May 12, 2025 • 61 mins
In this deeply moving and insightful episode of Growing Tall Poppies, Dr. Nat Green welcomes the compassionate and wise Dr. Mark Seton—a researcher, educator, consultant for Sense Connexion and founder of the Embodied Vulnerability Ecosystem. With a background in working with actors, creatives, and helping professionals, Dr. Seton shares his profound personal story of trauma and recovery, offering listeners a rich exploration into the power of embodied healing, resilience, and identity restoration.
Mark courageously recounts his own lived experience with trauma, including an abusive relationship and its impact on his mental health, ultimately leading to his breakthrough realisation: our bodies are not betrayers—they’re messengers. Through this lens, Mark introduces the idea of relational resilience, self-compassion, and joy as medicine, while debunking the myth that professionals must always be strong, heroic, and self-sacrificing.
Listeners are guided through a powerful play-based exercise that encourages reconnecting with the body's wisdom, evoking joy and childlike creativity. Mark also outlines the critical need to de-acclimatise from the “peak performance” addiction in high-stakes professions and instead foster sustainable, embodied practices that honour both vulnerability and recovery.
This episode is a heart-opening reminder for therapists, creatives, and care professionals to embrace their open-hearted nature without burnout, martyrdom, or isolation. It’s an invitation into a new, empowering paradigm—one that is both deeply human and profoundly healing.
🧠 Key Topics Discussed:
- Dr. Seton’s lived experience of trauma, isolation and breakdown
- The power of body wisdom and embodied vulnerability in recovery
- The myth of the hero-professional and the cost of emotional suppression
- Practical tools for grounding, including a joy-based body movement exercise
- The concept of relational resilience and why healing is never a solo journey
- Navigating the “peak performance trap” and the need for de-acclimatisation
- Helping actors, doctors, and professionals reconnect with identity beyond roles
- Insights from Dr. Seton’s current research on Open-Hearted Professionals
- Reframing vulnerability as strength and openness as wisdom
Dr. Mark Seton is on a mission to foster compassionate, embodied, and sustainable practices for open-hearted professionals. His current research explores how vulnerability can be redefined as open-heartedness and strength.
Email mc.seton@bigpond.com
📊 Take the Survey for Open-Hearted Professionals: [Here]
Mark also has a foundational service, called Your Professional Uniqueness providing a Fascinate© assessment and 60 min coachin
If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen
Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm really pleased and gratefultoday to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
(01:30):
It's my absolute pleasure andprivilege to welcome a lovely
man who I met recently throughan event for podcasters, and he
has experienced and overcomeconsiderable trauma and
adversity throughout his life,and has so generously agreed to
come and chat with us todayabout his experience.
(01:51):
So let me start by introducingMark to you all.
Dr.
Mark Seton is an honorary.
Research associate in thediscipline of theater and
performance studies with theUniversity of Sydney Australia.
He's also an educator andconsultant for Sense Connexion,
which he established to empoweropen-hearted professionals such
(02:12):
as actors, lawyers, and healthpractitioners whose capacity for
empathy and sensitivity iscrucial to their effectiveness
and success.
He was amazingly awarded aChurchill Fellowship in 2009 to
conduct a study tour of actortraining healthcare practices in
the UK.
(02:33):
Arising from this study, theEquity Foundation in
collaboration with theUniversity of Sydney initiated
an internationallygroundbreaking actor's wellbeing
study in 2013.
And Mark is a founding member ofthe Australian Society for
Performing Arts Healthcare, aboard member on the
(02:53):
International Performing ArtsMedicine Association and Chair
of the Human Research EthicsCommittee of the Australian
University of Theology.
So that's quite a broad, rangeof things there, Mark.
So welcome.
It's so great to have you here.
Dr Mark Seton (03:12):
Thanks Natalie, and delightful to first meet you
at the podcast and now to sharethis longer conversation.
Looking forward to it.
Dr Nat Green (03:20):
Excellent.
And as I said, it's a delightfor me to have you here.
So can we start, I know I gave abit of an introduction, but can
we start with you giving us abrief introduction of who you
are and what you do in the worldthese days?
Dr Mark Seton (03:36):
Yes.
And I like the way you framethat because who I am, I feel
I'm constantly becoming more ofmyself, celebrating my
uniqueness the things I do asyou've already indicated in the
area of education.
I do teaching of actors,particularly in areas of
wellbeing.
But I also look at things like.
History of theater and historyof screen production those sorts
(03:59):
of areas.
But I have a growing interest inresearching and advocating for
the wellbeing, not only ofcreatives who often are subject
to sacrificing themselves fortheir art.
But I've noticed through myengagement with people like
lawyers through the law wellnessnetwork of the last 12 or so
(04:20):
years they too struggle to findthat balance of being connected
to others, empathetic withothers, and yet also having
those healthy boundaries.
And also they encountervicarious trauma.
And so I felt this growingconnection between myself and
other professionals who maybehave encountered trauma or by
(04:41):
necessity are working withpeople who have been
traumatized.
And bringing my own life journeyof trauma and in the ways I've
found resilience through my ownvulnerability, that's what
really drives me now is I wantto provide more and more of that
insight and service toprofessionals in that area.
Dr Nat Green (05:02):
Oh, I love this so much.
And you touched on so manythings that are of huge interest
to me.
And as you know, I've pivoted alittle of late and we are really
looking at what I think, andyou've beautifully articulated,
is a growing need to recognizethe vicarious trauma.
(05:22):
That we often aren't speakingabout that when you are in a
role where you are helpingpeople and giving so much of
yourself to others as you'vedone for so long, and the people
we work with have done, I firmlybelieve that vicarious trauma is
such a huge thing that is oftenunderplayed, downplayed or just
(05:46):
completely ignored, and we don'tspeak about it.
So I'm excited for thisconversation.
Dr Mark Seton (05:52):
Indeed.
And I might add I just love theway you've framed it in terms of
roles and hence why mybeginnings, this area in the
area of acting.
So actors take on roles Yes.
Roles that have encounteredtrauma.
So the, that the body doesn'tknow the difference between
fiction and reality.
And so actors playing outtraumatizing roles.
(06:17):
Become traumatized and wow.
Yeah.
Often this has not beenappreciated.
In fact I wanted to provoke morediscussion in the theatrical
world.
So I created a term postdramatic stress as my
provocation to say there's posttraumatic stress, which sadly
has not been taken seriously inthe past.
(06:39):
You know, it used to beidentified after World War I as
just an issue of some, you know,people who just weren't up to
being effective soldiers.
Yes.
Rather than recognizing as humanbeings.
And just as it's been reallyhard to support people who
experience either traumadirectly or vicariously.
(06:59):
Via witnessing otherstraumatization.
It's been hard to advocate forthat because it wasn't taken
seriously.
And so I wanted to say, I reckonit's also happening with actors
as well, and we need to do moreresearch into that area.
And that, fortunately, has beendone now and there's now a whole
emerging conversation andpractical tools to help actors
(07:22):
prepare for traumatic roles andthen debrief from those roles
and destress from those roles aswell.
So yeah, the whole notion ofvicarious trauma, taking on a
role, letting go of a role, thisis what I'm fascinated by.
Dr Nat Green (07:42):
What a fascinating path to navigate.
Really.
I hadn't even thought of that.
That when you take on the rolethat.
Your nervous system doesn't knowthe difference.
Doesn't know whether you areexperiencing it or pretending to
experience it, and all of thattrauma and those experiences
(08:02):
would absolutely be stuck inyour nervous system.
Dr Mark Seton (08:04):
And indeed our act of wellbeing study of 2013
found that at least 40% ofactors who we surveyed and we
had 768 participate in thestudy.
So 40% of them activelyacknowledged that they had
troubles with debriefing fromtraumatizing roles.
You know, while the other twothirds it's not an issue, maybe
(08:25):
they've never had to do atraumatic role.
But for those, yes.
40% it, and that was acrossstage and screen production.
Sometimes people say, ohunderstandably, in the stage
production, you are living therole for six weeks or maybe
years if you're doing a musicaltheater.
Such roles as playingtraumatized characters in like
(08:46):
Miss Saigon or the many operawomen who die at the end of
operas.
These, you know, it surprisedpeople when we put out the
results that actually musicaltheater has a lot of trauma.
And you wouldn't associatemusical theater with trauma.
But it's just one of the areasin which actors have difficulty
(09:08):
in letting go and debriefingfrom their roles that they play.
Dr Nat Green (09:13):
And I guess that comes with someone who's really
good at their job.
Dr Mark Seton (09:18):
Yes.
That if
Dr Nat Green (09:19):
a good actor will take on that whole persona, the
personality, everything, fullyembrace that role.
So it does it's part of then whothey are and who they become.
So it's so important that theylearn a process or a way to
separate themselves from thatrole and debrief at the end.
Dr Mark Seton (09:39):
And indeed, what I've found is that actually we
need to review the way in whichpeople believe they need to
create character even before.
The character they create mighthave trauma.
How they create the characterwill determine how effectively
they can let go of thecharacter.
And I think that's importantbecause then when we look at
other professionals, how theyhave trained to be an empathetic
(10:06):
partner in, in support ifthey've been trained in
particular ways that don't allowthem to let go, that's an issue
as well.
So it's not just about thedebriefing, it's about the
preparation as well.
At least that's been my livedexperience.
Dr Nat Green (10:21):
Yes.
Dr Mark Seton (10:22):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (10:22):
It's definitely, and then we look as well as not
just someone who's taking on arole or being trained, like I
mentioned that you worked withlawyers, with actors, but
helping professionals.
So I know as a psychologist in apast life, my background was
very much, that was my role andit was very much my identity.
Dr Mark Seton (10:43):
Because
Dr Nat Green (10:44):
I took it so seriously and I feel that I was
born to make a difference andhelp people.
And it very much became my roleand my identity, but there
really was not, you know, andI'm talking 35 years ago when I
was trained in that role, thatthere wasn't an acknowledgement
(11:07):
of the vicarious trauma and theimpact it would have.
Those realizations came later.
And what we often see is thatpeople get into certain
professions because they'redrawn to it, because of that
empathy and those charactertraits that they wanna do
something to help people andmake a difference.
Dr Mark Seton (11:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
Often our own woundedness fromour.
Past
Dr Nat Green (11:35):
Absolutely.
Dr Mark Seton (11:35):
Becomes a thing we both understand profoundly
but can also get still caught upin.
And so it's that and as you say,I think identity is a really
crucial factor if we aredependent on our role, our
identity, rather being thisrescuer helper or a rather than
(11:56):
our identity being just me as aperson prior to any agenda.
Yes.
Then we get that role confusion,empathy, confusion and that
undid me for a significantamount of time before I came to
some new insights around thatshift.
Dr Nat Green (12:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know we spoke the otherday when we were preparing for
this, so would you be okay if wetalk a little bit now about,
yeah.
I'd love you to share a bit ofan overview of your trauma and
what has happened for you,because honestly, I think this
story is so important, both whathappened and the lessons you
(12:36):
learned and.
How you've worked on movingforward?
Dr Mark Seton (12:40):
Yeah.
It's it was a relationship thatI chose to become a part of that
took me and my partner into aworld of uncertainty and trauma
and violence and many years ofpain and isolation.
(13:00):
So it's not like I was in aparticular event as rather a
relationship.
So that's probably good to a wayto set it up.
I met a girl, I fell in lovewith her and possibly part of
that helper that being in tunewith the pain of another Yes.
