May 10, 2023 • 31 mins
Avid collector (read: “little goblin”) Hannah Chafe has an impressive hoard of vintage clothing, antique cookbooks and fantasy swords. What she doesn’t have is a kid or a lot of money, so does she really need a will? In this episode, Lauren Bird and Cadeem Lalor find out it’s never too early to start thinking about your end. Only one of the Half Banked hosts has a will of their own — and as estate lawyer Stephanie Battista explains, that would make all the difference if they suddenly met the business end of a city bus.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Lauren Bird (00:02):
If you ask young Canadians, why they don't have a
will, they'll probably tell you,they don't really have any
assets to pass down. No kids toinherit them. But if you stop
and think, everyone has peopleand possessions, they treasure
Hannah Chafe (00:15):
For a long time.
I've been sort of likecollecting stuff like I was a
kid that had the rockcollection, anything that has
any sort of sentimental value,like I would keep it. My mom
would call me a hoarder. And Iwas like, No, these are valuable
items.
Lauren Bird (00:27):
That's Hannah Chafe. She doesn't have a car or
a house of her own yet, but shehas spent her 24 years of life
acquiring a fairly vast andvaluable collection.
Hannah Chafe (00:38):
I have a lot because I like to collect a lot
of stuff. I'm like a littleGoblin, my biggest collection is
vintage clothing, mostly fromthe 30s to the 50s. I have some
like 70s 80s stuff, a couple of20s things. That's my biggest
collection that I started doingmostly in the pandemic, because
I got that CERB check. So Istarted buying a lot of vintage
(00:59):
clothes so that I could sellthem. But I haven't gotten
around to selling them yet. SoI've just kept them. I collect
old cookbooks really old, like50s. And earlier, I have one
from the 30s. That was like aadvertisement for a Kelvinator
refrigerator when refrigeratorswere still like a new thing. And
then I also collect swords,which is a smaller collection,
but still, most of them are Lordof the Rings. One is Game of
(01:22):
Thrones, and then a couple ofthem are just kind of like
vaguely medieval. I thinkthey're supposed to be like
Excalibur, but it's a vaguelymedieval style swords. And then
I have a couple of daggers andthings too.
Cadeem Lalor (01:33):
Before you ask.
Yes, she has Sting. She hasAnduril and she has a Valerian
steel digger from Game ofThrones. Altogether, she figures
her collection might be worthnearly $10,000. Not that her
parents know that. They thinkall of her "junk" is worthless.
And that's a problem because ifHannah were to die without a
will, the law says her parentswould inherit everything.
Hannah Chafe (01:49):
When I started thinking, oh, I want a will to
give us away it was when I wasgoing away on a trip to Italy,
and I hate planes. They'reterrifying. I think I'd only
been on the plane like once,maybe twice before that. And it
was like horrifying, I hate itso much. So I was like, I'm
gonna die on this plane ride. SoI was like, I'm gonna write a
will because I have all theseswords and I want my things to
go to specific people. And Iknow my friends want it. So then
(02:10):
I wrote up a will with my friendover like Skype or something.
And I was like, it needs you towrite this up for me. And we
were like 14, so I was like youneed to notarize it. I have
vintage clothing. I mean, I dohave a friend who also collects
vintage clothing. So that wouldprobably all go to her. Although
I'd probably put a stipulation,hey, everyone can come to the
house, pick up what they want.
And take it because the thoughtof especially my vintage
(02:31):
clothing, like just beingdonated into like a Value
Village, like would hurt me alot because then they'd be like,
oh, there's a rip in it. Intothe garbage. And it's like a
very rare like 1930 stress thatjust needed to be fixed. And
it's actually worth like $400and that would kill me a little
bit.
Lauren Bird (02:49):
But making sure the right items go to the right
people isn't the only reason toplan for your death. What about
your pets? The rights to yourcreative works? Your computer
and social media accounts? Andwhat if you have wishes for what
happens to your body?
Hannah Chafe (03:03):
Being embalmed, too, is like another added price
that seems so unnecessary to me.
Because you're just puttingtoxic chemicals into your body
to preserve it for what the fiveminutes that people may be
looking at your body and thenyou get put in the ground and
then that leeches the chemicalsinto the ground. Very bad for
the environment. I don't finddeath very, like, grim and I
just have like a pretty likeblase attitude towards death.
(03:26):
It's not something that'sterrifying to me. It would be
impossible but my dream for afuneral was to have a Viking
funeral and like actually have,be on a boat and set on fire
will be really cool. It wouldsuck that I wouldn't be there to
witness it. But it would bereally cool. I don't think
that's legal. I don't think youcan do that, unfortunately.
Lauren Bird (03:44):
Welcome to Half Banked. In this episode, will
they or won't they? 70% of youngCanadians aged 18 to 34 do not
have a will. That's according toa recent poll by Ipsos and RBC.
Why bother when you're young andhealthy with no kids, no spouse
and little wealth to your name?
That's why Hannah doesn't have awill yet despite her hordes
(04:06):
precarious fate.
Hannah Chafe (04:09):
I might wait maybe until I have like more of an
asset maybe like a house one dayor I'm like married and then
there's more things to likeactually put in. It's not like
people are gonna be fightingover my estate.
Cadeem Lalor (04:23):
Is she right not to worry about family and
fighting. What's the power ofattorney anyway? And there's a
Viking funeral really out of thequestion. Stay tuned and let's
find out.
Lauren Bird (04:39):
So, as we've been talking and preparing for this
episode, we've been thinkingabout what would happen to the
two of us if we, you know, Godforbid, got hit by a bus today
and died.
Cadeem Lalor (04:50):
That's why we have Stephanie Battista here, who's a
wills and estate lawyer based inToronto with O'Sullivan Estate
Lawyers and practicing nineyears in estates and trust.
Dealing with power of attorney,trust, estates. Hopefully she
can help us, you know de...
demystify the situation. Seeexactly what would happen most
likely to me since I don't havea will.
Stephanie Battista (05:06):
Well, thank you guys for having me here.
Cadeem, unfortunately, I...
sorry that you passed away.
We'll say yesterday.
Lauren Bird (05:13):
It was a tragic accident.
Stephanie Battista (05:14):
Tragic accident. So you don't have a
will. And now what happens, Iguess is the question, what
would happen to your estate?
Well, because you don't have awill, our laws will kick in. In
Ontario. It's all governed bythe Succession Law Reform Act,
and that sets out who isactually entitled to your
estate. And this might not bewho you want to get your estate,
(05:34):
whereas Lauren, you have yourwell, you could have said,
whoever it is, Cadeem, you don'thave that choice. And just to
kind of take you through what itis very briefly is, you know, if
you did have a spouse, it wouldgo to the spouse if you had the
children go to their children,but in this case, no spouse or
no trial. So it would go to yourparents that-
Cadeem Lalor (05:53):
I wonder, a common-law partner with that. Is
there any room for there to goto them at all?
Stephanie Battista (05:57):
Right? So no, unfortunately, not not in
Ontario, some people aresurprised that common-law
spouses are not treated the sameas married spouses. It does vary
depending on the province you'reliving in or the territory but
we're in Ontario right now. SoCadeem, unfortunately, if you
did have a common-law partner,the partner would get nothing,
it would bypass the partner andgo straight to your parents. And
(06:19):
that is just an unfortunate partof not having that will.
Cadeem Lalor (06:22):
I wonder about probate as well, if you could
just define that for ourlisteners.
Stephanie Battista (06:25):
Of course.
Yeah, so probate is a courtprocess, I guess, very generally
speaking, it's where the lastwill is deemed valid. So it's
the true last will of thedeceased, and the executor named
has that authority to act. Sowhy it's needed is there's a lot
of third parties. So forexample, a bank, you know, banks
not gonna let me come in and belike, Oh, I'm Lauren's executor,
give me her money. They're gonnawant to have proof of that
Cadeem Lalor (06:49):
An executor just generally being the person who
handles the will, correct?
Stephanie Battista (06:53):
Exactly. In Ontario, sometimes it's referred
Lauren Bird (06:53):
How complicated can that process be? Like, when you
to as an estate trustee. It'sgenerally called an executor.
Sometimes it's a trustee.
Unfortunately, we have a lot ofdifferent words, but it's all
the same role.
have to go through probate? Youtalked about the administrative
hurdles, what are those like?
