The Woman Who Led When Men Wouldn't

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The Book of Judges chronicles a 325-year period when God's chosen people repeatedly strayed from His path, suffered consequences, cried out for help, and were rescued by appointed leaders. Among these judges stands Deborah - a remarkable woman who served as prophet, military strategist, poet, and leader when men failed to step up.

In this episode, we explore Deborah's extraordinary story and its striking relevance for believers today. Her Hebrew name means "bee," representing both the sting of her authority and the sweetness of her leadership. As one of the Bible's most influential women, Deborah sat beneath her palm tree rendering judgment while Israel suffered under Canaanite oppression.

When God called her to confront the mighty army of Sisera with his 900 iron chariots, Deborah demonstrated tactical brilliance. She positioned Israel's forces atop Mount Tabor, gaining decisive advantage over their enemies struggling uphill. Her victory, completed by another woman named Jael who drove a tent peg through Sisera's temple, ushered in forty years of peace for God's people.

Deborah's story reminds us that God continually provides opportunities to return to Him. Her willingness to give God full credit for victory stands in stark contrast to our tendency to claim success as our own. Join us as we examine this powerful biblical account and discover how Deborah's ancient wisdom speaks directly to our modern spiritual battles.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
All right, we're on Just the three of us.

Speaker 2 (00:04):
Just the three of us, me Falling apart here.

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
Was your chair falling apart?
Yeah, trying to get comfortable.
Michael's walking in Trying tofind the right position.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, so Michael's no longer with us.
He'll be back.
Yeah, he's actually, we're notletting him go that easy.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
No, but we'll give him a break.
Give him a break.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I think he's just going to.
He's on break.
He's going to come call himback.
Yeah, yeah He'll be begging.
He just walked in with likefour big Amazon boxes and his
trunk is still open, so he'sprobably got more.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
That guy, that just means more work for you, Roger.

Speaker 3 (00:38):
That's what that means I know.
I know.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
You look tired.

Speaker 3 (00:43):
We just hung one of them, 86-inch.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
TVs.
Yeah, ooh, yeah, how'd that go?
Tell us about that.

Speaker 3 (00:50):
Actually it went fairly well.
Yeah, yeah, I held the template.
He drilled the holes.
I held the bracket.
He put them in.
We put the brackets on the TV.
Of course we had Sis as abackup.
She came back in case Icouldn't handle it, but we got
it up there.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
How long did it take?

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Actually not very long.
Good, I was impressed.
That's good.
Now he wants see.
He's on vacation this week.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
That's this week.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Yeah, and he wants me to take and put the other one
up.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
By yourself, you mean .

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Yeah, well, you did the first one, roger, so you
should know how it works.
Oh yeah, I know there you go,there you go.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Have you ever hung a door?
I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
Hung a door.
Yeah, no, I've hung a cat, butnot a door.
Oh sorry, Margie.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
All right, you're going to have to delete this
whole introduction.
I mean, we're only at minute 45.

Speaker 3 (01:48):
No, I'm not, for the sake of Roger.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
I've never hung a cat , really no, you said that like
you're surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
How about a door?

Speaker 2 (01:56):
Yeah, I've hung a door.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Well, you know they're a pain in the butt right
.

Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Well, Chase has done a few, but we got a front door
like a new front door, and he'slike oh, he was just dreading
putting it in, you know, and Ithink he was done within like an
hour and 15 minutes.

Speaker 3 (02:10):
Yeah, she did, he was so satisfied with himself.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
So just reminding you of that.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
Practice makes perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, all right.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Oh yeah, Last night I was actually on another podcast
.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Oh, you were Like you were sitting in on one.

Speaker 2 (02:25):
Well, the podcast I listened to called Addressing
Gettysburg.
They started doing theirs liveon YouTube.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
You called in.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, oh, that's cool it just happened to be on a
subject that I'm reallyinterested in.
And it kind of what they weretalking about.
My great, great greatgrandfather's regiment was in
that part of the battle.
So I have a lot of interest init, and there's a particular
soldier in that regiment thatI'm doing research on.
So it started at seven, right?

(02:55):
So I thought, okay, you know,I'll follow along live and I'll
call in when it's time.
Well, here it is going on 930.
And I still haven't got to thecall-in part of it, oh man.
And usually I'm in bed by 930.

Speaker 1 (03:08):
That's what I was going to say.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
But finally, you know , yeah, they did the call-ins
and I was on for I don't know,just a few minutes, but it was
kind of cool it was fun.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (03:19):
So the first callers Um it was kind of odd because
I'm following it on YouTube.
And then he said okay, go aheadand call.
Well, when, uh, they put me on,they were in a different spot
than what YouTube was.
So either I was a little bit, Imust've been a little bit uh
behind.
I mean, I can't click on theupdate live button but, I still

(03:41):
must have been a little bitbehind, so then I was throwing
off a little bit yeah so it was.
It was kind of hard to talk onthe phone yes, instead of
looking at people, and and havea conversation with two people
as opposed to what we do.
Yeah, yeah, you know because,and there's always a little
delay- delay.
I was about to say yeah whichmakes it kind of difficult, but

(04:05):
it was fun.
Like I said, it was only a fewminutes, but I was probably like
the second or third caller yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
I wonder if dale he probably wouldn't have had a
delay with I don't know, becauseI wondered that too yeah,
because it was kind of it almostfelt like there was a delay.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Remember, we'll have to ask him yeah, Because I
immediately went back andlistened to myself.
Oh yeah.
Because I thought, oh, I soundstupid, especially because I was
like, oh, I'm kind of talkingover them because of the delay
or not speaking up soon enough,but I think it was okay.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
I'm sure they're used to it too.
I think I sounded halfwayintelligent.
That's good.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, but I kind of shared some information that
they didn't know.

Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Because from doing research, I had some things that
they had never seen before.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, that's good.
So yeah, it was fun.
So your great, great, great,great grandpa Well however many
greats would go back to theCivil War.
Okay, at least three, yeah,yeah, I don't know if it would
be four, but yeah, probablythree.
I would think Right, probablythree.
Yeah, depending on, yeah, thegenerations, I guess.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well, how?

Speaker 2 (05:11):
long has that been?
Well, 1863 is.
You know.
That was the battle.
So you know, almost 170 yearsago.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it could be three.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I wasthinking.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Three and a ago.
Yeah, it could be three.
Yeah, yeah, that's what I wasthinking Three and a half.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
Three and a half.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Three and a quarter.
I feel like I should shut thatdoor.
I'm going to go shut it.

Speaker 3 (05:37):
Wait, Frank, you think somebody's listening to us
.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
We have listeners.

