The Truth[er] w Zach Kidder

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You make me an enemy so you can hate me.

(00:04):
Because once you start hating, you can't stop thinking.
Animal cognitive expert and science writer Justin Gregg wrote a book titled, If Nietzsche
Were a Narwhal.
In his book, Gregg argues that there's an evolutionary reason why human intelligence

(00:26):
isn't more prevalent in the animal kingdom.
Simply put, non-human animals don't need human intelligence to be successful, and their
success arrives without the added baggage of destroying themselves and the planet in
the process.
In a conversation with Adam Grant about his book, Gregg says that, we can rationalize

(00:50):
ourselves into why this is right and this is wrong, but when those things don't work,
we can rationalize and moralize ourselves into a position to justify things like genocide.
Most of the terrible genocides committed in our past are based on people who thought they
were morally correct or justified in doing what they were doing.

(01:14):
If you are very convinced that you are right and you don't allow your ability to change
your mind and to think differently about your moral reasoning, then you are probably on
a path to potential danger and destruction.
The problem with morality is that we don't allow things and evidence to change our own

(01:34):
ideas about our own beliefs.
It is very difficult to be moral without intelligence.
I would even argue that within the idea of intelligence, diversity of thought is an integral
part in being able to have an aerial view of morality.

(01:57):
Pastor Jeremy Wade Coleman put it this way, we as people are programmed to or addicted
to monolithic groupthink.
We don't want you to agree with just the main headlines, but also all the sub points.
And we have issues with anyone who doesn't buy into every single little thing.

(02:17):
It's dangerous because then there's no diversity of thought.
When there's no diversity of thought, there's really no challenge that happens.
No change.
Phil Tetlock said, we should treat our beliefs not as treasures to be guarded, but as hypotheses
to be tested.

(02:41):
When you put something out there that makes people uncomfortable, you are sure to get
harsh criticism back.
But American philosopher, Agnes Callard talks about the importance of seeing your shortcomings
through others.
She says, the test of anything, thoughts and ideas is to say them out loud to someone.

(03:02):
Our minds are both cognitive and emotional roller coasters.
It's really hard to actually question something.
You have this feeling that something is at stake, and whether or not you're going to
hold on to this particular view or claim is a function of how this conversation goes.
Rethinking means you're exposed to a new set of objections.

(03:26):
It doesn't mean you'll be able to answer them.
It's from a Platonic dialogue, the idea that another person is a kind of mirror from the
Alcibiades.
What Socrates says is that you look in the dark part of their eye, and it's like you
can see your own reflection and so another person serves as that.

(03:46):
They're showing you all your faults because you can't see your own faults.
When you see yourself reflected in another person, that's when you see your faults.
When you take a chance at being vulnerable, you run a risk, but sometimes that risk pays
off.
Some of you may know the joy of crossing paths with someone you really connect with, and

(04:11):
you each naturally bring out all the weirdness and quirkiness from one another.
A friendship blossoms, conversation flows naturally, and not even your closest other
people around you can hope to decipher the inside jokes that you share.
I found that with my friend, Zach Kidder.

(04:32):
This episode, we sat down in his garage over some home brewed beers and a cheese platter
that we found behind the Publix.
While we discuss our journey to seek what truth is in a world so fraught with misinformation
and about the importance of practicing good faith dialogue in a culture divided and ready

(04:52):
to demonize each other.
So welcome to Grubbing Grace.
I'm your host, Mark Flower.
Although I didn't know what to expect going into this conversation, I quickly realized
how important this conversation needed to happen and how relevant it is today.
This is one of my longer episodes, so I hope that you strap in until the end.

(05:16):
If not, I'll see you in the next one.
I did though have some technical difficulties as my microphone stopped recording after about
half way through, but luckily, Zach was also recording on his phone.
I truly hope you enjoy this zany and insightful conversation with Zach Kidder.

(05:59):
We've come to worship, we've come to worship, we've come to worship.
That's right!
Come on, sit down!
We're here to worship!
Welcome, everyone!
Say hi to...
Hey, say hi to your neighbor.
Say hi to the neighbor.
Hi!
No, no, give him a hug!
Give him the Ten Commandments!
Ten Commandments!

(06:20):
That's what I'm talking about!
We've come to...
Friendship circles!
We've come to...
Worship you!
We've come to...
Worship...
Today...
Worship you!
Worship you!
That's right.
Uh huh, uh huh.
Oh, I was picking up on yours, that's what it was.
Dogs of the New York Landscaper's Association of Ferguson Riders.

(06:42):
The rider strike will commence.
I don't even know, should I introduce this episode as my normal way of introducing things?
This is such a...
I don't know, are we on on or do you want to just kind of jump in at some point?
Non-traditional way of doing things.
I was gonna say, if you want to omit anything, I'm just kind of...

(07:03):
I'll go ahead and do it.
Maybe I'll include some of those in the conversation.
Yeah.
Maybe.
Alright, welcome to Grub and Grace!
I am here with my friend Zach Hitter.
By the way, I am Mark Flower.
I am here with Zach Hitter.
I've been looking forward to doing this.
The teleprompter isn't working.

(07:24):
Thanks, man.
I'm wearing Crocs right now.
They slip on my feet.
We're in my garage.
This is the first time I've ever had a podcast in my garage.
So to my listeners who might be thrown off from my traditional way of doing things, this
is my good friend from college.
Our conversations are a little non-traditional.

(07:44):
So we'll just kind of let it flow and if it's too weird for you, tune in to the next episode.
Perfectly fine.
No feelings hurt.
None.
No.
I hope I catch wind that you've skipped this episode.
I hope it's because of, well, you'll see.

(08:04):
Get it?
You can't see on a podcast.
You can't see in the wind.
You feel that breeze on your face.
So anyway, thanks for having me.
So I should give a little disclaimer.
I have no idea what we're going to be talking about today.
I've read on my notes that I'm so excited.
Hey, I am so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.
I'm so excited.

(08:25):
I'm so excited.
Hey, I am so excited.
Pull it together, Zach.
Yeah, I thank you for doing this, man.
This is awesome just to be able to come on this train of yours that has been coming,
going along for some time now as you started getting into the podcast world in the last
year or two and a whole three weeks longer than that and dog years.

(08:49):
This is an honor.
This is an honor.
And I'm, no, I really thank you so much.
And this even is just a chance to talk to you
and have like an informal slash formal opportunity.
But I got excited just the last few weeks.
I'm like, I was a lot brewing, not just beer,
but in my mind in terms of,
oh, it's also life, the church.

(09:11):
When you first introduced me to the idea
of what you were planning on doing about,
let's say beginning of 2023, you'd messaged me,
hey, I'm thinking about doing this.
And this is the idea of grub and grace
is what I'm toying around with.
And this is what I'm thinking about doing.
And I'm like, oh yeah.
Of course I'm like, you're like,
you have any ideas, suggestions?
Are you anything related to kind of pulling

(09:31):
with like the culinary and mixing that
with the experience that people have, right?
You know, like this vision.
And I'm like, how about the Nephilim?
You know, those guys ate.
You're like, yeah, Zach, we'll talk to you.
You can get your agent in touch with my agent.
We'll see what happens.
I mean, that's not what I'm planning on.
No, which is funny.

(09:52):
Cause like, yeah, you brought that up.
And I'll admit like, yeah, I was kind of like,
like, of course, yeah.
But since that first talks about doing it,
I have shifted my perspective as far as like
where I want to take this podcast.
And I think there is room for conversations like that too.
So all is welcome.

(10:13):
But I know we won't be talking about that today.
I know you have other ones.
We can jump on over there, talk like that.
If it comes up, cool.
Like more important.
It might surface.
And so just a little bit of,
I'll jump in about,
I'll kind of give you a little history,
kind of bring people up to speed on who I am
and what I'm all about.
So they don't think I'm just some weird guy
you found in the alleyway.

(10:33):
Behind Publix and the Ross,
you know, the Ross Clothing Store.
Hanging out by the Ross.
Just hanging out in the center, little circle clothes racks.
Oh, the sandwiches have arrived.
Alert, alert.
The sandwiches have arrived.
This is funny, we're actually breaking bread.
No way. You brought bakery.
Mark is a generous man.
You got some cheese. You brought, we got cheese.

(10:54):
Because I'm a Wisconsin guy at heart.
And you're a Minnesotan.
I'm a Minnesotan.
Did you ever sneak over across the border
into Wisconsin and grab someone's cheese
off their living room table?
I did, twice.
Writing that down.
There he goes, Zach's walking around.
He's getting the sandwiches.
We're gonna break the bread together.

(11:15):
We've got Publix breads.
Oh, it's all manis.
The only sauce happen they put in here.
Manis and bread.
Manis bread sandwiches.
Brought to you by Publix.
Sponsored by Publix.
Yeah, help yourself, Tom.
If you're feeling it.
I'm gonna break some bread right here.

(11:38):
Broken.
Cutting to 15 minutes later when Zach finally
regains composure at this brain.
I put together a slideshow.
And I actually put it together pretty much
the last couple nights.
You know, I'm like, oh, I gotta get this
bullet points in my head.
I wrote down, I did some talk to text.
And I was like, I'm gonna, all these ideas.
I'm like, well, I can't talk about all that stuff.

(11:58):
And obviously I've joked about the Nephilim.
Well, yeah, actually there's a little bit.
That's not the topic, obviously.
But I'm like, no.
I just kept feeling pulled into just telling a story.
So I put it a slideshow just to have some visual aids.
But there's also some sound bites that might show up
to really bring in the mood.
So, but yeah.

(12:19):
Please bring it all in.
But yeah, so the thing that I came up with,
I think I was sharing with you a couple weeks ago
was the search for the truth.
Truth.
Truth ER is getting complicated
with bracketed ER at the end.
That's kind of been my weird way of putting
this last 10, 12, 15 years of existence.

(12:42):
But so yeah, I was like, all right, you know what?
This is it.
If I were to sum up my story
and what's gone on in my life over these years
and how I've been redirected or put into this pattern
of this direction, I should say,
it's what's kept me afloat in an age of uncertainty,
relativity, propaganda, and gaslighting.

(13:03):
So there's a lot of stuff.
The best kind of lighting.
I love it, yeah.
You know, that's actually what all the power you see here
in this room is all powered.
We don't have, we're not on the grid.
It's all gaslighting.
We have some very negative toxic people out here
in the woods that are just exuding energies.
They just have microphones and they just.
Zach, you're.

(13:24):
Do it.
Your cheese doesn't taste good.
I didn't know that.
It's not true.
If only you could screw in a light bulb.
Exactly, we get like times 80.
There's 80 of those guys doing that.
And then imagine some of the Karens out there.
The Karens.

(13:45):
But yeah, and then that's my name.
I'm Zach Kidder.
That's a little book emoji.
But yeah, I'll just tell you a little bit about my story
and just kind of my upbringing.
So here's the fam jam.
Ah, the fam jam.
I was, we were raised in the church.
I'm the oldest of four siblings,
so I have three younger sisters.

(14:06):
I'm the oldest.
A lot of Barbies, a lot of playing around in the house,
chasing them.
Yeah, we were pretty much had a pretty normal,
I would say, childhood.
Went to church, did the whole church thing.
Sunday school.
At some point.
All right, are you ready to ask Jesus into your heart?
Let's go sit around the fire.
All right, this is the time.

