Embark on a voyage of discovery with Professor Dr. Karina Oches, a vanguard of Gen Z thought leadership and the mastermind behind KO SciFi Branding, as she joins us to unravel the enigma of managing in an AI-driven world. Get ready to be captivated by her exceptional journey from academia to creating a branding juggernaut, and learn how her decade of global expertise is reshaping the very fabric of leadership and decision-making. Through her lens, we'll navigate the cultural intricacies and strategies that are paramount in steering businesses to success amidst the AI revolution, providing a treasure trove of wisdom for leaders and entrepreneurs who seek to excel in these transformative times.
Prepare to be enlightened as we dissect the metamorphosis of workplace culture and the diverse expectations of a multi-generational workforce. I'll share the evolution of my grit and adaptability shaped by my own cultural leap from South Africa to the US, spotlighting the agility that is critical in today's dynamic business environment. Together with Karina, we explore how Gen Z's penchant for structure is revolutionizing onboarding processes, the significance of personal time for the younger workforce, and how innovative strategies like intergenerational mentorship and gamification are bridging the gap between age groups. This episode offers a fresh perspective on fostering a resilient work culture that harmonizes innovation with cultural adeptness, a must-hear for anyone poised to lead through the challenges of a multi-crisis era.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey folks, welcome back to the growing Lean podcast
sponsored by Lean DiscoveryGroup, an award-winning software
development firm based out ofVirginia.
This is your host, dylan Burke,also known as Dege, and I'm
happy to be here today withProfessor Dr Karina Oches, gen Z
, expert, professor ofLeadership and Management and
CEO at KO SciFi Branding.
(00:24):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello Dege, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yes, it's my pleasure .
So, to get us started, can youtell us a little bit about your
background and history and howyou ended up doing what you do
today?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So, as you said and thank you for that lovely
introduction I'm a Gen Z expertand I'm also a professor of
leadership and management.
I offer consultancy programs,speaking services and
educational programs forcompanies, institutional bodies
as well as internationalorganizations.
I have clients from all overthe four continents and I've
(01:03):
started doing public speakingand consultancy roughly a decade
ago in the United States.
Right now, I'm really focusingon next generation leadership
and Gen Z in the form of, asI've said, consultancy and
speaking services.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay, that's amazing, and can you tell me a little
bit more about the business?
What's your overall strategy?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I guess when you do business, especially in
educational programs and inconsultancy leadership
consultancy you always want tolook at what's ahead.
So I try to do research and beyears ahead to see what's coming
.
But then again you also need tobe ready to implement what's
coming, not too early, eventhough you want to be an early
(01:49):
adopter.
And then the third thing is,since I work with clients from
all over the world, so over thefour continents, I need to have
cultural awareness of theirmilieu, because sometimes the
leadership strategies that mightwork in the US or in Europe
might not work in Africa, forinstance.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
And when did you start thebusiness?
When did you make this yourbaby?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
As I said, I started roughly a decade ago and I've
started with personal branding.
This was before branding was athing, so I wrote a book on
personal branding.
It became a best seller.
This was written together withBrian Tracy.
Then I started speaking allover the world, including TEDx,
about this.
But right now, the brandinglandscape, for instance, is
(02:42):
really changing with theimplementation of AI.
So is leadership.
So, as I said, I'm alwaystrying to be ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, amazing.
And, as you mentioned, it'schanging with AI.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about that?
How has that impacted you andyour business?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The AI revolution is really transforming industries
and it's reshaping the way wework, and I've been getting more
and more clients that areworried about how AI will change
their businesses, the way theywork, the way they interact with
their employees.
So really, now we're looking atthe ways in which leadership
(03:22):
can help, in which AI can worktogether with leaders, and we're
looking at the giants in thissense.
We've seen IBM do this, we'veseen Salesforce do this, amazon
they all started using AI tohelp the leaders either make
better decisions or even createnew leaders, so they use it to
(03:44):
create funnels in theirbusinesses.
It's an interesting time we'reliving in.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, it's super interesting and I think the next
five to 10 years are going tobe somewhat crazy, but I'm
excited about it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Definitely.
We're definitely living in whatthe World Economic Forum would
call a polar crisis.
So we have several crises thatare happening all over the world
and they could always augmentand become one big crisis.
But for us, for entrepreneurs,for people who are A players and
trying to be ahead of the game,it's a good moment to challenge
(04:17):
ourselves and adapt ourselvesto what is new and what is
coming 100%, and how are youmaking use of AI within your
business and its operations?
It's very interesting becauseright now we're testing
everything.
So, as I've said, we're tryingto see how these funnels would
(04:39):
go.
How could we use AI to be thementor in the machine, if you
will?
