September 29, 2025 • 47 mins
What does it really take to move from trauma, stress, and burnout into a life of vitality, purpose, and post-traumatic growth?
In this powerful episode of Growing Tall Poppies, I sit down with Dr. Deborah Zucker — naturopathic physician, mental health counselor, health coach, and award winning author of The Vitality Map and The Vitality Journal. Deborah shares her groundbreaking 9 Keys to Vital Living, which support deep healing, nervous system repair, and sustainable resilience.
Together, we explore:
✨ Why burnout is often a sign of unresolved trauma in the nervous system
✨ How cultivating resilience goes beyond self-care into nervous system repair
✨ The importance of saying a courageous “YES” — and pruning away draining “NOs”
✨ The role of community, connection, and vulnerability in true post-traumatic growth
✨ How to live like you matter — honoring your gifts without falling into self-sacrifice
Deborah also opens up about her own journey, navigating recurrent chronic fatigue, motherhood later in life, and the lessons she continues to learn about slowing down, honoring her truth, and showing up authentically.
If you’ve ever felt stuck, burnt out, or unsure how to move forward after trauma, this conversation is filled with compassion, wisdom, and practical tools to help you reclaim vitality and wholeness.
🔗 Resources & Links Mentioned in This Episode:
- Deborah’s website: https://vitalmedicine.com
- The Vitality Map book + The Vitality Journal (available Oct 1 on Amazon & bookstores worldwide)
- Connect with Deborah on:-
- Instagram,
- SPECIAL OFFER for Podcast Listeners :- Work with Dr Deborah and get 15% OFF ! PLUS a FREE download here:- vitalmedicine.com/podcast
💬 If this episode resonates with you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who could use hope and healing today.
If this episode resonates with you then I'd love for you to hit SUBSCRIBE so you can keep updated with each new episode as soon as it's released and we'd be most grateful if you would give us a RATING as well. You can also find me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/drnatgreen/ or on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/DrNatalieGreen
Intro and Outro music: Inspired Ambient by Playsound.
Disclaimer: This podcast is intended for educational purposes only. It is not intended to be deemed or treated as psychological treatment or to replace the need for psychological treatment.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr Nat Green (00:01):
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
(01:29):
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my pleasure to welcome anamazing lady who has experienced
her own trauma and adversitythroughout her life.
And she has so kindly agreed tocome and chat with us today
about her personal and herprofessional experience and to
share her wisdom with us.
(01:52):
So let me start by welcomingDebra Zucker.
Debra is a naturopathicphysician, therapist, health
coach, and the award-winningauthor of The Vitality Map and
the soon to be releasedaccompanying the Vitality
Journal.
Her work empowers individuals tonavigate the.
(02:12):
Deep transitions of life withresilience, self-compassion, and
community.
So welcome Deborah.
It's so great to have you here.
Deborah Zucker (02:23):
Thanks Nat I'm really glad to be in
conversation with you today.
Dr Nat Green (02:27):
Yes.
I'm so looking forward to it.
It's been a while in theplanning.
I know, but I'm so excited thatyou're here So.
Can we just start with yougiving us a brief introduction
of who you are and what you doin the world these days?
Deborah Zucker (02:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, you already offered someof the introduction of some of
the credentials.
Um, but you know, I live inBellingham, Washington.
Addition to having my ownbusiness, vital medicine, where
I primarily serve women, who arein times of significant life
transition, grief, yeah.
(03:05):
Rebirthing themselves or.
Needing kind of a, a deeperorientation to how to care for
themselves in ways that actuallyallows them to show up with the
vitality and wellbeing that istheir birthright.
And in addition to that, I havea five-year-old daughter, Amy
and husband Rich.
(03:25):
And, our home is right near theCanadian border here in the
northwest corner of the UnitedStates.
And.
Love spending lots of timeoutside gardening.
Um, yeah.
Mm.
Dr Nat Green (03:38):
And you've just come out of summer over there,
haven't you?
So you're in fall?
Yes, yes.
We're just emerging in spring.
That's my bright orange shirttoday.
To, bring that vitality andenergy.
And I'm really excited to hearsome strategies from you about
how to continue to build that.
So I'm just wondering if youcould share an overview.
(04:01):
'cause we know that the gueststhat I have on here have
experienced trauma or adversityin their life and they.
Really generously share how theynavigated that.
So I'm just wondering if youcould share an overview of
what's happened for you.
Deborah Zucker (04:17):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Well my, my journey that thenturned into my professional
calling to began in my earlytwenties when I spiraled down
into chronic fatigue,depression, a host of other
symptoms, and at the time, itfelt like it came outta nowhere.
I was like, I was moving along,you know, in this new young
(04:38):
adult.
Yeah.
Period, you know, of all thissense of possibility.
And then it was like I ran intoa brick wall and my life kind of
came to a standstill.
And instead I found myselfbarely able to get outta bed and
really disoriented with yeah,what was going on.
(04:58):
And that led to just a, a deepongoing inquiry into, um.
You know, what is health?
And starting with the physicallevel and then diving into more
of the mental, emotional and thespiritual aspects of the
journey.
And kind of discovering, youknow, on my own, I started with
(05:18):
more conventional approaches tohealth, with consultations with
doctors and the diagnoses I wasgiven just didn't feel like they
Yeah, really got to what wasreally going on.
And then I just expanded intomore holistic perspectives and
other kinds of practitioners andthat led me to, explore
(05:40):
naturopathic medicine.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to, to explore thatvocationally and then mental
health counseling and coaching.
And, I found myself along theway.
It was like there were theseparallel journeys where what I
was learning, just in my ownhealing, I was.
In as I was in theseprofessional trainings, and so I
(06:01):
just kept having this questionof like, what's missing?
Like what am I not being trainedin?
What are, what are some of thepieces that I am learning that
are actually kind of core andessential?
To my own vitality and wellbeingthat aren't really being talked
about or aren't really beingemphasized in the ways that I am
(06:22):
discovering they really need tobe.
Mm.
And so that led to the heart ofmy work in Vital Medicine and
eventually through, work withclients and leading groups, I
distilled them down into ninekeys.
And, and those became theframework that I bring forward
in my two books.
(06:43):
The Vitality Map and TheVitality Journal that is, uh,
coming out soon.
Oh,
Dr Nat Green (06:48):
I love that so much.
You just gave so many goldnuggets in there.
I'm trying to try and rememberit all and unpack and I think,
and one thing that I'm very muchan advocate for is I really
believe.
That, yes, we can do all thisresearch, we can do all this
training.
We go to uni, we get all thisinformation.
(07:10):
Yeah.
But lived experience adds thatdeeper layer because then we
have that empathy, but also.
Really get it.
Yes.
So I love that your inquisitivemind, which clearly was there
way before the chronic fatiguestarted, that you just kept
(07:31):
going and kept going until youwere satisfied that you'd
approached it holistically andreally were looking at the
deeper root cause.
Deborah Zucker (07:42):
Yes, yes.
I, I so agree with that.
And, it brings this sense of,you know, we're all just humans
on the journey together andtakes that, you know, it can
sometimes feel there, like it'sthere with health practitioners
of just the hierarchy and, andinstead it's like, Hey, I am
walking the path too.
I'm learning as I go.
(08:03):
I may be a bit further along insome ways.
And also have some expertise tooffer in these other ways.
But when it comes down to it,one human being, you know, with
another
Dr Nat Green (08:15):
Absolutely.
You nailed it.
Because really we are all humansand I, I find that so often and
a lot of my guests, we've beenhaving these conversations
lately that, you know, as aclinical psychologist background
and now I really just.
Say I'm a post-traumatic growthcoach because I like that shared
(08:38):
experience and that movingthrough the journey together
rather than being on this almostpedestal that you're an expert.
And sure, we've got thetraining, but we are not experts
and we walk our talk and we justknow what's worked for us, what
we've seen in our clients, andit really helps bring that magic
(09:00):
together.
Yeah, so I love that you'vehighlighted that.
So do you recall like a turningpoint or significant realization
that helped you shift from thatbarely surviving to thriving
back then?
Mm,
Deborah Zucker (09:19):
yeah.
Well, I would say it's like,there's like different points,
you know, different layers ofit.
So.
Yeah, it's like I had that earlyphase in, in my twenties that I
talked about that kind ofpropelled me into, you know,
this, this life path, thiscalling where I was just called
to share what I was learningwith everyone else and, and so
(09:42):
that was a significant turningpoint.
But I didn't feel like, I stillfelt like I was learning, you
know, how to bring my energyback.
Like I didn't feel like I was, Iwas thriving at that point.
Mm.
But I gotten outta bed and I wasable to function again, so sort
of that phase.
And I went through school and Iactually got about halfway
through the naturopathic medicaltraining and was pretty burned
(10:06):
out and felt like I wasn'tconnected with, why I was there
anymore, just kind of goingthrough the motions for that,
end point of graduating.
And I chose to take a break,which ended up being a two year
break where I didn't actuallyknow if I was going back.
Okay.
And kind of unplugged from a lotof, of just the daily
(10:29):
expectations and, sense ofstripping down identities and,
mm.
And really came into this deeperinquiry, which did lead to the
nine that I mentioned before,because I discovered, oh, if I,
like I went off a lot of theprotocols.
I'd been on and discovered thatwhen I was.
Choosing this?
Yes.
Of aligning my life with some ofthese things that really were
(10:50):
calling me and taking off someof the burdens that I'd been
holding or the expectations thatothers had put on me or I had
put on myself.
Mm-hmm.