(14:26):
Let's say the prayer.
Here you go.
And then end of this gesture here with a fist.
Yep.
And that was kind of it.
So just kind of normal, our friendship circle, our life.
That was our world.
That was that.
And so things started taking a little bit of a twist
and a turn when I was middle school age.
Well, I should say like age 10 through 14,
my mom got sick with cancer.

(14:47):
So we were dealing with that.
That came into our life and that was the,
I want to say just the new reality of like,
okay, not only, it was just, it was a lot.
So it was her getting treatments and all that stuff,
but she ended up passing away when I was 14,
end of my eighth grade year.
And that was pretty hard.
So that rocked my world.

(15:07):
And it brought into play just a lot of questions.
It's like, all right, well, first question being,
why did you take my mom?
And, you know, along that, you know, before that,
and even like definitely after that,
my dad and I just did not get along very well.
And there was that kind of antagonistic relationship
and just not a very good one.
And so my next question to God was,

(15:29):
why was I left with him?
So those were some big, big ticket questions right there.
And going into high school, cruising into the,
you know, that era time of life, you know, just,
you know, so many changes, so many things.
I'm like, okay, this is not easy.
So it was definitely a very tough time in my life.
So definitely a very, and my sisters too,

(15:51):
I mean, they all experienced it too.
And certainly my dad, I'm sure he experienced it too.
He's now a single parent, you know,
raising us and all that.
But yeah, I think the big thing for me, you know,
no, those questions were never answered.
There was never a, oh, there you go.
Thanks God.
I picture there's this Monty Python, the Holy Grail.
Did you ever see that growing up?

(16:11):
Whenever they portray God coming out of,
it's always coming out of the clouds
in like this cartoon version.
It was super cartoony.
Hi, what are you doing now?
They're like, it's just goofy.
Like, there was never, you know, I turn everything into it.
You know me, Mark, I'm a jokey guy.
It's made light of hard times.
You know, it's like,
there just has to be a breaking point.
You just go, what?

(16:32):
Like, this is absurd.
But yeah, life was definitely pretty hard,
especially, you know, growing up as a high school kid,
emotions are even stronger than they are.
Just learning about life
and then just not having that motherly presence.
I think that was pretty tough.
But yes, no questions were answered.
Those ones at least.
But even with all the adverse conditions
and just like the, I wanna say gaslighting,

(16:55):
just the bad relationship I have with my dad,
abusive and just that nature of things.
People came out of the woodwork.
All of a sudden there was like father figures
and people are like, hey, I'm gonna take you out to Clovers
for this or I'm gonna go, you know,
walk you through the Bible and disciple you for a year.
And yeah, sounds great.
And just people, friends, parents, friends, moms,
you know, becoming a mother to me and all that.
And like, my dad remarried, you know,

(17:17):
we had the story continues, you know,
and it didn't get any easier.
But yeah, that's basically kind of that chapter
and all that.
So a little bit about, I have this slideshow going right here.
And this was not, I did not create this.
This was a template.
And I was like really pissed off
because I couldn't get rid of that coffee cup right there.
And it's like a little graphic background

(17:39):
and there's this cheesy quotes.
So basically you could take this and write your own quotes.
But I decided to leave all the quotes in there.
Would you mind reading this one?
Friends big.
Friends bring happiness into your life.
Best friends bring coffee.
I met my wife, yeah, I went to college,

(17:59):
went to the University down in Springfield, Missouri,
went for film, because I wanted to study film.
And yeah, I eventually met my wife who were married today
and I met you as well.
So I just wanted to mention that.
Did I become your wife?
I wish.
I wish.
You were taken.
You never be time for me at the gate land.
What's that?

(18:20):
Those were the days though.
I like just the memories.
But hey, I've got a little thing here.
The dogs of New York half spoken.
Let's make sure the volume's up here.
So here's a little recap of me and Mark's friendship.
And I'm gonna go ahead and say that I'm a little bit
like a little bit like a little bit,
I'm a little bit like a little bit,

(18:41):
so here's a little recap of me and Mark's friendship
and almost marriage.
Selling.
Service.
And service.
And selling.
And selling.
And service.
And service.
And selling.
And service.
And service.

(19:02):
A smart wrist gala of the conformance
and the message of security.
And Selena to her business.
What does she have?
You have the rest of the business.
So for those who are just listening,
there are photos and videos of both Zach and I.
One of them is with me without a shirt on touching my nipples.
I don't remember it.

(19:23):
Was that, I think that was going to the beach maybe?
Table Rock Lake.
Maybe to the beach.
There was another clip of me with some stage makeup hair on my face.
Reading the, excuse me.
Reading Grimm's fairy tales on the city bus for Zach.
The city bus of Springfield, Missouri.

(19:44):
It was already a small town, but it had a bus.
I'd never been on the bus.
There's also images scattered in there of gentlemen broncos of,
I forget his character's name, but he's in the ear of the girl he's sitting next to
and going, while rubbing hand lotion on her hands.

(20:05):
Great movie.
Yes.
I think it was like their sequel film or whatever that came out.
Not sequel, but same guys that made that.
So that is a little recap of our relationship.
I have some other ones to add to that.
Yeah, obviously Adventures on the City Bus.
I was asking this girl to harvest fast and I said, Mark, you want to help me out?

(20:26):
Mark is the kind of guy, the kind of friend who doesn't matter what it is.
He'll just, it could be like, you want to go scrub poop out of the, I've never asked
him that, but.
I'd probably be like, of course I do, I'll be right there.
You probably would.
But it was like, do you mind, based on the question, do you mind me putting this stage
makeup on as beard and you come on the bus and act like you're blending in the society
and then you start reading a really old 1800s nursery.

(20:49):
And I really blended in with society.
You had a newspaper, a horrible like checkered suit on and like, yeah.
So that went very well.
The stage makeup wasn't even my hair color either.
It was like reddish.
You should change your logo and this microphone here with the bread.
You should have like your, that cartoon version of that guy with the horrible beard on.

(21:13):
Yeah, I was, I took a class for makeup.
Anyway, but that was not my favorite one.
My favorite one was not making eggnog that didn't turn out too well.
We tried that.
We still, we still drank it though or ate it.
Like hot cheese.
We did try it, yeah.
But no, it was, I was going to Paris for a school trip and the night before I invited

(21:36):
you over, I think you had already graduated, but so you came on over.
I was in the dorms and you're like, you're not leaving to go to Paris until you watch
Amelie.
Yeah.
So I had never seen it.
I heard, I had listened to the soundtrack because it's a really good soundtrack and
like, we're going to watch it.
And that's the title.
So you came over and watched it and then like, it was like two in the morning.
We ended up talking until like seven in the morning.

(21:57):
This is after the movie about just life and just getting real.
It wasn't just jokes.
It wasn't story, story after story, but it was like just a really great time.
I'll never forget it because it was very meaningful to me and I didn't get any sleep, which is
fine because I was getting on a plane so you could change your sleep cycle and you're like,
oh, you got to stay up all night, man.
We're going to watch Amelie.
You can pack your bags later.

(22:18):
And then we just started just talking and hanging out and it was like, ah, we're just
going to go back.
Which I'm so glad we did because we've been doing that ever since.
Our conversations, not just the goofy part, but our conversations have been just like,
you know, it's goofy.
But then we immediately go into the deep side too.
And then we go right back to goofy again.
I really appreciate it.

(22:39):
Yeah, that's, that means a lot to me.
Pivotal experiences.
Pivotal life experiences.
Ended up getting married to Jenna.
We had met like right after school, but in that same college atmosphere and all that.
And so we got married young.
I was like 12 years ago.
We've been married for a bit now.
And I think jumping right in there, we moved back to Sheboygan, Wisconsin.

(23:01):
We're married and some family things came up like the day before the wedding.
I love her family.
She's got a great, you know, her mother and father-in-law and like just family that they've
embraced me.
We've kind of, you know, I was like, I was excited about that.
Yay.
Graphing into this family.
And then she really liked my family.
But then some stuff happened to me the day before.
She's like, wait, you never told me about this.
I'm like, well, I mentioned things that's gotten patched up and all that.

(23:24):
So like there was definitely a lot of upheaval and that was pretty hard to bring in, especially
with that expectation of like, oh, wow, this family's going to take care of me and this
is great.
We're moving to your town, having the wedding and all that.
So it was just like, that kind of blew up in our faces and it made for a really tough
year getting started on top of that.
And I mean, I was in the church, you know, and still to that day, like my pastor came

(23:47):
up from Springfield, married us and like, but I think with everything happening and
just all that, like I was more in a place of like, yeah, I don't trust church.
I don't think any churches here are going to be the answer for what we're looking for.
And they're not really truly living out the call of.
So I had a lot of like just high standards, but then also like hurt combined with that.

(24:07):
So I'm like, so it's kind of stayed away kind of a couple of years went by.
We're like, eh, like I still believe in God.
I had tons of questions.
But anyway, yeah, we moved.
We ended up moving a couple of years later, moved for work.
I really wanted to get into film.
That's what we ended up doing.
I was blessed with a job pretty quickly into that search.
And we moved, moved away from the family stuff, kind of some things were patched up and not

(24:28):
really.
We're just learning, you know, learning like, man, there's a lot to learn.
And I feel you really get hit hard when you get married.
It's like, that's the real where the real rubber meets the road.
You know, there's so much to learn.
I'm sure you know.
Oh, yeah.
And so, yeah, we moved and like, but I really felt the yearning because I was like, and
I just give this another go.

(24:49):
Like, so I started looking for ministries and like really intentional ministries.
Things were like, you know, we were actually saying what we're doing, doing what we're
saying, you know, that kind of thing.
So I found this guy and it was just like by chance and he was like doing church planning
and he's like, yeah, yeah, come on over.
It was a very small kind of thing, very organic.
But we believe in this kind of different approach.

(25:10):
We're not trying to build this thing.
We're trying to start a group of people at meet in the living room.
And you know, if it goes from there, if it expands, it'll expand to other living rooms.
I was like, oh, I've been reading about this.
This is big to me.
A big influence at that time for me was pagan Christianity, which is a book by Frank Walla
and the Barna Research Group.
And they kind of looked into like, you know, what has the church been influenced by in

(25:33):
terms of how it's created this thing, you know, how we do how we do church.
Right.
So I was like, man, very compelling.
But I was really compelled by the authenticity because this guy is like church through the
ages.
Yeah.
It's like it's what's the evolution of church?
Yeah.
Which is a funny word for the church itself.

(25:54):
Yeah.
Right.
Absolutely.
Well, and that's man.
So like just the exemplification of like this guy, particularly this pastor, his name is
Reagan.
Hey, Reagan, if you're listening.
Hey, Zach.
I'm so glad that you put me in featured in this.
You didn't even change my name.
Actually he doesn't even sound like that.

(26:14):
It's like Alabama, but he doesn't sound like that.
But anyway, he was on his thing was discipleship.
I'm going to invite you to meet with me and we're going to do this thing called story
in story, like making a verb out of story.
And we're just going to go through the Bible in that kind of way.
And we'll just meet up once a week.

