Hair Loss and Restoration with Dermatologist, Dr. Saya Obayan, MD, MPH, FAAD

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to today's episode of Hair what I'm Saying.
I'm thrilled to introduce avery special guest, dr Saya
O'Brien, a board-certifieddermatologist and the founder of
Nature of Skin Dermatology inAustin Texas.
Dr O'Brien is re-owned for herexpertise in treating hair and
skin conditions, particularlythose affecting people of color,
with a holistic andpersonalized approach, she has

(00:25):
transformed the lives ofcountless patients by addressing
issues like hair loss,hyperpigmentation and other
complex dermatological concerns.
Not only is Dr Obayan highlyrespected in her field, but her
work has also directly impactedmy own clients, helping them
regain confidence througheffective hair restoration
treatments.

(00:45):
Her dedication to craftingtailored solutions for every
individual truly sets her apart.
Today, we'll dive into herjourney as a dermatologist, the
science behind hair loss andrestoration, and her expert
advice on maintaining healthyhair and scalp.
Welcome to the Hair what I'mSaying podcast.
I'm your host, kenetra Stewart.
Today we have Dr Saya Obayan,of Nature of Skin, located in

(01:08):
Austin Texas, joining us.
A dermatologist a bombdermatologist, may I add.
How?

Speaker 2 (01:15):
are you today?
I'm doing great today.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
No thank you, for it's an honor to have you on the
show.
Thank you, as stated, you havehelped so many of my clients
restore their hair loss, and I'mjust happy to meet you.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
I'm so happy to be here, and thank you so much for
sending your clients too.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Absolutely.
I always, especially if I can'thelp and I know someone that
can help, I'm going to push themout right here and it feels
good to you know, have someoneand know someone that can help,
because you hate feelinghelpless.
I know, you know, when it'sbeyond your expertise and you
have no one that you can justrefer out, you feel so helpless,

(01:56):
Absolutely.
And then it becomes thisextensive Google search of you
know of no end.
Yeah At all, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's helpful.
Sometimes you find someone butyou don't know too much about
them.
I've been in Austin for 10years now, oh wow, and so I've
been treating hair loss inAustin for 10 years.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, this is a great place to treat hair loss.
It is.
I know the clientele, themarket out here.
You know the demographic area,specifically for black women too
, it's really hard to find a, adermatologist that can cater to.
You know our specific hair loss, even skin needs, you know.

(02:39):
So it felt good to find you.
Thank you, franella.
Shout out to Franella.
Thank you, franella.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Shout out to Franella , franella's the reason.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Thank you, franella, we miss you.
Yeah, we do.
Can you start telling us alittle bit about your background
and how you, you know, became adermatologist?
Sure.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Well, I was born in Nigeria Okay, in Lagos, nigeria
and immigrated here with myfamily when I was about eight
years old, lived in Atlanta,lived in DC, lived in Detroit oh
my, you've been travelingeverywhere, everywhere.
My mother's a physician as well.
She's a PM&R physician, oh wow.
And so she really got meinterested in medicine in the

(03:21):
first place, in medicine in thefirst place.
When we were about 12, 13 yearsold, I used to spend time in
the hospital with my mom becausewe couldn't afford babysitters.
She was in residency.
She got divorced from my dad,really yeah, so y'all were
living there.
We lived at the hospital, so allthe residents took us under

(03:41):
their wings.
They showed us to patient rooms, they would talk to us about
medical things, they gave metextbooks and I fell in love
with medicine.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
That was such a great gift.
Yes, you know, even throughsome of the, you know,
unfortunate you gained a lot offortune, absolutely.
You know, oh my goodness,that's amazing yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
How old were you?
I was about between the ages of11 and 13.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Okay, and you had siblings too.
I do Okay, and so they also hadthat same experience with you
as well.
They sure did, oh my goodness,yeah, are you the oldest,
youngest.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
One of the oldest, so I have a twin sister.
I have two younger sisters, youhave a twin.
I have a twin.
Oh my goodness, oh wow.
But she said medicine is notfor her.
She does social media marketing.
She's launching a reallyamazing inclusive dating app
called Cupid AI.
Oh wow.
So she's in the middle of doingthat, she lives in Puerto Rico.
She's fabulous.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh, shout out to her, she's fabulous.
Yes, oh man, my sister Sola, Ilove you.
Sola.
Oh, my goodness, social mediamarketing.
She's creating a dating app.
She is.
Oh, wow, how is that going forher?

Speaker 2 (04:53):
I think it's a lot of work.
You know there's a lot offunding and angel investors she
has to talk to, but I thinkshe's finally done with the
prototype and I hope that shecomes to South by Southwest next
year.

Speaker 1 (05:05):
Oh, to like promote.
Oh, my goodness, that's my hope.
Yeah, yeah, that would be greatfor her.
That's going to Do they haveany dating apps out there on the
extent that she's creating withAI?
No, I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (05:18):
No, this was like I've never heard of it, yep, and
the technology is patented, soshe's the only one that can you
go, girl she like, because thisis mine.
Yes, ai, it's the next thing,it's the next big thing, right,
I love that.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
Yeah, it is ai social media, all of this.
Absolutely it's a great umindustry to tap into.
For sure it's not goinganywhere.
I know there's a scare abouttiktok, but'm like I don't
believe TikTok is going anywhere.
Yeah, it's too big, you know, Ijust don't see it.
But we'll see, but I just don'tsee it.

(05:53):
What are the different types ofhair loss and how can someone
identify the signs of each?

Speaker 2 (06:00):
Okay, so there are two large categories of hair
loss.
Right, there's non-scarringhair loss and then there's
scarring hair loss.
Okay, so non-scarring hair lossis hair loss that can happen
where it could be reversible.
So things like female patternhair loss we also call that
androgenic alopecia Things liketraction alopecia, which is from

(06:22):
like braids and weaves youprobably you've seen some people
to me for that all the time Alot of those Also reversible.
But when it comes to thescarring hair losses, those tend
to be more permanent.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
They tend to have a little bit of a longer course
than non-scarring hair loss.
So they start out feeling likeitchiness in the scalp, soreness
, tenderness, sometimes littlebumps in the scalp and then,
when the inflammation heals, thehair follicles permanently fall
out and they don't grow back in.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Oh, okay, and how did you describe that?
I know that's scarring, yes,and what else is that associated
with?
While you know, while it'sscarring, is that genetic
Sometimes?

Speaker 2 (07:10):
it is.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Sometimes it's genetics right.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
If it's not genetics.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
What is it Like?
What can cause scarring?

Speaker 2 (07:16):
Absolutely.
You know, I think at the end ofthe day we don't have one solid
answer for this yet.
Okay, when it comes to certainconditions, scarring conditions,
things like CCCA, lpp these arevery long words that basically
mean you have small areas ofscarring scattered on your scalp
, that's LPP.
Then when they start tocoalesce or turn into a large

(07:38):
area at the center of the scalp,that's called CCCA.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
So that's central centrifugal cicatricial alopecia
scarring at the center of yourscalp all the medical terms they
need to abbreviate.
Girl, you gotta go to school tolearn, oh, my gosh.
And then also for y'all toremember these words, then you
gotta spell these words and thenyou gotta know what they are
the, the structure, the function.

(08:02):
It's like my goodness.
And then explain it toeverybody in a way that they
understand it In a way that theyunderstand it.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
So, yeah, so those types of hair loss.
They have found a gene, afamilial gene, that can
contribute to having this typeof hair loss.
They used to call it hot combalopecia, but now we know it's
not related to hot comb or heat.

Speaker 1 (08:23):
Why was it called that before?

Speaker 2 (08:25):
Because a lot of women of color were getting it,
and so they were associating itwith our use of hot combs.
Oh wow, but there are plenty ofpatients I have who've never
used a hot comb in their life,who are showing up with CCCA.
So it's not only due to heat.
Some people think it's due tochemical relaxers and things of

(08:45):
that nature.
That hasn't been proven.
That has not been proven, okay,um, but what we think it is is
there's something calledfolliculitis, or inflammation
around your hair follicle, andwhen it happens over and over
and over again, it leads topermanent scarring.
Yeah, okay, so you think aboutyour scalp.
The way I explain it to mypatients that nature of skin is,
think about your scalp the wayI explain it to my patients at
Nature of Skin is.

(09:06):
Think about your scalp like abeautiful, fertile garden that's
growing all these beautifulplants.
The garden is your scalp and theflowers represent your hair.
So what happens withinflammation and scarring?
It's like pouring cement intothat garden.
The flowers fall out andthey'll try to grow back again,
but more cement is poured intothe garden and so, over and over

(09:28):
again, that beautiful,beautiful, fertile garden it
goes bare oh, that makes so muchsense.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
That's a good analogy to help the you know patient
understand.
Yeah, you know.
Opposed to it, um, that,because the terminology can be
wrapping your head around.
That it's enough, you know.
But I love how you, you know,are able to come up with your
own way of communicating to thepatient so that they understand
exactly you know what you aretrying to explain.