Speaker 3 (05:42):
Someone's listening to us.
Where's Beth?
Where's Beth?

Speaker 2 (05:48):
at.

Speaker 1 (05:49):
Beth is working.
Quote unquote Okay, she may ormay not join us, we'll see.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Any bets.

Speaker 1 (06:01):
Any bets on if Beth is coming?
Yeah Well, I kind of told her Iwas like well, I don't know if
it'll be worth coming, dependingon what time she gets out.
I said, since I have to be outaround seven.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
Yeah, so I would say it's going to be the three of us
.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
That's just fine, that's okay.
We'll do okay.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Can only go up from here.
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
That's here.
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
So our topic tonight, guys, ummichael did a sermon on, uh, the
book of judges in particulardeborah.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
A couple weeks ago that was mother's day, right,
yeah, um yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
I wasn't here, but I heard about it it was pretty
good, and so some of the thingsthat he he, you know said in his
sermon really struck with meand I thought, you know, I think
there's a little bit more hereum to look into, look into and
to talk about.
So I thought, oh, that'd be agood topic, um, and I kind of
wanted to start diving into someof these.
You know these people's livesand you know, and how their
lives can still affect us today.

(06:56):
See what we can learn from them.
Um.
So, of course, um, deborah isin the book of judges.
Judges, which is the seventhbook in the bible.
So it's it's in the earlyperiod and it comes right after
joshua, um, so if you knowanything about joshua, he is
called upon to uh, be a greatmilitary leader, and he is.

(07:19):
His job is basically tocompletely destroy the
Canaanites and take back theHoly Land.
So I believe he's only one oftwo people to go from Egypt,
cross over into the PromisedLand to begin this crusade, to

(07:43):
bring the land back to God'speople.
And that's exactly what he does.
I mean I forget how many kingshe conquers at least 20 kings,
or so.
I mean he just wipes them allout and he takes back over the
Holy Land, and Canaan is Israel.

(08:04):
Yeah, over the holy land andcanaan is, is, is israel.
Yeah, so, um, so they're takingback israel from all these
other people.
Uh, unfortunately, after joshuais victorious, the people of
israel, um, take it for grantedand they get lazy.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Surprise, Surprise surprise.

Speaker 2 (08:28):
So, yeah, they get lazy, they start worshiping
other gods, other things, theyget themselves in all kinds of
trouble, and so God is thengoing to start judging those
people again and placing them insituations to bring them back
into the fold, and this issomething God will have to do

(08:48):
time and time and time again.
Which is the main point of thebook of Judges, is in the book
of Judges, and I think this, thebook of Judges, spans a period
of about 325 years, which Ithink is interesting, because
think of our nation will be 250years next year.
So we haven't even reached youknow that span of time.

(09:16):
So I always think that'sinteresting and you can.
There's a lot of things you canlook into there, a lot of
things you can look into there.
So what God is going to do inthis case, he's going to send 12
judges to, over a span of those325 years, to bring his people
back each time that they goastray, and God he will.

(09:42):
And God he commits them tobasically slavery, like he hands
his own people over to theseother kings and does these
things to try and shake them.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Prove a point.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Prove a point.
Yeah, and each time he does thesame thing, he'll sell his
people, hand them over to thisking.
They'll come back, they'lllisten, they'll do what they
need to do.
Then they fall out again, sohe'll sell them to a different
king, vice versa.
So the Israelites are alwaysunder the thumb of a different
ruler over the span of 325 yearsruler over the span of 325

(10:24):
years.
Okay, and so he keeps sendingall these judges or saviors in
to you know, release them again,to free them, to bring them
back into his fold, and eachtime it's almost the same result
.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now was Sisera one of those.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yes, and Sisera is the one that Deborah is going to
confront.
Yes, yes, and Sisera is the onethat Deborah is going to
confront.
Yes, she will be.
I believe she is the third.
Let me get over there.
Yeah, I think she is the third.

Speaker 1 (10:58):
The third judge?
Yeah, I believe so.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
The third period Okay .

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and I got a little bit.
I dug up a little bit aboutDeborah.
She is one of the mostinfluential women in the Bible.
She's a prophet and a judge andshe is the only one, other than
Samuel and perhaps Moses, thatcan claim that title.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Really.
So she's up there yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Yeah, yeah, Especially for being a woman.
Uh, that says a lot.
Um, her story is only in thebook of judges.
You won't, I don't believeyou'll find her anywhere else.
Um, some people think she was awife.
Some people think that, uh,that was just when they call her
wife.
It was just a term for beingthe mother of her people.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
Oh OK.

Speaker 2 (11:48):
So they're not too sure on that.
Deborah in Hebrew means bee,like a bumblebee, because they
believe this.
Just as bees follow theirleader in a swarm, the Jewish
people follow the sages andprophets to teach them, and also
a bee sting can be quitepainful painful, but also to
bees honey is sweet.

(12:08):
So it's that combination ofpower and benevolence, or just,
you know, benevolence, thatmakes makes that combination for
for how she is going to rule.
So yeah, she's a judge, she's awarrior, she's a poet, a
prophet and a singer and asongwriter man.
So she's got quite the resume.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
I was about to say yeah, good resume.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Um, and she's described as uh, she has, it's
the tree of deborah, which is apalm tree and she's always
sitting under this tree and Ioften wonder like, okay, how did
she get?
How did she get that title?
You got the israelites, who youknow they're not following the
line, they're not doing whatthey're supposed to be doing.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
So she probably just sat down one day and was like
I'm tired.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah, I'm done, I'm tired of this, yeah yeah, so I'm
just gonna stay here and yeahmaybe um, but it.
It is a rare thing to where awoman gains power.

Speaker 1 (13:08):
Especially during that time.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
And this would happen in Egypt.
You know there would be a fewfemale pharaohs.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Interestingly enough, the Egyptians at some point
would try to erase all record oftheir women prophets because
they were embarrassed by it.
Because almost the same thinghappens like the egyptians lose
so much of their power andprestige in the world that a
woman has to come in to takeover.
Yeah, imagine that and so.

(13:36):
But then when they build backup and the men start to become
kings again and kind, of take,take over.
It's like they tried to erasethat part of the history from
the books, so that's kind ofinteresting um so then, like
cleopatra, why wasn't herserased?
You know what I mean?
Yeah, well, it's just peoplemost people don't realize that
she wasn't egyptian, she was agreek, oh yeah yeah, there we go

(13:59):
.

Speaker 1 (13:59):
Yeah, learn something new.

