Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 19 | Donna Daniel - Hanging with Humans

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and welcome to the Humans Podcast.
I'm your host, rj, and today Ihave a very special guest.
I'm sitting with Donna Daniel.
Would you like to say hello,hello, hi.
Today is December 19th.
We are almost to Christmas,donna.
Yep, it's very nice to meet you, donna.

(00:24):
Nice to meet you, donna, niceto meet you too, rj um we uh, me
and donna met through um mydear friend, my neighbor marcy.
Marcy and donna how long youguys you've been friends for a
little over a year, really, yeahI thought you guys were like
forever friends or something,but that's.

(00:45):
I love that, though, because Ihave really strong bonds and
relationships with people I justmet.
In comparison to people like Igrew up with and known for years
and years, I feel like we'reall in the same frequency type
of thing.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Yeah, kind of like a soul family thing.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
So I feel very privileged, um be that you're uh
gonna share your story with meand everyone else, because, uh,
what I do with the podcast is,uh we were talking about earlier
that we live in this time rightnow, where you don't know
what's real and what's not andwhat's not right, social media

(01:24):
and everything in between it andand I'm trying to to show
everybody what's really going onin the world, because every
place looks different, but a lotof us go through the same
challenges Exactly If we can layout a map of how you, you know,

(01:44):
made your way through all your,you know, your life and you can
, you can save somebody frommaking the same mistakes.

(02:05):
So that's why I started doingthis, because I feel like when I
was just traveling all over theplace, I would listen to
podcasts and audio books forhours and hours and hours, and I
listened to so many people thathave gone through tragedy and
struggle and came out on top,and that always motivated me to
be like it's okay, like you know, it doesn't matter where you
came from or what you wentthrough.
You can get through it, it'spossible.
So, so, yeah, um, so, withbeing said, we're going to
interview you today, and yeah.

(02:27):
So, donna, how old are you?

Speaker 2 (02:31):
I'm 64.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
You look 34.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, don't, I wish no, no, I don't want to go back.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
We're in Glendive Montana right now.
How long have you been here?

Speaker 2 (02:42):
I have lived in Glendive Montana for 13 years 13
years, 13 years, wow.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Is that the longest tenured one place you've been?

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Oh, no, no, no.
I'm originally from Portland,oregon, where I grew up in
family home and everything wasthere.
For years I've lived otherplaces, but still.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Portland's the longest, portland's the longest.
Is that what you consider home?
Not anymore, not anymore.
Is this home?
No, no.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's home right now, right now, right now.
But, as my sign says, home isnot a place.

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Wow, I love that you were born in 1960.
Yes, you were adopted.
Yes, I have this thinghighlighted $500.
Can you explain kind of howthat process is and what that
stands for right there?

Speaker 2 (03:41):
I was adopted before I was born.
I was adopted before I was born.
The family- had adopted me.
My uncle knew the woman who waspregnant with me.

(04:01):
He was married my uncle, shewas married, she already had two
children, and my mom and dadhad been married for, I think,
six years and, um my momcouldn't get pregnant, and so my
uncle told grandma, who toldthem about this woman who, um

(04:24):
was going to give up her child,and so they went to the lawyer
and paid $500 for paperwork.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
That's all it is to do that?
Huh yeah, it was the way it was.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
I mean because which also kind of plays into the
narrative that my mother wasreally my aunt.
However, nobody will really sayit to be a fact.
I have a cousin who on my lastbirthday called me sister, so Is

(05:04):
that all new or old informationfor you?
um.
The information came more tolight when I was 33?
Um.
My mother had a catholic biblewhich is now my family bible.
Um what she did was she wrotedown information in between.

(05:24):
You know where they say readbetween the lines.
My mother wrote the informationin this Bible between the lines
Address names, that kind ofstuff.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
Really Wow.
So you just discovered that andread between the lines.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, and my mom.
Finally, when I was 33, I wasgetting ready to graduate with
my second degree and had fouryears in sobriety, she took it
upon herself to find them.
Yeah, so I met my older sister,older brother and my two

(06:01):
younger sisters when I was 33.
Really, yeah, which only openedmore cans of worms.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yeah.
So was that a shock to you?
Or what is the feeling of?
Hey, you have all these familymembers, now you're going to
meet, and what you thought yourpast was isn't exactly what it
is?

Speaker 2 (06:24):
I was excited and I was excited.
I don't remember feelingapprehensive, but I was excited
and I remember when we drove upto my brother's house, there was
a little girl outside all ofabout eight, and I went there.
I am Because she looked exactlylike I did when I was eight
years old.
Her hair was the same color andthe way it was styled was the

(06:46):
same.
It was kind of surreal.
It was hard on the two youngersisters.
They were expecting a baby andnot this full-grown person,
full-grown person, the brotherwho was not the oldest, my

(07:12):
oldest sister, who was all of4'11", who's no longer with us.
She knew about me and my twoyounger sisters knew about me,
but he didn't.
It was another secret thattheir mom because I never met
her, she'd been gone for threeyears.
When we found them, um, he hadno idea and so for him it was

(07:35):
another trauma yeah he was agrown man.

Speaker 1 (07:38):
But another trauma of when something his mom kept
from me yeah, um, if, if youwere in the position that your
mom was in, do you think youwould have approached it
differently?
In, in, in, information wise,let letting.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Letting that out um, I believe it would have been
better had I known earlier.
Yeah, um, it was just one more,I don't know.
Meeting my aunts wasinteresting because they had a
different version of why I wasgiven three reasons why I was

(08:18):
given away, and two of them madeit kind of okay.
You know, I could understandbeing a female being put in that
position.
You know, would I have made thesame kind of decisions?
The one that I have the hardesttime is that she just didn't
want to do another kid and thenshe had two more.

(08:42):
So you know, product of a rapeI can understand.
Product of an affair, I canunderstand yeah, not the last
one no, the last one is reallyhard for me.
um, it's not a choice that I'dmake, but I again don't have the

(09:07):
right.
You know, and back in 1960,getting an abortion was not
something you did.
Yeah, because a lot of timesthose women die.
Yes.
They're headed right back forSure Makes me angry.
As far as we've come to, haveto go back 50 years just totally
blows me away pretty crazy.
Yeah, yeah, considering when Iwas 14, it was a decision I had

(09:30):
the right to make.
Yeah, um, so yeah, and, and I'msure that's shaped the way I
see the world too yeah, yeah, no, absolutely, um, so we'll just
start from the beginning oct,october 18th 1989.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Is that your first day of sobriety?

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Yeah, that was my first day of sobriety.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, let's start there.
What's life like in that moment?

Speaker 2 (10:15):
prior to that moment, october 17th 1989 was my last
drunk and I am an alcoholic,have been probably my whole life
.
I was a blackout drinker at theage of 13.
True alcoholic, allergic to thesubstance, didn't know when I
blackout, didn't know when I'dget a hangover.
Usually I didn't get a hangover, I usually got a hangover
before the blackout.
But I functioned.

(10:36):
I could function a blackout,which is very.
I kept a check for five yearsto remind me just the kind of
stupid stuff I would do drunk.
Yeah, I know.
So it started there.
Um, I'd left a bar I guess itdidn't get far ended up on the
sidewalk on the ground in frontof an apartment building on

(11:01):
Hawthorne, which is a very busystreet in Portland, and came to
see my little brother, who wasall of 17 at the time, with his
first girlfriend getting readyto cross the street.
They didn't even see me andhaving to ask for help.

(11:24):
And that was my moment ofclarity.
I already knew I was analcoholic because I go to the
bar and say to the bartender I'man alcoholic, now you have an
excuse for my behavior, which istrue.
And I became that depressed,crying female in the corner at
the end of my drinking and I wasstill young.

(11:48):
I was 29 29, it's not very old.
No, um, I didn't look 29.
I've already been pretty battletested and battle worn at that
point.
Yeah, um, so that was thebeginning.
That was the end and thebeginning.
That was the beginning.
That was the end and thebeginning of entirely new life.

Speaker 1 (12:08):
You were a runaway at eight years old.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Yeah, the first time I ran away from home I was eight
.
I was a chubby eight year oldtoo.
We lived in a mobile home and Ihad the front bedroom, which
had a half bath in it, and sothe window cranked open and it
had slots like this.
I was able to climb out thoseslots and ran into the field.
We lived in the home park.

(12:30):
There's a field next door withall kinds of cherry trees and
stuff.
And waited.
Nobody came looking for me.
Nobody even knew I was gone, soI ended up going back home.
Nobody even knew I was gone, soI ended up going back home and
then a few days later I calledthe authorities on my mom.
But back then it was okay toabuse your children and I was

(12:55):
the problem.
Anyway, 1968, banner year.
Lost Bobby Kennedy, we lostMartin Luther King, I lost my
innocence.
It's a historical year for thiscountry.

(13:17):
We went to the moon and allkinds of stuff.
My dad left for the last time.
My mother picked me up and heldme for the last time.
Picked me up, told me I wasadopted and sent me back down.
And that's the last time mymother ever held me.
After that, that's it.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
And your dad?
He was a drinker.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Yeah, my dad was a World War II veteran Bronze star
winner.
Okay, yeah, my dad was adrinker.
He was a high-functioningalcoholic.
He worked his whole life.
He was a hard worker.

(14:01):
He was a small engine mechanic.
He was a hard worker.
He was a small engine mechanicBefore 1968, we did things like
camping and my dad fished and wewent deer hunting every year
and elk hunting.
By the time I was eight yearsold, I could skin a deer.
Yeah, but my life changed in1968, and not for the better.

Speaker 1 (14:24):
I have a question your dad's drinking.
You said things were like youguys went camping and did cool
things like that.
Is the drinking happen after hegot back from the war?

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yes, world War II, alcohol was the drug of choice.
Every war has its drug.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
And alcohol.
You know, and I'm sure, alcoholwas also a big thing in World
War.
I.
My grandfather was a World WarI veteran and one-star winner
that I didn't know that untilabout four years ago.
Four years ago.
When a cousin from Texas reachedout and traced me and that's

(15:09):
when I found out I had thiswhole other family I never knew.
I thought my grandfather was anonly child.
My daddy was, my daddy was.
I thought my grandpa was tooand he wasn't.
And that family split up guesswhat?
Over money and prestige, yeah.
So it's like, oh, that's weird.
So if you know that, you knowmy grandfather grew up riding

(15:30):
horses and, um, my cousin sentme a picture of my grandpa when
he was little on a horse intexas.
That's cool.
Yeah, so someday I'll go totexas just because I'd like to
see it, absolutely.
Yeah.
So my grandpa drank and smoked.
I never saw my.