(09:55):
So it clicks, because it'sclicking for me now.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
So I'm like, oh, I can see, I can visually see now
you know.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
So I love that.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Look at you what are some of the most common types of
hair loss you see in yourpractice.
I think for sure um one of thetop ones that I see in my
practice is traction, traction.
So traction alopecia frombraids, from weaves, from just
leaving these hairstyles in tooquickly, too long can cause very

(10:25):
significant hair loss.
Okay, and then another reallycommon one is androgenic
alopecia.
Female, male pattern baldnessyes, which tends?
to be more hereditary, moregenetic.
Okay, it usually starts at thetemples and then spreads to the
top of the scalp with thinning.

Speaker 1 (10:41):
Oh so.
Is it at the temples and onlyat the crown, or does it spread
like it travels?
It tends to spread.
Oh, so does it.
Is it at the temples and onlyat the crown, or does it spread
like it travels?
It tends to spread.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
It tends to spread, so it'll start at the temples.
You'll start to see it first atthe temples and then it'll
start to involve the rest of thescalp, the top of the scalp.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
Okay, yeah, so those are the top two that you see.
How, how would you go abouttreating these?

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Those are the top two that you see.
How would you go about treatingthese?
So traction, alopecia it'sreally all about changing up
those hairstyles.

Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, I bet that's so hard, huh.
It's hard for them.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
I have to negotiate with my patients sometimes
because they'll come in and belike Dr Sia.
I have this cruise coming up.
I just want to do something.
I don't want to have to dealwith my hair.
I want to go into the ocean, Iwant to go swimming, and so then
we start the negotiations, likehow long are you going to have
it in here?
For you can't keep it in foreight weeks.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
So we usually, I just usually settle, oh gosh,
because I have it myself.
That's why I'm laughing, youknow, after they come see you.
And they come see you and I'llbe like, well, what did she say?
And they say, well, and I'mlike, well, go with whatever she
said.
I think they try to come to meto try to get another solution.
I'm like I'm going to go withthe doctor's orders.

(11:58):
I don't know what.
That's why I sent you to her.
I don't know what to do fromhere.
So that's why I'm laughing,because I'm like yes, yes, yes,
I mean I get it.

Speaker 2 (12:08):
It's like really inconvenient saying to have to
like put in a hairstyle thatcosts a few hundred dollars and
then take it right back out.
But I tell my patients that themost gentle hairstyles you'll
find are more like the crochets.
Yeah, because your hair isbraided down to your scalp.
You're not dealing with singlebraids Right which, because your
hair is braided down to yourscalp, you're not dealing with
single braids right, which putmore tension at your root and
then you can take it out in two,three weeks.

Speaker 1 (12:29):
Yeah, and it's not as expensive.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
And it's not as expensive.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
Yeah, so crochet.
So that's a good one that I cantell my clients yes, crochet,
crochet, okay, any other ones.
Flat twists are fantastic Flattwists but not cornrows.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
You can do cornrows, as long as they're loose, okay,
and you don't keep them in forlonger than I would say max four
weeks.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
Okay, that's not bad.

Speaker 2 (12:51):
I don't think so.
Yeah, I think that's a prettygood negotiation.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, it is Especially.
You know, get you a unit, throwit on there.
That even is more.
You know cost effective,exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Wigs are great.
I'm pro wigs.
Okay, wigs are a protectivehairstyle.
Right, take care of your hairunderneath it.
Keep it flat, twisted orloosely cornrowed, yeah, and
then you can rock your wig.

Speaker 1 (13:13):
I love this yeah, okay, okay, we getting solutions
here, y'all.

Speaker 2 (13:17):
Yes, always, always.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
What signs should someone look for to determine if
they are experiencing abnormalhair loss versus normal shedding
Sure?

Speaker 2 (13:27):
So classically in dermatology we say 100 hairs a
day.
Okay.
So if you're starting toexperience more than 100 hairs a
day, then it could mean thatsomething else is going on or
something else is underlying.
I would say in general thoughespecially for I think you know
people of color who might notshed quite as much as that Okay,
if you start to notice anuptick in general of your hair

(13:50):
loss, that's a good time to goin to get treatment.
If you start to noticesignificant thinning, especially
at your temples or anywhereelse on your scalp, that's a
good time to go and try to getahead of it.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, yeah, as soon as you notice some differences
in your hair, like just go getit checked out, get it checked
out, do you?
Um, are there any, uh, patientsthat have admitted that they
are afraid to come see you, likejust having to accept the
reality of what's going on, andthen, when they do come, it's
kind of like it's that it'ssevere.

(14:21):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
It's so like, oh, it's so difficult, because the
most common patient population Ihave like this are my patients
with locks, my patients withlocks.
Oh, talk about that, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:36):
Okay so like.

Speaker 2 (14:37):
I mean, you know you're investing years, decades,
into your hair.
Yes, and you're proud of it andyou love it.

Speaker 1 (14:46):
It's a journey for locks and then it starts falling
out.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
So a lot of my patients with locks take a long
time to come into the officebecause you know they don't want
to be told that they will haveto cut their locks.
Right Makes sense.
So my patients with the reallyreally long, really heavy locks
I do tend to recommend that theycut it because all of that
weight is pulling at the hairfollicle and as the hair thins

(15:12):
the base of the lock getssmaller and smaller and smaller.
And then eventually falls outExactly and thicker at the
bottom.

Speaker 1 (15:20):
Oh, and that's the weight from the lock.
That's like pulling at thatfollicle exactly oh, so when you
advise them to cut it, what dothey say?

Speaker 2 (15:31):
oh it's, it is.

Speaker 1 (15:33):
It's pretty traumatic experiences, yeah can you
imagine, because it's a journeyyou know for most.
Yeah, you know patients cry.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
I've had patients want to negotiate kind of like
okay, can I still keep it thislength?
Can I do this, can I do that?
I've had some patients who'veembraced it and just gone
completely.
You know, short, afro, naturalhairstyles, dyed it, you know,
and look great.
But it can take a little while.
Once you've had that hairstylefor decades, that's your

(16:05):
signature hairstyle, right, itcan take a while to accept it.

Speaker 1 (16:08):
Yeah, and so once they do remove their locks, then
they start treatment with you,because there's no point in
doing treatment if you're goingto hold on to the locks, because
the problem is still just goingto.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
So listen, I meet my patients where they are Good
yeah, it's hard, you know.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Yeah, you know I could see the journey being
really hard for them to like notmove forward with the treatment
because of what they have togive up.
I know yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
So I'll start treatment.
You know, I'll start thingslike topical steroids,
injectable steroids Ooh, I know,listen, it's nobody's favorite,
yeah, but it's five treatmentsonce a month for five months and
that really helps to stop theinflammation.
That cement continuouslypouring in the garden will slow
down, and so you can retain moreof your hairs.

(16:54):
And then things like oralminoxidil, Rogaine, topical
Rogaine I compound like fivedifferent ingredients together,
like Latisse, the eyelash grower, topical finasteride.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Do you make these products?

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I send it to a compounding pharmacy and they
make it for my patientsspecifically.

Speaker 1 (17:12):
Oh, my gosh.
That's why you have all thesegirl clients that are like
restoring their hair loss.
Yeah, oh, my the science behindit all that you've
intentionally taken uponyourself to like really learn
how can we reverse this?
Yes, oh, am yes so impressed.
Oh, thank you.

(17:34):
Okay, so you send it off to and, like girl, you gotta walk me
through this.
Like, come on, tell me somemore.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
So when a patient comes in to see me at nature of
Skin, the first thing I do is gothrough their history right,
like how long has the hair lossbeen going on for?
Are you noticing it when you'restyling versus when you're
shampooing?
Do you have any type ofgenetics, your family history?
And then we go into kind oflike stress, because cortisol,

(18:03):
the stress hormone, canfacilitate or increase hair loss
.
So we got to get some stressmanagement on board.
I usually do that withsupplements and things like
discussing mindfulness andmeditation, and then from there
we're talking about potentiallydoing a biopsy to confirm what
the diagnosis is.
So if it's something likescarring hair loss, I'm going to

(18:24):
almost always do a biopsy.
Sometimes I found discoid lupuswhen I'm not looking for
discoid lupus.
So you just really never knowwhat's going on at the level of
the skin.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
I didn't even know you could find it in your
practice.
Yep, OMG, I'm like you got toget some blood drawn.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
And I do labs too.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
I check your thyroid, your vitamin d, I check your
anemia.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
I check your iron ferritin, sometimes copper.
Sometimes I check your hormonesyour testosterone, your
estrogen, your progesterone.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
I'm checking all these things my goodness yes I
am just loving this.
Oh my, I had no idea.
You know the extent that youyou know practice in order to
help your clients and I'm likethis is why you have so many
great results like so many goodturnovers.
Thank you.
And they're so happy, like I'mso happy you found her.

