February 4, 2021 • 21 mins
Guest Speaker: Louisa Dunbar
Louisa is the founder of a web design agency called OrangeGrove. She has been involved in the webby world ever since leaving university! Design and psychology are her biggest passions! She is figuring out what makes people tick (and click) and do the things they do. I have been following her on LinkedIn and everything she shares is truly valuable.
In this episode, we have an AMAZING talk about neuroscience and how it can influence marketing. We discussed the following topics: 1. What is neuromarketing, 2. Basic principles of neuromarketing that someone can apply to retain existing customers, as well as to acquire new ones, 3. How easy it is to use neuromarketing, 4. What skills someone should have to use neuromarketing theories, 5. How neuroscience, fits into the different stages of the marketing funnel, 6. Trends & innovations in neuromarketing, 7. How easy it is to be ethical in digital marketing and most specifically in neuromarketing.
You can find Louisa via email at louisa@orangegrovedesigns.co.uk
Websites:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:06):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast
episode of Growthtale. Today Ihave with me Louisa Dunbar. And
we will go on to discuss abouthow neuroscience can empower
marketing.
Louisa is the founder of a webdesign agency called Orange
Grove. She has been involved ina Webby World ever since leaving
(00:28):
University design and psychologyor her biggest passion, sees
figuring out ever since whatmakes people think and click and
do the things they do. Andthat's why I have here, here
with us in this episode, I havebeen following share on LinkedIn
and everything he says is trulyviable. So Louisa, can you
(00:49):
please describe your experiencein the digital marketing
industry? What inspired you tobegin a career in web design?
Yeah, so I guess it started offat university, I did an
interactive media productiondegree over here in England. And
it's so that covered, you know,lots of aspects of digital
(01:11):
marketing. It was called NewMedia back then, which was
basically now It means digital.
And yeah, we dabbled a littlebit in web design. And from
there, it just sort offlourished. I, I helped my mom
with her, she had a business andI designed her website for her.
might in fact, I designed threewebsites for her. And then yeah,
(01:35):
I just kind of got hooked. Iloved web design, because it for
me, it encompassed both thedesign side, and also the
technical side. So I like in theearly days, in the early days it
needs. I liked the design andthe development. And so yeah, it
kind of hooked me in from there.
And I have been hooked eversince and grew my business as a
(01:57):
result. So I was employed for alittle while. But then yes, I
just wanted the freedom to kindof follow this path in the way
that I felt it should best go.
Yeah, that's where we are today.
Awesome. Andso we you had a white
background, web design thing?
(02:17):
And how did you found yourself?
experiment again, implementingneural marketing? Wow, yes. So
yeah, I guess it progressed. Soin the early days, I was just
designing websites, for clients.
But I always felt that if you'redesigning something for a
business, it really should getresults, you know, it shouldn't
(02:38):
just look pretty it needs towork for them. And yeah, my
knowledge sort of progresseddown that route, investing more
in the UX side of things userexperience. And, and, you know,
it was all about creatingwebsites that drove those
results that got the achieve thegoals that those businesses were
looking to achieve.
(03:01):
And so it's always been for melooking for the next thing that
can really, really enhance thatfor clients. So UX came first,
then the psychology and then theneuro marketing kind of came
after it was sort of alwayslooking for the next thing
that's going to deliver the bestresults that we can possibly
accomplish. So yeah, that's howit came to pass.
(03:25):
Perfect. So for this episode, Iwant for everyone to be like a
pro guide and to understandneuro marketing, especially for
SMEs and startups,and why it's important for their
marketing strategy. So my firstquestion related to that is,
what is your marketing? Can youexplain to the audience in
simple terms? Yeah, sure. Soneuro marketing or consumer
(03:49):
neurosciences, it's also called.
So in its basic terms, it's thecommercial use of tools used in
neuroscience to betterunderstand consumers responses
to marketing efforts. So inother words, it's another bit
more science backed way ofgathering insight to improve our
marketing efforts. So yeah,basically, scientific market
(04:13):
research. And traditional formsof market research focused more
on the verbal or consciousresponses, such as feedback
surveys and questionnaires thatyou know, our users or target
audience might respond to. Butthese are all conscious things.
