What if the real engine of modern luxury isn’t loud marketing—but meaning delivered consistently across every touchpoint? In this episode, Dr. Jessica Quillin, fashion strategist and PhD in 19th-century poetry, breaks down how elevated storytelling creates brands that feel unified on the site, in the feed, and in the store. She shares her journey from studying the philosophy of beauty to advising global fashion houses, revealing how emotions become experiences—and how experiences become communities that buy, return, and advocate.
Jessica takes us through the post-pandemic clutter of beautiful but disjointed brand moments: e-commerce that doesn’t guide, social feeds that don’t match the retail floor, and campaigns disconnected from values. Her antidote is both strategic and doable—codify your identity, then run small, disciplined pilots. Launch a three-post content series, read the data, refine, and repeat. From nostalgia-powered Gen Z engagement to experiential moments that spark belonging, Jessica shows how consistency across platforms is now one of the strongest moats in fashion and accessories.
💡 Key Takeaways:
- Meaning Scales Faster Than Noise: Codified identity + emotional storytelling = real brand equity.
- Pilot, Don’t Spray: Small experiments on single channels will sharpen your narrative—and your ROI.
- Narrative Systems Win: Reusable “story bricks” keep your website, social, and in-store aligned and unmistakably you.
👤 Our Guest:
Dr. Jessica Quillin is a fashion strategist, brand storyteller, and co-founder of Quillin Consulting. With a PhD in 19th-century poetry, she bridges deep cultural insight with modern marketing strategy, helping luxury and fashion brands build cohesive, emotionally resonant identities across every platform.
Host Emily Blumenthal is a handbag industry expert, author of Handbag Designer 101, and founder of The Handbag Awards. Known as the “Handbag Fairy Godmother,” Emily also teaches entrepreneurship at the Fashion Institute of Technology. She is dedicated to celebrating creativity, craftsmanship, and the art of building iconic handbag brands.
Youtube: / Handbagdesigner101-ihda | Instagram:/ Handbagdesigner
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Helping brand teams do more with what they have and
maybe relying a little bit lesson the marketing agencies and
things like that, that they sendeverything out, but to really
own that story more in-house sothey can actually help shape how
that's heard on the other endand you know create sort of just
better, deeper stories thateveryone wants to be a part of
that are really unique to thatbrand across platforms.
(00:20):
And so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hi, and welcome to Handbag Designer 101, the
podcast with your host, EmilyBlumenthal, Handbag Industry
Expert, and the Handbag PerryGodmother.
Each week we uncover the storiesbehind the handbags we love,
from the iconic brands and topdesigners, the creativity,
craftsmanship, and culture thatdefine the handbag world.
Whether you're a designer,collector, or simply passionate
(00:43):
about handbags, this is yourfront row seat to it all.
Welcome, welcome, Dr.
Jessica Quillen of It's aWorking Title and Fashion
Strategy Weekly.
Thank you for joining us andwelcome to Handbag Designer 101.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me today, Emily.
I'm a huge fan and it's a it's apleasure to chat today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
I know.
Well, you know, like what drewme to you was your PhD, your
sexy PhD, that not a lot ofpeople have in this industry.
And as I mentioned to you aminute ago, that I truly believe
you are a one-of-one.
And you are inspiring, I think,and should inspire everybody all
over the world to get a PhD,because I think it's just such a
(01:31):
good thing to say, if for noother reason, just that we can
call you doctor.
And you know, that's a flex.
Um except that there's anemergency on an airplane, in
which case I'm totally useless.
Not okay, comma, not thatdoctor, but the cool doctor.
But how is all this?
Because you you have a veryunique specialty.
(01:51):
You did a lot of deep diving onsomething that made you and kind
of took you to where you are.
So let's just dive right in.
What's your story, Jessica?
No pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
So, first of all, I should contextualize that, you
know, my PhD is not in fashion,but my PhD is actually what drew
me to fashion and luxury in thefirst place through sort of the
unique lens of my research.
I have a PhD in 19th centuryBritish literature, specifically
poetry um and music.
My doctoral research, if youwant to dive that deep, looked
at intersections between poetryand music and the life and
(02:22):
thought of the romantic PerseusShelley.
You know, right, but really atthe heart of my research is that
I spent four, four years, youknow, steeped in aesthetics and
the kind of history andphilosophy of beauty and really
kind of what drives people tokind of more elevated
experiences, you know, kind oflooking at the place where, you
know, kind of art becomesemotion and emotion kind of
(02:46):
drives experience and all ofthat, and kind of looking at the
intricacies of how languagebecomes imbued with meaning and
how that meaning can sort ofbecome, you know, personalized
and something you own and cankind of shape how you think.
And there's this whole kind ofdeep theory for Shelley in terms
of how art can make the world abetter place and really kind of
drive more imaginative type ofexpression.
(03:08):
And really, you know, kind ofthat research and my book, which
is actually available on Amazonfor anyone who wants to read a
really boring academic work,kind of drove me.
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
It's called Shelley and the Musical Poetics of
Romanticism.
Okay, good.
That's it, okay.
Now we had to plug that.
Back to you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
So, you know, my research drove me.
I didn't sort of my fate was notto teach.
Uh my fate was really to kindof, I guess, work in content and
in marketing contexts.
So, you know, I've been acontent strategist for about 20
years in different roles.
I started out in the arts.
I used to ghost write for Plazade Domingo, uh running
communications and marketing atWashington National Opera.
(03:47):
And, you know, that eventuallyled me to fashion as uh first as
a freelancer and then as afashion editor for Glass uh
magazine, which is a culturalquarterly edit of the UK for
about 10 years, from about 2012to 2022.
You know, I sort of had a dayjob on the side as an enterprise
content strategist kind of alongthe way.
And, you know, after doing thatfor a while, I took a little bit
(04:07):
of time off from fashion duringthe pandemic because everything
was crazy in the pandemic, andyou kind of just get sensorly
overloaded with things and youhave to kind of focus on what
really matters.
But I kind of took two years offfrom the magazine and working in
fashion, and then I kind of cameback to it with a more refreshed
lens and started doingconsulting and really started to
see kind of just huge gaps inthe way that fashion and luxury
(04:29):
brands were handling contentacross platforms.
I mean, you know, uhpost-pandemic, luxury was still
in this big sort of phase ofgrowth with e-commerce, but I
look at digital content andcontent in general kind of a
little bit differently fromeverybody else.
For me, content is very much aneverywhere thing, not just a
digital thing.
And for me, brands were reallyfocused on doing e-com and doing
social media over here, and itall just feel very disconnected
(04:52):
to me.
You know, you have brandsbuilding e-com experiences,
which are very pretty and kindof very design first, but they
don't necessarily meet userneeds in the way that I want
them to.
I really want to have this more,everybody talks about
Omnichannel in the back end, butthey don't talk about it as much
on the front end in terms ofcreating more guided experiences
for consumers that reallyactually match how people search
and find content acrosschannels.
(05:13):
And so looking at this sort ofmore cohesive storytelling
across the universe of a brand'scontent touch points, which for
me are everywhere from digitalcontent on their econ site and
their website all the waythrough what goes down the
runway to in-person experiencesin the store.
So three years ago, I sat downwith my business partner, who is
also my husband, and we started,it's a working title, really
(05:34):
looking to educate, but alsobring the sort of practice of
holistic content strategy andcontent operations to the world
of luxury.
And we're now writing a bookkind of around a lot of the work
we do, but really the principlesare pretty simple.
It's just to really help brandstell better stories that people
actually want to hear that matchtheir brand codes and values
across platforms with the rightinfrastructure underneath it
(05:57):
from a publishing standpoint toget that content out the door.
You know, there are ways thatthings like AI can streamline
how all of that works and thingslike that, but helping brand
teams do more with what theyhave and maybe relying a little
bit less on the marketingagencies and things like that,
that they send everything out,but to really own that story
more in-house so they canactually help shape how that's
heard on the other end and youknow, create sort of just
(06:20):
better, deeper stories thateveryone wants to be a part of
that are really unique to thatbrand across platforms.
And so yeah.
And we also publish a lot ofthought leadership through
Fashion Strategy Weekly as well,because yeah, can't turn off
that academic in my head.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
So so I mean, this there's oh my god, this is so
juicy.
And, you know, I think for thoseof us who get excited about this
information and everythingyou're saying, like there are
people like me who hear that andI'm like, tell me more, tell me
more, tell me what the pitfallsare, tell me what they're doing
wrong.
What are the things that yousee?
Because and I know you you speaka lot about luxury, luxury, but
(06:57):
I think there's so many brandsthat just miss the mark, and
there's so many windows ofopportunity to be very
thoughtful on brand messaging.
And can you just talk a littlebit about just basic
fundamentals where you seebrands misstep?
Where I mean, look, I teach, Iteach entrepreneurship, I teach
(07:20):
it to college students.
There's a lot of things that areobvious to us that aren't
obvious to other people.
