May 24, 2025 • 61 mins
What do The Warriors, The Thing, Juilliard, addiction, and forgiveness have in common? One man: Thomas G. Waites. In this gripping and deeply human episode, the cult film icon takes us on a wild ride from his gritty beginnings in street gangs to starring in legendary films and finding salvation through storytelling. Waites pulls back the curtain on the chaos of Hollywood sets, the discipline of Juilliard, and the fragile power of empathy in a cutthroat industry.
He shares the untold stories behind The Warriors and the brutal realities of filming in Alaska, while offering hard-earned wisdom on addiction, leadership, and the redemptive force of art. Plus, a sneak peek into his upcoming play, Lucky Man: A Warrior’s Journey—a raw and powerful reflection on the choices that define us.
If you love film, believe in second chances, or crave stories that stir the soul—this episode is for you.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Coming up, I think that, you know, one of the best directors
I ever worked with was John Carpenter.
John, you know, it was tough. Don't get me wrong.
He has no pair of wet socks. This guy, he knows what he wants
and he knows how to get it, and he's very firm and he's very
(00:22):
disciplined. And simultaneously it creates an
atmosphere that makes you feel like you're at a party, that
you're just there to have fun. You know, he and Kurt Russell
had that quality of it's like hard work and good times.
Simultaneously, it's the best ofall possible world.
(00:45):
This episode is sponsored by Better Help.
A couple years ago, I went through one of the toughest
health episodes of my life. I found myself in a really,
really dark place and honestly, it felt like the world was
caving in all around me. I didn't know where to turn or
what to do. I knew I needed something, but
it just seemed like nothing was working.
And therapy, Well, therapy didn't work for me in the past.
(01:07):
But then, with the encouragementof my wife, I decided to give
today's sponsor, Better Help a try, even though I was a little
skeptical at first. And let me say, it was so
different. I connected with a therapist and
simply talking with her helped me lower my anxiety in ways I
didn't expect. Sometimes it's just about having
someone outside of your family to listen, and Better Help made
that so easy. What I love most about Better
(01:30):
Help is the flexibility. You don't have to commit to
months of sessions if that's notwhat you need.
Sometimes a few sessions are allit takes to get some relief, to
take the edge off and start feeling a little better.
Plus, they have a wide selectionof therapist.
You can find someone you really click with, and if you don't,
you can switch therapist anytimeat no extra cost.
(01:52):
If you're like me, someone who gets stuck in their head a lot,
better help might be the answer.And right now, if you visit
betterhelp.com/sold separately or use the link in this video's
description, you can get 10% offyour first month.
So give it a try. Remember, you can't take care of
anyone else in your life until you take care of yourself.
(02:24):
Auto sequence start in 54321 andnow I'm with the show.
I am Thomas G Waits, an actor, director, writer, teacher,
songwriter, singer and musician in New York City, and my
(02:47):
happiness is all of what I just mentioned aforementioned acting,
directing, writing, teaching, songwriting and singing and
being a musician, that brings megreat happiness.
Mr. Tom Waits, thanks so much for spending some time with me.
I'm honored. Thank you, Jason.
Thanks for having me man. Absolutely, man, I'm excited to
(03:08):
to talk to you. You've had such an amazing
career, film, television, on stage.
I guess a lot of people though, know you, most from the
Warriors. And The thing is that what you
get mostly when you talk to people.
Yeah, that's mostly what I get from people is the The Warriors,
(03:29):
the iconic groundbreaking film released in February of 1979,
and John Carpenter's, I think brilliant remake of The Thing,
which, you know, is just they'reboth cult classics.
And, you know, I say this in my one man show, Lucky Man, playing
(03:55):
in New York City on 24 Bond St. the Gene Frankel Theatre,
opening June 5th. I say this in the film, you
know, I mean in the play, a lot of actors, you know, friends of
mine that I've come up with havedone way better than me
financially, name recognition, critical, but very few have been
(04:16):
able to say they've been in not one, but two cult classics.
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you, there's not
many people who can say that andnot many people who can say that
continually with all of your body of work, you've worked
pretty regularly as a working actor all the way through.
There's not many people who can say that either.
That's right, and I'm still going strong.
(04:36):
I'm just getting started. Yeah, there you go, man.
That's that's right. You probably some told some of
these stories 100 times. So thank you for indulging me
for some of these things we'll get into.
But first I just wanted to talk to you about how did you get
this love of acting and storytelling?
What did that start in school? No, it actually is rather
(04:59):
depraved. So I was a kid and I really was
in a gang and I was headed for the you know, I grew up on the
wrong side of the tracks and I Iwas headed, I don't know, you
know, the cops have been in my house three times.
I was in going in the wrong direction and the universe in
(05:19):
her nippotent beneficence, sent a car to smash into me and break
my femur bone in half. Your femur's, your strongest
bone, split my skull, rupture myspleen, my kidneys.
So I was laid up in the hospitals, you know, pretty
(05:42):
serious condition for a long time as a kid, you know, about
15 years old. And while I was in there, you
know, back then you could smoke in the hospital.
So right before bed they would shoot me up with Demerol and I'd
light up a Marlboro and I'd lookout the window and be like, wow,
(06:03):
life is fucking groovy even whenyou have pins in your legs, You
know what I mean? Yeah, no, no pain.
So about a week or so goes by and they don't give me the
Demerol shot. They give me two little, you
know, aspirin or something. So I pull the emergency cord and
I start going my leg, you know, putting on this big performance
(06:28):
and she runs and gets the Demerol and shoots me up about 3
days. Three days later the the
orthopedic surgeon came in and he's looking at the chart and
he's like, wait a minute, he's not supposed to be getting this
much Demerol. And the nurse who was a neighbor
of mine, Nurse Pat Richardson, she lived around the back, lived
(06:49):
around the block for me. She looks at me and she's like
you, son of a gun. You ought to be an actor.
And a light bulb went off over my head.
And I thought, well, I'm not going to be running the streets
anymore. I certainly can't fight without
any legs because we did a lot ofthat.
I can't play sports, which was my dream.
(07:10):
I better find something to get into.
Yeah, so I started watching movies, Jason, you know, like,
and I mean great old films. And then seeing myself, you
know, as Alan Ladd or James Cagney or John Garfield, I
started identifying. And then I thought, wow, that
(07:31):
would be a cool thing to get getinto.
And then I discovered the great Marlon Brando and Al Pacino and
you know. Who you worked with, right, You
worked with, with Al Pacino. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I went on to work with some of the people that I, I just
thought were like in another stratosphere, but that was where
(07:56):
it started. Yeah.
And then when I went back to high school, I was like, you
know, on crutches and, you know,where we're all the girls in the
drama club. Right.
So I joined the drama club and you know, I did a few parts in
high school and then I did a couple of I, I went to Community
College because someone thankfully taught me out of
(08:18):
joining the Army, which would not have been good for me.
And in Community College, I auditioned for and got the lead
in like practically every play they did.
And the teachers there said, whydon't you audition for
Juilliard? And I said, Juilliard, that's a
music school, isn't it? And they said, no, they have an
(08:40):
acting program now. So I auditioned for and got a
scholarship to Juilliard when I was 18.
Yeah. And that's basically it.
The the initial trajectory of it, yeah.
So you can honestly say that it it really saved your life,
right? I mean, acting back in that in
(09:00):
that time you were kind of headed.
You didn't know where you were going to be and being in a gang
and. Literally, and, and a part I'm
leaving out of the story, a significant part is the fact
that when I was recovering from my car accident, I was in a a
body cast from my chest all the way down.
Yet, mate, I've really banged myself up.
(09:21):
And my oldest sister Kathleen was my personal hero.
She took me to the drive in to see Franco Zeffirelli's Romeo
and Juliet. And now all of a sudden, you
know, this tough guy mask meltedaway and I was so moved that I
wept, you know, for everything my life.
(09:43):
And I went home the next day andI memorized the balcony scene,
both characters. Wow.
And I use that to get into Juilliard.
So Shakespeare got me out of theghetto.
That is awesome. What happened at Juilliard.
Did did that go well? Did you?
Did you did that project you? On or no, I fucked that up too.
(10:06):
I mean, they were so good to me,you know, they were so patient
with me. They knew that I was clearly a
troubled, a rebel without a pause.
I, I, I, I just was a, a troubled kid, you know.
I mean, you know, I've tried to figure out some reasons why
psychologically, but you know, anyway, they were very patient
(10:29):
with me. And I barely hung on by the skin
of my teeth for the first three years.
And then finally, you know, theygot sick of me and kicked me
out. But the training that I got and
the discipline that I learned, it's a rigorous program.
Yeah. You're in dance class, 9:00,
voice class, 10:00 speech class,1112 o'clock lunch break. 2:00,
(10:53):
three hour acting class, 2 hour dinner break.
And then you rehearse a play every night.
I mean, all year long. And back when I was doing it,
you had to take academic coursesin between all that.
Wow. So I was so blessed, Jason.
I'm just one of the, I call my play lucky man.
I was so lucky at that formidable age of 18/19/20.
(11:19):
I was impressed with not only the greatest musicians in the
world, but the greatest voice teachers, the greatest acting
teachers, the some of the greatest actors.
I mean, I used to watch Mandy Patinkin and Bill Hurt and Robin
Williams was in my class. I'd watched them rehearsing
plays. So, you know, despite myself, I
(11:40):
learned discipline and I was a hard worker.
I mean, I think I got that from my dad.
You know, he was a mechanic and he raised 7 kids and he always
had three jobs, you know, And I saw that work ethic and that
finally sort of integrated itself into my own consciousness
(12:01):
and I applied it to my early work as an actor, which helped
me to get, I think, a lot of roles initially that I went in
for. Wow, we we we take a lot from
from what we observed only as kids and her parents hard
workers and determined. No doubt, you know, and we may
not have had much money, but we had a lot of love.
(12:23):
And, you know, my dad was a goodman, you know, hard.
A lot of guys today would have seven kids and you know they'd
be on the run. Yeah.
You know, men, in particular, men have lost that sense of
responsibility. But this was a guy that wouldn't
have it. You know, he was going to do
(12:44):
what he was supposed to do, which was raise his children.
And my mom was left at the task of disciplining someone like me,
which was not an easy job. And God rest her soul, you know,
she was a great woman. And I'm very fortunate to have
come from that kind of stock, you know, of, you know, work
(13:08):
hard and maybe you'll get someplace.
Work hard and maybe you'll get lucky.
Yeah. Luck has to meet the
preparation, right? Isn't that what they say?
You work hard and prepare and. Right.
That luck comes about. You had great parents it sounds
like. What?
You had great parents it sounds like.
Yeah, man, I had, I had good parents.
(13:29):
I I mean, they were, you know, they had their problems, but you
know, they were there. Yeah.
Like you knew when you came homeat night, they were there.
Yeah, you. Know.
