April 9, 2024 • 25 mins
Revolutionize your product development approach with the insights of Vidya Dinamani, the dynamic force behind Product Rebels. In this electrifying exchange, we unravel the art of creating products with a genuine customer focus. Vidya, with her rich history of innovation, walks us through the three pillars and practices that transform business understanding and customer problem-solving – principles she's passionately laid out in her book "Groundwork." Our conversation not only highlights the essence of Product Rebels' methodology but also offers an eagle-eyed view into the practical, hands-on training that equips teams to make customer-centric product decisions confidently.
Embrace the digital transformation as we dissect the journey from face-to-face workshops to the burgeoning realm of virtual learning. Hear firsthand how Product Rebels' expanded 10-week program fosters more profound interaction and iterative feedback, cultivating consistently impressive net promoter scores. Get inspired by the success story of a B2B company that, under Vidya's tutelage, shifted its product launch strategy with staggering results. And for those navigating the startup sphere, we share battle-tested maneuvers to conquer common hurdles and strategically sprint ahead. Join us for a session brimming with strategies to amp up your product game and leave you equipped to forge deeper connections with your customers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey everyone, welcome back to the growing Lean
podcast sponsored by LeanDiscovery Group.
This is your host, dylan Burke,also known as Deej, and I'm
happy to be here today withVidya Dinamani, founder and
partner at Product Rebels.
Welcome, vidya.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thanks so much for having me, Dylan.
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
So, vidya, to get us started, can you give us a
little bit about your backgroundand history and what led you to
founding Product Rebels?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Sure, I've been in Product 4 for quite a long time.
I started off in technology avery long time ago I'm not going
to tell you how long ago butworked in various different
companies.
I spent over 10 years at Intuitworking on various different
products the last being TurboTaxand had a great exposure and
(00:54):
great education, thinking abouthow to build amazing products
that customers love.
Intuit is just known for deepcustomer understanding, having
wonderful techniques for beingable to understand the customer
problem and being able todevelop products quickly, very
successful products.
So I was very lucky to spend along time there and after that I
(01:17):
went to Lead Product at a B2Bcompany and what I found was
that there's a lot of differentplaces when I got out of my
bubble of the one company I hadbeen at for a very long time.
So many companies don't reallyhave these wonderful
customer-driven productpractices.
So that really led us to saythere's a gap here in the market
(01:40):
.
My business partner, who wasalso at Intuit she was there for
over 13 years.
She and I started to giveworkshops, started to talk to
early-stage companies andmid-stage companies, really
about bringing really simpleframeworks and practices in that
they could very quickly betterunderstand the customer problem,
(02:02):
develop products better and getproducts to market more
efficiently, more quickly andmore confidently, that you would
actually build products thatcustomers want and actually love
.
So that's sort of the briefjourney to say this is why we
started our company, so that wecould take a lot of the things
that we'd learned in goshdecades of product leadership
(02:27):
and be able to share those withteams that don't necessarily
have the big infrastructure, allthe different things that are
needed in big companies, butthey're able to do them really
leanly.
I love that about your podcast.
How do you do them quickly andefficiently and get them to
build products in a much betterfashion?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, amazing.
Yeah, I love that, and couldyou walk us through your overall
strategy for your business?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure.
So the strategy for thebusiness?
Are you asking about the waythat we go about reaching out to
clients in terms of a businessperspective, or actually what we
do with clients?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So a bit of both.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, so I'll start with what we do, and we actually
wrote a book about it.
It's called Groundwork and itreally breaks it down into three
core areas that we getcompanies to do.
What we start with identifyingthe customer problem, and that
sounds so simple, but so manycompanies don't do this very,
very simple in perspective.
(03:31):
What we think about is how doyou look broadly at the problem
space and then how do youconverge into the most important
customer problem that you canwork with?
And we have a template, we havea way to think about this that
really helps our founders, ourteams that we work with, get to
(03:51):
that very focused customerproblem.
So that's really the firstpiece of it.
Then we move to how do youunderstand the customer, and we
call this an action of allpersona because it's really
about it's not just about thedemographics and a broad picture
, but it's really that depth ofunderstanding that you can make
product and business decisionsbased on your understanding of
(04:13):
the customer.
And again, a lot of the time wefind that it's so broad.
There's so many different typesof clients and customers that
our teams want to serve.
It really is a matter of focusand prioritization.
And then the third piece ofthis is being able to focus on
customer needs.
It's being able to translatewhat you've heard, what you've
seen, and then make productdecisions about.
(04:34):
This is what I'm gonna build,and then build with confidence.
So we start with what we callthose three pillars and then we
overlay them with three verysimple practices around
developing a hypothesis, so thatyou're always thinking about
what do I know?
What's the most important thing, that I need to learn and be
able to focus everything thatyou do and all the learning that
you do around that hypothesis.