That so many brands get lost inthe sauce, they get excited
about the principle of having abrand, the principle of having a
product, that they forget, youknow, the the ethnography of
like understanding theircustomer where they shop, how
like the who and the why and allthat, like trying to meet the
(07:43):
customer where they are, so theydevelop a product around the
needs of who their customer is.
And speaking just because I'mfluent handbag, going so far as
to say that if you're a customerthat you know is your loyal
customer and she is above acertain age, never have a lining
that's dark because she hasglasses, she'll never find it.
And make sure the bags you'reselling have some sort of
(08:04):
structure.
Nobody wants a bag that's anabyss, right?
You lose that for whoever you'retrying to sell.
What are some things that, like,if a brand comes to you, I see
you're ready to talk, thatyou're like, okay, here's some
low-hanging fruit.
Let's go.
unknown (08:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And honestly, that low-hanging fruit is always the
best place to start.
I mean, I don't know.
For me, for a brand of any size,and we we talk a lot about
luxury because luxury is kind ofunique to any other industry.
Luxury does not exist withoutstory, right?
Like there's nothing that the, Imean, you can find an
equivalent, say, bag, to talkabout bags that is crafted with,
you know, similar artisanalcraftsmanship at much lower
(08:40):
price points from smallervendors than you do from big
luxury brands in some cases.
But luxury brands have theheritage, they have the story.
Even if they don't have theheritage, they have the the vibe
in the budget.
Is it because they have thebudget?
Is it because they have thebudget?
It's partially it's partiallythe budget, and part of it is
just a perception of elevatedmeaning, right?
It's their they're bevelinggoods, right?
The the pricing doesn'tnecessarily make sense logically
(09:01):
from the business standpoint.
They're they're priced at acertain point because people
believe they they're worth more.
They're valued because they'repeople believe they're they're
high-end, right?
They believe that they aretimeless, one of a kind, you
unique, kind of worth theinvestment kind of thing.
So we spend a lot of time withluxury brands and talking about
luxury because for them, contentneeds to be very specific,
refined, and elevated, but alsostill culturally relevant in
(09:24):
today's market.
And that's a lot harder to dogiven sort of the state of a lot
of content marketing toolsavailable kind of right now.
So, I mean, we focus a lot abouton that sector, not just because
of the money, but because of thesort of unique nature of
storytelling for a lot ofbrands.
And I, as you and I were kind ofdiscussing before, coming out of
the pandemic, a lot of thesebrands rushed into e-com kind of
unprepared for the type for howcontent kind of how their their
(09:47):
overall brand ethos, this ideaof kind of being elusive and
kind of higher end, fits withinthis new ecosystem.
If you're saying a smallerbrand, a more digitally native
brand within this sort ofdigital ecosystem, there are a
lot of things that those typesof brands know just because
they've, you know, grown up onTikTok or they've grown up on
Instagram that a lot of biggerbrands that have maybe been
around for 150 years don't know.
(10:08):
So we're trying to kind of teacha lot of those sort of digital
native instincts to biggerbrands and help them kind of get
content out the door in a waythat gets those processes and,
you know, kind of meanings inplace there.
But to your point for yourquestion in terms of what we see
in terms of content isespecially for brands of any
size, is just, I don't want tosay it's a fear, but it's this
(10:29):
very sort of reactionary mindsetthat's much more focused on
building visibility.
I mean, when I uh say we givelectures a lot to say college
students and people starting newbrands, you know, kind of even
people that maybe a couple ofyears into that brand journey.
And, you know, the firstquestion I get asked when I say
I'm a content strategist is howdo I make my content go viral?
(10:50):
And I always pause because Iknow the question's coming.
And, you know, our response tothat is always, you know, that's
not the right question, right?
The the question is not how doyou go go viral?
It's really why are youproducing content in the first
place?
You know, who are you tellingstories to?
What stories do you need to betelling?
What makes your brand differentthan other brands?
(11:13):
And how do you use content tokind of drive those brand values
and codes to build experienceskind of through content for
people?
And, you know, as I, as we weresaying kind of before we came
on, for me, I mean, for me,content is an everywhere thing,
not just a digital thing, andsomething that drives experience
both, you know, kind of throughthrough language, but also
through visual cues, assets, andthings like that across
(11:35):
channels.
And if it does not feel the sameeverywhere customers meet your
brand, whether that's in personat a trunk show or on your
social media, if that does notfeel like the same website in
today's absolutely justsaturated landscape, you're not
going to stand out and peoplewill forget you.
So the whole idea, I think, forsmaller brands is to really take
a step back, define a lot ofthose sort of, I know they sound
(11:57):
very esoteric brand questions,but they can really help you
make better decisions aboutcontent.
Answer a lot of those, writethem down for yourself and sort
of some sort of brand matrix andthings like that.
And then for me, that's wherethe fun starts with content
strategy, because it's reallyfor me much more a practice of
putting brand strategy intoaction, but it's creating a
smaller universe to start from.
And then you can start saying,okay, what platforms do I have?
(12:20):
How can I tell the story in kindof some interesting ways that
make sense for what I'm tryingto do, what my products are, who
my audiences are, but also kindof what resources do I have to
kind of drive content that I canmaintain.
And for me, a lot of the sort ofimportant part about planning
ahead for content and not justkind of driving marketing out
(12:40):
the door and throwing up contentand trying to do things is
taking it into smaller chunks,even if you're a smaller brand
and you know, picking a smallercampaign and say piloting a
series of like three Instagramreels or three TikTok posts that
kind of all have that sort ofconceptual idea together, like
almost like a mini-series kindof thing, and piloting it and
seeing kind of how that works,see what you learn about your
audiences and how well thoseparticular messages resonate and
(13:03):
kind of move from there.
So it's really break it down,start small and you know, pick a
channel and experiment for a bitand then and then try another
experiment.
And then after say two or threeof these, see what you've
learned, and then you start toget information about what
content is really like whatspecific formulation of content
(13:23):
and stories and kind of balanceof product and whatever you're
trying to do with your storiesmakes sense for your brand, and
you start to get unique kind ofcontent from that sort of
formulation.
So I just think everybody makesit too complicated.
So really breaking it down,making it in smaller pieces, and
then you can kind of build yourcontent strategy from there
based on that sort of fast andlearned approach.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
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(14:08):
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You know, I couldn't agree withyou more, but I have a whole
lesson specific to guerrillamarketing, to ambient media, and
now I've folded that intoexperiential and immersive
experience.
Well, that's redundant.
Experience opportunations, ifyou will.
(14:31):
I know I it's funny.
I was writing it and I'm like,how do you write experiential
experiences?
That's not it.
It's experien immersiveexperiential activations.
I was going through that to tryand figure that out.
It's a funny place right now interms of how and where people
will spend their money.
And things and services are alot harder to get people to
(14:54):
spend their money on.
I feel like the lift or I can'tspeak too specifically with
luxury, you can more than I.
But I feel based on what I'veseen that experiences people are
willing to spend that moneybecause community is king,
right?
It's a way to get like-mindedpeople to come together.
(15:16):
We just spoke about thisarticle, interestingly enough,
it was I can't remember which UKpaper it was from about adults
who are obsessed with jelly catsand spending upwards of 3,000
pounds to collect them.
But and my students, we had thiswhole conversation about how
ridiculous they are.
And my Gen Z students were Ipity them.
(15:36):
Maybe they weren't getting hugsas a child and all that stuff.
And I said, I agree.
Maybe all that could be true.
But the reality is there's onethread that you're all missing,
and that's what do they all havein common?
And then one student said, acommunity said, Yes, you will
find one adult who's obsessedwith spending that, you'll find
(15:57):
another one, and then they willall come together and want to be
together because they havesomething like-minded.
So I feel like now, and maybeyou can speak to this that
experience is an immersive waysof getting your customer
involved in your brand carries alot more value than something
short form, like a pop-up.
(16:17):
I don't know.
Thoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
No, I totally agree.
And you see that working withit's funny.
I I just uh saw an interview onLinkedIn.
Uh LinkedIn's a bit weird rightnow, but anyways, with uh Gene
Silverstein, the CMO of Coach.
I know their head of visualmartializing Giovanni Zaccaria,
you know, kind of as anacquaintance, and I've talked to
it with him about how they sortof build experiences right
through this kind of new focusedstrategy.
(16:40):
And really, experience in withthem as a perfect example of
that is it comes from a numberof places, but for me, the true
community building happens whenyou really own your brand codes,
you know your brand more thananyone else and kind of how what
that speaks to.
And they've kind of re-redefinedaround this sort of very
well-focused Gen Z strategy.
And you build experience andcommunity through emotion,
(17:03):
right?
So it's it's how did that brandappeal to the emotions of those
consumers?
And then how do you buildemotions into shared values,
right?
And when you build emotion intoshared values, that's where
experience kind of becomescommunity and where community
kind of builds brand loyalty.
And it's sort of this, I'm suresomebody could diagram it better
than I can in my head, but it'sand you see this sort of push
(17:25):
towards nostalgia a lot.