(26:34):
And so I was like, yeah, sounds great.
I can commit to that.
But yeah, like clockwork on Monday morning, like I'd get a text and be like, hey, Zach,
I'm going to free this week to meet up and we'd go get coffee or whatever, go to his
house.
And he would take like an hour and get this little booklet with Bible stories in it.
You know, like, and it was just like basically just the text of the Bible of that story.
You know, this verse through that verse, you know, be like anything like an excerpt from

(26:58):
Jonah or this or Jesus or whoever.
And you go, OK, I'm going to read it.
You'd read it.
And then you go, all right, I'm going to tell you the story from my memory of what I just
read.
Yeah.
And then it's like, all right, who are the main characters, this and that, who is what
was going on?
And we talk about it.
And he's like, all right, you tell me the story.
That was that was the heart.

(27:18):
I was it.
It was nothing.
No frills.
There was no like, let's go through this book.
It was just like basic.
Let's go back into that.
And so that was something for me.
And I say like in that time, I feel like I committed or I kind of felt like myself committing
back to the journey of like, OK, I can do this again.
We're going through a lot of family hurt, a lot of like facing a lot of stuff that was

(27:41):
coming up from like my own family, from the death, from the abuse, from this and that
and the other spiritual abuse, all sorts of stuff.
So see that.
Yeah, that jump started my faith.
And I think, yeah, I still had stuff that I wasn't really dealing with, you know, but
that was in the closet and a lot of stuff was changing for better.
And like my career was getting off to a good foot.
And so that's kind of kind of the story there.

(28:03):
Oh, here's another slide.
Passion is the bridge.
Would you like me to read it?
Passion is the bridge that takes you from pain to change.
Frida Kahlo.
Oh, be the church.

(28:24):
Yeah, it's awesome.
I need some more gentlemen, Broncos to show up.
Hopefully we need they will.
We need more gentlemen, Bronco clips.
I'll talk.
Hang on.
Some more of those.
I said now.
All right.
Yeah, we should be getting some.
We need some yeast clips.
Yeast lords.
Yeast lords.
Oh, yeah.

(28:45):
So anyway, I'll wrap it up.
My story and background didn't mean to go so long.
I apologize.
Go on.
Yeah.
Mini twists and turns like twists.
And we moved a lot, did a lot of stuff.
The job was good.
You know, just has been good.
It hasn't been good lately.
I'm a filmmaker.
I love what I do.
It's great, you know, getting into what I've been able to do and I love it.

(29:07):
It's been very slow lately.
So we're kind of rethinking things in terms of what comes next.
But well, slow is an understatement to the whole industry has been kind of shot.
Yeah, I'm sure you could probably go into that.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah, yeah.
It's from strikes to just work stoppage.
We're in Atlanta now.
And so this is kind of a film mecca outside of L.A. and New York.

(29:27):
And so there's like enough stages, more stages here than like New York has.
Because the taxes are low.
Yeah, exactly.
You know it.
Yeah.
So yeah, sadly, it's just been very slow and that's been that's affected us and all that.
But yeah, jumping up to speed.
So like we got married, obviously.
Here we are now.
I've got three girls.
There they are.
Lily, Margo and Charlotte.
Yeah, we're just, you know, doing that's our thing.

(29:48):
You know, we're we're.
Once you have kids, you know, it's like it married.
It's one thing having kids.
You're kind of just puts you into third, fourth, fifth year with life and just the need to
give to someone else, you know, get relent of some selfishness and some ways that are.
And so combining all that together.
Yeah, I just felt like this the theme, I think, in that sense, it was seeking out our place

(30:12):
in the body of Christ.
Like, what does that look like?
What does that mean?
You know, and like a lot of people go to church, a lot of people do this.
They don't really not really there.
And you just see them.
You know, there's not really that level.
Maybe it's a box they check.
Maybe maybe they're totally fulfilled.
I don't know.
I can't speak to other people.
It's like I was wanted something more.
And I learned that from that one experience of just getting discipled and seen like and

(30:35):
that all fizzled to we had left that town and like, you know, but like, yeah, this is
the temporal aspects of like, here we are now.
Who's around us and who can I hate the hate the phrase.
Look, we do life with you, but it's kind of, you know, for lack of better phrase, I'm going
to use it anyway.
That's basically it.
No, thanks.
Thanks for sharing so much about that.
I feel like there are aspects of what you said that I either forgot or you had not shared

(30:59):
with me prior.
So it's nice to be able to hear this from you and to feel like I understand you a little
bit more to even.
So I really do appreciate you.
You shared everything.
Yeah.
No, it's funny that you like you shared a little bit about your faith and kind of falling
out, but then finding someone that kind of brought you back in.

(31:20):
What I was going to talk about is PRRI, so it's an institute, it's they do a lot of research
and get a lot of statistics on kind of the beat of the nation.
Like specifically, not specifically, but they do have a large emphasis on religious statistics.
So like faith based, you know, religion, you know, how many people go to church, all that

(31:41):
kind of stuff.
Yeah.
PRRI Institute.
Not Perry.
Christina Perry.
They have a lot of research.
They came out with some research from 2023 to a decade from before.
So 2013, that whole decade span of time.
And they gathered statistics and research over that time to get a good decades worth

(32:03):
of time.
And they found that over that course of time, that church attendance has dropped, dropped
actually considerably.
This specifically is people that are have left the church and have decided that they
don't believe whether that their agnostics, their atheists, their, you know, whatever
the case may be, how they define it.
They just they don't go to church.

(32:24):
They don't they don't necessarily think of themselves as Bible believing Christians.
And that went down from 31% in 2013 to 24%.
That many people, a great exodus from the church.
And that's only people that that don't believe there are a great deal of people that actually
don't go to church that still believe they're Christians and still believe in the Bible

(32:46):
and God as a deity in the sky.
However they find that.
But that's even gone down.
There are I think the latest of this year, there were 41%.
They found that 41% of people in America believe that there is a God and believe in Christianity.
They claim as Christianity is their religion, their kind of go to religion.

(33:10):
There's a whole spectrum as far as what the beliefs are in that.
And that that's even declined as far as people in that actually attend a service, at least
one service a week.
So you got 41% claim that they're Christian.
But then what is the statistics for that?
I see one on there says don't like the look of the janitor.

(33:32):
I can relate to that.
They don't like the look of the church janitor.
They give them a bad look.
Janitor Jamestown would rather attend the Landers theater than see this janitor every
week.
So the numbers that I mentioned about the people leaving the church and not believing
are very similar to people that are still in the church and are still believing they

(33:54):
attend at least one service a week.
So what they found was in 2023, nearly one quarter of Americans, so 24% attend religious
services either virtually in person, at least once a week.
So 7% declined from 31% of people that did in 2013.
And that's pretty universal.
So I think even they break it down as far as Republican or Democrat.

(34:16):
Republican is actually right on point.
That's about 7% decline of people that from 2013 that attend at least one service a week
to just about now to 2023.
You said over that 10 year period.
Ten year period.
And you got that 7% decline of all Americans that have stopped going to church at least

(34:37):
one service a week.
So they might attend like a holiday service like a Christmas or Easter or something like
that.
But as far as regularly attending, they just don't do it.
So when you were bringing up that you kind of left, I feel like it kind of goes in line
with a lot of these kind of stats.
I mean, there's a lot of people that are being disillusioned with the church in many ways.

(34:58):
And they actually go into the statistics as far as what people said, like why they left
the church.
Politics is one of the things.
Your take on like LGBTQ people, for instance, has been a big reason for why people have
had an exodus out of church.
And it sounds like you, it's more just things just didn't work lining up.
Is that correct?

(35:18):
Exactly.
Was I seen authentic community?
That's a really big one for me.
And like, especially with the absence of authentic family and those relationships being not being
there.
I really took it hard and kind of had to do some backwards somersaults and to try to regain
composure and realize, I'm still loved.

(35:42):
There's still other ways that the sun shines through the clouds.
It doesn't have to be through the things that you expected it would always ultimately be.
And so, you know, I'm grateful to have those low points in life.
Sometimes they really do bring back some truth that how did I need to grow in this moment?
And so like, yeah, I value it.
I'm probably going through a low moment now and I'm sure I'm going to value it like six

(36:04):
months from now.
Be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
I'm refocused, you know, on something.
I was going to tell you why I chose this title.
Yeah, please, please do.
I know we got a little sidetracked.
No, no, it's okay.
Please.
Yeah.
And forgive me because I went really long in my like bio, but I just kind of wanted
to say who I am, why I'm what brought me to this question.

(36:30):
But yeah, the search for the truth, especially around that time, I was really grappling.
I wrote, you know, my looking for reasons to understand what's going on here.
So yeah, I guess that's actually my quote.
I said that.
What if that was actually there before you?
Am I a float?

(36:52):
Jonathan, we don't know who that is.
He did not say that.
So don't plagiarizing.
In inspirational quote, am I a float?
This is it.
You know, like it really.
And I think you probably can track with this one is like everyone's asking, you know, all
these questions or, you know, wanting the right answers and the big ones, you know,
why why does God cause bad things to happen to good people?

(37:15):
You know, I think of my mom, who, by the way, was a tremendous, amazing person.
And I think I didn't even talk about that.
I didn't go into that.
But really, I owe a lot to why I believe what I do from her example and not from other people
who didn't provide that example, but from her specifically in the servant, like, you
know, going through, you know, just like excruciating pain and, you know, cancer treatments into

(37:40):
the last days of her life, her reaching out to arms as she asked.
She's in this bedroom, offered in a room dying in the hospital bed that we had for hospice.
And she goes, take that one picture down off while my sisters had scribbled, you know,
made all these like colored pictures and paint with tape them with tape on the wall.
Hold just that one off.
I want to see Jesus.

(38:00):
OK, so we pulled my dad, I think, pulled it off and just like and it was just like, you
can't make this stuff up.
Like it was the most insane moment I've ever seen.
End of life experience.
Oh, you know, just like that is kind of been something that's propelled me.
And so the reason I say that is like we I guess like we struggle with the age old question.

(38:20):
What is truth?
What?
Well, you know what?
And that becomes an interesting thing, especially in this time and age, you know, with just
like I think a predominant philosophy now is that of relativity, your truth, my truth
and really kind of it's we're in a different area.
We're in a postmodern age.
We've always been because we were born into right.
We didn't choose the era we were born.

(38:41):
Middle ages might have been a little different.
So, yeah, I feel like I've seen every like I'm not I'm no one that's smart.
I'm not trying to come here like, oh, yeah, but like I've heard every argument ploy.
I've seen every type.
I feel like I've seen every type of caricature of person in terms of like the religious world
and everywhere else.

(39:02):
But so I guess what I'm trying to say is it's really equipped to me to ask really better
questions, not assume that I know where I'm at or where I'm doing.
I'm trying to find the answer.
So like I guess that's my whole point.
So I don't like I said, I don't claim to know what I'm about to bring up in terms of my
journey and where it's brought me.

(39:24):
I don't you know, I'm not the arbiter of truth here and I'm not someone who's written about
this.
I'm just trying to learn.
I want to know the truth.
And like it's just brought me it was funny because it just the pieces fall where they
may write.
OK.
Oh, what about this?
You turn over a rock and like that's not where it belongs.