(04:55):
We have something calledscrappy research, which is how
do you, without a big researchteam and a lot of resources, how
do you individually and again,whether that's a founder or it's
a small team how do you go andlearn really fast so that you
are customer driven ineverything that you do?
And finally is how do you buildalignment?
(05:17):
This works just as effectivelyin really big companies as it
does with trying to buildalignment on your team.
Maybe it's your investors,maybe it's your partners, but
how do you very quickly geteverybody on the same page?
And this is what we callgroundwork, and this is the
foundation of what we do.
The business model of how wework is a little different.
(05:38):
We found that a lot of timepeople try and do classes or
training and it's alltheoretical, it's a little bit
academic and that doesn't reallyhelp you when you're trying to
build a business and trying tobuild a product.
So the way that we work is weactually work with the team over
10 weeks and we start with howdo you first kind of we roll our
(06:00):
sleeves up get to know yourbusiness, get to know the
industry and the environment andyour customers, and then
everything that we have?
We do have a learningmanagement system, but
everything that we teach theteam's got to actually apply it.
So it's very hands-on, it'sactionable, it's practical, and
then we're giving feedback.
We're using our 20 plus yearsof experience to say how do you
(06:24):
think about this?
Here's some additionalinformation, here's how you
might learn from yourcompetitors.
So it really, every week, isshaping the three pillars and
the three practices and it'shelping the team with the
product that they're eitherworking on, that they are in
development with or, in somecases, they've recently launched
(06:45):
, and so that business model ofbeing there for a period of time
, spending a few hours a week,really honing in and working on
your product makes a prettysignificant difference in the
impact and the transformationthat the work that we do has
with teams.
So strategically we positionourselves working for CEOs of
(07:07):
smaller companies and productleaders of mid and larger
companies, so that we come inand we're working with a
complete product team.
It's not just the productmanager or the product owner.
We bring in your leaddevelopers.
If you have a designer, if youhave a researcher, in cases we
have account management joiningus, we have business management,
business development, and sodoing this together really helps
(07:31):
our alignment across the entireorganization.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, that's awesome.
I love that.
And you mentioned that it's a10 week course right, so do all
your contracts end after 10weeks.
Is there no customer retention?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's a great question.
What we'd like to do is to tryand get people to be able to do
this work.
So when we're there for 10weeks, you have access to our
platform for a year, so everyoneis able to go back.
Often we find teams going backand saying, okay, now we're
going to work on anotheroffering or even a service.
(08:09):
They apply everything they'velearned.
Yes, we go back and we can runthe 10 weeks again with the team
.
But sometimes it points to anarea where there's an
opportunity to do some deeperresearch and we can help with
that.
Or there's a strategy sessionwith leadership, because we've
got all of these ideas that havebeen uncovered in the work that
we've done.
(08:29):
And so how do you choose?
How do you access resources,how do you make those decisions?
Balancing the customer, thebusiness and the team, and so
often the follow on work is alittle bit more nuanced, it's a
little bit more focused.
But the whole goal for us is,if we spend 10 weeks with you,
(08:50):
you are working and thinkingdifferently and we don't want to
be there forever.
We want you to be able to takethose 10 weeks and actually
build better products at the endof it.
That's our goal.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
That's amazing and it's a bit different to most B2B
business models where most ofthe time, people want to have an
ongoing relationship with theirclient, but you kind of just
want them to be able to do itwithout you.
And that's super interestingand it shows that you are
looking to provide value and notjust make a quick back office,
which is really awesome.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, no, that is not our goal at all.
I mean, there are so manyproduct teams out there and I
know that it is not a typicalB2B model where you are trying
to get a subscription forever,and that's why we're very
different from most training andcoaching companies.
Our goal is we've got thispackage that we know can work
(09:44):
and we work from everything fromearly stage up to 1450.
We've done transformation atscale.
We've worked with some of thebiggest names in the world and
worked with 300, 400 justproduct managers to be able to
help them bring this consistentpractice to the way they work.
And for us, that success I meanwhen you're doing 400 people
(10:05):
you're there for a year and ahalf to two years.
This is a big deal, but forsmaller teams we don't want you
to be reliant on us.
We want to give you the toolsand the access, the follow on.
Sometimes we had this abilityto stay on as a product advisor
and certainly some of ourclients want us to come in, and
(10:26):
that's a small amount ofretention to say we know the
company, we know the team, andso how do you then be able to
come back and have access toexecutive product leadership,
either as an advisory board fora certain amount of time.
But again, that is not the goal.
The goal is to really getyourself sufficient up 10 weeks
(10:49):
100%.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I love that.
I think that's really awesome.
And how have you adapted tochanges in the industry?
I see you've been around forabout seven years in the
business, so I think the mostnotable change was the pandemic.
How did you adapt to that interms of your business
operations?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
One of the biggest things that we had to change.
We often would have a kick offwith a team at the beginning of
those 10 weeks.
We would do this in person.
Our teams were all over theworld.
We have been all over theStates.