I started to really come aliveand to feel more of that sense
of thriving, that sense of whatwas possible.
And that was a really pivotaltime for me.
But then there were other layerslater.
(11:12):
'cause I actually cycled backinto chronic fatigue after I
went back to school.
And then after I graduated, um,and I was in a residency
program.
I hit another point where Icycled back into chronic
fatigue, and that was sort ofanother sort of level of, of
waking up and learning some ofthese lessons in a way that I
hadn't dropped into fully.
(11:34):
And, and that led to the birthof my business.
Vital medicine and reallyhonoring the unique forms of
what I'm called to do.
You know, stepping out of,again, some of the expectations
or forms that I had seen modeledfor me and realizing like, no,
like my work in the world needsto fully align.
You know, that's such a, andthat's actually one of my nine
(11:54):
keys is aligning with your, yes.
Because I, I learn like howsensitive my system is.
My energy is to when I'm engagedwith investing my life energy
mm-hmm.
Where it's not aligned and whereit's like the life energy goes
down the hole in the lifebucket.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, so I found like howsensitive I was to that and, and
(12:18):
that really has ever since.
Given me a courage to reallystep out and keep following my
unique path and offeringprograms and books and other
things that speak to the truththat it feels like I'm here to
bring.
Dr Nat Green (12:34):
Mm, very, very powerful and.
Again, so many layers.
So it's that energy.
And you talked about otherpeople's expectations as well as
our own expectations, becauseoften the people that.
I have come on the show often,high achievers, and we've put
(12:56):
all these expectations onourselves, but we also in the
health profession and alliedhealth profession really have
these others expectations and wetake that on.
And I love that you said youcompletely stopped, rested and
had two years.
(13:18):
Where you actually peeled backthose layers and took that break
that you knew you needed.
But what I also was veryinterested in, and I know
because I've been there manytimes, unfortunately, took a
while to learn the lessons, isthat a lot of those things crept
back in and the chronic fatiguecame back.
Mm-hmm.
So what do you think was one ofthe key things that you were
(13:42):
neglecting at the time thatbrought that back?
Deborah Zucker (13:49):
I mean, when I look at it kind of with the big
picture, this, it isn't a simpleblack and white.
Mm-hmm.
There's lots of con contributingthings.
One is what I was speaking tobefore around, you know, lack of
alignment.
Mm-hmm.
That I was just, I was depletingmyself because I was investing
in kind of a form of being andway of practicing medicine that
(14:10):
really wasn't my form.
Dr Nat Green (14:11):
Mm-hmm.
And,
Deborah Zucker (14:13):
Another aspect of it that was also a
significant part of my healingwas I discovered during that
time of emerging from thatchronic fatigue the second time.
Mm-hmm.
How I hadn't had a directrelationship with my own anger
before.
And Okay.
Yeah, just that wasn't modeledfor me as a kid.
(14:34):
Mm-hmm.
I so quickly, you know, justtranslated the feeling of anger
into sort of a collapse andsadness and tears mm-hmm.
And sort of a disempoweredplace.
Dr Nat Green (14:45):
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (14:46):
And, I.
Joined a somatic therapy groupthat I ended up being in for
about 10 years, and through thatwork and that healing, I found
that connection with anger andthat voice and that sense of
strength of boundary.
Dr Nat Green (15:04):
Yes.
Deborah Zucker (15:04):
And.
So that integrated some pasthealing.
Mm-hmm.
And it also really helped me toyeah.
Sort of own, again, my owntruth, my boundary and, learn to
say no in like a real way.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That was also really significantfor reclaiming my energy and,
and it was like, it was a wholeother level that didn't show up.
(15:26):
That first round of chronicfatigue.
It didn't show up in that sortof sabbatical time.
So it just, for me, you know, Ithink it's important to share
these kinds of stories becauseit's like.
It, it's not a linear path andit's not like we figure things
out once and boom, we have itmade for the rest of our life
because Sure.
We keep evolving, right.
(15:47):
It's like we keep evolving andchanging and our capacity keeps
deepening if we continue toconsciously be in that growth
and healing journey.
Mm-hmm.
And so I kind of feels like Igot to the point where I was
ready to go there and open upsome of these parts and, past
wounding that needed to beopened.
Dr Nat Green (16:04):
Yes.
And as you said, look, we knowthat our bodies keep the score,
that it has everything, all ourexperiences mapped in there and
hidden in there and we only see.
What we are ready to see, whenwe're ready to see it.
So the layers peel off and itshows itself, as you've
(16:25):
beautifully articulated, that'swhat happened.
And when you are ready to do it,you can deepen it and find the
next layer and the next layer.
Yeah.
So thank you so much for sharingthat.
I know you've mentioned the nineKeys to Deep Vitality, and I
would.
Love, if you could share thosemm-hmm.
(16:47):
And why they're so crucial forindividuals at points in their
life.
Deborah Zucker (16:53):
Yes.
I'd be happy to.
There's, there's a lot to eachof them, so I'll just give kind
of a brief Yeah.
Overview of each, just to give alittle taste.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, just to give just a littleintro, in addition to what I
said about where they were bornfrom is also like, I think of
these as vitality fundamentals,like relationships with ourself
(17:16):
and basic life skills, you know,that most of us were never
taught and so.
So listeners may find, you know,there's kind of a simplicity to
them on one level where it'ssort of like, of course, but
then like to actually live,integrate them and live from the
wisdom that they point to, canbe incredibly, incredibly
(17:39):
transformative.
Dr Nat Green (17:40):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (17:40):
So, the first key is honoring your unique
life.
Dr Nat Green (17:46):
And
Deborah Zucker (17:46):
this one is, at the foundation, it's really
about coming into a relationshipwith ourself and our life in
which we don't take it forgranted.
In which we live day to day.
From the place of reallyrecognizing the, miracle of
(18:07):
being alive and in a body andconscious of that, just like
wow.
And that we're each unique,there never has or will ever be
another me and.
And to shift our orientationtowards self care from it
feeling like a burden or thatwhole long list of to-dos that
we get all stressed about orhave those self judgments or
(18:31):
sense of failure around, andinstead sort of get underneath
all of that and actually feelthe honor it is to take care of
this life.
Dr Nat Green (18:41):
Hmm.
Deborah Zucker (18:42):
The reverence of, again, just wow, like I am
alive.
I don't know how long I'm gonnabe here.
You know, we're each mortal.
We could be here another day ormany years.
We just don't know.
And to live and cultivate apractice and awareness of living
more from that place and rootingour relationship to self care
from there.
Dr Nat Green (19:01):
Mm.
So important.
Deborah Zucker (19:04):
Yeah.
So that's the first one.
And the foundation.
The second is facing andembracing your shadows.
Dr Nat Green (19:12):
Mm-hmm.
I love this part.
Yes,
Deborah Zucker (19:15):
yes, yes.
And this is a big missing piece,in the realm of health and
self-care.
Mm-hmm.
Luckily, I'm really happy it'sbeing talked about more in
mental healthcare and coachingwith, internal family systems,
talking about parts work andthings like that.
But this one really acknowledgesthat we all have unconscious
(19:35):
parts of ourselves that arerunning the show.
Dr Nat Green (19:38):
Mm-hmm.
That
Deborah Zucker (19:39):
because unconscious, we're not really
aware of, but we are aware thatwe watch ourselves in avoidance
patterns in taking care ofourselves or even
self-sabotaging patterns.
And it can be very disorientingand confusing to.
Why can't I actually engage inthings that I know make me feel
(20:00):
better, that support mywellbeing that are aligned for
me and we just trip ourselves upand spin ourselves around.
And so that's what this key isabout is, is tending to those
unconscious parts, integratingthem lovingly, and coming home
to ourselves more fully in thatway so that we can actualize the
changes we seek.
Mm.
(20:21):
And feel more at home inourselves.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (20:24):
Yeah.
That sounds to me like a verypowerful one and definitely a
missing piece.
And I know, I love that we'vebeen talking about it on this
podcast recently around thatshadow work.
Yes.
The importance of the shadowwork, that there's always this
other part and we really need toexplore it and honor it, that
(20:44):
it's there for a reason.
Yes.
And start to be game enough toexplore it.
Deborah Zucker (20:51):
Yeah, yeah.
With curiosity and love andempathy for those parts, just,
yeah, to really turn towardsthem is not something that's
wrong with ourselves or thatsomething that needs to be
suppressed, but instead like,Hey, these are parts that are
wounded or, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(21:11):
Have been able to come into thelight.
They've, yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe intergenerationally thingshave been passed down and
Dr Nat Green (21:18):
Yes, often, often that's what we see, isn't it?
Intergenerational trauma and,and we have to almost Yeah.
Be reparented or reparentourselves.
Yes.
And it's no one's fault.
It just is because I'm a firmbeliever that we all do the best
we can with what we have.
Deborah Zucker (21:36):
Yes, yes.
So, key number three, just to,to keep moving on, is,
strengthening yourself-awareness muscles.
Dr Nat Green (21:44):
Hmm.
Deborah Zucker (21:45):
This one, you know, again, I think of as a
basic life skill.
Most of us were never taught,like how to actually become
intimate with the feedbackthat's there for us.
Mm-hmm.
24 7.
You know, that's helping toguide us towards what brings us
alive and what doesn't.
And that.
Is available to us, but most ofus just haven't learned the
(22:06):
language.
Like we haven't learned how toreally be that attuned with
ourselves.
And instead what happens becausewe haven't learned that, is that
we get spun around by all thenew health fads.
