Wrestling with Forgiveness: UnitedHealth CEO and Luigi Mangione

This episode delves into the complex interplay between forgiveness, sin, and the healthcare system's injustices. We explore personal experiences that illustrate the challenges of forgiveness, compelling listeners to reflect on their own relationships with pain and moral responsibility.

• Exploring the concept of forgiveness within Christian faith 
• The challenge of differentiating sins and their human consequences 
• Personal anecdotes highlighting advocacy in healthcare 
• The emotional toll of navigating the healthcare system 
• Examining a tragic event involving a healthcare executive 
• The dichotomy of feeling forgiveness vs. experiencing pain 
• Engaging listeners through reflection on their own stories

Support the show

Pastor and Bible study leaders, EXPAND your online ministry.

My no-cost Not Guilty Newsletter diminishes guilt and fear.

Do your part to fuel the delivery of Christ’s forgiveness.

🙏Christ's love overcomes the guilt separating us from His boundless grace. Let's set aside our failings and take hold of His loving promises. 🙏

Guilt-free Faith serves up PEACE and POWER to Christian believers, pastors, and Bible study leaders.

🔥Videos, podcast, and Miracle Merch🔥 at GuiltFreeFaith.com.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
One of the cornerstones of Christian faith
is that Christ died for our sinspast, present and future, for
those that believe on him.
So one of the keys to Christ'spurpose was forgiveness, and
when we talk about Christ as theLamb of God, essentially Christ

(00:22):
is sacrificed to cover all ofthese sins that we ourselves
can't get rid of, can't chargeoff or blame on somebody else or
pay off.
If you believe in sin, if youbelieve that there are evil
things that people do, whetherit's by their own agency,

(00:47):
whether they can even control it, which I'm not sure they can
that's another whole video.
But the idea is that we needforgiveness and thankfully we
don't have to rely on otherpeople for forgiveness.
If our eternal fate rested onwhether someone else would
forgive us, wow, we really havea problem there, because

(01:12):
oftentimes we're not forgiven orit's not done fully, or we're
on the other side of theequation.
Are there people you've notforgiven?
Put it in the comments.
Who haven't you forgiven?
Why haven't you forgiven them?
I want to welcome you toGuilt-Free Faith.
My name is Jimmy James Johnson.

(01:34):
Guilt does not live here.
You're at the wrong place.
Most of us would agree thatshoplifting isn't as bad as
murder.
Right, a parking violationisn't as bad as an armed robbery
.
We have some kind of basicsocial contract and

(01:55):
understanding that some thingsare just more harmful than
others.
So we want to deter them, wewant to punish more severely for
them.
And the problem with that, as aChristian, is that all sins
are—this is what the Bible says,this is not what Jimmy's

(02:16):
saying—all sins are equal in theeyes of the Lord.
That's a real mind-blower.
How could that even be?
How could God look uponsomething as minor as littering

(02:36):
or loitering and compare that toessay or some type of vicious
attack or indeed a horriblewhite-collar crime, which those
are often given a pass, which iswhy we're talking about it?
So as Christians, we're facedwith this thing of looking at

(02:57):
okay, here's this healthcareinsurance company CEO.
If he is in fact, this is justall alleged.
Okay, I don't know.
I haven't seen the records,I've not deposed this guy, I
haven't followed his career.
I have no idea.
I'm just going by what'salleged his career.

(03:18):
I have no idea.
I'm just going by what'salleged and what I've personally
seen and experienced.
Now in the world's eyes, one ofthe surprising things about this
is the quote victim of thiscase.
The victim isn't reallygarnering a lot of support or
sympathy.

(03:38):
Ever since this happened,there's been an outcry amongst
virtually everybody.
I know certainly all the socialmedia forums, many YouTube
videos, even mainstream newsoutlets have been reporting like
wow, there's really agroundswell of tolerance,

(04:02):
understanding, compassion forthe so-called offender or
shooter in this case.
I saw something on the news theother day talking about where
this Luigi gentleman isimprisoned and even the
prisoners are supporting him.
Even the prisoners are like hey, free Luigi, it's not right

(04:25):
that he's in here.
So even those people in themost marginalized edges of
society are coming to the aid,in a sense, of the rights and
the circumstances around howthis gentleman is being charged.

(04:46):
And, as I recall, he is beingcharged now with first-degree
murder in addition to othercharges.
So that's as serious as you canget.
Now, again, as a normal everydayperson who has been screwed
over by insurance companies, isit really a surprise?

(05:11):
Tremendously saddened by thepassing of this guy who
ostensibly is chief of anotherone of these organizations that
apparently, or allegedly, isresponsible for a lot of denials

(05:32):
of care, up to one in three, toput that in perspective, just
think all these people that aregoing to the doctor.
The doctor is recommending care, they're prescribing something,
and the insurance company it'snot like.
They're occasionally like, ohno, that's experimental.

