Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 13 | Heather Lisk - Hanging with Humans

Episode Transcript
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RJ (00:00):
I

Heather (00:06):
Hello everybody, welcome to the Hanging with
Humans podcast.
It's your host, rj Ferreira,and today, this evening, I have
a very special guest.
I now consider this person aclose friend of mine.

(00:27):
Would you like to go ahead andintroduce yourself?

RJ (00:32):
Well, hi, rj.
Thank you for having me onHanging with Humans.
In the six weeks we've knowneach other, I have to list you
among the best friends I've everhad in the top five.
Really, yeah, yeah, you'repretty sweet.

Heather (00:51):
No, seriously, I appreciate that so much and
seriously, like the last week,you've helped me so much set
this place up.
You know my home base and andyeah, I can't thank you enough
like even if it was very hardfor us to accomplish some of the

(01:13):
most minor tasks but you meanlike putting together chinese
furniture.
Yeah, yeah, that sucked yeah itdid suck, but we got it to where
we're just about done.
So tomorrow we're going tofinish that off and that will be

(01:34):
like the feather in our cap ofthe last week before you leave
back to Kansas.
Ohio, Not Kansas, sorry Ohio.
How are you feeling about thatmove?

RJ (01:43):
I am very, very torn up about it, and not because things
went south with my ex, butbecause I love Montana.
I just started making true,true friends.
Like you, like Brando, some ofmy neighbors, I've been here for

(02:04):
almost a year and now I finallyjust branched out of my shell
and I feel like I know I'm notlosing out, but I feel like I do
.
And then you have to think whenyou move away from somewhere,
especially when you do itseveral times and you always go
back to it, it doesn't matterhow old you are, you're going to
feel like a failure, but I wasmore than happy to help you

(02:24):
because you've helped me buildmeasure and you always go back
to it.
It doesn't matter how old youare.
You're going to feel like afailure, but I was more than
happy to help you because you'vehelped me be on measure.

Heather (02:31):
Thank you so much, like seriously, from the bottom of
my heart.
I think you helped me just asmuch as you know vice versa.
So thank you so much.
I hope I've done some goodanyway.
No, you absolutely have.
I've learned a lot in the shortamount of time we've spent
together, which has been full ofturmoil on both sides.

(02:52):
You know a little bit.

RJ (02:54):
Absolutely.

Heather (02:57):
When I got here I was kind of going through my own
thing and didn't have anyfriends out here, didn't really
know anybody.
And then, brandon, and youcan't come into my life and help
me through, you know one of thehardest things I've ever gone
through.
So you know, I think everythinghappens for a reason and I
think this all happened for areason.

RJ (03:18):
This podcast happened for a reason.
I know what you've gone throughbecause we've discussed it at
length in private, and if I evenhelped in the smallest way,
then I'm sincerely happy becausethat's exactly what you're
helping me through.

Heather (03:32):
Well, that's what friends do.
They're there for each other.

RJ (03:36):
I know you're the host, but can I ask you one question that
I forgot to ask?

Heather (03:41):
Yes, go ahead.

RJ (03:42):
When did you actually move here to Glendive?

Heather (03:54):
I think this would be my third month here and also,
but like the amount of time I'veactually spent here versus
since I, like, signed the lease,which was, like you know, three
months ago.
I travel so much and, um, yeah,I'm, I'm glad that, um, when I
do get to come back home andhear like that, you know, you
helped me build this, you knowwhat I mean and I know, yeah, I

(04:14):
know you're going to go and dogood things and then you're
going to be back to visit andwe'll be reminiscing on this all
over again, damn you're goingto make me cry.

RJ (04:25):
I was so happy to help you put it together.
I've had a lot of careers, butmy dream job and the one that I
enjoyed the most was being ahomemaker and a housewife.
Right, I really truly.
There's no shame in it.
No no no, I love cooking, Ilove cleaning, I love decorating
, not to sound sappy, but whenyou're in love with somebody,

(04:46):
you want to take care of them.
Yeah, and I just I love to bein that traditional role to a
degree.
Yeah, to a degree.
Yeah, not completelyold-fashioned.
Not to the 50s degree, yeah,yeah yeah, those are different
times.

Heather (05:03):
No, I think we have a lot in common, and I mean, I
know we have a lot in commonjust from what we've been
discussing over the last week.
Uh, you know, we, we both knowhow rampant mental illness is in
this country and in the world,that you know in general, and,
uh, I like to think that what Ido here with the podcast is like

(05:27):
a representation of how to, uh,you know, win a fight that
we've been losing in terms of,you know, losing people to these
type of things.

RJ (05:40):
That is such a good way of putting it win a fight that
we've been losing.
I'm writing that down in myquote book.
There you go.
I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Mental health has beenmarginalized and stigmatized for
millennia and it's just nowgetting attention.
Over the last hundred years,but really only over the last
few decades- yeah yeah, really.

Heather (06:03):
It's not easy to be vulnerable, but I feel that it's
very much worth it thesacrifice of maybe some privacy,
but in the name of helpingothers.
I'm really glad you're here todo this, and thank you for

(06:25):
accepting my invite to do thistoo.

RJ (06:28):
Absolutely.
Thank you so much for askingman.
It was an honor.

Heather (06:31):
Yeah, so let's start with getting to know you a
little bit.
Where were you born, heather?
And before I go into it, lastname and nickname please.

RJ (06:48):
The one that I—the acronym you mean.
Yes, okay, my last name is liskand everybody always thinks I'm
saying list or lips.
So they are like, how do youspell it?
I'm like l-i-s-k.
Like long island serial killer.
Long island serial killer.
I heard that on the documentaryabout him and it cracked me up
because it was my last name,that's so funny.

Heather (07:04):
And like, yeah, that was like the first day or two we
met over at the shop and I waslike last name, and you're like
Lisk, just remember this actionon Long Island Serial Killer and
I started dying.
I was like, oh OK, she's a goodshit, I knew it.
I was like right then and there.

RJ (07:23):
The first time I said that to somebody not to delve into
anything too dark, but I hadjust been getting out of a rehab
facility she's like, what'syour last name again?
And she's like, how do youspell that?
I was like like a Long Islandserial killer.
I was mad too, so I was in abad mood and I snapped at her.
She had such a good sense ofhumor.

(07:44):
She just broke up laughing andlooked at me like I was insane
and I loved it.
You know it.
Just it cracked me up.
I love that.
Oh my god.

Heather (07:53):
Yeah, you've lived quite the life, I would say.
You've done a lot.
You've gone a lot of places.
You've done a lot of things Canyou tell me about?
Wait, I should try and stay inchronological order, but I'm
just gonna go with what's goingto fly.
We're good, yeah, um, eventhough I just oh, yeah, uh,

(08:13):
traveling.
Um, you've done a lot oftraveling in your life, um,
where?
Uh?
I've asked this question beforeto other people.
Um, if you think of, like, afavorite place or place, if you
close your eyes and takeyourself to and you envision it,
what is that place and have youbeen there before?
Uh, what is it to you?
What does it mean to you?

RJ (08:33):
does underwater count?
that does um, no, uh, actually,uh, working for blackbeard crew.
I used to be a scuba instructorand working for blackbeard
cruises traveling from fortlauderdale to Freeport, grand
Bahama and back, crossing theGulf Stream four weeks on and
one week off, or six weeks onand two weeks off, with barracks

(08:56):
housing.
And these are small boats,these are not cruise ships.
These are like 12 to 15passenger boats with four to six
employees and just whetheryou're under the water or on it,
being out on or in the ocean isthe most tranquil I'm sorry I

(09:21):
can't talk tranquil, freeingfeeling I have ever had, really,
yeah, I mean therapy yeah,absolutely, absolutely,
especially with the scuba diving.
Um, I was telling you earlierabout, uh, my zen places, this
uh memory I have, uh beingunderwater, yeah, uh, and um, um
, as I was telling you, Irealized, uh, during, uh, one of

(09:48):
my scuba dives, when I was downthere, nothing, nothing can
disturb you.
There's no taxes, there's nomedical bills, there's no family
drama or harassment or bullshitPardon my language and there's
no.
I mean, even if the police havea warrant for you, they're not

(10:08):
going to get you while you'rescuba diving, not unless they're
as well trained as me.

Heather (10:15):
How did you end up getting into scuba diving school
and to become a teacher, notjust a?
Yeah, you were an instructor,right, yes, so yeah, how do you
get from?
I know, I know we're jumpingaround, I'm just hobby diving to
teaching it.

RJ (10:32):
Yeah, yeah, yes, I was always obsessed with the idea of
it and I only got to see theocean a very few times growing
up.
And, um, I had a friend inmarietta, ohio, which was where
I was born.
You asked um and he's uh, he'san older man.
Uh, oh, he'd kill me for sayingthat I can't say his age, or

(10:54):
he'd really kill me.
Uh, his name is joe.
And um, I found out he taughtscuba and there's a place in
west virginia called mount stormand it is a man-made dammed up
lake, uh, where they use thewater.
It's huge.
It's 90 feet deep at the trench.
They use the water from it tocool the turbines, uh, in the

(11:17):
power plant.
So in january in west virginiait's steaming, warm and all you
need is a bikini.
You don't need a wetsuit.
Well, if you're a woman, abikini.
I guess that's awesome.
I learned there in a lake up inWest Virginia and in what they
call blackwater diving.

(11:37):
I learned in the bends of theOhio River and that's something
you're not really supposed to dountil you're advanced, but I
became so obsessed with after myfirst trip to the bahamas.
I was so obsessed with it.
There was nothing else I wantedto do so.
Uh, my family put me through avery expensive probably the most

(12:00):
expensive dive school in theworld.
Really dang and we're sayingit's 36 grand 36 000 after the
interest, but um damn it, eventhough that is because most dive
schools are around two or threethousand.
I have no idea.
I went to the first one I couldfind online.

Heather (12:15):
I was like I'm out.

RJ (12:16):
I want to go.