We get spun around by the adviceof all the people we know in our
lives and we can defer to, um,the protocols or guidance of,
(22:29):
doctors and health practitionerswithout really.
Being able to filter it throughour own self knowing.
Dr Nat Green (22:35):
Hmm.
And so
Deborah Zucker (22:36):
this key really helps us to find that empowered
place of recognizing that we'reour own best health guide.
Dr Nat Green (22:43):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (22:44):
And from that place we can lean in for support
and take in, all the informationout there, but to start by
cultivating that awareness inourselves.
Dr Nat Green (22:52):
Mm.
Yeah.
So.
Excellent.
Yeah.
So what will, what's the nextkey?
Deborah Zucker (22:59):
Yeah.
So key four is cultivatingresilience.
And this key is kind of tagteaming that one.
So when we expand our awareness,then it's like, well, what do we
do with that?
And cultivating resilience isabout how do we self-regulate,
how do we.
Find our feet again when lifepulls the rug out from
(23:22):
underneath us.
How do we find our way in aworld that is increasingly
stressful and chaotic that haselements of existential.
Realities that we're navigatingand Yeah, and just the fullness
of our lives.
And so just to live in reality,like there's no such thing as a
(23:43):
stress-free life.
Mm-hmm.
There's no such thing as apredictable life.
Like everything just keepschanging.
And so cultivating resilience ishow do we develop the skills and
capacities to find our feetagain, to navigate in the midst
of all that life throws our way.
And, particularly I think thesedays, a big part of it is,
(24:04):
learning how to regulate ournervous system to help to calm,
come back to that calm, rest,relax place as, more of the
baseline and just how vital thatis with, you know, if you look
at the epidemics of anxiety anddepression, burnout, and all
these stress related illnesses,which you know, is a reality in
(24:28):
our world today.
Dr Nat Green (24:29):
Absolutely.
And, how often do we seeburnout?
And, one of the things thatI'll, I'll try not to rant and
get on a pedestal right now, is,is that burnout is often
diagnosed in inverted commas, orpeople are saying, oh, I'm so
burnt out.
But what we find is there'susually this trauma underlying
(24:49):
it.
Deborah Zucker (24:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr Nat Green (24:51):
Something that's been held in our nervous system.
Yeah.
That we need to work out how tosoftly, gently work through.
Yeah.
So we can start to really repairand heal our nervous system,
which then will change ourburnout experience.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes to that.
That's a powerful key.
I really, yeah.
Really like that one.
Deborah Zucker (25:13):
Yeah.
And then key number five is whatI already touched into a bit in
my own story.
It's aligning with your Yes.
Dr Nat Green (25:20):
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (25:20):
And this is also related to burnout.
Yes.
As I'm speaking through before.
Yeah.
And so, you know, in addition towhat I've already said, I'll
just say this one's huge.
I think it's a huge missingpiece for so many of us.
Dr Nat Green (25:33):
Mm-hmm.
You
Deborah Zucker (25:34):
know, to.
Step out of all the externalexpectations and things that
we've been told we're supposedto be or do, and really tune
into what's my truth,
Dr Nat Green (25:47):
what
Deborah Zucker (25:48):
is my clear Yes.
And to have the courage to stepinto that, whether it's, the
little choices throughout theday or a bigger soul's calling,
and then the flip side of that,that's absolutely essential is
getting clear about our NO's.
So, yes.
I use the analogy of pruning ourlife.
So we need to, you know, pruneaway, in the right timing and,
(26:10):
with, support the things that,that really do not belong, where
we're investing our life energy,where we're not getting returns.
Dr Nat Green (26:18):
Yeah.
So those things that reallydrain us.
And it's okay to prune them awaybecause it's about, as you said,
you're looking at vital medicineand that vitality and you can't
coexist with constant drains.
Yeah.
Without it having a big impacton your life and your body.
Deborah Zucker (26:38):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that gets back to honoringyour unique life, the first key.
Dr Nat Green (26:43):
Exactly.
So they're definitely allinterconnected, aren't they?
Which, as we know when you'vedone the healing and you are
living, breathing evidence forthat.
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (26:57):
Yeah.
So key number six.
Is experimenting with playfulcuriosity.
Mm.
And this one, I love this onetoo.
'Cause it just like, it takessort of the burden off, or the
pressure or all the rights andwrongs and sense of failure that
can be there with how we'reguiding ourselves in our life.
We're taking care of ourselves.
(27:18):
And instead, the rule book getsto get thrown, thrown out.
And we can orient in anexperimental way where we try
things out and we learn as wego.
Mm-hmm.
And we can.
Curious and playful and, enjoythe journey as one that's
dynamic because again, we'reconstantly changing and growing.
So it doesn't work to sort oflike create this expectation
(27:41):
that we're gonna stick tosomething for the rest of our
lives, or, it's gonna look justlike this instead, like.
Let's be flexible and adaptableand, try something out for a
couple weeks and learn from it.
And then tweak it if it needsto, maybe happen in a different
way or totally scrap it and trysomething new, like
Dr Nat Green (27:59):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (27:59):
Get to just kind of be in the journey in an
intentional way where we'restaying present to what's
actually emerging and what'shappening for us.
Dr Nat Green (28:08):
Yeah.
I think presence is a reallyimportant thing, isn't it?
Yeah.
To, we're human beings, nothuman doings.
Yes.
So to just be and be present is,one of my greatest learnings of
late, always a work in progress.
But yeah, I like that one.
Yes.
Deborah Zucker (28:27):
And key number seven is discovering easeful
discipline.
So this is about reframing ourwhole orientation to discipline,
that it doesn't have to be harshor mean or judgmental, or we
don't have to will ourselvesinto things we can actually find
an easeful way.
To support ourselves where wehave our own back, where we are
(28:48):
experimenting and enjoying thejourney, but we recognize that
discipline's needed'cause anyhabit change, needs discipline
to help over that uncomfortabletransitional time.
Dr Nat Green (28:59):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (29:00):
So with easeful discipline, we have clear
commitments.
We develop really intelligentstrategies that kinda look at
the realities with clear eyes ofwhat's going on, in our lives.
And we attend to the competingcommitments and obstacles in a
really intentional way.
And then we create structures ofsupport to hold us in the
process.
Both people as well as,different things like our
(29:22):
calendars or reminders ormm-hmm.
Books or other playful thingsthat can just kind of keep us in
the process.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then key eight is invitingsupport and connection.
And so this one, it's numbereight, but it's really, the
embrace of it all.
(29:43):
It acknowledges that we arerelational creatures and we need
each other.
We can't do this alone.
And in fact, like the isolationthat so often happens and in our
healing journeys, is.
Part of, what needs attending.
So I really encourage teams ofsupport, that we really look at
the different kinds of supportto bring on board.
(30:05):
And I'm a big proponent, andthis is a big part of my work,
is bringing people together ingroups to engage in, group
healing and, particularlywomen's circles, both online and
in person, as a way to justreally honor just the ways in
which we're wired.
To, sort of open and, andself-actualize when we are held
(30:28):
and witnessed in that kind ofmutuality.
Dr Nat Green (30:30):
Yeah.
So really creating communities.
Deborah Zucker (30:33):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (30:33):
Yes.
And being part of a community.
Yes.
And giving and taking.
So being able to give and share,but also giving yourself
permission to accept Yes.
Help from others as well.
So important.
Yes.
So vital.
Absolutely.
So key number nine.
Deborah Zucker (30:55):
Yeah, the ninth key is living like you matter,
and this key really kind ofbrings it full circle.
It acknowledges that.
In order to show up in theworld, in order to be of support
in whatever ways that we are,whatever scale that is, in order
(31:16):
to be a presence in the world,we need to start by cultivating
our own wellbeing.
We need to fill our well so thatwe can continue to show up and
this just feels so, so.
Vital.
These days, like we have so muchneed in our world right now,
there's so much that needsattending in their close in
(31:37):
circles and on a global level.
And we need, people who arevital and have the, personal
sustainability to keep showingup and, bring their unique
gifts.
This is, that's the other partof this living like you matter,
is like each of us has our ownpresence and gifts to bring to
the world and to honor that andto let go of the wiring that may
(32:02):
have us sacrificing or being amartyr or yeah, sort of running
ourselves into the ground in ourservice in the world that that
doesn't serve anyone.
Dr Nat Green (32:13):
Oh yes.
I love that you said that.
And I know one of my key turningpoints when I did my own
breakthrough work was reallyaround that self-sacrificing,
that good old martyr ingrainedpattern that, again,
transgenerational and yeah, it'sbeen so important for me to, to
(32:34):
identify that, to get that, asyou said, all the working
through the keys and to havethat level of awareness.
To then do something about it.
But as you've said, it's aboutself-care, but it's also that
responsibility that we have.
Mm-hmm.
Particularly as helping andhealth professionals helping
(32:55):
others, we have to do our ownwork.
Yes.
And that's so many times I knowthe way that I was trained, that
wasn't a focus.
Not at all.
It's changed.
Thank goodness.
I've been doing this for 35years.
It wasn't taught at all backthen.
And thankfully and often becauseof the shadow work that's now
(33:16):
been identified and the levelsof burnout, right in helping and
health professionals aremassive.
Yes.
Because as you said at thebeginning, we're human fancy
that, fancy that we're actuallyjust mere, human beings and we
all need to do the work and wecan't do it alone.
(33:39):
Absolutely.
So, uh, I love your nine keysand I'm really excited and
definitely going to be buying acopy of your book.
And I guess one of the things,you've shared a number of them
and I know they'll beintertwined in there.
