Softening Stone (AKA Hardened Heart)

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_01 (00:38):
Oh, there it is.

SPEAKER_03 (00:39):
There it is.
We're back.
It's been so long.

SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (00:48):
Well, I guess I can get right into this one.
Um, this one was my topic.

SPEAKER_01 (00:53):
Yeah, it's on your topic.
You jump right on it.

SPEAKER_03 (00:55):
Yeah.
A few months ago, um, mycoworker and I were talking
about something, some situationgoing on with like not even her
loved one.
It was just someone that sheknew for a while and she sees
them going through hard timesand she's like, Man, I've been
praying for him, praying forhim, and just you know,
obviously she she knows thatshe's a pastor's wife, you know,

(01:18):
so she she knows the ins andouts of faith, you know, and
she's like, but it's like itit's just I think it might be
her son's um friend, so like ahigh school friend or even an
elementary school friend, andher son's in the late 30s, you
know, now, but she still has himon Facebook and everything, and
she's like, I just I don't know.
Like, I just keep praying forand uh praying just for a turn

(01:38):
on his heart, and but thenagain, like she's like, I don't
know, but you know, at the endof the day, God God knows his
heart, and God knows whether hisheart will be hardened or will
not be, and I'm like, hmm, coulda heart be unhardened, you know?
So that's kind of where thistopic sparked on my on my end.

SPEAKER_00 (02:00):
And well, what do you think?
Can a heart be unhardened?

SPEAKER_03 (02:03):
I don't know because there's certain verses, like
like the first verse I foundabout it was Ecclesiastes um
6.10.
Everything has already beendecided.
It was known long ago what iteach person would be.
So there's no use in arguingwith God about your destiny.

(02:23):
And then Romans 920, I believe,kind of like piggybacked off of
it.
Um just over there.
Okay, 920.
You will say to me, therefore,why then does he still find

(02:45):
fault?
For who resists his will?
On the contrary, who are you, ahuman being, to talk back to
God?
Well, what is form say to to theone who formed it?
Why did you make me like this?
Or who has the potter no rightover the clay to make from this
same lump one piece of potteryfor honor and another for
dishonor?

(03:05):
But as I was reading that, I'mlike, yeah, but this person's
kind of talking to God in a wayabout I don't know, when I think
of someone's hardened heart, Ithink of someone who doesn't
want to know the Lord.
Um, and like I with the roomwith this one that I just was
reading on, it's almost like itseems like he's actually he's at

(03:27):
least considering God, you knowwhat I mean, and his points of
interest that he was justbringing up.

SPEAKER_01 (03:43):
Well, I think I think if if you if you do have a
hardened heart and you listen tothe word or you start reading
the word, I believe the wordwill start softening your heart
so that you can but allow theallow the Lord to to continue to

(04:03):
work in you.

SPEAKER_03 (04:04):
Do you think a hardened heart would ever go to
the word?
I I you know what I I I takethat back because people have to
try to prove that God wasn'treal and then turns out.

SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.
When he when when you when youtry and prove that God's not
real, you know, you have tostart somewhere.
So you have to you have tocommit you have to come into the
house.
And when you come into thehouse, you're gonna hear the
word.
Right.
And then if it's biblical, yeah.
You know, and then your heart's,you know, you're you're you're
gonna you're gonna the Lord'sgonna put put that thought in

(04:38):
your head, you're gonna startthinking.
Yeah.
And I think you're gonna say,well, maybe there's something to
this.
Yeah.
And you know, and the Lord's hecan he can soften your heart.
Yeah.
I know he can because hesoftened mine.
Yep.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
That was that's what I was hoping you guys would
answer with, but uh, you know.
Read that the second verse youread again.
You will say to me, therefore,why then does he still find
fault?
For who resists his will?
On the contrary, who are you, ahuman being, to talk back to
God?
Well, what is form say to theone who formed it?

(05:19):
Why did you make me like this?
Or has the potter no right overthe clay to make from the same
lump one piece of pottery forhonor and another for dishonor?

SPEAKER_00 (05:33):
I have asked God before, why have you made it so
hard on me to keep my faith?
Yeah.
And seemingly you make it somuch easier for others.
Why couldn't I be more likeso-and-so?
Why did I have to have all thesechallenges?
Why if if you loved me so muchand and I've tried as hard as

(05:58):
I've tried, why have you made itso hard for me?
Why why can't I have the roadthat they're on?
Yes.
Okay, so that right there canstart a person to have a
hardened heart.
For sure.
Because you're not focusing onthe good God's will for you and

(06:19):
your path.
You're looking at everybodyelse's path and wishing you
could have their road have theirroad.
And so I think a lot uh maybeeven Christians can do this to
where you're like, you know, whyme?
You know, why am I on this rockypath that just every time I turn
around, there's this otherchallenge, there's this other

(06:41):
thing you're throwing at me.
And this person over here, justlike they just get to it, just
seems all so easy for them.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (06:49):
So And I think I think people that have been
Christians before start thatthinking process just like you,
just like I, because we'vetalked about that before.
Like we're and sometimes theyfall astray and then they they
don't return.
And I'm like, are you going toreturn?
You know what I mean?
Like, are you gonna come back?
Because you're a loved one and Iwant you to come back, but why

(07:11):
aren't you coming back?

SPEAKER_00 (07:13):
But and it can go back to Cain and Abel.

SPEAKER_03 (07:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (07:16):
You know, Cain thought that he was pleasing the
Lord with all the things that hewas doing, but he was more
pleasing himself.
Yeah.
He wasn't giving the Lord whatthe Lord wanted from him.
Yes, he was giving him all thesegreat things that Cain thought
would be great.

SPEAKER_02 (07:36):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (07:37):
Not and gets jealous of his brother Abel because you
know, he's thinking, well, whyis what he is giving you so
great?
Because seemingly to me, I'mgiving you so much more.
But it's because of the factthat Abel is giving God what God
wants from Abel.
Yeah.
Where Cain is not doing that.
Yes.
So that's where the jealousycomes from.

(07:58):
And so, of course, Cain gets ahard heart because he can't live
up to his brother.
Yeah.
But he doesn't understand why.
So that something like that cancreate a hard heart in somebody.
Yeah.
Because they don't understandtheir personal relationship with
God.
They don't understand theirpath, and they're more worried

(08:20):
about what somebody else's giftis or what somebody else's path
is.
And they're not focused at allon their purpose in this world.
Right.
They're focused on everybodyelse's.
So they're thinking, well, God'snever done anything for me, even
though, yeah, I might haveprayed.
I've been praying for, you know,five years for him to do this.

(08:42):
He's never done it.
So, and yet so-and-so over here,seems like everything they pray
for, they get it.

unknown (08:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (08:50):
I went through that years when I first way before
Jarvey and I got married, and Iwas going back to church, and um
I had a friend, and we bothsmoked.
And we wanted to quit smoking.
So we prayed and prayed andprayed about it.
She threw her cigarettes out onthe way home from church, and
I'm searching for my next one.

(09:11):
You know, I can't get it to mymouth, and you're like, let me
catch those.
You know, and it was and then Ithen I was I gotta get back, I
gotta go grab.
I was angry.
Sure.
You know, I thought why?
How did she get healed andmissed in a way?
You know, and and I was jealousover it.

SPEAKER_03 (09:27):
Yeah, I can see that because addiction, I mean,
that's that's something to beat.
I mean, it's hard.
Like, yep.
Yeah, my my parents, they quitsmoking quit smoking together,
and my dad was kind of the sameway, just cold turkey, boom.
But stepmom, hmm, no, struggled,you know.

SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Like, yeah, then resentment kicks in sometimes,
you know.
Because yeah, you're just like,why?
You know, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (09:51):
And then it turned out like what, seven, eight
years down the road, I ended upquitting because Jarby said,
You'll never be able to quit.
You watched me watch me.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 (10:11):
He knew what words to say to trigger you.

SPEAKER_00 (10:17):
Yep.
So yeah, so I think I I thinkRoger made a perfect point.
It's like, I know it can happenbecause he softened mine.
I'm one of them.
What more proof do you need?
Yep.
But um it is more, you know,because when you think of heart
and heart, you're thinkingphysical.

