FrightFest, London Special Release | The Craft | with guests Jenn Wexler & Heather Buckley - Happy Hour Flix | HHF

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, today we have a very exciting episode of HHF In
honor of in case you didn't know, this week is Fright Fest
London, which is any big horrorfestival right in the heart of
Leicester Square in London, andwe happen to have a film
premiering there.
It's called Herd.
You can check out more about itat herdfilm.
So we figured, in honor of thisbig festival and this awesome

(00:22):
event, why not bring alongsidesome other filmmakers, in this
case Jen Wexler and HeatherBuckley, who made the film
Sacrifice Game, also doing thefestival run at Fright Fest in
London?
So today we're talking about amuch older horror film, one we
definitely all love.
So light a candle, kick back.
We hope you enjoy the Craft asmuch as we do.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's a movie that begs the question would Nancy be
in Slytherin or Hufflepuff?
It's the Craft.
It's 1996, you've got somepopular movies out there Mission

(01:17):
Impossible, twister, scream,fargo, from Dust Till Dawn,
matilda, Independence Day, aTime to Kill Trainspotting,
happy Gilmore, jerry Maguirethat thing you do, I mean, come
on, the cable guy and swingers.
But today we're herespecifically to talk about the
Craft.
I am here, as always, with myco-host, mr Stephen Pierce.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
Holy shit.
Okay, so I tasted the cocktailfrom today.
Oh, so we're just skippingahead.
I'm derailing this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
You are the earth, to my wind and always on fire, sir
.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Yeah, so let's jump ahead.
Yeah, I think I mean, well,let's get, we get to it in a
second.
I just I couldn't even.
I couldn't even like I tastedit while the music was playing
and I was trying to not talkover it, because then we have to
redo shit.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
No, but you did do a very kind thing, which I
appreciate.
So since we're audio, onlypeople don't know that you took
care of me and adjusted my micmid-intro.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
I like to you know support you in every way I can.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
I feel very supportive.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Until we get to the content, and then I say fuck
that guy.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'm gonna skip straight to the cocktail.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
I'm jumping ahead.
No, okay, yeah, no, it washonestly.
I have to thank the gueststoday.
Yes, for bringing this film,because I'd seen this film
probably the late nineties, butI've not checked it out since.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
Just hadn't really been on the radar.

Speaker 1 (02:33):
But I mentioned it.
Yeah, lori, you just chill out.
Yeah, I know you're exasperated, but yes, I haven't seen it in
a while.
And I mentioned it to my wifewho's like, you know, like corn
feta, corn feta, little annoyinggirl and she was like oh yeah,
we're going to do the movie thecraft.
I haven't seen her.
She's like the craft.
I've never seen it.
But this like formed so many ofmy friends' lives.
So this is the first moviewe've done where she was like I

(02:56):
want to watch it with you.

Speaker 3 (02:57):
Oh, nice, usually you know, whenever we're doing
other stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:01):
She's like no, you just go ahead and watch that one
.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'll watch Angels in the Outfield, this one she
specifically asked to do.
So I have to thank our guests.
Yes, today we are joined by JenWexler, director extraordinaire
and producer extraordinaireHeather.

Speaker 2 (03:12):
Buckley, that's right , we're going to be doing.

Speaker 1 (03:15):
Punk Darkness today, exactly so.
Thank you guys very much forjoining us.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
Thanks for having us.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
I'm very excited to talk about the most important
movie of the 90s.
There it is.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
So I think we figured out who picked this movie, like
just by conviction.
Is it your movie, Heather?

Speaker 3 (03:27):
No, it is our movie.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's ours, it is our movie.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
But I'll tell you why I suggested it was only a few
days before Heather and I werein a conversation with some of
our producers on our movie, theSacrifice Game, about what is
the most iconic movie of the 90s, and we all had different
answers.
But in that conversation,heather brought up the craft and
I was like, oh man, yes, thecraft, I agree with that.

(03:52):
And then, coincidentally, youwere like what movie do you want
to do that you're nostalgic for?
And that was on my mind.
So I said, oh, I know Heatherwill be excited for this and I
am too.
Let's do the craft.

Speaker 3 (04:03):
Oh yeah, they brought up nonsense answers like Pulp
Fiction and things like that andit's like now it's the craft I
love it.
Because you have to talk aboutthe quintessential quality of
like.
Is this the 90s?
And sure Pulp Fiction is likethe independent spirit of the
90s, but the craft is the 90s.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
The first thing watching I was like this is the
most 90s intro of any intro toany film I've ever seen and
everything just the font alonethe clothes they wear, like you
can.
This is back in the day whereyou can not only like you know,
it doesn't you can smell theclothes through the camera.

Speaker 3 (04:37):
You know what.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
I mean it's like a pack of showering that's
happening in the 90s.

Speaker 3 (04:40):
And how does Nancy look so perfect?
Nancy looks perfect and it'salso well, we'll get into it.
Authentic gear Authentic gear.

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Well, I also get into it when she was wearing a wig
the whole time.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
What?

Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yes, I didn't know that she did yeah, so she just
come off of.

Speaker 2 (04:53):
Oh, robin did right.

Speaker 1 (04:56):
Yes, yeah, oh, robin, empire Records.
Yeah, sorry, not Nancy, notNancy, yeah, okay, so Robin had
just done Empire Records and herhair wasn't grown in yet, and
so she was wearing a wig.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
I did not know that, but it makes me feel funny.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
She wanted to do a bald, but the studio wouldn't
let her.
No, and then Andy said we'lljust glamour.
So let's get into the cocktailMatt All right.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
So we do have a phenomenal drink today, that's
brought.

Speaker 1 (05:18):
It is mad.
Good, you guys want to makethis one?

Speaker 2 (05:20):
Yeah, we're already in, and this is brought as
always by our friends atMisguided Spirits, and today was
mixed down at Malaides, whichis in Soho.

Speaker 1 (05:29):
It's in Soho, right.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's 160, so Prince Street.
And then it was voted in thetop 50 bars in North America
this year, which is 2023, andrecently nominated for best new
US cocktail bar at Tales of theCocktail and this is famous
Tales of the Cocktail.
Yes, famous and this wasspecifically made by their head

(05:52):
bartender, Izzy, who is justawesome and she's from Jersey
but is got away from the familyand is now in Red Hook so far
away with her dog and cat, Konaand Big Wave, which I just
absolutely love, and I guess heprobably has a parakeet 4.4 ABV.
But you can find her onInstagram at Izzy, underscore

(06:17):
C's.
That's Izz y underscore S E E Sand of course, that'll be in
the show notes.
But the drink itself.