Speaker 2 (14:00):
So yeah, I don't know um watch a history channel I do
, but it's been a while so.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
I guess I don't actively right now.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
So, yeah, so she would sit on it and sometimes I
think, okay, she becomes who shebecomes due to the fact that
not only does she have a strongcommitment to God, but for some
reason people are drawn to herand when it's time for them to
start complaining and whiningand saying please help us, For

(14:35):
some reason, she's the motherthat you know is willing, is
more or less willing, to starttaking care of her people when
the probably the strong menaren't coming forward.
Yeah, they're not doing theirjobs, so I'm thinking like well,
maybe that's why she she getsto.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Yeah, I can see that.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah.
So of course, what's going tohappen in that third period is,
once again, the Lord.
He's going to sell theIsraelites into bondage once
again, and he sells them to KingJabin J-A-B-I-N.

(15:14):
So he was the king of Canaanand the commander of his army
was Cicero.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
And it's deborah.
Um who?
What will she say she willfinally give the command to?
I believe it's barack yes andshe will tell him go, take with
you 10 000 men of naphtali andzebulon and lead the way to
Mount Tabor.
I will lure Cicera, thecommander of Jovian's army, with

(15:51):
his chariots and his troops tothe quichon river and give him
into your hands.
Now, this is where and thisthis is very telling for what I
just said brock says well, ifyou go with me, I'll go, but if
you don't go with me, I ain'tgoing do you know what this
reminds me of?

Speaker 1 (16:08):
mulan, you know?
Okay have you watched it?

Speaker 2 (16:13):
it's been a long time .

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Yeah, so, and not in all aspects, because Mulan
starts out with I think it's,you know, chinese, like culture,
and someone their army wascoming to make dad go off to war
and she didn't want.
I think he just wasn't all likephysically well, so she cuts

(16:35):
off her hair and then goes towar and but it just like
reminded me of I don't know forsome reason.
Yeah, because it, I it.
It had like the 10 000 men andthen 10 000 um, so it just kind
of reminded me, even though it'snot all the same so it's
interesting, though, a lot ofthese old stories yeah they kind
of do intertwine when you'relooking at uh egyptian history

(16:58):
or the babylonians or the greeksand rome's.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
It's like they'll have very similar stories, yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:04):
So you wonder, do they all take.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
You know, tip the hat to deborah right and all these
things come back yeah, yeahthat's interesting.

Speaker 1 (17:11):
But yeah, you're right um so sorry he was like
basically, only if you go withme yeah, he's just basically
like well, yeah, I'll go if youhold my hand.

Speaker 2 (17:19):
Yes, yes, you know but I ain't going by myself, I
just you know so.
He has no confidence whatsoeverin himself, his people or god.

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Yeah, so it's all on her and she's like all right,
fine, she's all right, and andand she could have.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
She could have been the type of person to be like no
, I'm the leader, you're goingget the job done.
She of person to be like no,I'm the leader You're going Get
the job done.
She was willing to be humbleand say okay, yes.
You know I'll go.
I'll be a warrior too, I'm notjust going to sit back.

Speaker 1 (17:47):
But she warns him.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
But yeah, and what does she?
Do you remember?

Speaker 1 (17:51):
what she tells him, basically, that a woman will
take all credit.
And guys don't like that, youknow, and um, but I'm, sure he
had no idea what she meant andmaybe he thought and maybe she
didn't know, maybe she didn'teven she didn't know yeah, but
maybe he just thought oh, you'respeaking to yourself to
yourself you'll get all thecredit.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
And he probably thought, well, I'm fine with
that right as long as I comeback alive, I don't care yeah
that wasn't the case, thoughyeah, um, and and it's so cool
because, um, what they'll do isthey start out from north of
jerusalem and they go across thejordan river and they started
on a hill right, well, they goall the way up oh, okay, they go

(18:29):
up the mountain which is mounttaver, and they go all the way
up and it's like they swingaround when they're at the top
of the mountain the mountain.
So they're at the top, and sotheir backs are to the Sea of
Galilee.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
And it's when you know Cicero, he's got all these
chariots, you know all these men, but guess what?
They got?
To go uphill.

Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
And if anybody knows anything about military strategy
, you do not want to be the oneat the bottom of the hill having
to attack the top of the hill.
Yeah, and you got to wonder sheknew what she was doing?
She knew she was outnumbered?

Speaker 1 (19:06):
Right.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
And his forces were much greater.
But she knew, standing on topof that mountain she would have
all the advantage.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Not only the physical .
Only you know, not only likethe physical, I don't know just
your physical, like health goingup incline.
That's obviously a disadvantage.
But also, with them on top,they can see everything, they
know when they're coming.
Yeah, they can look straightdown on you with a better.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
yeah, yeah, they know what direction they're coming
from.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Yeah, I mean, imagine all the horses trying to get up
the mountain, and if it's muddy, them cherries ain't doing you
much good.
Yeah, no yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:42):
No yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
It's probably muddy and rocky?

Speaker 3 (19:45):
No yeah, Maybe a few trees oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:48):
Yeah, can you imagine , right, I mean I the heights of
Mount Tabor, but I'm sure itwas pretty significant Even so,
you know.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
Well, do you know what a mountain has to be to be
considered a mountain?
That's a great question.
I feel like it's like 2,000feet or more, because I've gone
to Pikes Peak and it was like14,138.
Maybe I don't know, but I thinkwhenever Did you go in no
summertime or wintertime?

Speaker 3 (20:16):
It was summer, but Was there snow on the mountain?

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yeah, so when we started at the bottom I had a
short sleeve Been there, donethat Pants.
I had some pants and then, onceI grew up top, I'm like whoo
whoo whoo Yep, Been there, donethat.
How many feet is considered amountain?
Oh, however, a common guidelineis that a mountain rises at

(20:41):
least 1,000 feet or more aboveits surrounding area.
I will say there is an app thatyou can use.
I think it's called AllTrailsand they have certain trails
around here, like trailseverywhere, but I did one in
Tappan and it's like in thetappan park, and it said I think

(21:03):
my elevation was like 1 312feet at one point oh, you was on
a mountain apparently, but weconsider that like it's a hill,
a hill right you know yeah, soyeah there's mountains in West
Virginia, yeah, and in Virginia.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah, but yeah, yeah, soyeah, going uphill with your

(21:24):
horse on that.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
Well, and they got it says here that he had Cicero,
had 900 iron chariots and ofcourse all the men.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
So you get two men per chariot.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah, usually.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
Two horses, so that's a lot of weight to be pulling
up there.
Plus, you got all your armament.
You got all your arrows, yourbows, your lances, all your
rations.
Yeah, all that paraphernalia,yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
You're toting a your rations.
Yeah, all that paraphernalia.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
Yeah, You're toting a pile of weight.
Yeah, you know you talk aboutthat.
You know you think about a lotof the hills during the Civil
War.
99% of the time, the personthat was on the top of the hill
won the skirmisher battle.

Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, that was everything I mean.
To hold the ridge, you know, tohold the high ground, so
Deborah knew what she was doing.
Yeah, this is nothing new, Imean yeah.
Yeah, so she knew exactly whereto place herself in that army.
Because I think it says sheonly had like 10,000.
So yeah, there was 10,000 menthat followed Barack and Deborah

(22:41):
.

Speaker 1 (22:41):
So yeah, Did she have ?

Speaker 3 (22:41):
any chariots.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
It doesn't say.
I don't think it says, I thinkit just says men.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Yeah, I didn't read anything about.

Speaker 3 (22:47):
Well, that was her advantage too.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Right, yeah, she didn't have to travel.
Yeah, they traveled light, theydidn't have to worry about.
That's true, yeah yeah, theyonly had to feed themselves.
I mean because if you're, ifyou're feeding the horse one
horse per day, I forget how manygallons of water I was about to
say, though, just the amount ofwater it's a lot per horse and
and hay and fodder and uh-huhit's a lot of you know, yeah you

(23:14):
got like the tools again yougotta, you gotta be you gotta be
carrying all that with you

Speaker 3 (23:18):
you're right because them horses go you're done.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
That's another thing.
You're done, yeah, especiallyif you've only ever you better
have two pair of sandals.

Speaker 3 (23:26):
Yeah, yeah, borrow the horseshoes off yeah, you're
gonna, you're gonna be, you'reto be hoofing it, hoofing it.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Beth is not coming.
She's just now leaving work.

Speaker 3 (23:43):
What time is it?

Speaker 1 (23:45):
6.25.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Oh Well, that's you know.
It is kind of foolish for herto drive out here.

Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yeah, and she seems kind of flustered at her job
right now.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
Yeah, she's having a rough time with it for some
reason.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Well, because everyone's short-staffed, and I
think she's getting that too.

Speaker 3 (24:03):
Oh yes.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
It's a problem everywhere.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
You haven't heard the latest, have you?

Speaker 1 (24:09):
With her, or you, no me.

Speaker 3 (24:10):
Huh, I go down to get my check Thursday and I get
laid off.
What, yeah?
I go down to get my checkThursday and I get laid off.
What, yeah, really yeah, youdon't have any work.
Does that happen a lot?

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Not really Really.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
But have you tried to sign up for unemployment?

Speaker 2 (24:29):
lately.
No, I bet that's funny.

Speaker 3 (24:31):
Oh, my word.
But I will say Sometimes Jesuswill go out the door leave me.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Well, I had to sign up for it during COVID and that
was a disaster.
I did it one time in my life,yeah, and it was very short
period.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
But, yeah, being on the phone just waiting on them
people.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Well, it took me a day, almost two days being on
hold, and you got to do certainthings every week.

Speaker 3 (25:13):
And it wasn't so bad.
But I finally get to where Ican start filling out the, and I
fill it all out.
Come down, push the button,continue.
It comes up up.
My social security number isnot right.
Oh, I went ballistic and so I,so I get on the phone.

(25:33):
Well, we'll call you back in80-some minutes, okay.

Speaker 1 (25:40):
Never trust that.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
Never, never they never, call back.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
If you'd like a call back, press 1.
Nope.

Speaker 3 (25:46):
Call again, I call again.
Oh, they go through this wholerigmarole.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
Mm-hmm yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
And then I call again .
Oh, it'll be 20, 26 minutes, somy wife sets a timer on that.
As soon as the 26 minutes is up, I want to phone again.
Well, by that time they wereclosed.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
So I finally, at about quarter after eight
Tuesday morning, I get some thewait time is 10 minutes.
You can push the number andwe'll call you back, or you can
stay on the line with push this.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Stay on the line.

Speaker 3 (26:36):
So the lady that I talked to talked to.
I mean, she was very, veryhelpful, and what really really
messed me up was we changedemails and the email that they
had on file yeah was differentthan the one that I put in.
Oh, it was old email, so, butwe got everything straight.

(27:00):
The only thing is I had to sendthem a proof of.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
Like residency where?

Speaker 3 (27:07):
you live.
I sent them my W-2 and I had tosend them a photocopy of my
license Because they knew it.
Because she says, do you stillhave your Class A?
I said, yeah, so I mean, butanyway, it's all handled now.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
I can't remember what I had to do that for Were you
doing something?
I had to send two forms of.

Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, hopefully Do you have a passport.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
That's what I was about to say.
Maybe it was my passport.
I think it was, yeah.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
I've never had a passport Mine's expired, is it
yeah?

Speaker 1 (27:49):
My friend.
You know how they have thepassport books.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
It's like a card.
Well, now it can be right onyour license, can it not?

Speaker 1 (27:57):
I think so no no, I don't, I don't think so well,
the reason I know about this isbecause she lost her id, like
last I don't know june, andshe's like, well, I, I have my
passport card so that it is avalid id and and I'm like, you
have a card for it, like, andit's not her license, I don't
know.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Did you have a book?

Speaker 1 (28:19):
Mine's a book.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
And when you go into country they stamp the book.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, that was pretty neat yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:32):
It's like when we went from Germany to
Czechoslovakia.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
They had to stop at a checkpoint.
Give you the evil eyes.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
They stamp it yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:42):
That's like going on a military base.
So even like when I go with myson, I get to show my driver's
license.

Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, Well, it's good they don't take any chances,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, it's good they don't takeany chances, yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yeah, yeah, I think I have heard that for all the
military bases.
Right yeah, mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (29:07):
Well, some of them Now.
Like when he was stationed inGeorgia, I went down there.
When I left here to go downthere, it was, like I'll say, 5
o'clock and I didn't get downhere until like 2, 3 o'clock in
the morning and I just drovearound around her house.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
So it might not, they might not have like 24 hours.

Speaker 3 (29:31):
But the police was kind of watching Gotcha yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:41):
Anyway, back to the subject, back to I got messed up
.
Yeah.
So, deb, she's up on, uh, mounttabor and uh, she's the one
that gives the order to barack.
She says go, this is the daythe lord has given cesara into
your hands.
Has not the lord gone ahead ofyou?
So it's almost like she'ssaying that, like to give him
confidence like you know, justjust trust in the process yes
we're going downhill and don'tthink the lord's leading the way

(30:04):
, so just yeah, right, uh.
So barack went down mount tabor,followed by 10 000 men.
At barack's advance, the lordrouted cesara and all his
chariots and army by the sword,and Cicera abandoned his chariot
and fled on foot.

