“Curl Pattern Chart Myths: What Stylists Want You to Know”

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:03):
Welcome back to another episode of Hair What I'm
Saying.
This is where we have realconversations about hair,
culture, and identity, a spacefor healing and understanding.
Today we're talking about thecurl pattern chart.
Yes, that chart you've seen allover social media and how it's
been misleading people in thecurl community.
To help me break it down, I'mjoined by Minnie of Shagnor
Salon.

(00:24):
This is actually her third timeon the show, and every time she
comes, she brings her expertise,honesty, and real world
experience.
Minnie works with all textures,which makes her the perfect
person to help unpack why thechart isn't what we've been led
to believe.
Welcome to the Hair What I'mStand podcast.
I'm your host, Kenitra Stewart.
Today we have Minnie of ShagNoir Salon ATX joining us again,

(00:45):
again, and again for a thirdtime.
Welcome to the show, Minnie.
How are you?

SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Thank you.
I'm wonderful.

SPEAKER_03 (00:53):
Good.
I'm having a good day so far.
So with you.
Oh, this is so sweet.
I thought we haven't seen eachother since when?

unknown (01:00):
I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01):
The last time we done the podcast?
That was a year ago.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05):
To talk about.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06):
We sure do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08):
That was a year ago.
Was it?
Yes, it was.
It was September.
I remember the.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
I'm gonna say it was pretty outside.
I'm like, it was.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Yeah, it was September.
Yeah.
It's October, but it's hot.
What the heck is going on withTexas?
It's hot if you're just sittingout there.
Yeah.
It's October.

SPEAKER_02 (01:24):
It's so normal.
I just told my son, I was like,it's probably gonna get cold
around December.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Yeah.
That is Texas, though.
That is the vibe for Texas.
Louisiana liked that too, whereI'm from.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
But coming from Virginia to Texas, I'm like
Louisiana, y'all stay cold allthe way to like February.
February, March.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41):
Yeah.
It's all good though.
I mean, we're here.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45):
If you had just get get just go into some AC, that's
all I can tell you.
I mean.

SPEAKER_02 (01:50):
I keep I keep a jacket and then a crop top on
just to fluctuate in between thehot flashes, AC, and outside.

SPEAKER_03 (01:58):
No, for real.

SPEAKER_02 (01:58):
For real.

SPEAKER_03 (01:59):
What you been up to?

SPEAKER_02 (02:01):
I cooked last night.

SPEAKER_03 (02:02):
What you cooked?

SPEAKER_02 (02:03):
I had my let me tell you what happened.
Okay, so I had my cousin.

SPEAKER_03 (02:06):
Not what you cook, but let me tell you what
happened.

SPEAKER_02 (02:09):
So I wanted to get, I went to Radiant.
Shout out to Radiant Butcher.
Or Radius.
Radius.
Messed up the name.
Radius Butcher on 7th Street.
So it was salt and time.
I went and got, I wanted to getshort ribs, but they didn't have
them.
Of course, the night the nightI'm having my cousins over.
Right.
And I got Chuck and I overcookedit.

SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
Girl, shut up.
Tough.

SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
So I made polenta and then I braised the
vegetables and everything else.
But the meat I threw out to thedogs.

SPEAKER_03 (02:37):
It was tough, wasn't it?
The meat was tough.

SPEAKER_02 (02:40):
My cousin was like, you should have cooked this all
day.
I'm like, it was different.
Oh my God.
I did the same recipe as I didwith the short ribs, but the
short ribs cook in like threehours.
These I should have cooked fordays.
This chakros.

SPEAKER_03 (02:52):
Oh my.
But I don't cook often, so youcooked it too fast.
It's alright.
It's okay.
At an expensive.

SPEAKER_02 (02:59):
But that's what I've been up to, just my dogs.
And then, of course, the salonalways sorting outing of my
salon.

SPEAKER_03 (03:09):
It's never ending.
Do you believe it's because ofhow everything is evolving?
Like with, you know, justcertain it's a lot of things are
involved evolving to the pointwhere I can't even pinpoint it
to anything.

SPEAKER_02 (03:22):
Like it's like an aspect of it, right?
Because you still want to uhhonor and hold space for those
who have been overworked andundervalued.
But but you still have tounderstand that it's a business,
right?
And and I I think that is anelement of it, but there's so

(03:44):
many, there's so many aspects.

SPEAKER_03 (03:46):
It sure is.
And they are never in.

SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
Right.
Because of course, to me, likemy stylus and how content they
are in in the environment that Icreate is is very high on the
scale for me.
Like that's one of the toppriorities for me.
Um, but it's like, what does itlook like?
What does it look like like fora collective?
What does it look like for oneperson?
And do you you can't cater toone person, right?
So yeah, and evolving out ofthat like heavy workspace, but

(04:11):
also understanding that it doestake commitment and discipline.

SPEAKER_03 (04:16):
It sure does.
Well, we we need to create anepisode about that in the
future.
We will.
We got to get that on theschedule.
A sap Rocky.
That's how the young folks sayit.

SPEAKER_02 (04:28):
Yeah.
Cause you know, now we'relooking at like this generation
to our parents, and you're like,it is completely different
worlds on how to produce and howto create.

SPEAKER_03 (04:38):
And us millennials, we're like stuck in the middle.
Like, yep.
Which way do I go?
Which way do I go?

SPEAKER_02 (04:44):
Do I go to the internet influencing, or do I go
pick up a hammer?

SPEAKER_03 (04:50):
A machete, you know?
So no for real.
It's a lot.
Us millennials, we I feel likewe have it the toughest.
Because of what you mentioned.
You know, we have the youngergeneration and we have kids in
that generation, and then wehave parents in that generation,
and I don't know what was goingon in that generation.

SPEAKER_02 (05:11):
Well, you know, a lot.

SPEAKER_03 (05:13):
We know what was going on, but we're gonna keep
it, you know, we ain't gonnajust keep it kosher today.
Right.
And so then we just kind ofstuck in the middle.
Yeah, and that's why I don'twant to be biased, but I feel
like we're the toughestgeneration because we're stuck,
we're like the middle child.
Like a rock out of our place.

SPEAKER_01 (05:29):
Mm-hmm.
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (05:30):
Because what I what I find that I talk about a lot
with the people is you caneither get on, which I heard on
the news the other day, whichand this is the first time I've
actually heard this.
You're make you're in betweenmaking that decision of like, do
I just go full-fledged digital?
Now I gotta make a decision whatI want to do with this digital.

SPEAKER_03 (05:47):
And that's why we're stuck in the middle, because
we've had the best of bothworlds.

SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
Right.
Or do I, you know, go start abusiness?
Do I get rid of my job?
Or do I go apply for anotherjob?
Do I work harder?
Do I go get an education to goget the job I always wanted?
Or do I just go show my toes onOnlyFans?
I mean, these are the decisionspeople are having to make now.

(06:11):
You know what I'm saying?
That was amazing.
That's the reality.

SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
Seriously, that is the reality.

SPEAKER_02 (06:18):
And then we're like, no, but I've got integrity, I've
got grit.
I went to school, I went tocollege, I I paid for the
classes, the$1,200 every time Iwanted to learn something new.
So we want to, you know, butwe're seeing the the polarity in
how people are making a living.

SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
And yeah.
Back when we were coming out ofhigh school, it was like, you
know, we're either gonna go tocollege, we're gonna join the
military, or we're gonna go tosome vocational school.
Are you gonna party?
Or you're gonna party.
Whatever you're gonna do.
But it was very simple.
You only had a few littlechoices.
Choices.

SPEAKER_02 (06:55):
So to put this in perspective with the like
futurism of like wheretechnology has taken us, I was
asking my son um when we were atdinner one night, I was like,
and to my ex, I wanted my ex tosee the difference.
And I didn't know thedifference.
I just w I wanted to bring itout and make it real, right?
So I asked my son, I was like, Itold Casey, I was like, I'm

(07:17):
going to ask him if he thinksgetting out of high school and
making 20 grand is difficult.
Because I don't know.
I don't know what he's gonnasay.
I don't know what I don't knowwhat these kids think.
Oh, right.
And he said, No.
Super easy.
And I said, So tell me why.
What what because to us, even tothe millennials, if 20 grand in
a month is that's a stretch.

(07:38):
You're hustling, you're figuringit out.
Like you figured it out.

SPEAKER_00 (07:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (07:41):
Because that's a lot of money.

SPEAKER_00 (07:42):
Right.
Um and he was like What was hiswhy?

SPEAKER_02 (07:49):
You could do e-commerce a lot.
I can't re I remember thee-commerce, I remember
influencing, but scamming?
Like that's a real job to them.

SPEAKER_03 (08:00):
Where I was like, please.

SPEAKER_02 (08:02):
Yeah, I was like, please understand for me as your
mother, you jump into that role.
I will not be in the courtroomwith you.

SPEAKER_03 (08:07):
That I will be in the past.

SPEAKER_02 (08:10):
And it was it was like, well, you that's not where
I'm at, Mom.

SPEAKER_03 (08:13):
Yeah, but you asked me.
I'm just stealing.