Possibly it was even happeningthen that I sense something in
(13:21):
her was troubled in need of careand empathy.
Whatever.
I identified I was going to bethe person the hero, the savior
who who understood her, couldcare for her, could be with her.
And that's how our relationshipstarted.
(13:41):
And gradually yeah, we became acouple there was an early
warning sign that I was actuallyout of my depth in the dynamics
of the relationship when I wasand I can't remember all the
details, whatever reason I waschoosing, just to have a bit of
a break from the relationship.
It was a fairly intenserelationship.
And she was having trouble andshe phoned me and we spoke and
(14:06):
she wanted me to come over andcomfort her.
And I said, no, I really can'tdo that.
And then she threatened suicide.
So I went and spent the timewith her.
So
Dr Nat Green (14:17):
of course that of course you did, because of
course I did.
That's who you are and what youwould do.
Yeah.
And for someone you care aboutnot knowing
Dr Mark Seton (14:25):
other strategies around, yeah.
Suicide ideation and so on.
That, and that just pulled mein.
So that very threat of suicide,which got repeated at other
points.
In the relationship was one ofthe reasons why I could not
escape this relationship that Icould see was not healthy, was
(14:47):
not mutually co productive.
And this is where I, you know,only in hindsight discovered
this cycle of distress thatcould lead to violence.
Was that whenever, we had adisagreement about how we were
perceiving the way things werein our attempt to form a
relationship and a lifestyleahead for the two of us as two
(15:10):
young people with differentkinds of career aspirations.
We'd have those times and thenwhen there'd be conflict,
increasingly I needed to see theworld her way, and that if I had
particular feelings, no, myfeelings were inaccurate, they
were wrong.
It's her feelings that mattered.
And so now, and if I dared tochallenge that, then things
(15:35):
would escalate to initiallyverbal violence and then later
on within the couple of years,physical violence.
Dr Nat Green (15:44):
Okay.
Dr Mark Seton (15:44):
And then after those moments of violence, then
there'd be the kind of remorse.
On her part, my part inreacting, and we come back to
this, what's sometimes calledthe honeymoon phase, where Yeah.
All is well between us.
And we can just get on with lifeand peculiarly.
We are the only ones whounderstand each other, which
(16:06):
isolates us Yes.
From family and friends.
Who increasingly can't be withus, connect with us in the same
kind, in a healthier,interdependent way, rather than
this codependency that we havenow established for each other.
Yes.
Very much.
Oh my goodness.
What a place to be in.
(16:28):
After then we got married.
We were very fortunate that Ihad.
Relatively stable income for atime.
And indeed one of my jobs wascaretaking university
accommodation.
So that while it didn't pay me,it provided accommodation I
worked, was endeavoring to workin the creative arts.
(16:49):
Creative arts, and not the bestcareer if you wanna have a
stable income.
No.
And my wife had come from abackground that was far more
stable.
I won't identify what kind ofthat was, but there was clash
and conflict that was not gonnaget easily resolved.
And then gradually I waspersuaded that, you know, maybe
(17:10):
the arts wasn't where I wasgonna have a.
Secure life, a stable life forus, and that maybe should look
an alternative career, which Istarted to pursue.
But her health circumstances,the dynamics of the
relationship, made that harderand harder until eventually we
lost that accommodation.
And so in the last six to 12months, we were effectively
(17:33):
without a real home like wewere.
Bed surf.
What's it?
Dr Nat Green (17:37):
Couch surfing.
Dr Mark Seton (17:38):
Couch surfing.
Bed surfing.
Felt like it couch surfing.
Dr Nat Green (17:42):
A lot of destabilisation
Dr Mark Seton (17:44):
Yeah.
And the violence.
And I was now running away fromhome because we'd been advised
by a GP that maybe one day Imight hit out in defense, she
would be hurt, police would becalled.
It was an age 30 years ago whereit was usually the man who was
the perpetrator of domesticviolence in my case.
(18:07):
It was the other way around.
And there were no resources thatI was aware of for men running
away from domestic violence.
So I was using chairs at CentralStation hotel lobbies libraries
to catch up on sleep.
And but I would always go back.
Dr Nat Green (18:27):
Can I just ask then, as you know, as you said
30 years ago, this, it was notspoken about.
Even domestic violence from amale to a female wasn't really
spoken about, but for thatreverse, for that female towards
a male was very rarely eventhought that things would happen
(18:51):
like that.
So did you talk to anyone aboutit, or you just kept it to
yourself?
Dr Mark Seton (18:57):
So we were seeing psychologists or so
psychiatrists at one point.
So we were trying to getcounseling along the way and gp.
So they were acknowledging theproblem.
They were pointing to why mypartner needed to stop reacting
in the way that she wasreacting.
(19:18):
But none of those things madefor any long-term change.
And we had friends who over theyears we acquired and at one
point those friends provided asafe place for me to be, for a
night or so.
But she was coming out to thefront of the house and yelling
(19:42):
for me to come out, and theywere bringing the police to take
her away.
And so all of that.
It was just a mess.
Yeah, it sounds, and so there,as you say, there, there were no
resources.
And there, while there was thelistening ear of various
counselors, close friendsprobably the, one of the
(20:03):
contributors to my finallybreaking free this was seeing a
counselor, a fresh counseloraround actually vocational
changes that I was okayendeavoring to make.
And that person said, this isn'treally what your problem is
about the vocational changes.
And somehow I think that gave mepermission to share with this
(20:23):
person things that maybe Ihadn't had to share with others.
They gave me a bit of a newperspective that effectively my
relationship had died.
So that was a very confrontingthing to for me particularly as
a person of faith as well.
So I have a Christian faith asdid my partner so for us to
consider failure separation,these were things very foreign
(20:48):
to the kind of church world thatwe had grown up with.
So those were huge value thingsthat I was now facing when I
made the decision to separate.
Dr Nat Green (21:02):
Yeah.
So let's go to that point then.
So back then, yeah.
You finally were able to share alittle bit more with someone
independent who wasn't workingwith the two of you who could
give you that new perspectiveand you hadn't seen it.
Through those eyes.
What happened then when yourecognized that and were able to
(21:22):
make that decision to dosomething different?
Dr Mark Seton (21:26):
I think there were two factors that
contributed to being able tomake that next move.
So one was a time, just a coupleof months prior to breaking away
was having a kind of a quietmoment down in a park for
myself.
And just feeling the immensely,the burden of this
(21:49):
responsibility and not knowingwhat to do and and really
feeling a sense of God or higherpower.
However, people want tounderstand that.
But saying that actually I wascreated to be me and not to try
and be someone else that was.
Very profound.
So in terms of identity, yes,you can see why identity is
(22:12):
crucial.
So that was a really, that was akey unlocked that I should enjoy
and celebrate being me and nottry and fit in, pretend to be
someone that I wasn't.
Yeah.
And that was causing me too muchdistress.
And then the other thing thathappened around the same time
(22:32):
was I something that I had lovedmany years ago, which was
singing and choral work music,there was a new opportunity to
learn how to teach acapellasinging gospel.
Or African American gospelsinging.
And I had confidence many yearsago to run a choir.
And so the opportunity to run anew choir, having been trained,
(22:55):
fed my soul in the way that Ihadn't experienced for the
preceding seven or eight years.
And I believe that.
Doing something that I enjoyedthat reminded me of my own
self-worth combined with owningmy own identity and the inside
of my relationship has diedeffectively.
(23:16):
And I could start to grievethat.
Yes, those three factors gave methe power, I believe on a
Wednesday morning when mypartner and I were just heading
away from one meeting and shesaid, we need to now go and see
the doctor and get a fresh newstarted.
And I thought, here we go again.
(23:38):
This is the cycle.
Yeah.
She went through the gates of arailway station.
I said, I'm not coming with you.
And I ran.
Dr Nat Green (23:47):
Oh wow.
For my
Dr Mark Seton (23:48):
life.
And how
Dr Nat Green (23:49):
brave really that,
Dr Mark Seton (23:51):
that was.
Yeah I was hypervigilant.
You know, part of trauma ishypervigilance.
Absolutely.
By this time I was veryhypervigilant and and this was
the day I actually went andfound the counselor with whom
I'd had these initial insightsand just kind of said, this is
where I'm at now.
And I felt okay about thatbreak.
And then I contacted my parentsfor the first time to actually
(24:15):
tell them the truth, to tellthem why I had been this
estranged son, and that theynever really knew why I'd
changed in my behavior, in myvalues the way I had.
And I went to stay with them.
And that was the beginning of mynew life.
That was, you can imagine therewere post effect complexities,
(24:36):
but that was the turning point.
Dr Nat Green (24:38):
Wow.
And really the courage, I wantto acknowledge the courage that
took.
Yep.
And that ability now torecognize Yep.
Your identity.
Dr Mark Seton (24:50):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (24:51):
You reconnected with your values.
Yes.
What deep down was important,and it sounds like you did that
through that creative part ofyou that hadn't been allowed to
exist in the way that younaturally.
Definitely had all your lifeprior to the relationship.
Dr Mark Seton (25:10):
Yes.
So all those things fed that.
And then as I reflected on howdid I ever get to the violence
space and then there was a lotof, you know, need to deal with
my tendency towards codependencybeing the hero, being the
rescuer.
That was a pattern that I nowneeded to consciously address in
(25:31):
ways I'd never done before.
So that was a ongoing part ofhealing and counseling support
and so on.
But it was a, I recognize nowthe need to have interdependency
Yeah.
Rather than codependency.
So there's a lot of new learningI needed to take as I free
(25:51):
myself from this relationship.
Dr Nat Green (25:54):
Yeah.
So when you talk about you madethe decision you ran for your
life, how long.
Was that period between thathappening and when you felt that
you were safe in inverted commaswhen you felt a bit safer to
move on and be you Yep.
(26:14):
And live the life you wanted.
What sort of timeframe was that?
Dr Mark Seton (26:17):
Oh, it was a few years.
It was a few years and I thinkvarious choices I made that were
about exercising myindependence.
Because I was now needing tofind I didn't have a job'cause I
hadn't had a job.
I'd been actually planning totrain for ministry, ordained
(26:38):
ministry.
Okay.
Prior to this that was not gonnawork as a divorced person really
in that sort of scenario.
So it was starting afresh and Ihad.
When I was thinking of makingall these vocational changes
with my partner at the time Ihad put in a application for a
combined arts law degree atUniversity of New South Wales,
(27:00):
for which I was accepted.
So I actually had a sense of anew path.
Reconnecting with my artsfoundation.
So that was.
Feeding me as well.
Yeah, I did various short-termcourses that also reaffirmed my
creative connectedness.
And so yes, I think it wasaround those things.
It was then developing newfriendships and indeed a new
(27:24):
relationship.
But now recognizing what Iwasn't gonna go back to, this is
a meeting of equals rather thanme being a rescuer.
So learning about that and notfalling into, and my new partner
helping me not fall back into acodependent where I was just
doing things that would pleaseher and not, you know, what did
(27:46):
I want?
So I would now be clear aboutwhat my needs were.
I'm learning a new way of beingin relationship, and that was
important because for me, beingresilient.
In my vulnerability as I like tophrase it, has been a big
learning over those few yearsand has continued.
(28:08):
How can I be have relationshipsagain, friendships and intimate
relationships again withoutlosing my sense of self without
feeling I have to disconnect inorder to be safe.
I can now be safe, but I canalso be open.
And that's really importantbecause I believe, you know,
(28:30):
it's through our openness thatwe connect with others.
And so we aren't these shut offthings.