(19:21):
I'm like Franella found her.
I thank God for Franella, youknow, because I had no idea.
You know that there was a blackdermatologist around here.
Yeah, I do have a questionabout that.
Is the approach different foryou?
Know, people of color opposedto you know, european clients?
Is it different for me?

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, no, no, it's not.
I practice based on thediagnosis that I'm treating.
So some of the treatment plansthat I'll come up with might be,
for instance, I might do morelike an oil-based topical
steroid for someone with like anatural, like curly, kinky hair.
Then I might do more of like awater-based solution for someone
with straight hair.
So there's a little finesse inthe treatment plans that we're

(20:05):
doing, but essentially it'sgoing to be the same thing for
both groups of people.
We want to stop inflammation,grow the hair.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
Because my clients, whenever they've tried
dermatologists in the past thatwere white, they just never had
success.
So I'm trying to understand isthe approach differently?

Speaker 2 (20:22):
I think the approach might be different.
I think really what it has todo with is training, residency
training.
So I was in a verycomprehensive residency training
.
I was trained by an amazingdermatologist.
Her name is Lynn Goldberg,she's out of Boston University,
okay, and she's also apathologist.
So not only would we look athair in the clinic, we would

(20:42):
look at hair under themicroscope, omg, and develop all
these treatment plans.
So I really learned from herand from there I just kept
getting continuing educationbased on what I was seeing, what
my patients were asking for.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
Oh, okay, so it's all about continuing education in
everything let's be honest, youhave to, yeah, everything like
let's be honest, you know, youhave to, yeah, and so, um,
that's why I was excited thatthere was a black dermatologist
in the area, because it justseemed as though my clients
could not have success unless itwas somebody black, you know.
So, um, yeah, I just felthelpless.

(21:18):
You know, before I saw you, Iwas like I don know, and they
were prescribing, like pink orthis blue shampoo for clients
this pink or blue shampoo.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Ketoconazole.
What is that?

Speaker 1 (21:31):
It's like the most recommended, the most prescribed
.
Is it over the?

Speaker 2 (21:36):
counter or is it prescribed?
So yes, over, the counter iscalled Nizarel, so it's like a
1% and then the prescriptionstrength is 2% ketoconazole.
It's basically the same thing,but the reason I get so many
complaints about it I stoppedprescribing it really is because
it dries out curly hair.
Even people with Latinas, curlyhaired European descent people

(22:00):
all are complaining about dryhair, so that's no longer my
go-to.
I rarely prescribe that for thescalp now.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yeah, yeah, because my clients would bring it in and
after I would shampoo I'd belike, oh my goodness, like your
hair feels so brittle, like Iwant to follow up with something
moisturizing afterwards.
But I used to be so confusedbecause I'm like, is it going to
mess up the treatment?
Yeah, you know that the doctorhas prescribed for my client.
I used to be like I don't knowwhat to do.

(22:29):
I don't know what to do, butwe're going to figure it out.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
Pantazol is a mess, so I love the shampoos that are
more zinc-based.
Now they have zinc purithioneas an ingredient.
Selenium sulfide is another one.
Some of my patients don't wantto be washing their hair all the
time, so we use sprays andlotions instead of shampoos.
Yeah, so there's a lot ofdifferent things.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
Y'all better be getting this information.
How important is earlyintervention when it comes to
hair loss?

Speaker 2 (23:01):
It is of the utmost importance.
I think of hair like spun gold,and once it starts to come out,
there's a chance that you mightnever get it back.
So the earlier you get totreatment, the more hair you'll
hold on to, and some of mypatients get scared of treating
with things like oral minoxidiland Rogaine.

Speaker 1 (23:21):
My hair started coming out.
I'm like what you need to do,Do everything.
Inject my head like what youneed to do, Do everything.

Speaker 2 (23:27):
Inject my head.
What do you need to do?
Spun gold.
So you know, I really have totalk to patients and talk to
them, negotiate with them aboutwhat they're willing to do.
Like I mentioned earlier,stress is a big component of
hair loss.
So during COVID, I was seeingmore hair loss than I'd ever
seen my entire career because ofthe stress, and so I started
getting into supplements andthings like ashwagandha, things

(23:49):
like probiotics, things liketurmeric.
How do we naturally lowerinflammation and stress in the
body?
And now I am embarking oncreating my own hair loss
formulation.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
Oh yeah, Do you have a name for it yet?

Speaker 2 (24:03):
My nature of skin hair loss formulation yes, rapid
hair growth formula.
When will this be available?
Likely within the next sixmonths to a year okay, yeah,
good yep, so check out ourwebsite, okay, shop
natureofskincom.
All right, and I'll see it onthere.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
Yeah, yes, okay that's some good stuff, okay,
and so these products will helpmaintain.
Okay, got you.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
And grow hair.
So, like there's so manydifferent ingredients that we're
just learning are helpful forgrowing hair Some of them are
from Ayurveda, indian medicine,some of them are from Eastern,
like Chinese, medicine there'san ingredient called amla that
can help to grow hair.
It's an Ayurvedic herb.
We already know about thingslike ashwagandha that can help

(24:48):
to reduce cortisol and help growhair.
That way, saw palmetto is awonderful ingredient for growing
hair.
Then you've got varangaraj,false daisy.
That's another great one forgrowing hair.
So what we're doing isbasically taking all of these
different ingredients that arein all these separate products
and putting it in one place.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
Okay.
Oh my goodness, I cannot.
You said six months to a year.
Six months to a year.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
I got to be on the lookout for that.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
I'll send you some samples.
Yes, please do.
I really appreciate it.
I'm buying some too, though,because I already believe in you
.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
I've seen what you can do.
Thank you, so I'm already acustomer, okay.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Are there over-the-counter products or
at-home treatments that yourecommend or discourage?

Speaker 2 (25:36):
It depends on for what issue, right?
Oh yeah, so we're talking abouthair loss Over-the-counter
products that I love for hairloss Minoxidil.
Okay, 5% People get scaredbecause you have to do it
forever.
Once you start, you can't stop.
Once you start, you can't stop.
Once you start, you can't stop,I wouldn't even care.
So desperate.
So I would say that if somebodystarts to notice hair thinning,

(25:59):
especially in that templefrontal scalp area, like I
mentioned before, that's areally good place to start.
But it's also important to justkind of go get your blood work
done.
Make sure it's not somethinginternal, like your thyroid,
your vitamin D levels or anemia.
Those are the main ones.
Other over-the-counter products.
I love one of my major go-tos.
If you come see me and you haveflaking scalp, itchy scalp,

(26:21):
dandruff, royal oils shampoo byhead and shoulders, moisturizing
anti-dandruff shampoo, okay,people love it.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
My patients love royal oils I'm glad you share
that because my daughter's she'sexperiencing dandruff right now
and she actually this morningshe woke up mad.
She was like I spent 30 minutesjust getting these flakes out
of my.
She has locks out of my locks.
So I went and purchased nioxin.
If that doesn't work, Ipurchased it today.
If that doesn't work, I'mdefinitely gonna try the royal

(26:53):
oil oil oil my head andshoulders.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
Yes, they also have a spray.
So if she doesn't want to bewashing her hair all the time,
get her the spray and she couldspray it in between her locks
okay, okay, okay, all right, gotthat.
And if it doesn't?

Speaker 1 (27:06):
work, send her on in.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
I'm happy to see her.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
Okay, are you familiar with Nioxin Mm-hmm?

Speaker 2 (27:11):
Okay, what do you think Over the counter?
I mean, honestly, I don'trecommend it very much.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Oh, come on, Tell me why.
Oh, I need to know thisinformation.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
I mean, it depends on what you're using it for, right
.
You're using it for dandruff,yes, so I haven't really seen a
lot of success with it.
I've honestly seen a little bitmore success with the old
school sulfur eight than I havewith like over the counter, like
nioxin.
So I like dandruff,anti-dandruff solutions that are
like zinc based.
I love selenium sulfide, thoseareide, those are great.