Heather (12:17):
It was like one of the best ones you can go to it
looked like it anyway.

RJ (12:21):
Um, some bad things happened there, but it was also one of
the most beautiful experiencesof my life.
Um, so I learned in the floridakeys not not to scuba dive.
I already knew how to do that,but I had to teach how to save
lives, uh, as a first responder,in the water or on land.
Um, and I I did save a life.

(12:42):
Actually that amazing, and Idon't even remember the man's
name.
He was an older gentleman and,being 5'3 and 110 pounds and
strong enough to pull a220-pound man out of the water,
that meant the world that I wascapable of that.

Heather (13:02):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do anything, you know.
Yeah, because there was noother dive master on the boat.
It was capable of that.
You can do anything.

RJ (13:06):
There was no other dive master on the boat.
It was just me.

Heather (13:10):
That's a lot of responsibility on you.
And you came through.
That's amazing.

RJ (13:16):
I will be honest.
I tried to go in the army.
I didn't do so well at thatwith my heart condition.
I took karate three nights aweek.
I used to run, I used to BMXrace, I used to fight just for
fun.
I'm not your traditional girl.
And this scuba school washarder than all of those things

(13:37):
put together.
I can't even imagine it wasbrutal Dang.
It broke a lot of people.
I don't know why they were sohard, but uh, in the end it
turned me into one of the bestinstructors.
I'm lapsed now.
I don't teach anymore.
I barely even dive.

Heather (13:53):
but yeah, you're telling me, I, I need to do it.
You absolutely, yeah, I want, Iwant to.
I've always wanted to.
It's like it seems verytherapeutic as well, like you're
saying.

RJ (14:06):
My sister would go on vacations to Mexico and stuff
and you can get a weekendcertification where you take a
one-hour class and they'll takeyou out but they babysit you.
Well, she decided she wantedher real scuba license.
Unfortunately, she was in myclass and when I saw how she
flustered around in the water, Ifailed her.
She does not have her licensebecause she was in my class and
when I saw how she flusteredaround in the water I failed her
.
Dang, she does not have herlicense, dang.

(14:27):
Because she was going to drown.

Heather (14:29):
Well, I mean, yeah, you're just looking out for her.
Was she pissed?
Oh yeah, oh man.

RJ (14:33):
Yeah, she didn't talk to me for six months.
Whoa, you're just trying tosave her life, though, and she's
not even interested anymore.

Heather (14:41):
Yeah, I know, you didn't even like it anyways.

RJ (14:43):
It was like one of her, I want to do this for a whole
month, kind of things, and thenshe forgot about it.
With me it was always anobsession.

Heather (14:51):
I love that.
What would you say are otherobsessions that you have?
Stay on the positive side.

RJ (15:00):
You probably shouldn't have said that.
Okay, other obsessions I've hadI absolutely adore history,
languages and etymology, theorigin of words and phrases.
Let's see, I love cars.
I don't know much about them.
I wish I did.
Well, I know I like drivingthem and I know I'm good at it,

(15:25):
you know.
And then I absolutely adoreanimals.
I'm a kind of stick-to-myselfkind of girl, yeah, yeah, and I
know it's not kind of boring,but I am an avid, voracious
reader.
I am the kind of person thatgoes to the library and checks
out 35 books in a week andthey're all read within seven
days.

Heather (15:44):
I love that.

RJ (15:45):
I love to read.
Your education never stops,Even if you're reading fiction.

Heather (15:48):
your education never quits.
Seriously Well, I mean evenimproving your vocabulary.
Oh indeed.
Yeah, it's amazing.
Remember we were talking abouthow smart I look now.

RJ (15:59):
But you are smart.

Heather (16:02):
You're just silly, silly, I am for sure.
No, they look good, the bookslook good on the shelf.
I know I'm pumped, the wholething.
Oh, thank you for my uh coyote,my coyote skull, or is that
coyote, right?

RJ (16:14):
yes, yeah yes, that is a coyote skull and you are
absolutely welcome, uh, but I doneed to write myself a note to
mail you my khalil jabroncomplete works, that's right,
I'm dang, you remember that Ican't believe.
I don't remember where we weresupposed to go yesterday, but I
do remember, remember that.

Heather (16:30):
I know you're right.
So Heather has been helping meout a ton setting up my office
and just getting my crib inorder, the HQ headquarters for
Hanging with Humans,headquarters for Hanging with
Humans, and yeah, no, I'm sovery appreciative that I got to

(16:56):
spend all this time with Heatherbefore she goes off to do some
cool things.
So let's start from yourbeginning.
Where were you born?

RJ (17:10):
Well, I started out as a spur.
I'm sorry I'm not gonna say that, well, we're gonna go to the
very beginning.
Um, I was born in marietta,ohio, uh, and that is still my
hometown.
I haven't lived there forseveral years, but, um, I, when

(17:30):
I lived in ohio, I always livedclose by, within 20 or 30 miles.
Um, beautiful part of ohio.
I am not insane about ohiobecause they have a poor health
care system well, several poorhealth care systems, too many
restrictions on things.
They have horrible prisonsystem, do they?

(17:51):
Oh, absolutely, and their deathpenalty state.
I know you were asking, uh,somebody that you interviewed,
if texas was a death penaltystate well ohio is as well, but
west virginia is not really.
They did away with it in the 70s, um, so they're horrible with
health care for the most part.
Uh, the the the justice systemis what I call the injustice

(18:12):
system.
They will lock up somebody forpossession in a heartbeat and
keep them in in jail for months,but you can beat the hell out
of a man or a woman.
Domestic violence does not haveto be gender specific.
Yeah, and you might only get 30days for felony domestic
violence.
That's what happened withsomebody I knew 30 days 30 days

(18:37):
spread out over weekends for hisseventh felony domestic
violence.
Wow, and they said it's becauseyou didn't show up and advocate
for yourself.
No, it's because y'all didn'tdo your job.
Uh, but it's a gorgeous state.
Yeah, it has so many beautifulthings to offer.

Heather (18:54):
Yeah, um, I'm pumped, I'm I already told you I'm
definitely gonna come visit.
Uh, you know, I I already, asyou know, I have a lot of trips
already like set up this year.
But you know, going forward, uh, I want to go to the ohios and,
you know, chill for a week withyou know, catch up with friends
and and then maybe do anotherpodcast and then, you know, go

(19:18):
to my next destination and dothat, and so I'm glad that, even
though you're moving it now, Ihave like a another doorway in
ohio to like venture out more.
You know what I mean absolutely.

RJ (19:32):
And well, you know, thinking of you coming to visit or
thinking of me coming back, umis one of the highlights that
makes it, uh, not feel soterrible about going back,
because it does hurt leaving.
I wanted things to work outhere, but you know, life happens
.
I've got family.
I have a seven-year-oldgrandmother, we're going to be a
six-generation family prettysoon.

(19:53):
Yeah, that's so crazy, veryinsane, and my mother is between
70 and 80.
So I needed to get back.
It was time because, failinghealth, no help, they need me.

Heather (20:10):
Timing's everything.
Yeah, it's going to be good foreveryone.
You know what I mean.
Like who knows?
It brings people closertogether, you know sometimes,
but I wish I was gonna be ableto meet your mom alone.

RJ (20:23):
Oh gosh, yeah, that's right, you're leaving for your trip
tomorrow and she won't be hereuntil the day after.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
My mommy has to come rescue mebecause I have a dog and he
can't ride public transportation.
Uh, he's allowed to, but itscares him, loki, and I will not
let him be scared.

Heather (20:40):
I know, no, look he's a little sweetie he is.
He loves jj too.
Oh, he does.
They're, they're, they're bff,and I'm pretty good the other
day it looks like a tugboat nextto a barge.

RJ (20:50):
It's so funny, it is funny.

Heather (20:53):
So when we were going over and kind of doing these
notes the other night, does thismean anything to you?
Because we said it but I can'tremember what the context was.
But it says learned, notinherited.

RJ (21:09):
Let me look at it.
Maybe I'll remember Learned.
Learned not inherited.
It was about a behavior.
Uh oh, borderline personalitydisorder is a learned behavior.
It is not a geneticallyinheritable yes, mental disorder
.
Okay, that's what that is okaybecause, as you very well know,
I, I have borderline personalitydisorder and I know that you

(21:30):
know it comes from severeabandonment issues.
Yes, people are not born withthis and they are not
genetically predisposed.
But there is no geneticpredisposition for borderline.
People go often get it mixed upwith bipolar.
It could be because the acronymis the same bpd borderline
personality disorder is um I.

(21:53):
I think I said it best theother day when I said we can be
manipulative, but it doesn'tcome from a place of malice,
it's a, it's a self-defensemechanism from our extreme,
extreme fear of abandonment.
And that's what it all boilsdown to is fear of abandonment.
That that's why the number onebook ever written on BPD is

(22:13):
called I Hate you, don't LeaveMe.

Heather (22:16):
I haven't, I've yet to read it.

RJ (22:18):
It's old, but that title just blows my mind because it
sums it up better than anybodyelse could it does yeah.

Heather (22:37):
I'm we, uh, you didn't find out that you know probably
more the more extensive parts ofmy life until like today and
yesterday, more Over the lastfive, six days, yeah.

RJ (22:53):
Do you think, um, could you see, like the symptoms in me,
now that you know that, you knowI have it well.
See, um, borderlines are oftenmulti.
I mean severely misdiagnosed uh, just as simple ptsd or cptsd,
and it often goes overlooked foryears and years.
Uh, so, no, I didn't know untilyou told me I just assumed it
was part of your ptsd becauseyou, you were in the military,

(23:14):
you were at a second airborne,and I know you had to have gone
through some serious trauma atyour age.
In this, in this time in theworld, with what people in the
military are going through, Ican't even imagine.
Uh, I assumed it was justdepression and ptsd.
When you said borderline, youcould have knocked me over with
a feather.

