December 7, 2021 • 50 mins
COL (Ret) Missy Givens shares her surprising journey through the Army over her career, and insights into how to take advantages of opportunities to create a full and rewarding career in military emergency medicine.
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Episode Transcript
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Missy Givens (00:00):
But I'm also an incredible living example of
what not to do sometimes. And soI think it's just as important
to share challenges and backwardsteps as it is to share forward
steps. So I'm going to gothrough kind of some things very
quickly and ask some questions,and you can answer them in your
mind. And then I'm going to walkthrough kind of a timeline for
(00:22):
me quickly, and then I'm reallygoing to open it up to questions
and discussion. And becausethere are so many senior very
experienced people kind oflurking in the background there,
if they want to chime in, Iwould kind of love that as well.
Because I think these sessionsare very helpful when we have
dialogue about different ways weproblem solve in our careers.
(00:45):
All right, so let's kick it off.
Um, so you know, the, when youare like young, everybody kind
of points out to there's thesethings you're supposed to do in
your career, this kind of likestepwise approach to, like
career progression, I will tellyou, that's me in the sand trap.
I don't think I ever went in theright order of anything the
entire way. Somehow it workedout for me, I'm, I wouldn't
(01:08):
change a thing about my career.
But I will tell you, whensomebody is like, Okay, you need
to do this, and then you need todo this, and then you need to do
this. Those are good guidelines.
Um, but I, in my experience, youhave to do what fits right in
your life at the time. And Ithink, probably some
sensitivities to that as a womanwho was also you know, if you're
(01:30):
looking at being a parent, ormaybe if you have something
going on with family members,where you need to care for
elderly parents, or you know,anything where life just doesn't
fit with the linear approach tothe military career. You know, I
always like to encourage people,that's okay, like, there's still
a very fulfilling way tonavigate your career that
(01:52):
doesn't always have to be in alinear direction. And sometimes
the sand traps are more fun thanthe path. So I kind of like this
visual.
And so I'm just gonna ask thesequestions. And and
unfortunately, I can't seefaces, and I can't see answers
as I would anything. But Butanswer them in your head. So you
(02:13):
know, from the time I graduatedmed school till I retired in
2020, I'm just curious how manytimes you think I was actually
assigned to an emergencydepartment? Or how many how many
years? I was actually in a MTF,emergency department, and I'll,
I'll come back to that. Um, howmany times do you think I got my
(02:34):
first choice of jobs? Or thelocation where I wanted to be?
Um, how many times did Iactually get training to do the
job that I was supposed to do?
Like, for example, the brigadesurgeon course before being a
brigade surgeon, or, you know,being getting any sort of
training on how to be aresidency director before I had
(02:56):
an RRC visit? I'll talk aboutsome of that stuff. Um, how many
times did I screw up enough toget fired? Um, that'll be a fun
one to talk about. How many jobsdid I dislike? Asked me that
when we get to the end? Um, howmany of my own evaluations did I
write in a, and I'll go all theway back, I'll go back to a 30
(03:18):
year career because I actually,you know, started in the
military, before medical schoolwith West Point, so I'll count
that as well, because we hadevaluations back then, too.
And then, how far in advance doyou think I plan my retirement?
You know, they talked about 18months out, start thinking about
it kind of thing. So how long doyou think I did to do that? And
(03:41):
what what do I have to say aboutthat? Alright, so here's the
timeline, and I'm gonna flythrough it, because when I get
through it, I'm gonna, I'm goingto talk about some principles I
earned, but then I want I wantto use this timeline as a chance
to kind of open up the door forsome questions. All right, so
um, a lot of people don't knowthis. But um, so I went to
(04:02):
military academy, but believe itor not, I was actually kicked
out of the military academy fora year. So I started my career
off stellar, I was kicked outand let back in and you know,
still went out swinging 30 yearslater, so you can come back from
something like that. Um, then Iwent to CES and I managed to get
a get pregnant my the end of mythird year, and if I did not lie
(04:27):
about my daughter's age to gether into daycare, I would not
have graduated on time. So therewas another time where life just
was not going on the timeline Iplan. Um, then, during my fourth
year, I decided I want to doemergency medicine, I'd already
matched to family medicine. So Iwent and I did that internship.
And when I left that to do em,they took my top block eval and
(04:49):
decided to change it to a centerof mass because I was abandoning
this specialty. I saw Marco onthe line. I would love for him
to chime in because Marco wasactually Fighting for me to be a
resident at Darnell. And I wasdenied because I was over
qualified because I'd alreadydone an internship. And at that
time, Darnell was just a one tothree program. So that plan
(05:13):
didn't work out for me. So Iwent, I went to the first cab,
and when I got my orders, I wassupposed to go to second
brigade, which was a nondeployed brigade, I had, you
know, a baby at that time andthought I was going to be, you
know, living in Fort Hood doingthe brigade surgeon thing. When
I signed into Fort Hood, theysaid, We reassigned you, you
(05:34):
need to be on a plane to Bosniain three days, so, so I had
three days to find childcare anda house and, and get on a plane.
And then when I came back, I, Ithen switched brigades and was a
flight surgeon. And right afterI found out, I was going to the
flight surgeon course I foundout I was pregnant again. So I
hid my pregnancy while I'd nowget a flight surgeon course.
(05:57):
And, and then when I got to myunit, I couldn't do anything
because I was I was pregnant,you know, I mean, obviously, I
could still practice medicine,but I couldn't fly. So I didn't
get to do any of the fun stuff.
And then I did my year residencyat BMC, which, as I mentioned, I
was trying to go to Fort Hood,because I wanted to train with
Marco and all this smart peoplethere. So BMC was not my first
choice, but I had a greatresidency there. Then I wanted
(06:20):
to do critical care. And backthen they were not allowing
critical care, emergencymedicine to get boarded and
critical care. So at the time,David Ella, just you know, as a
consultant, and he's like, he'slike, that's not he's like,
we're not going to supportcritical care. Why don't you go
do toxicology wasn't what Iwanted to do. I was kind of mad
at him at the time, it ended upbeing the best thing that ever
(06:42):
happened to me. So I owe him athank you. But it really wasn't
what I wanted to do. Because Iwas didn't didn't know anything
about it, but it turned out tobe a good thing.
So then, um, and actually, oh,let me talk about fellowship,
because when I was infellowship, your contract says
that you cannot volunteer or youcannot be paid. So technically,
(07:05):
when I was in fellowship, Icould not work in the ER, um,
because it would either bevolunteer work or paid work. I
think they revised the contractsince then. But I actually had
to like go through all kinds ofhoops to just be allowed to work
in the ER while I was infellowship. So that was a very
interesting fight as well. ThenI'm off I went to Madigan and I
(07:29):
was supposed to deploy for OEFall excited about it. The week
before I deployed I broke myleg. And I had to tell one of my
very favorite colleagues that hewas going in my place What an
asshole I was. Fortunately, hetook my 16 six month deployment
and I took his 13 month or so itended up being fair in the end,
but boy did I feel like a pieceof crap. When I had to tell him
(07:52):
he had to leave his wife and kidin a week because of my bad
decision making on a ski slope.
Um, so then off I will after Icame back from from Bosnia, I
went to be a PD out Fort Hoodprobably one of my favorite jobs
and there's several Fort Hoodpeople on the call and and it's
those people that that reallymade that a special assignment
(08:12):
for me. Um, during that time, Iwent back over to Iraq and oh,
by the way, got got divorce. Sokind of figured, you know, out a
new lifestyle for myself as asingle parent at that time. Then
I got my job at SOC AF and Iwill tell you how I got it. I
happened to be in the room andsomebody called Steve Tanksley
to offer him the job and hedidn't want it, um, because he
(08:34):
didn't want to move overseas.
And so I literally got that jobbecause I overheard a
conversation it was in the roomand was like, Can I do that, and
somebody really put their puttheir neck out for me, because
there there wasn't room forwomen at the time in those jobs.
And so it was actually the chiefof staff that snuck out that was
like, I don't know why we're nottaken, you know, this person.
(08:57):
Let's go ahead and open this upto the women. So that was, that
was pretty cool. Um, I got intoa lot of a little, a little bit
of hot water there. I actuallydidn't find out about it until
later, I bought some labequipment to take to the
continent with me. And it waskind of progressive point of
care testing at the time. Well,if any of you have heard of that
(09:20):
company, Toronto, so I'm now aI'm now a, a witness for
Elizabeth Holmes probably goingto jail someday for using bad
lab equipment. So that's anotherstory I can happily tell you
about. When I left sock app, Idid a sports medicine
fellowship. I like Sports Med,but I realized I didn't want to
do it full time. It's just it'svery procedurally based. And I
(09:43):
like it. But but I just founddriving an ultrasound all day
wasn't my thing. So I pursuedsomething and then I realized,
I'm not sure I like this verymuch. And then I went, I went
back to USACE, which I loved.
And there was the next time thatI that I almost got fired from
the military. They, I got pickedto be the CENTCOM surgeon I
don't want to do and I didn'twant to move. And I said, No,
(10:04):
I'm not going to do it. And theysaid, Okay, well then pay your
ad so back and, and you canleave. So that, you know, here
they were going to put me withhowever many years I had left on
my ad so so that was an almostfired from the army kind of
moment. Um, and then I left usesand went into the Special
Operations world doing some kindof nuance jobs there. And just,
(10:25):
you know, I loved every minuteof that, but I will tell you, I
was in a no four billet I was anO six and an O four billet. So I
completely took a step backwardsin my career to do a job I
loved. And then, you know, they,they put the here fill this out
for your, you know, generalofficer promotion packet, they
put that on my desk, like threetimes and, and I and I managed
(10:47):
to fill it out in the mostsloppily manner, ever, because I
knew that wasn't what I wantedto do. Then I was supposed to go
to the UAE and I was over therefor six months, TDY waiting for
my orders. Military couldn'tseem to pull it together to get
my family over there with me. SoI passed up on that job and, and
they said, Well, if you're notgoing to do it in the timeline
(11:09):
we want to do then you'rewelcome to get out. So three
months after, I thought I wasgoing to be moving to the UAE, I
retired and was out of the army.
