driving the car and it's notan egotistical place for me at
all.
There is a significant lessonto be learned in trusting your
gut, especially in the chapterthat I'm in, and I learned it

(10:38):
the hard way, I think in acouple of cases Tried a lot of
stuff that didn't work and trieda lot of stuff that felt really
natural and still was cravingvalidation because it was a lot
of stuff I'd never done before,so sort of coming to understand
a lot of that.
But I did a lot of theproduction, a lot.
I'm going to say a lot becauseI'm thinking right now of like

(11:01):
my co-producer, ruslan, I wasable to come in with these crazy
stacked sessions and he wasable to help me get the picture
out of what was on tape.
I guess I love referring toproduction in the same way that
you think of directors, like allof it matters, but what do we

(11:23):
need to pay attention to?
What's the scene we're painting, who's the main actor, all
those things, what's the storywe're telling, etc.
So I love looking at it thatway and I think Ruslan.
When I think of Ruslan, I thinkof real collaboration and there
was just a lot of time with me.
Every song had, like anywherefrom three to seven different
versions of itself.
Wow.
And then I ended up doing a lotof.

(11:43):
I worked with some incrediblemixing engineers and I also
ended up mixing some of itmyself, which was a weird like.
I am not qualified to do thisat all, and yet I'm the only one
who can hear what I'm hearingand I can't get it.
I can't explain it enough toget what I'm looking for.
So fucking I gotta figure itout.

I mean that totally makes sense, especially
if you've lived with this babyfor four years.
I mean it's something so closeto you.
You put so much time.
Why, if there's a couplenuances that you can't get
across, why wouldn't you justtake it to the finish line?

Yeah.

I mean, I totally understand that To
finish off like this chapter ofyour life and we're going to go
all the way back and then we'llcome back to this point.
But it sounds like you havesome new music coming up.
I'd love to know a little bitabout what makes this next track
special to you and what's goingon right now, so that we can go

(12:40):
back to the beginning andfigure out how we got here.

So this album, Red Sky, started as an evil twin to
my last album, which was calledWild Blue.
Wild Blue was the first albumthat I decided to make.
I was at a major label and itwas the first time that I
decided you know what I'm goingto make, whatever I want, with
the assumption that no one willever hear it, hoping someone

(13:06):
will right, hoping it'll all getreleased.
But at the same time, theprocess that I had before was
very much vote by committee, 18people in a room, excel sheets,
what songs make the album.
I wrote a hundred songs peralbum minimum and that's how
that got done.
And so that became a verystart-stop process and it was
very discouraging for me and itled me to a lot of

(13:29):
misconceptions about myself anda lot of just sort of like
conditioning that, like not totrust myself.
And so, while blue was a chancefor me to say I'm gonna make
whatever I want and it's okay ifno one hears it, I'm proud of
it, which is where the tattoo inmy arm it's a paper airplane.
Like the concept of the paperairplane was you make the best

(13:49):
thing you can, you pour yourheart into it, you put it all on
paper in this particularpicture and you throw it and you
let it catch the wind and it'llfind who it needs to find.
It's the separation between artand commerce because I really
needed that and so I made whileblue and I was just really proud
of it and there's a lot ofthings on that record that I'd
never done before and I had afucking blast, and there's a lot

(14:09):
of stuff that I think if peopleheard it they'd be considering
what they may or may not.
I don't know what anybody wherethe fuck anybody's hurt my music
at this point, but because it'sall over the place, like I get
people anyway.
So while blue was meexperimenting and there was this
sort of like alt rock thingthat was born because I was I am
really influenced by a lot ofdifferent genres and at that

(14:31):
time I was really going throughlike I.
You know, some of the mostplayed albums were, you know,
anywhere from U2 to Tonio andPilots to, you know, foo
Fighters, things like that.
So I was really influenced by,I was really experiencing the
connection with songs that tapinto the angst that I was
feeling at that time With thesort of struggles I was,

(14:54):
whatever learning about.
And the struggle is leaving amajor and going on your own path
, or Just the struggles of beingan artist and trying to yeah,
just writing a hundred songs andjust getting told no a hundred
times.
You know it's like okay, well,at some point you got to shut up

(15:15):
and trust that.
You know, with all due respect,right, I love the people.
I mean, I think what I learnedin that process was how
important it is for me as anartist.
There's going to be times whereI have to be the one that
stands up in the room and sayslisten.
I know that I'm the leastexperienced person in this room.
I'm also the person who shookhands with my fans.
I've given them hugs, we'vetalked, I've looked them in the

(15:36):
eye.
They've told me stories aboutthe songs that they connect with
.
All of you guys just got totrust me on this Also.
They just connect with you andtrusting that.
That's a great point.
I'm so appreciative that yousaid that, because I think a lot
of artists need to hear thatmore often.

Yeah, and I really appreciate you saying
that you are the person at theend of the day that they
resonate with.
Yeah, you know.

So Red Sky was a concept where I was like, ok,
I'm going to put all my angstystuff here and I wrote a bunch
of stuff.
Wallflower was one of the firstsongs.
That's on Red Sky.
But Red Sky is essentiallythree different albums.
Because I wrote Red Sky andthen I realized there was this
whole other thing that startedhappening when I again, the more
doors you open as you create,the more you learn about

(16:17):
yourself and the more excitedyou get, the more you play it
for friends.
They're like, oh my god, wherehas this been?
There were like three differentalbums that I was working on.
I love working ahead becauseit's all different.
The writing process iscompletely isolated from the
production process is completelyhonestly, I think there's a

(16:38):
middle ground, right.
There's the writing, there'sthe splatter paint and then
there's like the OK, what'sgoing to make it to the movie
part?
Absolutely, and they're alldifferent seasons for me.
And writing in the middle, thewriting in the splattering paint
, requires so much safety that Ilove working on albums way
ahead of time, because in mymind it's the same thing as Wild

(17:00):
Blue no one has to hear it,there's no pressure, no one's
waiting for it, no one's judgingit right now, and so, but even
in doing so, I think a lot of myteam really encouraged me to
combine all the things that Iwas working on into Red Sky with
the sort of explanation of well, if you really want fans to

(17:22):
understand, we have a greatopportunity to show fans all of
your personalities as a musicmaker and worth considering what
it would look like to have aproject with a little bit of all
that, and it took me a secondto kind of sink into and
understand it, because I likecategorizing things.

(17:45):
And then it became this sort oflike three act album that goes
from familiar to fresh to sortof like adventurous, and so the
next phase is there were over 50songs written for those three
projects, and so there's a lotof stuff that got left behind,

(18:08):
and there's a couple of songsthat the fans have heard and, by
the grace of God, care enoughabout to fight for, and so we're
now at the phase where I wantto put the song out called Roses
, which is like my sad singleanthem and it's like I think
it's the most.
I'm not going to say it's likethe most vulnerable song on the

(18:29):
record, but when I sing it Ifeel like I'm letting people in
on a part of me that's very hardto let people into, but it
feels very honest.
Everything I do has that sortof like bar of it has to be like
I have to be able to speak toit on a personal level.
This is, I think, pushing thateven further.

