E53 -Unlocking the Healing Potential of Psychedelic Journeys with Angela DeCraene

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey friend, welcome to the halfway to dead podcast.
I'm your host, jen Lovell.
Listen, you and I have reachedthat age where we are done with
the bullshit.
We know that midlife is ourchance to flip the script and
experience life on our own terms.
It's time to reconnect with ourhigher selves and reclaim our
inner peace.
Are you ready with an openheart and an open mind?

(00:26):
Awesome, you're in the rightplace.
Hop in and ride shotgun with meon this midlife spiritual
journey.
Hey, hey guys, welcome back.
I want to kickstart this by justgiving a shout out to all of my
friends in Germany and Norway.
Guys, I see you out there.
My numbers are going up inGermany and Norway and I

(00:48):
couldn't be more excited.
So thanks for listening youguys.
I also want to start today witha little disclaimer, because if
you guys are out there thinkingand saying, hey, this Jen on
Halfway to Dead podcast is outtelling everybody to do illegal
substances, cut that shit out.
No, I am not.
I am not All right.
Listen to the disclaimer at theend of the episode and I'm
going to give you a little bitof it right now.

(01:09):
I am simply bringing youinformation so that you can
learn and make conscious,educated decisions for your life
.
Okay, this is all forentertainment purposes, you
don't have to do anything I'mtalking about.
But maybe you want to, maybethis is for you.
That's why I'm bringing allthis to you guys, okay.
So disclaimer not giving outmedical advice, blah, blah, blah

(01:33):
.
You get it Now that we got thatpaperwork out of the way.
So today we're diving in alittle bit more to the healing
potential of psychedelicmedicines and these psychedelic
journeys as a part of yourhealing, your spiritual journey,
using it therapeutically.
Okay, we're not talkingrecreational here, we're talking
therapeutically.
So today I have with me AngelaDeCrane.

(01:56):
So Angela is an explorer atheart who approaches both life
and work with deep curiosity.
As an entrepreneur and atrained psychotherapist
currently completing herdoctorate in integral and
transpersonal psychology, she'sresearching the healing
potential of psychedelicmedicines.
It's a work that bridgesancient wisdom with modern
science.

(02:16):
So Ange collaborates with bothtwo-legged and four-legged
friends in her work and togethershe and her partner in the deep
work have developed a holisticpreparation and integration
model for psychedelic journeys.
So you know who I'm talkingabout her partner.
If you don't, you need to goback and listen to episode 51
with Tammy Janelle.
So they're both here with ustoday for this one.

(02:37):
So we have some really greatconversation, you guys.
But Ange's passion really liesin helping people not just have
transformative experiences butmeaningfully integrate those
insights into their lives.
So she self-describes herselfas a forever student and a
traveler.
Angela is drawn to the bigquestions about consciousness,
healing and what it means tolive fully.

(02:58):
Whether she's working withclients in some capacity or
exploring new frontiers, she'salways seeking the deeper spaces
where real transformationhappens.
So, anne, she shares her storyof what brought her to where she
is in her spiritual journey,how these psychedelics have
helped her, and then she gets alittle bit more because she is

(03:19):
working in her doctorate in this.
She's a smart little cookie, soshe helps us understand exactly
what the psilocybinspecifically.
We also talk a little MDMA, butspecifically the psilocybin,
what it's actually doing in yourbrain, how it's helping.
We talk more about after ajourney, how we need to care for
ourselves in the weeksfollowing.
So we really just finish upgiving you a whole view into

(03:43):
psychedelic therapies,psychotopically psilocybin, and
I hope you guys get more out ofthis.
I learned even more this timetoo.
Let's get in there, becausethis is super interesting stuff.
Okay, you guys, we're back.
I promised you a part two.
You guys have already listenedto Tammy's episode and if you
have not, you got to go back andlisten to it.
And today Tammy's partner, ange, is here.

(04:03):
So you know it's Angela, butwe're all friends here today.
You guys listening to us, we'recalling her Ange, we're going
Ange today.
Okay, so we're going to get alittle deeper into the
psilocybin journey, psychedelictherapy practices, all of that
with her.
But first I really want to justhear from her a little bit of
her story.

(04:23):
We love hearing the stories,right, you guys?
It makes us feel less alone inour journey.
So, hey, Ange, hey, so I wantto talk a little bit about your
journey.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
So I think you know a fair starting point is my
journey with faith andspirituality.
It sounds like you've got some.
I do.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Some folks out here.
Yeah, I've talked.
Yeah, you guys all know I'vetalked about my religious
deconstruction process, but I'mstill in.
I don't know if we'll ever bedone with it.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
Yeah, right.
So I grew up in an evangelicalChristian household, both very
involved in the church world andthey brought me up in a very,
very strict and rigid religioushome.
So I was raised in thatenvironment and when I was 17, I

(05:12):
went with my church's youthgroup to South Africa on a
mission trip.
And kind of like, had my mindblown in a couple of ways and
came home.
So I finished high school anddecided to take my first year
off from going to college and dosome traveling.
So I ended up in South Africaagain for a while, and then in

(05:36):
Portugal and Spain, and in thatone year of my life my eyes just
started to open up to, okay,there is a much greater world
out here and these values andviews and beliefs that I grew up
with just don't seem to holdeverything that I'm experiencing
.
Okay, so you were questioningyour background.

(05:57):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
I think my questioning began, atleast in a noticeable way, and
so I spent a good part of mylate teens, early mid-20s, in a
very active process with that.
Actually, I became reallyintrigued by other religions,
other philosophical systems andstarted to look at what is the

(06:21):
golden thread that weavesthrough all of these, because it
started to become clear that insome way all of these things
are pointing to the same thing.
But you know, people have putthem into these boxes to try to
you know for a variety ofreasons, but try to box in this
one concept or like these largerconcepts that are shared by

(06:45):
every major religion, yes, everylike More similarities than
differences.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
I always say Absolutely yeah, we're all
fighting about some stupid stuff.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
And we want to like.
Religion creates a lot ofdivision.
There's a lot of judgment anddivision in there.
So, yeah, I spent a lot of mylike in college.
I was taking, you know, all ofthe spirituality and world
religion classes I couldpossibly sink my teeth into.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
You're learning all of these things but you're still
in a spiritual closet Likeyou're not like your parents,
and the world is not knowing yet.
Or were you vocal about it?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
I was vocal about the things I was questioning.
There wasn't much space for itin my family or in that
religious community.
It was a lot of like.
There was a lot of concern forme.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
A lot of praying for you, girl.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:33):
A lot of prayer circles.
Be careful.

Speaker 3 (07:36):
Ange.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Come on over, we're going to lay our hands on you.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh, the laying of the hands.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
I think that's a concept that's actually gotten
stuck in religion in a way,because my actually that was one
of the first entry points toexploring like this kind of
golden thread was.
I went to a Reiki session.
I went and had a session withsomeone who did Reiki and, as
this person is like puttingtheir hands near or on my body,

(08:06):
it clicked.
I was like wait a minute, thisis the concept of laying,
putting your hands.

Speaker 1 (08:13):
Right Transferring energy.
Yes, yeah, exactly, and whenyou.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
I mean, we could go on and on about this.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
No, and that's the thing.
There are so many similarities.
They call it somethingdifferent in the church.
But it's just all energy.

Speaker 2 (08:25):
It's energy, and I think, when you look at what are
described as the real teachingsof Jesus, he was a very
metaphysical dude.
He was a very I was listeningto somebody who was talking
about these real teachings ofJesus and he pointed out a verse
in the Bible that I hadn'tactually it had never caught my

(08:46):
attention before, but it sayssomething like and Jesus went
east to the east and there areeight I think it's eight or 13
years of his life.
There's a big chunk of it.
It's a big chunk of his lifethat is missing from any kind of
documentation.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
He was on a spiritual journey.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
That's what I think To the east is what the original
document says, and so there'sspeculation.