(15:52):
I never remember my grandpabeing drunk, but I do remember
he would go out in the garageand drink his Rainier Ale in the
green bottle and have hiscigarettes, right Until he got
emphysemic.
Grainier ale in the greenbottle and have his cigarettes,
right, yeah, until he gotemphysema Another whole year.
That changed my life.
But you know, it's like thosechapters, they're books, they're

(16:15):
not chapters.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Yeah, yeah, we were talking about that when I do
this interview process I try tonarrow down important or crucial
chapters in people's lives andI try to narrow down to a couple
just.
But you got books, I got books,lots of chapters, many books,

(16:37):
couple volumes.
So yeah, so that was.
You said that was a whole, notwhole.
Other thing with the emphysemaand your grandpa passing, that
was rough.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, that was again.
1968 is when he was diagnosed.
My dad gets kicked out.
My grandma and grandpa live inGresham and so I would visit
them.
But after my grandpa got sick,my grandma changed and I never
understood.
For a long time I didn'tunderstand, until after my dad
passed away what was going onwith my grandma changed and I
never understood.
For a long time I didn'tunderstand, until after my dad
passed away, what was going onwith my grandma, um, and she

(17:12):
became angry and turned intothis person that I had never met
.
My grandma had been this big,jolly grandma from new Mexico,
texas.
You know, fat babies arehealthy babies, right?
Yeah, yeah, we'd go shopping,we'd do this, we'd do that.
After grandpa got sick.

(17:33):
She wasn't happy.
I know that now.
Yeah, I just at that timedidn't understand what happened
because it got weird.
She had a little holly bush inthe backyard and I took hedge
clippers and went out andtrimmed it right and was really

(17:58):
careful thought I was reallycareful.
And then my grandma and I wentoff and when we got back she
went in the backyard.
My grandma and I went off andwhen we got back she went in the
backyard and she came in thehouse and started ranting to my
grandpa how he tried to kill herholly bush, and I mean, the
energy behind her anger wasintense.

(18:20):
Um, my grandpa took so much ofher flack she's going to take
him to jail, all kinds of stuff.
So she makes him get in the car.
We get in the car.
I'm in the backseat, scared,witless, and we drive a few feet
a block and she makes him getout.
She throws a brick at him, shetries to run him over with the

(18:42):
car and I'm terrified.
I'm an 8-year-old, I'mterrified.
I'm witnessing this extremeviolence.
And finally, when we get back tothe house, my grandpa took the
majority of it and told her thatit was me.
By the time she was done withme, I felt like she'd broken

(19:04):
every bone in my body and shedidn't leave a mark on me.
Scary person so, and I nevertold anybody.
I didn't tell my mom.
I didn't tell anybody BecauseI'd already been taught don't
talk, don't tell, don't trust.
That had already been ingrainedfrom all the other stuff in my

(19:25):
life, and so yeah, 1968 was abad year.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Um, do you, does that just stem from you?
Think her broken heart?

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Well, when my dad died in 1974 from alcoholism, my
grandma was still.
My grandpa was still alive andI was outside the courtroom and
he told me that him and my dadhad my dad had promised him that

(19:58):
when grandpa passed away hewould have my grandmother
committed.
I found out that in the 50scould have been 40s my
grandmother had been treatedwith electroshock therapy and

(20:20):
what happened when it got worse,I she started to have her
psychotic break.
When my grandpa got emphysemaand couldn't work anymore.
That was one stressor.
Yeah.
But then when my dad died, itjust it turned her yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
It's crazy that, like there's so many different
components to being alive, beinga human and living a healthy
day to day life, but you cansubtract one thing.
You know it's probably thehugest thing in the world to her
that she's attached to, but youtake that away and it
completely changes the whole.

Speaker 2 (21:01):
You know the person'sna almost like like they
become a different person it'samazing what happens in the in
the brain with trauma and howtrauma new trauma can trigger
old trauma.
And if you don't have the toolsto work with the old trauma
when it comes up, yeah, you getstuck.

(21:23):
And that's what happened forher, I'm sure.
And my grandpa was so frail bythe time my dad died, I know
that that last year of his lifemust have been horrible.
You know, I never heard himever say one bad thing about my
grandma ever.
How would?

(21:46):
she believe that and I know thathe loved me because he was
willing to take all thatpunishment from her to save me.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
Yeah he did love you, mm-hmm, absolutely when.
What happens with thatsituation?
Your grandma, she's gone overthe top and treating you a
certain way.
Uh, what?
What's?
What's next after?
After that, you moved toPortland.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Well, when I was 12, we moved to Portland.
Um, my dad died when I was 14and I went with my mom one time
to go see my grandparents, butthey weren't there anymore.
My grandpa had died.
To this day I don't know wherehe's buried what, because that's

(22:41):
how she punished me.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Because that's how she punished me.
There has to be a way you canget information on something
like that.
Yeah, that's very hard.
I'm very sorry that that's howthat turned out.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Yeah, me too.
It was maybe the first time ofa real family betrayal, but it
hasn't been the last.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
Man turns out.
It's much more common than weall think.
You don't get to pick yourfamily.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
No, but they picked me and boy they did.
Well, and I got picked to savea marriage that couldn't be
saved, and I got, and I'm prettysure that's why my mother
treated me the way she did.
It doesn't make it right.
No, it doesn't make it right.

(23:36):
However, it does make it honest.
Yeah, I guess I'm grateful todaythat I have the ability to put
myself in somebody else's shoesto see what could have been the
reason, and I'll never know whatall that is, because my mother

(23:58):
was not an open person, so thoseanswers may or may not come,
and what I know today is thattrying to find those answers led
me to a lot of really weirdplaces.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
I can imagine you.
I mean, it doesn't end the youknow the turbulence.
You know the turbulence and theculture shock in Portland.
What was that like?
You came from what?

Speaker 2 (24:35):
From a small town smaller than Glendive.
The culture shock was I hadnever, where I grew up was all
white.
My best friend, though, wholived across the street, was
Mexican Hispanic.
Her folks had come from Mexico.
They're who I ended up going tochurch with as a kid.
She was my best friend, virginia.
That's awesome, and yeah, youknow I.

(24:57):
But I hadn't gone to schoolwith anybody of color where I
was from.
My grandmother lived in a partof Portland that her neighbors
were black.
Yeah, okay, I grew up with avery bigoted family, something I
fought my whole freaking entirelife against.

(25:19):
I don't know, I must have justbeen born with that gene or
something that knew of us waswrong.
Yeah, you can't judge peoplebased on what they look like.
Absolutely.
And she was one of those thatwould say, oh, and my best
friend is black, I have a coupleof friends that are black and I
was like oh God here we goagain.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
Here we go.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
You know, my aunt was Jewish and that was another one
she'd get old of.
Oh Matt was another one she'dget old of.
Oh boy, yeah, one of the fewpeople I know.
My uncle was a Catholic Jew.
Awesome, he's like okay, mycousins got the best of both
worlds.
I was pissed.
You know, we got Christmas.
They got Hanukkah and Christmas.
Wait a minute, they got both.

(25:59):
Yeah, they got both.
That's fair, that's funny.
It's a child's mind, for youJust knew they were getting
presents for eight days.
That's awesome, notunderstanding what it was all
about.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
What is it?
Oh, what's the candle thing,the menorah, yeah About the oil
lamp.

Speaker 2 (26:14):
Yep, the lamp oil lasting for eight days, when it
should have not even lasted aday.
Dang Miracle.
Miracle of light, miracle oflight, miracle of light.
And this year it starts onChristmas, which doesn't happen
very often that Hanukkah beginson Christmas day, but this year
it does.

Speaker 1 (26:31):
I didn't even know it changed.
That's cool.
You got thrown into the fire,young.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Very young.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, you faced a lot of hardships and you pretty
much kind of been on your ownfor at least without parental
guidance, all the way through um.
So when you don't have thatguidance, uh leadership from the
people that are supposed to beloving you, take care of you
it's easy to make, uh, not thebest decisions or, like we

(27:07):
talked about, it's easy to bemanipulated.
Yeah, um, and especially whenyou're just trying to figure
yourself out and trying tofigure out how this world works
and, uh, there's so much there'sevil.
There's there's good out there,you know, but there's
definitely evil, um.
So, speaking of evil, no, um,uh, it's not.

(27:31):
It's a very not easy subject totalk about, but, um, first
marriage, um, and then thatfamily, um that I mean you've
already had trauma leading up tothat, but that had to have been
a significant time period event.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
Yeah, I met my first husband when I was 16.
We met in a movie theater.
I had gone to the movies and hesat behind me.
Back then halter dresses werereally popular.
I thought he was driving hisparents car.
When it was his car, my firsthusband was 11 years older and

(28:21):
looked younger than me becausewhen I was 16 I could pass for
much older.
I remember him and I being outtogether and they'd card him and
not me.
That's crazy.
I mean, I started gamblingcasinos at 17, 18.
I got into my first casino byjust laughing at the girl for

(28:44):
asking me for my ID.
I learned real young how towell, I'd always done acting.
That's always been my thing so,and I could tell a good story,
a believable story, yeah, soyeah I am.
I was my father's only legalheir and he left no will, so

(29:12):
everything that my dad had wentto me.
First, my grandmother, hismother, tried to take it by
being the executor and taking myhand, spinning it like she
wasn't supposed to, and then wegot a court-appointed one, but
my mother did things like shewasn't supposed to.
And then we got a courtappointed one, but my mother did
things like sold the truck outfrom under me, um, just just

(29:33):
yeah, passive, aggressive things, and um, so I met, skip, skip,
so I met.
Skip, skip.
Yes, he's a, skip, yeah, he's a.
Skippy, yeah, skip, that was hisnickname his aunt gave him when
he was a child and it stuck.