And then COVID hit, and I was inNew York running a field
hospital. And that is that, youknow, that's the blur of my
career. Now, you don't careabout my career, it doesn't
(11:31):
matter. Every one of us has ourown career and our pathway. The
reason I walk through all ofthat is I don't know, if you
paid attention, pretty muchnothing along the way was
planned. Other than myassignment to use this, you
know, I always knew I wanted toget back to you someday. I
really learned to Lawrence waswas my mentor when I was a
student and she was facultythere. And that always stuck in
(11:51):
my head of like, Wow, what a bigdifference you can make in
somebody's life that uses sothat was an intentional
assignment. But I wanted topoint out to everybody that,
that none of this was planned.
But all of it was open doorsthat somehow I was fortunate
enough to walk through and, andended up having great
experiences. So you know, whenyou saw that, that slide of how
(12:11):
many jobs did I hate?
Absolutely. Zero, I loved everysingle one of my jobs. Um, it's,
uh, you know, surprisingly, soand most of it was was because
of the people that I had theopportunity to work with. So
what did I learn along the way,um, you know, Master Master the
boondoggle, these are a couplefun things that that I got to
(12:34):
do. And I'm just gonna throwthem up there. If somebody wants
to ask me about them. At theend, I'm happy to talk about
them. One of the things I wantto point out, that was probably
the highlight of my career wasdoing medical coverage for the
pow Mia recovery missions, ifyou've never heard of the
defense accountability agency,they literally go around the
(12:54):
world and look for remains ofloss service members. And so I
did one of those missions. And Iwill say, if you can ever get on
one of those, make your way ontoit, it is incredibly rewarding.
And it's a great workout,because you just dig all day
long. So you get to play in thedirt for fun.
So, um, that was a whirlwind.
I'm going to go through throughthe principles that I learned in
(13:17):
my career, and then I'll andthen I'll answer the questions.
So one thing that I always knowis you got to know the rules,
you have to know what your jobis, what the rules are, what the
right and left boundaries are.
But then sometimes you got tobreak them. Um, and, and you
have to know why you're breakingthem. And you have to be very
deliberate when you're doingthat. And you have to inform the
(13:39):
right people that I'm going tobreak a rule. And I'll give you
an example. There were timeswhen I was operating in Africa,
where I knew I was violatingcertain, you know, regulations.
And I went to my commander, andI was like, I was like, This is
what we need to do. And this iswhy and it's the only way to
mitigate this risk. So, youknow, I just I just really
(14:00):
learned to communicate whenyou're breaking the rules and
have a really good reason. Butyou have to know the rules
before you know you're breakingthem. And then in line with
that, when you're trying to dosomething and somebody tells you
no. Listen, why are they tellingyou? No? Is it because you just
want something personally foryourself? Or if it's something
(14:22):
that is for the good of themission or good of other people,
then you need to articulate thatbetter. You need to write your
justification better explainyour justification better,
because it's not getting acrossbecause I guarantee there are
money and resources everywhere.
You just need to go find them.
So if What if you believe inwhat you're doing and somebody
tells you no, then you just needto keep working on that
(14:46):
justification to support what itis you're asking for. Um, that's
in line with know your budgetand where the money comes from.
I will say that the thing thatprobably put me ahead of my
career the most times is Ireally did learn where the money
is. and where it hides and how,you know how to how to explain
to a commander, which bucket ofmoney I was using, and how we
(15:09):
were going to get somethingdonated from somewhere else. The
best example of this was when Iwas in sock AF, um, you know, we
didn't have any evacuationplatforms. So I spread all over
the continent with evacuationtimes that were upwards of 36
hours. And, you know, I got tothe point where we would
literally land in airfields, andI would walk around and look at
(15:31):
all the aircraft and theserandom airports in Africa. And
I'd go introduce myself towhoever owned that plane just to
make friends just in case I everneeded them. And I was in the
chair and happen to come acrossa plane that was parked on the
runway, and I started askingquestions of, like, who's
playing? It's that, um, and itturned out, I was at a
department of state plane thatnobody was using, and then
(15:54):
you're like, Well, why aren'tthey using it, and then I found
out that nobody had everpurchased the maintenance
package for the plane. Soliterally, it was like a plane
sitting on a runway in Africathat was brand new, that
somebody just didn't fill outthe right paperwork to use. So
of course, I'm like, Can I haveit and you know, figured out the
process to do that. So you know,filled out probably a stack of
(16:16):
paperwork, this big, to havethis plane donated from the
Department of State to thecountry of Niger, and we built
an E back platform around it.
And it was very doable, you justhad to fill out the paper and
write the justification. Um, butit comes with like, opening your
eyes and seeing what yourresources are. And knowing that
there's all these various potsof money out there, and you have
(16:39):
to like, you have to be willingto stick your hand in the pot
and grab it, or else somebodyelse will. Um, so the other
piece I like to point out is, isyou are a cog in the machine.
And so when you are asking forthings, everything you're asking
for, should be, you know, forthe good of the machine, or, you
know, someone in there, we allhave our personal needs and our
(17:02):
personal interests, but at theend of the day, we're in the
military, and it's this big, youknow, machine that keeps moving
forward with or without us. Andthat may sound very, very
heartless, but it's, it's thereality of the situation, you
know, the the day I got out ofthe military, it didn't miss me,
you know, it kept on moving justlike it did when I was in it
and, and still doing stuff. AndI think the earlier you embrace
(17:23):
that in your career is thatthere, you're a replaceable
part, and there's somebodythat's gonna come along and do
great things, they might notlook exactly like you did, but
but there's really great peoplealways come in. And that's,
that's what we should bebuilding, we should be building
a self sustaining self buildingmachine all the time. And so be
very careful about you know,personal interests versus
(17:47):
organizational interests. Now,on the flip side of that look
out for each other, because themachine is not looking out for
you. So you know, as peers, ascolleagues, as mentors, as
mentees, we all have to look outfor each other because the
machine doesn't care. And we'rethe only ones who really can
take care of each other.
(18:07):
Um, the next kind of thing Iwanted to kind of point out is
sometimes you really got to knowwhen you have to put yourself
out there as a leader, kind of,you know, take that big, bold
step and step forward and say Igot it, and then and then when
are the times when you just needto get in line and do what
you're being told and be afollower. I struggled with that
(18:29):
a lot. I mean, anybody who knowsme knows I'm not very good at
keeping my mouth shut. And, anddoing as I'm told, and I had to
learn I had, you know, I kind ofgot put in my place a couple
times along the way. And, youknow, I would say whichever end
of the spectrum you fall on, youknow, if you're like me and far
on the right side, and alwaysthe one kind of being, you know,
(18:50):
Problem Child in the front,check yourself back a little
bit. If you're on the other endof that spectrum, and you like
to just kind of fall in line andnot not be the standout one, you
know, every once in a while, dipyour toe out, see what it feels
like out there. And I would sayjust try and, you know, try and
auto correct to which end of thespectrum you live on, we need
both. We need we need both typesof people but but you know,
(19:13):
leaders need to learn to operatein their discomfort zone as
well. And I just felt like I hadto throw this in here because
this is something that I saw atthe very end of my career that
really just made me checkmyself. So this is generally
gada. He's some look at hischest like I don't have to say
any more than look at his chest.
But he's he retired as a threestar out of Special Operations
(19:34):
Command. And I did hisretirement physical for him and
he doesn't mind me sharing thisat all when he was getting ready
to retire for his retirementceremony. He wanted His Command
Sergeant Major to deliver aceremony and in the great big,
you know, World of the army andprotocol. The protocol office
for the Army refused to host itceremony if he had an enlisted
(20:00):
person deliver his ceremony andyou know, for the general
officers when they retire, it'slike this big deal with a
Protocol Office. And it's, youknow, it's funded, and there's,
there's all this fanfare thatgoes along with it. And they
literally were going to denythis three star, his promotion
ceremony, um, because heinsisted on having an enlisted
(20:20):
member be his keynote speaker athis ceremony. And he, you know,
he stuck with it, he ended upnot having a sponsored
retirement. But I thought thatwas just such a shining example
of, you know, like, nobody inthis system is special, you
know, and there's these rules,and all of us fall victim to the
rules sometimes that are justnonsensical. And so, you know,
(20:42):
we just try and leave it alittle better than what we found
it. Um, but But yeah, I reallymade me check myself when you
kind of are get that sense ofentitlement of like, you know,
I'm a colonel, I get this, orI'm a doctor, I get this, and
I'm, like, you know, here's thisthree star who couldn't even get
his retirement ceremony after30, I think 37 or 38 years of
service, you know, couldn't evenget what he wanted at his
(21:07):
retirement ceremony. So reallywas an entitlement check for me.
Um, and this is kind of kind ofjump in, jump in topics a little
bit, but I think, you know, oneof the things that, that we all
struggle with, is trying to findthat balance between being a
doctor and being a militaryofficer. But I think it's a
really natural fit to be thelink between the operational
(21:31):
world and the clinical world,you know, like, like, I think
those two things are naturallymarried, you know, if you really
care about your, about your guysthat are in the operational
world, that is, that is where,you know, being a physician
comes alive, because you get tocare for them, you don't just do
medicine, you actually get tocare for them. And so I really
encourage everybody to explorethose linkages, which I think
(21:52):
it's as er, Doc's, you know,like, if they're not sticking in
a chest tube, or starting acentral line, what am I doing, I
think there's a lot of value inbeing, you know, the person that
looks out for them, and thenalso does the operational
planning to make sure that thateverything is well prepared to
do the best we can for them inany circumstance.