Stephanie Battista (07:10):
Well, the first one is, so I guess
talking, if you don't have awill, what happens is, you know,
any court process, it's going tobe a long process, it's going to
be a little bit expensive. Soyou're already dealing with
that. But if you don't have awill, there is nobody who has
immediate authority to deal withyour assets to start the probate
process, somebody has to step upand do that. And so it's kind of
(07:32):
a catch 22. Because in order toprobate, you need to know the
person's assets and where theyare. But nobody's going to
release that information to youbecause you're not an executor.
And you can't be an executoruntil probates, you know,
receive, so you're kind of in adilemma where who steps up? And
then how do they go about it?
Lauren Bird (07:50):
Oh, my word that sounds like very complicated.
Stephanie Battista (07:53):
Definitely.
Lauren Bird (07:54):
Does any one have to step up?
Stephanie Battista (07:56):
So there is a priority. And I should say
that throughout Canada, it isbased on the province or the
territory. So I'm a lawyer inOntario, so I'll just speak
generally about Ontario, but itis pretty similar. So there is a
priority, and it is prettycommon sense. So spouse, if not
spouse than children, thenparents and so on, might not be
who you want to do it, or whoyou trust to do it. So that's
(08:18):
the problem again, withouthaving a will.
Lauren Bird (08:20):
Are there other assets that you need to consider
and think about other thanhousing or your money?
Stephanie Battista (08:26):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously,
your house is the big one, yourbank accounts are the big one.
But you know, sometimes peoplealso forget about registered
plans, like maybe you have anRSP through your work, or maybe
your work has a life insurancepolicy. So those are all things
that need to be part of yourestate plan. I think especially
with with younger people,personal effects, it can be
(08:47):
quite expensive. If you have agood collection, then who knows
what that cost would be. Andthen there's also digital
assets. It's definitely a newerarea. And you know, estate
practitioners are also trying toget our feet wet with it. So we
don't have all the answers, butthat's definitely something
that's going to continue to growespecially with, you know, our
younger clientele.
Lauren Bird (09:07):
Another thing like we talked about as young people
a lot is pets, overall, youknow, for babies and yet dog
dads. I mean, do you see a lotof people putting their pets in
their wills?
Stephanie Battista (09:17):
Definitely.
And a very famous case is KarlLagerfeld the Chanel guy. I
think his cat I think is like,Yeah, His cat is like a
multimillionaire.
Lauren Bird (09:29):
I follow her on Instagram.
Stephanie Battista (09:32):
I mean, a pet cannot legally own assets. I
think that is pretty, you know,understandable. But you could
set aside a trust. So you know,you would name my friend to
watch Fluffy and set aside thisamount of money for Fluffy. So
we do see that. It is what itis. And it's good. I think you
should have a contingency planfor your furry friends. You
(09:53):
know.
Cadeem Lalor (09:53):
I guess I was also wondering, because I have a pet.
I know this sort of. I feel likethe sort of like the millennial
dependent the most common one.
But I think in my case, it willdefinitely still fall to my
girlfriend in this case, becauseshe got it before she met me. So
I think I'm not included withthat piece of it, which is kind
of a thing, a big thing formillennials now. But also I have
creative works, where the rightsare kind of at the moment held
by basically whatever onlinepublication has them, and then
(10:15):
they would revert afterwards. Soit's like, they don't have a
will though the rights revert tome, but I'm not there kind of
what is the process for kind ofgetting copyright over those
works,
Stephanie Battista (10:24):
Right. So it would revert to I mean, it
depends on obviously what thecontract says, but it would
revert to your estate. Andagain, you need somebody to
administer that estate. So itwould fall into the executor to
deal with it, it would just beanother, it is treated just like
another asset that you wouldhave. I think sometimes,
especially with young people,they tend to see assets as a
bank account, you know, a house,but there's definitely more than
(10:47):
that, that is an asset of yours,that maybe you didn't consider
that you had.
Lauren Bird (10:51):
So we talked to Hannah, she has a lot of
interesting collections.
Collections of swords andvintage clothing. Do you see
that a lot like people wantingto add their collections into
their will, make sure certainthings go to certain people?
Stephanie Battista (11:04):
Definitely, I mean, again, that's an asset,
right? So it goes beyond just abank account, I mean, your
collection of swords and vintageclothing, which is sounds really
cool. Um, those are assets ofhers, and the will could
determine how it's distributed.
Otherwise, it just falls in tothe default distribution that we
you know, talked about it wouldgo to a spouse or a child or
failing that a parent. So in awill you could actually say...
(11:26):
so I sorry, I know nothing aboutswords, but let's just say like,
sword one, to Lauren, and swordtwo to Cadeem. So you could
actually set that out in yourwill, without a will again, you
know, could be a free for all.
And I will say with personalexperience, these personal
effects can be the mostemotionally charged items and
(11:48):
could cause again, maybe fightsamong loved ones.
Cadeem Lalor (11:51):
That's interesting you mentioned that, because I
think she mentioned, no one'sgoing to fight over things. But
I guess there are cases ofpeople sort of being blindsided
or, you know, among the estateby how tense things can get.
Stephanie Battista (12:00):
Exactly. And I think, you know, we all live
in that perfect world where myfriends, my family, they're not
going to fight but it happens.
And I think people forget theemotional aspect of it like they
lost a loved one. Maybe your momhad during your lifetime has had
zero interest in your swordcollection. But then now you've
passed away and maybe your momdoes want something and but you
want to give to someone else. SoI think don't underestimate the
(12:23):
importance of dividing yourassets and don't I guess,
overestimate that people aregonna get along on your death.
beneficiarydoesn't get anything additional.
So sword A is going to Laurenand on Hanna's death, sword A is
(12:46):
not in existence, then you'renot getting anything.
Lauren Bird (12:51):
I don't get another item to compensate?
Stephanie Battista (12:52):
No, you don't get another sword.
Lauren Bird (12:56):
So what about like the cost of getting a will
versus not getting one? Like howmuch money could your
beneficiaries be saddled with byhaving to go through the probate
process?
Stephanie Battista (13:07):
Right. So there's a couple different ways
to look at it. So one thing Iwill note with the probate
process is that even if you havea will, you still might have to
go through the probate process.
It depends on what type ofassets you are, and if a third
party requires it. So it's notso much avoiding the probate
process, because that mighthappen regardless. It's the cost
leading up to getting there. Soyou're probably spending more in
(13:30):
legal fees when you don't have awill just because there's a
little bit more legwork thatneeds to be done before you even
apply for probate. And then alsojust time and energy, I think
that's sometimes a hidden cost.
If your loved ones don't knowwhere to even start, they might
be overwhelmed and they mighthave to seek you know,
professional assistance to helpwith locating assets, writing to
(13:53):
every single bank rating toevery single insurance company
and trying to figure things out.
So that could add up. I thinkit's some of those hidden costs.
Going back to probate though,that's like a 50/50 thing
because if you do have a willthere is a chance you could
avoid probate but so I don'tknow it's very much it depends
but but I think it's more thecosts leading up to probate that
you need to think about.
Lauren Bird (14:15):
Okay, interesting.
Man also a lot of time a like ifyou have to write to all of
these banks to locate yourassets. Oh.
Cadeem Lalor (14:22):
That's like months, at least.
Stephanie Battista (14:24):
Months? And that's if you get replies. I
don't think banks are always notI'm not against any banks,
whoever's listening, butsometimes they're slow to reply
right? If they reply, a lot morework for your loved ones. I
think that's the main takeaway.
Cadeem Lalor (14:38):
We were also wondering because we want to
touch on one of Hannah's mostdire questions, you might not
get it often. We were wonderingwhat the legality is of a Viking
funeral.
Stephanie Battista (14:48):
You know what, so I, oh, I have to plead
with him on this one. I'm notsure it's legal in Canada. I'm
gonna make an assumption thatit's not but I might have to do
some research into that. I don'tknow for sure I have not had a
client ask for one yet. Butdoesn't mean I won't have a
client one day. So I shouldprobably research that answer
(15:09):
and let you know.
Lauren Bird (15:10):
Do you ever get like odd funeral requests in
your wills?
Stephanie Battista (15:13):
Definitely.
We've had people who want, youknow, very specific parties at
whatever expense. You know, I'vehad people who want to plant
trees that in this specificlocation, I've had people who
maybe want to explore otheropportunities outside of Canada
with being frozen, I don't know.