Wanted to be there, You didn't do your homework.
But love is not always kind and gentle.
(13:51):
No, you know, I know from raising my own children
sometimes, you know, you got to be tough with kids.
You know they'll walk all over you.
Yep, absolutely. Yep.
That's. My parents had character.
Well, going back from SO let's talk about the Warriors.
You'd already done several movies before that came about,
(14:13):
right? How did that audition come up
for the Warriors? OK, so around this time is like
19771978 New York City. I had done, you know, a couple
of plays of note. Simon Gray's new play Molly I
did at the Splato Festival. That got a lot of attention.
You know, all the critics came to review it.
(14:37):
I remembered Time magazine came to review it and said Tom Waits,
who plays Oliver in Molly is cute.
But frankly, I'm not impressed. Oh no, You know how critics can
be. And and then after that, I did a
movie for PBS called Pity the Poor Soldier, and that was a
(15:01):
Revolutionary War film. And then I did a film called On
the Yard with the great actor John Hurd and many great actors,
Dominic Kinasey, Richie Bright, I mean the list goes on and on.
The great actors that were in that film.
James Remar from The Warriors was in it.
Anyway, it was a movie really that I auditioned for the
(15:22):
supporting character. But when they saw him back then,
they did screen tests, 35mm film, and they were watching the
rushes and they went. I was 22, mate.
And they go, no, that's the mainguy.
That's chilly. That's the main character.
And you know, frankly, that's been a blessing and curse my
(15:45):
whole life because, you know, I tend to pull a lot of focus.
I don't mean to. I'm just doing my thing.
So when I play the main characters and things, I tend to
fare better than when I'm, you know, hey, the body's over here,
you know, it just doesn't work well because it's like, who is
(16:06):
that guy? You know, I'm a little bit too
interesting for my own good sometimes.
But that just comes in. Yeah, I did do On the Yard, and
there was some hype about that coming out because Joan Micklin
Silver had won the Oscar award. Carol Kane, Hester Street.
They produced that film. Her husband Ray directed it, Ray
(16:29):
Silver and and they came into town with the Warriors and the
Wanderers. And Scott Rudin, who was a
casting director at the time, took me out to dinner and to a
Broadway show and he said, you know, tomorrow you're going to
be offered the Warriors and the Wanderers.
You have to decide which one youwant to do.
(16:54):
I mean, how many 23 year old kids get opportunities like
this? Yeah, to make a decision to have
to make a decision what you're going to go.
For Yeah Yeah. And I chose to do The Warriors,
even though Philip Kaufman is a great director, because I don't
(17:15):
know why I instinct. I really liked Walter.
And it's such a shame that I sabotaged that relationship
because I, I really liked him asa man and as a filmmaker.
And so I got the audition. I got called back.
I got called back again. And then it was between me and
(17:36):
another guy. I think it was Alan Rosenberg,
if I'm not mistaken. And then we did the final call
back with Deborah Van Volkenburg, who plays was
supposed to play Fox's love interest.
And Deborah is as wonderful a person as she's an actor.
And she and I did the final callback to see if there was
chemistry between US, and there was.
(17:57):
And I got the part and she got the part.
However, our ultimate experiencewith the film turned out to be
quite different. Yeah, I was going to.
I was going to ask you about some of that One thing I wanted
to ask you about. I was really interested in you.
I've heard you mention the conditions in in on set, that it
was very difficult. You were shooting one of the
(18:18):
hottest summers. You were shooting long nights.
Talk about that a little bit. You were running around very
physical film, right? Oh my God, it was brutal, right?
I mean, I don't mean to whine a lot of people, you know, imagine
if you're in Ukraine, you're losing this guy complaining.
But you know, it was hot and it was all night shoots.
(18:41):
So you showed up work at six O clock and you work till 6:00 in
the morning five nights a week, week in, week out, day in, day
out. So you slept during the day and
you worked at night, which is not natural, first of all.
Secondly, it was a lot of running and running and running.
And it was a physically, but I was in pretty good shape.
(19:04):
I didn't mind that so much. The conditions were difficult
because they also tried to squeeze all eight of us into one
trailer. Imagine no air conditioning, 8
guys sweating like, you know, itwas.
And so guess who opens his big mouth and says, hey, wait a
minute, you can't do this to us.Here he is.
(19:28):
You know, he's trouble already. Like, you know, wait a minute.
I mean, you got to give us something, you know, it should
be like two or three to a trailer you can't put.
So they gave us another one and then I think later on they
brought in. But that was one of the reasons
why it was difficult and it was a very stressful environment.
(19:49):
You know, Walter Hill, for whom I've developed tremendous
sympathy in retrospect because a, I've directed my own film and
I know what it's like to work with actors that are pain in the
fucking neck. And I I don't know how he put up
with me as long as he did, but. His most recent film, The
(20:11):
Driver, had tanked at the box office.
Not good. He's way over budget.
He's way behind schedule. All the suits from Paramount are
breathing down his neck. And here's the guy just trying
to make a movie. His vision.
And if you see the film, you seethis futuristic, clockwork,
(20:32):
orangish balletic, almost cartoon of a film.
It was so stylized. And I had no idea that that was
the movie we were going to make.You know, I thought we were
going to make a movie about how love could rise above the
violence in the city streets. And yeah, you know, I was.
(20:53):
I was a love child from the 70s,you know.
It was a beautiful film. I mean, the way it was shot and
the way that the themes that played through, like you said,
that some of that on the street life.
It was it was a great for its time.
I'm sure that's you know, it's it's very iconic.
Did you think that when you're making it, or was it just?
Work for you when you're no idea.
(21:15):
We we didn't Andrew Laszlo, who gets very little credit, was the
cinematographer and he was firstof all, the kindest, gentlest
man. I, I don't know if he was from,
you know, the Baltic somewhere. He he would check maybe, I don't
know, but he very slight accident and just the gentlest,
(21:39):
sweetest man under brutal conditions for them too is not
easy for the crew either. No crybaby actors are always
like the first ones to go Wham Wham, Wham.
But the crew are out there sweating too.
And Andrew, Andrew and Andrew Laszlo and Walter set up these
very difficult shots, you know, and they wet the streets down to
(22:04):
make them glimmer. And, you know, I think they had
an idea that was ahead of its time.
Nobody had made a film like thatuntil that time.
And of course, it, you know, gave Walter a great career and
James Remar and David Pastor Kelly and Deborah it it, it
(22:25):
helped many people's career and it would have helped mine had I
not been a pain in the ass. What was that friction between
you and and Walter? Was it just the the conditions?
Did you offer your, I think I read somewhere where you wanted
to know kind of like where the direction where he was going at
the time and did he not take kindly to that?
(22:49):
No, but I to be specific, when adirector is making a film, the
last thing in the world he wantsto do is start hearing about
what your motivation is, what you think that you think you
need a close up. Now, I didn't mean to be
(23:10):
difficult. You know, I'm not a bad kid.
I was never a I'll intentioned person, but I was disturbing him
and becoming disruptive to the process of an already difficult
film. And and you know, he finally,
after seven weeks, had enough ofme and told Craig Baxley, the
(23:34):
fight choreographer, get rid of him.
I don't care how you do it, justkill him off.
I can't stand it, you know, but I created that and you know, and
I I take responsibility for that.
Now, if you want to hear some what of a other side of the
(23:57):
story, I really thought we were making a story about love.
At least that's the way he and Italked about and that's why I
took that film. That love, the greatest force in
the world, can rise above even violence.
And while he agreed with me, that wasn't what he intended or
(24:21):
did. And I had no right to question
his vision. I'm not the director and I was
not, you know, Marlon Brand. I mean, who did I think I was?
So it was a case of not knowing your place in the chain of
command. You know what I mean?
It's the writer, the producers, the the directors at the top of
(24:45):
the chain, actually in film. And then the actors are
somewhere underneath. And had I, you know, perhaps
called my agent, if I really wastroubled, that would have been a
much better choice. But, you know, I obviously chose
to, you know, piss this guy off.And I have remorse about that.
(25:10):
I have healthy remorse, which means, you know, I did it.
I'm really sorry that I did it. I've paid and paid and paid the
price for having done it. But hopefully in the ultimate
scheme of life, Jason, he's forgiven me.
(25:35):
And if that's the case, then in some ways it's all worth it
because life itself, as Plato said, is all about forgiveness.
And that's what happened. And that's how it happened.
And, you know, I wrote to him a couple times and tried to make
(25:56):
amends. And he was very gracious.
You know, he even brought me in to audition for Johnny Hanson.
You know, he didn't have to do that.
He accepted a call from his production office from me.
And, you know, and I said, you know, listen, I'm really sorry.
He said, it's OK. It's just really bothered me,
(26:18):
you know? And then you took your name off
the film. Oh, yeah.
And what, you know, I'm. I'm going to write a book, What
Not to Do by Thomas T Wade. You know, buy high, sell low,
you know. Yeah.
Was that just, was that kind of being pissed off and just taking
your name off the the? Film, you know, and I have a
(26:40):
disease called alcoholism and I'm in recovery now for a long
time. But when we are active in that
disease, we have a tendency to ingratiate ourselves with
grandiosity. You know, we tend to think that
we're like the greatest, you know, and that's very unhealthy,
(27:06):
you know, and it's very difficult for your family and
people around you. But I just was like, I'll get
that. You know, I thought, I guess I
thought I I'd read somewhere that Peter O'Toole did that.
And you know, I'll show them, you know, they'll be sorry that
they but they weren't. But, you know, you learn these
(27:30):
lessons in life and that's why I'm doing this play that perhaps
I can be of service in some way with these lessons to try to
tell them in a poetically dramatic, excuse me, dramatic
and emotional way that that reaches the heart of of human
(27:53):
beings and helps them understandwhat it is like to be an addict
and what it's like to find recovery.
And my good friend John Goodman was fortunate enough to, you
know, help provide the funds to put this little 14 run X, you
(28:14):
know, experiment up in hopes that, you know, someone will
come along and give it a life off Broadway.
Because I really feel it. It would be especially great
for, I mean, it's mental health really essentially, isn't it?
It's entertaining because, you know, everyone wants to know
about show business and movie stars and Kurt Russell and Al
(28:35):
Pacino and Deborah Harry and allthe other, you know, people that
I've worked with in my life. And, and that's great.
But there's a message to you know, about mental health and
you know, no matter what side ofthe political aisle you're on,
and believe me, I'm about as farleft as you can get before mouse
(28:58):
a tongue. You know, we all have friends
with mental health issues, man or children or.
And I think we all go through some instance of that in our
lives. I mean, what we go through in
life. And like you said, no matter
what political party or what your job is, it's we're all
(29:19):
connected, we're all in this together.
And. No doubt.
I say you strike me as very spiritual and loving.
I think that even from the beginning, you, you, like you
said with the warriors, you're really into having a film that
would rise above everything elseand let live love shine through.