And while it's appropriate, wehave boundaries, I see them as
now permeable, malleableboundaries that I can determine
in relation to others.
And so all of that reflectionand lived experience happen over
the few years.
(28:52):
Immediately after therelationship broke off, I went
and did a new degree.
I'd never done a degree before,actually.
So this is my, I was a matureage student, but this time I
absolutely knew where I wantedto go with that degree.
So that was in the theater andphilosophy with my two majors.
Dr Nat Green (29:08):
So that lived experience really fueled your
new direction.
Definitely.
And I love, and you've said it acouple of times, you've used the
word vulnerability and I lovethat so much because, and this
is something I see particularlyin the area with helping
professionals.
We are very reluctant.
(29:30):
It's almost like we have thisperception that we need to be
seen as strong.
Yes.
Together.
We can't be seen as having anyissues or being human really.
That we're.
Put ourselves on this pedestaland others often put us on that
Yes.
Pedestal.
Yes.
And it's so unrealistic.
(29:52):
Yes.
We are human.
We will make mistakes, we willlive through things and
hopefully learn as we do that.
So tell me a bit more about thatvulnerability.
Dr Mark Seton (30:05):
So I'm a scholar, I'm a researcher, so I'm gonna
own that part of me as well.
Please do.
I love the work of MargritShildrick and she wrote about
vulnerability and she talkedabout it's an innate part of
being human.
So I feel like for those whowant to not be vulnerable or
think that it's a bad thing, weneed to get over that.
(30:27):
'cause I feel scholars likeMargrit Shildrick have
reaffirmed the innate.
Essence of being vulnerable.
We are vulnerable as humanbeings.
But then I have a philosopherRosalyn Diprose, who very nicely
define vulnerability as thecapacity to affect and be
affected by the other.
(30:47):
So the capacity to affect and beaffected by the other.
And you'll notice there's novalue judgment there.
It's not like that's a badeffect.
It could be a bad effect or itcould be a good effect.
Like it's an, but it is just aneffect and it's effect of my
ability to affect you and othersand you or others to affect me,
(31:09):
that creates this circuit ofvulnerability.
And for actors, theirwillingness to affect and be
affected by a text is what'srequired in order to be
vulnerable and open to play thattext out.
That vulnerability and as yousay, the perception that we have
(31:31):
to, that somehow professionalequals not being vulnerable or
not being human.
I see as a historical trap thatwe as a western culture have
fallen into where we put humanbeings who happen to be trained
in certain disciplines.
We put them on a pedestalperhaps, to honor them, you
(31:53):
know, the years of work they'vedone, the pay that they might
attract.
Dr Nat Green (31:59):
Yeah.
Dr Mark Seton (32:00):
And then we set them up for failure because
they're now no longer feelingthey can be a human being.
They now have to be thisprofessional who can make no
mistakes.
Who is almost above the law.
Yeah.
And then includes lawyers and.
And they carry that burden offeeling.
(32:22):
They must do it.
So that sets them up forfailure?
Yes, definitely.
Because they carry the burdenand they will self-medicate to
manage that.
Burden through drugs, throughalcohol, through whatever.
And we feed that by elevatingthem.
And so here we have a reallyunhealthy circle of codependency
(32:42):
or Yes.
Addictive kind of qualities.
Rather than say bringing themback down and saying they're
partners with us, our partnerswith us in healing.
So it would be great for mydoctor to be a human being who
can partner with me in findingout what I need to do in terms
of my health and wellbeing.
(33:03):
They don't need to reallyposition themself as the person
who all has all the answers.
I.
Because that's actually not ahuman being.
That's no.
And the way that I attempt to,when I'm doing coaching and I
can hear my client starting toelevate me, I will act actively
(33:24):
say, no, I'm just a human beinglike you.
I just happen to have someinsights that maybe will be
helpful to you and I'm delightedwhen they help you.
And I'll make mistakes and I'llmisjudge what I'm hearing you
say and I'll need to apologizeand we'll need to repair a
relationship that's come alittle wonky as soon time.
(33:46):
But I find it so much of arelief to remind myself and to
remind others that we're allhuman beings working hard to
make meaning together.
That's another.
Key principle of working at tomake meaning together.
That's comes from complexitytheory of Ralph Stacy.
So I've been living outinterweaving these values of we
(34:11):
are innately vulnerable.
We, vulnerability is simply thecapacity to affect and be
affected by the other, which Ithink we all need.
Agreed.
And in fact, we're, we are allpartners in.
The fact that I think Covid veryaptly demonstrated how
vulnerable we are because we allbreathe air, and so that was a
(34:31):
reminder that yes, we arevulnerable and to minimize
vulnerability or to, I don'tknow, you know, that doesn't
actually add up.
But we can practice self-care.
Perial boundaries.
In fact, at the moment I'mresearching what we as human
bodies do at the cellular levelourselves are remarkably
(34:53):
intelligent to know what to letin and what to let out.
Dr Nat Green (34:57):
And I think with that also adds weight to when
you said the actors take on arole and the body gets confused.
All that is at a cellular leveltoo.
Absolutely.
That nervous system and cellularlevel that it's so easy to see
how we can get confused.
(35:17):
Yep.
And how we can actually playsuch a huge part in challenging
that.
Dr Mark Seton (35:24):
Yeah.
And indeed.
So I've now developed somepractical activities to help
actors how to better prepare andthen debrief after taking on a
traumatic role, which we may getto talk about.
Yes,
Dr Nat Green (35:38):
yes, definitely.
And I think as you were justsaying then, I know you've got
some really amazing littletricks that you're gonna share
with us soon.
Yep.
So let's just look then, how doyou think what you've been
through and that experience hastransformed your perspective on
(36:01):
life, on relationships orpersonal values?
Dr Mark Seton (36:04):
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
It's a what a rich question.
I think it's transformed my lifein terms of understanding
relationships in a more healthyway, which, and others have
found, you know, I'm not thefirst to discover it.
So understanding the differencebetween codependency and, in a
(36:25):
sense, autonomy andinterdependency.
I have really come to appreciateand value our interdependency as
human beings in the world.
And the western notion ofautonomy that you can just look
after yourself has beenchallenged by some great
feminist writers who talk aboutrelational resilience.
(36:48):
So I'm very excited by the workthey've done and have embraced
their discussion about that weactually can't even claim
resilience just on our own.
We need others to support us,nurture us keep us accountable
and so on.
So I think that's been profoundimpact on my life.
(37:08):
I think also the work of apractice, and this actually
feeds into what I'll be sharinginterplay now.
Interplay is a practice that wasdeveloped by two Americans about
now.
Probably about 40 years ago.
And I started training in thatpractice about 25 years ago.
And it's a practice of twodancer come theologian type
(37:33):
people who didn't quite feel athome in the church world.
'cause they didn't like dance,didn't feel quite at home at the
times in the dance world'causethey didn't feel comfortable
with religion.
And they've crossed those worldsand they've brought movement and
voice and song and storytellingand being playful and using
(37:56):
these tools to help peopleconnect with themselves and
connect with each other.
And so the tools that theydeveloped and brought out to
Australia, as I say about 25.
So years ago, I discovered themat the beginning of my PhD,
which is looking at thevulnerability of actors.
(38:16):
And that was a remarkableliberation for me to really feel
now embodied and connected in aeven more profound way in terms
of vulnerability.
One of the key things that myteacher in interplay, who's one
of the co-founders, because Iwas a scholar, love words, love
critical thinking, but shereally liberated me when she
(38:39):
said, after observing mydeveloping skills, and then she
said I know you love workingwith words, but could you dance
with your words?
Ooh.
And it was like, oh, yes, Icould do that.
So that, that opened up thefloodgates.
And she knows this.
I've thanked her many times forthat note saying, could you
(39:01):
dance with your words?
As that's provided a much morepermeability, flexibility and
honoring the primacy of play inmy life, which I now pass on to
others as well.
So in a way, interdependencyembodiment and play are core
(39:21):
virtues, values that I seek tolive out in my life and my
relationships now.
Dr Nat Green (39:28):
Oh, I love that because how often, oh, you must
see it as well, but I see it allthe time that when I've been
working with people who've beenthrough trauma come out the
other side, one thing that hasbecome so disconnected is their
capacity to have fun and toplay.
We've lost.
(39:49):
It's almost like we've had to beso serious.
Yes.
Because of what we've gonethrough, that sense of
responsibility and that notreally wanting to be vulnerable.
So we cut out that play and thatfun.
So now sounds like the perfectopportunity for us to have a
(40:11):
little play.
Oh yeah.
And I'm going to put myself veryvulnerably on the line, and I'd
love to have you share what Icould do, what could be a
strategy for me and for all thelisteners who have been through
trauma or experiencing thevicarious trauma and are
(40:32):
starting to think, oh, maybe Icould learn something about
this.
How can you help me?
What can you teach me to do?
Be
Dr Mark Seton (40:40):
delighted, Natalie.
And just picking up from thatjoy aspect of play, Dr.
Brene Brown, who I suspect manyof your listeners wouldn't be
familiar with who my favorite
Dr Nat Green (40:50):
vulnerability researcher.
And I was biting my tongue, notto say her, before
Dr Mark Seton (40:55):
I'll name her as well in the room.
I but I was working on my stuffwith vulnerability before she
became public, so it's I'm justglad that she's there too.
And it's become a face of that.
But she talks about how theimportance of leaning into joy.
Yes.
And so I see that playfulness isabout part of that.
Yes.
What I'm gonna take us throughand for your listeners just with
(41:16):
that kind of caveat up front ifthis feels uncomfortable for
you, just let it go.
And maybe now's not the time to.
To do that, but to again honorlistening to ourselves and what
I'm gonna do is gonna take youthrough what I use with actors
and with lawyers have done thistoo.
If that helps give permission tosome people who are listening to
(41:37):
go a lawyer wouldn't do that.
I can say, actually, I have awhole bunch of lawyers who do
this.
I'm gonna take you through anactivity and then I'll tell you
how you'll use this activity,perhaps at the beginning of a
time where you're gonna do someserious work, and then at the
end of the time, so it's like a.
Top and tail or a warmup and acool down.
(41:58):
So if you'd like to, and peoplelistening at home, you can't see
this, but we're gonna extend ourarm just ahead in front of us
and we're now just gonna do nicesmooth movements with that hand
and arm, wherever we like.
There's no particular way we aregoing to go, but we're just
doing nice smooth movements andnow we're gonna do play with
(42:23):
some jerky movements.
So just letting that jerkiness,that awkwardness of our hand and
arm.
Do that jerkiness.
And if your arm gets tired, youcan swap over.
And now we're gonna do slowmovements with our hand and arm,
slow movements.
Just see how slow you canactually get with these
(42:45):
movements.
Now, fast movements and you canreally play with fast movements
and hand and arm.
Okay.
And now you're gonna stopwherever your arm and hand are,
and you'll notice you've got abit of a shape there with your
hand and arm without thinkingabout it.
Just change to a new shape withthat hand and arm.
(43:08):
And now change again and again.
You are not letting yourselfjudge this, oh, this is not good
enough, or whatever.
You're just making a shape andagain, and another shape, and
now making contact with thathand and arm with part of your
body.
Just feel that connection toyourself and now making contact
(43:30):
with another part of your bodyin connection to yourself.
Okay, so just take a breath inand let out a sigh.
Ah, wow.
So those are the physicalactivities, so we'll just
revisit that.
Now we can do.
Fast.