Heather (23:33):
I was like me too yeah, it's a bond, um, it is well,
it's because something that's sohard to understand and it's not
super common and uh.
So when you do have that, youknow commonality, it helps
because it's like almost like oh, you do feel my pain, yes,
because from the outside, I feellike people have looked at me

(23:56):
or will look at me either way aslike emotional and as like oh,
but I've been like that.
I feel like forever, like Itake loss so horribly and it
feels worse than a loss, know,and, and even growing up
watching people go throughbreakups and they're just like
bounce back, you know, likenothing, and me I'm just like

(24:18):
crippled for the longest, andit's it helped to understand and
learn that.
You know it stems fromsomething, though.

RJ (24:29):
But it really does.
And uh, okay, I I just startedgetting more in depth with with
your personal story and I'm notgoing to tell your personal
business or but like the daythat we met I I just got a tiny
little hint of what you had beenthrough, but I I remember I
texted you that day.
We'd exchange numbers and Isaid I said I'm not trying to be

(24:52):
a weirdo, but you know, I feellike a super connection to you
and I think it's because youalways have a bond with anybody
you share something with, evenif it's something negative.
Uh, because it's.
Everybody wants empathy,everybody wants understanding,
everybody wants their pain to befelt and or for somebody to

(25:14):
just at least understand it andnot mock them or belittle them
or judge them for it yeah and Iabsolutely, absolutely, 100
understand some of what you'vebeen going through.

Heather (25:26):
Yeah, absolutely, and um, I'm glad that we were here
to to, uh, you know, help, helpeach other, you know, see past
the bad and see the good.
That's down the road, you know.
Um, it's been, it's been a verypositive atmosphere here the
last few days and and I'mexcited about it.

RJ (25:47):
Well, I really really appreciate you saying that,
because I've not felt very goodabout myself over the past few
months and the friendships thatI've made out here have really
lifted me up, especially theselast few weeks hanging out with
you and helping you put thehouse together.
I mean you know it didn't justgive me purpose put the house

(26:13):
together.
I mean you know it didn't justgive me purpose.
It I didn't feel like a rejectthat you know was hiding on the
margins because I'm too awkwardto talk to people.
Yeah, I don't know how else tosay it.

Heather (26:22):
I felt accepted yeah, no, uh, I don't know how else to
treat people.
I guess you know, but it's, Idon't know I else to treat
people.
I guess you know, but it's, Idon't know.
I watched my dad, like watchingmy dad, grow up.
He was just open arms toeveryone.

(26:43):
Like we always had a room atour place for anybody who needed
it.
Or you know, hey, can I park mycar here for six months?
Like we, my dad couldn't say noto things like that and uh, not
that he ever would or want to.
Like I, uh, I really enjoyhelping people and I feel like

(27:05):
it's with the podcast especially.
Um, if you, if I were to showyou some of the text messages
I've gotten from people thathave listened to it and said
that, you know, listen to thisperson's story has completely
changed their outlook.
Or, you know, said that they'rebetter because of it.

(27:26):
Or, you know, saved them even.

RJ (27:29):
I love that.
I was just thinking about that.
Um, you know, you, you asked meabout some, some of the things
I want, some michael and youalso.
You said that we were bothempaths and I said I didn't
think that I was.
I I wish that I was, but Idon't think.
I true, but if any experienceI've ever had, any negative
experience I've ever had anynegative experience I've ever
had, or anything that I canshare, can help one person, you

(27:54):
know I pretend like I don't careand I do close myself off and
numb myself to other people, butif I can truly help somebody
get through something, then youknow I'm not doing it to feel
good, but I just hope that'lljust make me happy.

Heather (28:11):
Yeah, it feels good and it will be reciprocated back.
I guarantee it because you dohave an important story to tell.
I believe You've been adomestic violence victim.
You don't like the wordsurvivor.

RJ (28:30):
I'm a domestic violence survivor and I'm also a multi-ra
survivor.
You don't like the listSurvivor.
I'm a domestic violencesurvivor and I'm also a rape
survivor, a multi-rape survivor.
I don't believe in the wordvictim, unless you got murdered.
Then you're a victim.
But I'm alive and I'm sittinghere, so I'm a survivor.

Heather (28:43):
Yes, sure.

RJ (28:44):
Yeah, some pretty severe incidences of domestic violence
over the years and some prettytraumatic, uh, sexual assault,
rape yeah, that's that didn'thappen until I was an adult.
Thank god it didn't happen inmy formative years.
Wow, I actually I didn't reallyeven think about that, or ask
either.

Heather (29:02):
But um, I want that when it's young, you know it, it
it's.

RJ (29:09):
It changes the course of life, the entire course of your
life.
I've known people who have, andI've heard stories.
I've been in therapy andsupport groups for it.
I couldn't even imagine if ithappened to me when I was a
child.
I will say one thing is this isgetting a little intimate here,

(29:35):
but like part of my own mentalillnesses or whatever you want
to call them, or disorders orwhatever words you want to use
is and this is a big part ofbeing on borderline.
I can't separate sex and love,um, and this is a big part of

(29:56):
being on borderline.
I can't separate sex and loveum.
I I can't, like, I can't, cheaton somebody.
I can only be with a person I'min love with.
Uh.
But when I was in my early 20s,I um got around a little bit
and I'll tell you that wasalmost as damaging to me as
actually being raped, because itwas basically like I was doing
it to myself.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, was that likea form of self-harm?

(30:19):
I believe so, because my firstaddictions before any drugs or
alcohol, my first addiction wassleep.
My second addiction was love,men, love, uh.
I'm one of those people that'sin love with love and I want it
to be perfect.
I want to be fair to, andthat's not how love actually

(30:39):
works.
At least, I don't know how itworks um, I I hope that you know
that I do too, but I, I'm, I'm45 and it's like I have learned
that, um, love, it can actuallybe a lot more beautiful than
what a fairy tale is.
Uh, real, true love when you,when you are completely selfless

(31:03):
and you only want to give ofyourself to the other person, is
so much more beautiful than anycrappy reading a storybook.

Heather (31:11):
It's true, so true yeah , we agree on that completely.
Um, you are a survivor, astrong one.
Um, domestic violence, uh, I'mnot gonna go go too much into
detail but I kind of had a crazychildhood of moving around and

(31:40):
staying in different shelters ofsorts and stuff and that left a
pretty gnarly impact.
It made one, I would say,mostly looking back now at the
time it's just all numbed outlike a robot just doing

(32:05):
clockwork, getting up.
Oh, this is my life.

RJ (32:08):
This isn't real, but it is my life, exactly, though you are
just following the motions likean automaton.
I mean, you just, you're justgoing through the motions of
life and I think, um, there's alot of different things we do
when we are in complete survivalmode, and that is one of them
is when you have to shut downevery feeling and you are

(32:30):
literally a robot going throughthe motions because you just
can't take any more trauma allat once, or bad shit's going to
happen, something's going togive.
Yeah, it's a scary place to be,terrifying.

Heather (32:46):
That's when people check out, that's when people
fall into these addiction paths.

RJ (32:55):
Dangerous behaviors, risky, risky things Self-destruction,
self-harm.

Heather (33:02):
Suicide.
I think it's 10% of people withBPD commit suicide or something
10?

RJ (33:10):
I thought it was more than that.
Is it more?
Now?
You're making me want to Googleit, you should Google it.

Heather (33:14):
Go for it.
Yeah, I will.
I want an accurate number forsure.

RJ (33:17):
I do too, because I think it's quite higher.

Heather (33:21):
That's horrible.
But yeah, I would Maybeprobably huh the misconception.
Yeah, we did that and I'm gladbecause it is a misconception,
because, um, dang and as Iexplain that on the outside, I
feel like people can be like, ohyeah, I'll just blame it on

(33:41):
that, on the BPD, you know whatI mean.
Like it's.

RJ (33:45):
On the outside they do.
Yeah, outside they do.
Bpd is one of the most poorlymisjudged.
And oh, what's the word I'mlooking for when other people
are judging you for having itand they're presuming things
about you that are notnecessarily your motivations,

(34:05):
they're not necessarily yourtruth?
I said we're born manipulators.
We're not doing it, um, like anarcissist for gain.
We're doing it because we'reterrified of what's going to
happen if we don't, and we thinkit's our only coping mechanism
because we haven't learned abetter way yeah, dang it, that's

(34:26):
.

Heather (34:26):
ain't that the truth?
Um, on a more happier notewe're going to go into You've
had a lot of incredible peoplein your life.
Can you name a couple that havemade an impact in your life?
I just wrote down wonderfulpeople you've met, but I know

(34:53):
you had a list of of a couplepeople and you have now you had
another night or two to kind ofthink about it.
Um, who, uh, can you tell meabout a couple people that come
to mind?

RJ (35:01):
I'm gonna say, first and foremost, my favorite person
that ever walked the earth, thedog personally known as my dad,
george, who unfortunately passedaway right before Christmas of
2021.
And I'm still not even close tocoming to terms with that God.
My dad was my best friend.

(35:21):
He had some serious problemsand I have never seen somebody
fight so hard to overcome theirown issues.
My dad.

Heather (35:33):
He's my hero.
Really.

RJ (35:35):
He's truly my hero.
He was also my best friend.
He called me his clone when Iwas little, because you know,
when I was a little skinny girl,I looked exactly like him.
So everybody called me LittleGeorge and I would get furious.
And you know what I freakingmiss hearing that, yeah, little
George and I would get furious.
And you know what I freakingmiss hearing that, yeah, little.

Heather (35:54):
George, I love it.
That's cute, I love that.
So can you tell?

