July 14, 2025 • 51 mins
In this powerful and soul-nourishing conversation, Dr. Nat Green is joined by grief and transformation expert Dr. Michelle Peticolas.
Dr. Michelle is an international bestselling author, award-winning filmmaker, and life transformation coach, and joins us to share her journey and expertise. Learn about Dr. Michelle's unique S.E.R.V.E. framework designed to help you transform complex grief into a path for achieving your soul's purpose. Explore powerful insights on dealing with grief, reconnecting with your true self, and living a life free of regrets.
Together, they explore how grief — especially early childhood and intergenerational trauma — can manifest in the body, and how reconnecting to our physical and emotional selves is key to true healing and post-traumatic growth.
Dr. Michelle shares her personal story of feeling abandoned by her father at the age of two and how that shaped a lifetime of disconnection from her body and emotions. She opens up about people-pleasing, spiritual practice, body-based rituals, and the transformative power of storytelling. They also discuss the "three brains" (head, heart, and gut), curiosity as a healing force, and why your trauma — big or small — is always valid.
Whether you've experienced complex grief, early loss, or you're on the path of healing, this conversation is full of wisdom, compassion, and real-world practices that will inspire and empower.
This episode is packed with valuable advice for anyone looking to achieve post-traumatic growth and live a life filled with purpose, self-awareness, and deep inner peace. Listen in for inspiring stories, practical strategies, and a wealth of wisdom on navigating through trauma and beyond.
This episode covers:
- Why grief doesn't just live in the mind but also in the body, and how to start listening to its messages
- The difference between complex grief and “normal” grief
- Dr. Michelle’s morning ritual to reconnect with her body
- The role of people-pleasing and how it can become a hidden superpower and a gift
- How storytelling heals, — and crafting a new ending — is a transformative process and helps reframe the past
- Many trauma survivors "live in their heads" as a coping mechanism. True healing involves reconnecting all three of the — head (logic), heart (emotion), and gut (intuition) — to restore wholeness.
- The three most important values for healing and growth: peace, faith, and excellence
- How spiritual practice supports post-traumatic growth
- Why curiosity and willingness are essential qualities for transformation.
🔗 Connect with Michelle:
- Take the Complex Grief Checklist: www.complexchecklist.com
- Facebook:
- LinkedIn:
- Website:
If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen
Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
(01:29):
I am super excited today andgrateful to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure towelcome a lovely lady who I met
last year in some podcasttraining.
Actually.
She has experienced some traumaand adversity throughout her
life and has agreed to come andchat with us today.
(01:51):
About her personal and herprofessional experience and has
beautifully offered to share herwisdom with us.
So let me start by welcoming Dr.
Michelle Peticolas.
Dr.
Michelle is an internationalbestselling author of Step Into
Your Brilliance, as well asseveral other books.
She's the award-winningfilmmaker of Secrets of Life and
(02:14):
Death, a professional speakerand life transformation coach.
Dr.
Michelle helps high achievingmidlife women who have been
thrown off track by a major lossto release their complex grief
and transmute it into fuel forachieving their soul's purpose.
Using her unique frameworkS.E.R.V.E., she guides her
(02:35):
clients through their griefhealing, mindreset, and
reconnection to their authenticbrilliance.
So let me welcome Dr.
Michelle.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (02:45):
Thank you Nat.
It is my pleasure to be here.
Dr Nat Green (02:50):
It's an absolute delight to finally catch up
again,'cause I know it's been alittle while.
So I know that I gave a briefintroduction, but could we start
with you giving us a bit more ofan intro of who you are and what
you do in the world?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (03:06):
I would be happy to.
So a lot of people ask me why Iwork.
With people around grief, whatcompels me to do that?
Mm, well, it goes back to anexperience I've had most of my
life about waking up in themorning in a state of panic and
(03:31):
fear.
Mm, and this what I used tohandle it with was to jump outta
my bed right away and get onwith my life.
But I started to think at onepoint that maybe in a past life
I had been murdered in my sleep.
Dr Nat Green (03:47):
Oh my goodness.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (03:48):
That's what I thought.
But then later on when I met mysecond husband, when we were
first getting together, Irealized I had abandonment
issues.
Whoa.
Well, certainly my first husbandabandoned me for another woman.
(04:09):
But then I realized that it wentall the way back to when I was
two years old and I had bondedwith my father, and then he was
transferred by the US Army toJapan.
And for a 2-year-old, eventhough it wasn't a long time, it
was traumatic and my mother wasnot able to step up and help me
(04:31):
out because she was busy movinga household and three kids to
Japan.
Mm.
So the time was long enough thatI decided I lost my trust in my
father.
Mm-hmm.
In love and in myself.
And I decided to take life intomy own hands.
(04:52):
And I made an agreement with theworld that I would give people
what they wanted, and in returnI would get the attention that I
craved.
Mm.
And so I became, I guess whatyou could call a people pleaser.
Dr Nat Green (05:06):
Yes.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (05:07):
And Nat, it worked really well for many
years.
Worked really well in school andwent all the way to the PhD.
Mm-hmm.
I can imagine accumulating thoseawards and those recognitions.
Yes.
And then it stopped workingwell.
Okay.
It was like the universe hadconspired to wake me up.
(05:31):
Mm-hmm.
So when I met my currenthusband, I realized I had an
issue and I actually did someearly childhood program healing.
And what really, really woke meup was when my mother was dying.
Okay.
First my father died, and thensix months later my mother was
(05:52):
dying of breast cancer and Iwent back home to help her
finish up business.
She was.
A toy designer.
She and my aunt went to majortoy companies in New York City
and sold their designs.
So in some ways she was like theposter child for living your
(06:12):
life.
Passion,
Dr Nat Green (06:13):
absolutely amazing.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (06:16):
But I didn't appreciate that back
then.
Anyway, I was in her studiogoing through her papers, and I
picked up one, it was one of herdesigns, a Xerox copy.
Really.
And I handed it to her and Isaid, do you need this anymore?
And she looked at it.
She said, uhoh, I guess I'llnever finish that project.
(06:43):
Oh, her words pierced my heart.
Dr Nat Green (06:46):
Oh, they would've,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (06:46):
It just gave me goosebumps.
Yeah.
In that moment, Nat, Iunderstood what deadline really
meant.
Dr Nat Green (06:55):
Mm.
That's a really powerful Yeah.
Moment for sure.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:01):
It was a powerful moment.
Dr Nat Green (07:03):
Life changing.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:05):
It was, unfortuNatly, my emotions were
just beginning to come onlineagain.
I tamped them down when I wastwo years old.
Yeah.
And I was afraid, so I took thepaper back and I said, we don't
need to deal with this rightnow.
That moment, Nat, that moment Icraved with my mother all my
(07:31):
life.
That close intimacy was lostforever.
She died two weeks later,
Dr Nat Green (07:42):
Oh dear,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:44):
but it woke me up.
Her little regret became my hugeregret.
Okay.
And what I realized is that ifshe who was my poster child for
living your passion could haveregrets.
Where did that leave me?
The people pleaser.
(08:06):
I made up my mind right then andthere.
I would not live my life withregrets.
I.
Dr Nat Green (08:14):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (08:15):
And I decided I was gonna make a film
series, well, actually decided Iwas gonna make a film about
death and it became a series.
Ah.
But what I wanted to do was towake other people up to this
life and that it's short andthat you never know when it's
gonna end.
And if you don't live it, you'regonna end up with regrets.
(08:37):
Hmm.
And then that got me intohospice.
And then I got into, graduallyinto realizing that I had this
calling for grief and loss.
I'm telling you, I just went toa party, um, on 4th of July for,
you know, the United States.
And people were telling metheir, their, their life
stories, their trauma.
(08:59):
I was like, why do I have a signon me?
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (09:02):
Normally I'm the one that has that sign all over
my head when I go out.
It's like, really?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (09:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, it is like, they justknow, it's like their heart
knows that I can hold a spacefor them.
Mm-hmm.
And what a powerful gift yourmom gave you unknowingly.
You were able to do what so manypeople never get the chance to
realize, because you're right.
(09:27):
There's nothing worse than if wewere on our deathbed or in our
last days to have all theseregrets of unfinished things and
things we couldn't undo.
Yeah.
Um, there was a, a book by the,the woman, Bronnie Ware.
I think she was Australian,wasn't she?
(09:47):
She wrote The Five Regrets ofthe Dying, and the number one
regret was, and it was, it'sBronny, not Bonnie, but Bronny
Ware.
And she wrote this book, fiveRegrets of the Dying.
And the number one regret is notliving a life true to yourself.
Living the life everybody elsewants for you, but not the life
(10:07):
you want.
Dr Nat Green (10:08):
So tell me then, Michelle, as a reformed people
pleaser, I'm assuming now, soliving your life as a people
pleaser, then having this hugerealization that life is short.
You can't live with regrets, soyou have to live in the moment
and live every minute of theday.
(10:30):
Did that change your peoplepleasing pattern?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (10:34):
Well, it is deeply embedded, but it has
made me more aware mm-hmm.
Of that tendency to pleaseothers.
Yeah.
And to recognize when I'm doingtoo much.
To pull back and to say no, andto learn to say no.
Dr Nat Green (10:53):
Excellent.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (10:53):
And, but it's hard because, you know,
we're women, so nevermind.
Just the people pleasing we'rewomen.
And women are taught to be ofservice to people, aren't they?
Dr Nat Green (11:02):
Absolutely.
And then working in the areathat you work, it's very much
around giving, but as you said,we can please people, but it's
also around having those clearboundaries, isn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:15):
Well, and, and because I want my
clients to get the results.
Mm-hmm.
I.
That's what my focus is.
And so I don't necessarily givethem what they want.
I give them what they need.
Yes.
And, and what is going to movethem forward.
And that I've developed over anumber of years of doing
coaching that, I have developedtools that are really effective
(11:39):
for helping people break throughtheir emotional blocks and
change their thoughts.