(43:51):
We can do slow, we can dosmooth, we can do jerky, we can
freeze and hold a shape, and wecan make contact with a part of
our body.
So what I'd now encourage,anyone who's just done those
(44:11):
things is now put on a piece ofinstrumental music, not with
words.
We don't wanna be distracted bywhat the words are saying.
We just want an instrumentalmusic.
Whatever instrumental music youjust feel like connecting with
them, going with, put on thatpiece of music, close your eyes
and play with fast and slow,smooth and jerky holding
(44:36):
stillness.
Whatever you feel you, your bodywants you to do in response or
even counter to the music.
And just do that three or four,five minutes at the end of it.
Keep your eyes closed and justnotice what that felt like.
Particularly notice what youenjoyed, and you might then want
(44:56):
to journal that down if you'reby yourself.
Journal that down what younoticed, and particularly what
you enjoyed.
We are really good at going, oh,I didn't trust myself enough,
or, I got that wrong and I don'tunderstand what you're trying to
do.
Let go of all that.
What did you notice?
What did you enjoy?
Do that at the beginning of awhole lot of tasks.
(45:19):
Then do it at the end.
Now you might use the same pieceof music and just see what you
do with it.
This time, maybe you now feelthe need for a different kind of
music, and that has been afoundational tool.
I've worked with actors becausethey have given permission for
their body.
To do these handouts and theymight do two hands.
(45:41):
They might even do a full bodydance, and they do that as a
warmup and a cool down.
It's like establishing yourground of being as you before
you take on the role, and thenyou return to just you and the
music and your body does thetrick.
The hand dance is one of thecomponents of interplay and as a
(46:05):
registered interplayer, I'mallowed to be able to use those
tools in my practice.
Dr Nat Green (46:10):
And it was funny as I did that, I felt that sense
of almost a rhythm and a flowgoing through me.
And I feel even more groundedjust sitting here now.
And that's
Dr Mark Seton (46:23):
without the music.
Dr Nat Green (46:25):
Yeah.
And I didn't have the music on.
So I have the music when I don'thave people listening to my
music.
'cause it, that's may not bewhat they like to hear.
Dr Mark Seton (46:34):
Exactly.
Yeah.
By giving yourself permission togive what your body is needing
by the selection of the musicyou choose.
So you might choose somethingthat's very melodic and peaceful
or you might choose somethingthat's really agitating and
rocky kind of music.
You know, different people,different needs listening to the
body.
(46:55):
Allowing the body.
And that's why we avoid lyrics.
Because it brings in the lefthand side of the brain, I think.
Where we're using text and wordscreative
Dr Nat Green (47:03):
part.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Mark Seton (47:05):
And we want rather than the analytic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We wanna get into that away fromthe analytic with words and so
on.
Dr Nat Green (47:11):
Yeah.
Oh, that, that's really helpful.
And I'm sure that our listenerswill have really found that of
great interest and I'd love forthem to send through some
feedback.
Yes.
That would be lovely to see.
To know how that felt, how feltfor them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think any practical toollike that, that can help them to
(47:32):
separate Yep.
From that past stuff or the oldstuff, or what else might be
going on now and just getgrounded in the here and now and
have some joy in play.
Dr Mark Seton (47:43):
And it's really connected, like to your joy.
Yes.
What brings you joy, which Ithink so and so here we are
feeding our innate self ratherthan prior to any identity we
have in any role.
Dr Nat Green (47:56):
Or
Dr Mark Seton (47:56):
whatever.
And
Dr Nat Green (47:57):
no expectations and no judgment.
It's just, yeah.
Going with what we need and whatour.
Body and soul need.
Yeah.
Rather than what we think itneeds.
Yes.
'cause that cognitive level ofconscious stuff just continues
to shut off the unconsciouslevel of what we know we need
(48:17):
when we really, truly listen toour own bodies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
So tell me, do you think there'sany specific qualities or
personal attributes that you'venoticed through your own lived
experience, but also in the workthat you're doing with all these
(48:38):
people helping professionals,actors, lawyers, in the work
that you are doing?
Anything you'd see as key formoving from trauma and into
post-traumatic growth?
Dr Mark Seton (48:51):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think a key thing is, one,yeah, one key thing is
recognizing trauma is going tohappen.
So sorry about that.
Yep.
Any, anyone who's promising,here's the solution to trauma
free, whatever.
No, I'm sorry.
(49:11):
We live in a world that isvulnerable and is subject to not
only to human crises, but justnatural crises that can then
impact and traumatize us aswell.
So I think so that's when I'vebeen writing around the work on,
I say, when you experience this,yes, these are the things you
need to consider.
(49:32):
However given that's a given, ifwe are.
Preparing our mind, heart, andsoul and body to be flexible and
playful and compassionate aroundthese things, I think sets us up
rather than the kind of worldwhere we are still believing
(49:54):
that our professionals have tobe heroes and then end up
becoming martyrs.
Yes.
That, that's setting us up forfailure.
And for prolonged.
Trauma impacts because if ouridentity is caught up in being
the hero, being the martyr, wethen we're working at cross
(50:16):
purposes where we are trying tobe this super hero, not, we're
not feeling we can say no, we'renot saying we do need
boundaries.
We do need rest.
We need recovery time fromtrauma.
We need time for healing, weneed time for renewal.
(50:37):
We need to both acclimatize, Iuse the metaphor of climbing for
peak performance.
Yes.
And I think this applies notonly to actors, but I think any
professional who wants to strivefor peak performance.
That peak performance is apretty rarefied existence where
everything is working at peakcondition.
(50:57):
You know, you're working in thetop of your game.
You can't sustain that for verylong.
And you can't live up there andthere's at times a bit of a buzz
in living up there, which can bevery attractive, maybe even
addictive I might propose.
Yes.
And that's where actors wannalive up in the heights of
(51:18):
performance.
And when they have to confrontthe post-production blues, which
you actually do call this inacting post performance blues,
rather than own the discomfortand the pain and process that
through hand dances and variousthings they try to lift
themselves back up into the buzzof the heights with
(51:39):
self-medicating or try andmanage the depression with
self-medicating.
Yeah.
And this is where we end up withactors.
Who are having issues withalcohol and other strategies.
So we need to learn toacclimatize and then de
acclimatize again.
I see body wisdom teaches usthis.
(52:01):
The body can adapt to more rareidea when we are in our peak
performance, but we really can'tlive up there.
And most of our significantrelationships are actually down
here in the everyday of life.
Actors need to know, after theirrole, they're gonna have to put
out the washing or relate totheir partner and their kids as
themselves or, and their otherroles as parent and so on.
(52:24):
So we need skills to acclimatizeand de acclimatize that will, I
believe then enable us to managethe inevitable traumas that
appear with the body's wisdom,skills.
And remember the relationalresilience skills Exactly.
Or feed into this.
(52:44):
So this in fact becomes anecosystem.
That's how I frame it as a youknow, embodied vulnerability
ecosystem that honors ourvulnerability, our embodiedness,
our interconnectedness, and ourinterdependency.
And knows that we weren't meantto be these heroes come martyrs,
(53:05):
but to be good professionalhuman beings.
I say to actors, you're not anactor.
You're a human being who acts
Dr Nat Green (53:15):
Exactly.
So you're not a
Dr Mark Seton (53:17):
doctor, you're a person who provides skills in
healing and in fact, the gooddoctors probably are the ones
who say, actually, I don't do, Ijust set up the healing
environment for the body.
The body is the thing thatactually does the healing.
And that's with great respect tomy doctor.
So of course I saw a physio andhe knew his craft, and he could
(53:42):
help me understand how I couldpartner with him in the healing
of my knee.
And so that was a greatpartnership, respecting his
expertise.
But I never put him on apedestal, and he treated me as a
partner, you know, given me theexercises to do so together, we
achieved a good outcome.
So I think it can be modeledthat way
Dr Nat Green (54:03):
definitely.
So that mutually respected,embodied wisdom.
So we embody the wisdom of theperson in that position, but
it's a mutual arrangement, sothey also respect us and embody
that with us.
Yeah.
So that we're working togetherfor this better outcome because,
(54:24):
as you said.
Given the way the world is thesedays, trauma is inevitable.
And as you said, anyone who'slived through Covid Yep.
Knows that whole communityexperience
Dr Mark Seton (54:38):
Yeah.
Of
Dr Nat Green (54:39):
trauma and how we did or didn't manage that as
well or as badly as we didregardless.
It's that shared experience.
Dr Mark Seton (54:50):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (54:51):
And it's how we navigate that and are vulnerable
and willing to embrace thefeedback.
Dr Mark Seton (54:57):
And this is where the playfulness allows us to
make those incremental stepsback to a new place so that we
are not feeling the moment wehave discomfort, we become
hypervigilant and we run awayagain.
And so many of our young actorswho went through Covid as much
younger I.
People we've found it verychallenging to invite them to
(55:19):
the same kind of level ofappropriate risk Taking that a
few years ago was quitecomfortable for our students.
They were already used to inlife, you know, having a bit of
a fall here, a bit of amiscommunication with the
relationship there, and theylost that skill, that capacity.
(55:40):
So we've had to find ways tohelp ease them back into that.
Dr Nat Green (55:44):
Yeah.
So as we move to wrapping theconversation up, I know that you
are working on some amazingstuff at the moment and you've
got a survey.
So where can our listeners findout more about you and find you
online, but can you also sharethat of how our listeners can
help you?
Dr Mark Seton (56:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I think the best point ofcontact for me would be through
my email address.
So that's mcseton@bigpond.comand yes, you're right.
I am currently doing a study onwhat I'm framing as in terms of
this vulnerability.
I'm avoiding using the wordvulnerable and I'm talking about
(56:25):
open-heartedness.
Or open-hearted professionals.
So I'll be, there's a link thatbe provided here as a URL link
and maybe as a QR code as well.
Yeah.
We'll put in the show notes.
Yeah.
Great.
So love anyone who'd like to,who identifies as an
open-hearted professional comevulnerable, professional to
(56:48):
participate in the survey.
And then I will be sending topeople who sign up to do the
survey if they provide theiremail address, a final report on
my findings of what does it taketo be resilient.
As open-hearted professionalsand I hope to have that report
and indeed a webinar out in midto late June.
(57:10):
But the survey I'm closing offeither towards the end of this
week or early next week forpeople who want to participate.
But if people want to find outmore about how I'm providing
supportive services in terms ofidentity, I have created a, your
professional uniqueness tool,which I can pass on to people.
(57:32):
And then a larger programlooking at embodied
vulnerability ecosystem, whichwe've shared some of the things
around that.
So they're the, some of the waysthat people can participate with
me further if they'reinterested.
Dr Nat Green (57:45):
How exciting.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I would highly recommendthat we, as many of our
listeners as possible really.
Participate in that surveybecause there's so many of our
listeners who are exactly whatyou said, open-hearted
professionals.
And I think the world needs usto be vulnerable and open
(58:08):
ourselves to what happens whenwe do that.
Because as you've beautifullyshowed us today, you've gone
from, you know, the absolutebottomless pit and managed to
pull yourself out and are livingan amazing life now.
Dr Mark Seton (58:27):
Yes, indeed.
It's a great life to be out ofthat black hole.
Dr Nat Green (58:30):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
One thing I always like to askmy amazing guests at the end is
what do you think your youngerself would think of what you've
achieved?
Dr Mark Seton (58:42):
I think a sense of surprise and delight.
So surprising that it's not thepath I thought I was going, but
actual delight in that it's amore profoundly personally
valuable, but also actuallymaking a real contribution to
(59:03):
society and to the world ofhuman beings.