So how could AI mentor a leader, for instance, at the beginning
of their journey, to becomebetter at what they do?
How would AI help leaders makedecisions based on data
(05:00):
pertaining to their HR resources?
And we're testing all of thesethings to see what works and
what doesn't work.
Of course, as you know, ai hashallucinations, so we have to
ensure there's always a personto see corrections and so on.
So I'm implementing this in mybusiness, but I'm also working
to see how this would go toadvise other businesses that I'm
(05:21):
working with.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Okay, 100%.
And over the last 10 yearssince you started, what have
been the biggest challenges orobstacles that you faced and how
did you overcome them?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I would say one interesting challenge was the
pandemic, as it was with all ofus.
First of all, as a speaker,everyone moved in the online
sphere, so of course, there'salways the question of how do
you convey the message to theaudience when you can't really
interact with the audience,especially since I was trained
(05:58):
in the way of speaking face toface with people.
That is one thing.
Then, pertaining to branding,for instance, if in the
beginning, we would have anarray of people, you would have
designers, you would have allthese programmers.
In time, everything is becomingmore user-friendly and now, with
(06:18):
AI, you don't really need tohave a whole team of brand
experts.
Just one consultant would befine that could work together
with the AI.
So there are all these shiftsthat are kind of changing the
way we used to do things.
And then, pertaining to myclients, I've had to consult in
companies in which they found itdifficult to work from home,
(06:41):
especially older founders whoreally liked being in the office
and seeing their entirepersonnel.
So it was also the mentalityshift that I had to work with my
clients on.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, 100%, is your business also remote?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Part of my business is remote.
I wear many different hats anddo many different things.
So if I would guest lecture, Icould do that remote or in
person.
If I do consultancy, I can doconsultancy again remote or in
person.
It depends on how the contractis structured.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, 100%.
The reason I say that isbecause it's been such a shift
for me specifically.
I only work remote now and it'schanged my life.
It's so much easier.
But like the older generation,as you said, they struggle to
adapt.
Like my grandfather, forexample.
He's a prostitutor developerand he just obviously going to
(07:36):
sites and stuff you can't dothat remotely.
But having meetings with yourpartners and stuff he just
doesn't understand that you cando it over a video call.
He likes to be in person, helikes to shake hands and even
during the pandemic he was like78 years old and he would still
insist to meet in person,regardless of the risks, because
(07:56):
he believed in a handshake.
He believed that that's a man'sword and it's hard for them to
shift that mindset but it'sslowly adapting more and more
and it's definitely changing theface of how pretty much all
businesses operate.
It's quite interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Especially culturally .
As you said, there are manycultures around the world for
whom having that handshake isvery important.
Then you have entire groups offounders that know best how to
communicate when they can seethe micro expressions.
In negotiations, it's sometimesbetter to be in person.
(08:37):
So it's interesting to see howwe're shifting our body language
and how we're starting to usewritten language, and maybe even
these emoticons, in order toconvey messages online.
But then another difficulty ishow do you get a whole array of
employees who are used to workin the office to be productive
(08:59):
at home, because they have toshift the entire way they have
been doing things.
They have been used to besupervised in the offices and
now they have to do moreself-supervised work.
So something I'm teaching isself-leadership, which is
something that I feel we haven'ttaught people sufficiently.
(09:21):
So self-leadership is how doyou teach yourself to become the
leader of your own life, andemployees really need to learn
this when they shift fromworking in the office to working
at home.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, 100%.
Some of our clients haveactually come to us with that
problem and what we've found isyou can somewhat gamify your
workforce if they're workingremotely, so they can kind of
interact with their employeeswithout talking to them, so they
can compete on tasks and salesand calls and that type of thing
(09:55):
.
And a lot of businesses havefound that that really helps is
having some sort of gamificationof the work-life balance,
because it gets lonely whenyou're working from home and if
you can see what your colleaguesare doing and kind of compete
with them, it mostly boostsproductivity and takes away that
(10:16):
loneliness a little bit.
So that's been a huge thingwhich is pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
It's very interesting that you mentioned this.
As part of my research on theyounger generation, I've seen
that gamification helps themtremendously, and especially in
the onboarding process, but then, while they become full-time
employees, they seem, as you'vesaid, to work better when
(10:44):
there's some sort ofgamifications, when tasks are
broken down, when steps areimplemented, which is something
that older generations ofmanagers never used to do.
So now you have that gap andthat clash between generations,
trying to merge them together,which is something I consult on.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, exactly, We've actually just implemented a new
onboarding system.
So instead of spending like oneto two hours running through
and like manually onboarding ournew hires, we have an automated
workflow so they can just go tothe next task.
We get notified.
They have any questions?