Dr Nat Green (11:47):
Which is as we know, so needed, isn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:51):
It is so needed
Dr Nat Green (11:53):
and particularly so you are working mainly now in
grief and loss?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:58):
So I work with complex grief.
Mm-hmm.
People ask, well, what's complexgrief?
Like me people have wounds andtrauma earlier in their life
that's never been healed.
For me, it was that abandonmentfrom my father was never healed.
And so when I had the loss of myparents, it magnified the
(12:24):
intensity of the loss.
It's like all the other lossesthat were never resolved come
bubbling up to the top.
Yes.
And and they make it morecomplex and make it more
difficult.
And some people, they, they canget stuck.
Yeah.
I had a woman, a client who cameto me.
We'll call her Agnes.
(12:44):
Yep.
She had been grieving the lossof her husband for 20 years, 20.
When I first saw her tearsrolling down her cheeks, I'm
like, 20 years.
Well, it turned out she hadexperienced abandonment three
times before she ever met herhusband.
Mm.
First her father left her, thenher grandmother died.
(13:07):
Her mother was, was notavailable, was not responsible.
Mm.
And so when she met her husband,he was like the answer her, the
solution to her abandonment.
And then he died young.
Oh, goodness.
And it was like, oh.
And when I met her, she was onher way to abandonment number
five, because her son remindedher of her husband.
(13:30):
And every time she saw him, shewould cry.
Dr Nat Green (13:36):
So many layers.
So many layers.
Layers and layers and layers topeel away when you're working
with someone With so manycompounded issues.
Yeah,
Dr Michelle Peticola (13:47):
compounded issues.
But here's the thing is that ifyou have an issue around
abandonment, and it's probablyany kind of little complex
mm-hmm.
Is that it will keep on, you'llkeep on attracting it to
yourself.
Until you finally face it andwork on it.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (14:03):
Yeah.
And it, it's a lot of that whatwe call shadow work, isn't it?
It's that we have to face, youhave to face the shadow and
shadow hidden away there becauseif we don't face the shadows and
the things that are in the dark,we're gonna keep getting more of
that until we get that lesson.
Really
Dr Michelle Peticolas (14:20):
That's, isn't it?
Yep.
That's really true.
That's really true.
Dr Nat Green (14:24):
Yeah.
So tell me a bit more then abouthow that works when you're
working with someone like Agnes.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (14:33):
So I have a system, which has the name
serve.
So instead of letting, havinggrief overwhelm you, stop you in
your life, does it destroy yourlife.
You let it serve you and you letit serve you.
By taking each of those lettersand, it corresponds to an
(14:55):
action.
S means surrender means you needto surrender to your emotions.
Most of the people that I runinto when I first meet them,
they have a hard time allowingtheir feelings.
Either they have learned torepress them.
Which a lot of us in the UnitedStates are taught, taught how to
repress our feelings.
Dr Nat Green (15:16):
I don't think it's just the United States,
Michelle.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (15:18):
No, probably not.
But I, I'm not pretending toknow all of the world.
No.
But, so that, so we repress ourfeelings'cause it, it's not
acceptable.
Mm-hmm.
And or we are terrified that ifwe allow our feelings, that we
will we'll become swamped.
That we will never get out ofthe dark hole.
(15:40):
Yes.
So I teach my clients how torelease any emotion in two
minutes or less.
Dr Nat Green (15:47):
In two minutes.
Yes.
Yes.
That's powerful like magic.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (15:53):
It's, it's, it, it is.
And that's what I do.
And once they learn how to dothat.
They feel empowered and thenthey allow themselves to grieve.
And that was what happened toAgnes was she had actually
never, never really fullyallowed herself to grieve.
When she would grieve, she wouldbecome swamped in the grief.
(16:14):
Yeah, because the mind likes tojump in.
And tell us these terriblethings and recycle the grief
over and over and over again.
So we have to stop that patternand once you stop that pattern
and allow yourself to actuallyrelease the emotion and just the
(16:34):
emotion without the mindset, itreally will release in two
minutes or less.
Dr Nat Green (16:39):
That permission is really, really important.
So acknowledging it andpermission, and you know, I know
a lot of, you know, a lot of ourlisteners are people who've been
through trauma, but with thattrauma is very much grief and
often compounded grief that'sbuilt up and built up.
And there's that fear of, if Iactually deal with it, I won't
(17:03):
cope.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (17:04):
I'll never come back.
I, I'll get stuck in there andI'll never come back.
And right now I'm working with aclient who has, depression and
she's terrified of allowing herfeelings because she's afraid
that she'll fall into that holeand not be able to get out.
Dr Nat Green (17:21):
And it's a real feeling.
We've that a lot.
Yeah.
And it's, it's understandable,isn't it, that it Totally, that
you've been through so much thatyou try to, to contain it
because it's, you know.
Like a river that will not stopflowing.
I remember when my mum passedaway and I was in my twenties
and we knew, you know, she wasdying, but I still remember my
(17:44):
sister six years younger thanme, and I was crying yet again
because my mum was dying and Iwas very.
Difficult experience, but Iremember my sister's words very
clearly.
Oh, you've cried enough.
You've cried a river of tearsfor goodness sake.
How much more can you cry?
And I thought, oh, okay.
(18:05):
So it was almost that not beingallowed to continue to cry.
I still did.
Right.
Because I couldn't help it atthe time.
Right,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:14):
right, right, right.
Yeah.
But again, those,
Dr Nat Green (18:16):
those words.
Stick with us.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:18):
Yeah.
Yes.
Find that.
Yes, it's there.
That's right.
It's, it's definitely there.
And it, and then of course wemodel after our parents.
So if your father was reallystrong and, and stiff upper lip
or whatever and, and would notallow us feelings, we will,
we'll take our, our lessonsfrom, from our parents.
And so that happens.
Dr Nat Green (18:37):
Absolutely.
So sorry I waylaid you, I tookyou on.
Oh, no, no.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:42):
So, so the E is engage all loss and it
doesn't have to just be lossfrom death involves the loss of
relationships and connections.
Mm-hmm.
We forget, especially in theUnited States, that we are
social.
(19:04):
Beings.
Yes.
And that we are literally wiredto bond with other people.
Mm-hmm.
So when you lose somebody,you're triggering a survival
response in your body.
A fight, flee, freeze.
Yes.
Literally triggers the samechemicals in your body.
Mm-hmm.
Because we survive better incommunity.
(19:27):
So one of the first things Ihave to work with after we get
through the emotions isreconnecting my clients to their
community, to other people.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if they've lostsomebody that they're really
close to a lot, you know, in theUnited States it's like, you
know, it's just, the pair, thehusband and the wife, and, and
(19:48):
then the rest of the people, areirrelevant.
And then you lose that personand suddenly you realize that
you were all alone.
And you have to reach out topeople and make new connections.
So that's, that's the E is toengage with other people and to
create that, that container ofsupport.
(20:08):
I.
So then the R is reframe andthis is also hugely important.
Because when we go into grief,the mind works over time to try
and make sense of things.
And oftentimes has a verynegative mindset about what your
prospects are for your future.
(20:28):
Mm-hmm.
And it can really.
And, and it'll remind you of allthe things that you did wrong.
And shouldn't you have told yourhusband or your spouse that they
were sick and shouldn't you havedone more and shouldn't you have
shown them how much you lovethem and all that.
You know, it goes on and on andon.
And, so we have to work on themindset.
'cause it can drive you crazy.
(20:50):
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's a brilliant brain.
It's really useful, but it needsto be tamed.
Yes.
It needs, needs to be minded.
Mm.
So that's reframe.
And we actually go so far as toreframe the person's whole life,
okay.
So that they look at everythingand see how everything has moved
(21:11):
forward to this point in theirlife, and actually provides the
foundations and the clues towhere you're going.
Hmm.
And so the ultimate after thatis The next one V is vision.
What is it that you want in yourlife?
Where do you wanna go next?
(21:33):
And this is so important, Nat.
Yeah.
Because I have met women who gotstuck in the grief, and that
became their new identity.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I'm the widow who lost thelove of my life.
Yeah.
And that became their wholesense of who they were.
Mm-hmm.
And they told their stories andthey reveled it in it, and they,
you know, and they enjoyed thespecial perks that come from
(21:55):
being the grieving widow.
Mm.
But they're like stuck in thepast.
Yes.
So vision is v
Dr Nat Green (22:04):
a very important part.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (22:06):
Very important is to, to get the
client moving forward into wherethey're going next.
Yeah.
And then the final one isanother E and that is to
express.
So it's not enough to have avision.
You have to materialize it, youhave to bring it into being, and
you do that by expressing it, ofputting it into, to the world.
(22:26):
Either in, you know, like me, Iput it into film.
Or it could be dance, or itcould be a book, or it could be
a, a program, some way in whichit gets manifest and helps other
people in the world becausethat's what we're here for.
Dr Nat Green (22:45):
I love that so much and really hearing you talk
about it and, and such clear.
Parts and that it moves forwardand that they know who they are
and who they were and who theyneed to be.
Now is so important, andparticularly with the listeners
(23:06):
who have been through trauma.
We know that a lot of peoplewho've been through trauma want
to go back to who they used tobe before their trauma
Dr Michelle Peticolas (23:15):
uhhuh.
That makes sense.
Dr Nat Green (23:17):
We hear that so often, but the reality is we
can't be that person again.
Because we have the learningsand the lessons and the
experiences as a result of whatwe've been through, that help
shape us and they can, as you'vesaid, they can be a really great
gift because then we can see thevalue, what's important to us,
(23:40):
what really matters like you didwith that moment in your life
with your mom.
Yeah.
It helped shape everything youdid moving forward.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (23:50):
It did.
It really did.
Dr Nat Green (23:52):
Yeah.
So knowing that you are coveringoff that identity of who they
are and who they need to be isreally powerful.