(10:39):
A lot of times you can justthink physical.
Yeah.
Um but more often than not, youknow, it as I think Roger's
making the point, this comes atthis comes out out of wisdom.
It doesn't come out of anythingum physical physically that you

(11:01):
can do.
Even if we talk aboutforgiveness, yeah, you can say,
Yeah, I I forgive 'em.
But have you really?

SPEAKER_03 (11:10):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (11:10):
Have you forgiven them because you have the wisdom
to?
Mm-hmm.
Or just because you say so.
Right.
So we can use any word in theEnglish language that we want
to.

SPEAKER_02 (11:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:23):
But if there's no wisdom behind it, you know,
what's the point?

SPEAKER_02 (11:29):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (11:30):
So you can say, Yeah, I've forgiven them.
But is there anyone but is thereany wisdom behind it?

SPEAKER_03 (11:36):
Are you And the way you said it with the attitude?
Because most of Yeah, that'sattitude.
Yeah, most of the time that'show people do say it.
And you know, I I've let thatgo.
I've forgiven them.
It's whatever.
Well, it doesn't seem like it.

SPEAKER_00 (11:47):
That's still a hardened heart.
Yes.
Doesn't matter if you'veforgiven them.

SPEAKER_03 (11:51):
It's been so long ago.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (11:53):
It is what it is.
Bygones are bygones.
You know, if I saw them on thestreet, I'd talk to them.

SPEAKER_03 (11:59):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 (11:59):
Yeah, but is there any wisdom in it?

SPEAKER_03 (12:01):
Have you really taken it to the word?

SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (12:04):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (12:04):
And have you really uh, you know, have you sought
that person out?
Have you really tried to haveunderstanding with that person?
Mm-hmm.
Um that's true forgiveness.
Yeah.
That's and that's true softeningof the heart.
Yes.
As you're looking for the wisdombehind it, you're not just
saying it so that people willrecognize and let it go.

(12:27):
Leave me alone.
Yeah.
You know, I I forgive them.
I don't want to be botheredabout it anymore.

SPEAKER_03 (12:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Um that that's the difference.

SPEAKER_03 (12:36):
It it's kind of crazy how, again, how these
because we're doubling in on thetopics, you know, and I'm like,
man, you brought one for thetonight, and I brought one, and
I'm like, the person that I'mthinking about, like, yeah, you
know, he's gone through so manycrises, and a lot of the times
when people do go throughcrises, they do end up, you

(12:56):
know, being led to or even beingled to the Lord a lot of the
times.
And it's like, not for this one,you know, and I'm like, you
know, it's just like, oh mygoodness.
But but I also like you, likeyou said last week, you know,
how many people have lived inthis world and like, yeah, it
seems like you know, he might bein the minority of not turning

(13:17):
to you know the Lord duringthose crises or whatever.
Um, but there's probably a lotmore that are like him
throughout the past that they'rejust harder to crack.
Not even harder to crack, justharder to get or be more
creative to get to, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (13:34):
Yep.
And you know, in myselfpersonally, I feel I believe
that I have such a soft heartthat I can forgive anybody like
really quick.
Like, I know for a fact thatI've had to forgive a lot of

(13:56):
people for a lot of differentthings.
Um and I'm still, and there'ssome people that I've forgiven
that, you know, yeah, probablyeven I should be taking the
extra step because in my heart,I truly know like I forgive that
person.
If I saw that person today, Iwould treat them just how I
would the last time uh we werein a good relationship together.

(14:20):
Um that comes, I guess it comeseasy to me.
And either that's a gift orsomething that I've learned from
a young age because I grew upreally fast and I and I and I've
experienced a lot of things toknow that you know that yes,
everybody deserves forgiveness.
Nobody's perfect.
Yeah.
Um so I believe like I have a Ihave a that's easy for me.

(14:44):
But I realize that that's noteasy for everybody.
Right.
You know, so I don't I don'tlike condemn somebody because
you know, I I more often thannot, I I I feel pity for people
that have uh such a hard heart.
Yeah.
Because sometimes I can I canthink to myself, you know, I've

(15:05):
been able to forgive so manypeople for so many things.
And I but I know there's peopleout there that can't forgive me.

SPEAKER_03 (15:13):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (15:15):
That just that just won't even give it a thought.

SPEAKER_03 (15:18):
And you want to have a hardened heart about that.
Yeah.
But you do you know better.

SPEAKER_00 (15:22):
Yeah, but I know better.

SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:24):
So again, it's like, okay, I because then that's
where my spiritual maturity hasto be.

SPEAKER_02 (15:31):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (15:33):
I under I understand why they have a hardened heart.
So there's no expectation fromme to say, I deserve to be
forgiven.
Like I don't understand why thatperson can't forgive me.

SPEAKER_02 (15:46):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (15:47):
And and I'm not condemning them to that.
I'm not thinking like, I'm notsaying, well, God is going to
condemn you because you won'tforgive me.

SPEAKER_03 (15:55):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
No.
No.
I I have enough spiritualmaturity to understand, like,
yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:59):
You also know where they're at in their head and
where walk with the Lord if any.
Yeah.
You know?

SPEAKER_00 (16:05):
And I, you know, and and I'm uh I know there's only
the Lord is the only person Iknow that is going to give me
true total forgiveness.
You humans, you know, it'sthat's on a that's on a

(16:26):
different level.
Like I I never expect, I neverhave that expectation or or
feel, you know, like that uh,you know, somebody's I'm waiting
on that.
Yeah.
Like I deserve it.
Like enough's enough.
It's time you forgive me.
It's like, no, God, God willdeal with them in their own

(16:49):
time.
And a lot of times they thinkthey have every right to feel
the way that they do.
So I don't have that expectationfor human beings to I don't have
the same expectation for humanbeings to show me the same kind
of love and grace that the Lorddoes.
Mm-hmm.
I just don't.

SPEAKER_02 (17:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:04):
And I'm a and I'm and I'm, I guess that's the way
I look at it, I'm spirituallymature enough to look at it that
way.
Which also I think prevents ahardening of the heart.

SPEAKER_03 (17:16):
Mm-hmm.
I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (17:17):
Because I'm never letting it get to that point.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (17:20):
I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
I start feeling like I deserve somebody's forgiveness
or I deserve somebody to show merespect or, you know, to to give
me what I think I deserve.

SPEAKER_03 (17:30):
Mm-hmm.
Um I think what's scary aboutlike lukewarm Christians is when
they're being lukewarm, like inand a crisis does happen, then
like their heart is hardenedright away.
But if like if they were fullyin, yeah, then they would have
that enough understanding.

SPEAKER_00 (17:50):
Yeah.
I can forgive somebody for notforgiving me.

SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (17:54):
I guess that's how you know, that's just but that's
how I'm built.

SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (17:59):
Like I said, either I've been able to draw that from
the word from an early age.
You know, I hope that's I hopethat's the reason.
I've I've just you know beenable to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (18:10):
But um I'm sure it is, because like where else does
would that strength come from?
Right, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (18:15):
You know, but but that doesn't mean I don't have
other struggles.
It doesn't mean there isn'tother things that are hard for
me, which might be easier forthe other person that I'm
waiting on the forgiveness from,or you know.
So sometimes, you know,interpersonal relationships,
it's so easy for all of us toharden our heart towards
somebody.

(18:35):
Yeah.
For anything, for any minoroffense, or you know, just like
uh they had something smart tosay about how I dress today, or
what I brought for lunch today,or uh, you know, just uh yeah,
it's just so easy to do.

SPEAKER_05 (18:56):
Um, but it's but many of them that have the
hardened hearts don't evenrealize that they do.

SPEAKER_03 (19:02):
That's what I'm saying.
Yeah.
And most of the time it'sbecause they don't have a walk
with the Lord.
I mean, there are some timeswhere yeah, they do have a walk
with the Lord, but you're like,maybe that should be reevaluated
or adjusted or something.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:15):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (19:16):
Well, did they really know Christ?
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (19:19):
Or But like Proverbs 28, 14 says, Blessed is the man
who always fears the Lord, buthe who hardens his heart falls
into trouble.