Speaker 1 (06:24):
All right, so this one is good, guys.
It looks like a tropical fruit,you said that like she doesn't
make good.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
These are amazing.
This one is just exponentiallyOK, got it.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
I don't do this every time.

Speaker 2 (06:34):
No, this is true.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
This is just a once in a while Once in a while Good
time.
Ok, ok, ok.
So this has a slice of likemelon on it and it's looked like
a sunset, and she called itrelax.
It's only magic Dackery.
So, jen Heather, what exactlyis in this if people were going
to make this at home?

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yeah, you guys want to tell us if you want to make
it a home, all you need is 1.5ounces of Red Sky rum.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
That's our misguided spirits.
Red Sky yeah.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Quarter ounce of Smith and Cross.
Three fourths ounce ofwatermelon bear bear syrup.
What the hell is that?

Speaker 2 (07:12):
bear based syrup.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah, it's good it is good, I just where do you even
buy that?

Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well, I mean you have to go to your local.
I guess we'll have to ask.
I'm going to.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
I'm searching on a DM Izzy and make her put in like
where do we get well with thiswatermelon juice?

Speaker 2 (07:28):
You know she's going to crush it and be like.
You didn't see that in the shopwhen the girls went in.
It was in the corner.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
I think she's going to be like I made it and I'm
like well, okay.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, and what else we got?

Speaker 4 (07:37):
And three fourth ounce of fresh lime juice, shake
double, strain into cup of intoa glass cup and garnish with a
little watermelon wedge.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
That'd be a lot.
And so, heather, how is it?

Speaker 3 (07:49):
I like that.
It is citrusy sweet, but alsospicy, which is appropriate for
this movie.
Yeah, fabulous, all right,bringing it home, my God.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well, speaking of, let's just I want to jump with
like one of the best drinkswe've had and also, as we're
saying, one of the mostinfluential movies of the 90s,
if not the like.
Quite essential.
I kind of want to jump backinto that.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
But not even of the 90s, but of like girls lives,
okay, and I would even say likeguys lives too.
Yeah, everybody loves the craft.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
It feels like definitely like a paramount of
the counterculture, if you knowwhat I mean, of the 90s at least
, because you know it feels likethe 90s, but I remember maybe
it's a little more late 90s, butlike Abercrombie and Fitch and
sort of that beach vibe tryingto take over everywhere.
This is like the and this isthe other side of the table.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
It's true.
I mean you can say that it'smaybe a spiritual grandchild of
what John Hughes was doing.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
I wrote down that this is like what happened.
This is like the real theexpansion of the breakfast club,
Like if you see what happens tothe characters when they walk
out of the building.
This is what they're doing.

Speaker 2 (08:56):
This is what happens next.
This is what happens.

Speaker 1 (08:58):
This shit is intense yo.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
But no upsetting makeovers.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
No, yes, you have glamours instead of a.

Speaker 1 (09:04):
We are getting into the breakfast club and we're
going.
When I watched the movie forthe first time, this last year
at breakfast club.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
I've switched movies.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Wow, alright, they got to the makeover and they're
like she looks worse.
She was way.

Speaker 3 (09:18):
Her dead pink has the same problem.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, john Hughes has .
I mean, I don't know, I don'tlove all John Hughes movies.
I think I'm an outlier on this.
Hot take.
Yeah, hot take.
I think that a lot of I'm notthe biggest John Hughes fan.

Speaker 2 (09:29):
Well, that's why Andy came along and said I'm going
to do something else with thecrap.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
Yeah, good job.
So you're moving us back to thething.
Welcome.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
I don't know, I just, but I do.
I think it is something youwere saying.
It resonates and there's anhonesty to it that, within the
specificity of the story thatthey're telling that just you
can't get away from, it is sointegrous to the story itself
that really all therelationships are real, the

(09:55):
things that they're dealing withare honest, and then it's just
told so specifically that yourealize that you just can't get
away from how Well, like, howreal it is.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
They're allowed to be bad girls.
They're allowed to be cool.
They smoke cigarettes, they hadthe best outfits on, they were
true friends and also the mostimportant thing is that they're
outsiders.

Speaker 2 (10:15):
Right.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
And the focus of the film is on the characters who
are outsiders, and not on theAmicronian Finch folks.

Speaker 4 (10:21):
For me it was like one of maybe five movies or TV
shows that were gateway drugs ofthis time and it was 1996 and
maybe it was the first one.
I think I saw this before I sawScream, which also came out in
1996, also with Skeet.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
With Skeet Ulrich and Neve Campbell and Neve yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:43):
And it was like this Scream I know we did last summer
, and like Buffy, which I thinkwas a year later.
And then another personalgateway drug was Are you Afraid
of the Dark?
That was from when I was likefive, that was from early 90s.

Speaker 2 (10:59):
It was just a long tunnel after that gateway
Exactly.

Speaker 4 (11:03):
But seeing the craft when I was like 10 years old, I
really I feel like it was anexample of female friendship I
hadn't seen before.
And then, as every other girlmy age was doing, I felt now
like this movie was part of myidentity and truly, my friends
and I would try to call the FourCorners during recess.

(11:24):
We would sit there in fifthgrade and save the things and
try to have seances and hang outin the graveyard, and it was
all inspired by seeing thismovie.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
That's amazing.
I was going to ask is thissomething that you guys had,
like, the experience of, likeyou know what?
Is it?
Light as a Feather Stiff as aBoard?

Speaker 4 (11:43):
Yes, I would play.
My friends and I would, afterseeing this movie, would play
Light as a Feather Stiff, as aBoard at sleepover parties.
And there was one time Iremember specifically where
there were probably like eightof us and there was a girl who
was you know the person layingthere and we all picked her up
and we were like, oh my God,it's working guys.
But there were eight of us andshe was probably like 85 pounds

(12:05):
or whatever.
It's not that hard to lift.
But we convinced ourselves thatshe was like really light
because we were playing this.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
I do love the practicality of that magic, if
you will.
Because, yeah, because youcould just go do it at a party
and you're like, oh my.

Speaker 1 (12:20):
God, we're doing it.
It's working.
Yeah, I'm not going to do itwith you, matt, here in a few
minutes, just all the way downon the floor.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
This is just a little prelude to Also, jen, was it
the first coming of age storythat involved the occult and
witchcraft which is, of course,a part of any horror girl's life
?