(22:13):
So in this, this comes to, like,my next point is that, you know,
practicing medicine is, is justnot the, it doesn't always
equal, you know, caring forpeople. And I would say, you
know, really check yourselfsometimes and say is, am, am I
carrying medicine, I don't likewhere it's going, you know, I am
starting a company, because Idon't like where it's going, and
(22:34):
I want to do something to changeit. And I find, sometimes
medicine asks us to do thingsthat that, um, they don't feel
right, they don't feel right andcaring for the person, kind of
thing. And, and, you know, Ijust kind of encourage everyone
to, to examine, like, whythey're in medicine, why they're
in the military, what theirbeliefs are on taking care of
(22:56):
people and really, you know,really continue to challenge
where the system tries to takeus. Because I think we have to
own this as physicians, I think,you know, it's easy to get into
protocols and rules, andfinances and billing, and, you
know, all these things that justmove us further and further away
(23:16):
from compassionate care. And so,you know, I just have to put
that plug in, because it'sreally, it's really an important
part of my life right now oftrying to go back to actually
caring for people. And in doingthat, throughout your military
career, nothing, you know,nothing will serve you better
than developing people aroundyou, and then growing this very
(23:38):
deep network, because as yousaw, you know, throughout my
career, it was really was reallythe people that that make your
career, you know, the jobs comeand go, but, but the people
really matter and, and, youknow, I mean, I, I can go down
the list of attendees in thisactual lecture and tell you how,
probably, I think 80% of themhave touched my career in a way
(24:01):
that was so meaningful, and I'mso grateful for him. So please,
all of you, thank you for beingpart of my career, because it
would have been the same withoutyou. But that will continue post
career. I mean, I'm really, youknow, we're tapping into our
networks now for my currentcompany, and it's just fun, it's
fun to have these people youtrust that you can, like move on
to a different phase of yourlife with and be able to connect
(24:23):
and do great things with them.
So develop that now. I'm inthis, you know, this is just a
little little bit of me of like,you know, you're in the
military, you know, and but Ithink all of us like to be
unique, you know, we all like tolike to stand out in our own
ways. And so, I think it'sreally important to understand
yourself and understand whereyou fit in with the organization
(24:45):
and then what it is about youthat is unique, that truly makes
the organization better. And soin order to do that, you have to
understand the uniformity piecebe able to to be uniform when
you need to And then be able tobe unique when, when the
situation calls for a uniqueskill. And then I already
addressed this careers don'talways go in a linear manner,
(25:09):
you can go down, you can go up,you can go sideways, it's all
okay. It'll work itself out. Andthen probably I think this is my
last one is most of your growthis going to occur when you're
uncomfortable if there's a jobthat scares you, or if you think
you're going to go to a placewhere there's a lot of
uncertainty, you really growprofessionally, when you take on
(25:30):
the hard stuff and do the thingsthat are unfamiliar. But you
don't have a support networkwhen you do that. And like I
said, the people that are kindof attending this lecture, a lot
of them were mine. So and thenthe last, the last one is
retirements, really nice standuntil retirement, it's really
nice to wake up and go, I took abreath, and I got paid today. So
(25:51):
that was kind of my last takehome point is if anybody's
considering getting out.
Everybody has their own lifegoals, but it really is nice to
get paid to breathe. And nowthat was my whirlwind. And I
really want to take takequestions. So I guess grace,
your you've been kind ofmonitoring the chat board. So I
(26:13):
will be happy to feel questions.
I tried to kind of fly throughthat and and open it up and say,
you know, what are people'sthoughts?
Unknown (26:24):
Absolutely, ma'am. And thank you very much for that
presentation. I had several ofmy own personal questions, but I
guess those are probably bestaccomplished over a beer telling
a couple of those stories. Sothe first question comes from
major lion. How did you knowwhen it was time to get out? And
(26:45):
what really was your cue?
Missy Givens (26:48):
Um, so that's a great question. So as I
mentioned, you know, I hadplanned to go to the UAE and was
going to send stand up thetrauma center there love my team
love the job was over there TDYfor six months, my I was
supposed to get to your PCsorders with my daughter
accompanied, and in the militarycouldn't get out of its own way
(27:10):
and get my daughter, herpassport in time to start
school. And I had kind ofreached that point in my career
where I had sacrificed my familyover and over and over and over
again. And I and I finally justjust said, today's the day, I'm
going to say no. And, and alsoit was also my commitment was up
so and so you know, I can't Idon't know what I would have
(27:35):
done if I didn't have a youknow, I was blessed with a
commitment that didn't give mechoices. So I think it's much
harder for people that don'thave a commitment. Um, you know,
my commitment took me all theway up to my retirement. So I
think my choices were easier onbut I will say, you know, that
was a line in the sand momentfor me because it was just so
(27:56):
ridiculous that that I was kindof done, I think you, you get to
a point where you feel you'vedone, you've you've given and
you've served and you've donegood things. And I also started
to feel old I didn't as I taughtpeople, I couldn't relate as
well. And I felt like it wastime for me to go to pasture and
(28:16):
let somebody that was fresherand closer to the issues. Step
in so so it's kind of acombination of those two things
of feeling like it's time youknow, it was it was time for me
to to let more talented and moreyou know, folks that are closer
to the fight step into the someof the things I was doing.
Unknown (28:41):
Thank you for that humble opinion there, ma'am. The
next question comes from ColonelLee. And he specifically says
thank you for your perspectiveand an amazing career and
experiences. His question iswhat non medical experience or
training has unexpectedly servedyou well in your life?
Missy Givens (29:03):
Whoo, Max, leave throw it out in the fire with
some questions here. Um, wow.
Um, so I will say and this isit's actually in every thing I
ever write. You know, when yougo places you have to write your
leadership philosophy. And whenI was at uses, I had to write my
educational philosophy. And it'salways founded on the words of
my powerlifting coach incollege. Coach Paul Christopher,
(29:25):
he told me one day I was being alittle whiny, whiny punk, and
he's like, he's like, you know,Missy if you're not sore every
day for the rest of your lifeyou're not working hard enough.
And obviously that was aboutweightlifting and working a
little harder but I I reallytook that to heart in terms of
being you know, tackling the theintellectually hard things
(29:48):
emotionally hard things andbeing uncomfortable because
that's where growth occurs. Andyou know, I still credit him to
this day. I adore this manbecause he was a He was a
philosophy professor at WestPoint. And I never forgot that
quote. And so, so yeah, Ilearned it in the squat rack.
And anybody who knows me in my,in my weightlifting, you know,
(30:09):
life knows, the best lessons arelearned in the weight room.
Unknown (30:17):
Absolutely. And a comment here from major Kailyn,
who's currently deployed, thatthey, she appreciates your
amazing career and your rulebreaking has made a huge
difference. And she also wouldlike to mention that they are
very proud of the plane.
Missy Givens (30:35):
Yay. Yeah, you know, so I have to give a thank
you to a lot of people. So therewere several people in the Air
Force, actually, who built theprogram. Um, you know, so Alvin
was probably, you know, he's theco author on the papers I wrote
(30:55):
for that for that program. Andso I definitely have to give him
credit because they really builtthe metabolic program around the
plane. And so again, back to,you know, forming a team of
people that that are able to dothe things you're not able to
really, you know, prove to workwell, for me have an
understanding the joint world,you know, like so back to kind
(31:18):
of Max Lee's question, I thinkwhat non medical thing of the
more you use is really set setus up for this, of understanding
the other services and whattheir capabilities are and what
they're good at, versus whatyour service might not focus on
as much allowed me to tap intothe other services and and
capitalize on Oh, they know howto do this really well. So I'll
(31:40):
ask them to help me so we get abetter end product. And I think,
I think we're getting better atthat now. JTS, you know, has
really set the example for that.
And there's a lot of more innerservice collaboration. So that
that would be I guess, somethingthat's a little bit more
sophisticated than my weightroom example. But use this
really helps with that ofbuilding these, you know, cross
(32:02):
service awareness so that youcan tap into other resources.
Unknown (32:13):
MSC, so I just want to let you know, so Linda Lawrence
is on the call. Also, she'swatching with Andrea. So she
says Hi, as well and Marco,posted to everyone that you did
a fantastic job, but really notnot a no brainer for you to do
something like this for us. Sothere's a couple more questions
(32:33):
that we were gonna ask you. Solooking back at your illustrious
career and your timeline foreverything, is there anything
that you can think of that youcould have done or may have done
to help you transition to yourcivilian now job and career.
Missy Givens (32:52):
Um, while I'm still I'm actually still in the
phase of learning to be acivilian, I will, I've found,
you know, so it's just funny, Ijust actually got off the phone
with a bunch of venturecapitalists, um, I, I've, I know
nothing about the business andfinance world and this year has
been like this, you know, I feellike I'm a resident again,
(33:15):
trying to like learn a newlanguage, I would have paid a
lot more attention to like thehealth care business side of
things like I really wish Iwould have learned a lot a lot
more along the way because I'mtaking a crash course in it
right now. The The other thingis, is like being aware of how
(33:36):
culturally indoctrinated you arein the military, you do not
realize your language and yourmannerisms. And some of the
phrases you use are so militaryand then when you get in a non
military setting, it can bereally, some people find it
charming, other people find itoff putting, but I think you
(33:57):
have to be very self aware of,you know, for me, it's how
aggressive I come across or howlike, you know, structured when
I really like I just don't seemyself as that at all. But I
really had to add you know, someemotional intelligence on how
you come across to others havingthat military background and
just just the words we chooseand some of the lingo and stuff
(34:19):
like that so I think that'sthat's been the steepest
learning curve for me as acivilian
Unknown (34:29):
so that's really great advice for all of us thinking
about like, as far as thetransition and knowing you know,
that it's in the futuresomewhere whether it be you
know, one year for some of usfive years for the 10 year plan
first for some other people so
Missy Givens (34:44):
add something else to that though No, I would I
would say you know, embraceembrace your military culture
because I will say like in thislatest, you know, venture that
I'm doing with home for and helppeople love it, they love they
kind of find it Interesting init, and it, you forget how small
(35:04):
the military presence is in thegreater American, you know, in,
in the whole us like, like,we're a very small thing to the
big wide world out there. And soyou know, I'm certainly a lot I
used to always kind of be like,I'm not gonna wear my uniform,
you know, but but actually nowin this new world, it's like
people really like to hear aboutit, they like some of the
(35:26):
strengths we bring. So on theflip side, while you have to be
aware and allow for it, be proudof it and wear it, you know,
wear it well.
