August 30, 2025 • 46 mins
My Pre-Interview Process
A day before—sometimes the day of—the podcast, I carve out several hours to sit with my guest in complete intimacy. No cameras, no microphones, just my notebook and two humans sharing a space. With nothing but curiosity and a pen, I guide my guest through their story, capturing the raw details that will become our roadmap. We explore the emotional landscape, identify the moments that changed everything, and uncover the universal truths hidden within their personal journey.
Some of the most profound conversations of my life have emerged from these sessions. There's something sacred about this process to me—the trust a human places in me to handle their story with care, the vulnerability required to excavate painful memories, the honor of witnessing someone's truth unfold in real time.
I'm endlessly grateful for the souls that let me capture their stories.
Decade-Long Fight for Freedom
What happens when the system designed to protect us becomes the very thing that destroys us?
Thomas Egbert was 21 years old—a certified mechanic with no criminal history and everything to live for—when he was sentenced to 20 years for a crime he didn't commit. While the actual shooter walked away with a six-year plea deal and surving three. Thomas found himself facing two decades in maximum security hell.
For seven brutal years, he navigated the razor's edge of a level-four prison yard. Racial riots. Daily violence. The systematic stripping away of hope. All while his young children grew up without their father.
But Thomas refused to surrender.
In the darkest corners of that concrete tomb, he found unlikely mentors—lifers who pointed him toward the prison law library with words that would change everything: "Nobody's going to get you out of here but yourself."
For years, Thomas became his own lawyer, studying case law by day and dodging violence by night. Appeal after appeal, motion after motion, until finally—after serving over ten years for someone else's crime—his conviction was overturned.
But perhaps the most remarkable twist was yet to come. While Thomas fought for his freedom, his first love discovered his name while working as a child support enforcement officer. She wrote. She waited. She believed. Today, they're building the life that was stolen from them.
Have you ever wondered how someone survives losing everything unjustly and still finds the strength to rebuild?
Listen to this raw, unflinching journey through our broken justice system—and proof that even in our darkest moments, hope can find a way to survive.
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In honor of those who served our country. During times of peace and war. Those who gave the supreme sacrifice, Those still missing and those who came home both whole and broken.
In honor of those still fighting everyday to keep their head above water.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
and more like taxing on the mental health, I feel
like, than being incarcerated,you know and uh.
So I'm excited to kind of diveinto that and learn about that a
little bit and learning moreabout your, uh, your past and
just you know, we've beenfriends for a while, bro, yeah,
(00:23):
Excuse me, excuse me All right.
So we'll start with how old areyou?
55.
You look young.
Thank you, tom.
What's your middle and last J?
Tom J, it's actually Thomas.
(00:44):
You want Tom or Thomas, itdon't matter to me, t-o-m-a-s or
T-H-O-M-A-S.
T-h Sounds very professional.
Thomas J Egbert Mm-hmm.
You were born where.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Flagstaff, Arizona, 1970.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
October 14th 14th, all right.
So kind of what I do is makelike a little roadmap of your
life, of the things we're goingto talk about, and then I can
navigate the conversation andknow when to go and to win.
So it's kind of inchronological order, like from
(01:29):
when you were born, where you'reborn to where we're at now, but
between all of that, which thebeginning is when you were born
and then we're in the present,right now, think of three major
life events or chapters ormoments that shifted the course
of your life, changed thedirection of your life or
(01:51):
changed the whole way.
You even think it could besomething good, it could be
something traumatic, it could bewhatever, but life-altering
events usually change the courseof our lives, whether it's for
good or bad.
What can you think of?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I was born in Flagstaff.
We moved to Winslow.
That's where I grew up Winslow,Arizona.
Okay, had a pretty goodchildhood, up until six years
old probably.
My dad was a major alcoholic,just a mean man.
One of my sisters got killed ina vehicle accident.
(02:28):
The driver was my other oldersister's.
I'm not Hi, you can speak huhyeah, of course he's doing us a
YouTube video, so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, we got time.
We're just doing thepre-interview process though.
Hi, yeah, yeah, of course.
Do you.
You like bigger teas up here?
You can bring them over here.
Thank you so much.
Yes, thanks, I appreciate it.
I like your, john ellie,there's a great thank you I'm
sorry.
I was nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you, rj.
I live in colorado too, sothat's why I was like, yeah, but
(03:03):
I used to live here and I usedto work with him all the time.
I've only heard really goodthings about you.
He really seems to like you alot, which is rare.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You don't find too many real people.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
You don't.
You really don't find too manygood friends that just you get
along with and you're there foreach other when you need each
other.
It's rare.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
She is one of the good moments of my life that
will come later.
Yeah, the good parts.
Yeah, the good parts.
I'll tell them a story about mylife from when I grew up and
everything oh yeah, it's a longstory yeah, get down, dude, get
down.
Yeah, you don't need to be inthe lap, look comfortable.
Yes, thank you.
You look good to everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Anyway, thank you, honey.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
And this tea's amazing too, bythe way.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, it is, I'm going to grow some of those pork
chops here in a little while.
Do you want any?
Sure, you can do that.
Maybe some of them mashedpotatoes that we got in there.
You want some the mince?
What about?
Guys know this yeah we're goingthat's what we do with Portal
Talk just a minute, That'd befantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, thank you so much.
So anyway, your sister passedaway.
She got into a car wreck.
Who was she driving?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
This guy's name is David Anaya.
He's my brother-in-law.
Now he's married to my othersister.
He was the one driving.
They were all together and theclub you know, on anything
partying.
She had this one.
She was high into rodeo, horses, everything.
Well, yeah, she wanted a bunchof ribbons at night.
Oh hell, yeah, she was the onlyone ejected from a road vehicle
and she done it.
And just not too long ago Ifound out that, uh, my sister,
(04:41):
her older sister, my, my oldersister they actually left her
there on the ground for like 45minutes Because they were all
drinking and she was worriedabout going to jail, getting
caught.
That's funny.
So she died and that changedthe course of our whole family.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
How old was she at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
She was 15 years old, 15?
.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yes, tony, I didn't know that.
T-o-n-i like tony, tony, tony,help.
Uh man, and you were?
How old?
You were six when that happened, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
so she's only a couple yearsolder than me that's what I'm
gonna call her man.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
she was a great sister.
How many other brothers andsisters I have?
Two old.
I have one younger brother andone older brother, and me and my
older brother have never,really ever got along well.
No, no, me and my youngerbrother we had a great.
But my older brother, when wewere growing up and went along,
I was the youngest of the crewand we hung out with guys that
(05:39):
were way older than us, you know, and I was always the guinea
pig for everything.
Yeah, that's right, you know itwasn't like that, but it just
made me go fight people on thestreet.
It was rough.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Because they're older , they can kind of you know.
Yeah, they were boys, they were.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They were bulldogging .
So when my sister died, Ifinally moved back to Flagstaff
and the things just continued toget worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So that was from your younger years.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They're getting worse through your teen years, so
from around seven years old, wemoved back to Flagstaff Arizona.
My dad, my mom, my older sister, of course, my brothers and we
started going to school andstuff there and my dad would
continue to drink, come homedrunk all the time, just beating
(06:33):
people up, including me and youknow, my mom, yeah, so my mom
packed us all up when I wasactually.
I met her in Flagstaff when Iwas 12 years old what you know
and we took each other'svirginity.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What Really, yeah Damn Hell of years ago.
That's crazy.
It is crazy.
What yeah that's?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
awesome.
And then we got separated whenmy mom put us all in a van and
drove us all to Texas and SantaFe, texas, and you know.
So I went to school in Santa Feand I hated school.
I did school.
But I met this old mechanic, rj, and let me tell you, I did
school every day from seventhgrade, all the way until I
(07:15):
didn't go to school.
Cops were getting involved, yeah, but this man taught me how to
be a mechanic and he taught meeverything.
He taught me how to weld, hetaught me how to paint, he
taught me how to build engines,he taught me how to do
everything, everything.
And let me go in this big-assjunkyard he had and said pick
any car you want out there andyou're going to build it here in
(07:35):
this shop.
What I picked?
A 67 Camaro SS, nice.
It had no motor room, no junk,yeah, restored it completely,
100% Paint, brand new,everything Myself, yeah, all by
myself, young too.
Within one year, dang.
And he paid for all it.
And my mom found out I was justin school for a year, for a year
(07:56):
, and she sold it.
She took it from me.
Oh, she sold this car to me,dang.
They sold this car to him.
So that started a bad thing forme and my mom, but I love my
mom, she's awesome.
She still lives in Texas.
Man, yeah, you guys are coolnow.
So about that, oh yeah, we'vealways been cool.
So that was about the age of 14or 15 years old I was at that
time, yeah.
(08:17):
And then from there I movedback to Phoenix and I went to a
mechanics school, a trade school, oh, pit, phoenix Institute of
Technology, okay, and Igraduated for precision power,
train and chassis all AAAcertified mechanic, nice.
(08:41):
And then from there that was ayear.
I did that a year.
So then after that, about thattime, I had a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh no, malfunction, malfunction.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, it's a woman.
Let's see if we got it's justlater.
Yes, it should.
Let's turn that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I think we're back a bit.
Where were you?
The Phoenix Institute?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, from there I graduated, uh, certified
mechanic.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Chassis.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Precision power train the chassis.
I cover everything on thevehicle, from the frame, from
the tires all the way up througheverything.
Oh shit, I know.
So I moved back to Winslow,arizona.
I was about 19, 19 or 20 at thetime when I graduated Mm-hmm.
Then 19, 19 or 20.
At the time when I graduatedMm-hmm, I started working for a
Ford dealership as a medicalpeople Mortgage for a while.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, oh, it's in the Cigar.
Yeah, yes.
My dad was a Cigar, because Idon't know why he needs to stay
in the back part, but it don'twork though, because it's got
the wet thing on it thing on it.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That should definitely be off.
You can move that to a bar orwhatever you want.
You got to break out some ofthese brother.
Which ones these yeah what?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I got them just for this special occasion.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And I'm happy to give my story to you.
By no means you know.
There's a whole bunch of otherstuff that went down when I went
to Texas.
Dude, dude, I used to racesupercross, uh, two-stroke dirt
bikes, 125, really, yeah, andrace in miami.
Rick raced in miami, florida,at daytona, uh, fort lauderdale
(10:56):
beach.
I raced in houston, texas, thehouston astrodome.
I raced in phoenix, phoenix,arizona, in the Coliseum, 125
class, cc, yz 125, 1985 modelYamaha.
Yes, sir, yz.