And I think for me, from my youknow, academic analyzing
everything to that standpoint, alot of that I think is
post-pandemic drive towards thatchildhood feeling of the world
is kind of messed up right now,okay, very messed up, especially
if you're in the the US withthings and this sort of sense
that like the economy is notgoing great for some people in
some circumstances.
(17:46):
And you know, buying cute thingsgives you that sense of kind of
childhood pleasure andnostalgia.
I mean, what else can explainlaboo boos, which for me, if you
grew up in the 80s, man chichislike a man chichi on a chain.
Like, okay, oh, I get it fromthat sort of again, nostalgia
standpoint, but again, it'saround that that sense of it
triggers those really happyemotions of like feeling like
you're a kid and this is thisfun collectible there.
(18:08):
And you know, I think, you know,as any, it doesn't you don't
have to be a psychologist toknow that people want to belong
to something.
And I think, you know, a brandat any stage of maturity has the
potential with today's tools toto do this type of build this
type of of loyalty.
And this is why you see so manyeven big brands leaning into,
you know, microcommunities andthings like this.
And you have people in, youknow, small locales who are like
(18:31):
obsessed with their local bagelshop or something, right?
And that local bagel shop cansomehow manage to go viral on
TikTok because they have figuredout how to create content that
conveys the emotion of whyeverybody loves that bagel shop
and that sort of thing.
And you know, I think everyfashion designer on the planet
has the creativity and theskills to do this within today's
tool.
But it's really from our sense,I mean, we've actually just I
(18:54):
was telling you before we cameon, you know, I I think I've
done something that nobody elsehas done before, which is both
good and bad, because I'm I'm anacademic, not a salesperson.
But we just kind of launched ourfirst uh one of our core
products after about a year ofworking on this.
And it's called FlexNar, it's anarrative design system, but
it's basically designed to helpbrands have a system for telling
stories across channels, kind ofbuilding from those foundational
(19:16):
brand codes and using the if youto go in my content strategy
toolkit, the tools of structuredcontent, which are basically
just like Legos.
We turn basically brand codesinto like Lego bricks that once
you combine them together indifferent ways with things like,
you know, metadata and justdifferent types of meanings, you
can use those small brand codesto combine with other brand
codes into, you know, kind ofparts of stories, and parts of
(19:37):
stories become full stories, andfull stories can be combined
with other stories on differentchannels to become sort of a
full story ecosystem.
And we have a whole kind offramework that that drives this.
But the point is with this isthat every brand on the planet
has the chance to kind of stepback and figure out who they
are, what makes them differentfrom somebody else, and defining
what that set of values is, andthen really focusing on
(19:59):
understanding their audiencesand understand how figure out
how those codes can really buildemotion and build community
within those those channels.
And again, I for me that's youknow, starting small really
helps.
But you know, experience comesfrom building whatever emotional
connection you want.
I mean, you you saw aroundHalloween a lot of sort of
people leaning into the, youknow, the the fright manifestos
(20:20):
and this sort of thing.
I mean it was in, you know, theFifth Avenue, my romanticist
lines here.
The the windows at Tiffany is onFifth Avenue leaning into the
Frankenstein movie that justcame out there.
Of course, I have lots ofopinions on that as a
romanticist there, but I'm surethe windows on Fifth Avenue are
just like, I mean, walking bythe Tiffany shop there with the,
they have uh the one of thenecklaces in the window there.
(20:42):
There are shots of Mia Gothbehind it kind of from the movie
thought, and at the top you'vegot all this lightning and stuff
like this.
And it's the experiential kindof elements, those sort of
dynamic, you know, uh visualdesign things like that cues
draw you into the experience.
And the window is only a window,right?
So it's not like doing anything,but it's evoking emotion.
And there are just peoplestopping and watching and
recording it and putting it onuh TikTok, and you build these
(21:05):
shareable moments, and you know,in a sense, that's how you get
community, and you know, it'sit's figuring out what emotions
you want to build, or how do youtell your stories that build
that create those emotions?
And then how do you turn thoseemotions into experiences that
can get a life of their own andbuild a living ecosystem for
your brand?
And for me, any brand of anysize has the potential to do
(21:25):
that, but it does take somework.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think like with a lot ofthe brands with whom I've
worked, and again, uh specificto handbag, so many of them get
so obsessed on the principle ofsaying they're a designer,
saying they're a brand, sayingthey've created product.
But again, without creatingthese kinds of experiences and
(21:51):
emotional connections, it'sreally hard to get that 80-20.
You know, 80% of your businesscomes from 20% of your
customers.
It's hard to find that 20because that 20 is your
community.
So, what can you do to get thoseeyeballs locked into this kind
of emotional connection?
And truly, that has to come downto experience.
(22:14):
And I put my students to task,like, okay, come up with
something out of the box.
And I made it very clear like,you can't have stickers, you
can't have a scavenger hunt, youcan't have a barter swap, you
can't do QR codes on the ground.
Like, what can you do that canmake a moment?
Because even using Blair Witchas the case study of what they
(22:38):
did, what that was just flyeringthe East Coast of saying that
people were missing, that thepolice picked it up, the news
picked it up, that predatedsocial media.
And then once they got theirthree-picture deal, no one ever
heard from it again.
Because sometimes when you'rescrappy, you work 10 times
harder because you don't havethe resources.
So sometimes when you get themoney, then all of a sudden the
(22:59):
creativity's out the wall.
And then it's like, okay, we'lldo X amount of ads, we'll do X
amount, we'll give to theseinfluencers, and then you're
just like everybody else.
And to your point, I believeeverybody has that capacity to
stand out, to be something, butyou do have to put in that work.
Do you put your clients to taskand give them homework and
(23:21):
saying, okay, you need to fillout a manifesto, if you will, so
we've got something to workwith.
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SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
So we do a lot of work.
So we do the answer is yes, butwe try to make it fun through
interactive workshops.
Um, you know, I think it's a alot of, especially in sort of
the discovery phase with a lotof stuff we do, we have our own
sort of content effectivenessplatform that kind of analyzes
sort of how what what thecurrent state of your content is
across platforms for for a lotof this.
But you know, at the end of theday, whenever we finish an audit
(25:23):
and make recommendations andthat whole thing, you know, part
of that sort of help usunderstand who you are and then
help us figure out both whatyour what what your strengths
are with content and kind ofwhere there are gaps and places
to optimize.
It's amazing how many times,even for like some of the
largest, most recognizable blendbrands on the planet, how much
it boils down to that there'snot a lot of system structure or
(25:43):
strategy in terms of how they docontent.
Like they do content, like theirbrand is, you know, kind of
expressed in different waysthrough words and ads and in
social media content posts overhere and product packaging and
all of this.
And for most brands, a lot ofthat decision making is
amazingly siloed.
And some of this is obvious,like I mean, you were talking
about the the sort of pace oftoday's business landscape.
(26:04):
But even for small brands, theurge to kind of do everything at
once is there, right?
I mean, content is 24-7.
Now you feel like you need to beon LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram,
you know, driving paid, orgonna, I mean, it gets very
dizzying for for things likethat.
And for us, we just tried andI'm all about simplifying, I'm
all about streamlining, I'm allabout starting small and really
(26:26):
even for small brands, makingthat bucket of things you can do
now to make your life easier,but more connected.
So, you know, for some brands,it may be a matter of
centralizing how you do stuff,like instead of using five tools
to do produce content, maybe youknow, use Canva more to do
things or or things like that,or centralize more of your CRMRM
(26:47):
efforts into HubSpot or intoShopify with all of their sort
of plugins for everything andcreating more integrated
approaches to things that arekind of more centralized.
And I think for smaller brands,that's a really key thing.
For bigger players, that'sharder because their ecosystems
are much more diverse.
They have a lot of teams, a lotof tools and things like that.
And we look to build moredecentralized kind of approaches
to brand and content that createmore integrated things between
(27:10):
teams so teams can collaboratebetter.
But again, it's still a matterof simplifying, streamlining,
figuring out what's mostimportant to do now and not
getting overwhelmed byeverything you think you have to
do, and then phasing out, okay,what can I do next?
What can I do next?
And then from there, as youstart planning things more
incrementally, that suddenlybecomes a strategy.
And you're, you know, that sortof smaller thing always starts
(27:30):
out by initially mapping outwhat do I actually want this to
look like at that end state?
Like, what is my, as you'resaying, talking about experience
and community, like what kind ofcommunity do I want to have?
What kind of brand do I want tobe?
And you can kind of start to mapfrom those smaller things into
the bigger thing.
And you, you, it it all shouldcome from that sense of these
are my values as a brand, theseare my codes, this is what makes
(27:51):
me me, as opposed to somebodyelse.
And as you start to kind of dothis step by step, as long as
you're maintaining that sort ofstaying system of core values,
you start to build community onyour own because you're, you
know, really owning who who youare and you're talking as
yourself, you're picking thoseinfluencers who really make
sense for your brand universeand you're building a universe
that you're, for the most part,controlling.