Speaker 1 (30:20):
Not to mention his chariot, the whole entire
brigade basically, right Um andit seems like Brock does a
pretty good job.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
He pursues the chariots, the army uh, I can't
even pronounce uh HorashethHagowim, but he pursues him all
the way.
All the troops of Caesarea fellby the sword.
Not a man was left.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
So it is a clear-cut 100% victory Right now, right
Caesarea.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yeah, caesarea, he's still out there 99.9999%, he's
still out there.
Of course he just had to make arun.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, noticera, okay, he's still out there.
99.9999%, he's still out there.
Of course, he just had to makea run.
Yeah, not a man left.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Cicera, however, fled on foot to the tent of.
Can you pronounce her?

Speaker 1 (31:05):
name Jael.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Jael, there you go the wife of Heber the Kenite,
because there were friendlyrelations between the Jobian
king of Hazor and the clan ofHeber the Kenite.
Now relations between the jobbeing king of hazor and the clan
of haber the canine.
Now that's another thing too.
About the israelites is whatthey start doing.
They start worshiping other godsand they start intermarriage
which god does not approve of aswell so, um, so you got a lot

(31:28):
of people that know each otheron different sides of the fence
there.
So jael went out to meet cesaraand said to him come my lord,
come right in, don't be afraid.
And of course he knows thesepeople, so he doesn't have any
fear, he doesn't thinkanything's up.
So he enters her tent and shecovers him up and he says I'm

(31:50):
thirsty, please give me somewater.
So she opened up a skin of milk, gave him the drink and covered
him up again.
And so then he tells her tostand in the doorway of the tent
and if someone comes by andasks about me or is anyone here,
you say no.
So Jael has other plans.
She is loyal to the Israelitesand to God.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
So I don't know if he falls asleep, I don't know what
the situation is.
That's what I was getting at,but she is skillful enough that
she picks up a tent peg and ahammer, and went quietly to him
while he lay fast asleep,exhausted.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
Was he a vampire?

Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yes, this is the first, first chronicled event of
vampires.
But then now she drove the pegthrough his temple into the
ground.
And now he's dead, and he died,so he must have been laying on
the ground, maybe head on apillow, and he drove it straight
through his temple into theground.

(32:51):
So that's pretty.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
You know what, michael, if you're listening, I
feel like you should have putJael in your message.
You know like this strong woman.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
She don't take nothing from anybody.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
Don't make her mad, no, and to send her through on
one strike.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:10):
Yeah, so.
So Brock comes in pursuit ofCicera and Jael went out to meet
him and of course she's goingto reveal uh cesara to him.
Um, and so barack walks inthere and there's cesara with
his, you know, head to theground.
Uh with the, uh with the tentpeg it was on that day that God

(33:36):
subdued Jabin, the Canaaniteking, before the Israelites, and
of course, the Israelites onceagain grew stronger and, for the
moment, take back their, takeback God's kingdom.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Did you read anything about them singing the song of
Deborah afterwards?

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah, so that's in Judges 5.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
So she actually writes a song about the whole
experience.
So, okay, so she was the onewho wrote it, yeah, and they say
this is in the 12th century BCand it may be one of the
earliest examples of Hebrewpoetry or song.
So, yeah, so it's a one of them.
I think I highlighted one, apart of the prose, and it says

(34:23):
in the days of shamgar, son ofaneth, in the days of jael, the
roads were abandoned, travelerslooked to winding paths, village
life in israel ceased.
So it does.
You can get a sense from thatthat she did take on that

(35:01):
motherly role yes, when you know, these people clearly were not
going to take care of themselves, had no sense of leadership
whatsoever right and, forwhatever reason, the men just
were not going to step up andget the job done.
So, yeah, that says a lot abouther.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
The way I look at them during that time period is
like the generational traumathing where they're like, oh
well, I come from this.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
It just seems like nothing ever changes.
I know we're still doing that,yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Like how we talk about, how people come from
nothing and people think.
People think, well, there's nohope for me, because you know my
parents were this way well that, if anything, that should make
you want to be better right likethat's the way I'm looking at
it.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
You know what I mean.
You have to change your ownlife.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, nobody's gonna do it for you or people is
always whining and complaininginstead of instead of doing
something.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Yeah, it was me, you know you don.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
You don't want to put forth the effort, yeah, and all
you want to do is you're notreally following God.
You're not praising God, right,but you want to blame God
because your life isn't whereyou want it to be you can't
understand why he doesn't evercome into your life and make it
better.
So if all you're ever doing ispointing your finger at God,
that's not a relationship.

(36:16):
That's not a healthyrelationship to be in.

Speaker 1 (36:20):
Like Michael says, like if you're not tithing
correctly, you're not under the.
What is it?
You would know what I'm talkingabout.
You're not under the full, likeFull covenant yeah.
Yeah, yeah, you're not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Right, well, you're being half, if you're, if you're
always being half hearted,which I wrote down, some
questions and thoughts, but yeahif you're always being half
hearted in your relationshipwith God, that's what you're
going to get in return.
He's not going to abandon you.
Your life might be okay.
You're not.
It's not that he would ever saya term for me before.

(37:03):
I never knew you.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
But think about how much better your life could be
and how.
Not that we're looking foradvantages to having a
relationship with God, but justthink about the fruits that can
come from a better relationshipwith him.
As to just, you're only part ofthe relationship.
When you want to be, whenyou're looking out for yourself,
yep, which is kind of what theisraelites are doing all right

(37:25):
yeah, they get everything theywant.
They get all set back up againand then and they get lacks of
days and just kind of it's likewhen you do have a, do my own
thing.
It's like when you have a sonthat just can't get it together
and you send him out into theworld and all of a sudden he
blows all his money and he makesyou know his landlord upset and
loses his job.

(37:46):
What's he do?
He wants to come back home,live with mom and dad.
So mom and dad and their lovinghearts take him back in, get
them all built up again.
Yeah, finally they push him out, he gets another job, does the
same thing, come on back again,again, and you see that all the
time oh yeah, people are youknow this again, this is human.
Nature has not changed.
And no, since the beginning oftime, people are people and

(38:07):
unfortunately, uh, that willprobably never change, but
fortunately, god will neverchange right and as he shows and
judges.
it doesn't matter how many timesthe Israelites screw up and no
matter how many times he sellsthem into bondage and finds a
new ruler for him.
He's like okay, well, you don'twant to serve under me, so okay

(38:30):
.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
If you think I'm so bad.

Speaker 1 (38:33):
Yeah, watch this.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Try this guy out for a little while, see how it goes
and when you're ready, I'll beready, yeah, when you come back.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
Anytime, I'll be ready to love you again.