So yeah, like frozen burial. Andso it's just a matter of, you
(15:34):
know, trying to figure out howto incorporate that into the
will. For our purposes, though,I one thing I do want to know,
it is good to have your funeralwishes in your will. But wills
are sometimes read after thefuneral. So just as a you know,
a little heads up, if you want aViking funeral, if you want to
be frozen, you know, let yourloved ones know, just because it
(15:54):
could be too late.
Lauren Bird (15:56):
'Cus the funeral could happen. And then they open
the well. And yeah, I Oh, youshould have done this.
Stephanie Battista (16:00):
Exactly. I mean, not all the time, but just
it's not guaranteed the will isread first.
Cadeem Lalor (16:05):
I'm actually wondering as well, do you
recommend or are theresituations where you do or don't
recommend using an onlineservice for it?
Stephanie Battista (16:11):
That's a great question. And I think
especially nowadays, it's easy,it's there. And I do caution
clients, there is a little bitof you get what you pay for with
it. Some of the online servicesare not great. That being said,
I think they've made greatimprovements. I think there's a
couple out there that wereactually created by estate
lawyers. So I mean, I wouldstill caution clients against
(16:34):
it. I mean, if you have to havesomething, I would say it's
better than nothing. But apoorly done one could really
also cause problems. And atleast with the lawyer, you know,
it's gonna get done properly,you know, it's valid. And also
the lawyer can give you planningideas, there might not be
something you're aware of liketo go back to your other point
about an, a dependent you didn'trealize, you know, that's for
(16:56):
the lawyer to explore with youand let you know what the
options are and what yourrequirements are. An online
will's not going to do that.
Again, if it means having awill, I would say do it for
maybe a bandaid solution, but Iwouldn't necessarily rely on
them for long term.
Lauren Bird (17:11):
Are there things that people do miss a lot like
that they don't think about interms of creating there will?
Stephanie Battista (17:16):
Definitely yeah, I was like, where should
we start? I mean, going back tothe online will. I had a
situation a few years ago nowwhere the deceased made it
online well, and she left it tothree friends. But she just said
to my three friends, X,Y and Z.
She didn't say in what division?
So you assume it's equally butit doesn't actually say equally.
(17:38):
And no one thought about it.
Like it didn't turn out to be anissue. But I'm just thinking
like, if one of those friendswanted to say, hey, wait a
minute, she loved me more. I'mgetting three, three quarters of
this, like could that friendhave done that? So that's one
thing that, you know, kind ofcircling back to the online
will, but in terms of what youforget about just really all
your assets, you know how todistribute them? I think
(17:59):
sometimes people aren't tooknowledgeable of like, what
common law versus a spouse isand who has an obligation to
your state, even if they're notin the will?
Cadeem Lalor (18:10):
Is there any sort of thing that you notice that
should not be included in awill, that should be done
verbally as opposed to incontract?
Stephanie Battista (18:16):
That's a great question. I mean, it never
hurts to have it in the willlike the funeral wishes, even
though we do say tell your lovedones, it also doesn't hurt to
have it in the will. Some of thethings you may not want to
include is it's more like forprivacy reasons. So if you go
through probate, your will doesbecome part of the public
record. So if you have a longwinded answer about why you're
(18:39):
cutting out one child, and hereare all the reasons, well, then
anyone could technically go andsee your will and see that. So
sometimes we do say, you know,there's something called like a
letter of wishes that you canmake with your will to separate
document, it's not asenforceable as well, but it's
just to set out you know, toyour loved ones, what you were
thinking about with thedistribution of your will, and
(18:59):
that could be kept outside theprobate application and just go
to the loved ones.
Lauren Bird (19:04):
That's so juicy, though.
Stephanie Battista (19:05):
I know, right? I've never seen one. I
mean, I would love to have likegone to the court record, like
look through that.
Lauren Bird (19:10):
I bet there're some good ones.
Stephanie Battista (19:11):
There must be because like sometimes you'll
have like an omission clause.
Like I acknowledge that I'm notincluding my son. But then the
client wants to go one stepfurther and explain why and I'm
like, don't do it. Just leave itbe like you're already causing
emotional strife. Like let's notworry about that.
Lauren Bird (19:28):
Do you find people cut people out a lot?
Stephanie Battista (19:31):
You can, I wouldn't say a lot, but it is,
you know, you are allowed toaside from some cases, including
like spouses and dependents, youknow, it is what you want to do.
That's why having a will'simportant versus not having a
well because the law dictateswhat to do with your stuff when
you don't have a will but a willis really your last wishes. And
it's not always juicy whenpeople cut out family members.
(19:52):
Sometimes it could just be thatsomebody else maybe needs a
little bit more. You know,someone might a child might be
established and have their ownfinances and really, their
sibling needs a little bit moreof a helping hand. So it's not
always juicy. Yeah, I will sayin my line of work, I have not
had that many juicy cases,unfortunately. Or I guess
fortunately, I don't know,
Cadeem Lalor (20:12):
I guess one thing I want to touch on because like,
as a term power of attorney doescome up a lot if we're able to
kind of explain exactly whatthat means.
Stephanie Battista (20:18):
Right. So a power of attorney, it's an often
overlooked document, but it isseparate from your will. So A
will just to take it back a bita will is something that only
comes in effect on your death.
So it's a document that sets outyour wishes, but you know, it
has no effect while you'realive, obviously, you die, then
it comes to effect. Power ofAttorney, however, is something
that is during your lifetime. Sothis would be there are two
(20:41):
types of powers of attorney,there's one for property and one
for personal care. And they comeinto play if you're incapable of
managing your property, andhandling your personal care. So
property deals with obviouslyall financial assets, you know,
how to deal with your money, howto deal with your house. And
then personal care is, you know,day to day health and nutrition.
Lauren Bird (21:01):
And are the two clearly labeled, like I'm
sitting here wondering which onedo I have?
Stephanie Battista (21:06):
Yeah, they should be clearly labeled. If
they were done correctly,typically, they are done in
tandem. So if you went to alawyer, and if your dad's a
lawyer, I'm assuming that youdid get both. But that'd be
something to check on, you knowthat you have one for property
and one for personal care,because they are different
rules.
Lauren Bird (21:26):
That's interesting.
How important is it to have likea power of attorney?
Stephanie Battista (21:30):
So something that people don't know is that
if you don't have one, and youunfortunately, become incapable,
somebody has to apply to thecourt for a guardianship. So
your loved ones would have to,you know, again, do a court
process, show the court howthey're going to manage your
assets, you know, they're goingto have to keep their accounts
updated with the court, it's along process. In my experience,
(21:53):
it can be expensive, especiallyif you have two people fighting
over the guardianship. And itcould have all been avoided by
just having a power of attorneydocument.
Cadeem Lalor (22:02):
So mainly, you mentioned if you're physically
incapable, but are there anyother situations where it's
still kind of a vital document?
Stephanie Battista (22:07):
Right? So it's actually when you're
mentally incapable or physicallyincapable. So it's more just if
you don't have any capacity tomake those decisions on your
behalf.
Lauren Bird (22:17):
And how do you choose a power of attorney.
Stephanie Battista (22:19):
Right. So that I mean, it comes down to
who you trust, it's very similarto you know, deciding who is a
great executor. Um, soultimately, it should be someone
that you trust, someone that islikely alive or like able to do
it. So again, maybe someonearound your age, it doesn't need
to be the same people. So, who'syour power of attorney for
property does not need to be thesame as your attorney for
(22:42):
personal care, because it's verydifferent set of skills. So
property, you might want toappoint someone who has some
financial experience is capableof doing the day to day banking
and all of that. Personal caredoesn't necessarily need to be
like that. It could just besomeone who understands what
your wishes are for your life.
And anything downtime, evenhygiene, daily hygiene, like I
can get very specific.
Lauren Bird (23:04):
No way.
Stephanie Battista (23:05):
Yes.
Lauren Bird (23:06):
So like, you set out those guidelines.
Stephanie Battista (23:08):
You can set up those guidelines, and you can
do like a living will or aletter of wishes. And I've seen
people in the past say that, youknow, if I become incapable I
want to get my hair done, everyweek. Like, they'll put that in
there. Just so the attorneyknows what your wishes are.
Lauren Bird (23:23):
Oh, I love that.
Stephanie Battista (23:24):
Yeah, it's kind of nice.
Lauren Bird (23:25):
Yeah.
Cadeem Lalor (23:25):
I didn't know it could get that specific. So
that's definitely good to know,I guess I should get on it.