(28:13):
And even if you're letting thatevolve on its own through in
through influencers and thingslike that, it still comes from
that more kind of centralizedbase of this is my brand and
this is what I want to do onthese platforms.
And our idea is that this makesjust life a lot easier for
brands and lets you focus onmaking your handbags or, you
know, making your jewelry orselling cars or whatever it is
(28:34):
you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
What are, just because I don't want to hold you
too too long, what are some bestpractices that you would give to
a brand that you would speakwith that would say, okay,
before you and I even meet, makesure you have your home in
order.
What does that mean?
(28:56):
What does having your home inorder mean?
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
So we have a sort of, I mean, and brands can do
with ChatGBC, we can do almostanything now with these things.
But I always like to ask brandsto kind of give themselves a,
you know, kind of brand healthcheck assessment kind of thing.
Like, you know, give yourself acheckup on, you know, kind of
how do you, you know, kind of doyou have your kind of brand
story, you know, documentedsomewhere, you know, kind of
(29:21):
what systems are you?
I mean, we deal with content.
So what are the systems andtools you're using to do what
you do?
Like, like, are you are youusing Shopify to sell all your
products over here?
What channels are you on?
Document everything you have andmake sure you can kind of write
down, this is why I'm doingthat, these are the resources I
have for this, and just kind ofensure do that little homework
exercise to kind of document howyou're communicating your brand
(29:42):
across channels, you know, kindof what does your current
marketing strategy look like?
And then do a little mini, youknow, kind of gap analysis on
your own, you know, kind of whatam I struggling with?
What are those pain points?
And then use those to startthinking about, you know, these
are my short term goals andthese are my long term goals.
And You know, I think whenbrands have spent the time to
(30:03):
think about that sort of listof, you know, kind of little
checklist health healthassessment thing, it allows us
to kind of know where to startwith things like content
strategy in, you know, contentmarketing and a lot of you know
tools like that to drive bettercontent across channels.
But we kind of need those ducksin a row first because, you
know, there are much biggerbrand strategy experts on the
(30:24):
planet who will help you figureout, you know, your brand colors
and your story and how to kindof a lot of founder led brands,
how to separate your story fromthe, you know, your brand story
and kind of how all that sort ofstorytelling art universe is
there.
We can actually sit down andhelp you sh use that story to
turn it into a narrative systemthat drives a content strategy,
but you really need to kind ofhave the rest of it kind of
together before you can do, youknow, before you're kind of
(30:47):
ready for us.
And, you know, it's somethingthat any brand at any stage of
maturity can can do.
But again, you do have to kindof allow yourself the the space
for for thinking a little bit tokind of take a step back and
really figure out, okay, I knowthis is not working, you know,
say Instagram is not achievingthe kind of reach you you want
for things, and I want to dothings better, you know.
Okay, this is what I want to fixhere.
(31:08):
These are examples of people Ithink are doing things I like.
And then you start to be able tokind of make lists of ways to
optimize, and then we canactually help refine those sorts
of things.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
No, I think like competitive analysis, right off
the bat, I always tell peoplesee what they're doing, mark
down what you like, what youdon't like, and your personal
slash professional opinion.
Exactly.
What resonates with you, youknow, is their flow of posts?
Is it product post on a cleanwhite background?
(31:37):
Is it lifestyle post of someoneusing it?
Then is it hopes, wishes, anddreams, a mantra, a field,
rainbows, fairies, unicorns?
What is their pattern?
Because nothing is an accident.
So unless it's somebody who'sjust doing it to do it, which I
think a lot of people arebecause they know that box must
be checked.
Like, okay, I must have a socialpresence, then what?
unknown (31:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
And the other elephant in the room for me is
AI.
AI is, I mean, it's inevitableat this point.
I think it's it has been a partof many tools for a while.
And people are now justrebranding everything as AI.
But I think as creative peopleand creators, it is so tempting
to just launch into AI and startreplacing, you know, people,
processes, and tools withAI-driven things.
(32:19):
But I always caution peopleagainst doing that because
again, AI can be a tool, it canbe a really great assistant in
very specific use cases.
But unless you can actually saywhy you're doing it, kind of
what value it's going to add.
Like, I mean, I think AI, forinstance, for smaller brands to
use AI to help you refineproduct descriptions, even and
do things like that, can begreat.
(32:41):
But in the new world of AIsearch, even your product
descriptions now need it's nolonger a matter of SEO.
Your product descriptions needto reflect your brand story a
lot, like literally down to themetadata that sits behind it and
the alt text you use to describeyour images.
You now need to have more uniquebrand identifiers on the way you
write those languages.
So it's something you use AI torewrite your product
(33:02):
descriptions, but in fact, youmay be rewriting your product
descriptions in a way that makesthem unreadable by AI because it
makes them generic.
So again, things like technologyshould be used with caution and
context, and it can speed upprocesses, I think, behind.
But I think for you know brandsat different stages.
Again, why do you need to usethese?
What are you trying to do withthem?
And even things like AI imagecreation and things like that, I
(33:24):
think for you know a brand atany stage, it needs to be done
in a way that feels purposeful,connected to your brand, and
always reflective of those brandcodes.
Otherwise, your consumers willknow the difference.
I mean, they and they, you know,you've seen brands from Mango to
you know HM get under fire foryou know using AI AI images
without either reporting it orthey have flaws.
(33:45):
I mean, they'll notice it, youknow, like the hairs on your
wrist don't look right and yourarm is facing the wrong way.
I mean, there's all sorts ofthings.
So I got right.
You've nine fingers withpurpose.
Everything with purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
No, I tell my students, like, it is a
wonderful thing that AI exists,it's great, but at the end of
the day, it's a tool, it's notthe answer.
So at one point in time, peoplehad a hammer and nail, and then
someone invented a drill.
You still need the person behindthe drill, you still need the
person there to direct it.
(34:16):
Like, one's not replacing theother, one is trying to make
your life easier, but you stillneed to have the eyeballs behind
it to proof, to check, to makesure.
Otherwise, you go back to yourhammer and nail because your
consumer will see and they willsniff out.
Hold on a second, because I cansee when something's done by AI,
I'm fine by it.
Use it to help you templatize,but then you need to go in and
(34:40):
clean it up.
It still needs that extracleanup.
So I think it's great because itcuts our time in half, but
without the effort still needsto be there.
It's just expediting the dirtywork that, you know, like a
roomba came out.
Guess what?
I don't need to do my floor, butI still need to make sure the
roomba is going around thecorners because it can still be
going back to the same spot overand over again, still leave the
(35:02):
whole place dirty.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
No, exactly.
I mean, AI is still, I mean,even for and look, I'm I I
started my career as a writer.
I still consider myself a writerand I will to the end of time.
I wrote my first story at theage of five.
I used to write some halfwaydecent poetry a long time ago.
And you know, AI contentcreation makes me nervous on the
one hand, but I think as abusiness person, I think it can
be a super handy tool.
(35:24):
You know, I still get the thrillof AI quoting me back at me.
It's hysterical.
unknown (35:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
In a lot of business contexts.
But, you know, in some cases, Ithink, especially if you're
planning like, you know, amarketing-focused piece or
you're trying to do, you know,kind of focused collateral for
Instagram and and things likethat.
AI can be great to help, as yousay, with ideation.
I think from a content creationside, it does greatly speed
things up, but you always needto make sure that you refine it
there.
But you know, the one thing I dolike is AI.
(35:52):
AI embeds a lot of, and part ofthe reason I always say it's
garbage in, garbage out with isAI.
And we spend a lot of times withbrands making them basically
making their content ecosystemready for AI because AI loves
structure, right?
AI loves structure, it lovesmean, it loves predictable
patterns, it loves, you know,unique patterns of meaning and
all of that.
And then it's still learning howto do this.
(36:13):
But I think for things likelow-lying content production for
say an Instagram caption or evenlike, you know, again,
structuring your productdescriptions to ensure that you
have the right parts ofinformation.
Like don't forget your fabrics,don't forget the, you know, how
to use it, things like that,FAQs, a lot of basic content
pieces.
It can be great for helping youmake sure you have that right
hierarchy for all of that.
(36:34):
But again, you need to make sureyou as have humans behind it to
ensure that the output says whatyou needed to do and that you're
always doing that.
And, you know, we we we alwaysrecommend that brands of every
size at this time of year, forinstance, do a content audit.
Figure out kind of, you know, doyou still have stuff on your
website from three years agothat you really don't need to be
promoting anymore that you canactually clean out and move on
there?
(36:55):
And AI can actually be prettycool at doing some of those sort
of little mini content auditsand things for you.
But you know, sometimes bringingin an expert to put to plug
myself again for all this thatassets your ecosystem as a whole
to look on the places that AI isnot going to, like, which is how
connected are you?
How connected is your contentdigitally to what you're doing
in store and things like thatcan bring in the experts can
(37:17):
help.