(29:55):
Of course, not knowing a wholelot, I didn't realize how sick
it was that his first wife hadbeen his foster mom until much
later in life.
Oh man, that's some information.
Yeah, well, to just see howsick that was, yeah right, but

(30:15):
no, I was in love.
I was 16, I was true and mymother gave me permission to
move in with him.
I had my little brother, whowas a brat the one that's only
four years younger than me hadsaid something to me when I was
in the van, in Skip's van.

(30:35):
We were getting ready to go outand I can't tell you what he
said, but I know it pissed meoff enough that I chased him up
onto the porch and he puthimself in the corner and I just
started eating the shit out ofhim.
When I got home that night ontime, there wasn't a freaking
curfew, wasn't doing anythingwrong.
My mother said why are you here?

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Your daughter.
I was gone.
That was it, huh.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, because a few months earlier she already on my
16th birthday didn't come homeand found my stuff on the porch.
So I'd already been kicked outbefore.
So this wasn't the first, andit was the second time in less
than six months.
So yeah, you know.
And then she waited until fiveminutes, and it was the second
time in less than six months.
So yeah, and then she waiteduntil five minutes before the

(31:29):
ceremony to tell me he was onlymarrying me for my money?
Oh no, he's not.
He loves me.
No money was gone in ninemonths.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Dang 16, 17, young.
You don't even know what's what.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Gave up a house that I owned outright, Gave up Wow
and just and spent it all.
I did spend it all.
I spent it mostly on him.
Yeah, you know, we had aspeedboat and we had a Trans Am
and we had a nice Datsun KinkClub truck and you know, I

(32:11):
didn't even have a driver'slicense Because, guess what, I
didn't get that until justbefore he left me by father.
Really.
Yeah, wow, he got his dream job.
I ended up with what I walkedout with, with less, because I
walked out I still had a bankaccount that you know had

(32:33):
inheritance.
So I walked back to my mother'shouse.
I had no inheritance, I had twosuitcases and that was it.
I'd gone to take care of herafter her hysterectomy.
He informed me he wanted adivorce by phone by phone dang,
I'm sorry that happened that way.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
That's not how you do things yeah, I've been trying
to figure out how you'resupposed to do things for the
last 35 years well, I know onething you don't ignore, and you
know there's conversations thatare important to be had face to
face in person, especially inthat situation.

(33:13):
You know I couldn't yeah.
And again.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
He accused me of being the reason we didn't have
children.
Guess what I got pregnantshortly after that.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, wow you were 17 anyways, like when we got
married?
Yep yeah and then divorced bythe, but enforced by the time I
was 19, yeah, yeah, 20, rightyep um divorced uh pregnant at
20 pregnant.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
Pregnant at 19,.
Delivered at 20.
Delivered at 20.

Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, um, that was your first child.

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Yes, that was my first, my girl.

Speaker 1 (33:55):
Um married at 21?
.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
Married to my second husband.
Yeah, just shortly after Iturned 21.
March 6th of 1981, 1981, we gotmarried.
I turned 21 in February, so noteven a month later.
Met him, though, in 1980, inNovember of 1980, and she was

(34:20):
two months old, he bought herher first crib, because her crib
was a laundry basket.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
That wasn't well.
He wanted to adopt her right.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
Um, it was yeah, when she was three and we weren't
together anymore.

Speaker 1 (34:48):
He cheated.
No, I did you cheated, that'sright yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:51):
I did.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
And he was going to forgive and try to, but you
couldn't deal with it.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
I couldn't forgive myself.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
Your number one moral code that you wouldn't ever
break, and you did it.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Yep, one moral code that you wouldn't ever break,
and you did it.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
yep, you still sounds weird, considering my first
husband and I had a swingerslifestyle, so I guess it does
kind of sound when you look atit that way.

Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah, but swingers are honest it's an open
relationship.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Yeah, it's already discussed what you guys are
doing yeah, so it's exactly.

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, it's different.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
Yeah, yeah, wow.
Where do we go from there?
Bartending and partying.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, bartending, partying, communal living.
We did a lot of communal Cruz.
We moved as a group.
So there was my friend Sarahand another couple and us and

(35:53):
our friend John, or Steve,brother, steve in a house six
blocks from the beach in SantaCruz, trying to live our best
lives, had two babies.
By then, angie was up andwalking and Chris was learning.

(36:16):
Yeah, going down and listeningto the warmth of the beach.

Speaker 1 (36:24):
The beach is healing.

Speaker 2 (36:27):
Santa Cruz was.
It was an amazing place.
We had a house with a pool,except the pool was never
cleaned.
The owners never cleaned it, sowe didn't ever get to use it.
But yeah, I was used to.
By then I had already.
I mean, when you're a kid kidyou're always living with people
.
You know, because I was avisual runaway and I started

(36:53):
about 13.
So I was 13 to when I met Skip.
I had lived out of my house alot, yeah, and done a lot of
things by then Tried to harmmyself on seven different
occasions by the time I was 15.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
So, yeah, Is that just trying to escape the pain
of life with that, the self-harm?

Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, well, I was committing suicide.
It was not Attempting, I wasn't.
Yeah, I attempted suicide.
Well, I was committing suicide,it was not Attempting.
Yeah, I attempted suicide seventimes in a year.
Wow, after my dad died, woke upone day when I was 15 and
realized I couldn't do that,obviously.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Obviously.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Obviously, god said no, no, seven times.
Seven times Didn't work.
And I got to revisit that onein sobriety too, because they
promised me that, yeah, that Iwould get to experience
everything I experience outthere in recovery.
And they haven't lied to me yet.

(38:01):
They haven't lied to you yet.
No, they haven't lied to me yet.
Just because I'm sober doesn'tmean I always think right.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
So you think that's true?

Speaker 2 (38:10):
No, I think you're going to be the most screwed up
on the planet.
So today I just try to be abetter person than I was
yesterday.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
Absolutely.
That's all we can do.
Yeah, I truly believe in that.
On the, I'm not sure if I'mskipping too far ahead on this.
This is a kind of a crazymoment Fifteen months old, a
window incident.

Speaker 2 (38:36):
Yeah, my son, christopher, ed and I were
estranged at that point and Edhad come back from Santa Cruz,
gotten the kids.
He had the kids and I hadchosen a really strange
lifestyle, but again, it wassomething that I needed to

(38:57):
experience.
Today I know that.
And Ed was working for aheating and cooling company in
Portland and doing okay and hadthe kids at a babysitter's in
downtown Portland who she wasyoung and she left the window
open which didn't have a screenand the couch was right there

(39:20):
and my son fell out of herapartment window in downtown
Portland where there is no grass.
There was a tree on his waydown.
It broke his fall.
When they got him he wasscreaming at the top of his
lungs and the paramedics, fromwhat I understand, were very
happy.
He was screaming at the top ofhis lungs.

(39:40):
Yeah, because he should nothave survived.
Because he did, he broke a rib,he broke his pelvis.
My son stood up and walked.
At seven months old had nevercrawled and, being in that body
cast, he had to learn to crawlbecause he had to pull himself
around.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
So he's got great upper body strength I can
imagine, um three stories, threestories, three stories.
Well, he's supposed to be here.
Um divorced at 24.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
Yeah, Second divorce 24.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
Um, I know that the time periods are different, but
uh like it was news to me thatyou're telling me that Clinton
had that program to get womenoff of welfare, correct?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, that started in 86.
I don't remember when he was inoffice Because I know I was at
the end in 89, and 90 was theend of the program.
You weren't getting collegeanymore, but his whole program
was to get women off the welfarerolls.
Because you know, everybody wassaying, oh, women are just

(40:53):
getting pregnant and having kids, dot, dot, dot, dot dot.
Which was a freaking lie,people.
Let me tell you that's thebiggest lie you were ever told.
And if you bought it, sorry, wedidn't do it because we wanted
to, we did it to survive and wedid not have kids to be on
welfare you need to survive lastthing we wanted and tell me in
19 think about this.

(41:14):
1989 I got 256 dollars a monthto live on cash cash folks, and
then 80 worth of food stamps.
I want you to think back to1989 and think about how you
would have had to have lived.
So again, don't judge people.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Stop judging out there um I grew up very section
8, welfare, yeah and, and it'snot true.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
I mean, yes, you have the bad actors.
You have the bad actorseverywhere.
You know, a few bad apples willruin the whole barrel.
That's a fact.
I mean those things that youknow.
Our parents said, ourgrandparents said there was a
reason.
They do make sense.
My mother, who wouldn't acceptcharity in fact, one of the
churches I went to gave me acoat.

(42:05):
I went home, I was so happy andproud she made me take it back
and give it back.
Really.
Yeah, because that's what I'vebeen raised with is that you
don't accept charity.
But the church, so it's like awhole different thing, even from
the church, right, just becausethat's, my grandmother came out
of the depression era, okay, soI'm fortunate that I actually

(42:27):
lived with my grandmother when Iwas 14.
So I got to experience some ofwhat my mother had experienced,
and my grandmother was a hardwoman.
She didn't like kids.
She did not like children.
She didn't like me until I wasan adult, and then she liked me
and it was okay.
That's good.
Actually, I think she startedto like me before I was an adult
because I stood up to her.
That's what she wanted.

(42:48):
My grandmother was thematriarch.
She ran it, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
Yeah, she was the top dog.

Speaker 2 (42:53):
Oh, hell yes, Hell yes.
I love my grandmother.
She was tough, she was notdemonstrative, she never hugged.
None of that was part of herworld.

Speaker 1 (43:08):
So I grew up in a world where there wasn't any
physical contact anyway, not alot of affection, right, and
that's when you don't have that,when you're young that like we
need that as kids, we need that,that love that as adults too I
mean it's a proven fact that thehuman body really does require
so many hugs a day.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
I'm low.
I've been low for years.
I'm low.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
I get zero hugs.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
Yeah, Eight years Eight.
They say to be healthy you needeight hugs a day.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
I'm way behind.
Yeah, me too.
I've got to start working onthis, me too you know, Well,
anybody out there, hug Pleasesome hugs.
Give me some hugs Give me somelove.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's really important .
It is, it is, it is Absolutely.
People need to feel lovedbecause if you don't feel loved
and connected and wanted, you'llgo in search of that.
Yeah, and children go in searchof that.
Folks, they go in search ofthat.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
In the wrong way.
That's why we have the problemsthat we have.
You're so correct, have you'reso correct?
Um, your, your mom was a hardwoman.
Um, she has to be, because I'mnot sure what the exact moment
was.
But explain what, uh, momcouldn't tell.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Mom couldn't tell them that you weren't a
prostitute oh, um, before I gotsober and after I got my
daughter back, I was still usingand drinking and, um, I was a
boyfriend who set me up.
I set up a lot of folks.