Speaker 1 (09:10):
He was hanging out in Egypt, yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
He was 13 and he went to the east, so in these years
where you're really learning andyou're really forming your own
practice.
He's in Eastern cultures.
He's in Buddhist and Taoistcultures, where he is spending
these really formative years.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
So when people are saying well, jesus said do as I
do, guys, we're on a spiritualjourney, we are as I do, we're
doing exactly as.
Jesus did Tell me this.
Was there a moment in youradult life when you were like
I'm not religious anymore?
I don't consider myself aChristian technically, I am more
open and my beliefs haveshifted.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
A moment that stands out to me was in my early
twenties.
I was in South Africa in apoverty alleviation village.
I was volunteering there andthe folks who are running that
village and still do are theirfamily and their Buddhist, and
they are a safe haven.

(10:18):
They're called Batsabelo, whichtranslates to safe haven, place
of safety.
They are a place of safety forany living creature, human and
non-human, that needs a place tobe safe.
And I'm here in this villageand I'm just there to help.
I'm just there to participatein their project and what

(10:39):
they're doing, and I'm in thisdeconstruction process.
I'm like actively pullingthings apart, and I had this
moment.
So this is a pivotal moment forme, this moment where I was like
there is just no way on theplanet I can say that I follow a
religion that says these peoplego to hell.
Yeah, I cannot do that.

(11:00):
No, there's just no way on theplanet.
And it didn't make it like andit wasn't like.
I mean, for a while I wentthrough a process of rejection.
Sure, I went through like ohyeah, no, no, no, no, no, no,
and then moved later into like aprocess of integration, pulling
out the untruths of religionbut keeping what is actually the

(11:22):
heart of these things that havebeen, you know, layered over
and over and over.
But that was a moment where Iwas like this is absolutely
impossible, it is impossible, Icannot do that anymore, I can't
do it.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
Yeah, okay, yeah.
And your family said cool.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
I actually really never talked with my family, you
know, as I started to just livein a way that was different,
you know, stopped attendingchurch and stopped doing all of
the things that went along withthat.
The community that I had formed, you know, the larger community
of friends and mentors thatstarted to, you know, fall off

(11:58):
that.
That is when it probably becamea little more clear, without me
saying much at all, that okay,ange is going in a different
direction here.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
Okay, you know, yeah, so it was obvious to everyone.
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Yeah, it was slowly, especially like my closest
people, because my closestpeople were the people that I'm
having these open conversationswith and pulling this apart and
as much as they care about meand love me and knew that that
was always an aspect of mypersonality is I'm going to dig
in really really deep andquestion and challenge and roll

(12:34):
things around.
So some people had a littlemore space for me than others,
but for sure, when I reached apoint of like, no, that is just
not the path I follow, it waslike a divorce and also I have
never been more grateful forsomething in my life.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
You know, holy cow, yes, all right.
So you just got done sayingthat you like to dig in, you
like to dig in deep to stuff Ido.
So it makes sense that you're atherapist.
Yeah, that's kind of what we goto therapy for is to dig in
deep.

Speaker 3 (13:04):
So I would assume if you didn't like that.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
It would be a bad profession for you.
So tell me about that part ofthe journey.
Were you a therapist right awayout of college?

Speaker 2 (13:12):
No, not really.
I thought I actually would gostraight into a PhD program.
I thought I would get mymaster's go straight into a PhD
program and do research andteach at a university.
But part of my master's programrequirement was I had to do a
practicum, so I needed toactually do counseling somewhere

(13:34):
.
And it felt fine.
I was like, okay, sure, I'll dothat.
Well, I had no idea how much Iwas going to love it.
I actually was like, oh my gosh,this is very cool, Like I'm
loving getting in here and beingwith people in a very real way
which was like so critical atthat juncture in my life,
because I'm exploring the depthsof myself, right, and these,

(13:58):
all of these belief systems thatI've been brought up in.
And now I'm getting to sit withpeople in their truth, because
people come to therapy typicallyto tell you their truth, yes,
and work through the stuff, yeah, let's be together in our truth
, yes.
And so it drew me in in a waythat I was surprised by.
The further I got into justdoing the therapeutic work, the

(14:21):
more I fed that part of me thatlikes to learn.
I just was diving into, youknow, modalities and learning
the work in a deeper way, youknow.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
I saw in your bio you are going back for your-.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
My doctorate.
I'm finishing it right now.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Her doctorate in integral and transpersonal
psychology.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, what is that?

Speaker 1 (14:39):
Tell everybody what that is.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
So integral like really the focus is on, you know
, like a holistic system,understanding the human as whole
in ourselves.
And part of something holistic,and the transpersonal piece, is
the understanding of ourselvesas something that's beyond just
what you see, taste, touch andfeel.

(15:03):
You know, yeah, Beyond theperson.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
Okay, so it's perfect , it's like a perfect fit.
So I'm assuming through all ofthe 18 years of therapy you've
grown within that too.
Currently you implement a lotof different modalities that
bring a little bit of thatspiritual piece in.
You know, even when Tammy and Ihad talked, we talked about
internal family systems you guyslove to use.

(15:26):
So maybe just educate us alittle bit on what that means.
Sure, sure, because when youhear internal family systems you
might go straight to what wethink of as family systems.

Speaker 3 (15:36):
My brother, my sister , my mom my dad.

Speaker 1 (15:38):
No, that's not what this family system is right.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
No, this is your own internal, like within ourselves.
So the model, the theory,essentially stipulates that we
all have different parts ofourselves, so like if you think
about just even the way you talkabout yourself in your daily
life, you might say oh, part ofme really wants to do that, part
of me is afraid to do that.

(16:01):
We're always pointing to it insome way, shape or form, and so
the idea is that we're born withdifferent parts of ourselves,
different aspects of what makesup who we are, and the model in
a therapeutic way.
The emphasis is onself-leadership.
So the reason it works so wellin the work that we do together

(16:22):
is that we're holding space forpeople to really learn to
connect with themselves moredeeply, to connect with you.
Know your own self-leadership,your soul.
You're not here to you know,learn from us, so to speak.
We're here to help point youtoward you.
You know, we're just assistingin a process of pointing you

(16:43):
toward you.

Speaker 1 (16:44):
So in a spiritual woo-woo world, that would feel
like your higher self, yeah,okay, like your soul, your
higher self.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
You're connecting with that I think what we have
determined is that we don't saythat self is the same as soul.
Okay, soul is something farbeyond yourself.
In the system of internalfamily systems, the designation
of self can be very spiritual,but we are not calling that soul

(17:11):
, we're not interchanging that.
So, like in internal familysystems, that particular model
utilizes the language of self,self-leadership, and then you
have parts of yourself.
So I just want to make sure,like the designation for us is
in that model, it's self.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
But self is different than soul.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
You know the way I describe it.
In the devoted soul, work isself holds.
The key to soul.
Soul is the untouched,unburdened, unwounded, like when
we go, when we head back to theother side.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
That's our soul.
We're connecting, we're back inour pure soul form and then
when we incarnate, I'm justspitballing here, I don't know
what I'm talking about.
Everybody, I love your spitball.
So what I'm thinking is wereturn to the other side, we're
in God's love, okay, we are ourcomplete soul again in that
moment.
But our self, our higher self,we're trying to tap into as

(18:11):
humans in this incarnation, andour self, that's different,
that's just in our human form.
Correct, the connection we have.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Correct.
I mean you're manifest in thisbody right, and so your self is
part of your personality.

Speaker 1 (18:27):
So when we're in these internal family systems,
it's us understanding ourself.
If I close my eyes andvisualize, is this a little
group Like here I am when I wasfive.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Let me talk to my five-year-old.
And now I need to talk to myteenager.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
And now I need to talk to my middle-ager.
When we're visualizing thingsand working through things,
that's part of it.
Like, what do we need to tapinto today?

Speaker 2 (18:51):
For sure, For sure.
And, like our parts, often willshow up somatically.
So when I'm doing a session Iusually am starting with you
know, feeling into your body.

Speaker 1 (19:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
What part of you needs your attention today and
often, when you really kind ofquiet and tune in and you just
get curious, which thisself-energy concept is
understood by the guy whodeveloped this model.
His name is Dick Schwartz andhe developed this the eight Cs
of self-energy, and so there arethings like compassion and

(19:24):
curiosity and calm, and so whenyou can connect with that state
it's like that state of beingcalm and curious.
There's no agenda.
When you connect with thatstate of being, that state of
self, then parts of you that areready to maybe connect and need
some attention from you beginto show up.