(39:46):
So that's kind of where I, you know, just to preface that.
Oh, you want to read this one?
In a gentle way, you can shake the world.
Yes, right.
Hot, my Gandhi.
Thank you so much, Gandhi.
That's actually my voice.

(40:12):
I didn't find this.
And I just added the audio to it.
I spent a lot of time till last night on these really important matters.
So my truth journey started when I was 9 11.
Of all the very lighthearted topic later.
Yeah.
Let's talk about death and mayhem here for a second.

(40:33):
My father in law.
So I was dating his daughter and I hadn't met him yet.
So they came down to where we were living in Springfield, Missouri.
I'm still finishing up school and they stayed at the Drew Rian and sweets.
Anyway, so I was going up to going up.
It's like, yeah, we're going to go get dinner.
Let's go up and meet them there in the rim.

(40:53):
So we went up to the rim.
Oh, hey, nice to meet you.
And literally there wasn't much.
He's very serious guy.
And he goes on.
He's sitting down, putting his tennis shoes on in the chair.
I think my mother in law now was brushing her hair, getting ready.
Oh yeah, we're almost ready.
Oh, nice to meet you guys.
And he goes to me, he goes, they lied to us about 9 11.

(41:14):
He's sitting looking with his eyes.
He's like six feet three.
Super, super just very serious.
He always looks angry, but he's actually not angry all the time.
He just has an angry look.
And so I said, and I'm the kind of guy, I'm the kind of guy that's like, if you have
an interesting tale or something that's like out of the norm, I want to hear about it.
I want to hear about all the oddities.
I love the Ripley's Believe It or Not museum.

(41:35):
I love all that stuff.
You know, like it's just so funny.
The folklore, I love it all.
So any of course I'm going to be like, do you tell me more?
I'm dating your daughter.
So I learned this later on their family, their immediate family, like her and her two older

(41:55):
brothers and they had gone down on nine a week before 9 11 happened.
This would have been like Labor Day, September.
They lived in upstate New York.
They went down there to go as a tourist, go to New York, Manhattan, and they went to the
top of the Trade Center.
And so they got in the elevator, went to the top, but to get to the elevator, you have
to pay like $10 or whatever.
And there's a line out the door and they're like, well, this is unusual.

(42:18):
A lot of people want to go to the top.
Well, there's 12 elevators.
There's only one working.
The other 11 were all flagged off under construction.
There's a massive drilling, all this stuff going on according to them, according to what
they experienced.
And they said, that's kind of weird.
Well, whatever then a week later, they demolished the dust and they were a week before that

(42:41):
in there anyway.
So it was just kind of like, whoa.
So that really opened up my father in law's eyes.
He looked at that and he's like, and I think start things start clicking.
He's a very intelligent man.
But anyway, so he's telling me all that.
And I'm again, I'm a curious mind.
I want to know why and what I ask inconvenient things at inconvenient moments.
But so I was like, I started looking into it after he told me that we got eventually

(43:03):
got married.
But like that whole year, I was going down the rabbit hole, man, looking at once you
look up one thing, it opens the door to the next.
And you're like, okay, well, that's interesting.
Well, they lied to us about that.
What about this?
And you know, just this, that and the other.
And you're like, oh my gosh.
And so then I became like an encyclopedia, like just devouring microphones, like, you

(43:27):
know, just like, okay.
And my wife's like, yeah, you got enough information there?
Like, let me tell you, push this button.
I have all these little buttons.
This button and I'll tell you a 9-11 fact.
1300 actually.
Wait, what?
But yeah, so well, I found out really quickly with all my excitement, it was like evangelism,

(43:51):
right?
You like learn something and get really excited about it, passionate and you want to change
the world.
But is everyone on board with that?
So like, you know, social media, it's this is 2012, by the way, I remember like posting
and doing all this, you know, engagements.
And people, I guess my ideas weren't really that welcome.
You know, there wasn't a lot of people that were like, it was mostly and I got most of

(44:13):
the, you know, I'm doing the downward thumb symbol from like mainly my Christian friends,
a lot of people in the church that were just did not feel comfortable with me questioning
these things.
It rubbed people the wrong way.
And it could have been my youthful ignorance and a lot of ways that I was at that time.
But like, either way, I mean, it was like, I just come like, where are all these open

(44:34):
where are the open minded people?
Why can't I talk about this stuff?
What?
But I was just like really puzzled and I'm like, this world, whatever I opened up, whatever
thing I opened up to find this information.
Thank you, Father-in-law.
I'm like, this sucks.
Now I know something or I think I know something and it's just like bothering me.
I want to know mainly where's the justice?

(44:54):
Like why are bad things happening like this to this level and why are there so many people
that should be good and should know about this?
And that really made me mad mainly at the church a little bit too, because I'm like,
well, of all the people that should be like willing to like remedy this, you would think
it would come from that side of things over anyone.
But yes, I was anyway, all that to say I was going to all these things.

(45:16):
I went to Richard Gage's documentary premiere of he's the founder of Architects and Engineers
for 9-11 Truth.
It's an activist group.
They had a petition, I think at one point, and this is like 10 years ago.
It's probably more now, but like they had like 2000 architects, engineers, metallurgists,
physicists that signed on saying, yes, we want a new investigation into those attacks
because a third building came down.
It was like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,

(45:41):
oh, Jeff.
Only 14 frames.
Anyway, just stuff like that.
We're like a third tower fell down, building seven.
Okay.
Anyway, all that to say, I'm not going to go through the whole encyclopedia, but I guess
the big thing is why this injustice?
Like why is this happening and why is it just crickets out there?
Yeah.
No one seems to pay any mind.

(46:02):
It really opened up my mind.
And I'm like, yeah, someone at that time who was wrestling with faith.
Oh, sorry.
If it's the, oh, you go ahead.
If it's the right chair, it doesn't take too long to get comfortable in it.
Lordship.
I think that was the actual quote too.

(46:24):
Oh, it changed it.
Yeah.
Like, yeah.
So I guess I think what's wrestling to is like people are like, why are you putting
so much stock into this?
You know, like you should be really concerned about other things and don't worry about that.
Worry about your family.
And I was like, no, no.
But like, I was like, well, this is truth, right?
Or I'm looking into the truth and I thought it was my burden to do that.
And it came to the point, it's like, I don't care.

(46:44):
Prove me wrong.
I don't care about being right.
Like, just show me that this is all wrong then.
If this is, you know, but no one came out of the woodwork really.
People would throw their little jabs.
You know, I'm sure you've seen this too in your own world where it's like you put some
stuff out there that's jarring to people and they just don't like it.
Makes them uncomfortable.
And that's cognitive dissonance.
It's like, you know, it's that idea of like, I was told something and it was reinforced

(47:08):
over the years.
This is how this thing is, whatever that thing is.
Now you're bringing me new information that contradicts that.
And you expect me to be warm and welcoming to that.
Well, it goes against my psychological, you know, it's just kind of a psychological thing.
I get it.
So you jump through hoops to explain it away.
Yeah.
For the defense.
The cognitive dissonance.
Yeah.
Yeah, there you go.

(47:28):
Exactly.
So I saw a lot of that and I'm like, I don't know.
I guess I'm militant about it.
Anyway, but yeah, again, we're taught Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.
And so that would be like, in my opinion, the big T truth, you know, there's a little
T truth.
Yeah, obviously figuring out what happened in 9-11.
That's important, right?
What happened over here?
What happened over there?

(47:49):
This war, that war.
All important.
We need to have justice.
But like, so there's that truth and he is the way he is literally the noun, the way
the truth and life.
Okay.
But yeah, I was just confused with people saying that were the most asleep on these
other issues.
So it, it, it seemed counterintuitive to me.
I'm like, hmm.
So that got me into a real little thorn in my side there.
Like, okay.

(48:10):
And it's always been there.
That little thorn, I tried to pull it out, but it's still there.
Little slivers.
Anyway, better.
This makes no sense to me at all.
I guess it's Shakespeare.
Better three hours too soon than a minute too late.
The hand massage was in there.

(48:36):
It's like a pound of lotion.
Progress lies not in enhancing what is, but in advancing towards what will be.
Fouchy.
Anyway, so kind of just going, and I hope I didn't spend too much time on that.

(48:58):
I just want to keep breeze through as much.
Forgive me.
Extrapolating like forever here.
But anyway, so stuff is to say like, you know, person that questions things like that is
a conspiracy theorist.
You know, that's a conspiracy.
You're lucky to talk about conspiracies, which are talking about other, you know, and so
you're in this camp, you're doing that.
You're a conspiracy theorist.

(49:19):
And that was interesting because you can even go down that rabbit hole.
I call it Christian truth there.
I'm a truth there because it was like a euphemism for, but basically like even looking into
like declassified CIA documents that are out there in the public now that it go, oh yeah,
I guess like in the sixties or whatever the Warren Commission was out, the CIA put stories

(49:39):
into the press where they're hit pieces.
They're fake pieces that said, you know, basically the purpose was to use the term conspiracy
theory theorist and dog them a little bit and be like, you are deranged that connotates
stupidity.
You're an idiot and all that.
So again, gas, gaslighting and people that want to know what happened are typically scapegoated

(50:01):
into that kind of thing.
Many times, you know, in our world and based on who's in control, who's really in power.
And so again, that's a whole nother echelon of things.
But like, yes, I was kind of just realizing that and it was definitely, it was been something
the backburner of my life that kind of spurred me on.
I definitely wound down.
I wasn't doing the Facebook posts and all that stuff.
That was kind of the election year.
Ron Paul for president, you know, like to what end, right?

(50:25):
And I'm still like, I live and breathe politics to this day as do you and other people.
And so we're all in that world, but we just don't really have a place to talk about that.
That's proper, right?
It's like you can, but you can't.
It's tough to find good, good faith dialogues with people.
I think I sent you a podcast recently where there actually was good faith dialogue.
I think in the second half of the episode where they were actually giving, you know,

(50:47):
there was a liberal point of view and then their conservative point of view, but they
were talking in friendly terms and they weren't like, you know, badgering each other.
They weren't dehumanizing or demonizing each other for each other's beliefs or points of
view.
But it was just, you know, they were giving their points of view and then, you know, the
other person would give their point of view and they were sharing your like, you know,
they love each other and they're, you know, it was just, it was this good conversation.

(51:08):
It's amazing.
Really refreshing to hear it.
Yeah.
You don't almost don't hear that anymore.
It's a rare thing.
And like, it's a joy to experience that.
Like I would, man, I would do anything for that.
In fact, we could accomplish that now in a sense, because I know, and it's not like we're
trying to compete for what we, where we're at and where we're not at, but it's just like,
we're obviously going to have differences, you know, and like even as friends, as buddies

(51:30):
and like, but, and that's what's so inspirational to me is that we're able to sit here and very,
very likely disagree on a lot of things, but we already have, even with our conversations,
like you brought up stuff and I'm like, I'm like, I don't necessarily believe that, but
I'm not going to like, you know, talk down to you because of that.
Thank you.
No, no.
And I'm pretty, so, so loving man.
And like this, uh, yeah, exactly.

(51:53):
Um, it's refreshing.
Yeah.
It's like, it's good to have people in your, in your life that you, you feel comfortable
you can actually do that with and not everybody has that.
I feel like it's actually very rare for people to have somebody in their life that they can
genuinely feel comfortable to bring up anything in their life.
Um, and I feel like you're one of those friends that can actually do that.