So I think that's, that's a common theme and, and, and what
(29:40):
you're trying to do and, and your life in general, just
that's the most powerful emotionout there, you know?
I believe in love, man. I believe in it, you know,
Whether it's love for your children, love for your spouse,
love for your fiance, love for your family, love for your
(30:00):
hobbies, love for your friends, any kind of love, you know, sets
you off balance for a moment because it's the most powerful
force. It can change.
You know, they've done studies where they take three different
(30:20):
plants and one of them they ignore and another one they say,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.
And another one they say I love you, I love you, I love you.
And the one that's ignored lastsa little bit longer.
The one that says I hate you dies right away.
And the one that says, you know,here's I love you, I love you, I
love you. Every day blossoms into, you
(30:43):
know, something beautiful. And if we.
I know it must sound like, you know.
Oh, like a hippie, you know, whydon't you get with it?
You know, this is 2025. You know, it's all about money
and what you have and material, but but it is not you.
You're not going to take any money with you when you go.
(31:04):
No, you're not going to take your houses and cars and your
worship of the dollar. You're going to, I think, lay on
your deathbed and go, you know, did I love enough and the last
did I help? Did I help anybody?
The last thing you want is regret on that deathbed.
You know you. Don't dig it.
(31:24):
I, I totally agree. I I think we we need as a
society to come together more and and rise above what there's
much more that makes us have things in common than there are
differences, I think and. Absolutely made.
We're so much the same. I don't care if you live in
Bangladesh. I don't care if you live in poor
(31:46):
people in Gaza. I don't care if you live in
Israel. I don't care where you live,
man. We're the same.
I play AC chord on the piano andyou're going to, you know, go.
Hey, I know that sound that connects us to what made us the
music Is is is a gift from the gods.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, that's I'm, I'm right there
(32:10):
with you. How did you get to know?
When did you first meet John Goodman?
How did that relationship? John, John is such a character.
Oh boy. He was a wild man back in the
day. So John and I would I, I think
it started out the first time wemet.
We did ATV film called The Face of Rage, and Danny Glover was in
(32:36):
it, John Glover was in it, and John Goodman and I were in it.
And, you know, we were both big drinkers at the time, so we had
spend a lot of time at the bar and then we'd end up, you know,
in his hotel room staying up allnight.
And, you know, he opened up to me on several occasions and
(32:56):
expressed his deepest feelings and we bonded.
And then I wanted to be a writerfrom a long time ago.
It's taken me a long time to getbetter at it, but my very first
play was a play called Johnny and I did it at the Actors
Studio and John Goodman did the reading of it and we bonded
(33:20):
again there. And he's just such a, he's just
such a funny and fun guy, and he's quite musical, you know?
He's. Very gifted musically and, you
know, he's way up here and I'm in a obviously a different
place. And I reached out to him and I
said, you know, hey, I want to do this play John and, you know,
(33:43):
would you help me? And he's like, I'm in.
That's awesome. It's really, it speaks volumes
about a man like that, that he would even take my call.
I mean, he's a international superstar, basically.
And, you know, and I'm an artistthat lives in New York, you
(34:03):
know, but that he would have thehumility, frankly, to take my
call and to help share this experience so that we might help
other people. Yeah, no, good friends are are
hard to find like that when you can just pick up the phone and
you can just immediately go backinto the old days.
(34:24):
You know, we've had friends likethat where you just you may not
talk for a while, but soon as you talk again, it just
everything reconnects. It's.
Beautiful friendship is a beautiful thing.
You know, we're talking about mental health and do you feel
like on a film set or TV, do youfeel like the emotions are so
high there budgets, time constraints?
(34:46):
Is it hard to stay positive whenyou're in the mix and you're
trying to get things done? Is it?
I'm sure there are, there are countless personalities on a set
and how do you deal with that? How do you stay positive?
How do you stay motivated when you know people are trying?
That pride gets in the way with some people and you're trying to
kind of maneuver all that. Is it hard to stay upbeat?
(35:09):
Yeah, man, you know, making a movie is unlike any other
experience in life. And people, you know, react to
it very differently. But staying calm and staying
(35:30):
kind is critical. I think that, you know, one of
the best directors I ever workedwith was John Carpenter.
John, you know, it was tough. Don't get me wrong.
He is no pair of wet socks, thisguy.
(35:51):
He's, he knows what he wants andhe knows how to get it.
And he's very firm and he's verydisciplined.
And simultaneously he, he creates an atmosphere that makes
you feel like you're at a party that, that you're just there to
have fun. You know, he and Kurt Russell
(36:14):
had that quality of it's like hard work and good times
simultaneously. It's the best of all possible
worlds. And I'm sure that Walter is the
same way, but those conditions were very difficult for him, and
I certainly didn't help anything.
And working for studios, you know, even back then, and
(36:38):
they're difficult, man, it's a lot of money on the line.
And they expected the Warriors to be like Saturday Night Fever,
let's release it in February, it'll go right to VHS and nobody
will ever hear of it again. Well, they weren't for a big
surprise in both instances where2 movies that they
underestimated ended up making them literally billions.
(37:01):
Of dollars. Oh yeah, And you, when you speak
of John Carpenter, you're talking about the thing did
where did you guys, where did you shoot that?
We we shot most of it on the sound stage in Universal.
That was an interesting. I'm sorry.
(37:21):
No, it, it was, you know, it waslike, yeah, I mean, I'm a New
York actor cutting my teeth and doing 8 shows a week, you know,
as if you can get the work. Yeah, and auditioning, pounding
the pavement. Rejection is your daily bread.
And now all of a sudden, I'm driving to work in a 1981 brand
(37:41):
new Chevrolet Corvette Stingray.I got money in my pocket.
I got a parking space. You know, it was like, you know,
completely the opposite of what I was accustomed to.
And we were treated like gold. Isn't it funny how life ebbs and
flows like that? I mean, we, we think we're down
(38:02):
and out and then just takes a phone call or a project and
then. Yeah, yeah.
And then, you know, we shot 2 weeks in Hide or Alaska, which
was rather difficult. It was difficult, yeah.
You know, I tell this story in my play.
I probably shouldn't give it away, but maybe it'll make
(38:24):
people come and see it. I'll do anything to get people
and come and see it. I mean, anything short of
prostituting myself. You know, we had to fly to
Anchorage, AK and then take a six hour bus ride to base camp
(38:45):
over the mountains in the middleof the night.
And Hyder, Alaska is a town on the border of British Columbia
in Alaska. And there's no law there.
If a murder happens, the Canadian Mounties try to pass it
off on the Alaskan state troopers and vice versa.
French Canadian coal miners working all day and drinking all
(39:05):
night. And we have to take this bus
ride and we're all partying in the back seat drinking, you
know, smoking bong hits and, andyou look out the window and it's
like hundreds of feet down. Ice, snow covered boulders.
So we're climbing. This one mountain is 6000 feet
(39:26):
above sea level and it starts snowing.
The roads are icy and then suddenly there's a white out.
Oh Dang. And you can't see 2 feet in
front of you and the bus slips off the road, The left rear
wheel slips off the road and youlook out the window and there's
(39:51):
nothing but snow covered boulders.
Oh man. Thousands of feet down.
You know, a minute ago we're like, yeah.
And now we're like, what the fuck?
Perched on this icy Cliff. So Kurt sort of becomes Mack,
(40:12):
the main character in The Thing,and he walks to the front of the
bus slowly, carefully, gently. All right, who's in the back of
the bus? Where do all bad Catholic boys
that despise themselves sit? The bag of the bus.
(40:32):
All right, windows, get on your hands and knees and climb to the
front of the bus. So I slowly crawl to the front
of the bus. Everybody else perfectly still.
I get to the front of the bus, Iget out one by one, we crawl off
the bus, and we push the bus back up onto the highway.
(40:52):
The weather clears. We show up at base camp at 5:30
AM. And there in the blue dawn
light, with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth,
20° below 0, Thank you very much.
No hat is John Carpenter like a Field Marshall general waiting
for his men. And 1 by 1.
(41:13):
He shakes our hands and calls usby name as we get off the bus.
I never seen a director do anything.
Oh wow, had he heard anything about the accident before you
guys got there? Yeah, no cell phones in 1981,
right? The walkie talkies didn't work.
He didn't have any idea what we'd just been through.
Oh. Man.
(41:34):
But he was there. He was there to greet you.
He was there. The leader.
Sub 0 temperature. He's a leader.
He's a, he's a, he's a leader. He is with his men.
That is, you don't find a lot ofdirectors like that, right?
No, you don't find a lot of people.
No, exactly. I I love you mentioned Windows.
(41:55):
It's a great story of how that that name came about.
You tell tell that story about how the character got that name.
So, you know, I had been doing American Buffalo, the play with
Al Pacino for almost a year, a little over here actually with
the Long Wharf production. And you know, I said to my Asian
(42:18):
look, you know, 8 shows a week, that's a dark play.
I mean, I don't know if you knowthe play, but about three guys
trying to rob a junction, you know, three guys in a junk shop
planning a robbery and and ma'amand you know, it won the
Pulitzer Prize and he's a brilliant writer, but it is a
very dark message, you know, theme, but was amazing to watch
(42:44):
live. I mean, he does comic violence
better than anyone, you know, and we were in a he was smart
because we put it in a small 550seat theater that was in not in
the round, but in three quarter round.
So very intimate. They were very intimate.
(43:05):
And so you really felt his power.
And it was a big hit. And John and Kurt had come to
see it. And that's why they asked me to
audition. And, you know, I'm playing this
character. And I'm like, you know, this guy
really doesn't want to be here. You know, he, like me, secretly
(43:26):
wants to be a movie. So I bought these sunglasses,
these green sunglasses, and I started wearing them drawers.
And I'm reading my character with these green sunglasses on
inside in my hurdles. And finally I've got to go,
John. From now on, I want everybody to
(43:48):
call me Windows. So John takes the drag of a
cigarette, looks up at the ceiling, blows the smoke out,
looks down the floor. He's the thinking man and he's
thinking and he looks at the glasses and he looks at me and
(44:09):
he goes, OK, from now on, everybody, Tommy wants us to
call them Windows. Let's get back to work.
Thus the birth of Windows. And it's the only movie to have
Windows and Mac in the same filmbefore the invention of
computers. That's awesome.
How important is that to kind ofgive your your little personal
(44:31):
tweak like that to a character? Do you love doing that?
Do you love? Bringing something?
Yeah, I do. I think what makes a great actor
is great choices. I'm saying that was a great I'm
it. I'm just saying an actor's got
to make choices. You know, you can't just go out
there and say lines. You got to know what you want,
(44:52):
how you're going to get it. You got to know what the
temperature is. You got to know where you are.
You got to know the social, political circumstances of what
you're working in. And then you have to finally
reach into your imagination and make choices about what you're
doing and how you're doing it. And, you know, the greatest
example of that is probably Marlon Brando.