We've actually been to SouthAfrica, we've been to Europe,
we've worked with teamseverywhere and what we like to
(11:32):
do is form that relationship.
And so before the pandemic wewould always have a kick off and
bring everyone together and wewould spend a half day or a full
day workshopping some of theseconcepts and really getting to
know people and kicking off theprogram.
Post pandemic it all turnedvirtual and so we ended up
(11:52):
breaking the workshops intosmaller no one.
I think we know our appetitefor spending hours and hours in
front of our computers and zoom.
It was really hard.
So really the model changed toone of that's virtual.
Originally our program was sixweeks because you can move
quickly when you're together andyou have a longer period of
(12:14):
time and then you sort ofquickly move through the
different pieces.
It extended.
The 10 weeks now accounts forvery few in person, I'd say.
What used to be 100% in personkind of workshops and kick offs
is now probably, you know, 90%virtual.
(12:34):
There's a very small group ofpeople who still want us to come
and we still work together inperson.
That's the biggest shift and sosmaller periods of time.
The work still is exactly thesame, it's just that we've
spread it out and we've actuallyfound which is a bit of a
silver lining to having tochange a lot of different things
that is much more effective,right.
(12:55):
A little bit more time with theteam, more iteration, more
feedback across these 10 weeksreally is helpful, and in those
two weeks, those workshops thatwe used to have as a full day
are now two for our workshopsthat we spread in on week three
and week six, and you know thatagain, people can sort of spend
(13:18):
that time.
We've done a, I think, a reallynice job Translating what used
to be an in-person experience.
We're very good now at thevirtual experience and it also
helps because so many of theteams that we work with they're
no longer in-person together.
They are spread all over thecountry, all over the world, and
so having this ability tocreate really strong and and
(13:41):
powerful virtual Experiencesthat bring the team together is
an added benefit for the team.
So that's been the biggestchange to them.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, 100%.
And have you found that?
Has there been any shift incustomer satisfaction in terms
of changing from in-person toonline?
Because I'm, I can imagine,with like old-school businesses
and old-school people.
They don't really understandthis, this virtual concept, so
has that have been affected inany way?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
No, because we we're both my my business partner and
I have a deep experience indesign thinking.
We were already using a set ofvirtual tools in in order to
Keep information going or duringthose those weeks.
The coaching calls are alwaysOver over a call.
(14:36):
The the kickoff and theworkshops are in person,
pre-pandemic and so that youknow and I love the question
that you asked about customersatisfaction we measure net
promoter score and that is thesimple that will you recommend
us to others and Typically ournet promoter scores are
world-class the 70s and 80s.
(14:58):
This is an experience thatreally focused on individual and
team development.
So the individuals on the teamget new tools.
They are able to apply themimmediately, which I think is
very different again from from alot of different coaching
companies and training companies.
Everything we do is immediatelyapplicable.
(15:21):
They work on it with theirproduct.
They see a result.
I'll tell you one team.
I remember this from a fewyears ago.
We came in and they were aboutto have a product launch.
This is a B2B company, about200 people and they had a really
strong business and we're aboutto launch a new product and we
(15:44):
had two teams Work together onour coaching.
One of the teams was working ona completely new idea.
The other was can is thereanything we're missing before we
launch, because we're in thelast stage?
It's a product development, andI think that was incredibly
brave of them.
It would have been easy just tosay, nope, we're on a path,
we've got a date, let's go forthe product.
Leadership said let's just, youknow, make sure let's actually
(16:08):
look at this and make sure thatwe're really connected to what
the customer needs.
And so the team did the work andin about three to four weeks
and now launch is now two monthsaway they discovered something
pretty significant in a missthat they had thought that the
customer needed.
They had built their productbased on Conversations and
(16:32):
understanding, but doing thedeeper work with us, they had a
big aha moment and they realizedthat while this new product,
which was really some of more ofa super feature rather than a
completely new product, whilecustomers had kind of given them
, you know, indications thatthey were interested, that's not
what they really needed andthey certainly weren't going to
(16:55):
pay for it.
It was more of a sure, if it'sthere, I'll use it.
And so they made the incrediblybrave decision to actually
scrap the launch.
And but in that discovery andthe reason they were able to do
this is they uncovered somethingthat was really important to
the customer, and so theargument to the leadership was
(17:16):
we need to pivot.
We can use I think they coulduse about a third of the
development that they alreadydid, but they had to throw away
a bunch of work because this wassuch a big learning.
They made the recommendation,they used the building alignment
, building commitment to be ableto convince, and the way that
they convinced wasn't theiropinion.
(17:38):
They actually showed what thecustomer did, what the customer
said.
They created this really strongnarrative and it was an obvious
business decision to make.
And so that's, you know, anexample of and that was, you
know, one of those times wherethere's lots of examples of
transformation that I can giveyou.