(27:48):
Sulfur based is also good forthe people who want to stay kind
of holistic and natural.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
okay, sulfur based washes and soaps are good too
okay, yeah, oh my goodness,because, um, I have an older uh
colleague, I guess you can say,and she does not recommend
nioxin.
She just feel like it's wellfor my daughter.
She's like maybe once she getsolder, but not now, because her

(28:10):
scalp is so premature, you know,for those reasons.
But she didn't say necessarilydidn't work.
But I did notice we got thescalp recovery serum for my
daughter.
It worked in the past but thistime it's not working.
So that's why I went back andgot the shampoo and the
conditioner.
Interesting, I'm like maybe Ineed a pair of these together to

(28:31):
see what works.
But if it don't work, I'm justgoing to go try to hit it.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
Try it.
What's the active ingredient inNioxin?

Speaker 1 (28:40):
I don't know yet because I've never really used
it.
So I just was going based offof a recommendation and then
when I was discussing it with mycolleague, she was just like no
, yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
And then I interviewed a trichologist and
she said yes good, I don't knowReally, I guess it depends on
the person.
I guess it do, I don't know.
I'll say two other things thatI tend to see flare, scalp,
dandruff, I don't know.
I'll say two other things thatI tend to see flare, scalp
dandruff.
One getting braids or justfreshly twisted locks.
Yeah, the tension tends totrigger inflammation and the
inflammation shows up.
It's dandruff, okay.

(29:14):
And then two people who areeating a lot of sugar-based
foods.
So if you're eating a lot ofcarb-based foods, if you're
eating a lot of sugary snackssodas, candies and cakes those
folks do tend to flare more too.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
She's been eating a lot of that stuff lately.
That's probably her problem.
She was doing well for like, Ithink, roughly like six months
and it just flared back up maybelike a month ago.
But I know and I told her thatwas around the holidays, yeah,
and she, ever since she gotthose braces removed, she just

(29:47):
be going to town without typesof sugar.
Just girl, like, golly Like,should we put the braces back on
so you can practice good oralhygiene?
This girl, her oral hygiene isgreat, but she do like sugar.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
We'll see Around the holidays.
I think we all have some sugarissues.
I know I certainly do.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
I like me some pumpkin pie.
The braces are saving me rightnow.
I used to be a big candy person.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
I am too yeah but these braces and the way how
stuff like the wrap, is soaggravating.
I'm just like no If it gives meproblems eating it.
I don't eat it now.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
So I'm more for, like mashed potatoes, mac and cheese
, anything mushy.
Okay, so I don't require a lotof chewing and I can just
swallow and move on.
Oh my goodness, it's ahy.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Okay, so it don't require a lot of chewing and I
can just swallow and move on.
Oh my goodness, it's a struggle.
Wow, I can't wait to get themoff so I can eat.
When are you getting them off?

Speaker 1 (30:48):
They don't know.
Yet I have this.
They say unique case, sothey're even documenting it.
Oh wow.
Yeah, so unique and it'sbecause, like um, one of my
laterals didn't grow in, sothey're having to, like,
recreate and shape my anatomy.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
Oh wow so yeah, so they're like extensive surgery
oh yeah, I've had three oralsurgeries so far.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, I have one more , oh my goodness yeah, but
before it is you, you reallycouldn't even tell it was just
um, because my teeth startedslanting to cover that space, so
you couldn't even tell thatthat tooth did not grow in.
Yeah, wow.
And then, when they startedmoving my teeth around, I'm like
, oh, my goodness, it's soprominent, can y'all please fix

(31:37):
this?
Can y'all please hurry up andfix this problem?
So, but he said I think umseptember he'll be done with
everything.
Um, well, the oral surgery, ohyeah, but as far as the braces,
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Okay, I'm just praying I'm just taking it up
with god well, positive isyou're staying away from sugar.

Speaker 1 (31:59):
Yeah that is yeah, I have been eating so much better
since I've had braces, and theortho even told me that he was
like at least you'll behealthier, because I'm telling
you a lot of foods that youprobably like to eat.
You're not going to want to eatthem.
It's going to give you so manyproblems and he was not lying

(32:21):
Like I just like nope, I don'twant to have nothing to do with
it.
It's a gift and a curse, Iguess.
What role does diet and overallhealth play in maintaining
healthy hair, preventing hairloss?
If you want to elaborate andextend more, we would love to
hear.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
That's an excellent question, because that nature of
skin, the whole ethos orphilosophy behind my practice,
is that we are approaching skinconditions and hair loss in a
holistic way, and so that's whyI do talk about things like what
we're taking in, what we'reconsuming.
That's why we do talk aboutthings like stress, because
managing those two things canactually also help improve not

(32:57):
only our hair loss but just ouroverall health and wellness.
So I always talk to my patientsabout anti-inflammatory
protocol and staying away frominflammatory foods.
So inflammatory foods are goingto be absorbed into the body.
They're going to be seen asglucose, as sugar.
They're going to increasecertain levels of other hormones

(33:18):
that then, can facilitate hairloss, and so things like sugar,
white flour, refined starches,animal dairy, so milk, cheese
from animals, sometimes even redmeat and saturated fats or

(33:40):
fried foods, those are the mainfive.

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Oh, I got a lot of reading, girl.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
Ooh, my food chart is terrible, because part of it,
too, is we know that we havethis whole thing called a
gut-brain axis, and our gut iswhere a lot of really good
neurotransmitters are produced.
It's bacteria produced, I think, about 80% of the serotonin in

(34:08):
our bodies.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
Okay, yes, and they're all in our gut.
And so what happens?
When we're eating more of theseinflammatory foods, these
sugars, these dairies and allthat is, we literally change the
bacteria that grow in our gutand they start producing other
chemicals that are not sohelpful for us and other things
that are cycling back to thebrain and being seen as
inflammatory.
Cycling into the skin, causingacne.

(34:31):
Cycling to the hair, causinghair loss, oh OMG.
Cycling to the brain, causingbrain fogginess, mood issues,
things of that nature, causingbloating in the stomach.
So all of those things, all ofthose things are connected.
Our body is a system that workstogether, and so what we put
into our mouths, what we putinto our minds, can actually

(34:53):
show up on our hair, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
It's so sensitive.
Hair is Even the skin.
It responds and reacts toeverything that's going on in
your body.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
It really does.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
And I always tell my clients if you are experiencing
unexpected hair loss, go getblood work.
You just never know what it is.
That's really important.
That's a really good point.
Yeah, it is, Especially if youdon't get chemical services and
you don't even wear braids.
I always be like check yourblood work One of my clients.

(35:26):
For three months she was likemy hair is thinning, I don't
know what's going on.
I told her go get some bloodwork because I don't know your
scalp looks great.
You know your hair is growingbut it is thinner and I think it
took about three months for herto get that blood work.
But then she brought up excuseme, brought up Ozempic and I was

(35:46):
like more than likely.
They might be contributing.
I said that's probably wherethe issue is.
Yeah, but I think alsoencouraging the client to go get
blood work.
I think that's hard for thembecause they don't want to know
what if it is something you knowsomething bigger than my hair,
you know like lupus you know,because I do wonder why don't

(36:08):
you go get the blood work?
Let's see what's going on so wecan hurry up and give you know,
provide a solution.
And I do wonder, like what isit?

Speaker 2 (36:22):
You know I have to like listen, go get the blood
work done.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
You know, I told her three months ago yeah, it's just
like I still haven't done it,and I said why?
She's like, I don't know, Ijust haven't done it, I'll do it
.
Since you are a doctor, I'mlike do you believe it's
something emotionally, you know,triggering?

Speaker 2 (36:35):
yeah, I mean absolutely when you stated that
earlier.

Speaker 1 (36:39):
I'm like.
Now it's making sense to me whysome of my clients will not go
do it sometimes, whenever Irecommend it, it is, I think
such a deep.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
I think there's just been a lot of mistrust of the
medical community.
Yeah, sometimes within ourcommunities.
Right, that's a big part of it,that's historical.
So it's like am I going to betaken, am I going to be seen?
Am I going to be takenseriously?
Am?

Speaker 1 (37:04):
I going to be brushed off.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
I have so many patients that come in and say I
went to this office and theyjust brushed me off.
They said I would just have todeal with this for the rest of
my life.
And that was 20 years ago whenthey could have actually done
something about their hair loss.
Oh, I can see that you know,mm-hmm.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Yep, absolutely that's a big part of it.
Yeah, and I didn't even thinkto that extent.
So I'm glad you did bring thatup, because I'm thinking it's
maybe just a health concern thatthey don't want to know about
that.
They have to now adjust to adifferent lifestyle, but when
you brought that up, that isdefinitely a great POV, for sure

(37:40):
.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Mm fed up.
Yeah, that is definitely agreat pov, for sure.
There's definitely that there'sfear, right like what are we
gonna find out?
You know what could be?

Speaker 1 (37:48):
wrong with me?