(45:15):
And on the waterfront, when, youknow, she drops the glove and
that famous scene when he's talking to Edie outside of the
swing and you see him pick up the glove and put the glove on
his hand. Like that wasn't in the script.
That was an actor making a choice that that was an
(45:41):
accident. The glove wasn't supposed to
fall, Charlie Chaplin said. Acting is waiting for mistakes
and capitalizing on them. Wow, that's great.
And then the Godfather, you know, he's sitting there petting
that cat. That was just some stray cat
that was wandering around the set.
But he's a great actor. You know, he picks up the cat.
He loves animals. He befriends the cat.
(46:04):
He integrates it into the character and great actors make
great choices. And I think it would also take a
good director to let that go, right, To let it.
Keep. That's correct.
Keep. Letting it go?
Yeah, Don't stop. Don't still stick to your
vision, but be vulnerable and open enough.
(46:26):
And great directors do that. They listen to their actors and
they go, you know, let's try it,Let's see, you know, let's see
if it works. And, you know, I've had a great
life in this business. And, you know, many talented
(46:48):
people have come and gone and are still here because, you
know, artists have to rise up indifficult times like we're going
through now. We have to rise up and use our
voice and we have to speak the truth as we see it, Shakespeare
(47:10):
said. We are the chroniclers of our
time. We have to reflect the age and
body of our time to civilization.
And this is the time for artiststo speak up.
You know, you heard Bruce Springsteen in Europe, You know,
(47:33):
talk about the destruction of our constitution, and you've
heard Eddie Vedder and Dropkick Murphy and whoever, whatever
pedestal they can get on to speak the truth about what's
going on. You know, there is nothing cool
(47:54):
about shipping somebody to a foreign country without due
process made, no matter what side of the aisle you're on.
And there's nothing. You and me are white, OK, and
maybe Christian, I don't know. So we are lucky.
But that's not fair. You know, it's not fair to my
(48:14):
black and brown brothers and sisters that just because their
ancestors were born closer to the equator, they don't get a
fair shake, You know, OK, if you're a criminal, you know, you
should get punished. If you do bad things, you,
you're going to get punished. I mean, somebody's going to
catch up with you at some point.But, you know, we got to get
(48:35):
back to, to, to love some effectand empathy, man.
When did that become weakness? Yeah, I know, I know.
Yeah, it did. It's so strange to me.
I, I guess people call me a strange thinker, but I think
vulnerability, empathy, I think that those make some of the best
(48:55):
leaders and make best leadershipwhen you're actually able to put
yourself in somebody else's shoes and realize before you
make a decision, before you lookat anything that goes for
directors or anything, anybody. In leadership, absolutely
compassion. We don't need more money.
We need more compassion. Compassion, these veterans
(49:20):
cutting veterans. But these dudes went over there,
man. They risked their life and limb,
you know, in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I had a cousin that did three tours in in Afghanistan and you
know, he was dying of COVID. And they're like, well, the
insurance has run out. I'm like, fuck you.
(49:40):
The insurance. Go to the Veterans
Administration. They saved his life.
You know, that's not right that these guys.
OK, you know, I know there are people that take advantage of
programs and that has to be cut back.
But there's a way to do that, you know, properly and with
integrity. Investigate.
But given the all this worship of the rich man, you know, Oh,
(50:05):
well, you made $250 billion because I manipulated the stock
market, and you tell me in what universe that's right or fair.
Yeah, No, it's not. And when there's kids that are
starving that, that don't have the money to get into Community
College, that. Or much less, have a have a
(50:28):
decent elementary school or middle school high school to go
to. That's teachers I had.
I did an autograph signing in Chicago, and the gal that was,
you know, helping me, you know, collect the money, whatever.
I found out she's a teacher in Indiana, and she has to buy her
own school supplies. You know, I'm, like, here.
(50:50):
Way to fuck him. You're not supposed to.
What is it called? I'll pay for it.
Yeah. That's a big.
Problem. Yeah, come on, we gotta wake up.
You know what the original meaning of the word woke is?
The when it was originally started, its people to say that
(51:10):
word. Isn't it injustice toward?
I mean, it's been kind of turnedinto something that it wasn't
originally supposed to be. I'll tell you where it came
from. You know, the great
singer-songwriter Leadbelly. Heard the name.
Good night Irene, good night, right?
(51:31):
Heard that famous song Leadbelly.
He was a prisoner that sung his way to freedom.
Midnight, midnight, express. Midnight, anyway.
He wrote it. Yeah.
Express. Wasn't that it in midnight?
I think that's right. Yeah, I think it's.
(51:52):
But anyway, he was a prisoner. He was in prison for murdering
somebody and he was so great on the guitar that the warden let
him out and gave him his freedom.
And it was Leadbelly at a gig and he said y'all got to stay
woke to prejudice because it ain't going to sleep.
(52:14):
You got to stay woke to it. OK.
You got to stay woke to the factthat there's people that are,
you know, still filled with hatred toward the black man.
So don't take your freedom for granted.
You got to stay woke to it, OK? That was who coined that phrase.
(52:35):
And now it's been twisted into this, you know, nonsense, man.
It's not Where is the love, man?Where is the you know.
Love and connection and I think,you know, the government wants
us divided because then Yep, it's it.
If we were all connected, it would there they can control us.
You know it would be. We would be a united front.
(52:57):
It's right out of Hitler's playbook.
Divide and cut. First he blamed the Communists,
then he blamed the Jews, then the artists, then the
homosexual. Come on.
Everybody. It's always somebody else you
point the finger at. And then start a war because of
patriotism in the state and readGeorge Orwell.
(53:20):
You know 1984. The last thing they will take is
the orgasm. Once they have that, the state
will know that you are completely dedicated to the
nationalistic cause. And what's that?
What is a nationalistic what? What?
That's a bunch of people that have no courage and want you to
(53:43):
fight their battles for that's was that and the poor end up
doing it. Yeah, the poor that that that
class always suffers because of everything else that.
Goes Dad fought in the Second World War, man, he fought for
you and me to be able to sit here and say what we feel and.
God bless you. Yeah, man, that those people
(54:04):
deserve to call them suckers andlosers.
How this guy got elected. I don't mean to go off on a
political ramp, but it's really hard for me to keep it down.
I mean, the point is, you know, you've been kind enough to
invite me onto your show to promote my play Lucky Man, A
(54:25):
Warrior's Journey, which opens June 5th and plays to June 22nd.
Wednesday through Saturday at 8:00, Sunday at 3 the Gene
Frankel Theatre in New York City, 24 Bond St.
And if any folks come, I'll bring Warriors and Thing photos.
(54:46):
And if they come to the show, I'll give them a free
autographed photo, photo from either one of those movies as a,
you know, just to say thank you for coming.
That's awesome. I I wanted to talk about about
that you, I know you're going totalk about some really dark
themes that have happened in your life and touch on some
(55:08):
things did. How important do you think, do
you think this is Also, like we spoke about earlier, it's going
to be a cautionary tale to maybesome people who are either
suffering with addiction or who may be actors who could be going
through some of the things that you went through in life.
Is is that your hope that you will touch someone out there and
and stop some maybe a a mistake that they may try to go down the
(55:31):
wrong Rd. Oh, I hope I can save somebody
from making the mistakes I've made, man, because you know, you
can save yourself so much pain by just not believing that lie.
You know, it's a lie and we fallinto it because it's easy.
(55:53):
And my play is a morality tale about love, loss and redemption.
That's that you know, things maynot work out exactly the way you
want, but if you learn to love life and have faith in life,
(56:13):
then things tend to work out foryou.
But if you go and get yourself addicted to a substance,
alcohol, drugs, you know, you'regoing to make your life a lot
more difficult than it needs to be.
And you're going to harm the people around you and damage
your children and your friendships and your future,
(56:38):
your, your professional future. And there's not enough attention
paid to it. You know, we just put everybody
in prison. I mean, what I said to a cop
once, what would prisons be likeif there was no such thing as
alcohol and drugs? He said empty 99.99% of the
(56:59):
people in prison. Oh, do they deserve it?
Do they deserve? Should we punish them?
You know, they need help men that they they go out and rob
and steal because they don't think there's anything other
choice for them but to sell drugs.
And what would you do? Work at Starbucks or make 100
grand selling drugs? Yeah.
(57:20):
Especially if you have kids or you have a family and then
you're desperate to feed those. I mean, I'm not saying at all
that it's that it's that it's right.
It's not the right thing to do, but you know you got to survive.
Yeah, that's. You got to take care of your
own. Where again, is the empathy?
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Is this play very therapeutic
(57:41):
for you when you to get out? Is it kind of what kind of
feelings come over you when you?Oh, man, it's, first of all,
there's a lot of humor in it too, OK.
I mean, I am, you know, I'm a good actor, man, and I bring a
lot of color and life to it. And I hopefully am able to get
(58:05):
the audience to laugh with me and to enjoy my foibles.
And at the same time, yes, it's emotionally draining.
And I, I sacrificed myself on the altar of truth, you know, in
(58:26):
service of mankind because I gota purpose here, and that's to
help people, you know, And I gota little bit of talent.
And I want to, you know, propagate that talent as much as
I, I can and see if I can, you know, make something to myself
(58:50):
with this story. It's a beautiful story.
And it's a true story. Yeah.
That's why it's so amazing, yeah.
There's not a word in this storythat's untrue.
Every single word is absolutely factual.
I just with a great director, Joe Denisi from the Actors
Studio, which is where I startedthe project as a experiment.
(59:15):
I'm a member of the Actors Studio since 1985, both as an
actor and a playwright and director.
And fortunately, Estelle Parsonsallowed me to put up the first
rendition of it and gave me, I got such great encouragement
from actresses like a Catherine Norducci, famous actors from
(59:36):
Sopranos now doing all kinds of things.
Estelle Parsons giving me so much encouragement to go back
in, get under the hood, rebuild the engine, and then to have
this, this brilliant director, Joe Denisi, guide me.
I mean, he's a real actor's director and a real storyteller.
(59:59):
So it's shaped and refined and streamlined.
So 85 minutes of just story, lovely music, story build,
lovely music, you know, crescendo, catharsis, de numa
and hopefully message. That's incredible.
(01:00:20):
I think we, we need that messagetoday because we're all going
through it in one way or the other.
We've got things that we're going through and dealing with.
And like any great story, this play, it's the, the story arc
you end up in redemption and it's a good ending.
So I think anybody please check it out, especially if you're in
New York, It's it's a great, a great story.
(01:00:41):
You have an amazing story, my friend.
I have loved talking to you. It's an honor and learn a lot
from you. It's just.
Incredible. If I can never do anything to
help you out, you let me know. Hey, vice versa my friend.