What would you say would bespecific qualities or personal
(34:02):
attributes?
That you see as being key formoving through trauma into
post-traumatic growth?
Deborah Zucker (34:10):
Hmm.
I mean, the first thing thatcomes to mind is the courage to
be vulnerable and that comesalong with the discernment
around finding those safe spacesand people to be able to lean
(34:32):
into.
Dr Nat Green (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
To
Deborah Zucker (34:33):
be held in that way.
Yes.
Yeah.
But that to me is such, that'sthe pathway.
It's like being able to bevulnerable, being able to have
the courage to really feel and.
Own, one's true experience andto have it be witnessed and held
in safe, loving places likethat, the transformation that
(34:57):
happens through that relationalspace is huge to then.
Yeah, sort of really, comethrough that birth canal, into
this next iteration of ourselveswhere there's, a level of
integration and wholeness thatcan be there from what we've
(35:18):
lived through.
And, then, translating that intowho we are and how we show up in
the world.
And.
Yeah.
And that, just gets back to whatI was saying before about, we're
all just humans on this journeyand, yeah.
Being at home in our own skinwith whatever that journey has
(35:40):
been.
Mm-hmm.
And.
Yeah.
But with discernment around howwe share that and who we share
that with, so that, there's thatself-love and having our own
back that goes with, thathonoring of being our own, guide
in this life.
Dr Nat Green (35:58):
Yeah, and I think part of that also is it makes
such a difference when you'reable to be vulnerable.
Embrace your vulnerability, butit's also important not to just
share that everywhere from agaping wound, but from, you
know, a healing wound or ahealed wound.
(36:19):
And that having that level ofawareness and really working
through those keys in the waythat you've shared is very
powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Very, very important.
So.
I know that you have got a newjournal you're about to release,
so I'd love for you to tell usabout that and, where we can
(36:42):
find that.
'cause I know that our listenerswill be very, very keen to find
out more about your nine keys.
Deborah Zucker (36:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, thank you.
I, actually have both bookssitting right here, so I'll just
give a little glimpse of each.
So this is The Vitality Map, myoriginal book, and then the
Vitality Journal, which is aboutto come out, is here.
And so, yeah, it's a companionbook, so it goes through the
same buying keys and whereas themap, has.
(37:13):
Goes into depth in all the keysand has stories and personal
sharings and it does have someprompts and practices.
Mm-hmm.
The journal is all about justthe prompts and practices, so it
gives sort of a brief overviewof each of the keys, but goes
right into a personal process.
So it's like a guided journeyand, yeah.
(37:33):
And my hope is that, it'll be aresource for people to,
regardless of whether, whatother kinds of support they have
on board that they can reallyexplore in depth in their own
way and in their own pace.
These nine keys and, it is, it'savailable, for pre-order now,
but October 1st is when it isreleased, and you can find on
(37:55):
Amazon or order it through anybookstore.
Dr Nat Green (37:58):
Oh, that's fabulous.
And I'll put all of that in ourshow notes as well.
So, our, all our listeners canjump on board and, support you,
but also know that this is gonnabe, we've got the map, but also
now, the how to, to do our ownwork, which I think will be
very, very powerful.
(38:18):
I'll be signing up straightaway.
Thank you for that.
Thank you very much.
What, is there anything elseyou'd like to share about maybe
any important lessons you'velearned as a result of your own
journey?
Deborah Zucker (38:36):
Um, yeah, I think, it's coming, coming up in
the moment,'cause I feel like ina lot of ways everything I've
shared today are big lessonsfrom my journey.
Dr Nat Green (38:48):
Absolutely.
Deborah Zucker (38:49):
Yeah.
But I just, I just feel like,like even just this last week,
I've had some just reminders of.
Honoring just the, truth ofwhatever's going on inside, and
slowing down enough to be withit.
Like this last week, I, as anexample, I've had, this, the
leading up to this book launchtime, I'm also promoting some
(39:13):
local programs.
My daughter just went back toschool.
I have a five, 5-year-old.
I think I mentioned that.
Yeah.
So it just, it's been a veryfull transitional time and one
I've, I've learned like, okay, Idon't think September, at least
in where I live, is not a goodtime for me to be promoting book
or programs.
There's just too much going oninside myself and others.
(39:35):
But it was also like, okay, likeI need to do this in a pace and
in a way that feels congruentfor me.
Like let go of the pressures andthe expectations of it needing
to be a certain way or how I didit before and just keep coming
back.
Like the feedback I'm gettingright now is slow down.
Mm-hmm.
Feel the tiredness.
(39:55):
Like get outside on some hikes,like trust.
The process that, yeah, it's allunfolding as it needs to, that
just feels like a lesson that Ineed to learn over and over
again.
But, and it's also, it's justlike that's what I'm bringing
forth in the book that I'mpromoting.
It's like, okay, here we go.
Like that's nudge, nudge,
Dr Nat Green (40:17):
like Exactly.
Sometimes we take a little whileto get our lessons, don't we?
I speak from great.
Experience with that experience,and I guess for you as well, if
your daughter's only five, I'massuming this is her first year
at school, so this is all newfor you.
Yes.
So as you experience things forthe first time, you are looking
(40:38):
openly for the lessons andseeing them.
And I think that's a key becausesometimes it takes, as I said
many times to get the lessons.
Deborah Zucker (40:49):
Yes.
And also, I guess what I wannasay with that too is like our
life circumstances keepchanging, right?
Mm-hmm.
So it's like what worked for mebefore I had, my daughter
doesn't work in the same wayanymore.
So it's just staying open andtuned, like, okay, like this
needs to happen differently now.
Yeah.
Different realities, differentpriorities.
Dr Nat Green (41:09):
Yeah, very much so.
So, yeah.
Deborah, as we move to wrappingthis conversation up, where can
our listeners find out moreabout you and find you online?
Deborah Zucker (41:19):
Well my website is Vital Medicine.
Mm-hmm.
And I actually have a speciallanding page for podcast
listeners vitalmedicine.com/podcast.
And on there are, links to thebooks and links to free
resources.
And I also offer a discount,,for those who wanna engage in
(41:40):
any of my programs.
I do a lot of virtual work aswell, and I even have a virtual,
book launch coming up on October15th.
And in case any listeners wannalisten, or step into that
experience too, fantastic.
So, yeah.
Dr Nat Green (41:55):
That's very generous.
I will definitely put that inthe show notes.
So vital medicine.com/podcast.
Yes.
Yes.
So I'll do that and I'll shareall your links and I know you
are newly.
Hanging out on Instagram more?
Deborah Zucker (42:13):
Yes.
Yeah, I'm sort of, I am, I'mtrying out the different social
media in some new ways, soInstagram's still building for
me, but I have a wonderfulassistant now who's helping me
with that kind of outreach andpresence.
And I'm on Facebook and LinkedInas well.
Dr Nat Green (42:29):
Fantastic.
And you and I might even testout a live conversation on
Instagram so our listeners can,come and.
Chat a bit more and, even ask usquestions while we're hanging
out there.
So that might be good.
Deborah Zucker (42:43):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (42:43):
Excellent.
So stay tuned for that,everyone.
Now Deborah, as I wrap up, Iusually ask my guests a
question, and it's one of myfavorite ones and I'd love to
know what comes up for you.
What do you think your youngerself would think of Where you
(43:05):
are now and all that you'veachieved.
Deborah Zucker (43:07):
Hmm.
I love that question.
I just, yeah, I, well, firstly,I just wanna say, yeah, just as
you asked that, I just felt kindof my, my heart open and, just a
softness, like almost a littletenderness.
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful question.
I think she would be amazed,really amazed.
I, yeah, I've come, I've evolvedso much from my younger self and
(43:33):
you know that early twentiesversion of me,'cause I was
talking about her earlier, likeshe had no idea that this would
be a calling, like I was notoriented towards becoming a
doctor counselor or having likea big public presence or writing
books?
I mean, actually I thought maybeI might write a book, but not in
this.
(43:53):
Mm-hmm.
You know, orientation orcontent.
Yeah.
So I think she would be prettylike jaw, jaw drop a bit mm-hmm.
Of how life has unfolded andyeah.
And just my journey tomotherhood too, I think, I had
my daughter when I was 45 and,yeah.
And just, yeah, just what allthat, how that unfolded of,
meeting my husband.
(44:14):
So I think there's so manyaspects to my life that, yeah.
She would probably, be boththrilled and surprised by,
Dr Nat Green (44:23):
oh, that's beautiful.
I've got goosebumps when youtalked about that.
Yeah, that's,
Deborah Zucker (44:28):
yeah,
Dr Nat Green (44:28):
and I, I love that question because we often don't
celebrate and look back at howfar we've come and really
acknowledge ourselves.
And, I think that beautifullyaligns with your nine keys.
Mm-hmm.
That acknowledging yourself Yes.
(44:49):
That you are human, vulnerable,and that you matter.
And I think that's one of thekey takeaways I've gotten from
talking to you.
So thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You've given us such a gift of,all this knowledge and these
layers of wisdom, and I lovethat you've shared it from the
(45:11):
heart and it really matters.
So thank you so much.
I know our listeners are gonnalove this episode.
So thank you so much.
Deborah Zucker (45:21):
I really, yeah.
I appreciate the space you'veheld.
Dr Nat Green (45:24):
Thank you.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining me in thisepisode of Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
(45:44):
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
(46:06):
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
(46:29):
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
(46:52):
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now.
Welcome to the Growing Tall Poppies Podcast.
I'm your host, Dr.