Speaker 3 (38:42):
It's kind of like changing jobs every two or three
weeks or every two or threeyears.
You know I don't like this jobnow, so you know, okay, well,
that sounds pretty good, sowe'll go over and do that one.
Then you know you're there fortwo or three weeks or two or
three years, and it's the samething.
You know you, you've got to.

Speaker 2 (39:02):
You've got to make it .
What you want to make, yeah,and I can tell you is in being
in management.
If somebody comes to me and Ilook at the resume and they've
got five or six jobs in the lasttwo years oh yeah, I'm setting
that aside.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Yeah, I'm not even looking at it.
Yeah, because you, you know,you know for a fact that they're
not going to yeah, you knowthey're going to do the same
thing to you.

Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely you can tell their
work.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
ethic is not A temporary fix.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:26):
They're not mature.
That's exactly what they'relooking for, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
Yep, just until they can get enough money again to
get by for a while.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:34):
Do this?

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Yeah, and I like the last line of her song.
She says so may all yourenemies perish, but may they who
love you, meaning God, be likethe sun when it rises in its
strength.
And it says the land had peacefor 40 years.
So for 40 years they were good,they were good.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
And then the fourth period would come along, and
then the fourth judge comesalong, it'll start all over
again.
Yeah, then the fourth periodwould come along, and then the
fourth judge comes along, it'llstart all over again, which is a
completely different story.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah, yeah, so Debra, that's a pretty cool story, I
think.
I think she deserves you know.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
She deserves this podcast.
Yeah, she got a pretty goodresume yeah.
You know I'd hire her.
Yeah, exactly, I would hire heranytime LinkedIn, she'll take
the initiative.
I'm thinking of Yelp.
We Yelp reviewed Jesus, I think, last week or the week before.

(40:31):
Now we're Yelp reviewing DebDebra little Debbie we forgot
our little Debbie's.

Speaker 2 (40:40):
I was at Menards and they had the strawberry
shortcake rolls on the shelf, soI snuck one in the cart.
My wife's like all right.

Speaker 3 (40:46):
So I took a picture of it and sent it to Michael.

Speaker 2 (40:49):
Those are so good, I know so I ate one as soon as I
got to the car.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yeah.
The bottom, so I'm walking intoWalmart eating strawberry rolls
, mar them.
So I'm walking into Walmarteating strawberry rolls.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
Margie's like what are you doing?
I'm good, I had to try it.
You know what my favorite isabout that?
Like getting all of it off ofthat.

Speaker 2 (41:05):
The cardboard piece, the paper, yeah, Sometimes it's
fun to try to just peel it.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
Peel it back, unroll it, unroll it.

Speaker 1 (41:15):
Yeah, I like just taking my teeth to it.
It's soft, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, I could eat that whole box in one sitting.

Speaker 3 (41:24):
Yeah, it's dangerous, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:26):
They're good.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, do you have any questions?

Speaker 2 (41:30):
All right, so yeah, so I got some thoughts,
questions.
I'll just shoot them out thereand you guys can answer them.
Okay, you guys can answer them.
Or you know?
Uh, okay, so can you live aproductive life, living with
partial sin?
Is it up to us to decide whensin is tolerable and when it is
time to repent?

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Okay, so let's take the first part of it and digest
that.
What was the first part Are?

Speaker 2 (42:03):
you listening to me, can you?
You?
Can you live a productive life,living with partial sin?

Speaker 1 (42:06):
no, I feel like that would be me kind of talking
about the like being under hisgrace, umbrella thing, like if
you're not living.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
The question boils down to is can you look at your
life and say I've got my sinunder control?
I know what my weaknesses areand I've got it under control,
so therefore it'll be all right,yeah, but you don't have it
under control if you're stilldoing it, right?

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Right.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
Yeah, Right, but you can have the viewpoint of yeah,
you know, I don't you know Idon't got that straight now.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
But you know I don't, you know I don't got that
straight now, but you know whatI got everything else going for
me.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
So but I'm a good person, I'll just.
I'll just live with that oneand never work on it?

Speaker 2 (42:45):
can you, can you expect to live a productive life
and have a good relationshipwith god if you have that
mindset?

Speaker 1 (42:51):
you shouldn't no, I don't think so I feel like if
your heart is where it needs tobe with jesus, then you
shouldn't feel right about that,right yeah?

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Okay, so then it is not up to us to decide when sin
is tolerable, correct or when itis time to repent, so we should
be always looking to.
God for the word for thatguidance, not saying, well, I,
I'll get to it, I'll get to itsomeday you know when I, when I
feel like I'm ready to give thatup, yeah, I'll do it.

(43:27):
No, because it's never, that'snever gonna.
And I guess the main point ofthat is, if you expect it to
ever get better with thatattitude, like it'll go away on
its own, like I'll outgrow it,you know it'll be okay, I don't
think you can ever expect to getrid of it.
I think without god's wordyou're, it will be part of you

(43:49):
for the rest of your life?
I don't think you'll ever have achance to overcome.
Overcome that, and I thinkthat's what the israelites were
doing, in a sense, like yeah, welove God, we're his people,
we're his chosen people.
So therefore, well, we, we can,we can let loose, we can do
what we want to do, because weknow he still, we know we know

(44:10):
he's down.

Speaker 1 (44:10):
He still loves us.
Yeah, because we're the chosenpeople and sometimes that's what
these young people do.
Chosen one yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
I know I can go and do this, that because mom and
dad still love me and they'lltake me back.
They'll take me exactly yeah,so you live on the edge all the
time because you just you.
You know you're takingadvantage of god's love and
that's something you, you can'tdo.
No, yeah, and you know, andthat's not what devra's doing,
that's not what she's trying toteach.
No, not at all uh, what are thesigns of decline in a person who

(44:40):
is clinging to bad habits andnot giving their life and
purpose to God?

Speaker 1 (44:48):
what are some signs?

Speaker 3 (44:51):
if they do come and meet and meet the Lord, but then
they start just kind of slowlybackslide.
They're not continuallychoosing to be in His presence,

(45:14):
they want to be in the worldlypresence and have fun.
But you can have fun in theworldly presence you know and
have fun, you know, yeah, butyou know you can have fun in the
Lord you know, I mean we havevolleyball games, we have a lot
of you know, we have bonfires,you know.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
This Dodgeball Sid yeah dodgeball.

Speaker 3 (45:35):
Yeah, I never did hear how was the dodgeball it
was good, brutal.

Speaker 2 (45:40):
I only played one game, but it was, yeah, brutal.

Speaker 3 (45:45):
A lot of people here.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
Yeah, Pretty decent, yeah.
So the Methodist church, thatpastor, he's got what three now
that he's got Midville?

