Why People Leave the Church

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What drives people away from the churches they once called home? In this thought-provoking conversation, we dive deep into the complex reasons behind church departures - from self-centered expectations to legitimate concerns about teaching and community.

The discussion reveals how our approach to church attendance often reflects our spiritual priorities. When we enter sanctuaries seeking recognition or validation rather than connection with God, disappointment becomes inevitable. As one host observes, "If you're making yourself the center of attention instead of that attention going to God," church will never satisfy. This misalignment between expectations and purpose creates a cycle of church-hopping that leaves many spiritually unfulfilled.

We explore practical factors too - families seeking strong children's ministries, busy schedules competing with Sunday services, and the pain of church hurt. Each represents valid considerations that church communities must address with compassion. 

Whether you're a church leader seeking to understand attendance patterns, someone who has drifted from church, or a committed member wondering how to strengthen your community, this episode offers perspectives that transcend simple explanations and challenge us all to examine our motivations for gathering with fellow believers.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
okay okay all right all right.
Well, beth is not here with usnot feeling well this evening so
praying, praying, praying, mygoodness that's where we are
today ice cream ice creamalready

Speaker 5 (00:24):
it was because it actually blew me out for a
change.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
I know that thunderstorm woke me up last
night.
Oh, that's what I was trying totell.

Speaker 5 (00:32):
I've been telling everybody that they asked me
today.
They're like did you hear thatstorm last night?
And I was like no.

Speaker 1 (00:37):
I didn't hear it either, and then I got to work.
It was shaking our house.

Speaker 5 (00:45):
Yeah, that thunder and lightning was yeah.
Yeah, I get to work and peopleare talking about it and they
ask me and I'm like no, and I'mlike wait a minute.
You know what I think I did?
but I thought I was dreaming itbecause I had a dream that I was
in an accident and lost a leg,oh my.
And I was in the hospital, inthe hospital bed, and they're
trying to tell me to keep mystump up.
Like all these people around me, I'm in this really bright room

(01:09):
, but what I'm doing while I'min there is I'm counting the
seconds between the lightningand the thunder, so somehow that
storm must have creeped into mydream?
Yes, and so I thought I dreamedit.
That's crazy.
But people started talkingabout it so I was like, oh, it
really did, it really did start.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
It wasn't in your dream.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
You're reading way too many Civil War accidents.
Yes, oh, speaking of that,there's a.
I thought about you as soon asI saw it.
It's a two-foot Civil Warsoldier, a Union soldier.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
On auction yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:48):
Is it like a cement one?
Like a lawn ornament?

Speaker 2 (01:51):
It doesn't really say if it's cement.
It looks like it's cement whenOn auction?
Wallach auctions.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
Huh, because the only time I've ever seen one of them
is in the Smoky Mountains.
They have a business down therethat has a huge lot of just
lawn ornament and they have acivil war.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
They got it made.
Looks like it was two foot.
I'm pretty sure it was two foottall, that'd be sweet.

Speaker 5 (02:17):
Yeah, I want one of those, I think, next time we go
to Smoky Mountains, if I didn'tfind one sooner.
Getting it.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
We'll get on Wallach Auctions tonight.
Yes.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I can get on right now.

Speaker 5 (02:29):
Then all I'll need is a cannon and I'll be all set.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Well, you passed one of those up.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Didn't you have a cannon here?
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I can find anything you want.
You got a Union cap too.
Hmm, cappy, yeah, I can findanything you want, he got a
Union cap too.

Speaker 5 (02:53):
Kepi, yeah, kepi.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Kepi or Kappy.

Speaker 5 (02:56):
That's what the hats the soldiers wore in the Civil
War.
They called them Kepis.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Kepis, yeah, k-e-p-p-i, I think it was a.

Speaker 5 (03:02):
French term they were really into.
French things back then.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
So yeah, it wouldn't be an English term it could be.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Maybe that's where cap came from.

Speaker 5 (03:15):
Yeah, maybe Probably.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
They just shortened it.
Got tired of writing cap-y sothey just put C-E-P-C-A-P.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
That's what I'd do Us Americans.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, we want to make it easy.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (03:29):
Don't want to make it too hard for anyone.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
We don't know if that's accurate or not.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Sounded good though.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
It's not like we knew what we were talking about.

Speaker 5 (03:45):
What are we talking about?
Right?

Speaker 1 (03:49):
What are we talking about right?
What are we talking about sin?
Yeah, what?

Speaker 2 (03:52):
are we talking about why people leave the church?

Speaker 5 (03:53):
because people like me because it's 11 30 and it's
time for lunch.
Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
Yeah, they think we're crazy.
Time to go to subway.
Yeah, they're like, hurry up,nick, it's 11, 35 I'm always me.

Speaker 5 (04:10):
Holly broke the record.
Okay, that's true.
Done, finished.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
I actually have the record for the shortest yeah
sermon now too, so yeah, right,people need to back off just a
little bit.
Yeah, you're just on all yeah,but see just, on fans.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
You never remember the good things about anybody.
You always remember the badthings.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, that's very true, that's very true.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Which should be the other way around.

Speaker 5 (04:35):
Well, it's like the news, it's all bad news.
It is Nobody reports good newsthey don't make money that way.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, I don't listen to the news.
We don't make money that way.
Yeah, I don't listen to thenews.
I don't either Every time thenews comes on, I just turn the
channel.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Hey Roger, how's it been without your home phone?
Real quick.

Speaker 2 (04:55):
Oh yeah, it was real nice.

Speaker 1 (04:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:57):
Oh yeah, you get no spam calls.
Oh yeah, you don't get 442,.
You know, I don't know who thatis spam calls.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
Mm-hmm, yeah, yeah, that's good.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
It'd be nice if my wife would take hers out of the
purse or make sure it wascharged.
If I try and call her, that'saggravating.
But if it was me, where wouldyou at?
I'm always at church, you knowwhere I'm at Church, or?

Speaker 1 (05:25):
work or home, pretty much.
Where was you at?

Speaker 2 (05:26):
I'm always at church you know where I'm at Church or
work or home Pretty much.

Speaker 5 (05:30):
It does make you wonder how people did that for
hundreds of years.

Speaker 2 (05:33):
Yeah, what with no phone?

Speaker 5 (05:35):
Yeah Well, I mean just no mobile phone.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
Oh, I did it, for let's see.

Speaker 5 (05:42):
I remember when I was little.
Probably 50 years.
My mom would call my dad's work.
Maybe it was his break orlunchtime and I remember her
waiting for him to get to thephone.
But that'd be like it, Becauseotherwise you know, if he was
late at all she'd be gettingnervous.
You can't just call him, butyeah, I just imagine, you know.

(06:04):
Life was probably a lot moresimple People didn't realize the
freedom they had.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yes, I agree.

Speaker 5 (06:10):
By just not being connected 24-7.

Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yeah right.

Speaker 5 (06:15):
Now nothing can wait.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
No no.

Speaker 5 (06:21):
At least we all have somewhat of a sense of you know,
like you said, like you canremember, I remember a time-
it's funny today I've beentraining this girl in my office
to do my job when I go onvacation and we had to hand
write an order out today.
So I got the blank copy out andit has.
You know, it has like a shiptoo.

(06:42):
It actually has a few lines andshe started putting the whole
thing on just the one line uptop and I'm like wait a minute,
wait a minute, wait a minute.
You're going to confuse people.
I said first line, put thecompany name.
Second line street address.
Third line city state zip.

Speaker 3 (06:58):
I said you know Just like when you're addressing a
letter.

Speaker 5 (07:02):
And she looked at me you never, have and I'm like oh,
I said, I forget that you kidshave never addressed a letter
and don't even have the conceptof that, so I forget sometimes
how either old I am or youngthey are.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right.
Why aren't they teaching thatanymore?

Speaker 5 (07:17):
Well, because nobody does it, it's all email.

Speaker 1 (07:19):
But I still write my bills out.
You know what I mean write mylike bills out.

Speaker 5 (07:25):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Like yeah, but that's you, but you're still even on
the back end most people justwell and honestly, they are
online.
Yeah, I think the only thing Ido send is like my rebates but,
but at work I have to send a tonof stuff snail mail like for
insurance, like if you're goingto send an invitation to anybody
for yeah, but most people dothat.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
Stuff all online now yeah, it's all an invite on
facebook qr code yeah, yeah,yeah, are you going?

Speaker 5 (07:49):
maybe I don't know right, right yeah yeah, my
granddaughter did that.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I had to call her.
I said, hey, I'll be there.
This is what I want to eatdon't send me no more qr codes I
don't know, how to use them.