Speaker 4 (12:39):
In existence?
I would have to think aboutthat, but certainly, for my
viewing at the time was probablyone of the first that I saw.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
Exactly and I think that's critical as well is that
part of sort of coming into yourown power and crystals, magic
candles, and that's a part ofwho you are.
I think there's not a lot ofstories about young girl
friendship that involved thedevil, as they should.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
No, not at all.
I mean it's central to this one.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
They had a consultant who was Wiccan on the set,
which I didn't know when I firstsaw it, but I was like, well to
your point, I think there wasan approach to it that's like
we're not going to just kind ofput something on it and call it
witchcraft.

Speaker 1 (13:20):
The witchcraft is authentic.
It feels real.
That's what makes it sort ofscary, at least initially.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, and as I was going to say, is that kind of
where you're going with that, ordo you agree with that?

Speaker 3 (13:32):
I was just thinking as Jen and I are genre
filmmakers and just sort of likeall the horror filmmakers of
the world, the idea that thiswould be more aligned with our
experience of being into thatstuff.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, feeling like you don't belong, feeling like
an outsider, feeling like amisfit for sure, especially as a
young teen, you know,pre-adolescent girl.
I think it really speaks tothat kind of person.

Speaker 1 (13:58):
In terms of the Wiccan stuff, I actually don't
know how true to it, how true toWiccan it is my point is, I
mean, it feels real and I thinkthat they did bring a consultant
on and I saw some blogs andstuff.
There were like 25 weird factsabout the craft.
I was kind of reading throughthem and all of them were

(14:18):
hilarious.
Some of them were like you'dnever know, but the actors
weren't really teens.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
And I was like oh my God, you're blowing my mind.

Speaker 1 (14:28):
And then they're like they hired a witchcraft expert
to be a consultant.

Speaker 3 (14:32):
I was like well, no shit.

Speaker 1 (14:33):
You're going to make a movie that involves witchcraft
and you're going to ask UncleDave to come oversee it.
I mean, it's going to be soshitty.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
That's why John Hughes was not involved.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
That's why John Hughes was not involved.
My point is it feels veryauthentic.
There's just too many littledetails and the symbols and the
elemental aspects and the waythey stand.
It rings true in a way that Idon't think I can't really name
another film in a teen genrethat does anything like that.

(15:02):
No, because there's usually asend up in the middle of it, or
it's like one character.
It's like here's the story andthe B plot and then here's the C
plot character, but you see,once in a while they're doing
something fucking weird with aknife and a candle.
This one puts them in front andcenter, and it's because I
think it's also very smart,because the way they start
everything out is based in theirbeing outside the main circle,

(15:26):
not having shitty lives, thingsthat they can't, that are beyond
their control they're trying tofight through and it makes
total sense.
It's a great set up.

Speaker 3 (15:34):
Well, to me it's not even that like the authenticity
of the occult in it.
It's the idea is like you'vedecided to make a story and
focus on outsider girls that arewitches and how fucking cool
that is.
You've created all these likeat a very, like, very surface,
but there's also a depth to that.
It's like you've created verycool characters.
The cast is amazing.
Who doesn't want to be likeNancy?

(15:55):
She has a cool outfit, she getsto kill boys, it's like all
these great stuff.
So to me it's like more aboutlike the identity and sort of
seeing a reflection of yourselfor an inspirational party of
yourself on screen.
Sure.

Speaker 4 (16:07):
And they all have like yeah, they have real things
that they're working through,struggling with working through
one of them.
It's class with Nancy.
I think it's so funny.
Everybody in this movie livesin a Hollywood mansion, except
Nancy, who lives in a trailerpark.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah, they doubled down.
They didn't just be like, butnot for long.

Speaker 1 (16:27):
Not for long, not for long.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
She eventually moves to a penthouse.
Penthouse apartment or whateverit is, but yeah, like the fact
that everyone who goes to thisschool lives in a Hollywood
mansion, I love it.
I mean, I love the atmosphere,this like LA gothic atmosphere
that the movie captures.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
And it does very well and it reminds, made me think
of Sarah as she's coming in.
She's the outsider of theoutsiders, you know, and then
she comes in and her one momentthat sticks out.
I was going to just say it'sthe moment where she's in the
back of French class and thenthe pencil starts turning Right
and you're like, immediately, nomatter what, I'm like, oh shit.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
So that was my real question.
So they say the four centralcharacters they're like the four
points of the compass or thefour elements or something you
know.
The is in Nancy sort ofcompletes them.
But that happens before we seethat really get together Right
Like they're with the pencil.

Speaker 4 (17:25):
Sarah completes them.
Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Speaker 1 (17:27):
Sorry, god, I'm terrible with character names.
Sarah completes them, but likewe see her with the pencil
before, they kind of completethe coven or whatever Right?
So is she like?

Speaker 2 (17:36):
well, she says she's like at the shop, it's like
you're a natural witch.

Speaker 1 (17:40):
Right, so, but that's , is that what?
Is she the one that empowersthem, or she just complete this
circle of power?
For the rest of that's a goodquestion.

Speaker 4 (17:48):
I think, the movie leaves it open ended.
I mean, definitely the movie islike she is a natural, which
her mom was a witch as well,right, but in terms of like, did
they?
Were they able to do anythingbefore?

Speaker 1 (18:01):
she arrived.

Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, I think it's a little open ended.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yeah, because even in the moment where the they're
celebrating the guy getting hit,you're like what was
circumstantial, what was not,what was, and so like had that
been happening?
All the circumstances, becausewe know to like, we interpret
things the way we want to seethem.
So, up until that moment, until, like, real shit early on in
the movie.

Speaker 3 (18:24):
Everyone in the school knows that there's their
witches Right.
That's what they call them, soI believe that they're doing
some sort of magical shit orthey're trying to they're like
branding themselves as it's,just it's just that's sort of my
question is like I feel like asand she completes and maybe
they could have never doneanything, or maybe she's the.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
I think it sort of posits also that because Nancy I
think I got it right this timebecomes the sort of powerful
breakout one that sort of turnseverything over and ultimately
sort of becomes the villain,because she does get powers.
I think they're saying that she, that Sarah completed the
circle right and that's whatthey were missing was just an
actual natural element that theywere missing.

Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah that's what I was wondering and, to your point
, it made me think of the novelJonathan Strange and Mr Norell,
because it's like a study oflike.
Are we studying the arts andthat makes us that you know the
magicians, or is it the art thatI'm able to complete that makes
me the magician?
And then so, yeah, then it doesthen beg the question of Sarah
coming in.
Is she actually creating orshortening the, the length

(19:25):
between the energy that'shappening between these girls to
actually jump, if you will, oris it already happening and
she's just completing what thenext level would?
next level would be Right,because then we see, I mean that
beautiful moment with thebutterflies, like when they all
take the day trip, and then they, you know, hold the knife and
they come in, and and then atthe end, just when the

(19:46):
butterflies come down on Nev'scharacter, and it's just like
gorgeous.