RJ (35:59):
me more about George.
Okay, yeah, I know he lookslike Clint Eastwood.
Yeah, my dad is.
He was 5'11".
He is very, very small, boned.
Uh, he was also the kind ofperson, uh, okay, so he was
blind in one eye from a detachedretina.
Um, I'm not going to go intothe story, but he got pistol

(36:22):
whipped in one eye because heshot at somebody and the gun
misfired.
So they, they hunted him down aweek later and blinded him in
one eye.
What a rascal.
So he had this, this scary grayeye, and then he had this normal
brown eye that was sharp, as asa hawk's eye, yeah, and he had
this way of looking at you thatif you were family, you knew it

(36:45):
was just messing.
But if you, if you, it didn'tmatter.
If you had only known him, ifyou'd known him, finally, for
two years or something, you'realways wondering is this man
gonna kill me?
And you know, um, he, he teasedmy first husband, okay, uh, my
first husband was navy.
So you know the sgi lifeinsurance policy.
Well, uh, chris was talkingabout the sgi life insurance

(37:08):
policy on thanksgiving one yearand how, if anything happened to
him, I I'd get $250,000.
And my dad just slammed hisfist on the table and says
$250,000?
.
I'm not killing your fuckingass now.
He was joking.
But Chris got up and was scared.
People were scared of my daduntil they got to realize he was

(37:30):
the most generous giving manwhen he served up from his
severe alcoholism, he gave carsaway to people that had nothing
because he was a mechanic and abody man.
He found out in 2006, sorry, hefound out in 2016.
He had lung cancer and, um, hestill worked.

(37:56):
And when he couldn't workanymore, you know what he did?
He volunteered at the streckercancer center and he was
everybody's favorite volunteerand he told me it, other than
raising his daughters, it wasthe most rewarding thing he ever
did.
I always thought, oh, volunteerwork sucks.
I've done it.
You know.
I'm like you know, let's get itover with.
You know, feels like communityservice.

(38:18):
But my dad, he truly found thehumility to find inner peace
with that and I've learnedsomething from that too.
I've learned, you know.
I've learned that almosteverything my dad ever told me
was right.
Really, yeah, that's amazing.

Heather (38:34):
Did you listen to all of his advice growing up?

RJ (38:37):
I'm still trying to learn to follow all of his advice, but
if he ever said something to me,I knew he wasn't lying, I knew
he believed it was true and Iknew it probably was Didn't mean
I wanted to hear it at the time.
That's trust especially in my20s.
You know, when I was, uh, whenI was partying and and and, uh,
you know, having a lot of partyfavors and things, yeah, nobody

(39:00):
wants.
Nobody wants to hear shit fromtheir parents.
When you're, uh, 26 years oldand you're out with your buddies
, uh, you go on skiing orsomething yeah, I wouldn't have
time for that shit.
Mom and dad I know right, it'slike mom and dad are gonna be
there forever.

Heather (39:13):
I'll be fine yeah, um, speaking of cool adventures and
stuff, uh, you were on a show atone point in your life.
You want to uh talk about that.
I've got this topic.

RJ (39:26):
Okay, a lot of you may not remember this, but the
illusionist you can't call him amagician, he hates that.
The illusionist, criss Angel,the mind freak.
He only had three seasons, buthe is a Vegas act now.
He is as terrific, if not moreterrific than David Blaine.

(39:47):
I got to do two seasons on hisshow, not every episode or
anything, just a few episodes,yeah yeah.
But my sister, she got to doone episode.
She was married and I wasn't.
So I got to chase him around.
So, yeah, I got to be on CrissAngel Mind Freak seasons two and

(40:09):
three.
So, yeah, I got to be on CrissAngel Mind Freak seasons two and
three.
You can see me in the front rowon the far right in the episode
at the end of season two titledmy Secret Cabaret.
Yeah, and it was pretty, prettycool because there were after
parties and hanging out and hewas actually a really humble,

(40:30):
chill guy that remembered hisorigins really, yeah, cause he
he came across slightly arrogantat first on the show, but I
think it was because he wasnervous that he blew up so fast.

Heather (40:41):
oh, yeah, that's how.
That would be a lot.
Then he was like way big, likemy dad was like obsessed with
him.

RJ (40:51):
Everybody was obsessed, male or female, everybody was
obsessed with him.
Yeah, I mean, not gonna lie, hewas a damn good-looking man.

Heather (40:59):
He was a pretty-looking dude.
He still is.
He's not bad.
Yeah, that was a fun time,though, huh.

RJ (41:07):
Yeah, I felt so excited and so important and I mean it was.
It was about I think it was anamc show or I can't remember
what channel it was on.
It was before.
Everybody was streamingeverything.
Yeah, yeah, um and.
But it was like whatever nightit was on wednesday night or
whatever everybody was tuning inand and I was so excited.

(41:30):
I felt like I was a part ofsomething huge and I wasn't
looking to get a break andbecome an actor, nothing like
that.
I was just thrilled to get tobe a part of something that
unique and cool for a smallperiod of time.
Yeah, no, that's super cool.

Heather (41:47):
Not a lot of people can say that I've done something
like that.

RJ (41:50):
That was really neat.
I did meet Matthew matthewmcconaughey once you what?
Did you?
Uh, yeah, I was teaching scubaat marshall university and
matthew mcconaughey was filming.
We are marshall.
He was outside um partaking uhof the smoke, nice, and I was
outside to smoke a cigaretteyeah and I got.

(42:11):
I I happened to just notice hewas standing down a little bit
from me.
I couldn't quite tell him, andthen I realized who he was and I
was like, hey, man.
And he's like, hey, what's up?
And then, you know, all of hispeople like came out of this,
these double doors, yeah, wegotta go, we gotta schedule, and
he's gone, so I didn't even gettime to get a picture and

(42:32):
autograph.
But that was pretty cool.
He's a cool dude.
Yeah, getting to meet, uh, thelincoln lawyer was pretty
awesome.
Those are my celebrity storiesright there.

Heather (42:40):
I love that.
Those are some good ones.
Um so um, we're gonna beskipping around, but it's all
really good stuff and I thinkit's all going to end in the way
it needs to end, but under theunderstanding BPD.
And then it points to self-harm.

(43:01):
Self-harm that's a vicious one.

RJ (43:11):
It's horrific and it's also incredibly more common in people
with BPD than it is in mostother.
I don't want to keep sayingdisorder.
I don't like the word disorders.
I actually prefer damage thandisorders.
I don't like illness.
I don't like mental illness.
I should say I don't likeillness.
Uh, I don't like mental illness.

(43:31):
I should say I don't likedisorder.
Um, so I'm just gonna call themdiagnoses, unless, unless I'm
referring to myself, I'll callmyself crazy all day long.
I know I like diagnoses, yeah,diagnoses yeah, I like that,
because nobody, no matter whatthey have, should be stigmatized
any more than if they haddiabetes or cancer or lupus or

(43:54):
anything.
I didn't choose to have this,can you?

Heather (43:59):
explain, because it's not hereditary, correct?

RJ (44:03):
No, borderline is not.
I mean, you can have a slightpredisposition for it, but it is
more a learned and it does comefrom your.
You generally don't get ituntil your mid to late 20s.
Some people get it a littleearlier in the 20s and some
people even get it in theirearly 30s.
But this one's a really trickyone because not only, as I said,

(44:27):
it's very, very hard todiagnose and it's often
misdiagnosed.
There's no medication for it.
It's not depression, it's notpost-traumatic stress disorder,
it's not anxiety.
It makes you feel those things,but that's not what it.
There's no pill that helps it um, so yeah, this one gets pushed

(44:49):
to the side.
And no, it is generally alearned behavior from and when I
say learned behavior, I don'tmean you know, I went out and
like taught myself to, you know,be like that.
I mean like abandonment isusually stemming from childhood,
almost always stemming fromchildhood, that do not manifest
until the 20s.

(45:09):
I just got the.

Heather (45:12):
DBT book.
You know a little bit aboutthat, don't you?

RJ (45:17):
I did a few sessions of dialectical behavior therapy.
I'm also an agoraphobic.
I have a really hard timemaking myself go to places where
I'm not comfortable.
I will eventually.
It's not like television.
Agoraphobics are not like oh,I'm terrified to step my foot
out the door, yeah, yeah.
It's more like you don't wantpeople showing up unannounced

(45:38):
and uh, the places you want togo, okay, the wide range keeps
shrinking and shrinking untilsuddenly you just want to go to
the dollar store across thestreet and that's it.
That's it, huh.

Heather (45:48):
Yeah, I can be a bit of a recluse, absolutely and
that's.
But I'm like I know that,though you know, like I accept
that I need to take breaks and Ineed to conserve my energy
because, yeah, if you give it,you it can, it can take you down

(46:13):
.
Um, if you give too much,absolutely um, six thousand
dollar tickets, tell me aboutthat.
What the six thousand yeah,well, those are.
That's got to be to chris angel, your sister oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah, what, oh gosh.

RJ (46:29):
The first, the first episode we were on.
All right.
My sister was married to thetop chiropractor in the united
states.
Now all I'm going to say abouthim is he no longer has a
medical license, but not becausehe did anything bad yeah he
kept suing the insurancecompanies that would not pay and

(46:52):
he kept winning.
So finally they go to him andhe's about 10 million dollars
into his career.
Yeah, at the time him and mysister split up.
I think he was at like the twomillion dollar mark, yeah, and
when they got together she wasselling furniture, making more
money than him on her commission, just killing it yeah but his
practice blew up and um, so hekept taking these insurance

(47:13):
companies as court and finallyuh, a big, you know conglomerate
of insurance companies, said wewill give you 30 million
dollars if you will surrenderyour chiropractic license and
sign an affidavit swearing youwill not practice any type of
medicine, including veterinary,in the united states ever again.
So you know what he does now.

(47:34):
With this 40 million that hesits on, he went to uh columbia
law school and now he sues theinsurance companies for other
chiropractors because these areinsurance companies that are
ripping people off.
Oh yeah, he's not.
He's not scamming, he's, he'sprotecting people that are not
getting their stuff.
Oh yeah, he's not scamming,he's protecting people that are
not getting their stuff paid for.
Yeah, holy shit so anyway, sorrythat was a little off topic,

(47:58):
but it's just funny.

Heather (48:00):
He's like a regular day robber.