Speaker 5 (08:05):
Yeah, it's strange.
When you start to see thatgeneration gap in your life,
you're like, wow, I'm old.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
And I'm not old, but I'm old Compared to the times.

Speaker 5 (08:18):
yes, yeah, you just start to see that gap and you
realize who you're talking to.
And you're like they neverexperienced any of these things.
They have no idea, Because it'sfunny, because everything she
has to do on the computer sheremembers it can put everything,
but as soon as I start puttingpapers out in front of her,
telling her to organize them andfill stuff out, it's like you

(08:39):
can just see them like.
Scatterbrain yeah they have ahard time with that.
Yeah, like scatterbrained, like,yeah, they have a hard time
with that, yeah, it's amazingChanging times.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, I mean you know like I watched a lot of like
the History Channel and that,like what was I watching?
But it was only like 80 yearsdifference and the amount of
change.
You know it was amazing.

Speaker 5 (09:06):
Well, yeah, I often think about you know people that
are in their 90s.
Yeah, the amount of changesthey saw.
Yeah, if I'm walking in thecemetery I'll look at somebody's
born date and perhaps maybetheir passing date.
I'm like, wow, they've seen itall.
Yeah, Like if they were bornlike in the 20s or 30s and they
lived into the 90s 2000s.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
Or early 2000s.
They've seen it all.
I've done that before in thecemetery.
I'm like oh you know, like 1912to like I don't know 98 or
something, and I'm like, wow,you know.

Speaker 5 (09:36):
Yeah, they sell a lot of transition, oh yeah.
They probably didn't even havea motor vehicle.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah.
Once, that's like I went to mycousin's last week, last
Thursday, and she had a bunch ofold photos in that that my
grandmother had, and I saw apicture of my grandfather I

(10:03):
don't know how old he was, buthe had his own business, had a
horse and cart and it saidDelivery and Pickup, you know,
and the name of the horse wasTex.
That's original.
He passed away, I'd say maybe25 years ago.

(10:26):
So, like you say, he startedout driving a horse and I know
he drove a car but then they hadto take the car away from him
because he got too old.
But I mean, it's amazing.

Speaker 5 (10:42):
Yeah, to look a lot— yeah, I'd say that has to be one
of the bigger transitions isgoing from horse to automobile,
oh, yeah, yeah, I don't know ifwe've experienced anything that.

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Well, we could go from automobiles to hovercrafts.
We could.

Speaker 5 (11:02):
We're not there yet.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Close.
Yeah, you know, yeah, you know.
Yeah, I mean you could.
I'll probably never see it, butyou know you may see it.
I hope not.

Speaker 4 (11:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:15):
I don't see how that's going to work.
Oh, me neither how are yougoing to have traffic signals in
the air?

Speaker 2 (11:23):
Well, how do?

Speaker 5 (11:23):
airplanes do it Right .
Yeah, there's a lot ofairplanes in the air, but
there's not that many comparedto vehicles.
Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 4 (11:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (11:30):
So you can see how they can manage that.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Maybe that's when they're going to go to the air
bus.
Air bus, yeah, you know, or?

Speaker 4 (11:41):
air trolley.

Speaker 5 (11:44):
Guess, you never know .
Yeah, you never know, yeah Inever know, or what.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, what's, what's that?
What's that big, uh big trainin china?
Uh, it's an electric train,it's super fast.
The white one, I don't know, Inever saw the color of it, but
there's one, I don't know ifit's that's.
That's in disney world.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
The white one no and it goes super fast.
Is that what you're?
Saying yeah, I'm thinking ofone like that, I don't know, and
that's why people stop going tochurch yeah, we took the long
way around because they can'tfind the transportation.
They can't find thetransportation, they can't find
the correct transportation.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
No, they don't want to find the transportation.
True, true, it's there.

Speaker 1 (12:28):
Yes, they just don't want to get on the bus.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Maybe we ought to start a church Uber.

Speaker 5 (12:37):
So let's channel this episode.
Yeah, so when you thought aboutthat, what was your inspiration
for this topic?
A podcast, it was actually theone I sent, margie.
When you thought about that,what was your inspiration for
this topic?

Speaker 1 (12:44):
a podcast.
It was actually the one I sent,margie I wasn't aware of that
well, I don't know, you don'tknow everything no, oh, I know,
trust me um, it's called girlsgone bible is that?
The two girls that talk they'rejust they're two younger girls
yeah, they have like a some sortof accent yeah, um, she had me

(13:07):
listening to a little bit andthen I've.
Only she thought they were kindof funny the way they talked
yeah, I've only listened to onelike actually that one, but I it
was easy to listen to though isit the one where the girls are
like oh jesus, he's so cute, umthat's what she's telling

Speaker 5 (13:22):
me these girls are so funny, they'll be talking.
Oh that Jesus.
He's just so cute the things hedoes.
I'm about to choke, I'm likewhatever.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
I'm like what.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
I don't remember them saying that and she might have
listened to a different one.
Maybe, you know, a differentepisode compared to the one that
I listened to.
Because I can't remember if Isent her the exact episode or
just their show Rose.

Speaker 5 (13:46):
Gone Bible.
Yep, that's them.
Yeah, that's the one.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Yeah, but there's a podcast that's.
It was pretty big for likeculture.
I don't know, just like, oh,what am I thinking?
Oh, what am I thinking, justlike an everyday, um, worldly I

(14:10):
guess would be, and it kind ofthey kind of give that same vibe
to people like just easy, whatwas that called?
I can't think of the, I can'tthink of the podcast because I
never listened to it.
But I saw a TikTok that wassaying, oh yeah, you know, I
listen to this podcast and itreminds me a lot of not so much

(14:34):
what they say or just kind ofthe layout of it, like just the
casual talking.
So that's why I decided to givethem a try.
But the one girl was kind ofsaying, you know, I've been
really um, focused in on whypeople leave the church and I'm
like, oh, that's a good, youknow, that's a good topic.

Speaker 5 (14:52):
And she didn't go into depth on that podcast that
day because I think it was justlike a side note, but I'm like
that would be something to diveinto so yeah, and that's what so
has anybody in this room everexperienced that firsthand, like
you, went to a church and thendecided, for whatever reason

(15:12):
like this one isn't for me orhad an experience that you know,
kind of, I want to say, turnedsour, but just you realized that
this is not what I'm supposedto be not where you're going to
get fed.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
I was at a church for 20 years and then something
happened and God gave mediscernment, because I was on
the fence as to whether I wasgoing to leave or not.
And then God just gave mecertain discernment that what I
was feeling was right and whathad happened was wrong and it
was time for me to move on.
And I had been there for 20years.

Speaker 5 (15:47):
So what you saw was that going on for a while?
Yes, it had started.

Speaker 3 (15:53):
No, it had been going on for a month or more and I
just was sitting back justwatching it play out, thinking
I'm not sure that this is truth,sure that this is truth, you
know, and then, like just fouror six weeks in god just is like
nope, you know he opened youreyes.
You know like, yeah, beware ofthose people in, yeah, that wolf

(16:15):
and sheep's clothing, you know,yeah, so yeah, he's like it's
time for you to move on.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
So when I brought this topic up because my I was
telling you guys a few weeks agolike it's nice at my work
because we all have a Christianbackground mainly, and we can
all talk about it and stuff.
So I was on my lunch breakyesterday and the two girls that
typically stay for lunch I hadasked them like you know, why do
you guys think people leave thechurch?

(16:41):
And the one is a pastor's wifefor like 25 years I think, and
then the other one, she's justbig into her church.
But it was interesting becausethe one's like well, wait a
minute, are you talking aboutthe church or like church
shopping, like leaving thischurch to go to another church.
I'm like, well, honestly, itcould go both ways.
I said because we've had topicswhere yeah you know we've done

(17:03):
that before, like we all come inwith different points, you know
, like, I think, the one withMichael, you know, it was kind
of like I think he was thinkingmore of the business, the
actually the business world,rather than different
professions, you know what Imean.
So I said, I said we'll see howit goes, you know.
So I think we could highlightboth to it tonight.
Mm-hmm, yeah, roger, what doyou think?

Speaker 2 (17:29):
I think the people leave the church because they
get hurt.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (17:34):
They don't think they're being used.
They don't think anybody seesthem.