Speaker 3 (19:51):
I was wondering how they even did that effect in the
90s.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, there's some I mean very cool effects in here.
I mean even I even dated, likethe snakes and the fingers, and
some of the things at the endcouldn't look a little dated,
but they're still cool, it'sstill very cool yeah that's very
cool, like I mean that you knowthat that wasn't it's all my in
it because it's easy, it's so,it's so.

Speaker 2 (20:11):
The effects themselves are so of the time
right that it ages with thestory.
I don't know if that's I don'tknow how else to say that by the
way, can we talk about the bugsfor a second?
Yes.

Speaker 4 (20:23):
So the bugs.
So, seeing this when I was 10years old, I now, as an adult,
hate bugs.
I'm so afraid of bugs andsnakes and everything.
And I realized at some point inthe last 10 years that I was
like, oh, this is because of thecrafts, like that's what.
That's what planted that seedof fear in me initially.
And then I carried that with methrough teenhood and into

(20:46):
adulthood and a couple of yearsago I put together that that's
where that fear that's where itbegan.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
I mean with the, the cockroaches and things crawling
over her feet and the maggotscoming out of the greats.
Yeah, they're there.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
That's some really good ones.
It's real to like very, veryfulgy.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Yes, and they.
They sealed off the house.
They bred these things so thatthey couldn't reproduce.
So if they escaped to like, Imean, it's kind of insane.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
I read that they had like like Andrew Fleming or one
of the director and co-writersaid they had 10,000 snakes.
Yes, god, I know which.
I was like what on this movie,like that's like a half of your
budget.

Speaker 3 (21:24):
You know, you say why did it have to be?

Speaker 2 (21:26):
just six.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Um, I mean yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Mr Bailey was supposed to be Harrison Ford,
but he was like not going to doit now you know the the high
school section of this when wearrive.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
You know it's a 90s movie because God, I don't know
the guy's name and I should havelooked it up.
But the guy with the big,swooshy like pompadour hair,
he's like the hottest nerdy dudeof all kind all time.
He's in every 90s movie.
You guys know what I'm talkingabout.
He's kind of like the sidekickto the football guy.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
He's like the talk to him later.
You're talking about Mitt orthe other guy?
Breckin Meyer, yeah, breckinMeyer, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
Mitt yeah, this guy, he's like he plays, doesn't he
in this movie?
He's played in one of the coolguys, which totally tripped me
out because I'm used to him like, isn't it like Encino man or
something?
Where?
he's like the nerd, it'sclueless.
He's like the nerdy stoner kindof like guy on the side or
whatever the movie's likepushing away, and I'm like this,
I thought they were going to dothat with this movie at first.
So I'm like this guy makes acareer out of being a nerd and

(22:23):
he is like a straight up, justcool, just a good looking dude.

Speaker 4 (22:28):
Yeah, he's like the sidekick of the cool guy.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:31):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Who is an absolute, some of the dialogue man, when
they drop, like one liners inhere.
They dropped their version ofthe N word, which was whoa
aggressive.
I was like whoa baby.
Like that came out and I waslike, oh my God, like that is.
That is bad, what's happeningnow.
That one stings.
Check she's also from a bunchof other stuff.

(22:55):
What are?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
you talking about Christine Taylor?

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Yeah she's from Dodgeball Zoolander.

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Yeah, the Brady.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Bunch, which was also kind of like.
And then, yeah, to see a part,somebody that has like that
large of a career afterwardsjust dropped some like real.
I literally I was like makingdinner last night and it was on
that happen.
I was like, oh my God, and mywife was like what she was
playing with the baby and I waslike you just didn't hear what
they said, but I'm not going torewind.
It's fine, it's fine.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
She lost her hair.
It's fine yeah.

Speaker 4 (23:25):
I think the movie wields racism a little too
casually, which I think isemblematic of the late nineties
I think a lot of movies did thatwhich you know is not cool.
I mean, the movie knows it'snot cool but it exploits it for
a plot point which is not cool.
Now, especially watching it inyour, it just feels really

(23:48):
really not cool.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
But yeah, that's, and that's the only time that
really happens, like somethinglike that the other.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yeah, because they make it about that for her.
It's not about her as acharacter, rochelle, it's like I
, it's really a racial thingspecifically.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're just honest, it
goes, probably because of pace.
They just wanted to do itquickly, but man it does.
I think you said it perfectly,jen.
They just handle it.
They wield it way too likeflippantly like way too easily
Like that's just and it doesn'treflect.
It might reflect a moment ofreal life, but it doesn't
reflect like that sort ofstructure of it.
It's, it's dastardly, but notlike cartoonish, I don't know.

(24:26):
It's not like quotable in thatdirection?

Speaker 4 (24:28):
Usually, yeah, but let me, let me tell you more
about that.
What happens to ChristineTaylor's character?
I forget the character name.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Laura, yeah, laura.

Speaker 4 (24:37):
Yeah, I mean, that is something that, just an image
that stayed with me since I wasa kid of her.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
Again that shower shower.
Yeah, just killer, because theyalso had just like a little bit
of blood and like scarring hereand there.
It was so affecting.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Like so I was going to say was the response?
Was there just how grotesque itwas, or was there like a
connection with oh, if this wereme or if that you know?

Speaker 4 (25:04):
or it was just like the power of what happened.
Sometimes you just see visualsand they stick with you.
And I think that visual of herin the shower.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
She's pulling her hair and you're yeah, the
scarring gives it a little extradetail that it just and then
it's, and then it's doubled down, like when you pull back to see
Rochelle and she looks one wayand her image looks the same way
.
Oh, yeah, that mirror.
Whoa.
I look just every time.

(25:32):
I know it's coming, but I don'tknow.
I mean, how does that play foryou, heather?

Speaker 3 (25:36):
I mean, I always like when the mean girls get it.