RJ (48:03):
She could basically, you know, throw $100 bills out a car
window all day long and notmiss them.
So the first time I I was onmyspace if anybody remembers
that crap, top 12 had us all uh,had us all uh, do an html code
like some geniuses coding somenew music coding like a mad

(48:27):
woman and I saw that Criss Angelwas going to be in Hollywood
with an open casting call tofilm one of his episodes, maybe
two, and I told her about it andshe told her husband and he
said I don't give a shit whaty'all do.
And he's like here you go.

(48:48):
And she took her Amex BlackLimitlessless credit card and it
cost us six thousand dollarsround trip to get out there but
that's because she flew us redflight first class columbus
straight into la and then back.
But yeah, it was a ridiculousamount of money.
That's not counting what shepaid for the clothes that we had
to wear to get into the black.

Heather (49:07):
I know, tell me about you had some really fire dress
oh shit, no, mine was.

RJ (49:12):
I'm the only one like it in the world.
It was handmade.
Uh, it was from a couture shopand it was a uh, it was a beige
sheath with a beige like flapperspider web over it with an
uneven hemline.
I love it and then my sister hadthis fuchsia ruched skimpy

(49:32):
halter neck thing.
It was beautiful, you know, butwe went to Nordstrom just to
get our clothes to be on thetelevision show, which were
casual clothes, and then ourformal wear to get into the
after party, and you also had tobe 21.
So most of the people whoshowed up couldn't even go.
They either weren't 21 or theydidn't have formal wear.
So here comes, you know richbitch and her little sister and.

(49:56):
I'm Not that my sister's a bitch, but rich person.
Yeah, and we had literally justdropped.
Like I know, the clothes wewore in one night were worth
over $1,800, but I can't evenremember what she spent the day.
We went shopping and we alsowent to Rodeo Drive.

(50:17):
That's where I got the jeansand the top in the picture that
I showed you.

Heather (50:23):
Yeah, no, you were telling me about the Criss Angel
thing and I was like I've gotto see a picture, I'm going to
forward it to you.
Yeah, you do.
And you were like I was prettyhot.
All right, let me see what yougot.
And I was like look at you,look at your sister, I love it,
though I love it so much.
That was one of my favoritestories I've heard in a long

(50:44):
time.
Really, yeah, a long time.

RJ (50:46):
Really yeah, no, absolutely it was one of the most fun times
of my life.
I have to say that, Absolutely.

Heather (50:53):
It was exciting.

RJ (50:54):
It was exciting to.
I guess I got to feel like acelebrity for a minute, with my
sister's husband's money flyingfirst class for the first time
and the last time, non-stop fromColumbus to LA to la and then,
um, getting to go to all theseexpensive places where a meal

(51:15):
cost a thousand dollars.
You know it was.
It was just ridiculous and I Inever got to.
Well, okay, she's taken me onseveral trips, but that was the
most expensive.
I never got to live like thatagain, but it felt special,
especially with the celebrities,you know.

Heather (51:33):
Yeah, no, that sounds like so much fun.
Yeah, that was great.
So I'm going to pee and thenwe're going to pause it, but I
have the perfect where to pickup, right after Rice.

RJ (51:44):
Krispie, you got it.
Thank you so much.
You got it Probably not sincemy dad died and I'm not
comparing you to my dad.
First of all, you don't looklike a craggy ass Clint Eastwood
with a scary blind eye.

Heather (51:57):
Yeah, that would be kind of scary.
Cool though.

RJ (51:59):
I'll show you a picture of my dad when I get back.

Heather (52:00):
Yeah, please do.

RJ (52:02):
Um, but no, like as far as a person who didn't just care
about me but truly understood me.
Now, nobody will everunderstand me as well as my dad
did, right?
Yeah, because I was his clone,as he told everybody, mm-hmm,
but like it's been since beforehe died, since I was able to

(52:24):
talk to anybody on this leveland you don't realize how much
you need it and how much youmiss it.
So it's, it's been missing andyou find it again you know what?

Heather (52:33):
that there's like three or four people that did the
podcast that said that exactlysomething very similar to that
that they weren't.
They weren't expecting it tothat.
They missed that.
They needed that interaction.

RJ (52:48):
You don't know until.
Until you get it back, you haveno idea it's missing.
You go dead inside.
You can't feel anymore.

Heather (52:55):
You go, walk around.
Nobody is trying to communicateand connect on the human level
like they used to.

RJ (53:03):
And you started to say something that made me want to
touch on.
When we were starting to talkabout mental illness and how
it's, I wrote it down.
You said uh, the war that.
What'd you say?
The war that we're losing, orsomething along those lines.
Right, um, the battle thatwe've been losing, or something
like that win a fight that we'vebeen losing.

Heather (53:26):
Win a fight that we've been losing.

RJ (53:28):
Yeah, I wrote down and uh oh no, that's standing woman.
Your name's going by, it'sgoing in my quotes, but you know
the things that you helped mewith this week.
I would have been sobered uplike I'd be laying sick over
there.
I'm glad I I know I hate it,it's the worst, huh.

(53:49):
It is the worst.
It's like every time.
I'm like when the fuck did I dothis to myself?
I hate it.
Have you ever been hospitalizedfor alcohol?
Like withdrawals, Not forwithdrawals?
No, I have twice.
Really, yeah, the first timethey kept me from having to do
it.
I'm done Trust.
Really, yeah, the first timethey kept me from having to do
it, I'm done.
Trust me, can your ears clearokay, like when you're on a

(54:12):
plane or something?

Heather (54:14):
Do mine.

RJ (54:14):
Yes, yeah yeah.
Okay.
So if you were to dive into aswimming pool that had a 10-foot
deep end, would they pop on theway down to the bottom?
I don't think so.

Heather (54:26):
I mean, if you needed them to.
Oh, if I needed them to.

RJ (54:27):
Yeah, you can either yawn your jaw or you can do what's
called the Valsalva Maneuver,which is basically like that
right there, where you hold yournose, pop your ears, but with a
dive mask on you don't have tohold your nose.
Thank you, all right, if youcan do that, you can dive I can
do that If you can't clear yourears, you can't.
Will could not clear his ears.
So if you can't clear your earsat eight feet, you can't scuba

(54:51):
dive I mean, I guess I'd have totry, but I feel like I'd be all
right.
I saw a paraplegic, an amputee,no legs.
They were able to do it.
They made him hand fins Handfins that's tight and an

(55:12):
automatic regulator.
But he had his thumbs out ofthe fence so he could still
check his gauges and shit.
And he dove with his hands andthere was a gun that had a
golden retriever that he made aspecialty complete full head
thing for and the dog wentdiving with him voluntarily.
He didn't force it, the dog wasalways jumping in after him, so
he made him a diving helmetreally yeah it's like one of the

(55:34):
big bubble helmets.
It looks like a big glassfishbowl.
But yeah, he did.
I love it.
I did too.
Now you just have confidenceabout a lot of other things, but
that's the only thing I'm stilllike yeah, I ain't taking my
accomplishments away.
I still know how to do thisshit.
I'm still bomb as fuck at it.

(55:54):
I know how to take the nitrogenout of air or add extra oxygen
into it, just to up thepercentage of the oxygen.
There's two ways to do it.
I told you guys today DNA-Xdenitrogenated air, or E, eanx
enriched air nitrogen, which isadding the oxygen in.
I did both.
I used what was called cascadesystem Cascade system.

(56:18):
Yeah, that's why I mixed up theplumbing term for whatever the
hell we made in Helenax, becauseI was thinking of my air tanks
on the side of the dive building.
Yeah, I could tell that you'revery passionate about it.

(56:39):
I think I'm more passionateabout that than I am about love.
You think so, maybe I don'tknow.

Heather (56:43):
Love is everything, though.

RJ (56:45):
Love makes the world go round, but I don't think it
conquers all, because if loveconquered all, then I would rule
the world and so would you,because I know how people like
us love.

Heather (56:59):
With everything and all that you have.
Like I said, we'd burn theworld down if we had to.

RJ (57:04):
And here's what I've always said, and none of them have ever
believed this.
I said look, if I love you, I'mgoing to be true to you.
I don't care if we have to eatout of a dumpster, I'm going to
stay with you.
I love it.

Heather (57:18):
I know that's how it should be and it's not always
reciprocated on both sides.

RJ (57:25):
Well, like I said, it's usually very imbalanced, unless
you have a very imbalanced,unless you have a very healthy
relationship.
It's usually heavily imbalancedwith the person who loves the
most versus the person who lovesthe least, or the person who
has the least morals versus theperson who has more of them.

Heather (57:40):
Very true.
Um, that's very true.
Um, uh, so, uh, we, we wentover a lot of things but, um,
this is some cool.
Um, you know, I've got mine interms of the addiction and stuff
, um, and, and then actually itwas mom was pumped that you like

(58:03):
on the ketamine thing.
Uh, do you, do you want to umexplain that?

RJ (58:07):
I, I'm very interested, like ket very interested, like
ketamine therapy ketaminetherapy works I don't know all
the science behind.
I don't know how well I, howyou how is it administered to
you?
okay.
So, um, there's spravato andthere's esketamine.
Esketamine is iv infusion,spravato is the nasal spray.
And then there those pills youget in mail uh, which you can

(58:29):
get from you.
Get on joyous ketamine rightnow, probably get them.
I don't think you can get themshipped to montana, but like 200
a month now.
It used to be like 600 a week,uh, yeah, um, I can go over uh
50 to 80 yeah, I want to look upthose dosage numbers and I
never pulled up our percentages.

(58:50):
Oh, that's right.

Heather (58:52):
I typed it in.

RJ (58:52):
I just didn't read what came up suicide statistics on people
with borderline personalitydisorder, usa.
Well, because it's differentcountry to country depending on
your medical care system.
Research, oh shit, I don't evenwant to read this to you.

(59:13):
What is it?
Okay, you were right about 10,completed 75.
Try no way.
The suicide rate is higher thanany other psychiatric disorder
in the entire general population.
That's so crazy, jesus.
I didn't realize it.
I never knew that.