Nat Green, and I'm so excited tohave you join me as we discuss
what it means to navigate yourway through post-traumatic
growth and not just survive, butto thrive after trauma.
(00:23):
Through our podcast, we willexplore ways for you to create a
life filled with greaterpurpose, self-awareness, and a
deep inner peace.
Through integrating the manyyears of knowledge and
professional experience, as wellas the wisdom of those who have
experienced trauma firsthand.
(00:44):
We'll combine psychologyaccelerated approaches.
Coaching and personal experienceto assist you, to learn, to grow
and to thrive.
I hope to empower you to createdeeper awareness and
understanding and strongerconnections with yourself and
with others, whilst also pavingthe way for those who have
(01:08):
experienced trauma and adversityto reduce their suffering and
become the very best versions ofthemselves.
In order to thrive.
Thank you so much for joining meon today's episode.
I'm super excited and gratefultoday to bring you our next
(01:29):
guest on the Growing TallPoppies podcast.
It's my pleasure to welcome anamazing lady who has experienced
her own trauma and adversitythroughout her life.
And she has so kindly agreed tocome and chat with us today
about her personal and herprofessional experience and to
share her wisdom with us.
(01:52):
So let me start by welcomingDebra Zucker.
Debra is a naturopathicphysician, therapist, health
coach, and the award-winningauthor of The Vitality Map and
the soon to be releasedaccompanying the Vitality
Journal.
Her work empowers individuals tonavigate the.
(02:12):
Deep transitions of life withresilience, self-compassion, and
community.
So welcome Deborah.
It's so great to have you here.
Deborah Zucker (02:23):
Thanks Nat I'm really glad to be in
conversation with you today.
Dr Nat Green (02:27):
Yes.
I'm so looking forward to it.
It's been a while in theplanning.
I know, but I'm so excited thatyou're here So.
Can we just start with yougiving us a brief introduction
of who you are and what you doin the world these days?
Deborah Zucker (02:42):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Well, you already offered someof the introduction of some of
the credentials.
Um, but you know, I live inBellingham, Washington.
Addition to having my ownbusiness, vital medicine, where
I primarily serve women, who arein times of significant life
transition, grief, yeah.
(03:05):
Rebirthing themselves or.
Needing kind of a, a deeperorientation to how to care for
themselves in ways that actuallyallows them to show up with the
vitality and wellbeing that istheir birthright.
And in addition to that, I havea five-year-old daughter, Amy
and husband Rich.
(03:25):
And, our home is right near theCanadian border here in the
northwest corner of the UnitedStates.
And.
Love spending lots of timeoutside gardening.
Um, yeah.
Mm.
Dr Nat Green (03:38):
And you've just come out of summer over there,
haven't you?
So you're in fall?
Yes, yes.
We're just emerging in spring.
That's my bright orange shirttoday.
To, bring that vitality andenergy.
And I'm really excited to hearsome strategies from you about
how to continue to build that.
So I'm just wondering if youcould share an overview.
(04:01):
'cause we know that the gueststhat I have on here have
experienced trauma or adversityin their life and they.
Really generously share how theynavigated that.
So I'm just wondering if youcould share an overview of
what's happened for you.
Deborah Zucker (04:17):
Hmm.
Yeah.
Well my, my journey that thenturned into my professional
calling to began in my earlytwenties when I spiraled down
into chronic fatigue,depression, a host of other
symptoms, and at the time, itfelt like it came outta nowhere.
I was like, I was moving along,you know, in this new young
(04:38):
adult.
Yeah.
Period, you know, of all thissense of possibility.
And then it was like I ran intoa brick wall and my life kind of
came to a standstill.
And instead I found myselfbarely able to get outta bed and
really disoriented with yeah,what was going on.
(04:58):
And that led to just a, a deepongoing inquiry into, um.
You know, what is health?
And starting with the physicallevel and then diving into more
of the mental, emotional and thespiritual aspects of the
journey.
And kind of discovering, youknow, on my own, I started with
(05:18):
more conventional approaches tohealth, with consultations with
doctors and the diagnoses I wasgiven just didn't feel like they
Yeah, really got to what wasreally going on.
And then I just expanded intomore holistic perspectives and
other kinds of practitioners andthat led me to, explore
(05:40):
naturopathic medicine.
Mm-hmm.
You know, to, to explore thatvocationally and then mental
health counseling and coaching.
And, I found myself along theway.
It was like there were theseparallel journeys where what I
was learning, just in my ownhealing, I was.
In as I was in theseprofessional trainings, and so I
(06:01):
just kept having this questionof like, what's missing?
Like what am I not being trainedin?
What are, what are some of thepieces that I am learning that
are actually kind of core andessential?
To my own vitality and wellbeingthat aren't really being talked
about or aren't really beingemphasized in the ways that I am
(06:22):
discovering they really need tobe.
Mm.
And so that led to the heart ofmy work in Vital Medicine and
eventually through, work withclients and leading groups, I
distilled them down into ninekeys.
And, and those became theframework that I bring forward
in my two books.
(06:43):
The Vitality Map and TheVitality Journal that is, uh,
coming out soon.
Oh,
Dr Nat Green (06:48):
I love that so much.
You just gave so many goldnuggets in there.
I'm trying to try and rememberit all and unpack and I think,
and one thing that I'm very muchan advocate for is I really
believe.
That, yes, we can do all thisresearch, we can do all this
training.
We go to uni, we get all thisinformation.
(07:10):
Yeah.
But lived experience adds thatdeeper layer because then we
have that empathy, but also.
Really get it.
Yes.
So I love that your inquisitivemind, which clearly was there
way before the chronic fatiguestarted, that you just kept
(07:31):
going and kept going until youwere satisfied that you'd
approached it holistically andreally were looking at the
deeper root cause.
Deborah Zucker (07:42):
Yes, yes.
I, I so agree with that.
And, it brings this sense of,you know, we're all just humans
on the journey together andtakes that, you know, it can
sometimes feel there, like it'sthere with health practitioners
of just the hierarchy and, andinstead it's like, Hey, I am
walking the path too.
I'm learning as I go.
(08:03):
I may be a bit further along insome ways.
And also have some expertise tooffer in these other ways.
But when it comes down to it,one human being, you know, with
another
Dr Nat Green (08:15):
Absolutely.
You nailed it.
Because really we are all humansand I, I find that so often and
a lot of my guests, we've beenhaving these conversations
lately that, you know, as aclinical psychologist background
and now I really just.
Say I'm a post-traumatic growthcoach because I like that shared
(08:38):
experience and that movingthrough the journey together
rather than being on this almostpedestal that you're an expert.
And sure, we've got thetraining, but we are not experts
and we walk our talk and we justknow what's worked for us, what
we've seen in our clients, andit really helps bring that magic
(09:00):
together.
Yeah, so I love that you'vehighlighted that.
So do you recall like a turningpoint or significant realization
that helped you shift from thatbarely surviving to thriving
back then?
Mm,
Deborah Zucker (09:19):
yeah.
Well, I would say it's like,there's like different points,
you know, different layers ofit.
So.
Yeah, it's like I had that earlyphase in, in my twenties that I
talked about that kind ofpropelled me into, you know,
this, this life path, thiscalling where I was just called
to share what I was learningwith everyone else and, and so
(09:42):
that was a significant turningpoint.
But I didn't feel like, I stillfelt like I was learning, you
know, how to bring my energyback.
Like I didn't feel like I was, Iwas thriving at that point.
Mm.
But I gotten outta bed and I wasable to function again, so sort
of that phase.
And I went through school and Iactually got about halfway
through the naturopathic medicaltraining and was pretty burned
(10:06):
out and felt like I wasn'tconnected with, why I was there
anymore, just kind of goingthrough the motions for that,
end point of graduating.
And I chose to take a break,which ended up being a two year
break where I didn't actuallyknow if I was going back.
Okay.
And kind of unplugged from a lotof, of just the daily
(10:29):
expectations and, sense ofstripping down identities and,
mm.
And really came into this deeperinquiry, which did lead to the
nine that I mentioned before,because I discovered, oh, if I,
like I went off a lot of theprotocols.
I'd been on and discovered thatwhen I was.
Choosing this?
Yes.
Of aligning my life with some ofthese things that really were
(10:50):
calling me and taking off someof the burdens that I'd been
holding or the expectations thatothers had put on me or I had
put on myself.
Mm-hmm.
I started to really come aliveand to feel more of that sense
of thriving, that sense of whatwas possible.
And that was a really pivotaltime for me.
But then there were other layerslater.
(11:12):
'cause I actually cycled backinto chronic fatigue after I
went back to school.
And then after I graduated, um,and I was in a residency
program.
I hit another point where Icycled back into chronic
fatigue, and that was sort ofanother sort of level of, of
waking up and learning some ofthese lessons in a way that I
hadn't dropped into fully.
(11:34):
And, and that led to the birthof my business.
Vital medicine and reallyhonoring the unique forms of
what I'm called to do.
You know, stepping out of,again, some of the expectations
or forms that I had seen modeledfor me and realizing like, no,
like my work in the world needsto fully align.
You know, that's such a, andthat's actually one of my nine
(11:54):
keys is aligning with your, yes.
Because I, I learn like howsensitive my system is.
My energy is to when I'm engagedwith investing my life energy
mm-hmm.
Where it's not aligned and whereit's like the life energy goes
down the hole in the lifebucket.
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, so I found like howsensitive I was to that and, and
(12:18):
that really has ever since.