SPEAKER_02 (08:16):
I was like, and then he got to show me like on
YouTube where you can go and buythe equipment to scam.
They have they teach you.
On YouTube, these people shouldbe banned.
Where in our minds, you know,like the boomers' minds, it's
only in Nigeria.
In our minds, we know people doit.
We're probably relating more tolike in person, people robbing

(08:40):
people and setting up dates andthings like that, or scamming
over the phone, ourgrandmothers.
But young people are able to dothis as a profession.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (08:49):
They think it's a profession.
I can't tell y'all.
I mean, I done cussed that.
Then told them to go to Jesusplenty of times.
Right.
Girl.
Yeah, we got off on the tangent.
But that was good.
That could have been a wholeepisode.
That was good.
That was so organic, and it justflowed.
Right?

unknown (09:06):
I'm here with that.

SPEAKER_03 (09:08):
All right.
Let's get started officially.
So, can you tell us a little bitabout your journey as a stylist
and how you've worked with allhair textures?

SPEAKER_02 (09:18):
Hmm.
Okay, yeah.
So I grew up in Flukerville.
So the schools that I grew up inwere super mixed, and it was a
small town outside of Austin.
So I I feel like I went toschool with everybody and I
always had an attraction tohair, period.
Like I just wanted to seepeople's hair.
Um, and then as I started um inhair school, my hair school was

(09:40):
different than what I perceivedit was going to be.
So it was predominantly white.
So then I was like, okay, well,I guess I'm learning.
What was your perception?
I thought it was I thought I wasgonna go to Central Texas Beauty
College or Vogue, which was morelike the population was more
black.

SPEAKER_03 (09:59):
Okay.
Gotcha.
In Austin.

SPEAKER_02 (10:01):
But I ended up flipping the script because of
finances and going to becausethey offer student aid,
financial aid.

SPEAKER_03 (10:07):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (10:09):
So I was like, okay, well, this is different.
But it was uh Bidal SassoonConnection Cutting School, so
that piqued my interest too.
So I was like, I was alwaysobsessed with Bidal Sassoon.
Um so once I was there in thatspace, I was like, oh, now I can
play with anybody's hair.

(10:30):
Yeah.
So that became my experience.
And then when I got out, I wentand worked at Urban Betty, and I
was like, okay, well, I'll do anapprenticeship.
I already did an apprenticeshipat Bling Hair Salon, which was a
black salon in Pflugerville at19.
So I was like, well, I'll do anapprenticeship here, work here
in Austin, where I live now, andwe'll go from there.
And then I've kind of justbrought in every texture,

(10:53):
everybody that I can think ofinto my space.

SPEAKER_03 (10:56):
So are you grateful for being able to go to a school
that allowed you to, you know,work with, I guess you could
say, looser, straighter texturesopposed to one that was
predominantly well, it dependson when what when you went,
because back then we wereprobably getting relaxers.

SPEAKER_02 (11:11):
Yeah.
And I don't know that itmattered to me because I like at
the end of the day, I justwanted my education.
And to me, it was like I justsomebody paid for it.

SPEAKER_01 (11:19):
Right?

SPEAKER_02 (11:19):
Ultimately I ended up paying for it.
But at the time, somebody wassaying yes to the, you know, to
me, and a lot of the otherschools were not allowing
financial aid.
So my teachers, my teachers,some of my teachers there were
black.
So I there was some familiarity.
Some of the students were, but Idon't know that it was a it
beared a lot of weight.

(11:39):
It was just really anopportunity to just learn.
Cause I I knew I had alreadydone the Shampoo Tech
apprenticeship with AprilKearney at Bling Salon.
So it was just like I was justfunneling myself into more
spaces.

SPEAKER_03 (11:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 (11:56):
Mm-hmm.
I gotcha.
Yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (11:58):
And then for me to want to, like now it's like I
can create the space that Iwant.

SPEAKER_03 (12:02):
Yes, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (12:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (12:04):
That's what it has always been for me, too.
Like just wanted to finally youyou see these things from these
different salons and what theydo and how they do it.
You might take something fromhow they, however that, you
know, they choose to operate.
You might bring it on into yourspace, or you you just see it
and be like, I know I can dosomething better with that.
You know, whatever.
Or something different.

SPEAKER_02 (12:23):
Yeah, just put a little twist on it.
Because even just talking aboutthat, I was like, oh shit, I
feel like I'm I was kind ofmaking it like school.
I loved school growing up inschool.
I mean, I went to school witheverybody, all kind of, I mean,
after I think the Bosnia war,Bosnian War.

SPEAKER_03 (12:39):
Oh yeah.
Uh-huh.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (12:41):
Students from like Hersynia, Bosnia.
And I was always so fascinatedby like this spectrum of human
beings.
Lebanese people next door,Mexican family down the street.
They could not keep me out oftheir houses.

SPEAKER_03 (12:54):
So with my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 (12:55):
Salon space.

SPEAKER_03 (12:56):
That's what you created.
That's that's what you've alwaysaimed to create, too.
Like just very like universal,you know, like a big unity.

SPEAKER_02 (13:07):
One day I'll be a polygl.

SPEAKER_03 (13:11):
What's your philosophy when it comes to
educating clients about theirhair?

SPEAKER_02 (13:17):
Ooh, so my thing is that I always want them to feel
empowered, right?
I want them to want to come tome.
I want them to feel like I don'tneed many to tell me what my you
know what I mean?
Like she's educated me so I feelempowered here, here when I'm at
this uh stand, if this is goingon in my life, then she's

(13:39):
already told me this is what Ican, you know, start working on
or look forward to or doresearch on, right?
That they don't necessarily needme.

SPEAKER_03 (13:47):
They don't I mean, excuse me, not that they don't,
but they do.
Right.
I do wonder if the education andeverything that we do offer is
being consumed.
Uh sometimes I I be like, isthis a space to just vent?
In the chair?
Yeah.
Is it is it a space to ventabout all the obstacles and all

(14:10):
of the trials and tribulationsthat you have with your hair, or
do you really want a solution?
Because what I've experienced,I'm just being honest.

SPEAKER_02 (14:20):
Good question.
Because Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (14:25):
I just I you know it gets it it's like I want your
goals more than you do.
I want you have your hair goalgoals more than you do.
And at this point, I'm gettingfrustrated because I want to see
you achieve your hair goals.
But every time you come back,it's like a hard reset.
It ain't powering your phoneoff, giving it a chance to

(14:48):
recollect.
It's like holding the powerbutton, holding the side sound
button.
It's a hard reset.
Or I gotta go into my generalsettings and do reset all
network.

SPEAKER_02 (14:58):
See, so so to me, when you get past that annoyance
point, it's kind of like whatthey're saying about community.
Without with community becomesannoyance, right?
Right?
You have to deal with theannoyance part.
That's why the price the price.
Because I mean not all thatprices.

(15:21):
When you think about therapists,the word therapist would why
people say, that's why you're ayou're such a therapist.
Yes, because they do, they wantthat hair sister, they want that
hair brother, they want thathair fairy god, whatever, that
they can come talk to and youjust tell them what to do.
We see it in every otherindustry as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.

(15:41):
Weight loss.
I mean, can you imagine?
Yeah.
Nutritionists probably feel thisway too.
Like you just want somebody tocome talk to about the Snickers.
But you don't want to put themdown at the stickers.
And that's why we try to- Ohday.

SPEAKER_03 (15:58):
That's why you can't just do hair.
I mean, you can.
I mean, you can, but if they arelooking for something more than
you just doing your hair, you'renot gonna retain clientele.
And I don't mind it, you know,being their therapist.
Sometimes it helps me, you know,figure out.
I remember one client, we couldnot understand why she could not
retain length for nothing.

SPEAKER_01 (16:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:20):
Like it just stayed at one length.
And I said, I know you're notopen to a lot of heat.
I said, but I do believe if westretched your hair a little
bit, I said, because you havethe ends that will jump back in.
Yeah.
And I'm not getting all of them.
And I do feel strongly in myheart that's why you're not
retaining length.
Because, you know, some peopleonly want you to blow dry and

(16:42):
cut.
They don't want you to platterand flat.
Yeah.
And I told her, I was like, wedon't have to bounce straight,
you know, still press it, justlet me smoothen it out.

SPEAKER_00 (16:51):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (16:52):
You know?
And ever since but but they haveto be open to receiving it.
They have to be open to allowingyou to do it.
Right.
But she did, and then shestarted retaining length, you
know.
But so in that situation, it'slike, I even figured out
something, you know, that couldpotentially work for anyone who
has that specific hair texture,you know.
But for me, I guess theannoyance comes from offering a

(17:15):
solution.
You challenging the solution.

SPEAKER_02 (17:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (17:19):
Or accepting the solution and don't follow
through.
That's when I get annoyed.
Because then it's like, it'sokay if you don't come back
because obviously you don'tagree with the solution or
whatever the case may be,whatever reason you don't come
back.
But when you keep coming backand I keep repeating myself like
a broken record.

SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Well, you just identifying that you're now not
the problem.

