June 27, 2021 • 28 mins
Guest Speaker: Clair Byrd
Clair Byrd is a partner and Head of Marketing at Wing Venture Capital, responsible for all internal marketing programs, as well as working side by side with Wing companies on marketing and growth initiatives. Wing leads Seed and Series A financings in transformative enterprise technology companies.
Prior to Wing, Clair led Solutions Marketing at Twilio, an iconic company in the process of radically shifting the way we think about communications, software applications, and how modern enterprises engage customers. Previously, she led marketing at the product design platform InVision, where she and the team grew their install base into the millions and established them as a “household name” in the design space.
In this episode, we have an AWESOME talk about #storytelling and why it should be at the heart of every brand. We discussed the following topics: 1. What is Product-Led Storytelling, and why is it important for any business, 2. What are some strategic steps that businesses should follow when they want to market their product using the art of storytelling, 3. How product-led storytelling fits into the different marketing funnels and the different touchpoints of the customers’ journey, 4. Are any specific skills someone needs to have to create successful storytelling for a brand, 5 Trends & innovations in storytelling, 7. How easy it is to be ethical in digital marketing and, most specifically, in storytelling development.
You can find Clair via email at clair@wing.vc
Websites:
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Eleni Kolliga (00:06):
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode
of growth. We have, togetherwith us Claire bird. She has a
huge experience in contentmarketing and strategy
experience has been involvedwith brand development, UX
research, design and users andrelated content strategies.
Singh has been a senior directorat Twilio, and head of marketing
(00:29):
at innovation in the past. Thankyou, Claire, for joining today
and agreed to discuss about thefuture of product led
storytelling. Thanks so much.
I'm happy to be here. So can youplease describe your experience
in the digital marketingindustry? And what inspired you
to begin a career in this field?
Clair Byrd (00:47):
Sure. So I'd be happy to share my experience
thus far in digital marketing, Ithink, you know, I have a rather
atypical background for adigital marketer in the Silicon
Valley, I actually moved to SanFrancisco about 13 years ago as
a chef. And I actually pull alot of my inspiration for how I
go to market and how I operatein a marketing team from my
experience in the kitchen. Butwhat led me to marketing is when
(01:11):
I got out to the Bay Area, youknow, I experienced all of the
amazing innovation in thestartup. And I was like 2008. So
it was right at the beginning ofthe second boom, for, you know,
app development. And it's reallypre Uber really being a big
thing, pre Airbnb, and I gotinvolved with a software enabled
beverage startup. So they werelooking for someone who was in
(01:33):
the food and beverage industry,but also had the ability to, you
know, work on events for them towrite some copy, maybe even
develop some recipes aroundtheir product. And so I actually
ended up doing my first everreal marketing job that way. And
that company was actually backedby Tony Shea, who is who has
recently departed, CEO ofZappos. And so after I had
(01:55):
gotten exposed to Tony and gotsome experience under my belt
with, with this beverage orsoftware enabled beverage
company, I was able totransition on to Tony's downtown
project, which was a privaterevitalization fund for downtown
Las Vegas, recruiting startupsand small businesses to downtown
Las Vegas. It was a reallyamazing experience, it was
(02:16):
really life changing for me. Andfrom there, I was able to really
transition very easily into techbecause I'd been working on the
ground with technology companiesin Vegas to help them build
early communities understand howto talk to their customer. And
and then I got my first roles intechnology and services go from
there.
Eleni Kolliga (02:34):
Nice. Oh, it technologies, right? No, it's
actually a wow sector since somany technological revolutions,
especially it's our marketing.
But since you mentioned, can youtell me one common thing that
digital marketing has? AndKeaton maybe?
Clair Byrd (02:51):
Absolutely. So what motivates a chef is the very
first bite a guest takes fromtheir first plate. And to the
action to get to that point isactually incredibly complex, you
have to manage the waitstaff youhave to manage six or seven
chefs in the back of house, youhave to have designed the plate
already around how you wantedthat person to experience their
(03:11):
first bite, you had to do all ofthe prep for all of the things
that go on the plate. And thenwhen all of those things are in
place, you actually have to beable to execute with excellence
every single time repeatedlyover and over and over again. So
the process to get there isactually a ton of planning. In
the industry, we call mesunplus, which means everything
in its place. And so the waythat I run marketing teams is
(03:34):
deeply pulled from thatexperience of orchestrating
different things from differentparts of the organization. Also,
that that individual moment,that first moment around the
customer experience isbeautifully designed exactly
what that person wants at thatmoment in time. And repeatable
over and over again.
Eleni Kolliga (03:53):
Wow, actually, it's very good. I could think
that let's dive in now on how tocreate a successful storytelling
for a brand. Can you tell whatis product lead? So telling for
you? How do you define broadlysobering and wise potent for any
(04:13):
business?
Clair Byrd (04:14):
So the product lead storytelling to me is the type
of storytelling that you employwhen you are marketing to a
user, or an operator, someonewho has to engage with your
product every single day. Andwhat that means to me is
explaining and then bringing theoperator or the user along on a
journey about how that productcan positively benefit them in
(04:36):
their professional life. Soproduct lead storytelling to me
means you know, how do I createthis narrative for a user in
every moment and every placethat they're touching my
website, that they're touchingmy product that they're
experiencing my content out inthe, you know, broader business
marketplace, that helps themunderstand how my product that
(04:57):
I'm marketing at that moment intime can make their work life
better can help them getpromoted, and actually giving
them the tooling and theresources to do that through the
product.
Eleni Kolliga (05:07):
Interesting. You said for its user? So do you
think it's easy to have onestorytelling to address all the
needs of the different targetgroups, the different personas.