Unknown (35:38):
Thanks. And so you also want to know when to hold them
know when to fold him kind ofthing. And so, there's, this
year has been extremelystressful, you know, during the
COVID situation, and you know,and you have been out in the
civilian world on this andtransitioning to all of this,
um, knowing all of like stressmanagement techniques, other
(35:59):
than the physical portion of it,and bodybuilding and all that
stuff, is there anything elsethat you suggest just to keep
yourself focused, as anemergency medicine physician
through all of these changes,and military career
opportunities?
Missy Givens (36:13):
Um, I don't think I'm gonna say anything different
that isn't said in every forumon this is outsource what you
can and, and it's okay to not,you know, it's sometimes 50% is
okay. And I think givingyourself the grace, to be able
to say, I can't be good ateverything, I'm going to pick
(36:35):
what I want to be good at, I'mgoing to outsource what I can.
And then, you know, your, again,your support network, whatever
that looks like, um, keep aclose, keep a really close.
Unknown (36:49):
Eye. All right. And so there anybody else in the chat?
So either type your question inthe chat, or if you want to say
hi, to Missy, and then we have aquestion and answer box, just on
the bottom, just to let anybodyknew they want to ask a question
about here.
Ma'am, I do have a question. Youspecifically said several times,
(37:14):
how you have recovered fromdifficult points in your career.
You spoke about some grit andsome resiliency in there. What
would you say would be the mostimportant piece of that moving
forward? Because a lot of us nowfeel like we are in a one shot,
(37:36):
one failed kind of military. Sowhat would you say would be the
one thing or the one trait thatyou've really found to be able
to move forward out of out ofthose difficult circumstances?
Missy Givens (37:50):
Mmm, that's a really good question. And I you
know, there's, there's, there'sseveral, like very discreet
instances where, you know, Iwas, I was either in trouble or
I was told I was not as good asI thought I was. And I, you
know, so I'm going to call out.
Colonel John Lammy was my DCCswhen I was in, in Baghdad,
during the surge, and, you know,I'll never forget this, like I
(38:13):
was, you know, I've I wascrushing it there. I mean, we
were, we were doing 60 to 80traumas a day, you know, run in
that room, you're just, youknow, like, insanely working,
doing a great job, we had greatoutcomes. You know, I had all
the surgeons like, Stan, where Iwanted him to stand and like,
you know, like, things weregoing in my head amazing. And I
felt like and master that. AndI'll never forget this. When I
(38:37):
got my evaluation, I sat downwith Colonel amihan He gave me
you know, center mass in thearmy. That's like a, that's like
a you're good, but you're notgreat thing. And I was pissed.
Oh, my gosh, I was so like, Whatare you talking about? This is
like the pinnacle of likeemergency medicine, and I'm
crushing it, you know, and I wasso hurt by that. And he's like,
he's like, and he, he, I lovethis man. Because he was the
(39:01):
first person in my career whowas brave enough to tell me I
had room for improvement. And,you know, and I, he really said,
he's like, here's the thing, youdon't have to be all that all
the time. Um, and at the time,it was kind of hard to hear. But
he really was trying to get thepoint across of like, there's a
(39:23):
time to dial it up. And thenthere's a time to kind of, you
know, run it, let it just kindof run on its own and not be
always pushing, pushing,pushing, pushing, you know, now
obviously, this was a high tempoenvironment. So you know, it,
it's hard to turn it off, buthis advice was really well
taken. And, and I rememberedthat because sometimes as a
(39:46):
leader, it's very hard to lookyour, you know, subordinate in
the face and go this is what youneed to do better on and it's
often a very soft skill. It'snot like a Do your charts on
time or, you know, show up forwork on time, it's, uh, you have
this character trait that'sgetting in the way of you being
(40:07):
more of you. And I think as adevelopmental leader to be able
to identify that and help theperson see it and self actualize
it and move on to be a greaterversion of themselves, is a is a
huge challenge as a leader, soand I know I'm straying away
from the grit and resilience.
(40:27):
But it comes back to the pointof if you know, yourself, and
you know, where your strengthsand weaknesses are, and you
authentically know them, likeyou're not faking it, you know,
like, I mean, I probably spent agood 10 years of my career
faking it until I really didfigure out what my strengths and
weaknesses are. And I felt likeonce I personally got to the
(40:48):
point where where I embracedthose and capitalize on the
strengths, and then found goodpeople to carry my weaknesses,
that was kind of really when myresiliency blossomed, and I was
able to, like, take on thingsthat were scarier and more
challenging, because I knew if Ifailed, you know, I kind of
would know the context and howto grow from that. And so
(41:10):
failure became less scary. Myworry about what it would look
like on the outside became lessscary. And it really just came
down for me of knowing I'm doingthe right thing that's
authentically me. And if thisdoesn't work out, then I just
have to go be authentically mesomeplace else. So that's not
(41:30):
really grit resilience, but Ithink, in a way it was for me.
Unknown (41:35):
No, and I think you speak to a very good point,
ma'am. That we don'ttraditionally do very well as
physicians, which is learninghow to take a knee, right and
not being running constantly.
And it's even something that webrought up in the operator panel
that commander chick andCommander stone emphasized as
well have been able, I guess, torefill your tank, in some ways,
(41:56):
and not always having to push,push, push. And so I appreciate
that. Because I think a lot ofus and especially a lot of women
as well, we always feel the needto prove ourselves. And so we
don't necessarily step forwardwith the confidence that it's
okay to recharge our batteries.
(42:18):
And it's hard to pour from anempty cup.
Thank you for that. And so, Dr.
Gibbons along the same lines,especially in light of all the
things that have happened for inthe political realm, and
diversity inclusion has been abig push for the military this
past year. What sorts of thingsthat you had to deal with
(42:41):
through your military career,and now civilian career as a
female physician, in dealingwith different kinds of issues.
Missy Givens (42:52):
Um, I mean, you heard some of them and it and,
you know, I mean, a lot of themhave gone away, you know, I
mean, duct tape in my bellyduring during flight surgery
course, I still anymore. Um,but, you know, it was all of it,
it was like I was, you know, Iwas gonna get kicked out of a
course, if I chose to go Pom,but, um, you know, like, just
(43:13):
being denied jobs, because youmight get pregnant. You know,
though, I think some of thosethings we still have to advocate
for, I will say, when I was inthe soft community, there were a
couple of organizations that dida really great job of career
planning with their women. Andso they were, you know, these
were women that, uh, that a lotof money had been invested into
(43:34):
training them in very specificareas. And so it wasn't like,
they were just gonna throw themaside because they were
expensive. They're expensivetoys at this point. And so they
did a really good job withtrying to map out some career
planning for them of like, well,if you if you are going to have
a family, here's some good timesto do it. Here's a school to do
while you're doing that. Andit's not perfect, but at least
(43:57):
it's something that's at leastit's trying and there will never
be a right answer. That's rightfor everybody. But I think the
more we can acknowledge thatlife happens, and now let's
figure out how to make the mostof what is happening in life.
That is That doesn't haveanything to do with whether
you're a man or woman it has todo with you're a human being
that has life issues, and we asleaders owe it to those, you
(44:22):
know, around us to be able toadapt to life and make it fit
within our organization. I thinknow in a civilian world, what
I'm, you know, like there's so alot of things that bother me,
like, you know, for example,it's like as, as co founder of,
of this, you know, company,we're getting preferential look
from, you know, venturecapitalists because of having a
(44:45):
female, you know, founder, youknow, like, there's these things
and I'm like, No, well, itshould be because I'm a good
company knocks girl you know, sothere's still things that
frustrate me about positive,positive You know, pushing the
female agenda a little bit, Istill am a real believer in in
do a good job and select basedon that. So I'm all over the
(45:09):
place on this answer, I'm sorry,it um, it really is kind of I
still am always not aboutempower women, I'm gonna, like
empower people to be their bestself. And I'll stand by that,
Unknown (45:24):
ya know, at you know, personally, and I know, there's
lots of questions and I'm, youknow, interested in knowing more
especially about somebody withsuch a long career, and lots of
stuff that you've done. So we dohave one more question for me,
for you. This is from ananonymous, or somebody in the
group here, the people. So thankyou so much for speaking, ma'am.
(45:45):
How do you recommend findingthat balance, especially early
on in a career between walkingthe quote unquote, party line in
the Medical Corps, and makingwaves when something isn't
right? Additional? Do you haveany advice for the folks just
starting their careers forbalancing career advancement
with building and supportingyour family?
Missy Givens (46:08):
So I'll split those into two. So the first one
of like, knowing when to rockthe boat goes back to my like,
no, the money, no, theresources, know the rules, and
know them better than everybodyelse that you're going to go to
and try and push whatever agendait is that you're pushing.
Because Because within that liesthe beauty of what it is you're
(46:31):
trying to do, you're trying toshow them Yes, I understand all
the reasons that, you know, Ishouldn't do this, but here's
the reasons why. And there's thetipping of the scale. And, and
honestly, what will happen isyou're gonna have leaders who,
first of all don't have theenergy for it. Second of all
have other things that are moreimportant. And in you might have
(46:54):
to acknowledge that and go sitdown and shut up. But if it
truly is something that you feelneeds to be forward, sometimes
you have to come at it fromanother direction. And that's
not saying, you know, jump yourchain of command, I really did
try and inform my chain ofcommand when I was going another
direction. Because it doesn't,it doesn't work to burn bridges.
It really doesn't like don'tlight the house on fire and then
(47:15):
walk out, you know, really tryand come from several angles and
help get various perspectivesinvolved in that will that will
serve you well, when you'retrying to challenge the status
quo. Balance for family life,I'm probably a horrible advisor
on this. Yeah, it's, it's, it'shard, you know, and it is a it's
(47:41):
a different answer for everybodyon what's okay with you. I mean,
in life definitely was differentfor me, you know, once I became
a single parent, I did make sureI negotiated I write the
schedule, that's, that's thenumber one advice I can give you
is if you can be the owner ofthe schedule, and everybody
hates making schedules, it's alot of work. But I found if I
(48:04):
wrote the schedule, I you know,and I gave myself the crappiest
shifts, but I gave myself thecrappiest shifts so I could have
what I needed otherwise thatthat's a tactical skill that
worked very well for me. And Ikind of use that moving forward
of of make myself the boss so Icould decide when work was
(48:25):
important or when it wasn'timportant, and that that
requires taking on someadministrative burdens that
actually increase your workload,but give you more control of
your environment. If that makesany sense.