(52:13):
Thanks.
Yeah.
Thank you.
It comes from being in the opposite environment of like being shamed or you have an opinion
shame.
And that was kind of my upbringing, I had to shed that skin and learn how harmful that
really was.
And like that was kind of a, you know, going back to like, to some family origins, like
what were you, where were you from?

(52:33):
Like what, what level of, you know, how did you get your information?
And so like, how, how was, were you welcomed with an idea and like, were you allowed to
think things?
And so for me, it was really now very rigid.
And so it caused me to want to rebel.
You know, when I like just push through that barrier, I, I've gone through my like very
liberal phase and I've come out and then I kept some of those liberal things and this

(52:55):
and that's like political.
I don't know what kind of animal albatross unicorn I am, but I guess I'm kind of libertarian
and it doesn't matter, but like it's, it's not like something where you can't.
And that's the thing, like if you can't discuss ideas for humans and like, and again, come
to the arrival that you're, if I truly believe this, that you were created by God and like

(53:18):
you were, uh, that you're loved and that I'm told to love you and that you're made in love.
Then I think those things stand true that we should be able to talk about anything.
That's been, and it's not meaning that it's easy because there's just so much bear, so
many barriers, so many things.
I guess that's just the price you pay to get to, again, get to the truth, get to the fact
of the matter or whatever it is you're trying to get to.

(53:39):
But yeah, anyway, so go, we can say COVID and I'm not going to get into COVID, but like
in terms of that time period.
So like the themes that go along for me in my experience, in my mind were like, okay,
this is a very isolating time.
You know, there's, there's misleading guidance concerning health, concerning what we're to
believe on all sides.

(53:59):
And even to this day, I think there's still confusion.
Like what, what, what happened?
There's a normalcy bias now where it's like, I don't know.
I had a strong feeling about that, but now I don't know.
Like there's like, what?
Like a little, I don't even want to say the word, but it's that, you know, it's like mind
... I'm trying to subject myself there.

(54:21):
But yeah, we were told, yeah, just stuff like that.
So like that really, that was a hard time for me personally, because I was like, all
right, am I lukewarm?
Where am I at?
My face.
So I guess the question is this, was the church fractured before such things as like COVID
or any of this time?
And is, you know, what happened during COVID?

(54:42):
Cause I don't want to ignore it.
I have a lot of people ignoring it.
Oh, I don't want to bring up some bad stuff here.
We don't want to get into it.
I don't, I honestly don't.
I don't want to talk about any of the things, you know, but like what, so I kind of think
it was a blessing because if you were, and I don't, I'll speak for myself.
I was not really living for the Lord around then that time.

(55:04):
I kind of was, but I was more like in my little thing, doing my thing for me.
And I was going through my own issues and not really dealing with them.
And so while also claiming to be in the church and all this stuff.
But anyway, I think this was an opportunity for the true followers of Christ to be awakened
if you really were in on this or, you know, and that would be the need, the need being

(55:29):
we need healing, we need unity.
We're not happening on a global scale.
No, by all people, like a lot of people.
I don't know who was winning, who was losing there, but like I didn't see it much happening
in the church.
In fact, they kind of shuttered their doors physically for reasons, good reasons, I'm
sure anyway, but yeah, like why are we here?

(55:50):
You know, a lot of the stuff is coming out, boiling to it for me is like, what, what is
this?
I realize that like politics and all this stuff, you know, I get really involved in
that and like all the conspiracy and all this is like, I get really heated up by that.
But I'm like, our home, if I truly believe what this is saying, that that being the truth
of the word, then the kingdom is not here.

(56:13):
We're just brought here.
We're here to do the things we're really supposed to be doing.
What are those things?
So like, I had a mentor that pulled me aside like a month into the pandemic and he was
like a really smart guy.
Dennis Whaley, I'm referencing a guy from our old school.
It was a really nice guy that really helped a lot of students.
His name was Dennis Whaley.
I'd say we're the most inspirational people in our, in most of our lives.
You and me both got to glean and be affected by him.

(56:35):
And sadly he passed right in the, when we were still in his midst.
So it was really hard for me and you as well.
It's like, oh, the weight.
So it's one of those people that we just keep remembering.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
It just kind of comes up in the thought all the time.
Man, I wish I had a picture I could bring up right now.
I should have, I should have had something, but yeah, it is a guy that's kind of like
a mentor to me.
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm

(56:56):
like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
I'm like, I'm like, I'm like.
And that's retarded but «man» he, the flies that move his fingers and he goes,
»is this the fan wrecker you've heard before that boothzt KazIM is equivalent only to

(57:16):
But and it really what he's saying is like,
anytime would be a good time.
But like, especially now.
And I was like, and so I took that to heart.
I was going to use the quote, COVID may have sack tapped
the church.
You can cut that out if you want.
I don't know why that was relevant.
It was in my notes.
I don't remember where I was going.

(57:39):
For those who are interested in what sack tap means.
WWW is that.
No, no.
I'm sorry.
Anyway, what defines those tales in comparison
to what you're nicer?
This actually wasn't actually quoted in this template,
but I actually ended up using it to bridge my next thoughts.
It kind of works with your talk.

(58:00):
You know, un-unified.
Yeah.
Yeah, so anyway, it was a wake up call.
COVID was a wake up call.
Not to be right.
Not to be this purveyor of the truth of the information.
But mainly the truth of who I am spiritually,
who I was made in the image of, and what my purpose is here.

(58:23):
And so I'm still learning what that is now.
Yeah, so I realized one thing.
All this stuff to say, all this stuff
is like, I hate injustice.
I hate it.
That's what's feeling this desire to want to know why
it's happening.
And there's definitely a juxtaposition in the church
with those who have been taken in to the political idolatry

(58:47):
that human government will save us through that thing.
That's the belief.
It's never come true yet, I don't think, in human history.
Has it actually happened?
There might be elements of like, you know,
government's great for certain things.
But I'm not against government.
I'm not an anarchist.
But anyway, but then the juxtaposition being
they believe that, but they also believe, and Jesus will too.

(59:09):
And I think, and Marmalade Henry said that.
So yeah, so I guess it kind of validated for me.
It's like, OK, all this to say, and just during this time,
it's like, well, the little key truths,
the little like, I want to know the truth about this,
those are validated.
Because I think like, you know, there's a purpose for them.

(59:31):
Like, I think there's a trend in wanting to be good,
wanting good for all, wanting what the Lord wills.
And I think that's ultimately good,
even though there's not a lot of evidence of bad.
But like, with that said, so yeah,
like that kind of brings me to the main thought.
I hope my intro, I only want to call this an intro.
I feel like I've talked forever.

(59:51):
So I apologize.
This is a lot of stuff.
But I'm going to apologize.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I really, how do I say that?
Resend that apology.
Resend?
Resend.
We just thumbed up each other.
Yeah, so anyway, back to the biggest,
this is the big question that I wanted to kind of really

(01:00:14):
hound on.
That question, like, why are so many people
leading the church, kind of like what you were addressing
earlier, in that little stat and stuff,
like, whoa, looking at this 10-year time.
Yeah, so I have a theory and something
that I've been boiling in me for the last five years about this.
And so that's kind of what I wanted to mainly talk about.
Yes, trigger warning?
I don't know if it's trigger warning.

(01:00:35):
It might involve some nephilim.
They might come out of the woodwork at some point
and do some weird noises that I don't know are accurate.
Historically, they do ooh or not, but that might come up.
But the ones that bring the cheese and crackers.
That's correct.
A massive platter is like 90 long.
Anyway, so the biggest conspiracy,

(01:00:56):
let me just write it this way, of all time,
that I believe to be the biggest,
I don't know another word for it, conspiracy,
to deceive Adam and Eve that they could be like God
and that they could be apart from him
and be completely at that level and whatever that entails.

(01:01:16):
And basically, all the knowledge, all the good,
all the things under their shoulders.
They can, yeah, that's what you desire and you deserve it.
And so they believed it.
And so that's how that tale goes.
So yeah, that's kind of the biggest question.
Why aren't some people believing?
And so I've kind of been doing a lot of deep dives
into a lot of people that have talked about this stuff

(01:01:37):
and come away with some, I think, compelling evidence,
or maybe even just some understandings of why people
have left.
And so like I said, I honestly believe,
where do I go here?
Oh, here we go.
Like we're told, nothing can separate us

(01:01:58):
from the love of God.
There's that whole idea that once you're in here,
you're good.
You're in.
And I think that's how so many people operate,
is that they're just kind of told this information.
I was told, I prayed the prayer.
Do these things.
Check out.
But the more I've stepped to whatever you're being told,
the more I've come about this journey,

(01:02:19):
I can't check out anymore.
I feel like there's a kind of an indebtedness
to this information.
But if this is really true, whatever this is,
that we've kind of ignored, and I
feel like a lot of churches ignored a lot of people.
You don't hear messages preached on this at all.
Even seminaries, they're kind of like,
we don't touch that.
We kind of assume, or we just don't really touch it.
Or it's too taboo or risky.

(01:02:41):
That's exactly it.
Yeah.
Yeah, it rubs people the wrong way, I think.
This is all about getting people in the pews.
They want to touch the topics, or make
you feel good to be able to have people come in,
and then retain those people.
We got this.
Right.
I think that's exactly it.
The lowest common, it's like Ochem's razor.
Have you ever heard of that reasoning?

(01:03:02):
Ockham's razor.
Ockham's razor.
Thank you.
Ockham's razor is like the easiest explanation
is the correct explanation.
So if that seems to be the case, it's like, well, yeah, money.
We need to fund basically this ministry.
And the best way to go about that
is to really just kind of stick to these safe areas.
We'll talk about the gospel, talk about this, and sin,

(01:03:23):
and all that.
But we're not going to go into the whys.
I think people like myself included, and a lot of people.
People get dogged all the time.
Oh, they fell away.
They don't go, and they're not part of this.
And there's just this idea.
I've heard it from the other side, where it's like, oh, yeah,
they fell away.
They're no longer following the Lord anymore.
And this is that.
And I'm just like, what?

(01:03:44):
I want to hear the other side of the story.
I'm going to kind of go from a legal standpoint.
You always get the two sides of each story to get a case.
Let's hear both sides.
Of course, they're not always at the table, right?
And so you just assume that's what we're left with.
And I think that's dangerous.
But why is it dangerous?
Because there's a reason.
And I think truth is important.
And without it, I think that's what gets us into this mess.

(01:04:06):
And we're not going to address it and talk about it.
But anyway, so I know I'm spinning around here.
I'll just jump right in.
This is what kind of got me going.
It's going into Genesis.
And I'd heard a teacher, his name was Rob Steba.
He kind of brought me into this.
I was listening to him.
And so I'm just going to read right from Genesis.
Genesis 3.14.

(01:04:27):
I don't remember what version.
I think there's some key pages in this.
I'm like, King James said, I apologize.
But it says, 3.14, then the Lord,
this is right after the Adam and Eve thing,
the greatest conspiracy of all time,
or the first conspiracy of all time,
and how you look at it.
He said to the woman, the Lord God said to the woman,
what is that that you have done?
And the woman said, the serpent deceived me, and I ate.