They can just let us know, andit's saving so much time and
(11:28):
it's making the whole processjust more efficient.
It's great.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And so are you implementing also an evaluation
system through this gamificationprocess to see if they're fully
onboarded.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, so we haven't automated that process, but once
they've onboarded we'll havelike some sort of interview with
them and they'll kind of gothrough what they like, what
they didn't like and where wecan improve.
And it's been super, superhelpful.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
the feedback Because something else that came across
from my research on the youngergenerations at work is precisely
also evaluating them Again, ifI devaluation, to see if they
were attentively reading, let'ssay, the materials during the
onboarding or looking at thevideos.
(12:17):
But I think the fact thatyou're moving towards these
systems of automated onboardingwill help companies tremendously
, especially since, as you verywell know, their retention rates
have changed in the sense thatin the past, we've had employees
being with their companies for40 years and now, with the gig
(12:41):
economy, we've seen a reductionof the employees, and my
research shows that employeesnow stay with an employer maybe
like around a year.
So obviously we need to onboardmore as employers and we need
systems ideally automatedsystems to do this, because
otherwise all of our middlemanagers will burn out, which is
(13:04):
again another phenomenon thatwe're seeing.
So definitely, both AI andother CRM systems can help in
these automatic onboarding,which I think is necessary at
the present time.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, 100%, and I think that's a great point that
you mentioned is high employeeturnover.
Especially with this digitalworld that we've discussed and
remote working, it's veryimportant to have systems in
place to make your employeeshappy and want to stay with the
company for long, because peopledo turn over so quickly, and
I've seen it with my previousjobs that I've been in.
(13:39):
It's not that I was entirelyunhappy Either the pay wasn't
right or there was some toxicleadership in there.
So I think it's super importantto find the right balance to
make your employees happy andwant to stay, and having the
right technology in place candefinitely assist in that.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I agree, and also as a manager, sometimes it's not
even about making the employeeshappy at some point, but I agree
with what you're saying.
But the new reality is thatthere's this high employee
turnover.
So, rather than trying to forcethe life cycle of employees,
(14:24):
it's good to be prepared and seeokay, if someone leaves, how do
they leave things, so the nextperson can jump right in.
But another thing that managerscould focus now is for them to
rethink, to completely rethinkthe way tasks look like, because
in the past, employees used todo a little bit of everything
(14:48):
and everything of what is needed, and now I think employees are
coming in with differentexpectations.
They want everything to be aclear cut, and this is something
that older managers were notused to.
So now they have to go to theentire job descriptions, make
realistic job descriptions andthen rework through their entire
processes to see how they canexplain this to an individual,
(15:13):
which is again a shift in whichI think various autonomous
systems could help.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I've actually experienced that myself.
So I think it's a bit of aculture thing, because I'm from
South Africa and when you get,when you start a job in South
Africa, you're kind of like toldwhat to do and how to do it and
you trained to do it.
And when I signed this new rolefor Lean Discovery Group, I was
kind of brought in and that'swhat I expected.
(15:40):
And I was a little bit likeworried in the beginning because
I didn't have much guidance.
But then I did a bit ofresearch and that's just how
people work in America.
Firstly, they want you to thinkon your feet.
They want to see how you woulddo jobs, see if you can do it
differently and better ratherthan staying the same, if that
(16:01):
makes sense.
And that's been superbeneficial to me and it was a
huge learning curve and I'mreally glad that it happened.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It is a system that I prefer, having people think on
their feet and see if there's anew way of doing things.
What I found is this doesn'twork with the younger
generations at all.
Of course, that would not beyour case, since this was not
your first job.
But with the youngergenerations for instance Gen Z,
who are now maybe having theirfirst or second job they expect
(16:33):
to have these onboardingprograms in which they know,
step by step, what they need todo.
I suppose somewhere this isunderstandable, since they're
very young.
This is their first job andthey're trying to understand how
the world works Rather than.
This way of thinking on one'sfeet seems to be something that
they really run away from, andthey think that this is the
(16:55):
reason why they're burnt out.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's a super interesting worldhow things are changing at the
moment.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And even the work-life balance concept at the
moment.
In the past, gen X and Boomersthey gave everything to their
jobs.
Now, with the rise ofmillennials, we've seen this
concept of work-life balance andtrying to build a life rather
than a hustle.
We're seeing hustle culture beconfided to, let's say, the
(17:30):
entrepreneurs or the SiliconValley.
Groups of entrepreneurs, ratherthan the younger generation,
seem to be more focused onbuilding hobbies and using work
to support their lives, which Ithink is an interesting shift
that makes companies rethinktheir benefits.