But I'm also an incredible living example of
what not to do sometimes. And soI think it's just as important
to share challenges and backwardsteps as it is to share forward
steps. So I'm going to gothrough kind of some things very
quickly and ask some questions,and you can answer them in your
mind. And then I'm going to walkthrough kind of a timeline for
(00:22):
me quickly, and then I'm reallygoing to open it up to questions
and discussion. And becausethere are so many senior very
experienced people kind oflurking in the background there,
if they want to chime in, Iwould kind of love that as well.
Because I think these sessionsare very helpful when we have
dialogue about different ways weproblem solve in our careers.
(00:45):
All right, so let's kick it off.
Um, so you know, the, when youare like young, everybody kind
of points out to there's thesethings you're supposed to do in
your career, this kind of likestepwise approach to, like
career progression, I will tellyou, that's me in the sand trap.
I don't think I ever went in theright order of anything the
entire way. Somehow it workedout for me, I'm, I wouldn't
(01:08):
change a thing about my career.
But I will tell you, whensomebody is like, Okay, you need
to do this, and then you need todo this, and then you need to do
this. Those are good guidelines.
Um, but I, in my experience, youhave to do what fits right in
your life at the time. And Ithink, probably some
sensitivities to that as a womanwho was also you know, if you're
(01:30):
looking at being a parent, ormaybe if you have something
going on with family members,where you need to care for
elderly parents, or you know,anything where life just doesn't
fit with the linear approach tothe military career. You know, I
always like to encourage people,that's okay, like, there's still
a very fulfilling way tonavigate your career that
(01:52):
doesn't always have to be in alinear direction. And sometimes
the sand traps are more fun thanthe path. So I kind of like this
visual.
And so I'm just gonna ask thesequestions. And and
unfortunately, I can't seefaces, and I can't see answers
as I would anything. But Butanswer them in your head. So you
(02:13):
know, from the time I graduatedmed school till I retired in
2020, I'm just curious how manytimes you think I was actually
assigned to an emergencydepartment? Or how many how many
years? I was actually in a MTF,emergency department, and I'll,
I'll come back to that. Um, howmany times do you think I got my
(02:34):
first choice of jobs? Or thelocation where I wanted to be?
Um, how many times did Iactually get training to do the
job that I was supposed to do?
Like, for example, the brigadesurgeon course before being a
brigade surgeon, or, you know,being getting any sort of
training on how to be aresidency director before I had
(02:56):
an RRC visit? I'll talk aboutsome of that stuff. Um, how many
times did I screw up enough toget fired? Um, that'll be a fun
one to talk about. How many jobsdid I dislike? Asked me that
when we get to the end? Um, howmany of my own evaluations did I
write in a, and I'll go all theway back, I'll go back to a 30
(03:18):
year career because I actually,you know, started in the
military, before medical schoolwith West Point, so I'll count
that as well, because we hadevaluations back then, too.
And then, how far in advance doyou think I plan my retirement?
You know, they talked about 18months out, start thinking about
it kind of thing. So how long doyou think I did to do that? And
(03:41):
what what do I have to say aboutthat? Alright, so here's the
timeline, and I'm gonna flythrough it, because when I get
through it, I'm gonna, I'm goingto talk about some principles I
earned, but then I want I wantto use this timeline as a chance
to kind of open up the door forsome questions. All right, so
um, a lot of people don't knowthis. But um, so I went to
(04:02):
military academy, but believe itor not, I was actually kicked
out of the military academy fora year. So I started my career
off stellar, I was kicked outand let back in and you know,
still went out swinging 30 yearslater, so you can come back from
something like that. Um, then Iwent to CES and I managed to get
a get pregnant my the end of mythird year, and if I did not lie
(04:27):
about my daughter's age to gether into daycare, I would not
have graduated on time. So therewas another time where life just
was not going on the timeline Iplan. Um, then, during my fourth
year, I decided I want to doemergency medicine, I'd already
matched to family medicine. So Iwent and I did that internship.
And when I left that to do em,they took my top block eval and
(04:49):
decided to change it to a centerof mass because I was abandoning
this specialty. I saw Marco onthe line. I would love for him
to chime in because Marco wasactually Fighting for me to be a
resident at Darnell. And I wasdenied because I was over
qualified because I'd alreadydone an internship. And at that
time, Darnell was just a one tothree program. So that plan
(05:13):
didn't work out for me. So Iwent, I went to the first cab,
and when I got my orders, I wassupposed to go to second
brigade, which was a nondeployed brigade, I had, you
know, a baby at that time andthought I was going to be, you
know, living in Fort Hood doingthe brigade surgeon thing. When
I signed into Fort Hood, theysaid, We reassigned you, you
(05:34):
need to be on a plane to Bosniain three days, so, so I had
three days to find childcare anda house and, and get on a plane.
And then when I came back, I, Ithen switched brigades and was a
flight surgeon. And right afterI found out, I was going to the
flight surgeon course I foundout I was pregnant again. So I
hid my pregnancy while I'd nowget a flight surgeon course.
(05:57):
And, and then when I got to myunit, I couldn't do anything
because I was I was pregnant,you know, I mean, obviously, I
could still practice medicine,but I couldn't fly. So I didn't
get to do any of the fun stuff.
And then I did my year residencyat BMC, which, as I mentioned, I
was trying to go to Fort Hood,because I wanted to train with
Marco and all this smart peoplethere. So BMC was not my first
choice, but I had a greatresidency there. Then I wanted
(06:20):
to do critical care. And backthen they were not allowing
critical care, emergencymedicine to get boarded and
critical care. So at the time,David Ella, just you know, as a
consultant, and he's like, he'slike, that's not he's like,
we're not going to supportcritical care. Why don't you go
do toxicology wasn't what Iwanted to do. I was kind of mad
at him at the time, it ended upbeing the best thing that ever
(06:42):
happened to me. So I owe him athank you. But it really wasn't
what I wanted to do. Because Iwas didn't didn't know anything
about it, but it turned out tobe a good thing.
So then, um, and actually, oh,let me talk about fellowship,
because when I was infellowship, your contract says
that you cannot volunteer or youcannot be paid. So technically,
(07:05):
when I was in fellowship, Icould not work in the ER, um,
because it would either bevolunteer work or paid work. I
think they revised the contractsince then. But I actually had
to like go through all kinds ofhoops to just be allowed to work
in the ER while I was infellowship. So that was a very
interesting fight as well. ThenI'm off I went to Madigan and I
(07:29):
was supposed to deploy for OEFall excited about it. The week
before I deployed I broke myleg. And I had to tell one of my
very favorite colleagues that hewas going in my place What an
asshole I was. Fortunately, hetook my 16 six month deployment
and I took his 13 month or so itended up being fair in the end,
but boy did I feel like a pieceof crap. When I had to tell him
(07:52):
he had to leave his wife and kidin a week because of my bad
decision making on a ski slope.
Um, so then off I will after Icame back from from Bosnia, I
went to be a PD out Fort Hoodprobably one of my favorite jobs
and there's several Fort Hoodpeople on the call and and it's
those people that that reallymade that a special assignment
(08:12):
for me. Um, during that time, Iwent back over to Iraq and oh,
by the way, got got divorce. Sokind of figured, you know, out a
new lifestyle for myself as asingle parent at that time. Then
I got my job at SOC AF and Iwill tell you how I got it. I
happened to be in the room andsomebody called Steve Tanksley
to offer him the job and hedidn't want it, um, because he
(08:34):
didn't want to move overseas.
And so I literally got that jobbecause I overheard a
conversation it was in the roomand was like, Can I do that, and
somebody really put their puttheir neck out for me, because
there there wasn't room forwomen at the time in those jobs.
And so it was actually the chiefof staff that snuck out that was
like, I don't know why we're nottaken, you know, this person.
(08:57):
Let's go ahead and open this upto the women. So that was, that
was pretty cool. Um, I got intoa lot of a little, a little bit
of hot water there. I actuallydidn't find out about it until
later, I bought some labequipment to take to the
continent with me. And it waskind of progressive point of
care testing at the time. Well,if any of you have heard of that
(09:20):
company, Toronto, so I'm now aI'm now a, a witness for
Elizabeth Holmes probably goingto jail someday for using bad
lab equipment. So that's anotherstory I can happily tell you
about. When I left sock app, Idid a sports medicine
fellowship. I like Sports Med,but I realized I didn't want to
do it full time. It's just it'svery procedurally based. And I
(09:43):
like it. But but I just founddriving an ultrasound all day
wasn't my thing. So I pursuedsomething and then I realized,
I'm not sure I like this verymuch. And then I went, I went
back to USACE, which I loved.
And there was the next time thatI that I almost got fired from
the military. They, I got pickedto be the CENTCOM surgeon I
don't want to do and I didn'twant to move. And I said, No,
(10:04):
I'm not going to do it. And theysaid, Okay, well then pay your
ad so back and, and you canleave. So that, you know, here
they were going to put me withhowever many years I had left on
my ad so so that was an almostfired from the army kind of
moment. Um, and then I left usesand went into the Special
Operations world doing some kindof nuance jobs there. And just,
(10:25):
you know, I loved every minuteof that, but I will tell you, I
was in a no four billet I was anO six and an O four billet. So I
completely took a step backwardsin my career to do a job I
loved. And then, you know, they,they put the here fill this out
for your, you know, generalofficer promotion packet, they
put that on my desk, like threetimes and, and I and I managed
(10:47):
to fill it out in the mostsloppily manner, ever, because I
knew that wasn't what I wantedto do. Then I was supposed to go
to the UAE and I was over therefor six months, TDY waiting for
my orders. Military couldn'tseem to pull it together to get
my family over there with me. SoI passed up on that job and, and
they said, Well, if you're notgoing to do it in the timeline
(11:09):
we want to do then you'rewelcome to get out. So three
months after, I thought I wasgoing to be moving to the UAE, I
retired and was out of the army.