But for smaller brands, that'snot always realistic.
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
So Oh my goodness.
Jessica, Dr.
Jessica, this has been adelight.
How can we find you, follow you,learn more about you and your
colleagueslash husband, and allthat good stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
So our company website is it's working
title.com, and we also runFashion Strategy Weekly uh dot
com.
And I'm always on LinkedIn,usually writing a lot about
content and luxury and AIthings, all that good stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (37:46):
Thank you so much for joining us.
We'll have to have a uh a Stateof the Union perhaps and as a
follow-up coming in the future,because this is this has been
enlightening.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewand follow us on every single
platform at handbag designer.
Thanks so much.
See you next time.
Helping brand teams do more with what they have and
maybe relying a little bit lesson the marketing agencies and
things like that, that they sendeverything out, but to really
own that story more in-house sothey can actually help shape how
that's heard on the other endand you know create sort of just
better, deeper stories thateveryone wants to be a part of
that are really unique to thatbrand across platforms.
(00:20):
And so yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (00:22):
Hi, and welcome to Handbag Designer 101, the
podcast with your host, EmilyBlumenthal, Handbag Industry
Expert, and the Handbag PerryGodmother.
Each week we uncover the storiesbehind the handbags we love,
from the iconic brands and topdesigners, the creativity,
craftsmanship, and culture thatdefine the handbag world.
Whether you're a designer,collector, or simply passionate
(00:43):
about handbags, this is yourfront row seat to it all.
Welcome, welcome, Dr.
Jessica Quillen of It's aWorking Title and Fashion
Strategy Weekly.
Thank you for joining us andwelcome to Handbag Designer 101.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04):
Thank you so much for having me today, Emily.
I'm a huge fan and it's a it's apleasure to chat today.
SPEAKER_01 (01:09):
I know.
Well, you know, like what drewme to you was your PhD, your
sexy PhD, that not a lot ofpeople have in this industry.
And as I mentioned to you aminute ago, that I truly believe
you are a one-of-one.
And you are inspiring, I think,and should inspire everybody all
over the world to get a PhD,because I think it's just such a
(01:31):
good thing to say, if for noother reason, just that we can
call you doctor.
And you know, that's a flex.
Um except that there's anemergency on an airplane, in
which case I'm totally useless.
Not okay, comma, not thatdoctor, but the cool doctor.
But how is all this?
Because you you have a veryunique specialty.
(01:51):
You did a lot of deep diving onsomething that made you and kind
of took you to where you are.
So let's just dive right in.
What's your story, Jessica?
No pressure.
SPEAKER_00 (02:02):
So, first of all, I should contextualize that, you
know, my PhD is not in fashion,but my PhD is actually what drew
me to fashion and luxury in thefirst place through sort of the
unique lens of my research.
I have a PhD in 19th centuryBritish literature, specifically
poetry um and music.
My doctoral research, if youwant to dive that deep, looked
at intersections between poetryand music and the life and
(02:22):
thought of the romantic PerseusShelley.
You know, right, but really atthe heart of my research is that
I spent four, four years, youknow, steeped in aesthetics and
the kind of history andphilosophy of beauty and really
kind of what drives people tokind of more elevated
experiences, you know, kind oflooking at the place where, you
know, kind of art becomesemotion and emotion kind of
(02:46):
drives experience and all ofthat, and kind of looking at the
intricacies of how languagebecomes imbued with meaning and
how that meaning can sort ofbecome, you know, personalized
and something you own and cankind of shape how you think.
And there's this whole kind ofdeep theory for Shelley in terms
of how art can make the world abetter place and really kind of
drive more imaginative type ofexpression.
(03:08):
And really, you know, kind ofthat research and my book, which
is actually available on Amazonfor anyone who wants to read a
really boring academic work,kind of drove me.
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
It's called Shelley and the Musical Poetics of
Romanticism.
Okay, good.
That's it, okay.
Now we had to plug that.
Back to you.
SPEAKER_00 (03:25):
So, you know, my research drove me.
I didn't sort of my fate was notto teach.
Uh my fate was really to kindof, I guess, work in content and
in marketing contexts.
So, you know, I've been acontent strategist for about 20
years in different roles.
I started out in the arts.
I used to ghost write for Plazade Domingo, uh running
communications and marketing atWashington National Opera.
(03:47):
And, you know, that eventuallyled me to fashion as uh first as
a freelancer and then as afashion editor for Glass uh
magazine, which is a culturalquarterly edit of the UK for
about 10 years, from about 2012to 2022.
You know, I sort of had a dayjob on the side as an enterprise
content strategist kind of alongthe way.
And, you know, after doing thatfor a while, I took a little bit
(04:07):
of time off from fashion duringthe pandemic because everything
was crazy in the pandemic, andyou kind of just get sensorly
overloaded with things and youhave to kind of focus on what
really matters.
But I kind of took two years offfrom the magazine and working in
fashion, and then I kind of cameback to it with a more refreshed
lens and started doingconsulting and really started to
see kind of just huge gaps inthe way that fashion and luxury
(04:29):
brands were handling contentacross platforms.
I mean, you know, uhpost-pandemic, luxury was still
in this big sort of phase ofgrowth with e-commerce, but I
look at digital content andcontent in general kind of a
little bit differently fromeverybody else.
For me, content is very much aneverywhere thing, not just a
digital thing.
And for me, brands were reallyfocused on doing e-com and doing
social media over here, and itall just feel very disconnected
(04:52):
to me.
You know, you have brandsbuilding e-com experiences,
which are very pretty and kindof very design first, but they
don't necessarily meet userneeds in the way that I want
them to.
I really want to have this more,everybody talks about
Omnichannel in the back end, butthey don't talk about it as much
on the front end in terms ofcreating more guided experiences
for consumers that reallyactually match how people search
and find content acrosschannels.
(05:13):
And so looking at this sort ofmore cohesive storytelling
across the universe of a brand'scontent touch points, which for
me are everywhere from digitalcontent on their econ site and
their website all the waythrough what goes down the
runway to in-person experiencesin the store.
So three years ago, I sat downwith my business partner, who is
also my husband, and we started,it's a working title, really
(05:34):
looking to educate, but alsobring the sort of practice of
holistic content strategy andcontent operations to the world
of luxury.
And we're now writing a bookkind of around a lot of the work
we do, but really the principlesare pretty simple.
It's just to really help brandstell better stories that people
actually want to hear that matchtheir brand codes and values
across platforms with the rightinfrastructure underneath it
(05:57):
from a publishing standpoint toget that content out the door.
You know, there are ways thatthings like AI can streamline
how all of that works and thingslike that, but helping brand
teams do more with what theyhave and maybe relying a little
bit less on the marketingagencies and things like that,
that they send everything out,but to really own that story
more in-house so they canactually help shape how that's
heard on the other end and youknow, create sort of just
(06:20):
better, deeper stories thateveryone wants to be a part of
that are really unique to thatbrand across platforms.
And so yeah.
And we also publish a lot ofthought leadership through
Fashion Strategy Weekly as well,because yeah, can't turn off
that academic in my head.
SPEAKER_01 (06:32):
So so I mean, this there's oh my god, this is so
juicy.
And, you know, I think for thoseof us who get excited about this
information and everythingyou're saying, like there are
people like me who hear that andI'm like, tell me more, tell me
more, tell me what the pitfallsare, tell me what they're doing
wrong.
What are the things that yousee?
Because and I know you you speaka lot about luxury, luxury, but
(06:57):
I think there's so many brandsthat just miss the mark, and
there's so many windows ofopportunity to be very
thoughtful on brand messaging.
And can you just talk a littlebit about just basic
fundamentals where you seebrands misstep?
Where I mean, look, I teach, Iteach entrepreneurship, I teach
(07:20):
it to college students.
There's a lot of things that areobvious to us that aren't
obvious to other people.
That so many brands get lost inthe sauce, they get excited
about the principle of having abrand, the principle of having a
product, that they forget, youknow, the the ethnography of
like understanding theircustomer where they shop, how
like the who and the why and allthat, like trying to meet the
(07:43):
customer where they are, so theydevelop a product around the
needs of who their customer is.
And speaking just because I'mfluent handbag, going so far as
to say that if you're a customerthat you know is your loyal
customer and she is above acertain age, never have a lining
that's dark because she hasglasses, she'll never find it.
And make sure the bags you'reselling have some sort of
(08:04):
structure.
Nobody wants a bag that's anabyss, right?
You lose that for whoever you'retrying to sell.
What are some things that, like,if a brand comes to you, I see
you're ready to talk, thatyou're like, okay, here's some
low-hanging fruit.
Let's go.
unknown (08:17):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:18):
And honestly, that low-hanging fruit is always the
best place to start.
I mean, I don't know.
For me, for a brand of any size,and we we talk a lot about
luxury because luxury is kind ofunique to any other industry.
Luxury does not exist withoutstory, right?