Speaker 5 (17:38):
Well, that was the first thing that I was thinking.
Yeah, you know when you'regoing to church, you know what
is your focus.
Are you going in to church,into the sanctuary, taking your
seat, and are you sitting therelooking for God and looking for

(17:59):
the Word, for the inspirationthat's going to come to you that
day?
Or are you looking around theroom, thinking, well, is anybody
going to notice me today?
Is anybody going to acknowledgeme today?
Yeah, like what is your purposeof being there?
today, yeah what is you know?
You're thinking about how Idon't want to say how it affects

(18:20):
you, but yeah, you're makingyourself the center.
Yes, of the attention instead ofthe attention, instead of that
attention going to god right,yeah so if you sit there week
after week and you don't feellike anybody's making you a part
of it yeah, you know or givingyou that recognition that maybe
you're seeking by going tochurch, you know?

(18:42):
Does that you know?
Perhaps that's one of the mainreasons people move on, because
they don't feel like they don'tbelong.
But I sometimes wonder ifthat's because it's more
self-centered than it actuallyis saying I'm coming here to
seek.
God not so other people can seekme and see that I'm valuable.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
I went up to a lady last week and I gave her a
welcome card and I said, oh, Idon't think I've seen you here
before.
I'd like to give you a welcomecard.
Would you please fill this outfor us?
And she's like you want me togive that back to you?
And I said, yeah, she's likewell, I've been here a couple
weeks now.
I said I don't think I've seenyou.
She said you know what, duringpraise and worship, I said I

(19:24):
don't focus on the people thatare around me, I'm focused on
you, know Christ.
And so I said I didn't evenknow that you were.
You know I didn't see you lastweek.
I apologize, but she's likeyeah, I was on your side last
week.
She's like is there likeassigned seating, she said.
I said, oh no, when you come in, you just pick a seat.
You know it doesn't hurt any ofus to move from time to time?

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Was that the lady that was sitting in the back?

Speaker 3 (19:48):
With her sister in the wheelchair.
Sister in the wheelchair, yes,yeah, so, but she said she had
been here four or five timesyeah.
That evening, that morning,that her son came in looking and
I sent him over to you becauseI didn't know who he was looking
for.

Speaker 5 (20:05):
Yeah, so is that?
Do you think that is a failureof the congregation that
something like that happens?
Or like you said?
I mean you come in like you'reprepared to go into worship so

(20:25):
you can be forgiven for notseeking out every new person
that's walking into the church.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
But if you come in seeking God, you're going to
overlook that.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Yeah, you're not going to be offended because
somebody didn didn't reckon.

Speaker 2 (20:46):
You know, yeah, or?

Speaker 1 (20:47):
somebody didn't enter or like introduce themselves
like right and I think, like Ilook at it as like chase.
Chase wouldn't.
I feel like chase would be.
There's just differentpersonalities like I think yeah,
chase would be uncomfortable ifsomeone did that, not saying
that, oh, you shouldn't do it,but I think there are different
personalities that he'd probablybe like.
Hey, I'm glad no one said hi tome, you know what I mean.

(21:08):
So there's a lot of people thatare just wired differently,
right?

Speaker 3 (21:13):
I agree, not everybody's looking to you know,
like Pastor Michael's sermonlast week, on a fence he was on
a fence Right.
Nobody greeted you at the door,Nobody opened the door for you.
You know, yeah, Well, you knowMarcus had to walk away for
whatever reason.
But yeah, you know the thingsthat we just take offense to

(21:34):
that there was nothing meant byit whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (21:36):
Very petty, yes, yeah .

Speaker 4 (21:39):
Well, that's those people that are focused on
themselves.
Them Right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Well, and I think people leave too, because
they've got children and there'snot a youth group or whatever
age group their children are.
There is nothing offered forthem in that age group.
So they start looking for achurch who has more of the
children's church aspect.

Speaker 1 (22:04):
My aunt was like that , you know, she grew up in this
church and she wanted her kidstoo, but at the time we just
didn't have anything.
And I mean so.
They're right next door,basically, but it's like and if
you look at her you know likeshe was only wanting what was
best for her kids.
You know, I don't blame her.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
You know what I?

Speaker 1 (22:23):
mean, I get it.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Absolutely.
She was only wanting what wasbest for her kids.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
You know, I don't blame her.
You know what I mean.
I get it absolutely.
So, yeah, I mean thank you.
If you can find a good biblepreaching church, yeah, then
yeah, yeah, that's the thingpreaching the bible, you know,
and I'm not saying, they don'twhatsoever, right yeah?

Speaker 5 (22:37):
yeah, well, we do have to take those things into
account, that you know.
Yeah, there's going to becouples that have three kids and
they desperately want to go tochurch, but them three kids
ain't going to let them sitthrough the sermon, so they need
a church that has a goodnursery yeah right Things like
that, so they can feel at home,so they can get the word yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
And still bring their children into it, it well
that's um that's the reason weare doing what we are doing now
yeah so that this, this side ofthe church, will be the
children's church.
You know they can have theirown uh, praise and worship time.
You know their own classrooms.
You know the church isbasically our church is growing,

(23:25):
some because we got a lot ofyounger people coming in.
Their kids are well fromCooper's, well from Opal's size
to.
Safira's size.

Speaker 4 (23:40):
Right.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
You know, yes.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
So there's a big gap in there.
So you know you can't havesomeone that's Saphira's age,
which is what?
10, 11?

Speaker 4 (23:51):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
And with the six-year-old.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
Right yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
You know you can't do that.
So that's the reason that we'redoing what we're doing right
now.
You know some people, theydon't understand that.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
They don't realize that you know yeah, like, like,
when we walk in those doors,those red doors, like, like the
goal is, hey, kids gonna go tothe left.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Like kids go to the left, adults go to the right and
yeah and worship and everything.
You know I believe within thenext.
And then you know there's well,like Emmett and Remy.

Speaker 4 (24:35):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Safira, mm-hmm, you know.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
The older ones.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
They're going to be able to start a youth group.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:44):
And you know things are going to grow from that.
Right, you know so you knowpeople, yeah, people leave
because there's nothing fortheir kids.
So you know, yeah, we wanteverybody here.
It doesn't make any differencehow old you are or what you look
like Right.

Speaker 4 (24:58):
We want you from the nursery to my age.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
And then some yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
But you know, like I said, that's the reason we're
doing.
What we're doing right now isto expand the kingdom of God,
and we've got to start with thelittle guys.

Speaker 3 (25:21):
You know, Well, yeah, because they're the future.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
I mean, they're going to leave, you know, but they're
going to have that seed plantedin them and then you know
they'll come back to the Lordone day, or they won't leave.
Yeah, you know.
Yeah, you know so.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah, I think with society.
You know how everything'sscheduled anymore, like everyone
looks at Sunday as a Sunday funday, or you know let's do
sports you know all weekend.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
Or it's just my leisure day and I'm going to
sleep in today.

Speaker 5 (26:02):
I saw a great meme the other day.
It said I want to spendeternity with the Lord, but I
can't give him an hour on Sunday.
Yeah, yeah, there you go so alot of people have the mindset
like, yeah, I want to go toheaven, yep, you know, yep, I'd
rather go fishing.
I heaven, yep, I'm you know.

Speaker 1 (26:22):
Yep, I'd rather go fishing, I believe but I want
you know, yeah, hopefully, whenI die or or when I'm, when I'm
fishing, I'm out there with thelord and it's like, yeah and hey
I don't.

Speaker 5 (26:27):
I don't criticize that because right yeah sure I
do find some validity in in that, for sure, for sure, but yeah
if you're, you know you alwayshave these thoughts of you want
to be with the lord, you want togo to heaven someday, but you
can can't devote an hour a weekat best.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
To be with like-minded Christians To
assemble together, yeah, and.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
I think I read somewhere that it said you know,
when you're reading the Bible,like you can't find a churchless
christian, like, if you thinkabout it, like everyone that was
a christian in the bible, likethey were they were.

Speaker 5 (27:08):
They were a member of a body.

Speaker 1 (27:09):
Remember yeah, you know, and I I think a lot of
people are oh well, I, I don'tlike the religion and I don't
like the church, I don't.
I'd rather just be, have myrelationship with the lord and
do my devotions, and it's like,yeah, but where two or more are
gathered, you know, like youcan't, iron sharpens iron and

(27:29):
right, I don't know, I don't, Idon't like that, and especially
now with the live versions, whenyou can just watch it at home.

Speaker 2 (27:37):
You know, and yeah, tv versions are fine, but you,
you still don't get thatpersonal right and then, there's
no service and there's nocommunity.