I love that.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (24:03):
Well, and I, I help them to see who they
really are.
Mm-hmm.
That part of themselves thatgives them goosebumps.
That excites them and providethem with that social support.
It's like I'm the initial socialsupport that helps to encourage
them to embrace.
(24:24):
Mm-hmm.
Their true feelings, their trueself, their true desires.
Dr Nat Green (24:29):
Yeah.
So let's go back to some of yourstory then.
So what were some of yourbiggest roadblocks or obstacles
that you faced during yourhealing journey?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (24:44):
Well, the first obstacle I had was that I
had shut down my feelings.
Now, not completely, because itturns out that I am super
sensitive, Nat.
Yeah.
I actually can feel otherpeople's feelings.
Mm-hmm.
If they have blocks in theirbody, I feel it in my body.
I'm super sensitive, but I,because of that trauma of having
(25:05):
my father disappear overnight.
I shut down my sensation and Ihung out in my head.
Any of you out there hang out inyour head?
Well, I loved my head.
I loved my brain.
It was so smart and it had somany great ideas and it was so
entertaining.
But it would be, it would takeeffort for me to get back into
(25:29):
my body.
Mm-hmm.
And so that was the first thingI had to learn was how to, to
feel.
And I, to this day, I have a, Ihave a morning ritual that
involves putting oil on my bodyand massaging it into my skin to
sensitize the nerve endings inmy skin.
Dr Nat Green (25:49):
Wow.
What a great way to reconnectwith yourself.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (25:53):
It is, it is really, it's exceptional.
And then of course, I do yogaand all sorts of other things.
Mm.
But it, it is a conscious effortfor me to stay in my body.
Mm.
To to remember it.
and to recognize it.
And acknowledge it.
And that is what I teach myclients because that is key to
healing grief is to, because thebody has so much wisdom.
Dr Nat Green (26:18):
Mm.
It certainly does.
And after we go through traumaor significant grief, we do.
Tend to disconnect.
Well, I always talk about thethree brains, the head, the
heart, and the gut.
And you gave a very greatexample around how you went into
your head because that wassafer.
(26:39):
Yeah, because it hurt.
Was too painful to feel.
Yep.
So your heart, braindisconnected.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (26:46):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (26:46):
And that gut brain, you said you used to be
really intuitive and could feelhow other people operated and
what was going on for them, butyou would've likely switched off
that gut brain as well becauseit was safer, and you stopped
trusting yourself, trustingothers.
And that's what happens when wego through something significant
(27:08):
and it's about reconnecting ourthree brains, the head, the
heart, and the gut.
So you've very beautifully
Dr Michelle Peticola (27:15):
identified that.
So this is the interestingthing, is that the gut was what
enabled me to suss out whatother people wanted from me.
Mm-hmm.
That's why I was so good at it.
I would go into a classroom, Iknew exactly what the teacher
wanted and I would give it tothem and they loved me.
Dr Nat Green (27:33):
I bet they did.
Worked right into your peoplepleasing ways, didn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (27:38):
Oh yeah, I just played right into it.
Dr Nat Green (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
So you were still connected, butnot necessarily not for reading
that,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (27:46):
not for me.
I wasn't connected to what Ineeded, you know, so, so, but
that, that is so part of theprocess of learning who you are
is recognizing that some of thethings that you see that you
think are detriments mightactually be attributes.
Mm.
That is, that the peoplepleasing also taught me skills
for being able to help myclients to really see them.
(28:09):
Mm.
And to, and to understand themand feel them.
So it, it's like it, there's alot of benefit in some of the
things that we, you know, wewanna discard them, but actually
they, we may be able to bringthem forward into our new
vision.
Dr Nat Green (28:25):
Oh, I'm a firm believer in that, that our
experiences teach us so much.
They are full of learnings andlessons and not all bad, that
they're almost that double-edgedsword.
It's like, well, yes, that'sthat shadow side, but what's the
other side?
How can I use that in a, in ahealthy, helpful way
Dr Michelle Peticolas (28:47):
But back to the heart, you know, you
talked about the three brainsand the heart.
So part of my problem was thatin becoming a people pleaser, I
had shut down my heart.
I'd shut down my heart with myfather.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to control what came tome.
And I believe that my firsthusband left me because he had
(29:11):
issues about not being loved byhis mother.
And there I was the reproductionof his mother.
'Cause I wasn't able to.
Love.
But I have done a lot of workaround that and I am much more
loving, much more aware of myheart.
I do a spiritual practice that'sall about love, that that is
emphasizes connecting to theheart.
Dr Nat Green (29:34):
Mm.
And you've touched on two bigthings that a lot of my podcast
guests have shared that are, Ibelieve, have shown themselves
throughout.
Just over a year that I've beenpodcasting have shown that
community is really important,as is some sort of spiritual
(29:59):
practice.
Doesn't have to be a religiouspractice, but some sort of
connection to something outsideourselves.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (30:07):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Very important.
Thank you for, for mentioningthat.
It was a big part of my healingwas, and I've been doing a
spiritual practice for over 40years, study with a teacher and,
reconnected to my body,reconnected to love.
(30:28):
That's how I was able to, tofind my current husband and be
able to connect with him at thatlevel.
Dr Nat Green (30:37):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
So how would you say theexperience that you've been
through in your life,particularly around the time
when your mum was about to passaway, how has that transformed
your perspective on life, onrelationships, on your personal
values?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (31:00):
It's, it's interesting.
I, uh.
I have told my story of mymother many times because I'm a
Toastmaster and I actuallyparticipated in some of the
contests and I have told thestory so many times that it has
changed my perspective of mymother.
(31:20):
It is healed.
It has healed my relationshipwith her and I understand her so
much better because of the workI, the early childhood work I
did, and because I believe thatstorytelling is healing, I.
Then when we tell our story,especially when you have to tell
a story as a speech and it needsto have a beginning, a middle,
(31:42):
and an end, you have tostructure it.
You know?
And I think that's why I havepeople tell their live story is
that they have a beginning, amiddle, and now what's gonna be
the end?
We gotta get a good ending,right?
We all like good endings
Dr Nat Green (31:55):
You can write your own ending.
I love that.
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (31:58):
Yes.
And you can write your ownending, but people don't know
that they can.
But once they learn, it's like,oh my gosh, I can have the
ending I want.
So that, that has been, a verypowerful, awakening for me is
realizing that, but I forgetexactly what your question was.
Do you remember, have I answeredit?
Dr Nat Green (32:18):
Yes, yes.
You've answered it.
It was, um, how else yourperspective on, and I think
you've done that as we've beentalking on relationships, you
sought relationships in adifferent way after that.
Yes.
And what about what's importantto you as far as your values go
as a result of what you've beenthrough?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (32:40):
Values such a, a funny word, isn't it?
It's.
my value from the get go, and Idon't, I must have gotten it
from my parents, was to be wellresponsible, but my teacher
taught me the, the three mostimportant values.
(33:02):
And that is, peace is to feelpeaceful within yourself.
Yeah.
That is to have that calm andpeacefulness and not do, um.
To get your life into like adrama story all the time.
Mm-hmm.
Which we sometimes do.
Yeah.
And then the next one is faith.
(33:22):
But it's not faith in areligion, it's faith in oneself.
It's trusting in yourself andyour own intuition and that you
are going in the right way.
Beautiful.
Right.
And then the third one, which Ilove because it fits with who I
am is excellence.
That is that.
(33:42):
Mm-hmm.
Everything that I engage in, Itry to do my very best.
Dr Nat Green (33:48):
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (33:49):
Not to be perfect, which of course I'm a
perfectionist, so I would tendto do that, but because Yes, I
hear you.
Because that is a value to me isto do my best.
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (34:05):
Mm.
So excellence, not perfection.
That's right.
Excellence not perfection.
Oh, very, very powerful values.
So peace, faith, and excellence.
Yeah.
Isn't it beautiful?
Yeah, very much so.
So, and this might lead into mynext question for you is really
around, and you've touched onthis already as well, are there
(34:28):
any specific qualities orpersonal attributes that you
would see as being.
Important for someone movingfrom trauma into post-traumatic
growth?
Dr Michelle Peticol (34:41):
Absolutely.
Number one, curiosity.
This will take you very, veryfar.
And this has taken me very, veryfar.
Yeah.
Is that my own curiosity aboutwhat is, oh, what's going on
inside of me?
Sometimes I'll have, you know,like a, a difficult time,
whatever it is, something that'supsetting me and part of my mind
is gonna be saying.
(35:02):
Oh, you know what?
I think my clients deal withthis.
I better take notes.
Mm, yes.
You know what I'm talking about,right?
Absolutely.
I love that.
My God.
It's like, oh, okay.
Thank you universe.
I needed to learn this.
Thank you.
Yes.
Now I,
Dr Nat Green (35:18):
yes.
We're never done learning arewe?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (35:20):
We're never done learning.
So curiosity about.
Instead of trying to repressyour feelings, being curious,
oh, this person just saidsomething that triggered me
being curious.
Mm-hmm.
Why was I, what, what was itabout that statement or that
person why?
Why did I get triggered by that?
(35:41):
What's underneath it Andcuriosity helps to step you out
of that reactivity Yes.
Into a different place.
Of course, I told you I washeady, so the, the head would
love to come in, sort of, yes.
Problem solve what that is.
But it's really helpful thatthat particular, and then of
course, for my clients is beingwilling to try things out.
(36:05):
Yes, you gotta be willingbecause I'm gonna ask you to do
stuff that you're gonna say, butif you just try it out and see
what happens, what's the result?
It will have a huge impact.
Dr Nat Green (36:19):
Mm.
So getting them to agree whenthey come in as your client,
that they're willing to give ita try.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (36:25):
That's right.
Well, It's part of the contract.
Yeah.
They have to, they have tofollow the program, and the
program has got very specificexercises that you need to do
to, to change.