(18:51):
And yeah, I just I think for awhile I was like God, it has no
place on the album and then Irealized no, it's one of the
most important thing on thealbum.
So, roses and it's currently myfavorite production too it's
just one of those things thathappens when you.
We can go and do it later, butyeah, it's just my sad single
anthem for people.

Yeah, that I love that, and if maybe it's not
the most vulnerable, but if youfeel that vulnerable whenever
you're singing it, then itclearly is that vulnerable.

Yeah.

You know that and I'm sure that people
resonate with it that way.
So I think that at this pointwe should go all the way back,
because I want to figure outwhat your young life was like,
like your childhood, yourparents, kind of like how you
got to this point and ultimately, I want to figure out the

(19:44):
stepping stones of how youbecame so successful, because of
your name is synonymous withyou know great music, being a
top echelon artist, where I meanpeople know you.
Thank God, that's really goodto hear.
I mean my girl, cass upstairssaid, her 21st birthday was made
so incredibly special at a showof yours which I mean she can't
remember a ton of it, but thatmeans she was having a great

(20:07):
time.
And so I want to figure outsome of the stepping stones to
get there, so that the viewers,the watchers and the listeners
can hopefully take away a coupleof things and implement them
into their life or, a fan, justbe able to resonate with you
deeper.
And so let's go all the wayback and can you tell me some

(20:28):
about your parents and maybelike your early, early childhood
and kind of what shaped thatversion of you?

Yeah, so I wasn't.
I didn't grow up in a musicalfamily and randomly, I was an
only child.
That wasn't random.
My grandmother gave me a toy.
So the word is, I have heardthis story enough to repeat it,
so I do my best but I don'tremember any of this.
But apparently when I was youngI would you know, watch my

(21:00):
babysitter had a group in SouthLouisiana live music everywhere,
lots of Cajun music and sosinging in French.
Didn't understand what theywere saying, but the music was
fun.
It's very dance.
It's dance friendly, right, andI think it's still the reason
that I have to have every 16thnote filled in in my production,
because it came from listeningto Cajun music.
But we just watched thesepeople on TV all day playing

(21:27):
music and I would take thingsaround the house and make them
into instruments at mybabysitter's house.
And so my grandmother decided togive me a toy accordion for my
second birthday and according tomy father, like I never put it
down, I apparently like startedplaying along with some stuff on
the radio and he like onemorning I was playing along with

(21:49):
a song and he like pulled thetruck over and was like play
that again.
I did, apparently, so I don'tknow how to read music.
I just listened and I learnedby ear and I think that's thank.
I'm really grateful for thatthat.
That was the way that I learnedmusic you know what a wicked
skill Does that?

do you have perfect pitch or just like
perfect recreation, like you canhear and know exactly what it
is?

Perfect pitch, like I couldn't tell you, like
how many synths you're off.
I could tell you you're sharpor flat on a note and I can hum
a note, et cetera, you know.
So to that extent I've beentold I have perfect pitch.
It's a weird thing to claim youknow what I mean.

Yeah, it's a weird fucking thing to say.
Actually, even asking, I waslike it's a weird thing to say.
But I mean then you know, likepeople like Charlie Puth, you
know like put it out there andthat's like a thing we're very
proud of.

Yeah good, yeah good.
I am very proud of it too.
Anyway, I just haven't made myTikTok series about it, but so
yeah.
So I you know, very early on Iwas learning things and I just
wanted more music in my life.
Like I asked for a drum kit andmy parents were saying it's
cause they got me a drum kit formy like fifth Christmas.

(23:02):
And then I was given a guitarfor my sixth birthday and that
just kind of became I guess Isay became.
Most of the instruments that Ihave a strong relationship with
were gifts at a significantpoint, right Birthday Christmas.
One was an Easter.
I got my first bass as anEaster present, which I didn't

(23:24):
know that was a thing.
You opened an egg and yeah,exactly, it was an.
Easter basket with a littlemini, what has now become
ukulele basses, but at the timeit was just little like electric
bass with these rubber strings.
Whoa, I didn't know that was athing, short scale sounds like a
like a 50s P bass going throughlike a flip top.

(23:44):
That's really cool.
Like used it up until I brokeone of the rubber strings and
it's impossible to find thosepercent, it doesn't matter.
Fell in love with just likeinstruments and started.
There's so many restaurantsthat have live music in my
hometown and so we would go outand my dad would put me on the
side of the stage so that Icould pretend I was playing with

(24:06):
the band and play my littleaccordion.
And one night one of the guysin the band came to my dad
during a break and he was like,does he know any of his songs?
My dad was like, yeah, he knowsthese three.
And they pulled me up, theygive me a mic and I start
whaling whatever French I couldmake up when I was three years
old.
And then we started doing thatmore often, just going to
different like bands.

(24:27):
It's crazy to fucking tell thestory, but like going to
different like bands atdifferent places, and I would
stand side stage same thing, youknow.
And so then I started showingup at the same like two or three
bands performances, restaurants, festivals and it was this one
band that we ended up like kindof traveling with They'd do like
a four hour set at a restaurant.
I would jump in for like mylittle 15 minutes and do my

(24:49):
three songs, just have a blast,and then go take an app.
Miss those days.
But and then when I was seven,I just didn't want to get off
stage.
So like by the time I was sevenI started like they started
booking festivals and you knowcorporate functions that wanted
Cajun music, you know the MardiGras theme, all that stuff, and

(25:09):
I was like the front man, thefront kid At seven.

At seven.
Yeah, dude my goodness.

So like my like obsession with music and just
performing.
Luckily I was able to figureout I really love this Super
early on, before it was like, doyou want to make it a career,
you know?
Do you want to write, do youwant to do all this stuff?
I found everything very likethere's a lot of ownership,

(25:38):
especially because my parentsweren't musical right and I got
to be fair, you know, I playedaccordion.
My mom decided one year thatshe was going to take guitar
lessons and, granted, she wasworking like two, three jobs,
like almost my entire childhood.
She was a teacher and she woulddo so many other things.
So one summer she decided totake guitar lessons and every
night she would come home andshe would teach me the chord

(25:58):
that she learned in lesson andso I had all day the next day to
learn it and play it and messaround with it and apply it to
different songs.
That I knew that whatever.
And you know, after those twoweeks she just never touched the
guitar again really and I justkind of kept going.
So she likes to take credit forteaching me guitar and I have to
give her credit for teaching meguitar, even though she's never

(26:19):
touched it since.
But total credit, so yeah.
So then it just kind of was Ijust wanted every, so okay.
So then it was studio stuff.
Right, we started going intothe studio when I was like seven
, eight, was obsessed with thestudio process.
So how did you get?
invited to the studio, we savedup there was a studio, I guess

(26:43):
in a town close to mine, and Ihad like been in studios and
recorded with like other bandsand stuff, and I think my mom
and dad decided, all right, weshould make an album for him and
, like, I wrote two songs thatmake no sense and I'm not gonna
say what the name is.
I don't want people to Googlethem not that they would, but
Was so.

(27:03):
They're actually out.
Oh, they're out.
They exist in the world.
Well, let's go.
Wait and you were seven.
Thanks a lot.
Internet yes.

Yeah, dude, okay , crazy.
I don't know a single otherseven-year-old that was in the
studio recording their own songs.