(44:39):
Um, I had my daughter with meand, um, he went and got a motel
room and I went over to thestairs where he was at and, next
thing I know, the police arethere and I'm being arrested or
being detained.
They've taken my child.

(44:59):
It's the middle of the night,yeah, and I didn't know where.
I didn't realize where I waswas a high activity area, plus,
you know, later on I figured outthat the person I was with was
actually an informant.
Um, yeah, right, I've been insome places and done and said

(45:26):
some dumb things, just thinkingI knew something and I didn't
know.
Squat, I've been in a lot ofdangerous places anyway.
So they ended up taking mydaughter and leaving me, not
arresting me, leaving me andtaking my daughter.
So here I am getting solacefrom the person who set me up

(45:49):
that I didn't know would set meup Crazy.
Yeah, so I was able.
My mom was able to go get her.
Guilt and shame are awfulburdens to carry and really

(46:11):
nobody can make us feel guiltyor ashamed, they can instill it
in us, they can talk about it,but unless we buy into it.
But once I bought into it andI'd already been guilty my whole
life I mean, I was a guilteater I was made to feel guilty,

(46:31):
made to feel it was all myfault from, I think, the minute
I entered their home, yeah, andlosing my daughter.
That way, you know, once youlearn that you can't take you
out, you can certainly putyourself in places hoping

(46:52):
somebody else will take you out.
And I've done that over andover and over and over again in
my life and this episode led meto those kind of things.
So the state wanted my daughter,the state wanted me Not to help

(47:16):
me, mind you, but my mom hadhad my daughter with my
permission and had her oninsurance and stuff through her
work, and they used that.
They told my mother that theywere going to charge her with
fraud.
They were going to insurancefraud in particular, all these

(47:43):
kind of things.
My mom had worked at her ownhome.
They were threatening to takeeverything she had which it was
a lie, yeah and they asked herto admit that I was a known
prostitute, asked her to admitthat I was a known prostitute

(48:06):
and my mother's response waswell, I can't tell you, she's
not Some words that can burnforever in your brain.
Yeah, because I'd alreadylearned when I was 14 I couldn't
be a prostitute.
I tried, it didn't work.
No, I got arrested the firsttime, but I have no criminal

(48:28):
record because I used an aliasof somebody who actually had a
record Boy.
Am I a dummy?
I mean okay, folks.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
It was back in the day.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
I have been and done some really stupid things in my
life.
There's one of them other.
The other reason I couldn't bea prostitute is I actually liked
sex and just couldn't seegetting paid for it yeah, that's
another one.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Yeah, um, we all.
Life is about trial and error,boy is, is it?
Isn't it Right, but it's.
If you don't learn from thosemistakes is where where we
collapse.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Yes, where we get to keep doing it till we learn it,
Till we learn it.
That's why they told me when Igot sober I would get to
experience everything that Iexperienced out there.
So today, what I say is I'mstill on two limos, A long a
stretch and a regular white andmaroon.
If we're going to get specific,If we're going to be specific.

(49:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:29):
I think the next thing I have is 120 days sober
1987.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
1987.
1987.

(49:56):
I was with my third husband,who I married at 120 days.
I met him.
He was going to be my boss andI worked for him for like, oh,
two weeks and heard the infamouswords you're not.
And that's all I needed to hearwas I wasn't.

Speaker 1 (50:04):
You're not an alcoholic.
You're not a drug addict.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
No, I don't have that problem.
That's not any of my problems.
Man.
Uh-huh, yeah, it didn't takelong.
I was back to being a blackoutdrinker and we got married
December 19th 1987 today's thatwedding anniversary.
The other one was December 17th, the first one.

(50:30):
Yeah, I just missed that onewell, happy anniversary yeah
what a mess.
that whole relationship wasdoomed from the outset.
But again, I believe everythinghappens for a reason,
absolutely.
I had not experienced crackcocaine yet.
I had not experienced what itwas like to be in a relationship

(50:53):
with a chronic gambler.
I got to learn all that.
I got to learn all that.
I also got to find outafterwards all the awful things
that were done to me and mydaughter because of his
addiction Lived in a car.

(51:15):
I mean.
I got my daughter back.
That's part of the reason Imarried him and we were in a
different state, so Washingtonand Oregon.
I got my kid back.
Not that her life was a bowl ofroses, because it never was.
That girl saw things she shouldhave never seen.
They have a thing called theACE test ACEs.

(51:37):
I'm a 9.
If they just reword the lastone, I'd be a ten.
My daughter's a nine On thetrauma scale.
But I'm still sitting here, I'mstill standing, I'm still
walking, I'm still talking and Ireally should be locked up in a
rubber room.
Let's make sure you know it's apadded room and not a jail cell

(52:00):
.
Not that that shouldn't havebeen part of my journey, but god
took care of me.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
You know the angels walking and walking.
Yeah, there's a few differentinstances where you mentioned
there's some special angels thathelped you in in the darkest of
positions and when you reallyneeded someone, yeah, they came
through for you.
Yeah, I'm sure sometime afterthe husband and the split, what
ended that?
And where did you go?

(52:28):
Living out of the car withMonster, and then what?

Speaker 2 (52:31):
And then I got a job in North Portland as a bartender
, and the lady that hired me wasalso the apartment manager, and
so I got an apartment and a job.
I was a good bartender.

(52:54):
I also drank a lot of theiralcohol and got fired on my
birthday, which again was a goodthing, because then the person
that was just one of my patronsmy daughter was with my mom and
he took me to the coast and gotme out of the house.
I knew we were going to getraided at some point.
I was just getting these reallyweird messages.
Plus, I was drug addled too, soI'm sure some of it was

(53:15):
delusional, or was it becauseGod God would send people to
talk to me when I was reallybugging up and he got me out of
there and weird things happenedin that too.
So I got away from Tim andended up getting a job at Tongue

(53:42):
Point.
I worked on the Titan 4 housingproject, which was the housing
for the missile, which wasreally interesting, you know.
I mean.
So much happened in that shortamount of time from when I left
him.
I was still drinking.

(54:05):
I went to work as a boiler maker.
I was a card-carrying boilermaker for a year or so.
So I got to walk into kind ofmy mom's world, working in a
man's world that's dominated bymen.
So I got to walk into kind ofmy mom's world, working in a
man's world that's dominated bymen.
Met someone there who lived inPortland.

(54:27):
In fact, come to find out itwas only like we lived 10 blocks
apart and came back to Portlandand was dating him, still
drinking, still lying andmanipulating to get my booze.
But I was going to school tobecome a welder and the union,
of course, was paying for that.

(54:47):
I was a helper one at thatpoint and had been down to the
shipyards a couple of times butstill drinking, still doing
things I shouldn't be doing.
And so got a job working atFred Meyers in Portland Fred

(55:12):
Meyers, fred Meyers, yep, yep onHawthorne and got my daughter
into daycare, and I was workingin their cafeteria at that time.
So I was a short order cook andran the cash register Became,
you know, the person in chargeat night.
So I moved up fairly quicklybut my drinking of course

(55:36):
escalated during that point.
I mean, I was going to work todrink, getting up, going to work
to drink, getting up thisvicious cycle.
Cycle.
Had started to sleep with amixed drink by my bed, I would
tell my mom I'm going to get apack of cigarettes, I'm going to
go play pool, I'll be back.
Uh-huh, I'd close the bar down.

(55:57):
Come home.
Lay down Mm-hmm, come home.
Lay down.
Bars close at 2.30 in Portlandand I get back up at 5.
Mm-hmm.
So I, about 4 o'clock, 4.30, Iwake up and drink my drink.
Pass back out.
Pass back out, pass back out.
And get up, get my kid ready,and lots of times I have walked

(56:20):
down to the babysitter was onlyabout four blocks from Fred
Meyers, which was good, but myhouse was more than four blocks
or two miles away and we walkedup.
And then, october 17th, my laststroke.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Sober 1989, right yes 35 years.
Really Congratulations.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
I've been sober over half my life.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
That's amazing, that really is amazing.
I'm on that same path, you know, not that many years, but Okay,
every day counts every daycounts absolutely.
Um so the program to get soberyes, did.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
The program showed up in my first meeting, midnight
meeting at 11 o'clock midnightmeeting, 11 pm, portland yes you
said there are some angels inthat program.
Yes, Well, I walked up to thisguy after the meeting because I
had done AA NA actually thefirst time around.

(57:28):
So some seeds got planted andmy brain is made of concrete
layers and layers and layers andlayers of it.
So the seeds were planted inthat 120 days.
What I heard was get a sponsor.
That's the one thing I knewthat I needed to do that I

(57:52):
didn't do the first time around.
I didn't have a book or anythingeither.
But I didn't have a sponsor.
So I walked up to a guy and Isaid I need a sponsor.
He goes oh, men, don't sponsorwomen, I said.
I know.
I said I need help finding asponsor and it was an Alano club
, 24-hour Alano club in Portlandand Angels.

(58:13):
I had a friend of mine foryears and years and years took
me to this place.
Six months before I landedthere I had no idea it was an
Awano club.
He brought me there under thepretext of talking about
painting it.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
Oh, you got set up, I got set up.

Speaker 2 (58:32):
Right.

Speaker 1 (58:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:34):
And so when I walked through that door to go to my
first meeting.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
He was like Jack, I'm going to get you for this, and
he took me out into the mainroom.
Well, I grew up, I had peoplein my life that played cards,
played canasta, played pinochle,all that kind of stuff, and I
learned how to play those cardswhen I was a kid, those card
games.
And there was this woman withthese three guys sitting at the

(58:57):
table playing pinochle Partner,pinochle Partner, pinochle
Partner, pinochle Right, mm-hmm.
And I'm thinking this is goingto go over and talk ass.
I'm thinking there's nofreaking way she's playing
Pinochle and they're partners.
You don't get up in the middleof a game and go talk to
somebody you've never met.
That's exactly what she did,though.