Clair Byrd (05:20):
So I think that for any, any, any company or any
product that's experiencingproduct, lead growth, or self
service growth, where you cansign up for a product and
instantly start using it, thereis one steel thread that unifies
that audience. And it's themarketers job to figure out what
that steel thread is. So eventhough someone might be have a
(05:41):
slightly different title, orhave a slightly different role,
there's some problem some painthat you need to find the
painkiller for. And so if youcan accurately determine what
the painkiller is in arelatively simple way, then you
can build experiences content,you can build a whole bunch of
stuff around that steel thread,that one single pain point that
(06:01):
draws everyone together intousing the products. Because I
ultimately, I am not a hugebeliever in personas, I actually
don't think that they'reparticularly useful. I am a big
believer in jobs to be done. Sowhat is the job that needs to be
done by the person who issigning up for your product, and
that can be so differentdepending on what what product
it is, obviously, but it'sprobably similar based on who is
(06:24):
actually using your product orwhat so for example, you know,
Twilio is quote, unquote, thedeveloper company. But there are
tons and tons and tons and tonsof different types of
developers, different languages,different communities, front end
back end, you know, there are aton of different segments or
personas of developer, but whatwhat brought all of those
developers together is that theyneeded to put communications
(06:45):
into their product. And you cantell a story about how to put
communications into your productthat will appeal to every type
of developer who needs to solvethat problem, or has that job to
be done. So when I think aboutdeveloping stories, or
narratives around a product,it's more so around the job to
be done, or the the type of taskor, or behavior that that user
(07:07):
needs to accomplish in thatmoment in time, as opposed to
who they are, just but I findtitles to be kind of not very
useful. You know, like, if youare tasked with digital
transformation in a company,that could be a whole host of
stuff. And really what is reallydriving you to seek out and
purchase a product is a specificproblem.
Eleni Kolliga (07:28):
So to make it even more practical, okay, you
name or describe there. So basicsteps, or the framework that
business should follow when theywant to market using the art of
storytelling.
Clair Byrd (07:40):
Sure, so I have a three step framework for this.
Step one is learn. So whenyou're first launching a new
product, or you're launching anew way to go to market, the
programs that you should developas a marketer, or should be 100%
focused on learning about yourtarget in this in this example,
(08:00):
your target user or your targetoperator, what things are they
struggling with? How do theytalk about those problems, and
then take all of thatinformation in and be able to
pattern match and start tonarrow down into themes? What
are those pain points are thosejobs to be done that they're
trying that they're trying to doby coming to your product? So
(08:21):
that's, and so that's probably,you know, as your first growing
your first 100,000 users, and,and then it's teach. So like
step two is teach. So once youhave very clearly laid out like,
okay, we know that the themesthat our our install base, or
our user base are strugglingwith our x, y, and z, then you
(08:41):
teach through those themes, likeokay, how do I teach the rest of
the world who are alsostruggling with themes X, Y, and
Z, to solve them based on whatwe have learned historically.
And then three is scale. Soafter you have been able to
successfully create a loop byteaching people, bringing them
into your ecosystem of contentof product, product, education,
(09:02):
have documentation of everythingthat they need to be successful
in your product. How do youautomate all of that? So that's
the scale part. And I feel likemany marketers get it a little
backwards, they start with thechannel. So like, how do we blow
it up through Google ads,instead of you know, really
focusing on that core message?
And that core story or thosecore thematic pillars in their
(09:24):
marketing programs?
Eleni Kolliga (09:28):
Awesome. Now, from your experience, what do
you think makes storiesstorytelling successful and
appealing to the customers? Iknow, for instance, that I have
read that a successfulstorytelling should have three
elements, a character, aconflict and a solution? Is it
something more something else?
Clair Byrd (09:48):
Well, I think that I think why storytelling is
compelling to a user, especiallyin a b2b environment is because
it creates emotional tension andan emotional Raw, because in
this example the character isthe person is the character is
the user, you have to createstories around an individual
(10:08):
person that they can that theyresonate with that have
resonance with your audience. Sowhile I agree that you know, you
need a character you need, Idon't know, what did you say?
You said character? Yes,character. So I think i think
that i think that while thestructure is accurate, one of
the things that many people missis the emotional draw. And
(10:32):
that's why I think that reallyfocusing on learning what the
tension or the pain in the exam,the original user set, or the
original operators, daily work,life is really important because
that pain is going to create theemotional connection to the
solution, right. So like, if youcan really nail a solution to
(10:55):
that pain point and that jobthat they are trying to do, then
you create an emotional level,an emotional relationship with
that user that creates, youknow, a whole bunch of force
multiplying stuff for thebusiness, it creates net
promoters that are incredibly,wildly enthusiastic, it creates
opportunities to tell reallyauthentic customer stories that
(11:17):
are meaningful, and also at theright level for the the type of
marketing that you're doing froma product lead growth
perspective, it gives you theopportunity to create content
around those journeys and thoseexperiences. And it allows you
to tap into the network effect.
So I mean, word of mouth isstill the number one channel for
all b2b products. And if youhave an incredibly emotionally
(11:39):
invested audience, it's mucheasier to leverage that for the
network effect and referringpeople into the brand ecosystem,
then if you didn't have it,where you know, like, if you
don't have that emotionalconnection, you just you're not
going to be able to get as muchout of your audience as if you
did.
Eleni Kolliga (12:00):
And since we are in them Topeka about the
connection between customers andthe brand, how do you think
product lifecycle thing feedsinto the different marketing
funnels and the different datapoints of the customer journey.
Clair Byrd (12:15):
So I, I believe that the story is the heart of all
marketing, full stop. So I thinkthat if you are, you know, if
you are telling a differentstory, in your advertising
campaigns, then you are tellingin your emails, or you're
telling in your first call deckfrom your sales organization or
(12:36):
your blog posts, then you'refailing, because you have not
created, like I said earlier,you're not creating this
experience, that is perfect,right? Like every single thing
needs to lead to the other. Andif it's broken or fragmented,
you actually reduce the level oftrust that you have with that
person. So the storytelling is apiece, it's a piece that informs
(13:00):
the design of every actual assetand every single thing that you
will put into every singlemarketing channel. Does that
make sense? Yeah, I think that'sI want to ask something more. So
it takes more importance in theawareness stage? Is it something
that influences the same theconversions, the loyalty, the
advocacy? That's from what fromwhat you're saying, This is what
(13:23):
I'm getting? That it's a piecethat fits everywhere?