Oh, there's that incredible.
There's a bunch on TikTok.
I don't know if you've seenthem lately.

I have.
There's a ton of them.
It is a little different, likethat kid.
Well, no, honestly I look atGod.

I forget what's that kid's name on TikTok.

Miles Miles.

I look at Miles and I'm like man, we would have
been best friends at that age,cause, like that is what that
was me.
I just like loved.
I'm not comparing myself by anymeans.
He's insanely talented, but hisspirit and his love for his
seemingly his love for what he'sdoing reminds me a lot of just
like my obsession.
Like as soon as I left thestudio I wanted you know the

(27:49):
first time I found out there wasa thing called an inbox and you
could buy a Pro Tools rig for500 bucks.
You know, I was a weddingvideographer in middle school,
paying for my Pro Tools rig.
Like I got a habit.
Dude, what a hustler.
It was so much fun, man, and Ilove that little thing.
And then it, you know, moved onto the M audio Like.
So what I'm saying is I, when Ifell in love with the studio

(28:12):
and the process, I got a littleseven track task cam for
Christmas and I never left myroom.
So then the circle was completebecause I could create, I could
record, and then I could goplay it, and then I could create
and record and play.
So that became like okay, thisis my life's work, this is my
purpose, this is what I want todo.
This is all I want to do.

And it's what year did you find or did you get
the task?
Cam, cause this is like the.
This year set the course of therest of your life.
What, how old were you?

I remember I was like 10 or 11, maybe 11?
, 11, 12?

11, recording your own tracks, and you knew
for the rest of your life youwere going to be Playing
keyboard drums too.

Man Couldn't, didn't know how to mic them up,
you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah Loved it.
That's incredible.
It's hard for me to believe inluck.
I know that there's a lot ofpeople that believe in luck and
sometimes I flirt with the ideaof it.
I don't know how to explainthat you, from that young of an
age other than you, weresubjected to amazing music

(29:19):
Because you lived in such agreat hometown for live music,
you just Immediately resonatedwith it.
I don't, I wouldn't call itluck, I don't, I don't know what
to call that, but you, fromsuch a young age, already
resonated with music.

I don't believe in luck, in the in the Like, if if
it's explained as like it justhappened, I don't believe it.
Mm-hmm, I absolutely believethat we put ourselves on paths
and we say yes to opportunity.
We prepare, like.
There's a lot of different waysto explain what some people
would explain.
I think sometimes people useluck as a way of saying I when

(29:57):
it, when.
What really should be said isand I have no idea how they got
there, you know, but there'salways a backstory and there's
always, even if it's not verywell known or very well
documented, there's always abackstory.
That's my personal belief.
Not imposing that on anybody,but that's just what I've seen.
So, yeah, like I think what wasI getting to?

(30:20):
A few different thoughts thatcame up when you said that, but
I Know that I was well.
Yeah, I was the people I wasmost influenced by, whether it
was the people I was jammingwith or the people that I played
with right as me as the frontkid.
All had day jobs.
This wasn't a life.

(30:41):
This was a life for them, notlike a living.
Yeah, this was something they.
That doesn't make any sense,but my point is like they would
work all day, that would comehome, they would load their car,
then they would go play musicand it was even more works in
the work.
They'd put it all day but theycould not live without it and
granted like it was extra incomein it in an area where, you

(31:03):
know, there wasn't a lot ofmoney to be made.
So in some cases it was anecessity, but they had found a
way to match necessity withtheir passion and like, just
fuel this, like great energy ina room and and it was also kind
of I you know, I felt like itwas.
It was really rewarding becauseyou're you see people dancing

(31:23):
and you know you're doing yourjob, but you're small on your
face, makes you feel good and itgives you the energy, honestly,
to wake up the next day and doit again.
Right, so that's my, that wasmy understanding.
That's my understanding now.
I can't say that was myunderstanding then, but I Was.
I was really lucky to be aroundpeople who did it because they
loved it, not because it wastheir living.
You know it wasn't a business.

(31:44):
They didn't treat it like abusiness.
You know they did it becausethey loved it and there was
their passion.

Yeah, that's definitely the the area that you
grew up in, because you could.
If you were out here, I'd be alittle bit different, yeah, but
there it was just strictlyPassion yeah, passion.
Yeah, being around that fromsuch a young age you got your
10,000 hours before you canprobably even remember With
people who were just sopassionate about this, yeah,
that that passion rubbed off onyou and For sure made you want

(32:15):
to do this.
Because you saw how happy theywere, I'm guessing absolutely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah passion first, it just it wasn't
.
It wasn't a hustle, you know,it wasn't about the first
million, it wasn't about, youknow.
I mean all those things I thinkwe hear a lot about when we
start, or at least when I talkto people who are getting into
the industry.
You know there's a lot of thosesort of like metrics and those
measurements that I was neversubjected to, absolutely as a

(32:42):
seven-year yeah for the for thelisteners, I, I.

This is another thing that I have found with all
the people that I talked to whohave made it to a certain point
in a music career that, again,like most the world would say,
is successful.
Every single one of themstarted in music as a hobby
Because they loved it and theyjust wanted to be a part of
whatever it was.

(33:07):
The Moment they started itwasn't like one day I'm gonna be
rich or famous or this or thatit's.
I can't live without this thing.
Mm-hmm, I love this and I'mjust gonna do it whatever it is.
Yeah, until it gets me to apoint.
But they don't even think aboutthat point.
It's just like I can't livewithout this.

No, yeah, yeah, totally agree with that.
I've seen, yeah, a very similarof that.
Yeah, I totally agree.

Yeah, so okay.
So if we're 11 now, hmm, ifwe're inching forward, let's not
even talk about school life,because I bet you didn't give a
damn, you were just like itchingto be was with music, dying to
get out, made friends of thefamily band that like was home
school.

And I was like, please.
And my parents were like, no,we're not pulling you out of
school.
Not nothing against homeschool,but just.
They were like no, you needStructure, you need Consistency,
you need normality, because noother part of your life is going
to be normal.
Wow.

What an insight, yeah.
So why is yeah, honestlylooking back, they already knew
that you were going to besomething and they were just
like in his formative years.
We need to put some structurehere.
Yeah, I don't some things very,a very subjective term as to
what they thought my futurewould look like, and not that
they didn't believe in me, but IThink they just didn't know
what to expect, you know, yeahwhich, which makes sense because

(34:32):
, like, if they're not in theindustry, it's really hard for
anybody to fathom who's not inthe industry what that
Trajectory looks like, and Ithink a lot of us are still
trying to figure out what thatis.

Yeah, I mean serious risk of a tough tan side
tangent here.
But To the point of why we'rehaving this conversation, this
is one of the industries many ofthem exists and this is one of
the Best examples of there is noframework, there's no road path

(35:03):
, no set the destination in themaps and follow.
You know, I mean, you have tofigure it out on your own, you
know.
So, yeah, it was.
I'm sure it was terrifying forthem, but but yeah, I couldn't
give a shit about school.

Yeah, I mean, that makes sense, because you
were so passionate about an artand art doesn't have a form.
School has a form.
Mm-hmm, artists don't reallylike being put into a form, so I
that totally makes sense to me.
But Now let's move forward alittle bit.
I'm guess.
Well, I know that you did, butI don't know what year.