(01:04:50):
And the Lord God said to the serpent,
well, because you've done this, first
then are you above all livestock and above all
beasts of the field.
And on your belly you should go, and the dust
you shall eat, and all the disney life.
He said, I will put enmity between you and the woman
and between your offspring and her offspring.
And he shall bruise your head, and he shall bruise his heel.

(01:05:12):
I'm jumping ahead.
I'm going through chapters forward in Genesis.
So it's given four and five, and going to where things are at
now.
And this is Genesis 6, verse one.
It says, and it came to pass when
men began to multiply on the face of the earth,
past Adam and Eve and all that, and maybe a few generations
down past Enoch and all these other big old patriarch

(01:05:36):
donkey dunks.
Donkey dunks?
And so anyway, daughters were born unto them.
But the sons of God saw the daughters of men
that they were fair, and they took them
as wives of all which they chose.
And the Lord said, my spirit shall not always
strive with man, for that he is also flesh,

(01:05:58):
and his days shall be 120 years.
There were giants in the land in those days.
And also after that, when the sons of God
came in unto the daughters of men,
and they did bear children to them,
the same became mighty men, which
were of old men of renown.

(01:06:19):
In verse 5, let me jump to that.
And God saw that witness of man was great in the earth,
and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart
was only evil continually.
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth,
and it grieved him in his heart.
And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created
from the face of the earth, both man and beast,

(01:06:40):
and the creeping thing and the fowls of the air.
So this is whole creation.
For it repented me that I have made them,
but Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
I have a lot, I'm sorry, I have a lot to just throw at you,
like that.
And it's a lot of like, here's a little paragraph here.

(01:07:00):
I just want to extrapolate a few things and move on,
or hopefully just stick to that, and that being Genesis 3.
So it's like something has happened.
There was an event.
There was a deception.
There was a serpent.
There was this.
There was these characters, right?
Adam and Eve and the serpent.
And now God responds.
And his holiness, he comes in.
Normally, he would walk the garden.

(01:07:20):
There was like this relationship.
But something transpired, as we all know.
There was the shame, and there was the clothing,
and all this stuff.
The nakedness was hidden.
Now we're understanding that the idea of shame
being brought in, the wording.
Going back to Genesis 3 is like crazy to me.
There will be enmity between the serpent and the woman,

(01:07:42):
the offspring, the seed.
And I was certainly extrapolating that,
looking at other people, and just
feel like the weeds here a little bit.
The seed.
So looking at that word in Hebrew, in the dictionary,
the Strong's H2 concordance 2233, which is Zerah in Hebrew.
This means the seed.
What is the makeup of the seed?

(01:08:02):
And I looked at the synonyms, the other words that
go along with that.
And one of them is semen, meaning like a man's semen.
The genetic makeup, the building block
of a human, like this idea of what
the origin, base level of a person.
That was what seems to be a stake.
Now, before everyone's like, oh my god, dude,

(01:08:23):
you haven't even read all this stuff.
There's a lot of, most, I should say, probably,
I don't know if it's most, but seems
to be a majority of scholars, people, pastors, seminaries
teach the son of Seth's theory, which is basically
that Seth, the son of Adam and Eve, populated and used
the big old grandpa of nations.
He's brought in all these people.

(01:08:44):
And then when Genesis 6 mentions that all of a sudden they
grew big and started doing these things
and yearning after the women and all this stuff,
well, that was just pushing cousins.
It gets a little bit explained away
in that kind of sense, where it's just like,
well, it's so natural, or anything, that the giants,
it's like we have giants today, right?
But anyway, so there's that.
That's kind of the, I guess, that reaction to that.

(01:09:07):
People won't go there.
We don't really talk about this.
I've never once in my life, I've been a Christian all my life,
ever heard a sermon on this.
It's the weird YouTube guy.
Anyway, so it goes on and on and on.
I'm not going to go into all these things.
It could take days.
But there's a lot of stuff in the Old Testament
where it's just like, I've always wondered why this was.

(01:09:27):
And we always question, I think the biggest thing,
why are people so angry, myself included,
I've been angry about this.
Why is God genocidal?
Why is he trying to wipe out women and children and all,
and their dogs, and their dog, Inky, and their lizards,
and their creeping things in the air,
or the creeping things in the ground,
and the flying things in the air?
Why?

(01:09:48):
What is this corruption?
And you look into the cleanest day,
it was never about the simple sin,
disobedience, that behavior modification, ideation of like,
oh, you know, very cynical.
Do the right things because the right button's here.
It was never about just that.

(01:10:10):
I mean, that's part of it, the heart.
It was everything.
Because God wants everything.
When he designed us to relate to him and commune,
and imagine having a meal with God, sitting there in the garden.
Like, what would that be to look like?
I can't even, like, I'm just going into fantasy mode here.
Damn it, going to David and Goliath,

(01:10:30):
going to the Israelites waiting for years.
And all of a sudden, OK, now go take Jericho, and they're,
oh, by the way, you're like grasshoppers to them.
Or biblical literalism, you can't say that.
That's just a metaphor.
Maybe, maybe not.
I don't know.
I wasn't there.
I'm not going to sit here and say, I know everything.
Because I don't.
I'm willing to be wrong.

(01:10:51):
But this narrative really intrigues me,
because there's a big question here,
and going back to the main question,
getting out of the weeds here, that lie here
of different levels, almost like an evolutionary type thing,
like the month we come to humans.
But it's actually like a man, six foot,
36 foot tall, Nephilim giant that looks dumber than rocks.

(01:11:15):
Anyway, going through a lot of stuff,
and I don't mean to go into a lot of stuff.
I don't want to just tank the whole thing into this whatever
you want to call it, this thing.
But this is what gets me.
It's like, Jesus comes back to redeem all.
He comes at a certain time, and there's probably
like a level of peace, and there's
like hundreds of years of just Nephilim,
a prophetic activity, apparently,

(01:11:36):
if you look into Old Testament history.
I don't even know that.
Well, I'm always rereading, maybe like relearning stuff.
It's actually very vast.
But the overall theme is, yes, there is genocide.
There is this.
There is these killings.
There's slayings.
There's blood.
But why?
And I guess here's my question.
Where are some of these things?

(01:11:56):
Let's talk about Jericho.
Were they human?
Or were they corrupted flesh?
Were they to the point where there was no possible way
to be redeemed because they were a mockery?
They were a concoction of the disobedience
of the fallen ones, and this kind of thing.
Kind of mocked the very idea that Jesus

(01:12:17):
could one day come in the future and redeem man
times through the blood in no other way.
In other words, is God finite?
I don't believe that to be true.
I don't know.
I don't think so.
But was there a plight?
Was there something at stake here
that we completely disregarded because of precious moments

(01:12:38):
theology, where it's like, oh, and with weak Jericho,
the animals are so cute on the ark.
And then like, oh, it was a precious story.
One of those genocides, mutilation,
is this and that as genital decapitations.
And also, there's a weird stuff in the Old Testament
that really couldn't make a good movie without censorship.

(01:12:58):
I don't really want to see that, honestly.
Maybe make a good like, I don't think
Game of Thrones would put some of that stuff in there.
But the Bible would probably think Game of Thrones is a shame.
But yeah, I mean, not to say anything here.
That's not my goalie.
Like I said, I don't know anything.
I don't know everything that I'm meant to say.
I'm just a guy wanting to know why this trend exists

(01:13:22):
and why, where are we at?
And like, this is a viable reason.
Maybe it is.
Maybe it's not, maybe there's maybe more on that.
I'm just discounting a lot of things
and honing them on this one thing.
But there's something I can't hear over and over and over.
It's like, why?
I just look at the consistency.
Jesus coming here doing his ministry, and he is loving.

(01:13:43):
And he is the past Ramana of rabbis.
And he's not overdoing the Roman Empire.
He did not conquer.
He did not make all things right.
In fact, things were pretty crappy when he left,
in terms of how things were and where things went.
Like, look at the Middle Ages.
Look at the, look at 9-11.
Look at all these things.
Like, he didn't redeem that.

(01:14:03):
So obviously, he wasn't the propitiation
for all of creation.
He was the propitiation for whatever,
what needed to be done from the beginning.
And so I don't know.
I think a lot gets discounted.
And that's kind of where I'm at in this journey.
Again, impossible explanation.
It's not a finite.
This is being answered right here, guys.

(01:14:24):
Right here, I have it.
The bad news is time flies.
The good news is you're the pilot.
And nothing is impossible.
The word itself says I'm possible.
And again, I really appreciate you.

(01:14:45):
Thanks for letting me say all this.
And again, I'm kind of one of those topics
that not a lot of, thank you for your patience, for real.
This doesn't get a lot of breathing time.
And I feel like I've said a lot.

(01:15:07):
And I welcome anything you have to say in response
or anything that you want to comment on.
That's basically all I really had to say.
I kind of wanted to surmise and say, all this to say,
I think there's beauty.
This is what compelled me to get back into the story.
I'm a filmmaker.
That's what I do for a trade.
But I see the story of, OK, who are we?

(01:15:29):
What is our role in this big thing?
Sometimes we feel very meaningless and insignificant.
We're just really not part of the full on.
We're not making a difference.
And when Jesus says, what's the biggest thing?
What's the biggest thing we need to do?
And he says, you love God and love people.
I think that kind of, basically, when you divert from that,

(01:15:49):
when you divert from the big T truth,
I say little T and big T. The little T's would be like, OK,
what's the truth about what's really happened to the
Palestinians right now?
Or what's happening in Russia and Ukraine or anywhere in this
world, at that orphanage down the road with that weirdo?
What's really happened?
Those are important things.
But I wanted to say, where's the focus lost?

(01:16:11):
And why is the church so broken and fractured and
continuing to be what it is in our world here in Western
evangelical Christianity?
Maybe that's why.
I don't know.
I'd say that with open arms, wondering.
Follow to find out.
Yeah, that's where I'm at.