Given me a courage to reallystep out and keep following my
unique path and offeringprograms and books and other
things that speak to the truththat it feels like I'm here to
bring.
Dr Nat Green (12:34):
Mm, very, very powerful and.
Again, so many layers.
So it's that energy.
And you talked about otherpeople's expectations as well as
our own expectations, becauseoften the people that.
I have come on the show often,high achievers, and we've put
(12:56):
all these expectations onourselves, but we also in the
health profession and alliedhealth profession really have
these others expectations and wetake that on.
And I love that you said youcompletely stopped, rested and
had two years.
(13:18):
Where you actually peeled backthose layers and took that break
that you knew you needed.
But what I also was veryinterested in, and I know
because I've been there manytimes, unfortunately, took a
while to learn the lessons, isthat a lot of those things crept
back in and the chronic fatiguecame back.
Mm-hmm.
So what do you think was one ofthe key things that you were
(13:42):
neglecting at the time thatbrought that back?
Deborah Zucker (13:49):
I mean, when I look at it kind of with the big
picture, this, it isn't a simpleblack and white.
Mm-hmm.
There's lots of con contributingthings.
One is what I was speaking tobefore around, you know, lack of
alignment.
Mm-hmm.
That I was just, I was depletingmyself because I was investing
in kind of a form of being andway of practicing medicine that
(14:10):
really wasn't my form.
Dr Nat Green (14:11):
Mm-hmm.
And,
Deborah Zucker (14:13):
Another aspect of it that was also a
significant part of my healingwas I discovered during that
time of emerging from thatchronic fatigue the second time.
Mm-hmm.
How I hadn't had a directrelationship with my own anger
before.
And Okay.
Yeah, just that wasn't modeledfor me as a kid.
(14:34):
Mm-hmm.
I so quickly, you know, justtranslated the feeling of anger
into sort of a collapse andsadness and tears mm-hmm.
And sort of a disempoweredplace.
Dr Nat Green (14:45):
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (14:46):
And, I.
Joined a somatic therapy groupthat I ended up being in for
about 10 years, and through thatwork and that healing, I found
that connection with anger andthat voice and that sense of
strength of boundary.
Dr Nat Green (15:04):
Yes.
Deborah Zucker (15:04):
And.
So that integrated some pasthealing.
Mm-hmm.
And it also really helped me toyeah.
Sort of own, again, my owntruth, my boundary and, learn to
say no in like a real way.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
That was also really significantfor reclaiming my energy and,
and it was like, it was a wholeother level that didn't show up.
(15:26):
That first round of chronicfatigue.
It didn't show up in that sortof sabbatical time.
So it just, for me, you know, Ithink it's important to share
these kinds of stories becauseit's like.
It, it's not a linear path andit's not like we figure things
out once and boom, we have itmade for the rest of our life
because Sure.
We keep evolving, right.
(15:47):
It's like we keep evolving andchanging and our capacity keeps
deepening if we continue toconsciously be in that growth
and healing journey.
Mm-hmm.
And so I kind of feels like Igot to the point where I was
ready to go there and open upsome of these parts and, past
wounding that needed to beopened.
Dr Nat Green (16:04):
Yes.
And as you said, look, we knowthat our bodies keep the score,
that it has everything, all ourexperiences mapped in there and
hidden in there and we only see.
What we are ready to see, whenwe're ready to see it.
So the layers peel off and itshows itself, as you've
(16:25):
beautifully articulated, that'swhat happened.
And when you are ready to do it,you can deepen it and find the
next layer and the next layer.
Yeah.
So thank you so much for sharingthat.
I know you've mentioned the nineKeys to Deep Vitality, and I
would.
Love, if you could share thosemm-hmm.
(16:47):
And why they're so crucial forindividuals at points in their
life.
Deborah Zucker (16:53):
Yes.
I'd be happy to.
There's, there's a lot to eachof them, so I'll just give kind
of a brief Yeah.
Overview of each, just to give alittle taste.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, just to give just a littleintro, in addition to what I
said about where they were bornfrom is also like, I think of
these as vitality fundamentals,like relationships with ourself
(17:16):
and basic life skills, you know,that most of us were never
taught and so.
So listeners may find, you know,there's kind of a simplicity to
them on one level where it'ssort of like, of course, but
then like to actually live,integrate them and live from the
wisdom that they point to, canbe incredibly, incredibly
(17:39):
transformative.
Dr Nat Green (17:40):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (17:40):
So, the first key is honoring your unique
life.
Dr Nat Green (17:46):
And
Deborah Zucker (17:46):
this one is, at the foundation, it's really
about coming into a relationshipwith ourself and our life in
which we don't take it forgranted.
In which we live day to day.
From the place of reallyrecognizing the, miracle of
(18:07):
being alive and in a body andconscious of that, just like
wow.
And that we're each unique,there never has or will ever be
another me and.
And to shift our orientationtowards self care from it
feeling like a burden or thatwhole long list of to-dos that
we get all stressed about orhave those self judgments or
(18:31):
sense of failure around, andinstead sort of get underneath
all of that and actually feelthe honor it is to take care of
this life.
Dr Nat Green (18:41):
Hmm.
Deborah Zucker (18:42):
The reverence of, again, just wow, like I am
alive.
I don't know how long I'm gonnabe here.
You know, we're each mortal.
We could be here another day ormany years.
We just don't know.
And to live and cultivate apractice and awareness of living
more from that place and rootingour relationship to self care
from there.
Dr Nat Green (19:01):
Mm.
So important.
Deborah Zucker (19:04):
Yeah.
So that's the first one.
And the foundation.
The second is facing andembracing your shadows.
Dr Nat Green (19:12):
Mm-hmm.
I love this part.
Yes,
Deborah Zucker (19:15):
yes, yes.
And this is a big missing piece,in the realm of health and
self-care.
Mm-hmm.
Luckily, I'm really happy it'sbeing talked about more in
mental healthcare and coachingwith, internal family systems,
talking about parts work andthings like that.
But this one really acknowledgesthat we all have unconscious
(19:35):
parts of ourselves that arerunning the show.
Dr Nat Green (19:38):
Mm-hmm.
That
Deborah Zucker (19:39):
because unconscious, we're not really
aware of, but we are aware thatwe watch ourselves in avoidance
patterns in taking care ofourselves or even
self-sabotaging patterns.
And it can be very disorientingand confusing to.
Why can't I actually engage inthings that I know make me feel
(20:00):
better, that support mywellbeing that are aligned for
me and we just trip ourselves upand spin ourselves around.
And so that's what this key isabout is, is tending to those
unconscious parts, integratingthem lovingly, and coming home
to ourselves more fully in thatway so that we can actualize the
changes we seek.
Mm.
(20:21):
And feel more at home inourselves.
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (20:24):
Yeah.
That sounds to me like a verypowerful one and definitely a
missing piece.
And I know, I love that we'vebeen talking about it on this
podcast recently around thatshadow work.
Yes.
The importance of the shadowwork, that there's always this
other part and we really need toexplore it and honor it, that
(20:44):
it's there for a reason.
Yes.
And start to be game enough toexplore it.
Deborah Zucker (20:51):
Yeah, yeah.
With curiosity and love andempathy for those parts, just,
yeah, to really turn towardsthem is not something that's
wrong with ourselves or thatsomething that needs to be
suppressed, but instead like,Hey, these are parts that are
wounded or, mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(21:11):
Have been able to come into thelight.
They've, yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe intergenerationally thingshave been passed down and
Dr Nat Green (21:18):
Yes, often, often that's what we see, isn't it?
Intergenerational trauma and,and we have to almost Yeah.
Be reparented or reparentourselves.
Yes.
And it's no one's fault.
It just is because I'm a firmbeliever that we all do the best
we can with what we have.
Deborah Zucker (21:36):
Yes, yes.
So, key number three, just to,to keep moving on, is,
strengthening yourself-awareness muscles.
Dr Nat Green (21:44):
Hmm.
Deborah Zucker (21:45):
This one, you know, again, I think of as a
basic life skill.
Most of us were never taught,like how to actually become
intimate with the feedbackthat's there for us.
Mm-hmm.
24 7.
You know, that's helping toguide us towards what brings us
alive and what doesn't.
And that.
Is available to us, but most ofus just haven't learned the
(22:06):
language.
Like we haven't learned how toreally be that attuned with
ourselves.
And instead what happens becausewe haven't learned that, is that
we get spun around by all thenew health fads.
We get spun around by the adviceof all the people we know in our
lives and we can defer to, um,the protocols or guidance of,
(22:29):
doctors and health practitionerswithout really.
Being able to filter it throughour own self knowing.
Dr Nat Green (22:35):
Hmm.
And so
Deborah Zucker (22:36):
this key really helps us to find that empowered
place of recognizing that we'reour own best health guide.
Dr Nat Green (22:43):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (22:44):
And from that place we can lean in for support
and take in, all the informationout there, but to start by
cultivating that awareness inourselves.
Dr Nat Green (22:52):
Mm.
Yeah.
So.
Excellent.
Yeah.
So what will, what's the nextkey?
Deborah Zucker (22:59):
Yeah.
So key four is cultivatingresilience.
And this key is kind of tagteaming that one.
So when we expand our awareness,then it's like, well, what do we
do with that?
And cultivating resilience isabout how do we self-regulate,
how do we.
Find our feet again when lifepulls the rug out from
(23:22):
underneath us.
How do we find our way in aworld that is increasingly
stressful and chaotic that haselements of existential.
Realities that we're navigatingand Yeah, and just the fullness
of our lives.