Heather (59:33):
Yeah me neither.

RJ (59:34):
Damn, I'm getting off of Google.
Next time I know I'll be liketrying to figure out if I have
like fucking kidney disease orsome shit.
Never go to WebMD, oh.

Heather (59:46):
I don't.

RJ (59:51):
I'm a hypochondriac by nature because I do have a lot
of medical problems.
My mom thinks I'm so unhealthyI'm gonna drop dead anytime soon
, but I'm actually prettyhealthy.
Yeah, you are, um, consideringwhat I've done to my body, I'm
extremely healthy.
Really fast, because it'sthere's not much I can say about
.
I can tell people you know.
Just research it, get on redditwhat is it?

Heather (01:00:08):
what is it used for?
What did you use it for?

RJ (01:00:11):
I used it for depression because it's for major
depressive disorder andtreatment resistant depression,
and it's also now used inpsychiatric facilities for
people with severe suicidalideation which, as you know, is
not the actual attempts.
But it's sitting there uhsaying you're going to kill
yourself, planning how you'regoing to do it, making feeble

(01:00:32):
attempts that we're never goingto hurt you, whatever, but it
stops it.

Heather (01:00:37):
Yep, yep, yep, yep.

RJ (01:00:38):
Now with the severely suicidal, not so much.
I okay.
The time I really tried to killmyself.
I had just been on Xanax forlike a year and it was right
after I got raped I was stilldown in dive school.
I took all 90 of my xanax and Idrank an entire fifth of cuervo

(01:01:02):
and I jumped off of a pier intothe ocean and a fucking dude
yanked me out and I woke up.
Baker acted against my will inthe guidance clinic of the
middle case for evaluation, Idon't know.
And I remember holding down mypanic attack because I was
afraid they were going to thinkI was just having a panic attack

(01:01:22):
.
I didn't want to kill myself.
Like two days later, well, Idid, but I I wasn't going on.
Yeah, and I remember holdingthis panic attack inside because
I was afraid the psychiatristwould think I was insane and
lock me up because panic attack,your mind isn't right.
I know I am the reason Istarted on that Central nervous
system's all crazy.

Heather (01:01:41):
Huh, central nervous system's all crazy.

RJ (01:01:44):
Yeah, especially after that much alcohol and pills.
Oh yeah, that was my onlyactual, serious attempt, besides
the slice of my wrists.

Heather (01:01:53):
Yeah, I never got.
But the same thing though thedrinking, the pills and the.

RJ (01:01:58):
I did drive a car into the river.
You did, yeah, but I drove itdown a boat ramp and it was kind
of a 50-50 reason.
And it was kind of a 50-50reason, joe, the scuba
instructor that first taught mehow to dive.
Before I went to dive schoolthey gave me my regular standard

(01:02:20):
advanced diver license.
I had this fucking Mustang andI wanted to leave for Hall's
dive school but I had thesefucking $450 a month payments.
You can't go off to schoolwithout a job and it didn't
occur to me just take out extraloan money for the next six
months.
And I'm like Joe, this carneeds to be fucking totaled.

(01:02:42):
And we planned it out to whereI was going to accidentally go
off of the road and drive intothe river and they make these
little oxygens.
You see them up at the gasstation.
But they're not the same things.
They actually have a full-onregulator on them and they're
for an emergency ascent.
They only have two, two airs inthem, two breeds, but anyway,

(01:03:04):
we stashed one in my fucking car, but I was still too scared to
do it.
And then I broke up with myboyfriend.
I dumped him actually, but ithurt and I decided okay, I'm
going to do it tonight, and if Idie, great.
And if I live, great, yeah,50-50.
Anyway, the car got totaled.

(01:03:25):
Well, it could have beentotaled anyway.
I've wrecked so many of my dadsLike, heather, do you want your
car totaled out or do you wantit repaired?
He's like, because I can smashsome shit on it.
If you want it totaled out.
You want it totaled out?
Oh yeah, if I didn't want to beupside down on the way I'm down
, it would just beat the shitout of the car for me.
That's.
He's a real good dad.

(01:03:46):
I like that.
That was the best.
I committed insurance fraud.
That's awesome.
One time, one time, well, I hadComprehensive and Jay, the one
that I did LSD with.
He flipped out on me because Iscreamed at him for leaving 20
hits of acid in my ashtray whenI just had my car in my dad's
shop.
I'm like, if my dad would.
I'm like like, don't youfucking leave your drugs in my

(01:04:08):
car, you stupid drunk son of abitch.
You know, because I didn't dodrugs, I hadn't even done any
acid with him yet and he cameout.
I told him I wasn't going todrive him to college.
He couldn't drive it to collegeanymore.
He could fuck off, he couldwalk everywhere.
He came out and he flipped outand hammered the shit out of my
car.
So I called the police and Icalled the insurance agent and I

(01:04:28):
got paid like sixteen hundreddollars.
But my dad owned the body shopand he fixed it for like 250 so
I got to keep the rest.
So, fast forward six months I'mhanging out with lori that we
were both dating, him and I I'mwe're reversing on the driveway,
I'm in'm in a bad mood and Islam right into the front end of

(01:04:50):
my dad's fucking El Camino,which didn't hurt the El Camino
any, but it smashed up the backend of my car and I got out and
I beat the shit out of my car.
I was so fucking mad and Idropped Lori off and I drove
over to Parkersburg to a TexasHold'em game that my friends
were having and after about sixhours I came out I said, oh my

(01:05:12):
God, jay stuck me, he's trashedmy car again.
Look, it's the same damage andeverything.
And I called the police not toget him in trouble.
I couldn't prove he didanything so they didn't go after
him.
But all the state agents werelike this damage is identical to
the last damage.
I said the fucking guy's crazy.
And they wrote me a fucking$1,400 check and my engine blew

(01:05:33):
up and my dad got me a newengine for $300 on top of fixing
the damn damage.
And that's like one of theworst, like dirtiest things.

Heather (01:05:41):
I've ever done.
I mean that's some fraud, butlike.

RJ (01:05:46):
At least I didn't like get hemlocked up.

Heather (01:05:50):
It's smart, though it's a smart way to.

RJ (01:05:51):
If you're comprehensive on your fucking car.
That's a good way to Well,because if you do actually hit a
deer or if a tree limb falls onit, comprehensive covers that
shit and you get more moneyusually than what any shop will
charge.
You Love that.
Back in the day it used to be,you had to have two estimates
before they would write yourcheck.
Now they do the estimatesthemselves.
They write what the average isand you take it where you want

(01:06:14):
to go.
So if you can find a cut rateguy or whatever, you keep the
change.
And it's fucking smart.
Though, if you need some fastcash Right Quicker than student
learning you don't have to paythat shit back.
I don't have to pay it back.

Heather (01:06:28):
I'm going to go with some questions, okay, yeah keep
me on the topic here.
What is your biggest fear?

RJ (01:06:43):
Okay, I don't know if it's not the act of dying, but but
after death, what, what, whatmight come after or what might
not, or if it's living a lifethat feels completely devoid of
love.
But I would say that's a 50 50time.

(01:07:03):
Scared of never seeing thepeople I love again ever.
Them not existing is probablymy number one.
But right after that, the ideaof living a life without love in
it it sounds worthless to me.
Yeah, those two go hand in hand.
It's all about love, it's aboutnot wanting to.
If my dad really doesn't exist,then you know when I go, I

(01:07:27):
don't want to fucking existeither.
Doesn't exist, then you knowwhen I go I don't want to
fucking exist either.
Like, the concept of heaven andhell always cracked me up
because I'm like if everybody inheaven's happy, do they are?
Are they brainwashed so thatthey don't remember their
relatives that went to hell?
Because how could you be happyin heaven if you're like, hey,
my, my brother's in hell, or ormy lover's in hell or my
mother's in hell, you couldn'tbe.

(01:07:48):
Heaven and hell are fuckingridiculous.
Yes, they are, they arechristian heaven.
And how traditional heaven andhow they're fucking absurd.
Very much so, obviously umketamine, which I'm glad you
brought that up, and PoetryPoetry yes, your mom she

(01:08:13):
recommended Poetry and Art.
I'm not going to talk aboutdrawings, though you can't see
them on the radio.

Heather (01:08:21):
I read some stuff and you read some stuff to me today
and you're very talented andit's cool how far it goes back,
like you get to read like howyou're feeling at that time and
like where you're at now andthere's all my copyrighted too.

RJ (01:08:38):
I only draw the C around it, but they are actually
copyrighted.
Are you gonna, you should,publish.
I'm going to.
I'm going to follow in John'slegacy and I'm going to you
should.
I'm going to follow in John'slegacy and I'm going to write
pages of life, volume two.
There you go In his memory.
I didn't like his poetry asmuch as I like mine, and I know

(01:08:59):
that's an arrogant thing to say.
I helped him with some of his,he helped me with some of mine.
I thought his was too romanticand sappy.
I know mine's romantic andmorbid.
Romantic and sappy.
I know mine's romantic andmorbid I like the darkness,
though, too, I love the darknessof poetry.
That's what I love about poetryis the darkness in most of it,
because the best poetry is justriddled with pain, emotion and

(01:09:21):
pain.
I meant to ask you this morningif you wrote poetry.
Actually, I assumed that youprobably wrote.

Heather (01:09:31):
I think we talked a little bit about writing in
general and that I just kind ofgot into writing the last two or
so years, like well, that was afew hours ago.
I meant like, or when I firstgot here this, I just, I just
assumed you did I, uh, I knowhow healthy like that's me, in a
nutshell, like I know how goodsomething can be for me and I

(01:09:53):
know it's not a hard thing forme to even learn, or it's just
like there's this weirddisconnect where my brain just
just like keeps away from it orsomething, I don't know.
It's, it's weird, I don't knowwhat's wrong.