But that was so powerfulbecause, you know, there was a
(17:58):
machine in place to release thisproduct and they actually
pulled it because they realizedthat it wasn't going to be what
they expected, and so it shiftedto.
Six months later, they launchedthis new product very
successful, and they're able tomonetize it in a way that they
would never have been able tofor for the initial direction
(18:19):
that they're going in.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's awesome.
I love to hear stories likethat.
It's amazing.
And Since you launched likemaybe in your launch up period
or any time since then what hasbeen the biggest challenges that
you faced Running your businessand how did you overcome that?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I think some of the biggest challenges is, I tell
you, is differentiation.
You know I've talked to youabout what we do and what's so
important, about the way that wework and the way that we coach,
which is on the person, theteam, the organisation's product
.
But it's sometimes hard todifferentiate yourself from
(19:03):
larger organisations, and Ithink that anyone listening you
know there's always competitorsthat are more established,
they're much bigger, and so youknow when it's easy for teams to
go down the path and lead us tosay I'm going to send you down
this product coaching or thisproduct training and
differentiating ourselves.
(19:24):
We're not agile, we're not safe.
Our product teams can certainlywork in those environments, but
the goal is to bring in thesereally strong customer driven
practices, and so for us, thebiggest challenge has been
establishing ourselves, as howare we different?
(19:44):
What do we do?
That's different, and so, inthe way that we try to overcome
this and I'd say this is still awork in progress we're still a
pretty small shop, we work witha lot of big companies, but it's
, you know, our goal is to tryand get to many more mid-sized
companies and to bring this typeof training and thinking to
(20:06):
those teams.
And so trying to do some thoughtleadership.
You know we actually run apodcast ourselves and talk to
interesting product leaders whohave done brave things that have
really stood up for theircustomer.
And you know it speaks to ourname Product Rebels.
It's a question we namedourselves because we want to set
(20:27):
ourselves apart.
We want to say we fly thatcustomer flag and sometimes it's
hard, sometimes you're goingagainst the grain, sometimes
you're pushing against what thestatus quo is.
So we brought in voices thathave done those at really
well-known companies and so alot of this is again
(20:48):
establishing sort of who we are,our voice and being able to say
how we're different fromtypical product training
companies.
So that's really been anongoing business challenge.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Okay, 100% percent, and I just looked at the time.
We are running out of time, butI've got a couple more
questions.
Where do you see yourself andyour business in, let's say, two
years' time, if everything'sgone right?
What does your business looklike then and what has changed
(21:21):
from now to then?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
What I'd love to see is that we have been able to
impact a lot of those agile andsafe-trained teams that have
really focused on process overthe last gosh five, seven, ten
years, and that they are nowopen to product-led
(21:49):
transformation.
They've got good practices interms of how they develop
products and now it's reallyabout let's work on the right
things, and so ideally in twoyears, we're known as a company
that can come in and really helpvery quickly bring those
(22:11):
transformation processes in.
This isn't a year to two yearslike agile and safe.
This is a 10-week commitment,and so what I'd love to do is to
see our team of product coachesgrow.
I'd love to see us be attachedto those businesses who are in
pain.
They're building products,they're churning out a lot of
(22:32):
software, but it's really notmaking a difference, and they
know it.
And they're looking forsomething that can help them get
back to really buildingproducts that customers and
clients want and love and thatwe are known as a team that can
help them get there.
That's my dream, Maybe morethan two years, but that's what
(22:53):
I'd love to see.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I love that.
Thank you, and before we go,what advice would you like to
give other business ownerslooking to succeed in this
ever-changing world?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I think the biggest thing is I'll go back to our
first principle, which is it'sreally easy, I think, as a
business, to want to solve lotsof problems.
You know, I think as a businessowner, you see issues all the
time and we're always thinking.
There's always amazing ideascoming out and you get inspired
by things that you read orthings that other people are
doing, and so it's really easyto say I could do.
(23:29):
You know these 10 things, andthen two weeks later you have
another five things and I thinkthe biggest thing, the biggest
advice, is stay really focused.
We, you know, taking those twopieces, really understanding
what problem that you want tosolve, that you're best at
solving and that you canmonetize and who you're solving
(23:49):
it for, and being disciplinedand feeling like you give
yourself permission to say no tomost things and pick, pick the
thing that you're going to focuson and go deep.
And so you know, I think, ourtemplates they are free to
download.
They can help with businessowners as well, because it helps
(24:12):
you think about what am Ireally trying to do here, what
am I trying to change?
Where am I trying to move theneedle?
And then, how do I reallyspecifically focus, because
everything becomes so much morefine tuned and it feels scary
and it feels risky, but I thinkthat's where success comes off,
when you can actually go deepand you're going to delight a
(24:33):
small group of people ratherthan try and spread and try to
solve a lot of problems for alot of different people.
So that's that's the advice.
That's completely based on thework that we do.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Amazing.
I love that and I agree withyou completely and thank you,
Vidya, for your time today.