And so just to live in reality,like there's no such thing as a
(23:43):
stress-free life.
Mm-hmm.
There's no such thing as apredictable life.
Like everything just keepschanging.
And so cultivating resilience ishow do we develop the skills and
capacities to find our feetagain, to navigate in the midst
of all that life throws our way.
And, particularly I think thesedays, a big part of it is,
(24:04):
learning how to regulate ournervous system to help to calm,
come back to that calm, rest,relax place as, more of the
baseline and just how vital thatis with, you know, if you look
at the epidemics of anxiety anddepression, burnout, and all
these stress related illnesses,which you know, is a reality in
(24:28):
our world today.
Dr Nat Green (24:29):
Absolutely.
And, how often do we seeburnout?
And, one of the things thatI'll, I'll try not to rant and
get on a pedestal right now, is,is that burnout is often
diagnosed in inverted commas, orpeople are saying, oh, I'm so
burnt out.
But what we find is there'susually this trauma underlying
(24:49):
it.
Deborah Zucker (24:50):
Mm-hmm.
Dr Nat Green (24:51):
Something that's been held in our nervous system.
Yeah.
That we need to work out how tosoftly, gently work through.
Yeah.
So we can start to really repairand heal our nervous system,
which then will change ourburnout experience.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes to that.
That's a powerful key.
I really, yeah.
Really like that one.
Deborah Zucker (25:13):
Yeah.
And then key number five is whatI already touched into a bit in
my own story.
It's aligning with your Yes.
Dr Nat Green (25:20):
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (25:20):
And this is also related to burnout.
Yes.
As I'm speaking through before.
Yeah.
And so, you know, in addition towhat I've already said, I'll
just say this one's huge.
I think it's a huge missingpiece for so many of us.
Dr Nat Green (25:33):
Mm-hmm.
You
Deborah Zucker (25:34):
know, to.
Step out of all the externalexpectations and things that
we've been told we're supposedto be or do, and really tune
into what's my truth,
Dr Nat Green (25:47):
what
Deborah Zucker (25:48):
is my clear Yes.
And to have the courage to stepinto that, whether it's, the
little choices throughout theday or a bigger soul's calling,
and then the flip side of that,that's absolutely essential is
getting clear about our NO's.
So, yes.
I use the analogy of pruning ourlife.
So we need to, you know, pruneaway, in the right timing and,
(26:10):
with, support the things that,that really do not belong, where
we're investing our life energy,where we're not getting returns.
Dr Nat Green (26:18):
Yeah.
So those things that reallydrain us.
And it's okay to prune them awaybecause it's about, as you said,
you're looking at vital medicineand that vitality and you can't
coexist with constant drains.
Yeah.
Without it having a big impacton your life and your body.
Deborah Zucker (26:38):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
And that gets back to honoringyour unique life, the first key.
Dr Nat Green (26:43):
Exactly.
So they're definitely allinterconnected, aren't they?
Which, as we know when you'vedone the healing and you are
living, breathing evidence forthat.
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (26:57):
Yeah.
So key number six.
Is experimenting with playfulcuriosity.
Mm.
And this one, I love this onetoo.
'Cause it just like, it takessort of the burden off, or the
pressure or all the rights andwrongs and sense of failure that
can be there with how we'reguiding ourselves in our life.
We're taking care of ourselves.
(27:18):
And instead, the rule book getsto get thrown, thrown out.
And we can orient in anexperimental way where we try
things out and we learn as wego.
Mm-hmm.
And we can.
Curious and playful and, enjoythe journey as one that's
dynamic because again, we'reconstantly changing and growing.
So it doesn't work to sort oflike create this expectation
(27:41):
that we're gonna stick tosomething for the rest of our
lives, or, it's gonna look justlike this instead, like.
Let's be flexible and adaptableand, try something out for a
couple weeks and learn from it.
And then tweak it if it needsto, maybe happen in a different
way or totally scrap it and trysomething new, like
Dr Nat Green (27:59):
mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Deborah Zucker (27:59):
Get to just kind of be in the journey in an
intentional way where we'restaying present to what's
actually emerging and what'shappening for us.
Dr Nat Green (28:08):
Yeah.
I think presence is a reallyimportant thing, isn't it?
Yeah.
To, we're human beings, nothuman doings.
Yes.
So to just be and be present is,one of my greatest learnings of
late, always a work in progress.
But yeah, I like that one.
Yes.
Deborah Zucker (28:27):
And key number seven is discovering easeful
discipline.
So this is about reframing ourwhole orientation to discipline,
that it doesn't have to be harshor mean or judgmental, or we
don't have to will ourselvesinto things we can actually find
an easeful way.
To support ourselves where wehave our own back, where we are
(28:48):
experimenting and enjoying thejourney, but we recognize that
discipline's needed'cause anyhabit change, needs discipline
to help over that uncomfortabletransitional time.
Dr Nat Green (28:59):
Mm-hmm.
Deborah Zucker (29:00):
So with easeful discipline, we have clear
commitments.
We develop really intelligentstrategies that kinda look at
the realities with clear eyes ofwhat's going on, in our lives.
And we attend to the competingcommitments and obstacles in a
really intentional way.
And then we create structures ofsupport to hold us in the
process.
Both people as well as,different things like our
(29:22):
calendars or reminders ormm-hmm.
Books or other playful thingsthat can just kind of keep us in
the process.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then key eight is invitingsupport and connection.
And so this one, it's numbereight, but it's really, the
embrace of it all.
(29:43):
It acknowledges that we arerelational creatures and we need
each other.
We can't do this alone.
And in fact, like the isolationthat so often happens and in our
healing journeys, is.
Part of, what needs attending.
So I really encourage teams ofsupport, that we really look at
the different kinds of supportto bring on board.
(30:05):
And I'm a big proponent, andthis is a big part of my work,
is bringing people together ingroups to engage in, group
healing and, particularlywomen's circles, both online and
in person, as a way to justreally honor just the ways in
which we're wired.
To, sort of open and, andself-actualize when we are held
(30:28):
and witnessed in that kind ofmutuality.
Dr Nat Green (30:30):
Yeah.
So really creating communities.
Deborah Zucker (30:33):
Yes.
Dr Nat Green (30:33):
Yes.
And being part of a community.
Yes.
And giving and taking.
So being able to give and share,but also giving yourself
permission to accept Yes.
Help from others as well.
So important.
Yes.
So vital.
Absolutely.
So key number nine.
Deborah Zucker (30:55):
Yeah, the ninth key is living like you matter,
and this key really kind ofbrings it full circle.
It acknowledges that.
In order to show up in theworld, in order to be of support
in whatever ways that we are,whatever scale that is, in order
(31:16):
to be a presence in the world,we need to start by cultivating
our own wellbeing.
We need to fill our well so thatwe can continue to show up and
this just feels so, so.
Vital.
These days, like we have so muchneed in our world right now,
there's so much that needsattending in their close in
(31:37):
circles and on a global level.
And we need, people who arevital and have the, personal
sustainability to keep showingup and, bring their unique
gifts.
This is, that's the other partof this living like you matter,
is like each of us has our ownpresence and gifts to bring to
the world and to honor that andto let go of the wiring that may
(32:02):
have us sacrificing or being amartyr or yeah, sort of running
ourselves into the ground in ourservice in the world that that
doesn't serve anyone.
Dr Nat Green (32:13):
Oh yes.
I love that you said that.
And I know one of my key turningpoints when I did my own
breakthrough work was reallyaround that self-sacrificing,
that good old martyr ingrainedpattern that, again,
transgenerational and yeah, it'sbeen so important for me to, to
(32:34):
identify that, to get that, asyou said, all the working
through the keys and to havethat level of awareness.
To then do something about it.
But as you've said, it's aboutself-care, but it's also that
responsibility that we have.
Mm-hmm.
Particularly as helping andhealth professionals helping
(32:55):
others, we have to do our ownwork.
Yes.
And that's so many times I knowthe way that I was trained, that
wasn't a focus.
Not at all.
It's changed.
Thank goodness.
I've been doing this for 35years.
It wasn't taught at all backthen.
And thankfully and often becauseof the shadow work that's now
(33:16):
been identified and the levelsof burnout, right in helping and
health professionals aremassive.
Yes.
Because as you said at thebeginning, we're human fancy
that, fancy that we're actuallyjust mere, human beings and we
all need to do the work and wecan't do it alone.
(33:39):
Absolutely.
So, uh, I love your nine keysand I'm really excited and
definitely going to be buying acopy of your book.
And I guess one of the things,you've shared a number of them
and I know they'll beintertwined in there.
What would you say would bespecific qualities or personal
(34:02):
attributes?
That you see as being key formoving through trauma into
post-traumatic growth?
Deborah Zucker (34:10):
Hmm.
I mean, the first thing thatcomes to mind is the courage to
be vulnerable and that comesalong with the discernment
around finding those safe spacesand people to be able to lean
(34:32):
into.
Dr Nat Green (34:33):
Mm-hmm.
To
Deborah Zucker (34:33):
be held in that way.
Yes.
Yeah.
But that to me is such, that'sthe pathway.
It's like being able to bevulnerable, being able to have
the courage to really feel and.
Own, one's true experience andto have it be witnessed and held
in safe, loving places likethat, the transformation that
(34:57):
happens through that relationalspace is huge to then.
Yeah, sort of really, comethrough that birth canal, into
this next iteration of ourselveswhere there's, a level of
integration and wholeness thatcan be there from what we've
(35:18):
lived through.
And, then, translating that intowho we are and how we show up in
the world.
And.