Yes. So yes, it is a piece thatfits everywhere, because we have
anchored around the actualfunction of the product, right?
The the job that we're doing, sowe are going to draw someone in
from an awareness perspective,with the pain point and the
(13:44):
solution to that pain, we'regoing to convert them into the
product by prompt giving them apromised land a direction to go
to actually solve that, thatsolve that pain point and do
that job effectively. And we'regoing to retain them by
continuously investing in thatjob to be done and giving them
more and more and moreopportunities to be
(14:06):
professionally successfulsolving that problem. Perfect.
So
Eleni Kolliga (14:09):
it's, as you said, the heart of the brand
that everyone should know aboutthat. Another thing I want to
discuss, it's actually a commonphrase, whoever controls the
narrative controls the people.
They say, I want to adapt thisone and make it whoever
developed the storytellinginfluences the audience. Do you
think there are specific skillsyou need to have in order to be
(14:32):
able to create successfulstorytelling for brands? Yes,
Clair Byrd (14:39):
I'm listening.
Number one skill to tell goodstories is to listen. I think
that you know, the trap thatmany marketers fall into,
especially many productmarketers fall into is trying to
force a narrative onto acustomer segment. They take what
they think the customer wants orneeds and they turn it into a
messaging framework, and theyRoll it out. And then they
(15:00):
wonder why it's not resonatingwith that potential customer
that user. It's because theynever bothered to listen to what
the customer actually wanted outof that product or feature and
how they wanted to use it andhow they talk about it. Because
the language that you use is soimportant. Like the language,
even if the product is the exactsame, the language that someone
is going to use in differentverticals is going to be
(15:21):
different. So like the way thatyou For example, at Twilio, when
we rolled out vertical segments,so we rolled out financial
services, healthcare, andretail, all the products are
ultimately the same, it's stillall messaging, it's still all
appointment reminders of stillall the same stuff. However, the
language that we use in eachvertical is wildly different,
how we talk about the feature,how we talk about the value,
(15:43):
what it does, how it does itcompletely different. And we we
got to that conclusion, because,you know, for a long time, we
were trying to force what wethought the names of the things
should be, instead of justlistening to what the people who
are going to be implementingthose things or buying those
things actually called them. Andas soon as we just started
calling the stuff, the thingsthat the people were already
(16:05):
using huge change in in in howthose products got adopted and
how they got sold. So listeningis the number one skill for
telling good stories. I think,from the perspective of other
skills, you have to be a decentwriter, but I don't think that
that means being like havingperfect grammar or being an
(16:26):
amazing, you know, command ofthe English language, it really
means having strong rhetoric. Solike understanding the problem
solution, and understanding thepain and the pain and the
painkiller and understanding howthose things relate to an
individual customer, individualusers state of being. If you can
do that well, and simply thenyou'll tell great stories. And
(16:50):
as far as I as I always tellyounger, in career marketers,
when they're learning how to dothis to read a whole bunch of
fiction, to read fiction books,because that will make you a
better writer than any writingcourse on business writing than
any book on rhetoric, you willbecome a much better writer, if
you just read fiction.
(17:12):
That's very interesting,actually. Does it work? The
same? Maybe with watching moviesor fiction?
You know, I I don't know I am aI am biased towards reading
obviously. But I think it couldit's it gives you a you know,
the fiction and creating a worldright is a deeply creative
(17:34):
process. And you're actuallydesigning characters, you're
you're you're deeplyunderstanding how the
motivations of people affect theoutcomes of stuff. And so if you
just and by reading, youobviously see how those things
are constructed in sentences. SoI think that, you know, reading
is obviously going to give you alittle bit more of a leg up if
you're writing a lot. But I cansee how you know, if you're
(17:57):
paying attention to thestructure of a film, if you're
paying attention to how, youknow, what happens to a
character affects what they do,and then what they and how they
make decisions, then that youcan get the same benefit.
Eleni Kolliga (18:08):
I did this question because it was like
hearing my students doing thesame question. Some of the story
paintings maybe I have createdin the past sexual abuse, it was
from a totally differentindustry in the different
sector, maybe discussion withfriends that they don't have
ideal digital marketing. I haveread somewhere that you will not
(18:30):
find the answer on your screen,go outside take a walk or read
the book or fiction book.
Anything else actually. Can youthink the subject now if about
talking about the future, whichis actually in the title of this
podcast episode? Can you predictsome trends, maybe some
innovations in storytelling?
Clair Byrd (18:53):
So obviously, we've already seen a big shift in
modality you know, the theexplosion of podcasts is
relatively new thing, it'sprobably within within the last
couple of years, I think thatwe'll probably continue to see
changes in modality where we'regoing to start seeing I've
started to see interestingfeatures on on a blog experience
(19:14):
like on blog websites, wherethere's a read this to me type
of button instead of you havingyou read through the whole
thing. I think that you know,natural language processing and
real time transcription is goingto make a lot of stories much
more accessible to the rest ofthe world. I think that
internationalization and the thethe localization of content is
(19:34):
going to be a huge motivatingfactor for many marketers
because English is not enough,especially in today's
environment. I also think thatwe will see more and more
development of a quote unquote,lifestyle brand. And I think
that that's due to like thecommodity commoditization of the
(19:55):
SAS space. There are so manycompetitors and so many
different things that the waythat you really differently is
through your brand as opposed tothrough your product. And so I
think that we will see morecompanies kind of leaning into
being the cool hip thing, asopposed to necessarily talking
about how or why their productis better. Like I use this
(20:15):
analogy, when I talk about thiswhere, you know, like you choose
a toothpaste because you have anemotional connection to the
brand, not because the productis better, right. So like, if I
like, if you're like me, I'veused the same brand of
toothpaste for like 15 years.