And please come back anytime youwant to, there's much more to
talk about. All right, Jason, thank you for
having me, mate. Happiness Sold Separately is
(01:01:03):
created and hosted by Jason Hensley and is produced by
Makash Films. Narration by Lauren Gobis If you
or someone you know is in crisisand needs immediate help, call
the National Mental Health Hotline at 866-903-3787.
(01:01:24):
We would be honored if you wouldrate, share and subscribe.
Bye. That's a good one.
Coming up, I think that, you know, one of the best directors
I ever worked with was John Carpenter.
John, you know, it was tough. Don't get me wrong.
He has no pair of wet socks. This guy, he knows what he wants
and he knows how to get it, and he's very firm and he's very
(00:22):
disciplined. And simultaneously it creates an
atmosphere that makes you feel like you're at a party, that
you're just there to have fun. You know, he and Kurt Russell
had that quality of it's like hard work and good times.
Simultaneously, it's the best ofall possible world.
(00:45):
This episode is sponsored by Better Help.
A couple years ago, I went through one of the toughest
health episodes of my life. I found myself in a really,
really dark place and honestly, it felt like the world was
caving in all around me. I didn't know where to turn or
what to do. I knew I needed something, but
it just seemed like nothing was working.
And therapy, Well, therapy didn't work for me in the past.
(01:07):
But then, with the encouragementof my wife, I decided to give
today's sponsor, Better Help a try, even though I was a little
skeptical at first. And let me say, it was so
different. I connected with a therapist and
simply talking with her helped me lower my anxiety in ways I
didn't expect. Sometimes it's just about having
someone outside of your family to listen, and Better Help made
that so easy. What I love most about Better
(01:30):
Help is the flexibility. You don't have to commit to
months of sessions if that's notwhat you need.
Sometimes a few sessions are allit takes to get some relief, to
take the edge off and start feeling a little better.
Plus, they have a wide selectionof therapist.
You can find someone you really click with, and if you don't,
you can switch therapist anytimeat no extra cost.
(01:52):
If you're like me, someone who gets stuck in their head a lot,
better help might be the answer.And right now, if you visit
betterhelp.com/sold separately or use the link in this video's
description, you can get 10% offyour first month.
So give it a try. Remember, you can't take care of
anyone else in your life until you take care of yourself.
(02:24):
Auto sequence start in 54321 andnow I'm with the show.
I am Thomas G Waits, an actor, director, writer, teacher,
songwriter, singer and musician in New York City, and my
(02:47):
happiness is all of what I just mentioned aforementioned acting,
directing, writing, teaching, songwriting and singing and
being a musician, that brings megreat happiness.
Mr. Tom Waits, thanks so much for spending some time with me.
I'm honored. Thank you, Jason.
Thanks for having me man. Absolutely, man, I'm excited to
(03:08):
to talk to you. You've had such an amazing
career, film, television, on stage.
I guess a lot of people though, know you, most from the
Warriors. And The thing is that what you
get mostly when you talk to people.
Yeah, that's mostly what I get from people is the The Warriors,
(03:29):
the iconic groundbreaking film released in February of 1979,
and John Carpenter's, I think brilliant remake of The Thing,
which, you know, is just they'reboth cult classics.
And, you know, I say this in my one man show, Lucky Man, playing
(03:55):
in New York City on 24 Bond St. the Gene Frankel Theatre,
opening June 5th. I say this in the film, you
know, I mean in the play, a lot of actors, you know, friends of
mine that I've come up with havedone way better than me
financially, name recognition, critical, but very few have been
(04:16):
able to say they've been in not one, but two cult classics.
Absolutely. I mean, yeah, you, there's not
many people who can say that andnot many people who can say that
continually with all of your body of work, you've worked
pretty regularly as a working actor all the way through.
There's not many people who can say that either.
That's right, and I'm still going strong.
(04:36):
I'm just getting started. Yeah, there you go, man.
That's that's right. You probably some told some of
these stories 100 times. So thank you for indulging me
for some of these things we'll get into.
But first I just wanted to talk to you about how did you get
this love of acting and storytelling?
What did that start in school? No, it actually is rather
(04:59):
depraved. So I was a kid and I really was
in a gang and I was headed for the you know, I grew up on the
wrong side of the tracks and I Iwas headed, I don't know, you
know, the cops have been in my house three times.
I was in going in the wrong direction and the universe in
(05:19):
her nippotent beneficence, sent a car to smash into me and break
my femur bone in half. Your femur's, your strongest
bone, split my skull, rupture myspleen, my kidneys.
So I was laid up in the hospitals, you know, pretty
(05:42):
serious condition for a long time as a kid, you know, about
15 years old. And while I was in there, you
know, back then you could smoke in the hospital.
So right before bed they would shoot me up with Demerol and I'd
light up a Marlboro and I'd lookout the window and be like, wow,
(06:03):
life is fucking groovy even whenyou have pins in your legs, You
know what I mean? Yeah, no, no pain.
So about a week or so goes by and they don't give me the
Demerol shot. They give me two little, you
know, aspirin or something. So I pull the emergency cord and
I start going my leg, you know, putting on this big performance
(06:28):
and she runs and gets the Demerol and shoots me up about 3
days. Three days later the the
orthopedic surgeon came in and he's looking at the chart and
he's like, wait a minute, he's not supposed to be getting this
much Demerol. And the nurse who was a neighbor
of mine, Nurse Pat Richardson, she lived around the back, lived
(06:49):
around the block for me. She looks at me and she's like
you, son of a gun. You ought to be an actor.
And a light bulb went off over my head.
And I thought, well, I'm not going to be running the streets
anymore. I certainly can't fight without
any legs because we did a lot ofthat.
I can't play sports, which was my dream.
(07:10):
I better find something to get into.
Yeah, so I started watching movies, Jason, you know, like,
and I mean great old films. And then seeing myself, you
know, as Alan Ladd or James Cagney or John Garfield, I
started identifying. And then I thought, wow, that
(07:31):
would be a cool thing to get getinto.
And then I discovered the great Marlon Brando and Al Pacino and
you know. Who you worked with, right, You
worked with, with Al Pacino. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
I went on to work with some of the people that I, I just
thought were like in another stratosphere, but that was where
(07:56):
it started. Yeah.
And then when I went back to high school, I was like, you
know, on crutches and, you know,where we're all the girls in the
drama club. Right.
So I joined the drama club and you know, I did a few parts in
high school and then I did a couple of I, I went to Community
College because someone thankfully taught me out of
(08:18):
joining the Army, which would not have been good for me.
And in Community College, I auditioned for and got the lead
in like practically every play they did.
And the teachers there said, whydon't you audition for
Juilliard? And I said, Juilliard, that's a
music school, isn't it? And they said, no, they have an
(08:40):
acting program now. So I auditioned for and got a
scholarship to Juilliard when I was 18.
Yeah. And that's basically it.
The the initial trajectory of it, yeah.
So you can honestly say that it it really saved your life,
right? I mean, acting back in that in
(09:00):
that time you were kind of headed.
You didn't know where you were going to be and being in a gang
and. Literally, and, and a part I'm
leaving out of the story, a significant part is the fact
that when I was recovering from my car accident, I was in a a
body cast from my chest all the way down.
Yet, mate, I've really banged myself up.
(09:21):
And my oldest sister Kathleen was my personal hero.
She took me to the drive in to see Franco Zeffirelli's Romeo
and Juliet. And now all of a sudden, you
know, this tough guy mask meltedaway and I was so moved that I
wept, you know, for everything my life.
(09:43):
And I went home the next day andI memorized the balcony scene,
both characters. Wow.
And I use that to get into Juilliard.
So Shakespeare got me out of theghetto.
That is awesome. What happened at Juilliard.
Did did that go well? Did you?
Did you did that project you? On or no, I fucked that up too.
(10:06):
I mean, they were so good to me,you know, they were so patient
with me. They knew that I was clearly a
troubled, a rebel without a pause.
I, I, I, I just was a, a troubled kid, you know.
I mean, you know, I've tried to figure out some reasons why
psychologically, but you know, anyway, they were very patient
(10:29):
with me. And I barely hung on by the skin
of my teeth for the first three years.
And then finally, you know, theygot sick of me and kicked me
out. But the training that I got and
the discipline that I learned, it's a rigorous program.
Yeah. You're in dance class, 9:00,
voice class, 10:00 speech class,1112 o'clock lunch break. 2:00,
(10:53):
three hour acting class, 2 hour dinner break.
And then you rehearse a play every night.
I mean, all year long. And back when I was doing it,
you had to take academic coursesin between all that.
Wow. So I was so blessed, Jason.
I'm just one of the, I call my play lucky man.
I was so lucky at that formidable age of 18/19/20.
(11:19):
I was impressed with not only the greatest musicians in the
world, but the greatest voice teachers, the greatest acting
teachers, the some of the greatest actors.
I mean, I used to watch Mandy Patinkin and Bill Hurt and Robin
Williams was in my class. I'd watched them rehearsing
plays. So, you know, despite myself, I
(11:40):
learned discipline and I was a hard worker.
I mean, I think I got that from my dad.
You know, he was a mechanic and he raised 7 kids and he always
had three jobs, you know, And I saw that work ethic and that
finally sort of integrated itself into my own consciousness
(12:01):
and I applied it to my early work as an actor, which helped
me to get, I think, a lot of roles initially that I went in
for. Wow, we we we take a lot from
from what we observed only as kids and her parents hard
workers and determined. No doubt, you know, and we may
not have had much money, but we had a lot of love.
(12:23):
And, you know, my dad was a goodman, you know, hard.
A lot of guys today would have seven kids and you know they'd
be on the run. Yeah.
You know, men, in particular, men have lost that sense of
responsibility. But this was a guy that wouldn't
have it. You know, he was going to do
(12:44):
what he was supposed to do, which was raise his children.
And my mom was left at the task of disciplining someone like me,
which was not an easy job. And God rest her soul, you know,
she was a great woman. And I'm very fortunate to have
come from that kind of stock, you know, of, you know, work
(13:08):
hard and maybe you'll get someplace.
Work hard and maybe you'll get lucky.
Yeah. Luck has to meet the
preparation, right? Isn't that what they say?
You work hard and prepare and. Right.
That luck comes about. You had great parents it sounds
like. What?
You had great parents it sounds like.
Yeah, man, I had, I had good parents.
(13:29):
I I mean, they were, you know, they had their problems, but you
know, they were there. Yeah.
Like you knew when you came homeat night, they were there.
Yeah, you. Know.
Wanted to be there, You didn't do your homework.
But love is not always kind and gentle.
(13:51):
No, you know, I know from raising my own children
sometimes, you know, you got to be tough with kids.
You know they'll walk all over you.
Yep, absolutely. Yep.
That's. My parents had character.
Well, going back from SO let's talk about the Warriors.