(19:45):
And they will show up maybe asa felt sense, or maybe as an
image or a message, or there'sso many ways that they can pop
up, so it's about differentaspects of yourself.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
I guess we have versions of ourself, right yeah,
and so sometimes we need to dowork on a certain version, sure.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, you can go in any way, that's.
You know, everything can be atrailhead in.

Speaker 1 (20:10):
So if you showed up today.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
If we were doing work together today and you showed
up and you said I would need toconnect with the parent part of
me, yeah, Then that would be theway in.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
That would be the way in.
Okay, so how does this methoddiffer from more mainstream?
I guess type of therapies.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Yeah, it's much more like the connection is between
you and you yourself and yourparts, versus you and a
therapist.
So in my work my clients aren'tcoming in and just like telling
me the problems of their weekand we're just talking about the
problems of their week theymight come in with okay, this
happened this week and it wasreally difficult.

(20:49):
Okay, we're now going to workbetween yourself.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
We're going to dig deeper into that.
Yeah, we're not just going totalk back and forth.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Focused on creating helping a person create a deep
sense of trust and reliance onthemselves.
Person create a deep sense oftrust and reliance on themselves
, and it's a tool and a strategy.
It's a way of working that whenyou walk out of the therapy
office, you are able to connectwith yourself in that way in
your own home.
You know what I mean Like inyour daily life.

(21:17):
So it's less reliant on thetherapist.
It's much more of a way.
It's like teaching a way, a way.
Okay.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
So it sounds like this modality blends well with
spirituality.
Yeah, okay, yeah, because we'reon spiritual journeys here and
love me some traditionaltherapies, you guys out there.
But, like I said before, whenyou're ready to step it up, when
you're ready to dig deeper,when you get to that point in
your life where I got to makesome effing changes yeah,

(21:48):
because things aren't going well.
Yeah, I can't keep the statusquo going.
This seems like a good route togo.
Yeah, okay.
So you guys have teamed up, wehave Okay.
Yeah, because you're businesspartners.
Yeah, because you're businesspartners.
Yeah, okay.
All right, I had to clarifythat because when you first
started calling your partner, Ididn't know what the deal was.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Oh Well, I do love you too.
I love you too.

Speaker 1 (22:11):
You know, because in my world, you know, a lot of
times partners, your partner,your partner in life your lover?

Speaker 3 (22:19):
Sure sure, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
So just to clarify, when I keep saying, this is
Tammy's partner, businesspartner, business partner, and
we're also very good friends.
And good friends.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
For sure we're partners.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
All right, let's dig into what you guys do together.
So you guys know, tammy, if youhaven't listened got to go back
.
But if you haven't listened, wetalked about I had my soul
reading with Tammy One of thefirst stages of heading into
this journey.
If you're trying to dig deepand really get there and part of
it is working towards thesepsychedelic therapy journeys

(22:51):
there are different things youcan take.
Right, you guys focus onpsilocybin.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
I think when you and I spoke last time, I think
mentioned we started with MDMA,I think mentioned we started
with MDMA, you know and cameinto this originally and sort of
brought it back to our tribehere and we started working with
the MDMA.
We moved toward psilocybin asit is a traditional it's, you
know, a fungus plant medicine.

(23:19):
It's more natural, Whereas theMDMA is pharmaceutical.
Yeah, it's synthetic, Syntheticand also the coming out of that
medicine.
You're pretty grounded rightafter the session, whereas that
isn't really the case for MDMA.
Sometimes we've had people lagfor a couple weeks.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
Oh, okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:39):
Feet on the ground a couple weeks after the active
session right For us.
It feels safer.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
So back it up.
So, angela, what made you bringthis to everybody?
You brought this to the groupis what I'm hearing.
And so what went down that madeyou bring this to all your
friends, your people, your tribe?

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Okay, so the short backstory is I found this
documentary like God, probablylike 12 years ago now.
It was about DMT, which is oneof the active ingredients in
ayahuasca, or at least one ofthe plants that is part of the
ayahuasca brew.
It increases DMT, it has DMT init.

(24:19):
So you're like consuming DMT.
They're talking about it fromthe perspective of it being a
spiritual molecule.
So I'm stumbling on thisdocumentary.
I don't know what it's about,but I'm watching it.
I'm like, oh my gosh, this isabout psychedelics and it's
about psychedelics as aspiritual gateway, like a way
into deeper spirituality.

(24:40):
So I was like instantly verycurious and started going down
my own rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yes, what is this?
You know?

Speaker 2 (24:47):
I had never had any personal experiences with
psychedelics, so I was onlylearning about it from watching
and reading things.
And then fast forward.
I was actually at a Brene Browntraining and I meet this woman
there who, within 15 minutes ofmeeting each other, we were
already like telling each otherour life stories.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
Yeah, you just knew you were connected, we were like
instantly connected.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
We had a sole contract or something.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2 (25:13):
Something for sure.
There we're there for a weekdoing this training and, you
know, got to know each otherreally well.
Well, she lives up in theVancouver area.
So when we finished thetraining, we were like well,
when are we going to visit eachother?
So long and the short of it webecame really good friends.
And about a year after I mether, she calls me up one day and

(25:34):
she's like hey, ange, I want totalk to you about something,
but I'm not sure how you'regoing to feel about it.
So we can just like have anopen mind.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
I'm going to have a therapeuticMDMA session next month and
would you come up and sit for me?
Would you come participate?
And I was literally likejumping up and down in my house
because I was like you have noidea that this is my secret area

(25:58):
of interest.
Yeah, so fast forward I do.
I fly up the next month, get tosit in the room for her
experience, and just being aperson sitting in the room was
miraculous.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
I'm going to guess that the energy rippling off
that person is filling the room.
Because we are all energy right, so you don't even have to be
on the journey to feel thejourney in the room.

Speaker 2 (26:25):
I'm guessing, yeah, it is something really, really
special and really hard todescribe what that feels like.
So she has this really amazingexperience and the journey took
her to a really deep rootedplace within herself that there
were a lot of revelations forher.

(26:46):
And she's also a therapist.
She'd already been doing lotsof her own work oh sure, yeah.
But there was more in there, ohyeah.
And so she got to somethingwithin herself that had been
packed and tucked away realtight, Really mind blowing.
So maybe like two, three monthslater I was like, can I come do
my own session?
Yeah, they were connected withthe trials out of the University

(27:10):
of British Columbia.
There were trials happeningthere with MDMA, so flew up, had
my own session and wascompletely blown away.
Come home and I'm like Tam wegot to talk.
We got to get some journeysgoing Because of the work I had
previously done with Tammy, likejust in my own spiritual

(27:32):
journey and with her work.
My friend had told me prior togoing you're going to want
somebody to help you integratethis and I was like, who's that
going to be?
And I was like, oh, it's goingto be Tam.
Tam's going to help me integratethis and it was a perfect match
.
I mean, when I started talkingabout what had happened in that
experience and what was stillhappening even in the days to

(27:53):
come, it aligned so perfectly.
We aligned so perfectly in thatway.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
And that was it In your journey.
So you got me curious Can youshare just one thing that came
out of your journey that leftyou thinking I have to share
this with the world?

Speaker 2 (28:08):
My sessions actually have.
There's been a presence of pastlife, okay, yeah, like stuff
that has come up in there.
And my very first session wasand it was like I was.
It was so vivid and vibrant.
It was like I was, like I wasexactly there.
It was once the medicine kickedin and I'm in my eye shades, my

(28:29):
headphones, actually, the firstvisual I saw.
I had this moment of feelinglike, oh my God, what am I doing
?

Speaker 1 (28:38):
I've just ingested, yeah, a little moment of like
fear, regret, as you head in.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm up in, like Vancouver, in the
woods, in an Airbnb with twopeople that.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
I kind of knew.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
But I felt like I really knew one.
But regardless, like thismoment kicks in Right and I'm
not kidding you, I'm behind theeye shades and the music is
going and I feel the fear Likeit caught me and I could see the
room in my mind's eye, but itfelt very vivid, like the room I
was actually in.
I'm in eye shade so I can't seethe room, but I see the room

(29:17):
and I see my two sitters intheir chairs just beyond the bed
I was laying in, and behindthem pops up.
I had never seen this before inmy life until that day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and

(29:39):
instantly it was like you'regood, you're safe.