Like there's nothing that the, Imean, you can find an
equivalent, say, bag, to talkabout bags that is crafted with,
you know, similar artisanalcraftsmanship at much lower
(08:40):
price points from smallervendors than you do from big
luxury brands in some cases.
But luxury brands have theheritage, they have the story.
Even if they don't have theheritage, they have the the vibe
in the budget.
Is it because they have thebudget?
Is it because they have thebudget?
It's partially it's partiallythe budget, and part of it is
just a perception of elevatedmeaning, right?
It's their they're bevelinggoods, right?
The the pricing doesn'tnecessarily make sense logically
(09:01):
from the business standpoint.
They're they're priced at acertain point because people
believe they they're worth more.
They're valued because they'repeople believe they're they're
high-end, right?
They believe that they aretimeless, one of a kind, you
unique, kind of worth theinvestment kind of thing.
So we spend a lot of time withluxury brands and talking about
luxury because for them, contentneeds to be very specific,
refined, and elevated, but alsostill culturally relevant in
(09:24):
today's market.
And that's a lot harder to dogiven sort of the state of a lot
of content marketing toolsavailable kind of right now.
So, I mean, we focus a lot abouton that sector, not just because
of the money, but because of thesort of unique nature of
storytelling for a lot ofbrands.
And I, as you and I were kind ofdiscussing before, coming out of
the pandemic, a lot of thesebrands rushed into e-com kind of
unprepared for the type for howcontent kind of how their their
(09:47):
overall brand ethos, this ideaof kind of being elusive and
kind of higher end, fits withinthis new ecosystem.
If you're saying a smallerbrand, a more digitally native
brand within this sort ofdigital ecosystem, there are a
lot of things that those typesof brands know just because
they've, you know, grown up onTikTok or they've grown up on
Instagram that a lot of biggerbrands that have maybe been
around for 150 years don't know.
(10:08):
So we're trying to kind of teacha lot of those sort of digital
native instincts to biggerbrands and help them kind of get
content out the door in a waythat gets those processes and,
you know, kind of meanings inplace there.
But to your point for yourquestion in terms of what we see
in terms of content isespecially for brands of any
size, is just, I don't want tosay it's a fear, but it's this
(10:29):
very sort of reactionary mindsetthat's much more focused on
building visibility.
I mean, when I uh say we givelectures a lot to say college
students and people starting newbrands, you know, kind of even
people that maybe a couple ofyears into that brand journey.
And, you know, the firstquestion I get asked when I say
I'm a content strategist is howdo I make my content go viral?
(10:50):
And I always pause because Iknow the question's coming.
And, you know, our response tothat is always, you know, that's
not the right question, right?
The the question is not how doyou go go viral?
It's really why are youproducing content in the first
place?
You know, who are you tellingstories to?
What stories do you need to betelling?
What makes your brand differentthan other brands?
(11:13):
And how do you use content tokind of drive those brand values
and codes to build experienceskind of through content for
people?
And, you know, as I, as we weresaying kind of before we came
on, for me, I mean, for me,content is an everywhere thing,
not just a digital thing, andsomething that drives experience
both, you know, kind of throughthrough language, but also
through visual cues, assets, andthings like that across
(11:35):
channels.
And if it does not feel the sameeverywhere customers meet your
brand, whether that's in personat a trunk show or on your
social media, if that does notfeel like the same website in
today's absolutely justsaturated landscape, you're not
going to stand out and peoplewill forget you.
So the whole idea, I think, forsmaller brands is to really take
a step back, define a lot ofthose sort of, I know they sound
(11:57):
very esoteric brand questions,but they can really help you
make better decisions aboutcontent.
Answer a lot of those, writethem down for yourself and sort
of some sort of brand matrix andthings like that.
And then for me, that's wherethe fun starts with content
strategy, because it's reallyfor me much more a practice of
putting brand strategy intoaction, but it's creating a
smaller universe to start from.
And then you can start saying,okay, what platforms do I have?
(12:20):
How can I tell the story in kindof some interesting ways that
make sense for what I'm tryingto do, what my products are, who
my audiences are, but also kindof what resources do I have to
kind of drive content that I canmaintain.
And for me, a lot of the sort ofimportant part about planning
ahead for content and not justkind of driving marketing out
(12:40):
the door and throwing up contentand trying to do things is
taking it into smaller chunks,even if you're a smaller brand
and you know, picking a smallercampaign and say piloting a
series of like three Instagramreels or three TikTok posts that
kind of all have that sort ofconceptual idea together, like
almost like a mini-series kindof thing, and piloting it and
seeing kind of how that works,see what you learn about your
audiences and how well thoseparticular messages resonate and
(13:03):
kind of move from there.
So it's really break it down,start small and you know, pick a
channel and experiment for a bitand then and then try another
experiment.
And then after say two or threeof these, see what you've
learned, and then you start toget information about what
content is really like whatspecific formulation of content
(13:23):
and stories and kind of balanceof product and whatever you're
trying to do with your storiesmakes sense for your brand, and
you start to get unique kind ofcontent from that sort of
formulation.
So I just think everybody makesit too complicated.
So really breaking it down,making it in smaller pieces, and
then you can kind of build yourcontent strategy from there
based on that sort of fast andlearned approach.
SPEAKER_01 (13:45):
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You know, I couldn't agree withyou more, but I have a whole
lesson specific to guerrillamarketing, to ambient media, and
now I've folded that intoexperiential and immersive
experience.
Well, that's redundant.
Experience opportunations, ifyou will.
(14:31):
I know I it's funny.
I was writing it and I'm like,how do you write experiential
experiences?
That's not it.
It's experien immersiveexperiential activations.
I was going through that to tryand figure that out.
It's a funny place right now interms of how and where people
will spend their money.
And things and services are alot harder to get people to
(14:54):
spend their money on.
I feel like the lift or I can'tspeak too specifically with
luxury, you can more than I.
But I feel based on what I'veseen that experiences people are
willing to spend that moneybecause community is king,
right?
It's a way to get like-mindedpeople to come together.
(15:16):
We just spoke about thisarticle, interestingly enough,
it was I can't remember which UKpaper it was from about adults
who are obsessed with jelly catsand spending upwards of 3,000
pounds to collect them.
But and my students, we had thiswhole conversation about how
ridiculous they are.
And my Gen Z students were Ipity them.
(15:36):
Maybe they weren't getting hugsas a child and all that stuff.
And I said, I agree.
Maybe all that could be true.
But the reality is there's onethread that you're all missing,
and that's what do they all havein common?
And then one student said, acommunity said, Yes, you will
find one adult who's obsessedwith spending that, you'll find
(15:57):
another one, and then they willall come together and want to be
together because they havesomething like-minded.
So I feel like now, and maybeyou can speak to this that
experience is an immersive waysof getting your customer
involved in your brand carries alot more value than something
short form, like a pop-up.
(16:17):
I don't know.
Thoughts.
SPEAKER_00 (16:20):
No, I totally agree.
And you see that working withit's funny.
I I just uh saw an interview onLinkedIn.
Uh LinkedIn's a bit weird rightnow, but anyways, with uh Gene
Silverstein, the CMO of Coach.
I know their head of visualmartializing Giovanni Zaccaria,
you know, kind of as anacquaintance, and I've talked to
it with him about how they sortof build experiences right
through this kind of new focusedstrategy.
(16:40):
And really, experience in withthem as a perfect example of
that is it comes from a numberof places, but for me, the true
community building happens whenyou really own your brand codes,
you know your brand more thananyone else and kind of how what
that speaks to.
And they've kind of re-redefinedaround this sort of very
well-focused Gen Z strategy.
And you build experience andcommunity through emotion,
(17:03):
right?
So it's it's how did that brandappeal to the emotions of those
consumers?
And then how do you buildemotions into shared values,
right?
And when you build emotion intoshared values, that's where
experience kind of becomescommunity and where community
kind of builds brand loyalty.
And it's sort of this, I'm suresomebody could diagram it better
than I can in my head, but it'sand you see this sort of push
(17:25):
towards nostalgia a lot.
And I think for me, from my youknow, academic analyzing
everything to that standpoint, alot of that I think is
post-pandemic drive towards thatchildhood feeling of the world
is kind of messed up right now,okay, very messed up, especially
if you're in the the US withthings and this sort of sense
that like the economy is notgoing great for some people in
some circumstances.
(17:46):
And you know, buying cute thingsgives you that sense of kind of
childhood pleasure andnostalgia.
I mean, what else can explainlaboo boos, which for me, if you
grew up in the 80s, man chichislike a man chichi on a chain.
Like, okay, oh, I get it fromthat sort of again, nostalgia
standpoint, but again, it'saround that that sense of it
triggers those really happyemotions of like feeling like
you're a kid and this is thisfun collectible there.
(18:08):
And you know, I think, you know,as any, it doesn't you don't
have to be a psychologist toknow that people want to belong
to something.
And I think, you know, a brandat any stage of maturity has the
potential with today's tools toto do this type of build this
type of of loyalty.