Speaker 2 (37:48):
I don't really want anything to be wrong with me,
yeah there's that, there's afear that they're gonna
potentially like be ashamed.
You know, I think there's a lotof shame that comes in when we
start losing our hair you knowAbsolutely.
A lot of patients think it'stheir fault.
So there's that wrapped up inthere and I have to really

(38:10):
explain that this is geneticallyinherited or this is related to
your thyroid disease, right?
And if we can get ahead of that, then we can retain some of
these hairs, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Yeah, yeah, all righty.
So now we're going to shift to,I guess, tension alopecia and
hairstyling.
Okay For people experiencingtension alopecia.
What are some of the key causesand how can they prevent
further damage?

Speaker 2 (38:34):
Number one is not doing back-to-back tension
hairstyles.
So don't braid your hairback-to-back.
Don't do your full weavesback-to-back.
Make sure you're constantlyswitching out your hairstyles.
That's really the mostimportant piece.
Find some good, protectivehairstyles you could rock like
at least 50% of the year.

(38:55):
Yes, whether it's a wig,whether it's flat twists,
whether it's loose cornrowswhatever you want to do.
Twist outs are beautiful andgreat, yeah, so just find some
hairstyles to kind of likerotate through.
Yeah, you can still have, youknow, some braids from time to
time, some weaves from time totime, keeping them in a shorter

(39:18):
amount of time.
This is really important.
So I tell my patients fourweeks yeah get four weeks with
this and then switch tosomething it's about balance,
right?

Speaker 1 (39:27):
yeah, yeah, because constantly back, you know,
constantly you know,incorporating those uh
hairstyles, that causes so muchtension.
It's like that follicles neverget a break.
You know a break.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
I mean, you see, I'm sure you see it yeah, all the
time you see a lot of tractionright oh my goodness what do you
tell them, like, how do you getthem to stop doing it?

Speaker 1 (39:46):
girl.
How do I encourage theseclients to stop?
It depends on the client.
You know, um, some clients theyreceive it and they will stop.
But then I have others who arejust so afraid of, you know,
they just don't know how to dotheir natural hair, so they
steer away from it.

(40:07):
You know, they will wear thosestyles back to back, right, and
I think, just instilling thefear.
Honestly, you know I hate to gothat route, yeah, but I have to
.
You know, I have to present theworst case scenario in order
for them to move forward with.
You know what I'm, you knowadvising them to do.

(40:29):
And sometimes it works,sometimes it don't.
Sometimes I never see themagain because it's not what
they're not.
They don't want to hear that.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Right and.

Speaker 1 (40:37):
I understand that too , you know, don't want to hear
that right, and I understandthat too, you know.
But, um, I feel as though if,if you really want a solution
and if you really want to moveforward, whatever that goal is
that you have in mind foryourself, yeah, if you truly
want to accomplish that goal,then you have to take those
sacrifices.
That's just life period, youknow, in order to reach the

(40:58):
bigger goal, it comes with somesacrifices that we all don't
like to.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
We don't like to do you know it's the truth.

Speaker 1 (41:06):
And then I try to even use that too.
You know, like, whatever goalsthat you have for yourself right
now, you know, you know theycome with these small sacrifices
, sacrifices that we justabsolutely hate to even, you
know, walk ourselves through.
But it's going to be for thebigger goal and that's what's
most important.
And it's for a short term.

(41:26):
You know, I try to help themalso understand this is for a
short amount of time.
That feels like forever, youknow, but once you get there,
you can be like it really wasn'tthat bad.
It really.
Once you reach the goal, youknow it's worth it, you know so.
Just, you reach the goal, yeah,you know it's worth it.
You know so.
Just, constantly consulting,encouraging, trying not to be
discouraging, but sometimes theyhear you differently too.

(41:48):
You know you have no control ofit.
You know so sometimes, uh, onlya very small percentage don't
come back.
And then you have some that arelike, yeah, I'm gonna do this,
I don't care, whatever it takes,I'm gonna do it right.
I'm sure you probably see thatall the time yeah yep, you have
the solution right there.
All you gotta do is meet mehalfway come on, come on.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, I see, I see the resistance all the time.
It's kind of like you know,somebody is on like trying to
get on a weight loss journey,right, and they know they have
to do certain things to get tothe end goal of that journey.
Yeah, same thing with hair loss, it sure is.
Once it started, it's a journeyto kind of get you to your goal
, and you must be willing to putin the work and put in the

(42:33):
effort and sometimes thediscomfort of getting to that
goal.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
And it's very uncomfortable.
And it's also the uncertaintybecause I've had clients to say
what if it don't work?
And I'm like it's going to work.
I've seen it work.
You know.
The only time it won't work isif I need to refer you to a
doctor on my end.
You know when I can help you, Ican help you, but other than
that, I'm going to refer you outand I'm going to be completely

(42:58):
transparent about my you knowexpertise.
Whether I can help you or not,you know.
But if I'm 100% sure, all yougot to do is just take my hand.
Yeah, and let me guide youalong the way you know.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
That's very sweet.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
We're on the same team.
Yeah, we are for sure we're inthis together yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Is it necessary to stay away from certain
hairstyles like braids, flattwists or foundation styles for
wigs during treatment.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yes, and I'll tell you why.
It's because every single timeI see my patients, we take
photos, and it's the same photosevery time.
We take a front facing photo,sides, top, back.
And when people have extensionsin their hair, I cannot
objectively tell you whetheryour hair is improving or not.
And not only that if we have todo steroid injections, I can't

(43:53):
see the areas that I need toinject, so you're not getting
the amount of care that I wouldnormally provide for you,
because extensions are coveringup your scalp.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
So will they arrive that way?

Speaker 2 (44:08):
I've had to tell some patients, listen, I can't do
your hair at all.
So sometimes they come in withthe piece I don't know what it's
called when you do the net.
Yeah, the sew-in with the netyou can't see anything.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
yeah, you can't see anything, anything I have to
reschedule them.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
I tell them I can't.
There's nothing I can do todayto keep using your topicals,
keep taking your pills.
If you're on pills, and thenlet's schedule you back from
when you have those out of yourscalp, because otherwise I can't
help you today.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
No, at all.
So what about, um, when they'retrying to negotiate?
Okay, we started treatment,they come back.
You know, you rescheduled them.
We started treatment.
They come back, their hair isfree and, um, you start the
treatment and then later on theydo want to get those braids.
So they can get the braids, aslong as they're loose, in the

(44:56):
flat twist styles.
Okay, just want to make sure,because I need this advice from
my clients.
I'm like, okay, I heard from adoctor, you can do this now,
because I just want to make surethat they stay the course and
make sure that they get thoseresults that they are seeking,

(45:17):
and I don't want to be the oneto steer them in the wrong
direction and then mess up theentire treatment plan that you
have organized for them.
You know, okay, I just want tomake sure I'm hearing that
correctly.
Short term.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Loose braid, loose cornrows, flat toes are okay.
Yeah, the.
I think the safest hairstyle ifyou're going on vacation is a
cute crochet that you take outafter two to four weeks.
Yeah, okay, yep.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Got that one.
How can someone balance theirlove for protective styling
while experiencing hair loss?
The ones that aren't going onvacation and you know that, love
to keep their hair protectedbecause they don't want to, you
know have to manage theirnatural hair.
How do you find a balance forthose during treatment?

Speaker 2 (46:02):
That is interesting, you know, I think a lot of my
patients.
I have a handful of patientswho stay in wigs Okay, Like they
and they don't really havesignificant hair loss, they're
just have a little bit ofthinning.
But they're just morecomfortable putting the hair
away because then that way theydon't have to take care of it as
much yes.

(46:25):
And I'm actually fine with that.
So what they usually do is I'llhave them.
I always like my patients towash their hair before they come
, at least a few days before, sothat I can really get a close
look at the scalp, I can partthe hair.
I really get in there.
I'm looking for inflammationaround the follicles, I'm
looking for flakiness.
So my patients who keep theirhair braided up underneath wigs
all they do is just take it outa few days before they come with

(46:46):
it to the practice.
Then right after they leave,they do their thing again so
that they can keep wearing theirprotective styles and I don't
have too much of a problem withthat.
I know there's kind of like anold wives tale like you should
let your scalp breathe and allthose kinds of things.
I know there's kind of like anold wives tale like you should
let your scalp breathe and allthose kinds of things.
I find that the scalp getsoxygen through wigs pretty
easily.
It's a net and there's a lot ofair, kind of like rotating in

(47:07):
that area.
I tell my patients always neversleep in your wigs.
Do not glue your pieces downunless you have some kind of
important event and you want todo that one time.
Take it off the next day, right, because the glue itself can
cause the hair to fall outabsolutely yes, especially um

(47:27):
for the, um the frontal wigs,whenever they glue those lace
fronts you'll notice likethere's a.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
The perimeter from ear to ear is, yeah, gone.
Is that scarring or is thattension?
What type of alopecia is?