And when I go in and look, gointo the drugstore and look at
the wall of toothpaste, like I'msure that there are better ones,
right. But I always get the sametoothpaste because I have an
(20:36):
emotional connection to thebrand. And because there are so
many options, that's how I makea choice, that's how we make a
purchase decision is what kindof brand I want to be affiliated
with, in my lifestyle, asopposed to who has the best
features or who's you know, thethe newest technology, like
that's not actually how manypeople make decisions today,
even in the b2b space. And thishas to do with the
(20:56):
consumerization of the b2bmarket where, you know, like
apple and iPhone and Googlematerial design and all of these
giant, gigantic, disruptiveunicorn brands that are
primarily b2c companies changedthe perception of what it means
to use and interact with adigital product. And that
(21:16):
becomes the baseline ofexpectation for all other
applications. So if you see ifyou look at how many b2b
applications are now beingdesigned and built, you have a
ton of influence from theconsumer space, you have
gamification you have likedifferent, much more, much more
heavy focus on user experienceand UI design that's modern and
(21:39):
not garbage. Whereas like muchenterprise technology, up until,
you know, like 2012, was reallyit was really terribly designed,
because that wasn't a criticalpiece of their their sale. But
now you have companies where,and you have like companies like
Twilio or envision where they'vebecome so ubiquitous in the
operator community that thedesigner or the, the developer
(22:02):
can actually shut down the deal,if they don't like the product
at this point. So there's beenthere's been a huge shift away
from feature functionality andtalking about your features and
the value of them to talkingabout how your product affects
someone's life and becoming alifestyle organization, I can i
think that that will continue tohappen. especially in light of
(22:23):
COVID, in light of how thingsare going in the world. I think
that you know, like, why do youpick zoom over GoToMeeting? Why
do you pick like, why do youpick the things that you do to
run your day to day life? It'sprobably because you have a
brand affiliation or a desire tobe associated with that brand,
as opposed to, you know, the thetiny details, the changes and
(22:46):
features that that product mightoffer?
Eleni Kolliga (22:51):
Perfect. So last question, here is something that
I study the last years andconcern me a lot and discuss
with other fellow marketers. Iwould love to hear your thoughts
about that. What ethics in datamarketing means to you? Do you
think it is easy to be ethicalin digital marketing, and more
(23:11):
specifically in storytelling?
Clair Byrd (23:14):
So I think that it is very easy to be ethical. But
it's hard to sell it to otherpeople. So I think that if you
have a set of a set of values,it's very easy to say yes or no
to something as a marketer, ifyou just put on the hat of the
user and say what I as the userlike to receive the thing that
I'm making right now? Yes, no.
If you say no, then you probablyshouldn't do the thing. Like
(23:36):
it's very, I think, in myopinion, very easy to be
ethical, as an individual, likeon your own. I think that it's
very hard often to sell that toyour executive leadership, or to
even sometimes even yourteammates, because they're going
to look at, well, if will thisget us a better outcome? If yes,
then we'll do it. However, Ipersonally think that that's
(23:56):
wrong, because that degradestrust with your user community,
it degrades trust with thefuture customer that you might
have. And I think that you know,bait and switch tactics or being
disingenuous about what yourproduct does, or what's in the
product today, it can really,really degrade trust for a
customer. So I think that beingreally hyper focused on
(24:19):
developing programs that arehighly performance based on what
the user actually wants, and youcan if you can prove that it's
what the user actually once andyou can prove that doing things
right is more effective thandoing things the easy way.
That's how I have always solddoing this to my leadership. So
and making good decisions andnot spamming people with email
(24:42):
and not putting a whole bunch ofstuff that's like weird or bad
into an ad word or the ad unitor like trying and actually
trying to be very authentic towhat what the product does, who
it's for, and and what the valueof it is. And like it's always
trust based relationship likeLike I was saying earlier with
the, the my considerations aboutthe future, we'll see more and
(25:04):
more brands leaning into being alifecycle or lifestyle brand.
You can't do that without deeptrust based relationships. And
if you break that trust, it'svery hard to get back. So that's
how I've always justified havinga or not being gross, don't not
not gross marketing, to myleadership,
age through trust is somethingthat is not given in, it's not
(25:28):
guaranteed in an onlineenvironment. Do you think we
took a wrong growth in digitalmarketing, about ethics, maybe
the last years,I think that there will always
be bad actors with anyinnovation, right? Like the the
level of specificity that youcan get with the data available
to us, as digital marketerstoday can be used for good. And
I think that a great example ofthat is Instagram, right?
(25:52):
Instagram has totally nailed,using your data to serve you ads
that are meaningful andinteresting to your life, like
the conversion rate on Instagramads is incredibly high, because
they don't show you garbage,they have a very clear set of
rules about how you can use thedata. And like they have a clear
terms of service. If you if youbreak the rules, then you get
the ban hammer really fast. AndI think that, you know if
(26:15):
without that kind of ethics atthe top like with with the
actual leadership of the companythat you're advertising on,
you'll have a problem. But Idon't think that necessarily we
took a wrong turn. As digitalmarketers, I think that there
are always bad actors and thebad actors have been given a
bigger platform. So I think thatit's even more important for
(26:35):
especially younger and careermarketers to stand up for what
is right and stand and rememberthat there are humans and people
with feelings and families onthe other end of the stuff that
we are we're showing them. Andand to always be very thoughtful
and intentional about if that ifif the message that we are
showing to the person in thatmoment of time is true. Is is
(26:57):
authentic, and is actually realfor them. But I don't
necessarily think that we as anindustry have taken a wrong
turn, I think data can beincredibly powerful and actually
create better experiences forpeople. And and like I would
much rather be, you know,targeted if I'm going to get
advertised to at least make itgood, right? So if and I think
(27:17):
that that's a great way to greatway to think about your own your
own programs, like if I'm goingto advertise to someone, it's my
responsibility to at least makeit good. So I think that using
the tools that we have to makethose experiences really
amazing, is a is a great way toleverage the innovations in the
space that we've had. And it'sup to us to you know, self
(27:40):
govern that behaviorand be emphatic. Perfect. Ah,
thank you for sharing yourthoughts on that. I really
appreciate it. So and thank youfor joining this episode and
sharing with the audience, yourexperience, the deeps
strategies. What I think is, forme, the most important you say
(28:06):
this lesson to learn step numberone, before anything before we
start using the art ofstorytelling, to understand the
audience the pain point beforedoing anything. And thank you
for this very valuablediscussion. So welcome. Thanks
for having me. Thank youeveryone, and we will talk again
(28:29):
in the next podcast. Excellent
Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode
of growth. We have, togetherwith us Claire bird. She has a
huge experience in contentmarketing and strategy
experience has been involvedwith brand development, UX
research, design and users andrelated content strategies.