Dr Nat Green (36:36):
Yeah.
And I would imagine that, youknow, as someone who's had fair
bit of grief in my life, thatthat's.
Part of it, isn't it?
That you need to be willing tocome in and give it a go, but
you're gonna be uncomfortable.
Yes.
You're not gonna like it one bitwhen you have to go outside your
(36:56):
comfort zone and and feel stuffthat hurts.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (37:01):
Yes.
So it's, somebody was using theword the other day, tolerance,
that you have to tolerate acertain amount of discomfort in
order to get to the next place.
Isn't that beautiful?
Dr Nat Green (37:13):
Hmm.
Yeah.
And as psychologists we wouldtalk about that window of
tolerance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what it's like when you'reoutside that, particularly after
trauma or grief, very similar.
'cause you know they'reinterwoven, aren't they?
A lot of the times, yes.
Under grief is always some layerof trauma that's unhealed or
(37:35):
unresolved.
That's
Dr Michelle Peticolas (37:36):
right.
and you know, sometimes thetrauma seems like a little
trauma.
I mean, you know, from theoutside my particular story
seems like minor, but that earlychildhood injury was huge and
they and psychologists have donestudies of children who go
through a traumatic experiencelike that.
(37:58):
And it has a huge impact on yourlife and it can reverberate
throughout your life.
So those of you out there who'vehad little traumas, don't beat
yourself up and say, what's thematter with you?
Look at this person.
They've had much bigger trauma.
What the hell's the matter withme?
No.
We all have our own journey andour own story.
Dr Nat Green (38:16):
That is really, really important.
You just nailed it because Ihear that a lot that, oh, but
mine's only a little T traumathat, you know, I dunno why I
feel like this.
And they're criticizing that.
Self-criticism is huge.
It's like, hang on a minute.
Yeah.
I throw that out the door.
We don't come in here with that.
(38:37):
It's every bit of, everyexperience you've had, if it
doesn't feel safe.
All right for you, whether it'sa little T or a Big T's,
irrelevant, we can't compareourselves to anyone else because
if it's feeling awful for you,there's a reason you have an
(39:01):
experience and a life ofexperiences that you bring.
You're not just the personstanding in the room or sitting
in the room right now.
You've got a lifetime ofexperiences, and as you've said.
Other experiences from ourparents, our grandparents that
have been handed down, thatintergenerational stuff,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (39:25):
that intergenerational stuff.
Dr Nat Green (39:27):
And you talked about waking every morning
thinking, oh, had you beenkilled in a past life?
I can imagine that would've gonethrough your head, particularly
when you're in your head all thetime.
Have I been through somethinglike that?
And.
Who knows, but it was your bodybecause we know that all our
experiences, good and bad, areheld in our nervous system.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (39:49):
That's it.
That's it.
And when you're two years old,you don't have the cognitive,
development to hold it in yourbrain.
So you hold it all in your body,and then you have no idea what's
going on because there's no,there's no interpretation.
You know, and your mind is liketrying to make sense of it, and
it's like.
(40:09):
Why?
Why am I, why am I feeling somuch anxiety when I wake up in
the morning?
Dr Nat Green (40:15):
Yeah.
And now you know, when you getthat perspective and you can see
it, you go, oh, of course mybody carried that.
My nervous system carried thatall these years and.
For you, your mom, for me.
There's been other things alongthe way that, that's almost the
excuse in inverted commas.
Now you can cry and grieve'causethere's a reason.
(40:38):
Yes.
But often it's like thefloodgates open and all the
other stuff that we've hiddenfor all these years comes out as
well, doesn't it?
It does.
It does.
And you would see that with yourclients.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (40:50):
Yes.
But for me it's a, I celebrateit, you know?
I say, oh, this is fantastic.
Oh, you're finally clearing thiswhole stuff out.
We're cleaning out the house.
Dr Nat Green (40:59):
Exactly.
Definitely
Dr Michelle Peticolas (41:03):
making space for a new life.
Dr Nat Green (41:05):
Exactly.
Making space, clearing it out.
And as you said, clearingclearinghouse.
I love it.
Oh, so if you were to give,share one thing.
That would help our listeners asthey navigate from trauma to
post-traumatic growth, whatwould it be?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (41:29):
Well, to be friends with your body, to be
re friend your body.
And I understand that withtrauma you might really want to
leave your body.
I certainly want to leave mybody, but your body has so much
to tell you.
And one of the things that Iteach.
Work with my clients around ishow to listen to your body and
(41:52):
hear what it's saying.
And I've studied, psychosomaticsand psychosomatic symptoms.
And so each part of your bodywhere the trauma is, where it's
stuck, has a message for you.
That's where that curiosity is,okay, what is he telling me?
And, and.
(42:13):
It has a lot.
So start listening.
Oh, you have an ache in yourelbow.
Okay, what does that mean?
Or, oh, your heart hurts.
Or you have your, your neckhurts.
You know, or your, you, your,there's congestion in your
throat, or you have a hard timespeaking.
These all have.
Very, very common sense meaningsand usually they're spot on.
(42:33):
The body is like, isn't tryingto be hide from you.
It's like hello.
Dr Nat Green (42:39):
The body keeps the score Good.
Old Bessel VanDerKolk tells us.
Yeah, totally.
Oh, very true, isn't it?
So you've shared an absolutewealth of wisdom today.
I am so grateful that you'vebeen able to come on.
Now, I know we talked aboutgrief and complex grief, and
you've shared a little bit aboutthat, but I'd love for you to
(43:02):
share.
I know you've got a really cool.
Checklist or assessment?
Yes.
Tell us about that.
'cause I know that there's a lotof people that definitely, with
their trauma come grief, so,right.
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (43:19):
So the checklist is a list of 20
questions about your grief andabout how you've been handling
the grief that will help you toidentify.
Whether or not you have complexgrief and how it is affecting
you in your life, and so afteryou finish the checklist, you
get a report from me that helpsyou to unpack your results and
(43:45):
understand how it affects youand what your options are moving
forward.
So how do you get it?
So how do you get it is you goto www.complexchecklist.com and
there it is.
You go to a landing page, youfill out the form, you go to the
checklist and you fill out thechecklist and then you get the
report.
Dr Nat Green (44:05):
Fantastic.
And I'll put that in the shownotes for our listeners anyway,
so they can go and check it outthemselves, because I know that
there would be very few people.
If you're human, that hasn't gotsome level of grief.
And I know for many of us whohave had trauma that it's highly
likely there's some complexgrief going on.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (44:26):
Now, sometimes you might have a loss
that's not complex or it doesn'ttrigger the complex stuff
behind.
Mm-hmm.
And that, you know, you justneed to grieve it.
Maybe it's the loss of, youknow, a family friend and you
feel close to them and it bringsup stuff.
Always be curious, but it mightnot put you into that deep
(44:49):
grief, like, you know, a closepartner or a child.
Or a parent.
Mm-hmm.
But that's okay.
You know?
Do you like.
Just, you just wait.
Universe will provide you withthe grief you need.
Dr Nat Green (45:03):
Yeah, great.
Thanks for that.
Put that out there,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (45:08):
but enjoy, you know, whatever.
So, when that happened to me, Ihad somebody who had died, who
was a friend of the family, isvery close and.
I actually flew all the way backto New Jersey to participate in
his memorial service because hehad had an impact on me.
And I wrote a blog about, snowdays that when we were children,
(45:32):
we would take snow days andwasn't it wonderful?
We would take a day off.
Right.
It was so great to treat thesegriefs that, you know, normally
we'd like, well, it's not mymother, it's not my father, it's
not my brother, it's not myhusband.
That we still have grief torelease and to take a snow day.
Dr Nat Green (45:51):
Oh, I love it.
Snow days.
I like that.
Does it matter if you don't getsnow?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (45:57):
No, it doesn't matter.
You don't get snow.
Snow?
I live in California.
We never get snow.
Dr Nat Green (46:02):
We call it a beach day over here.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:05):
Yes.
Well, but, oh, I grew up on theEast coast and, and I remember
as a child looking out thewindow at night, watching the
snow come down underneath thestreet lamp and saying, Ooh,
maybe we won't have schooltomorrow.
We'll have a snow day.
Dr Nat Green (46:24):
What we all wished for.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:26):
We did.
We did.
Dr Nat Green (46:27):
Oh, too funny.
So as we move to wrapping theconversation up, where can our
listeners find out more aboutyou and find you online?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:36):
Well, I am, on Facebook.
Mm-hmm.
under Michelle Peticolas and I'mon LinkedIn under Michelle
Peticolas and or Peticolas Itold you to pronounce it.
Peticolas'cause it's French.
And but if you sign up for thecomplex grief checklist, you'll
get on my mailing list and thenyou'll hear lots from me.
Dr Nat Green (46:56):
Excellent.
Oh, that's very exciting.
Now I like to finish.
Oh, sorry.
You were about to,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (47:02):
oh, I wanted one more thing.
Yeah.
I do have a website and it'scalled Secrets of Life and
death.com, named after my filmseries.
It's in the process of beingredone.
Mm-hmm.
A long process of being redone,but there is some really great
blogs in there and there is, thetrailers from my films are there
(47:24):
as well.
Dr Nat Green (47:25):
Oh, excellent.
So I'll put.
All of that in the show notes soour listeners can go and check
you out and, and connect withyou.
'cause I know you loveconnecting and you're happy for
them to message you and you'llmessage back.
So that's good.
Absolutely.
Now I like to finish our podcastwith what do you think your
(47:46):
youngest self would think ofwhat you've done now?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (47:55):
I think my younger self would feel
totally held and supported by methat she would feel finally seen
and loved and cherished.
And so she would be, she wouldreally be cheering me on, but
mainly she'd be feeling loved.
Dr Nat Green (48:16):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
Who would ever have thought thatlittle 2-year-old who shut down
everything could get to thepoint that she's at now?
That's so beautiful.