(59:18):
She put her cards down, cameand talked to me.
They watched my daughter and wewent to her office, which was
her car in the parking lot, andI didn't know it at the time,
but we did the first three stepsright then and there really

(59:41):
because that's the way it wasdone.
There was none of this.
Well, we do step one.
30 days later we'll do step no,you do those first three right
as soon as you possibly can.
I didn't know it.
I mean we didn't do the thirdstep, prayer or anything, but we
really did go through the firstthree steps in her car and she

(01:00:02):
became my sponsor.
What?

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
was her name Char Char Charlotte.
Char.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
She had nine years when I came into the program and
we had our falling out, yeah,but I learned a lot from her.
When she passed away, herhusband at the time said is
there anything you want from herof hers?
And I said you know, a picturewould be nice.
But I said she gave me the bestgift she could give me.
Yeah, life, I already got it,got it Right, and he just looked

(01:00:35):
at me.

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
And I meant it and I still mean it.
She made me important andnobody had me.
That's so so important.
Dang it is, it really is.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
That really changed my whole life.

Speaker 1 (01:00:51):
That's good.
So I know there's been a lot ofdrinking in the family.
A lot of that, you family, alot of that.
You got it passed down to you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
Well, here's the interesting thing being adopted
and I do have my biologicalfamily.
Alcoholism is rampant, and sois mental illness in that family
, right, I mean one would hopethat if you give a child up,
their life's going to be better.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
No, that's not exactly how it works.

Speaker 2 (01:01:21):
That didn't work in mine at all.
Not at all.
There were a lot of parallelswhen I really didn't miss
anything.
Didn't miss anything other than, you know, having the brothers
and sisters.
I'm still in contact with myyoungest sister.
The brothers and sisters, yeah,um, I'm still in contact with

(01:01:44):
my youngest sister.
Uh, not on a regular basis, butyou know, I have her on
facebook and she has me and wereach out that way.
But, um, yeah, uh, yeah, naturenurture.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
I had both the um, with the, with the drinking.
It kind of led to some healthissues, like you're talking
about neuropathy, diabetes.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
Well, the diabetes is a totally different story.
I have peripheral neuropathyand that happened because of my
drinking.
I drank so much and really it'snot the amount that I drank,
but my body metabolizes alcoholdifferently.
Um, my daughter has fetalalcohol syndrome from my

(01:02:29):
drinking.
She's not the alcoholic andeven to this day, people think
when, when we say that it'sbecause she's drinking.
No, I drank, Um, and so she haslearning disabilities because
of that and some physicalabnormalities because of that,

(01:02:50):
yeah, so yeah, I burnt thenervings in my feet and legs and
developed feet and legs and anddeveloped.
I didn't have diabetes until 19.
No, 2006 I was diagnosed withdiabetes uh, which was stress
induced.
I got diabetes not because ofeating too much sugar, but from

(01:03:11):
stress really yeah that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
yeah, the job I don't Stresses.

Speaker 2 (01:03:17):
Oh, it's horrendous.
I had a client I did directcare and I was a medical
habilitations counselor in aresidence and I had an autistic
gentleman who stood 6'3",weighed well over 350 pounds,

(01:03:41):
autistic, non-verbal.
He would come home after workbecause he was in the sheltered
workshop program.
He'd get this far from me, frommy ear, and start yelling at me
and I would sometimes leave thehouse in the cloud.

(01:04:06):
I know for a fact that he putone worker in the grave.
Really, yeah Again.
Why would you let somebody thatbig bear hug you when you're
teeny tiny?
She was smaller than me, I mean, she was shorter than me and
she was tiny.
Wow, yeah, big bear hug youwhen you're teeny tiny.
She was smaller than me.
I mean, she was shorter than meand she was tiny.
Yeah, he bear hugged her and Ithink he bruised her heart

(01:04:28):
because she did die of heartfailure a few days later.
Wow, that's crazy, yeah.
And then another worker there.
She didn't get it either.
She let him hug her after that acouple of times and it's like
no, we're not supposed to dothis with him elbows, not

(01:04:50):
supposed to let him get in yourpersonal space because he was so
big and and he was a kid.
I mean, he was an autistic,developmentally delayed man who
had no idea how strong he wasJust like a little kid.
Yeah, and yeah.
Yeah, I've seen some prettystupid stuff from other people.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
I think the next segue is college.
Yeah, what are the colleges?
The steps to success,vocational rehab, right.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
So when I got sober I dropped out in the 10th grade.
Yes, I could read and write anddo arithmetic, all those things
.
I think I was anunder-challenged child.
Plus, I was a child who didn'tget any kind of positive
reinforcement for anything,definitely got lots of
reinforcement for doing thewrong thing, the wrong thing,

(01:05:44):
and that's what it led to.
I was just trying to getattention, just wanted to be
loved, but so I did treatment.
Treatment was the first thingI'd ever completed.
I was in a program that was along-term treatment nine months
to a year for women with theirkids the very first program in

(01:06:06):
Oregon that had that.
Now they're huge and they havea bigger building and stuff
that's awesome we started in anold Victorian.
it was in a Victorian house andI had a room on the third floor
with my daughter.
It was an amazing room with allits angles.
It was like living inside acrystal.
So I completed that and I wentin two days before Christmas

(01:06:30):
with my daughter in 1989 andgraduated March 1st of 1989 from
the program.

Speaker 1 (01:06:36):
Nice With your associates.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Spent my birthday, my 30th birthday in treatment
really yeah, that was not how Iplanned my 30th birthday to be.
Trust me, um.
Yeah.
No, it's supposed to be a blotanyway um so after that, uh, I
got into the program calledsteps to success, which was
started by president clinton.
It's one of his bills that gotpassed.

(01:07:02):
Agendas to get women offwelfare to break the cycle.
Yes.
And I had perfect attendance.
I did all the things you'resupposed to do.
I had a really good time and Isat down with a voc rehab
counselor and talked about whatI wanted.
I had been asked in treatmentby my alcohol and drug counselor

(01:07:27):
what I wanted to be and I saidto the counselor she says, well,
everybody in recovery wants tobe that and I said no, you don't
understand.
I wanted to be that.
Since I was 13 years old,promise I made God was if you
let me do this, promise meyou'll never let me sit across
from somebody and lie to them.
That's all I asked.
That's the only thing I wantedwas never to lie to somebody.

(01:07:49):
Because I've been there.
I know what it's like to havesomebody sit across from me and
tell me they understand me.
And oh darn well, they don'tthought it through.
And that's one of my biggestpet peeves Don't use that word
unless you've actually looked itup and know what it means.
That's like and I'm pretty vocalabout that with people,
especially on the phone andespecially people who are in the

(01:08:10):
helping profession.
They use that term.
I tune them right up.
Yeah, don't use that, becauseif you don't know what that word
means, then don't use it.
You don't have the right.
So I went through that programand sat with that vocational
rehab counselor and after 15minutes she looked at me and she

(01:08:33):
said I've never done thisbefore, but we're sending you to
college.
I had just gotten my GED, whichI did while I was in Steps to
Success.
The only thing I had to studyfor was the math test, the other
ones, all the pre-tests.
I.

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Got it Nailed it Nailed it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:51):
So it took two weeks of studying the math to get past
that.
My worst, yeah, I mean I gotone of the highest scores under
social studies and I didn't takesocial studies, didn't even
take the class Right in highschool Didn't even take the
class.
Most of them spent it down onthe hill.
Yeah, so I did that and went onto go to college.

(01:09:17):
They paid for my books,supplies and tuition.
For two years I was still onwelfare, so I got to go to
school and not have to work butgo to school, take care of my
kid, go to meetings and, yeah,it was an amazing experience.
I took a lot of classes at thetime.

(01:09:41):
I made both the deans and thepresidents, that's my
associate's degree.
My associate's degree is mentalhealth and human service, two
tracks, two focuses childadolescent treatment and alcohol
and drug counseling.
So and the only other track wasstraight psychology.
So it's the only one I did inthat.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
You're built for this to counsel, to help, to help
people.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
So then, after and in Mount Hood, I made both the
number 4-5 Theta Kappa it wasRho Theta Kappa, which was, you
know, things that I'd neverexperienced.
I didn't do prongs, I didn't doany of that.
And here I am, you know, 37years old, and our program had

(01:10:41):
the majority adults because wewere focused, we were a
vocational program, we were inallied health department at the
college kind of thing.
So, which was great, we did,you know, we learned about group
counseling.
We had a tragedy our secondyear.

(01:11:02):
One of our classmates committedsuicide and we were doing group
therapy classes at the time andthey were experimental, so we
were doing both being aparticipant and being a
facilitator and so we got toprocess that.
So that was interesting.

(01:11:25):
Interesting, yeah, and graduatedfrom there and then looked at
three different colleges to goon, three different universities
or four-year colleges to go toum.
I checked out Fox, which isvery Christian they would have
let me come right now programReed College, which is one of

(01:11:51):
the top colleges in the countryfor liberal arts, political
science, that kind of thing.
I ended up going to MerrillHearst because they had an art
therapy program, a master'sprogram, and that's where I
thought I was going to go.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
That would have been nice.
That's cool.

Speaker 2 (01:12:09):
My therapist that I had for the first three years of
my sobriety was an arttherapist.

Speaker 1 (01:12:13):
Really and I loved her.
That's awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:12:17):
So that's why I chose Merrill Hearst, because I
thought I would just dovetail.
Oh boy was I wrong.
It was a big deal to get intotheir program because it's the
only one in the United States atthe time.
That's amazing.
So I was going to focus onpsychology and art.
I've had no art classes in mylife.

(01:12:41):
I learned in doing that artpart that I have a depth
perception problem.
I cannot lay anything down oruse anything to make a straight
line.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
Really I can't, can't make a straight line.