You'd already done several movies before that came about,
(14:13):
right? How did that audition come up
for the Warriors? OK, so around this time is like
19771978 New York City. I had done, you know, a couple
of plays of note. Simon Gray's new play Molly I
did at the Splato Festival. That got a lot of attention.
You know, all the critics came to review it.
(14:37):
I remembered Time magazine came to review it and said Tom Waits,
who plays Oliver in Molly is cute.
But frankly, I'm not impressed. Oh no, You know how critics can
be. And and then after that, I did a
movie for PBS called Pity the Poor Soldier, and that was a
(15:01):
Revolutionary War film. And then I did a film called On
the Yard with the great actor John Hurd and many great actors,
Dominic Kinasey, Richie Bright, I mean the list goes on and on.
The great actors that were in that film.
James Remar from The Warriors was in it.
Anyway, it was a movie really that I auditioned for the
(15:22):
supporting character. But when they saw him back then,
they did screen tests, 35mm film, and they were watching the
rushes and they went. I was 22, mate.
And they go, no, that's the mainguy.
That's chilly. That's the main character.
And you know, frankly, that's been a blessing and curse my
(15:45):
whole life because, you know, I tend to pull a lot of focus.
I don't mean to. I'm just doing my thing.
So when I play the main characters and things, I tend to
fare better than when I'm, you know, hey, the body's over here,
you know, it just doesn't work well because it's like, who is
(16:06):
that guy? You know, I'm a little bit too
interesting for my own good sometimes.
But that just comes in. Yeah, I did do On the Yard, and
there was some hype about that coming out because Joan Micklin
Silver had won the Oscar award. Carol Kane, Hester Street.
They produced that film. Her husband Ray directed it, Ray
(16:29):
Silver and and they came into town with the Warriors and the
Wanderers. And Scott Rudin, who was a
casting director at the time, took me out to dinner and to a
Broadway show and he said, you know, tomorrow you're going to
be offered the Warriors and the Wanderers.
You have to decide which one youwant to do.
(16:54):
I mean, how many 23 year old kids get opportunities like
this? Yeah, to make a decision to have
to make a decision what you're going to go.
For Yeah Yeah. And I chose to do The Warriors,
even though Philip Kaufman is a great director, because I don't
(17:15):
know why I instinct. I really liked Walter.
And it's such a shame that I sabotaged that relationship
because I, I really liked him asa man and as a filmmaker.
And so I got the audition. I got called back.
I got called back again. And then it was between me and
(17:36):
another guy. I think it was Alan Rosenberg,
if I'm not mistaken. And then we did the final call
back with Deborah Van Volkenburg, who plays was
supposed to play Fox's love interest.
And Deborah is as wonderful a person as she's an actor.
And she and I did the final callback to see if there was
chemistry between US, and there was.
(17:57):
And I got the part and she got the part.
However, our ultimate experiencewith the film turned out to be
quite different. Yeah, I was going to.
I was going to ask you about some of that One thing I wanted
to ask you about. I was really interested in you.
I've heard you mention the conditions in in on set, that it
was very difficult. You were shooting one of the
(18:18):
hottest summers. You were shooting long nights.
Talk about that a little bit. You were running around very
physical film, right? Oh my God, it was brutal, right?
I mean, I don't mean to whine a lot of people, you know, imagine
if you're in Ukraine, you're losing this guy complaining.
But you know, it was hot and it was all night shoots.
(18:41):
So you showed up work at six O clock and you work till 6:00 in
the morning five nights a week, week in, week out, day in, day
out. So you slept during the day and
you worked at night, which is not natural, first of all.
Secondly, it was a lot of running and running and running.
And it was a physically, but I was in pretty good shape.
(19:04):
I didn't mind that so much. The conditions were difficult
because they also tried to squeeze all eight of us into one
trailer. Imagine no air conditioning, 8
guys sweating like, you know, itwas.
And so guess who opens his big mouth and says, hey, wait a
minute, you can't do this to us.Here he is.
(19:28):
You know, he's trouble already. Like, you know, wait a minute.
I mean, you got to give us something, you know, it should
be like two or three to a trailer you can't put.
So they gave us another one and then I think later on they
brought in. But that was one of the reasons
why it was difficult and it was a very stressful environment.
(19:49):
You know, Walter Hill, for whom I've developed tremendous
sympathy in retrospect because a, I've directed my own film and
I know what it's like to work with actors that are pain in the
fucking neck. And I I don't know how he put up
with me as long as he did, but. His most recent film, The
(20:11):
Driver, had tanked at the box office.
Not good. He's way over budget.
He's way behind schedule. All the suits from Paramount are
breathing down his neck. And here's the guy just trying
to make a movie. His vision.
And if you see the film, you seethis futuristic, clockwork,
(20:32):
orangish balletic, almost cartoon of a film.
It was so stylized. And I had no idea that that was
the movie we were going to make.You know, I thought we were
going to make a movie about how love could rise above the
violence in the city streets. And yeah, you know, I was.
(20:53):
I was a love child from the 70s,you know.
It was a beautiful film. I mean, the way it was shot and
the way that the themes that played through, like you said,
that some of that on the street life.
It was it was a great for its time.
I'm sure that's you know, it's it's very iconic.
Did you think that when you're making it, or was it just?
Work for you when you're no idea.
(21:15):
We we didn't Andrew Laszlo, who gets very little credit, was the
cinematographer and he was firstof all, the kindest, gentlest
man. I, I don't know if he was from,
you know, the Baltic somewhere. He he would check maybe, I don't
know, but he very slight accident and just the gentlest,
(21:39):
sweetest man under brutal conditions for them too is not
easy for the crew either. No crybaby actors are always
like the first ones to go Wham Wham, Wham.
But the crew are out there sweating too.
And Andrew, Andrew and Andrew Laszlo and Walter set up these
very difficult shots, you know, and they wet the streets down to
(22:04):
make them glimmer. And, you know, I think they had
an idea that was ahead of its time.
Nobody had made a film like thatuntil that time.
And of course, it, you know, gave Walter a great career and
James Remar and David Pastor Kelly and Deborah it it, it
(22:25):
helped many people's career and it would have helped mine had I
not been a pain in the ass. What was that friction between
you and and Walter? Was it just the the conditions?
Did you offer your, I think I read somewhere where you wanted
to know kind of like where the direction where he was going at
the time and did he not take kindly to that?
(22:49):
No, but I to be specific, when adirector is making a film, the
last thing in the world he wantsto do is start hearing about
what your motivation is, what you think that you think you
need a close up. Now, I didn't mean to be
(23:10):
difficult. You know, I'm not a bad kid.
I was never a I'll intentioned person, but I was disturbing him
and becoming disruptive to the process of an already difficult
film. And and you know, he finally,
after seven weeks, had enough ofme and told Craig Baxley, the
(23:34):
fight choreographer, get rid of him.
I don't care how you do it, justkill him off.
I can't stand it, you know, but I created that and you know, and
I I take responsibility for that.
Now, if you want to hear some what of a other side of the
(23:57):
story, I really thought we were making a story about love.
At least that's the way he and Italked about and that's why I
took that film. That love, the greatest force in
the world, can rise above even violence.
And while he agreed with me, that wasn't what he intended or
(24:21):
did. And I had no right to question
his vision. I'm not the director and I was
not, you know, Marlon Brand. I mean, who did I think I was?
So it was a case of not knowing your place in the chain of
command. You know what I mean?
It's the writer, the producers, the the directors at the top of
(24:45):
the chain, actually in film. And then the actors are
somewhere underneath. And had I, you know, perhaps
called my agent, if I really wastroubled, that would have been a
much better choice. But, you know, I obviously chose
to, you know, piss this guy off.And I have remorse about that.
(25:10):
I have healthy remorse, which means, you know, I did it.
I'm really sorry that I did it. I've paid and paid and paid the
price for having done it. But hopefully in the ultimate
scheme of life, Jason, he's forgiven me.
(25:35):
And if that's the case, then in some ways it's all worth it
because life itself, as Plato said, is all about forgiveness.
And that's what happened. And that's how it happened.
And, you know, I wrote to him a couple times and tried to make
(25:56):
amends. And he was very gracious.
You know, he even brought me in to audition for Johnny Hanson.
You know, he didn't have to do that.
He accepted a call from his production office from me.
And, you know, and I said, you know, listen, I'm really sorry.
He said, it's OK. It's just really bothered me,
(26:18):
you know? And then you took your name off
the film. Oh, yeah.
And what, you know, I'm. I'm going to write a book, What
Not to Do by Thomas T Wade. You know, buy high, sell low,
you know. Yeah.
Was that just, was that kind of being pissed off and just taking
your name off the the? Film, you know, and I have a
(26:40):
disease called alcoholism and I'm in recovery now for a long
time. But when we are active in that
disease, we have a tendency to ingratiate ourselves with
grandiosity. You know, we tend to think that
we're like the greatest, you know, and that's very unhealthy,
(27:06):
you know, and it's very difficult for your family and
people around you. But I just was like, I'll get
that. You know, I thought, I guess I
thought I I'd read somewhere that Peter O'Toole did that.
And you know, I'll show them, you know, they'll be sorry that
they but they weren't. But, you know, you learn these
(27:30):
lessons in life and that's why I'm doing this play that perhaps
I can be of service in some way with these lessons to try to
tell them in a poetically dramatic, excuse me, dramatic
and emotional way that that reaches the heart of of human
(27:53):
beings and helps them understandwhat it is like to be an addict
and what it's like to find recovery.
And my good friend John Goodman was fortunate enough to, you
know, help provide the funds to put this little 14 run X, you
(28:14):
know, experiment up in hopes that, you know, someone will
come along and give it a life off Broadway.
Because I really feel it. It would be especially great
for, I mean, it's mental health really essentially, isn't it?
It's entertaining because, you know, everyone wants to know
about show business and movie stars and Kurt Russell and Al
(28:35):
Pacino and Deborah Harry and allthe other, you know, people that
I've worked with in my life. And, and that's great.
But there's a message to you know, about mental health and
you know, no matter what side ofthe political aisle you're on,
and believe me, I'm about as farleft as you can get before mouse
(28:58):
a tongue. You know, we all have friends
with mental health issues, man or children or.
And I think we all go through some instance of that in our
lives. I mean, what we go through in
life. And like you said, no matter
what political party or what your job is, it's we're all
(29:19):
connected, we're all in this together.
And. No doubt.
I say you strike me as very spiritual and loving.
I think that even from the beginning, you, you, like you
said with the warriors, you're really into having a film that
would rise above everything elseand let live love shine through.
So I think that's, that's a common theme and, and, and what
(29:40):
you're trying to do and, and your life in general, just
that's the most powerful emotionout there, you know?
I believe in love, man. I believe in it, you know,
Whether it's love for your children, love for your spouse,
love for your fiance, love for your family, love for your
(30:00):
hobbies, love for your friends, any kind of love, you know, sets
you off balance for a moment because it's the most powerful
force. It can change.