Well, I was brutal, no fear,nothing ripping at me no fear
(11:19):
over them?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So you're doing that Ford dealership?
Is that around the same time aseverything that's way before,
oh, way before?
So you're doing that Forddealership?
Is that around the same time aseverything that's way before,
oh, way before?
I didn't know All right.
So what were you doing whileyou were working at the Ford?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
dealership Lead mechanic.
Lead mechanic Nice.
I was a very young one, I was20 years old.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Damn, that's tight, you're the big dog I was, so
you're obsessed with it.
Do you really love what you'redoing?
Do you still love doing that,oh?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love it.
I just love to find thesmallest vehicles I can get and
put the biggest motors I canfind and make hot rods Nice, I
like the old-school lawnmowerriding, sit-down ones, but with
some motor on it.
Those, are the next ones.
I have one in the backyardwhere I'm going to make one.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I have.
That's where.
Um yeah, so you're the leadmechanic.
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
around the brand is that delicious they are, thank
you.
At that time I was not working.
Well, I was making great money,I don't know.
But the lifestyle in windsor,where I was on, there's nothing
but drugs and alcohol already,poverty and all that kind of
stuff, and that's what I wasdoing.
Why didn't it work?
Why is it like that?
Because there's nothing else todo.
(12:34):
That, bro, it's just a smalltown.
There ain't no shopping centers, there ain't no malls, there
ain't no, there ain't nothing.
It's just a town.
You know some businesses.
The railroad pretty much ran it.
You know what I mean?
Route 66, that's right throughWinslow, oh, really, yeah.
And my dad actually owned aTexaco gas station when I was
(12:55):
young, the only major servicestation in that town at the time
.
Really, everybody was afraid ofmy dad, dude, everybody.
He was a mean dude?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Oh yeah, he told me he beat everybody up, including
you.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know he used to take us dove hunting.
He caught us and put us throughhunter safety courses and stuff
.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We'd go dove hunting and deer hunting, elk hunting.
You know, every time we'd getdrawn, he'd get drawn, whatever.
But he just had a majordrinking problem and I really
can't blame him now, because nowI know that his father was way
worse on him, man straight up.
So me and my dad are cool atthis point, yeah, we're good.
You start to understand as youget older and you become an
(13:31):
adult and I don't have no hatetowards nobody, you know what I
mean, right.
But when I'm working in this,this is where it gets even much
worse for me.
I've been working for adealership for a year, yeah, and
I had got drawn for gear thatyear and I had a friend by the
name of david chavez, you know,my two other other brothers also
(13:56):
had got drawn.
Well, that gone for the samearea, but we only had one rifle
that my dad had left us and thenso my older brother had it and
they were out in the woods.
So I got off of work that nightdude, it was a Friday night.
I got off of work, went andpicked up my homeboy and his dad
(14:16):
had had a .30-06 rifle thatbelonged to his son so we could
go hunting, had to tageverything.
Everything was all legit,mm-hmm.
So we go hunting from his dad'shouse to Walmart to buy some
shells forit.
And I came around this cornerand there was two dudes standing
on the corner right there and Iknew who both of them were.
(14:37):
I didn't really associate withthem but, yeah, they knew who I
was under them.
Just what one of them wasrelated to the dude that's with
me.
Yeah, the guy that's with mesaid he's hunted all down in the
past.
He sees a car Don't stop, don'tstop, don't stop.
The car, yeah, pimping on him.
Yeah, stopped right in themiddle of the street, mm-hmm,
(14:58):
and he's related to him.
Yeah, he has a big old rockwire on the chain with a leash.
So he takes the side of the carand the other guy comes up to
my side of the car and says man,thomas is probably just leaving
(15:19):
.
Why, I'm not afraid of nobody,dude, yep.
So dude walks around the sideof the car and punches the dude
right in the face with the chainwrapper, splits his whole face
wide open, bleeding all over theplace.
Dude, yeah, the guy didn't wantto get smoked.
He's the one who just punchedright in the face from the other
dude that walkedright.
(15:39):
He said their first cousins,over some kind of deal that went
bad on them.
A drug dealer went bad on them,I don't know when, but it hit
on bad, so okay, and then he offwalking.
It was like a low-incomeproject, low place, is it?
They were two.
They were going to do thehitting with that, yeah.
So I looked at the passenger oh, my Dude, you got to handle
(16:02):
that, bro.
You can't just let this dudehit you in the face like that.
I do not do that Right.
He had no heart, brother, and Ihad always looked out for him
in the past.
Yep, yep, yep, I see.
So the dude went away and Isaid hey, you fucking, you're
going to do that shit to me, andin that amount of time.
(16:22):
Well, this rifle's sittingright in the, you know, in the
console of my truck.
Yeah, I'm looking at this newtalk of shit.
He wouldn't come back to theporch.
This jackass passenger that'swith me pulled the rifle up,
dude, and fires it right infront of my face and he hit a
window in the dude's apartmentand went out the roof.
(16:42):
Damn.
I got charged with two countsof first-degree attempted murder
, premeditated two counts ofaggravated assault premeditated.
Two counts of endangermentpremeditated put me in jail.
I was in the Navajo County Jailfor a year.
I got bonded out and I refusedto take a plea bargain because I
(17:07):
didn't do nothing, man.
I didn't fire no gun.
I never wanted no gun to befired.
You know that's what happenedfor real, yeah, yeah.
So the guy who shot the gun wasa month past him.
Yep, yep.
They gave him six years.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He took a plea bargain for six years.
Did they say that he pulled thetrigger and not you?
He came and testified at amonth trial.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
He came and testified at my trial and so when I went
to trial, I lost and I had themost jackass attorney you could
ever think of.
They used my mom as theinvestigator for their law firm
Phillips Associates out ofPhoenix, arizona.
She has no experience in beingan investigator nothing, hardly,
none.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Well, I went to trial , I lost lost.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
They gave me 20 years in prison and your mind is on
that, like she had to do she.
How was she part of the court?
My attorney that my mom hiredfor us had a phoenix called
phoenix and phillips andassociates law firm.
She hired them to come andrepresent me and they introduced
my mom as their leadinvestigator for their law firm.
How that's even legal, I don'teven know.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, that's like conflict of interest.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, that's crazy.
So anyway, he was horrible.
Yeah, he did horrible in thetrial, mm-hmm, the witnesses
came in.
The dude that punched the guyin the face said that he watched
me help put my hand on thebarrel to help him aim the gun
at him.
What the For real In thetranscripts, rd, what yeah?
(18:38):
And I was like, wow, I can'teven believe it.
Somebody would even say that Imean, that's a deer rifle dude,
yeah, with a scope on it.
That don't make any sense.
Why would I grab the end of thebarrel?
And I'm not even looking.
The dude didn't even put it onhis shoulder, he just pulled it
Boom.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
To help him do what.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I hope that's what they testified to.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And he still lost.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I lost and I went to President Brown and they gave me
a long time.
I did many, many years and Ifiled appeals because I had all
my rights still and you didn'tdo it and I won After ten and a
half years already being inprison.
That's just how long it took meto go through the nine-second
court of appeals.
I went back and they remandedit back to the 17th court in
(19:28):
Navajo County and the judge saysyou know?
I went back and then remandedit back to the 17th court in
Navajo County and the judge saysyou know, this is the only
thing I can do.
She said we can either startfrom square one and back it up
Go, come here, come here.
We can either start from squareone, start your whole bond,
(19:49):
your whole card, all the wayover.
She said, or I can drop it tothe super mitigated sentence and
you'll be out.
And for you, I said.
I said, okay, we'll do that.
Well, at that time I think I hadalready been in prison.
It was either 12 and a halfyears or something.
It was either 12 and a halfyears or something, so it was
(20:11):
like 12 and a half years.
So I had to do four more yearsand I got released.
And they actually released metwo years earlier than that.
Oh, that's for good behavior inprison, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
doing all the programming andall that stuff.
So I actually got out, but Istill did a long time in prison
for absolutely nothing.
I didn't touch nobody, I didn'tshoot no gun.
(20:34):
I did nothing.
You know, you really didn't donothing.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I didn't hope, I swear I did nothing at all and
you've never been in any trouble, like you know that nothing
straight prison straight toprison.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So when you go to prison I'm sure you may know
that you know different stateshave different things.
So whatever your sentence isyou're going to do, I had to do
65 of my sentence at that time.
Yeah, so that's why I got.
You know, they gave me a 20 anda half year sentence but I got
out and so they take 65 of it.
Then I for good behavior andall that stuff.
It just continued to drop itdown more and more and more.
(21:08):
How did you know you had, likethe option?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
to go to court and all that stuff.
It just continued to drop itdown more and more and more.
How did you know you had, like,the option to go to court and
do that and was there like alibrary thing?
Did you have to go learn thelaw?
Did you have to study for allthat?
Yeah, how did that?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
work.
When I hit the yard, I hit amaximum security prison yard,
level four in Phillipsburg,aryan Brotherhood, all the gangs
, all of that shit, Everybody.
Yeah, and I'm a straight fish,as they call it.
When you first hit a prisonyard Brand new, yeah, on a level
four yard you get wrecked threetimes a week.
Uh-huh, you get a shower threetimes a week and that's it.
(21:43):
That's it.
You go to the, you're in a cellwith another dude and violence
every single day, and I didseven years on that yard.
Seven years, seven years.
Yeah, I got a GED, though Iworked in the kitchen, got a job
working in the kitchen and Iworked in the rec department.
(22:05):
So I was better in my life.
The opportunities you had, youtook them, but I still got
connected to the people I neededto for survival.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Because you have to pick.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Mama, get in right, you have to.
If you don't, you can eitherdie, yeah, or you're going to go
to protective custody, you know, or something like whatever.
They offer people to do that,and people in protective custody
, they don't have a good life inprison, bro, yeah, ever, yeah.
So I did what I had to do, rj.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, that's what I did.
Yeah, for my own reasons.
(22:38):
You know what I mean?
Stay alive, yeah, hey.
And I tell you, a lot of peopletalk about AB being the most
notorious killers in the world,and some may be, but two of them
that I met in there, they tookcare of me.
One of them taught me there wasa law library there.
I signed up for it.
(22:58):
I went in there and he said I'mgoing to show you where the
books are.
I'm going to show you whatbooks you need.
She said you're going to sitdown here?
She said, because nobody'sgoing to get you out of here but
yourself, tom.
You read these books.
You come in this law library,don't go to the gym and all that
stuff.
You come in here, you study thecase, you file your own stuff,
and I did and my case wasoverturned Damn that's amazing,
(23:23):
that's cool, like on him, though, after seven years, though I
was fighting it, bro, it took methat long.