Stephanie Battista (23:29):
At your age, you might not need to go that
specific at this. You know,hopefully, that doesn't happen.
It's usually, you know, olderclientele that maybe get used to
the day to day details, buthaving just the document in
place is definitely the rightfirst step.
Lauren Bird (23:41):
I feel like I would try and treat myself better than
I do now.
Cadeem Lalor (23:44):
I think so, too.
Lauren Bird (23:45):
Get my nails done every week.
Cadeem Lalor (23:47):
I'd be big on the self care at that point, so-
Stephanie Battista (23:48):
Right? like just all my money.
Beneficiaries.
Lauren Bird (23:52):
I'm gonna look the best I've ever looked.
Stephanie Battista (23:54):
Exactly.
Lauren Bird (23:56):
One of the things we talked to Hannah, about like
that, you know, she wasconcerned about was the cost of,
you know, going to a lawyer andgetting a will. How expensive
can it get?
Stephanie Battista (24:05):
That... I mean, it depends. I know, I've
kind of used that answer a lot.
It's the typical lawyer answer.
It really depends on where yougo. One thing that's great is
that there are a lot of lawyersin Canada, there's a lot of
lawyers in Ontario, and thereare a lot of good lawyers. So
really, you have to maybe do abit of research, it's not going
to, you know, your first Googlesearch is not going to
(24:26):
necessarily be the person who'sthe right fit for you. So the
prices vary wildly. And you haveto look at your situation. You
know, if you're young, this isyour first will, your assets are
relatively simple. You don'tneed to go to the Bay Street
firm and you don't need to go tothe partner who is 50 plus years
of experience. They would do anamazing job but the fees might
(24:47):
not be in line with what you'rethinking. So it's just a bit of
doing a bit of research. Onething I also tell clients is,
yes, you're going to have to paymoney for this but look at it as
you know an ins- type ofinsurance. You you would pay car
insurance, if you had a car,you'd pay, you know, house
insurance, if you have a home,like this is just another thing
that you kind of have to putthat money in to make sure it's
(25:08):
done. And it's done. Right.
Lauren Bird (25:11):
And once you have it, do you keep it with you?
Like, where should you keep it?
Stephanie Battista (25:14):
Oh, that's such a good question. And
clients sometimes put it in theworst places ever, which I will
tell you about. It depends onsometimes the lawyer to I know
our firm will hold on to theoriginals in safekeeping in,
like, a locked, fireproof safe,but it's up to the clients
discretion on that. So sometimesthey don't want us to hold on to
(25:34):
it, and they want to hold it onto them themselves. So my thing
is what I always tell clients,if you do want to hold on to it
yourself, do not put it in asafety deposit box, because an
executor can't access it withouta will. But the will is in
there. So it's like again, likethe chicken and the egg like
what comes first. Don't put itin, you know a personal lockbox
(25:56):
that no one has the key to takegood care of it, like put it
with your safe papers, make sureit's somewhere private and
accessible by your executors notto be self serving, but leave it
with the lawyer. So that wouldbe my first suggestion.
Lauren Bird (26:09):
Like, should you tell people where it is just
your executors?
Stephanie Battista (26:12):
You should definitely let your executors
know. Whether or not you want tolet them know what's in the will
is going to be a private, youknow, that's a personal choice.
Sometimes it's better not to letthe beneficiaries know, because
your will might change in 10years, and they might not be
beneficiaries. And that's yourright to do it. So let the
executors know that, hey, I dida will. It's in safekeeping at
(26:32):
this lawyer's office, and ifanything happens to me, you
know, the executor knows whereto go.
Lauren Bird (26:38):
Yeah, they would have to know who your lawyer is
go to the office.
Stephanie Battista (26:41):
Right, I mean, that's obviously best case
scenario. If they don't knowthere are, you know, methods to
try and locate the will. So youcould put a notice out being
like, I'm looking for the willof this deceased person. And
hopefully, you know, thelawyers, all estate lawyers are
reading it and like, Oh, I knowthat person
Cadeem Lalor (26:58):
Kind of like a forum, almost?
Stephanie Battista (27:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Lauren Bird (27:01):
And once you have done it, how often should you
redo it, like you mentioned, 10years from now someone might not
be in your will.
Stephanie Battista (27:07):
Right. So my rule of thumb, tell my clients,
if they're listening, they'llknow what it is, you should be
reviewing it every three to fiveyears, not necessarily with a
lawyer, but you should bepulling it up reading it, making
sure it's still in line withwhat you want to do. There are
certain life events, however,that you know, does trigger an
(27:28):
update sooner changes in maritalstatus, children, grandchildren,
which would be years from nowhopefully, there have been more
updates before the grandchildrencome, you know, changes in your
assets, whether it's an increaseor decrease, and also changes in
your beneficiaries circumstance.
So whether it's removing them,or maybe Unfortunately, one of
them is in a tougher spot now.
(27:49):
So you might want to putprotective terms on their
inheritance. So those are kindof some of the triggering
points, but every three to fiveyears, please read it. You don't
have to go to the lawyer, butjust read it to make sure it's
what you want.
Cadeem Lalor (28:00):
I guess we also had the case that we're thinking
of, you know, this accidentaldeath at times, are you kind of
worth more in debt than youthought you would be Have you
ever come across those instancessomeone dies, due to say,
individual or companynegligence, and then there's
basically, there's a big payoutthat maybe might not have been
expected,
Stephanie Battista (28:15):
Right. So I mean, that's something that,
again, helps with a will becauseyou know, your executor is that
you have someone who is able todeal with it and handle it. And
if there's a lawsuit, forexample, they can take it on on
behalf of the estate. If moremoney comes in. I mean, it's
always a pleasant surprise.
Sometimes it's the oppositewhere there's less than what was
expected. But you know, itdoesn't change the distribution
(28:35):
plan of your will. Right? If youhave a will. And you say it's
divided in three shares. It'sjust that each person is going
to get a little bit more now.
But yeah, so I think it's a, Idon't wanna say to happy
surprise, but you know, it'sit's more, you know, sometimes-
Lauren Bird (28:49):
Silver lining.
Stephanie Battista (28:50):
-anyway, yeah. Silver lining. I guess
that's terrible. But it is, itis what it is.
Lauren Bird (28:55):
And we can't joke about death. What can you joke
about?
Stephanie Battista (28:57):
I know, right, exactly. My certainty.
Yeah.
Lauren Bird (29:01):
Exactly.
Stephanie Battista (29:04):
think that they have nothing, what's the
point, blah, blah, blah,nothing's going to happen to me.
You know, it's such a simpletask to do. And it's so
important because you areleaving your family and your
loved ones in a difficult place.
They're already emotional withthe loss of you. So you know,
try and make something at leastone thing easier for them. So I
(29:25):
do encourage a lot of youngpeople to think about a will,
it's something that isdefinitely more helpful than
not, I'll tell you that.
Lauren Bird (29:34):
It, like for your average millennial, how long do
you think it would take to youknow, go and sit down with a
lawyer and actually go throughit?
Stephanie Battista (29:40):
It does not take that long at all. I will
say the reasons wills typicallytake longest because of the
client because of their own lifelike they have a hard time
taking the time out to meet withthe lawyer. Usually, at least in
my practice, the longest part isprepping for the meeting and
doing the first meeting. Onceyou get over that hurdle. It's
smooth sailing good. justreading the draft and hopefully
(30:01):
being happy with it and signingit. So, you know, depends on the
capacity of the lawyer, but itcould take a few weeks could
take a few months. So it's not along process. It doesn't have to
be a long process, I should say,Wow.
Lauren Bird (30:12):
I feel like I've learned so much today.
Stephanie Battista (30:14):
There. Yeah, there's definitely a lot out
there. And, and I know it's hardbecause I again, it depends, but
it's definitely a complicatedprocess. But a will make things
simpler.
Lauren Bird (30:23):
Yeah, I feel woefully underprepared. Like,
Cadeem Lalor (30:26):
Yeah, same.
Lauren Bird (30:26):
Well, thank you so much for coming in-
Stephanie Battista (30:28):
You're welcome.
Lauren Bird (30:28):
-and giving us this whole breakdown.
Stephanie Battista (30:30):
Yes. Thank you for having me. Um, Cadeem,
get a will.
Cadeem Lalor (30:33):
I will, I will.
Bethan Moorcraft (30:37):
And that was Half Banked. If you liked this
episode, be sure to subscribe,rate and review us on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you'relistening to this podcast.