SPEAKER_02 (19:28):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (19:31):
So when you're talking about lukewarm
Christians, I I don't know ifyou're lukewarm, I don't know if
you truly fear the Lord.
And when we say fear the Lord, Idon't think it should mean that
we're scared of the Lord.
Right.
That we're frightened of theLord.

SPEAKER_03 (19:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:48):
You know, and how we think of fear, I think it's more
of respect.
That's what I was gonna say.
Respect that you yourrelationship with him, you
understand him enough, youunderstand the word enough.
Yes, that okay, before you goand harden your heart about
something, you know, havecounsel with the Lord and be

(20:11):
like, is this really likesomething I should be closing my
heart to?
Is this something that shouldreally I should be carrying
around?
You know, and making lifeheavier, it's a burden.

SPEAKER_03 (20:21):
Picking picking it up every day.
And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
Is this really worth making other vibes terrible?

SPEAKER_03 (20:27):
Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (20:28):
Should I risk my relationship with this person
because of this?
Yeah.
You know.
All the, you know, all the loveI have for this person, this
family member, this friend,whatever they said, whatever
they've done, is it is it worthclosing my heart to them?

SPEAKER_03 (20:46):
Uh yeah, because also, you know, we we know that
we're ambassadors of Christ, andlike if you do harden your
heart, that's just gonna show.
I'm not saying it'll show thatyou're being like a hypocrite or
anything, but it'll maybe showsome not so nice sides of you,
and maybe they're going tothink, hey, well, if this

(21:07):
person's a Christian, I don'twant to be labeled as that, and
then not even fall into it.
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 (21:11):
There's there could be some certain Well, you know,
some people can look at the TenCommandments and they will they
can quote them all.
And that's that's uh that's allthey have in their tool belt.

(21:32):
So they can't they can't theyuse it as a weapon.
They they can use it as aweapon.
Like they can't forgive theycan't forgive outside of the Ten
Commandments.
Now is that I'm just gonna posea question.

(21:54):
Now, is that really what the TenCommandments are for?

SPEAKER_03 (22:01):
No.
As a as a like um guideline or anot a guideline, what am I
thinking?
How to live life.

SPEAKER_01 (22:16):
Uh yeah, uh an outline to life.

SPEAKER_02 (22:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (22:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:21):
Whether you're a Christian or not or a
non-Christian, it's still justit's an outline to life.

SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
Well, is it is it your certificate to judge?

SPEAKER_03 (22:29):
Right.
Right, not at all.
And I've had people judge meabout just about something of
the Ten Commandments, and youknow, came here and was throwing
stuff in the, you know, becauseI was on council at the time,
throwing things into thedriveway, saying that I you
know, wasn't honoring and allthe things.
And it's like, yeah, you know,that shouldn't I don't know,

(22:54):
that shouldn't be what the thatyeah, because the way he's
looking at it is black andwhite.
If it's if you did this or this,or you know, then okay, but with
my with my things going on, youknow, I have a mentally unwell
mother.
I have to protect myself.
I I don't know if I can honor amother who's mentally unwell

(23:15):
when she is manic and when sheis, you know, threatening to
harm others.
And you know what I mean?
Like there's so many things thatit's not just black and white
sometimes, you know?

SPEAKER_02 (23:29):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (23:30):
Yeah.
Then that's where that's that'swhere sometimes that that
forgiveness comes in too.
Yes.
You know, yep.

SPEAKER_00 (23:37):
But even in it when it is black and white, it's been
very black and white for me.
Very much so.
Um but again, is that you knowdoes that give everybody this,
you know.
Authority to advance theboardwalk certif, you know,
certificate to be like, yep,this is my certificate that

(24:01):
nothing.

SPEAKER_03 (24:04):
This is my pass to put on Nick saying, Nick, you're
Nick, you're a terrible personbecause it says this.

SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, you must be this this must define you
because Yep.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
And anybody for that matter.
Yeah.
Um people cherry pick.
The Ten Commandments are very,very, very important.
Sure.
Um They are there for a reason.

SPEAKER_03 (24:28):
We should do a topic about this.
And we should.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
Um, you know, Moses goes up there and it's another
one of those things while he'sup there getting wisdom and
discernment.

SPEAKER_01 (24:38):
Whatever down there complaining.
What are his people doing?

SPEAKER_00 (24:41):
They're throwing parties and doing everything the
exact opposite of what he's beentrying to tell them to do.

SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
But isn't that like a little isn't that like a child
a child when the parents arewhen the parents are wet, they
just go wild?

SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Oh, yeah.
So I guess what do we I Isuppose what do we need this
for?
Um I don't know how many pagesyours has, but we'll just try it
real quick.
What do I need?

SPEAKER_03 (25:12):
2,226 pages for?

SPEAKER_00 (25:14):
Well, I got two thousand three hundred and
thirty-five.
What do I need two thousandthree hundred and thirty-five
pages for?

SPEAKER_03 (25:20):
Of wisdom.

SPEAKER_00 (25:21):
Yes, those two slates.

SPEAKER_03 (25:23):
Right.
Yes.
Yes.
Is all that is all that actuallymatters.

SPEAKER_00 (25:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (25:32):
And I don't say this out of and I'm not saying this
out of anger or No.
Again, because I'm trying tojustify somebody showing me
forgiveness.
But it just all goes back to thehardening of the heart.

(25:55):
That I don't think the TenCommandments are not going to
help you overcome that problem.

SPEAKER_03 (26:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:10):
If you've got a hardened heart and you read the
Ten Commandments, I don't thinkyou're not, you're not that's
not going to help you.
Your heart might get harder.
It might.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (26:19):
Or you're going to bend it and twist it to your way
of thinking.

SPEAKER_00 (26:24):
Um But again, it's and to me, it's like, yes, God,
God Himself commanded that.
You as a person did not.

SPEAKER_03 (26:34):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
So, you know, it is not for us to be the final judge
of of anything.
And so and often a lot of times,I think that people can take
it's sad, but I think sometimespeople can take God's word and
use it as a weapon.

SPEAKER_02 (26:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (26:55):
They're only focused on the harsh side of it.
Part of it.

SPEAKER_03 (27:02):
I agree.
You know.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep, I agree.
Roger.

SPEAKER_05 (27:12):
But he's counting pages.
You're still counting pages overthere?

SPEAKER_01 (27:18):
I got I got a thousand pages in my Bible.

SPEAKER_03 (27:21):
Do you?
Yeah.
Yours looks tiny.
Like that's really little.
I mean, it's a good thing youhad that eye surgery.

SPEAKER_05 (27:30):
Yeah, I know.

SPEAKER_01 (27:30):
It is.
Believe me.

SPEAKER_05 (27:33):
I have a large print, I still have to put my
glasses on.

SPEAKER_01 (27:36):
You got what?

SPEAKER_05 (27:38):
Large print?
I still have to put my glasseson.

SPEAKER_01 (27:40):
I can almost read that from here.
Not really.

SPEAKER_05 (27:52):
What do you think causes people to have such a
hardened heart that they haveshut God out of their life?
Emotions.
Emotions.

SPEAKER_00 (27:59):
I think people want to they want to have the
control.
They feel safer.

SPEAKER_03 (28:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:05):
If it's under their their emotional control.

SPEAKER_03 (28:10):
They're calling they're calling all the shots.

unknown (28:14):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:15):
They're calling the shots.
They're keeping things undercontrol.
They're controlling therelationship.

SPEAKER_03 (28:19):
But even though they're calling the shots, they
still blame God for whenever badthings happen.
They say, Well, I mean, howcould you let this happen?

SPEAKER_00 (28:27):
Yeah.
That's always their answer.
Like, well, if God is real, thenhow could this happen?

SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (28:34):
But they're it's like because then you can be
like, well, how do we even getto the point where we had to
have it the Ten Commandments?