Speaker 3 (29:42):
You are protected yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
And I can still see that visual.
Once that happened, I dropped.
It was like I dropped inanother layer into the
experience and I was literallylike transported.
I could see my feet, I couldfeel, I could feel the ground
beneath me, I could seeeverything around me and I was
in a jungle in Asia.
I could see everything aroundme and I was in a jungle in Asia

(30:07):
and I didn't know at that timewhat was happening.
But I was reconnecting with apast life experience and the
things that I was learning inthere gave me information about
my experiences in this life thatI could never understand, like
things that I could not find myway with.
Struggles, things I would comeup against that I could not find
my way with.
You know struggles, things Iwould come up against that I
could not find my way with.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
So what would you say to the person who's listening
right now, who's like whatever?
She has a really goodimagination.
She's creative.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Maybe, maybe.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
But does it even matter?
Essentially, If you come out ofan experience feeling elevated
and resolve about some things,whatever, Does it even matter?
I mean, I don't think we needto argue about these things.
But I'm just thinking ofsomeone listening right now
who's thinking I'm still notsold and you may not be in the
right place.
If you're not sold on this,it's not the right timing for

(30:56):
you and that's okay too, to me,the experience of eating a
really juicy piece of fruit.

Speaker 2 (31:02):
Like you, all of your senses are engaged in that.
So you are feeling it on all ofyour human levels, with all of
your senses.
That is such an experience thatyou, like you, can't deny that.
You can't deny such a deeplyfelt experience as the
experiencer.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (31:25):
It was Tammy, and I always say that there's just
stuff you can't make up.
There's stuff that comes up inthese places.
That's like I cannot make thatshit up.

Speaker 3 (31:34):
No, and if I was making my imagination can, I
would never be able to think ofit.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
That's what I say, even just in some meditations
when I've had things come up.
I'm like not in a million yearswould I have planned to
visualize that.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
That's my whole work.
You talked about that last time.
When you're going into thesesessions in an altered state,
you're experiencing soul'slanguage, so you have to
understand that there could bethe way soul is talking to you
about your current life, couldbe a past life coming to you and

(32:06):
in that particular situationshe felt it so deeply that she
just knew yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
There's just no denying it yes.

Speaker 3 (32:14):
And you can't really sell someone on that, because
you just have to experience.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
Yeah, you got to feel it for yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
And so there has to be a level of trust that when
you go into these altered statesyou're going to have an
experience, and whether you comeout of that experience saying
that was soul's language,similar to, maybe, how you
experience a dream versus wow,that really happened to me in my
soul's journey.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
You have to just experience that yourself,
because when you're sayingsoul's journey, you have to just
experience that yourself,because when you're saying
soul's language, you're not inthese experiences and someone
just sits down in front of youand tells you all the things in
English, like you can understand, or do they?
Sometimes someone just plop asquat and tell you some things.

Speaker 3 (32:54):
Yes, yeah, oh, okay, you had a really cool experience
with your gram.
Yes, I did.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Sitting down.
Oh, did she sit down with?

Speaker 1 (33:01):
you.

Speaker 2 (33:01):
Yeah, you literally described.
Yeah, she sat down at a table,yeah, and told you some things.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Literally said let me tell you or let me show you.
Yeah, let me tell you somethings.
Ah, I'm getting the chills, youguys, I think I'm going to have
to do this, anyway.
So I got people I need to talkto.
You've brought this back, tammy, heard you say we got to do
this MDMA thing, girl, and youwere on board.
You were like, okay, no, youweren't on board yet no.

Speaker 3 (33:29):
another one of our people took it first.

Speaker 1 (33:31):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (33:32):
And I sat.

Speaker 1 (33:33):
Yeah, because you explained to us you sat and if
you saw her experience you'relike all right, I'm in.
But you were open to teaming upin this thing.
You didn't know if you weregoing to do it yet.
But you were open to sittingand helping do this integration
and prep work and all of thatAll right.
So then all of a sudden you'relike maybe there's something
better than MDMA.
When did we make the switch topsilocybin?

(33:54):
Well, I remember that fatefulday.
I remember very well.
Okay, all right, what was thatday?

Speaker 3 (34:00):
like guys.

Speaker 1 (34:03):
When did the psilocybin?

Speaker 3 (34:04):
roll in.
Jen, I took one for the teamthat day.
Did you?
You were like I'll trysomething different.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Remembering this correctly, the reason we decided
that you would take one for theteam is because someone came to
us and said I really want tohave an experience, but I'd
really like to work withpsilocybin.

Speaker 3 (34:22):
Correct and we had not done it ourselves and for us
that felt important, that weunderstood the feeling of it.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yes, so you started doing a deep dive, I'm sure, on
psilocybin at that moment, andthen you're like all right, I'm
in, I'll be the one to take itfirst.
Yeah, okay, and you did theMDMA too.
Was the experience very similar, Was it?

Speaker 3 (34:44):
different.
So in the beginning thepsilocybin was wildly different.
It was a wildly differentexperience for me personally.
Okay, Different how MDMA is forme.
I say it feels like I'm goinghome.
Okay, it's very universal.
It feels universally loving.

(35:04):
Okay, it really is like love.
There's like a whole componentof love and how you are viewing
your world and your experiences.
And the psilocybin for me inthat moment was a little harsher
, a little rough around theedges in its lessons and how it
taught me certain things.
It was a little more earthy ofan experience.

(35:28):
But now, over a period of fiveyears, I feel like the two are,
for me, feel, more similar.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
More similar.
Now it feels like you canintegrate back into the real
world quicker.
You're grounded faster.
What's going on?
Into the real world?
Quicker You're grounded fasterwhat's going on.
Explain to us exactly what.
All right, we're taking it,we're ingesting it.
What exactly is it doing to ourbody, our brain?

Speaker 2 (35:51):
So MDMA has been like a lot of the research at the
beginning.
With MDMA it's like moving indifferent directions now, but it
was for folks with PTSD.
Okay, because what MDMA does isit goes in and it shuts down or
really dials down the fearcenters in the brain, okay.

(36:12):
So like that amygdala thatsends us into fight, flight,
freeze or fawn, it quiets thatall down, so it allows a person
to go into territories that arevery you don't want to be too
scared, yeah.
And then it also increases ourfeel-good chemicals like
dopamine, serotonin,norepinephrine, oxytocin, so it

(36:34):
puts most people in a statewhere there's sort of this
universal feeling Of love andacceptance and safety.
Yeah, there's a lot of space.
It's not to say that everyexperience is this like deeply
loving and amazing thing.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
No, but you feel safe enough to have those
experiences.
Yes, okay.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
It removes the guard from the door so you can get in
and get into some deeper placesand have the capacity to be with
the deeper things.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
that have been kind of tough for you be with the
deeper part, you know, deepthings that have been kind of
tough and I feel a sense ofsometimes reconciliation, where
when you're out here, you can'teven, you can't get there, you
can't find the forgiveness foryourself.
You can't find the forgivenessfor others, where in that space
you can experience what it feelslike to deeply forgive, forgive

(37:20):
yourself, forgive others,deeply love someone.
You get a benchmark for whatthat feels like inside of that
space so that you can do thatmore practically out here.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
Yeah, and then for psilocybin.
What's it doing?
Same thing, or is it a littlebit different?

Speaker 2 (37:37):
It's a little bit different.
So it's like it's connecting towhat's called the 5-H2A
receptor.
That's the receptor site in thebrain that is activated and
connected when you consume oneof the classic psychedelics,
like it's putting.
You know, you're kind of goinginto like an fMRI.