Speaker 4 (25:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:39):
And she's a scumbag, so good.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
That's just.
I think we might put that asthe subtitle of the film or
subtitle of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
It's true.
Well, when I think, when Ithink about it, because I think
about the sort of more of the,the outsider character stuff, is
that, since the craft was sobig, much like John Hughes films
and stuff like that, if you'resort of like an outsider alt
girl you have like your familyand other people in the world
are able to identify you as aNancy, and so like there's a
word and a construct now in popculture of what your daughter or

(26:15):
child or friend or even like Ihave a lot of, a lot of guy
friends that identify with themovie, like they're also like a
Nancy.
And so I remembered in my lifepeople would see the movie and
they're going like there's thischaracter, nancy.
And I would hear the same aboutgirl with the dragon tattoo and
also, of course, my favorite.
It's like have you seen girlinterrupted an Angelina Jolie's

(26:36):
character.
So like that's like the trifectathe trifecta and I would feel
that would be my double feature.
You watch girl interrupted inthe craft.
Interesting yeah For insanegirl friendships, do you?

Speaker 1 (26:50):
guys remember how old you were when you saw this
movie the first time.
Ten, wow, like immediate.

Speaker 4 (26:55):
Yes, because this I already talked about.
But this and scream I know wedid last time where.
I saw them all when I was 10.
And that it really changed mylife, because that like taught
me that the world of horrorexisted and it made me obsessed
with horror movies and itushered me.
It was like letting me knowthere was like another world out

(27:17):
there and it ushered me intoadolescence, essentially.
And then my adolescence werejust defined by like wanting to
watch lots of horror movies.
And let me add one more thingto this so in this movie Sarah
is the new girl at school andthen she happens upon this group
and then they become witchestogether and then, like in Buffy

(27:39):
the Vampire Slayer, buffy,because that was another, the TV
show was another gateway drugfor me.
As I said, buffy is the newgirl at school.
But, really, she's a vampireslayer.
So when I was 12, my parentsmoved me to another neighborhood
and I had to change schools andI was like, okay, I've been
like trained to think thatsomething supernatural and

(28:02):
magical is going to happen whenI move to this new school and
nothing happened, and it was soI feel like I went into this
well of depression because Ikept waiting for my magical
thing to happen and it justwouldn't happen.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
I just picture you like standing outside in a
graveyard tonight just spinningaround to be like something
essentially that was singingfrom West Side.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Story no, that was me .

Speaker 1 (28:24):
Sorry gotcha.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
I was still in the graveyard, but I was like well,
when we talk about Jen's uvaraas a director and when I like
read her scripts we work onstuff together like these are so
, so critical touch points to alot of the things that I think
that Jen works on, likeeverything she mentioned, like
those core films and are youafraid of the dark and that tone
.
And also, like when we talkabout the craft, when we talk

(28:46):
about the stuff that Jen lovesbecause we love very similar
things it's like you almost havelike a crush on those movies,
like I have a crush on the movie, the craft I have a crush on.
Are you afraid of the dark?

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Right.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
And it's something so special and so wonderful.
And I also see that, and youjust see it in Jen's work, that
kind of tone and that kind ofwork.

Speaker 4 (29:06):
It is funny not to get too into specifics of our
movie that we made the sacrificegame, which is coming to
shutter soon, but Heather and Iwere talking about like there
are things I didn't even realizeconsciously that are in
sacrifice game and afterrewatching the crafts I was like
, oh, that's interesting, likethat's also in sacrifice game,

(29:29):
like I did not realize that Idid that, but now that I see it,
it's there.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
So yeah, and being open to those, the experience
that you had, like what we weretalking about earlier with the
bugs, and then realizing wheredid that come from and how does
that influence those otherthings that I'm doing.
And, like you were saying,that's central to the stories I
want to tell and the aestheticsthat I enjoy and also the, the
voices that I want to hear.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
You know the voices that 100%, which is why you know
, I love, you know and Jen'svoice is platform, because I
think these are very criticalthings and girls, critical
stories about, critical storiesabout, you know, friendship,
outsiders, posers.
Yeah, the craft is also aboutposers a little bit.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
It is about yeah sure we can go there.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Go ahead, come on.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
Well the well.
The idea is that they're allposing that their witches, right
, if we go back to what wetalked about before.
But the new girl's the actualshe's a real deal.
She's also unassuming as welland I think like when I think
about about Jen's work, it'slike we're also talking about
the person that's unassuming.
That's sort of the real deal.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
Yeah, as well, that's true.

Speaker 3 (30:37):
Right, the outsider's outsider, in a sense.

Speaker 2 (30:40):
The one that's going to go for the five finger
discount but says, fine, I canpay for it.

Speaker 1 (30:46):
You know one of the things this film does that, I
think, is sort out of the normto, because whenever you watch
the first couple acts, it turnswhen you see the get his name,
skeet or whatever now is in.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
Chris.

Speaker 1 (30:59):
Chris is now in love with Sarah and he's like, and I
was like, oh no, this is goingto be a problem.
So immediately, like, my brain,just analytically, is like okay
, great.
So now the rest of the movie isgoing to be about how all of
these made their choices.
All the all the four charactersgot something they wanted.
You know, bite him in the assand we have to figure out how to
walk the magic back.
That is not the way it goes.
It does not take the typicallike format of like put the

(31:21):
genie back in the bottle.
Learn for what you know.
Be careful what you wish for.
This movie is much more aboutlike, I don't know, like that's
actually.
That's sort of a good question.
What is the meta for this movie?
Like, what is it?
What are they saying at the endof the day?

Speaker 4 (31:34):
For me it's like female friendship and real
female friendship versus I don'tknow.
I think it's all about femalefriendship.
I think it's really interesting.
I noticed on this last watch Idid there's so much slut shaming
and then there's so muchacknowledgement that everyone's
slut shaming.
So within the group they'relike can you believe that people

(31:56):
are slut shaming you?
Like I know that this didn'thappen.
And outside of the group, thegirls at the school are also
slut shaming each other.
And then you know it exploresfriendship and you have in your
early second acts like themdoing magic together and having

(32:19):
sleepover parties together andwhat their friendship is looking
like.
And then it looks at thedissolution of that friendship
in the second half of the movieand them turning against each
other.
And at the end of the day, Idon't know she, she doesn't, she

(32:40):
just I mean at the end of theday she goes back to San
Francisco.
She doesn't have friends, butshe's found her own power.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
And now Nancy's like put away into something else and
it's sort of like containedlike her, because she kind of
exploded beyond what theexpectation was for her Right
Like where she kind of became inpower for a while.