They kept kicking it back.
They kept because I emotionsweren't filed right.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
It always has to be Alwayssomething like that, always.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I watched like there's YouTube videos where
they're showing a guy who's beenin for a bunch of years and
they're, like you know, goingthrough the interview If they're
going to release you early,parole thing and they're so like
unfazed by it at that pointbecause they've been in so long
that they're like not cateringto their institution.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
you know, once you get to that stage, you have
adjusted to living in prison.
That's after so many years.
And I did the same thing.
I made a routine, I worked out.
You know I did everything, allthe classes, I went to church.
You know I did everything Ineeded to do to get.
(24:20):
You know, keep myself on thestraight path.
Yep, but keep in mind I didn'tdeserve to be in prison, man.
Yeah, at all beginning.
And I went through three major,major riots, really yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
People were dying Blood air just smoke bombs all
that yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Tear gas National Guard shooting concussion bombs,
shooting shotgun bombs,shooting rubber balls, rubber
ones.
Yeah, you ever been in one ofthem.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I haven't, but I know they fuck people up.
They hurt yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
They do not feel good , though Not bad.
Strip you all down and come inand strip your whole self.
No blankets, no sheets, you'rein your box and we were
handcuffed face down.
We were handcuffed face down,hog tied in the dirt on the
Redfield for like 15 hours.
Dude, ants and shit crawling onus, and as you moved they had
dudes in gun towers all aroundthe prison yard and it was a big
(25:16):
old, loud microphone.
If you move, the next roundwill be live and you will die.
Three of those I went to.
Racial wars in between it wascrazy, bro.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
racial wars in between.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was crazy,bro.
What was the like?
Biggest like had the most beefrivalries between, like the
different gangs or races.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
It was usually always the whites against the blacks.
Very seldom it was the whitesagainst the Mexicans.
And then you know the Indiannation.
We never had issues with them.
So it was usually the whitesagainst the blacks.
And then the Mex nation.
We never had issues with them.
So it was usually the whiteswould get to black and then the
Mexicans would always jump rightin with us and it was
devastating on the black people.
They would be stuck in razorwires trying to get away from
good.
(26:00):
It was 15 to 1 racial bro.
Really, yeah, easy, maybe more.
A lot of Mexicans and a lot ofwhite people, a lot of white
people, a lot of white people.
Dang.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I can imagine.
Do you, at this age and whereyou're at in life and everything
you've gone through, have youbeen able to like look back at
those times or those chapters ofyour life to like really soak
it in and be like man?
I really went through that or Icould have really not made it
through that if this or thischanged and really like
reflected on it.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
You know, what I went through already was devastating
, you know, and it wasn't aboutI wasn't worried about being
able to handle myself in prison.
It was a simple fact that I wasyanked away from my two boys,
who were very young at the time,and the wife I had before her,
(26:56):
you know, just stripped my wholelife away from me.
That's devastating on a person,you know.
Yeah, it's a problem, but youknow, I'm a survivor and I got a
good heart, you know, and I, uh, but you know, I still I'm a
survivor and I I got a goodheart, you know, and I made it
through it.
After all them here, I made itthrough everything.
And even though I haven't seenmy youngest son for almost 20
(27:18):
years, you know, I still lovehim and everything, but he don't
even work.
He was, he was just a baby dudein diapers when I got taken
away.
Yeah, but my oldest boy, Istill talk to him all the time,
so it's all good there, nice.
So all them years I went toprison, I just stayed focused.
(27:38):
I knew I was going to be therefor a long time and to make
anything worse was just going tobe worse for me.
So you know, of course,everybody.
You know you're going to missthe ones, your family and
everything else else, but thisis your home now, yeah, and
you're not going anywhere.
You know better, learn.
You got to make the best of it.
Take care of yourself.
Yeah, you know, stay with theright people and just do what
(28:00):
you got to do and continue tofight the case and get out, man,
yeah, because I knew I wasgoing to get out.
Yeah, that's when I stayedfocused.
That's what kept me alive.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It kept me, you know, not alive, but kept me on the
straight path I feel like goalsthat I've chased in in, things
like you know that are in mylife right now.
I neglected everythingbasically, uh, except for just
like the work and my kids andthe goal.
(28:30):
You know what I mean and that'swhere the focus comes from.
You know what I mean?
That's like the only way toreally really, really really get
shit done is like 100% tunnelvision and everything else.
Like you said, we're going tobe here a while, so we might as
well not even think aboutanything else but getting out of
here, so we might as well noteven think about anything else,
(28:50):
but getting out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You know somebody's on that path still just
surrounded by violence, everysingle day, every day, every day
, bro, and you don't ever knowwhen you're going to be called
upon running with.
You know the boys you'rerunning with they might go
handle that, you know, and ithappened a couple of times and I
(29:11):
had to do what I had to do.
You know when there's a rapisthit the yard, bro, you know hey,
he's got to go Snakes orwhatever, straight up, bro,
that's the way it gets down andI lived that life for many, many
years in there and I'll stilldo the same thing today.
If somebody wrecked my somebody, it's going to be bad.
It's going to be bad, you know,and that's just my that's.
(29:31):
I'll never change in thataspect, never.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I don't think anybody should, especially with your
own family and everything likethat, like anybody period, you
know, I feel like standing upfor women Because we're, you
know, the bigger we're supposedto be in charge of that shit.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Any man is going to hate a woman due to the coward,
if you ask me, and far beyondthat, and especially to do
something bad to a child, Ican't even tell you what's going
to happen if I ever catch him.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
That's right and unfortunately it's so prevalent
in society right now and it'skind of swept under the rug and
it's you know it is.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
But I'll tell you what.
When I did get released fromprison, my mind was straight
yeah, I knew what I was going todo.
I knew what I had to do.
I knew I was going to be onparole for a minute and I got
released, went right back toflagstaff I was living with my
little brother, toby.
I got a job working in a paintand body shop.
(30:35):
Work completed, my parole 100%done, and I moved back to Texas
for a while.
I was living back over there,you know, by the way, a good
thing that came out of all thisprison.
I hadn't seen my first love for20 years probably.
(31:00):
She had already been marriedtwice, had two kids, two
children.
She found my name.
My name came across her desk.
She was a lead child supportenforcement officer and he
flagged that.
Yeah, my name came across herdesk.
Well, she looked me up.
I was in Oklahoma prisonbecause they had transferred a
bunch of us out of the state.
We were overcrowded, yeah, yeah.
So I got a letter from her.
(31:22):
We've been together ever sincewe got married.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
What?
That's amazing.
What are the odds of that too?
Dude Coming across the desk.
Is that just not?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
good right there, because when I got the letter
from her, I was even withanother woman at the time we
were going to get married and Isaid listen, I'm sorry, but I
love this woman right here.
I am not trying to break yourheart, but I'm not going to lie
to you and carry you on somebullshit.
They ain't gonna have right.
And it broke her heart, itdidn't.
I felt horrible but, bro, Ilove this woman if it's the one,
(31:51):
it's the one you know.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Everything else like.
Unfortunately, there are abunch of laws and things and
other things that keep you fromjust being able to do that.
But if you feel it, you feelyou know it, you're gonna go all
in on it you know, she stuckwith me even while I was in
prison.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
She wrote me all the time.
Well, for eight years she keptwaiting for me to get out.
Wow, and I got out, went to her.
She had an apartment inFlagstaff so we went there.
I didn't go right there rightaway because the apartment
complex wouldn't allow aconvicted felon to live in it.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Really.
You know, what I mean, yeah,wow.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I didn't know you could even do that.
Yeah, they do.
So.
She said, fuck them, come livehere anyway, nice.
And which I did.
And six months later she got meBixen notice, because they
found out I was there.
You did it for love, though.
I did so, see, and I moved toTexas for a year or so.
Yeah, we didn't like it there,you know.
I just really went therebecause my mom's elderly and I
(32:50):
just wanted to be with her asmuch as I can.
She's still alive, so fromthere we moved here.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Really so before here in Oklahoma, texas, arizona.
That's where the main story is.
That's where all the storiesare All the stories.
That's where all the storiesare All the stories.
And then, when did you get here?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Not too long ago.
I got here in 2021.
Okay 2021.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think I got here in like 17 or 18 years, I don't
know.
But yeah, that's true, man, youhaven't been here for long, and
that's when I got the job wherewe used to work at.
Yeah, I had a lot of fun whilewe did been here for long and
that's when I got the job wherewe used to work at.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah Uh, I had a lot of fun while we did that Me too,
brother, and I learned a lotfrom you too, like welding shit.
You'd always let me come weldand we'd do all that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You know, yeah, I enjoy showing some people like
that.
Man, I really do.
It's just stuff that I got twowelders right here, man, what
are you going to be doing If youstill live here?
Man, I'm going to be showingyou a whole bunch of shit.
I'm sure you're going to builda motor.
You want to do anything whenyou're doing lawnmower?
I'm going to build it.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I'm going to video it and put it on your thing, Do it
.
Do it For real.
I mean, I remember when youfirst done so much work to it
and cleaned it up.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
A ton and I'm trying to get screwed out of it right
now.
Yeah, that's what you're saying, you know, and that's just
something that's going to.
I feel 100% that I'm going towin.
Yeah, I do.
This is my home.
I built a home here.
Yeah, I did.
And when I'm going to?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
get it done.
I, you don't be around, I am,yeah, man, you got to keep the
good around you, that fatsoright there, arrested from Tasty
Trust Company.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I, like the cop, that's me.
This would be Ron's dog.
Remember, she's called Pepe.
That's Pepe.
Yeah, oh shit, you know, pepe.
Yeah, I know.
Look how big she is.
(34:52):
Yeah, an ideal best friend.
She loves him, bro.
She's sweet, she's awesome.
I love her.
I tried to cut him.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
I don't want to get off thetrack or anything.
No, no, you're good, we're onthe right track.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I don't know where to start All that Montaigne
anything.
No, no, you're good, we'reright on the right track.
So I'll know where to start allthat Montana stuff.
Okay, so major, you know events.
What do we have here?
If we missed any that aren't inprison, or something?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I've been thrown in jail twice and extradited back
to Arizona on some false time tothings I already got in Arizona
.
Yeah, long time ago.
They sent me back, put me injail, arrested me here on a
warrant for failure to appearfor some sins.
I already did time on inArizona and yeah, and so they
extradited twice in a year.
(35:44):
Within a year I paid a $5,000bond, bonded out and they came
in and arrested me again a yearlater at Casey's Trust Company.
Bro, lost my job.
So that started a wholedifferent process of losing
everything that I just workedfor.