Speaker 3 (27:45):
You're not doing.
You're no community, no service.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
No, you're just yeah yeah like, like pastor says,
just putting a check in the boxokay I watch I watch christian
tv right, right, yeah, yep, so Ilistened to a sermon yeah, I'm
good

Speaker 5 (28:03):
well and, as you said , you know the way the world is
now.
Everybody can say I don't havethe time.
Yeah, and we talked about thislast week.
It's very easy to say thingslike I wish I could, but I don't
have the time.
I wish I could, but I've beentired lately.
I wish I could, but I just gottoo much going on.

(28:28):
So it goes back to that isexactly right.
You are busy.
You do have all these thingsgoing on in your life.
Perhaps you are tired, but thefact is you have to make time.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
The time is never going to be presented to you in
this life, in this world.
No, If you're, if you're anybodyif you're trying to be
successful, if you have a family, if you're devoted to anything,
you're right, you don't havethe time on paper, but you have
to make the time.
That's where it all starts, andthere's so many things that I

(29:04):
think if a person decides thatthey first of all, that they
want to be a Christian, they'releaving one life behind to start
another one.
So that comes.
That can come with all of thesecriticisms.
It can come with all.
You can come with all of thesecriticisms.
It can come with losing friendsyou've had your whole life.

(29:26):
There's so many consequences tobecoming a Christian and to me,
I was thinking about this today.
I kind of look at it in thesame way that, look, you want.
You guys all know like I wantto be a Gettysburg guide, right?
Well, even more of a passion ofmine is like I want to be a

(29:47):
writer, like I would love toactually write a book about it.
I would love to write severalbooks.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:54):
But the fact of the matter is it's like you know
what, I don't have time to dothat.
Who's got time to sit down andwrite a book?

Speaker 1 (29:59):
Right, well, guess what it's like you have to make
time.
Make time Exactly.

Speaker 5 (30:05):
But of course the second, that you would decide
that you're going to be reallyserious about it, like lately
I've been getting up at 4 amjust to study certain things so
that I can write.
And I'm thinking, my God, whatam I?
because for a while I'm like Ican't get up at 4 am, I'm just
too tired, too tired, and I amtired, but at some point you'd

(30:25):
be like you know what, if Ireally want to do this, I'm
going to have to make time Right, because you can't ignore your
chores when you get home.
Right and you just all thesethings, so it's like you have to
make time.

Speaker 4 (30:41):
Mm-hmm.

Speaker 5 (30:43):
And once you get into more positive mindset number
one, you're like, yeah, I'mtired, but I can do it.
Yeah, but sometimes you do haveto realize that, as with
becoming a Christian, the secondyou do things, you will have
people in your life that willbelieve that whatever you're
doing is a waste of time.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Oh yeah, right, oh yeah, or not believe in you.

Speaker 4 (31:06):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:08):
So I think sometimes when somebody leaves the church,
it's because, yeah, they getthe enthusiasm, they decide that
I'm going to make time to dothis and they start going, and
then the criticism starts.
That's from either friends,family, because family can be
worse than anybody.

Speaker 3 (31:28):
Oh, yes, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:29):
You know, if you have a mother and a father or
brothers and sisters who are notinto that, they don't believe.

Speaker 4 (31:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:37):
And they find out that you know know you want to
turn your life to the lord.
That could be the harshest formof criticism right there, and
that's the ones, of course, thathurt the worst.
So right away, you're going tocome up against people.
They're going to be like thatis why are you doing?
That is a complete waste oftime.
What, what can you possibly?
You're never going to, you'renever going to accomplish that
yeah you can't do that, you know.

(31:58):
Like with me, it's like well,who would?
you know who would want to readwhat you write.
Anyway, like I'm not thinking,like, oh you know, hey, I want
to be like a national bestsellerright, yeah, it's not even that
it's just fact.
For me it's very therapeuticit's a way to get my thoughts
out and way to just be creativeyeah keep my mind working and it
just for me.
It has a lot of positiveeffects for me.

Speaker 4 (32:20):
So, that's another reason why I want to do it.

Speaker 5 (32:23):
But you can have plenty of people that can look
at anything and go like you'rejust wasting your time doing
that, there's other things youprobably should be doing, or
that you're too old.
You're too old, your time haspassed.
What's the point of doing that?
But I think what's the point ofdoing that?
But I think that's the same.
It's the same kind of thoughtprocess with um, becoming a

(32:43):
christian is you're going toface that criticism right from
the beginning.
And I think people in thebeginning it's like yeah, you've
got that rush of adrenaline,you're excited about doing it
yeah you start going to church,but then, once the excitement
wears off, then you've got thediscipline part which comes into
play.
As far as yep, I know thesepeople are criticizing me.

(33:03):
I want to change my life.
There's people that are nothappy about it.
They think it's going to be awaste of time you know, and
people can fall back reallyquick and be like you know, you
just lose your gumption, youjust lose you know, that
immediate, lose your gumption,you just, you just lose, you
know, that immediate spirit thatyou had for doing it and people
can crush you, um.

(33:24):
So you gotta be, you gotta beready for that.
So I think sometimes that's whyyou'll see somebody at church
and then after a few weeks youknow they don't come back and
maybe because they've beenfacing some of those things.
But of course then that's wherethe discipline has to come into
play.
Next, yeah.
Because you do have to realizethat, just like, if I want to be

(33:45):
a writer guess what?
At some point I have to show mywork to somebody.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
Right.

Speaker 5 (33:50):
I have to show somebody what I've written.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (33:53):
And go out on a limb and get criticism.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, I was just getting ready to say the
criticism, and this is where thediscipline and conviction will
come into play.

Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (34:01):
Is you compare that by saying, okay, yeah, you're
going to go into the church?
You're not perfect, everybodyknows it.
A lot of people can wear theirfaults on their sleeve.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (34:11):
And the second, somebody starts criticizing you
and saying, well, that's notgood enough, you're not good
enough.
Right, you have to be able totake that.
Or you know, if you have wentto your pastor for advice, you
know for counseling, then whenyou get that criticism, then you

(34:32):
have to build on it.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
You have to be willing to accept it.

Speaker 5 (34:34):
That.
Yeah, I realize that I'm juststarting out.
I realize you know I've got alot of work to do.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (34:41):
But a lot of people.
The second they get criticized.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
You know you say how many people are convicted, they
back up in their I should sayconvicted, then, rather than
saying you know what, I thinkthey have some great points.

Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (34:51):
I have some things I need to work on.
I'm going to press forward.
No, they, they fall back.
And that's the second thing.
I think that sometimes willmake people leave the church.
They just can't.
It's easier to quit than it isto to buckle down and to really
and, like we were saying in thebeginning, people want that
recognition walking into thechurch, like they want people to

(35:12):
recognize them, they wantpeople to welcome them.

Speaker 4 (35:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (35:14):
They want all the positives.
Yeah, but as soon as theremight be any conviction.

Speaker 4 (35:19):
Then they don't want it.

Speaker 5 (35:20):
Then all of a sudden it's like, oh, wait a minute, I
don't want everybody looking atme.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Well, I don't want that kind of attention.
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (35:23):
I don't want that kind of attention.
So they'll leave rather thanpush forward and say, yep, I got
some growing to do, yeah, soyou know, it's all of these
things I think with especially,and I don't know, maybe it goes
that way for somebody that hasbeen a churchgoer for 20, 30

(35:46):
years and for some reason theykeep repeating that process.
Like I said, they get theexcitement and the fire up and
then they go and then onceeverything kind of settlesles
down, they lose their disciplineand then they quit for a while
yeah and then maybe they gain itback again.
Something sparks, sparks itagain and they try and they back

(36:09):
off.
But but I think it's thatprocess of, yeah, you have to be
a disciplined churchgoer.
It's not easy because, let'sface it, sunday sometimes is
somebody's only day off.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (36:25):
So you know what are you going to do.
You know if it's your one dayto sleep in, it's very easy to
tell yourself I know I should goto church, but I really need
some rest.
Yeah, but you can take a napafter church yeah.

Speaker 4 (36:35):
I do yeah, sometimes.

Speaker 5 (36:43):
It's just so easy, I mean it's just so easy in this
again in this world, thatsometimes you know people, just
you know they're not willing togive up that hour.

Speaker 4 (36:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (36:51):
And sometimes I'm I see their point.
I do.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Oh yeah, for sure.

Speaker 5 (36:56):
You know, hey, I'm guilty as the next person,
sometimes getting up on Sunday,being like you know what I think
.
Today I just need to settle andsometimes that's not a bad
thing, but it just depends on,like, how disciplined are you
are.
Is that going to make you towhere?
Okay, if you miss this Sunday,does that mean you're going to
miss the whole month?