RJ (01:10:06):
Do you know what automatic writing is?
It's a spirituality, it's asummoning the dead thing, okay.
Okay, you would get aplanchette with a pencil hole in
it and you'd stick it in theplanchette, you'd put your hands
on it.
Or you do this you take yourpaper and your pen, you can just

(01:10:27):
start drawing loops and you letyour mind just go and if
there's writing on it, somethingwrote through you.
A lot of people think it'scommunicating with the dead.
Also, you can leave a pen andpaper by your bed when you sleep
and you might do it while yousleep.
But the thing about poetry andautomatic writing is it's the

(01:10:49):
disconnect from mind to hand,where you're not sitting there
thinking what word do I want touse.
It's getting yourself into thehabit, even if automatic writing
is total crock.
It's getting yourself into thehabit being able to just
free-form write quickly.
And if you can do that, thenyou can start really pouring
your emotions out through yourpen.

(01:11:10):
I feel like, because if youcan't, if you can't think of the
words right fast enough, youcan't pour your emotion through
them.

Heather (01:11:17):
I feel like it's more like my pen is, oh my god, well,
it's being recorded no matterwhat anyways.
But now this one thing I'velearned in my life is like
putting myself in differentshoes, like I got.
You know much better at thatnowadays.

RJ (01:11:35):
But that's good, because that's part of empathy.
I mean, it's not the same thingas being an empath, but that's
what empathy is is puttingyourself in somebody else's
situation and like visualizing,hey, what's it feel like to be
this person?
That is the definition ofempathy.
We use the word empath and alot of people think that's

(01:11:56):
woo-woo crap.
But I know it's real.
But empathy, that's real.
Empathy is the act ofvisualizing yourself as someone
else so that you can understandthem, and that's the literal
definition of it.
Well, if I can tell you, I wasa hell of a lot smarter, uh, 37

(01:12:21):
years ago.
Uh, that was one of the thingsI wrote for you.
What was that?
You know what that's?
Yeah, let's hit the.
Let's start with the ketamineand the metaphysics and let's
end with the poetry, Okay, okay,a damaged or traumatized person

(01:12:44):
is already someone who doubtsthemselves, so it is easy to
manipulate them or plant doubtsin their hearts.
Yep, and it's very easy tosteer a person like that.
A traumatized person cannotbecome better until they work
through the trauma, just like,uh, that hair loss, intelligent

(01:13:04):
effluvium, yeah until I got ridof the stressor.
My hair didn't grow back about60 percent.
Yeah, I did, and I've always hadhair I ponytail this fucking
big around and hair I used to beable to sit on yeah uh, and the
reason it's all chopped off nowis because it was still so thin
where we're falling out, andthis is the only part that's

(01:13:25):
grown back so far.
It's right as shit.
I mean it trimmed up because Icut it with a fucking knife when
I was drunk.
I took my skinning knife and Ijust went and I took a picture
of a ponytail this long and sentit to Tom because he said don't
ever cut off your hair.
There you go.
I said here you go, keep it.
Keep it.

(01:13:46):
Now.
I told you I'm a bitch when I'mdrunk.

Heather (01:13:50):
Well, that'll happen on those bigger jobs, okay.

RJ (01:13:57):
I still never got an answer out of fucking runnings as to
whether they have free standing.

Heather (01:14:03):
No stop Can you invite me for that tomorrow.
I got an Amazon on that.
That's what I'm going to do.
Okay, I'll put it on the listand thank you for also keeping
track of all this stuff.

RJ (01:14:13):
I tried to, but, jesus, I'm forgetful too we're a good team
though.
I think so.
I mean, we can get distractedwith our musings.
But I like that alright, me toospirituality.

Heather (01:14:26):
Where are you with that ?
I like that, me too.
Spirituality where are you atthat?
What is are you?
Have you gone on a spiritualjourney?
Are you on a spiritual path?
What is your?
What do you feel like I?

RJ (01:14:46):
I did the thing where I went to the dressing room and tried
on all the clothes.
I've tried every where I wentto the dressing room and tried
on all the clothes.
I've tried every religion.
I have been a Buddhist, I'vebeen a Taoist, I have been Hindu
, I have been Catholic.
Of course, I lied to the priestthat I'd actually ever, you
know, learned my catechism anddone my communion and everything

(01:15:07):
.
I just started showing up andtaking it, but, uh, I tried to
be.
I uh was in a horrifying church,a cult church actually, as a
child, not a severe call it, notlike what you're thinking um,
but it was called the mariettabible center and nobody will go

(01:15:27):
there now because they are apretty bad cult now.
I remember as a kid, instead ofin what we called Big Church, I
sat in Sunday school and Iremember the Sunday school lady
teacher standing up fronttelling us about one of the
people that came to church, howthey died of a brain aneurysm.

(01:15:48):
She described in very graphicdetail what a brain aneurysm was
, and every time I got aheadache or a pain in my head, I
was convinced the blood vesselin my head was going to blow up
and kill me.
But, as I told you and Ihaven't said this I have been an
avid reader since the age ofthree.

(01:16:09):
You were.

Heather (01:16:11):
Uh, you were a child genius, weren't you?

RJ (01:16:14):
uh, yeah, I, I was a child prodigy um you were in mensa I
was in the american mensasociety, not the european mensa
society, but the american mensasociety.
But before we move on to that,I was reading reader's digest at
age six.
Actually I was reading itbefore that, but I was six years
old when I read.
Uh, the big bang was still atheory.

(01:16:36):
And I was six years old when Iread it and the article was
titled there is no god and allit did was explain the science
behind the big bang theory.
And I remember feeling thatpure terror of chill that runs
through every bone in your body,because I had grown up reading
my little book of bible storiesand stuff and convinced god was

(01:16:58):
real.
And then I'm like here'ssuddenly a reputable uh public.
I didn't realize it was anopinion piece because I was six,
you know, I only could read thewords and understand them.
I couldn't understand theintent behind them.
That set you up I became asix-year-old atheist, so I went
to this horrible church, but youknow why I went?

(01:17:20):
Yeah, because they had afreaking church bus that would
pick kids up, and it was a wayfor my mom to get rid of her two
bratty, freaking daughters forfour hours every Sunday.
She didn't make us stay going,though, so spirituality, one
size does not fit all.

(01:17:41):
I am always searching foranswers.
I will never stop searching foranswers, answers, and I don't
think any intelligent person can, until we do get to the other
side.
I, I, I, I would say I pray togod, I, I pray that there is
something after death.

(01:18:02):
I believe that that would bethe cruelest joke of anything in
the world for consciousness andself-awareness and love and all
the wonderful things in life,to stop existing, to just end
there, yeah, and that to me,that's unfathomable.
So I went into therapy for thatwhen I was eight, and that's

(01:18:24):
when they found out I was agenius not to toot my own horn.

Heather (01:18:28):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, They'd be like hmm, yeah, not a
lot of kids that age arequestioning such topics
existential topics.

RJ (01:18:37):
It wasn't just that, it was.
I remember my psychiatristlooked at me really funny one
day after a session because shedidn't use words like id, ego or
superego.
She was a child psychiatrist.
She was 90 an hour back in theearly 80s, so she was high end.
Uh, her name was anna prince.
Uh, may she rest in peace.

(01:18:59):
But, um, she had explained to methat there's a consciousness
and a subconsciousness.
That's all she explained and II understood the concept and I
drew a picture and it was threelevels of the brain and I said,
no, I think there's aconsciousness, a
subconsciousness and a subsubconsciousness.
And I described the id, the egoand the superego without any

(01:19:23):
education.
And she after that had me IQtested.
I IQ tested well over 150.
And then I was given my firstSATs at age 8 at Marietta

(01:19:46):
College in the ExtremelyTalented and Gifted program and
because I passed two of theaccepted standardized tests for
the American Mensa Society andwe paid our dues, I was in it
for several years.
I know my IQ is probably halfwhat it was then, but I have to
say growing up being able to sitthrough class painting my face

(01:20:11):
or dumping my desk out on thefloor and not paying attention,
but getting a perfect score onevery test.
Every time.
There was something that feltso good about being the fuck-up
kid that had perfect test scores.

Heather (01:20:25):
Yeah, it feels good to not be that stereotype or
whatever, or to be what youdon't think it is.

RJ (01:20:34):
I was so dissed by so many teachers for my behavioral
problems because I think Iprobably had childhood ADD, but
they didn't have Ritalin oranything back then.

Heather (01:20:45):
Whatever?
They're saying you're stillcrushing your test scores.

RJ (01:20:47):
So I loved validating myself and proving the mean teachers.
I had some wonderful teacherstoo.
I remember a lot of mine.
I had some terrific ones, but Ihad a lot of mean ones, and I
loved proving them wrong everyFriday on test day.
They watched me like under amicroscope and they couldn't put

(01:21:11):
a test in front of me that Icouldn't put a perfect score on,
because I damn near aced theSATs when I was eight.
I love that I could ace themnow, shit you still got all
those gifts inside of you.

Heather (01:21:27):
Now you just gotta bring those gifts inside you now
.
So like you just gotta bringthem back out.

RJ (01:21:31):
You know, I think I'm less concerned about what my
intelligence is and moreconcerned about what my humanity
is.
I think that's a much moreimportant thing, absolutely.
I'm not trying to validatemyself anymore, because I don't
need to.
Yeah, yeah.

Heather (01:21:48):
I mean I'm just thankful that I'm not trying to
validate myself anymore becauseI don't need to.
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm justthankful that I'm around to get
some of your wisdom that you areso full of.
You know what I mean, so that'sgood.
I appreciate and even just thatattitude towards it like, yeah,
humanity is much more importantthan I.

RJ (01:22:09):
I think, um, caring about another person, of being a human
being, or or expressing empathy, or at least just sympathy, uh,
or at least just just mercy andkindness.
And I know I I sound like I'mthumping a bible here or
something, but I'm not.
We were not put on this earthto destroy each other.