I know People coming out herestealing all my shit.
These idiots that own thisSigned a notarized contract at
their own fucking bank andthey're trying to dispute it.
(36:06):
Bro, I'm paying for the.
They ain't paid me a dime forelectricity since January.
Damn, it's fucked up.
It is that's you know what.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I mean, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Energy Bill and I though, bro Dude, I had three
dudes come out here, three dudes, grown men, come out here and
try to, and I bossed them allright in the fucking mouth, yeah
, and they took me to jail forthat shit.
That didn't matter.
Yeah, and they arrested me.
I'm the one who called theSheriff's Department.
I told them well, why are theyall bleeding?
And there ain't nothing wrongwith you.
I said, well, they obviouslydon't know how to defend
(36:39):
themselves.
What do you think?
They don't know how to fightand I shouldn't go to jail to
get done.
But they were dragging methrough this 24-7 alcohol
program had to go there twice aday, bro, all the way into the
sheriff's department.
That's crazy.
And pay for the testing and pay, it's 25 miles, it's 100 miles
a day.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I was driving and I'm on Social Security, bro and
like, I've seen friends likeyounger people that, like that,
dui wiped out their money and'rebarely getting a license, high
insurance, sr-22, and then theystill gotta go check in.
How do they even go to work?
They're barely X age.
Their job isn't great, it'sfucked up.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Three and a half months I went through that,
Never had one violation.
Alcohol wasn't even in thefactor.
I don't even know why I had togo do that shit.
Yeah right, what the fuck?
Yeah, you know I'm on myproperty, they're defending my
personal property and they takeme to jail for a misdemeanor
assault.
Three truck counts on threepeople Just do whatever you want
(37:38):
.
That's why I had to take a pleabargain here just a couple
weeks ago.
I know.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
No, they do stuff like that Plea bargain, Please
Bargain.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Sorry about that Bargain.
It's good, bro, that's all.
Hey, hey, we don't like this.
Hey, hey, this is dumb.
I don't know, that's all.
Hey, hey, we know all this.
Hey, hey, man, let's don't.
I don't know what you mean.
Hey, hey, how about mama?
She's like no, oh, dear mama.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
My sister.
She was like the oldest of likeme and my brother and all the
cousins and when my dad, mom,aunts and uncles get together
they just like pawn all of thosekids off in the living room
with the big screen and we justlike nightmare on elm street,
jason movies, you know like.
But my sister was the oldestand she looked after all of us
so we all called her mamas.
(38:35):
So I still to this day, well,she is like your mom.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
You know, mom, I can totally relate to that and you
know I'm the.
You know movies, horror movies,I just you know Other shit is
dumb, but I mean it really is.
I have no interest in somedumbass drama, shit, no okay, I
get what you're saying, I likedocumentaries.
I like documentaries.
(38:59):
Yeah, yeah, I like to watch theparanormal stuff.
Oh, yeah, me too.
Ufos and shit, ufos, anyparanormal ghost, ghosts and
shit.
Yeah, I don't like demons,exorcism shit.
It's gnarly shit.
I don't ever want nothing tohave to do with that.
No, they don't.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I know people that are sensitive to that shit too,
and they see shit like sincethey were kids.
They've been seeing shit.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's what they call it and they have.
But they see, they can see that, yeah, dead people.
I don't think I want to livethat kind of life that'd be a
lot, doing it every day too youever have any kind of paranormal
experience?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I have, yeah, one.
Actually I've had a few inMontana, couple like UFO shits.
But I was closing down the barI was working for and one of my
friends came to visit and she'sshe's been seeing that shit
since she was a kid and all thisstuff and everything is done
closing.
I'm doing the last steps.
(40:02):
I go to the bathroom.
She goes to the bathroom.
We come back.
The door was like locked.
It had like a two by four thatyou put in.
Yeah, we didn't even touch it.
Uh, the jukebox kicked in out ofnowhere and then like banging
happened in the like.
All these things happened in asuccession which ended in us
hearing people talking on theother side of the bar.
But we're the only people inthe bar and we were like
(40:25):
listening to happen.
We're're like we're getting thefuck out of here.
And we did.
On the way out we heard windchimes and when we talked for a
little bit in the car, goingover all the crazy shit, I go
home, I start researching and itcomes up about wind chimes and
that's the last step in, likesomebody trying to come over
(40:46):
from the other side.
Before they come and do it, youstart to hear like wind chimes,
right, and that's aftersomething physically happens.
And like all the thingshappened and we're on the last
step right and we ran the outand it was crazy just out of
nowhere.
So was it always one time foryou or what?
Just that one time, that onetime that happened?
But I have heard them before.
Think of the past.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I'll tell you what happens.
By the way, one of my bestfriends brought here just a
month ago His name was Jim.
He ran over on his holiday anddied what?
Yeah, and he was a great dudeman.
He was just like you are.
We were very close, yeah, and Iwent to his funeral and his
(41:27):
wife gave me this light bulb inmemory of him.
It's in that light thing whereI see that silver thing.
It's not even plugged in.
Well, Three days ago, four daysago, it turned bleak On and off
.
I was down here doing some workby myself.
I swear to God.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
No, like a fuse or something like that.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
No bro, it's not even plugged into nothing.
Oh shit, yeah, you're right on,it's just in the core.
If you plug it into the outlet,it's not even plugged in.
That's fucked up, and I'mtelling you.
It blinked like five, six timesand stayed on for a good 30
seconds at a time, bro, I'mgoing to find this video.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I have on my phone buried somewhere.
But it was a couple years agoand the girl I was dating living
with.
She was going to bed early, hadwork.
I would stay in the living roomand watch movies or whatever.
I was out there and there was aballoon that I got for like
Valentine's Day.
It floated about as far as liketo your camper all the way into
(42:29):
the living room from a bedroomwhere the door was closed and I
knew it was closed.
All the doors were closed tokeep the air, like you know,
circulating the way it was, andI'm just like sitting there
watching a movie.
It's a little dark until I seethis.
Before I even see it, I see thedogs.
One's on the couch, uh, bennyand win Winston's on the ground
and I see him lift his head upand they both all look to the
(42:52):
hallway Isn't that amazing?
And then the thing startsfucking coming in and he gets
freaked out and starts walkingaway and I'm like tripping that
this is even happening and I'mlike, oh, I jump up and I run, I
turn the lights on in thekitchen, I go in the room and
I'm like, yo, there's a fuckingghost, there's a ghost in.
You know like freaking out.
But long story short, like Iwould go in, like after I talked
(43:15):
to her, I went back in and theballoon was gone and then I
freaked out about that.
So I ran back in there and shewas like you're tripping, you're
tripping.
I went back out there again andit was gone and I I was like
I'm not tripping, that's fuckedup.
I locked myself in the room for20 minutes and I just like she
was sleeping so I couldn't liketake my mind off of it.
And I went back out there andit was like it was like sitting
(43:38):
in the regular fucking spot.
Yeah, I mean, it was.
It was crazy.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I speak up all night bro, that's the kind of shit
that'll make you think your mind.
You're losing your mind.
I mean, what are you supposedto think?
No windows open, no, nothing.
But you know, you have that inyou, but you already know
Something ain't right here.
You know Whether it's somedemonic shit or whether it's
just a good spirit.
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I remember her saying that she thinks there's a
little kid that lives in thehouse Like a little boy.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, but for the dogs to just give and leave, you
know it was crazy.
They could see that shit right,I know Any dogs can see, they
see all that shit.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
He's looking over there right now.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I'll tell you what.
She was in here with me thatnight and she was laying right
there on the bed right here andshe was staring, would not take
her eyes off that, um, it iscrazy, but I knew it was jim
brown.
I didn't have no bad feeling, no, vibe yeah, yeah yeah, and it
(44:36):
was just him, because his wifethey went and stole all his
hearties, his other kids thatwere involved in the death, and
they were.
They were not.
So he was married to anotherwoman, bro.
So they claimed everything thathe had.
And but this other woman thathe is married to now, yeah,
didn't have no rights to tell methis shit, bro.
So I went and checked on her.
Yeah well, she wouldn't answerher door, wouldn't answer her.
My phone calls nothing, andstill hasn't to this day.
(44:56):
What shell, that's funny.
I went to her sometimes.
I said listen, dude, you don'tproduce her like immediately.
Uh, you don't produce her likeimmediately.
There's some shit's going down,bro.
So I get a text message sayingit's from her.
She's fine, blah, blah, blah.
(45:17):
And I don't think it was fromher at all.
No, no, I think something badhappened to her.
That's what I think.
But I just can't get involvedin that kind of a situation
right now, brother.
I can't Because my life is onthe line here and if I go do
something over there, it's goingto ruin everything that I've
(45:38):
worked so hard for out here.
So in time I'll find out andI'll deal with it then.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
You're well on your way to figuring everything out.
How about in the next chapter?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I got injured, man.
I'll deal with it then.
You're well on your way tofiguring everything out.
How about in the next chapter?
I got injured, man.
I broke my lower lumbar spineball just a year ago.
I fell off that loader overthere that's sitting up in the
(46:11):
field where I rebuilt.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
It's a 1958 payloader that was left here.
Really, yeah, you ever seen it?
No, I'll show you.
Yeah, I'll check it out.
I'll show you Cool shits thatdon't break.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I take care of any small engine we got that don't
run.
We hear a lot more car tractors.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Oh, the tractor with the blades.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
You all know that shit.
And professionally, you knowthese are the toolboxes.
I used to have a lot.
You've seen my toolboxes in thepast.
I still got a lot left.
I do yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Did you bring any tools from when you left Texas
and all that?
What did you come here withwhen you moved down?
Nothing.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
I've accumulated all of thesetoolboxes, all the tools,
everything on my own within thelast three years, really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Damn You've done.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
well, See that motorcycle sitting right there.
That's a Kawasaki 250 dirt bike, and my neighbor down in the
bottom of the canyon gave thatone to me and he gave me this.
That's a Honda CB450 bullstreet bike.
And they were just sitting downthere in the dirt and the weeds
were all growing up around them.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
They don't look bad, though they look good.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I'm going to restore them?
I must, certainly am and thenI'm going to sell them.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
I'm going to sell them because I'm broke.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
You ain't got to give me no cash, darling.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
I think I missed you, bro.
It's been a minute.
I'm glad you stayed in touch,though, man dude, I don't know
how much it's been.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's not hard, it was easy, even asking for any help
because it's a.
You know it's a, not a fight,but it's just something that I
don't like to fucking do.