Cadeem Lalor (30:45):
Special thanks to executive producer Samantha
Emann and producers KevinHamilton, Jenny Potter, Shane
Murphy, James Battiston, MarieAlcober and technical producer
Muhammad Tabish. This episodewas edited by Vocal Fry Studios.
If you ask young Canadians, why they don't have a
will, they'll probably tell you,they don't really have any
assets to pass down. No kids toinherit them. But if you stop
and think, everyone has peopleand possessions, they treasure
Hannah Chafe (00:15):
For a long time.
I've been sort of likecollecting stuff like I was a
kid that had the rockcollection, anything that has
any sort of sentimental value,like I would keep it. My mom
would call me a hoarder. And Iwas like, No, these are valuable
items.
Lauren Bird (00:27):
That's Hannah Chafe. She doesn't have a car or
a house of her own yet, but shehas spent her 24 years of life
acquiring a fairly vast andvaluable collection.
Hannah Chafe (00:38):
I have a lot because I like to collect a lot
of stuff. I'm like a littleGoblin, my biggest collection is
vintage clothing, mostly fromthe 30s to the 50s. I have some
like 70s 80s stuff, a couple of20s things. That's my biggest
collection that I started doingmostly in the pandemic, because
I got that CERB check. So Istarted buying a lot of vintage
(00:59):
clothes so that I could sellthem. But I haven't gotten
around to selling them yet. SoI've just kept them. I collect
old cookbooks really old, like50s. And earlier, I have one
from the 30s. That was like aadvertisement for a Kelvinator
refrigerator when refrigeratorswere still like a new thing. And
then I also collect swords,which is a smaller collection,
but still, most of them are Lordof the Rings. One is Game of
(01:22):
Thrones, and then a couple ofthem are just kind of like
vaguely medieval. I thinkthey're supposed to be like
Excalibur, but it's a vaguelymedieval style swords. And then
I have a couple of daggers andthings too.
Cadeem Lalor (01:33):
Before you ask.
Yes, she has Sting. She hasAnduril and she has a Valerian
steel digger from Game ofThrones. Altogether, she figures
her collection might be worthnearly $10,000. Not that her
parents know that. They thinkall of her "junk" is worthless.
And that's a problem because ifHannah were to die without a
will, the law says her parentswould inherit everything.
Hannah Chafe (01:49):
When I started thinking, oh, I want a will to
give us away it was when I wasgoing away on a trip to Italy,
and I hate planes. They'reterrifying. I think I'd only
been on the plane like once,maybe twice before that. And it
was like horrifying, I hate itso much. So I was like, I'm
gonna die on this plane ride. SoI was like, I'm gonna write a
will because I have all theseswords and I want my things to
go to specific people. And Iknow my friends want it. So then
(02:10):
I wrote up a will with my friendover like Skype or something.
And I was like, it needs you towrite this up for me. And we
were like 14, so I was like youneed to notarize it. I have
vintage clothing. I mean, I dohave a friend who also collects
vintage clothing. So that wouldprobably all go to her. Although
I'd probably put a stipulation,hey, everyone can come to the
house, pick up what they want.
And take it because the thoughtof especially my vintage
(02:31):
clothing, like just beingdonated into like a Value
Village, like would hurt me alot because then they'd be like,
oh, there's a rip in it. Intothe garbage. And it's like a
very rare like 1930 stress thatjust needed to be fixed. And
it's actually worth like $400and that would kill me a little
bit.
Lauren Bird (02:49):
But making sure the right items go to the right
people isn't the only reason toplan for your death. What about
your pets? The rights to yourcreative works? Your computer
and social media accounts? Andwhat if you have wishes for what
happens to your body?
Hannah Chafe (03:03):
Being embalmed, too, is like another added price
that seems so unnecessary to me.
Because you're just puttingtoxic chemicals into your body
to preserve it for what the fiveminutes that people may be
looking at your body and thenyou get put in the ground and
then that leeches the chemicalsinto the ground. Very bad for
the environment. I don't finddeath very, like, grim and I
just have like a pretty likeblase attitude towards death.
(03:26):
It's not something that'sterrifying to me. It would be
impossible but my dream for afuneral was to have a Viking
funeral and like actually have,be on a boat and set on fire
will be really cool. It wouldsuck that I wouldn't be there to
witness it. But it would bereally cool. I don't think
that's legal. I don't think youcan do that, unfortunately.
Lauren Bird (03:44):
Welcome to Half Banked. In this episode, will
they or won't they? 70% of youngCanadians aged 18 to 34 do not
have a will. That's according toa recent poll by Ipsos and RBC.
Why bother when you're young andhealthy with no kids, no spouse
and little wealth to your name?
That's why Hannah doesn't have awill yet despite her hordes
(04:06):
precarious fate.
Hannah Chafe (04:09):
I might wait maybe until I have like more of an
asset maybe like a house one dayor I'm like married and then
there's more things to likeactually put in. It's not like
people are gonna be fightingover my estate.
Cadeem Lalor (04:23):
Is she right not to worry about family and
fighting. What's the power ofattorney anyway? And there's a
Viking funeral really out of thequestion. Stay tuned and let's
find out.
Lauren Bird (04:39):
So, as we've been talking and preparing for this
episode, we've been thinkingabout what would happen to the
two of us if we, you know, Godforbid, got hit by a bus today
and died.
Cadeem Lalor (04:50):
That's why we have Stephanie Battista here, who's a
wills and estate lawyer based inToronto with O'Sullivan Estate
Lawyers and practicing nineyears in estates and trust.
Dealing with power of attorney,trust, estates. Hopefully she
can help us, you know de...
demystify the situation. Seeexactly what would happen most
likely to me since I don't havea will.
Stephanie Battista (05:06):
Well, thank you guys for having me here.
Cadeem, unfortunately, I...
sorry that you passed away.
We'll say yesterday.
Lauren Bird (05:13):
It was a tragic accident.
Stephanie Battista (05:14):
Tragic accident. So you don't have a
will. And now what happens, Iguess is the question, what
would happen to your estate?
Well, because you don't have awill, our laws will kick in. In
Ontario. It's all governed bythe Succession Law Reform Act,
and that sets out who isactually entitled to your
estate. And this might not bewho you want to get your estate,
(05:34):
whereas Lauren, you have yourwell, you could have said,
whoever it is, Cadeem, you don'thave that choice. And just to
kind of take you through what itis very briefly is, you know, if
you did have a spouse, it wouldgo to the spouse if you had the
children go to their children,but in this case, no spouse or
no trial. So it would go to yourparents that-
Cadeem Lalor (05:53):
I wonder, a common-law partner with that. Is
there any room for there to goto them at all?
Stephanie Battista (05:57):
Right? So no, unfortunately, not not in
Ontario, some people aresurprised that common-law
spouses are not treated the sameas married spouses. It does vary
depending on the province you'reliving in or the territory but
we're in Ontario right now. SoCadeem, unfortunately, if you
did have a common-law partner,the partner would get nothing,
it would bypass the partner andgo straight to your parents. And
(06:19):
that is just an unfortunate partof not having that will.
Cadeem Lalor (06:22):
I wonder about probate as well, if you could
just define that for ourlisteners.
Stephanie Battista (06:25):
Of course.
Yeah, so probate is a courtprocess, I guess, very generally
speaking, it's where the lastwill is deemed valid. So it's
the true last will of thedeceased, and the executor named
has that authority to act. Sowhy it's needed is there's a lot
of third parties. So forexample, a bank, you know, banks
not gonna let me come in and belike, Oh, I'm Lauren's executor,
give me her money. They're gonnawant to have proof of that
Cadeem Lalor (06:49):
An executor just generally being the person who
handles the will, correct?
Stephanie Battista (06:53):
Exactly. In Ontario, sometimes it's referred
Lauren Bird (06:53):
How complicated can that process be? Like, when you
to as an estate trustee. It'sgenerally called an executor.
Sometimes it's a trustee.
Unfortunately, we have a lot ofdifferent words, but it's all
the same role.
have to go through probate? Youtalked about the administrative
hurdles, what are those like?
Stephanie Battista (07:10):
Well, the first one is, so I guess
talking, if you don't have awill, what happens is, you know,
any court process, it's going tobe a long process, it's going to
be a little bit expensive. Soyou're already dealing with
that. But if you don't have awill, there is nobody who has
immediate authority to deal withyour assets to start the probate
process, somebody has to step upand do that. And so it's kind of
(07:32):
a catch 22. Because in order toprobate, you need to know the
person's assets and where theyare. But nobody's going to
release that information to youbecause you're not an executor.