SPEAKER_03 (17:40):
Oh, I well, I definitely figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 (17:43):
You're like, well, let's just make it clear that
I'm not the problem.

SPEAKER_03 (17:46):
Yeah.
And when the price goes up, butyou don't see the results, I'm
definitely still am not theproblem.
You know.

SPEAKER_02 (17:56):
I don't know that I'm I'd I'd struggle with like
getting annoyed in that space.
Cause it's just kind of worthit.
I've made it worth it.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So when people do saytherapists, I think they a lot
of times when I hear peoplerefer to, and that's why people
say y'all are therapists, andI'm like, it's not I I don't

(18:16):
take it as an insult.
No, I don't either.
Yeah, I don't I'm not gonna takethat as an insult because I've
chosen.
Maybe if I was doing this for 45bucks, huge insult.
Not getting paid enough for thedouble whammy.
You know what I mean?
You said huge insult.
No, it is.
But as I'm cutting and I'mtelling you I'm quiet during the

(18:40):
space and you choose to blah,blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:43):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (18:44):
I think naturally who I am.
I'm taking that in and I'm I'mdoing inventory on it because
I've been in therapy for a longtime.
I'm not in it right now.

SPEAKER_01 (18:54):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
Um, and then I've also been okay with the fact
that I've kind of taught myclients how I give it to you is
how I give it to you.
I'm never trying to be mean, butthis is just who I am.
So if I give you an honestresponse, if you're looking for
an honest response, you know,yeah, I'll create space for it
to get real.
So I don't mind.
Once you pay, and I can say whatI can say, and it's still

(19:19):
respect and love.

SPEAKER_03 (19:21):
We we both Yeah, and if you don't like it, you know,
it's come back.
We we can both win if youreceive it though, because it's
the truth.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (19:26):
I think that's why I don't get annoyed.

SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
I think I just get annoyed mainly with what do I
get You a vibe.
You don't get annoyed.

SPEAKER_03 (19:37):
You a vibe, whatever.

SPEAKER_02 (19:39):
Yeah, and actually.
I think I get annoyed with theindustry itself more than I do.

SPEAKER_03 (19:42):
Than opposed to the client.

SPEAKER_02 (19:44):
Yeah, because at this point now, the clients, you
can annoy me, but you I'mcutting you off.

SPEAKER_03 (19:49):
Yeah, that's true.
You have that free will.
Yeah.
You know, so that's true too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
All right, cool.
Let's move on.

SPEAKER_01 (19:59):
And done.

SPEAKER_03 (20:01):
Okay, so when did you first notice the curl
pattern chart impacting clients?
I would say I probably notice itheavily right before the
pandemic.

SPEAKER_00 (20:16):
Right before the pandemic.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (20:18):
With that I can I can I'm off on time sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 (20:22):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (20:23):
Um like I can't say ten years ago.

SPEAKER_03 (20:26):
I don't know that it was I believe everyone's answer
is gonna be different.
It just depends on what you werepaying for.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
Uh I think I noticed Yeah, the pandemic.
Right before the pandemic, thepeople would be like, the four C
curl, the chart, everywhere.
And it I think at first it wasuh I thought it was really cool.
I liked I liked what I wassaying.

SPEAKER_03 (20:51):
I did too.

SPEAKER_02 (20:52):
And then I started being like, ah shit.
They did it again.
They didn't got they done.
Scammed us again.

SPEAKER_00 (21:03):
I was cooked.
I was done.
I'm sick of being scammed.

SPEAKER_02 (21:11):
But you know, like when I sit back and I think
about it, couple puffs, youknow, you're like, ah,
capitalism.
That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 (21:21):
That's all it was.

SPEAKER_02 (21:22):
Yeah, like who gives a shit?
Everybody has like fourdifferent curl patterns on their
head, period.
From one hand.
Yeah, my straightest.
I mean, I think I learned thismaybe 12 years ago, 10 years
ago.
Looking and paying attention asI'm combing to the back of my
client's hair, super straightfrom the front to the back from
the caucus of the mountains.

(21:44):
The most caucus of themountains, okay?
And there's curls like mine inthe back, right below here.
And it's commonly where I findthem.

SPEAKER_03 (21:52):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (21:52):
If there's just a few.
So it's like kinky babies.

SPEAKER_03 (21:57):
Yeah.
So yeah.
Yep.
So how would you say um how hasit misled the community, the
curl community?

SPEAKER_02 (22:08):
I don't know that it was their intention, but it
maybe.

SPEAKER_03 (22:11):
I don't believe it was either.
I believe they just wanted avisual reference to make it
easier.

SPEAKER_02 (22:19):
And then you, you know, you always got those that
are like, hmm, let's make itsomething.
And that's a little bit moredevious and nefarious.

SPEAKER_03 (22:26):
Exactly.
When they saw how people jumpedon it.

SPEAKER_02 (22:28):
Right.
So once people started beinglike zeroing in on this is the
only way it's gotta be.
And when people get so likeradicalized about it, well, I
can't use this.
And then I found out I shouldn'tbe using this, and I threw all
this away because I was used,this is for the two-way, and
it's like, oh, y'all, it's morescience than it is your curl
pattern, like the science ofwhat you're using, the science
of the water you're using.

SPEAKER_03 (22:49):
Everything.
And that's why the curl patternchart to me is ineffective.
Because it doesn't address noneof theirs.

SPEAKER_02 (22:56):
No.
No.
It still doesn't.
Like why I'm wondering why,like.

unknown (23:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:02):
It still don't.
I do feel as though since thereis so much controversy around
it, the creator should have beenmore um, I don't know, just been
more upfront about what it'sfor.
If whatever, like, what was yourgoal?
What was your vision?
Who created it?
Andre Walker.

SPEAKER_00 (23:23):
I don't really this this is all I know him by.
Wait a minute.
Was he Oprah Wimfries?
Girl, don't dress her.
Do we need to look it up?
Let me look it up.

SPEAKER_02 (23:36):
Let's see, let's see.
Cause cause, you know, I wouldhave questions.
Cause my first question in myhead was, was it made by a um
someone from the Caucus Mountainregions?

SPEAKER_03 (23:48):
No.
Well, I mean he made it is OprahWinfrey's hairstylist.
I thought I had that correct.
Um, I believe he could be a mi agood mix of sorry.

SPEAKER_00 (24:04):
Oops, you gotta cut that out.

SPEAKER_03 (24:08):
I am not cutting that out.
I'm not.
People say crazier things onthese podcasts.
We are just real.

SPEAKER_00 (24:17):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (24:19):
Okay.
I'm remembering.
Did it got the got theinjections?
Did it go to injections?
I'm trying to reach back in theyears.
I don't know.
Who am I thinking of?

SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
This is him though.

SPEAKER_00 (24:33):
And he has beautiful curls.

SPEAKER_02 (24:38):
I don't know if y'all No, no, no.
I'm thinking of a differentperson.
Okay.
Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_03 (24:42):
But yeah, I thought it was Oprah Winfrey's
hairstylist for sure.
But yeah, so it is.

unknown (24:49):
What?

SPEAKER_02 (24:50):
That is Oprah Winfrey's hair dresser.

SPEAKER_03 (24:52):
Andre Walker.
I thought he was Oprah Winfrey'shairstylist.

SPEAKER_02 (24:55):
Okay.
So I mean, it's giving, it'sgiving Chaz Wyn.

SPEAKER_03 (25:09):
Chaz Win?
Yes.
Who is that?

SPEAKER_02 (25:11):
Remember when products?
That then there was losses.

SPEAKER_03 (25:14):
W E-N.
W-E-N.
I don't re I don't I don't havemuch education on that product
at all.
I never really used it.

SPEAKER_02 (25:22):
It's giving like celebrity hairstylists.
Now I've created this thing thatI can market and sell to
everyone, right?

SPEAKER_03 (25:29):
But you're not really you don't have a specific
solution.

SPEAKER_02 (25:33):
No, but it's something it's it look at
genius.

SPEAKER_03 (25:36):
It worked.

SPEAKER_02 (25:38):
If you're dialed into capitalism and I need to
make money uh and this is howYeah, it worked.

SPEAKER_00 (25:44):
Well, hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (25:50):
I mean, I just wish people weren't so serious about
it and weren't so concerned andlike these are the products I
have to buy because of this.
And like, what does your hairneed if you understand your
curly hair is already moreporous typically?
Like if you understand that yourstraight hair, your cuticles
typically closed if you're notbleaching and swimming in the

(26:12):
ocean every single day.
Uh what products to grab whenyou do do those outside things?

SPEAKER_03 (26:19):
You really have to treat it according to what is
present by hand.

SPEAKER_02 (26:24):
And how we we say socially is acceptable for how
to wear your hair.
It was this wasn't a thing 4,000years ago because nobody cared.

SPEAKER_03 (26:34):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (26:35):
And there wasn't this much going on in the world
in the air to harm your hair.
So it's all science now.

SPEAKER_03 (26:43):
It is, it sure is.
I know this young lady from myhometown, she DM'd me on
Facebook and she's just lookingfor some hair care advice.
Okay.
And so to make a long dialogueshort, she said, natural hair is

(27:04):
complicated.
And I said, that's notnecessarily true.
I said, but your regimen is verycomplicated.