Speaker 2 (47:40):
it.
I would say it's kind of morein the traction family, because
what's happening is that glue isgetting pulled off over and
over and over again, and alongwith the glue is going to come
some hair.
And the more often you'reinstalling these wigs and taking
them off over and over againthe more hair you're going to
lose.
Okay, so you'll see a lot ofactresses, hollywood stars,

(48:02):
performers who wear installedwigs.
They don't have a hairlineanymore.
They don't.

Speaker 1 (48:07):
No, yeah, and it's really smooth, as if, like you
know, like if you have like aand you can correct me if I'm
wrong it's like it feels like anactive follicle because there's
some texture there, but what?

Speaker 2 (48:22):
I've noticed is there's a smooth.
What is it?
The hair is completely gone.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
Is that scarring it's ?

Speaker 2 (48:25):
sometimes it's scarring if it's flat and shiny.
So yeah, flat and shiny yeahshininess is scarring okay yeah,
okay, not to be confused withanother type of hair loss called
frontal fibrosing alopecia okaythat causes scarring throughout
the front of the scalp and thatis an inflammatory condition.
Okay, right, but then you canalso have trauma to the scalp

(48:46):
that causes scarring too, withthe bonding glues and things
like that.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Okay, ooh, child, I'm in class.
You hear me?
Oh, my goodness, I guess you'veanswered this one too, where we
say do you have any advice forstylists on creating styles that
minimize the risk of hairdamage?

Speaker 2 (49:06):
yeah, definitely I mean, it sounds like you do a
really thorough job, you know,counseling patients, making sure
that they're not keeping theirhairstyles in too long.
talking about tension, um,that's really the one of the
most important pieces is beingable to counsel your patient,
your clients, on how often theyshould be getting this hairstyle
.
When you're starting to seesigns yourself of hair thinning

(49:29):
at the temples especiallythinking about traction and
telling them to take breaks, saylet's switch to this.
You know less low tensionhairstyle.
Let's switch to something likeflat twist.
Why don't we switch tosomething like a twist out?
Yeah, you know or blow out.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
Yeah, I can hear like that for a while.
Yeah, that that one right there.
None of my clients want to rockthat, blow out.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
I mean we're all in Texas.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Yeah, it's like.
It's like a press.
I have maybe one or two.

Speaker 2 (50:01):
They'll come and they'll be like, leave it fro,
like I'm good to go, they'llrock that fro.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
It looks so good too.
But, not a lot of them.
They'll be like I'm not dealingwith this when I leave you.
What am I supposed to do withit?

Speaker 2 (50:11):
You turn it into a twist out.
Add some foam, add some pearlstyling cream.
Yeah, Turn it into a twist out.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
I think the maintenance, you know, is a lot
for especially my clients.
It's just so much maintenance,so much upkeep, so many things
to remember, so much informationout here on social media too.
You know whether it's greatinformation, whether it's
misleading, you know, and I Ibelieve there's a sense of over
overwhelming too.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
It is overwhelming it's a lot of information and
from all these different sources, you don't really know who to
trust.
Yeah, you know, I think we allhave this little person inside
of us with so much wisdom.
I think a lot of us know whenthese things are starting to
happen, whether or not we chooseto listen is a different thing
entirely.

Speaker 1 (50:58):
That's right.
Ignoring, you know, not wantingto sit into the reality too,
you know that's true, I'm guiltyof some of it, aren't we all?
Aren't we not all?
Yes, indeed.
What myths about hair loss doyou often encounter with?

Speaker 2 (51:18):
your patients.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
Are there any?

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Myths about hair loss .
I think one of the most commonmyths that still comes up in my
practice today is people thinkthat if they cut their hair
it'll grow faster.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
That is such a myth.
It's the biggest myth ever.
Thank you, it's the biggestmyth, thank you.

Speaker 2 (51:40):
There's still people coming in thinking that they cut
they cut their hair, it'll growfaster.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
No, um I tell them what's happening is you are
removing your dead ends andyou're retaining length.
Exactly that's it, you know.
And now your hair is growing,you know, at a rate that seems
faster when you are just cuttingyour dead ends, and it's very
minimal now because you've beentaking care of your dead ends.
So now it just seems likeyou're holding on to so much

(52:07):
hair because you're getting ridof the dead ends now and then
they'd be like, oh, I'm likeyeah, but it ain't gonna help
your hair grow faster.
That's not biology, that's agood one.
I'm glad you brought that yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:19):
I'm shocked that it still comes up.
But it still comes up, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
It sure does yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:24):
Some people think that fleekiness of the scalp
dandruff is contagious, likethey could give it to somebody
else.
I've been asked that severaltimes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Are there any scalp conditions that are contagious?

Speaker 2 (52:39):
It's a fungal infection?
Okay, it can be.
You know like little kids inschool often get ringworm of the
scalp and they get thesecircles, these patches of hair
loss.
That can definitely go tosomebody else.
It's actually highly contagious.
Okay, you can also get it fromyour pets at home your dogs and
cats and things.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
Okay, okay, I'm glad you addressed that.
Okay, are there any other myths?

Speaker 2 (53:04):
There are a lot of things going on about things
like rice water.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
Oh, talk about the rice water girl.
Come on, Please tell them aboutthis rice water myth.

Speaker 2 (53:16):
So people think that using the rice water will help
their hair grow, and rice wateris not necessarily something
that helps your health grow.
It's more of a strengtheningthing.
So when we're reducing breakage, it's going to look like our
hair is growing because we'reretaining length.
But it has nothing to do withthe rice water making the hair
grow, and I'm sure you are.
You talk to so many peopleabout this.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
Yeah, but you know a lot of people still don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Because you can go on YouTube and it's still being
promoted, you know, as if it'sthis miracle hair.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
And, like you said, it's like a restorative.
Yes, it's not a hair growthproduct.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (53:52):
It's like a protein treatment.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Thank you, ma'am.
That's exactly what it is.
It's restoring lost protein.
That's it.
I love that.
Can hair restoration treatmentslike prp or hair transplants
work for everyone, or are therelimitations?
That is?

Speaker 2 (54:10):
a wonderful question, actually, it's.
One of my favorite things is umtaking clients, patients who
have hair loss and have triedall these different treatment
options for their hair loss andnothing's worked and doing
something like PRP.
So for PRP, platelet-richplasma is when we draw your
blood, we spin it down to theplatelet layer and then we

(54:32):
inject it back into your scalp.
And sometimes I'll combine thatwith things like microneedling,
which is a pen that has 36micropins in it, where I make
channels in the skin and then Idrizzle the PRP in, massage it
in as well as inject the PRP.
Yes, so it's like twotreatments in one.
Oh, I have had really goodsuccess with patients with early

(54:52):
scarring that have come anddone PRP, because PRP reduces
inflammation and grows hair atthe same time.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Oh, so those results are probably pretty quick.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Yes, yes, three treatments Takes three
treatments once a month forthree months and then usually by
that three-month period toabout six months, we're seeing
improvement.
Sometimes it's as soon as thesecond treatment, but I love
those treatments.
And I'm bringing on a newtreatment into the practice,
that's tattooing.
So I'm going to be tattooingmedications into people's scalp.

(55:26):
How do you do that?
I have a tattoo machine and Ihave a tattoo needle that
actually will draw up medicationinto it, and then I then tattoo
the medication into the scalpand that way you avoid systemic
side effects.
There's no side effects of themedications.
You do have to do it prettyregularly, like every month for

(55:46):
three to six months and thenevery quarter for maintenance.
But, there's no pills needed.

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Oh my, you are just so innovative.
I have never even heard of that.

Speaker 2 (56:01):
Is that a practice?
It's new.
It's a new thing, so I think itwas developed maybe about five
years ago.
Five to 10 years ago, I learnedabout it from a dermatologist
named Carlos Wambie, who'swildly innovative in the space
of dermatology.

Speaker 1 (56:14):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
And so it was developed by a Latin American
doctor I believe he's a hairtransplant surgeon and now we're
bringing it Carlos is bringingit into dermatology.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Oh, my God, isn't that cool.
This is amazing.
It is.
I mean, it's like all of thesemy clients.
They already have successstories with you but depending
on the client and what they needand whatever, I guess,
treatment that they're morecomfortable with, they have so
many options.
It's not like this one thing.
So I like that too, justknowing that they have so many

(56:46):
options that they can choosefrom, depending on, I guess, how
aggressive, how not aggressive,that they want to approach it.
So I'm like I didn't know therewere so many options.

Speaker 2 (56:59):
There are so many options.
There are so many options.
I think the first thing thatpeople say a lot of my patients
say when they come in is Ireally didn't know that there
were so many different ways totreat this hair loss.
I was told that there wasnothing I could do, and so it
just brings me great joy when Ican say hey, you can do one of
these five things.
We can start here.
You still got these four otheroptions.
We're going to work, worktogether.