(05:55):
Occasionally like, oh no,that's experimental, that's kind
of off the books, that'spseudoscience.
No, these are treatments andprescriptions prescribed by
their own colleagues in theAmerican Medical Association.
Here are the doctors.
They're part of the healthcaresystem and certainly there are

(06:19):
plenty of physicians thatconsult for the insurance
companies.
Despite this linkage betweenmedical doctors and the health
insurance that's supposed to payfor them and the treatments
they prescribe.
We even have a lot of doctorssaying, man, yeah, I can't

(06:40):
always give my patients whatthey need.
Yeah, I am not able to put theprescriptions in the hands of
people that need it.
I'm the one that's trained topractice medicine.
I'm the one that decides whatthe proper treatment is.
As long as the patient agreeswith that, that person should be

(07:03):
able to go and avail themselvesof that treatment and their
health insurance should coverwhatever portion that is.
Maybe there's also a co-pay,maybe there's.
That's one of the problems.
Right, there's a millionloopholes and scenarios and it's
nuts, right, which is what manypeople feel, including myself,

(07:23):
like part of the plan.
Right, you can't navigate it.
Right, it's like you need awhole nother degree just to try
to call all these people, sortthrough all these things, fax
them, email them, all that stuff.
For me, the only reason why I'malive and I've gotten the
treatment that I've received isnot because I have a wonderful

(07:46):
insurance company, it's notbecause I'm sitting at the top
of the socioeconomic heap, no,it's not that.
It's because I had loved ones,particularly my mom.
Mom love you Particularly, mommom, mom, mom, mom, love you,

(08:15):
love you.
Okay, my mom has spentcountless hours and I'm not
exaggerating Over the course ofmy lifetime.
She's easily spent a thousandhours or more.
That's probably evenconservative.
There's been times in my lifewhere taking care of me in terms

(08:38):
of being my advocate andrepresenting me vis-a-vis these
insurance companies that I'mpaying to protect me and provide
for me, without her advocacy,like I would just be a goner.
See, like I would just be agoner.

(09:00):
She's the one that really tookthe time to fight these fights
and she's the one who has filledme in along the way on a lot of
the details.
And let me tell you, it isshady, it's slimy, it's shit Any
adjective that you want toattach to the types of hoops,
the types of underhanded garbagethat my mom and I have run into

(09:25):
trying to get the right medicalcare.
It's just astonishing.
Only if you've been through itwould you fully appreciate how
severe the situation is.
Living by the world's rules, alot of people feel like, hey,
live by the sword, die by thesword.
Right, you're an executive.

(09:46):
You're making decisions thatimpact people's lives.
You're causing suffering,perhaps even death.
You're profiting from this.
You're making millions andmillions and millions.
You're getting millions inbonuses.
Right, you're literally beingpaid to kill people.
That's how a lot of people lookat this.

(10:07):
I personally find it hard todisagree with that.
Maybe I'm a little emotional.
Maybe I'm traumatized from mypast experiences.
Maybe I'm a little emotional.
Maybe I'm traumatized from mypast experiences.
All of that, I'm sure, is true.
But just looking at itfactually and reading about it,
learning about other people'scases, talking to other

(10:33):
advocates like my mom, I don'tknow what else to call this type
of flagrant disregard for humanlife.
I don't know what else to callit, and I have at least a decent
vocabulary, but that's what itis.
That's horrible.
As somebody that's had healthissues pretty much since when I

(10:54):
was a kid, that's had healthissues pretty much since when I
was a kid.
Okay, so I've been in thissystem.
I know more about it than Iwould like to.
Can you relate to me anyone?
All right, tell me in thecomments, so I feel like I'm not
alone.
So this guy he's mad, ostensiblybecause of insurance
mistreatment, takes matters intohis own hands and offs this

(11:19):
executive.
So, as a Christian, what's ourreaction to the offing of this
UnitedHealthcare CEO?
We know how we may feel aboutit.
We know what the facts may showabout this person's tenure and
their behavior.
We know about their bankaccount.
How are we supposed to feelabout what's been done to them?

(11:43):
Okay, and then also, how are wesupposed to feel about the
person that is accused of doingit?
As a Christian, we're supposedto forgive everybody.
Hey, have you been in asituation with a health
insurance company that was sodamaging, that was so emotional,

(12:03):
that was so tragic, that you'rehaving a hell of a time
forgiving this guy for beingpart of that system?
Are you pissed off?
Are you in pain?
Are you missing out on care youneed?
Hey, let people know in thecomments, because not everybody

(12:26):
knows If you've been blessed andyou've been healthy and you
haven't been put through thehealth insurance ringer, you may
not know how serious of aproblem this is.
You may not realize that thisis not exaggerated.
It's not about trying to curbmedical fraud.
That, yeah, we deny all thesepeople because they're trying to

(12:50):
scam us.
No, no, no.