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Right?
Does that mean you're going to?
You know, Start a pattern?
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (37:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
So go one, skip two, go to skip three, yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
And then it's like well, and then if that is your
only time getting the word, likeit shouldn't be, but if it is.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
There's no wonder you start slipping and miss four in
a row, yeah, so yeah, I thinkit really has to do with the
individual, and I and I stressvery strongly that, as the
individual, you do have to putall of those I don't want to say
selfish things aside, butyou're going to church to meet

(37:54):
the lord, for no other.
That's.
That should be your mainmotivation, week in and week out
.

Speaker 4 (37:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (38:00):
It's not.
You know, is Dawn going to bethere to greet me?
Right, you know, are they goingto have donuts and coffee this
week.
Um, you know, are they like Isaid?
Are they going to make aspecial point to you know, talk
me up, or to make me a goodexample, or get me attention?
Yeah, Um, is anybody going tosay how pretty my dress is today

(38:20):
?
All those things like.
Whatever it is, I didn't knowyou wore a dress.

Speaker 4 (38:24):
Yeah, well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
So your shirt looks good.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
Thanks, you know that's.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (38:35):
Oh yeah, you know just like I said, you have to be
centered on God first andforemost.

Speaker 1 (38:39):
You're not going to make it, and I think the one I
was the one I was about to sayis like the change in the church
like just change, you knowphysical changes, just like
moving the cross to the yeah youknow, and it's like again what
are you coming for?
If you're coming for how itlooks or how it feels, or the

(39:00):
aesthetics or the change ofmusic, like exactly you are, all
you transition from hymns tocontemporary music.
Yeah, right, yeah like, thenyou're I'm not trying to please
you.
You know like I'm trying toplease god, and I think michael
would say the same, like yeah,just I know he dealt with a lot

(39:22):
of that, especially when hestarted first took over A lot, a
lot.
Yeah, and I think that allstemmed from okay, well, he's a
young preacher.
So I think a lot of people were.
Maybe they weren't thinking theway that I'm thinking oh you
know, well, he's young, let metake advantage of him and let me
maybe, if I say that I don'tknow the carpet shouldn't be

(39:42):
moved, he won't move the carpet.
You know what I mean?
Like that's not the case,because the carpet's still here.
But I'm just saying you know,and it's like, first off you're
trying to take advantage of ayoung gentleman who was, you
know, fresh into ministry, andthen you're just doing it for

(40:02):
selfish purposes and then it itmight end up, you know, causing
a huge breakthrough notbreakthrough almost break in
break, yeah, break up of thechurch.
A divide, yeah, you know like,and then you don't want that,
and all because of your selfishdesires you know, yeah, yeah,
just petty petty there was therewas quite a bit of that yeah,

(40:25):
yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:27):
And these are all.
People are people, those areall natural sometimes reactions.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Well, you see the same thing in the workplace.
If there's a new manager, rightyou know, everybody wants to
test them.
Yeah, they them out.
See how much you can get awaywith, yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:41):
So that's human nature.
But again, I think, yeah, italways goes back to the
individual and what they'rereally looking for.
You know, and if you honestlythink you're not finding the
Lord in the church that you'reat and you leave, I say, hey,
you know that's.
That is fine.
Yeah, but just make sure thatyou know number one you're going
to church for the right reasons, right, yeah?

(41:02):
And if you are leaving, youknow, just look within yourself
and just be like okay, why am I,why am I truly doing this?

Speaker 1 (41:09):
yeah, or like if you're church hopping or church
shopping and notice a pattern,well, maybe you're the problem
of the pattern perhaps like ifit keeps following you and I'm
not talking about anyone, I'mjust thinking.
There's certain I don't know,there's certain things I've
heard, not even in this church,just in other places, you know,

(41:29):
and it's just, it's okay to sayyou're wrong, yeah, yeah, it's
okay.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
I'm always wrong.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
Ask I'm always wrong.
Ask pastor, he'll tell you he'sgot a shirt that says so.
You know, I think that leadsinto, like you know, just say
you're wrong.
Well, that's humility, and thenthat's judgment.
And it's like you know, a lotof people do judge in the church
.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
You know, is that an issue?

Speaker 5 (41:52):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, we've been doing this show for
how long now?
I mean, we've been doing thisshow for how long now?
Three years, are we on?

Speaker 1 (41:59):
three years now.

Speaker 5 (42:00):
Yeah, yeah you know, and never once have I walked
into the sanctuary like I'm on apodcast, you know, look at me.
Like you know, I hope everybodycomes talks to me and
recognizes that I'm on the showand he pops his buttons on his
shirt.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Now your shirt don't look toogood now, nick.
When in all?

Speaker 5 (42:17):
reality, and that's the thing.
That's not why I do this.
No, if I don't feel like I wasattempting to help, I don't know
whether I'm helping people ornot.

Speaker 4 (42:29):
I hope so.

Speaker 5 (42:31):
But that's the main reason I do this is hopefully
somebody out there whether it'sin.
India, singapore, any of thosefar off places where perhaps
nobody has heard the word.
Yeah, hopefully, if they justheard my voice one time and it
made them think about Christ andchanging their life.
Right, I've done my job Exactlyand that's all I want to do is

(42:54):
just help people whether they'vegot off the beaten path and
they know to find it again.
Yeah, you know it.
Just that's all I want to do.
I don't want any.
You know, I'm never looking forrecognition Like geez.
I wonder why nobody comes upand tells me that, why that
episode was so good.
Right, right, I never do that.
I just that's not.
No, you know, I appreciate thatwhen people do.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:17):
But not for myself, right, right, not, so I can say,
oh yeah, I did a great job.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Let me go.

Speaker 5 (43:22):
No, it's because whatever we were speaking about,
if it helped that person.

Speaker 4 (43:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
If it inspired them, then that's like I've done my
job.

Speaker 4 (43:29):
Yep.

Speaker 5 (43:30):
And that's all that I want to do.
Mm-hmm, yep, but peoplesometimes just can't think that
way.
No Again, they just.
They're always more worriedabout themselves than they are,
about where they are in thekingdom and what they're doing
for the Lord, and it's just.

(43:50):
It's a very simple thing, Ithink.
But you know we all hear aboutchurch hurt, which myself I've
never really experienced thatand I don't even think I've ever
been friends with somebody orknown somebody that's come up to
me and said, hey, you know, Iwent to this church for 10 years
and this is what happened, andI laughed and I was really upset

(44:12):
.
I never, I never had thatexperience.
So I can't really, I can't talktoo much about it.

Speaker 4 (44:17):
Mm, hmm.

Speaker 5 (44:18):
In that respect.
But I just think it's.
You know, I guess there's amillion different reasons why
people stop coming to church.
But at the end of the day, youdo have to look within yourself
and say why am I?
You know?

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Why am I even here?
Why am?

Speaker 5 (44:36):
I even here.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 4 (44:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:39):
Yeah, it can be a sermon that's preached and that
person thinks it was beingdirected directly at them and it
you know, and it never is.
I mean, if your toes are beingtramped on, that's um conviction
, yeah from the holy spirit.

Speaker 5 (44:52):
Michael has said plenty of times he's like you
know.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
You see other people getting blessings and you're not
yes, and you're not yes and youstart getting jealous of the
people around you, but you butyou should bless them.
Yes, yes, be happy for those,yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (45:07):
Yeah.
You know, yeah, so you say youtalk to your group at work about
this.

Speaker 4 (45:16):
Yeah, right, so what did they?

Speaker 5 (45:18):
have to say Did they bring up any unique.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Melissa was about the only one, but she was the
pastor's wife, um and she.
She basically was saying churchhurt and um, like church
shopping.

Speaker 3 (45:34):
She's like you know, I think I think, what shopping
like where you just jump fromwell and, I think, to those
people don't want to be committhemselves to working with a
group or they just want to comein, sit in the back pew, hear
the message and walk out thedoor.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah and I think she she even brought up and I never
even thought of it.
She's like you know the churchshopping.
She's like I've seen a localchurch around here have a
billboard that basically wassaying no, come church, our
church is better than yours.
And like I don't know exactlywhat it said, but she was like
basically said that you know.
So it's like these otherchurches are almost encouraging

(46:12):
church shopping because it'slike, yes, I do believe you
should advertise and you knowfor for your church and try to
get people in, but not withcertain ways.