SPEAKER_02 (27:13):
Yes.
That's what I've my researchthat I've done.
I mean, most people come to mewith like a bag full of shit.

SPEAKER_00 (27:20):
I don't know if I'm Yeah, you are.

SPEAKER_02 (27:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I remember being thatperson.
So my story that I tell behindthe chair is like I was a
product whore.
Like I wanted everything thatcame out, you know, in the 90s,
in the 2000s.
When they opened Sephora, Icould have emptied my bank
account.
I mean, I just everything.
And then when I got hired towork with some of the girls that

(27:45):
um that worked for the company,naturallycurly.com.

SPEAKER_03 (27:49):
Oh yeah.
I remember that.

SPEAKER_02 (27:51):
That was my teens.
Like April told me about them.
I go meet these, this couplethat has off 183, this white
couple that had like all of thenatural products in Austin that
you could think of.
They they had them in awarehouse.
So I used to go into thiswarehouse and go just like
peruse through the Jane Carter,all these products as a young
kid.

(28:11):
I was obsessed.
Um, which I don't know whatwe're talking about, by the way,
at this point.
I don't know what this talk is.

SPEAKER_03 (28:16):
Well we talk about, you know, like how celebrities,
you know, they capitalize, youknow.
Yeah.
And then, you know, uh, youmentioned the win products.
And um, I don't know how we gotthere though.
We've just been talking.
I was like, let me make sure Icircle back to my I was telling
you about the my um Your Yourclient.
Well, she's not my client, justa a friend from back at home.

(28:39):
And I was telling her that herhair care regimen was
complicated.
That's where we worked.
Okay, that's where we worked.
Lord have mercy, y'all.
This Sunday, forgive us.

SPEAKER_02 (28:47):
And I'm about to be 41 this month, so I have to
remember that my brain is notwhat it was 10 years ago.
But yes, like all these productsthat I used to have, and not I
can't say that not one of themwas solving a problem that I was
trying to solve at that timebecause I just wanted different
hair.

SPEAKER_03 (29:04):
I just wanted different hair.
I didn't want the hair I had.
Do you feel as though that maybe a lot or the majority of my
clients that come to me?
You're fascinated.

SPEAKER_02 (29:15):
Because I don't lay the edges.
I don't put on the wig, I don'tcover it up.
So a lot of times by the timeI'm finishing up my
consultation, I'm like, listen,I have bought all the products.
But really and truly, you needto figure out why you have a
closet full of products.
It's because you want differenthair.
You don't, you're not trying toAnd that's what you know what
products are gonna you're youknow, the edge control is gonna

(29:35):
lay your edges.
Right.
But you w you typically wantdifferent hair.
You're trying to alter what itis that you have.
Very seldom are you gonna findpeople that will wash their hair
and just walk out the door.

SPEAKER_03 (29:45):
Yeah.
I've in my years of experience,I've only had one girl that did
that.

SPEAKER_02 (29:52):
Yeah, or just do a protective style with no extra
you know.

SPEAKER_03 (29:56):
No extra bedazzle.
Right.
Yeah.
I've only had a bad bad.
That one girl that wouldliterally sit in that chair and
she'd be like, okay, we're good.
And wear it.
Now she do now she did have, youknow, high density.

SPEAKER_02 (30:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (30:11):
Fine hair.
So, you know, it it would notwork out the next day because
that's a lot of detangling, youknow.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
But yeah, she was, but she allshe was just missed it with her
products and she would move on.

SPEAKER_02 (30:24):
That's a lot of my clients.
So I just and I know I don'tknow if it just became because
of my aesthetic, right?
Like I don't really get into Iused to in my twenties try to
lay the edges, but I think onceI came to this realization,
like, there's no edge controlthat's gonna lay my edges.
Mine don't be rolled up in anhour.

SPEAKER_03 (30:40):
I am not.
I don't even.

SPEAKER_02 (30:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (30:43):
I don't even try.
No.
And I'm like, if now if you havea natural little baby hair, I'll
go ahead and swoop them.
Swoop them over.
Right.
Like if the hair permits.
Right.
But if you don't know, but theway how they cut it now and they
they part cut flat ironhairspray, I ain't doing that.

SPEAKER_02 (31:01):
No.
No, no.
No.

SPEAKER_03 (31:03):
It's And it's nowhere on my page that you see
me lay an edge.
I ain't never laid an edge.
Right.
I don't even know how.
If I'm being honest.
No, not the way how they do ittoday.

unknown (31:15):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (31:15):
No.
Simple.
Simple.
I was a Let's Jam kid.
Mmm.
There might be some PTSD and allthat, which is why I'm just
accepting my, you know.
Hey Minnie, there's some stuffrunning down your face.
When you do a class and yourbody heat would heat up and the
Letch Jam starts sliding downyour face.

SPEAKER_03 (31:36):
It smells so good though.

SPEAKER_02 (31:38):
It didn't like candy.

SPEAKER_03 (31:39):
Gosh.
Every the green cap.
Yeah.
The orange cap.

SPEAKER_02 (31:42):
Yep, the pink.
All of the green was my eye.
I just liked how the bottlesounded when you hit it.
Oh, another nail pong top.
But yeah.
No.
Yeah.
Product two.
Product crazy for to try tochange.
That's what I feel like I wasdoing.
Just trying to change.
And then I became now I'm like aminimalist.
It is what it is.

SPEAKER_03 (32:03):
I know.
But it's so freeing.
Mm-hmm.
Whenever you just let go.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (32:07):
No, I would love to grow it out and play with even
just the simple products that Ihave now because I know
scientifically, these are theproducts that are give me the
results that I want.
And it's like a set of justthree products for my crops.

SPEAKER_03 (32:20):
That's what I told her.
I told her, I said, you have somany products.
Yeah, why is it complicated?
But I told her, I said, nothingis complicated.
I said, your regimen iscomplicated.
You have, as I am, you knowwhat?
It's a lot.
She has so many products.

SPEAKER_02 (32:36):
And we end up exacerbating a problem, which I
think to me, what's complicatedis what's going on internally
sometimes.
When you can't style your hairbecause you're losing hair or
whatever, things like that.
That makes it complicated.
Because then you feel like youneed all these routines and all
these products and all thesesupplements to make it grow or
make it something that it's not.

(32:56):
But it's not really thatcomplicated.

SPEAKER_03 (32:59):
No.

SPEAKER_02 (33:00):
It's real and It does take attention and care.
I think I will say when I wentnatural initially, but I was
also very young.

SPEAKER_01 (33:07):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (33:07):
And coming from a family of people who were not
natural.
I thought it was gonna be harderwork.

SPEAKER_01 (33:13):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (33:14):
Which I don't know that it was harder, but it was
it was just as like equitablework is a relaxer.

SPEAKER_03 (33:22):
Mm-hmm.
Like attention and care.
Exactly.
Yeah.
I was about to say, like inwhat, like what in what realm,
you know?

SPEAKER_02 (33:30):
Ritualistically.
Like I have a ritual now, whichum like on Octo October 24th,
Maddie's coming into town fromCurly Color Magic from Dallas.

SPEAKER_03 (33:39):
Oh yeah.
I think she come.
Yes.
I remember you telling me abouther.
Okay, yeah.
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (33:44):
I think we haven't started like blasting everybody
yet, but one flyer.
But yeah, I wanted to get getinto really just teaching people
more so rituals with the curlpatterns that you have.
And like, how do you spend timewith these certain products in
the different zones of your hairthat need the care and attention
and love that they need?

SPEAKER_03 (34:04):
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
I feel like that can starthelping internally too.
Yeah.
I mean, not wholeheartedly, butsome slight adjustments, you
know.

SPEAKER_02 (34:15):
I think it has a a huge impact.
And for those that arepartnered, I'm like, hand your
partner the gua sha, thewhatever.
Hand them this product and letthem y'all create a ritual at
night where you can stopstressing about your hair or
what is so complicated or thatit doesn't look like the
Colombian girls.
Because I would see a lot ofpeople buying products trying to

(34:35):
well, you know, and then showingme the YouTube, and I'm like
that is nothing like your hair.
You all are it's like twocompletely different DNA.
And there's not amount thisamount of cream or pink lotion
that is gonna make your hairswivel.

SPEAKER_03 (34:51):
It's not.
That's the sad part.
It is sad because it's it's notyou can't do nothing about it.
Period.
You just can't, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (35:03):
And that goes, that's a that's a whole other
whole other subject.

SPEAKER_03 (35:07):
It is.
That's an episode.

SPEAKER_02 (35:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (35:09):
Literally.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:11):
Because there's a whole group of people still
talking like that.

SPEAKER_03 (35:14):
Oh yeah, for sure, yeah.
Especially on TikTok.
People are more vulnerable andtransparent on t TikTok.

SPEAKER_02 (35:19):
I still don't get on it.

SPEAKER_03 (35:20):
You know?