What is the best way for peopleto get in touch with Vidya Dino
Money if you've got any offersfor them or if they're just
looking to follow your journey?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, thank you, LinkedIn is a great way to reach
out to me.
Our website, productrebelscom.
There's some of the templatesthat I talked about.
They're all free to downloadand I invite you to do that and
if you give you, if you get ourtemplates, you will reach out
and be on our newsletter if youopt in and be able to follow
(25:24):
sort of the journey.
So thank you for letting meshare that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Amazing, amazing, and thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Thanks, it was very fun D Thanks again.
Hey everyone, welcome back to the growing Lean
podcast sponsored by LeanDiscovery Group.
This is your host, dylan Burke,also known as Deej, and I'm
happy to be here today withVidya Dinamani, founder and
partner at Product Rebels.
Welcome, vidya.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thanks so much for having me, Dylan.
It's my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
So, vidya, to get us started, can you give us a
little bit about your backgroundand history and what led you to
founding Product Rebels?
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Sure, I've been in Product 4 for quite a long time.
I started off in technology avery long time ago I'm not going
to tell you how long ago butworked in various different
companies.
I spent over 10 years at Intuitworking on various different
products the last being TurboTaxand had a great exposure and
(00:54):
great education, thinking abouthow to build amazing products
that customers love.
Intuit is just known for deepcustomer understanding, having
wonderful techniques for beingable to understand the customer
problem and being able todevelop products quickly, very
successful products.
So I was very lucky to spend along time there and after that I
(01:17):
went to Lead Product at a B2Bcompany and what I found was
that there's a lot of differentplaces when I got out of my
bubble of the one company I hadbeen at for a very long time.
So many companies don't reallyhave these wonderful
customer-driven productpractices.
So that really led us to saythere's a gap here in the market
(01:40):
.
My business partner, who wasalso at Intuit she was there for
over 13 years.
She and I started to giveworkshops, started to talk to
early-stage companies andmid-stage companies, really
about bringing really simpleframeworks and practices in that
they could very quickly betterunderstand the customer problem,
(02:02):
develop products better and getproducts to market more
efficiently, more quickly andmore confidently, that you would
actually build products thatcustomers want and actually love
.
So that's sort of the briefjourney to say this is why we
started our company, so that wecould take a lot of the things
that we'd learned in goshdecades of product leadership
(02:27):
and be able to share those withteams that don't necessarily
have the big infrastructure, allthe different things that are
needed in big companies, butthey're able to do them really
leanly.
I love that about your podcast.
How do you do them quickly andefficiently and get them to
build products in a much betterfashion?
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Okay, amazing.
Yeah, I love that, and couldyou walk us through your overall
strategy for your business?
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Sure.
So the strategy for thebusiness?
Are you asking about the waythat we go about reaching out to
clients in terms of a businessperspective, or actually what we
do with clients?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
So a bit of both.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Okay, so I'll start with what we do, and we actually
wrote a book about it.
It's called Groundwork and itreally breaks it down into three
core areas that we getcompanies to do.
What we start with identifyingthe customer problem, and that
sounds so simple, but so manycompanies don't do this very,
very simple in perspective.
(03:31):
What we think about is how doyou look broadly at the problem
space and then how do youconverge into the most important
customer problem that you canwork with?
And we have a template, we havea way to think about this that
really helps our founders, ourteams that we work with, get to
(03:51):
that very focused customerproblem.
So that's really the firstpiece of it.
Then we move to how do youunderstand the customer, and we
call this an action of allpersona because it's really
about it's not just about thedemographics and a broad picture
, but it's really that depth ofunderstanding that you can make
product and business decisionsbased on your understanding of
(04:13):
the customer.
And again, a lot of the time wefind that it's so broad.
There's so many different typesof clients and customers that
our teams want to serve.
It really is a matter of focusand prioritization.
And then the third piece ofthis is being able to focus on
customer needs.
It's being able to translatewhat you've heard, what you've
seen, and then make productdecisions about.
(04:34):
This is what I'm gonna build,and then build with confidence.
So we start with what we callthose three pillars and then we
overlay them with three verysimple practices around
developing a hypothesis, so thatyou're always thinking about
what do I know?
What's the most important thing, that I need to learn and be
able to focus everything thatyou do and all the learning that
you do around that hypothesis.
(04:55):
We have something calledscrappy research, which is how
do you, without a big researchteam and a lot of resources, how
do you individually and again,whether that's a founder or it's
a small team how do you go andlearn really fast so that you
are customer driven ineverything that you do?
And finally is how do you buildalignment?
(05:17):
This works just as effectivelyin really big companies as it
does with trying to buildalignment on your team.
Maybe it's your investors,maybe it's your partners, but
how do you very quickly geteverybody on the same page?
And this is what we callgroundwork, and this is the
foundation of what we do.
The business model of how wework is a little different.
(05:38):
We found that a lot of timepeople try and do classes or
training and it's alltheoretical, it's a little bit
academic and that doesn't reallyhelp you when you're trying to
build a business and trying tobuild a product.