(35:36):
I'm guessing Not that longafter you were discovered.
When was the first Record dealthat you made?
Or really, like, what was thefirst big stepping stone for you
After recording some of yourown songs?

It was a series of small ones.
So, like my, let's say, I don'tknow if you'd call it a career
between 12 and 18, but like mymusical journey, if you will,
that's a also kind of aprodigious way to put it.
But my path was say yes toanything, say yes to everything,
show up for everything, say yesto anything, show up for

(36:12):
everything Damn, let's brandthat.
Say yes to anything, show upeverything.
So, but truthfully, that wasthe, that was the, the spirit
take every gig, take everyopportunity, jump on stage every
chance you get.
And it's not like to show off,it's, it's, I think it's because
my parents knew that that'swhere my, that's where I got to
just be and, like, looking back,like there's a lot of therapy

(36:35):
around, like I was doing and I'mlearning how to just be, but at
the same time, being on stageis the most like in my spirit, I
feel.
And so I think it was just kindof an obvious, like
subconscious decision of anychance he gets to be in a place
where he can just be free and dowhat he does.

(36:55):
Yeah, like, let's, let's try togive him that opportunity.
So we chased a bunch of stuffand we said yes to everybody and
and played every gig we couldand, and so it was a series of
you know.
So you know you could go back.
I mean you could go back so far.
But like there's guitar playerthat was part of the band that

(37:16):
was signed in Nashville, knewsome record executives.
He got a demo From me, he gotfour demos from me because I
wanted him to play in my bandfor some shows, he called my dad
.
He said listen, I got to sendthis to.
I really want to send this tothe executive that I know he's
got to hear this.
My dad was like sure, send it.
At the same time, or like kindof simultaneously, I had music

(37:39):
on my space and I had a messagefrom Cindy form and at Universal
Music Group publishing, whosaid is it true that you're
writing all of these songsyourself?
Is it true that you're playingall these songs yourself?
I'd love to meet with you.
I thought it was fake, neverresponded.
One month later she sent meanother message on my space and
we took it seriously in the nexttrip.
We were taking like routinetrips to Nashville, like once
every month, every other month,for like a weekend and just

(38:01):
meeting with anybody we could.
So all these things startedkind of converging on.
And oh, by the way, and my, mypublisher found me via a video
that popped up on YouTube of Me.
Like this video at the time,like right at the beginning of
YouTube, had, like I think, 11million hit.
You know Whatever plays of meplaying with Hank Williams

(38:22):
junior when I was five years old, so like all the saying, yes,
right, still catching up, right,I was 12, 14, now 16, 14, 14,
16, whatever, 16, and she that'swhen she messaged me.
And at the same time, you know,my guitar player, buddy Tony
arduan, was part, you know,given my music to a music

(38:42):
executive saying you got to hearthis, and so then the music
executive calls and we startkind of starting conversation,
and then I Found an attorney andand the attorney kind of became
like my music row dad or uncle,if you will.

Oh, and for those listening and watching
music row.
Yeah really relates to a streetthat has all of the publishers
in Nashville on it and I meanyou can tell a little bit more
if you want about that.
But I'm guessing some listenersdon't know.
Music row most succinct way butyeah, yeah no, it's like sorry,
yeah, so it's common.

It's like a really often tossed around term in in
Nashville for, like the streetthat the industry used to
primarily exist on, yeah, youcould literally walk door to
door and just go into thesehouses that were also Labels,
whether they be majors orindependence.
Like that's kind of music rowis the origin of a lot of the
Nashville music industry.
Not not so much anymore, butBarry Hill seems to very hill.

(39:39):
Also, east Nashville like a tonof stuff happened, Like it's
kind of all over.
There's a ton of stuff inGermantown and like the nations,
there's a ton of areas that arethat are really popping off
music industry wise.
So yeah, so it all kind of youknow again, just like multiple
sort of steps, kind of came outof nowhere.
So you just kind of keep likesaying yes and and taking, you

(40:00):
know, meetings and playing forpeople.
And my first offer for was fromUniversal.
I had moved to Nashville.
Mom and dad and I were alllooking for houses in Nashville
and it was really tough for myparents leave their job my mom's
a school teacher, my dad areally consistent job, so that
was 1415 at the time and wedecided, okay, we've got to move

(40:21):
to Nashville.
I was.
It was when I was a junior inhigh school that we went to
Nashville.
I had the publishing offer inhand and I Think that was kind
of like my parents way of saying, okay, there is a path.
That is the first step on whatwe can recognize as a structured

(40:41):
path.

So now, what do we do?
Yeah, there's a tangible thingthat we can actually like, see.

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense and feel and feel so
Started.
I went to this school and theguidance counselor presented me
with an opportunity to graduateearly If I would write a letter
to the superintendent saying,hey, I'm going into songwriting,
which I did, and Got approved,took an accelerated course over

(41:11):
the course of that summer andthen went straight into
full-time songwriting.
I knew I was writing for myself, right, but yeah, that's when
it kind of started.
And then at the same time, thelabel started kind of talking
and, yeah, just started kind ofdeveloping the, the music, and I
think that, well, that was whenI moved to Nashville and sort
of planted roots there.

Yeah, that's incredible.
I I really really want tohighlight for anybody watching
and listening this to this Justsaying yes to as many
opportunities that come your wayas possible Seems to also be an
underlying theme.
Except and I'm sure that you'llresonate with this is that if,
in your gut, you feel like thisis not a good thing To say yes

(41:54):
to, you will feel wheneversomething does not feel right.
I would definitely say Trustyour gut and avoid that, yeah,
but if you're just like nervous,scared, fearful, say yes you
just never know who you're gonnameet, where that's gonna go and
, like you said, there's no waythat your five-year-old self

(42:15):
knew playing for Hank WilliamsJr Was going to lead to A
publishing deal, right.
But I can totally see thatbecause of the music that he
plays, and I can see that youwould have played with him.
I mean, he's playing a lot ofCajun influenced music, I mean
Louisiana style Crazy, coolmusic and I'm sure that.

I'm sure that was awesome, but okay so Sorry to
your point, because I 100% agreewith you, because I yes that
you can say, say yes toeverything and you have to Sort
of like help.
I like to encourage people whoare like just starting to
exercise that To trust their gutright and it's kind of like, if
it doesn't feel like anopportunity, you know, if your

(42:56):
gut feels not good about fearnerves are all part of
opportunity there's a differentfeeling that you get and it's a
gut instinct when somethingdoesn't feel right and
absolutely listen to that.
Yeah and yeah.
Yeah, there's a because alsothere's a.
I feel, in my experience atleast, that Saying not now is

(43:16):
also a valid way to say no,because if it's right, it'll
come back around, oh, or it'llcome from the right person.
So it's okay to say you knowwhat, not now.

I actually love that.
Yeah, that's a great way ofdoing that, not now.
Yeah it's not a no, it's just anot now.
Yeah and maybe it totally is ano, but it's an easier way.