SPEAKER_02 (35:21):
I haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_03 (35:22):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (35:23):
I don't know that I'm prepared.

SPEAKER_03 (35:26):
Yeah, they are definitely way more I feel like
Instagram wears a filter.
Okay.
And TikTok absolutely do not.

SPEAKER_02 (35:37):
Ooh, so I can get on TikTok.

SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
Yeah, you can talk freely and openly.
Um I feel like as long as yousay in the facts, go ahead.
But it's it can be reallyintense.

SPEAKER_02 (35:49):
That's what my son told me.
He was like, Mom, don't get on.
I said, why?
He was like, 'cause they mean.

SPEAKER_03 (35:55):
They are mean.
I feel like you can get a goodmix.
Some are nice, some are mean,some are indifferent.

SPEAKER_00 (36:01):
Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 (36:03):
Girl.

SPEAKER_00 (36:04):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (36:07):
I'll show you one of my clips.

SPEAKER_02 (36:10):
Um And you've gotten eaten a line.

SPEAKER_03 (36:13):
Well, Nia, she made a comment on the uh it wasn't
the last episode, because Icreated a solo episode in
between actually a couple of.
It was episode one of thisseason.
And she made a comment thatrubbed the black women in our
community the wrong way.
And they were so it was bad.

(36:36):
It was bad.
I I turned the comments off.
It was that bad.
And in my mind, I'm thinkingthis was an opportunity to
create healthy dialogue, andy'all attacked her.

SPEAKER_02 (36:46):
Oh, I mean, it's the internet.
Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 (36:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (36:49):
But it was can I answer the comment?

SPEAKER_03 (36:52):
Yeah, she said um her mother's hair was long for a
black woman.
So on Instagram, it got nothing.
But on TikTok, it was gonna goviral, many, because it was just
the comments were like coming inand coming in.

SPEAKER_02 (37:08):
The views were just Yeah, and that was that that's
to me like a matter of like alack of emotional intelligence
to not step back and notunderstand where, huh?

SPEAKER_03 (37:18):
Yeah, like where did it come from?

SPEAKER_02 (37:19):
Yeah, where did all this come from?
Because um, I I you could seeboth sides of that.
Where like as I got older andI'm looking around at the
different, we're not a monolith,but maybe what you saw in your
area were people who weregetting relaxers because
demographically that was supernormal.
So you didn't see people whogrew long hair.
The hair was relaxed so muchthat it would break off.

(37:41):
And that was typically like whatyou saw.
You didn't go to school withlike Caribbean girls in New York
or Louisiana where you had theHaitian Creole mixtures that
unveiled to you that, like, oh,we are not a monolith.
But some people have grown up inareas in the South where it's

(38:01):
relaxed with city and you youyou get in the bob, and that's
about it.

SPEAKER_03 (38:04):
And that's about it.
And that's exactly what Iaddressed.
I had to create another episodeaddressing that episode.
And basically stated, justbecause her experience is not
yours, don't make it not realfor her.

SPEAKER_02 (38:17):
Correct.
Because I would, I mean, I don'tthink it was until I got older
that I noticed that the women inmy family, my mom's side, uh,
grew really long hair.

SPEAKER_03 (38:28):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (38:28):
Really long hair.

SPEAKER_03 (38:30):
And also, you know, I'm sure, you know, when you
went to cosmetology school, youwhen you learned the science,
the anatomy, the physiologybehind the side.

SPEAKER_02 (38:39):
Exactly.
Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 (38:40):
But the hair growth phase and the cycles of it, you
learn like that is not true.
Right.
You know, accord according to,you know, science.

SPEAKER_01 (38:48):
It's not.

SPEAKER_03 (38:49):
But that does not mean her experience is invalid
girl.
And it was just, they startedtalking about her, like
attacking her appearance.
And I said Easy.

SPEAKER_02 (39:00):
That's easy to do.
I think that's the part.
Yeah, that's easy to do.

SPEAKER_03 (39:04):
And I said, y'all are just instead of, you know,
offering, you know, how, youknow, like like speaking from a
place of your experience, that'sfine.
You can do that.
I said, but all y'all did wasdeepen the oppression when you
did that.

SPEAKER_02 (39:19):
Which is which is why people have this discord
when they go get their hair donenow and want to put it all over
the internet.
Cause there's where's the lackof like intelligence in this
situation?
Why not ask her where she'scoming from in that in that
space?

SPEAKER_03 (39:32):
I was like I said, and I that was an opportunity
for healthy dialogue.
And y'all just even one girlagreed with her.
I'm like, see, I like that.
Even one, like, there was somecomments stating I've uh had
this experience with my mom.
My mom had the long hair.
Mine was always short.
I'm like, that why we can go,even if you disagree, you could

(39:54):
simply say, that's not myexperience.
Where I grew up, it was likethis and that.
What were y'all doing?
Like, what what what when youwere growing up, where you
wherever you were growing up?
And then what you were beingtold.
Right.
Like, what was that about?
That was, girl, I was just like,yeah, this was a great
opportunity that just became anun.
Right.
And I just, I just turned tocomments.

SPEAKER_02 (40:15):
I mean, and then you, yeah, you can't, you can't
fault what other people's lackof intelligence as well when it
comes to that, like how far theyknow about this conversation,
because a lot of people havejust been told that.
Like, and just demographically,how families spread out, where
they landed, what they've beentold.
Like you've been told adifferent story, whether you're
black or not.

SPEAKER_03 (40:35):
True.

SPEAKER_02 (40:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (40:36):
That's so true.

SPEAKER_02 (40:37):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 (40:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (40:38):
Like how we still think hair is nappy and how we
speak to hair.
Like that could that is a wholeconversation to be had.

SPEAKER_03 (40:44):
It sure is.
Yes.
It's such a derogatory term.
Um, even when I used torecommend this hair extension
company called Nappy HairExtensions, some of my clients
would be like, What is this?
And I'd like, I mean, it's shehas she sells great quality
hair.
I know the adjective is very, itcan raise some eyebrows for

(41:06):
sure.

SPEAKER_02 (41:06):
But I mean, it's it's kind of like that um trying
to think of it.
That double-edged sword.
It's like a double-edged sword.
There's a book that I have thatthis lady bought me.
It's like, but it uses theN-word, but it's, you know, kind
of that duality of it, right?
Now it's like sweet, it can beso sweet for us to also very

(41:27):
sour.
There's a painting in, or not apainting, but an art piece in
Riches art gallery that saysnappy.
I don't allow my clients to saynappy, but there's something so
sweet and nostalgic about andthat carries a weight about that
word as well.

SPEAKER_03 (41:41):
I guess it's about perspective.
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (41:44):
I mean, and just how you use it too.
Where are you where you knowwhat it means, the sentiment
behind it.
Like I think it's such acherished word because it was
carried so long to be a like abad state of our hair.
But there's something, I don'tknow, maybe it's just something
about that art piece too thatI'm like.
Because you got the visualrepresentation too.

SPEAKER_03 (42:05):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then some people's visualrepresentation in their minds,
what they saw that was attachedto the word nappy, it ain't
gonna be what you saw, you know?
Yeah.
So this was like, it's all aboutperspective, experiences, all of
that.
Have you seen people feelpressured or discouraged because
of their assigned number on acurl pattern chart?

(42:28):
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (42:30):
I mean, as soon as my clients come in and ask me
about the chart, I'm I I don'teven, we're not even like get
the da-da-da.
Educate that.
Like I'll ed like I'll educateyou on the reason for it.
Mm-hmm.
But we're not.
You know.

SPEAKER_03 (42:45):
When did you make up your mind where you like
absolutely not?
I'm done with the curl patternchart.

SPEAKER_02 (42:50):
It was probably two years ago.

SPEAKER_03 (42:52):
Mm-hmm.
Roughly around the same time Idid.

SPEAKER_02 (42:54):
Yeah, and I think I had seen something that you
posted, and I was like, oh,thank God, can you just talk
about this?

SPEAKER_03 (42:58):
Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 (42:59):
Cause I was just like, I'm not getting why people
are so like held hostage.
It's like held hostage.
But America, there were productscoming out, which no shape,
right?
For C only.
I'm like, get your coins, girl.
But people were just literallylike, I can only use this
product.
No, she created a product foryou.

(43:22):
I mean, for if you have thathair and if you couldn't find
nothing else.

SPEAKER_03 (43:25):
Gotcha.
She gotcha.
And it indirectly impacts usbecause they are so good at
influencing.
And we're just professionals.
We our job is not to influence,it's to educate.
So whenever we are going upagainst influencers, that's like
an emotional attachment thatthey have with these

(43:46):
influencers.
Opposed to us, we'reprofessionals and we're just
educating.
So there's no emotion attached.
So we're less likely to belistened to.
They don't believe us, you know,and so it's like this constant
battle of, well, I I was saw Isaw this influencer on TikTok
and on YouTube, and we have hairvery similar.
And I'm like, it might look thesame.

(44:08):
And I highly doubt that.
It might look the same, buty'all's hair is not the same.

SPEAKER_02 (44:13):
Right.
Because to break it down, yourlifestyle is not the same.
Your DNA is different.