Singh has been a senior directorat Twilio, and head of marketing
(00:29):
at innovation in the past. Thankyou, Claire, for joining today
and agreed to discuss about thefuture of product led
storytelling. Thanks so much.
I'm happy to be here. So can youplease describe your experience
in the digital marketingindustry? And what inspired you
to begin a career in this field?
Clair Byrd (00:47):
Sure. So I'd be happy to share my experience
thus far in digital marketing, Ithink, you know, I have a rather
atypical background for adigital marketer in the Silicon
Valley, I actually moved to SanFrancisco about 13 years ago as
a chef. And I actually pull alot of my inspiration for how I
go to market and how I operatein a marketing team from my
experience in the kitchen. Butwhat led me to marketing is when
(01:11):
I got out to the Bay Area, youknow, I experienced all of the
amazing innovation in thestartup. And I was like 2008. So
it was right at the beginning ofthe second boom, for, you know,
app development. And it's reallypre Uber really being a big
thing, pre Airbnb, and I gotinvolved with a software enabled
beverage startup. So they werelooking for someone who was in
(01:33):
the food and beverage industry,but also had the ability to, you
know, work on events for them towrite some copy, maybe even
develop some recipes aroundtheir product. And so I actually
ended up doing my first everreal marketing job that way. And
that company was actually backedby Tony Shea, who is who has
recently departed, CEO ofZappos. And so after I had
(01:55):
gotten exposed to Tony and gotsome experience under my belt
with, with this beverage orsoftware enabled beverage
company, I was able totransition on to Tony's downtown
project, which was a privaterevitalization fund for downtown
Las Vegas, recruiting startupsand small businesses to downtown
Las Vegas. It was a reallyamazing experience, it was
(02:16):
really life changing for me. Andfrom there, I was able to really
transition very easily into techbecause I'd been working on the
ground with technology companiesin Vegas to help them build
early communities understand howto talk to their customer. And
and then I got my first roles intechnology and services go from
there.
Eleni Kolliga (02:34):
Nice. Oh, it technologies, right? No, it's
actually a wow sector since somany technological revolutions,
especially it's our marketing.
But since you mentioned, can youtell me one common thing that
digital marketing has? AndKeaton maybe?
Clair Byrd (02:51):
Absolutely. So what motivates a chef is the very
first bite a guest takes fromtheir first plate. And to the
action to get to that point isactually incredibly complex, you
have to manage the waitstaff youhave to manage six or seven
chefs in the back of house, youhave to have designed the plate
already around how you wantedthat person to experience their
(03:11):
first bite, you had to do all ofthe prep for all of the things
that go on the plate. And thenwhen all of those things are in
place, you actually have to beable to execute with excellence
every single time repeatedlyover and over and over again. So
the process to get there isactually a ton of planning. In
the industry, we call mesunplus, which means everything
in its place. And so the waythat I run marketing teams is
(03:34):
deeply pulled from thatexperience of orchestrating
different things from differentparts of the organization. Also,
that that individual moment,that first moment around the
customer experience isbeautifully designed exactly
what that person wants at thatmoment in time. And repeatable
over and over again.
Eleni Kolliga (03:53):
Wow, actually, it's very good. I could think
that let's dive in now on how tocreate a successful storytelling
for a brand. Can you tell whatis product lead? So telling for
you? How do you define broadlysobering and wise potent for any
(04:13):
business?
Clair Byrd (04:14):
So the product lead storytelling to me is the type
of storytelling that you employwhen you are marketing to a
user, or an operator, someonewho has to engage with your
product every single day. Andwhat that means to me is
explaining and then bringing theoperator or the user along on a
journey about how that productcan positively benefit them in
(04:36):
their professional life. Soproduct lead storytelling to me
means you know, how do I createthis narrative for a user in
every moment and every placethat they're touching my
website, that they're touchingmy product that they're
experiencing my content out inthe, you know, broader business
marketplace, that helps themunderstand how my product that
(04:57):
I'm marketing at that moment intime can make their work life
better can help them getpromoted, and actually giving
them the tooling and theresources to do that through the
product.
Eleni Kolliga (05:07):
Interesting. You said for its user? So do you
think it's easy to have onestorytelling to address all the
needs of the different targetgroups, the different personas.
Clair Byrd (05:20):
So I think that for any, any, any company or any
product that's experiencingproduct, lead growth, or self
service growth, where you cansign up for a product and
instantly start using it, thereis one steel thread that unifies
that audience. And it's themarketers job to figure out what
that steel thread is. So eventhough someone might be have a
(05:41):
slightly different title, orhave a slightly different role,
there's some problem some painthat you need to find the
painkiller for. And so if youcan accurately determine what
the painkiller is in arelatively simple way, then you
can build experiences content,you can build a whole bunch of
stuff around that steel thread,that one single pain point that
(06:01):
draws everyone together intousing the products. Because I
ultimately, I am not a hugebeliever in personas, I actually
don't think that they'reparticularly useful. I am a big
believer in jobs to be done. Sowhat is the job that needs to be
done by the person who issigning up for your product, and
that can be so differentdepending on what what product
it is, obviously, but it'sprobably similar based on who is
(06:24):
actually using your product orwhat so for example, you know,
Twilio is quote, unquote, thedeveloper company. But there are
tons and tons and tons and tonsof different types of
developers, different languages,different communities, front end
back end, you know, there are aton of different segments or
personas of developer, but whatwhat brought all of those
developers together is that theyneeded to put communications
(06:45):
into their product. And you cantell a story about how to put
communications into your productthat will appeal to every type
of developer who needs to solvethat problem, or has that job to
be done. So when I think aboutdeveloping stories, or
narratives around a product,it's more so around the job to
be done, or the the type of taskor, or behavior that that user
(07:07):
needs to accomplish in thatmoment in time, as opposed to
who they are, just but I findtitles to be kind of not very
useful. You know, like, if youare tasked with digital
transformation in a company,that could be a whole host of
stuff. And really what is reallydriving you to seek out and
purchase a product is a specificproblem.