However, around 95% of thedecisions we make in life, and
(04:35):
online, are subconscious. So youknow, these feedback surveys and
questionnaires aren't reallyvery accurate because we are
unable to actually articulatethose decisions that we've made
or the reasons behind thosedecisions. So for deeper
insights and more accurateinsights, we need to be able to
access consumers subconsciousand the only way that
(05:00):
We can do that is through theuse of neuroscience tools. And
they allow us to extract datafrom physiological responses
like heart rate, temperature,perspiration brain activity, in
conjunction with the eyetracking. So we know what is
causing reaction at any giventime. And but of course, since
(05:21):
we're focusing on the brainhere, the term neuro marketing
has since also been stretched tokind of encompass not only the
physical research methods togain those insights, but also
the application of behavioralscience or psychology to achieve
desired outcomes. So yeah,you explained it perfectly. We
can say so that neuro marketing,technology helps marketers
(05:46):
understand how the brain issafe, have a specific persona
react to a particular situationusing different resources and
tactics. Other aiming principlesare for new marketing that
someone can apply to retainexisting customers as well as to
acquiring new ones. Yeah, thereare plenty of theories within
(06:07):
behavioral science that can helpus with this, with neuro
marketing, and psychology is allabout putting the users first
and making websites we produceas human centered as possible,
as opposed to business businesscentric. So basically, includes
probably eliminating as muchfriction from the website as
possible. And so in simpleterms, removing anything that
(06:30):
could annoy users and add infeatures which make the journey
as easy as possible, andtherefore, you know, answering
the users questions and preempting them whenever they need.
And, and in terms of retainingcustomers, if the experience is
so seamless and pain free, thatthat should be enough alone to
provide that sticky content, andto get them back repeatedly. But
(06:54):
of course, you know, the offlinecustomer experience has to match
it as well. But yeah, along withthis, there are plenty of you
know, psychological theories,which can help us persuade
users, you know, push them alittle bit more to the point of
conversion or resonate with themon another level. So a couple of
examples might be a scarcityeffect. So this is the theory
(07:17):
that we value goods that are inshort supply over those that,
you know, there might seem to beloads of that. So we don't want
to miss out essentially. So byshowing low stock status on a
product, for example, we'll helpconvert those who might be
worried about missing out. Soit's just about, you know,
pushing them to the point thatthey think we're better do this
(07:38):
now, rather than put it off. Andanother one is authority. So
it's another really strongtheory that we tend to use a lot
on websites. And it's basicallyhuman nature to follow and
believe those who are inauthority, so added endorsements
to your website from those whoare in authority, for example,
(07:58):
you know, doctors or thoughtleaders or influencers.
And they that will help boostyour website's or your
business's credibility.
But of course, you know, wecan't use all the theories, you
know, blanket across alldifferent types of businesses,
we very much need to assess thegoals of what you're trying to
(08:20):
achieve through the website inthe business, who your target
audience is, among other things.
So yeah, we need to remainflexible and kind of look out
book before we provide theanswers.
What are some questions someoneshould ask when trying to use
neuro marketing for the websitesor any other marketing funnel.
(08:41):
So whether you're using neuromarketing, just in terms of the
behavioral science point ofview, or whether you're
interested in actually using thetools to gain insights on your
website users, and then optimizethe user journeys from their
results? It's really importantFirstly, to align yourself with
the business goals. What are youhoping to achieve? And if the
(09:02):
website has clear goals, thenyet neuromarketing can bring
some really big returns. But notonly that, it can provide
insights into your customerbase, which can help all areas
of the business from you know,sales and marketing, you know,
even product and businessdevelopment teams as well. So
it's Yeah, I hope that answers alittle bit. Is it easy to use
(09:27):
neuro marketing to applied to amarketing strategy? Wow.
Effective neuromarketing canonly really be done by people
who have, you know, the properexperience, it might be academic
experience, and you know, beinghaving been trained properly.