So if in the past, you wouldimplement company holidays, for
(17:55):
instance, or gym membershipspaid by the company, these are
really perks that Gen Z, forinstance, don't seem to enjoy
that much.
So they don't want to be forcedto come to a company event.
They want to do what they wantto do in their own time.
So these are slight shifts thatHR managers need to do when
(18:16):
they consider their bonuses ortheir packages that they're
building for employees.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, 100%, and from experience I couldn't agree more
.
I'm a zillennial, I think theycall me.
I was born in 97.
So I'm like on the cusp ofmillennial and Gen Z, and that's
exactly it.
We don't just want to work andbuild a career, we want to
actually enjoy life while we'redoing it.
And having the choice to do ourown things is huge and it's
(18:43):
very important.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
So do you feel like all of these remarks that I've
made about Gen Z?
Do they speak to you as aperson?
Do you feel like as azillennial, they may refer to
you as well.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
At the beginning.
It was very interesting for meto bring the perspective of new
employees and companies,especially in consultancy,
because I do offer consultancyto companies that are trying to
bring in younger workers thathave difficulties with the young
workforce, and almost allcompanies A want to bring in
younger workers and B they havedifficulties with the younger
(19:27):
workforce and there's thisintergenerational conflict that
happens across organizations.
Something I've kept hearing iswe can't work with these younger
employees.
It's not that you can't workwith them.
You need to find the right wayto mentor them and to work with
(19:49):
them, and one way is definitelygamification that we talked
about at the beginning of theinterview.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, 100%.
And I've been somewhat lucky inmy career experience because
all my employers have beenrelatively young.
We've had a maximum of like aneight-year age difference and
now within Lean Discovery Groupwe're all within five years of
each other, so we kind ofunderstand each other and how we
(20:17):
work, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This is indeed important when one builds
multi-generational teams.
My research shows that it'sgood to have the team leader be
maybe like a Gen X or an oldermillennial, because if you have
a boomer as a team leader,there's very little chance that
they will work well with, say,gen Z.
(20:43):
But then if you have a teamleader, that Gen X, that person
can communicate with both theolder generations and the
younger generations, and whenyou want to build that sort of
team, you want to bringeveryone's capabilities together
.
So of course boomers will havemore experience and that
experience needs to be used in agood way.
(21:05):
But then Gen Z would come inwith all these fresh ideas, with
all the technology, with theflexibility and adaptability.
So it's the new way of doingthings, and merging these things
together is really where thesecret sauce of business is.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I've just actually looked atthe time and we are running a
bit behind, but I do have acouple more questions before we
go.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation, by the way.
So, in terms of your business,if we were to sit down again in
12 months time and everythinghas gone right, completely right
(21:46):
, what would your business looklike then, and what has changed?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think it's difficult to say at this time,
and I'll tell you why.
In the past, if you would haveasked me pre-pandemic, I would
have given you five year plans,10 year plans, kpis, everything
that we've learned in businessschool and everything that I
teach as a professor ofleadership at management and
management.
(22:13):
But the world has changed and,no matter how much we like to
use these five year plans and soon, I don't think it's
something we can do right now.
The world is changing so fast,technology is changing so fast.
We need to be on our feet andevery time, just see what's the
(22:36):
next thing that we need to do.
It's difficult right now, in thepresent time, especially with
the global economic crisis thatis looming.
Arms conflict everywhere I'm inRomania now, there's an arms
conflict next.
So you need to be cognizant ofall of these things and find
your stepping as you go, whichis super interesting, because
(23:01):
it's a time for leaders, andI'll explain this in a few
seconds that we have left.
There are times in business forleaders and there are times for
managers.
Leaders orchestrate the growthwell as managers manage the
business.
Yeah, you can ask a manager thefive year plans and they need
to keep things afloat, but whenthere is so much change that is
(23:24):
coming, you need leaders tonavigate the storms, and I feel
like that's what we're doing nowall of us that are business
leaders.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, 100%, and I appreciate that answer.
Thank you, and before we go,what if you could give one piece
of advice to other businessowners looking to?
Well, let's narrow it down.
If you could give advice to GenZ business owners looking to
succeed in this crazy worldwe're living in at the moment,
what would that advice be?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It's easy for business owners to especially
older ones eliminate this ideaof technological development, ai
development, and say it's goingto be something like social
media.
But it's not.
It's going to fundamentallychange the way we operate and
things.
So jump on this AI bandwagon,figure out how to ethically
(24:20):
implement it, figure out how itcan help your business make
autonomous systems and so on.
This AI revolution needs to betaken into consideration because
it's here to stay 100%.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I appreciate that so much and thank you for being on
the show.
I've really, really enjoyedthis conversation.
What is the best way for ourlisteners to get in touch with
Dr Karina Oches?