SPEAKER_03 (28:40):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (28:41):
Yeah.

unknown (28:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (28:42):
How did we get things so bad that it had to be
spelled out in black and white?

unknown (28:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Because we didn't believe what was being told to
us.
Yeah.
I mean But sometimes being inblack and white, though, either,
still isn't the s isn't thetruth.
Yeah.
You know.
But when it comes from God, itis the truth.
You know.
So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
And as Christians, we have to stand for the truth.
We have to speak the truth.
That's the that's the one of themost important things that we
have to do.
And so sometimes it does comedown to hard truths.
But as we talked in the lastepisode, our goal isn't to say,
okay, you have violated this, sowe want to push you to the other

(29:32):
end of the line.
You know, when Jesus drew theline in the sand, he didn't say,
okay, everybody step up to thatline.
If you can throw the rock farenough, you can hit her.

SPEAKER_03 (29:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (29:44):
No, that's not.
Nope.
No.
He did the opposite.
He did the opposite.
It wasn't like, okay, you havedone this, I'm going to draw a
line and you are cut off.
You can never step over thisline.
You are cut off from the rest ofus forever for what you for what
you've done.
No.
He's giving the woman anotheropportunity to start over, to

(30:05):
live her life, and daringanybody who has ever, you know,
who has never sinned, okay, bethe first one, throw a stone.
Daring them to do it because heknows not a one of them can do
it.
Yep.
With truth.
Yep.
So so that's a great point tomake.

(30:25):
It's just all those people thatwanted to pick up a stone and
throw it, yeah.
I don't know.
Where did did Jesus have amoment where he was able to
soften their hearts throughlife?
Logic through truth.
Mm-hmm.
Um or you know, did they didthey drop it out of did they did

(30:46):
they all have a moment of fear?
Did they fear the Lord at thatpoint?
No, it doesn't really say whythey they dropped the stones and
walked away.
Correct?
Yeah, it doesn't like say likeyou But our context could be
probably Yeah, we don't getinterviews with all the men all
the people that were there thatwere gonna you know we don't

(31:08):
have that.
Yeah.
So it's just Jesus made such acompelling argument statement
that none of them couldquestion.
Yep.
You know, without fear of theLord themselves.
Um so again, what do we need allthis for if any time somebody

(31:31):
does anything to us that hardensour heart that we would rather
push them away than try to drawthem back in?

SPEAKER_02 (31:40):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (31:41):
You know, what good is the service we have to the
Lord if every time somebody doessomething we are not pleased
with that we make up thejudgment call and we say, okay,
you gotta stay over there now.
You can't you can't be part ofus anymore because you know, you
just you screwed up too manytimes.

SPEAKER_01 (31:59):
Yeah.
Oh, it's a good thing I the Lorddidn't say that to me.

SPEAKER_00 (32:03):
Right?
Yeah, it's a good thing hedidn't say it to me.

SPEAKER_03 (32:05):
Yeah.
And me.
Yep.
Same.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:09):
See you.
And that's messed up in theworld.
You know what?
And that's to me, that's such animportant part of things.
I think about this a lot is youcannot hide behind your faith.
Right.
You can't you are not being agood steward of the Lord if if
you've used your faith to hide.
Yes.
Hide yourself, to hide what yourpast to what you've done.

(32:32):
No, it has to be a testimony.

SPEAKER_03 (32:33):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (32:34):
Just when Michael was telling his story again in
church this past Sunday.
I swear every time he tells thatstory, it gets bigger.
It's like catching the fish.

SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
Chase is like, I've I've heard of the story, but I
don't remember SWAT teams.
I'm like, well, it happened.

SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
The first time he caught a bluegill, then it's a
bass, then it's a walleye.
Now he's now it's a marlin.
So I was kind of laughing aboutthat.
Like every time he tells it, Ilearn something new about it.

SPEAKER_05 (32:58):
But you know, every time he tells it, I cry.

SPEAKER_00 (33:01):
Yeah, it does.

SPEAKER_05 (33:02):
It affects you because it's like my mama's
heart just breaks its parents.

SPEAKER_00 (33:07):
And it's but but it's just so it's just so real.
And it like he said, it wasn'tfunny at the time.
No, but he could look back onand be like, wow, that was, you
know, I can't believe this.
I can't believe that happened tome.
Uh I can't believe where where Iwas.
And I and like he said, Ithought I was with the Lord.
Yeah.
I thought I knew the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 (33:26):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (33:27):
You know, but I didn't.

SPEAKER_02 (33:28):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (33:29):
Um, yeah.
And so that's very important.
And I think maybe sometimesthat's another part of it with a
hardened heart, is people aremore willing, they they want to
shield their faults and whatthey have done, if it means
inflicting guilt upon somebodyelse.

(33:52):
You know, if they can geteverybody to look the other way
about, oh, what you've done,nobody will look at them.

SPEAKER_02 (33:58):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (33:59):
And so when you're doing that, once again, you're
creating a hardened heart.
You're not out there trying tohelp anybody.

SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
Soften hearts.

SPEAKER_00 (34:07):
You're not, you're not trying to bring anybody back
to the Lord.

SPEAKER_03 (34:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:10):
You know, for fear that you might have to have a
tough conversation where you mayhave to admit that perhaps I was
wrong.
Perhaps I screwed up, perhaps Ididn't do everything the way I
was supposed to.
And that's hard for a lot ofpeople to say I was wrong.

SPEAKER_02 (34:26):
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (34:27):
No, that's very hard.
It is hard for people to say, Iscrewed up.
And it can be the simplestthing.
Like even at work, if somebodymakes a mistake, they can't just
say, Yeah, I measured thatwrong.

SPEAKER_03 (34:39):
Yeah.
They have to blame the print.
They have to blame the tapemeasure.

SPEAKER_00 (34:42):
Yeah, the tape measure, the print being made
wrong or something.
Yeah, it's always something.
I was distracted, somebody hetold me to do this.
You know, it's always somebodyelse's fault.

SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (34:51):
Instead of just saying, Nope, I got it.
It was my fault, I'll get itright.
Yep.
I I take I take it.
So the more you do those kindsof things, the harder your heart
gets.
Because you're pushing peopleaway when you do that.

SPEAKER_03 (35:04):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (35:05):
And most of the time it's people that you really
love.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:09):
Yeah.
And no one wants to be aroundthat, you know?
Yeah.
That kind of attitude.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:13):
Yeah.
And it's and it's hard tooperate in that when you always
have somebody that every timeyou call them up on the phone,
you end up getting into one ofthose conversations where, well,
I'm wrong again.

SPEAKER_03 (35:23):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (35:23):
Well, you know, I, you know, it just it comes back
to the same negative, you know,they put me in that negative
space that I'm really justtrying to get away from.
Mm-hmm.
Um Yeah, so that's that's notthe kind of um so some I think
sometimes people think they areoperating in the word of the

(35:46):
Lord.
Because they're they're quotinga commandment, they're quoting
just their quoting.
Scripture.

SPEAKER_03 (35:54):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (35:56):
And they're totally missing the point.

SPEAKER_03 (35:58):
Yeah, they're using it as a weapon.

SPEAKER_00 (36:00):
Yeah.
It puts them in a safe box.
But at the same time, it'shardening their heart.

SPEAKER_03 (36:08):
Yeah.
And they don't even realize it.

SPEAKER_00 (36:10):
Yeah, they can't let anybody in, you know, because
they're they're too like I said,it may they may have to be too
vulnerable.
And I I think that's more oftenthan not the case.

SPEAKER_03 (36:25):
Yeah.
Beth, Pharaoh?
Are you gonna talk aboutPharaoh?
Not Pharaoh.
Who are you gonna talk about?

SPEAKER_05 (36:33):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (36:36):
You said someone about hardening hardening of the
hearts, but this is like like Idon't think Pharaoh, that's
right.
Yes.
I I've lost my verses on it.

SPEAKER_00 (36:45):
Exodus.

SPEAKER_03 (36:46):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it was Exodus, right?
Yeah.
But I don't remember where now.

SPEAKER_05 (36:52):
So we're not gonna talk about Pharaoh tonight.

SPEAKER_03 (36:57):
You have a summary in your mind.
It's gone.

SPEAKER_05 (37:01):
Been listening to Nick.

SPEAKER_00 (37:03):
Maybe it'll come back.