The reason for this is that it'sreally, really easy to
incorporate subconscious biasesinto the results of that can
(09:50):
basically lead it to be have theresults completely skewed. And a
lot of it can basically start togive this field of neuro
marketingA real unfair reputation for
inaccuracy if it's not usedcorrectly. But it is a field
that is evolving quickly totechnology is thankfully, you
know, improving each year, andis able to provide us with a lot
(10:12):
of insights. There arebusinesses out there who offer a
service, but they aren't reallyqualified. So it's just about
making sure that you work with areputable supplier, or just make
sure you get the experience andtraining required to be able to
get the results that you'reyou're hoping for. So you said
(10:35):
actually, the most importantthing is to have an academic
background, right? Well, this iswhat this is our interpretation
of it. Not all businesses see itthis way, but from my point of
view, and it's an area which isevolving so much that having
that academic mind within theservice, helps it stay on track
(10:57):
and stops you being biased. withanything that's commercial, any
activity that's commercial, itdoes risk those biases creeping
in, and you're wanting to givethe client what they want, you
know, so to be able to negatethat it's about bringing in
people who don't have any,you know, preconceptions or they
(11:19):
don't have any loyaltiesnecessarily, and to be able to
offer the interpretations andanalysis of the data in the
correct way. So yes, great.
However, we may find someresearch some papers and we try
to implement maybe this theory,like the ones you mentioned
(11:40):
before.
Should we take for granted theresults of this research? Or
should we do of course, anotherA B test, to experiment with our
case, our products? And to seethe reaction of the customers?
Yeah, exactly. Because? Becauseevery if you're seeing a paper
from someone who's done itseparately to you, then yes, you
(12:03):
know, every user is different.
Every customer base isdifferent. Every product is
different. Every user journey isdifferent. Therefore, one size
doesn't fit all, no matter howsimilar you think it might be.
Therefore, yes, it is alwaysimportant to you to do your own
testing, and come up with yourown results. Yeah, great.
Another question I have is howthis fits into the different
(12:26):
stages of their marketingfunnel? For example, do we have
different things we need toconsider whether a customer is
on the awareness phase, or indifferent strategies? Maybe
whether they are in the close ofthe conversion? I see. Yeah. So
there are usually stages thatbusinesses need to go through
before the research phase. Andyeah, and your marketing can be
(12:50):
bought in at different sort ofstages of the marketing funnel,
and also the marketing processas well. But yeah, it can only
really work whenyou're from a website point of
view Anyway, when you're tryingto analyze a journey or a
specific page on a website.
(13:12):
So yes, but before that, otherstages of the marketing funnel,
and you might be able to doincorporate other elements of
your marketing or userexperience, such as UX and
customer workshops, to make surethat everyone within the
(13:32):
business is on the same page,and that goals are really
understood and aligned. And soyes, there is definitely the
potential Do you think it iseasier to practice neuro
marketing before or after thelaunch of a new product or
service or ID or anything? Whenwhat would you suggest someone
to do before they consider usingyour marketing for their brand,
(13:54):
so for the best results, and tomaximize sales or signups and it
should be brought in as part ofthe testing phase prior to
launch really, but it's then youknow, really important to test
and tweak regularly on realcustomers to continually
optimize the performance.
(14:15):
But there are also circumstanceswhere it could be brought in
well after launch to, tooptimize the journey at that
point. It kind of depends when acompany is basically ready to
invest in improvements. A lot ofit comes down to budget or just
knowledge of this field. Can youpredict some trends, innovation
(14:35):
senior marketing for the nextyear maybe or the next years?
Yeah, it is a tricky one is atricky one. But
the in terms of the technologythere's you know, at the moment
we have eg we have GSR galvanicskin response, you know that
(14:55):
with in conjunction with the eyetracking and facial coding, some
of Those need moreimprovement improvements before
they are 100%. There.
So I think, you know,improvements with regards to eg
and how that's interpreted. Andalso facial coding and how
exactly that fits in, is goingto be something that will
(15:20):
come to light more over the nextyear or two. But the big one,
which remains slightly elusiveis fMRI, which is functional MRI
scans. And those are when youknow, for those of you who don't
know, those are when you're inan MRI scanner, you know, like
you would in the hospital. Andyou're asked to respond to
stimuli that you're presentedwith. And they can see your
(15:43):
areas of the brain lighting up.