So the way that we work is weactually work with the team over
10 weeks and we start with howdo you first kind of we roll our
(06:00):
sleeves up get to know yourbusiness, get to know the
industry and the environment andyour customers, and then
everything that we have?
We do have a learningmanagement system, but
everything that we teach theteam's got to actually apply it.
So it's very hands-on, it'sactionable, it's practical, and
then we're giving feedback.
We're using our 20 plus yearsof experience to say how do you
(06:24):
think about this?
Here's some additionalinformation, here's how you
might learn from yourcompetitors.
So it really, every week, isshaping the three pillars and
the three practices and it'shelping the team with the
product that they're eitherworking on, that they are in
development with or, in somecases, they've recently launched
(06:45):
, and so that business model ofbeing there for a period of time
, spending a few hours a week,really honing in and working on
your product makes a prettysignificant difference in the
impact and the transformationthat the work that we do has
with teams.
So strategically we positionourselves working for CEOs of
(07:07):
smaller companies and productleaders of mid and larger
companies, so that we come inand we're working with a
complete product team.
It's not just the productmanager or the product owner.
We bring in your leaddevelopers.
If you have a designer, if youhave a researcher, in cases we
have account management joiningus, we have business management,
business development, and sodoing this together really helps
(07:31):
our alignment across the entireorganization.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Okay, that's awesome.
I love that.
And you mentioned that it's a10 week course right, so do all
your contracts end after 10weeks.
Is there no customer retention?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
That's a great question.
What we'd like to do is to tryand get people to be able to do
this work.
So when we're there for 10weeks, you have access to our
platform for a year, so everyoneis able to go back.
Often we find teams going backand saying, okay, now we're
going to work on anotheroffering or even a service.
(08:09):
They apply everything they'velearned.
Yes, we go back and we can runthe 10 weeks again with the team
.
But sometimes it points to anarea where there's an
opportunity to do some deeperresearch and we can help with
that.
Or there's a strategy sessionwith leadership, because we've
got all of these ideas that havebeen uncovered in the work that
we've done.
(08:29):
And so how do you choose?
How do you access resources,how do you make those decisions?
Balancing the customer, thebusiness and the team, and so
often the follow on work is alittle bit more nuanced, it's a
little bit more focused.
But the whole goal for us is,if we spend 10 weeks with you,
(08:50):
you are working and thinkingdifferently and we don't want to
be there forever.
We want you to be able to takethose 10 weeks and actually
build better products at the endof it.
That's our goal.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
That's amazing and it's a bit different to most B2B
business models where most ofthe time, people want to have an
ongoing relationship with theirclient, but you kind of just
want them to be able to do itwithout you.
And that's super interestingand it shows that you are
looking to provide value and notjust make a quick back office,
which is really awesome.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, no, that is not our goal at all.
I mean, there are so manyproduct teams out there and I
know that it is not a typicalB2B model where you are trying
to get a subscription forever,and that's why we're very
different from most training andcoaching companies.
Our goal is we've got thispackage that we know can work
(09:44):
and we work from everything fromearly stage up to 1450.
We've done transformation atscale.
We've worked with some of thebiggest names in the world and
worked with 300, 400 justproduct managers to be able to
help them bring this consistentpractice to the way they work.
And for us, that success I meanwhen you're doing 400 people
(10:05):
you're there for a year and ahalf to two years.
This is a big deal, but forsmaller teams we don't want you
to be reliant on us.
We want to give you the toolsand the access, the follow on.
Sometimes we had this abilityto stay on as a product advisor
and certainly some of ourclients want us to come in, and
(10:26):
that's a small amount ofretention to say we know the
company, we know the team, andso how do you then be able to
come back and have access toexecutive product leadership,
either as an advisory board fora certain amount of time.
But again, that is not the goal.
The goal is to really getyourself sufficient up 10 weeks
(10:49):
100%.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
I love that.
I think that's really awesome.
And how have you adapted tochanges in the industry?
I see you've been around forabout seven years in the
business, so I think the mostnotable change was the pandemic.
How did you adapt to that interms of your business
operations?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
One of the biggest things that we had to change.
We often would have a kick offwith a team at the beginning of
those 10 weeks.
We would do this in person.
Our teams were all over theworld.
We have been all over theStates.
We've actually been to SouthAfrica, we've been to Europe,
we've worked with teamseverywhere and what we like to
(11:32):
do is form that relationship.
And so before the pandemic wewould always have a kick off and
bring everyone together and wewould spend a half day or a full
day workshopping some of theseconcepts and really getting to
know people and kicking off theprogram.
Post pandemic it all turnedvirtual and so we ended up
(11:52):
breaking the workshops intosmaller no one.
I think we know our appetitefor spending hours and hours in
front of our computers and zoom.
It was really hard.
So really the model changed toone of that's virtual.