Speaker 5 (46:23):
You're doing it right , you know yeah, you know like
that's icky and then um, youshouldn't be targeting other
churches, right?

Speaker 1 (46:30):
like, look at us, we're better than you, type of
thing.
Yeah, and then the other thingshe said was um, just how
everyone's so busy now, likebasically the sunday thing, like
.
And she even said she's likeyou know.
She said like my, my husbandonly preaches for an hour or I
think they're full service is anhour.
You know, he only preaches like15 to 20 minutes is that

(46:52):
possible?
I don't know but you know she'slike.
You know, even if you, ifyou're out of church and it's
too long for you, quote, unquote, like fine, you know.
Then okay, find somethingthat's better for you or
something Like you don't have tojust leave entirely.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
Well, hey, I'll be honest, I'm a really reserved
person.
Yeah, I was raised that way.
I raised myself to be that way.
A lot of examples of peopleI've looked up to they were
really reserved people.
So I've always thought likeself-control was a big part of
not only who I am, but how.
I deal with things, how I stayin control of situations.

(47:33):
So I'm a really reserved person.
So in worship I'm not, I'm not,you know.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (47:44):
I'm not very outspoken with the worship part
of it.
It's it's not my strong suit.
Sure, Just say that it's not mystrong suit.
I'll be completely honest, um,I probably would enjoy a hymn
more than I would enjoy a lot ofup-to-date Christian songs.
Yeah, that's just who I am Right, enjoy a lot of up-to-date
Christian songs.
That's just who I am Right,right, but I'm mature enough to

(48:06):
say okay, there are plenty ofgreat things about this church
that I love, that do well for me, that serve the purpose that I
need to keep me coming back.

Speaker 4 (48:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (48:17):
And I realized that, even though it's not my strong
suit, that may be yours Like theworship part for you might be
the whole like 90% of what getsyou going.
What?
Keeps you coming back everyweek because you can't wait to
get in and get into worship.
And then, when Michael startshis words, you might sit back

(48:37):
like all right, now I got to youknow, yeah, I got to unwind sit
here and listen to him talk foran hour.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
It's okay, I like it.
Gotta listen to his whiny voice, I know right.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
Well, I'd rather be getting excited in worship.
I'm the opposite.
I can't wait to hear Michael'ssermon.
That's what I'm looking forwardto every week.
That's what's going to fuel mefor my week?
That's what I'm looking forwardto every week.
That's what's going to fuel mefor my week.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
That's what I look forward to.

Speaker 5 (49:08):
So, like I said, I'm not going to say I'm going to
leave this church because Idon't like the music they play,
and they play the same songevery week and I'm just not that
type of person.
It's just not for me.

Speaker 2 (49:20):
You can't, just everything can't be it's not all
about you, you know, it's just,and today's it's just because
yeah, no, I mean it's what theholy spirit the church has grown
and into a different dynamicand um yeah you're.

Speaker 5 (49:35):
You're not going to be on fire about everything no
depending on what type of personyou are.
I mean, maybe you can grow intothat, maybe I will grow into
that, um, but I think you haveto look at that.
You, you can't, because I'mlike if it serves somebody else
well and gets them excited, thenI can accept that right, like
I'm happy about that yeah youknow.
If that's what drives them tobe closer to the lord, yeah,

(49:59):
then have at it cooper lovespraise and worship.

Speaker 3 (50:02):
I'm fine, fine with it.
You ever watched him?

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Cooper Cooper.

Speaker 3 (50:06):
Yeah he loves it.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
He just has a natural .

Speaker 3 (50:10):
He's just got a natural rhythm to himself Real
quick my stepmom was just at thehouse and she's like.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
You know, I think, cooper, I always think he's
going to be like a linebacker.
But your dad, he always thinkshe's going to be like a
linebacker, but your dad, healways thinks he's going to be
like a dancer or something.
I said you know what he's goingto be.
He's going to be on the team ofSavannah's.

Speaker 5 (50:30):
Bananas.
Hey, you know some of thegreatest Hall of Fame football
players took dancing lessonsReally.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
Yes, because it helps with their balance.
Oh, and the hand-eyecoordination.

Speaker 5 (50:41):
So it could well just all work right in tandem there.

Speaker 4 (50:46):
Yeah, yeah absolutely it.

Speaker 1 (50:49):
it's honestly, it's like I'm in awe just looking at
him already because he'll likeif I have him, you know, and I'm
driving and I'm looking at themonitor and we're just listening
to music it was 101.9, but thenI switched it to 95.9.
And 101.9, he's going likeheadbanging.

(51:11):
And then 95.9, all of a suddenhis arm goes up.
I'm like he already knows hedidn't have his arm up for 101.9
.
I don't know if Journey was onor what something was on, but as
soon as you know, k love was on, he just his hands and then
just started swaying.
and I'm like yeah it's crazy,and he's how old 16 months 16

(51:37):
months, yeah, so yep, he's gotit down, yeah he's gonna be like
easton, like either dictating athird world country or being a
preacher.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
He gets violent, yeah , um well you got stuff written
down there you got written down.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I know I he keeps crossing stuff off, because I if
I've touched on it, but therewas something that said we're
called to build up the church ofchrist, not to destroy it.

Speaker 5 (52:11):
Like not destroy it because we're to build ourselves
up right, which one is it youknow?

Speaker 1 (52:19):
yeah, like, if you're focused on just building
yourself up, then maybe you needto focus on building church up
would that?

Speaker 2 (52:30):
would that be well?
That wouldn't be humility ifyou're trying to build yourself
up no no they have like astaring contest right here.

Speaker 5 (52:42):
I'm not sure what happened?

Speaker 1 (52:47):
no, I'm just like humbleness.
You almost need to.
I don't know, would that be?
You almost need an act ofhumbleness to like.
So you're not like, yeah, Imean self-love, self-care, but
whenever you're, when you'rejust thinking about yourself,
about, oh, you know, like yousaid poor me yeah, for church,

(53:09):
like putting on a dress, oh isso.
And so gonna say, I look prettylike what.
That's what you're thinkingabout when you're going getting
ready for church, like what Idon't know, or oh well, don
didn't say hi to me, right?
Well, what did you say?
You know?

Speaker 5 (53:22):
one of the greatest acts of faith is when a man lays
his life down for his friends.

Speaker 4 (53:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (53:28):
That doesn't necessarily always mean that you
actually give your life forthat person.
You can give your time, yes,that's why you're doing it.
You're setting yourself asideto do the work of the Lord, and
in that you are benefiting thepeople around you, friends, and

(53:48):
that's what you should belooking to do, as opposed to all
these other selfish kind oflook at me things that might you
know.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Lift others up.

Speaker 5 (53:58):
Yeah, yeah, that's what you know.
You really do have to ask whyam I, why do I want to be a
christian in the first place now?
And yeah, is it to serve others?
Is it to serve the lord or isit to get some sort of advantage
?

Speaker 2 (54:16):
maybe you think just the first two.

Speaker 5 (54:18):
Yeah, to serve, to serve the lord and serve others
you know or you're hoping ithelps you out of a jam right,
yeah you know, out of a rutlooks good on your resume
because you volunteered.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Who knows?

Speaker 5 (54:31):
you know like yeah yeah, I mean, you want it to be
something that changes your lifeso you can help, therefore,
move on and and affect othersand change their lives too.
And it should never be again.
You know, if you, whateverreason you have for leaving the
church, it should never be well,because I yeah no, now, if you

(54:51):
really truly feel like I do not,feel like I'm getting the word
of the lord, okay right, yeah, Ithink you've got a valid reason
, like you said in your case yougot to the point where, like
i'm-getting the sermon here that
this is not you know what theLord would have me do.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
It was so funny because only three of us we all
kind of started had the samediscernment, but it's like
nobody else recognized that itwas false teaching.
But the three of us and allthree of us did we moved on.
I mean, we went to the pastorand his wife, we sat down, we
had, you know, had meetings withthem and discussed it with them
, and two of us were moneycounters and we both just said

(55:30):
we're going to give you afour-week notice so that you can
get somebody into our position,but we are going to leave the
church.
And this is why there was nocoming back from what they had
done.
You know it was they were.
They were holding true to whatthey had done and said.
But yeah, the lord told me itwas wrong, so it was time for me

(55:55):
to move.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
Yeah, good thought, yeah those are healthy reasons.