And, and so that at the momentis obviously not very
accessible. There are not manyof these MRI fMRI scanners
around and and also the onesthat are that are extremely.
Yeah, that's something that Ihope will
(16:06):
be innovated further in the nextyear or two, maybe more than
that just to make it moreaccessible.
Nice. Since the moment you saidabout the example you gave about
the scarcity theory,every then visiting millions of
free soaps and websites, and Isee a lot of people applying
this theory, however, they notunderstand that they're using
(16:30):
neuroscience neuro marketingtheories. And I'm sure they're
not applying it 100% correctly.
Have you experienced any otherexamples like that, that you can
get that you say, Okay, this isa big favor, they need to know,
for example, to enhance this,what are the biggest things you
have seen? Yeah, yeah, thatscarcity is the biggest one,
(16:51):
though. So many, so many people,so many businesses apply that
and falsely, and there have beenrecent examples of brands being
investigated for it as well. Soit's not something you can get
away with.
There's a big example over herethat they were, you know, pulled
out for and have corrected theirways. I think, anyway,
(17:14):
basically, they use the conceptof scarcity, but they it's fake,
it's not true. You know, it'sthey say that there's what, five
people watching this item, we'rereally that's not true. And so
that's how they're using itfalsely, it's fine. If you use
scarcity, you know, morally, andit's correct. And
(17:35):
you know, that that's fine. It'sfine. And I don't have issue
with that. But yes, it's thereare other examples.
And we call these dark patterns.
So there are aside from, youknow, immorally, putting data in
one, which is incorrect. Andthere are things such as ads,
which are disguised to getclicks, confirm shaming, you
(17:58):
know, trying to move out ofopting out, that kind of thing.
And they are tricks, really,they are designed to manipulate
audiences rather than persuadethem, which is what we do as
part of neuro marketing.
Yeah, businesses use them forquick wins, but they really just
(18:20):
need to understand that theywill come at the expense of
loyalty and repeat business. Soin the end,
it's it's their own brand thatthey're doing harm to.
So yeah, it's aside from thatday. There's, aside from the
sort of the psychologicaltactics that are being used.
immorally there's the wholefield of neuro marketing and
(18:42):
subject to that as well. Manypeople, many businesses get
tempted to use neuro marketing,as neuroma as marketing. And so
they throw the term about toimpress and attract clients, but
really, they don't implement itproperly. If at all, the results
aren't great. So it can, youknow, bring this field into
(19:03):
disrepute, which is somethingthat really bugs me,
which is why we came up withUniversity College London, as I
said, the academic side of it,so that, you know, we can prove
everything we do in ethical. Soyeah.
Guys, this leads to my lastquestion, actually, something
that I started using the lastyears and continuously discuss
(19:26):
with other professionals. And Ireally want to hear your
thoughts on that. What ethics insome marketing means to you, do
you think it is says it to beethical in the term marketing
and more specifically in yourmarketing? And yeah, I mean, it
does really, it means a lot tome to be ethical in digital
marketing. And I think it's easyto be ethical, if you have that
(19:50):
inclination.
You know, and so as I said, withregards to using your marketing
as marketing people are justusing that to gain businesses.
When to gain business whenreally they're not actually
implementing your marketing. Butthey know that it's kind of a
bit of a buzzword at the moment.
So they're using it from fromthat point of view.
(20:12):
But yeah, as I said, I think,you know, if it isn't if they're
always going to be unethicalbusinesses out there, you know,
who will use the dark patternsand psychology tricks and to
manipulate users? And so, butyeah, it's down to personal
choice. I think it is easy to beethical, if that's the kind of
(20:33):
image that you want to project.
And that's the kind of personyou want to be in business you
want to be it's a choice at theend of the day. Exactly. It's
it's choice. As you said, Idon't know if you want to add
anything more to our discussion.
I concluded with my equations, Ican talk about your marketing
day.
(20:54):
But um, no, I think you'vecovered the main bits, actually.
And I think, yeah, if there'sany other questions, then then
feel free to ask or, you know,feel free to get in touch as
well. Perfect. So thank you verymuch for joining this episode.