And you can't be an executoruntil probates, you know,
receive, so you're kind of in adilemma where who steps up? And
then how do they go about it?
Lauren Bird (07:50):
Oh, my word that sounds like very complicated.
Stephanie Battista (07:53):
Definitely.
Lauren Bird (07:54):
Does any one have to step up?
Stephanie Battista (07:56):
So there is a priority. And I should say
that throughout Canada, it isbased on the province or the
territory. So I'm a lawyer inOntario, so I'll just speak
generally about Ontario, but itis pretty similar. So there is a
priority, and it is prettycommon sense. So spouse, if not
spouse than children, thenparents and so on, might not be
who you want to do it, or whoyou trust to do it. So that's
(08:18):
the problem again, withouthaving a will.
Lauren Bird (08:20):
Are there other assets that you need to consider
and think about other thanhousing or your money?
Stephanie Battista (08:26):
Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously,
your house is the big one, yourbank accounts are the big one.
But you know, sometimes peoplealso forget about registered
plans, like maybe you have anRSP through your work, or maybe
your work has a life insurancepolicy. So those are all things
that need to be part of yourestate plan. I think especially
with with younger people,personal effects, it can be
(08:47):
quite expensive. If you have agood collection, then who knows
what that cost would be. Andthen there's also digital
assets. It's definitely a newerarea. And you know, estate
practitioners are also trying toget our feet wet with it. So we
don't have all the answers, butthat's definitely something
that's going to continue to growespecially with, you know, our
younger clientele.
Lauren Bird (09:07):
Another thing like we talked about as young people
a lot is pets, overall, youknow, for babies and yet dog
dads. I mean, do you see a lotof people putting their pets in
their wills?
Stephanie Battista (09:17):
Definitely.
And a very famous case is KarlLagerfeld the Chanel guy. I
think his cat I think is like,Yeah, His cat is like a
multimillionaire.
Lauren Bird (09:29):
I follow her on Instagram.
Stephanie Battista (09:32):
I mean, a pet cannot legally own assets. I
think that is pretty, you know,understandable. But you could
set aside a trust. So you know,you would name my friend to
watch Fluffy and set aside thisamount of money for Fluffy. So
we do see that. It is what itis. And it's good. I think you
should have a contingency planfor your furry friends. You
(09:53):
know.
Cadeem Lalor (09:53):
I guess I was also wondering, because I have a pet.
I know this sort of. I feel likethe sort of like the millennial
dependent the most common one.
But I think in my case, it willdefinitely still fall to my
girlfriend in this case, becauseshe got it before she met me. So
I think I'm not included withthat piece of it, which is kind
of a thing, a big thing formillennials now. But also I have
creative works, where the rightsare kind of at the moment held
by basically whatever onlinepublication has them, and then
(10:15):
they would revert afterwards. Soit's like, they don't have a
will though the rights revert tome, but I'm not there kind of
what is the process for kind ofgetting copyright over those
works,
Stephanie Battista (10:24):
Right. So it would revert to I mean, it
depends on obviously what thecontract says, but it would
revert to your estate. Andagain, you need somebody to
administer that estate. So itwould fall into the executor to
deal with it, it would just beanother, it is treated just like
another asset that you wouldhave. I think sometimes,
especially with young people,they tend to see assets as a
bank account, you know, a house,but there's definitely more than
(10:47):
that, that is an asset of yours,that maybe you didn't consider
that you had.
Lauren Bird (10:51):
So we talked to Hannah, she has a lot of
interesting collections.
Collections of swords andvintage clothing. Do you see
that a lot like people wantingto add their collections into
their will, make sure certainthings go to certain people?
Stephanie Battista (11:04):
Definitely, I mean, again, that's an asset,
right? So it goes beyond just abank account, I mean, your
collection of swords and vintageclothing, which is sounds really
cool. Um, those are assets ofhers, and the will could
determine how it's distributed.
Otherwise, it just falls in tothe default distribution that we
you know, talked about it wouldgo to a spouse or a child or
failing that a parent. So in awill you could actually say...
(11:26):
so I sorry, I know nothing aboutswords, but let's just say like,
sword one, to Lauren, and swordtwo to Cadeem. So you could
actually set that out in yourwill, without a will again, you
know, could be a free for all.
And I will say with personalexperience, these personal
effects can be the mostemotionally charged items and
(11:48):
could cause again, maybe fightsamong loved ones.
Cadeem Lalor (11:51):
That's interesting you mentioned that, because I
think she mentioned, no one'sgoing to fight over things. But
I guess there are cases ofpeople sort of being blindsided
or, you know, among the estateby how tense things can get.
Stephanie Battista (12:00):
Exactly. And I think, you know, we all live
in that perfect world where myfriends, my family, they're not
going to fight but it happens.
And I think people forget theemotional aspect of it like they
lost a loved one. Maybe your momhad during your lifetime has had
zero interest in your swordcollection. But then now you've
passed away and maybe your momdoes want something and but you
want to give to someone else. SoI think don't underestimate the
(12:23):
importance of dividing yourassets and don't I guess,
overestimate that people aregonna get along on your death.
beneficiarydoesn't get anything additional.
So sword A is going to Laurenand on Hanna's death, sword A is
(12:46):
not in existence, then you'renot getting anything.
Lauren Bird (12:51):
I don't get another item to compensate?
Stephanie Battista (12:52):
No, you don't get another sword.
Lauren Bird (12:56):
So what about like the cost of getting a will
versus not getting one? Like howmuch money could your
beneficiaries be saddled with byhaving to go through the probate
process?
Stephanie Battista (13:07):
Right. So there's a couple different ways
to look at it. So one thing Iwill note with the probate
process is that even if you havea will, you still might have to
go through the probate process.
It depends on what type ofassets you are, and if a third
party requires it. So it's notso much avoiding the probate
process, because that mighthappen regardless. It's the cost
leading up to getting there. Soyou're probably spending more in
(13:30):
legal fees when you don't have awill just because there's a
little bit more legwork thatneeds to be done before you even
apply for probate. And then alsojust time and energy, I think
that's sometimes a hidden cost.
If your loved ones don't knowwhere to even start, they might
be overwhelmed and they mighthave to seek you know,
professional assistance to helpwith locating assets, writing to
(13:53):
every single bank rating toevery single insurance company
and trying to figure things out.
So that could add up. I thinkit's some of those hidden costs.
Going back to probate though,that's like a 50/50 thing
because if you do have a willthere is a chance you could
avoid probate but so I don'tknow it's very much it depends
but but I think it's more thecosts leading up to probate that
you need to think about.
Lauren Bird (14:15):
Okay, interesting.
Man also a lot of time a like ifyou have to write to all of
these banks to locate yourassets. Oh.
Cadeem Lalor (14:22):
That's like months, at least.
Stephanie Battista (14:24):
Months? And that's if you get replies. I
don't think banks are always notI'm not against any banks,
whoever's listening, butsometimes they're slow to reply
right? If they reply, a lot morework for your loved ones. I
think that's the main takeaway.
Cadeem Lalor (14:38):
We were also wondering because we want to
touch on one of Hannah's mostdire questions, you might not
get it often. We were wonderingwhat the legality is of a Viking
funeral.
Stephanie Battista (14:48):
You know what, so I, oh, I have to plead
with him on this one. I'm notsure it's legal in Canada. I'm
gonna make an assumption thatit's not but I might have to do
some research into that. I don'tknow for sure I have not had a
client ask for one yet. Butdoesn't mean I won't have a
client one day. So I shouldprobably research that answer
(15:09):
and let you know.
Lauren Bird (15:10):
Do you ever get like odd funeral requests in
your wills?
Stephanie Battista (15:13):
Definitely.
We've had people who want, youknow, very specific parties at
whatever expense. You know, I'vehad people who want to plant
trees that in this specificlocation, I've had people who
maybe want to explore otheropportunities outside of Canada
with being frozen, I don't know.
So yeah, like frozen burial. Andso it's just a matter of, you
(15:34):
know, trying to figure out howto incorporate that into the
will. For our purposes, though,I one thing I do want to know,
it is good to have your funeralwishes in your will. But wills
are sometimes read after thefuneral. So just as a you know,
a little heads up, if you want aViking funeral, if you want to
be frozen, you know, let yourloved ones know, just because it
(15:54):
could be too late.