Yeah.
Look at you.
Go.
And I think that that's a reallyclear message for our listeners,
that anything is possible.
(48:37):
That you can go through terribletimes and really find your way
back to you who you were alwaysmeant to be.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (48:48):
Well, actually, I believe that's the
purpose of our lives, that wecome in, in a particular
circumstance to give us ourhero's journey.
And in that hero's journey, wefind out who we are and we gain
tools and skills and capacity,and we get to pass that on to
(49:10):
other people.
Dr Nat Green (49:13):
Nailed it.
I love that.
So you can be the hero in yourown journey.
You can be the, and you canwrite your ending,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (49:20):
and you can write your own ending.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (49:23):
I love that.
Thank you so much for comingalong today, Michelle.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (49:29):
It was a great enjoyment for me as well.
Nat, thank you for rememberingto invite me on your show.
I really appreciate it.
Dr Nat Green (49:42):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(50:04):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(50:25):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(50:45):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(51:06):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
(01:29):
I am super excited today andgrateful to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my absolute pleasure towelcome a lovely lady who I met
last year in some podcasttraining.
Actually.
She has experienced some traumaand adversity throughout her
life and has agreed to come andchat with us today.
(01:51):
About her personal and herprofessional experience and has
beautifully offered to share herwisdom with us.
So let me start by welcoming Dr.
Michelle Peticolas.
Dr.
Michelle is an internationalbestselling author of Step Into
Your Brilliance, as well asseveral other books.
She's the award-winningfilmmaker of Secrets of Life and
(02:14):
Death, a professional speakerand life transformation coach.
Dr.
Michelle helps high achievingmidlife women who have been
thrown off track by a major lossto release their complex grief
and transmute it into fuel forachieving their soul's purpose.
Using her unique frameworkS.E.R.V.E., she guides her
(02:35):
clients through their griefhealing, mindreset, and
reconnection to their authenticbrilliance.
So let me welcome Dr.
Michelle.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (02:45):
Thank you Nat.
It is my pleasure to be here.
Dr Nat Green (02:50):
It's an absolute delight to finally catch up
again,'cause I know it's been alittle while.
So I know that I gave a briefintroduction, but could we start
with you giving us a bit more ofan intro of who you are and what
you do in the world?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (03:06):
I would be happy to.
So a lot of people ask me why Iwork.
With people around grief, whatcompels me to do that?
Mm, well, it goes back to anexperience I've had most of my
life about waking up in themorning in a state of panic and
(03:31):
fear.
Mm, and this what I used tohandle it with was to jump outta
my bed right away and get onwith my life.
But I started to think at onepoint that maybe in a past life
I had been murdered in my sleep.
Dr Nat Green (03:47):
Oh my goodness.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (03:48):
That's what I thought.
But then later on when I met mysecond husband, when we were
first getting together, Irealized I had abandonment
issues.
Whoa.
Well, certainly my first husbandabandoned me for another woman.
(04:09):
But then I realized that it wentall the way back to when I was
two years old and I had bondedwith my father, and then he was
transferred by the US Army toJapan.
And for a 2-year-old, eventhough it wasn't a long time, it
was traumatic and my mother wasnot able to step up and help me
(04:31):
out because she was busy movinga household and three kids to
Japan.
Mm.
So the time was long enough thatI decided I lost my trust in my
father.
Mm-hmm.
In love and in myself.
And I decided to take life intomy own hands.
(04:52):
And I made an agreement with theworld that I would give people
what they wanted, and in returnI would get the attention that I
craved.
Mm.
And so I became, I guess whatyou could call a people pleaser.
Dr Nat Green (05:06):
Yes.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (05:07):
And Nat, it worked really well for many
years.
Worked really well in school andwent all the way to the PhD.
Mm-hmm.
I can imagine accumulating thoseawards and those recognitions.
Yes.
And then it stopped workingwell.
Okay.
It was like the universe hadconspired to wake me up.
(05:31):
Mm-hmm.
So when I met my currenthusband, I realized I had an
issue and I actually did someearly childhood program healing.
And what really, really woke meup was when my mother was dying.
Okay.
First my father died, and thensix months later my mother was
(05:52):
dying of breast cancer and Iwent back home to help her
finish up business.
She was.
A toy designer.
She and my aunt went to majortoy companies in New York City
and sold their designs.
So in some ways she was like theposter child for living your
(06:12):
life.
Passion,
Dr Nat Green (06:13):
absolutely amazing.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (06:16):
But I didn't appreciate that back
then.
Anyway, I was in her studiogoing through her papers, and I
picked up one, it was one of herdesigns, a Xerox copy.
Really.
And I handed it to her and Isaid, do you need this anymore?
And she looked at it.
She said, uhoh, I guess I'llnever finish that project.
(06:43):
Oh, her words pierced my heart.
Dr Nat Green (06:46):
Oh, they would've,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (06:46):
It just gave me goosebumps.
Yeah.
In that moment, Nat, Iunderstood what deadline really
meant.
Dr Nat Green (06:55):
Mm.
That's a really powerful Yeah.
Moment for sure.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:01):
It was a powerful moment.
Dr Nat Green (07:03):
Life changing.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:05):
It was, unfortuNatly, my emotions were
just beginning to come onlineagain.
I tamped them down when I wastwo years old.
Yeah.
And I was afraid, so I took thepaper back and I said, we don't
need to deal with this rightnow.
That moment, Nat, that moment Icraved with my mother all my
(07:31):
life.
That close intimacy was lostforever.
She died two weeks later,
Dr Nat Green (07:42):
Oh dear,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (07:44):
but it woke me up.
Her little regret became my hugeregret.
Okay.
And what I realized is that ifshe who was my poster child for
living your passion could haveregrets.
Where did that leave me?
The people pleaser.
(08:06):
I made up my mind right then andthere.
I would not live my life withregrets.
I.
Dr Nat Green (08:14):
Beautiful.
I love it.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (08:15):
And I decided I was gonna make a film
series, well, actually decided Iwas gonna make a film about
death and it became a series.
Ah.
But what I wanted to do was towake other people up to this
life and that it's short andthat you never know when it's
gonna end.
And if you don't live it, you'regonna end up with regrets.
(08:37):
Hmm.
And then that got me intohospice.
And then I got into, graduallyinto realizing that I had this
calling for grief and loss.
I'm telling you, I just went toa party, um, on 4th of July for,
you know, the United States.
And people were telling metheir, their, their life
stories, their trauma.
(08:59):
I was like, why do I have a signon me?
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (09:02):
Normally I'm the one that has that sign all over
my head when I go out.
It's like, really?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (09:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
They, it is like, they justknow, it's like their heart
knows that I can hold a spacefor them.
Mm-hmm.
And what a powerful gift yourmom gave you unknowingly.
You were able to do what so manypeople never get the chance to
realize, because you're right.
(09:27):
There's nothing worse than if wewere on our deathbed or in our
last days to have all theseregrets of unfinished things and
things we couldn't undo.
Yeah.
Um, there was a, a book by the,the woman, Bronnie Ware.
I think she was Australian,wasn't she?
(09:47):
She wrote The Five Regrets ofthe Dying, and the number one
regret was, and it was, it'sBronny, not Bonnie, but Bronny
Ware.
And she wrote this book, fiveRegrets of the Dying.
And the number one regret is notliving a life true to yourself.
Living the life everybody elsewants for you, but not the life
(10:07):
you want.
Dr Nat Green (10:08):
So tell me then, Michelle, as a reformed people
pleaser, I'm assuming now, soliving your life as a people
pleaser, then having this hugerealization that life is short.
You can't live with regrets, soyou have to live in the moment
and live every minute of theday.
(10:30):
Did that change your peoplepleasing pattern?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (10:34):
Well, it is deeply embedded, but it has
made me more aware mm-hmm.
Of that tendency to pleaseothers.
Yeah.
And to recognize when I'm doingtoo much.
To pull back and to say no, andto learn to say no.
Dr Nat Green (10:53):
Excellent.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (10:53):
And, but it's hard because, you know,
we're women, so nevermind.
Just the people pleasing we'rewomen.
And women are taught to be ofservice to people, aren't they?
Dr Nat Green (11:02):
Absolutely.
And then working in the areathat you work, it's very much
around giving, but as you said,we can please people, but it's
also around having those clearboundaries, isn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:15):
Well, and, and because I want my
clients to get the results.
Mm-hmm.
I.
That's what my focus is.
And so I don't necessarily givethem what they want.
I give them what they need.
Yes.
And, and what is going to movethem forward.
And that I've developed over anumber of years of doing
coaching that, I have developedtools that are really effective
(11:39):
for helping people break throughtheir emotional blocks and
change their thoughts.
Dr Nat Green (11:47):
Which is as we know, so needed, isn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:51):
It is so needed
Dr Nat Green (11:53):
and particularly so you are working mainly now in
grief and loss?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (11:58):
So I work with complex grief.
Mm-hmm.
People ask, well, what's complexgrief?
Like me people have wounds andtrauma earlier in their life
that's never been healed.
For me, it was that abandonmentfrom my father was never healed.
And so when I had the loss of myparents, it magnified the
(12:24):
intensity of the loss.
It's like all the other lossesthat were never resolved come
bubbling up to the top.
Yes.
And and they make it morecomplex and make it more
difficult.
And some people, they, they canget stuck.
Yeah.
I had a woman, a client who cameto me.
We'll call her Agnes.
(12:44):
Yep.
She had been grieving the lossof her husband for 20 years, 20.
When I first saw her tearsrolling down her cheeks, I'm
like, 20 years.
Well, it turned out she hadexperienced abandonment three
times before she ever met herhusband.
Mm.
First her father left her, thenher grandmother died.
(13:07):
Her mother was, was notavailable, was not responsible.
Mm.
And so when she met her husband,he was like the answer her, the
solution to her abandonment.
And then he died young.
Oh, goodness.