SPEAKER_05 (37:04):
I'm a spectator today.

SPEAKER_00 (37:07):
Well, Luke 21 uh 34, Jesus says, Be careful, or your
hearts will be weighed down withdissipation, drunkenness, and
the anxieties of life.
And that day will close on youunexpectedly, like a trap.
For it will come upon all thosewho live on the face of the
whole earth, and that be alwayson the watch and pray that you

(37:28):
may be able to escape all thatis about to happen, and that you
may be able to stand before theSon of Man.
So he's telling us, you know, becareful that you know your heart
your heart is not being hardenedto something, well, let's say
something emotional, somethingphysical.

(37:49):
Because yeah, because I thinkyou know, if you do become uh if
you do have an addiction of somesort, um, it can it can take you
over, it can gather up all yourattention, it can totally uh
move you away from God to thepoint where there's so many I

(38:13):
think there's so manydefinitions of a hardened heart.

SPEAKER_02 (38:15):
Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (38:16):
It's not just because somebody's angry.
I agree.
Or because somebody can'tforgive.
Uh it could be because, yes,because you do have this
addiction that it's like a heartcondition to where, yeah, you
can't, you're not, you can'tfocus on anything else.

SPEAKER_03 (38:32):
Um like psychologically, yeah, it's
psychological or mentally proventhat addiction is a you know a
thing that certain peoplestruggle with more.
Like it it's an actualcondition.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (38:44):
Yep.
If you just have a a uh habit, acondition to sin, no matter what
it is, then it causes anxiety,which you know, I think for
addicts, yes, it causes anxietybecause that's all they can
think about.
Yeah.
They're willing to they'rewilling to steal from their
friends, from their family,anything they have to do to get

(39:05):
that next fixed, get to keepthat addiction going.
And that's and they're andagain, that's another hardening
of the heart.
They're there's you're stealingfrom family members.
You know, you're stealing fromfriends.
You might not realize whatyou're doing in the time because
you're probably wouldn't do thatin a normal situation.
But under this anxiety of thisaddiction, you you can't help

(39:25):
it.
You you can't you can't get outof it.
Yep.
It just you know, it has to bedone.
You might even feel guilt aboutit, like I'm sorry I did it
again.
I won't do it again.
But until the next time.
Till the next time.

SPEAKER_03 (39:37):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (39:37):
And that's another hardening of the heart.
Like you you you're totallyclosing yourself off from the
Lord and from that reason to thepoint where you'll you'll do
anything it takes.

SPEAKER_02 (39:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (39:48):
To, you know, to serve that addiction.

SPEAKER_05 (39:52):
Yeah.
So you know that that's we seethat's can circle around all the
way around to, you know, somepeople are so angry about things
that it becomes an addiction tothem.

SPEAKER_00 (40:02):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (40:03):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:04):
They'll base the rest of their life in how they
view the world and how they'regonna approach the world and
approach people.
All based on that whatever soundcircumstance.

SPEAKER_03 (40:15):
Yeah.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
So that's another hardening of the heart.

SPEAKER_03 (40:19):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:22):
But again, as Roger said, there's proof that it
can't you can soften the heart.
You can turn it around.

SPEAKER_05 (40:30):
God is can do anything.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (40:33):
But in you have to be willing.
He has you have to be you gotthat freedom of choice.
You know, I can do anything, butfree will be free will, that's
what I was wanting.
But come out and say we gotpharaoh and freedom of choice.

(40:59):
We're not tired tonight.

SPEAKER_03 (41:03):
I knew what you meant.

SPEAKER_00 (41:06):
No, I'm trying to think you got a thought, you got
it?

SPEAKER_05 (41:10):
No, I just was trying to think Pharaoh.
Who was gonna talk aboutPharaoh?

SPEAKER_00 (41:16):
In John uh 12, 39, he says, for this reason they
could not believe, because asIsaiah says elsewhere, he has
blinded their eyes and deadenedtheir hearts, so they can
neither see with their eyes norunderstand with their hearts.
So people get people can havesituations where something has

(41:41):
happened to them and they can nolonger believe.
Yeah.
They've chosen to loan longer aswe started this topic.
You know.
Well, you know, the next doorneighbor just seems like they
got it all going on, and I don'teven see them, and I don't even
see them going to church everySunday.
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (42:01):
You know, they stay home every Sunday, they watch
football, they golf, they golf,they have a family of five and
golf, mom and dad golf.
I'm not lying.
I'm like, man, Sunday fun day.
And I love it.
I seriously love them, you know,and I'm like, but they don't go,
you know, and and but yeah, itseems like they have it all
together, you know.

(42:21):
But you also you don't knowtheir story.
You don't know.
Yeah, number one, you don't knowyour story.

SPEAKER_00 (42:26):
And number two, even if that is the case, even if
they are in a season whereeverything's peachy and
everything's going well, uh thatdoes not mean that they're in
season with the Lord, thatthey're that that they're where
they're where they're supposedto be with the Lord.
Yep.
We c we cannot judge uh againyou can't judge wealth, you

(42:52):
can't judge health, you can'tjudge uh any of those things and
say that's not the definition ofof where you are.

SPEAKER_02 (43:06):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (43:07):
You know um it has to that's that's probably I
think honestly, I probably thinkthat's probably one of people's
main problems.
Is that they're always justagain why why why am I on this
path?

SPEAKER_03 (43:26):
Yeah, they're not keeping their eyes on their road
and their path.
They're like, well, so and sohas it better.
Well, yeah.
You also don't know what so andso's been through to get there.
You know?
Exactly.
Like they could have already hadthat valley.

SPEAKER_00 (43:42):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 (43:43):
You know, yeah, they may have been through several
valleys and this is theirmountaintop.

SPEAKER_00 (43:50):
Yep.
Yeah, that's very true.
Yep.
And it's easy to think, well,you know, you don't see them
working hard now, but maybe theydid.
Yeah.
You know, maybe they've, youknow.
But again, I think it's thatthing though.
It's like, well, you know, Ifeel like I'm doing so much more
for the Lord.
I feel like what I'm doing iswhat God wants me to do.

(44:15):
So why am I still strugglingover here in so-and-so, who I
don't think is doing what theyshould be doing, and they seem
to have it all.

SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
Yep.
Getting in your head.

SPEAKER_00 (44:30):
Yeah.
But you know, we're supposed tohave that patience with the
Lord.
Wait till he comes.
You know.
Wait, wait until it's ourseason.
Just because we don't have itnow does not mean that we're not
gonna have it down the road.
Yeah.
It's gonna come at his appointedtime, not ours.

SPEAKER_02 (44:49):
That's right.

SPEAKER_00 (44:50):
Um, and we should not be worried about uh as as is
often said, you know, the enemydoes not attack who it does not
have to worry about.

SPEAKER_02 (44:57):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (44:58):
You know, why would it mess with all the Sunday fun
days?
Why would he even worry aboutthose people?
He's got them.

SPEAKER_03 (45:05):
Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
You know, he doesn't have to worry about where
they're gonna be on the couch onSunday.
He knows that.

SPEAKER_03 (45:11):
Yeah, they're not a threat.

SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
You know, and I'm not and I'm not saying that, you
know, if you're staying homewatching football.
Right.
I'm not saying you're out of Idon't know your journey with the
Lord, but it just when we'relooking at this viewpoint, you
know, a lot of people could justbe like, Well, I'm here every
Sunday, you know, and I get homeand I roll in the drive from
church, and like you said,they're they're you know.

SPEAKER_05 (45:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (45:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (45:35):
But I think this circles around to when we're in
our crisis, then are we seekingChrist?
Because, you know, Satan's afterus all the time, all the time,
all the time.

unknown (45:47):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (45:47):
And so he's just waiting to seeing, oh, as we've
said direction you're gonna gonow.
Yeah, you know, what are yougonna do now?

SPEAKER_00 (45:53):
All you gotta do, all you gotta do is say, you
know, I accept battle.
Bring it.
Okay.

unknown (46:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (46:03):
That's yeah.
That's all you gotta say.
And sure enough, it's like,okay.
You're going to the front line.
Where a lot of people they don'tthey don't say that.
So guess what?
Yeah, you can stay back in camp.
You're not a threat.
You're not you're not useful.