(38:00):
When someone is under theinfluence of psilocybin in
particular, networks in thebrain that don't typically
communicate are connecting andcommunicating in what's called
the default mode network.
So that's our way of beingright now.
We all have like kind of acertain automated way that we
Our day-to-day life.
This is how we function.
Yeah, and these are my beliefsand these are the ways that I

(38:24):
think about things.
That default mode network goesoffline, okay, and then parts of
the brain that don't typicallycommunicate are communicated.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
Okay, so we're breaking down our own barriers
in our brain.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
So that we can just just talk with whoever we want
to these more connectedexperiences, like connecting the
dots between things that ourbrain isn't allowing us to do,
when that default mode networkis, like activated, you know,
okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
And so a lot of medications that people are on
for a regular, on a regularbasis for mental health issues,
albeit anxiety, whatever you gotgoing on guys depression,
bipolar, whatever's going on foryou.
Is there a contraindicationthere if someone is already on
medications?

Speaker 2 (39:08):
Yeah, so, like in the current research, like there is
, any of the trials are with anyof these medicines are going to
like wave a red flag ifsomebody has had what would be
deemed in Western medicine as apsychotic disorder or a bipolar
one disorder which is, like youknow, western frame.

(39:30):
If you're looking at thatWestern medical lens, which
trials are pulling from, bothfrom these Western medical
lenses and also from you know,indigenous ways of working with
these medicines, those disordersand I don't really love this
language, but those arecontraindications.
And also SSRIs are acontraindication, particularly

(39:53):
for MDMA, because that serotonindump is pretty huge.
So if you're already on amedication, that is increasing
serotonin Increasing it.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
It could be too much.
It could be too much.
Yeah, okay, and that's MDMA,but when we're talking
psilocybin, is that the same, ordo we need more research on
that?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Psilocybin, it's actually really safe.
So if someone is taking an SSRI, it's safe.
In this regard, if someone'staking an SSRI, their experience
might just be a little moreblunted, okay, but in terms of
the toxicity that can happenwith MDMA, there's nothing
that's pointing to that as arisk in the research.
Currently, what really tends tobe the biggest concern is the

(40:36):
mindset of the person going intothese spaces and their capacity
to hold the information or theexperiences that are had in
these expanded states.
So it's more psychological orspiritual than it is physical.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Because two different people could be on the same
medications with the samediagnosis and one has done no
work, no spiritual journey, notherapy, no digging in, nothing
right?
They're probably not ready forsomething like this.
They've got a lot of work to dobefore you get there Now.
Same person, same medications,same diagnosis, could have been

(41:12):
working in the spiritual journey, is open already, has done some
work, has pulled things upalmost like during your soul
readings, has pulled some thingsup done.
Some of the internal familysystems work, all of that.
That same person might be readyfor a journey.
So, yeah, so there's no clearcut answer to this.
It's something that you justhave to experience for yourself.

(41:35):
You have to start down thisspiritual journey road and I'm
guessing, if you're listening tothis, you either are on that
road or you're, or you're hopingto start that direction, okay.
So that's why I'm bringing thisstuff to you guys, so you can
learn about it.
You might not be ready for itright now, but a year from now,
two years from now, you maythink back to this and be like I
think I'm ready for that, okay,because if you would have told

(41:57):
me all this stuff two, three,four years ago, I'd have been
like hells.
No, I'm not open enough for allof that.
But now I'm in the place whereI'm like, okay, no, I'm kind of
excited and tingly to get inthere and feel the things and
clarify things that I can't justI can't get to on my own.

(42:17):
I can meditate as deep and hardas I can try and I know you're
not supposed to try hard tomeditate, but you know what I
mean, you guys, you can try andget as deep as you can.
I'm probably not going to getthere.
I'm just not because, like yousaid, parts of my brain aren't
going to communicate with otherparts of my brain without a
little help.
Oh, okay, so there arecontraindications.
Are there anything else we needto consider?

(42:39):
Before we had done one of thesejourneys?
We got to do the work.
Basically, right, this is not aquick fix, you guys.
This isn't.
I'm broken.
I'm going to go on a psilocybinjourney.
I'm going to be fixed.
That's not what this is, no, no, I mean, it's a commitment.

Speaker 3 (42:54):
Yeah, and I think too , we do believe, that the
medicine gives you what you areready for, but also in that is
the responsibility to hold thatwith a sacredness.
You were given this informationand now we need to really work

(43:18):
that and keep that going keepingthe integration going.

Speaker 1 (43:22):
Because, just like with meditation or if you go get
readings, I don't think thatspirit is going to present you
with anything you're notprepared to handle.
Correct, because it's all justlove on the other side is my
thought, and so nobody on theother side, whether it's your
angels, your spirit guides, it'syour higher self, it's source,
is going to lead you in aharmful direction.

(43:43):
Now, that doesn't mean it'sgoing to be a good experience,
but it will be one.
I think that you're ready forright, you're ready to do the
work, or it won't be presentedto you, because people get
nervous, even getting psychicreadings in that like, are they
going to tell me I'm going todie soon?
No, because the only thingsthat will come forward are
things that you're meant to hearnow, where you're at in your

(44:05):
life, now to help you moveforward.
So I'm assuming, with a journeyit's probably the same thing.

Speaker 3 (44:09):
Yeah, this kind of brings up an interesting thing
where Ange and I heard when youdo these journeys, then you have
these critical periods open up.
So explain that a little bit,because I think that's really
important in how you tend to theinformation that you're getting
in the active session.

Speaker 2 (44:27):
Yeah, this lab that's doing the research that this
information is coming out of.
It's called Fathom Lab.
The woman who's leading thatresearch her name's Gould Dolan.
She gave MDMA to an octopus,which are typically very
antisocial animals by nature.

(44:47):
They just kind of keep tothemselves, and when an octopus
was given MDMA they becamesocial.
The way she describes it islike this they're like dancing
around in their tanks andlooking for other objects to
interact.
She took the research furtherand started to give psychedelics
everything from non-classicslike ketamine, which is

(45:09):
currently FDA approved, mdma,psilocybin.
There's a couple others Givingthese psychedelics to mice and
what they're looking at is whenconsuming these medicines, what
is reopened are these criticalperiods of learning?

(45:30):
So if you think of it likethey're social critical periods
early stages, zero to two yearsold, when we're bonding that's
considered a critical period.
So they're critical periods oflearning where everything that's
happening in and around you isso enhanced.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Okay, yeah, like you said, like a little kid that's
learning language and movementand social skills all at the
same time.
They're very open.

Speaker 2 (45:55):
It's reopening these critical periods.
Okay, and so we were.
Yeah, we were listening to aninterview with this woman who's
doing this research and shetalked about how you know this
is giving us information aboutthe days and weeks to follow,
like a four-year-old, like asix-year-old, in terms of the

(46:28):
kind of tenderness you haveBecause you're opening and it
doesn't close at the end of yourjourney.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
No, it's open.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
You're open now.
For how long do you think?
So what the research isindicating is that these
critical periods are open, foreach hour that you are in the
psychedelic experience equatesto one week of that critical
period being open.
So, like in an MDMA experiencewhich is anywhere from six to
eight hours, that's six to eightweeks of You've got a couple of

(46:59):
months, you're open.

Speaker 3 (47:00):
Yeah, you're really vulnerable, which also we think
about.
Who are you going to be with?
Yeah, not only how are youtending to yourself during those
to follow, but what situationsare you putting yourself in and
the mindset you're going into,going back to your life in.

(47:22):
You know what I'm?

Speaker 2 (47:22):
saying yes, so you're really malleable in that time.
So it's like okay, there's somuch intention, that's required
so it sounds like timing of yourpsilocybin journey is very
important.

Speaker 1 (47:38):
So you're looking at potentially up to a couple
months where you're open andwhatever you're doing is going
to change you and that could begood or bad.
What would be an example ofdoing it at the wrong time?
Have you seen anything thatwould be bad to be around or to
do in your life in thatintegration period?
Because we can't just vacationfor two months, right?

(47:59):
Do we not want to make bigdecisions for those?

Speaker 2 (48:02):
two months.
Do we not want to make bigdecisions for those two months?
Something that comes upactually in the trials is
something that has come up asthis research has been unfolding
, is the potential that existsfor someone to come in Like.
This is just an example.
Okay, say someone's in anabusive relationship and the one
individual in that relationshipis ready to dig in and make

(48:24):
some changes, but they're goingright back home to that
environment.
There's risk.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
Yeah, there's risk.
Okay, so if you're planning tomake big changes in your life
and I'm talking about a divorceor something like that would you
say a journey is better to doafter you've made that big move,
or do some people need thejourney to make that big move?
Some people need the journey Tomake that big move.