Speaker 2 (01:12:57):
Nope, can't draw a straight line.
Can't cut a straight line.
Can't use a paper cutter andmake a straight line.
Can't make a straight line.
Nope, can't draw a straightline, can't cut a straight line.
Can't use a paper cutter andmake a straight line.
Can't use a sewing machine witha foot on it and sew a straight
line.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Just doesn't happen.
Abstract art, though, you don'treally need to.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Well, that's why you know I do poor painting and I
use stencils and I do.
I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:13:33):
No one's bought one of my paintings.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
She bought one of my paintings, love it.
So you know I learned a lotabout myself in that process,
because I couldn't draw a box inperspective.
We had weeping willow trees,which is my tree.
I have trees and rocks, folksTrees, rocks and feathers.
Trees, rocks and feathers.
Oh, and let us not forget sound.

(01:13:57):
I put that back on.
So, yeah, that was an amazingexperience In that I was at
Merrillhurst from 92 to 95.

(01:14:18):
To 95, and in that two years,not only did I learn a lot from
the classes I took and I got totake classes that I don't know
if any other colleges evenoffered I took things like
alternatives to medicine, whichwas the study of, not allopathy,

(01:14:39):
because that's our way, but alot of more herbalism, herbalism
, natural path healing on alllevels.
The teacher was a natural path.
She was wonderful.
She was amazing and, um, I hadalready learned how to do drums.

(01:14:59):
I pull hand drums.
I don't have them here, they'restill in Portland in storage.
This coming summer, I hope is mytrip to pick up my stuff All
this time my drums and my photoalbum is my adoption papers, my
dad's military pictures.
All of it is in this.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
It's important stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:15:19):
The Bible, that my sacreds and drums, those are the
most important things.
When we moved here, I camefirst and then my husband came
and the person that packed usthey packed my beaters and put
my drums in storage.

Speaker 1 (01:15:39):
They're still there killing.
They're still in storage.
My sacreds are still in storage.

Speaker 2 (01:15:40):
They're still there killing.
They're still in storage.
My sacreds are still in storage.

Speaker 1 (01:15:44):
And they're safe and sound.

Speaker 2 (01:15:45):
They're safe.
We pay every month.
I've been doing it for 13 yearsnow.
I would like to finally get myson.
I've been saving, so I'm hoping.

Speaker 1 (01:15:59):
Was that college experience for you?
Do you feel as if maybe youmissed out on like the high
school stuff and and, like yousaid, like the proms and
everything like that?
Was it like a new, like kind ofmaking up for a childhood in a
way yeah yeah um, because Ithink I came to college with

(01:16:20):
that.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
Because you know they say you are developmentally
delayed at the place you startdrinking.
So if you think back and when Ifinally, you know, realized
some stuff such as I had been mymother's drinking partner at
two, Set up analogy right there.
There are some substances thatshouldn't be given to children

(01:16:42):
before certain ages, and alcoholis one of them, Strawberries
before two, going on and on,Because it sets up an allergy.
The body's not ready tometabolize it because it's not
there yet, makes sense.
But alcohol also affects notonly your body but your brain
and your development.
And being a child withoutdirection, somebody to talk to,

(01:17:16):
somebody to teach me stuffinstead of do what I say and not
as I do, because that's what Igrew up with it, makes it really
hard.
A child has a really hard timenavigating the world and there
are stages and phases, you know,which I learned when I went to
college.
Some of it I kind ofintuitively knew, but you know

(01:17:40):
it brought things together.
When I got sober I had no ideahow to do a relationship.
All my relationships weretriangulated Because I didn't
know that you could have morethan one friend.
I didn't know that talkingabout this friend to this friend

(01:18:05):
was a bad thing, but it isright, just those kind of things
that you learn when you'reyoung.
You learn that stuff.
That's part of the going toschool and getting socialized is
that you learn that If yourdevelopment physically,
psychologically, developmentallyis interrupted during any of

(01:18:26):
those prime stages, there'sgoing to be some problems.
I have spent the majority of thelast 35 years trying to play
catch-up.
I have spent the majority ofthe last 35 years trying to play
catch up.
I can read, but my writing is alittle to be desired because I

(01:18:48):
missed all of that English stuffin high school.
Right, I don't learn aboutprepositions and run on
sentences and verbs and adverbs.
I didn't.
I mean, I got some basics inthe 7th and 8th grade, but I
didn't get any high schoolEnglish, so I didn't learn any
of that stuff.
So here I am in college,learning it, you know, taking

(01:19:08):
these classes, and what'sinteresting to me is that when I
tested for college, we just hadto take those dumb tests to
find out where you're supposedto be.
The lowest I got for Englishwas 115.
No.
Where are you supposed to be?
The lowest I got for Englishwas 115.
No, 120.
I started right at college leveleven though I had no high

(01:19:29):
school, but my first teacher,first instructor, he was a pain
in the ass.
I mean, he really was, but hewas right.
I wrote run-on sentences.
They were convoluted, they were, you know, didn't make sense.
My life didn't make sense yeahyeah no, that's a perfect way to
put it yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:50):
Nothing makes sense when your whole life doesn't
make sense exactly you'resupposed to do these little
things?

Speaker 2 (01:19:53):
right when I spent my whole life looking in everybody
else's windows but notrealizing what kind of work went
into what I was seeing yeah,what I thought were the perfect
families and the perfect livesand what it was supposed to look
like when you were growing upand we talked about.

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
You were trying to figure out who you were, but
through someone else's eyesalways yeah yeah, I, uh, I was a
good chameleon.

Speaker 2 (01:20:20):
I would be anything you wanted me to be if you'd
love me.
So most of the time, what I didwas out of love and wanting to
be loved.
Um, but you know, they saypeople will take your kindness,
naivety, and use it against you.
And yeah, even to this day, Istill get taken advantage of.

(01:20:44):
Yeah, and, but when I look atthe alternative, I'd have to be
cold.
And the first time I everexperienced a cold person I was
I, I was 17.
No, I was 19 and was working asa CNA back when you didn't have

(01:21:06):
to be certified.
Just a nursing assistant rightAfter my first husband and I and
I was working with a girl myage who had been doing it for
two years and my first day onthe job.

(01:21:27):
They were all in the break roommaking bets on who the next
resident was to die.
What?
And I went.
What?

Speaker 1 (01:21:36):
There's always like you know.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
They call it black humor, but when you're 19 and
she was just so whole, just theway she treated the residents
and stuff, and that was anotherone of those things I said to
God, don't let me be like thatdon't let me be like that, and
do you think that's somethingshe was born with or do you
think it was a cause of her?
I think it's the job caused itjob because she started when she

(01:22:07):
was like 17.
We were both 19, so yeah, Ithink after a while working in
that environment, and if she hadno skills, because I don't know
what her life was like, wenever got to be friends or
anything.
But that always has stayed withme Because I've worked in

(01:22:30):
residential facilities, I'vebeen a social service director
in a skilled facility, that kindof thing.
So, um, I'm grateful that I hadthe whereforeall at that age.
To, you know, even think likethat, that I don't want to be
like that, yeah, and to ask.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
I mean that's a crazy realization to make up that
answer, you know.
But yeah, those are twodifferent people Like that cold
and then I don't know.
But yeah, I get it.
Second degree master's couldn'tgo on.

Speaker 2 (01:23:08):
Right, I got my second degree.
I ended up changing my majorwhile I was working on my second
degree.
I was a college in art, and Itook a class that I'd already
done the work the book and theworkbook for, and I had already
discovered that I didn't want togo backwards.
And here was a class that I wasgoing to have to retake and I
thought, well, I'll go talk tothe professor and see if we can

(01:23:31):
figure out how this is going towork for me too.
Well, he didn't like that.
He wasn't willing to make anyconcessions or give me any
credit for past work.
And that's when I went hmm, Iguess this isn't it.
I went and talked to the chairof the interdisciplinary

(01:23:52):
department and also the chair ofphilosophy and changed my major
to interdisciplinary studies,given a lot of freedom, because
I got to design it.
I got to design how I wanted itto look and what I wanted to

(01:24:14):
learn, and I had my psychologycredits already from my
associate's degree.
I didn't really need any more,since that's really not going to
be my focus, it's just one ofthem.
And I already had art, which Iloved, and then I took
humanities, and that, for me,was the most spiritual healing

(01:24:41):
experience Because in thatprogram not only was I learning
all kinds of stuff and gettingto experience things, I was
provided with an education notonly within the institution I

(01:25:02):
was at but out in the world.
I got to volunteer at the veryfirst Body Mind Spirit event in
Portland and I watched thingshappen.

(01:25:22):
I was allowed to be present forthings that today, even if I
tell people I saw this, thisreally happened they look at me
like you're full of shit.
But you know, I watched a whitewoman receive eagle feathers
from one of the Northwest Coastchiefs.
That doesn't happen, folks.

(01:25:42):
The beginning of all that Imean that was the beginning of
all that stuff and it's gone on.
And I was fortunate enoughlater on to be able to go to one
in Los Angeles as a participantand not as somebody that was
working it, and that was amazingbecause I got to see some of

(01:26:03):
the people.
I'd read their stuff and I'dheard their talks and got to
actually see them in person wasan amazing experience, ram Dass
being one of them and I, youknow, in that time I learned how
to pull Native American handdrawings and what the Red Road

(01:26:25):
was about, and walking thatspiritual path and being
connected.
It was like being plugged backinto where I began that kid who
loved nature and would sit inthe driveway and pick up the
rocks and take them in the houseand clean them off and then
paint them with clear fingernailpolish to make them shiny,
because I didn't know how tomake them shine yeah

(01:26:47):
I just knew mom's clearfingernail polish was shiny, um,
and got connected back intothat and met people and had
experiences.
While I was going to school atmaryland these things were
happening in my life.
I became part of a communitythat was Red Road, spirituality
and recovery and we'd meet oncea year and sweat lodge and all

(01:27:12):
kinds of stuff on the Columbiaup on the gorge.
One of my favorite places inthe world is up on the gorge.

Speaker 1 (01:27:21):
Beautiful place.
So you're on your spiritualjourney right now.

Speaker 2 (01:27:30):
Yeah, not sure what that's going to look like.
Not sure what it looks like orif it's.
I know I'm here for a reason.