(46:26):
So a lot of times, yeah, it justit's you know, it it's just so
easy to gosh, I wish I had moretime to enjoy the things I want
to do.
You know.
But you have to be spirituallymature enough to say, well, yep,
I'm tired.
You know, I'd love to have sometime off.
I'd love to, you know, just havea couple Sundays to not do

(46:50):
anything.
I just want to get up, stay inthe same clothes I woke up in,
and just lay here on the couchall day and just do what I want
to do.
But as you say, a lot of timesonce you've said I I accept this
battle, it's like, well, youain't gonna do that.
You know, and you and you can't,you know, yeah, naturally you
can get frustrated, but you justhave to have that wisdom to say,

(47:14):
well, this is this is the seasonI'm in.
I've accepted this.
You know, so I'm gonna have itharder, I'm gonna have more
responsibility, I'm gonna, youknow, have to, you know.
I you know, I I can't yeah, oncethe enemy knows, you know, that,
oh this is somebody we gottasomebody we we we gotta keep our

(47:39):
eye on.

SPEAKER_03 (47:40):
Or even if if it's if it's someone who's pushing
back against you know, Satan atall, or even just given an
opposite view of what anythinghe has aligned with.
Yeah, he he's going to startgoing full swing.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (47:54):
You know, and and and sometimes I look at it that
way.
It's like, okay, so I forwhatever reason, when I was a
teenager, I decided to open thisbook and start reading it.
And perhaps in that moment, thatis the same thing as saying,
okay, I accept battle.
Because I I'm gonna crack thisone book that he does not want

(48:15):
me to read.
You know, I'm gonna crack itopen at the age of 13.

SPEAKER_02 (48:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
So guess what?
It's gonna be a little harderfor me.
We're all, you know, where I canlook at I when I was in high
school, I thought, yeah, allthese other they get to go out
every Friday, Saturday night, dowhatever they want, they don't
have any cares in the world.
You know.
Yeah.
And I'm thinking about all thesedeep things.
I'm already thinking about allthese things I probably

(48:42):
shouldn't be thinking about at ayoung age.
And it's just like, and it's onething after another, constant
challenges.
You know, sometimes I win, I'llbe honest.
Sometimes I win that battle,sometimes I lose that battle.
Yeah.
But I always go back in.

SPEAKER_05 (48:57):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (48:58):
Yeah, I always go back in.

SPEAKER_01 (48:59):
You learn from the loss.

SPEAKER_05 (49:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (49:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (49:03):
So I think God had you open that Bible at the age
that you were at to prepare youfor the life that was coming.

SPEAKER_00 (49:11):
Yeah.
But he never said, okay, nowthat you've now that you're in
this book, it's all gonna beeasy.
Since you join my side, well,you you've got it made.
And perhaps that's what a lot ofpeople think it's gonna be.
Yeah.
When they've when they'vestarted the opposite, which is
they've had they have hadchallenges and they have had

(49:32):
things in their life that theywant to change, and they think,
well, if I come if I come rightto the Lord, it'll fix
everything.
Like it's just it'll be justlike flipping a switch.
It's like, nope.
Doesn't work that way.
It's not promised that way.

SPEAKER_03 (49:46):
No.
I think we have to be very clearwhen we are giving the word that
it's not going to be that waybecause then it can leave people
astray.

SPEAKER_00 (49:54):
And I think sometimes, you know, in the days
of cable when you could justflip the channels and a pastor
would come on the TV.

SPEAKER_03 (50:02):
I'm sorry, I thought you brought up Cain and Abel
earlier.
Yeah.
And I was like, is that what?
I'm like, cable?
Did he just like put Cain andAbel a naked hera?
No, cable kids.

SPEAKER_00 (50:20):
Cable.
Were you too young for cable?

SPEAKER_03 (50:22):
No, I know what cable is.
Cain and Abel's on my mind,apparently.

SPEAKER_00 (50:27):
That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 (50:31):
Squirrel.

SPEAKER_00 (50:33):
Do you even remember what you were saying?
You know, you could flip thechannel and you could come along
different religious channels,pastors, and they a lot of them
can just make it seem like justcome on into the Lord today,
give it up, you know, and andthey just make it seem like
peaches and cream.
Yeah, yeah.
Just like that's all you gottado.
Send us, send us$20, and yourlife will change, you know.

(50:56):
And I think a lot of people arelike, yep, they called a number,
they called the number, theygave their twenty dollars, and
nothing's changed.
And that but that's it for them.
They're like, okay, that didn'twork.
It was like uh going to Vegasand getting that slot one time
and you know, thinking it'sgonna be all carried.
Yeah, you know, you're like, goagain.

(51:18):
Yeah, a lot of people in thiscase they don't go again.
Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 (51:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (51:22):
They walk away like, okay, let's try something else.
Because again, they're missing,again, there's almost 3,000
pages here.
So your journey starts when youaccept the battle and you got a
lot to go through.
And as we know, we go throughthis is what's great about this

(51:43):
podcast is that it gives us thedrive and the focus to keep
going over this book from weekto week.
And we come up with these topicsthat seemingly don't have a
connection that can be so randomwhen we start them, and then by
the end of it, we're going, wow.

SPEAKER_03 (52:01):
Yeah, and did you notice it uh lined up with his
testimony on Sunday?

SPEAKER_00 (52:06):
Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 (52:07):
What?

SPEAKER_00 (52:08):
Yeah, you guys didn't text each other, right?
Some of the things that he wassaying, you know, preaching on
Sunday, like that's what wetalked about in the podcast.
And I don't know if he hadlistened to it or not, but
sometimes it's just funny howeverything will follow.

SPEAKER_03 (52:24):
Work for his own.

SPEAKER_00 (52:25):
To me, that's that's not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_03 (52:27):
No, nope.

unknown (52:28):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (52:30):
I agree.

SPEAKER_00 (52:31):
Yeah, and and I but I will say, once once you're in
the word and you do this all thetime, because sometimes I come
in here and I'm like, man, I I Ididn't, you know, I didn't study
up on this as much as I wantedto, and I I plan to really write
all these notes down and reallyprepare for a good podcast.
And I just, you know, but then Ialways have that thought.
It's like I'm just a conduit forthe Lord's.

SPEAKER_03 (52:54):
Yeah, like this the the topic was just a starting
point for the night.

SPEAKER_00 (52:58):
Like depending on if the Lord's got it, if I've been
in the word enough, I'm gonnasay the right things, even
though I don't I didn't write itdown.

SPEAKER_03 (53:05):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (53:06):
I'm not speaking verbatim from scripture.

SPEAKER_03 (53:08):
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (53:09):
But I got it, it's gonna be there.
Because because it's gonna comefrom the Lord.
Yep.
As long as that is my intention,my desire, that's what's going
to happen.
Yes.
And if I don't say it, Beth'sgonna say it.
And if Beth don't say it,Roger's gonna say it.
Yeah.
If all of us don't say it, Sid'sgonna say it.
Yeah.
And it all just exactly that'sthe way it works.

(53:30):
Yep.
You know, but and sometimes Ithink nothing else works that
way.
Like if if we all came in herewith a textbook on how to repair
a nineteen uh eighty-seven FordBronco, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (53:44):
We'd we'd be like staring at each other like I
hope someone worked for Fordbecause Yeah, like I did.

SPEAKER_00 (53:52):
Yeah.
Roger might be able to walk usthrough it a little bit.
But you know what I mean?
It's not like uh it's not likeanything else.

SPEAKER_03 (53:59):
No, no, it's really not.
And people truly won'tunderstand that until they get
in that relationship and come toknow him and realize how he's
working.
Yeah exactly as we're saying.

SPEAKER_00 (54:11):
Yep.
But that means we have to beworking.
Yes.
You know, yeah.
We just we we don't just get tosit in a lawn chair with
lemonade and watch God go towork.

SPEAKER_02 (54:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (54:23):
You know, that's that's not, and I think
sometimes people expect that.
They just expect the Lord tosolve all their problems.
And that doesn't that doesn'tshow faith, that shows
expectation.
There's a difference betweenfaith and expectation.
Oh, that's a topic.