Speaker 3 (45:55):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Newport and Yerkesville, but they brought
their youth group and they hadsome strong boys on there yeah,
they had some big boys.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
It's all farm country , so you know, how them farm
boys are.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Oh yeah, I mean I pulled in and I'm like who's got
these F-350s out here?
I mean, I think there was Atleast one of them was an F-350.

Speaker 3 (46:16):
Yeah, well, that's good.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
yeah, it's good, you know this took one right in the
face and sitting in the standsyeah, who did?

Speaker 1 (46:22):
sis, she had her head down and then um steph
stephanie, her little son ohyeah to the face.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
I'm like, oh man, yeah, you gotta have your head
on a swivel, even if you'resitting, yeah, on the sideline,
yeah yeah, everyone was likewhere's Cooper?

Speaker 1 (46:39):
I'm like, well, first off I think Michael said
strongly discouraged to bringthem, probably because they
might get hit.
And yeah, I was like he's fine,he can be with his grandma for
a few hours, that way I can befully present and playing in my
dodgeball game well, that's good.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, it's good to fellowship with other churches
and youth.
Yeah, and I'm sure most of itfrom the other churches were
youth, weren't they yeah?

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Yeah, and even like the pastor got up and played.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Oh did he.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
I don't know if he played the whole time, but he
played a lot.
He played a lot of the time.
Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, that's good.
That was a good turnout.
Yeah, should we ever expect tobecome comfortable in our
relationship with God and decidewe have nothing left to fulfill
His will?
Is it ever okay to be selfishand desire something not of the
will or the purpose of God?

Speaker 1 (47:43):
We should never be okay with that, because he can
always use you.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:51):
To any potential.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
I feel like if Michael was here, he would be
trying to be passing an old jokealong to the audience right now
.
That's what I was thinking.
Yeah, I'm like, insert old jokealong to the audience right now
.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
That's what I was thinking yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm
like insert old joke here, yeah.
So yeah, we should never feelthat we've got to an age where
you know we are beyond God'spurpose, or even the opposite.
Like never too young, Like I'mthinking the teenagers you know,
like even Mal, Like well, I'mtoo young, I don't have enough

(48:20):
you know enough experience orsomething.
Never too young, you're nevertoo young, never too old.
It's always the right time ohyeah, well, there was a.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
I'm glad you said that because there was a quote
um, it's never the wrong time todo the right thing I like that
who's quotes it?

Speaker 1 (48:41):
like that bros that was in.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
I was reading articles about her and it was uh
, it was.
I can't remember where I foundit, but I just wrote it down.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Oh, that's pretty good I think I saw something
about that when I was reading upon her, not exactly those,
those words, but kind of it wasbasically stating, like you know
, she was taking all oddsbecause she was a woman who was
in leadership.
That never happened, let alonegoing into battle, and you know,
like that also never happened.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
So yeah, yeah, when you think about it, the gravity
of the situation and everythingthat she took was willing to
take on, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
She had some guts.
So many people ask if God isreal, why does he allow all this
suffering?
Why does he allow all thissuffering?
Is it possible God is stillusing the example in Judges to
bring us closer to him and yetwe are still choosing our own

(49:50):
way?
So if you look at what'shappening in Judges, you can
look to okay, you know, againthe Israelites are.
They get to the point wherethey're like, oh god, save us.
You know we're sick and we'rehungry and we're out of sorts,
and you know we're, we're introuble, we're in danger, we've
been taken over, we're allslaves you know, please help us

(50:14):
yeah, I don't, I mean so is.
could it be, could it be still,that part of why we have so much
suffering in the world isbecause we have not learned?

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah, nobody wants to submit.

Speaker 2 (50:28):
Yeah, you don't want to submit to the Lord If we do
when so much of the world willnot submit to his word, then the
effect of that is going to bethat there is going to be pain
and suffering in the world?

Speaker 1 (50:40):
There's no way around it.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
When you have so many people outside the will of God,
chaos is going to reign.

Speaker 1 (50:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
And of course the enemy only uses that all the
greater to cause that.
So that was the first time Iwas.
You know, because you hearpeople say that all the time.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
All the time.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
If you could list the top five defenses for somebody
who doesn't believe in God, I'dsay that's the top three.
It's on there every time.

Speaker 1 (51:05):
And I like to like someone I kind of brought not
that, not that it was a vaguedescription of that about what
was going on in my life and waslike I just don't understand.
Like it happens all the timeit's every few months, every few
years like it and she's likewell, it's not his will, but he
turns in all things too good tomake it his plan.

(51:28):
You know, like all of this stuffactually isn't all of his doing
, you know what I mean, but heis going to turn it all for good
, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
But he is going to turn it all for good yeah.
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, sometimes I look atyou're not under the will of
God.

Speaker 3 (51:43):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
So he's more or less he's giving you, he's putting
you in the driver's seat, so tospeak.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
And controlling events.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Yes, that normally would.

Speaker 2 (51:59):
If you were under the will of God, those things would
not take place.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
But because you're living that way and you refuse
to even give it a go.
Yeah, that's, true you just youknow you can't help it.
Just the sin and the chaos ofthe world is a direct result of
that and he's going to use allthat again, as he does time and
time again in Judges.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
He's like okay.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
Well, you know I've done this before.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
Let's do it again, forty years later.
Forty years later, here we goagain.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
Who do I got left that I can?

Speaker 1 (52:30):
hand you over to.

Speaker 3 (52:33):
He's doing the same thing and hoping for a different
result.
The result is the same.
That's the definition ofinsanity.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
Yes, yes, he loves people that much yeah he
definitely had patience, yeahlove and patience.
They're his people.
That's the thing.
He makes it clear that they'rehis people and he's never going
to let them get to the point tocomplete extinction.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Right.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
You know, but he'll let him sit and just just the
right amount of suffering andpleading to where?

Speaker 1 (53:04):
yeah, where, yeah, he's like, okay, you know you'll
come begging.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
You'll do.
You'll do what you're supposedto do so yeah yeah, that's right
.
Um, oh, here's an interestingone.
How important is it to havepersonal conviction?
Is it necessary to have oursins pointed out to us by a

(53:29):
higher authority?
So, if you think about deborah,yeah you know those, without
those, people would justcontinue to have to have a
higher authority whether it beyour pastor, whether it be just

(54:03):
somebody you know that has Lord,the Lord, in their life and
wants to.
You know um.

Speaker 1 (54:10):
I think it is important, because then I think
you would almost get big headedor um, like if you didn't have
it, you would almost let thingsslide more, or not being held
accountable.
Yes, yeah, like you don't havean accountability partner in a
way.
I know that's not what it is,you know, but yeah well, it, it

(54:33):
is, it is it is in a sense, yeah, in a sense that it is, you
know, accountability partner youknow, accountability partner.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Yeah, I mean, you need somebody to tell you.
Hey, maybe I back off just alittle bit on that.