Professor, dr Karina Oches, ifyou have any offers for them or
if they're looking to takeadvantage of any of your
services.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Of course I do, as I said, consultancy and speaking
services, guest lectures onvarious topics.
My website isdrkarinaocchishcom with the DR.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
You can find me on all socialmedia, so look for me on
drkarinaocchishcom and you'llfind many resources on next
(25:17):
generation leadership,multi-generational leadership or
how to lead GNC.
Thank you, Amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thank you so much for your time today, thank you.
Hey folks, welcome back to the growing Lean podcast
sponsored by Lean DiscoveryGroup, an award-winning software
development firm based out ofVirginia.
This is your host, dylan Burke,also known as Dege, and I'm
happy to be here today withProfessor Dr Karina Oches, gen Z
, expert, professor ofLeadership and Management and
CEO at KO SciFi Branding.
(00:24):
Welcome.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello Dege, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Yes, it's my pleasure .
So, to get us started, can youtell us a little bit about your
background and history and howyou ended up doing what you do
today?
Speaker 2 (00:40):
So, as you said and thank you for that lovely
introduction I'm a Gen Z expertand I'm also a professor of
leadership and management.
I offer consultancy programs,speaking services and
educational programs forcompanies, institutional bodies
as well as internationalorganizations.
I have clients from all overthe four continents and I've
(01:03):
started doing public speakingand consultancy roughly a decade
ago in the United States.
Right now, I'm really focusingon next generation leadership
and Gen Z in the form of, asI've said, consultancy and
speaking services.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Okay, that's amazing, and can you tell me a little
bit more about the business?
What's your overall strategy?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I guess when you do business, especially in
educational programs and inconsultancy leadership
consultancy you always want tolook at what's ahead.
So I try to do research and beyears ahead to see what's coming
.
But then again you also need tobe ready to implement what's
coming, not too early, eventhough you want to be an early
(01:49):
adopter.
And then the third thing is,since I work with clients from
all over the world, so over thefour continents, I need to have
cultural awareness of theirmilieu, because sometimes the
leadership strategies that mightwork in the US or in Europe
might not work in Africa, forinstance.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
And when did you start thebusiness?
When did you make this yourbaby?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
As I said, I started roughly a decade ago and I've
started with personal branding.
This was before branding was athing, so I wrote a book on
personal branding.
It became a best seller.
This was written together withBrian Tracy.
Then I started speaking allover the world, including TEDx,
about this.
But right now, the brandinglandscape, for instance, is
(02:42):
really changing with theimplementation of AI.
So is leadership.
So, as I said, I'm alwaystrying to be ahead of the curve.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Okay, amazing.
And, as you mentioned, it'schanging with AI.
Can you tell me a little bitmore about that?
How has that impacted you andyour business?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The AI revolution is really transforming industries
and it's reshaping the way wework, and I've been getting more
and more clients that areworried about how AI will change
their businesses, the way theywork, the way they interact with
their employees.
So really, now we're looking atthe ways in which leadership
(03:22):
can help, in which AI can worktogether with leaders, and we're
looking at the giants in thissense.
We've seen IBM do this, we'veseen Salesforce do this, amazon
they all started using AI tohelp the leaders either make
better decisions or even createnew leaders, so they use it to
(03:44):
create funnels in theirbusinesses.
It's an interesting time we'reliving in.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Yeah, it's super interesting and I think the next
five to 10 years are going tobe somewhat crazy, but I'm
excited about it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Definitely.
We're definitely living in whatthe World Economic Forum would
call a polar crisis.
So we have several crises thatare happening all over the world
and they could always augmentand become one big crisis.
But for us, for entrepreneurs,for people who are A players and
trying to be ahead of the game,it's a good moment to challenge
(04:17):
ourselves and adapt ourselvesto what is new and what is
coming 100%, and how are youmaking use of AI within your
business and its operations?
It's very interesting becauseright now we're testing
everything.
So, as I've said, we're tryingto see how these funnels would
(04:39):
go.
How could we use AI to be thementor in the machine, if you
will?
So how could AI mentor a leader, for instance, at the beginning
of their journey, to becomebetter at what they do?
How would AI help leaders makedecisions based on data
(05:00):
pertaining to their HR resources?
And we're testing all of thesethings to see what works and
what doesn't work.
Of course, as you know, ai hashallucinations, so we have to
ensure there's always a personto see corrections and so on.
So I'm implementing this in mybusiness, but I'm also working
to see how this would go toadvise other businesses that I'm
(05:21):
working with.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Okay, 100%.
And over the last 10 yearssince you started, what have
been the biggest challenges orobstacles that you faced and how
did you overcome them?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I would say one interesting challenge was the
pandemic, as it was with all ofus.