It gives you a chance to sit on the sidelines
and watch for a second.
Yeah, and also, if it's notright, it becomes very apparent
and, and as it keeps going, itmakes itself known, or it gives
you an opportunity to go backlater and say, hey, I'm ready.
Yeah, let's go.
You know that's.
That's actually very wise, yeah, I don't know, just for what
it's worth.

That's, that's great.
So tell me some about, like,whenever you sign your your
first major deal, like, whatdoes the world look like?
And and I really want people onthe other side of this to to
understand what what it lookslike from Just, I guess,
creating your own music to nowyou have a whole team, you have

(44:15):
those Excel spreadsheets in 18people in a room and what?
Hmm, how can they see throughyour lens what that looks like?

Yeah well, I mean, there's a lot of I don't know
anything, and these people mustknow what they're doing that you
have to kind of navigate andfigure out when to step in and
when to you know when to listenand when to trust and when to
trust yourself.
That's all neither here northere.

(44:45):
When you're in that, whenyou're in that, like walking
through the record label doorfor the first time, um, but it
just felt like everything wentin.
It felt like, you know, I hadbeen preparing for race day and
then it felt like everybody wasgetting in the cars and it was
time to get in the car.
And you know, when I officiallysigned I think I was officially

(45:08):
I was 18, but it was we alsonegotiated for a year.
I can't tell you how manyconversations I had with one
specific person who was like youshould really just sign me on
the economy, cause you know itwas trying to whole real estate
crash and all that stuff.
Like you should just signwhatever you can.
There's a thousand peoplemoving to Nashville today and

(45:28):
they're just as talented andit's like, and all those things
are true, but that's not areason to rush and that's a talk
about a not now.
You know I had to trust the oneperson who was negotiating on my
behalf, saying, listen, you'retalented enough.
Well, we need to make sure youget a deal that's good for you,
and if it takes a second, ittakes a second.
And also like I had met with acouple of different labels who

(45:52):
like didn't get it because Iwasn't easily defined as one
thing, right, like I wasn'teasily defined as country, I
wasn't easily defined as pop, Iwasn't easily defined as
anything.
So that took a second and I hadto trust the process.
And then it finally kind ofcame through and it was actually
a surprise.
My attorney asked me to go tothe office and it's so funny,
looking back, because he usedthe same.

(46:13):
It's so valid of a reason forme to go to the office and sign
papers that it's still a thingthat happens every three months.
Now he's like, hey, I got sometrademark paperwork for you to
sign when you come to the office, and that's.
I remember like banging on thedoor, mad in my room, because I
was like why don't I have a deal?
Yet I watched a lot of friendsaround me and I was comparing

(46:34):
and I was in this reallyunhealthy place and I was like
why don't.
I have a deal which is absurdand, at the same time, like this
is something I'd wanted since Iwas, you know, five years old.
So, and short enough, I went tothe office and I was signing my
record deal, like he was likewe got everything we wanted,
we're in a good place and you'rewell protected and we're in.
You know, everybody feels goodabout this, not just us but the

(46:55):
label, everybody.
It was really.
It felt good.
And I got to go home andsurprise dad for father's day
Like hey, signed it, so, yeah,so that's just felt like race
day.
Then it was like, okay, what arethe songs we have for the album
?
Do we have the first single?
Do we have the you know secondsingle, third single, et cetera.
And I just was still writing,writing, writing, writing.

(47:17):
I had wanted, which was we allfelt like a really powerful, the
label really believed in it aslike a big single, and, of
course, this is all hearsay.
At this point it's just like,well, okay, well, you know,
whatever we'll see.
And, and you know, I rememberhaving a conversation with
somebody who was like listen,one is going to be the biggest
song off the record, but we gotto.

(47:37):
We can't start with that.
We got to start with somethingelse, kept writing and
eventually I played StormWarning, which was my first
single, and I played it for mymanagement, like before a
meeting that we were going infor like wardrobe and styling
and they like for me it was justlike it was a perfect
combination of like a lot ofinfluences that I love, but I

(47:59):
felt like it was too nerdy, youknow, musically I was like I
don't know that, this is likethe big radio hit you're looking
for.
And they were like this is thebig radio hit we're looking for.
And I was like, well, hot damn,I don't know anything.
And so they loved it.
And then it was like, okay, wegot the first single, we got the
second single, let's go.
Cause we also had another songcalled somebody's heartbreak,
which we all felt like was asingle at some point.
We had a song called Love MakesMe, we had a song called Faith,

(48:20):
we had a song calledeverybody's got somebody but me,
and there were all songs wefelt like could be singles, we
could pivot anytime, et cetera,cause, like in the country you
know, when you talk about asingle, like you're talking
about 52 weeks to get a song tonumber one.
You know it's not a quickprocess.
So by the time you know we gota song to number one, it was
probably time to move on to thenext record.
You know, I really wanted fivesingles off the first record and

(48:43):
I will say we did get that.
So rock on, yeah, but that'shuge.
I was really.
I was really excited.
Looking back, I'm really proudof that.
But anyway, so it was just likeyou know I, you know my manager
at the time, said you know, isthere a producer?
Have you looked at producers?
Do you know what a producerdoes?
You know, do you have you?

(49:03):
And I was like Dan Huff.
Yeah, dan Huff, talk aboutdreaming big and really shooting
for the stars.
I was like I want to work withDan Huff and so I met with him.
He was very gracious, very kindand very in from the first
meeting.
He was in a hurry to go to hisprayer group so I didn't get to
play my third song for him.
But he was like I'm here, I'dlove to sit with you, and so he

(49:25):
would come back to the studiothat I was working in and just
sit and listen, and I would gomeet him at his house I'd play
him new stuff and I gave him acouple of different references
you know, for like he was likewhat are you, what are you
loving right now, what excitesyou?
And you know, let me listen tothat and digest it.
And I believe it was ThieviaLaVita.

(49:46):
He had made a record withRascal Flats, called Me and my
Gang, which to me, looking backnow kind of felt like a really
cool country alternative recordwhen you really have you ever
heard that record?
I have.
Yep, that whole album is reallyfascinating to study.
And like he'd worked on theKeith Urban stuff like the
Golden Hour or Golden Hour, Ithink it was Golden Road.

(50:11):
He worked on Golden Road, whichI thought was one of the
greatest, and he had justfinished Defying Gravity, which
in my opinion is like myfavorite Keith Urban album ever
made, and I gave him, I think,mercy Me Coming Up to Breathe,
thievia LaVita and I probablygave him Continua.
So that was kind of ourstarting of the relationship.

(50:34):
And they booked a studio.
They wanted me to go in andmake the record.
They wanted to see if we couldmake an album like I made my
demos, which is me DIY figuredout.
So it was just Dan and me and Ibrought up a bunch of friends
from Louisiana that I had workedwith, that had given me the
keys to their studios, that knewhow to tweak drums and get
sounds or like help me with thisand that.

(50:55):
So I was kind of surrounded bysome friends and I asked for a
place outside of town.
So we found this place calledthe Castle, which is where they
had just finished working onDefying Gravity, and it had this
insanely gorgeous stone drumroom and, oh my God, it's still
the best sounding drum room I'veever had the pleasure of

(51:16):
working in.
Oh yeah, and I even got to usesome of the drums from Defying
Gravity.
Chris McHugh is still a friendand a really cool mentor, but we
had kind of like a lot ofmutual relationships and he came
by and dropped off like a SteveJordan snare and like one of
his snares that he had used onDefying.