(01:16:33):
First of all, thank you for sharing everything.
I can tell you put a lot of thought and process into your
notes and everything.
And it's really nice to hear.
I mean, for those of you listening, this isn't the side
of Zach Kidd that I see all the time.
We do have conversations.
And I would say I do see the majority of what
you talked about.
But I feel like you really put more thought knowing that

(01:16:58):
we're going to be recording.
So I feel like I saw a little bit more.
It is kind of like a fuller picture than what our typical
phone conversations are like.
So thank you for opening up.
I think you are asking all the right questions.
I mean, I think your heart is in the right place.
That you are people focused.
You are more interested about the well-being of people

(01:17:19):
around you as opposed to yourself.
It's a very selfless way of looking at the world.
You're talking about what's happening with Ukraine, Russia,
and Israel, and Palestine, and the geopolitics of that, and
how people are impacted.
Not just the surface level of, oh, this is what I see on the
news, how are people impacted by that?
I think you are asking the right questions with that.
And I think you are asking the right questions with the

(01:17:41):
Bible, as far as you're kind of challenging the status quo
narrative that the Church gives you.
Of course, a lot of the stuff that you talked about, I do
have different thoughts on that.
I wouldn't necessarily say that I disagree, although I do
disagree at some points.
I have different viewpoints on other things.
And I think that's where we wrestle with the scriptures,

(01:18:05):
wrestle with what is true all the time.
I think every single person does it.
If you are a Bible literate, an inerrancy, and everything
that comes along with that, I feel like there's not too much
room to wrestle with that.
But yeah, if you are honest with what you are reading, if
you are honest with what you are hearing in the Church, you

(01:18:26):
should be wrestling with the scripture.
Every single person should be wrestling with it.
That's what we do.
We negotiate with what the Bible says.
I wouldn't even say the literalists even take the
entirety of the Bible to heart.
Because like you were talking about, you've got areas of

(01:18:47):
genocide, and you've got liturgical laws that nobody
really adheres to.
And it's this cognitive disincentive.
It's explaining a way and trying to justify everything
so that it fits your current affair, political, social
view of what you should be as a Christian, what you should

(01:19:10):
be as if you're a Jewish person following the Bible, if
you're a Hindu following Islam, the Quran, if you
follow the Quran.
So yeah, everybody wrestles with it.
Everybody negotiates with the text.
And it's hard to find an absolute truth with

(01:19:31):
everything.
I think the best thing you can do is to dig as deep as you
can and come up with a plausible solution to basically
say that things are inerrant and unrefutable.
It is such a disservice to not only yourself, but to

(01:19:52):
humanity.
So I don't think, I believe there's a God.
But if there is a God, I would think that he would hope that
we all wrestle with the truth as well.
Yeah.
Wow.
Well said, man.
I love that.

(01:20:14):
How can you not?
And you and I, I've known you over 10 years.
And over 15 years, maybe.
I see the sincerity in you.
And even just going into social media, the level of
consistency that you have in terms of asking really tough

(01:20:36):
questions in what you're looking at in your posts and
just things like that where it's unearthing something.
Where it's like, you either do this and go, all right, I'm
just going to ask too many questions.
And I felt that kind of vibe for people.
And I think that's the majority.
I don't think I could start a denomination thing and go,

(01:20:56):
I'm going to create a denomination called the
Assemblies of Unearthing the Nephilim of God.
Like, well, it's something that's kind of like, these are
some things that may have been.
And they may have influenced this.
And that might be the answer to that.
But end of the day, it's like you said, we are wrestling.
And we're in the here and now too.
So it's like there's only so much that I wasn't there.

(01:21:19):
I wasn't there.
I can rely on this.
I can rely on this to a certain level.
But saying you're a repeatable, I don't know if that
really gets you anywhere.
And I've seen people do that too.
And it's great if you're like the most incredible.
I'm not a scholar.
I'm just a guy.
It feels good.
It makes you feel good when you have all the answers.

(01:21:39):
So if everything is inerrant, you really have nothing
to negotiate with.
Yeah.
And so everything is explained.
Everything is black and white.
Everything is this is the way you should live.
And this is the way you should do this and this.
And it feels comfortable.
Yeah.
And I mean, everybody wants to feel comfortable.

(01:22:01):
They want that.
Yes.
I can see why people desire that and why people would want
to soak in that comfort.
But like you said, step out of your comfort zone,
you're going to see a whole brand new world that actually
feels more like reality.
I need to say that.
Yeah.
There's a security blanket to putting these things in place

(01:22:23):
like that.
Maybe even a facade to some people.
But oh, yeah.
I cannot be challenged here.
And I feel like those are the people that are least likely,
to have a debate.
How often do you see debates, by the way?
I don't see them very often.
I would see political debates.
But those are those things, right?
I see things called debate, like quotation marks.
Oh, OK.
Disguisances, or are you saying like I would say I.

(01:22:45):
Jaby jabbers.
Jaby jabbers.
I'm going to tell my quote truth, which is my dogma.
Yeah.
And I don't care what you say because I'm
going to talk over you.
It's honestly kind of frustrating.
It's the fucking heads, right?
They say like that kind of level, right?
Like where they're like, brrrr.

(01:23:06):
Whoever has the loudest voice wins.
Yeah, because you bring up the Nephilim
and even some of these scriptures that talk about it.
I think I've told you before, I disagree.
I think the Nephilim is a literary device
because a lot of the Old Testament
and even the New Testament is very

(01:23:29):
inspired by the Book of Enoch.
Enoch was written a long time ago.
And even you get like the biblical laws are,
some of them are directly ripped off
of like the laws of Haram, which are like Egyptian,
old Egyptian laws.
And I think if you're in maybe even,
I'll have to look at that again.
But you get a lot of this.
Once you start looking at the history of things,

(01:23:50):
it starts kind of breaking down what you thought
was actually real, looking at surface level,
just looking at the text of the Bible.
And then you start looking at the history.
And it's like, OK, things aren't as clear
as I thought they might be.
Honestly, I just published a book called Deweaponize
by Ryan Plenty.
I'm going to be going to talk with him pretty soon here.

(01:24:13):
Oh, no way.
I would highly suggest the book.
It's really good.
He brings up a lot of kind of tabooish topics
within the church, ones that are very clear
tied in their ideology, especially
within the last 50 years, especially
within evangelicalism.
But he goes through, whether it be the history

(01:24:36):
or breaking down the text, breaking down
the original Greek or Aramaic or Hebrew,
and talking about the words and how they could be interpreted
and how they are interpreted to use as weapons
against a certain group of people that
are usually marginalized.
So it's been very eye-opening and a lot of that.

(01:24:59):
I allow myself to listen to people like Dan McClellan.
I think I brought that to you.
And he brings up a lot of those counterpoint narratives
of what is truth and what is dogma,
what is somewhere in between, where it's like we have this
truth, but how is it broken up and interpreted
into different dogmas.

(01:25:20):
And he kind of talks a lot about that.
You get the book Jesus and John Wayne, I think I mentioned.
Yes.
That was maybe on that one.
Super eye-opening experience reading through that.
It kind of goes to the history of the rise of evangelicalism
through Pentecostalism and the big figures within that
and how they were interconnected with politics of the day

(01:25:41):
and pushing forward to now.
So once you start digging into a lot of this stuff,
it really makes you think and really
makes you wrestle even harder with what
is the truth of everything.
Yes.
So.
Right.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
He's giving me way more material than that.
And it's great.
I'm the kind of guy that like to bring it on.

(01:26:04):
Like, oh, I want to hear it.
So it's still on my list.
I need to watch.
I need to read that.
Well, you'll have to listen to my podcast
to get these references.
How much do I have to pay for that?
$9.99 a month.
That's great, man.
Four easy payments of $9.99.

(01:26:24):
Well, it's like if you were to go from here, like, OK,
well, what's next?
Someone asked me that.
What's next for you, then?
You know, because a lot of you said it's really bismal
and kind of dark.
Like, conspiracy is very dark and negative.
That's why I don't even really like the one on him.
If I get with people like my father-in-law,
they kind of turn this, you know,
what do you call that, whirlwind of negativity.

(01:26:45):
It kind of just like, rawr, rawr, rawr, rawr,
kind of goes downhill.
And there's no like, da, da, da, da.
And because we never arrive back at Jesus.
It's never like, well, hey, you know what?
Because if we truly believe in a faith that's completely
aligned in that direction, right,
then I should technically be saying, he's on the throne.
He's in control.
Why do I need to worry about it?
The justice will come, whether it's administered to my

(01:27:07):
knowledge or not, you know?
And hopefully it does.
And I want to fight for what's right.
But like, what do I need to do now?
And so I think the takeaway for me now is like, community.
Like, how can, because I disagree, not with you.
I don't know, maybe.
Well, please, if you disagree.
Well, specifically on people that say,
well, like, could we, I know you wrestle,

(01:27:28):
and especially with like, the substance manager,
Taqman, that are like deconstruction,
and what is going on with the church, and why are we,
there's a lot of, you don't have solid answers
on every single thing, because it's circumstantial,
a lot of it.
But what are the trends?
What are the, like, you've brought up the stats and stuff.
And so I honestly believe that we are the church

(01:27:49):
if we're called and we're, and we believe,
and if we believe in Jesus, he is the way, the truth,
and life, we come to him, that's it.
It's very simple and it's been overcomplicated.
And the overcomplication, I think,
leads to kind of an evil, obstructive events.
And one of them being like, the kingdom is on earth.
So now we have such and such megachurch,

(01:28:09):
Bunkety Bunkety, that's doing its thing,
and just kind of taking the focus away.
And it's putting the person on the throne,
the cult personality, this influencer, this guy,
this preacher, whoever.
And that kind of thing can be good in its moments, right?
And there's some good takeaways, there's good teachings,
but I've got friends that have come, literally right now,
I've got friends right now that have come from

(01:28:30):
Mark Driscoll's Marcel, and they've dealt with that follow-up
because they were in that, and they left it,
and they experienced it, and they saw an example
of spiritual abuse where this was not good.
This is not what was prescribed or an idea.
And like, well, it's like, what is the church?
Do we even have their pastors in the Bible?
It's like, not really, actually.

(01:28:51):
There's overseers, and yeah, there is pastors
mentioned like once.
But, sorry, not to go down a rabbit hole here,
but like, my takeaway is, it's very practical.
We are a kingdom of priests,
if we truly practice what we preach,
then we should be administering those gifts.
If you're not allowed to use them,
then they should be asking,
why am I not allowed to use these?
Why am I going in, why is everything evolving, sorry,

(01:29:12):
around a sermon?
Is that really what it all, why is that,
is there no other guys here with the gift of teaching?
And they're like, you have a gift of learning,
and you've cultivated teaching throughout,
maybe you have to give teaching, I don't know.
But like, that kind of thing where you just wanna teach
and get into it.
But there's probably a lot of other people,
but they're silenced because of the system,
which is a authoritarian system, a hierarchical system too,

(01:29:36):
clergy versus laity.
That all came about through the paganization of things.
Like another, and that's why I keep recommending,
I can't recommend it enough, pagan Christianity,
it's a must read.
I've just gotta get on the shelf.
You can take mine.
I'm having a story that you've-
Oh yeah, did I?
Yeah.
Sorry, oh, I overhyped it, I know,
but it's actually really good.
It's just a fact, it's just like, oh yeah, here's this,

(01:29:56):
but anyway, not dogging a traditional church at all,
because I know a lot of good people in there,
and they're doing a lot of really good things,
they're using those resources to help people.
Like there's one in town here
that they have everything going on, program-wise,
it's like this AA thing,
and people are truly finding like,
freedom from drugs and stuff and getting off the streets.
So like, how do I,
I don't wanna not partner with that, right?

(01:30:17):
Like, it's something good,
and I just wanna discount everything,
but I do think that like, at the heart of things,
I think for me, I have to question,
am I able to be able to use my gifts?
Am I able to, as my family, can I strengthen them?
Can I lead them towards the truth?
And like, are we gospel-centered,
are we truly living out our mission?
True mission, not just to like, be comfortable,

(01:30:38):
and like, ignore a lot of stuff.
Like, but are we really facing things and growing growth?
And so, that's kinda where I'm at.
Sorry, I didn't mean to be so long-winded on that, but.
No, like I said, don't apologize.
Be as long-
I don't know how long this is gonna be.
I feel like it's gonna be like a buzzer.
That's it.
Yeah.
No, it's, I don't even know what to say anymore.