So I'm just very excited tocontinue the journey I find
myself in now.
Yes, I think that's how we wouldlook at that for me now.
Dr Nat Green (59:15):
Amazing.
And really, that must be sovalidating to know you've come
so far and that you arecontributing in such an amazing
way in the world.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story with us today and
your wisdom and that amazingexercise.
I look forward to engaging inmore joy.
(59:36):
So thank you, lovely for beingon the show.
Thank you, Mark thanks
Dr Mark Seton (59:39):
Natalie.
Appreciate it.
Dr Nat Green (59:41):
Bye for now
Dr Mark Seton (59:42):
bye.
Dr Nat Green (59:47):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(01:00:09):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(01:00:29):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates.
Then I invite you to hitSubscribe and it would mean the
world to us if you could sharethis episode with others who you
feel may benefit too.
You may also find me onInstagram at Growing Tall
(01:00:50):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons.
And to learn and increase yourability to live the life you
desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(01:01:11):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now.
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm really pleased and gratefultoday to bring you our next
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
(01:30):
It's my absolute pleasure andprivilege to welcome a lovely
man who I met recently throughan event for podcasters, and he
has experienced and overcomeconsiderable trauma and
adversity throughout his life,and has so generously agreed to
come and chat with us todayabout his experience.
(01:51):
So let me start by introducingMark to you all.
Dr.
Mark Seton is an honorary.
Research associate in thediscipline of theater and
performance studies with theUniversity of Sydney Australia.
He's also an educator andconsultant for Sense Connexion,
which he established to empoweropen-hearted professionals such
(02:12):
as actors, lawyers, and healthpractitioners whose capacity for
empathy and sensitivity iscrucial to their effectiveness
and success.
He was amazingly awarded aChurchill Fellowship in 2009 to
conduct a study tour of actortraining healthcare practices in
the UK.
(02:33):
Arising from this study, theEquity Foundation in
collaboration with theUniversity of Sydney initiated
an internationallygroundbreaking actor's wellbeing
study in 2013.
And Mark is a founding member ofthe Australian Society for
Performing Arts Healthcare, aboard member on the
(02:53):
International Performing ArtsMedicine Association and Chair
of the Human Research EthicsCommittee of the Australian
University of Theology.
So that's quite a broad, rangeof things there, Mark.
So welcome.
It's so great to have you here.
Dr Mark Seton (03:12):
Thanks Natalie, and delightful to first meet you
at the podcast and now to sharethis longer conversation.
Looking forward to it.
Dr Nat Green (03:20):
Excellent.
And as I said, it's a delightfor me to have you here.
So can we start, I know I gave abit of an introduction, but can
we start with you giving us abrief introduction of who you
are and what you do in the worldthese days?
Dr Mark Seton (03:36):
Yes.
And I like the way you framethat because who I am, I feel
I'm constantly becoming more ofmyself, celebrating my
uniqueness the things I do asyou've already indicated in the
area of education.
I do teaching of actors,particularly in areas of
wellbeing.
But I also look at things like.
History of theater and historyof screen production those sorts
(03:59):
of areas.
But I have a growing interest inresearching and advocating for
the wellbeing, not only ofcreatives who often are subject
to sacrificing themselves fortheir art.
But I've noticed through myengagement with people like
lawyers through the law wellnessnetwork of the last 12 or so
(04:20):
years they too struggle to findthat balance of being connected
to others, empathetic withothers, and yet also having
those healthy boundaries.
And also they encountervicarious trauma.
And so I felt this growingconnection between myself and
other professionals who maybehave encountered trauma or by
(04:41):
necessity are working withpeople who have been
traumatized.
And bringing my own life journeyof trauma and in the ways I've
found resilience through my ownvulnerability, that's what
really drives me now is I wantto provide more and more of that
insight and service toprofessionals in that area.
Dr Nat Green (05:02):
Oh, I love this so much.
And you touched on so manythings that are of huge interest
to me.
And as you know, I've pivoted alittle of late and we are really
looking at what I think, andyou've beautifully articulated,
is a growing need to recognizethe vicarious trauma.
(05:22):
That we often aren't speakingabout that when you are in a
role where you are helpingpeople and giving so much of
yourself to others as you'vedone for so long, and the people
we work with have done, I firmlybelieve that vicarious trauma is
such a huge thing that is oftenunderplayed, downplayed or just
(05:46):
completely ignored, and we don'tspeak about it.
So I'm excited for thisconversation.
Dr Mark Seton (05:52):
Indeed.
And I might add I just love theway you've framed it in terms of
roles and hence why mybeginnings, this area in the
area of acting.
So actors take on roles Yes.
Roles that have encounteredtrauma.
So the, that the body doesn'tknow the difference between
fiction and reality.
And so actors playing outtraumatizing roles.
(06:17):
Become traumatized and wow.
Yeah.
Often this has not beenappreciated.
In fact I wanted to provoke morediscussion in the theatrical
world.
So I created a term postdramatic stress as my
provocation to say there's posttraumatic stress, which sadly
has not been taken seriously inthe past.
(06:39):
You know, it used to beidentified after World War I as
just an issue of some, you know,people who just weren't up to
being effective soldiers.
Yes.
Rather than recognizing as humanbeings.
And just as it's been reallyhard to support people who
experience either traumadirectly or vicariously.
(06:59):
Via witnessing otherstraumatization.
It's been hard to advocate forthat because it wasn't taken
seriously.
And so I wanted to say, I reckonit's also happening with actors
as well, and we need to do moreresearch into that area.
And that, fortunately, has beendone now and there's now a whole
emerging conversation andpractical tools to help actors
(07:22):
prepare for traumatic roles andthen debrief from those roles
and destress from those roles aswell.
So yeah, the whole notion ofvicarious trauma, taking on a
role, letting go of a role, thisis what I'm fascinated by.
Dr Nat Green (07:42):
What a fascinating path to navigate.
Really.
I hadn't even thought of that.
That when you take on the rolethat.
Your nervous system doesn't knowthe difference.
Doesn't know whether you areexperiencing it or pretending to
experience it, and all of thattrauma and those experiences
(08:02):
would absolutely be stuck inyour nervous system.
Dr Mark Seton (08:04):
And indeed our act of wellbeing study of 2013
found that at least 40% ofactors who we surveyed and we
had 768 participate in thestudy.
So 40% of them activelyacknowledged that they had
troubles with debriefing fromtraumatizing roles.
You know, while the other twothirds it's not an issue, maybe
(08:25):
they've never had to do atraumatic role.
But for those, yes.
40% it, and that was acrossstage and screen production.
Sometimes people say, ohunderstandably, in the stage
production, you are living therole for six weeks or maybe
years if you're doing a musicaltheater.
Such roles as playingtraumatized characters in like
(08:46):
Miss Saigon or the many operawomen who die at the end of
operas.
These, you know, it surprisedpeople when we put out the
results that actually musicaltheater has a lot of trauma.
And you wouldn't associatemusical theater with trauma.
But it's just one of the areasin which actors have difficulty
(09:08):
in letting go and debriefingfrom their roles that they play.
Dr Nat Green (09:13):
And I guess that comes with someone who's really
good at their job.
Dr Mark Seton (09:18):
Yes.
That if
Dr Nat Green (09:19):
a good actor will take on that whole persona, the
personality, everything, fullyembrace that role.
So it does it's part of then whothey are and who they become.
So it's so important that theylearn a process or a way to
separate themselves from thatrole and debrief at the end.
Dr Mark Seton (09:39):
And indeed, what I've found is that actually we
need to review the way in whichpeople believe they need to
create character even before.
The character they create mighthave trauma.
How they create the characterwill determine how effectively
they can let go of thecharacter.
And I think that's importantbecause then when we look at
other professionals, how theyhave trained to be an empathetic
(10:06):
partner in, in support ifthey've been trained in
particular ways that don't allowthem to let go, that's an issue
as well.
So it's not just about thedebriefing, it's about the
preparation as well.
At least that's been my livedexperience.
Dr Nat Green (10:21):
Yes.
Dr Mark Seton (10:22):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (10:22):
It's definitely, and then we look as well as not
just someone who's taking on arole or being trained, like I
mentioned that you worked withlawyers, with actors, but
helping professionals.
So I know as a psychologist in apast life, my background was
very much, that was my role andit was very much my identity.
Dr Mark Seton (10:43):
Because
Dr Nat Green (10:44):
I took it so seriously and I feel that I was
born to make a difference andhelp people.
And it very much became my roleand my identity, but there
really was not, you know, andI'm talking 35 years ago when I
was trained in that role, thatthere wasn't an acknowledgement
(11:07):
of the vicarious trauma and theimpact it would have.
Those realizations came later.
And what we often see is thatpeople get into certain
professions because they'redrawn to it, because of that
empathy and those charactertraits that they wanna do
something to help people andmake a difference.
Dr Mark Seton (11:30):
Yes.
Yeah.
Often our own woundedness fromour.
Past
Dr Nat Green (11:35):
Absolutely.
Dr Mark Seton (11:35):
Becomes a thing we both understand profoundly
but can also get still caught upin.
And so it's that and as you say,I think identity is a really
crucial factor if we aredependent on our role, our
identity, rather being thisrescuer helper or a rather than
(11:56):
our identity being just me as aperson prior to any agenda.
Yes.
Then we get that role confusion,empathy, confusion and that
undid me for a significantamount of time before I came to
some new insights around thatshift.
Dr Nat Green (12:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I know we spoke the otherday when we were preparing for
this, so would you be okay if wetalk a little bit now about,
yeah.
I'd love you to share a bit ofan overview of your trauma and
what has happened for you,because honestly, I think this
story is so important, both whathappened and the lessons you
(12:36):
learned and.
How you've worked on movingforward?
Dr Mark Seton (12:40):
Yeah.
It's it was a relationship thatI chose to become a part of that
took me and my partner into aworld of uncertainty and trauma
and violence and many years ofpain and isolation.
(13:00):
So it's not like I was in aparticular event as rather a
relationship.
So that's probably good to a wayto set it up.
I met a girl, I fell in lovewith her and possibly part of
that helper that being in tunewith the pain of another Yes.
Possibly it was even happeningthen that I sense something in
(13:21):
her was troubled in need of careand empathy.
Whatever.
I identified I was going to bethe person the hero, the savior
who who understood her, couldcare for her, could be with her.
And that's how our relationshipstarted.
(13:41):
And gradually yeah, we became acouple there was an early
warning sign that I was actuallyout of my depth in the dynamics
of the relationship when I wasand I can't remember all the
details, whatever reason I waschoosing, just to have a bit of
a break from the relationship.
It was a fairly intenserelationship.
And she was having trouble andshe phoned me and we spoke and
(14:06):
she wanted me to come over andcomfort her.
And I said, no, I really can'tdo that.
And then she threatened suicide.
So I went and spent the timewith her.
So
Dr Nat Green (14:17):
of course that of course you did, because of
course I did.
That's who you are and what youwould do.
Yeah.
And for someone you care aboutnot knowing
Dr Mark Seton (14:25):
other strategies around, yeah.
Suicide ideation and so on.
That, and that just pulled mein.
So that very threat of suicide,which got repeated at other
points.
In the relationship was one ofthe reasons why I could not
escape this relationship that Icould see was not healthy, was
(14:47):
not mutually co productive.
And this is where I, you know,only in hindsight discovered
this cycle of distress thatcould lead to violence.