And this is why you see so manyeven big brands leaning into,
you know, microcommunities andthings like this.
And you have people in, youknow, small locales who are like
(18:31):
obsessed with their local bagelshop or something, right?
And that local bagel shop cansomehow manage to go viral on
TikTok because they have figuredout how to create content that
conveys the emotion of whyeverybody loves that bagel shop
and that sort of thing.
And you know, I think everyfashion designer on the planet
has the creativity and theskills to do this within today's
tool.
But it's really from our sense,I mean, we've actually just I
(18:54):
was telling you before we cameon, you know, I I think I've
done something that nobody elsehas done before, which is both
good and bad, because I'm I'm anacademic, not a salesperson.
But we just kind of launched ourfirst uh one of our core
products after about a year ofworking on this.
And it's called FlexNar, it's anarrative design system, but
it's basically designed to helpbrands have a system for telling
stories across channels, kind ofbuilding from those foundational
(19:16):
brand codes and using the if youto go in my content strategy
toolkit, the tools of structuredcontent, which are basically
just like Legos.
We turn basically brand codesinto like Lego bricks that once
you combine them together indifferent ways with things like,
you know, metadata and justdifferent types of meanings, you
can use those small brand codesto combine with other brand
codes into, you know, kind ofparts of stories, and parts of
(19:37):
stories become full stories, andfull stories can be combined
with other stories on differentchannels to become sort of a
full story ecosystem.
And we have a whole kind offramework that that drives this.
But the point is with this isthat every brand on the planet
has the chance to kind of stepback and figure out who they
are, what makes them differentfrom somebody else, and defining
what that set of values is, andthen really focusing on
(19:59):
understanding their audiencesand understand how figure out
how those codes can really buildemotion and build community
within those those channels.
And again, I for me that's youknow, starting small really
helps.
But you know, experience comesfrom building whatever emotional
connection you want.
I mean, you you saw aroundHalloween a lot of sort of
people leaning into the, youknow, the the fright manifestos
(20:20):
and this sort of thing.
I mean it was in, you know, theFifth Avenue, my romanticist
lines here.
The the windows at Tiffany is onFifth Avenue leaning into the
Frankenstein movie that justcame out there.
Of course, I have lots ofopinions on that as a
romanticist there, but I'm surethe windows on Fifth Avenue are
just like, I mean, walking bythe Tiffany shop there with the,
they have uh the one of thenecklaces in the window there.
(20:42):
There are shots of Mia Gothbehind it kind of from the movie
thought, and at the top you'vegot all this lightning and stuff
like this.
And it's the experiential kindof elements, those sort of
dynamic, you know, uh visualdesign things like that cues
draw you into the experience.
And the window is only a window,right?
So it's not like doing anything,but it's evoking emotion.
And there are just peoplestopping and watching and
recording it and putting it onuh TikTok, and you build these
(21:05):
shareable moments, and you know,in a sense, that's how you get
community, and you know, it'sit's figuring out what emotions
you want to build, or how do youtell your stories that build
that create those emotions?
And then how do you turn thoseemotions into experiences that
can get a life of their own andbuild a living ecosystem for
your brand?
And for me, any brand of anysize has the potential to do
(21:25):
that, but it does take somework.
SPEAKER_01 (21:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, I think like with a lot ofthe brands with whom I've
worked, and again, uh specificto handbag, so many of them get
so obsessed on the principle ofsaying they're a designer,
saying they're a brand, sayingthey've created product.
But again, without creatingthese kinds of experiences and
(21:51):
emotional connections, it'sreally hard to get that 80-20.
You know, 80% of your businesscomes from 20% of your
customers.
It's hard to find that 20because that 20 is your
community.
So, what can you do to get thoseeyeballs locked into this kind
of emotional connection?
And truly, that has to come downto experience.
(22:14):
And I put my students to task,like, okay, come up with
something out of the box.
And I made it very clear like,you can't have stickers, you
can't have a scavenger hunt, youcan't have a barter swap, you
can't do QR codes on the ground.
Like, what can you do that canmake a moment?
Because even using Blair Witchas the case study of what they
(22:38):
did, what that was just flyeringthe East Coast of saying that
people were missing, that thepolice picked it up, the news
picked it up, that predatedsocial media.
And then once they got theirthree-picture deal, no one ever
heard from it again.
Because sometimes when you'rescrappy, you work 10 times
harder because you don't havethe resources.
So sometimes when you get themoney, then all of a sudden the
(22:59):
creativity's out the wall.
And then it's like, okay, we'lldo X amount of ads, we'll do X
amount, we'll give to theseinfluencers, and then you're
just like everybody else.
And to your point, I believeeverybody has that capacity to
stand out, to be something, butyou do have to put in that work.
Do you put your clients to taskand give them homework and
(23:21):
saying, okay, you need to fillout a manifesto, if you will, so
we've got something to workwith.
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SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
So we do a lot of work.
So we do the answer is yes, butwe try to make it fun through
interactive workshops.
Um, you know, I think it's a alot of, especially in sort of
the discovery phase with a lotof stuff we do, we have our own
sort of content effectivenessplatform that kind of analyzes
sort of how what what thecurrent state of your content is
across platforms for for a lotof this.
But you know, at the end of theday, whenever we finish an audit
(25:23):
and make recommendations andthat whole thing, you know, part
of that sort of help usunderstand who you are and then
help us figure out both whatyour what what your strengths
are with content and kind ofwhere there are gaps and places
to optimize.
It's amazing how many times,even for like some of the
largest, most recognizable blendbrands on the planet, how much
it boils down to that there'snot a lot of system structure or
(25:43):
strategy in terms of how they docontent.
Like they do content, like theirbrand is, you know, kind of
expressed in different waysthrough words and ads and in
social media content posts overhere and product packaging and
all of this.
And for most brands, a lot ofthat decision making is
amazingly siloed.
And some of this is obvious,like I mean, you were talking
about the the sort of pace oftoday's business landscape.
(26:04):
But even for small brands, theurge to kind of do everything at
once is there, right?
I mean, content is 24-7.
Now you feel like you need to beon LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram,
you know, driving paid, orgonna, I mean, it gets very
dizzying for for things likethat.
And for us, we just tried andI'm all about simplifying, I'm
all about streamlining, I'm allabout starting small and really
(26:26):
even for small brands, makingthat bucket of things you can do
now to make your life easier,but more connected.
So, you know, for some brands,it may be a matter of
centralizing how you do stuff,like instead of using five tools
to do produce content, maybe youknow, use Canva more to do
things or or things like that,or centralize more of your CRMRM
(26:47):
efforts into HubSpot or intoShopify with all of their sort
of plugins for everything andcreating more integrated
approaches to things that arekind of more centralized.
And I think for smaller brands,that's a really key thing.
For bigger players, that'sharder because their ecosystems
are much more diverse.
They have a lot of teams, a lotof tools and things like that.
And we look to build moredecentralized kind of approaches
to brand and content that createmore integrated things between
(27:10):
teams so teams can collaboratebetter.
But again, it's still a matterof simplifying, streamlining,
figuring out what's mostimportant to do now and not
getting overwhelmed byeverything you think you have to
do, and then phasing out, okay,what can I do next?
What can I do next?
And then from there, as youstart planning things more
incrementally, that suddenlybecomes a strategy.
And you're, you know, that sortof smaller thing always starts
(27:30):
out by initially mapping outwhat do I actually want this to
look like at that end state?
Like, what is my, as you'resaying, talking about experience
and community, like what kind ofcommunity do I want to have?
What kind of brand do I want tobe?
And you can kind of start to mapfrom those smaller things into
the bigger thing.
And you, you, it it all shouldcome from that sense of these
are my values as a brand, theseare my codes, this is what makes
(27:51):
me me, as opposed to somebodyelse.
And as you start to kind of dothis step by step, as long as
you're maintaining that sort ofstaying system of core values,
you start to build community onyour own because you're, you
know, really owning who who youare and you're talking as
yourself, you're picking thoseinfluencers who really make
sense for your brand universeand you're building a universe
that you're, for the most part,controlling.
(28:13):
And even if you're letting thatevolve on its own through in
through influencers and thingslike that, it still comes from
that more kind of centralizedbase of this is my brand and
this is what I want to do onthese platforms.
And our idea is that this makesjust life a lot easier for
brands and lets you focus onmaking your handbags or, you
know, making your jewelry orselling cars or whatever it is
(28:34):
you want to do.
SPEAKER_01 (28:35):
What are, just because I don't want to hold you
too too long, what are some bestpractices that you would give to
a brand that you would speakwith that would say, okay,
before you and I even meet, makesure you have your home in
order.
What does that mean?
(28:56):
What does having your home inorder mean?
SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
So we have a sort of, I mean, and brands can do
with ChatGBC, we can do almostanything now with these things.
But I always like to ask brandsto kind of give themselves a,
you know, kind of brand healthcheck assessment kind of thing.