You know, they've done studies where they take three different
(30:20):
plants and one of them they ignore and another one they say,
I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.
And another one they say I love you, I love you, I love you.
And the one that's ignored lastsa little bit longer.
The one that says I hate you dies right away.
And the one that says, you know,here's I love you, I love you, I
love you. Every day blossoms into, you
(30:43):
know, something beautiful. And if we.
I know it must sound like, you know.
Oh, like a hippie, you know, whydon't you get with it?
You know, this is 2025. You know, it's all about money
and what you have and material, but but it is not you.
You're not going to take any money with you when you go.
(31:04):
No, you're not going to take your houses and cars and your
worship of the dollar. You're going to, I think, lay on
your deathbed and go, you know, did I love enough and the last
did I help? Did I help anybody?
The last thing you want is regret on that deathbed.
You know you. Don't dig it.
(31:24):
I, I totally agree. I I think we we need as a
society to come together more and and rise above what there's
much more that makes us have things in common than there are
differences, I think and. Absolutely made.
We're so much the same. I don't care if you live in
Bangladesh. I don't care if you live in poor
(31:46):
people in Gaza. I don't care if you live in
Israel. I don't care where you live,
man. We're the same.
I play AC chord on the piano andyou're going to, you know, go.
Hey, I know that sound that connects us to what made us the
music Is is is a gift from the gods.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, that's I'm, I'm right there
(32:10):
with you. How did you get to know?
When did you first meet John Goodman?
How did that relationship? John, John is such a character.
Oh boy. He was a wild man back in the
day. So John and I would I, I think
it started out the first time wemet.
We did ATV film called The Face of Rage, and Danny Glover was in
(32:36):
it, John Glover was in it, and John Goodman and I were in it.
And, you know, we were both big drinkers at the time, so we had
spend a lot of time at the bar and then we'd end up, you know,
in his hotel room staying up allnight.
And, you know, he opened up to me on several occasions and
(32:56):
expressed his deepest feelings and we bonded.
And then I wanted to be a writerfrom a long time ago.
It's taken me a long time to getbetter at it, but my very first
play was a play called Johnny and I did it at the Actors
Studio and John Goodman did the reading of it and we bonded
(33:20):
again there. And he's just such a, he's just
such a funny and fun guy, and he's quite musical, you know?
He's. Very gifted musically and, you
know, he's way up here and I'm in a obviously a different
place. And I reached out to him and I
said, you know, hey, I want to do this play John and, you know,
(33:43):
would you help me? And he's like, I'm in.
That's awesome. It's really, it speaks volumes
about a man like that, that he would even take my call.
I mean, he's a international superstar, basically.
And, you know, and I'm an artistthat lives in New York, you
(34:03):
know, but that he would have thehumility, frankly, to take my
call and to help share this experience so that we might help
other people. Yeah, no, good friends are are
hard to find like that when you can just pick up the phone and
you can just immediately go backinto the old days.
(34:24):
You know, we've had friends likethat where you just you may not
talk for a while, but soon as you talk again, it just
everything reconnects. It's.
Beautiful friendship is a beautiful thing.
You know, we're talking about mental health and do you feel
like on a film set or TV, do youfeel like the emotions are so
high there budgets, time constraints?
(34:46):
Is it hard to stay positive whenyou're in the mix and you're
trying to get things done? Is it?
I'm sure there are, there are countless personalities on a set
and how do you deal with that? How do you stay positive?
How do you stay motivated when you know people are trying?
That pride gets in the way with some people and you're trying to
kind of maneuver all that. Is it hard to stay upbeat?
(35:09):
Yeah, man, you know, making a movie is unlike any other
experience in life. And people, you know, react to
it very differently. But staying calm and staying
(35:30):
kind is critical. I think that, you know, one of
the best directors I ever workedwith was John Carpenter.
John, you know, it was tough. Don't get me wrong.
He is no pair of wet socks, thisguy.
(35:51):
He's, he knows what he wants andhe knows how to get it.
And he's very firm and he's verydisciplined.
And simultaneously he, he creates an atmosphere that makes
you feel like you're at a party that, that you're just there to
have fun. You know, he and Kurt Russell
(36:14):
had that quality of it's like hard work and good times
simultaneously. It's the best of all possible
worlds. And I'm sure that Walter is the
same way, but those conditions were very difficult for him, and
I certainly didn't help anything.
And working for studios, you know, even back then, and
(36:38):
they're difficult, man, it's a lot of money on the line.
And they expected the Warriors to be like Saturday Night Fever,
let's release it in February, it'll go right to VHS and nobody
will ever hear of it again. Well, they weren't for a big
surprise in both instances where2 movies that they
underestimated ended up making them literally billions.
(37:01):
Of dollars. Oh yeah, And you, when you speak
of John Carpenter, you're talking about the thing did
where did you guys, where did you shoot that?
We we shot most of it on the sound stage in Universal.
That was an interesting. I'm sorry.
(37:21):
No, it, it was, you know, it waslike, yeah, I mean, I'm a New
York actor cutting my teeth and doing 8 shows a week, you know,
as if you can get the work. Yeah, and auditioning, pounding
the pavement. Rejection is your daily bread.
And now all of a sudden, I'm driving to work in a 1981 brand
(37:41):
new Chevrolet Corvette Stingray.I got money in my pocket.
I got a parking space. You know, it was like, you know,
completely the opposite of what I was accustomed to.
And we were treated like gold. Isn't it funny how life ebbs and
flows like that? I mean, we, we think we're down
(38:02):
and out and then just takes a phone call or a project and
then. Yeah, yeah.
And then, you know, we shot 2 weeks in Hide or Alaska, which
was rather difficult. It was difficult, yeah.
You know, I tell this story in my play.
I probably shouldn't give it away, but maybe it'll make
(38:24):
people come and see it. I'll do anything to get people
and come and see it. I mean, anything short of
prostituting myself. You know, we had to fly to
Anchorage, AK and then take a six hour bus ride to base camp
(38:45):
over the mountains in the middleof the night.
And Hyder, Alaska is a town on the border of British Columbia
in Alaska. And there's no law there.
If a murder happens, the Canadian Mounties try to pass it
off on the Alaskan state troopers and vice versa.
French Canadian coal miners working all day and drinking all
(39:05):
night. And we have to take this bus
ride and we're all partying in the back seat drinking, you
know, smoking bong hits and, andyou look out the window and it's
like hundreds of feet down. Ice, snow covered boulders.
So we're climbing. This one mountain is 6000 feet
(39:26):
above sea level and it starts snowing.
The roads are icy and then suddenly there's a white out.
Oh Dang. And you can't see 2 feet in
front of you and the bus slips off the road, The left rear
wheel slips off the road and youlook out the window and there's
(39:51):
nothing but snow covered boulders.
Oh man. Thousands of feet down.
You know, a minute ago we're like, yeah.
And now we're like, what the fuck?
Perched on this icy Cliff. So Kurt sort of becomes Mack,
(40:12):
the main character in The Thing,and he walks to the front of the
bus slowly, carefully, gently. All right, who's in the back of
the bus? Where do all bad Catholic boys
that despise themselves sit? The bag of the bus.
(40:32):
All right, windows, get on your hands and knees and climb to the
front of the bus. So I slowly crawl to the front
of the bus. Everybody else perfectly still.
I get to the front of the bus, Iget out one by one, we crawl off
the bus, and we push the bus back up onto the highway.
(40:52):
The weather clears. We show up at base camp at 5:30
AM. And there in the blue dawn
light, with a cigarette hanging out of the corner of his mouth,
20° below 0, Thank you very much.
No hat is John Carpenter like a Field Marshall general waiting
for his men. And 1 by 1.
(41:13):
He shakes our hands and calls usby name as we get off the bus.
I never seen a director do anything.
Oh wow, had he heard anything about the accident before you
guys got there? Yeah, no cell phones in 1981,
right? The walkie talkies didn't work.
He didn't have any idea what we'd just been through.
Oh. Man.
(41:34):
But he was there. He was there to greet you.
He was there. The leader.
Sub 0 temperature. He's a leader.
He's a, he's a, he's a leader. He is with his men.
That is, you don't find a lot ofdirectors like that, right?
No, you don't find a lot of people.
No, exactly. I I love you mentioned Windows.
(41:55):
It's a great story of how that that name came about.
You tell tell that story about how the character got that name.
So, you know, I had been doing American Buffalo, the play with
Al Pacino for almost a year, a little over here actually with
the Long Wharf production. And you know, I said to my Asian
(42:18):
look, you know, 8 shows a week, that's a dark play.
I mean, I don't know if you knowthe play, but about three guys
trying to rob a junction, you know, three guys in a junk shop
planning a robbery and and ma'amand you know, it won the
Pulitzer Prize and he's a brilliant writer, but it is a
very dark message, you know, theme, but was amazing to watch
(42:44):
live. I mean, he does comic violence
better than anyone, you know, and we were in a he was smart
because we put it in a small 550seat theater that was in not in
the round, but in three quarter round.
So very intimate. They were very intimate.
(43:05):
And so you really felt his power.
And it was a big hit. And John and Kurt had come to
see it. And that's why they asked me to
audition. And, you know, I'm playing this
character. And I'm like, you know, this guy
really doesn't want to be here. You know, he, like me, secretly
(43:26):
wants to be a movie. So I bought these sunglasses,
these green sunglasses, and I started wearing them drawers.
And I'm reading my character with these green sunglasses on
inside in my hurdles. And finally I've got to go,
John. From now on, I want everybody to
(43:48):
call me Windows. So John takes the drag of a
cigarette, looks up at the ceiling, blows the smoke out,
looks down the floor. He's the thinking man and he's
thinking and he looks at the glasses and he looks at me and
(44:09):
he goes, OK, from now on, everybody, Tommy wants us to
call them Windows. Let's get back to work.
Thus the birth of Windows. And it's the only movie to have
Windows and Mac in the same filmbefore the invention of
computers. That's awesome.
How important is that to kind ofgive your your little personal
(44:31):
tweak like that to a character? Do you love doing that?
Do you love? Bringing something?
Yeah, I do. I think what makes a great actor
is great choices. I'm saying that was a great I'm
it. I'm just saying an actor's got
to make choices. You know, you can't just go out
there and say lines. You got to know what you want,
(44:52):
how you're going to get it. You got to know what the
temperature is. You got to know where you are.
You got to know the social, political circumstances of what
you're working in. And then you have to finally
reach into your imagination and make choices about what you're
doing and how you're doing it. And, you know, the greatest
example of that is probably Marlon Brando.
(45:15):
And on the waterfront, when, youknow, she drops the glove and
that famous scene when he's talking to Edie outside of the
swing and you see him pick up the glove and put the glove on
his hand. Like that wasn't in the script.