Speaker 3 (48:46):
So, it's about support after it's about support
and number one, recognizingthat that is what is occurring.
You know, I don't think thatwas that we've grown a lot in
our own way of, you know,creating this particular model
of guiding and supporting people.
So just having that knowledgethat that is important, that's

(49:09):
just important you have anawareness of that's what you're
going through, that's what'soccurring in your brain.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Just bringing an awareness to it is going to help
you through it anyway, yeah,okay.
All right.
So it's about the people andexperiences you surround
yourself with while you'reintegrating and support and
support Someone that you can thepeople and experiences you
surround yourself with, whileyou're integrating and support
someone that you can andeverything you consume media.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
You know everything you're taking in.
Yeah, turn off the damn newsfor eight weeks.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
We should probably do without a journey.
But, but especially then, isthere ever, during a journey, a
bad trip?
Is there ever you get to apoint during this psilocybin
journey where things are going alittle too much?
There's a little too much.
Is there a way to deal with it?
Or is that just having goodsitters?

Speaker 3 (49:52):
I had what I might consider a bad trip.
But, it was the mosttransformative thing that ever
occurred, right?
Yes, so in the moment it wasvery challenging, but I had good
people around me.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
And that integration afterwards.

Speaker 3 (50:07):
And the integration afterwards.
It was huge.
Sometimes you got to stir thepot.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Listen, there's a lot of stir in the pot.
Life is what I'm learning and Itell you guys.
You guys listen, I tell you allthe time like there's a lot of
work to be done and it's notpretty, I'm sorry.
But the other side is the timelike there's a lot of work to be
done and it's not pretty.
I'm sorry, but the other sideis, the other side's better and
it's necessary, but it's notgreat.
If you're going to be in a badspot here and there, it's okay.

Speaker 3 (50:32):
Sometimes I think about it.
Like you know, it's just almostlike a septic tank in a way.
You know they got all that.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Sludge.
Yeah, you got to get it pumpedand it's down the bottom, you
know.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
So you got to.
You got to get that stirred upin order to clean it out and
clear it out.

Speaker 1 (50:48):
Because I think a lot of times we get to midlife with
this whole analogy and thetoilet's clogged.
Yes, ma'am, it's not flushinganymore.
We got no choice but to pumpthe old sewer.

Speaker 3 (50:58):
Can I just say one thing, as we're talking about
that analogy it's like one ofthe things we love about the
psilocybin mushroom is in and ofitself, a fungus, right?
So its purpose in the world isto compose what has decayed.
So within us at midlife, wehave a lot of decay.
We have a lot of things thatare just sitting in there and

(51:22):
stagnant, just weighing us down.
Yeah, and that is one of thethings we say about the mushroom
.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Historically, because we didn't just come up with
this psilocybin, used mushroomthings right.
This is ancient.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
Yeah, I mean it goes way back.
I mean there's like Furtherback than we can probably even
think of yeah.
There's a lot of.
It is theoretical, you know,like there's a mushroom carved
into this ancient pot found youknow, a thousand years old.
There's lots of stuff.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Because, medicinally, way before we had big pharma,
we had our plants you guys.
And we were healing stuff Forsure, and we had healers in
every generation that werepassing this down, and I don't
know what the hell happened, butwe stopped passing it down.
Religion and politics exploded,the two together and all of a
sudden we threw out all of thethings we already knew to be

(52:11):
true and to work.
So I think we're maybe turninga corner.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
Yeah, it's like everything was colonized.
So it was like thecolonialization of medicine even
, you know.
So out with the old and in withthe things that you know are
marketable.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
And so for you, if you're where I am and you're in
your midlife spiritual journey,you're starting to break free
from all these rules.
Anyway, you guys, right, we'vegotten to the point where we're
like, no, every pill my doctorgives me isn't the answer, and I
know this because I've done itRight.
I've tried the pills, I'vetried the things that the

(52:51):
traditionally trained Westernmed doctors have told me to do,
and it's not working.
So we start expanding our minda bit, and that's where these
modalities can come in.
Okay, is it addictiveTechnically?
No, no, okay, no, this isn't.
You're not going to do onepsilocybin journey and be

(53:11):
calling your provider you knowyour, whoever did this for you
like, I got to do it again, Igot to do it again.
You're not going to want to dothis on the daily.
You guys, no, oh heck, you gotto do some integrating and other
things.
And how often do people dothese journeys?
Is it a one and done for a lotof people?
Or is it a once, a what Like?
What feels like a schedule?

(53:32):
That because you don't want todo it once a week?
Probably no, because you'reopening while you're still open.
While you're still open, Idon't know.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
I mean I guess you could, but you don't want to
bypass the integration.
You know it's such anindividual experience, like the
trials with MDMA.
There is a protocol establishedparticularly for PTSD.
So the PTSD protocol for MDMAis three active sessions within
six months.

(54:01):
So it's about every six weeksthere's an active medicine
session and in between thereyou're integrating.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
Yeah, and we've all experienced that we are doing it
in that way.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
So what I'm getting is it's very individualized.
There's no one way to do thisthing right, it just depends.
That's why the pre-work, thepre-work guys, we got to do the
work ahead of time so thatsomeone does know how to guide
us properly.
Yeah, for sure, because yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
And this is all right .
Now it's all as this is movingtoward FDA approval.
It's all part of what's calleda harm reduction model, so each
individual person is making achoice for themselves around
this right.
So if you chose, hey, I'dreally like to have an
experience, you're making thatdecision.
You're likely, you know, ifyou're going to work within a

(54:52):
harm reduction model, you'regoing to seek someone who has
experience with this and you'reasking them to participate with
you in a process that keeps yousafe, first and foremost, and
then that really supports youand really gaining something
from the experience, versus justhaving an experience.

Speaker 1 (55:12):
Yeah, Because, again, just like I said during Tammy's
interview, this isn'trecreational that we're talking
about here.
This is with a very specificpurpose in mind, for therapeutic
reasons.
This isn't just a sit by theriver and do some shrooms for
fun, Right, Right Again.
If you're doing that, I'm notjudging you, but that's not what
we're talking about here.
Okay, that's you, you out there.

(55:34):
But I'm just saying if you'rein a spiritual journey right now
and you've got some shit comingup you got to deal with right
and in regular therapy might notbe cutting it for you.
I'm just I mean again, love mytherapists out there, but if
you're feeling like you needmore than just that weekly,
let's talk about my life, let'stalk about where I'm at.
And you're feeling stuck.

(55:55):
You know, because I've been inthat place in regular therapy
where you're like I feel likeI'm just coming and seeing the
same shit every week and I'mgetting nowhere fast.
You know like cool, it's coveredby my insurance but it's doing
nothing.
Okay, so that's when we startlooking out and say, hey, you
know what, I need some differentmodalities going on here.
And that's when you startexpanding and your therapist, if

(56:15):
they truly have your bestintent in mind, they're going to
be okay with you spreading yourwings a little bit, right,
because if you're hitting themall with them, they're hitting
it with you too, and that's nothelpful for anyone.
As a therapist, would you say,that's true For sure.

Speaker 2 (56:28):
Yeah, there's a point in which, if someone is just
not getting to where they wishto be getting to, it's time to
change it up.

Speaker 1 (56:37):
And that's okay.
Yes, yeah, it's good.
It's good.
That's progress, actually, likeeven for a therapist.
That's progress for you to beawake enough to know that you
need to change.
Yeah, yeah.
So how long your journey is isbased on probably two part how
your body reacts, becausethat'll be different for
everyone.
Is it also dose reliant?