Like, you know, give yourself acheckup on, you know, kind of
how do you, you know, kind of doyou have your kind of brand
story, you know, documentedsomewhere, you know, kind of
(29:21):
what systems are you?
I mean, we deal with content.
So what are the systems andtools you're using to do what
you do?
Like, like, are you are youusing Shopify to sell all your
products over here?
What channels are you on?
Document everything you have andmake sure you can kind of write
down, this is why I'm doingthat, these are the resources I
have for this, and just kind ofensure do that little homework
exercise to kind of document howyou're communicating your brand
(29:42):
across channels, you know, kindof what does your current
marketing strategy look like?
And then do a little mini, youknow, kind of gap analysis on
your own, you know, kind of whatam I struggling with?
What are those pain points?
And then use those to startthinking about, you know, these
are my short term goals andthese are my long term goals.
And You know, I think whenbrands have spent the time to
(30:03):
think about that sort of listof, you know, kind of little
checklist health healthassessment thing, it allows us
to kind of know where to startwith things like content
strategy in, you know, contentmarketing and a lot of you know
tools like that to drive bettercontent across channels.
But we kind of need those ducksin a row first because, you
know, there are much biggerbrand strategy experts on the
(30:24):
planet who will help you figureout, you know, your brand colors
and your story and how to kindof a lot of founder led brands,
how to separate your story fromthe, you know, your brand story
and kind of how all that sort ofstorytelling art universe is
there.
We can actually sit down andhelp you sh use that story to
turn it into a narrative systemthat drives a content strategy,
but you really need to kind ofhave the rest of it kind of
together before you can do, youknow, before you're kind of
(30:47):
ready for us.
And, you know, it's somethingthat any brand at any stage of
maturity can can do.
But again, you do have to kindof allow yourself the the space
for for thinking a little bit tokind of take a step back and
really figure out, okay, I knowthis is not working, you know,
say Instagram is not achievingthe kind of reach you you want
for things, and I want to dothings better, you know.
Okay, this is what I want to fixhere.
(31:08):
These are examples of people Ithink are doing things I like.
And then you start to be able tokind of make lists of ways to
optimize, and then we canactually help refine those sorts
of things.
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
No, I think like competitive analysis, right off
the bat, I always tell peoplesee what they're doing, mark
down what you like, what youdon't like, and your personal
slash professional opinion.
Exactly.
What resonates with you, youknow, is their flow of posts?
Is it product post on a cleanwhite background?
(31:37):
Is it lifestyle post of someoneusing it?
Then is it hopes, wishes, anddreams, a mantra, a field,
rainbows, fairies, unicorns?
What is their pattern?
Because nothing is an accident.
So unless it's somebody who'sjust doing it to do it, which I
think a lot of people arebecause they know that box must
be checked.
Like, okay, I must have a socialpresence, then what?
unknown (31:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
And the other elephant in the room for me is
AI.
AI is, I mean, it's inevitableat this point.
I think it's it has been a partof many tools for a while.
And people are now justrebranding everything as AI.
But I think as creative peopleand creators, it is so tempting
to just launch into AI and startreplacing, you know, people,
processes, and tools withAI-driven things.
(32:19):
But I always caution peopleagainst doing that because
again, AI can be a tool, it canbe a really great assistant in
very specific use cases.
But unless you can actually saywhy you're doing it, kind of
what value it's going to add.
Like, I mean, I think AI, forinstance, for smaller brands to
use AI to help you refineproduct descriptions, even and
do things like that, can begreat.
(32:41):
But in the new world of AIsearch, even your product
descriptions now need it's nolonger a matter of SEO.
Your product descriptions needto reflect your brand story a
lot, like literally down to themetadata that sits behind it and
the alt text you use to describeyour images.
You now need to have more uniquebrand identifiers on the way you
write those languages.
So it's something you use AI torewrite your product
(33:02):
descriptions, but in fact, youmay be rewriting your product
descriptions in a way that makesthem unreadable by AI because it
makes them generic.
So again, things like technologyshould be used with caution and
context, and it can speed upprocesses, I think, behind.
But I think for you know brandsat different stages.
Again, why do you need to usethese?
What are you trying to do withthem?
And even things like AI imagecreation and things like that, I
(33:24):
think for you know a brand atany stage, it needs to be done
in a way that feels purposeful,connected to your brand, and
always reflective of those brandcodes.
Otherwise, your consumers willknow the difference.
I mean, they and they, you know,you've seen brands from Mango to
you know HM get under fire foryou know using AI AI images
without either reporting it orthey have flaws.
(33:45):
I mean, they'll notice it, youknow, like the hairs on your
wrist don't look right and yourarm is facing the wrong way.
I mean, there's all sorts ofthings.
So I got right.
You've nine fingers withpurpose.
Everything with purpose.
SPEAKER_01 (33:56):
No, I tell my students, like, it is a
wonderful thing that AI exists,it's great, but at the end of
the day, it's a tool, it's notthe answer.
So at one point in time, peoplehad a hammer and nail, and then
someone invented a drill.
You still need the person behindthe drill, you still need the
person there to direct it.
(34:16):
Like, one's not replacing theother, one is trying to make
your life easier, but you stillneed to have the eyeballs behind
it to proof, to check, to makesure.
Otherwise, you go back to yourhammer and nail because your
consumer will see and they willsniff out.
Hold on a second, because I cansee when something's done by AI,
I'm fine by it.
Use it to help you templatize,but then you need to go in and
(34:40):
clean it up.
It still needs that extracleanup.
So I think it's great because itcuts our time in half, but
without the effort still needsto be there.
It's just expediting the dirtywork that, you know, like a
roomba came out.
Guess what?
I don't need to do my floor, butI still need to make sure the
roomba is going around thecorners because it can still be
going back to the same spot overand over again, still leave the
(35:02):
whole place dirty.
SPEAKER_00 (35:04):
No, exactly.
I mean, AI is still, I mean,even for and look, I'm I I
started my career as a writer.
I still consider myself a writerand I will to the end of time.
I wrote my first story at theage of five.
I used to write some halfwaydecent poetry a long time ago.
And you know, AI contentcreation makes me nervous on the
one hand, but I think as abusiness person, I think it can
be a super handy tool.
(35:24):
You know, I still get the thrillof AI quoting me back at me.
It's hysterical.
unknown (35:29):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (35:30):
In a lot of business contexts.
But, you know, in some cases, Ithink, especially if you're
planning like, you know, amarketing-focused piece or
you're trying to do, you know,kind of focused collateral for
Instagram and and things likethat.
AI can be great to help, as yousay, with ideation.
I think from a content creationside, it does greatly speed
things up, but you always needto make sure that you refine it
there.
But you know, the one thing I dolike is AI.
(35:52):
AI embeds a lot of, and part ofthe reason I always say it's
garbage in, garbage out with isAI.
And we spend a lot of times withbrands making them basically
making their content ecosystemready for AI because AI loves
structure, right?
AI loves structure, it lovesmean, it loves predictable
patterns, it loves, you know,unique patterns of meaning and
all of that.
And then it's still learning howto do this.
(36:13):
But I think for things likelow-lying content production for
say an Instagram caption or evenlike, you know, again,
structuring your productdescriptions to ensure that you
have the right parts ofinformation.
Like don't forget your fabrics,don't forget the, you know, how
to use it, things like that,FAQs, a lot of basic content
pieces.
It can be great for helping youmake sure you have that right
hierarchy for all of that.
(36:34):
But again, you need to make sureyou as have humans behind it to
ensure that the output says whatyou needed to do and that you're
always doing that.
And, you know, we we we alwaysrecommend that brands of every
size at this time of year, forinstance, do a content audit.
Figure out kind of, you know, doyou still have stuff on your
website from three years agothat you really don't need to be
promoting anymore that you canactually clean out and move on
there?
(36:55):
And AI can actually be prettycool at doing some of those sort
of little mini content auditsand things for you.
But you know, sometimes bringingin an expert to put to plug
myself again for all this thatassets your ecosystem as a whole
to look on the places that AI isnot going to, like, which is how
connected are you?
How connected is your contentdigitally to what you're doing
in store and things like thatcan bring in the experts can
(37:17):
help.
But for smaller brands, that'snot always realistic.
SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
So Oh my goodness.
Jessica, Dr.
Jessica, this has been adelight.
How can we find you, follow you,learn more about you and your
colleagueslash husband, and allthat good stuff?
SPEAKER_00 (37:31):
So our company website is it's working
title.com, and we also runFashion Strategy Weekly uh dot
com.
And I'm always on LinkedIn,usually writing a lot about
content and luxury and AIthings, all that good stuff.
SPEAKER_01 (37:46):
Thank you so much for joining us.
We'll have to have a uh a Stateof the Union perhaps and as a
follow-up coming in the future,because this is this has been
enlightening.
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks for listening.
Don't forget to rate and reviewand follow us on every single
platform at handbag designer.
Thanks so much.
See you next time.
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