And it was like, oh.
And when I met her, she was onher way to abandonment number
five, because her son remindedher of her husband.
(13:30):
And every time she saw him, shewould cry.
Dr Nat Green (13:36):
So many layers.
So many layers.
Layers and layers and layers topeel away when you're working
with someone With so manycompounded issues.
Yeah,
Dr Michelle Peticola (13:47):
compounded issues.
But here's the thing is that ifyou have an issue around
abandonment, and it's probablyany kind of little complex
mm-hmm.
Is that it will keep on, you'llkeep on attracting it to
yourself.
Until you finally face it andwork on it.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (14:03):
Yeah.
And it, it's a lot of that whatwe call shadow work, isn't it?
It's that we have to face, youhave to face the shadow and
shadow hidden away there becauseif we don't face the shadows and
the things that are in the dark,we're gonna keep getting more of
that until we get that lesson.
Really
Dr Michelle Peticolas (14:20):
That's, isn't it?
Yep.
That's really true.
That's really true.
Dr Nat Green (14:24):
Yeah.
So tell me a bit more then abouthow that works when you're
working with someone like Agnes.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (14:33):
So I have a system, which has the name
serve.
So instead of letting, havinggrief overwhelm you, stop you in
your life, does it destroy yourlife.
You let it serve you and you letit serve you.
By taking each of those lettersand, it corresponds to an
(14:55):
action.
S means surrender means you needto surrender to your emotions.
Most of the people that I runinto when I first meet them,
they have a hard time allowingtheir feelings.
Either they have learned torepress them.
Which a lot of us in the UnitedStates are taught, taught how to
repress our feelings.
Dr Nat Green (15:16):
I don't think it's just the United States,
Michelle.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (15:18):
No, probably not.
But I, I'm not pretending toknow all of the world.
No.
But, so that, so we repress ourfeelings'cause it, it's not
acceptable.
Mm-hmm.
And or we are terrified that ifwe allow our feelings, that we
will we'll become swamped.
That we will never get out ofthe dark hole.
(15:40):
Yes.
So I teach my clients how torelease any emotion in two
minutes or less.
Dr Nat Green (15:47):
In two minutes.
Yes.
Yes.
That's powerful like magic.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (15:53):
It's, it's, it, it is.
And that's what I do.
And once they learn how to dothat.
They feel empowered and thenthey allow themselves to grieve.
And that was what happened toAgnes was she had actually
never, never really fullyallowed herself to grieve.
When she would grieve, she wouldbecome swamped in the grief.
(16:14):
Yeah, because the mind likes tojump in.
And tell us these terriblethings and recycle the grief
over and over and over again.
So we have to stop that patternand once you stop that pattern
and allow yourself to actuallyrelease the emotion and just the
(16:34):
emotion without the mindset, itreally will release in two
minutes or less.
Dr Nat Green (16:39):
That permission is really, really important.
So acknowledging it andpermission, and you know, I know
a lot of, you know, a lot of ourlisteners are people who've been
through trauma, but with thattrauma is very much grief and
often compounded grief that'sbuilt up and built up.
And there's that fear of, if Iactually deal with it, I won't
(17:03):
cope.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (17:04):
I'll never come back.
I, I'll get stuck in there andI'll never come back.
And right now I'm working with aclient who has, depression and
she's terrified of allowing herfeelings because she's afraid
that she'll fall into that holeand not be able to get out.
Dr Nat Green (17:21):
And it's a real feeling.
We've that a lot.
Yeah.
And it's, it's understandable,isn't it, that it Totally, that
you've been through so much thatyou try to, to contain it
because it's, you know.
Like a river that will not stopflowing.
I remember when my mum passedaway and I was in my twenties
and we knew, you know, she wasdying, but I still remember my
(17:44):
sister six years younger thanme, and I was crying yet again
because my mum was dying and Iwas very.
Difficult experience, but Iremember my sister's words very
clearly.
Oh, you've cried enough.
You've cried a river of tearsfor goodness sake.
How much more can you cry?
And I thought, oh, okay.
(18:05):
So it was almost that not beingallowed to continue to cry.
I still did.
Right.
Because I couldn't help it atthe time.
Right,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:14):
right, right, right.
Yeah.
But again, those,
Dr Nat Green (18:16):
those words.
Stick with us.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:18):
Yeah.
Yes.
Find that.
Yes, it's there.
That's right.
It's, it's definitely there.
And it, and then of course wemodel after our parents.
So if your father was reallystrong and, and stiff upper lip
or whatever and, and would notallow us feelings, we will,
we'll take our, our lessonsfrom, from our parents.
And so that happens.
Dr Nat Green (18:37):
Absolutely.
So sorry I waylaid you, I tookyou on.
Oh, no, no.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (18:42):
So, so the E is engage all loss and it
doesn't have to just be lossfrom death involves the loss of
relationships and connections.
Mm-hmm.
We forget, especially in theUnited States, that we are
social.
(19:04):
Beings.
Yes.
And that we are literally wiredto bond with other people.
Mm-hmm.
So when you lose somebody,you're triggering a survival
response in your body.
A fight, flee, freeze.
Yes.
Literally triggers the samechemicals in your body.
Mm-hmm.
Because we survive better incommunity.
(19:27):
So one of the first things Ihave to work with after we get
through the emotions isreconnecting my clients to their
community, to other people.
Mm-hmm.
You know, if they've lostsomebody that they're really
close to a lot, you know, in theUnited States it's like, you
know, it's just, the pair, thehusband and the wife, and, and
(19:48):
then the rest of the people, areirrelevant.
And then you lose that personand suddenly you realize that
you were all alone.
And you have to reach out topeople and make new connections.
So that's, that's the E is toengage with other people and to
create that, that container ofsupport.
(20:08):
I.
So then the R is reframe andthis is also hugely important.
Because when we go into grief,the mind works over time to try
and make sense of things.
And oftentimes has a verynegative mindset about what your
prospects are for your future.
(20:28):
Mm-hmm.
And it can really.
And, and it'll remind you of allthe things that you did wrong.
And shouldn't you have told yourhusband or your spouse that they
were sick and shouldn't you havedone more and shouldn't you have
shown them how much you lovethem and all that.
You know, it goes on and on andon.
And, so we have to work on themindset.
'cause it can drive you crazy.
(20:50):
Mm-hmm.
It's, it's a brilliant brain.
It's really useful, but it needsto be tamed.
Yes.
It needs, needs to be minded.
Mm.
So that's reframe.
And we actually go so far as toreframe the person's whole life,
okay.
So that they look at everythingand see how everything has moved
(21:11):
forward to this point in theirlife, and actually provides the
foundations and the clues towhere you're going.
Hmm.
And so the ultimate after thatis The next one V is vision.
What is it that you want in yourlife?
Where do you wanna go next?
(21:33):
And this is so important, Nat.
Yeah.
Because I have met women who gotstuck in the grief, and that
became their new identity.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, I'm the widow who lost thelove of my life.
Yeah.
And that became their wholesense of who they were.
Mm-hmm.
And they told their stories andthey reveled it in it, and they,
you know, and they enjoyed thespecial perks that come from
(21:55):
being the grieving widow.
Mm.
But they're like stuck in thepast.
Yes.
So vision is v
Dr Nat Green (22:04):
a very important part.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (22:06):
Very important is to, to get the
client moving forward into wherethey're going next.
Yeah.
And then the final one isanother E and that is to
express.
So it's not enough to have avision.
You have to materialize it, youhave to bring it into being, and
you do that by expressing it, ofputting it into, to the world.
(22:26):
Either in, you know, like me, Iput it into film.
Or it could be dance, or itcould be a book, or it could be
a, a program, some way in whichit gets manifest and helps other
people in the world becausethat's what we're here for.
Dr Nat Green (22:45):
I love that so much and really hearing you talk
about it and, and such clear.
Parts and that it moves forwardand that they know who they are
and who they were and who theyneed to be.
Now is so important, andparticularly with the listeners
(23:06):
who have been through trauma.
We know that a lot of peoplewho've been through trauma want
to go back to who they used tobe before their trauma
Dr Michelle Peticolas (23:15):
uhhuh.
That makes sense.
Dr Nat Green (23:17):
We hear that so often, but the reality is we
can't be that person again.
Because we have the learningsand the lessons and the
experiences as a result of whatwe've been through, that help
shape us and they can, as you'vesaid, they can be a really great
gift because then we can see thevalue, what's important to us,
(23:40):
what really matters like you didwith that moment in your life
with your mom.
Yeah.
It helped shape everything youdid moving forward.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (23:50):
It did.
It really did.
Dr Nat Green (23:52):
Yeah.
So knowing that you are coveringoff that identity of who they
are and who they need to be isreally powerful.
I love that.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (24:03):
Well, and I, I help them to see who they
really are.
Mm-hmm.
That part of themselves thatgives them goosebumps.
That excites them and providethem with that social support.
It's like I'm the initial socialsupport that helps to encourage
them to embrace.
(24:24):
Mm-hmm.
Their true feelings, their trueself, their true desires.
Dr Nat Green (24:29):
Yeah.
So let's go back to some of yourstory then.
So what were some of yourbiggest roadblocks or obstacles
that you faced during yourhealing journey?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (24:44):
Well, the first obstacle I had was that I
had shut down my feelings.
Now, not completely, because itturns out that I am super
sensitive, Nat.
Yeah.
I actually can feel otherpeople's feelings.
Mm-hmm.
If they have blocks in theirbody, I feel it in my body.
I'm super sensitive, but I,because of that trauma of having
(25:05):
my father disappear overnight.
I shut down my sensation and Ihung out in my head.
Any of you out there hang out inyour head?
Well, I loved my head.
I loved my brain.
It was so smart and it had somany great ideas and it was so
entertaining.
But it would be, it would takeeffort for me to get back into
(25:29):
my body.
Mm-hmm.
And so that was the first thingI had to learn was how to, to
feel.