Lauren Bird (15:56):
'Cus the funeral could happen. And then they open
the well. And yeah, I Oh, youshould have done this.
Stephanie Battista (16:00):
Exactly. I mean, not all the time, but just
it's not guaranteed the will isread first.
Cadeem Lalor (16:05):
I'm actually wondering as well, do you
recommend or are theresituations where you do or don't
recommend using an onlineservice for it?
Stephanie Battista (16:11):
That's a great question. And I think
especially nowadays, it's easy,it's there. And I do caution
clients, there is a little bitof you get what you pay for with
it. Some of the online servicesare not great. That being said,
I think they've made greatimprovements. I think there's a
couple out there that wereactually created by estate
lawyers. So I mean, I wouldstill caution clients against
(16:34):
it. I mean, if you have to havesomething, I would say it's
better than nothing. But apoorly done one could really
also cause problems. And atleast with the lawyer, you know,
it's gonna get done properly,you know, it's valid. And also
the lawyer can give you planningideas, there might not be
something you're aware of liketo go back to your other point
about an, a dependent you didn'trealize, you know, that's for
(16:56):
the lawyer to explore with youand let you know what the
options are and what yourrequirements are. An online
will's not going to do that.
Again, if it means having awill, I would say do it for
maybe a bandaid solution, but Iwouldn't necessarily rely on
them for long term.
Lauren Bird (17:11):
Are there things that people do miss a lot like
that they don't think about interms of creating there will?
Stephanie Battista (17:16):
Definitely yeah, I was like, where should
we start? I mean, going back tothe online will. I had a
situation a few years ago nowwhere the deceased made it
online well, and she left it tothree friends. But she just said
to my three friends, X,Y and Z.
She didn't say in what division?
So you assume it's equally butit doesn't actually say equally.
(17:38):
And no one thought about it.
Like it didn't turn out to be anissue. But I'm just thinking
like, if one of those friendswanted to say, hey, wait a
minute, she loved me more. I'mgetting three, three quarters of
this, like could that friendhave done that? So that's one
thing that, you know, kind ofcircling back to the online
will, but in terms of what youforget about just really all
your assets, you know how todistribute them? I think
(17:59):
sometimes people aren't tooknowledgeable of like, what
common law versus a spouse isand who has an obligation to
your state, even if they're notin the will?
Cadeem Lalor (18:10):
Is there any sort of thing that you notice that
should not be included in awill, that should be done
verbally as opposed to incontract?
Stephanie Battista (18:16):
That's a great question. I mean, it never
hurts to have it in the willlike the funeral wishes, even
though we do say tell your lovedones, it also doesn't hurt to
have it in the will. Some of thethings you may not want to
include is it's more like forprivacy reasons. So if you go
through probate, your will doesbecome part of the public
record. So if you have a longwinded answer about why you're
(18:39):
cutting out one child, and hereare all the reasons, well, then
anyone could technically go andsee your will and see that. So
sometimes we do say, you know,there's something called like a
letter of wishes that you canmake with your will to separate
document, it's not asenforceable as well, but it's
just to set out you know, toyour loved ones, what you were
thinking about with thedistribution of your will, and
(18:59):
that could be kept outside theprobate application and just go
to the loved ones.
Lauren Bird (19:04):
That's so juicy, though.
Stephanie Battista (19:05):
I know, right? I've never seen one. I
mean, I would love to have likegone to the court record, like
look through that.
Lauren Bird (19:10):
I bet there're some good ones.
Stephanie Battista (19:11):
There must be because like sometimes you'll
have like an omission clause.
Like I acknowledge that I'm notincluding my son. But then the
client wants to go one stepfurther and explain why and I'm
like, don't do it. Just leave itbe like you're already causing
emotional strife. Like let's notworry about that.
Lauren Bird (19:28):
Do you find people cut people out a lot?
Stephanie Battista (19:31):
You can, I wouldn't say a lot, but it is,
you know, you are allowed toaside from some cases, including
like spouses and dependents, youknow, it is what you want to do.
That's why having a will'simportant versus not having a
well because the law dictateswhat to do with your stuff when
you don't have a will but a willis really your last wishes. And
it's not always juicy whenpeople cut out family members.
(19:52):
Sometimes it could just be thatsomebody else maybe needs a
little bit more. You know,someone might a child might be
established and have their ownfinances and really, their
sibling needs a little bit moreof a helping hand. So it's not
always juicy. Yeah, I will sayin my line of work, I have not
had that many juicy cases,unfortunately. Or I guess
fortunately, I don't know,
Cadeem Lalor (20:12):
I guess one thing I want to touch on because like,
as a term power of attorney doescome up a lot if we're able to
kind of explain exactly whatthat means.
Stephanie Battista (20:18):
Right. So a power of attorney, it's an often
overlooked document, but it isseparate from your will. So A
will just to take it back a bita will is something that only
comes in effect on your death.
So it's a document that sets outyour wishes, but you know, it
has no effect while you'realive, obviously, you die, then
it comes to effect. Power ofAttorney, however, is something
that is during your lifetime. Sothis would be there are two
(20:41):
types of powers of attorney,there's one for property and one
for personal care. And they comeinto play if you're incapable of
managing your property, andhandling your personal care. So
property deals with obviouslyall financial assets, you know,
how to deal with your money, howto deal with your house. And
then personal care is, you know,day to day health and nutrition.
Lauren Bird (21:01):
And are the two clearly labeled, like I'm
sitting here wondering which onedo I have?
Stephanie Battista (21:06):
Yeah, they should be clearly labeled. If
they were done correctly,typically, they are done in
tandem. So if you went to alawyer, and if your dad's a
lawyer, I'm assuming that youdid get both. But that'd be
something to check on, you knowthat you have one for property
and one for personal care,because they are different
rules.
Lauren Bird (21:26):
That's interesting.
How important is it to have likea power of attorney?
Stephanie Battista (21:30):
So something that people don't know is that
if you don't have one, and youunfortunately, become incapable,
somebody has to apply to thecourt for a guardianship. So
your loved ones would have to,you know, again, do a court
process, show the court howthey're going to manage your
assets, you know, they're goingto have to keep their accounts
updated with the court, it's along process. In my experience,
(21:53):
it can be expensive, especiallyif you have two people fighting
over the guardianship. And itcould have all been avoided by
just having a power of attorneydocument.
Cadeem Lalor (22:02):
So mainly, you mentioned if you're physically
incapable, but are there anyother situations where it's
still kind of a vital document?
Stephanie Battista (22:07):
Right? So it's actually when you're
mentally incapable or physicallyincapable. So it's more just if
you don't have any capacity tomake those decisions on your
behalf.
Lauren Bird (22:17):
And how do you choose a power of attorney.
Stephanie Battista (22:19):
Right. So that I mean, it comes down to
who you trust, it's very similarto you know, deciding who is a
great executor. Um, soultimately, it should be someone
that you trust, someone that islikely alive or like able to do
it. So again, maybe someonearound your age, it doesn't need
to be the same people. So, who'syour power of attorney for
property does not need to be thesame as your attorney for
(22:42):
personal care, because it's verydifferent set of skills. So
property, you might want toappoint someone who has some
financial experience is capableof doing the day to day banking
and all of that. Personal caredoesn't necessarily need to be
like that. It could just besomeone who understands what
your wishes are for your life.
And anything downtime, evenhygiene, daily hygiene, like I
can get very specific.
Lauren Bird (23:04):
No way.
Stephanie Battista (23:05):
Yes.
Lauren Bird (23:06):
So like, you set out those guidelines.
Stephanie Battista (23:08):
You can set up those guidelines, and you can
do like a living will or aletter of wishes. And I've seen
people in the past say that, youknow, if I become incapable I
want to get my hair done, everyweek. Like, they'll put that in
there. Just so the attorneyknows what your wishes are.
Lauren Bird (23:23):
Oh, I love that.
Stephanie Battista (23:24):
Yeah, it's kind of nice.
Lauren Bird (23:25):
Yeah.
Cadeem Lalor (23:25):
I didn't know it could get that specific. So
that's definitely good to know,I guess I should get on it.
Stephanie Battista (23:29):
At your age, you might not need to go that
specific at this. You know,hopefully, that doesn't happen.
It's usually, you know, olderclientele that maybe get used to
the day to day details, buthaving just the document in
place is definitely the rightfirst step.
Lauren Bird (23:41):
I feel like I would try and treat myself better than
I do now.