(51:37):
So like it was just the dream.
We set up at the Castle forlike three months, which was
unheard of, but again, like itwas just me and Dan Huff and we
worked every day, five days aweek, every week, nonstop, for
three months at the Castle andthen we moved into Dan's house
and we worked for another fourmonths same way, my gosh yeah.

What a labor of love.

for sure my relationship with making an
album is it should take at leasta year Of like nonstop work
With one of the best producersof all time.
Yeah, absolutely, that's partof it, and I learned a lot from
him in that process.
So it was just we started withfive songs, the label came in
four, and the label came in andlistened to kind of the roughs
of the first four and they werelike, okay, this process works,

(52:20):
keep going.
You know, go make eight more.

And so we did that's that was the baby record
that is.
I'm sure that people lovedhearing that I did.
I mean that's awesome.
Dan is incredible.
I never have met him and then Iassisted on a Keith Urban
record, which he definitelyproduced.
Just he's incredible.
I have seen his guitar wheneverhe's in the studio.

(52:45):
It's just like like literallyevery amp, every guitar,
everything it just comes in andit I know raw, it's just perfect
sounding.
I mean he's incredible.

Yeah.

I'm sure that was an awesome experience.
So I wanna I know that forthose listening you guys have an
awesome dinner tonight and Iwanna make sure we get some cool
little nuggets in here.
So, yeah, let's go and talkabout for people listening who
are artists.
I would love for them to knowthe differences through your

(53:22):
eyes and maybe which one youshould go with, depending on
your mindset of a major or indieand kind of your relationship
with both.

Man, there are so many.
I know this is not helpful, asif you, for all of you creatives
listening everyone, by the way,is a creative, and I'm
specifically thinking of artistsif I were to put myself in your
shoes, getting into thebusiness, asking this question,
there's a lot of questions and Ijust encourage you.

(54:01):
One of my favorite things aboutmy co-pilot manager is the is I
was.
I think I was always afraid toask questions, and that is the
most powerful thing you can giveyourself is asking questions.
If someone thinks that yourquestion is dumb, or if they

(54:23):
judge you based on your question, fuck that.
You do not need to work withthem.
They're not an empoweringperson for you to be around.
There's your answer.
Don't work with that person Ifyou have to make the best of the
relationship, but know thatthey're not gonna add value to
you moving forward.
They're just there to staystill.
You are there to grow.

(54:44):
They're whatever.
So, first off, ask as manyquestions as you can.
The smartest people in the roomask all of the questions.
The smartest people in the roomknow nothing when they walk in
the room and have the mindset ofI know nothing when I walk in
the room.
That's who I'm really inspiredby and I've tried to implement

(55:04):
that.
I've tried to teach myself thatand be better at asking the
questions that I feel like Ishould probably already know
about, because it's also alwayschanging.
And I can't tell you how manytimes I've talked to somebody
who I thought knew everythingand I walk away from the
conversation and I'm like theydon't know anything either.
And I don't mean that in acondescending way, I just mean

(55:25):
like they're figuring this outin real time, just like I am.
They've just been doing it longenough and they're more
comfortable doing that.
Maybe they know the questionsto ask.
Yeah, maybe, or maybe they'rejust asking questions when I'm
not you know.
Yeah, exactly.
So I guess I say all thatbecause it massively depends on
what you want for the season.

(55:45):
You know this is anoversimplification and that's
what I don't want to.
Like set this as like thestandard of the tone or this is
the answer.
Resources, right, like biggercompanies have bigger resources.
So you know, if you're talkingto a label, if their resources

(56:09):
like they've got a kick ass inour department, that like
secretly helps developbrilliance in you, they see you,
they get you and they're thereto go on the ride, like that's a
resource in and of itself.
You know they might not provideall the other resources you
think they will as well as that,but that is valuable.

(56:31):
So that's something to measureand weigh.
And then there's just financiallike do are they gonna put a
lot of money behind making surethat I get in the right rooms
with the right people, you know,and give me the opportunity to
work with the people who aremore expensive, you know those
kind of things?
Or marketing department man youknow they're completely
detached from making the musicbut they're really good at

(56:52):
marketing it.
That's worth it.
So I think you kind of have tojust like determine what
currencies are worth what foryou and the season that you're
in, because there'll be someseasons, right and I'm saying
this, I'm not saying this as ifeveryone listening doesn't
already understand this and knowthis, but I do think that I
mean what I've seen is there'ssome seasons where you're fine,

(57:14):
like you're surrounded by peoplewho you just love working with
and that is all that matters.
You're gonna make great musicand people are gonna connect
with it.
It's a slow growth, but it's areal growth, right.
And there'll be some seasonswhere you're like no, I'm ready
for the rocket fuel, let'sfucking go.
And then it's worth.
You know, looking for the teamyou just and it goes back to.
I mean, I've never been like agreat business person, but I do

(57:35):
think it's just like the simpleanswers, like you know, the
whole, like hire to yourweakness, you know.
I think it's just looking forthat.
What am I missing?
What do I need the most?

Yeah.

Right now, you know.

That's a great question to ask yourself.

That's, I think, the only thing that really
matters.
You know always like you'llexperience all kinds of versions
of success.
You know, again, definingsuccess differently every season
, and that's the, to me, that'sthe simplest way to boil it down
what do I re, what am I missingright now, and how do I get it?
You know, not just money, liketry to.

(58:08):
You know, anytime money comesup as first, like well, it'd be
great to have a bunch of cash,of course, yes.
And what would it look like ifyou had all the cash?
What would you do first?
Who would you hire first?
What department would you build?
If you could build anything?
Okay, let's go find a placethat has that kind of department
and see if you can, if theyspeak your language and if they

(58:29):
get you.
You know those kinds of things.
Does that answer any of thequestions at all?
Absolutely.

What I mean.
Such a great answer.
I feel like that just educatedsomebody, listening on maybe
some questions that they didn'tknow that they needed to ask.
I think that that does completethe puzzle a little, because an
indie artist who's releasingtoday if they're doing really
well, like I can think of acouple in my head they're
streaming well and they'reself-funded, they're indie.

(58:57):
Maybe you don't need to changewhat you're doing, just keep
going, unless your idea of whereyou wanna be is just too
astronomically different becauseyou need the funds to market it
properly.
Getting on radio is veryimpossible, if not impossible,
if you're indie.

(59:17):
It takes a lot.
And so if that's like the goal,you know, that's maybe
something you need to explore.
But if you're really kickingass and you're able to sell out
shows and smaller venues and youlove that, maybe don't break
what's working.