It was lovely having you here. Iwon't keep the one that you
(21:14):
said. And to repeat it. Weshouldn't manipulate the
audience just to persuade them.
The goal of marketing isactually to identify and satisfy
customer needs only that and itis easy to be ethical. As you
said. It's, it's always at theend of the day. So thank you
very much. Thank you. It's beena pleasure.
(21:37):
Thank you all for hearing andsee you at our next episode.
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another podcast
episode of Growthtale. Today Ihave with me Louisa Dunbar. And
we will go on to discuss abouthow neuroscience can empower
marketing.
Louisa is the founder of a webdesign agency called Orange
Grove. She has been involved ina Webby World ever since leaving
(00:28):
University design and psychologyor her biggest passion, sees
figuring out ever since whatmakes people think and click and
do the things they do. Andthat's why I have here, here
with us in this episode, I havebeen following share on LinkedIn
and everything he says is trulyviable. So Louisa, can you
(00:49):
please describe your experiencein the digital marketing
industry? What inspired you tobegin a career in web design?
Yeah, so I guess it started offat university, I did an
interactive media productiondegree over here in England. And
it's so that covered, you know,lots of aspects of digital
(01:11):
marketing. It was called NewMedia back then, which was
basically now It means digital.
And yeah, we dabbled a littlebit in web design. And from
there, it just sort offlourished. I, I helped my mom
with her, she had a business andI designed her website for her.
might in fact, I designed threewebsites for her. And then yeah,
(01:35):
I just kind of got hooked. Iloved web design, because it for
me, it encompassed both thedesign side, and also the
technical side. So I like in theearly days, in the early days it
needs. I liked the design andthe development. And so yeah, it
kind of hooked me in from there.
And I have been hooked eversince and grew my business as a
(01:57):
result. So I was employed for alittle while. But then yes, I
just wanted the freedom to kindof follow this path in the way
that I felt it should best go.
Yeah, that's where we are today.
Awesome. Andso we you had a white
background, web design thing?
(02:17):
And how did you found yourself?
experiment again, implementingneural marketing? Wow, yes. So
yeah, I guess it progressed. Soin the early days, I was just
designing websites, for clients.
But I always felt that if you'redesigning something for a
business, it really should getresults, you know, it shouldn't
(02:38):
just look pretty it needs towork for them. And yeah, my
knowledge sort of progresseddown that route, investing more
in the UX side of things userexperience. And, and, you know,
it was all about creatingwebsites that drove those
results that got the achieve thegoals that those businesses were
looking to achieve.
(03:01):
And so it's always been for melooking for the next thing that
can really, really enhance thatfor clients. So UX came first,
then the psychology and then theneuro marketing kind of came
after it was sort of alwayslooking for the next thing
that's going to deliver the bestresults that we can possibly
accomplish. So yeah, that's howit came to pass.
(03:25):
Perfect. So for this episode, Iwant for everyone to be like a
pro guide and to understandneuro marketing, especially for
SMEs and startups,and why it's important for their
marketing strategy. So my firstquestion related to that is,
what is your marketing? Can youexplain to the audience in
simple terms? Yeah, sure. Soneuro marketing or consumer
(03:49):
neurosciences, it's also called.
So in its basic terms, it's thecommercial use of tools used in
neuroscience to betterunderstand consumers responses
to marketing efforts. So inother words, it's another bit
more science backed way ofgathering insight to improve our
marketing efforts. So yeah,basically, scientific market
(04:13):
research. And traditional formsof market research focused more
on the verbal or consciousresponses, such as feedback
surveys and questionnaires thatyou know, our users or target
audience might respond to. Butthese are all conscious things.