Speaker 1 (01:27:41):
What that reason is, I don't know, yet it's for a
reason, and I think we're allgoing to find out soon what
we're really here meant to befor.
You know what I mean, but youdefinitely have a purpose Even
just telling this story.
That's why I do this is becausethere's a lot of people,

(01:28:04):
there's a lot of little girls indifferent parts of the world
that if they listen to this andthey're going through the same
thing, it's going to hit homeand they're going to see she
made it through.

Speaker 2 (01:28:17):
I'm still standing.
I've been up here all this time.
You're still standing.
Yeah'm still standing.
I've been up for all this timeYou're still standing.
Yeah, still standing and stillcrazy and certified.
And I tell people that for areason, because I really do have
a letter from a psychiatristwho said that I'm crazy because
what's happened to me and thetruth about my life can't be
real.

Speaker 1 (01:28:36):
Yeah, Well, you're like the good kind of crazy.
That's what there is.
That that is, um, we're gonnado a little bit, I'm gonna a
little bit to finish off andthen I'm to ask a couple
questions.
Is that all right?
Okay, this will be like thelast kind of sad part, but this

(01:29:04):
is like fast forward to soonerCOVID Ah, covid 2019.
It was bad for a lot of peopleRight All over the world, but
you had something tragic happenfrom this, would you mind?

Speaker 2 (01:29:21):
Yeah, a lot of things happened when the pandemic hit.
Prior to the pandemic, my firstbud, my boyfriend, when he was
14 and he was 16, found me after30 years and reconnected with
me.
I also started graduate schoolat Walla Walla, so I was driving

(01:29:43):
to Billings once a week.
I had been asked to leave my jobthat I had had for four years,
which was like the longest jobI'd had ever in my life.
It was four years working in amental health facility and I was
working on my master's.
And Michael came back into mylife and, uh, I got to be 14

(01:30:04):
again.
Um, my husband knew about him,I mean because, um, I just don't
believe in keeping secrets,yeah and um, my husband and I
don't have a physicalrelationship and haven't been
for years.
We love each other.
We're not going anywhere.

(01:30:24):
We've been through so muchBecause he was actually he was
my second husband and he's myfourth husband.
So that's also something thatcan happen in recovery.
The family can be healed, yes,yes, and brought back together.
We were divorced for 12 years.
He had one child, I had theother.
We brought them back asteenagers.
There you go.
Yeah, we had a pretty good life, we were living.

(01:30:45):
I moved to his where he livedbecause he bought a house in
Southern California.
So we had that SouthernCalifornia kind of lifestyle for
about three or four years, butit made me really sick and we
had to move.
Yeah.
So back to Michael.
So Michael actually came andstayed with us, moved his stuff

(01:31:06):
from New Jersey all the way toMontana.
He'd been married for 38 years.
He was still married.
I was not leaving my husbandperiod and I needed a playmate
and I told my husband that thatthat's exactly what I needed and
what I wanted.
I was upfront and honest fromthe very start and my husband

(01:31:30):
went along with it and moneymoved in.
I'm thinking everything's cool,right.
So Michael was with us forabout 30 days and decided to
move home.
Yeah, but he was going to comeback.

Speaker 1 (01:31:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:44):
But he never came back.
Michael had been an open heart,had been a heart recipient, had
diabetes, had all theprecursors that you can imagine.
So he went back to New Jerseyand we talked every day, at

(01:32:04):
least once a day, if not more,and somehow he was having to
sleep sitting up and didn't feelgood.
His wife was a nurse.
All families are screwed up insome way or another just
remember that none's perfectanyway.

(01:32:25):
So, um, and she didn't go to hisdoctor's appointments with him
anymore and he went three timesa year, four times a year, twice
a year I guess.
He was down twice a year topennsylvania where he'd had his
heart.
His open heart surgery was inPennsylvania, so that's where
his team was.
And so he calls me and he's,he's now in Philadelphia and

(01:33:11):
Philadelphia and not doing sogood, and I knew the something
was wrong.
I didn't know what.
And the last time I talked tohim he said I was really tired
and they're gonna move me to adifferent unit where they know
how to take care of me.
Today I know that was the COVIDunit that he was moved to and he

(01:33:32):
visited me the day that hepassed.
He came to me in a dream, sowhen I got the phone call I
already knew that he was goneand yeah, and I still miss him,
but we weren't going to betogether.
What I also realized in a shorttime, just how different we

(01:34:00):
were.
Not just you know that we'dgrown up different or whatever,
but the way we saw the world.
It was so different it wouldn'thave worked?
Yeah, it would not have worked.
So you know, and again, again,being nice and naive, I uh, he

(01:34:23):
was working under the table andworking for this guy who he
needed to have a social securitynumber for him, and being who?
I am, and even talking to myhusband about it.
Before I did it, I let him usemy social security number.
Yeah, I'm still paying for that, but you know, life goes on.

(01:34:50):
I thought I was doing the rightthing.

Speaker 1 (01:34:55):
I mean you're trying to do the right thing.
Um he, I mean you're trying todo the right thing.

Speaker 2 (01:35:07):
He passed away and you get left with Dad's dead,
but it's not mine.
In another state, like thesegirls folks.

Speaker 1 (01:35:13):
That's crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
Yeah, but that's the kind of things that I've done
and I don't know if that'll everchange and I don't know if I
want it to change.
I don't want to become cold andI mean I'm already so skeptical
.
It's not funny.
It drives me nuts.
I told my therapist.
I said I can't believe howskeptical I'm getting at this

(01:35:36):
age.
She says it's not skeptic,you're not being a skeptic, it's
called wisdom oh, that'sprobably true.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
Uh, you know, trust, if, if, if, uh, like, if you
can't trust your parents, youcan't like like, if your whole
upbringing has no trust, like,how do you trust anybody, you
know, like in the future and Idon't know?
But I get what you're saying.
I, I can't be cold, I can't,you know, I I feel like
everybody deserves a chance anduh, and even if somebody is a

(01:36:07):
certain way or is labeled acertain way, I don't know what
that is until I meet it right,and then I can decide for myself
.
But I never judge a book by itscover.
You can't, I cannot, absolutelynot.

Speaker 2 (01:36:22):
Because you don't know what that person's going
through at that moment.
You know, and I know peoplethink I'm crazy and I am, and
I'm the crazy, weird woman wholives on the block.
And you know, I've been knownto do things like go out in my
nightie and tell people to getout of my damn driveway

(01:36:44):
Construction workers parking inmy driveway.
I've been known to go out in mynightclothes and bang on their
trucks Move this.
Who does this belong to?
So yeah, I'm also that person.
Some people think I'mhypercritical, which I can be.

(01:37:05):
I'm also a very generous person.
Mm-hmm, I see that.
And I don't want to beone-dimensional.
Mm-hmm.
You know, the only thing I knowtoday is that I have to learn
to love all parts of me in orderto be whole.

(01:37:26):
Good, bad and the ugly.

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
That's the key, right there.
That's the key.
You were saying somethingearlier about shame and Guilt.
Shame and guilt, shame andguilt.
It's not up to anybody else todecide that for you, right right
.

Speaker 2 (01:37:45):
They'll teach you about them.
You can be taught to be guilty,just like people aren't born to
be prejudiced, they're taughtit.
It's a poison.
It's a poison poisons our soul.
Um, I was adopted to save amarriage that couldn't be saved.
Well, if the Savior can't saveyou, who do you blame to save

(01:38:13):
you, the innocent?
And I mean, if Christians wouldjust read their freaking bibles
okay, uh, shane and gil boy,was that poured on him?
And we do it to each other?
Yeah, we do it to each otherabsolutely and I tried to never

(01:38:34):
all right, but I do.
I mean I, and I get so over,hyperhypercritical of, like my
husband, for instance.
I have a really weird positionhe's my husband but I'm also his
supervisor, okay, and myhusband has a form of dementia

(01:38:56):
to boot, right?
So I have all this educationand I've taken all these
trainings to deal with people indementia.
Do you think I can do it in myown life?
Hell, no, too close, too close,and I can buy into the guilt
and shame behind all that and Ican eat myself alive.

(01:39:19):
What I know is my husbandforgets really easy, and I'm
grateful for that, because I doknow what it is and how biting
and judgmental and critical andcontrolling and all of those

(01:39:44):
things.
I don't have to be that way allthe time, but there are times
when I am that way and and Ican't stop myself right now, I'm
at that place of awareness, butI haven't been able to move
from awareness to softening thatpart of myself.
Call it your shadow side,whatever you want to call it.

(01:40:06):
You've still got to face it.
You've still got to work withit and choose right.
It no longer has to control me.
I can now look at it and say,yes, I'm angry for this, this,
this, this and also be able togo back and apologize to
somebody when I have been wrongNot that I've been wrong, but
I've wronged me.

(01:40:26):
I've made me feel bad.
If I'm feeling bad because ofsomething I said to you, then I
probably have tried to make youfeel bad and it's not your fault
.
So learning to go back and saythat to somebody is what I've
been working on for the last sixmonths that's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:40:46):
We're all a work in progress that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:40:48):
That's it, you know, and we'll be done when we're
done and we don't know when thatis um, we're getting close
towards the end.

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
Um, so you take care of your disabled granddaughter
right now?
Yes, can you explain what'slife like with that?

Speaker 2 (01:41:07):
Oh, my goodness, Other trials and tribulations.
My granddaughters are bothmiracles and amazing.
They talk about losing whatit's like for a parent to lose a
grand, to lose a child.
They don't talk about what it'slike for a grandmother to lose

(01:41:30):
grandchildren.
I have six on the other sidewho never got to be there Really
, and then her little sisterwho's five years younger than

(01:41:51):
her.
They were both preemies.
This is just how different itcan be.
Tommy came at 31 weeks.
She was 2 pounds 7 ounces and14 inches long and looked like a
perfectly miniature baby.
I actually fought them whenthey tried to hook her up to

(01:42:13):
everything and put her in anincubator, which is not normal
for a preemie.
They're usually really docileNot Tommy, partially my fault,
because when she was in womb shetried to come early and I told
her she didn't have enough leadin her butt yet, so she sat in
the birth canal, really, yeah.

(01:42:36):
So she was in emergencyC-section and then Catherine
came at 29 weeks and six days,was in the NICU for three months
, hooked to all kinds of stuff,grateful she never had to have a
shunt.