Eleni Kolliga (07:28):
So to make it even more practical, okay, you
name or describe there. So basicsteps, or the framework that
business should follow when theywant to market using the art of
storytelling.
Clair Byrd (07:40):
Sure, so I have a three step framework for this.
Step one is learn. So whenyou're first launching a new
product, or you're launching anew way to go to market, the
programs that you should developas a marketer, or should be 100%
focused on learning about yourtarget in this in this example,
(08:00):
your target user or your targetoperator, what things are they
struggling with? How do theytalk about those problems, and
then take all of thatinformation in and be able to
pattern match and start tonarrow down into themes? What
are those pain points are thosejobs to be done that they're
trying that they're trying to doby coming to your product? So
(08:21):
that's, and so that's probably,you know, as your first growing
your first 100,000 users, and,and then it's teach. So like
step two is teach. So once youhave very clearly laid out like,
okay, we know that the themesthat our our install base, or
our user base are strugglingwith our x, y, and z, then you
(08:41):
teach through those themes, likeokay, how do I teach the rest of
the world who are alsostruggling with themes X, Y, and
Z, to solve them based on whatwe have learned historically.
And then three is scale. Soafter you have been able to
successfully create a loop byteaching people, bringing them
into your ecosystem of contentof product, product, education,
(09:02):
have documentation of everythingthat they need to be successful
in your product. How do youautomate all of that? So that's
the scale part. And I feel likemany marketers get it a little
backwards, they start with thechannel. So like, how do we blow
it up through Google ads,instead of you know, really
focusing on that core message?
And that core story or thosecore thematic pillars in their
(09:24):
marketing programs?
Eleni Kolliga (09:28):
Awesome. Now, from your experience, what do
you think makes storiesstorytelling successful and
appealing to the customers? Iknow, for instance, that I have
read that a successfulstorytelling should have three
elements, a character, aconflict and a solution? Is it
something more something else?
Clair Byrd (09:48):
Well, I think that I think why storytelling is
compelling to a user, especiallyin a b2b environment is because
it creates emotional tension andan emotional Raw, because in
this example the character isthe person is the character is
the user, you have to createstories around an individual
(10:08):
person that they can that theyresonate with that have
resonance with your audience. Sowhile I agree that you know, you
need a character you need, Idon't know, what did you say?
You said character? Yes,character. So I think i think
that i think that while thestructure is accurate, one of
the things that many people missis the emotional draw. And
(10:32):
that's why I think that reallyfocusing on learning what the
tension or the pain in the exam,the original user set, or the
original operators, daily work,life is really important because
that pain is going to create theemotional connection to the
solution, right. So like, if youcan really nail a solution to
(10:55):
that pain point and that jobthat they are trying to do, then
you create an emotional level,an emotional relationship with
that user that creates, youknow, a whole bunch of force
multiplying stuff for thebusiness, it creates net
promoters that are incredibly,wildly enthusiastic, it creates
opportunities to tell reallyauthentic customer stories that
(11:17):
are meaningful, and also at theright level for the the type of
marketing that you're doing froma product lead growth
perspective, it gives you theopportunity to create content
around those journeys and thoseexperiences. And it allows you
to tap into the network effect.
So I mean, word of mouth isstill the number one channel for
all b2b products. And if youhave an incredibly emotionally
(11:39):
invested audience, it's mucheasier to leverage that for the
network effect and referringpeople into the brand ecosystem,
then if you didn't have it,where you know, like, if you
don't have that emotionalconnection, you just you're not
going to be able to get as muchout of your audience as if you
did.
Eleni Kolliga (12:00):
And since we are in them Topeka about the
connection between customers andthe brand, how do you think
product lifecycle thing feedsinto the different marketing
funnels and the different datapoints of the customer journey.
Clair Byrd (12:15):
So I, I believe that the story is the heart of all
marketing, full stop. So I thinkthat if you are, you know, if
you are telling a differentstory, in your advertising
campaigns, then you are tellingin your emails, or you're
telling in your first call deckfrom your sales organization or
(12:36):
your blog posts, then you'refailing, because you have not
created, like I said earlier,you're not creating this
experience, that is perfect,right? Like every single thing
needs to lead to the other. Andif it's broken or fragmented,
you actually reduce the level oftrust that you have with that
person. So the storytelling is apiece, it's a piece that informs
(13:00):
the design of every actual assetand every single thing that you
will put into every singlemarketing channel. Does that
make sense? Yeah, I think that'sI want to ask something more. So
it takes more importance in theawareness stage? Is it something
that influences the same theconversions, the loyalty, the
advocacy? That's from what fromwhat you're saying, This is what
(13:23):
I'm getting? That it's a piecethat fits everywhere?
Yes. So yes, it is a piece thatfits everywhere, because we have
anchored around the actualfunction of the product, right?
The the job that we're doing, sowe are going to draw someone in
from an awareness perspective,with the pain point and the
(13:44):
solution to that pain, we'regoing to convert them into the
product by prompt giving them apromised land a direction to go
to actually solve that, thatsolve that pain point and do
that job effectively. And we'regoing to retain them by
continuously investing in thatjob to be done and giving them
more and more and moreopportunities to be
(14:06):
professionally successfulsolving that problem. Perfect.