First of all, as a speaker,everyone moved in the online
sphere, so of course, there'salways the question of how do
you convey the message to theaudience when you can't really
interact with the audience,especially since I was trained
(05:58):
in the way of speaking face toface with people.
That is one thing.
Then, pertaining to branding,for instance, if in the
beginning, we would have anarray of people, you would have
designers, you would have allthese programmers.
In time, everything is becomingmore user-friendly and now, with
(06:18):
AI, you don't really need tohave a whole team of brand
experts.
Just one consultant would befine that could work together
with the AI.
So there are all these shiftsthat are kind of changing the
way we used to do things.
And then, pertaining to myclients, I've had to consult in
companies in which they found itdifficult to work from home,
(06:41):
especially older founders whoreally liked being in the office
and seeing their entirepersonnel.
So it was also the mentalityshift that I had to work with my
clients on.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, 100%, is your business also remote?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Part of my business is remote.
I wear many different hats anddo many different things.
So if I would guest lecture, Icould do that remote or in
person.
If I do consultancy, I can doconsultancy again remote or in
person.
It depends on how the contractis structured.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah, 100%.
The reason I say that isbecause it's been such a shift
for me specifically.
I only work remote now and it'schanged my life.
It's so much easier.
But like the older generation,as you said, they struggle to
adapt.
Like my grandfather, forexample.
He's a prostitutor developerand he just obviously going to
(07:36):
sites and stuff you can't dothat remotely.
But having meetings with yourpartners and stuff he just
doesn't understand that you cando it over a video call.
He likes to be in person, helikes to shake hands and even
during the pandemic he was like78 years old and he would still
insist to meet in person,regardless of the risks, because
(07:56):
he believed in a handshake.
He believed that that's a man'sword and it's hard for them to
shift that mindset but it'sslowly adapting more and more
and it's definitely changing theface of how pretty much all
businesses operate.
It's quite interesting.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Especially culturally .
As you said, there are manycultures around the world for
whom having that handshake isvery important.
Then you have entire groups offounders that know best how to
communicate when they can seethe micro expressions.
In negotiations, it's sometimesbetter to be in person.
(08:37):
So it's interesting to see howwe're shifting our body language
and how we're starting to usewritten language, and maybe even
these emoticons, in order toconvey messages online.
But then another difficulty ishow do you get a whole array of
employees who are used to workin the office to be productive
(08:59):
at home, because they have toshift the entire way they have
been doing things.
They have been used to besupervised in the offices and
now they have to do moreself-supervised work.
So something I'm teaching isself-leadership, which is
something that I feel we haven'ttaught people sufficiently.
(09:21):
So self-leadership is how doyou teach yourself to become the
leader of your own life, andemployees really need to learn
this when they shift fromworking in the office to working
at home.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Yeah, 100%.
Some of our clients haveactually come to us with that
problem and what we've found isyou can somewhat gamify your
workforce if they're workingremotely, so they can kind of
interact with their employeeswithout talking to them, so they
can compete on tasks and salesand calls and that type of thing
(09:55):
.
And a lot of businesses havefound that that really helps is
having some sort of gamificationof the work-life balance,
because it gets lonely whenyou're working from home and if
you can see what your colleaguesare doing and kind of compete
with them, it mostly boostsproductivity and takes away that
(10:16):
loneliness a little bit.
So that's been a huge thingwhich is pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
It's very interesting that you mentioned this.
As part of my research on theyounger generation, I've seen
that gamification helps themtremendously, and especially in
the onboarding process, but then, while they become full-time
employees, they seem, as you'vesaid, to work better when
(10:44):
there's some sort ofgamifications, when tasks are
broken down, when steps areimplemented, which is something
that older generations ofmanagers never used to do.
So now you have that gap andthat clash between generations,
trying to merge them together,which is something I consult on.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, exactly, We've actually just implemented a new
onboarding system.
So instead of spending like oneto two hours running through
and like manually onboarding ournew hires, we have an automated
workflow so they can just go tothe next task.
We get notified.
They have any questions?
They can just let us know, andit's saving so much time and
(11:28):
it's making the whole processjust more efficient.
It's great.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
And so are you implementing also an evaluation
system through this gamificationprocess to see if they're fully
onboarded.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah, so we haven't automated that process, but once
they've onboarded we'll havelike some sort of interview with
them and they'll kind of gothrough what they like, what
they didn't like and where wecan improve.
And it's been super, superhelpful.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
the feedback Because something else that came across
from my research on the youngergenerations at work is precisely
also evaluating them Again, ifI devaluation, to see if they
were attentively reading, let'ssay, the materials during the
onboarding or looking at thevideos.