Speaker 1 (56:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Now question the other twopeople, or families.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
Did they rejoin a church?
The one did, and I know theother is still out of church.
I've even invited her to comeup here with us but she's yet to
do it.
So she's still out of church.
And that's been 10 years ago.
Yeah, so my mom has been gonefor nine.
So 10 years ago eight to tenyears, something like that

(56:33):
you've been here that long.

Speaker 2 (56:34):
I've only been here three oh, I was gonna say I've
only been here three flies yeah,no, I did another church for a
year after my mom died.

Speaker 3 (56:43):
I was out for about four years because my mom and I
went to church together and Iwas out for about four years,
went to another church for ayear.
Just didn't feel at home.
Yeah, been to a couple of thebigger churches, felt like I was
being entertained.
Yeah, and then Beth invited mehere and after I got past,
pastor Michael's whiny voicebeen here ever since you can get

(57:06):
through that.

Speaker 5 (57:06):
You can get through that, that's true.

Speaker 3 (57:10):
Sorry, Pastor Michael .
No, that was Satan.
He didn't want me here hedidn't want me to grow.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
That was truly Satan, yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:18):
But I'm, you know, I'm looking at your friend, you
know, and it's like this stickysituation that whatever had
happened, like that's why theyleft and who knows if they're
even going to return, likehopefully, yes, but you know,
yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:32):
So it's like when you are involved in a church and
she has been a Christian all ofher life.
Yeah, and it just surprises methat she is not back in church,
that she has not found a church,yeah.
That she is not back in church,that she has not found a church
.
Yeah, maybe she's afraid.
Well and I know health problemshappen for her husband, her dad

(57:54):
you know.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
So there has been a lot of things that Satan has put
in her life

Speaker 5 (57:56):
that kept her out of church, yeah, yeah, and you
always have to consider thatpoint too.
You know you got to be like isthis something that I want to do
, or is the enemy making me dothis?

Speaker 1 (58:08):
yeah, yeah, you know just yeah, yeah what do you got
over there?

Speaker 3 (58:20):
no well you got.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
I mean, you got your bible open, you your Bible open,
you got a whole page.

Speaker 3 (58:24):
We've pretty much talked about everything that I
had written down.
Did anyone have a scripture atall?

Speaker 5 (58:29):
I didn't.
I didn't either.
I didn't even prepare for this.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
I meant to look for one and I'm like I don't even
know.

Speaker 5 (58:35):
I actually thought Michael was going to be here.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Me too.

Speaker 5 (58:38):
I really thought he was going to take the bait.

Speaker 4 (58:39):
Yeah.
I really thought he was goingto take the bait?

Speaker 2 (58:41):
Yeah, no he didn't.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
So, yeah, well, you know, like Romans 12, 17 through
19 talks about, you know thehurt and offense and repay no
evil for evil, but give goodthought to do what is honorable
in the sight of all, if possible, so far as it depends on you.
Live peaceably with all Beloved.
Never avenge yourselves butleave it to the wrath of God.
For it is written vengeance ismine and I will repay, it, says

(59:05):
the Lord.
That's right.

Speaker 5 (59:07):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, michael, talking aboutoffense, you know that has to be
one of the just driving factorsof people leaving.

Speaker 3 (59:16):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:17):
Right.
People will take offense toanything.

Speaker 1 (59:20):
Anything, and if it's not what he's preaching about,
about it's what someone didn'tdo.

Speaker 3 (59:27):
You're not going to put the right color of panels up
in the new sanctuary.

Speaker 5 (59:31):
The color won't be right you suggested it and
michael didn't take it yeah youknow, and so yeah, michael
nobody's ever gonna, you knowyeah, like I'm not offended,
he's not sitting here right now.

Speaker 1 (59:40):
No, and that's a, you know, and that's seriously
that's a great point.
Yeah, like he was part of the.
Yeah, like I'm not offended,he's not sitting here right now.

Speaker 5 (59:43):
No, seriously, though , that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:45):
Like he was part of the team.
For how long?
Yeah, and he makes a personaldecision based on his life and
what he needs to do, and what heneeds to move himself forward
or to move the church forward.
Yep, and none of us were likewell he's quitting, I'm quitting
, I can't believe that.

Speaker 1 (59:59):
What do you mean?
Right, right, and I mean, thiswas all his idea.

Speaker 5 (01:00:02):
Does he not like us?
Yeah, what did we do?
You know, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:08):
I know he doesn't like me.
We just kept trucking along.

Speaker 5 (01:00:11):
I took that as you know what.
This is our opportunity,because he often says he likes
to take something build it upand then, hand it off to
responsible people, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
Build it up, yes, and then pass it off to responsible
people, yeah, yeah, so that isother than roger he thinks we're
responsible.

Speaker 5 (01:00:30):
Yeah, so you have to say he had enough faith in us.
Say you know, what you guys canhandle this yes, yes you know
you guys can not only keep it atthe level we're at.
Perhaps you you can bring it tothe next level.
Yeah, and that's the healthyway of looking at things like
that.
None of us took offense to it.

Speaker 4 (01:00:45):
Like perhaps.

Speaker 5 (01:00:46):
Well, he says he did it for this reason, but I really
think it's because you know,yeah, yeah, that is a good point
.
But that's hard.
A lot of people just, yeah,they can read into things and
make it all about themselves andit's just.
And I always hate I I have tobe honestly.
This topic sometimes alwaysbothers me because I never want

(01:01:10):
what I say to come out as I'mcriticizing somebody or negative
for you know, uh, but perhapsit's.
It's one of those things thatneeds to be said.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
Or if the shoe fits wear it.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
I was going to say that Boy, that was snooty.

Speaker 5 (01:01:36):
Yeah, you know, sometimes I have I don't want to
ever, because somebody could belistening to this and be like,
well, that's just not at all.
Yeah, you know, I really justyou know.
So they could be listening tothis and be like, well, that's
just not at all.
Yeah, you know, I really justyou know.
So they could take offense towhat we're saying right now, and
that's never my intention.

Speaker 4 (01:01:52):
No.

Speaker 5 (01:01:52):
Is to say you were doing something wrong because
you didn't come back to church.
Maybe you do have.
I'm sure there are people outthere that do have valid reasons
.
Like you said, maybe there'shealth concerns.
Maybe you know there's thingsthat you just can't control
right now.

Speaker 4 (01:02:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:02:10):
But probably more often than not it's like I said,
because people have gotten thefire, you know the excitement's
over.
They've lost the discipline,and not only that, but now
they've made it more aboutthemselves than they've made it
about the Lord, and in that caseyou will never fit in in any
church.
No matter, you'll always besearching.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:02:34):
And not just searching for a building.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Yeah, right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:39):
Searching for, because you haven't found it yet
.
Right, yeah, right To me Icould go in a dark cave Right
Searching, because you haven'tfound it yet.

Speaker 1 (01:02:43):
Right, yeah, right Right.

Speaker 5 (01:02:44):
To me I could go in a dark cave somewhere you haven't
found that relationship, rightyeah?
I could go in a dark cavesomewhere and worship just as
much as in this church.
Yeah, that's the thing.
It doesn't matter to me.
Yeah, you know what I needed tofound.
I found a long time ago but Istill have to work at it.
That's the thing.

(01:03:04):
I still have to work at it.
You know, it's just not goingto like I said with me being a
writer.
It's like I just can't be like,yeah, you know what I really
want to be a writer.

Speaker 3 (01:03:11):
I can worship and praise when I'm out on my walk.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
I've got my phone in my back pocket with my.

Speaker 3 (01:03:16):
K-Love playing.
Yeah, in the yard pulling myweeds Yep.

Speaker 5 (01:03:20):
You got to make time?
Yeah, because it is not goingto be given to you, not in this
world.
It's just not Excellent.
And, yeah, I think young peopleand that's why, when that kid
came to me and said well, I justdon't feel like I'm old enough
to be starting being in a churchgroup and I'm thinking no, this
is the exact time in your lifeBecause when you were younger.

(01:03:46):
If you haven't started a familyyet, you do have the time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:48):
You have the time and the energy and the fire to
start To build that and build itup and really get it going.

Speaker 4 (01:03:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
Because guess what, If you try to start it once
you're married and have kids andall these responsibilities that
ain't so easy You're way behindthe eight ball.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:04:07):
You know, young people, you've got to start the
fire now and build it.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:04:12):
And keep it burning.
But I think that's easier ifyou take it when you're young
and establish it you know, justlike you're establishing
everything else You'reestablishing your career more
likely.

Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
You're establishing your financial goals, your house
goals.
You know everything.

Speaker 5 (01:04:27):
Yeah, and that's a great point, for young people is
boy.
I wish I could go back and doit over again, everything.