And I, to this day, I have a, Ihave a morning ritual that
involves putting oil on my bodyand massaging it into my skin to
sensitize the nerve endings inmy skin.
Dr Nat Green (25:49):
Wow.
What a great way to reconnectwith yourself.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (25:53):
It is, it is really, it's exceptional.
And then of course, I do yogaand all sorts of other things.
Mm.
But it, it is a conscious effortfor me to stay in my body.
Mm.
To to remember it.
and to recognize it.
And acknowledge it.
And that is what I teach myclients because that is key to
healing grief is to, because thebody has so much wisdom.
Dr Nat Green (26:18):
Mm.
It certainly does.
And after we go through traumaor significant grief, we do.
Tend to disconnect.
Well, I always talk about thethree brains, the head, the
heart, and the gut.
And you gave a very greatexample around how you went into
your head because that wassafer.
(26:39):
Yeah, because it hurt.
Was too painful to feel.
Yep.
So your heart, braindisconnected.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (26:46):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (26:46):
And that gut brain, you said you used to be
really intuitive and could feelhow other people operated and
what was going on for them, butyou would've likely switched off
that gut brain as well becauseit was safer, and you stopped
trusting yourself, trustingothers.
And that's what happens when wego through something significant
(27:08):
and it's about reconnecting ourthree brains, the head, the
heart, and the gut.
So you've very beautifully
Dr Michelle Peticola (27:15):
identified that.
So this is the interestingthing, is that the gut was what
enabled me to suss out whatother people wanted from me.
Mm-hmm.
That's why I was so good at it.
I would go into a classroom, Iknew exactly what the teacher
wanted and I would give it tothem and they loved me.
Dr Nat Green (27:33):
I bet they did.
Worked right into your peoplepleasing ways, didn't it?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (27:38):
Oh yeah, I just played right into it.
Dr Nat Green (27:40):
Mm-hmm.
So you were still connected, butnot necessarily not for reading
that,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (27:46):
not for me.
I wasn't connected to what Ineeded, you know, so, so, but
that, that is so part of theprocess of learning who you are
is recognizing that some of thethings that you see that you
think are detriments mightactually be attributes.
Mm.
That is, that the peoplepleasing also taught me skills
for being able to help myclients to really see them.
(28:09):
Mm.
And to, and to understand themand feel them.
So it, it's like it, there's alot of benefit in some of the
things that we, you know, wewanna discard them, but actually
they, we may be able to bringthem forward into our new
vision.
Dr Nat Green (28:25):
Oh, I'm a firm believer in that, that our
experiences teach us so much.
They are full of learnings andlessons and not all bad, that
they're almost that double-edgedsword.
It's like, well, yes, that'sthat shadow side, but what's the
other side?
How can I use that in a, in ahealthy, helpful way
Dr Michelle Peticolas (28:47):
But back to the heart, you know, you
talked about the three brainsand the heart.
So part of my problem was thatin becoming a people pleaser, I
had shut down my heart.
I'd shut down my heart with myfather.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to control what came tome.
And I believe that my firsthusband left me because he had
(29:11):
issues about not being loved byhis mother.
And there I was the reproductionof his mother.
'Cause I wasn't able to.
Love.
But I have done a lot of workaround that and I am much more
loving, much more aware of myheart.
I do a spiritual practice that'sall about love, that that is
emphasizes connecting to theheart.
Dr Nat Green (29:34):
Mm.
And you've touched on two bigthings that a lot of my podcast
guests have shared that are, Ibelieve, have shown themselves
throughout.
Just over a year that I've beenpodcasting have shown that
community is really important,as is some sort of spiritual
(29:59):
practice.
Doesn't have to be a religiouspractice, but some sort of
connection to something outsideourselves.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (30:07):
Yes.
Yes, absolutely.
Very important.
Thank you for, for mentioningthat.
It was a big part of my healingwas, and I've been doing a
spiritual practice for over 40years, study with a teacher and,
reconnected to my body,reconnected to love.
(30:28):
That's how I was able to, tofind my current husband and be
able to connect with him at thatlevel.
Dr Nat Green (30:37):
Oh, that's beautiful.
Thank you for sharing that withus.
So how would you say theexperience that you've been
through in your life,particularly around the time
when your mum was about to passaway, how has that transformed
your perspective on life, onrelationships, on your personal
values?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (31:00):
It's, it's interesting.
I, uh.
I have told my story of mymother many times because I'm a
Toastmaster and I actuallyparticipated in some of the
contests and I have told thestory so many times that it has
changed my perspective of mymother.
(31:20):
It is healed.
It has healed my relationshipwith her and I understand her so
much better because of the workI, the early childhood work I
did, and because I believe thatstorytelling is healing, I.
Then when we tell our story,especially when you have to tell
a story as a speech and it needsto have a beginning, a middle,
(31:42):
and an end, you have tostructure it.
You know?
And I think that's why I havepeople tell their live story is
that they have a beginning, amiddle, and now what's gonna be
the end?
We gotta get a good ending,right?
We all like good endings
Dr Nat Green (31:55):
You can write your own ending.
I love that.
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (31:58):
Yes.
And you can write your ownending, but people don't know
that they can.
But once they learn, it's like,oh my gosh, I can have the
ending I want.
So that, that has been, a verypowerful, awakening for me is
realizing that, but I forgetexactly what your question was.
Do you remember, have I answeredit?
Dr Nat Green (32:18):
Yes, yes.
You've answered it.
It was, um, how else yourperspective on, and I think
you've done that as we've beentalking on relationships, you
sought relationships in adifferent way after that.
Yes.
And what about what's importantto you as far as your values go
as a result of what you've beenthrough?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (32:40):
Values such a, a funny word, isn't it?
It's.
my value from the get go, and Idon't, I must have gotten it
from my parents, was to be wellresponsible, but my teacher
taught me the, the three mostimportant values.
(33:02):
And that is, peace is to feelpeaceful within yourself.
Yeah.
That is to have that calm andpeacefulness and not do, um.
To get your life into like adrama story all the time.
Mm-hmm.
Which we sometimes do.
Yeah.
And then the next one is faith.
(33:22):
But it's not faith in areligion, it's faith in oneself.
It's trusting in yourself andyour own intuition and that you
are going in the right way.
Beautiful.
Right.
And then the third one, which Ilove because it fits with who I
am is excellence.
That is that.
(33:42):
Mm-hmm.
Everything that I engage in, Itry to do my very best.
Dr Nat Green (33:48):
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (33:49):
Not to be perfect, which of course I'm a
perfectionist, so I would tendto do that, but because Yes, I
hear you.
Because that is a value to me isto do my best.
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (34:05):
Mm.
So excellence, not perfection.
That's right.
Excellence not perfection.
Oh, very, very powerful values.
So peace, faith, and excellence.
Yeah.
Isn't it beautiful?
Yeah, very much so.
So, and this might lead into mynext question for you is really
around, and you've touched onthis already as well, are there
(34:28):
any specific qualities orpersonal attributes that you
would see as being.
Important for someone movingfrom trauma into post-traumatic
growth?
Dr Michelle Peticol (34:41):
Absolutely.
Number one, curiosity.
This will take you very, veryfar.
And this has taken me very, veryfar.
Yeah.
Is that my own curiosity aboutwhat is, oh, what's going on
inside of me?
Sometimes I'll have, you know,like a, a difficult time,
whatever it is, something that'supsetting me and part of my mind
is gonna be saying.
(35:02):
Oh, you know what?
I think my clients deal withthis.
I better take notes.
Mm, yes.
You know what I'm talking about,right?
Absolutely.
I love that.
My God.
It's like, oh, okay.
Thank you universe.
I needed to learn this.
Thank you.
Yes.
Now I,
Dr Nat Green (35:18):
yes.
We're never done learning arewe?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (35:20):
We're never done learning.
So curiosity about.
Instead of trying to repressyour feelings, being curious,
oh, this person just saidsomething that triggered me
being curious.
Mm-hmm.
Why was I, what, what was itabout that statement or that
person why?
Why did I get triggered by that?
(35:41):
What's underneath it Andcuriosity helps to step you out
of that reactivity Yes.
Into a different place.
Of course, I told you I washeady, so the, the head would
love to come in, sort of, yes.
Problem solve what that is.
But it's really helpful thatthat particular, and then of
course, for my clients is beingwilling to try things out.
(36:05):
Yes, you gotta be willingbecause I'm gonna ask you to do
stuff that you're gonna say, butif you just try it out and see
what happens, what's the result?
It will have a huge impact.
Dr Nat Green (36:19):
Mm.
So getting them to agree whenthey come in as your client,
that they're willing to give ita try.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (36:25):
That's right.
Well, It's part of the contract.
Yeah.
They have to, they have tofollow the program, and the
program has got very specificexercises that you need to do
to, to change.
Dr Nat Green (36:36):
Yeah.
And I would imagine that, youknow, as someone who's had fair
bit of grief in my life, thatthat's.
Part of it, isn't it?
That you need to be willing tocome in and give it a go, but
you're gonna be uncomfortable.
Yes.
You're not gonna like it one bitwhen you have to go outside your
(36:56):
comfort zone and and feel stuffthat hurts.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (37:01):
Yes.
So it's, somebody was using theword the other day, tolerance,
that you have to tolerate acertain amount of discomfort in
order to get to the next place.
Isn't that beautiful?
Dr Nat Green (37:13):
Hmm.
Yeah.
And as psychologists we wouldtalk about that window of
tolerance.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what it's like when you'reoutside that, particularly after
trauma or grief, very similar.
'cause you know they'reinterwoven, aren't they?
A lot of the times, yes.
Under grief is always some layerof trauma that's unhealed or
(37:35):
unresolved.
That's
Dr Michelle Peticolas (37:36):
right.
and you know, sometimes thetrauma seems like a little
trauma.