And again, like I hope none of anything I say
sounds pretentious at all, butthe conversation I love having
with artists when they're like Ireally just want that big radio
song, I just wanna go to radioand have number one.
My question is and what do youwant that to become?
What do you want out of that?
Because I've seen a lot ofpeople who have number ones and

(59:56):
it doesn't automatically lead tohard tickets.
And if you're passionate is Iwanna play as many shows a year,
which is mine then you need tostart asking the questions
either to the team you have orto the team you're trying to
build of.
Okay, if we're gonna go and geta number one, how do we turn
that into me playing in front of5,000 people within a year,

(01:00:18):
right?
Or maybe you wanna go slower.
Worth it to consider how fastyou wanna get there too, because
then you're determining whatkind of engagement you wanna
build with the people who listento your music.
Do you want them to be excitedabout a song right now and
forget about it, or do you wantthem to follow along with you
and then be excited with youwhen you do have that big?
There's so much to consider andthe only thing that really

(01:00:41):
matters is what do you want atthe?
What's the picture?
If you could draw the dreampicture of where you wanna be,
what does it look like?
You know, well, I love playingin front of, at least you know.
Maybe you've played in front ofa theater or maybe you have
never played in front of anarena, but you feel like that's
like your ultimate goal, okay,well then, we need to build an
arena career, which there's alot more to consider than just

(01:01:03):
when.
Do we take a song to radio?
Do we want it to be number one?
You gotta consider timing, likeyou gotta make sure you're
opening for the right people, tomake sure that you're not just
opening for as many people aspossible, but you're singing
songs to people who are gonna goback and listen to that song
after you leave.
Absolutely, you know and likewhat is the artist that aligns
with your purpose and yourvalues, and you know all those

(01:01:26):
things are worth considering.
So there's so much to considerand, at the end of the day, it
really like it's.
You know you challenge yourself.
You know the same thing withmoney, right?
The same thing with all thethings that seem like the
accolades.
You want, I wanna, you know,you know, I think we all want
the accolades, the awards andthings like that.
But what do you want that tomean?
You know, what do you want thenumber one radio to mean?

(01:01:46):
What do you want that kick assopening slot to mean?
Well, it means that thosepeople are gonna come and see me
at a smaller venue in the falland they're gonna continue to
see me because they're, you knowthey're and that's one of the
reasons that I really lovedcountry was because it wasn't
about a single or an album, itwas about a human.

(01:02:06):
To what you said earlier, whichI really appreciate you saying,
those are the questions you needto you know, because once you
can see it in your head, likebelieve in manifesting or not,
I'm here to tell you it's a realthing.
Like my screensaver was tourbuses.
I, when I moved to Nashville, Iwent on Google Earth and I

(01:02:28):
found every arena in the country, a Wikipedia, what the end
stage capacity was, and I mademy own routing and I built my
own arena tour and I would in mymind every night, would you
know, either practice music oryou know whatever.
I can't remember exactly how Idid it, but I would look at
pictures of those arenas and Iwould look at tour buses on my

(01:02:51):
screensaver and I would justlike, if you can, if you can, if
you can build yourself apicture of what brings you joy
and what brings you happiness,that'll give you every answer.
As far as for when people askyou, what do you want, you know
it's not just this achievement,but it's going to mean that I
get to do this.
You know, dude, yeah.

Austin Seltzer (01:03:12):
Holy crap, that was just so beautiful, so wise,
damn.
Thank you.
I mean the whole podcast wasjust to get what you just gave.
I really hope and I know there'sno way that it won't somebody
listening if they could justtake about one thing from this

(01:03:33):
podcast.
It's that, ultimately, the onlything that you need to do is
figure out where you want to beone day and envision it so
deeply you know exactly what itis and then figure out the game
plan to that point.
If you don't know exactly whereyou want to be, it's very
difficult to make the rightmoves.

(01:03:54):
Because, like you said early on, I actually think one of the
most beautiful and useful thingsabout country radio is how long
it takes to get a number one.
The 52 week cycle allows a songto be cemented into somebody's
mind for a very long time, sothat it's a part, like a fabric,

(01:04:16):
of an entire year of their lifebefore it gets to number one,
so that that song really deeplymeans something to you, as
opposed to a TikTok hit that'sgone in 15 seconds.

Hunter Hayes (01:04:31):
It tests the listener's relationship with the
material, and the longer itstays, the more it means
something to the personlistening to it.
Yeah, for sure I agree withthat.

But then you can like manufacture your whole
career around if you want to beplaying stadium shows.
It's not something that isgoing to be a pop off on TikTok.
It's going to be something thathas to be the fabric of
somebody's being.
Like they relate a moment tosomething, a song of yours, for

(01:05:06):
a long time and then it is.
You can manufacture a tour thatyou want to be on.
That perfectly gets you to thatpoint.
You don't go with maybe a viralTikTok person.
You go with somebody that hasmaybe a smaller crowd, but
they've been doing this for solong that those fans are deep
rooted in that artist and so,because they love that artist,

(01:05:28):
now you're going on tour withthem and now they associate you
with an artist that they love,as opposed to a TikTok hit,
which I'm not dissing on.
I love TikTok for many things,but it's just a different tool.

The same thing is like a radio hit, like you can
have a massive radio hit andquickly and mishandle it right.
Like the same thing you can do,like these are all
opportunities, they're all thesediscovery platforms and you can
misuse it and you can.
It can be a channel as long asyou know.
Yeah, again, like it's, youknow what your destination is

(01:06:02):
and you have to pay that, onestep at a time.

Yeah, dude, that was the nugget that everybody
in the world, I think, needs,who's a creative, not just in
music.
I think that that just goesacross all creative fields where
you want to be somewhere oneday, just setting that intention
, that goal.
And we talk on this podcast alot about manifestation.
I'm very, very deep into it.

(01:06:27):
I mean, this room was once avision in my head and the
podcast was.
For over five years.
I've wanted a podcast, but Ineeded to raise my platform
mixing and mastering wise towhere I could reach out to
awesome guests, where I can havethese cool conversations, and I
needed to feel cemented enoughwith, like financially, where I

(01:06:52):
could dive into something else.
So all these things had tohappen.
But this room, this podcast,this everything was an idea in
my head, as was touring andplaying arenas for you.

Mm yeah.

My arena might be a little smaller and you know
a little different.

Well, that's a really that's what would you
bring up?
A really interesting and sayingsmaller like.
I think we're all guilty ofsaying like of comparison, you
know, and we like say comparisonis the thief of joy, that's
great, but your dream is no oneelse's and you've got to stay.
And that's another thing thathaving that like really doing
the work of focusing on yourvision is really valuable

(01:07:31):
because it'll always be the mostimportant thing and you'll
never have to compare it toanybody else's because, like now
, these things are moreimportant to me.
You know, kind of to your pointearlier of like happiness,
sustainability, you know thatpicture is all that matters.
So you can look at somebodyelse's career and say I mean,
yeah, am I jealous that they'redoing this venue right now?
Yeah, but like, would I want tohave it that quick?

(01:07:53):
And like, because maybe I'mscared of losing that audience
If I don't do the exact samething again.
You know there's so many thingsto consider when you, you know,
when you yeah, just nevercompare your vision with anybody
else's, because no one else hasthe same vision you have.

Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, dude, thank you so muchfor coming here today.
I know that you're only in LAfor a couple of days and somehow
you were able to Just here forthis man.
This is the filming.

This is the filming.

yeah, you got that on film right, I think.
So we're still rolling, we'restill rolling.

You know what I'm saying.