Bro, you and me both, bro, Iwas in such a situation that I
didn't have no fucking choice.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I to me and I know, you know, and I can't tell you
um how much it meant to me evenbefore that, bro, you were all
you were.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Just I don't know, bro, just the connection that we
had was just like automaticfucking thing man I uh, I was,
because I worked there for acouple years too and when I got
back, matt was there and he'slike, yeah, that's tom, he's the
mechanic.
And we hit it off and I waslike, man, it's cool as fuck.
And then you taught me allsorts.
And I was like, man, thisdude's cool as fuck.
And then you taught me allsorts of shit.
It was cool, man, like it wasjust cool to come and see you,
(48:33):
you know, every now and then itwas.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
You didn't see nobody else out there.
I didn't want nobody else outthere and I was cool with Matt.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Matt, me and Pat don't have any oh.
and more like taxing on the mental health, I feel
like, than being incarcerated,you know and uh.
So I'm excited to kind of diveinto that and learn about that a
little bit and learning moreabout your, uh, your past and
just you know, we've beenfriends for a while, bro, yeah,
(00:23):
Excuse me, excuse me All right.
So we'll start with how old areyou?
55.
You look young.
Thank you, tom.
What's your middle and last J?
Tom J, it's actually Thomas.
(00:44):
You want Tom or Thomas, itdon't matter to me, t-o-m-a-s or
T-H-O-M-A-S.
T-h Sounds very professional.
Thomas J Egbert Mm-hmm.
You were born where.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Flagstaff, Arizona, 1970.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
October 14th 14th, all right.
So kind of what I do is makelike a little roadmap of your
life, of the things we're goingto talk about, and then I can
navigate the conversation andknow when to go and to win.
So it's kind of inchronological order, like from
(01:29):
when you were born, where you'reborn to where we're at now, but
between all of that, which thebeginning is when you were born
and then we're in the present,right now, think of three major
life events or chapters ormoments that shifted the course
of your life, changed thedirection of your life or
(01:51):
changed the whole way.
You even think it could besomething good, it could be
something traumatic, it could bewhatever, but life-altering
events usually change the courseof our lives, whether it's for
good or bad.
What can you think of?
Speaker 2 (02:07):
I was born in Flagstaff.
We moved to Winslow.
That's where I grew up Winslow,Arizona.
Okay, had a pretty goodchildhood, up until six years
old probably.
My dad was a major alcoholic,just a mean man.
One of my sisters got killed ina vehicle accident.
(02:28):
The driver was my other oldersister's.
I'm not Hi, you can speak huhyeah, of course he's doing us a
YouTube video, so go ahead.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah, we got time.
We're just doing thepre-interview process though.
Hi, yeah, yeah, of course.
Do you.
You like bigger teas up here?
You can bring them over here.
Thank you so much.
Yes, thanks, I appreciate it.
I like your, john ellie,there's a great thank you I'm
sorry.
I was nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you, rj.
I live in colorado too, sothat's why I was like, yeah, but
(03:03):
I used to live here and I usedto work with him all the time.
I've only heard really goodthings about you.
He really seems to like you alot, which is rare.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
You don't find too many real people.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
You don't.
You really don't find too manygood friends that just you get
along with and you're there foreach other when you need each
other.
It's rare.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
She is one of the good moments of my life that
will come later.
Yeah, the good parts.
Yeah, the good parts.
I'll tell them a story about mylife from when I grew up and
everything oh yeah, it's a longstory yeah, get down, dude, get
down.
Yeah, you don't need to be inthe lap, look comfortable.
Yes, thank you.
You look good to everybody.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Anyway, thank you, honey.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, thank you.
And this tea's amazing too, bythe way.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yes, it is, I'm going to grow some of those pork
chops here in a little while.
Do you want any?
Sure, you can do that.
Maybe some of them mashedpotatoes that we got in there.
You want some the mince?
What about?
Guys know this yeah we're goingthat's what we do with Portal
Talk just a minute, That'd befantastic.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah, thank you so much.
So anyway, your sister passedaway.
She got into a car wreck.
Who was she driving?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
This guy's name is David Anaya.
He's my brother-in-law.
Now he's married to my othersister.
He was the one driving.
They were all together and theclub you know, on anything
partying.
She had this one.
She was high into rodeo, horses, everything.
Well, yeah, she wanted a bunchof ribbons at night.
Oh hell, yeah, she was the onlyone ejected from a road vehicle
and she done it.
And just not too long ago Ifound out that, uh, my sister,
(04:41):
her older sister, my, my oldersister they actually left her
there on the ground for like 45minutes Because they were all
drinking and she was worriedabout going to jail, getting
caught.
That's funny.
So she died and that changedthe course of our whole family.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
How old was she at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
She was 15 years old, 15?
.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
Yes, tony, I didn't know that.
T-o-n-i like tony, tony, tony,help.
Uh man, and you were?
How old?
You were six when that happened, six, seven, eight, nine, ten,
so she's only a couple yearsolder than me that's what I'm
gonna call her man.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
she was a great sister.
How many other brothers andsisters I have?
Two old.
I have one younger brother andone older brother, and me and my
older brother have never,really ever got along well.
No, no, me and my youngerbrother we had a great.
But my older brother, when wewere growing up and went along,
I was the youngest of the crewand we hung out with guys that
(05:39):
were way older than us, you know, and I was always the guinea
pig for everything.
Yeah, that's right, you know itwasn't like that, but it just
made me go fight people on thestreet.
It was rough.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Because they're older , they can kind of you know.
Yeah, they were boys, they were.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
They were bulldogging .
So when my sister died, Ifinally moved back to Flagstaff
and the things just continued toget worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
So that was from your younger years.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
They're getting worse through your teen years, so
from around seven years old, wemoved back to Flagstaff Arizona.
My dad, my mom, my older sister, of course, my brothers and we
started going to school andstuff there and my dad would
continue to drink, come homedrunk all the time, just beating
(06:33):
people up, including me and youknow, my mom, yeah, so my mom
packed us all up when I wasactually.
I met her in Flagstaff when Iwas 12 years old what you know
and we took each other'svirginity.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
What Really, yeah Damn Hell of years ago.
That's crazy.
It is crazy.
What yeah that's?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
awesome.
And then we got separated whenmy mom put us all in a van and
drove us all to Texas and SantaFe, texas, and you know.
So I went to school in Santa Feand I hated school.
I did school.
But I met this old mechanic, rj, and let me tell you, I did
school every day from seventhgrade, all the way until I
(07:15):
didn't go to school.
Cops were getting involved, yeah, but this man taught me how to
be a mechanic and he taught meeverything.
He taught me how to weld, hetaught me how to paint, he
taught me how to build engines,he taught me how to do
everything, everything.
And let me go in this big-assjunkyard he had and said pick
any car you want out there andyou're going to build it here in
(07:35):
this shop.
What I picked?
A 67 Camaro SS, nice.
It had no motor room, no junk,yeah, restored it completely,
100% Paint, brand new,everything Myself, yeah, all by
myself, young too.
Within one year, dang.
And he paid for all it.
And my mom found out I was justin school for a year, for a year
(07:56):
, and she sold it.
She took it from me.
Oh, she sold this car to me,dang.
They sold this car to him.
So that started a bad thing forme and my mom, but I love my
mom, she's awesome.
She still lives in Texas.
Man, yeah, you guys are coolnow.
So about that, oh yeah, we'vealways been cool.
So that was about the age of 14or 15 years old I was at that
time, yeah.
(08:17):
And then from there I movedback to Phoenix and I went to a
mechanics school, a trade school, oh, pit, phoenix Institute of
Technology, okay, and Igraduated for precision power,
train and chassis all AAAcertified mechanic, nice.
(08:41):
And then from there that was ayear.
I did that a year.
So then after that, about thattime, I had a problem.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Oh no, malfunction, malfunction.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, it's a woman.
Let's see if we got it's justlater.
Yes, it should.
Let's turn that.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
I think we're back a bit.
Where were you?
The Phoenix Institute?
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, from there I graduated, uh, certified
mechanic.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Chassis.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
Precision power train the chassis.
I cover everything on thevehicle, from the frame, from
the tires all the way up througheverything.
Oh shit, I know.
So I moved back to Winslow,arizona.
I was about 19, 19 or 20 at thetime when I graduated Mm-hmm.
Then 19, 19 or 20.
At the time when I graduatedMm-hmm, I started working for a
Ford dealership as a medicalpeople Mortgage for a while.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, oh, it's in the Cigar.
Yeah, yes.
My dad was a Cigar, because Idon't know why he needs to stay
in the back part, but it don'twork though, because it's got
the wet thing on it thing on it.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
That should definitely be off.
You can move that to a bar orwhatever you want.
You got to break out some ofthese brother.
Which ones these yeah what?
Speaker 1 (10:31):
I got them just for this special occasion.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
And I'm happy to give my story to you.
By no means you know.
There's a whole bunch of otherstuff that went down when I went
to Texas.
Dude, dude, I used to racesupercross, uh, two-stroke dirt
bikes, 125, really, yeah, andrace in miami.
Rick raced in miami, florida,at daytona, uh, fort lauderdale
(10:56):
beach.
I raced in houston, texas, thehouston astrodome.
I raced in phoenix, phoenix,arizona, in the Coliseum, 125
class, cc, yz 125, 1985 modelYamaha.
Yes, sir, yz.
Well, I was brutal, no fear,nothing ripping at me no fear
(11:19):
over them?
Speaker 1 (11:21):
So you're doing that Ford dealership?
Is that around the same time aseverything that's way before,
oh, way before?
So you're doing that Forddealership?
Is that around the same time aseverything that's way before,
oh, way before?
I didn't know All right.
So what were you doing whileyou were working at the Ford?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
dealership Lead mechanic.
Lead mechanic Nice.
I was a very young one, I was20 years old.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Damn, that's tight, you're the big dog I was, so
you're obsessed with it.
Do you really love what you'redoing?
Do you still love doing that,oh?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
I love it.
I just love to find thesmallest vehicles I can get and
put the biggest motors I canfind and make hot rods Nice, I
like the old-school lawnmowerriding, sit-down ones, but with
some motor on it.
Those, are the next ones.
I have one in the backyardwhere I'm going to make one.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
I have.
That's where.
Um yeah, so you're the leadmechanic.
What's going on?
Speaker 2 (12:12):
around the brand is that delicious they are, thank
you.
At that time I was not working.
Well, I was making great money,I don't know.
But the lifestyle in windsor,where I was on, there's nothing
but drugs and alcohol already,poverty and all that kind of
stuff, and that's what I wasdoing.
Why didn't it work?
Why is it like that?
Because there's nothing else todo.
(12:34):
That, bro, it's just a smalltown.