So
Eleni Kolliga (14:09):
it's, as you said, the heart of the brand
that everyone should know aboutthat. Another thing I want to
discuss, it's actually a commonphrase, whoever controls the
narrative controls the people.
They say, I want to adapt thisone and make it whoever
developed the storytellinginfluences the audience. Do you
think there are specific skillsyou need to have in order to be
(14:32):
able to create successfulstorytelling for brands? Yes,
Clair Byrd (14:39):
I'm listening.
Number one skill to tell goodstories is to listen. I think
that you know, the trap thatmany marketers fall into,
especially many productmarketers fall into is trying to
force a narrative onto acustomer segment. They take what
they think the customer wants orneeds and they turn it into a
messaging framework, and theyRoll it out. And then they
(15:00):
wonder why it's not resonatingwith that potential customer
that user. It's because theynever bothered to listen to what
the customer actually wanted outof that product or feature and
how they wanted to use it andhow they talk about it. Because
the language that you use is soimportant. Like the language,
even if the product is the exactsame, the language that someone
is going to use in differentverticals is going to be
(15:21):
different. So like the way thatyou For example, at Twilio, when
we rolled out vertical segments,so we rolled out financial
services, healthcare, andretail, all the products are
ultimately the same, it's stillall messaging, it's still all
appointment reminders of stillall the same stuff. However, the
language that we use in eachvertical is wildly different,
how we talk about the feature,how we talk about the value,
(15:43):
what it does, how it does itcompletely different. And we we
got to that conclusion, because,you know, for a long time, we
were trying to force what wethought the names of the things
should be, instead of justlistening to what the people who
are going to be implementingthose things or buying those
things actually called them. Andas soon as we just started
calling the stuff, the thingsthat the people were already
(16:05):
using huge change in in in howthose products got adopted and
how they got sold. So listeningis the number one skill for
telling good stories. I think,from the perspective of other
skills, you have to be a decentwriter, but I don't think that
that means being like havingperfect grammar or being an
(16:26):
amazing, you know, command ofthe English language, it really
means having strong rhetoric. Solike understanding the problem
solution, and understanding thepain and the pain and the
painkiller and understanding howthose things relate to an
individual customer, individualusers state of being. If you can
do that well, and simply thenyou'll tell great stories. And
(16:50):
as far as I as I always tellyounger, in career marketers,
when they're learning how to dothis to read a whole bunch of
fiction, to read fiction books,because that will make you a
better writer than any writingcourse on business writing than
any book on rhetoric, you willbecome a much better writer, if
you just read fiction.
(17:12):
That's very interesting,actually. Does it work? The
same? Maybe with watching moviesor fiction?
You know, I I don't know I am aI am biased towards reading
obviously. But I think it couldit's it gives you a you know,
the fiction and creating a worldright is a deeply creative
(17:34):
process. And you're actuallydesigning characters, you're
you're you're deeplyunderstanding how the
motivations of people affect theoutcomes of stuff. And so if you
just and by reading, youobviously see how those things
are constructed in sentences. SoI think that, you know, reading
is obviously going to give you alittle bit more of a leg up if
you're writing a lot. But I cansee how you know, if you're
(17:57):
paying attention to thestructure of a film, if you're
paying attention to how, youknow, what happens to a
character affects what they do,and then what they and how they
make decisions, then that youcan get the same benefit.
Eleni Kolliga (18:08):
I did this question because it was like
hearing my students doing thesame question. Some of the story
paintings maybe I have createdin the past sexual abuse, it was
from a totally differentindustry in the different
sector, maybe discussion withfriends that they don't have
ideal digital marketing. I haveread somewhere that you will not
(18:30):
find the answer on your screen,go outside take a walk or read
the book or fiction book.
Anything else actually. Can youthink the subject now if about
talking about the future, whichis actually in the title of this
podcast episode? Can you predictsome trends, maybe some
innovations in storytelling?
Clair Byrd (18:53):
So obviously, we've already seen a big shift in
modality you know, the theexplosion of podcasts is
relatively new thing, it'sprobably within within the last
couple of years, I think thatwe'll probably continue to see
changes in modality where we'regoing to start seeing I've
started to see interestingfeatures on on a blog experience
(19:14):
like on blog websites, wherethere's a read this to me type
of button instead of you havingyou read through the whole
thing. I think that you know,natural language processing and
real time transcription is goingto make a lot of stories much
more accessible to the rest ofthe world. I think that
internationalization and the thethe localization of content is
(19:34):
going to be a huge motivatingfactor for many marketers
because English is not enough,especially in today's
environment. I also think thatwe will see more and more
development of a quote unquote,lifestyle brand. And I think
that that's due to like thecommodity commoditization of the
(19:55):
SAS space. There are so manycompetitors and so many
different things that the waythat you really differently is
through your brand as opposed tothrough your product. And so I
think that we will see morecompanies kind of leaning into
being the cool hip thing, asopposed to necessarily talking
about how or why their productis better. Like I use this
(20:15):
analogy, when I talk about thiswhere, you know, like you choose
a toothpaste because you have anemotional connection to the
brand, not because the productis better, right. So like, if I
like, if you're like me, I'veused the same brand of
toothpaste for like 15 years.