SPEAKER_03 (54:43):
Oh.
I'll write it down.

SPEAKER_00 (54:46):
Okay.
Right?
I mean, there's there is adifference between having faith
and having expectation.

SPEAKER_03 (54:53):
Um another thing to piggyback on.
I guess it kind of piggybacks onanother piggyback.
So I opened up Psalms 6.

SPEAKER_00 (55:02):
Six envision a shirt with organic church on the
front, and then it's got a bunchof pigs jumping over you.

SPEAKER_03 (55:09):
See, I envisioned a shirt saying cable spelled C I.
Wait, C-A-I-B-E-L.

SPEAKER_00 (55:17):
Watch piggyback jumping on cable.
On organic on the organic cablenetwork.

SPEAKER_03 (55:23):
But okay, the piggybacking thing was I don't
even know why I did was someonetalking about Psalm 60 at all
during this?
I don't know.
But I don't I don't think wait.
I don't think so.
Beth said something aboutPsalms, but I think I was trying
to get to it.
I don't remember which one itwas, but anyway, I opened up the

(55:44):
book, and there's a couple ofthese, they're not paragraphs,
what would you call them?
Um I'm just gonna call themparagraphs.
Or I guess they might bechapters, but they end with
Sayla, Sayla, Sayla, Sayla.
And that was, you know, my uh mystepsister and her husband, they

(56:06):
have Enoch.
Well, then when they werepregnant with their other, they
were trying to figure out namesand they were between Sayla and
another one, like another name.
Well, she flipped to thescripture of the day at church.
What do you know?
It said Selah.
So it's like, man, you know,that's crazy.
But that was just God working inthat way.

(56:26):
Like, hey, yeah, you need youneed the name or Selah.
There you go.

SPEAKER_01 (56:31):
Yep.

SPEAKER_03 (56:32):
That's your that's your decision.
I made it for you.

SPEAKER_01 (56:36):
Yeah, pretty much.

SPEAKER_03 (56:39):
What'd you say that was difference between faith
over expectation?
Yep.
Got it.
Okay.
I've got two two topics, ideas.
So the Ten Commandments and thenthat one.

SPEAKER_00 (56:59):
Very good.

SPEAKER_03 (57:00):
Then we can make the little t-shirt on the side, too.

SPEAKER_00 (57:03):
The little t-shirt on the side.
I can just see the pigs doinglike a leap leapfrog.
You know, like yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (57:12):
We'll have to ask uh over a puddle.
Over a puddle council about hey,do we have enough uh money to
Beth?
Do we?
I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 (57:22):
People are like, what in the world?

SPEAKER_03 (57:24):
Pigs piggybacking.

SPEAKER_00 (57:25):
Like, well, you gotta listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_03 (57:27):
That's yeah, that'll prove if you're actually
listening or not.

SPEAKER_00 (57:30):
Do you know what it means?

SPEAKER_03 (57:32):
That's a good way to get people to start listening.
Yeah, what like yeah.
If you know, you know.

SPEAKER_00 (57:40):
Yeah.
Knowing is half the battle.

SPEAKER_03 (57:44):
Yep.
That's fun.

SPEAKER_00 (57:48):
Um I would did want to read from uh Ephesians 4, 17.
So he says, So I tell you thisand insist on it in the Lord,
that you must no longer live asthe Gentiles do in the futility
of their thinking.
They are darkened in theirunderstanding and are separated
from the life of God because oftheir ignorance that is in them

(58:11):
due to the hardening of theirhearts.
Having lost all sensitivity,they have given themselves over
to sensuality so as to indulgein every kind of impurity with a
continual lust for more.

SPEAKER_03 (58:26):
That was Ephesians.

SPEAKER_00 (58:28):
417.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (58:35):
And what did you take away from that when you
read it?

SPEAKER_00 (58:40):
Um I think it goes back to everything that we're
talking about and having a truethe when people harden their
hearts uh their understandingbecomes very narrow.

SPEAKER_02 (58:55):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (58:56):
Because like you said, they want to cherry pick.
They want to take these threethousand pages and they want to
reduce it down to a one page,ten page, you know, of how how
it can affect their their uhdesire to live life.

(59:22):
So that's how you go into thatfutility of that thinking is
that it's the futility that youyou are not going to grow in
Christ.
You are not gonna grow in yourrelationships with other people.
Everything that you do is gonnabe futile because you you can't
you can't have a relationshipwith human beings or the Lord

(59:46):
when you're willing to, youknow, just reduce your
understanding.

SPEAKER_02 (59:50):
Yes.

SPEAKER_00 (59:51):
And even though, or ignore you know, what you have
in front of you in order to,whether it's to protect yourself
or to protect somebody else orto um use it as some kind of
power over somebody or influenceor whatever whatever your
intention is.
Um if it's if it's not based ona total understanding of the

(01:00:15):
Lord, yeah, and that's howyou're directing your emotions,
your relationships, and allthose things, then yeah.
You're gonna have a heart andheart.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:26):
Yep.

unknown (01:00:27):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:27):
You're slowly just going to turn inward.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:30):
And be consumed by it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:32):
Yeah, you're just gonna turn inward.
Yeah.
Instead of we're supposed to bewe're supposed to be going.
Yes.
You know, not turning ourselvesin.
And a hardening of the heart,that's what that does.
You just become, you know yournumerouno.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:47):
Focusing on yourself and your own emotions and
feelings.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:00:53):
That doesn't serve anybody.
Might might serve you for awhile.
For a minute, but it's but Idon't know if I don't think you
can find true happiness in that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:01):
No, because it'll start negative negatively
serving you.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:06):
Based on how to do that.
That just leads to isolation.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:08):
Yep.
Yep.
What's so funny over there?

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:12):
Roger's yawning, I'm yawning.
You know how you see one personyawn and then the next person
does.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:19):
It is like yeah.
Contagious.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:22):
Yep.
So yeah, that's that's what Itook from that.
Uh Beth, what'd you take fromthat?

SPEAKER_05 (01:01:29):
I'm gonna agree with you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:33):
Well, even like you were bringing up in Luke
earlier, you know, um with likethe anxieties and stuff, like
that leads to isolation, likeyou just said, you know?

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:44):
It does.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:46):
There's no fellowship in that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:48):
No.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:49):
You know, there's no fellowship in it.
The only other one I had wasHebrews uh three fifteen.
Three Hebrews three fifteen.
Today, if you hear his voice, donot harden your hearts as you

(01:02:10):
did in the rebellion.
So the more you rebel againstGod, the more you harden your
heart.
You hear the word, but you don'treceive the word.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:22):
Next morning, you don't do it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:24):
Yeah.
Then uh that's rebellion.
And that only leads todestruction.
Yes.
Wow.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:36):
That sounds like a like a t-shirt?

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:38):
Like Megatron from the Transformers or something.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:41):
Yeah.
Like a commercial for a toy.
Destruction.
Yes.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
She's been watching way too manyof them cartoons before.

SPEAKER_00 (01:02:53):
Yeah, yeah, she's gonna be.
Yeah.
So so what uh what does Cooperwatch right now?
Because we're in we're in the uhwe're in the Mickey Mouse
season.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:01):
Are you?

SPEAKER_00 (01:03:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:02):
So he does he's so goofy.
So he's only gotten he likesMickey, but like he doesn't like
watching Mickey Mouse.
Like he likes seeing him.
I think so how it started washis um it'd be his aunt had a
Mickey Mouse from when he shewas younger, because I think
she's 13.
So she gave Cooper Mickey Mouse,and then I put Mickey Mouse on

(01:03:25):
the TV, and he was like all forhim at first, and he'll still
watch Mickey Mouse, like a videoof Mickey Mouse doing head,
shoulders, knees, and toes, or asong of Mickey doing something,
but he won't sit there and watchhim.
Same thing with like Bluey andBingo, like he didn't want
anything to do with them.
And then I think we bought himlike a t-shirt or my mom bought
something, and now he'llsomewhat watch Blueie in the

(01:03:48):
mornings, like when he's becausehe'll still drink a bottle, like
when he still wakes up, like atransition bottle thing.
Um, but then we've been havingsome issues like putting him to
sleep.
So Chase's mom said somethingabout it's these cats.