Speaker 4 (32:58):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (32:59):
Also.
I think this is somethinginteresting that Jenna and I
talk about as well.
I think one reason the way thecraft resonates is because
teenage friendships and girlfriendships are messy, they're
not this perfect idealizingthings.
Because it's like thinking theway that Jen's talking about it,
it's like we're talking aboutfriendships and friendships.
Not about frenemies, not aboutenemies, not about like we're
going to all do it together, butjust sort of like this time,

(33:21):
you know, when girls becomewitches and sometimes they turn
off they, they, they, they goafter each other.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
The time when girls become witches?
Yeah Well and maybe it's aspecial moment of adolescence.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Well, and I just wonder too, then, does it take,
or did it take, and does itstill take to say, okay, they
have to be witches in order totell an honest story about
adolescence.

Speaker 3 (33:46):
I just think it's awesome.
I think it's awesome to givegirls the power of of witches
these characters, yeah, and youand you say yeah, they're cool.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
And then you see how powerful they get and, like you
were saying earlier, when Nancygets to kill Chris and just like
, just just floats right at himand just and he's.
You know what were you going tosay?
It's shocking.

Speaker 1 (34:08):
It's like a shocking Relevation, because you expect,
because that guy's a total dick,like, I mean like, and it's
very clear.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, they do a great job of flesh on that, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
They flip him on his head, but then you don't expect
him to kill him, right, you sortof don't expect that.

Speaker 4 (34:23):
But let's talk about his character, because I think
ski Ulrich is such a good joband it's such a different
character from his role inScream and he's he has like
range, like he has to do a lotof things in this movie, from
like be charming to being atotal dick, to being in love
with her and desperate desperate, like getting more and more

(34:44):
desperate to the, his finalscene with Nancy, where he's
glamored to think that it'sSarah and and yeah, that's
iconic, that scene where youknow she storms in and she sees
Nancy's in the bed with him.
It's shot so awesomely you havea trombone shot in there and

(35:05):
she's like moving towards him,like floating towards him.
It's a great fucking scene.

Speaker 1 (35:10):
That scene again.
Like what was Nancy'smotivation going into that scene
?
Like right, because she's likeit starts off with like hey, she
just like she's off to theparty.
I'm just going Well, I assumedit was like it felt like I'm
going to go punish him or takecontrol of this or exhibit my
power in some sort of way.

Speaker 2 (35:27):
And I think that's the thing and this may be kind
of Heather, if this is whatyou're talking about like them
being witches, which is soawesome.
It's like she can go huntingLike she's got power now that,
being an outsider, we're nothaving Right.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
But what's surprising about it is that she does go
there, but then she uses Sarah'sbody to do it, but it doesn't
seem like she or her ultimatemission in that point was to
destroy him.
It seems like it's more to takesomething Sarah had.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, well, I guess, and I also think it's a sense of
validation, because first she'strying to use her.
She's trying to use just sexualpower herself to hook up with
him and and get him to want her,and then when he doesn't want
her, that's when he, she, turnsinto Sarah, kind of as to me

(36:14):
revenge, and to get some sort ofpayback on him and fuck with
him because he doesn't want her.
Well, she's going to force,she's going to make him think
that he wants her.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Right.
Anyway, the only challengingthing to that, and again, like
I'm just, I think it works, butI'm like what would have
happened if Sarah and the othershadn't interrupted that scene?
Because they come andultimately break up the
interaction on the pathway she'sgoing down.

Speaker 4 (36:41):
I think ultimately it would have ended the way it
ended.
Yeah, even if they could walkin, I think they would have
maybe actually had sex and thenmaybe while he was orgasming,
she would have changed back toherself.

Speaker 1 (36:52):
Yeah, so it becomes about like her control of him.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
And then letting him know you're also talking about
this type of bully.
So when I watched it I thoughtabout how many women this
character has hurt, Sure.
Yeah, Of course the wholeschool statutory rape, date rape
, all that stuff like that,absolutely, he's a fucking
scumbag and just like the dreamof the outsider is like well,
now you're dealt with.

Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, no and like so, my, my mission is not here to
justify him, it's just to belike to clarify what she's after
.
But I think that's what that is.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
But I think that's her mindset of like you're a
bully, you've hurt me, you'vehurt so many other people, I'm
taking, I'm taking you out andnot even for herself, and not
even for herself.

Speaker 4 (37:33):
But like I felt it was for all of us, but also like
let me use you sexually.

Speaker 1 (37:38):
Sure, the thing, the power you you wield on somebody
else, let me take from you.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Yeah, and let me, exactly, let me use you sexually
the way you use all these othergirls, right, and it's one of
the first things, that's set upright, like when Nancy's it
confides into Sarah's like Ishould know you know it's like,
and then we kind of tailor awayfrom that.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
But it's established, nancy's like this guy fucks
with everybody.

Speaker 3 (38:05):
So it's pretty much like good for her moment, yeah.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
I don't think anybody's watching that scene
being like oh poor Chris, youknow what I mean.
I think Gary recognized thatthere's something.
I think also that scene isstructurally supposed to tell
you that Nancy's sort of comeoff of the book, so to speak, of
control Right, like you knowwhat I mean, like where her
desire for power or thirst ofyou know, because she is sort of
like it's like when all thethings show up on the beach and

(38:31):
she's like this is a gift, thisis a gift for me.
It's like her seeking godlinessor something to get.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
And the spirit of vengeance, yeah, also a spirit
of vengeance that is mostlyallowed for male characters,
yeah, yeah.
And who are?

Speaker 2 (38:44):
normally the predators, the sharks.
Even though it's an interesting, it doesn't really tie well,
because Rochelle was called ashark by Laura.
You know it's like sharks andyou know her outline is water.
But anyway, I say that just topoke a hole.

Speaker 1 (38:58):
But I love that.
Matt's like going on a point,just slowly dripping and
dropping in some of the facts,and she's the water element.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Also, don't bully the goth girls.
You see what happens.
Yes, yeah, don't bully the gothgirls.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
But what a, what an incredible role and I want more
female roles like that for likeNancy out there in movies and
how cool, a Frusible to justfucking go for it and go crazy.
She's awesome, yeah, she's soawesome.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
She should have been in a thousand more things and
the only other thing I can thinkof her in is in Waterboy.
I think the Adam Sandler wasthe only other.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Well, you know, you know her, she her first, she was
11.

Speaker 4 (39:37):
In Return to Oz, so good, really Return to Oz.

Speaker 2 (39:42):
I tried to get us to watch.
It's too scary to watch.

Speaker 4 (39:46):
It's like a nightmare you had when you were a kid,
like my memory of Return to Ozis like a nightmare that I had.
Is this a real movie or is thisa nightmare?