However, around 95% of thedecisions we make in life, and
(04:35):
online, are subconscious. So youknow, these feedback surveys and
questionnaires aren't reallyvery accurate because we are
unable to actually articulatethose decisions that we've made
or the reasons behind thosedecisions. So for deeper
insights and more accurateinsights, we need to be able to
access consumers subconsciousand the only way that
(05:00):
We can do that is through theuse of neuroscience tools. And
they allow us to extract datafrom physiological responses
like heart rate, temperature,perspiration brain activity, in
conjunction with the eyetracking. So we know what is
causing reaction at any giventime. And but of course, since
(05:21):
we're focusing on the brainhere, the term neuro marketing
has since also been stretched tokind of encompass not only the
physical research methods togain those insights, but also
the application of behavioralscience or psychology to achieve
desired outcomes. So yeah,you explained it perfectly. We
can say so that neuro marketing,technology helps marketers
(05:46):
understand how the brain issafe, have a specific persona
react to a particular situationusing different resources and
tactics. Other aiming principlesare for new marketing that
someone can apply to retainexisting customers as well as to
acquiring new ones. Yeah, thereare plenty of theories within
(06:07):
behavioral science that can helpus with this, with neuro
marketing, and psychology is allabout putting the users first
and making websites we produceas human centered as possible,
as opposed to business businesscentric. So basically, includes
probably eliminating as muchfriction from the website as
possible. And so in simpleterms, removing anything that
(06:30):
could annoy users and add infeatures which make the journey
as easy as possible, andtherefore, you know, answering
the users questions and preempting them whenever they need.
And, and in terms of retainingcustomers, if the experience is
so seamless and pain free, thatthat should be enough alone to
provide that sticky content, andto get them back repeatedly. But
(06:54):
of course, you know, the offlinecustomer experience has to match
it as well. But yeah, along withthis, there are plenty of you
know, psychological theories,which can help us persuade
users, you know, push them alittle bit more to the point of
conversion or resonate with themon another level. So a couple of
examples might be a scarcityeffect. So this is the theory
(07:17):
that we value goods that are inshort supply over those that,
you know, there might seem to beloads of that. So we don't want
to miss out essentially. So byshowing low stock status on a
product, for example, we'll helpconvert those who might be
worried about missing out. Soit's just about, you know,
pushing them to the point thatthey think we're better do this
(07:38):
now, rather than put it off. Andanother one is authority. So
it's another really strongtheory that we tend to use a lot
on websites. And it's basicallyhuman nature to follow and
believe those who are inauthority, so added endorsements
to your website from those whoare in authority, for example,
(07:58):
you know, doctors or thoughtleaders or influencers.
And they that will help boostyour website's or your
business's credibility.
But of course, you know, wecan't use all the theories, you
know, blanket across alldifferent types of businesses,
we very much need to assess thegoals of what you're trying to
(08:20):
achieve through the website inthe business, who your target
audience is, among other things.
So yeah, we need to remainflexible and kind of look out
book before we provide theanswers.
What are some questions someoneshould ask when trying to use
neuro marketing for the websitesor any other marketing funnel.
(08:41):
So whether you're using neuromarketing, just in terms of the
behavioral science point ofview, or whether you're
interested in actually using thetools to gain insights on your
website users, and then optimizethe user journeys from their
results? It's really importantFirstly, to align yourself with
the business goals. What are youhoping to achieve? And if the
(09:02):
website has clear goals, thenyet neuromarketing can bring
some really big returns. But notonly that, it can provide
insights into your customerbase, which can help all areas
of the business from you know,sales and marketing, you know,
even product and businessdevelopment teams as well. So
it's Yeah, I hope that answers alittle bit. Is it easy to use
(09:27):
neuro marketing to applied to amarketing strategy? Wow.
Effective neuromarketing canonly really be done by people
who have, you know, the properexperience, it might be academic
experience, and you know, beinghaving been trained properly.