And then COVID hit, and I was inNew York running a field
hospital. And that is that, youknow, that's the blur of my
career. Now, you don't careabout my career, it doesn't
(11:31):
matter. Every one of us has ourown career and our pathway. The
reason I walk through all ofthat is I don't know, if you
paid attention, pretty muchnothing along the way was
planned. Other than myassignment to use this, you
know, I always knew I wanted toget back to you someday. I
really learned to Lawrence waswas my mentor when I was a
student and she was facultythere. And that always stuck in
(11:51):
my head of like, Wow, what a bigdifference you can make in
somebody's life that uses sothat was an intentional
assignment. But I wanted topoint out to everybody that,
that none of this was planned.
But all of it was open doorsthat somehow I was fortunate
enough to walk through and, andended up having great
experiences. So you know, whenyou saw that, that slide of how
(12:11):
many jobs did I hate?
Absolutely. Zero, I loved everysingle one of my jobs. Um, it's,
uh, you know, surprisingly, soand most of it was was because
of the people that I had theopportunity to work with. So
what did I learn along the way,um, you know, Master Master the
boondoggle, these are a couplefun things that that I got to
(12:34):
do. And I'm just gonna throwthem up there. If somebody wants
to ask me about them. At theend, I'm happy to talk about
them. One of the things I wantto point out, that was probably
the highlight of my career wasdoing medical coverage for the
pow Mia recovery missions, ifyou've never heard of the
defense accountability agency,they literally go around the
(12:54):
world and look for remains ofloss service members. And so I
did one of those missions. And Iwill say, if you can ever get on
one of those, make your way ontoit, it is incredibly rewarding.
And it's a great workout,because you just dig all day
long. So you get to play in thedirt for fun.
So, um, that was a whirlwind.
I'm going to go through throughthe principles that I learned in
(13:17):
my career, and then I'll andthen I'll answer the questions.
So one thing that I always knowis you got to know the rules,
you have to know what your jobis, what the rules are, what the
right and left boundaries are.
But then sometimes you got tobreak them. Um, and, and you
have to know why you're breakingthem. And you have to be very
deliberate when you're doingthat. And you have to inform the
(13:39):
right people that I'm going tobreak a rule. And I'll give you
an example. There were timeswhen I was operating in Africa,
where I knew I was violatingcertain, you know, regulations.
And I went to my commander, andI was like, I was like, This is
what we need to do. And this iswhy and it's the only way to
mitigate this risk. So, youknow, I just I just really
(14:00):
learned to communicate whenyou're breaking the rules and
have a really good reason. Butyou have to know the rules
before you know you're breakingthem. And then in line with
that, when you're trying to dosomething and somebody tells you
no. Listen, why are they tellingyou? No? Is it because you just
want something personally foryourself? Or if it's something
(14:22):
that is for the good of themission or good of other people,
then you need to articulate thatbetter. You need to write your
justification better explainyour justification better,
because it's not getting acrossbecause I guarantee there are
money and resources everywhere.
You just need to go find them.
So if What if you believe inwhat you're doing and somebody
tells you no, then you just needto keep working on that
(14:46):
justification to support what itis you're asking for. Um, that's
in line with know your budgetand where the money comes from.
I will say that the thing thatprobably put me ahead of my
career the most times is Ireally did learn where the money
is. and where it hides and how,you know how to how to explain
to a commander, which bucket ofmoney I was using, and how we
(15:09):
were going to get somethingdonated from somewhere else. The
best example of this was when Iwas in sock AF, um, you know, we
didn't have any evacuationplatforms. So I spread all over
the continent with evacuationtimes that were upwards of 36
hours. And, you know, I got tothe point where we would
literally land in airfields, andI would walk around and look at
(15:31):
all the aircraft and theserandom airports in Africa. And
I'd go introduce myself towhoever owned that plane just to
make friends just in case I everneeded them. And I was in the
chair and happen to come acrossa plane that was parked on the
runway, and I started askingquestions of, like, who's
playing? It's that, um, and itturned out, I was at a
department of state plane thatnobody was using, and then
(15:54):
you're like, Well, why aren'tthey using it, and then I found
out that nobody had everpurchased the maintenance
package for the plane. Soliterally, it was like a plane
sitting on a runway in Africathat was brand new, that
somebody just didn't fill outthe right paperwork to use. So
of course, I'm like, Can I haveit and you know, figured out the
process to do that. So you know,filled out probably a stack of
(16:16):
paperwork, this big, to havethis plane donated from the
Department of State to thecountry of Niger, and we built
an E back platform around it.
And it was very doable, you justhad to fill out the paper and
write the justification. Um, butit comes with like, opening your
eyes and seeing what yourresources are. And knowing that
there's all these various potsof money out there, and you have
(16:39):
to like, you have to be willingto stick your hand in the pot
and grab it, or else somebodyelse will. Um, so the other
piece I like to point out is, isyou are a cog in the machine.
And so when you are asking forthings, everything you're asking
for, should be, you know, forthe good of the machine, or, you
know, someone in there, we allhave our personal needs and our
(17:02):
personal interests, but at theend of the day, we're in the
military, and it's this big, youknow, machine that keeps moving
forward with or without us. Andthat may sound very, very
heartless, but it's, it's thereality of the situation, you
know, the the day I got out ofthe military, it didn't miss me,
you know, it kept on moving justlike it did when I was in it
and, and still doing stuff. AndI think the earlier you embrace
(17:23):
that in your career is thatthere, you're a replaceable
part, and there's somebodythat's gonna come along and do
great things, they might notlook exactly like you did, but
but there's really great peoplealways come in. And that's,
that's what we should bebuilding, we should be building
a self sustaining self buildingmachine all the time. And so be
very careful about you know,personal interests versus
(17:47):
organizational interests. Now,on the flip side of that look
out for each other, because themachine is not looking out for
you. So you know, as peers, ascolleagues, as mentors, as
mentees, we all have to look outfor each other because the
machine doesn't care. And we'rethe only ones who really can
take care of each other.
(18:07):
Um, the next kind of thing Iwanted to kind of point out is
sometimes you really got to knowwhen you have to put yourself
out there as a leader, kind of,you know, take that big, bold
step and step forward and say Igot it, and then and then when
are the times when you just needto get in line and do what
you're being told and be afollower. I struggled with that
(18:29):
a lot. I mean, anybody who knowsme knows I'm not very good at
keeping my mouth shut. And, anddoing as I'm told, and I had to
learn I had, you know, I kind ofgot put in my place a couple
times along the way. And, youknow, I would say whichever end
of the spectrum you fall on, youknow, if you're like me and far
on the right side, and alwaysthe one kind of being, you know,
(18:50):
Problem Child in the front,check yourself back a little
bit. If you're on the other endof that spectrum, and you like
to just kind of fall in line andnot not be the standout one, you
know, every once in a while, dipyour toe out, see what it feels
like out there. And I would sayjust try and, you know, try and
auto correct to which end of thespectrum you live on, we need
both. We need we need both typesof people but but you know,
(19:13):
leaders need to learn to operatein their discomfort zone as
well. And I just felt like I hadto throw this in here because
this is something that I saw atthe very end of my career that
really just made me checkmyself. So this is generally
gada. He's some look at hischest like I don't have to say
any more than look at his chest.
But he's he retired as a threestar out of Special Operations
(19:34):
Command. And I did hisretirement physical for him and
he doesn't mind me sharing thisat all when he was getting ready
to retire for his retirementceremony. He wanted His Command
Sergeant Major to deliver aceremony and in the great big,
you know, World of the army andprotocol. The protocol office
for the Army refused to host itceremony if he had an enlisted
(20:00):
person deliver his ceremony andyou know, for the general
officers when they retire, it'slike this big deal with a
Protocol Office. And it's, youknow, it's funded, and there's,
there's all this fanfare thatgoes along with it. And they
literally were going to denythis three star, his promotion
ceremony, um, because heinsisted on having an enlisted
(20:20):
member be his keynote speaker athis ceremony. And he, you know,
he stuck with it, he ended upnot having a sponsored
retirement. But I thought thatwas just such a shining example
of, you know, like, nobody inthis system is special, you
know, and there's these rules,and all of us fall victim to the
rules sometimes that are justnonsensical. And so, you know,
(20:42):
we just try and leave it alittle better than what we found
it. Um, but But yeah, I reallymade me check myself when you
kind of are get that sense ofentitlement of like, you know,
I'm a colonel, I get this, orI'm a doctor, I get this, and
I'm, like, you know, here's thisthree star who couldn't even get
his retirement ceremony after30, I think 37 or 38 years of
service, you know, couldn't evenget what he wanted at his
(21:07):
retirement ceremony. So reallywas an entitlement check for me.
Um, and this is kind of kind ofjump in, jump in topics a little
bit, but I think, you know, oneof the things that, that we all
struggle with, is trying to findthat balance between being a
doctor and being a militaryofficer. But I think it's a
really natural fit to be thelink between the operational
(21:31):
world and the clinical world,you know, like, like, I think
those two things are naturallymarried, you know, if you really
care about your, about your guysthat are in the operational
world, that is, that is where,you know, being a physician
comes alive, because you get tocare for them, you don't just do
medicine, you actually get tocare for them. And so I really
encourage everybody to explorethose linkages, which I think
(21:52):
it's as er, Doc's, you know,like, if they're not sticking in
a chest tube, or starting acentral line, what am I doing, I
think there's a lot of value inbeing, you know, the person that
looks out for them, and thenalso does the operational
planning to make sure that thateverything is well prepared to
do the best we can for them inany circumstance.