Speaker 2 (56:58):
It's important to say that we don't really make.
We don't make any decisions forpeople.
We do not.
We're talking.
Yeah, the person is coming tous and saying I want to have an
experience and I would like yoursupport so I can have that
experience in a safe and heldway you know, so we don't
dictate or make decisions forfolks no.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
All right.
So I've come to you and I'msaying I want to have a journey,
I want to have this experience.
When it comes to that day anddecisions are being made like
walk me through, what's thatlook like?
Because you're saying you don'tmake decisions for me, I don't
know how much damn shroom totake.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
I don't know enough about it.
There's a lot of research outthere so anyone could just go on
some valid websites and lookand see.
There's doses called a museumdose, which is a well-documented
.
You take about this amount ofpsilocybin and you could still
walk around a museum andeverything's going to look and

(57:58):
feel really cool, so that givesyou some information about,
maybe, how deep you're going to.
You know, look and feel reallycool, so that gives you some
information about you know,maybe, how deep you're going to
go.
Okay, Based on you know.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
We're going to talk about what kind of journey I'm
looking for, maybe right howdeep I want to go, how vivid
things need to be, so I couldsay I'm looking for a really
elevated experience.
Guys, I don't want to just likecolors to be more vibrant and
stuff I want to go talk tograndma.

Speaker 3 (58:22):
Okay, what we also, you know, sometimes guide people
on their own intuitiveconnection to the classroom Like
in the pre-work.
Yeah, or that morning We'vedone the pre-work the morning of
sometimes.

Speaker 1 (58:36):
Yeah, okay, where you would guide someone to drop in
meditatively and make thosedecisions Correct.

Speaker 3 (58:43):
Okay.
So you could drop in and say wedo some muscle testing, also
with dosage.
If you come to a number.

Speaker 1 (58:51):
What is this muscle testing?
Hold on, back it up.
You can just throw up muscletesting.
What is that?
Is this where you're holdingyour arm up, kind of thing?
Yeah, okay, so this dude that Ijust interviewed I don't think
he Daryl's coming up, you guys,but shout out.
Daryl was telling me that hehad this done in this therapy
with this shaman, and it waslike he was holding his arm up

(59:15):
and would talk about things andit would drop when it got to
like whatever.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Tell me more.
I got to like whatever.
Is that what you're talkingabout?
Tell me more.
I got to hear more about this,though.
What is this muscle testingwe're doing?

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Well, we're definitely not experts at this,
by any means, but it is a.
It is a tool to, to validateyour own intuition and we, you
know if somebody picks a dosethrough their intuitive
meditative process.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
It's like a getting a response from something beyond
this the mind.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
So it's like our subconscious coming through our
muscles as we're talking.
I mean because, okay, so I'mholding my arm out and I'm
saying I want one milligram, no,I want two milligrams.
Is my arm going to drop whenI'm at the right milligram?
Is this what we're saying?
Is it that?

Speaker 3 (01:00:02):
literal or not?

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
really Well, it's like a tension.

Speaker 3 (01:00:04):
Yeah, it doesn't necessarily drop.
Well, just drop it Like you'regoing to feel like a little bit
of movement in it.
Yeah, it's a very subtleprocess.
Okay, it in and of what they'rechoosing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:24):
Because we are in control.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
It's self-leadership.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
So decisions are made , but not by you two.
The individual will make alltheir own decisions.
Okay, even if you walk in thatroom and you're dropping and
you're like, not today, I can'tdo it, you have every right to
get up and say, not today, okay,yes, whichever your direction
you're led, this is not someweird culty thing, is what I'm

(01:00:48):
trying to say.
You're in control and it's justa part of your journey and your
experience.
And if you do one and you feelgood with it, you may never do
another one again.
You may six, eight weeks later,one year later, say I'm ready
for another one.
You may six, eight weeks later,one year later, say I'm ready
for another one.
I'm going to up my dose, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:01:07):
There are testing kits that you can purchase
online.
Oh, perfect, you know ifsomeone, if you know if someone
is accessing a plant orsubstance you know one of your
listeners are accessing forthemselves, you can buy at a
very good price.
There's actually a websitecalled the Fireside Project.

(01:01:28):
Okay, it's a really excellentresource for finding testing
kits.
They're cheap.
You just order them and it'sgoing to let you know, like if
there's anything in the what you.
You know the substance.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Okay, Does this work for a lot of different things
Like so.
A lot of different problems,because some people are scared
that it got laced with somethinga little different.

Speaker 2 (01:01:46):
It's important, actually it's really important.

Speaker 1 (01:01:47):
So if you're doing this journey, wherever you're
doing it, whoever you're doingit with, it might be worth
getting a kit so that you can goin with that confidence.
But you're only gettingpsilocybin.
It has not been laced withanything.
It feels more regulated thatway.
Yeah, okay, yeah, all right, Ilike that.
That's safety and it gives youa little bit of peace of mind
going into it too, because Iwouldn't even like everybody was

(01:02:09):
doing the old cannabis on thestreets back in the day Not me.
I was too scared it was goingto be laced with something.
I'm not buying anything from aguy on a corner.
This is what I'm okay.
So I didn't do any of that.
But the minute it was moredispensary, legal, regulated
testing, I felt better about itand then I could do it.
So this feels like the samething with the psilocybin right

(01:02:31):
Standard rule of thumb.
You know you want to do stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
Anything going in the body is what we need to check,
for sure, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
Are there any other tips?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
you're thinking that was a good one If someone is
like if one of your listenersare looking to have an
experience and they want to havea well-held guided or just have
sitters.
There are folks all over whoare doing this kind of work, and
when you're meeting withsomeone to discuss what this
looks like, there should be anemphasis on someone's ability to

(01:03:00):
make their own decisions.
There should be an emphasis onsomeone's ability to make their
own decisions.
There should be a sense of thisbeing not a prescribed thing,
but you're making a choice.
This is something that you feelcalled to.
There's any feeling of pressureor a way that it has to be done
or certain things that have tobe done, which is different from

(01:03:23):
a protocol.
We've developed a protocol thatis for our preparation and
integration purposes.
But there should be a lot ofautonomy in these kinds of
places, in your choices, in yourchoices.

Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
And if anybody out there has already done they kind
of willy-nilly did.
Okay, they did their ownpsilocybin journey, mdma
something.
They got a hold of it, they didit, they didn't integrate and
they're feeling a little lostnow.
They don't know what'shappening.
What would you say to thatperson?

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Give us a call.
You need to integrate.
That's right, you've got tointegrate.

Speaker 1 (01:03:57):
Get your integration going yeah.
You've got to integrate Becauseyou talked about you have a
client that has gone into anayahuasca and that in other
countries but still comes backto you to integrate and continue
with the journey process.
Okay, so phase one meeting upwith someone talking it through,
getting a soul reading, gettinggoing on the journey.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Phase two.
Is what Phase two?
Well, we would say that thethree minimum of three
preparatory sessions willinclude a soul reading and then
we'll include a session withAnge on doing internal family
work systems.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Okay, so you have a full grasp of that before you go
.
Yep, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
And then we collaborate with.
Each person is so individual,what you know.
Some people come in with a lotmore experience.
Some people come in having donethe IFS work already.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
So it just depends.
It just depends where you're atwhat would be the next step for
this person.

Speaker 1 (01:04:49):
So then there's three or more preparations or more,
and then you're going to do yourjourney.
What is the commitment youreally need to make in your mind
for the after work?

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
So three additional integrations, three more
integrations, which are whatweekly-ish Weekly would be great
, but sometimes depending onwhat the other week, whatever
period is for that person.
Yeah, They've had a six hourjourney.
Maybe it's six weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Okay, yeah, it probably has to do with how long
it lasted, yeah, which will?

Speaker 3 (01:05:14):
include the exact same things, Maybe not a soul
reading, but some energy work,doing some clearing, keeping the
energy moving and flowing somemeditation work and then more
ayahuasca.

Speaker 1 (01:05:27):
How do you know when your journey's over?
If you hit three hours, dothings change?
If you go all the way to eight,when do you really know
someone's coming back out oftheir journey?
Is there indications?
Is there a way we act, or doyou just all of a sudden say
like I'm feeling pretty normalguys, yeah, Especially just know
, Especially with the psilocybin.

Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
Yeah, You're kind of like oh, I think I'm done.
You just know.
Oh, you're just all of a suddenlike things feel normal Colors
are normal again, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:51):
Yeah, you kind of.
Yeah, you just feel yourselfsort of.
In my experiences I just sortof feel myself return to like,
okay, you just kind of feel it.