The reason for this is that it'sreally, really easy to
incorporate subconscious biasesinto the results of that can
(09:50):
basically lead it to be have theresults completely skewed. And a
lot of it can basically start togive this field of neuro
marketingA real unfair reputation for
inaccuracy if it's not usedcorrectly. But it is a field
that is evolving quickly totechnology is thankfully, you
know, improving each year, andis able to provide us with a lot
(10:12):
of insights. There arebusinesses out there who offer a
service, but they aren't reallyqualified. So it's just about
making sure that you work with areputable supplier, or just make
sure you get the experience andtraining required to be able to
get the results that you'reyou're hoping for. So you said
(10:35):
actually, the most importantthing is to have an academic
background, right? Well, this iswhat this is our interpretation
of it. Not all businesses see itthis way, but from my point of
view, and it's an area which isevolving so much that having
that academic mind within theservice, helps it stay on track
(10:57):
and stops you being biased. withanything that's commercial, any
activity that's commercial, itdoes risk those biases creeping
in, and you're wanting to givethe client what they want, you
know, so to be able to negatethat it's about bringing in
people who don't have any,you know, preconceptions or they
(11:19):
don't have any loyaltiesnecessarily, and to be able to
offer the interpretations andanalysis of the data in the
correct way. So yes, great.
However, we may find someresearch some papers and we try
to implement maybe this theory,like the ones you mentioned
(11:40):
before.
Should we take for granted theresults of this research? Or
should we do of course, anotherA B test, to experiment with our
case, our products? And to seethe reaction of the customers?
Yeah, exactly. Because? Becauseevery if you're seeing a paper
from someone who's done itseparately to you, then yes, you
(12:03):
know, every user is different.
Every customer base isdifferent. Every product is
different. Every user journey isdifferent. Therefore, one size
doesn't fit all, no matter howsimilar you think it might be.
Therefore, yes, it is alwaysimportant to you to do your own
testing, and come up with yourown results. Yeah, great.
Another question I have is howthis fits into the different
(12:26):
stages of their marketingfunnel? For example, do we have
different things we need toconsider whether a customer is
on the awareness phase, or indifferent strategies? Maybe
whether they are in the close ofthe conversion? I see. Yeah. So
there are usually stages thatbusinesses need to go through
before the research phase. Andyeah, and your marketing can be
(12:50):
bought in at different sort ofstages of the marketing funnel,
and also the marketing processas well. But yeah, it can only
really work whenyou're from a website point of
view Anyway, when you're tryingto analyze a journey or a
specific page on a website.
(13:12):
So yes, but before that, otherstages of the marketing funnel,
and you might be able to doincorporate other elements of
your marketing or userexperience, such as UX and
customer workshops, to make surethat everyone within the
(13:32):
business is on the same page,and that goals are really
understood and aligned. And soyes, there is definitely the
potential Do you think it iseasier to practice neuro
marketing before or after thelaunch of a new product or
service or ID or anything? Whenwhat would you suggest someone
to do before they consider usingyour marketing for their brand,
(13:54):
so for the best results, and tomaximize sales or signups and it
should be brought in as part ofthe testing phase prior to
launch really, but it's then youknow, really important to test
and tweak regularly on realcustomers to continually
optimize the performance.
(14:15):
But there are also circumstanceswhere it could be brought in
well after launch to, tooptimize the journey at that
point. It kind of depends when acompany is basically ready to
invest in improvements. A lot ofit comes down to budget or just
knowledge of this field. Can youpredict some trends, innovation
(14:35):
senior marketing for the nextyear maybe or the next years?
Yeah, it is a tricky one is atricky one. But
the in terms of the technologythere's you know, at the moment
we have eg we have GSR galvanicskin response, you know that
(14:55):
with in conjunction with the eyetracking and facial coding, some
of Those need moreimprovement improvements before
they are 100%. There.
So I think, you know,improvements with regards to eg
and how that's interpreted. Andalso facial coding and how
exactly that fits in, is goingto be something that will
(15:20):
come to light more over the nextyear or two. But the big one,
which remains slightly elusiveis fMRI, which is functional MRI
scans. And those are when youknow, for those of you who don't
know, those are when you're inan MRI scanner, you know, like
you would in the hospital. Andyou're asked to respond to
stimuli that you're presentedwith. And they can see your
(15:43):
areas of the brain lighting up.
And, and so that at the momentis obviously not very
accessible. There are not manyof these MRI fMRI scanners
around and and also the onesthat are that are extremely.
Yeah, that's something that Ihope will
(16:06):
be innovated further in the nextyear or two, maybe more than
that just to make it moreaccessible.