There ain't no shopping centers, there ain't no malls, there
ain't no, there ain't nothing.
It's just a town.
You know some businesses.
The railroad pretty much ran it.
You know what I mean?
Route 66, that's right throughWinslow, oh, really, yeah.
And my dad actually owned aTexaco gas station when I was
(12:55):
young, the only major servicestation in that town at the time
.
Really, everybody was afraid ofmy dad, dude, everybody.
He was a mean dude?
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Oh yeah, he told me he beat everybody up, including
you.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
You know he used to take us dove hunting.
He caught us and put us throughhunter safety courses and stuff
.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We'd go dove hunting and deer hunting, elk hunting.
You know, every time we'd getdrawn, he'd get drawn, whatever.
But he just had a majordrinking problem and I really
can't blame him now, because nowI know that his father was way
worse on him, man straight up.
So me and my dad are cool atthis point, yeah, we're good.
You start to understand as youget older and you become an
(13:31):
adult and I don't have no hatetowards nobody, you know what I
mean, right.
But when I'm working in this,this is where it gets even much
worse for me.
I've been working for adealership for a year, yeah, and
I had got drawn for gear thatyear and I had a friend by the
name of david chavez, you know,my two other other brothers also
(13:56):
had got drawn.
Well, that gone for the samearea, but we only had one rifle
that my dad had left us and thenso my older brother had it and
they were out in the woods.
So I got off of work that nightdude, it was a Friday night.
I got off of work, went andpicked up my homeboy and his dad
(14:16):
had had a .30-06 rifle thatbelonged to his son so we could
go hunting, had to tageverything.
Everything was all legit,mm-hmm.
So we go hunting from his dad'shouse to Walmart to buy some
shells forit.
And I came around this cornerand there was two dudes standing
on the corner right there and Iknew who both of them were.
(14:37):
I didn't really associate withthem but, yeah, they knew who I
was under them.
Just what one of them wasrelated to the dude that's with
me.
Yeah, the guy that's with mesaid he's hunted all down in the
past.
He sees a car Don't stop, don'tstop, don't stop.
The car, yeah, pimping on him.
Yeah, stopped right in themiddle of the street, mm-hmm,
(14:58):
and he's related to him.
Yeah, he has a big old rockwire on the chain with a leash.
So he takes the side of the carand the other guy comes up to
my side of the car and says man,thomas is probably just leaving
(15:19):
.
Why, I'm not afraid of nobody,dude, yep.
So dude walks around the sideof the car and punches the dude
right in the face with the chainwrapper, splits his whole face
wide open, bleeding all over theplace.
Dude, yeah, the guy didn't wantto get smoked.
He's the one who just punchedright in the face from the other
dude that walkedright.
(15:39):
He said their first cousins,over some kind of deal that went
bad on them.
A drug dealer went bad on them,I don't know when, but it hit
on bad, so okay, and then he offwalking.
It was like a low-incomeproject, low place, is it?
They were two.
They were going to do thehitting with that, yeah.
So I looked at the passenger oh, my Dude, you got to handle
(16:02):
that, bro.
You can't just let this dudehit you in the face like that.
I do not do that Right.
He had no heart, brother, and Ihad always looked out for him
in the past.
Yep, yep, yep, I see.
So the dude went away and Isaid hey, you fucking, you're
going to do that shit to me, andin that amount of time.
(16:22):
Well, this rifle's sittingright in the, you know, in the
console of my truck.
Yeah, I'm looking at this newtalk of shit.
He wouldn't come back to theporch.
This jackass passenger that'swith me pulled the rifle up,
dude, and fires it right infront of my face and he hit a
window in the dude's apartmentand went out the roof.
(16:42):
Damn.
I got charged with two countsof first-degree attempted murder
, premeditated two counts ofaggravated assault premeditated.
Two counts of endangermentpremeditated put me in jail.
I was in the Navajo County Jailfor a year.
I got bonded out and I refusedto take a plea bargain because I
(17:07):
didn't do nothing, man.
I didn't fire no gun.
I never wanted no gun to befired.
You know that's what happenedfor real, yeah, yeah.
So the guy who shot the gun wasa month past him.
Yep, yep.
They gave him six years.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
He took a plea bargain for six years.
Did they say that he pulled thetrigger and not you?
He came and testified at amonth trial.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
He came and testified at my trial and so when I went
to trial, I lost and I had themost jackass attorney you could
ever think of.
They used my mom as theinvestigator for their law firm
Phillips Associates out ofPhoenix, arizona.
She has no experience in beingan investigator nothing, hardly,
none.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Well, I went to trial , I lost lost.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
They gave me 20 years in prison and your mind is on
that, like she had to do she.
How was she part of the court?
My attorney that my mom hiredfor us had a phoenix called
phoenix and phillips andassociates law firm.
She hired them to come andrepresent me and they introduced
my mom as their leadinvestigator for their law firm.
How that's even legal, I don'teven know.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, that's like conflict of interest.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, that's crazy.
So anyway, he was horrible.
Yeah, he did horrible in thetrial, mm-hmm, the witnesses
came in.
The dude that punched the guyin the face said that he watched
me help put my hand on thebarrel to help him aim the gun
at him.
What the For real In thetranscripts, rd, what yeah?
(18:38):
And I was like, wow, I can'teven believe it.
Somebody would even say that Imean, that's a deer rifle dude,
yeah, with a scope on it.
That don't make any sense.
Why would I grab the end of thebarrel?
And I'm not even looking.
The dude didn't even put it onhis shoulder, he just pulled it
Boom.
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
To help him do what.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
I hope that's what they testified to.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
And he still lost.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
I lost and I went to President Brown and they gave me
a long time.
I did many, many years and Ifiled appeals because I had all
my rights still and you didn'tdo it and I won After ten and a
half years already being inprison.
That's just how long it took meto go through the nine-second
court of appeals.
I went back and they remandedit back to the 17th court in
(19:28):
Navajo County and the judge saysyou know?
I went back and then remandedit back to the 17th court in
Navajo County and the judge saysyou know, this is the only
thing I can do.
She said we can either startfrom square one and back it up
Go, come here, come here.
We can either start from squareone, start your whole bond,
(19:49):
your whole card, all the wayover.
She said, or I can drop it tothe super mitigated sentence and
you'll be out.
And for you, I said.
I said, okay, we'll do that.
Well, at that time I think I hadalready been in prison.
It was either 12 and a halfyears or something.
It was either 12 and a halfyears or something, so it was
(20:11):
like 12 and a half years.
So I had to do four more yearsand I got released.
And they actually released metwo years earlier than that.
Oh, that's for good behavior inprison, yeah, yeah, yeah, and
doing all the programming andall that stuff.
So I actually got out, but Istill did a long time in prison
for absolutely nothing.
I didn't touch nobody, I didn'tshoot no gun.
(20:34):
I did nothing.
You know, you really didn't donothing.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
I didn't hope, I swear I did nothing at all and
you've never been in any trouble, like you know that nothing
straight prison straight toprison.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
So when you go to prison I'm sure you may know
that you know different stateshave different things.
So whatever your sentence isyou're going to do, I had to do
65 of my sentence at that time.
Yeah, so that's why I got.
You know, they gave me a 20 anda half year sentence but I got
out and so they take 65 of it.
Then I for good behavior andall that stuff.
It just continued to drop itdown more and more and more.
(21:08):
How did you know you had, likethe option?
Speaker 1 (21:09):
to go to court and all that stuff.
It just continued to drop itdown more and more and more.
How did you know you had, like,the option to go to court and
do that and was there like alibrary thing?
Did you have to go learn thelaw?
Did you have to study for allthat?
Yeah, how did that?
Speaker 2 (21:19):
work.
When I hit the yard, I hit amaximum security prison yard,
level four in Phillipsburg,aryan Brotherhood, all the gangs
, all of that shit, Everybody.
Yeah, and I'm a straight fish,as they call it.
When you first hit a prisonyard Brand new, yeah, on a level
four yard you get wrecked threetimes a week.
Uh-huh, you get a shower threetimes a week and that's it.
(21:43):
That's it.
You go to the, you're in a cellwith another dude and violence
every single day, and I didseven years on that yard.
Seven years, seven years.
Yeah, I got a GED, though Iworked in the kitchen, got a job
working in the kitchen and Iworked in the rec department.
(22:05):
So I was better in my life.
The opportunities you had, youtook them, but I still got
connected to the people I neededto for survival.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Because you have to pick.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Mama, get in right, you have to.
If you don't, you can eitherdie, yeah, or you're going to go
to protective custody, you know, or something like whatever.
They offer people to do that,and people in protective custody
, they don't have a good life inprison, bro, yeah, ever, yeah.
So I did what I had to do, rj.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, that's what I did.
Yeah, for my own reasons.
(22:38):
You know what I mean?
Stay alive, yeah, hey.
And I tell you, a lot of peopletalk about AB being the most
notorious killers in the world,and some may be, but two of them
that I met in there, they tookcare of me.
One of them taught me there wasa law library there.
I signed up for it.
(22:58):
I went in there and he said I'mgoing to show you where the
books are.
I'm going to show you whatbooks you need.
She said you're going to sitdown here?
She said, because nobody'sgoing to get you out of here but
yourself, tom.
You read these books.
You come in this law library,don't go to the gym and all that
stuff.
You come in here, you study thecase, you file your own stuff,
and I did and my case wasoverturned Damn that's amazing,
(23:23):
that's cool, like on him, though, after seven years, though I
was fighting it, bro, it took methat long.
They kept kicking it back.
They kept because I emotionsweren't filed right.
Blah, blah, blah, blah.
It always has to be Alwayssomething like that, always.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I watched like there's YouTube videos where
they're showing a guy who's beenin for a bunch of years and
they're, like you know, goingthrough the interview If they're
going to release you early,parole thing and they're so like
unfazed by it at that pointbecause they've been in so long
that they're like not cateringto their institution.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
you know, once you get to that stage, you have
adjusted to living in prison.
That's after so many years.
And I did the same thing.
I made a routine, I worked out.
You know I did everything, allthe classes, I went to church.
You know I did everything Ineeded to do to get.
(24:20):
You know, keep myself on thestraight path.
Yep, but keep in mind I didn'tdeserve to be in prison, man.
Yeah, at all beginning.
And I went through three major,major riots, really yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
People were dying Blood air just smoke bombs all
that yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Tear gas National Guard shooting concussion bombs,
shooting shotgun bombs,shooting rubber balls, rubber
ones.
Yeah, you ever been in one ofthem.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
I haven't, but I know they fuck people up.
They hurt yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
They do not feel good , though Not bad.