(22:13):
So in this, this comes to, like,my next point is that, you know,
practicing medicine is, is justnot the, it doesn't always
equal, you know, caring forpeople. And I would say, you
know, really check yourselfsometimes and say is, am, am I
carrying medicine, I don't likewhere it's going, you know, I am
starting a company, because Idon't like where it's going, and
(22:34):
I want to do something to changeit. And I find, sometimes
medicine asks us to do thingsthat that, um, they don't feel
right, they don't feel right andcaring for the person, kind of
thing. And, and, you know, Ijust kind of encourage everyone
to, to examine, like, whythey're in medicine, why they're
in the military, what theirbeliefs are on taking care of
(22:56):
people and really, you know,really continue to challenge
where the system tries to takeus. Because I think we have to
own this as physicians, I think,you know, it's easy to get into
protocols and rules, andfinances and billing, and, you
know, all these things that justmove us further and further away
(23:16):
from compassionate care. And so,you know, I just have to put
that plug in, because it'sreally, it's really an important
part of my life right now oftrying to go back to actually
caring for people. And in doingthat, throughout your military
career, nothing, you know,nothing will serve you better
than developing people aroundyou, and then growing this very
(23:38):
deep network, because as yousaw, you know, throughout my
career, it was really was reallythe people that that make your
career, you know, the jobs comeand go, but, but the people
really matter and, and, youknow, I mean, I, I can go down
the list of attendees in thisactual lecture and tell you how,
probably, I think 80% of themhave touched my career in a way
(24:01):
that was so meaningful, and I'mso grateful for him. So please,
all of you, thank you for beingpart of my career, because it
would have been the same withoutyou. But that will continue post
career. I mean, I'm really, youknow, we're tapping into our
networks now for my currentcompany, and it's just fun, it's
fun to have these people youtrust that you can, like move on
to a different phase of yourlife with and be able to connect
(24:23):
and do great things with them.
So develop that now. I'm inthis, you know, this is just a
little little bit of me of like,you know, you're in the
military, you know, and but Ithink all of us like to be
unique, you know, we all like tolike to stand out in our own
ways. And so, I think it'sreally important to understand
yourself and understand whereyou fit in with the organization
(24:45):
and then what it is about youthat is unique, that truly makes
the organization better. And soin order to do that, you have to
understand the uniformity piecebe able to to be uniform when
you need to And then be able tobe unique when, when the
situation calls for a uniqueskill. And then I already
addressed this careers don'talways go in a linear manner,
(25:09):
you can go down, you can go up,you can go sideways, it's all
okay. It'll work itself out. Andthen probably I think this is my
last one is most of your growthis going to occur when you're
uncomfortable if there's a jobthat scares you, or if you think
you're going to go to a placewhere there's a lot of
uncertainty, you really growprofessionally, when you take on
(25:30):
the hard stuff and do the thingsthat are unfamiliar. But you
don't have a support networkwhen you do that. And like I
said, the people that are kindof attending this lecture, a lot
of them were mine. So and thenthe last, the last one is
retirements, really nice standuntil retirement, it's really
nice to wake up and go, I took abreath, and I got paid today. So
(25:51):
that was kind of my last takehome point is if anybody's
considering getting out.
Everybody has their own lifegoals, but it really is nice to
get paid to breathe. And nowthat was my whirlwind. And I
really want to take takequestions. So I guess grace,
your you've been kind ofmonitoring the chat board. So I
(26:13):
will be happy to feel questions.
I tried to kind of fly throughthat and and open it up and say,
you know, what are people'sthoughts?
Unknown (26:24):
Absolutely, ma'am. And thank you very much for that
presentation. I had several ofmy own personal questions, but I
guess those are probably bestaccomplished over a beer telling
a couple of those stories. Sothe first question comes from
major lion. How did you knowwhen it was time to get out? And
(26:45):
what really was your cue?
Missy Givens (26:48):
Um, so that's a great question. So as I
mentioned, you know, I hadplanned to go to the UAE and was
going to send stand up thetrauma center there love my team
love the job was over there TDYfor six months, my I was
supposed to get to your PCsorders with my daughter
accompanied, and in the militarycouldn't get out of its own way
(27:10):
and get my daughter, herpassport in time to start
school. And I had kind ofreached that point in my career
where I had sacrificed my familyover and over and over and over
again. And I and I finally justjust said, today's the day, I'm
going to say no. And, and alsoit was also my commitment was up
so and so you know, I can't Idon't know what I would have
(27:35):
done if I didn't have a youknow, I was blessed with a
commitment that didn't give mechoices. So I think it's much
harder for people that don'thave a commitment. Um, you know,
my commitment took me all theway up to my retirement. So I
think my choices were easier onbut I will say, you know, that
was a line in the sand momentfor me because it was just so
(27:56):
ridiculous that that I was kindof done, I think you, you get to
a point where you feel you'vedone, you've you've given and
you've served and you've donegood things. And I also started
to feel old I didn't as I taughtpeople, I couldn't relate as
well. And I felt like it wastime for me to go to pasture and
(28:16):
let somebody that was fresherand closer to the issues. Step
in so so it's kind of acombination of those two things
of feeling like it's time youknow, it was it was time for me
to to let more talented and moreyou know, folks that are closer
to the fight step into the someof the things I was doing.
Unknown (28:41):
Thank you for that humble opinion there, ma'am. The
next question comes from ColonelLee. And he specifically says
thank you for your perspectiveand an amazing career and
experiences. His question iswhat non medical experience or
training has unexpectedly servedyou well in your life?
Missy Givens (29:03):
Whoo, Max, leave throw it out in the fire with
some questions here. Um, wow.
Um, so I will say and this isit's actually in every thing I
ever write. You know, when yougo places you have to write your
leadership philosophy. And whenI was at uses, I had to write my
educational philosophy. And it'salways founded on the words of
my powerlifting coach incollege. Coach Paul Christopher,
(29:25):
he told me one day I was being alittle whiny, whiny punk, and
he's like, he's like, you know,Missy if you're not sore every
day for the rest of your lifeyou're not working hard enough.
And obviously that was aboutweightlifting and working a
little harder but I I reallytook that to heart in terms of
being you know, tackling the theintellectually hard things
(29:48):
emotionally hard things andbeing uncomfortable because
that's where growth occurs. Andyou know, I still credit him to
this day. I adore this manbecause he was a He was a
philosophy professor at WestPoint. And I never forgot that
quote. And so, so yeah, Ilearned it in the squat rack.
And anybody who knows me in my,in my weightlifting, you know,
(30:09):
life knows, the best lessons arelearned in the weight room.
Unknown (30:17):
Absolutely. And a comment here from major Kailyn,
who's currently deployed, thatthey, she appreciates your
amazing career and your rulebreaking has made a huge
difference. And she also wouldlike to mention that they are
very proud of the plane.
Missy Givens (30:35):
Yay. Yeah, you know, so I have to give a thank
you to a lot of people. So therewere several people in the Air
Force, actually, who built theprogram. Um, you know, so Alvin
was probably, you know, he's theco author on the papers I wrote
(30:55):
for that for that program. Andso I definitely have to give him
credit because they really builtthe metabolic program around the
plane. And so again, back to,you know, forming a team of
people that that are able to dothe things you're not able to
really, you know, prove to workwell, for me have an
understanding the joint world,you know, like so back to kind
(31:18):
of Max Lee's question, I thinkwhat non medical thing of the
more you use is really set setus up for this, of understanding
the other services and whattheir capabilities are and what
they're good at, versus whatyour service might not focus on
as much allowed me to tap intothe other services and and
capitalize on Oh, they know howto do this really well. So I'll
(31:40):
ask them to help me so we get abetter end product. And I think,
I think we're getting better atthat now. JTS, you know, has
really set the example for that.
And there's a lot of more innerservice collaboration. So that
that would be I guess, somethingthat's a little bit more
sophisticated than my weightroom example. But use this
really helps with that ofbuilding these, you know, cross
(32:02):
service awareness so that youcan tap into other resources.
Unknown (32:13):
MSC, so I just want to let you know, so Linda Lawrence
is on the call. Also, she'swatching with Andrea. So she
says Hi, as well and Marco,posted to everyone that you did
a fantastic job, but really notnot a no brainer for you to do
something like this for us. Sothere's a couple more questions
(32:33):
that we were gonna ask you. Solooking back at your illustrious
career and your timeline foreverything, is there anything
that you can think of that youcould have done or may have done
to help you transition to yourcivilian now job and career.
Missy Givens (32:52):
Um, while I'm still I'm actually still in the
phase of learning to be acivilian, I will, I've found,
you know, so it's just funny, Ijust actually got off the phone
with a bunch of venturecapitalists, um, I, I've, I know
nothing about the business andfinance world and this year has
been like this, you know, I feellike I'm a resident again,
(33:15):
trying to like learn a newlanguage, I would have paid a
lot more attention to like thehealth care business side of
things like I really wish Iwould have learned a lot a lot
more along the way because I'mtaking a crash course in it
right now. The The other thingis, is like being aware of how
(33:36):
culturally indoctrinated you arein the military, you do not
realize your language and yourmannerisms. And some of the
phrases you use are so militaryand then when you get in a non
military setting, it can bereally, some people find it
charming, other people find itoff putting, but I think you
(33:57):
have to be very self aware of,you know, for me, it's how
aggressive I come across or howlike, you know, structured when
I really like I just don't seemyself as that at all. But I
really had to add you know, someemotional intelligence on how
you come across to others havingthat military background and
just just the words we chooseand some of the lingo and stuff
(34:19):
like that so I think that'sthat's been the steepest
learning curve for me as acivilian
Unknown (34:29):
so that's really great advice for all of us thinking
about like, as far as thetransition and knowing you know,
that it's in the futuresomewhere whether it be you
know, one year for some of usfive years for the 10 year plan
first for some other people so
Missy Givens (34:44):
add something else to that though No, I would I
would say you know, embraceembrace your military culture
because I will say like in thislatest, you know, venture that
I'm doing with home for and helppeople love it, they love they
kind of find it Interesting init, and it, you forget how small
(35:04):
the military presence is in thegreater American, you know, in,
in the whole us like, like,we're a very small thing to the
big wide world out there. And soyou know, I'm certainly a lot I
used to always kind of be like,I'm not gonna wear my uniform,
you know, but but actually nowin this new world, it's like
people really like to hear aboutit, they like some of the
(35:26):
strengths we bring. So on theflip side, while you have to be
aware and allow for it, be proudof it and wear it, you know,
wear it well.
Unknown (35:38):
Thanks. And so you also want to know when to hold them
know when to fold him kind ofthing. And so, there's, this
year has been extremelystressful, you know, during the
COVID situation, and you know,and you have been out in the
civilian world on this andtransitioning to all of this,
um, knowing all of like stressmanagement techniques, other
(35:59):
than the physical portion of it,and bodybuilding and all that
stuff, is there anything elsethat you suggest just to keep
yourself focused, as anemergency medicine physician
through all of these changes,and military career
opportunities?