(57:20):
It'll be a six month to oneyear thing, yeah, and we can
just kind of monitor yourprogress and work together.

Speaker 1 (57:26):
One thing my clients love about you is they um, you
start treatment same day.
Yep, they love that.
You know, um, that's the most I, that's the most feedback that
I received from them, that theylove them, like she was on it
day one, instead of let's seewhat this and this and this and
this, and they're like no, itwas like right in there.

(57:47):
Yeah, I love that too, becausenow you feel like you can really
step into that journey offixing whatever the cause is.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, that's the feedback I get all the time from
my clients.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
They be like she get right on yes, because guess what
Time is hair, the more we wait.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
The more hair we lose , the more hair we lose.
I'm on it Time is hair.
I love that.
What are some warning signsthat should prompt someone to
seek professional help for hairloss?

Speaker 2 (58:19):
That's a good one.
We talked about a little bit ofthat increase in hair shedding.
Yes, that's more common with,like the non-scarring hair
losses, visible thinning.
Okay, symptoms, so symptomaticscalp, whether it's itchy,
whether it's tender, whetherit's red, whether it's flaky,
those are really good signs tolook out for.

(58:40):
I think a lot of people knowwhen they're starting to have
hair thinning once it's veryvisible.
But not everybody is payingreally close attention to the
hair in the beginning, so it canbe easy to miss it.

Speaker 1 (58:53):
Yeah, it can be easy to miss it.
I don't, yeah.
Yeah, because it's like agradual thing.
It would be different if it alldecided like, oh, we're going
to all fall out tonight, but Ibet it's like hair strands just
at a time and different placeson the head Is that how it works
, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Yeah, and that's probably why you can't see it.
So a lot of people say, oh, youknow, my partner said this, or
like my friend saw that, orwhatever, so, or whatever.
So, sometimes it's someone elsehaving to see that change to
help them come into the office.

Speaker 1 (59:23):
Yeah, yeah, I referred one of my clients to
you.
She was experiencing somethinning in the crown and you
helped her and she didn't evenknow she had been getting braids
and no one told her.
And that was her first timecoming to me and I told her.
I was like I don't know ifyou've ever, if you've noticed
or anyone around you has noticed, but you have some thinning in

(59:46):
your crown and she had no idea,yeah, and then I gave her your
information and she startedcoming to you and she good to go
now.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
Well, isn't she lucky that she came to see you,
though?

Speaker 1 (59:56):
yeah, some people don't say anything at all yeah,
she said she had no one hadinformed her.
She had a color service done.
Wow, she was wearing braids andno one told her that she was
thinning in her crown.
And I was like, oh, don't worry, I got a solution, honey, don't
you fret here, go to her, go toher, you will be good to go.

(01:00:17):
And then I had one client.
She came to me and I noticedthat her texture in the crown
was different from her perimeterand I asked her.
I was like is has you know?
I thought it was like maybe adensity situation, like, is your
hair higher density in a crownand lower around your perimeter?
She was like, no, I wasexperiencing some hair loss and

(01:00:39):
this grew back in.
You know, this texture justgrew back in differently.
And I was like, oh so whohelped you?
And it was you.
It was you.
I'm afraid these ladies aresaving lives.
What is this?

Speaker 2 (01:00:55):
One scalp at a time, oh my God.
And that's CCCA too for you Ata time, oh my God, and that's
CCCA too for you.
And you know, when people startto present with CCCA that
baldness at the top of the scalp, it usually presents as
breakage, like they complainthat their hair is starting to
break off oh no, at the center.
And that means that there'sinflammation already in the
scalp that needs to be treated.
But that's early, that'sconsidered early, so you can

(01:01:17):
still save the hair.

Speaker 1 (01:01:18):
Okay, yeah, I'm learning so much.
So much Is hair loss reversible, reversible?

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
I would say many times it is Many times okay, not
always.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Yeah, in what cases it's?

Speaker 2 (01:01:37):
not reversible.
Usually, the longer the timehas passed, the less likely it
is to be reversible, becauseeven things that we do, like PRP
, if it's been 20 years thatyou've had this, you know you're
a male, you have male patternbaldness and you're trying to
bring your hair back.
Yeah, this, you know you're amale, you have male pattern
baldness and you're trying tobring your hair back.
But it's been 20 plus years.
The PRP is not going to be aseffective as, say, five, 10

(01:01:58):
years ago for you.
So it's all about how long it'sbeen with scarring hair loss,
it's about the degree ofscarring.
So once you see that, you'veseen that shiny skin right, Once
you start to see a lot of theshiny skin, you know that hair
is unfortunately probably notcoming back because you don't
see a follicle.
Exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Yeah, and so that's why, whenever I would see that,
I always wonder can this bereversed?
You know, because you don't seeany signs of any follicles
there and I'm like without afollicle there's not going to be
any hair that can come through,you know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:31):
You know it's really interesting is that I've had
some cases of scarring hair lossthat I thought was never going
to come back.
Right, I was like this is aHail Mary, let's do this PRP,
let's do this microneedling.
I'm very clear with them aboutsetting expectations.
Yeah, but this patient reallywanted to do this and what I
ended up doing was pairing themicroneedling with the PRP.
Where we're caught, it's kindof like aerating a lawn, right,

(01:02:52):
you're puncturing, making theselittle channels in the skin and
then putting in the PRP and, loand behold, her hair grew back.
Oh, my goodness, and that wasyou just trying something.
I was just trying themicroneedling with the PRP.
We did three treatments and thearea fully grew back.
Oh my goodness, so happens withsome patients, doesn't happen

(01:03:13):
with others and it's hard topredict who it's going to work
for yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:18):
Oh man, at least there's an option to just try
yeah you know.
Yeah, at least that's that youknow versus like girl.
It's nothing I can do.
I can't help you.
Do you?
Do you see any males in yourpractice?
I do I see a lot of males.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Yeah, okay all right, cool.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
I was just curious, because you know, of course, my
clientele is predominantly women.
Do you see any males in yourpractice?
I do, I see a lot of males,okay, all right, cool.
I was just curious, because youknow, of course, my clientele
is predominantly women.

Speaker 2 (01:03:43):
Yeah, so I was wondering like what percentage
of men do you see opposed towomen?

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Sure, I probably see about 25% men 25%, yeah, and
they're trying to save theirhair.
Yes, oh okay.
Are they predominantly black,white?

Speaker 2 (01:03:54):
I have a very, very mixed male patient base.
They are a combination ofAfrican American, Latino.
I have a good amount of sort oflike Middle Eastern Persian
patients as well, and then Ihave Asian patients too, okay,
and I also have Caucasianpatients, so the male population
at my practice is actuallyquite diverse.

Speaker 1 (01:04:15):
Diverse.
Okay, that's good to know.
Yeah, everybody don't want tobe bald.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
It's a universal shared experience, right.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Absolutely.
Are there specific ingredientsin hair products that people
should look for or avoid tosupport healthy hair growth?

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
That people should look for or avoid Definitely
that.
Avoid one, definitely the.
Avoid one Absolutely.
What should you avoid in your?
Well, I think a lot of hairproducts now don't contain
sulfates.
Okay, right.
So, sulfates are kind of harshon the hair.
Dry out the hair.
Yes, so people are avoidingsulfates.
Okay, right, so sulfates arekind of harsh on the hair dry
out the hair, so people areavoiding sulfates.

(01:04:57):
I'll be honest, there's thistrend towards including things
like essential oils.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
Oh, let's talk about that.
Yeah, come on, girl's on thattrend, come on.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
There's a trend with including all these plant-based
ingredients.
And listen, my practice name isNature of Skin.
You know I'm plant-based.
I love all the plant-basedthings, but a word of caution is
that plants are biologicallyactive, meaning even things like
aspirin.
We got aspirin from a tree bark.
A lot of our medicines comefrom plants, right?