Strip you all down and come inand strip your whole self.
No blankets, no sheets, you'rein your box and we were
handcuffed face down.
We were handcuffed face down,hog tied in the dirt on the
Redfield for like 15 hours.
Dude, ants and shit crawling onus, and as you moved they had
dudes in gun towers all aroundthe prison yard and it was a big
(25:16):
old, loud microphone.
If you move, the next roundwill be live and you will die.
Three of those I went to.
Racial wars in between it wascrazy, bro.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
racial wars in between.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was crazy,bro.
What was the like?
Biggest like had the most beefrivalries between, like the
different gangs or races.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
It was usually always the whites against the blacks.
Very seldom it was the whitesagainst the Mexicans.
And then you know the Indiannation.
We never had issues with them.
So it was usually the whitesagainst the blacks.
And then the Mex nation.
We never had issues with them.
So it was usually the whiteswould get to black and then the
Mexicans would always jump rightin with us and it was
devastating on the black people.
They would be stuck in razorwires trying to get away from
good.
(26:00):
It was 15 to 1 racial bro.
Really, yeah, easy, maybe more.
A lot of Mexicans and a lot ofwhite people, a lot of white
people, a lot of white people.
Dang.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I can imagine.
Do you, at this age and whereyou're at in life and everything
you've gone through, have youbeen able to like look back at
those times or those chapters ofyour life to like really soak
it in and be like man?
I really went through that or Icould have really not made it
through that if this or thischanged and really like
reflected on it.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
You know, what I went through already was devastating
, you know, and it wasn't aboutI wasn't worried about being
able to handle myself in prison.
It was a simple fact that I wasyanked away from my two boys,
who were very young at the time,and the wife I had before her,
(26:56):
you know, just stripped my wholelife away from me.
That's devastating on a person,you know.
Yeah, it's a problem, but youknow, I'm a survivor and I got a
good heart, you know, and I, uh, but you know, I still I'm a
survivor and I I got a goodheart, you know, and I made it
through it.
After all them here, I made itthrough everything.
And even though I haven't seenmy youngest son for almost 20
(27:18):
years, you know, I still lovehim and everything, but he don't
even work.
He was, he was just a baby dudein diapers when I got taken
away.
Yeah, but my oldest boy, Istill talk to him all the time,
so it's all good there, nice.
So all them years I went toprison, I just stayed focused.
(27:38):
I knew I was going to be therefor a long time and to make
anything worse was just going tobe worse for me.
So you know, of course,everybody.
You know you're going to missthe ones, your family and
everything else else, but thisis your home now, yeah, and
you're not going anywhere.
You know better, learn.
You got to make the best of it.
Take care of yourself.
Yeah, you know, stay with theright people and just do what
(28:00):
you got to do and continue tofight the case and get out, man,
yeah, because I knew I wasgoing to get out.
Yeah, that's when I stayedfocused.
That's what kept me alive.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
It kept me, you know, not alive, but kept me on the
straight path I feel like goalsthat I've chased in in, things
like you know that are in mylife right now.
I neglected everythingbasically, uh, except for just
like the work and my kids andthe goal.
(28:30):
You know what I mean and that'swhere the focus comes from.
You know what I mean?
That's like the only way toreally really, really really get
shit done is like 100% tunnelvision and everything else.
Like you said, we're going tobe here a while, so we might as
well not even think aboutanything else but getting out of
here, so we might as well noteven think about anything else,
(28:50):
but getting out of here.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
You know somebody's on that path still just
surrounded by violence, everysingle day, every day, every day
, bro, and you don't ever knowwhen you're going to be called
upon running with.
You know the boys you'rerunning with they might go
handle that, you know, and ithappened a couple of times and I
(29:11):
had to do what I had to do.
You know when there's a rapisthit the yard, bro, you know hey,
he's got to go Snakes orwhatever, straight up, bro,
that's the way it gets down andI lived that life for many, many
years in there and I'll stilldo the same thing today.
If somebody wrecked my somebody, it's going to be bad.
It's going to be bad, you know,and that's just my that's.
(29:31):
I'll never change in thataspect, never.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I don't think anybody should, especially with your
own family and everything likethat, like anybody period, you
know, I feel like standing upfor women Because we're, you
know, the bigger we're supposedto be in charge of that shit.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Any man is going to hate a woman due to the coward,
if you ask me, and far beyondthat, and especially to do
something bad to a child, Ican't even tell you what's going
to happen if I ever catch him.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
That's right and unfortunately it's so prevalent
in society right now and it'skind of swept under the rug and
it's you know it is.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
But I'll tell you what.
When I did get released fromprison, my mind was straight
yeah, I knew what I was going todo.
I knew what I had to do.
I knew I was going to be onparole for a minute and I got
released, went right back toflagstaff I was living with my
little brother, toby.
I got a job working in a paintand body shop.
(30:35):
Work completed, my parole 100%done, and I moved back to Texas
for a while.
I was living back over there,you know, by the way, a good
thing that came out of all thisprison.
I hadn't seen my first love for20 years probably.
(31:00):
She had already been marriedtwice, had two kids, two
children.
She found my name.
My name came across her desk.
She was a lead child supportenforcement officer and he
flagged that.
Yeah, my name came across herdesk.
Well, she looked me up.
I was in Oklahoma prisonbecause they had transferred a
bunch of us out of the state.
We were overcrowded, yeah, yeah.
So I got a letter from her.
(31:22):
We've been together ever sincewe got married.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
What?
That's amazing.
What are the odds of that too?
Dude Coming across the desk.
Is that just not?
Speaker 2 (31:31):
good right there, because when I got the letter
from her, I was even withanother woman at the time we
were going to get married and Isaid listen, I'm sorry, but I
love this woman right here.
I am not trying to break yourheart, but I'm not going to lie
to you and carry you on somebullshit.
They ain't gonna have right.
And it broke her heart, itdidn't.
I felt horrible but, bro, Ilove this woman if it's the one,
(31:51):
it's the one you know.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Everything else like.
Unfortunately, there are abunch of laws and things and
other things that keep you fromjust being able to do that.
But if you feel it, you feelyou know it, you're gonna go all
in on it you know, she stuckwith me even while I was in
prison.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
She wrote me all the time.
Well, for eight years she keptwaiting for me to get out.
Wow, and I got out, went to her.
She had an apartment inFlagstaff so we went there.
I didn't go right there rightaway because the apartment
complex wouldn't allow aconvicted felon to live in it.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Really.
You know, what I mean, yeah,wow.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
I didn't know you could even do that.
Yeah, they do.
So.
She said, fuck them, come livehere anyway, nice.
And which I did.
And six months later she got meBixen notice, because they
found out I was there.
You did it for love, though.
I did so, see, and I moved toTexas for a year or so.
Yeah, we didn't like it there,you know.
I just really went therebecause my mom's elderly and I
(32:50):
just wanted to be with her asmuch as I can.
She's still alive, so fromthere we moved here.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Really so before here in Oklahoma, texas, arizona.
That's where the main story is.
That's where all the storiesare All the stories.
That's where all the storiesare All the stories.
And then, when did you get here?
Speaker 2 (33:08):
Not too long ago.
I got here in 2021.
Okay 2021.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I think I got here in like 17 or 18 years, I don't
know.
But yeah, that's true, man, youhaven't been here for long, and
that's when I got the job wherewe used to work at.
Yeah, I had a lot of fun whilewe did been here for long and
that's when I got the job wherewe used to work at.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Yeah Uh, I had a lot of fun while we did that Me too,
brother, and I learned a lotfrom you too, like welding shit.
You'd always let me come weldand we'd do all that.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You know, yeah, I enjoy showing some people like
that.
Man, I really do.
It's just stuff that I got twowelders right here, man, what
are you going to be doing If youstill live here?
Man, I'm going to be showingyou a whole bunch of shit.
I'm sure you're going to builda motor.
You want to do anything whenyou're doing lawnmower?
I'm going to build it.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
I'm going to video it and put it on your thing, Do it
.
Do it For real.
I mean, I remember when youfirst done so much work to it
and cleaned it up.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
A ton and I'm trying to get screwed out of it right
now.
Yeah, that's what you're saying, you know, and that's just
something that's going to.
I feel 100% that I'm going towin.
Yeah, I do.
This is my home.
I built a home here.
Yeah, I did.
And when I'm going to?
Speaker 1 (34:24):
get it done.
I, you don't be around, I am,yeah, man, you got to keep the
good around you, that fatsoright there, arrested from Tasty
Trust Company.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I, like the cop, that's me.
This would be Ron's dog.
Remember, she's called Pepe.
That's Pepe.
Yeah, oh shit, you know, pepe.
Yeah, I know.
Look how big she is.
(34:52):
Yeah, an ideal best friend.
She loves him, bro.
She's sweet, she's awesome.
I love her.
I tried to cut him.
Good luck with that.
Good luck with that.
I don't want to get off thetrack or anything.
No, no, you're good, we're onthe right track.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
I don't know where to start All that Montaigne
anything.
No, no, you're good, we'reright on the right track.
So I'll know where to start allthat Montana stuff.
Okay, so major, you know events.
What do we have here?
If we missed any that aren't inprison, or something?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I've been thrown in jail twice and extradited back
to Arizona on some false time tothings I already got in Arizona
.
Yeah, long time ago.
They sent me back, put me injail, arrested me here on a
warrant for failure to appearfor some sins.
I already did time on inArizona and yeah, and so they
extradited twice in a year.
(35:44):
Within a year I paid a $5,000bond, bonded out and they came
in and arrested me again a yearlater at Casey's Trust Company.
Bro, lost my job.
So that started a wholedifferent process of losing
everything that I just workedfor.
I know People coming out herestealing all my shit.
These idiots that own thisSigned a notarized contract at
their own fucking bank andthey're trying to dispute it.
(36:06):
Bro, I'm paying for the.
They ain't paid me a dime forelectricity since January.
Damn, it's fucked up.
It is that's you know what.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I mean, I mean yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Energy Bill and I though, bro Dude, I had three
dudes come out here, three dudes, grown men, come out here and
try to, and I bossed them allright in the fucking mouth, yeah
, and they took me to jail forthat shit.
That didn't matter.
Yeah, and they arrested me.
I'm the one who called theSheriff's Department.
I told them well, why are theyall bleeding?
And there ain't nothing wrongwith you.
I said, well, they obviouslydon't know how to defend
(36:39):
themselves.
What do you think?
They don't know how to fightand I shouldn't go to jail to
get done.
But they were dragging methrough this 24-7 alcohol
program had to go there twice aday, bro, all the way into the
sheriff's department.