Missy Givens (36:13):
Um, I don't think I'm gonna say anything different
that isn't said in every forumon this is outsource what you
can and, and it's okay to not,you know, it's sometimes 50% is
okay. And I think givingyourself the grace, to be able
to say, I can't be good ateverything, I'm going to pick
(36:35):
what I want to be good at, I'mgoing to outsource what I can.
And then, you know, your, again,your support network, whatever
that looks like, um, keep aclose, keep a really close.
Unknown (36:49):
Eye. All right. And so there anybody else in the chat?
So either type your question inthe chat, or if you want to say
hi, to Missy, and then we have aquestion and answer box, just on
the bottom, just to let anybodyknew they want to ask a question
about here.
Ma'am, I do have a question. Youspecifically said several times,
(37:14):
how you have recovered fromdifficult points in your career.
You spoke about some grit andsome resiliency in there. What
would you say would be the mostimportant piece of that moving
forward? Because a lot of us nowfeel like we are in a one shot,
(37:36):
one failed kind of military. Sowhat would you say would be the
one thing or the one trait thatyou've really found to be able
to move forward out of out ofthose difficult circumstances?
Missy Givens (37:50):
Mmm, that's a really good question. And I you
know, there's, there's, there'sseveral, like very discreet
instances where, you know, Iwas, I was either in trouble or
I was told I was not as good asI thought I was. And I, you
know, so I'm going to call out.
Colonel John Lammy was my DCCswhen I was in, in Baghdad,
during the surge, and, you know,I'll never forget this, like I
(38:13):
was, you know, I've I wascrushing it there. I mean, we
were, we were doing 60 to 80traumas a day, you know, run in
that room, you're just, youknow, like, insanely working,
doing a great job, we had greatoutcomes. You know, I had all
the surgeons like, Stan, where Iwanted him to stand and like,
you know, like, things weregoing in my head amazing. And I
felt like and master that. AndI'll never forget this. When I
(38:37):
got my evaluation, I sat downwith Colonel amihan He gave me
you know, center mass in thearmy. That's like a, that's like
a you're good, but you're notgreat thing. And I was pissed.
Oh, my gosh, I was so like, Whatare you talking about? This is
like the pinnacle of likeemergency medicine, and I'm
crushing it, you know, and I wasso hurt by that. And he's like,
he's like, and he, he, I lovethis man. Because he was the
(39:01):
first person in my career whowas brave enough to tell me I
had room for improvement. And,you know, and I, he really said,
he's like, here's the thing, youdon't have to be all that all
the time. Um, and at the time,it was kind of hard to hear. But
he really was trying to get thepoint across of like, there's a
(39:23):
time to dial it up. And thenthere's a time to kind of, you
know, run it, let it just kindof run on its own and not be
always pushing, pushing,pushing, pushing, you know, now
obviously, this was a high tempoenvironment. So you know, it,
it's hard to turn it off, buthis advice was really well
taken. And, and I rememberedthat because sometimes as a
(39:46):
leader, it's very hard to lookyour, you know, subordinate in
the face and go this is what youneed to do better on and it's
often a very soft skill. It'snot like a Do your charts on
time or, you know, show up forwork on time, it's, uh, you have
this character trait that'sgetting in the way of you being
(40:07):
more of you. And I think as adevelopmental leader to be able
to identify that and help theperson see it and self actualize
it and move on to be a greaterversion of themselves, is a is a
huge challenge as a leader, soand I know I'm straying away
from the grit and resilience.
(40:27):
But it comes back to the pointof if you know, yourself, and
you know, where your strengthsand weaknesses are, and you
authentically know them, likeyou're not faking it, you know,
like, I mean, I probably spent agood 10 years of my career
faking it until I really didfigure out what my strengths and
weaknesses are. And I felt likeonce I personally got to the
(40:48):
point where where I embracedthose and capitalize on the
strengths, and then found goodpeople to carry my weaknesses,
that was kind of really when myresiliency blossomed, and I was
able to, like, take on thingsthat were scarier and more
challenging, because I knew if Ifailed, you know, I kind of
would know the context and howto grow from that. And so
(41:10):
failure became less scary. Myworry about what it would look
like on the outside became lessscary. And it really just came
down for me of knowing I'm doingthe right thing that's
authentically me. And if thisdoesn't work out, then I just
have to go be authentically mesomeplace else. So that's not
(41:30):
really grit resilience, but Ithink, in a way it was for me.
Unknown (41:35):
No, and I think you speak to a very good point,
ma'am. That we don'ttraditionally do very well as
physicians, which is learninghow to take a knee, right and
not being running constantly.
And it's even something that webrought up in the operator panel
that commander chick andCommander stone emphasized as
well have been able, I guess, torefill your tank, in some ways,
(41:56):
and not always having to push,push, push. And so I appreciate
that. Because I think a lot ofus and especially a lot of women
as well, we always feel the needto prove ourselves. And so we
don't necessarily step forwardwith the confidence that it's
okay to recharge our batteries.
(42:18):
And it's hard to pour from anempty cup.
Thank you for that. And so, Dr.
Gibbons along the same lines,especially in light of all the
things that have happened for inthe political realm, and
diversity inclusion has been abig push for the military this
past year. What sorts of thingsthat you had to deal with
(42:41):
through your military career,and now civilian career as a
female physician, in dealingwith different kinds of issues.
Missy Givens (42:52):
Um, I mean, you heard some of them and it and,
you know, I mean, a lot of themhave gone away, you know, I
mean, duct tape in my bellyduring during flight surgery
course, I still anymore. Um,but, you know, it was all of it,
it was like I was, you know, Iwas gonna get kicked out of a
course, if I chose to go Pom,but, um, you know, like, just
(43:13):
being denied jobs, because youmight get pregnant. You know,
though, I think some of thosethings we still have to advocate
for, I will say, when I was inthe soft community, there were a
couple of organizations that dida really great job of career
planning with their women. Andso they were, you know, these
were women that, uh, that a lotof money had been invested into
(43:34):
training them in very specificareas. And so it wasn't like,
they were just gonna throw themaside because they were
expensive. They're expensivetoys at this point. And so they
did a really good job withtrying to map out some career
planning for them of like, well,if you if you are going to have
a family, here's some good timesto do it. Here's a school to do
while you're doing that. Andit's not perfect, but at least
(43:57):
it's something that's at leastit's trying and there will never
be a right answer. That's rightfor everybody. But I think the
more we can acknowledge thatlife happens, and now let's
figure out how to make the mostof what is happening in life.
That is That doesn't haveanything to do with whether
you're a man or woman it has todo with you're a human being
that has life issues, and we asleaders owe it to those, you
(44:22):
know, around us to be able toadapt to life and make it fit
within our organization. I thinknow in a civilian world, what
I'm, you know, like there's so alot of things that bother me,
like, you know, for example,it's like as, as co founder of,
of this, you know, company,we're getting preferential look
from, you know, venturecapitalists because of having a
(44:45):
female, you know, founder, youknow, like, there's these things
and I'm like, No, well, itshould be because I'm a good
company knocks girl you know, sothere's still things that
frustrate me about positive,positive You know, pushing the
female agenda a little bit, Istill am a real believer in in
do a good job and select basedon that. So I'm all over the
(45:09):
place on this answer, I'm sorry,it um, it really is kind of I
still am always not aboutempower women, I'm gonna, like
empower people to be their bestself. And I'll stand by that,
Unknown (45:24):
ya know, at you know, personally, and I know, there's
lots of questions and I'm, youknow, interested in knowing more
especially about somebody withsuch a long career, and lots of
stuff that you've done. So we dohave one more question for me,
for you. This is from ananonymous, or somebody in the
group here, the people. So thankyou so much for speaking, ma'am.
(45:45):
How do you recommend findingthat balance, especially early
on in a career between walkingthe quote unquote, party line in
the Medical Corps, and makingwaves when something isn't
right? Additional? Do you haveany advice for the folks just
starting their careers forbalancing career advancement
with building and supportingyour family?
Missy Givens (46:08):
So I'll split those into two. So the first one
of like, knowing when to rockthe boat goes back to my like,
no, the money, no, theresources, know the rules, and
know them better than everybodyelse that you're going to go to
and try and push whatever agendait is that you're pushing.
Because Because within that liesthe beauty of what it is you're
(46:31):
trying to do, you're trying toshow them Yes, I understand all
the reasons that, you know, Ishouldn't do this, but here's
the reasons why. And there's thetipping of the scale. And, and
honestly, what will happen isyou're gonna have leaders who,
first of all don't have theenergy for it. Second of all
have other things that are moreimportant. And in you might have
(46:54):
to acknowledge that and go sitdown and shut up. But if it
truly is something that you feelneeds to be forward, sometimes
you have to come at it fromanother direction. And that's
not saying, you know, jump yourchain of command, I really did
try and inform my chain ofcommand when I was going another
direction. Because it doesn't,it doesn't work to burn bridges.
It really doesn't like don'tlight the house on fire and then
(47:15):
walk out, you know, really tryand come from several angles and
help get various perspectivesinvolved in that will that will
serve you well, when you'retrying to challenge the status
quo. Balance for family life,I'm probably a horrible advisor
on this. Yeah, it's, it's, it'shard, you know, and it is a it's
(47:41):
a different answer for everybodyon what's okay with you. I mean,
in life definitely was differentfor me, you know, once I became
a single parent, I did make sureI negotiated I write the
schedule, that's, that's thenumber one advice I can give you
is if you can be the owner ofthe schedule, and everybody
hates making schedules, it's alot of work. But I found if I
(48:04):
wrote the schedule, I you know,and I gave myself the crappiest
shifts, but I gave myself thecrappiest shifts so I could have
what I needed otherwise thatthat's a tactical skill that
worked very well for me. And Ikind of use that moving forward
of of make myself the boss so Icould decide when work was
(48:25):
important or when it wasn'timportant, and that that
requires taking on someadministrative burdens that
actually increase your workload,but give you more control of
your environment. If that makesany sense.
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