Speaker 3 (01:04:33):
I know now oh, absolutely, because then I?

Speaker 5 (01:04:35):
would think, yeah, I'm going to have my finances
all set up.

Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
I'm going to have you know.
Yes.

Speaker 5 (01:04:41):
I know all the pitfalls.
You know I'm gonna have youknow.
Yes, yeah, I have.
I know all the pitfalls.
I'm gonna plan all these thingsout and, yeah, I'm gonna start
my walk with the lord a lotearlier and you're gonna build
it right now as you've got thetime you've got the energy.
You got no distractions, butyour own yep you know no
responsibilities.
That's the time when you shouldbe doing it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
Yeah, yeah, especially like the kids.
And I'm just thinking likeduring COVID you know, I didn't
have Cooper, I had I was goingon two, three walks a day
because, first off, I didn'thave a job, I went from working
full time to, hey, we can't work, you know.
So that's when I really builtmine and because I had that time

(01:05:21):
and had that energy and I don'tknow, I mean, I think with the
kids that are in college, youknow, let's say, part time, I
don't know how many semesterhour gosh credits, that 20 maybe
, is that still part time?
Part time, yeah, but you know,say you did that.

Speaker 5 (01:05:38):
I think 28 hours is part time.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Okay, yeah Something like that you know, even if you
did that and worked part-timeand you know you'd still have
time to do to get into the Word.

Speaker 5 (01:05:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:52):
A little more than I'd say a normal adult.
I don't know.
I could be, I could be lying, Idon't know.

Speaker 5 (01:05:58):
No, as human beings, we waste an awful lot of time.
Yes, we do oh yeah, we waste somuch time, you know, and it's
just you don't realize it untilsomebody starts pointing it out
to you Like, wow, you couldactually add up all the time you
wasted in a week either deskscrolling on your phone or
sitting in front of the TV Idon't know, just sitting in a

(01:06:20):
chair.
Just I'm too tired to get upand do anything.
Sleeping, sleeping, yeah, itwould just break your heart if
you saw at the end of your life,how much time you wasted.

Speaker 2 (01:06:32):
Nick's got a spy cam at my house, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:06:40):
So it's there for the taking.
That's the thing.
It's there for the taking, butyou've got to make time.
Just like we've said before,it's like any other relationship
.
You can't expect yourrelationship with your wife or
husband to work if you're neverthere.
If you're only willing toinvest one hour out of a whole
week to that person, thatrelationship is not going to

(01:07:03):
last.
It's the same thing with theLord.

Speaker 2 (01:07:05):
Yeah, it will.
That's why mine's lasted 50years.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Oh man Linda.

Speaker 5 (01:07:20):
Linda, linda Linda In most cases, Roger.
I'm trying to make a point here.
Yeah, linda Linda In most cases, roger.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
I'm trying to make a point here, yeah come on.

Speaker 5 (01:07:27):
Well, yeah, but we've got to bring it back to reality
too, but yeah, if you go tochurch for one hour, if you're
there for an hour, my guess isif you're leaving I would say,
in most cases, if you're leavingthe church and that's all
you're doing is putting in anhour a week, well, you're done.

(01:07:50):
It's probably going to be acontinuing cycle oh yeah, yeah,
you know it.
Just, I think it's likeanything else you're going to
give up, you're going to losethe fire you're going to yep you
know, get get excited aboutsomething else for a while,
whether it's pickleball, like Iknow.
Pickleball for a while was likea huge phase everybody's buying
these paddles and our kids wereplaying every night and it was

(01:08:13):
just all the rage.
And now them paddles are justsitting in the garage collecting
cobwebs and nobody knows wherethey are.
One of them's broke.
It's like yeah, yeah, how dothey make, how do they are One
of them's broke.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
It's like, yeah, yeah , how do they make balls out of
pickles?

Speaker 5 (01:08:29):
Oh, you'd be surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:08:31):
Oh, they got a press.
Yeah, pickle ball, press,pickle ball press.

Speaker 5 (01:08:36):
They cure for a long time.
They cure for a long time, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
Throw some epoxy on it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
Who comes up with some of this dumb stuff?

Speaker 5 (01:08:49):
Well, it's just like tennis on a smaller court.
It's like a wiffle ball almostyeah it's like a wiffle ball, I
don't know.
It's like for people that can'tplay tennis and don't have the
drive or the fire to actuallylearn how to play tennis.
And you don't have to runaround as much you know.
So yeah, we came up withpickleball.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
It's a lazy man's tennis game yeah, but I thought
that's what ping pong ping pongwas yeah, well, yeah, but that
ball's a lot smaller, thepaddle's smaller, the table's
smaller yeah, but the table isprobably maybe a little smaller
than the pickle ball.
I would say huh, because thepickle ball is like in the

(01:09:32):
tennis court, like they havelines.
Yeah, it's pretty yeah it's noteven like you're playing full
court yeah like you do withtennis yeah, like it's a little
wider than this, I'd say andthey put two people in there to
play on each side.

Speaker 2 (01:09:48):
Well two and two.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
One and then one.
Yeah, do they do two and two?

Speaker 5 (01:09:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
Oh man, man, you'd be bumping into each other,
hitting each other with a hat.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Nobody wants to play with me because they'd be black
and blue.
Yeah, oh, anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
Well, any parting wisdom.

Speaker 5 (01:10:13):
Like I said, just realize it's not always going to
be about you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
It's not always going to be about you.

Speaker 5 (01:10:19):
It's not always going to be about you and in the end,
like any great relationship oranything you know, the fire is
going to wear off and it doescome down to discipline and
trust.
That's right, and putting yourtime in yeah.
Got to put your time in, yeah,and I think you'll see less

(01:10:44):
people that stick around yeah,um, and perhaps you you'll.
You'll get over a lot of thatimmaturity and you'll build
yourself up to you know, yeah,you're growing, yeah you know
that's the way I look at.
If somebody in the church isbehaving badly, I know it's.
You know it's not my job oranything, but somebody's
behaving badly I know it's.
You know it's not my job oranything, but if somebody's

(01:11:05):
behaving badly in the church,it's like well, that's, that's
on them.
Yeah, it's not going to affectmy relationship with the Lord.
Right, I just you know unlessunless they're trying to set
fire to the building or you knowsomething crazy, I mean but if
it's just because they'resitting in their seats sulking
Mm-hmm, yeah, that's on them.

Speaker 1 (01:11:21):
You're wasting your hour and a half because you're
sulking about who knows what youneed to reevaluate what you're
doing.
That's all I got yeah, I thinkthat's all I have.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
I'm done.

Speaker 4 (01:11:39):
No, you're not it's your turn to pray because you
skipped last week.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
I can't help it.
Yeah, but I don't miss verymany weeks.
No, you don't.

Speaker 1 (01:11:54):
But we're not going to give you a pass though.
Well, we can give him a pass.

Speaker 5 (01:11:57):
I mean he's still invested in the Lord when he's
not here.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Right?
Maybe that's true.
That's true.
It in the lord when he's nothere, right?
Maybe that's true.
That's true, although last weekI don't think you it wasn't, he
wasn't in the what's he doing?
He was somewhere else, I don'tknow.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
He wasn't in the oh yeah, I, I, yes, I was.
I was in my bible because I hadto.
Uh, I had a meeting with my uhuh niece and her to be husband
because, oh, I'm going to marrythem, oh nice.

Speaker 1 (01:12:25):
Well, there you go.

Speaker 2 (01:12:28):
So I had a meeting with them.

Speaker 5 (01:12:30):
Well see there.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
I apologize, I'm sorry.
All right, take it on.

Speaker 2 (01:12:39):
Heavenly father, we do Thank you, lord, for this day
.
Lord, we just asked you to takeand be with this podcast.
Be with those listeners, lord,that have heard the word and
heard what we had to say today.
Lord, you know we all have anopinion, lord, and it's ours,
but you know you need to listento the Lord, listen to his words

(01:13:00):
, read his words, listen to thesermons that the pastors put out
, lord, because they're for you.
Lord, if you get hurt, sit backand think about it.
Maybe it's to help you grow, tohelp you through this world,

(01:13:20):
lord, to help you get to heaven.
Lord, we just thank you andpraise you, lord, for being with
us, for watching over us, forkeeping us safe.
Lord, keep us safe until we getback here again.
Lord, and be with those thatare listening, and we just ask
this all in Jesus' most preciousname.

(01:13:40):
Amen.

Speaker 3 (01:13:42):
Amen.