Was that whenever, we had adisagreement about how we were
perceiving the way things werein our attempt to form a
relationship and a lifestyleahead for the two of us as two
(15:10):
young people with differentkinds of career aspirations.
We'd have those times and thenwhen there'd be conflict,
increasingly I needed to see theworld her way, and that if I had
particular feelings, no, myfeelings were inaccurate, they
were wrong.
It's her feelings that mattered.
And so now, and if I dared tochallenge that, then things
(15:35):
would escalate to initiallyverbal violence and then later
on within the couple of years,physical violence.
Dr Nat Green (15:44):
Okay.
Dr Mark Seton (15:44):
And then after those moments of violence, then
there'd be the kind of remorse.
On her part, my part inreacting, and we come back to
this, what's sometimes calledthe honeymoon phase, where Yeah.
All is well between us.
And we can just get on with lifeand peculiarly.
We are the only ones whounderstand each other, which
(16:06):
isolates us Yes.
From family and friends.
Who increasingly can't be withus, connect with us in the same
kind, in a healthier,interdependent way, rather than
this codependency that we havenow established for each other.
Yes.
Very much.
Oh my goodness.
What a place to be in.
(16:28):
After then we got married.
We were very fortunate that Ihad.
Relatively stable income for atime.
And indeed one of my jobs wascaretaking university
accommodation.
So that while it didn't pay me,it provided accommodation I
worked, was endeavoring to workin the creative arts.
(16:49):
Creative arts, and not the bestcareer if you wanna have a
stable income.
No.
And my wife had come from abackground that was far more
stable.
I won't identify what kind ofthat was, but there was clash
and conflict that was not gonnaget easily resolved.
And then gradually I waspersuaded that, you know, maybe
(17:10):
the arts wasn't where I wasgonna have a.
Secure life, a stable life forus, and that maybe should look
an alternative career, which Istarted to pursue.
But her health circumstances,the dynamics of the
relationship, made that harderand harder until eventually we
lost that accommodation.
And so in the last six to 12months, we were effectively
(17:33):
without a real home like wewere.
Bed surf.
What's it?
Dr Nat Green (17:37):
Couch surfing.
Dr Mark Seton (17:38):
Couch surfing.
Bed surfing.
Felt like it couch surfing.
Dr Nat Green (17:42):
A lot of destabilisation
Dr Mark Seton (17:44):
Yeah.
And the violence.
And I was now running away fromhome because we'd been advised
by a GP that maybe one day Imight hit out in defense, she
would be hurt, police would becalled.
It was an age 30 years ago whereit was usually the man who was
the perpetrator of domesticviolence in my case.
(18:07):
It was the other way around.
And there were no resources thatI was aware of for men running
away from domestic violence.
So I was using chairs at CentralStation hotel lobbies libraries
to catch up on sleep.
And but I would always go back.
Dr Nat Green (18:27):
Can I just ask then, as you know, as you said
30 years ago, this, it was notspoken about.
Even domestic violence from amale to a female wasn't really
spoken about, but for thatreverse, for that female towards
a male was very rarely eventhought that things would happen
(18:51):
like that.
So did you talk to anyone aboutit, or you just kept it to
yourself?
Dr Mark Seton (18:57):
So we were seeing psychologists or so
psychiatrists at one point.
So we were trying to getcounseling along the way and gp.
So they were acknowledging theproblem.
They were pointing to why mypartner needed to stop reacting
in the way that she wasreacting.
(19:18):
But none of those things madefor any long-term change.
And we had friends who over theyears we acquired and at one
point those friends provided asafe place for me to be, for a
night or so.
But she was coming out to thefront of the house and yelling
(19:42):
for me to come out, and theywere bringing the police to take
her away.
And so all of that.
It was just a mess.
Yeah, it sounds, and so there,as you say, there, there were no
resources.
And there, while there was thelistening ear of various
counselors, close friendsprobably the, one of the
(20:03):
contributors to my finallybreaking free this was seeing a
counselor, a fresh counseloraround actually vocational
changes that I was okayendeavoring to make.
And that person said, this isn'treally what your problem is
about the vocational changes.
And somehow I think that gave mepermission to share with this
(20:23):
person things that maybe Ihadn't had to share with others.
They gave me a bit of a newperspective that effectively my
relationship had died.
So that was a very confrontingthing to for me particularly as
a person of faith as well.
So I have a Christian faith asdid my partner so for us to
consider failure separation,these were things very foreign
(20:48):
to the kind of church world thatwe had grown up with.
So those were huge value thingsthat I was now facing when I
made the decision to separate.
Dr Nat Green (21:02):
Yeah.
So let's go to that point then.
So back then, yeah.
You finally were able to share alittle bit more with someone
independent who wasn't workingwith the two of you who could
give you that new perspectiveand you hadn't seen it.
Through those eyes.
What happened then when yourecognized that and were able to
(21:22):
make that decision to dosomething different?
Dr Mark Seton (21:26):
I think there were two factors that
contributed to being able tomake that next move.
So one was a time, just a coupleof months prior to breaking away
was having a kind of a quietmoment down in a park for
myself.
And just feeling the immensely,the burden of this
(21:49):
responsibility and not knowingwhat to do and and really
feeling a sense of God or higherpower.
However, people want tounderstand that.
But saying that actually I wascreated to be me and not to try
and be someone else that was.
Very profound.
So in terms of identity, yes,you can see why identity is
(22:12):
crucial.
So that was a really, that was akey unlocked that I should enjoy
and celebrate being me and nottry and fit in, pretend to be
someone that I wasn't.
Yeah.
And that was causing me too muchdistress.
And then the other thing thathappened around the same time
(22:32):
was I something that I had lovedmany years ago, which was
singing and choral work music,there was a new opportunity to
learn how to teach acapellasinging gospel.
Or African American gospelsinging.
And I had confidence many yearsago to run a choir.
And so the opportunity to run anew choir, having been trained,
(22:55):
fed my soul in the way that Ihadn't experienced for the
preceding seven or eight years.
And I believe that.
Doing something that I enjoyedthat reminded me of my own
self-worth combined with owningmy own identity and the inside
of my relationship has diedeffectively.
(23:16):
And I could start to grievethat.
Yes, those three factors gave methe power, I believe on a
Wednesday morning when mypartner and I were just heading
away from one meeting and shesaid, we need to now go and see
the doctor and get a fresh newstarted.
And I thought, here we go again.
(23:38):
This is the cycle.
Yeah.
She went through the gates of arailway station.
I said, I'm not coming with you.
And I ran.
Dr Nat Green (23:47):
Oh wow.
For my
Dr Mark Seton (23:48):
life.
And how
Dr Nat Green (23:49):
brave really that,
Dr Mark Seton (23:51):
that was.
Yeah I was hypervigilant.
You know, part of trauma ishypervigilance.
Absolutely.
By this time I was veryhypervigilant and and this was
the day I actually went andfound the counselor with whom
I'd had these initial insightsand just kind of said, this is
where I'm at now.
And I felt okay about thatbreak.
And then I contacted my parentsfor the first time to actually
(24:15):
tell them the truth, to tellthem why I had been this
estranged son, and that theynever really knew why I'd
changed in my behavior, in myvalues the way I had.
And I went to stay with them.
And that was the beginning of mynew life.
That was, you can imagine therewere post effect complexities,
(24:36):
but that was the turning point.
Dr Nat Green (24:38):
Wow.
And really the courage, I wantto acknowledge the courage that
took.
Yep.
And that ability now torecognize Yep.
Your identity.
Dr Mark Seton (24:50):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (24:51):
You reconnected with your values.
Yes.
What deep down was important,and it sounds like you did that
through that creative part ofyou that hadn't been allowed to
exist in the way that younaturally.
Definitely had all your lifeprior to the relationship.
Dr Mark Seton (25:10):
Yes.
So all those things fed that.
And then as I reflected on howdid I ever get to the violence
space and then there was a lotof, you know, need to deal with
my tendency towards codependencybeing the hero, being the
rescuer.
That was a pattern that I nowneeded to consciously address in
(25:31):
ways I'd never done before.
So that was a ongoing part ofhealing and counseling support
and so on.
But it was a, I recognize nowthe need to have interdependency
Yeah.
Rather than codependency.
So there's a lot of new learningI needed to take as I free
(25:51):
myself from this relationship.
Dr Nat Green (25:54):
Yeah.
So when you talk about you madethe decision you ran for your
life, how long.
Was that period between thathappening and when you felt that
you were safe in inverted commaswhen you felt a bit safer to
move on and be you Yep.
(26:14):
And live the life you wanted.
What sort of timeframe was that?
Dr Mark Seton (26:17):
Oh, it was a few years.
It was a few years and I thinkvarious choices I made that were
about exercising myindependence.
Because I was now needing tofind I didn't have a job'cause I
hadn't had a job.
I'd been actually planning totrain for ministry, ordained
(26:38):
ministry.
Okay.
Prior to this that was not gonnawork as a divorced person really
in that sort of scenario.
So it was starting afresh and Ihad.
When I was thinking of makingall these vocational changes
with my partner at the time Ihad put in a application for a
combined arts law degree atUniversity of New South Wales,
(27:00):
for which I was accepted.
So I actually had a sense of anew path.
Reconnecting with my artsfoundation.
So that was.
Feeding me as well.
Yeah, I did various short-termcourses that also reaffirmed my
creative connectedness.
And so yes, I think it wasaround those things.
It was then developing newfriendships and indeed a new
(27:24):
relationship.
But now recognizing what Iwasn't gonna go back to, this is
a meeting of equals rather thanme being a rescuer.
So learning about that and notfalling into, and my new partner
helping me not fall back into acodependent where I was just
doing things that would pleaseher and not, you know, what did
(27:46):
I want?
So I would now be clear aboutwhat my needs were.
I'm learning a new way of beingin relationship, and that was
important because for me, beingresilient.
In my vulnerability as I like tophrase it, has been a big
learning over those few yearsand has continued.
(28:08):
How can I be have relationshipsagain, friendships and intimate
relationships again withoutlosing my sense of self without
feeling I have to disconnect inorder to be safe.
I can now be safe, but I canalso be open.
And that's really importantbecause I believe, you know,
(28:30):
it's through our openness thatwe connect with others.
And so we aren't these shut offthings.
And while it's appropriate, wehave boundaries, I see them as
now permeable, malleableboundaries that I can determine
in relation to others.
And so all of that reflectionand lived experience happen over
the few years.
(28:52):
Immediately after therelationship broke off, I went
and did a new degree.
I'd never done a degree before,actually.
So this is my, I was a matureage student, but this time I
absolutely knew where I wantedto go with that degree.
So that was in the theater andphilosophy with my two majors.
Dr Nat Green (29:08):
So that lived experience really fueled your
new direction.
Definitely.
And I love, and you've said it acouple of times, you've used the
word vulnerability and I lovethat so much because, and this
is something I see particularlyin the area with helping
professionals.
We are very reluctant.
(29:30):
It's almost like we have thisperception that we need to be
seen as strong.
Yes.
Together.
We can't be seen as having anyissues or being human really.
That we're.
Put ourselves on this pedestaland others often put us on that
Yes.
Pedestal.
Yes.
And it's so unrealistic.
(29:52):
Yes.
We are human.
We will make mistakes, we willlive through things and
hopefully learn as we do that.
So tell me a bit more about thatvulnerability.
Dr Mark Seton (30:05):
So I'm a scholar, I'm a researcher, so I'm gonna
own that part of me as well.
Please do.