(01:42:56):
She had a brain bleed all theway down to to the white matter
on one side of her brain.
She has cerebral palsy.
Dystonia is, I'm sure.
She's autistic, even though youcan't test her because she's
not verbal, does nothing, cannotdo anything for herself.

(01:43:22):
So her grandfather is herprimary caregiver and I am her
personal representative and herpayee and the person that
interfaces with all the agenciesand all that kind of stuff to
keep her healthy.
She is my heart.
She's amazing and she's inthere and anybody that doesn't

(01:43:46):
know she's in there she'll showyou and I've watched her do it.
She is still so connected.
She has a little sister andfive little brothers on either
side and we know that she goessomeplace with them.
We actually sat and watched herwhite socks on the bottom turn

(01:44:11):
black and the child came out andstayed.
She does not watch, she doesnot stand.
She's amazing and she, she'snot a stand, she's amazing.
She's named after my mother.
She carries my mother's firstname and my middle name.
She is amazing, special girl.

(01:44:35):
Yeah Right, as she gets olderand things are getting tougher,
we now have a suction machine inher bedroom and we're using
that more often than I wish.
Her scoliosis is so bad thather ribcage is turning in on her
vital organs.

(01:44:55):
The pandemic halted things thatcould have been beneficial for
her, like surgery, like yeah,probably did a lot of things for

(01:45:17):
you.
And because of where I live, Ican't get her.
Now that the pandemic's over.
I can't get what she needs.
I can't get her a hospital bed.
I am unable to get thingsbecause there's nobody that will
come do a home evaluation andthe people we deal with are in
buildings.

Speaker 4 (01:45:38):
So yeah, so you can't get a hospital bed.
Rule of America sucks you can'tget a hospital bed no, because
nobody will come to.

Speaker 2 (01:45:46):
No therapist or occupational or physical
therapist will come do a homeevaluation.
Why not?
because they don't do it here,they won't do it and nobody's
going to travel from buildings.
So, yeah, and nobody's going totravel from Billings.
So, yeah, living in ruralAmerica is very hard.

(01:46:13):
There's no programs for her, soshe's home.
Well, when she was going toschool, my husband got a little
bit of a break.
Yeah, you know, but there's nomore breaks and we can't even
get her chair fixed.
And they were supposed to setthat up because she's not having
the back surgery.
They were supposed to set upthe eval to get a new back on

(01:46:36):
her hair.
Yeah, and we're still waiting,really, because again, we're in
rural Montana, the powers thatbe are in Billings.

Speaker 1 (01:46:48):
There's got to be something that can be figured
out somehow.

Speaker 2 (01:46:50):
I'm figuring we're going to have to figure out how
to buy one ourselves.
I don't know where, how, butit'll happen.
It's just like our van.
When her van went down, thatwas scary.
We had no transportation forher for two months.
We just got it back last weekThank goodness for Psycho

(01:47:14):
Montana and the Logan Foundation, because they paid to fix it.

Speaker 1 (01:47:18):
Thank you to those programs.

Speaker 2 (01:47:22):
Yes, and they don't usually do repairs like that.
They'll help you get a vehicleor a wheelchair or a scooter.

Speaker 1 (01:47:27):
Yeah, but they had never paid for repair on a van
before I mean, I have so manyplans and future plans, as you
know you talked about earlier.
But that was kind of the wholepoint of me doing this is, you
know there is no income fromthis yet.
You know there are no donationsto this yet.

(01:47:49):
But that's why I've beenworking so hard at this to show
people that this is what I wantto do.
I want to help people and Iwant to be in a position so this
is the exact story that needshelp.
You know, things like that,like it may not be a lot for
someone, but for you to get thatfixed or that hospital, that is

(01:48:12):
everything.
For her.
For her, it's everything.

Speaker 2 (01:48:16):
It is.
It's like this year I got her anew TV, finally, and I got her
a stand so we can move it aroundher room and she can actually,
you know, because we don't knowher spatial distance, we don't
know how far away she can see.
She's a miracle child to beginwith.

(01:48:36):
When she came home she came toour house and and her parents,
um, and we had tommy um, shecouldn't see.
She said she was blind,couldn't hear, so she was deaf,

(01:49:07):
couldn't hear, so she was deaf.
And we took her to Shriners inPortland and they did a surgery.
They did an abductor releaseearlier than he'd ever done one
on any child.
He did one on her.
The day after her surgery hewalked into her room and walked
out because he thought it was inthe wrong child's room.
She was an infant.

(01:49:30):
We could open her legs thatmuch.
So all her diapers were liketwo and three sizes too big, so
we could, you know, get them onher and he came in the next day
and she was like this and hereally thought he'd come.
He'd been in the wrong room.
My daughter actually had to runafter him to let him know he was
in the right room and mydaughter called him get her home

(01:49:54):
from the hospital.
She's there living on their own.
Now they have their own placeand my daughter calls me in
hysteric.
She's hysterical and I'm likewhat the heck?
And it wasn't a bad hysterics.
She was hysterical because shehad slammed the cupboard door in
the kitchen and Catherine hadheard it in the living room and

(01:50:20):
started laughing.
And started laughing.
She didn't like hearing aids,so that was good.
Now we didn't have to worryabout those.
And then we noticed she couldsee better.
So that did that.
But I mean all along.
It's kind of like she was bornwith what's called Bell's Palsy.

(01:50:42):
Yes.
Not a lot of people know aboutBell's palsy, where she was just
stuck, stuck, stuck, stuck,stuck, stuck, and that released.
What they said was her tone isso high.
All her brain could focus onwas her tone, so nothing else
worked.
That's all her brain could do,you know, was working against

(01:51:05):
that tone.
And so that happened.
And, little by little, thingshave happened over the years.
But that was the first miraclewith her was the fact that she
could now hear, and theycouldn't explain that.
That's amazing.
Yeah, so we know she hears andshe laughs and she's got one
hell of a sense of humor and shedoes say words and she is one

(01:51:28):
of the most determined childrenI've ever met.
When she was an infant I'd layher in one, you know, just up
top in her crib, at the top ofthe crib, put her to bed.
I'd come in in the morning andher face on one side would be
this big red spot.
I caught her.
She was crawling by, using herface to pull her along.

(01:51:58):
I've watched her mess withnurses in the hospital.
The last time we were there, wewere there, for I've walked to
mess with nurses in the hospital.
The last time we were there, wewere there for 10 days.
Thank goodness it's been threeyears.
Thank you God.
Wow, she can make herselftremor so people think she's

(01:52:23):
having a seizure.
She can slow her breath down soit looks like she's not
breathing.
She can slow her breath down soit looks like she's not
breathing.
She can slow her heart ratedown.
It'll set off the monitor.
Oh yeah, she's a little shitshe is.
I love her to pieces, but she'sa little.
She's in there, see she gotthis nurse right.
The first time the nurse comesin and I explained to the nurse
that this is who she is and thisis what she does.

(01:52:44):
They don't believe me Right,which is not unusual.
Lots of times people just don'tbelieve me.
Sure enough, she did it so goodthat she got the monitor to go
off.
This nurse was running in apush for the crash cart.
My granddaughter looks at herand starts laughing.
I said I told you that's so bad.

(01:53:06):
She's amazing, she's amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
Miracle baby.
Well, I hope I get a chance tomeet her.
That'd be awesome.
She's awesome, that is amazing.
I will just, I, just I justwant to say thank you for doing
this thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:53:29):
Nobody's ever wanted to talk to me before no, we'll
thank Marcy, marcy.

Speaker 1 (01:53:38):
Marcy is the one that said you gotta talk to her.
She's an amazing woman andshe's right.
So yeah, marcy's the one thatsaid you got to talk to her.
She's an amazing woman andshe's right.
So I just want to say thank youso much, donna, for doing this.
It means the world to me andyou have a purpose for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:53:58):
You're going to heal with these crystals.
Yeah, they're just conduits.
They're just conduits.

Speaker 1 (01:54:02):
Yes, conduits, um, yeah, um, but before we go, um,
this is your chance to to, uh,to tell whoever, um, or whoever
out there, uh, you know, youknow your final thoughts.
Yeah, you know what you believein, what, what, what you know
what you know what your truth is, um, what you want the world to

(01:54:25):
know about you, or or anythinglike that.
This is now your chance Now isyour chance.
This whole thing kind ofrevolves around mental health
for me, right, and I know you'vegone through psychology courses
and and and art courses inorder to to help understand this

(01:54:47):
better.
So, with with all that beingsaid, what do you have to say
about, um, you know, mentalhealth and society and and all
of the above?

Speaker 2 (01:54:57):
first of all, it's all an illusion, folks.
Um, they just made it moredifficult to be able to see
what's real and what's not.
What's real is you, are what'sinside of you.
The only real thing in life islove In all.
It's me.

(01:55:17):
Guys, I don't know much, but Ido know that there's a power
greater than me, and I knowtoday that it's not the outside
of another human being, but it'sthat meeting of spirit.
Just don't close yourself off,which is really easy to do.

(01:55:41):
I know I'm an isolationist.
Don't close yourself off, whichis really easy to do.
I know I'm an isolationist.
Don't do that.
That's not good for your mentalhealth.
We are social creatures.
We do need each other and itdoes get scary, especially when
you've been hurt a lot on alllevels and I've been abused on

(01:56:03):
every level.
We are fourfold beings, fourcorners, four directions.
We are fourfold inside of onething.
That's what it's called A body,and there is nothing so bad

(01:56:30):
that you ever need to end it all.
It might feel that way, beenthere, and it is always darkest
before the dawn, and the sunwill come up tomorrow.
All those trite things.

(01:56:53):
I use them today to propel meforward.
I know there's nothing backthere for me and I don't know
what's up there.
So really all we've got isright now.
So be kind to yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:57:10):
I'm not always kind to me, but please be kind to
yourself, donna.
Thanks, andy, thank you so muchand thank you all for watching
and you're gonna digest the mostbeautiful story you've heard in
a while, and yeah, I want tosay thank you, everybody, and
we'll see you later.
Bye.

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Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 19 | Donna Daniel

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Hanging with Humans Podcast | Episode 19 | Donna Daniel