(01:05:34):
So what that means is that whenwe put something on our skin or
we put something in our hair,we could get a reaction to it.
Okay, and I'm seeing a lot ofthings like lavender, lime,
bergamot, citrus essential oilsin our shampoos, condition
lotions, creams, that I'm seeingpeople react to.
I had a woman come in with arash all over her face, all over

(01:05:58):
the back of her neck, and toldme she just shampooed her hair
and it spread.
Oh yeah, well, she shampooed itand the shampoo went down her
face, and all that.
Within a day or two, she wasred, she was flaking, she had a
really significant rash.
Oh my goodness.
And looking at the shot, I wentthrough her allergy list.
One of her allergies was Brazilnuts, and so I look on the

(01:06:19):
shampoo bottle and, lo andbehold, one of the ingredients
is Brazil nut extract.
Why it was in her shampoo, Idon't know, but I would say when
it comes to the products thatwe're using, I don't know, but I
would say when it comes to theproducts that we're using, it's
better to lean towards somethinglike the simpler things and not
the things with like the 30, 40, 50 ingredients, you know For

(01:06:55):
sure.
Yeah, I agree, glycerin thoseare great humectants that pull
moisture into your hair, right,you know?
Look for soothing things, likeif they want to add things like
niacinamide, that's verysoothing to the scalp.
All those things, reallysticking with those four basics.
Oh yeah, keep it simple.
Yeah, my hair spritz mixture Irecommend at the practice all
the time is basically about twoounces of vegetable glycerin,
two ounces of aloe vera juice.

(01:07:16):
Yeah, about six ounces of water, 20 drops of oil.
Shake it up, mist it once a day.
Yeah, we're good to go.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Very moisturizing.
Yeah, mm, hmm, yeah, and it'ssimplicity just being minimal.
Yes, you know, it changes a lot, you, you know?
I feel like when you overdo it,you send everything to overkill
exactly like keep it simple,keep it simple and uh, because

(01:07:43):
it makes it more complex andalso discouraging.
Yes, it's like I don't want todo, have nothing to do with all
of that.
You know, like you know, that'sthat even when, whenever it
comes to just a basic hair careregimen that I'm recommending
for a client, if you're likewell, I saw on youtube, I should
be doing this, I should bedoing that, I should and and I

(01:08:04):
tell them, just listen, get youa clarifier that you're gonna do
that once a month and thenyou're gonna follow up with
moisturizing shampoo and amoisturizing conditioner, mm-hmm
, and you're a good leave-in.
Okay, and keep it moving.

Speaker 2 (01:08:18):
What are your favorite ones?
Oh, Redken.

Speaker 1 (01:08:21):
You like Redken, I love Redken, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
Redken and by Lodge, by Lodge.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
So far, those are my top two favorite Mm.
Hmm, because they're so gentleon the scalp too, and what I've
noticed since a lot of clientshave been, since we are
transitioning to wearing ourcurly hair now, it tends to be,
quote unquote, drier, eventhough it's just sometimes the
texture of curly hair you knowversus when it was straight.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
There's no resistance .

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
You have these curls going in different directions,
so it creates friction and thenit gives you the illusion that
your hair is dry, you know.
So those Reikin is my go-to forsure, the All Soft Curls line,
and then they have an acidicbonding concentrate line.
Okay, so it can keep that pHlevel of that hair and that

(01:09:09):
scalp, you know, at its normalcyyou know, Okay, so those are my
top two, for sure.
Yeah, there are others out therethat I haven't tapped into that
I hear a lot of great reviewsabout, but that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
What do you like for low porosity hair?
Because I see that in mypractice always Ooh low porosity
.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I always tell my clients it's a struggle to have
low porosity hair, but it's also, to me, the most healthiest,
because it's a struggle to havelow porosity hair, but it's also
, to me, the most healthiestbecause it's so resistant and
it's not prone to receiving alot of things that can be
damaged because that cuticle isso shut closed, it's so stubborn
.
So I would say I stillrecommend wrecking.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
You know, it's all about adjusting the watering.

Speaker 1 (01:09:54):
Okay, it's all about adjusting the water temperature.
Okay, and because the warmerthe hair, it'll lift the cuticle
so that it can receive thatmoisture from the product Got it
and so.
But I always tell them it'sreally great to have low
porosity hair.
It's less prone to getting heatdamage because the heat can't
penetrate the medulla to alterthe curl pattern and make your

(01:10:17):
hair want to stay straight, youknow.
So I always try to encouragethem to embrace, be happy.
You have low porosity hair.
It's not a bad thing.
Just adjust the temperature ofyour water so that the hair can
the cuticle can lift, so theycan receive.
You know the product and that'sreally it.

(01:10:38):
You know it's.
Mostly it also depends on thedensity.
The higher density clients,those are the ones who struggle
the most to me.
And the lower density, eventhough they have low porosity,
it's easier for their product toreceive moisture.
When the density is higher, itshrinks.
Even though they have lowporosity, it's easier for their

(01:10:58):
product to receive moisture.
When the density is higher, itshrinks a lot, you know, to the
scalp and the curls tend to betighter.
Got it and so that's what makesit hard.
I tell them be very intentionalwhenever you are shampooing and
conditioning your hair.
Sure, don't just throw thatshampoo on the hair, and just
you know like.
You have to be very intentionalWhenever you are conditioning
your hair.
Take the time and work thatconditioner through.

(01:11:20):
Don't just throw it on yourcurls, because they are
traveling in differentdirections and some of those
curls aren't going to get someof that love, so you got to be
patient and section that hairoff.
I love that.
Yeah, just section it off andreally work the product through.

Speaker 2 (01:11:35):
For low porosity hair Work the product through.

Speaker 1 (01:11:38):
I have low porosity hair and it's high density too,
and I just work that productthrough.
It takes time, it do.
It tests patience.
Just be patient with yourself.
Yeah, you got to be patient andmake sure you do your hair on a
day where you have nothing todo so that you can give it the
love, intention and care that itneeds.

Speaker 2 (01:11:54):
I love that, yeah, because low-price hair.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
I don't want medium, I don't want high and I
definitely don't want high.
You don't want high.
You know.
So be happy that it is stubborn, because it takes a lot to
break it down, you know.
So I try to tell them that andthen when they receive that,

(01:12:19):
they're like it's not even thatbad.
You know, I, after all, I don'treally have bad hair, you know.
That's why, you know, theinformation is online.
It's so discouraging.
You know, I'm like it's not abad thing to have tight curls,
to have shrinkage shrinkages.
It's a great sign of great hairhealth when your hair is
shrinking, you know.
So I try to encourage them toknow that these are really good

(01:12:40):
benefits for your hair.
You know that means theintegrity is in great shape.

Speaker 2 (01:12:44):
I love that.
I love that message.
I just try to help them embracewhat they have.

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
And then for my high porosity clients unless, because
high porosity doesn'tnecessarily mean that it's
damaged, it could be chemicallytreated and we just make sure we
change the hair care regimen tohair products that are
chemically uh related tochemically treated hair, and
that's it.
You know, like it's so many uhsolutions out here that are

(01:13:11):
complex when it's really simple,wow, yeah, that's really it,
that's fantastic, yeah, butthat's all I have today.
You know, I really thank you somuch for carving time, I know
you're busy because I reachedout last year Girl last year.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
the last three months of the year are the busiest.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
Yeah, I reached out last year and your assistant
told me reach out at thebeginning of the year and we
should be able to jump on thepodcast.
I was like I'm going to do it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Yeah, I was so happy Girl, I ran I love talking about
this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:44):
I ran and told my family I was like she's going to
be on the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:13:49):
I love it.
The more education that we cando in our communities really,
you know, the better, yeah, andthis messaging needs to come out
like over and over, and, overand over again, so as many
people possible can hear it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Thank you for even having a platform like this
where people can learn yeah andfeel safe Get resources yeah,
that's what it was created for.

Speaker 1 (01:14:12):
Yeah, exactly what you just said.
Yeah, that's what it wascreated for.
Yeah, exactly what you justsaid.
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah, how do our listeners findyou?
How do they connect with you?
How do they stay in touch withyou?
And we need to know about you.
Know, because we want to knowabout this product in a year
that you're creating, so we needto know how to stay in contact.

Speaker 2 (01:14:27):
Absolutely, so you can reach me on Instagram.
Instagram, I'm at DrSayaObayinD-R-SayaObayin.
I'm on Instagram, and then onFacebook and Instagram and
TikTok it's at NatureOfSkinATX.
Okay, if you want to email us,you can email us at contact at

(01:14:48):
NatureOfSkinATXcom and our phonenumber is 512-312-7552.
So feel free to call us ifyou'd like.
Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:14:59):
You're welcome.
Thank you for tuning in totoday's episode of Hair.
What I'm Saying?
A big thank you to Dr SayaO'Brien for sharing her
incredible knowledge andinsights on hair loss and
restoration.
Her expertise in dermatologyand dedication to helping
individuals reclaim theirconfidence is truly inspiring.
I hope you found thisconversation as enlightening as

(01:15:19):
I did.
If you'd like to learn moreabout Dr Abayin's practice or
the treatments she offers, besure to check out Nature of Skin
Dermatology in Austin, texas.
As always, thank you forlistening.
Don't forget to subscribe,leave a review and share this
episode with anyone who mightfind it helpful.
Stay tuned for moreconversations that inspire,

(01:15:39):
educate and empower.
Until next time, take care andkeep shining.

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