Speaker 2 (54:48):
Or for somebody to say hey, I think that TV needs
to be a little higher, a littleto the left, a little to the
right, yeah, or it needs rehungyeah.

Speaker 3 (54:58):
I'm going to get rehung.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
With that cat right, that's a full wraparound, yeah.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah .

Speaker 2 (55:10):
Can you give an example of a time when you
decided to repent and God placedpeople in your life to help
lead the way?

Speaker 3 (55:19):
Hmm, I think when I got saved, you know he—.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Was there a certain person that kind of came along
and pushed that?

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Actually it was a CD.
I think— who was it?
Oh, shoot, it was someone thatwas at the church.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
Oh okay, who burned CDs a lot?

Speaker 3 (55:53):
No, they didn't burn CD, it was, it was a performer.
Oh okay, my wife had bought theCD.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Uh-huh.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
And I was doing dishes.

Speaker 1 (56:07):
So she had it on.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Well, no, she wasn't even home.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
Oh, okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
And I was listening to it.
But then I started coming tochurch and I got saved on Easter
Sunday.
I don't think you was ever overat high school, was he Mm-mm?
But yeah, we was at the highschool and we was over there for
a while and we was at the oldMethodist church beside the

(56:33):
police station for a while.

Speaker 1 (56:35):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
We was up on the corner where the-.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
The corner.
Yeah, the food pantry area.

Speaker 3 (56:40):
By the food pantry, and then we were out here.
So you figure out how manyyears that was and that's how
many years I've been saved.
You can ask your grandma.
Well, I don't know.
I don't think she startedcoming until she was out here,
yeah and then that was it was.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
It was later you'd ask your Aunt, marty yeah, yeah,
just saw her a minute well Ican say I know I'm glad when I
decided to return to church,that it was Florence.
Florence yeah it was therebecause Florence, yeah, it was
there because, yeah, that was amajor because I had a lot of
misgivings about myself, numberone, but also two, trusting

(57:31):
another person with what I hadgone through.

Speaker 1 (57:35):
Yeah, with your heart .

Speaker 2 (57:39):
With my heart, my testimony, all those things, and
she was just incredible.
Just the right, right place,right time.
Yeah, um yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:45):
God's time.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah so you know God's time.
So one more real quick, andthen I know we we got to go.
So how important is it that wegive God full credit for the
blessings and victories thatcome our way?
So of course Deborah gives fullcredit.
She's completely humble,doesn't brag.
She lets them all know that.
You know, we're only victoriousbecause of God.

Speaker 1 (58:08):
I think we need to, like all the time, show him all
the glory.

Speaker 3 (58:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:18):
Because if it wasn't for him, you would be.
You know, that job is not yours, that job is his.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
That he gave to you that he blessed you with.

Speaker 1 (58:23):
So even that, you know the 10% that you don't want
to give.
I'm just thinking tithing rightnow, I don't know, but you know
like it's yeah it's, it's his,because all of everything that
you have, you are blessed with.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
He gave to you.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Believe it or not.
A lot of people say, well, Iworked hard for this.
Yeah, you did.

Speaker 3 (58:41):
Yeah well, who gave you?
Who gave you?
Who gave you the job?
Yeah yeah, who gave you theknowledge?

Speaker 2 (58:45):
I always ask people like who do you work for?
Yeah, like well myself and wellmy wife.
I'm like right, like uh wellyeah, but no yeah, but no.
Your.
Your attitude always should beI work for the Lord, and
everything you do you handle asif you work for the Lord.

(59:07):
That's where your heart shouldalways be, because if you're
doing it for other people, or ahuman being or it's it's hard to
do.
You're in the wrong.
It's hard to do.
You're in the wrong, it's hardto do, it's a much easier, I
think, to say, yep, this iswhere I'm supposed to be, this
is the job I have to do rightnow.
Anything that I do, whetherit's a hardship, whether it's

(59:29):
something good that comes my way, I'm giving it all up to God.
It's, it's in God's timing andGod's will.
And you know, you have a muchbetter attitude about going
along with your work day.
Yes, when you're, when you giveit all to God and you're like,
yeah, I'm working for the Lord,like I do.
You know, my work ethicreflects my relationship with
him.
So when I'm feeling depressedabout a long work week or a long

(59:54):
work day or being in asituation, I'd rather not be
placed in it's, at that point wejust have to be.
You know, the Lord has madethis day.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
It's the Lord's day.

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
This is where he's placed me, and usually you can
go into a lot more.
You know strength and peace ofmind and get the job done and
feel good about it, because alot of times people aren't going
to thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
Oh no, you're not going to get a thank you for a
lot of times.
People aren't going to thankyou.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Oh no, you're not going to get a thank you for a
lot of things you do in life, no, and a lot of times you can
think, wow, I really deservecredit for that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
Yeah, nobody says anything, nobody even notices.
Right, that's what I'm about tosay.
You, no one even notices.
Yeah, but then if you bring itup, you're not being humble
that's right you know right,yeah, and usually doesn't get
you anywhere anyway, becausethen you're just bragging yeah,
that's just a sour taste, or thelast thing they want to do is
give you a raise.

Speaker 2 (01:00:42):
So you know it's much easier to give it up to the
Lord, and then I tend to thinkyou do receive blessings from
that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
I do too yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I got.
I do have.
I still have like four otherquestions that I wrote down, but
some of them might actually bea good topic in themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
So we are.
It's a seven o'clock hour, Ithink, right.
Yeah, a little over, so you gotto go, sid, so we can wrap her
up.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
All right, so I prayed last week.

Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Let's just take it this way Rob, switch it up, all
right.
So I prayed last week.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Let's just take it this way, rob Switch it up.
All right, you got it.
You got it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
We're going to be from the land down under where
the toilet goes the other way.
Heavenly Father, we do.
Thank you, lord, for this day.
Lord, we thank you for thispodcast, lord, we just ask you
to continue to bless thispodcast, lord, coming out of
this little church in Ericsville.
And, lord, just be with Bethand Don, lord, as they're not

(01:01:51):
here.
Lord, and be with PastorMichael as he's starting on
vacation, lord, and just blesshim, bless his family, lord, and
we just thank you for him, lord.
Lord, we just ask you to takeand just be with each person,
lord, that walks through ourdoors.
Just touch them, lord, and letthem feel your presence.

(01:02:13):
We just thank you and praiseyou and we give you all the
glory.
We just ask this all in Jesus'most precious name.
Amen.