SPEAKER_03 (44:18):
I didn't even consider lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 (44:19):
Your water is the water you use is not the same.
It's, you know, the water inAustin is different than the
water that's in Houston, right?
So it there's so many componentsthat go in into that.
And I find that it's cool thatit's happening right now, that
they're all, oh yeah, I watchthis video and then I got went

(44:42):
and bought this.
And I watched this video andthen I went and bought this
video.
But then the epic fail.
Because that's what we're herefor at the end of the day,
right?
Because it's like, let me, well,then let me influentially
educate you.
Okay.
Yeah.
Because I've done it.
It's just in a differentindustry.
I've done it in the sense oflike my business, right?
Where I try to take bits andpieces from here until I finally

(45:02):
was like, no, I need to talk tothe business guru herself.
Like I'm sitting down with herbecause taking bits and pieces
from the internet to Chat GPT tothat girl who started the the
rock bead company over there istoo much.
And that's what I'm finding whenthey're coming into their
consultations, is like they comewith all this internet jargon.

(45:22):
And this girl, she uses this,this, this, that, that.

SPEAKER_03 (45:24):
I love that analogy.
It makes it more relatable towhy they're doing this.
Yeah.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (45:29):
Because they want to learn.
Yeah.
Right?
So it's like I tell them, well,if you want to take all this
time and like your time is yourmoney.
I've done it.
Like putting for years, puttingall my interest in this little
bit of information here, thislittle bit of why don't you just
sit down with a professionalwho's going to tell you and help
you understand why it is thatyou're grabbing this?
Because that girl over therethat you're watching a video of,

(45:52):
she knows what to do with herhair for now.

SPEAKER_03 (45:55):
For now.
Until it's no longer working.

SPEAKER_02 (45:57):
Until her hormones change, until she goes and gets
color, and she doesn'tunderstand the science of her
hair.

SPEAKER_01 (46:02):
Right?

SPEAKER_02 (46:02):
So it works for now.
Probably great genetics, growsgreat hair, not much is ever
gonna mess up her hairline.
You know, all you gotta hope isthat maybe she has bad toenails
or something.
You know what?
But not everybody has thisstory, and you can't go off of
what you see or what they'reusing.

(46:23):
Because you do also don't knowwhat they're being paid.

SPEAKER_03 (46:26):
That part paid to just influence you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:30):
I paid.
I paid to give you thisinformation.
I paid someone to sit down andteach me to be able to continue
educating you on this subject.

SPEAKER_01 (46:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:41):
And I am forever, you know, that person on the
internet if something comes outnext, they're onto that.

SPEAKER_00 (46:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (46:48):
Right?
So it's great.
You can watch and listen, butyou wouldn't understand if it's
not working for you why it's notworking.
That's what I mean.

SPEAKER_03 (46:58):
Yeah, I agree.
And hair is just, we're so loyaland committed to it.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not to us.
As soon as the slightest thingchanges in your body, they hair
be like, yeah, I'm out of here.
And do.
It's so true.
It's so true.

(47:18):
Like you said, any little thinglike hormonal lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 (47:24):
Yeah, the one where it matters, because then it
comes in places that'll show upin places that you never asked
for.

SPEAKER_03 (47:32):
Is not, is it even our friend at this point?

SPEAKER_02 (47:35):
I don't know.
But have you been hearing thatthe monoxidal DHT blocker
combination is really helpingpeople?

SPEAKER_03 (47:41):
Yes, I have.

SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
Okay.
Yeah.
I'm a little nervous about it,but I think I'm gonna.

SPEAKER_03 (47:44):
Yeah, well, even when I had Dr.
Sayo Bayan on the show, she wasum, I think she's creating a
product where some of that'sgonna be incorporated, if I'm
not mistaken.
I know we touched on thatsubject, but maybe hers is all
actually natural ingredients tomake her DHT blocker.
But she just named a fewingredients that's going into

(48:06):
her DHT blocker.

SPEAKER_02 (48:07):
Okay.
I'm gonna try to do that.

SPEAKER_03 (48:08):
But I have seen it.
I and that's the thing.
Like it it be so muchinformation out here.
It's like, wait, did Dr.
Saya say that or did I hear thatsomewhere else?
You know, but That's theproblem, I know.

SPEAKER_02 (48:18):
My aunt I love my auntie to death, but she like
brought in this she's doingsomething, the MLM kind of
thing, and it was like, I wantyou to display this in your
salon, it helps people's hairgrow and the collagen, and I was
just like I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 (48:38):
But no.
Like, I love things.

SPEAKER_02 (48:41):
We're just trying to get past the curl chart part,
right?
Yeah, this is not.

SPEAKER_03 (48:45):
I believe, you know, like when it comes to hair, I
believe the terminology andunderstanding of hair growth has
been just misunderstood becauseyou'll have clients that'll sit
in your chair and say, My hairdon't grow.
And I'm like, No, your hair'sgrowing, you're just not
retaining the length, you know.

(49:05):
And even I've caught myself, youknow, saying it without
consciously listening to myselfsay it until it became the same
where clients were reallycarrying that weight.
And I'm like, wait a minute,hold on.
I gotta really take a few stepsback and realize what am I
communicating?
You know, what am I saying tothem?

(49:26):
So once I started, you know,showing them like there, those
are two different things.
You know, you have hair growthand then you have hair
retention, hair lengthretention.
And I think these products aretrying to say it will help
retain length versus growinghair from the bulb.
Exactly.
And so then it is presentedunintentionally like a scam, you

(49:50):
know.
Unintentionally, you know.

SPEAKER_02 (49:53):
Yeah, because when you get into the growth part,
there's then you're going realdeep.

SPEAKER_03 (49:58):
Yeah, you're going to be beyond the surface.
You know, we all up in the whatthey call a hair papilla.
What was the papilla?
Papilla, girl.
I just saw two L's and I know inSpanish two L's made the Y
sound.
Okay.
Hold on.
And that could have beensomething from Spanish.

SPEAKER_02 (50:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I know.
I had I was like, there's justnot, there's not a lot.
I'm gonna like start pushing inmy salon that's promising
growth.
It's just not happening.

SPEAKER_03 (50:24):
Mm-mm, because it's it can't happen.
Right.
I hope you retain some weight.

SPEAKER_02 (50:30):
She was like, no, no, no.
It really does help them like.

SPEAKER_03 (50:34):
No, it don't.
It doesn't.
No.

SPEAKER_02 (50:37):
And now you could be doing things that are in
pivoting.

SPEAKER_03 (50:43):
You could be, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (50:44):
Smoking, drinking.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (50:46):
And so now it's counteracting.
It's not even, and that'sanother thing.
It's just like a rabbit hole ofreasons why.

SPEAKER_02 (50:54):
But you got a lot of people who want the want, the,
want, the, want, the, want the.
So you got a system that's gonnagive it, give it, get big, give
it.

SPEAKER_03 (50:59):
Give it, give it, give it.
Instead of just being honest,having some friggin' terror.

SPEAKER_02 (51:05):
That's why I love this whole thing of like just
creating the ritual.
And I've been asking my clients,like, photo journal, right?
Awesome.
Right, write, write it down.
Take a picture.
Write it down how you'refeeling.
Write it down with your aidtoday.
Yeah.
You know?
Yeah.
Grab the couple products that wetalked about, do your whole wash
system, but like, try not toworry about it.
Brush your scalp.
Hand the brush to your partner.
Hand the brush to your kid.

(51:25):
Yeah.
Brush your scalp.
But like, try to remember yourstress levels, right?
Take a look at your mom.

SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
Cortisol, red.

SPEAKER_02 (51:32):
Look at her hairline.
What stressed her out at yourage now?
Try not to go there.
Try to ashwagandha this shitout.
Oshwagandha.
Yes.
Book an extra yoga class.
One more vacation.
But if your mama goes walkingaround at this age, screaming
and yelling with her spoon inher hand at the grandkids, this

(51:54):
is not the direction you want togo, or you're going to lose
another inch to the skull.

SPEAKER_03 (51:59):
Ah, grand opera.

SPEAKER_02 (52:01):
Nope.
It doesn't matter what your curlpattern is.

SPEAKER_03 (52:03):
It don't.
It doesn't matter.
It don't, and that's the thing.
Science don't care about yourhair and your curl pattern.
They do, it does not care.
Whatever you are experiencing,whatever you are experiencing,
whatever, whatever lifestyle youchoose to have, trustably, that
hair is going to respond.
Yes.

SPEAKER_02 (52:24):
It's everybody's is, you know, on a different scale.
Some some people have it, youknow, more grandiose.
Some people struggle with weightgain.
Yeah.
Some people struggle I strugglewith weight loss.
I'm stressed, weight loss.
And hair loss.

SPEAKER_03 (52:41):
Mine's, I want to gain weight.

unknown (52:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (52:44):
And it's hard.

SPEAKER_02 (52:45):
Because now I understand it makes sense when I
would hear people like, I can'tl look at something and I gain
weight.
And I'm like, I can go one daywithout eating, and I'm like
down a pound.
Down two pounds.