Yeah, dude, really the whole podcast coming
to that point.
That I really think is somonumental for so many people
who are asking I want to do this, but how do I do it.
I think the first step issetting that intention and that

(01:08:50):
very vivid image of where youwant to be and then carving out
a plan to get there.
And that's to hear it from you.
The way that you said it, Ithink it was the whole point of
this podcast.
So thanks for dropping that.
And if you want to leave us outon what did you write on the
chalkboard?

You can't read my handwriting, can you?
Well, it's just it's sointeresting.

You were the greatest storyteller, yeah, so
wrap us up with this.

Yeah, I'll say more about this sort of as I
continue to tell my own story.
There's a lot of really greatresources that explain the
stories we tell ourselves.
Right, and that's like this iskind of getting into a therapy

(01:09:37):
conversation.
But I believe that whatever youbelieve, you exude, you know,
and the story you tell yourselfabout yourself is the story
you're going to tell the worldabout yourself.
And that's with your bodylanguage when you walk into a
room, your language as you talkabout your art.
You walk into a party andyou're not feeling so great

(01:09:59):
about yourself.
That's how you're going to,that's how people are going to
perceive you.
That's the story you're goingto tell them about yourself.
And I'm not hard line, notsaying make up a fake story.
Go be a fake person.
Go tell the people howimportant you are, go tell
people how great you are.
I'm saying give yourself thespace you need to understand why

(01:10:20):
what you're doing matters toyou.
Because it does.
You're doing it because itmatters.
So have your relationship withthat and just know your story.
I am a nerd, I am a wallflowerthat makes music for wallflowers
.
That's why the song wallfloweris like my favorite song on the
album, even though it's the,it's kind of a secret track that
we don't talk about a lot andit changes, right.

(01:10:43):
It changes for me seasonally,some seasons, like I think Rose
is a version of that.
But I just I really do believethat there's so many people
there's a very close friend thatcomes to mind that I don't know
if it was like conditioningthat made them feel like, oh

(01:11:04):
well, you're on a level and Igot to get to that level and
it's all just levels and it'slike no dude, like you're
brilliant and and it doesn'tmatter how much time you spend a
town, it doesn't matter howmuch work you've done, it
doesn't matter I, because I saya lot, like you know, I did a
lot of things on this recordthat I wasn't qualified to do.
But it doesn't matter if you'requalified, it only matters if
you care, right.

(01:11:24):
And so, getting back to myoriginal point, you know,
knowing that you know for forother people to understand, like
you have to know it's honestlyeverything we've said.
It's the.
You know, know the thing youwant, know your purpose and your
passion and your purpose andthe picture that you want to
make for yourself or make withthe gifts that you have and the

(01:11:46):
light that you have to bring tothe world, and that is your
story.
So go tell that story and letthat be your story, because
everyone is the most, everyoneis their own best storyteller.
You are the only person who cantell your story.
So know it and tell it, andknow that it's true, and and and
believe in it, and believe inyourself, and and be good to

(01:12:09):
yourself and treat yourself likethe person in the story that
you're telling.

I love that.
I think that that's it, dude.

Thank you so much for coming on, and thanks for
having me, man, thanks formaking time on a day off.
Really kind of you.

Thanks for making time on your three days
here Absolutely All right.
So now that you've listened tothis episode, he's just got so
much wisdom about how to getyour your mindset right, how to

(01:12:45):
set it on a target and how toget there.
We also find out that he isjust a wizard.
I mean, he can play so manydifferent instruments.
The way that he talks aboutmusic is just so passionate that
you can't help but love him.
In this episode, a couple of thekey points that I came away

(01:13:06):
with are say yes to anything andshow up to everything, and the
one caveat here is that if inyour gut, you absolutely feel
like something feels wrong oroff or I should not do that,
don't do it.
Your gut is always right.
Just trust your gut.
But if it's just like fear orsomething like that holding you

(01:13:30):
back and not something'sactually dangerous about this,
you got to put your fear asideand just do it.
Meet everybody, say yes toeverything.
You just don't know wherethings are going to lead, who
you're going to meet, whothey're going to introduce you
to, what skill set you're goingto learn.
Just say yes to everything.
Show up to everything.

(01:13:50):
That's a great point.
Number two was ask questions.
If you ask questions andsomeone in the room makes you
feel stupid about the questionsthat you've asked, get away from
them.
They are not supposed to be apart of your team and they're
not supposed to be around you.
We are supposed to walk into aroom with very little knowledge

(01:14:11):
on a subject and leave much moreintelligent than we came.
Ask questions that's how youlearn things, obviously, but
that's how you resonate with thepeople in the room, because you
actually care about whateverthey're talking about.
You learn about people, youlearn about subjects.
Ask questions.
Get away from those that makeyou feel bad about asking
questions.

(01:14:31):
Simple as that.
A huge point is understandingexactly where you want to be in
your career before you start orbefore you get into deep
questions like do I want to bean indie artist?
Do I want to be with a label?
Do I want to be playingstadiums one day, or do I want

(01:14:51):
to be playing really cool localvenues to 300 to 500 cap rooms?
Do I want to be a megasuperstar or do I want to just
tour?
Do I just want to be playingshows?
There are so many questions,but if you figure all of this

(01:15:13):
out in the beginning, you canmake very strategic moves along
the way to set yourself up.
For that, hunter said.
If you want to play stadiums,you really need to think more
than just getting on the radio,more than just having a number
one hit.
It's cultivating fans from asmall venue, choosing the right

(01:15:35):
artist to tour with and thenincreasingly get bigger so that
you are able to cultivate fansthat will always show up for you
, and that's how you can sellout a stadium.
You don't do it by getting anumber one hit on the radio.
It's not going to just sell outa stadium.
So I really loved that.
Sit down and figure out who youwant to be one day and make
strategic moves to get there.

(01:15:56):
Lastly, whatever you believe youexude this is so important Just
be you.
Be as authentically you aspossible.
It's going to attract the rightpeople into your life who
resonate with who you are.
But also, every single day, youcan walk through life doing
whatever your creative thing iswithout having to think too hard

(01:16:20):
.
Just be you.
And in saying that, I think areally important point is that
you care about your body.
You know, you work out, you eatwell, you do things that make
you feel confident and great inyour own skin.
Talk to a therapist, you know.
Surround yourself with friendswhenever you're feeling low,

(01:16:41):
giving yourself space wheneveryou need it.
Things like that, whatever,make you feel confident in your
own self, will allow you to walkinto any room and just be you
and feel great about it.
This point is so big.
I think it would help so manypeople if we and I'm talking to
myself here just internalizethis.

(01:17:03):
Thanks for listening to theGrounds for Success podcast.
I want to thank all of thepeople who work on this podcast
and help me out.
My team is everything to me,and without them, I couldn't
bring these to you every singleweek.
I couldn't post on social media, you know, with all the clips
that we have, and so I thank youguys so much.
I want to also thank all of myclients on the Mixing and

(01:17:24):
Mastering side, because withoutyou, I could not have Grounds
for Success.
So thank you so much.
If you're enjoying the Groundsfor Success podcast, please
follow, like and subscribe onwhichever platform you're
listening or watching on.
It helps us out a ton and Iwant to keep getting this
content to you in whichever wayyou listen or watch.

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