I love the work of MargritShildrick and she wrote about
vulnerability and she talkedabout it's an innate part of
being human.
So I feel like for those whowant to not be vulnerable or
think that it's a bad thing, weneed to get over that.
(30:27):
'cause I feel scholars likeMargrit Shildrick have
reaffirmed the innate.
Essence of being vulnerable.
We are vulnerable as humanbeings.
But then I have a philosopherRosalyn Diprose, who very nicely
define vulnerability as thecapacity to affect and be
affected by the other.
(30:47):
So the capacity to affect and beaffected by the other.
And you'll notice there's novalue judgment there.
It's not like that's a badeffect.
It could be a bad effect or itcould be a good effect.
Like it's an, but it is just aneffect and it's effect of my
ability to affect you and othersand you or others to affect me,
(31:09):
that creates this circuit ofvulnerability.
And for actors, theirwillingness to affect and be
affected by a text is what'srequired in order to be
vulnerable and open to play thattext out.
That vulnerability and as yousay, the perception that we have
(31:31):
to, that somehow professionalequals not being vulnerable or
not being human.
I see as a historical trap thatwe as a western culture have
fallen into where we put humanbeings who happen to be trained
in certain disciplines.
We put them on a pedestalperhaps, to honor them, you
(31:53):
know, the years of work they'vedone, the pay that they might
attract.
Dr Nat Green (31:59):
Yeah.
Dr Mark Seton (32:00):
And then we set them up for failure because
they're now no longer feelingthey can be a human being.
They now have to be thisprofessional who can make no
mistakes.
Who is almost above the law.
Yeah.
And then includes lawyers and.
And they carry that burden offeeling.
(32:22):
They must do it.
So that sets them up forfailure?
Yes, definitely.
Because they carry the burdenand they will self-medicate to
manage that.
Burden through drugs, throughalcohol, through whatever.
And we feed that by elevatingthem.
And so here we have a reallyunhealthy circle of codependency
(32:42):
or Yes.
Addictive kind of qualities.
Rather than say bringing themback down and saying they're
partners with us, our partnerswith us in healing.
So it would be great for mydoctor to be a human being who
can partner with me in findingout what I need to do in terms
of my health and wellbeing.
(33:03):
They don't need to reallyposition themself as the person
who all has all the answers.
I.
Because that's actually not ahuman being.
That's no.
And the way that I attempt to,when I'm doing coaching and I
can hear my client starting toelevate me, I will act actively
(33:24):
say, no, I'm just a human beinglike you.
I just happen to have someinsights that maybe will be
helpful to you and I'm delightedwhen they help you.
And I'll make mistakes and I'llmisjudge what I'm hearing you
say and I'll need to apologizeand we'll need to repair a
relationship that's come alittle wonky as soon time.
(33:46):
But I find it so much of arelief to remind myself and to
remind others that we're allhuman beings working hard to
make meaning together.
That's another.
Key principle of working at tomake meaning together.
That's comes from complexitytheory of Ralph Stacy.
So I've been living outinterweaving these values of we
(34:11):
are innately vulnerable.
We, vulnerability is simply thecapacity to affect and be
affected by the other, which Ithink we all need.
Agreed.
And in fact, we're, we are allpartners in.
The fact that I think Covid veryaptly demonstrated how
vulnerable we are because we allbreathe air, and so that was a
(34:31):
reminder that yes, we arevulnerable and to minimize
vulnerability or to, I don'tknow, you know, that doesn't
actually add up.
But we can practice self-care.
Perial boundaries.
In fact, at the moment I'mresearching what we as human
bodies do at the cellular levelourselves are remarkably
(34:53):
intelligent to know what to letin and what to let out.
Dr Nat Green (34:57):
And I think with that also adds weight to when
you said the actors take on arole and the body gets confused.
All that is at a cellular leveltoo.
Absolutely.
That nervous system and cellularlevel that it's so easy to see
how we can get confused.
(35:17):
Yep.
And how we can actually playsuch a huge part in challenging
that.
Dr Mark Seton (35:24):
Yeah.
And indeed.
So I've now developed somepractical activities to help
actors how to better prepare andthen debrief after taking on a
traumatic role, which we may getto talk about.
Yes,
Dr Nat Green (35:38):
yes, definitely.
And I think as you were justsaying then, I know you've got
some really amazing littletricks that you're gonna share
with us soon.
Yep.
So let's just look then, how doyou think what you've been
through and that experience hastransformed your perspective on
(36:01):
life, on relationships orpersonal values?
Dr Mark Seton (36:04):
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
It's a what a rich question.
I think it's transformed my lifein terms of understanding
relationships in a more healthyway, which, and others have
found, you know, I'm not thefirst to discover it.
So understanding the differencebetween codependency and, in a
(36:25):
sense, autonomy andinterdependency.
I have really come to appreciateand value our interdependency as
human beings in the world.
And the western notion ofautonomy that you can just look
after yourself has beenchallenged by some great
feminist writers who talk aboutrelational resilience.
(36:48):
So I'm very excited by the workthey've done and have embraced
their discussion about that weactually can't even claim
resilience just on our own.
We need others to support us,nurture us keep us accountable
and so on.
So I think that's been profoundimpact on my life.
(37:08):
I think also the work of apractice, and this actually
feeds into what I'll be sharinginterplay now.
Interplay is a practice that wasdeveloped by two Americans about
now.
Probably about 40 years ago.
And I started training in thatpractice about 25 years ago.
And it's a practice of twodancer come theologian type
(37:33):
people who didn't quite feel athome in the church world.
'cause they didn't like dance,didn't feel quite at home at the
times in the dance world'causethey didn't feel comfortable
with religion.
And they've crossed those worldsand they've brought movement and
voice and song and storytellingand being playful and using
(37:56):
these tools to help peopleconnect with themselves and
connect with each other.
And so the tools that theydeveloped and brought out to
Australia, as I say about 25.
So years ago, I discovered themat the beginning of my PhD,
which is looking at thevulnerability of actors.
(38:16):
And that was a remarkableliberation for me to really feel
now embodied and connected in aeven more profound way in terms
of vulnerability.
One of the key things that myteacher in interplay, who's one
of the co-founders, because Iwas a scholar, love words, love
critical thinking, but shereally liberated me when she
(38:39):
said, after observing mydeveloping skills, and then she
said I know you love workingwith words, but could you dance
with your words?
Ooh.
And it was like, oh, yes, Icould do that.
So that, that opened up thefloodgates.
And she knows this.
I've thanked her many times forthat note saying, could you
(39:01):
dance with your words?
As that's provided a much morepermeability, flexibility and
honoring the primacy of play inmy life, which I now pass on to
others as well.
So in a way, interdependencyembodiment and play are core
(39:21):
virtues, values that I seek tolive out in my life and my
relationships now.
Dr Nat Green (39:28):
Oh, I love that because how often, oh, you must
see it as well, but I see it allthe time that when I've been
working with people who've beenthrough trauma come out the
other side, one thing that hasbecome so disconnected is their
capacity to have fun and toplay.
We've lost.
(39:49):
It's almost like we've had to beso serious.
Yes.
Because of what we've gonethrough, that sense of
responsibility and that notreally wanting to be vulnerable.
So we cut out that play and thatfun.
So now sounds like the perfectopportunity for us to have a
(40:11):
little play.
Oh yeah.
And I'm going to put myself veryvulnerably on the line, and I'd
love to have you share what Icould do, what could be a
strategy for me and for all thelisteners who have been through
trauma or experiencing thevicarious trauma and are
(40:32):
starting to think, oh, maybe Icould learn something about
this.
How can you help me?
What can you teach me to do?
Be
Dr Mark Seton (40:40):
delighted, Natalie.
And just picking up from thatjoy aspect of play, Dr.
Brene Brown, who I suspect manyof your listeners wouldn't be
familiar with who my favorite
Dr Nat Green (40:50):
vulnerability researcher.
And I was biting my tongue, notto say her, before
Dr Mark Seton (40:55):
I'll name her as well in the room.
I but I was working on my stuffwith vulnerability before she
became public, so it's I'm justglad that she's there too.
And it's become a face of that.
But she talks about how theimportance of leaning into joy.
Yes.
And so I see that playfulness isabout part of that.
Yes.
What I'm gonna take us throughand for your listeners just with
(41:16):
that kind of caveat up front ifthis feels uncomfortable for
you, just let it go.
And maybe now's not the time to.
To do that, but to again honorlistening to ourselves and what
I'm gonna do is gonna take youthrough what I use with actors
and with lawyers have done thistoo.
If that helps give permission tosome people who are listening to
(41:37):
go a lawyer wouldn't do that.
I can say, actually, I have awhole bunch of lawyers who do
this.
I'm gonna take you through anactivity and then I'll tell you
how you'll use this activity,perhaps at the beginning of a
time where you're gonna do someserious work, and then at the
end of the time, so it's like a.
Top and tail or a warmup and acool down.
(41:58):
So if you'd like to, and peoplelistening at home, you can't see
this, but we're gonna extend ourarm just ahead in front of us
and we're now just gonna do nicesmooth movements with that hand
and arm, wherever we like.
There's no particular way we aregoing to go, but we're just
doing nice smooth movements andnow we're gonna do play with
(42:23):
some jerky movements.
So just letting that jerkiness,that awkwardness of our hand and
arm.
Do that jerkiness.
And if your arm gets tired, youcan swap over.
And now we're gonna do slowmovements with our hand and arm,
slow movements.
Just see how slow you canactually get with these
(42:45):
movements.
Now, fast movements and you canreally play with fast movements
and hand and arm.
Okay.
And now you're gonna stopwherever your arm and hand are,
and you'll notice you've got abit of a shape there with your
hand and arm without thinkingabout it.
Just change to a new shape withthat hand and arm.
(43:08):
And now change again and again.
You are not letting yourselfjudge this, oh, this is not good
enough, or whatever.
You're just making a shape andagain, and another shape, and
now making contact with thathand and arm with part of your
body.
Just feel that connection toyourself and now making contact
(43:30):
with another part of your bodyin connection to yourself.
Okay, so just take a breath inand let out a sigh.
Ah, wow.
So those are the physicalactivities, so we'll just
revisit that.
Now we can do.
Fast.
(43:51):
We can do slow, we can dosmooth, we can do jerky, we can
freeze and hold a shape, and wecan make contact with a part of
our body.
So what I'd now encourage,anyone who's just done those
(44:11):
things is now put on a piece ofinstrumental music, not with
words.
We don't wanna be distracted bywhat the words are saying.
We just want an instrumentalmusic.
Whatever instrumental music youjust feel like connecting with
them, going with, put on thatpiece of music, close your eyes
and play with fast and slow,smooth and jerky holding
(44:36):
stillness.
Whatever you feel you, your bodywants you to do in response or
even counter to the music.
And just do that three or four,five minutes at the end of it.
Keep your eyes closed and justnotice what that felt like.
Particularly notice what youenjoyed, and you might then want
(44:56):
to journal that down if you'reby yourself.
Journal that down what younoticed, and particularly what
you enjoyed.
We are really good at going, oh,I didn't trust myself enough,
or, I got that wrong and I don'tunderstand what you're trying to
do.
Let go of all that.
What did you notice?
What did you enjoy?
Do that at the beginning of awhole lot of tasks.
(45:19):
Then do it at the end.
Now you might use the same pieceof music and just see what you
do with it.
This time, maybe you now feelthe need for a different kind of
music, and that has been afoundational tool.
I've worked with actors becausethey have given permission for
their body.