SPEAKER_03 (52:55):
Yeah.
I I wonder if it's a thyroid.
I do want to get my thyroidcheck because I'm just like you.
I can't skip a meal.
If I skip a meal, you say onepound.
I'm like, oh suffice, one pound,girl.
I'll drop like three.

SPEAKER_02 (53:07):
Yeah.
It's pretty where you're like.

SPEAKER_03 (53:11):
No, for make a bologna sandwich with some
chips.

SPEAKER_02 (53:18):
Takes my head.

SPEAKER_03 (53:19):
Can you share examples of how the chart has
reinforced texturism or biaseither in salons or broader
media?

SPEAKER_02 (53:28):
If I can answer this up.
Can I an example of how it is?

SPEAKER_03 (53:33):
How the chart has reinforced texturism.
Like, think about that.

SPEAKER_02 (53:36):
Like it's just made people go back to the space of
like, it's more difficult.
Yeah.
4C here needs more, more, more,more the resources, the
products.
We couldn't, you know, it justlike, and that now you're back
in a difficult space.
Um and this is why I just kindof just don't.
Just try these, you know, figureout what it is you want to feel.

(53:58):
Figure it out what what are whatare you really trying to
achieve?
You know?
But I feel like it makes putspeople in a space of trying to
decide is their hair easy ordifficult?
Is it more difficult?

SPEAKER_03 (54:10):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (54:11):
And it's like, what do you really want?
Like, at times I want my hair tojust be soft.
So I just go, now I knowReverie's going to make my hair
soft.
It's not going to change mytexture.
It's not going to do anything.
And it makes me not, which iswhy I sell the shit out of it,
because I think for 4C girlies,sometimes we're just trying to

(54:34):
make our hair feel soft andapproachable.
And so that's a product thatdoesn't.
And it doesn't stay on ourshelves because people are like,
it works.
I mean it works for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 (54:44):
Mm-hmm.
But I feel as though it is moredifficult for that high density,
fine, you know, low porositytexture.
It's it's m way more difficultbecause I feel I feel as though
the industry hasn't curated orcreated a space for that
texture.
The kinky?
Mm-hmm.
It's it's more you can find waymore products on the shelves

(55:06):
that will cater to the loosertextures opposed to the tighter
ones.
You know.
And I just feel as though theydon't know much about it.
They have not even in theschools, there's not a lot of
education.

SPEAKER_02 (55:19):
No.

SPEAKER_03 (55:19):
You know, even when we were going to school, they
were teaching us to alter it andmake it straighter and make it
looser.

SPEAKER_02 (55:25):
Because that's that's my thing.
My my my question is like thewhat the what the frick are you
trying to do with that texture,right?
And so for me, as a person whocarries a really tight Z call
tiny or C, what I hear and whatI experience was that I was
trying to change it.
I was always trying to changeit.
When it really I just want itsoft.

(55:46):
It's not now that I am, it's notchanging.
It's not going, I can slick itdown, I can put some mousse on
it and slick it down for like aday.
But it is the ultimate curly.
So uh when I tell people to usemilk and it gives them the
softness where they can maybestretch it a little bit more, it
doesn't feel so tangled.
I'm like, this product is all itis, is the science of it and

(56:08):
what he's brought together.
So with force, I don't know whatyou're really trying to change.
What are we trying to reallyWhat is the real goal?

SPEAKER_03 (56:17):
Like are you really your texture or do you want it
to feel softer, like you said,or do you want it more
manageable?
Is it right?

SPEAKER_02 (56:25):
Because what are we trying to do with it?
Because if you put are youtrying to get it to spiral curl,
it's not going to, right?
Unless you put a flex rod in it.
That's right.
Then you may want to make itcomplicated.
Yeah.
But otherwise, likeunderstanding the science of
what you're trying to grab, ifyou can identify what it is
you're trying to do, then I caneither tell you never happening

(56:45):
or grab this product.

SPEAKER_03 (56:46):
And also accept the never happening.
Don't try to force it becausethen it gets more complicated.
Because you see that too, wherethey will try to force what's
not gonna happen, you know?
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (56:57):
So that's the question when they're going for
the 4C product and try like,what are you trying to achieve
with this product?
Like, I'm trying trying toachieve more moisture.
What what do you mean?
Do you do you want it to feellike greasy or do you want it to
get silky like like chilies?
Because when I listen to thatconversation, I typically hear,

(57:21):
I don't want this hair.

SPEAKER_03 (57:23):
Yes.
1,000%.

SPEAKER_02 (57:25):
The product to change it.
That it's gonna change it.

SPEAKER_03 (57:29):
And it's like it ain't happening.

SPEAKER_02 (57:31):
Some of some of your best products for what you're
actually like or don't even saythat.
That that doesn't say all ofthis.
Which milk doesn't speak tothat.
I mean, it is created by a whiteman, so it doesn't speak to
that.
But typically when I give peoplethat product or puts it in their
hair, I'm like, it's not becausehe did something better.
Right.
He just stuck to the science andhe puts the pH on the bottle.

(57:54):
So you see it when you grab itthat this is going to help close
your super open cuticle.

SPEAKER_03 (58:01):
Which is probably what the hair feels like if it's
wide open.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I've had clients to tell methough they did want a different
texture.
Just rightfully out said.
Just say it, you know.
Like I don't and I'm tellingyou, they have nice, healthy,
beautiful hair, and they justdon't like that.

SPEAKER_02 (58:24):
That annoys me.
I will say.

SPEAKER_03 (58:26):
No, that's one of your annoyances.
It has made me cry.
Yeah.
Because there's nothing you cando to help them.

SPEAKER_02 (58:33):
And you can just see what what what our history as
human of human beings has likedone to people as human beings.

SPEAKER_03 (58:42):
Yeah.
Absolutely.
Okay.
We're getting close on time.
Let's see.
I'm trying to pick and choosewhich question I want to ask
her, y'all.
Oh, my stomach growling.
Is it talking?
Did you eat?
No, I did not get a chance toeat.
Because you know, I drove uphere and it's it's very rural.

(59:05):
So in my little where you cameout from.

SPEAKER_02 (59:08):
Yeah.
Could you sell them like copperscope?

SPEAKER_00 (59:10):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
You already addressed that.

SPEAKER_03 (59:19):
How can stylists support their clients in
celebrating all textures withoutthe limitations of a chart?
I think you kind of addressthat.

SPEAKER_02 (59:27):
When you I think a lot of times it's our words too.
It's not even that difficult.
Just stop just change your howyou talk.
I mean, just stop referring toit.
I think it's just the level of Idon't know, maybe a space to
want to complain about someshit.
I don't know.

(59:49):
But it's like, just stop sayingyour hair is nappy and you might
make a friend with it.
Like, I don't know.
I don't say my hair is nappy,right?
Like, is it where I want it tobe lengthwise?
Is it where I want to be?
To be growth-wise, it is what itis.
It is.
And it's not because I'm ahairdresser, but because I've
chosen to love my hair that butI also adorn my head, right?
You gotta make make somethingwith it without tearing it up.

(01:00:12):
I refuse to tear it up.
But I will wear hats to adorn.
So I just think taking the thelanguage, changing the language
around it could really help alot of people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:24):
It sure does.
Nia mentioned that also in thelast episode.
She brought up Tabitha, howTabitha names her hair Donna.
Because you know she has thehair product, Donna's hair
recipe.
Yeah.
And she pretty much said thatwhen you said make a friend, it
made me think about her episode.

SPEAKER_02 (01:00:41):
I mean, I I think it's brilliant.
You hear people always say thatthese grays they're just too
much, everything.
I love my grays.
Right.
Give them a personality if itmakes you feel better or not
stress out.
Because if you can identify thatstress has put an extra five
pounds on your stomach, imaginewhat it's doing to your scalp
when you're saying it'sshedding.
It's all coming from within.
So go eat a cookie.

(01:01:02):
Eat something that's gonna makeyou happy.
And you can maybe some ice creamon the side.
Because I do, you know, whenpeople and it is, it is a to me.
I am finding that like ouraunties and our mother's
generation that just can't say akind word about their hair.
What is that?
It has to stop.
Many.
And they don't even they don'teven hear when you say, stop

(01:01:23):
saying that.
Your hair's really not it beblow drying out all easy.
This nappy stuff.
I just think but it's a wholething.
Cause I'm learning like even themen, the the husbands.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:33):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:34):
Go get your hair straightened.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:36):
Baby, that's why I'm single.
I'm I'm learning.
Amen.
Because I I mean I've heard it.
I've heard it while I've beenout dating.
And it typically comes from I'veheard it more from black men.
Absolutely.
Right?
Because they feel more inclinedto it's relatable.
It makes sense that theirmothers, their aunties, like,
are you gonna do something withyour hair?
No.
No, because this is my hair.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:54):
Right.