(01:30:59):
I feel like, ooh, that's so much of a-
Fair enough.
But like, you even brought up points of interest
you think about on social media
and challenging kind of the status quo.
Yeah.
I've had people message me and tell me I'm outright wrong,
or in the case of, let's say, Palestine or Israel,

(01:31:20):
don't call me anti-Semitic or at least a Plyet.
And I even put out a quiz, like a-
A poll?
A poll.
Like a voting thing?
A poll.
And I've had people, you know, like,
how much interest or how much dedication
are you put into learning about what's going on

(01:31:40):
in the Middle East right now?
And it was, you know, I don't know anything at all.
I have listened to the news and know some basic information.
And then I even have like, I have extensive research
and I put in parentheses, like I've read books,
I've read reports, I've read, you know, all this stuff.
And I've really, you know, done my research.
And I only had like maybe a few people

(01:32:02):
that actually responded with, you know,
I have extensive research.
And I reached out to each of them and I was like,
you know, I'm really interested in what resources he has
for this kind of thing, because I want to learn more.
I want to learn more.
I want to be able to, you know, even if it's, you know,
a counterpoint to what I've read, like I want to read it.
Yeah.
And there was one person that I was like,
I was like, can you use some resources?

(01:32:23):
And they're like, I was like, well,
I only really watch a couple of YouTube videos.
Like, I can send you those links.
And I hear him thinking like,
extensive research doesn't necessarily mean
a couple of YouTube videos.
I was gonna say, as a conspiracy guy, right,
I guess I'm that guy, I've gotten so much crap,
like that I was like, well, this is knee-jerk reaction.
Oh, YouTube, YouTube.

(01:32:47):
And like, and it's like, so I've always taken that as,
oh, no, I'm, I want to be, you know, like honest here
and actually do more than just that.
And like, it is, I've always striven to like be above the,
just that margin of like, oh, it's a YouTube low level,
whatever comes in your algorithm thinking.
And I was trying my hardest not to,
like I didn't jump on it.
I, you know, I was serious.
I actually checked out the resources that this person gave me

(01:33:09):
and then we had a whole conversation about it.
You know, it got a little bit more intense
as the conversation went on.
But in the end, we realized, we reiterated
that we're friends and we love each other.
But it just made me realize like,
a lot of people that I have these conversations with,
when I do have the conversations, even aside the poll,

(01:33:32):
or aside from the poll,
usually when I have the conversation
and it does get a little heated,
I will throw out the question like, you know,
what resources do you have?
I would love to, you know, dig deep
to understand your side of things.
Way to deescalate.
And I haven't really found that I get much feedback
back on that side of things.
It's more of, they're just seeing what's on the news.

(01:33:55):
They're just seeing what they've been told
from other people.
Third party, you know,
they're not doing their due diligence to look out.
And I feel like with the age of the internet
and intelligence of, you know,
you can search for anything at any time, anywhere.
And even with like, you know, AI, you know,

(01:34:18):
building to the stages that it is,
I find that people are not actually
doing their due diligence to allow themselves time
to actually dig into some of this stuff.
It's more of just, you know, the information's out there,
so I'm just gonna let other people tell me.
Yeah.
It's just such an easy cop out.
And I really wish, and I do encourage everybody listening

(01:34:40):
that if you are interested in a topic
or if you feel passionate about it,
when somebody brings up a topic and you feel hurt by it,
if it impacts you inside and you feel deeply about it,
to a point where you wanna lash out and say,
no, you're wrong, take a break, take a breath

(01:35:03):
and do some research.
Look into yourself, do the due diligence
and try to understand where the other person's coming from
first before you, you know,
go and jump into a conversation.
Because if you're not going into a conversation to learn,
if you're going in emotionally,
you're not gonna learn anything.
In fact, you're gonna lose friends.

(01:35:24):
That's all I can say.
So, well said.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say, if you,
if you mentioned all your conversations in life
over anything difficult in life was only done
on YouTube comments or on a comment platform of some sort,
and like that included anything from family to everything
you've talked about with your grandparents,

(01:35:45):
it'd be like, the only,
we don't sit at the dinner table with you,
it's we get on YouTube and we comment on each other's,
no, I'm just kidding.
But that's kind of where that level,
you're like, I'm beating away from each other.
I don't like when you're believing it wrong.
You're right about the emotional thing.
I've actually taught myself to like,
whatever it is, like, oh,
I wanna say something snarky to that.

(01:36:06):
No.
And then I have to ask, like, not that I'm so perfect,
I usually fail.
So sometimes I've taught myself,
I've been like, is this bringing value?
Is this gonna make my life better?
That knows, I don't know, of course I don't know that person.
And I've like, oh, I should delete,
I have a good paragraph of snarkiness
that's actually well written.
Art, yeah, great.
Shakespeare loves it.
Really not worth it.

(01:36:27):
And like, cause I'm gonna have to nurse that thing,
go back and maybe, but yeah, like, it's crazy, man.
And I'm not saying you shouldn't comment on things
I'm saying like, for me,
I'm into this thing from like, where am I going?
What was I really planning to do today?
But I like me, I like, I love this.
I love that there's a platform out there

(01:36:48):
and that we're coming out of the caves,
so to speak of the comet caves,
to like actually have a dialogue and stuff
and like be able to, even in the church too, it's hard.
There's just, you know, there's, again, there's a lot of,
you know, as a church goer, I see just the going
and not a lot of, like even in like our,
we belong to a community group,
it's hard to get that to be a norm

(01:37:10):
where this is just what we just live for.
Because it doesn't revolve around that.
Like that's the thing, I keep harping on that,
but like, it revolves around a sermon
and then we kind of do stuff to kind of like accommodate that
and build that up and then, you know, money floats there.
That's good, that'd be great.
But,
it grows so much in the other ways
by being able to like address and sit around the table

(01:37:32):
and that's why I love your podcast.
Back to that, little plug.
Grub and Grace, are we breaking bread together
and like being able to have,
do you have a meaningful discussion if it's hard?
But like, can you eat with that person
and like be friends, like you said,
you're friends with that other person after,
like you're, yeah, we're still friends, yeah.
But like, in fact, you have to do all that.
And like, anyway.
Yeah.

(01:37:52):
Well, like you said,
I don't think we should go into the impression
that we have to maintain the friendship.
I think it is okay to,
if there is a very toxic relationship
that's not healthy for one or both parties,
yeah, or whoever else is involved,
we're probably better off than two, but,

(01:38:13):
I think it is okay and healthy
to let go of some relationships.
But if it is a relationship that both parties are privy
to wanting to keep, I think it is healthy to remind
and make that a focal point going into the conversation
or if you're going to make sure you come full circle
back to that.
Yeah.
That's a good reminder.

(01:38:36):
I do have hard stuff, so,
I just realized I shot the time there too, yeah.
But if there's, I mean, I got a couple more minutes.
If there's anything else, you can go on.
Well, my website is,
I don't even have a website,
there's nothing to do with this.
Do you guys have any links on that?
Yep, just pitch yourselves, yeah, yeah.
I'd like to get on a good movie right now,
like a six month show would be nice,

(01:38:57):
so I can mix money again.
So I don't even know if there's any good producers,
give me a call.
And no, don't you be throwing Harvey Weinstein at me again,
I don't want him.
Get him out of here, get him out of here.
Don't, once you've invited everybody,
what is it you do?
Because you operate the cranes for cameras, right?
Yeah, so that's kind of my bread and butter.

(01:39:18):
I got into this niche of like,
I went to school for film, but I moved in.
The job that I landed, which I found, you know,
I feel like it's a gift from God,
like here's this job, I didn't know what it was,
what it entailed, but it ended up being
camera operating on these big cranes
that do telestopic movie shots,
like real, basically just advanced movement for cameras

(01:39:38):
that can get into places that, you know,
just cool movement, like just camera movement.
What, stuff is fast and stuff's slow, big, small,
everything but drones, I hadn't really done drones,
but like, so that's the movie TV, music TV market.
And things have been slow this last year or so,
and so we're hoping things come back this next year
and that'll be really great.
But yeah, that's been it,

(01:39:59):
and it's a fun and exciting landscape, you know,
landscape with three new things.
But yeah, that's basically what I do,
is we tell stories with cameras, how do we move a camera?
What would move the story along?
You know, like, should this actor come out of the car,
the camera is above the car as it pulls in,
and now the camera slips down
and gets right next to the passenger window
as the door opens and you see your hand shut the thing,

(01:40:21):
like, stuff like that.
That can all be accomplished in a one-shot thing
with a certain length camera crane, and this and that.
So I've become an expert in that field,
and I feel very special, hyper specialized in that.
And I'm trying to find a way,
hey, do I need to leave this industry?
Like, my identity is not in film, Hollywood,
or anything like that, and it used to be.
But I realized, you know, I'm just blessed

(01:40:42):
to be able to do what I get to do
and make money doing it when I get to do it, of course.
Right now, that's not the case, but we'll see.
Yeah, maybe we'll try to get together more often
and make a YouTube channel.
Yes!
YouTube videos.
You're not the first person to say that, by the way,
in the last week.
I keep getting that, like, hey, what are you gonna do,
like a comedy or something, or something more off your alley?

(01:41:03):
I'm more, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Well, Zach, thank you.
I probably should go ahead and call you.
Yeah, my alarm is just about to go off, but,
seriously, thanks for having me come over your house.
Thanks for coming, man.
You're always welcome, and this is such a treat, man.
Thanks for letting me do this topic

(01:41:23):
and get into the weeds here.
For those who are listening, this is one snapshot
of just the conversations we have.
I feel like every time we talk on the phone,
it's just always a good time, so.
Again, thank you so much. I'm usually crying laughing
whenever I talk with you, like, there's something.
Yeah. You get my tickle belly going.
Oh, it's a brown.

(01:41:46):
I think we should end with a Pastor Sid.
Oh, yeah.
Ready? Yeah.
Oh, that's my alarm.
Oh, I thought it was me,
I thought that was the Pastor Sid instrumental lead-in.
Ready? Yeah.
Pastor Sid, you could never close the lid.

(01:42:07):
Pastor Sid.
You okay? Yeah.
Pastor Sid.
I don't know, I can think about it as, that's a quote.
When you saw me in that bathtub,
you thought I'd be great on a worship team.
I'm bringing the dogs down to the stage.

(01:42:28):
Ha ha ha.
Never let them go, never let them bite,
let them praise, let them praise, let them praise.
Praise till 2 a.m.
I'll see you in the chapel.
Getting you a credit.
Ha ha ha ha.

(01:42:48):
I brought you that special eggnog that you love so much.
I don't know how to lay the plate at this point.
Ha ha ha.
Well, all I can say is thank you,
and honestly, really appreciate it.
That's it for today's episode of Grub & Grace.

(01:43:12):
I hope you enjoyed our discussion with Zach Kidder
about our journey to seek for truth,
and also the importance of practicing good faith dialogue.
I want to give a big thank you again for Zach Kidder
for joining us on this episode.
If you like the content that we produce,
be sure to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts

(01:43:32):
or wherever you find podcasts,
as well as following us on social media.
And as always, until next time, stay curious,
keep an open mind, and celebrate the traditions
that bring us all together.
Whistle
Whistle
Whistle
Whistle

(01:43:54):
Whistle

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