And when I go in and look, gointo the drugstore and look at
the wall of toothpaste, like I'msure that there are better ones,
right. But I always get the sametoothpaste because I have an
(20:36):
emotional connection to thebrand. And because there are so
many options, that's how I makea choice, that's how we make a
purchase decision is what kindof brand I want to be affiliated
with, in my lifestyle, asopposed to who has the best
features or who's you know, thethe newest technology, like
that's not actually how manypeople make decisions today,
even in the b2b space. And thishas to do with the
(20:56):
consumerization of the b2bmarket where, you know, like
apple and iPhone and Googlematerial design and all of these
giant, gigantic, disruptiveunicorn brands that are
primarily b2c companies changedthe perception of what it means
to use and interact with adigital product. And that
(21:16):
becomes the baseline ofexpectation for all other
applications. So if you see ifyou look at how many b2b
applications are now beingdesigned and built, you have a
ton of influence from theconsumer space, you have
gamification you have likedifferent, much more, much more
heavy focus on user experienceand UI design that's modern and
(21:39):
not garbage. Whereas like muchenterprise technology, up until,
you know, like 2012, was reallyit was really terribly designed,
because that wasn't a criticalpiece of their their sale. But
now you have companies where,and you have like companies like
Twilio or envision where they'vebecome so ubiquitous in the
operator community that thedesigner or the, the developer
(22:02):
can actually shut down the deal,if they don't like the product
at this point. So there's beenthere's been a huge shift away
from feature functionality andtalking about your features and
the value of them to talkingabout how your product affects
someone's life and becoming alifestyle organization, I can i
think that that will continue tohappen. especially in light of
(22:23):
COVID, in light of how thingsare going in the world. I think
that you know, like, why do youpick zoom over GoToMeeting? Why
do you pick like, why do youpick the things that you do to
run your day to day life? It'sprobably because you have a
brand affiliation or a desire tobe associated with that brand,
as opposed to, you know, the thetiny details, the changes and
(22:46):
features that that product mightoffer?
Eleni Kolliga (22:51):
Perfect. So last question, here is something that
I study the last years andconcern me a lot and discuss
with other fellow marketers. Iwould love to hear your thoughts
about that. What ethics in datamarketing means to you? Do you
think it is easy to be ethicalin digital marketing, and more
(23:11):
specifically in storytelling?
Clair Byrd (23:14):
So I think that it is very easy to be ethical. But
it's hard to sell it to otherpeople. So I think that if you
have a set of a set of values,it's very easy to say yes or no
to something as a marketer, ifyou just put on the hat of the
user and say what I as the userlike to receive the thing that
I'm making right now? Yes, no.
If you say no, then you probablyshouldn't do the thing. Like
(23:36):
it's very, I think, in myopinion, very easy to be
ethical, as an individual, likeon your own. I think that it's
very hard often to sell that toyour executive leadership, or to
even sometimes even yourteammates, because they're going
to look at, well, if will thisget us a better outcome? If yes,
then we'll do it. However, Ipersonally think that that's
(23:56):
wrong, because that degradestrust with your user community,
it degrades trust with thefuture customer that you might
have. And I think that you know,bait and switch tactics or being
disingenuous about what yourproduct does, or what's in the
product today, it can really,really degrade trust for a
customer. So I think that beingreally hyper focused on
(24:19):
developing programs that arehighly performance based on what
the user actually wants, and youcan if you can prove that it's
what the user actually once andyou can prove that doing things
right is more effective thandoing things the easy way.
That's how I have always solddoing this to my leadership. So
and making good decisions andnot spamming people with email
(24:42):
and not putting a whole bunch ofstuff that's like weird or bad
into an ad word or the ad unitor like trying and actually
trying to be very authentic towhat what the product does, who
it's for, and and what the valueof it is. And like it's always
trust based relationship likeLike I was saying earlier with
the, the my considerations aboutthe future, we'll see more and
(25:04):
more brands leaning into being alifecycle or lifestyle brand.
You can't do that without deeptrust based relationships. And
if you break that trust, it'svery hard to get back. So that's
how I've always justified havinga or not being gross, don't not
not gross marketing, to myleadership,
age through trust is somethingthat is not given in, it's not
(25:28):
guaranteed in an onlineenvironment. Do you think we
took a wrong growth in digitalmarketing, about ethics, maybe
the last years,I think that there will always
be bad actors with anyinnovation, right? Like the the
level of specificity that youcan get with the data available
to us, as digital marketerstoday can be used for good. And
I think that a great example ofthat is Instagram, right?
(25:52):
Instagram has totally nailed,using your data to serve you ads
that are meaningful andinteresting to your life, like
the conversion rate on Instagramads is incredibly high, because
they don't show you garbage,they have a very clear set of
rules about how you can use thedata. And like they have a clear
terms of service. If you if youbreak the rules, then you get
the ban hammer really fast. AndI think that, you know if
(26:15):
without that kind of ethics atthe top like with with the
actual leadership of the companythat you're advertising on,
you'll have a problem. But Idon't think that necessarily we
took a wrong turn. As digitalmarketers, I think that there
are always bad actors and thebad actors have been given a
bigger platform. So I think thatit's even more important for
(26:35):
especially younger and careermarketers to stand up for what
is right and stand and rememberthat there are humans and people
with feelings and families onthe other end of the stuff that
we are we're showing them. Andand to always be very thoughtful
and intentional about if that ifif the message that we are
showing to the person in thatmoment of time is true. Is is
(26:57):
authentic, and is actually realfor them. But I don't
necessarily think that we as anindustry have taken a wrong
turn, I think data can beincredibly powerful and actually
create better experiences forpeople. And and like I would
much rather be, you know,targeted if I'm going to get
advertised to at least make itgood, right? So if and I think
(27:17):
that that's a great way to greatway to think about your own your
own programs, like if I'm goingto advertise to someone, it's my
responsibility to at least makeit good. So I think that using
the tools that we have to makethose experiences really
amazing, is a is a great way toleverage the innovations in the
space that we've had. And it'sup to us to you know, self
(27:40):
govern that behaviorand be emphatic. Perfect. Ah,
thank you for sharing yourthoughts on that. I really
appreciate it. So and thank youfor joining this episode and
sharing with the audience, yourexperience, the deeps
strategies. What I think is, forme, the most important you say
(28:06):
this lesson to learn step numberone, before anything before we
start using the art ofstorytelling, to understand the
audience the pain point beforedoing anything. And thank you
for this very valuablediscussion. So welcome. Thanks
for having me. Thank youeveryone, and we will talk again
(28:29):
in the next podcast. Excellent
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