Originally our program was sixweeks because you can move
quickly when you're together andyou have a longer period of
(12:14):
time and then you sort ofquickly move through the
different pieces.
It extended.
The 10 weeks now accounts forvery few in person, I'd say.
What used to be 100% in personkind of workshops and kick offs
is now probably, you know, 90%virtual.
(12:34):
There's a very small group ofpeople who still want us to come
and we still work together inperson.
That's the biggest shift and sosmaller periods of time.
The work still is exactly thesame, it's just that we've
spread it out and we've actuallyfound which is a bit of a
silver lining to having tochange a lot of different things
that is much more effective,right.
(12:55):
A little bit more time with theteam, more iteration, more
feedback across these 10 weeksreally is helpful, and in those
two weeks, those workshops thatwe used to have as a full day
are now two for our workshopsthat we spread in on week three
and week six, and you know thatagain, people can sort of spend
(13:18):
that time.
We've done a, I think, a reallynice job Translating what used
to be an in-person experience.
We're very good now at thevirtual experience and it also
helps because so many of theteams that we work with they're
no longer in-person together.
They are spread all over thecountry, all over the world, and
so having this ability tocreate really strong and and
(13:41):
powerful virtual Experiencesthat bring the team together is
an added benefit for the team.
So that's been the biggestchange to them.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Yeah, 100%.
And have you found that?
Has there been any shift incustomer satisfaction in terms
of changing from in-person toonline?
Because I'm, I can imagine,with like old-school businesses
and old-school people.
They don't really understandthis, this virtual concept, so
has that have been affected inany way?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
No, because we we're both my my business partner and
I have a deep experience indesign thinking.
We were already using a set ofvirtual tools in in order to
Keep information going or duringthose those weeks.
The coaching calls are alwaysOver over a call.
(14:36):
The the kickoff and theworkshops are in person,
pre-pandemic and so that youknow and I love the question
that you asked about customersatisfaction we measure net
promoter score and that is thesimple that will you recommend
us to others and Typically ournet promoter scores are
world-class the 70s and 80s.
(14:58):
This is an experience thatreally focused on individual and
team development.
So the individuals on the teamget new tools.
They are able to apply themimmediately, which I think is
very different again from from alot of different coaching
companies and training companies.
Everything we do is immediatelyapplicable.
(15:21):
They work on it with theirproduct.
They see a result.
I'll tell you one team.
I remember this from a fewyears ago.
We came in and they were aboutto have a product launch.
This is a B2B company, about200 people and they had a really
strong business and we're aboutto launch a new product and we
(15:44):
had two teams Work together onour coaching.
One of the teams was working ona completely new idea.
The other was can is thereanything we're missing before we
launch, because we're in thelast stage?
It's a product development, andI think that was incredibly
brave of them.
It would have been easy just tosay, nope, we're on a path,
we've got a date, let's go forthe product.
Leadership said let's just, youknow, make sure let's actually
(16:08):
look at this and make sure thatwe're really connected to what
the customer needs.
And so the team did the work andin about three to four weeks
and now launch is now two monthsaway they discovered something
pretty significant in a missthat they had thought that the
customer needed.
They had built their productbased on Conversations and
(16:32):
understanding, but doing thedeeper work with us, they had a
big aha moment and they realizedthat while this new product,
which was really some of more ofa super feature rather than a
completely new product, whilecustomers had kind of given them
, you know, indications thatthey were interested, that's not
what they really needed andthey certainly weren't going to
(16:55):
pay for it.
It was more of a sure, if it'sthere, I'll use it.
And so they made the incrediblybrave decision to actually
scrap the launch.
And but in that discovery andthe reason they were able to do
this is they uncovered somethingthat was really important to
the customer, and so theargument to the leadership was
(17:16):
we need to pivot.
We can use I think they coulduse about a third of the
development that they alreadydid, but they had to throw away
a bunch of work because this wassuch a big learning.
They made the recommendation,they used the building alignment
, building commitment to be ableto convince, and the way that
they convinced wasn't theiropinion.
(17:38):
They actually showed what thecustomer did, what the customer
said.
They created this really strongnarrative and it was an obvious
business decision to make.
And so that's, you know, anexample of and that was, you
know, one of those times wherethere's lots of examples of
transformation that I can giveyou.
But that was so powerfulbecause, you know, there was a
(17:58):
machine in place to release thisproduct and they actually
pulled it because they realizedthat it wasn't going to be what
they expected, and so it shiftedto.
Six months later, they launchedthis new product very
successful, and they're able tomonetize it in a way that they
would never have been able tofor for the initial direction
(18:19):
that they're going in.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
That's awesome.
I love to hear stories likethat.
It's amazing.
And Since you launched likemaybe in your launch up period
or any time since then what hasbeen the biggest challenges that
you faced Running your businessand how did you overcome that?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I think some of the biggest challenges is, I tell
you, is differentiation.