(12:17):
But I think the fact thatyou're moving towards these
systems of automated onboardingwill help companies tremendously
, especially since, as you verywell know, their retention rates
have changed in the sense thatin the past, we've had employees
being with their companies for40 years and now, with the gig
(12:41):
economy, we've seen a reductionof the employees, and my
research shows that employeesnow stay with an employer maybe
like around a year.
So obviously we need to onboardmore as employers and we need
systems ideally automatedsystems to do this, because
otherwise all of our middlemanagers will burn out, which is
(13:04):
again another phenomenon thatwe're seeing.
So definitely, both AI andother CRM systems can help in
these automatic onboarding,which I think is necessary at
the present time.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, 100%, and I think that's a great point that
you mentioned is high employeeturnover.
Especially with this digitalworld that we've discussed and
remote working, it's veryimportant to have systems in
place to make your employeeshappy and want to stay with the
company for long, because peopledo turn over so quickly, and
I've seen it with my previousjobs that I've been in.
(13:39):
It's not that I was entirelyunhappy Either the pay wasn't
right or there was some toxicleadership in there.
So I think it's super importantto find the right balance to
make your employees happy andwant to stay, and having the
right technology in place candefinitely assist in that.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I agree, and also as a manager, sometimes it's not
even about making the employeeshappy at some point, but I agree
with what you're saying.
But the new reality is thatthere's this high employee
turnover.
So, rather than trying to forcethe life cycle of employees,
(14:24):
it's good to be prepared and seeokay, if someone leaves, how do
they leave things, so the nextperson can jump right in.
But another thing that managerscould focus now is for them to
rethink, to completely rethinkthe way tasks look like, because
in the past, employees used todo a little bit of everything
(14:48):
and everything of what is needed, and now I think employees are
coming in with differentexpectations.
They want everything to be aclear cut, and this is something
that older managers were notused to.
So now they have to go to theentire job descriptions, make
realistic job descriptions andthen rework through their entire
processes to see how they canexplain this to an individual,
(15:13):
which is again a shift in whichI think various autonomous
systems could help.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
I've actually experienced that myself.
So I think it's a bit of aculture thing, because I'm from
South Africa and when you get,when you start a job in South
Africa, you're kind of like toldwhat to do and how to do it and
you trained to do it.
And when I signed this new rolefor Lean Discovery Group, I was
kind of brought in and that'swhat I expected.
(15:40):
And I was a little bit likeworried in the beginning because
I didn't have much guidance.
But then I did a bit ofresearch and that's just how
people work in America.
Firstly, they want you to thinkon your feet.
They want to see how you woulddo jobs, see if you can do it
differently and better ratherthan staying the same, if that
(16:01):
makes sense.
And that's been superbeneficial to me and it was a
huge learning curve and I'mreally glad that it happened.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It is a system that I prefer, having people think on
their feet and see if there's anew way of doing things.
What I found is this doesn'twork with the younger
generations at all.
Of course, that would not beyour case, since this was not
your first job.
But with the youngergenerations for instance Gen Z,
who are now maybe having theirfirst or second job they expect
(16:33):
to have these onboardingprograms in which they know,
step by step, what they need todo.
I suppose somewhere this isunderstandable, since they're
very young.
This is their first job andthey're trying to understand how
the world works Rather than.
This way of thinking on one'sfeet seems to be something that
they really run away from, andthey think that this is the
(16:55):
reason why they're burnt out.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
It's a super interesting worldhow things are changing at the
moment.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
And even the work-life balance concept at the
moment.
In the past, gen X and Boomersthey gave everything to their
jobs.
Now, with the rise ofmillennials, we've seen this
concept of work-life balance andtrying to build a life rather
than a hustle.
We're seeing hustle culture beconfided to, let's say, the
(17:30):
entrepreneurs or the SiliconValley.
Groups of entrepreneurs, ratherthan the younger generation,
seem to be more focused onbuilding hobbies and using work
to support their lives, which Ithink is an interesting shift
that makes companies rethinktheir benefits.
So if in the past, you wouldimplement company holidays, for
(17:55):
instance, or gym membershipspaid by the company, these are
really perks that Gen Z, forinstance, don't seem to enjoy
that much.
So they don't want to be forcedto come to a company event.
They want to do what they wantto do in their own time.
So these are slight shifts thatHR managers need to do when
(18:16):
they consider their bonuses ortheir packages that they're
building for employees.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, 100%, and from experience I couldn't agree more
.
I'm a zillennial, I think theycall me.
I was born in 97.
So I'm like on the cusp ofmillennial and Gen Z, and that's
exactly it.
We don't just want to work andbuild a career, we want to
actually enjoy life while we'redoing it.