Speaker 2 (39:54):
It's like if I asked you, what did you dream of you
had?
You're like I had a nightmareand I'm like, well, tell me
about it.
And you're trying toreconstruct it.

Speaker 4 (40:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
You know, I saw it in the theater, oh my God.
But also she was in.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
American.

Speaker 2 (40:06):
History X.
Oh right, yes, yes.

Speaker 4 (40:10):
And she should be in many things.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Yeah, like she is incredible and for that, in fact
, her she goes like all the way.
You never for a second doubtthat you know, and all most
actors, at some point you cansee the performance.
It's hers, you just feel likethis is her.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
And who's like that in the contemporary sense, with
Mia goth?

Speaker 1 (40:27):
In a goth sense.
Well, Mia goth, oh sure.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
And the idea of sort of like that sort of performance
where you're embodying thefemale villain character in a
very sort of baroque actingsense and being so free and
unhinged.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
And again, you don't see a lot of that performance
from a lot of characters she'swritten you for these words like
baroque and like correctedconnected sentences here I'm
going to have to sharpen up myfucking pencils.

Speaker 2 (40:50):
I feel at home.
We need more crazy femalevillains.

Speaker 4 (40:54):
I think yes.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
I'm all for it.
I mean, I think it's, it'sinteresting that she shifts from
friend to villain.
I just that's what I think isreally fun and unexpected and it
works really well because thepayoff in the end oh also, can
we just jump ahead to the endscene, the in sequence, fucking
scared like right, it really islegit.
Like I think that the way theyshift it to it's not about again

(41:18):
thinking about wizards and likewitchcraft and this kind of you
could easily be like I'm goingto conjure up a stone person or
I'm going to do this.
No, they.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
And it's an shaky light savers.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
No, they fuck with each other's heads, which also
kind of matches that teen teengirl, teen girl girl girl.
But it's fabulous, it isdownright.
It's scary as shit.
You're like what's real andwhat's not and they're talking
into like cutting herself, and Iwas like, oh my God, this is
like it's so hard to watchunravel.

Speaker 4 (41:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Let it go Peace.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
Ultimate, what's the opposite of female friendship,
or what's like the scariest flipside of that is your three
friends ganging up on you and,by the way, they're all witches
with crazy power.

Speaker 2 (42:05):
Right yeah, Right yeah, and they have.
I mean the the flight crashthing and just setting that all
up and getting her alone in thehouse.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
So her, yeah, I need to talk through a few of these
elements here.
Sure, because this is wonderful, because I do have a few couple
of so, the flight, the flightand her parents dying.
That was in her head.
They put that in her head.

Speaker 4 (42:26):
That was a glamour.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Yeah, okay, glamour, fabulous, and then the snakes
and the bugs and all that shit.
Does she cut herself or doesNancy cut her?
Nancy?

Speaker 4 (42:38):
cut her yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
So Nancy cut her and she runs away because that, so
that confrontation was real?
I think so.

Speaker 4 (42:46):
I have to look at the shots.
Yeah, yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
I think that's the story that's being told.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:52):
Because then everything becomes direct
battling and then Sarah turnsover and takes over Nancy, doing
the same kind of thing to herwith bugs and things, but more
directly to her body, likeshaping her fingers.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
Yeah, which is like what's worse than bugs and
festing.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Your home is bugs and festing your body.
You Right One level up Props tothese writers.
And also teen girl cruelty isto like to, because if you have
a deep, intimate friendship witheach other, the idea to use
those things about you todestroy you Against you.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
So what happens?
Nancy gets like or sorry, sarah, gets pushed against the wall
like they're in, they fightagainst the wall which is trying
to bind her.
Then she gets hit by a desk butthen vanishes, right, so is
this like just an opticalillusion or she did like
disappear?
Because that I found sort ofconfusing, because then Nancy
takes a knife and goes to stabher Because, yeah, what?
Comes back and kicks her away.

(43:41):
So I'm sorry I'm getting realdeep into the shot, I think that
that's I.

Speaker 4 (43:45):
As I was rewatching it yesterday, I noted that and I
was like I think this is, it'sa great movie, but I think that
there's a few beats in therethat don't quite work.
I think it was wasn't staged aswell as it could be, because it
is confusing.
The thing hits the wall, Nancyjumps out of the way.
Supposedly it hits Sarah, butthen the way that the camera is

(44:07):
it's like now in a high anglelooking into the corner and the
chest or whatever that hit themis nowhere to be seen.
So I think that's a little bitof like.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
And we can honestly just forgive it because it's an
action sequence.
So it is what it is.
We don't need that, that's likesome of these things you don't
need, you don't want to look atclosely because you don't want
to break the aggregate of thefeeling.
Yeah, so that might.
I was just wondering to fight,I want to be sure I didn't miss
something and I don't think itreads as it plays.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Yeah, I think we're all in agreement of how that
read.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
So it makes me think, then, what do we, how do we
take away from the end with withBonnie and Rochelle?

Speaker 1 (44:44):
coming back to Sarah, you know, and that was also an
interesting choice that theycame back, because it's sort of
up until then they've each beenindividuals with their own
characters and their own powers,and I felt like in that moment
they kind of became thecollective, like sort of like
sidekicks.
You know what I mean.

Speaker 4 (44:58):
But I think that that was part of their trajectory
before that.
Like in the in the late secondact, as they're all starting to
gang up on Sarah, those twostart to become the sidekicks.
I think it starts in the carscene when they're driving
through this.

Speaker 2 (45:12):
Right, the lights yeah.
Then the girls in the back arelike they're just egging it on,
yeah, and living through theexperience.
And then, of course, when Nancyis gone, what is their identity
?
Because where have they puttheir identity as friends?

Speaker 3 (45:26):
But I also feel like, after a huge fights where
you're like girlfriends, there'sthis, this, this awkwardness of
coming back together.
It's like, hey, did this reallyhappen?
Do you feel the way, jen, thereason that they came back at
the end?
There's a possibility whereeverybody could like become
friends again because, also,everyone's too young to have

(45:47):
that kind of power, everyone'sway too young to be in charge of
that.

Speaker 2 (45:51):
Yep, yeah, and they're like oh boy, did we?

Speaker 3 (45:54):
uh, you got to be practical magic level old for
that kind of power.
This is everybody's too young.

Speaker 4 (45:59):
Well, what I think we need from?
I know there was a sequel.
Wow, but from another sequel isall of them in their forties
now Sure.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Coming back together.
I mean, we do need to sign meup for that.
That would be awesome.