Nice. Since the moment you saidabout the example you gave about
the scarcity theory,every then visiting millions of
free soaps and websites, and Isee a lot of people applying
this theory, however, they notunderstand that they're using
(16:30):
neuroscience neuro marketingtheories. And I'm sure they're
not applying it 100% correctly.
Have you experienced any otherexamples like that, that you can
get that you say, Okay, this isa big favor, they need to know,
for example, to enhance this,what are the biggest things you
have seen? Yeah, yeah, thatscarcity is the biggest one,
(16:51):
though. So many, so many people,so many businesses apply that
and falsely, and there have beenrecent examples of brands being
investigated for it as well. Soit's not something you can get
away with.
There's a big example over herethat they were, you know, pulled
out for and have corrected theirways. I think, anyway,
(17:14):
basically, they use the conceptof scarcity, but they it's fake,
it's not true. You know, it'sthey say that there's what, five
people watching this item, we'rereally that's not true. And so
that's how they're using itfalsely, it's fine. If you use
scarcity, you know, morally, andit's correct. And
(17:35):
you know, that that's fine. It'sfine. And I don't have issue
with that. But yes, it's thereare other examples.
And we call these dark patterns.
So there are aside from, youknow, immorally, putting data in
one, which is incorrect. Andthere are things such as ads,
which are disguised to getclicks, confirm shaming, you
(17:58):
know, trying to move out ofopting out, that kind of thing.
And they are tricks, really,they are designed to manipulate
audiences rather than persuadethem, which is what we do as
part of neuro marketing.
Yeah, businesses use them forquick wins, but they really just
(18:20):
need to understand that theywill come at the expense of
loyalty and repeat business. Soin the end,
it's it's their own brand thatthey're doing harm to.
So yeah, it's aside from thatday. There's, aside from the
sort of the psychologicaltactics that are being used.
immorally there's the wholefield of neuro marketing and
(18:42):
subject to that as well. Manypeople, many businesses get
tempted to use neuro marketing,as neuroma as marketing. And so
they throw the term about toimpress and attract clients, but
really, they don't implement itproperly. If at all, the results
aren't great. So it can, youknow, bring this field into
(19:03):
disrepute, which is somethingthat really bugs me,
which is why we came up withUniversity College London, as I
said, the academic side of it,so that, you know, we can prove
everything we do in ethical. Soyeah.
Guys, this leads to my lastquestion, actually, something
that I started using the lastyears and continuously discuss
(19:26):
with other professionals. And Ireally want to hear your
thoughts on that. What ethics insome marketing means to you, do
you think it is says it to beethical in the term marketing
and more specifically in yourmarketing? And yeah, I mean, it
does really, it means a lot tome to be ethical in digital
marketing. And I think it's easyto be ethical, if you have that
(19:50):
inclination.
You know, and so as I said, withregards to using your marketing
as marketing people are justusing that to gain businesses.
When to gain business whenreally they're not actually
implementing your marketing. Butthey know that it's kind of a
bit of a buzzword at the moment.
So they're using it from fromthat point of view.
(20:12):
But yeah, as I said, I think,you know, if it isn't if they're
always going to be unethicalbusinesses out there, you know,
who will use the dark patternsand psychology tricks and to
manipulate users? And so, butyeah, it's down to personal
choice. I think it is easy to beethical, if that's the kind of
(20:33):
image that you want to project.
And that's the kind of personyou want to be in business you
want to be it's a choice at theend of the day. Exactly. It's
it's choice. As you said, Idon't know if you want to add
anything more to our discussion.
I concluded with my equations, Ican talk about your marketing
day.
(20:54):
But um, no, I think you'vecovered the main bits, actually.
And I think, yeah, if there'sany other questions, then then
feel free to ask or, you know,feel free to get in touch as
well. Perfect. So thank you verymuch for joining this episode.
It was lovely having you here. Iwon't keep the one that you
(21:14):
said. And to repeat it. Weshouldn't manipulate the
audience just to persuade them.
The goal of marketing isactually to identify and satisfy
customer needs only that and itis easy to be ethical. As you
said. It's, it's always at theend of the day. So thank you
very much. Thank you. It's beena pleasure.
(21:37):
Thank you all for hearing andsee you at our next episode.
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