And having the choice to do ourown things is huge and it's
(18:43):
very important.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
So do you feel like all of these remarks that I've
made about Gen Z?
Do they speak to you as aperson?
Do you feel like as azillennial, they may refer to
you as well.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, 100%, 100%.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
At the beginning.
It was very interesting for meto bring the perspective of new
employees and companies,especially in consultancy,
because I do offer consultancyto companies that are trying to
bring in younger workers thathave difficulties with the young
workforce, and almost allcompanies A want to bring in
younger workers and B they havedifficulties with the younger
(19:27):
workforce and there's thisintergenerational conflict that
happens across organizations.
Something I've kept hearing iswe can't work with these younger
employees.
It's not that you can't workwith them.
You need to find the right wayto mentor them and to work with
(19:49):
them, and one way is definitelygamification that we talked
about at the beginning of theinterview.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah, 100%.
And I've been somewhat lucky inmy career experience because
all my employers have beenrelatively young.
We've had a maximum of like aneight-year age difference and
now within Lean Discovery Groupwe're all within five years of
each other, so we kind ofunderstand each other and how we
(20:17):
work, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
This is indeed important when one builds
multi-generational teams.
My research shows that it'sgood to have the team leader be
maybe like a Gen X or an oldermillennial, because if you have
a boomer as a team leader,there's very little chance that
they will work well with, say,gen Z.
(20:43):
But then if you have a teamleader, that Gen X, that person
can communicate with both theolder generations and the
younger generations, and whenyou want to build that sort of
team, you want to bringeveryone's capabilities together
.
So of course boomers will havemore experience and that
experience needs to be used in agood way.
(21:05):
But then Gen Z would come inwith all these fresh ideas, with
all the technology, with theflexibility and adaptability.
So it's the new way of doingthings, and merging these things
together is really where thesecret sauce of business is.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I've just actually looked atthe time and we are running a
bit behind, but I do have acouple more questions before we
go.
I've really enjoyed thisconversation, by the way.
So, in terms of your business,if we were to sit down again in
12 months time and everythinghas gone right, completely right
(21:46):
, what would your business looklike then, and what has changed?
Speaker 2 (21:53):
I think it's difficult to say at this time,
and I'll tell you why.
In the past, if you would haveasked me pre-pandemic, I would
have given you five year plans,10 year plans, kpis, everything
that we've learned in businessschool and everything that I
teach as a professor ofleadership at management and
management.
(22:13):
But the world has changed and,no matter how much we like to
use these five year plans and soon, I don't think it's
something we can do right now.
The world is changing so fast,technology is changing so fast.
We need to be on our feet andevery time, just see what's the
(22:36):
next thing that we need to do.
It's difficult right now, in thepresent time, especially with
the global economic crisis thatis looming.
Arms conflict everywhere I'm inRomania now, there's an arms
conflict next.
So you need to be cognizant ofall of these things and find
your stepping as you go, whichis super interesting, because
(23:01):
it's a time for leaders, andI'll explain this in a few
seconds that we have left.
There are times in business forleaders and there are times for
managers.
Leaders orchestrate the growthwell as managers manage the
business.
Yeah, you can ask a manager thefive year plans and they need
to keep things afloat, but whenthere is so much change that is
(23:24):
coming, you need leaders tonavigate the storms, and I feel
like that's what we're doing nowall of us that are business
leaders.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, 100%, and I appreciate that answer.
Thank you, and before we go,what if you could give one piece
of advice to other businessowners looking to?
Well, let's narrow it down.
If you could give advice to GenZ business owners looking to
succeed in this crazy worldwe're living in at the moment,
what would that advice be?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
It's easy for business owners to especially
older ones eliminate this ideaof technological development, ai
development, and say it's goingto be something like social
media.
But it's not.
It's going to fundamentallychange the way we operate and
things.
So jump on this AI bandwagon,figure out how to ethically
(24:20):
implement it, figure out how itcan help your business make
autonomous systems and so on.
This AI revolution needs to betaken into consideration because
it's here to stay 100%.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
I appreciate that so much and thank you for being on
the show.
I've really, really enjoyedthis conversation.
What is the best way for ourlisteners to get in touch with
Dr Karina Oches?
Professor, dr Karina Oches, ifyou have any offers for them or
if they're looking to takeadvantage of any of your
services.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Of course I do, as I said, consultancy and speaking
services, guest lectures onvarious topics.
My website isdrkarinaocchishcom with the DR.
You can find me on LinkedIn.
You can find me on all socialmedia, so look for me on
drkarinaocchishcom and you'llfind many resources on next
(25:17):
generation leadership,multi-generational leadership or
how to lead GNC.
Thank you, Amazing, amazing.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thank you so much for your time today, thank you.
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