(01:04:09):
It looks like a a cat, like it'sit's cat's AI is what it is, but
it's like this cat that's actinglike a mom.
She's like making dinner overthe frying pan, and and I'm
like, what is she said, well,you know, I had him at my house
one day, and um he, you know, hewouldn't fall asleep in the
crib, so I brought him down andwas on the couch with him, and

(01:04:31):
she's like, I I would just golike this with his nose, and he
fell right asleep.
As soon as I did that one day, Iwent like this.
He was like, I'm like, youlittle punk.
Like you let Bubba do it, butnot me.
Like, I think it's because heknew he was getting tired
because it has it has a verycalming sound to it, like not a
violin, but it's just verysoothing and calming.

(01:04:52):
And so sometimes at night, if hebecause I mean the past two
nights he won't, he like refusesto fall asleep.
So and he did have a double earinfection, which we got that
solved last week because I'mlike, well, maybe we've got
something going on, and sureenough we did, you know, and
because I think it was only onenight where I was like, he had a
harder time falling asleep, andthen he kind of did something

(01:05:14):
with his ear.
I'm like, hmm, you know, butyeah, so it's kind of been cats
and um oh wiggles, that's beenthe thing right now.
But it then again, it's only onYouTube, and he only likes um
Biz now sleep.
Shh shh.
It's like all these songs.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:32):
He just likes to listen to songs and music and
dances and is this like old orare they still going?
Are the wiggles still going?

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:39):
I don't know if they're still going.
They have a ton of videos onYouTube though.
That's what we turn on.
But they have like videos onthere that teaches them like
learning things.
I haven't I actually was ontheir channel yesterday, like
what other things do they have?
Because um, and yeah, I need theI need to just but he doesn't
like all of their videos, onlycertain ones.

(01:06:00):
He's how old?
18 months.
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:02):
Yeah.
So he can't really tell youwhat's wrong yet.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:05):
No, right it's yeah, with Faye, it's just but he's in
this phase where he says pleaseabout everything.
Please, please, please.
I'm like, like earlier he waswanting me to move out of the
seat so he could sit there.
I'm like, because he startedpulling himself up onto our
chairs now.
I'm like, listen, buddy, justbecause you say please about

(01:06:27):
everything, like doesn't mean Ihave to do it, you know.
Magic word.
Yeah, because he's he's tryingto push his limits.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:34):
Yeah, well, he found out it worked.
Yes.
Now he's just going to town.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (01:06:39):
Mm-hmm.
Now, how old's yourgranddaughter?

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:41):
Uh pretty, pretty close.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:45):
Like six or eight weeks.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:46):
Help me out here.
She'll be two in February.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:48):
February.
So okay, so like twenty twentymonths.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ish.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:53):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:06:55):
And she's just she's getting a lot more vocal.
Yeah, she could say a lot morewords and um repeat a lot of
things back.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:03):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:04):
Um Chase do like people's names, like she's
getting starting to get a lot ofpeople's names.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:08):
Yeah.
Um Chase will do like a like sayone more, like and he'll go, one
more.
And Cooper started going, onemore.
Like who goes, mm-hmm.
Like put his little finger up.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 (01:07:19):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:21):
But then one day I was counting to three because he
wouldn't like stop doingsomething.
I'm like, one, two, but before Isaid two, he goes, hmm?
And like points his finger up.
I'm like, no, that not that one.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:34):
This is the one where you're going to be
disciplining, sir.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:38):
Yeah.
You say no, she'll say no.
Um, but yeah, it's it's likeit's amazing because even when
we were in Maine, uh, because Iwas around her every day.
Yeah, yeah.
And it just was like, wow.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:53):
Like, yeah, my dad definitely got that realization
at like on vacation.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:58):
Like she was a lot more just vocal and could say a
lot more things.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:02):
And even Alyssa saw, you know, she was in nursery on
Sunday and was like, Oh my gosh,Cooper's like actually
understanding what I'll say nowand like, you know, try to say
something back or knows what I'mtalking about.
Like, if you tell him go getyour shoes, he's going to get
his shoes, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:18):
Like once he settled down.

SPEAKER_05 (01:08:22):
There's a surge of independence.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:24):
Oh yeah, he's got some independence.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:26):
No more trips to the dryer.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:29):
Oh no, no, not since last week.
Yeah.
They're they're fun though.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:38):
Oh yeah.
They're a lot more fun than whenthey're not yours and you can
send them home.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:08:45):
I think let's see.
Um, Saturday.
Well, we kept we kept her overFriday night.
And then Saturday we got up andwent to like it's not a pumpkin
patch, but this guy was likeselling pumpkins and mums, and
so we took her out there.
But by the end of that trip, shewas just not having it.

(01:09:06):
And we're like, okay, time to goback to mom and dad.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:10):
Here you go.
Yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:12):
It's like you can spoil them all you want, and you
go, here you go.
Yeah.
I got her all.
Yeah.
Go to all sugar it up and rippedit.
She's tired now, she's sick ofus.
Here you go.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:22):
Yep.
My stepmom uh she tries to takeall the little ones like
somewhere every every fewmonths.
She'll, okay, it's your turn,it's your turn.
And it was Cooper's turn.
And she took her, took him tothe pumpkin patch.
He didn't care.
Like it was the slide thing thathas the corn at the bottom, all
these things.
He was just straight faced thewhole time.
And then she's like, but he wasexcited to pick out a pumpkin.

(01:09:44):
I'm like, yeah, because it's itlooks like a ball.
So he's like, you know, he's allabout that.
Yeah.
It's funny.
She was looking forward to itfor, you know, a month or so.
Like, take it to the pumpkinpatch.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:56):
Yeah, you always think it's gonna be so great.
Uh-huh.
And then you get there andyou're like, they are not
receiving this.
Yes, yes, yes.
Like, yeah.

unknown (01:10:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:04):
Is this for me or for them?
Yeah.
And it is.
And you're right.
It's like this is for you.
And you're just hoping the kidgoes along.
Yep.
And then they don't, and you'relike, you've ruined everything.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:13):
Yeah.
You're like, well, yourexpectations on me were kind of.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:17):
Yeah, I'm just gonna do it.
I'm I'm consistent.
You're the one that's yeah,making these unreasonable
expectations for me.

SPEAKER_05 (01:10:23):
Take them to Disney, spend all that money.
Yeah, and there's and MickeyMouse is just one big rat at
that point.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:29):
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:31):
Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:32):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:37):
Well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:10:37):
Yeah.
Well, any parting wisdom?
Don't eat the yellow snow.
Rang Zappa.
Right?
Hey, I know my stuff.

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:51):
I got a million of them.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:56):
Uh, Nick, your turn to pray?
Yep.
Okay, I'm gonna get you started.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:02):
All right.

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:06):
Lord, thank you for bringing us all together to get
tonight.
Um my main prayer tonight is nomatter where we are, what we're
doing, um, who we are inrelationship with, um, always
help us to always try to be moreopen to bringing your word to

(01:11:27):
people and not using your wordsto try to push people away, to
try to prove our point, um, totry to um for our own selfish
ambitions.
Just always help us uh preventourselves from having a hardened
heart with people, to always tryto be understanding, um, to help

(01:11:47):
other people see your wisdom bybeing open, by bringing people
to us.
Um I pray that um we cancontinue to have this uh that we
can continue to seek discernmentanytime that we we feel that we
are being challenged, that we ifwe do feel we're in crisis, that

(01:12:10):
we do feel um that um there maybe a relationship that we're
having with somebody else thatmight not be exactly where we
want it to be.
Um that we are seeking yourguidance, and we are not only
praying for ourselves for yourwisdom, but we're also praying
that uh the people we're we arein relationship with will gain

(01:12:33):
that wisdom as well.
Yes.
Um I pray everybody makes ithome safely tonight.
Um I pray all these things inyour precious name.
Amen.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:40):
Amen.