That was an actor making a choice that that was an
(45:41):
accident. The glove wasn't supposed to
fall, Charlie Chaplin said. Acting is waiting for mistakes
and capitalizing on them. Wow, that's great.
And then the Godfather, you know, he's sitting there petting
that cat. That was just some stray cat
that was wandering around the set.
But he's a great actor. You know, he picks up the cat.
He loves animals. He befriends the cat.
(46:04):
He integrates it into the character and great actors make
great choices. And I think it would also take a
good director to let that go, right, To let it.
Keep. That's correct.
Keep. Letting it go?
Yeah, Don't stop. Don't still stick to your
vision, but be vulnerable and open enough.
(46:26):
And great directors do that. They listen to their actors and
they go, you know, let's try it,Let's see, you know, let's see
if it works. And, you know, I've had a great
life in this business. And, you know, many talented
(46:48):
people have come and gone and are still here because, you
know, artists have to rise up indifficult times like we're going
through now. We have to rise up and use our
voice and we have to speak the truth as we see it, Shakespeare
(47:10):
said. We are the chroniclers of our
time. We have to reflect the age and
body of our time to civilization.
And this is the time for artiststo speak up.
You know, you heard Bruce Springsteen in Europe, You know,
(47:33):
talk about the destruction of our constitution, and you've
heard Eddie Vedder and Dropkick Murphy and whoever, whatever
pedestal they can get on to speak the truth about what's
going on. You know, there is nothing cool
(47:54):
about shipping somebody to a foreign country without due
process made, no matter what side of the aisle you're on.
And there's nothing. You and me are white, OK, and
maybe Christian, I don't know. So we are lucky.
But that's not fair. You know, it's not fair to my
(48:14):
black and brown brothers and sisters that just because their
ancestors were born closer to the equator, they don't get a
fair shake, You know, OK, if you're a criminal, you know, you
should get punished. If you do bad things, you,
you're going to get punished. I mean, somebody's going to
catch up with you at some point.But, you know, we got to get
(48:35):
back to, to, to love some effectand empathy, man.
When did that become weakness? Yeah, I know, I know.
Yeah, it did. It's so strange to me.
I, I guess people call me a strange thinker, but I think
vulnerability, empathy, I think that those make some of the best
(48:55):
leaders and make best leadershipwhen you're actually able to put
yourself in somebody else's shoes and realize before you
make a decision, before you lookat anything that goes for
directors or anything, anybody. In leadership, absolutely
compassion. We don't need more money.
We need more compassion. Compassion, these veterans
(49:20):
cutting veterans. But these dudes went over there,
man. They risked their life and limb,
you know, in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I had a cousin that did three tours in in Afghanistan and you
know, he was dying of COVID. And they're like, well, the
insurance has run out. I'm like, fuck you.
(49:40):
The insurance. Go to the Veterans
Administration. They saved his life.
You know, that's not right that these guys.
OK, you know, I know there are people that take advantage of
programs and that has to be cut back.
But there's a way to do that, you know, properly and with
integrity. Investigate.
But given the all this worship of the rich man, you know, Oh,
(50:05):
well, you made $250 billion because I manipulated the stock
market, and you tell me in what universe that's right or fair.
Yeah, No, it's not. And when there's kids that are
starving that, that don't have the money to get into Community
College, that. Or much less, have a have a
(50:28):
decent elementary school or middle school high school to go
to. That's teachers I had.
I did an autograph signing in Chicago, and the gal that was,
you know, helping me, you know, collect the money, whatever.
I found out she's a teacher in Indiana, and she has to buy her
own school supplies. You know, I'm, like, here.
(50:50):
Way to fuck him. You're not supposed to.
What is it called? I'll pay for it.
Yeah. That's a big.
Problem. Yeah, come on, we gotta wake up.
You know what the original meaning of the word woke is?
The when it was originally started, its people to say that
(51:10):
word. Isn't it injustice toward?
I mean, it's been kind of turnedinto something that it wasn't
originally supposed to be. I'll tell you where it came
from. You know, the great
singer-songwriter Leadbelly. Heard the name.
Good night Irene, good night, right?
(51:31):
Heard that famous song Leadbelly.
He was a prisoner that sung his way to freedom.
Midnight, midnight, express. Midnight, anyway.
He wrote it. Yeah.
Express. Wasn't that it in midnight?
I think that's right. Yeah, I think it's.
(51:52):
But anyway, he was a prisoner. He was in prison for murdering
somebody and he was so great on the guitar that the warden let
him out and gave him his freedom.
And it was Leadbelly at a gig and he said y'all got to stay
woke to prejudice because it ain't going to sleep.
(52:14):
You got to stay woke to it. OK.
You got to stay woke to the factthat there's people that are,
you know, still filled with hatred toward the black man.
So don't take your freedom for granted.
You got to stay woke to it, OK? That was who coined that phrase.
(52:35):
And now it's been twisted into this, you know, nonsense, man.
It's not Where is the love, man?Where is the you know.
Love and connection and I think,you know, the government wants
us divided because then Yep, it's it.
If we were all connected, it would there they can control us.
You know it would be. We would be a united front.
(52:57):
It's right out of Hitler's playbook.
Divide and cut. First he blamed the Communists,
then he blamed the Jews, then the artists, then the
homosexual. Come on.
Everybody. It's always somebody else you
point the finger at. And then start a war because of
patriotism in the state and readGeorge Orwell.
(53:20):
You know 1984. The last thing they will take is
the orgasm. Once they have that, the state
will know that you are completely dedicated to the
nationalistic cause. And what's that?
What is a nationalistic what? What?
That's a bunch of people that have no courage and want you to
(53:43):
fight their battles for that's was that and the poor end up
doing it. Yeah, the poor that that that
class always suffers because of everything else that.
Goes Dad fought in the Second World War, man, he fought for
you and me to be able to sit here and say what we feel and.
God bless you. Yeah, man, that those people
(54:04):
deserve to call them suckers andlosers.
How this guy got elected. I don't mean to go off on a
political ramp, but it's really hard for me to keep it down.
I mean, the point is, you know, you've been kind enough to
invite me onto your show to promote my play Lucky Man, A
(54:25):
Warrior's Journey, which opens June 5th and plays to June 22nd.
Wednesday through Saturday at 8:00, Sunday at 3 the Gene
Frankel Theatre in New York City, 24 Bond St.
And if any folks come, I'll bring Warriors and Thing photos.
(54:46):
And if they come to the show, I'll give them a free
autographed photo, photo from either one of those movies as a,
you know, just to say thank you for coming.
That's awesome. I I wanted to talk about about
that you, I know you're going totalk about some really dark
themes that have happened in your life and touch on some
(55:08):
things did. How important do you think, do
you think this is Also, like we spoke about earlier, it's going
to be a cautionary tale to maybesome people who are either
suffering with addiction or who may be actors who could be going
through some of the things that you went through in life.
Is is that your hope that you will touch someone out there and
and stop some maybe a a mistake that they may try to go down the
(55:31):
wrong Rd. Oh, I hope I can save somebody
from making the mistakes I've made, man, because you know, you
can save yourself so much pain by just not believing that lie.
You know, it's a lie and we fallinto it because it's easy.
(55:53):
And my play is a morality tale about love, loss and redemption.
That's that you know, things maynot work out exactly the way you
want, but if you learn to love life and have faith in life,
(56:13):
then things tend to work out foryou.
But if you go and get yourself addicted to a substance,
alcohol, drugs, you know, you'regoing to make your life a lot
more difficult than it needs to be.
And you're going to harm the people around you and damage
your children and your friendships and your future,
(56:38):
your, your professional future. And there's not enough attention
paid to it. You know, we just put everybody
in prison. I mean, what I said to a cop
once, what would prisons be likeif there was no such thing as
alcohol and drugs? He said empty 99.99% of the
(56:59):
people in prison. Oh, do they deserve it?
Do they deserve? Should we punish them?
You know, they need help men that they they go out and rob
and steal because they don't think there's anything other
choice for them but to sell drugs.
And what would you do? Work at Starbucks or make 100
grand selling drugs? Yeah.
(57:20):
Especially if you have kids or you have a family and then
you're desperate to feed those. I mean, I'm not saying at all
that it's that it's that it's right.
It's not the right thing to do, but you know you got to survive.
Yeah, that's. You got to take care of your
own. Where again, is the empathy?
Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Is this play very therapeutic
(57:41):
for you when you to get out? Is it kind of what kind of
feelings come over you when you?Oh, man, it's, first of all,
there's a lot of humor in it too, OK.
I mean, I am, you know, I'm a good actor, man, and I bring a
lot of color and life to it. And I hopefully am able to get
(58:05):
the audience to laugh with me and to enjoy my foibles.
And at the same time, yes, it's emotionally draining.
And I, I sacrificed myself on the altar of truth, you know, in
(58:26):
service of mankind because I gota purpose here, and that's to
help people, you know, And I gota little bit of talent.
And I want to, you know, propagate that talent as much as
I, I can and see if I can, you know, make something to myself
(58:50):
with this story. It's a beautiful story.
And it's a true story. Yeah.
That's why it's so amazing, yeah.
There's not a word in this storythat's untrue.
Every single word is absolutely factual.
I just with a great director, Joe Denisi from the Actors
Studio, which is where I startedthe project as a experiment.
(59:15):
I'm a member of the Actors Studio since 1985, both as an
actor and a playwright and director.
And fortunately, Estelle Parsonsallowed me to put up the first
rendition of it and gave me, I got such great encouragement
from actresses like a Catherine Norducci, famous actors from
(59:36):
Sopranos now doing all kinds of things.
Estelle Parsons giving me so much encouragement to go back
in, get under the hood, rebuild the engine, and then to have
this, this brilliant director, Joe Denisi, guide me.
I mean, he's a real actor's director and a real storyteller.
(59:59):
So it's shaped and refined and streamlined.
So 85 minutes of just story, lovely music, story build,
lovely music, you know, crescendo, catharsis, de numa
and hopefully message. That's incredible.
(01:00:20):
I think we, we need that messagetoday because we're all going
through it in one way or the other.
We've got things that we're going through and dealing with.
And like any great story, this play, it's the, the story arc
you end up in redemption and it's a good ending.
So I think anybody please check it out, especially if you're in
New York, It's it's a great, a great story.
(01:00:41):
You have an amazing story, my friend.
I have loved talking to you. It's an honor and learn a lot
from you. It's just.
Incredible. If I can never do anything to
help you out, you let me know. Hey, vice versa my friend.
And please come back anytime youwant to, there's much more to
talk about. All right, Jason, thank you for
having me, mate. Happiness Sold Separately is
(01:01:03):
created and hosted by Jason Hensley and is produced by
Makash Films. Narration by Lauren Gobis If you
or someone you know is in crisisand needs immediate help, call
the National Mental Health Hotline at 866-903-3787.
(01:01:24):
We would be honored if you wouldrate, share and subscribe.
Bye. That's a good one.
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.