Cadeem Lalor (23:44):
I think so, too.
Lauren Bird (23:45):
Get my nails done every week.
Cadeem Lalor (23:47):
I'd be big on the self care at that point, so-
Stephanie Battista (23:48):
Right? like just all my money.
Beneficiaries.
Lauren Bird (23:52):
I'm gonna look the best I've ever looked.
Stephanie Battista (23:54):
Exactly.
Lauren Bird (23:56):
One of the things we talked to Hannah, about like
that, you know, she wasconcerned about was the cost of,
you know, going to a lawyer andgetting a will. How expensive
can it get?
Stephanie Battista (24:05):
That... I mean, it depends. I know, I've
kind of used that answer a lot.
It's the typical lawyer answer.
It really depends on where yougo. One thing that's great is
that there are a lot of lawyersin Canada, there's a lot of
lawyers in Ontario, and thereare a lot of good lawyers. So
really, you have to maybe do abit of research, it's not going
to, you know, your first Googlesearch is not going to
(24:26):
necessarily be the person who'sthe right fit for you. So the
prices vary wildly. And you haveto look at your situation. You
know, if you're young, this isyour first will, your assets are
relatively simple. You don'tneed to go to the Bay Street
firm and you don't need to go tothe partner who is 50 plus years
of experience. They would do anamazing job but the fees might
(24:47):
not be in line with what you'rethinking. So it's just a bit of
doing a bit of research. Onething I also tell clients is,
yes, you're going to have to paymoney for this but look at it as
you know an ins- type ofinsurance. You you would pay car
insurance, if you had a car,you'd pay, you know, house
insurance, if you have a home,like this is just another thing
that you kind of have to putthat money in to make sure it's
(25:08):
done. And it's done. Right.
Lauren Bird (25:11):
And once you have it, do you keep it with you?
Like, where should you keep it?
Stephanie Battista (25:14):
Oh, that's such a good question. And
clients sometimes put it in theworst places ever, which I will
tell you about. It depends onsometimes the lawyer to I know
our firm will hold on to theoriginals in safekeeping in,
like, a locked, fireproof safe,but it's up to the clients
discretion on that. So sometimesthey don't want us to hold on to
(25:34):
it, and they want to hold it onto them themselves. So my thing
is what I always tell clients,if you do want to hold on to it
yourself, do not put it in asafety deposit box, because an
executor can't access it withouta will. But the will is in
there. So it's like again, likethe chicken and the egg like
what comes first. Don't put itin, you know a personal lockbox
(25:56):
that no one has the key to takegood care of it, like put it
with your safe papers, make sureit's somewhere private and
accessible by your executors notto be self serving, but leave it
with the lawyer. So that wouldbe my first suggestion.
Lauren Bird (26:09):
Like, should you tell people where it is just
your executors?
Stephanie Battista (26:12):
You should definitely let your executors
know. Whether or not you want tolet them know what's in the will
is going to be a private, youknow, that's a personal choice.
Sometimes it's better not to letthe beneficiaries know, because
your will might change in 10years, and they might not be
beneficiaries. And that's yourright to do it. So let the
executors know that, hey, I dida will. It's in safekeeping at
(26:32):
this lawyer's office, and ifanything happens to me, you
know, the executor knows whereto go.
Lauren Bird (26:38):
Yeah, they would have to know who your lawyer is
go to the office.
Stephanie Battista (26:41):
Right, I mean, that's obviously best case
scenario. If they don't knowthere are, you know, methods to
try and locate the will. So youcould put a notice out being
like, I'm looking for the willof this deceased person. And
hopefully, you know, thelawyers, all estate lawyers are
reading it and like, Oh, I knowthat person
Cadeem Lalor (26:58):
Kind of like a forum, almost?
Stephanie Battista (27:00):
Yeah, exactly.
Lauren Bird (27:01):
And once you have done it, how often should you
redo it, like you mentioned, 10years from now someone might not
be in your will.
Stephanie Battista (27:07):
Right. So my rule of thumb, tell my clients,
if they're listening, they'llknow what it is, you should be
reviewing it every three to fiveyears, not necessarily with a
lawyer, but you should bepulling it up reading it, making
sure it's still in line withwhat you want to do. There are
certain life events, however,that you know, does trigger an
(27:28):
update sooner changes in maritalstatus, children, grandchildren,
which would be years from nowhopefully, there have been more
updates before the grandchildrencome, you know, changes in your
assets, whether it's an increaseor decrease, and also changes in
your beneficiaries circumstance.
So whether it's removing them,or maybe Unfortunately, one of
them is in a tougher spot now.
(27:49):
So you might want to putprotective terms on their
inheritance. So those are kindof some of the triggering
points, but every three to fiveyears, please read it. You don't
have to go to the lawyer, butjust read it to make sure it's
what you want.
Cadeem Lalor (28:00):
I guess we also had the case that we're thinking
of, you know, this accidentaldeath at times, are you kind of
worth more in debt than youthought you would be Have you
ever come across those instancessomeone dies, due to say,
individual or companynegligence, and then there's
basically, there's a big payoutthat maybe might not have been
expected,
Stephanie Battista (28:15):
Right. So I mean, that's something that,
again, helps with a will becauseyou know, your executor is that
you have someone who is able todeal with it and handle it. And
if there's a lawsuit, forexample, they can take it on on
behalf of the estate. If moremoney comes in. I mean, it's
always a pleasant surprise.
Sometimes it's the oppositewhere there's less than what was
expected. But you know, itdoesn't change the distribution
(28:35):
plan of your will. Right? If youhave a will. And you say it's
divided in three shares. It'sjust that each person is going
to get a little bit more now.
But yeah, so I think it's a, Idon't wanna say to happy
surprise, but you know, it'sit's more, you know, sometimes-
Lauren Bird (28:49):
Silver lining.
Stephanie Battista (28:50):
-anyway, yeah. Silver lining. I guess
that's terrible. But it is, itis what it is.
Lauren Bird (28:55):
And we can't joke about death. What can you joke
about?
Stephanie Battista (28:57):
I know, right, exactly. My certainty.
Yeah.
Lauren Bird (29:01):
Exactly.
Stephanie Battista (29:04):
think that they have nothing, what's the
point, blah, blah, blah,nothing's going to happen to me.
You know, it's such a simpletask to do. And it's so
important because you areleaving your family and your
loved ones in a difficult place.
They're already emotional withthe loss of you. So you know,
try and make something at leastone thing easier for them. So I
(29:25):
do encourage a lot of youngpeople to think about a will,
it's something that isdefinitely more helpful than
not, I'll tell you that.
Lauren Bird (29:34):
It, like for your average millennial, how long do
you think it would take to youknow, go and sit down with a
lawyer and actually go throughit?
Stephanie Battista (29:40):
It does not take that long at all. I will
say the reasons wills typicallytake longest because of the
client because of their own lifelike they have a hard time
taking the time out to meet withthe lawyer. Usually, at least in
my practice, the longest part isprepping for the meeting and
doing the first meeting. Onceyou get over that hurdle. It's
smooth sailing good. justreading the draft and hopefully
(30:01):
being happy with it and signingit. So, you know, depends on the
capacity of the lawyer, but itcould take a few weeks could
take a few months. So it's not along process. It doesn't have to
be a long process, I should say,Wow.
Lauren Bird (30:12):
I feel like I've learned so much today.
Stephanie Battista (30:14):
There. Yeah, there's definitely a lot out
there. And, and I know it's hardbecause I again, it depends, but
it's definitely a complicatedprocess. But a will make things
simpler.
Lauren Bird (30:23):
Yeah, I feel woefully underprepared. Like,
Cadeem Lalor (30:26):
Yeah, same.
Lauren Bird (30:26):
Well, thank you so much for coming in-
Stephanie Battista (30:28):
You're welcome.
Lauren Bird (30:28):
-and giving us this whole breakdown.
Stephanie Battista (30:30):
Yes. Thank you for having me. Um, Cadeem,
get a will.
Cadeem Lalor (30:33):
I will, I will.
Bethan Moorcraft (30:37):
And that was Half Banked. If you liked this
episode, be sure to subscribe,rate and review us on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you'relistening to this podcast.
Cadeem Lalor (30:45):
Special thanks to executive producer Samantha
Emann and producers KevinHamilton, Jenny Potter, Shane
Murphy, James Battiston, MarieAlcober and technical producer
Muhammad Tabish. This episodewas edited by Vocal Fry Studios.
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