That's crazy.
And pay for the testing and pay, it's 25 miles, it's 100 miles
a day.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I was driving and I'm on Social Security, bro and
like, I've seen friends likeyounger people that, like that,
dui wiped out their money and'rebarely getting a license, high
insurance, sr-22, and then theystill gotta go check in.
How do they even go to work?
They're barely X age.
Their job isn't great, it'sfucked up.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Three and a half months I went through that,
Never had one violation.
Alcohol wasn't even in thefactor.
I don't even know why I had togo do that shit.
Yeah right, what the fuck?
Yeah, you know I'm on myproperty, they're defending my
personal property and they takeme to jail for a misdemeanor
assault.
Three truck counts on threepeople Just do whatever you want
(37:38):
.
That's why I had to take a pleabargain here just a couple
weeks ago.
I know.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
No, they do stuff like that Plea bargain, Please
Bargain.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
Sorry about that Bargain.
It's good, bro, that's all.
Hey, hey, we don't like this.
Hey, hey, this is dumb.
I don't know, that's all.
Hey, hey, we know all this.
Hey, hey, man, let's don't.
I don't know what you mean.
Hey, hey, how about mama?
She's like no, oh, dear mama.
Speaker 1 (38:14):
My sister.
She was like the oldest of likeme and my brother and all the
cousins and when my dad, mom,aunts and uncles get together
they just like pawn all of thosekids off in the living room
with the big screen and we justlike nightmare on elm street,
jason movies, you know like.
But my sister was the oldestand she looked after all of us
so we all called her mamas.
(38:35):
So I still to this day, well,she is like your mom.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
You know, mom, I can totally relate to that and you
know I'm the.
You know movies, horror movies,I just you know Other shit is
dumb, but I mean it really is.
I have no interest in somedumbass drama, shit, no okay, I
get what you're saying, I likedocumentaries.
I like documentaries.
(38:59):
Yeah, yeah, I like to watch theparanormal stuff.
Oh, yeah, me too.
Ufos and shit, ufos, anyparanormal ghost, ghosts and
shit.
Yeah, I don't like demons,exorcism shit.
It's gnarly shit.
I don't ever want nothing tohave to do with that.
No, they don't.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
I know people that are sensitive to that shit too,
and they see shit like sincethey were kids.
They've been seeing shit.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
That's what they call it and they have.
But they see, they can see that, yeah, dead people.
I don't think I want to livethat kind of life that'd be a
lot, doing it every day too youever have any kind of paranormal
experience?
Speaker 1 (39:40):
I have, yeah, one.
Actually I've had a few inMontana, couple like UFO shits.
But I was closing down the barI was working for and one of my
friends came to visit and she'sshe's been seeing that shit
since she was a kid and all thisstuff and everything is done
closing.
I'm doing the last steps.
(40:02):
I go to the bathroom.
She goes to the bathroom.
We come back.
The door was like locked.
It had like a two by four thatyou put in.
Yeah, we didn't even touch it.
Uh, the jukebox kicked in out ofnowhere and then like banging
happened in the like.
All these things happened in asuccession which ended in us
hearing people talking on theother side of the bar.
But we're the only people inthe bar and we were like
(40:25):
listening to happen.
We're're like we're getting thefuck out of here.
And we did.
On the way out we heard windchimes and when we talked for a
little bit in the car, goingover all the crazy shit, I go
home, I start researching and itcomes up about wind chimes and
that's the last step in, likesomebody trying to come over
(40:46):
from the other side.
Before they come and do it, youstart to hear like wind chimes,
right, and that's aftersomething physically happens.
And like all the thingshappened and we're on the last
step right and we ran the outand it was crazy just out of
nowhere.
So was it always one time foryou or what?
Just that one time, that onetime that happened?
But I have heard them before.
Think of the past.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
I'll tell you what happens.
By the way, one of my bestfriends brought here just a
month ago His name was Jim.
He ran over on his holiday anddied what?
Yeah, and he was a great dudeman.
He was just like you are.
We were very close, yeah, and Iwent to his funeral and his
(41:27):
wife gave me this light bulb inmemory of him.
It's in that light thing whereI see that silver thing.
It's not even plugged in.
Well, Three days ago, four daysago, it turned bleak On and off
.
I was down here doing some workby myself.
I swear to God.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
No, like a fuse or something like that.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
No bro, it's not even plugged into nothing.
Oh shit, yeah, you're right on,it's just in the core.
If you plug it into the outlet,it's not even plugged in.
That's fucked up, and I'mtelling you.
It blinked like five, six timesand stayed on for a good 30
seconds at a time, bro, I'mgoing to find this video.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
I have on my phone buried somewhere.
But it was a couple years agoand the girl I was dating living
with.
She was going to bed early, hadwork.
I would stay in the living roomand watch movies or whatever.
I was out there and there was aballoon that I got for like
Valentine's Day.
It floated about as far as liketo your camper all the way into
(42:29):
the living room from a bedroomwhere the door was closed and I
knew it was closed.
All the doors were closed tokeep the air, like you know,
circulating the way it was, andI'm just like sitting there
watching a movie.
It's a little dark until I seethis.
Before I even see it, I see thedogs.
One's on the couch, uh, bennyand win Winston's on the ground
and I see him lift his head upand they both all look to the
(42:52):
hallway Isn't that amazing?
And then the thing startsfucking coming in and he gets
freaked out and starts walkingaway and I'm like tripping that
this is even happening and I'mlike, oh, I jump up and I run, I
turn the lights on in thekitchen, I go in the room and
I'm like, yo, there's a fuckingghost, there's a ghost in.
You know like freaking out.
But long story short, like Iwould go in, like after I talked
(43:15):
to her, I went back in and theballoon was gone and then I
freaked out about that.
So I ran back in there and shewas like you're tripping, you're
tripping.
I went back out there again andit was gone and I I was like
I'm not tripping, that's fuckedup.
I locked myself in the room for20 minutes and I just like she
was sleeping so I couldn't liketake my mind off of it.
And I went back out there andit was like it was like sitting
(43:38):
in the regular fucking spot.
Yeah, I mean, it was.
It was crazy.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
I speak up all night bro, that's the kind of shit
that'll make you think your mind.
You're losing your mind.
I mean, what are you supposedto think?
No windows open, no, nothing.
But you know, you have that inyou, but you already know
Something ain't right here.
You know Whether it's somedemonic shit or whether it's
just a good spirit.
You don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
I remember her saying that she thinks there's a
little kid that lives in thehouse Like a little boy.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Yeah, but for the dogs to just give and leave, you
know it was crazy.
They could see that shit right,I know Any dogs can see, they
see all that shit.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
He's looking over there right now.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
I'll tell you what.
She was in here with me thatnight and she was laying right
there on the bed right here andshe was staring, would not take
her eyes off that, um, it iscrazy, but I knew it was jim
brown.
I didn't have no bad feeling, no, vibe yeah, yeah yeah, and it
(44:36):
was just him, because his wifethey went and stole all his
hearties, his other kids thatwere involved in the death, and
they were.
They were not.
So he was married to anotherwoman, bro.
So they claimed everything thathe had.
And but this other woman thathe is married to now, yeah,
didn't have no rights to tell methis shit, bro.
So I went and checked on her.
Yeah well, she wouldn't answerher door, wouldn't answer her.
My phone calls nothing, andstill hasn't to this day.
(44:56):
What shell, that's funny.
I went to her sometimes.
I said listen, dude, you don'tproduce her like immediately.
Uh, you don't produce her likeimmediately.
There's some shit's going down,bro.
So I get a text message sayingit's from her.
She's fine, blah, blah, blah.
(45:17):
And I don't think it was fromher at all.
No, no, I think something badhappened to her.
That's what I think.
But I just can't get involvedin that kind of a situation
right now, brother.
I can't Because my life is onthe line here and if I go do
something over there, it's goingto ruin everything that I've
(45:38):
worked so hard for out here.
So in time I'll find out andI'll deal with it then.
Speaker 1 (45:45):
You're well on your way to figuring everything out.
How about in the next chapter?
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I got injured, man.
I'll deal with it then.
You're well on your way tofiguring everything out.
How about in the next chapter?
I got injured, man.
I broke my lower lumbar spineball just a year ago.
I fell off that loader overthere that's sitting up in the
(46:11):
field where I rebuilt.
Speaker 1 (46:12):
It's a 1958 payloader that was left here.
Really, yeah, you ever seen it?
No, I'll show you.
Yeah, I'll check it out.
I'll show you Cool shits thatdon't break.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
I take care of any small engine we got that don't
run.
We hear a lot more car tractors.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Oh, the tractor with the blades.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
You all know that shit.
And professionally, you knowthese are the toolboxes.
I used to have a lot.
You've seen my toolboxes in thepast.
I still got a lot left.
I do yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Did you bring any tools from when you left Texas
and all that?
What did you come here withwhen you moved down?
Nothing.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Nothing, absolutely nothing.
I've accumulated all of thesetoolboxes, all the tools,
everything on my own within thelast three years, really, yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Damn You've done.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
well, See that motorcycle sitting right there.
That's a Kawasaki 250 dirt bike, and my neighbor down in the
bottom of the canyon gave thatone to me and he gave me this.
That's a Honda CB450 bullstreet bike.
And they were just sitting downthere in the dirt and the weeds
were all growing up around them.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
They don't look bad, though they look good.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
I'm going to restore them?
I must, certainly am and thenI'm going to sell them.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
I'm going to sell them because I'm broke.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
You ain't got to give me no cash, darling.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
I think I missed you, bro.
It's been a minute.
I'm glad you stayed in touch,though, man dude, I don't know
how much it's been.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
It's not hard, it was easy, even asking for any help
because it's a.
You know it's a, not a fight,but it's just something that I
don't like to fucking do.
Bro, you and me both, bro, Iwas in such a situation that I
didn't have no fucking choice.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
I get it.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
I to me and I know, you know, and I can't tell you
um how much it meant to me evenbefore that, bro, you were all
you were.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Just I don't know, bro, just the connection that we
had was just like automaticfucking thing man I uh, I was,
because I worked there for acouple years too and when I got
back, matt was there and he'slike, yeah, that's tom, he's the
mechanic.
And we hit it off and I waslike, man, it's cool as fuck.
And then you taught me allsorts.
And I was like, man, thisdude's cool as fuck.
And then you taught me allsorts of shit.
It was cool, man, like it wasjust cool to come and see you,
(48:33):
you know, every now and then itwas.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
You didn't see nobody else out there.
I didn't want nobody else outthere and I was cool with Matt.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
Matt, me and Pat don't have any oh.
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