To do these handouts and theymight do two hands.
(45:41):
They might even do a full bodydance, and they do that as a
warmup and a cool down.
It's like establishing yourground of being as you before
you take on the role, and thenyou return to just you and the
music and your body does thetrick.
The hand dance is one of thecomponents of interplay and as a
(46:05):
registered interplayer, I'mallowed to be able to use those
tools in my practice.
Dr Nat Green (46:10):
And it was funny as I did that, I felt that sense
of almost a rhythm and a flowgoing through me.
And I feel even more groundedjust sitting here now.
And that's
Dr Mark Seton (46:23):
without the music.
Dr Nat Green (46:25):
Yeah.
And I didn't have the music on.
So I have the music when I don'thave people listening to my
music.
'cause it, that's may not bewhat they like to hear.
Dr Mark Seton (46:34):
Exactly.
Yeah.
By giving yourself permission togive what your body is needing
by the selection of the musicyou choose.
So you might choose somethingthat's very melodic and peaceful
or you might choose somethingthat's really agitating and
rocky kind of music.
You know, different people,different needs listening to the
body.
(46:55):
Allowing the body.
And that's why we avoid lyrics.
Because it brings in the lefthand side of the brain, I think.
Where we're using text and wordscreative
Dr Nat Green (47:03):
part.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Dr Mark Seton (47:05):
And we want rather than the analytic.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We wanna get into that away fromthe analytic with words and so
on.
Dr Nat Green (47:11):
Yeah.
Oh, that, that's really helpful.
And I'm sure that our listenerswill have really found that of
great interest and I'd love forthem to send through some
feedback.
Yes.
That would be lovely to see.
To know how that felt, how feltfor them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think any practical toollike that, that can help them to
(47:32):
separate Yep.
From that past stuff or the oldstuff, or what else might be
going on now and just getgrounded in the here and now and
have some joy in play.
Dr Mark Seton (47:43):
And it's really connected, like to your joy.
Yes.
What brings you joy, which Ithink so and so here we are
feeding our innate self ratherthan prior to any identity we
have in any role.
Dr Nat Green (47:56):
Or
Dr Mark Seton (47:56):
whatever.
And
Dr Nat Green (47:57):
no expectations and no judgment.
It's just, yeah.
Going with what we need and whatour.
Body and soul need.
Yeah.
Rather than what we think itneeds.
Yes.
'cause that cognitive level ofconscious stuff just continues
to shut off the unconsciouslevel of what we know we need
(48:17):
when we really, truly listen toour own bodies.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love that.
So tell me, do you think there'sany specific qualities or
personal attributes that you'venoticed through your own lived
experience, but also in the workthat you're doing with all these
(48:38):
people helping professionals,actors, lawyers, in the work
that you are doing?
Anything you'd see as key formoving from trauma and into
post-traumatic growth?
Dr Mark Seton (48:51):
Yeah.
Yes.
I think a key thing is, one,yeah, one key thing is
recognizing trauma is going tohappen.
So sorry about that.
Yep.
Any, anyone who's promising,here's the solution to trauma
free, whatever.
No, I'm sorry.
(49:11):
We live in a world that isvulnerable and is subject to not
only to human crises, but justnatural crises that can then
impact and traumatize us aswell.
So I think so that's when I'vebeen writing around the work on,
I say, when you experience this,yes, these are the things you
need to consider.
(49:32):
However given that's a given, ifwe are.
Preparing our mind, heart, andsoul and body to be flexible and
playful and compassionate aroundthese things, I think sets us up
rather than the kind of worldwhere we are still believing
(49:54):
that our professionals have tobe heroes and then end up
becoming martyrs.
Yes.
That, that's setting us up forfailure.
And for prolonged.
Trauma impacts because if ouridentity is caught up in being
the hero, being the martyr, wethen we're working at cross
(50:16):
purposes where we are trying tobe this super hero, not, we're
not feeling we can say no, we'renot saying we do need
boundaries.
We do need rest.
We need recovery time fromtrauma.
We need time for healing, weneed time for renewal.
(50:37):
We need to both acclimatize, Iuse the metaphor of climbing for
peak performance.
Yes.
And I think this applies notonly to actors, but I think any
professional who wants to strivefor peak performance.
That peak performance is apretty rarefied existence where
everything is working at peakcondition.
(50:57):
You know, you're working in thetop of your game.
You can't sustain that for verylong.
And you can't live up there andthere's at times a bit of a buzz
in living up there, which can bevery attractive, maybe even
addictive I might propose.
Yes.
And that's where actors wannalive up in the heights of
(51:18):
performance.
And when they have to confrontthe post-production blues, which
you actually do call this inacting post performance blues,
rather than own the discomfortand the pain and process that
through hand dances and variousthings they try to lift
themselves back up into the buzzof the heights with
(51:39):
self-medicating or try andmanage the depression with
self-medicating.
Yeah.
And this is where we end up withactors.
Who are having issues withalcohol and other strategies.
So we need to learn toacclimatize and then de
acclimatize again.
I see body wisdom teaches usthis.
(52:01):
The body can adapt to more rareidea when we are in our peak
performance, but we really can'tlive up there.
And most of our significantrelationships are actually down
here in the everyday of life.
Actors need to know, after theirrole, they're gonna have to put
out the washing or relate totheir partner and their kids as
themselves or, and their otherroles as parent and so on.
(52:24):
So we need skills to acclimatizeand de acclimatize that will, I
believe then enable us to managethe inevitable traumas that
appear with the body's wisdom,skills.
And remember the relationalresilience skills Exactly.
Or feed into this.
(52:44):
So this in fact becomes anecosystem.
That's how I frame it as a youknow, embodied vulnerability
ecosystem that honors ourvulnerability, our embodiedness,
our interconnectedness, and ourinterdependency.
And knows that we weren't meantto be these heroes come martyrs,
(53:05):
but to be good professionalhuman beings.
I say to actors, you're not anactor.
You're a human being who acts
Dr Nat Green (53:15):
Exactly.
So you're not a
Dr Mark Seton (53:17):
doctor, you're a person who provides skills in
healing and in fact, the gooddoctors probably are the ones
who say, actually, I don't do, Ijust set up the healing
environment for the body.
The body is the thing thatactually does the healing.
And that's with great respect tomy doctor.
So of course I saw a physio andhe knew his craft, and he could
(53:42):
help me understand how I couldpartner with him in the healing
of my knee.
And so that was a greatpartnership, respecting his
expertise.
But I never put him on apedestal, and he treated me as a
partner, you know, given me theexercises to do so together, we
achieved a good outcome.
So I think it can be modeledthat way
Dr Nat Green (54:03):
definitely.
So that mutually respected,embodied wisdom.
So we embody the wisdom of theperson in that position, but
it's a mutual arrangement, sothey also respect us and embody
that with us.
Yeah.
So that we're working togetherfor this better outcome because,
(54:24):
as you said.
Given the way the world is thesedays, trauma is inevitable.
And as you said, anyone who'slived through Covid Yep.
Knows that whole communityexperience
Dr Mark Seton (54:38):
Yeah.
Of
Dr Nat Green (54:39):
trauma and how we did or didn't manage that as
well or as badly as we didregardless.
It's that shared experience.
Dr Mark Seton (54:50):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (54:51):
And it's how we navigate that and are vulnerable
and willing to embrace thefeedback.
Dr Mark Seton (54:57):
And this is where the playfulness allows us to
make those incremental stepsback to a new place so that we
are not feeling the moment wehave discomfort, we become
hypervigilant and we run awayagain.
And so many of our young actorswho went through Covid as much
younger I.
People we've found it verychallenging to invite them to
(55:19):
the same kind of level ofappropriate risk Taking that a
few years ago was quitecomfortable for our students.
They were already used to inlife, you know, having a bit of
a fall here, a bit of amiscommunication with the
relationship there, and theylost that skill, that capacity.
(55:40):
So we've had to find ways tohelp ease them back into that.
Dr Nat Green (55:44):
Yeah.
So as we move to wrapping theconversation up, I know that you
are working on some amazingstuff at the moment and you've
got a survey.
So where can our listeners findout more about you and find you
online, but can you also sharethat of how our listeners can
help you?
Dr Mark Seton (56:05):
Sure.
Yeah.
So I think the best point ofcontact for me would be through
my email address.
So that's mcseton@bigpond.comand yes, you're right.
I am currently doing a study onwhat I'm framing as in terms of
this vulnerability.
I'm avoiding using the wordvulnerable and I'm talking about
(56:25):
open-heartedness.
Or open-hearted professionals.
So I'll be, there's a link thatbe provided here as a URL link
and maybe as a QR code as well.
Yeah.
We'll put in the show notes.
Yeah.
Great.
So love anyone who'd like to,who identifies as an
open-hearted professional comevulnerable, professional to
(56:48):
participate in the survey.
And then I will be sending topeople who sign up to do the
survey if they provide theiremail address, a final report on
my findings of what does it taketo be resilient.
As open-hearted professionalsand I hope to have that report
and indeed a webinar out in midto late June.
(57:10):
But the survey I'm closing offeither towards the end of this
week or early next week forpeople who want to participate.
But if people want to find outmore about how I'm providing
supportive services in terms ofidentity, I have created a, your
professional uniqueness tool,which I can pass on to people.
(57:32):
And then a larger programlooking at embodied
vulnerability ecosystem, whichwe've shared some of the things
around that.
So they're the, some of the waysthat people can participate with
me further if they'reinterested.
Dr Nat Green (57:45):
How exciting.
Thank you for sharing that.
And I would highly recommendthat we, as many of our
listeners as possible really.
Participate in that surveybecause there's so many of our
listeners who are exactly whatyou said, open-hearted
professionals.
And I think the world needs usto be vulnerable and open
(58:08):
ourselves to what happens whenwe do that.
Because as you've beautifullyshowed us today, you've gone
from, you know, the absolutebottomless pit and managed to
pull yourself out and are livingan amazing life now.
Dr Mark Seton (58:27):
Yes, indeed.
It's a great life to be out ofthat black hole.
Dr Nat Green (58:30):
Oh, absolutely.
Yeah.
One thing I always like to askmy amazing guests at the end is
what do you think your youngerself would think of what you've
achieved?
Dr Mark Seton (58:42):
I think a sense of surprise and delight.
So surprising that it's not thepath I thought I was going, but
actual delight in that it's amore profoundly personally
valuable, but also actuallymaking a real contribution to
(59:03):
society and to the world ofhuman beings.
So I'm just very excited tocontinue the journey I find
myself in now.
Yes, I think that's how we wouldlook at that for me now.
Dr Nat Green (59:15):
Amazing.
And really, that must be sovalidating to know you've come
so far and that you arecontributing in such an amazing
way in the world.
Thank you so much for sharingyour story with us today and
your wisdom and that amazingexercise.
I look forward to engaging inmore joy.
(59:36):
So thank you, lovely for beingon the show.
Thank you, Mark thanks
Dr Mark Seton (59:39):
Natalie.
Appreciate it.
Dr Nat Green (59:41):
Bye for now
Dr Mark Seton (59:42):
bye.
Dr Nat Green (59:47):
Thank you for joining me in this episode of
Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
(01:00:09):
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
(01:00:29):
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates.
Then I invite you to hitSubscribe and it would mean the
world to us if you could sharethis episode with others who you
feel may benefit too.
You may also find me onInstagram at Growing Tall
(01:00:50):
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons.
And to learn and increase yourability to live the life you
desire and deserve.
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
(01:01:11):
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now.
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