You know I've talked to youabout what we do and what's so
important, about the way that wework and the way that we coach,
which is on the person, theteam, the organisation's product
.
But it's sometimes hard todifferentiate yourself from
(19:03):
larger organisations, and Ithink that anyone listening you
know there's always competitorsthat are more established,
they're much bigger, and so youknow when it's easy for teams to
go down the path and lead us tosay I'm going to send you down
this product coaching or thisproduct training and
differentiating ourselves.
(19:24):
We're not agile, we're not safe.
Our product teams can certainlywork in those environments, but
the goal is to bring in thesereally strong customer driven
practices, and so for us, thebiggest challenge has been
establishing ourselves, as howare we different?
(19:44):
What do we do?
That's different, and so, inthe way that we try to overcome
this and I'd say this is still awork in progress we're still a
pretty small shop, we work witha lot of big companies, but it's
, you know, our goal is to tryand get to many more mid-sized
companies and to bring this typeof training and thinking to
(20:06):
those teams.
And so trying to do some thoughtleadership.
You know we actually run apodcast ourselves and talk to
interesting product leaders whohave done brave things that have
really stood up for theircustomer.
And you know it speaks to ourname Product Rebels.
It's a question we namedourselves because we want to set
(20:27):
ourselves apart.
We want to say we fly thatcustomer flag and sometimes it's
hard, sometimes you're goingagainst the grain, sometimes
you're pushing against what thestatus quo is.
So we brought in voices thathave done those at really
well-known companies and so alot of this is again
(20:48):
establishing sort of who we are,our voice and being able to say
how we're different fromtypical product training
companies.
So that's really been anongoing business challenge.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Okay, 100% percent, and I just looked at the time.
We are running out of time, butI've got a couple more
questions.
Where do you see yourself andyour business in, let's say, two
years' time, if everything'sgone right?
What does your business looklike then and what has changed
(21:21):
from now to then?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
What I'd love to see is that we have been able to
impact a lot of those agile andsafe-trained teams that have
really focused on process overthe last gosh five, seven, ten
years, and that they are nowopen to product-led
(21:49):
transformation.
They've got good practices interms of how they develop
products and now it's reallyabout let's work on the right
things, and so ideally in twoyears, we're known as a company
that can come in and really helpvery quickly bring those
(22:11):
transformation processes in.
This isn't a year to two yearslike agile and safe.
This is a 10-week commitment,and so what I'd love to do is to
see our team of product coachesgrow.
I'd love to see us be attachedto those businesses who are in
pain.
They're building products,they're churning out a lot of
(22:32):
software, but it's really notmaking a difference, and they
know it.
And they're looking forsomething that can help them get
back to really buildingproducts that customers and
clients want and love and thatwe are known as a team that can
help them get there.
That's my dream, Maybe morethan two years, but that's what
(22:53):
I'd love to see.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
I love that.
Thank you, and before we go,what advice would you like to
give other business ownerslooking to succeed in this
ever-changing world?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
I think the biggest thing is I'll go back to our
first principle, which is it'sreally easy, I think, as a
business, to want to solve lotsof problems.
You know, I think as a businessowner, you see issues all the
time and we're always thinking.
There's always amazing ideascoming out and you get inspired
by things that you read orthings that other people are
doing, and so it's really easyto say I could do.
(23:29):
You know these 10 things, andthen two weeks later you have
another five things and I thinkthe biggest thing, the biggest
advice, is stay really focused.
We, you know, taking those twopieces, really understanding
what problem that you want tosolve, that you're best at
solving and that you canmonetize and who you're solving
(23:49):
it for, and being disciplinedand feeling like you give
yourself permission to say no tomost things and pick, pick the
thing that you're going to focuson and go deep.
And so you know, I think, ourtemplates they are free to
download.
They can help with businessowners as well, because it helps
(24:12):
you think about what am Ireally trying to do here, what
am I trying to change?
Where am I trying to move theneedle?
And then, how do I reallyspecifically focus, because
everything becomes so much morefine tuned and it feels scary
and it feels risky, but I thinkthat's where success comes off,
when you can actually go deepand you're going to delight a
(24:33):
small group of people ratherthan try and spread and try to
solve a lot of problems for alot of different people.
So that's that's the advice.
That's completely based on thework that we do.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Amazing.
I love that and I agree withyou completely and thank you,
Vidya, for your time today.
What is the best way for peopleto get in touch with Vidya Dino
Money if you've got any offersfor them or if they're just
looking to follow your journey?
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Well, thank you, LinkedIn is a great way to reach
out to me.
Our website, productrebelscom.
There's some of the templatesthat I talked about.
They're all free to downloadand I invite you to do that and
if you give you, if you get ourtemplates, you will reach out
and be on our newsletter if youopt in and be able to follow
(25:24):
sort of the journey.
So thank you for letting meshare that.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Amazing, amazing, and thank you for your time today.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Thanks, it was very fun D Thanks again.
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