Yeah.
And that, just gets back to whatI was saying before about, we're
all just humans on this journeyand, yeah.
Being at home in our own skinwith whatever that journey has
(35:40):
been.
Mm-hmm.
And.
Yeah.
But with discernment around howwe share that and who we share
that with, so that, there's thatself-love and having our own
back that goes with, thathonoring of being our own, guide
in this life.
Dr Nat Green (35:58):
Yeah, and I think part of that also is it makes
such a difference when you'reable to be vulnerable.
Embrace your vulnerability, butit's also important not to just
share that everywhere from agaping wound, but from, you
know, a healing wound or ahealed wound.
(36:19):
And that having that level ofawareness and really working
through those keys in the waythat you've shared is very
powerful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love it.
Very, very important.
So.
I know that you have got a newjournal you're about to release,
so I'd love for you to tell usabout that and, where we can
(36:42):
find that.
'cause I know that our listenerswill be very, very keen to find
out more about your nine keys.
Deborah Zucker (36:50):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, thank you.
I, actually have both bookssitting right here, so I'll just
give a little glimpse of each.
So this is The Vitality Map, myoriginal book, and then the
Vitality Journal, which is aboutto come out, is here.
And so, yeah, it's a companionbook, so it goes through the
same buying keys and whereas themap, has.
(37:13):
Goes into depth in all the keysand has stories and personal
sharings and it does have someprompts and practices.
Mm-hmm.
The journal is all about justthe prompts and practices, so it
gives sort of a brief overviewof each of the keys, but goes
right into a personal process.
So it's like a guided journeyand, yeah.
(37:33):
And my hope is that, it'll be aresource for people to,
regardless of whether, whatother kinds of support they have
on board that they can reallyexplore in depth in their own
way and in their own pace.
These nine keys and, it is, it'savailable, for pre-order now,
but October 1st is when it isreleased, and you can find on
(37:55):
Amazon or order it through anybookstore.
Dr Nat Green (37:58):
Oh, that's fabulous.
And I'll put all of that in ourshow notes as well.
So, our, all our listeners canjump on board and, support you,
but also know that this is gonnabe, we've got the map, but also
now, the how to, to do our ownwork, which I think will be
very, very powerful.
(38:18):
I'll be signing up straightaway.
Thank you for that.
Thank you very much.
What, is there anything elseyou'd like to share about maybe
any important lessons you'velearned as a result of your own
journey?
Deborah Zucker (38:36):
Um, yeah, I think, it's coming, coming up in
the moment,'cause I feel like ina lot of ways everything I've
shared today are big lessonsfrom my journey.
Dr Nat Green (38:48):
Absolutely.
Deborah Zucker (38:49):
Yeah.
But I just, I just feel like,like even just this last week,
I've had some just reminders of.
Honoring just the, truth ofwhatever's going on inside, and
slowing down enough to be withit.
Like this last week, I, as anexample, I've had, this, the
leading up to this book launchtime, I'm also promoting some
(39:13):
local programs.
My daughter just went back toschool.
I have a five, 5-year-old.
I think I mentioned that.
Yeah.
So it just, it's been a veryfull transitional time and one
I've, I've learned like, okay, Idon't think September, at least
in where I live, is not a goodtime for me to be promoting book
or programs.
There's just too much going oninside myself and others.
(39:35):
But it was also like, okay, likeI need to do this in a pace and
in a way that feels congruentfor me.
Like let go of the pressures andthe expectations of it needing
to be a certain way or how I didit before and just keep coming
back.
Like the feedback I'm gettingright now is slow down.
Mm-hmm.
Feel the tiredness.
(39:55):
Like get outside on some hikes,like trust.
The process that, yeah, it's allunfolding as it needs to, that
just feels like a lesson that Ineed to learn over and over
again.
But, and it's also, it's justlike that's what I'm bringing
forth in the book that I'mpromoting.
It's like, okay, here we go.
Like that's nudge, nudge,
Dr Nat Green (40:17):
like Exactly.
Sometimes we take a little whileto get our lessons, don't we?
I speak from great.
Experience with that experience,and I guess for you as well, if
your daughter's only five, I'massuming this is her first year
at school, so this is all newfor you.
Yes.
So as you experience things forthe first time, you are looking
(40:38):
openly for the lessons andseeing them.
And I think that's a key becausesometimes it takes, as I said
many times to get the lessons.
Deborah Zucker (40:49):
Yes.
And also, I guess what I wannasay with that too is like our
life circumstances keepchanging, right?
Mm-hmm.
So it's like what worked for mebefore I had, my daughter
doesn't work in the same wayanymore.
So it's just staying open andtuned, like, okay, like this
needs to happen differently now.
Yeah.
Different realities, differentpriorities.
Dr Nat Green (41:09):
Yeah, very much so.
So, yeah.
Deborah, as we move to wrappingthis conversation up, where can
our listeners find out moreabout you and find you online?
Deborah Zucker (41:19):
Well my website is Vital Medicine.
Mm-hmm.
And I actually have a speciallanding page for podcast
listeners vitalmedicine.com/podcast.
And on there are, links to thebooks and links to free
resources.
And I also offer a discount,,for those who wanna engage in
(41:40):
any of my programs.
I do a lot of virtual work aswell, and I even have a virtual,
book launch coming up on October15th.
And in case any listeners wannalisten, or step into that
experience too, fantastic.
So, yeah.
Dr Nat Green (41:55):
That's very generous.
I will definitely put that inthe show notes.
So vital medicine.com/podcast.
Yes.
Yes.
So I'll do that and I'll shareall your links and I know you
are newly.
Hanging out on Instagram more?
Deborah Zucker (42:13):
Yes.
Yeah, I'm sort of, I am, I'mtrying out the different social
media in some new ways, soInstagram's still building for
me, but I have a wonderfulassistant now who's helping me
with that kind of outreach andpresence.
And I'm on Facebook and LinkedInas well.
Dr Nat Green (42:29):
Fantastic.
And you and I might even testout a live conversation on
Instagram so our listeners can,come and.
Chat a bit more and, even ask usquestions while we're hanging
out there.
So that might be good.
Deborah Zucker (42:43):
Yeah.
Dr Nat Green (42:43):
Excellent.
So stay tuned for that,everyone.
Now Deborah, as I wrap up, Iusually ask my guests a
question, and it's one of myfavorite ones and I'd love to
know what comes up for you.
What do you think your youngerself would think of Where you
(43:05):
are now and all that you'veachieved.
Deborah Zucker (43:07):
Hmm.
I love that question.
I just, yeah, I, well, firstly,I just wanna say, yeah, just as
you asked that, I just felt kindof my, my heart open and, just a
softness, like almost a littletenderness.
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful question.
I think she would be amazed,really amazed.
I, yeah, I've come, I've evolvedso much from my younger self and
(43:33):
you know that early twentiesversion of me,'cause I was
talking about her earlier, likeshe had no idea that this would
be a calling, like I was notoriented towards becoming a
doctor counselor or having likea big public presence or writing
books?
I mean, actually I thought maybeI might write a book, but not in
this.
(43:53):
Mm-hmm.
You know, orientation orcontent.
Yeah.
So I think she would be prettylike jaw, jaw drop a bit mm-hmm.
Of how life has unfolded andyeah.
And just my journey tomotherhood too, I think, I had
my daughter when I was 45 and,yeah.
And just, yeah, just what allthat, how that unfolded of,
meeting my husband.
(44:14):
So I think there's so manyaspects to my life that, yeah.
She would probably, be boththrilled and surprised by,
Dr Nat Green (44:23):
oh, that's beautiful.
I've got goosebumps when youtalked about that.
Yeah, that's,
Deborah Zucker (44:28):
yeah,
Dr Nat Green (44:28):
and I, I love that question because we often don't
celebrate and look back at howfar we've come and really
acknowledge ourselves.
And, I think that beautifullyaligns with your nine keys.
Mm-hmm.
That acknowledging yourself Yes.
(44:49):
That you are human, vulnerable,and that you matter.
And I think that's one of thekey takeaways I've gotten from
talking to you.
So thank you.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
You've given us such a gift of,all this knowledge and these
layers of wisdom, and I lovethat you've shared it from the
(45:11):
heart and it really matters.
So thank you so much.
I know our listeners are gonnalove this episode.
So thank you so much.
Deborah Zucker (45:21):
I really, yeah.
I appreciate the space you'veheld.
Dr Nat Green (45:24):
Thank you.
Bye for now.
Thank you for joining me in thisepisode of Growing Tall Poppies.
It is my deepest hope thattoday's episode may have
inspired and empowered you tostep fully into your
(45:44):
post-traumatic growth, so thatyou can have absolute clarity
around who you are, what mattersthe most to you, and to assist
you to release your negativeemotions.
And regulate your nervous systemso you can fully thrive.
New episodes are published everyTuesday, and I hope you'll
(46:06):
continue to join us as weexplore both the strategies and
the personal qualities requiredto fully live a life of
post-traumatic growth and tothrive.
So if it feels aligned to youand really resonates, then I
invite you to hit subscribe andit would mean the world to us.
If you could share this episodewith others who you feel may
(46:29):
benefit too, you may also findme on Instagram at Growing Tall
Poppies and Facebook, Dr.
Natalie Green.
Remember, every moment is anopportunity to look for the
lessons and to learn andincrease your ability to live
the life you desire and deserve.
(46:52):
So for now, stay connected.
Stay inspired.
Stand tall like the tall poppyyou are, and keep shining your
light brightly in the world.
Bye for now.
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