Speaker 3 (01:06:00):
It's sort of more.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Because you're in past lives and doing things and
all of a sudden you're back inthe room.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
And also the fun thing to mention at that point
is sometimes throughout thejourney you will feel like
you're done, but it's, it's awave, it's a wave, it's a fresh
wave, okay, like we call it, theroom.
You know you're coming out of aroom.
You're coming out of a room, sothrough an eight-hour session
you might be in what?
Five rooms, so at fivedifferent points.

(01:06:25):
You kind of feel like oh isthis over?
No, it's not over.

Speaker 1 (01:06:29):
You're done with that part of the journey maybe.

Speaker 3 (01:06:31):
Correct, like maybe you're in a past life.

Speaker 1 (01:06:33):
Is that what you're saying?
I'm in this past life Maybe.
Then you come out of that andyou think, oh, I'm done, no, I'm
not.
And you think, oh, I'm done, no, I'm not.
And you're heading a new place,the next place you were meant
to go and so toward the end.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
I mean time does help gauge, but also there is a
sense of now I'm really done,Okay, Like I feel complete.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Yeah, yeah, you're done.

Speaker 3 (01:06:53):
I feel complete.
That's a good word.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
And again, you're going to get guided through
these rooms as you were meant to.
There's no one in control ofthis.
You're not being guided to thedifferent rooms by your sitters
and really by your own littlebrain.
You're being guided by.
My belief is your spirit teamis going to take you, based on
your intention for that journey.
You're going to get guided theright direction.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Your intentions are part of what helps you stay on
the track when know when we'reworking together.
If I'm losing sight a littlebit, where am I?
You know, tim, what am I doinghere?
Okay, and remember rememberwhat you said you wanted to do
Okay.
All right, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
That makes sense, because I would think during a
jury review, all of a sudden,I'd be like what the F am I
doing a jury review?
All of a sudden, be like whatthe F am I doing Correct?
Sure, yep, absolutely.
What in the hell was I thinking?
Why?
Why am I here again?
And then that's why, that's whyit's important to be with
people who can say remember,this is why you're here.
And then you go, oh, and thenyou can relax into the journey

(01:07:56):
again.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
Yeah, and this is why being able to have a sitter you
know, is a super valuable thingto have.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
If you start to think , what the fuck?
And you're by yourself outside,oh no, that's a bad idea, who
knows and this is a fear peopleprobably have and then what?
I go, jump in the damn riverand die.
This is what goes through myhead.
I got to have a sitter becauseI don't want to make bad
decisions, you don't want tomake poor decisions,
life-changing decisions during ajourney, because I think we go

(01:08:26):
back to movies.
We've seen where people aretripping out and jumping up
buildings and stuff.
No, I can't do any of that.
So, everyone listening, ifyou're close to my age, you
probably have some of thosefears, right, just because we've
already been groomed by movies,media, everything around us to
fear these things Becausethey're not really depicted as

(01:08:48):
beautiful things usually in themovies.
It's scary.
You're getting scared straightout there.
All right, no, but I'm donebeing straight now.
That didn't sound right.
No, but I'm done being straightnow.
That didn't sound right.
But anyway, I'm more open now toall these things.
Okay, I don't need any outsidepeople telling me what's right

(01:09:11):
for me anymore.
That's where I'm at and whichis like you guys said you're not
telling people what to do.
I'm going to come tell you whatI'm going to do and you're
going to go.
Okay, maybe we should meditateon that a little more.
That sounds a little high for atoast.
I've been rolling in what?
50 MGs and they're like.
We should probably meditate alittle more.
You might need a couple moresessions before we do this.

(01:09:34):
I love that we're in control,because I always say you're in
control of your own life.
If you don't like something,you can change it, and it won't
be easy, but you can change.
It's just another modality, youguys, for your spiritual
journey, wherever you're at.
You might not be ready for itnow.
You might just be listening tothis episode, just interested in
hearing the things, because alot of times that's what I'm
doing.
I just want to be open andlearn.

(01:09:55):
And you might just be open andlearning from this episode and
you're not going to do it andthat's okay.
Or you might be listening,you're getting the chills and
you get some hair standing up inthe back of your neck, and this
might be for you.
Then you might be at a point inyour journey where you're ready
to like no, I could do this.
No, I could do this.
I think I'm about there, girls,so I'll let you know.

(01:10:16):
I don't know.
I've been.
I've been sharing an awful loton this damn podcast lately, so
I'll keep everyone posted onthis journey and I think I just
need to logistically see whereit fits in to my life, because
you got me thinking now, whenyou do it is important too.

(01:10:36):
I don't want to do it two daysbefore I'm heading to go do
something and be around a bunchof new people.
Right, I want to feel grounded.
You want to feel grounded for awhile afterwards.

Speaker 3 (01:10:45):
It really is equivalent to preparing to take
an epic journey.

Speaker 1 (01:10:50):
Yeah, like a trip.
If you plan any big trip,you're planning it for a while
You're planning, you'repreparing, you're packing.
Everything's really thoughtful.

Speaker 2 (01:11:01):
Yes, you have a plan.

Speaker 3 (01:11:02):
What do I need to bring?
It should be done that way.

Speaker 1 (01:11:05):
What am I going to do when I get there?
Yeah, it's like any other trip,any other journey it's got to
be planned out a bit.
This is not well.
Sometimes, spontaneous thingsare nice, but this isn't one of
them.
No, no, this isn't your friendsitting next to you with a bag
of mushrooms and offers you likeDoritos.
No, you don't just grab them,don't do it Like you said you do

(01:11:27):
you, you do you.
But I hope you guys have gottensomething out of this.
I know I have, and this is whyI bring you guys along with me,
so that as I'm learning, you canlearn too and you can make the
conscious decision of if this isyour next step.
Might not be now, might be nextyear, might be never.
That's okay too.
Right, just another option,another little tool for our

(01:11:49):
toolbox.
Just like your therapist andeverybody else, we got to have
the tools on board to getthrough shit.
All right, because let's notpretend because we've hit
midlife, we can figureeverything out and be fine.
There's more shit coming.
I'm sorry to break it to you Ifyou didn't know that yet.
Out there, there's more shitcoming.

(01:12:11):
We've got to be ready and in areal good place to handle it and
finish this life strong.
Okay, well, you guys both thankyou so much.
We got Tammy, we got Ange, I'msure, as they have more things
going on, because Tammy's goingto have a book out someday.
I'm feeling a vibe over herefrom Ange.
She's got things changing inher world too, so we're going to
stick with them.
When there's changes with thesegirls, I'm going to let you
know, and when there's changeswith me and I do this damn

(01:12:33):
journey, I'm going to let youknow.
About that too, I'm not goingto let you know everything.
As I said before, it's mybusiness, but I'm going to let
you know enough to know if it'sright for you and take the scary
fear out of it, because we'vebeen instilled with way too much
fear in our lifetimes.
Maybe you're ready to dish thefear, okay?
So, tammy and Ange, thank youso much for all this information

(01:12:54):
and come back anytime and letme know the new things, all the
new things.
I love to learn new things.
I'm a lifelong learner too.
And everyone listening.
Thank you for listening fromall three of us and tune in next
week, because there's more goodstuff coming.
There's always more good stuffcoming.
All right, thanks guys.
Okay, bye.
Listen, I know your time isvaluable and right now I'm

(01:13:16):
feeling super grateful andtotally humbled that you chose
to hang out with me today.
If this podcast resonates withyou, could you do me a solid and
hit that subscribe or followbutton?
That's going to help you out,because you're never going to
miss an episode, and it helps meout because you're never going
to miss an episode.
And if you have like 30 secondsmore, could you leave a

(01:13:37):
five-star rating and maybe leavea kick-ass review?
Thank you so much, and I can'twait to continue our journey on
the next episode.
Oh, and I can't forget the fineprint.
You know the legal jargon thispodcast is presented solely for
educational and entertainmentpurposes.
We're just two friends on thisjourney together and this

(01:13:58):
podcast is not intended as asubstitute for the advice of a
physician, professional coach,psychotherapist or any other
qualified professional.
You get it.
See you next time.

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