I mean, you know, from theoutside my particular story
seems like minor, but that earlychildhood injury was huge and
they and psychologists have donestudies of children who go
through a traumatic experiencelike that.
(37:58):
And it has a huge impact on yourlife and it can reverberate
throughout your life.
So those of you out there who'vehad little traumas, don't beat
yourself up and say, what's thematter with you?
Look at this person.
They've had much bigger trauma.
What the hell's the matter withme?
No.
We all have our own journey andour own story.
Dr Nat Green (38:16):
That is really, really important.
You just nailed it because Ihear that a lot that, oh, but
mine's only a little T traumathat, you know, I dunno why I
feel like this.
And they're criticizing that.
Self-criticism is huge.
It's like, hang on a minute.
Yeah.
I throw that out the door.
We don't come in here with that.
(38:37):
It's every bit of, everyexperience you've had, if it
doesn't feel safe.
All right for you, whether it'sa little T or a Big T's,
irrelevant, we can't compareourselves to anyone else because
if it's feeling awful for you,there's a reason you have an
(39:01):
experience and a life ofexperiences that you bring.
You're not just the personstanding in the room or sitting
in the room right now.
You've got a lifetime ofexperiences, and as you've said.
Other experiences from ourparents, our grandparents that
have been handed down, thatintergenerational stuff,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (39:25):
that intergenerational stuff.
Dr Nat Green (39:27):
And you talked about waking every morning
thinking, oh, had you beenkilled in a past life?
I can imagine that would've gonethrough your head, particularly
when you're in your head all thetime.
Have I been through somethinglike that?
And.
Who knows, but it was your bodybecause we know that all our
experiences, good and bad, areheld in our nervous system.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (39:49):
That's it.
That's it.
And when you're two years old,you don't have the cognitive,
development to hold it in yourbrain.
So you hold it all in your body,and then you have no idea what's
going on because there's no,there's no interpretation.
You know, and your mind is liketrying to make sense of it, and
it's like.
(40:09):
Why?
Why am I, why am I feeling somuch anxiety when I wake up in
the morning?
Dr Nat Green (40:15):
Yeah.
And now you know, when you getthat perspective and you can see
it, you go, oh, of course mybody carried that.
My nervous system carried thatall these years and.
For you, your mom, for me.
There's been other things alongthe way that, that's almost the
excuse in inverted commas.
Now you can cry and grieve'causethere's a reason.
(40:38):
Yes.
But often it's like thefloodgates open and all the
other stuff that we've hiddenfor all these years comes out as
well, doesn't it?
It does.
It does.
And you would see that with yourclients.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (40:50):
Yes.
But for me it's a, I celebrateit, you know?
I say, oh, this is fantastic.
Oh, you're finally clearing thiswhole stuff out.
We're cleaning out the house.
Dr Nat Green (40:59):
Exactly.
Definitely
Dr Michelle Peticolas (41:03):
making space for a new life.
Dr Nat Green (41:05):
Exactly.
Making space, clearing it out.
And as you said, clearingclearinghouse.
I love it.
Oh, so if you were to give,share one thing.
That would help our listeners asthey navigate from trauma to
post-traumatic growth, whatwould it be?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (41:29):
Well, to be friends with your body, to be
re friend your body.
And I understand that withtrauma you might really want to
leave your body.
I certainly want to leave mybody, but your body has so much
to tell you.
And one of the things that Iteach.
Work with my clients around ishow to listen to your body and
(41:52):
hear what it's saying.
And I've studied, psychosomaticsand psychosomatic symptoms.
And so each part of your bodywhere the trauma is, where it's
stuck, has a message for you.
That's where that curiosity is,okay, what is he telling me?
And, and.
(42:13):
It has a lot.
So start listening.
Oh, you have an ache in yourelbow.
Okay, what does that mean?
Or, oh, your heart hurts.
Or you have your, your neckhurts.
You know, or your, you, your,there's congestion in your
throat, or you have a hard timespeaking.
These all have.
Very, very common sense meaningsand usually they're spot on.
(42:33):
The body is like, isn't tryingto be hide from you.
It's like hello.
Dr Nat Green (42:39):
The body keeps the score Good.
Old Bessel VanDerKolk tells us.
Yeah, totally.
Oh, very true, isn't it?
So you've shared an absolutewealth of wisdom today.
I am so grateful that you'vebeen able to come on.
Now, I know we talked aboutgrief and complex grief, and
you've shared a little bit aboutthat, but I'd love for you to
(43:02):
share.
I know you've got a really cool.
Checklist or assessment?
Yes.
Tell us about that.
'cause I know that there's a lotof people that definitely, with
their trauma come grief, so,right.
Yeah.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (43:19):
So the checklist is a list of 20
questions about your grief andabout how you've been handling
the grief that will help you toidentify.
Whether or not you have complexgrief and how it is affecting
you in your life, and so afteryou finish the checklist, you
get a report from me that helpsyou to unpack your results and
(43:45):
understand how it affects youand what your options are moving
forward.
So how do you get it?
So how do you get it is you goto www.complexchecklist.com and
there it is.
You go to a landing page, youfill out the form, you go to the
checklist and you fill out thechecklist and then you get the
report.
Dr Nat Green (44:05):
Fantastic.
And I'll put that in the shownotes for our listeners anyway,
so they can go and check it outthemselves, because I know that
there would be very few people.
If you're human, that hasn't gotsome level of grief.
And I know for many of us whohave had trauma that it's highly
likely there's some complexgrief going on.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (44:26):
Now, sometimes you might have a loss
that's not complex or it doesn'ttrigger the complex stuff
behind.
Mm-hmm.
And that, you know, you justneed to grieve it.
Maybe it's the loss of, youknow, a family friend and you
feel close to them and it bringsup stuff.
Always be curious, but it mightnot put you into that deep
(44:49):
grief, like, you know, a closepartner or a child.
Or a parent.
Mm-hmm.
But that's okay.
You know?
Do you like.
Just, you just wait.
Universe will provide you withthe grief you need.
Dr Nat Green (45:03):
Yeah, great.
Thanks for that.
Put that out there,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (45:08):
but enjoy, you know, whatever.
So, when that happened to me, Ihad somebody who had died, who
was a friend of the family, isvery close and.
I actually flew all the way backto New Jersey to participate in
his memorial service because hehad had an impact on me.
And I wrote a blog about, snowdays that when we were children,
(45:32):
we would take snow days andwasn't it wonderful?
We would take a day off.
Right.
It was so great to treat thesegriefs that, you know, normally
we'd like, well, it's not mymother, it's not my father, it's
not my brother, it's not myhusband.
That we still have grief torelease and to take a snow day.
Dr Nat Green (45:51):
Oh, I love it.
Snow days.
I like that.
Does it matter if you don't getsnow?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (45:57):
No, it doesn't matter.
You don't get snow.
Snow?
I live in California.
We never get snow.
Dr Nat Green (46:02):
We call it a beach day over here.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:05):
Yes.
Well, but, oh, I grew up on theEast coast and, and I remember
as a child looking out thewindow at night, watching the
snow come down underneath thestreet lamp and saying, Ooh,
maybe we won't have schooltomorrow.
We'll have a snow day.
Dr Nat Green (46:24):
What we all wished for.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:26):
We did.
We did.
Dr Nat Green (46:27):
Oh, too funny.
So as we move to wrapping theconversation up, where can our
listeners find out more aboutyou and find you online?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (46:36):
Well, I am, on Facebook.
Mm-hmm.
under Michelle Peticolas and I'mon LinkedIn under Michelle
Peticolas and or Peticolas Itold you to pronounce it.
Peticolas'cause it's French.
And but if you sign up for thecomplex grief checklist, you'll
get on my mailing list and thenyou'll hear lots from me.
Dr Nat Green (46:56):
Excellent.
Oh, that's very exciting.
Now I like to finish.
Oh, sorry.
You were about to,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (47:02):
oh, I wanted one more thing.
Yeah.
I do have a website and it'scalled Secrets of Life and
death.com, named after my filmseries.
It's in the process of beingredone.
Mm-hmm.
A long process of being redone,but there is some really great
blogs in there and there is, thetrailers from my films are there
(47:24):
as well.
Dr Nat Green (47:25):
Oh, excellent.
So I'll put.
All of that in the show notes soour listeners can go and check
you out and, and connect withyou.
'cause I know you loveconnecting and you're happy for
them to message you and you'llmessage back.
So that's good.
Absolutely.
Now I like to finish our podcastwith what do you think your
(47:46):
youngest self would think ofwhat you've done now?
Dr Michelle Peticolas (47:55):
I think my younger self would feel
totally held and supported by methat she would feel finally seen
and loved and cherished.
And so she would be, she wouldreally be cheering me on, but
mainly she'd be feeling loved.
Dr Nat Green (48:16):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
Who would ever have thought thatlittle 2-year-old who shut down
everything could get to thepoint that she's at now?
That's so beautiful.
Yeah.
Look at you.
Go.
And I think that that's a reallyclear message for our listeners,
that anything is possible.
(48:37):
That you can go through terribletimes and really find your way
back to you who you were alwaysmeant to be.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (48:48):
Well, actually, I believe that's the
purpose of our lives, that wecome in, in a particular
circumstance to give us ourhero's journey.
And in that hero's journey, wefind out who we are and we gain
tools and skills and capacity,and we get to pass that on to
(49:10):
other people.
Dr Nat Green (49:13):
Nailed it.
I love that.
So you can be the hero in yourown journey.
You can be the, and you canwrite your ending,
Dr Michelle Peticolas (49:20):
and you can write your own ending.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (49:23):
I love that.
Thank you so much for comingalong today, Michelle.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you.
Dr Michelle Peticolas (49:29):
It was a great enjoyment for me as well.
Nat, thank you for rememberingto invite me on your show.
I really appreciate it.
Dr Nat Green (49:42):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(50:04):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(50:25):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
(50:45):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(51:06):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now
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