(01:22:29):
I don't know why we're here.
I don't know how we got here.
My mom thinks aliens put ushere, but I don't believe we
were put here to hate each otherbecause of, uh, difference in
color or difference innationality or difference in
language.
And I don't believe anybody wasput on this earth to destroy
another human being.
But unfortunately, so many, somany people do out of ignorance

(01:22:53):
or illness, or yeah uh, hurtpeople, hurt people.

Heather (01:22:57):
Yeah, that's part of it I think.

RJ (01:23:00):
But but breaking the cycle right.
Breaking the cycle is what it'sall about and that's why I
admire what you're doing so much.
You have been through as muchor more pain as me in a lot less
years than me, and all you wantto do is help people.

(01:23:20):
And it's like all I've wantedto do is curl into a ball and
hide and so like.
When I think about like you'regoing through what you're going
through, but at the same time,like you're building something
huge and big and I know it'sgoing to succeed, it just um, it
blows me away, because when I'min pain, I can't imagine

(01:23:43):
helping another person until Iactually physically see them
hurting, and then I'll give themanything they want if it just
makes them feel better.

Heather (01:23:53):
I don't know where it comes from, but I'll give
anything I have to anybody whoneeds it, even if it's, even if
I have to not be.
You know, like if it's justsomething that's like embedded
in.
I don't know why I feel likethat.
Maybe it's not wanting not somuch anymore, but like I don't

(01:24:21):
know, I just I give myself awayto anyone else before, like I do
something for myself no, I getthat because I consider myself a
very selfish person, but whenthe chips are down, I don't care
who you are.

RJ (01:24:37):
If you if you I mean literally need the shirt off of
my back, you're going to get it.
Yeah, uh, the only thing you'renot getting is my dog.
Um, you, you want my food.
You can have my food.
You need my last $3 or $10.
You're getting my last fewbucks.
If you need it more than I do,there's nothing I wouldn't give

(01:24:58):
to help somebody who trulyneeded help, and that goes hand
in hand with my.
What I said about being in lovewith love.
I believe that's what love is,and it doesn't have to just be
romantic love.
It's, um, it's giving ofyourself to other people, and I
know that sounds cliched andcheesy, but it's being forgotten

(01:25:19):
too much in this kind ofsociety.
Uh, which is where the um, thehatefulness towards uh, I hate
calling it illness, mentalillness, mental disorder,
whatever you want to call itdiagnoses.
There's so much hatred thatpeople are getting worse, not

(01:25:39):
better, except for a veryhandful.
It kind of makes you think thatJehovah's Witnesses might have
been on to something with only165,000 people getting into
their heaven, because the restof them are crap, I don't know.
They have a very limited number.

(01:25:59):
Apparently they have a veryexclusive heaven, very exclusive
.

Heather (01:26:04):
A friend of mine, zoe.
I talked to her on the podcast.
She was in Jehovah's Witnessesuntil she was 18.
What did she think of that?
You should listen to it.

RJ (01:26:16):
It's pretty raw.

Heather (01:26:20):
Did she have a difficult time.
She was excommunicated at 18.
She was pregnant at 18 and losther baby daddy right after that
and just like a stream of youknow terrible events, but she's
a very, very strong woman and agreat, fantastic mother and if

(01:26:44):
you can survive all of thosethings happening.

RJ (01:26:47):
I mean, you know I call myself a trauma survivor, but
there's a lot of trauma Ihaven't had.
I've never had children.
I don't know what it's like tobe a parent.
There's so many things Icouldn't even People say oh, I
understand or I get it.
We were talking about parentingearlier today.

(01:27:09):
I couldn't even say the words Iunderstand, because the fact is
I don't, don't, yeah and uh, Ithink it's adulthood and like
reaching a point is likeunderstanding that it's okay to
learn and yeah, I don't knowit's, um, it's strange that you

(01:27:33):
mentioned her, because my, mygrandmother just turned 97
yesterday and she has a sister,uh, who's just a few years
younger than her, and she's ajehovah's witness, and and her
daughter was excommunicated forbecoming a Catholic.

(01:27:53):
But it wasn't just that mygrandma's sister, my great-aunt
Verna, she, wasn't allowed tohave any contact with her
daughter.
My brother's second wife joinedthe Jehovah's Witnesses as a
money scam, and I remember myniece Loretta.

(01:28:13):
The only gifts we were allowedto give her on any holiday, they
couldn't be wrapped in holidaypaper.
It had to be, wrapped incartoons in the newspaper,
things like that, and theycouldn't be Christmas gifts or
anything like that, they had tojust be gifts, gifts, yeah.
So the ostracism and theclannish and I'm not saying that

(01:28:36):
they're a bad organization,everybody teach their own, but I
don't think there's any goodreligion if it excludes people.

Heather (01:28:51):
Yeah, any any good religion if it excludes people.
Yeah, I promise you you listento that zoe's story on the
podcast.
It's, it's crazy like, oh well,she got, yeah, kicked out, but
like they did like a court thingand just like it was a bunch of
just grown men, you know,basically like grilling her
about the sex that she had outof, you know, out of wedlock,

(01:29:12):
that's insane yeah, so likethat's just like a snippet of
like well, it's not just that,because all of her years in such
a religion would have groomedher to respect their authority,
not to protect herself uh,definitely not to lie to them.

RJ (01:29:32):
So she probably felt horribly ashamed because they
told her she should be ashamed.
Right, she was just being ahuman being, a human being,
that's it, yeah exactly, and Idon't like uh judgmentalism.

Heather (01:29:44):
Yeah, I promise you you will align very much with her
story.
It's very much a story ofperseverance.

RJ (01:29:55):
Anybody who went through that I mean because of my
great-aunt's daughter.
I know it's a very rough thing.
I don't know from personalexperience, but I would be very
interested to listen to thatbecause that's, that's hardcore.
I can't imagine beingspiritually cut off from my

(01:30:18):
family, my friends and also myreligion, being told you're not
allowed to be part of us anymore.
I don't know that's.
That sounds so high schoolcliquey to me, but at the same
time it's so much more damagingthan that it is.

Heather (01:30:34):
I want to kind of do some final thoughts, because I'm
tired.
You're good, but we have somuch good stuff.
So tonight.

RJ (01:30:46):
Thank you like seriously.
No, thank you seriously, likeseriously.
No, thank you seriously,because you truly, truly humbled
me, asking me to do this.
This is really exciting.

Heather (01:30:58):
It's wonderful.
I'm so grateful.
Yeah, like this is, I don'tknow.
I don't know what it's going todo for you, but I know what
it's going to do for otherpeople.
And sometimes that's like ajourney that people find out
after they listen to it, andthey, you know, I don't know,

(01:31:21):
everybody's experience isdifferent with it, but right now
this is my favorite thing inthe world, besides just chilling
with my kids.

RJ (01:31:29):
I can totally see that when you talk about it you light up
talking about this journey thatyou're on with the podcast and
with everything else that you'regoing to do.
I'm not going to say trying todo, I'm going to say going to do
.
You light up the way that I dowhen I talk about scuba diving,

(01:31:50):
because I don't have a whole lotof enthusiasm for much left
anymore.

Heather (01:31:54):
But damn, if I don't love doing that, I'm gonna do it
too, because he told me to Iwill, I promise um and uh, and
then I'm definitely gonna comevisit you in ohio, for sure you
didn't go better, because my carwill not run far enough to get
me all the way back out here.
We're going to be doing allright over here pretty soon.

(01:32:14):
So once you get back home andyou know we're going to meet up
again and it's going to be coolto see how far you've come.
Like it'll be a cool fullcircle sort of thing you know
it's funny.

RJ (01:32:31):
You say that because I have, for the past several years, had
this fuck it, I'm just gonnakeep doing what I'm doing
attitude, and it's not becauseof what I recently went through,
because that's nothing new.
Um, heartbreak's nothing new.
Heartbreak is nothing new to me.

(01:32:53):
I'm really freaking good atdoing it now, as making a friend
like you and having somebodynot just treat me with simple
common human decency andkindness, but with extreme
kindness and friendship, butwith extreme kindness and

(01:33:14):
friendship like it, lifts me upit makes me want to be there on
that day to be like yeah look atall this crap I did you know
like check it out.
Look where I am.

Heather (01:33:19):
Now you have to you know, I have to because I
promise well, I don't break myword, I can.

RJ (01:33:25):
I can tell you that there you go unless I have to have to.
There you go Forcibly likecan't keep it.

Heather (01:33:31):
Well, I'm very grateful that I got to meet you and that
we're going to remain friends,and thanks for all the help
you've done.
Not only you know like.
You've done a lot for my heart,you've done a lot for You're
going to make me cry.
You've got to stop For JJ.

(01:33:53):
Jj loves you.
Him and Loki are bros and I'mglad we got to do the little
go-and-go thing.
I am so glad.
Yeah, that was awesome.
Yeah, I appreciate you beinghere and I can't wait for us to
link up again.

RJ (01:34:12):
Well, there's just some people you don't let go of, you
know.
There's just some people thatthe minute you meet, they're
lifers.
You know you stay connected.

Heather (01:34:22):
Yeah, it feels right, it feels right yeah.

RJ (01:34:26):
Thank you so much, seriously , and the things you said.
They really, really touched me.
Um, it has been a long timesince I've been able to,
emotionally, uh, speak my mindto a friend and not feel like a
freak or feel like I was goingto be judged or feel like, you

(01:34:46):
know, they're shaking their headat me, like behind my back, and
I don't feel any of that and Ijust like I don't remember when
the last time I felt that was.
It's a cold world out there aswe know it is but there's plenty
of people out there that makeit warmer, and you're one of
them.
I will say that your lightshines bright, my friend.

Heather (01:35:10):
Well, I appreciate that more than you'll ever know.
But thank you so much, heather,and thank you to everyone else
who still watches and listens.
And yeah, thank you and goodbye.
I'll talk to you guys all later.
Bye, thanks for having me.

(01:35:30):
Bye.

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Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 13 | Heather Lisk

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 13 | Heather Lisk