SPEAKER_02 (01:01:54):
Right?
Because your mom and your auntcall it nappy.
So I you know, it's it's it's ait's a broader pain point than a
whole other podcast.
But it is that is that is thethe part of the industry that
annoys me of of or I'd say myday-to-day is when I hear that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:13):
I won't disclose this family member.
It's kinda hard not to, butthese two characters in this
story.
Okay, we have one that's aboutseven or eight, and then one of
the older generation.
Okay.
You know, very old.
Okay.
And the seven-year-old,eight-year-old hair was just

(01:02:36):
out, blown out and fro.
And it was deemed as you need todo something about that.
She didn't say naffy.
But she said, you do need to dosomething about that.
And I wish I knew the exactwording because it immediately I
was triggered, you know.
And I said, that's not how youspeak to someone that's

(01:02:58):
developing, especially that'sdeveloping.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:00):
And they don't understand that because they
come from a place where you hadto have your kids look in a
certain way.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:08):
Yep.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:08):
Or the W man was gonna see them and then make
you, you know, you couldn't goget the bank clone.
Or you was bad.
You looked a certain way inschool, or maybe y'all were
poor.
And they have not deconstructedthat.
So in my consultations, I dotalk about like I hear the
keywords that you're saying.
So we're gonna if you come tome, we're gonna start working on
deconstructing that.
Because I don't do that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:29):
That's right.
I can't help you anyway.
If if if we don't, I can't helpyou because no matter what I do.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:34):
Yeah, then you're gonna always believe that you're
nappy, unkempt, you know, you'reunpresentable, you can't get the
job what that way.
I should be living and breathingproof that it's untrue.
Right.
Right?
And you could add tattoos andpiercings.

unknown (01:03:48):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:50):
So you can, but this is a belief system that you have
in your head based off ofhistorical events that no longer
applies today in 2026.
So you have to change the wayyou speak.
Cause it's yeah, that part, thatpart kills me.
Because it even translates intomothers who adopt outside of the

(01:04:11):
race and bring them to peoplewho look like us and then want
to even uh like denounce what itis that they have.
Like I had a mother that waslike, I told her she didn't have
Afro hair.
Afro hair is the hair thatMichael Jackson has.
And I was like, You wouldn'teven be close to the Afro race
to even be speaking on that.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:32):
So to tell your daughter that it was African
that she didn't have Afro hair,I was like, this is bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:44):
Because she carried a negative, the mother carried a
negative connotation with Afroand didn't want her daughter to
be infiltrated with that badword.
That doesn't apply to you.
And I'm like, you must certainlyhave an afro.
You most certainly have an afro.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:00):
What'd she say when you say that?

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:02):
No, I that's what she called her mom.
No, I don't.
No, I don't.
Mom, she said I have afro hair.

SPEAKER_00 (01:05:08):
And she was like, Her mom came over.
Ask the mom to live.
Go to the store.
You're not helping.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:18):
Because you don't know what you're talking about.
She has afro hair and there'snothing wrong with it.
It's nothing.
But we've all taught everybodythat it's wrong and it still
carries uh just like a dumbbellthrough the nation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:32):
Like it's so derogatory.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:35):
Silky is what you want.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:38):
I always tell people my favorite hair is textured
hair.
It's so much easier.
I just like it.
Like I just like the fabrichair.
But when it comes to certainstyles, I do prefer an afro
texture, especially versatility.
Yeah, and not even yeah, withthe versatility, but when it
comes to especially like cornrowing, it is hard to corn row

(01:06:00):
silky hair.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:03):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:04):
So I'm just speaking more from depending on the
hairstyle.
I d there is a certain texture Iwill prefer opposed to others.
It's not a prejudice, it's apreference.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:15):
Yeah, because just the versatility that you get.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:17):
Right.
And also just not having tofight with it.
When you're trying to corn row asilkier or a looser texture,
keep a curl.
Yeah, it's it's just it itchallenges you.
So I feel like every texture hasa challenge.
It just depends on whathairstyle are you trying to do
with it.
Right.
You know, but to deem this highdensity or afro-textured hair as

(01:06:38):
challenging, unmanageable.

SPEAKER_02 (01:06:41):
It there's way more benefits to it.
It's sun blocking.
And it makes sense as to whythey would have tried to m mash
it down, make it go away, makeit look like ours.
It's sun blocking.
It's protecting.
When my clients are like, Myhair is thinning, I'm like,
guess what?
You're curly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:57):
Yeah, don't nobody really.
The curlier the hair, the finerit is.
You know, but yeah, that's howI, you know, that's how I feel.
Like, like I do love all hair,but when it comes to a certain
hairstyle, I definitely preferone over the other.
I do not get excited whensomebody hair.
When somebody books me with, Iwould take my crimping iron out
in a minute and create texture,you know?

(01:07:19):
So, you know, just it justdepends.
Like everything iscircumstantial, everything is
situational, and you approach itdepending on what is present.
Yeah.
And you need to approach it inorder to execute the finish the
way that they want to designright, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:33):
Yep.
I think that's true.
Yeah.
Textured hair, uh it has more,there's just more versatility to
it, and it has more benefits ifyou really wanted to compare,
like sit, sit down with it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:44):
Yeah.
But I love it.
Do more with it.
Yeah.
I think that's more like I loveit.
Yeah, it just depends.
Like, I'm it just depends.
You know.
It depends, you know, like nodifferent from detangling.
Yes, I would love to have thebenefits, even for my clients'
sake, to be able to detanglewithout the hassle that they

(01:08:06):
feel whenever they're trying tosection and part, and the hair
just keeps drawing back up tothe scalp, and they don't
understand.
Hold it with some tension andyou have to keep grabbing it,
you know, as you detangle,versus somebody with looser
texture, they don't have to doall of that, you know?
Yeah.
So I do feel as though sometimesthey want some something just
easy, some just low maintenance.
Maybe they do love their hair.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:27):
And that's common when they going from like
natural, they're just like, it'sjust easier.
And seeing that, I ain't gonnaargue with you.
Right.
But I I'll let you find out.
It's not easier.
No.
Your natural hair is gonna bethe like it's fun to straighten
your hair.
I guess if you perceive it aseasy, but wait till you start

(01:08:48):
getting older, right?
Or wait till your hair startshaving shedding issues and it's
bone straight.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:55):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:55):
And that's what you're accustomed to.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:08:58):
Natural's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_00 (01:09:01):
The natural?

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:02):
Yeah, I think so.
They happen with my grandmotherthat way.
Like she that's why she stillget 'em.
Relaxes, because she couldn'ttake care of her natural hair.
You know, it just depends.
You know, she don't she's notphysically able.
So she in order for it, youknow, to make it.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:18):
She makes her straightened.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:20):
Mm-hmm.
She relaxes.
And it's it's doing great.
She gets like two a year.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:24):
Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:25):
Like two a year.
And she stay on top of her trimsand cuts, and her hair is longer
than mine and it's fuller thanmine's.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:32):
So it's it's it's it depends.
It depends.
It depends.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:36):
Because I'm not, I don't do relaxers, but if they
want 'em, if they want to besilk pressed, yes, I will refer
them out.
But silk press, I'm here for asilk press.

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:46):
I'm here for a silk press until it starts getting
too stressful on the hair.
Um, or if they won't maintainit, but I'm not ever gonna stop
anybody from getting a silkpress or saying that it's easier
than curly hair.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:02):
It depends, you know, because if you go, if you
approach it realistically andunderstand that your hair is
gonna revert, it could beeasier.
It it's all in here in the mind.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:13):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:14):
You know, if you know by day three, it might
start to revert at the root.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:17):
Scroll back up?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:18):
Yeah, and everything is so circumstantial too,
because it's like, is your haireven, does it have the memory to
stay straight?
You know, you have to createthat to girl.
Okay, that we gotta wrap up.
We gotta wrap up, y'all.
I am so sorry.
We gotta wrap up.
Because we have gone past ourtime, but that was good.

(01:10:40):
We might have to create a couplemore episodes just based on
everything we were talkingabout, because that was getting
good.
I probably should have lied itfor two hours.
Make sure y'all follow Minnie onInstagram at Shag Noir Salon ATX
ATX.
What about your personal?
It's Tricofile.
Tricophile, okay.
Um, I didn't know if he wantedpeople to follow you there, so

(01:11:01):
that's what I was like, what areyou?

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:02):
So you know, that's where I'm a little bit more
trouble.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:07):
Check out Salon ATX.

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:09):
A professional.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:11):
Yeah, make sure y'all follow her for if you want
to experience more of me.
Y'all see how this episode gotso good.
We're running over time, so wegotta wrap it up with a couple
more minutes.
But thank y'all for tuning in.
Thank y'all.
That was such an importantconversation.
A big thank you to Minnie ofShag North Club for coming back
on the show for the third timeand sharing her insight.

(01:11:33):
If there's one thing to takeaway from today, it's that your
hair isn't a number or a letter.
The curl pattern chart might bepopular, but it doesn't define
your beauty, your worth, or howyou should take care of your
hair.
If you enjoyed this episode,subscribe, leave a review, and
share it with someone who willbenefit from hearing this.
And don't forget to follow me.
She's always giving great adviceand supporting the community.

(01:11:55):
Thanks for being here, and I'llsee you next time for more
conversations that heal,empower, and celebrate your
hair.

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