Speaker 3 (46:12):
Yeah, I think the vibe would probably be like,
which is another great movieabout female friendship, and
chaotic female friendship is hersmell.
Oh, oh yeah, yeah.
And when I watched it because,like every, because it's like
again like the crap.
They are chaotic, they haveproblems, they like every, like
drunk, drinking drugs, but inthe end it's like they're back

(46:33):
together.
It's like the bands backtogether were friends.
Because that's just.
Somehow sometimes there's likemessy friendships.
Friendships are not as we seeon sitcoms all the time.
They're all like wild.
You know, talk to peopleanymore.
Nancy goes to the asylum.
Maybe she comes back, maybe shegoes like.
Maybe maybe she should rethinkwhat I did in the 90s.
Yeah, and having on that power,you know it's like.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
I mean, because one of the things that I think that
you know I take away is thatOscar Wilde like if the gods
want to punish us, they give uswhat we ask for, and like, so
it's like, what is it?
You know, what does Nancy askfor?
You know, and it's kind ofamazing, but I think to your
point with with, like, a logicalconclusion.
Or, as we're growing up, wealso saw it too because of how

(47:15):
important this film was and whatit set off, because those
things weren't explored reallybefore this.
And then we did explore it morein the witchcraft, I would say
more so than in the femalerelationships, it seems, in a
lot of the more mainstream.
But there's a lot of that thatwe could circle back on and that
we did see that you weretalking about.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah, and at a very concrete level, just stories
about alternative girls, punkgirls, goth girls.
That's like in a super popculture movie.
It's critical to see that.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah, I think that's a great point.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
And the music.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Oh, Grandma.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
Bell friends.
That soundtrack is so iconic.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yes, the soundtrack is.

Speaker 3 (47:57):
And just when I hear the music at the goth club.
It's like the craft.

Speaker 1 (48:03):
You know, I think.

Speaker 4 (48:04):
House to News Now by the Smiths, was another
emblematic song of the 90s orlate 90s.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
with that, yeah, and math you sweet.
You know it's like, and jewelis in there, you know yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
But the composer go ahead, go ahead.
Oh no, I was going to say I wasgoing to just jump in here and
say like I think I know that ourmisguided spirits are.
When I hit them up about likehey, we're doing the craft and
they're talking about doing thecocktail, the guy was like our
contact there Hit me back.
He's like oh, no way, I wasjust listening to the soundtrack
to the craft yesterday, so Iknow that they're going to love
this one.

Speaker 3 (48:38):
It's a cool movie about cool girls with a cool
soundtrack.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (48:42):
And when I was, and when I was very young, I
remember I was at the WarnerBrothers store at the mall and I
saw a picture of Marlon Brandoas the wild one and how cool he
looked.
And I remember asking my mommom, how come I don't see any
images in society of girlslooking that cool?
So it's always been my pathlike to see movies, work with
filmmakers.

(49:03):
It's like fucking cool girls.
The craft is about cool fuckinggirls who have autonomy.
Yeah, that's part of it.
Their characters have autonomyand their character.

Speaker 4 (49:13):
You know, again it's.
It's about other things besideslike boys, which a lot of those
90s it's about killing boys,which is important.

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Yes, that's a very good point, you know it does.
All the best films areMidsummer Romance X all about
killing boys.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Man yeah, and even the early reference West Side
Story.
Oh, jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
You're welcome.
So my favorite line of the film.
I just got to say they bust themom bust into the room.
Has the towel?
I got some clean towels.
I go mom, are you girls gettinghigh?
I was like this is the bestfucking line.
Good, that is like you know.
Whenever you read that in thescript and you're auditioning,
you're like if I get this part,it's going to make my career.
There's no way I'm walking outof this without like a big A

(49:59):
plus top of the reel right atthe front.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Are you guys getting high, you guys getting high?
I do also want to say I mean, Iknow we talk about the
soundtrack, which is iconic, butalso I mean the guy who
composed it composed the crow.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
Oh yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 2 (50:15):
Yeah, and it's like there's, you mean, the music
supervisor or the score, thescore and it's just I don't know
so underappreciated and becauseI'm talking about the needle
drops.
Oh, yes, yeah, needle drops.

Speaker 3 (50:29):
And also like, because I was just thinking
about, like, what are the moviesthat are iconic during the day?
It's like the craft and thecrow yeah, the crow soundtrack.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
It's incredible.
Grammar Val.
I think that's how you yeah,like just nice, yeah it's, and
just it changed so much, itinfluenced so much and we don't
even talk about it.

Speaker 3 (50:49):
Yeah, it was all, and it was all the great post punk
during the time Right.
And again, it's not only likepost punk for us or like
alternative girls like us, oralternative girls want to be
witches like us.
It was a pop culture phenomenonLike you could see these movies
in any kind of mall.
You could go to like a Jerseymall and watch the craft and
watch the crow and hear thismusic and everyone heard the

(51:09):
music.

Speaker 2 (51:10):
It was playing in every mall, everywhere, all the
time, yeah, and in my car.
But so I don't know what we'regoing to say.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
I've got like a couple of fun little things that
I noticed while we were goingthrough.
Hank.
So like in the party scene whenthey're all come like where
Chris, before Chris dies,everybody's drinking beer, I
assume, out of like soup to gocontainers.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (51:34):
I saw that they weren't solo cups.
They weren't solo cups andthey're like these little soup
to go containers but like thetall ones and if you go back and
watch they're all drinking outof those.
And I was like that's aninteresting, was Walmart out of
solo cups this day when the propshop went down?

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Yeah, no, they were running late on a meal break and
they just had to grab all thethings.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
They just grabbed whatever was closest, so that
was a pretty fun one.
I also thought you know in likeagain, like this, and I always
say like doing these.
The movie's awesome.
I really love fucking watchingthe movie.
It's fantastic.
I think that Sarah at the endof the film every time she's
running did anybody else knowshe's running with her arms like
directly out to the side?

Speaker 4 (52:11):
It is a weird run.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
She has a very, very odd run.
It's like I think you know thisis the movie that, like Tom
Cruise, saw and got afraid ofbeing filmed running.

Speaker 4 (52:22):
I think he's like I'm going to do it in every movie
now you know, I actually waswondering if that was like if
the director asked her to runlike that or that was an actor
choice, like where the choicecame from, because it is a very
interesting run and it isconsistent, like through the
house, when she's tripping outand everything she's moving,
like her arms are just so wideout to the side.

Speaker 1 (52:43):
It's just a very odd sort of stumble move.
It feels like when it may beone of those things where it's
like, hey, you're running toofast, so can you slow down so
that we can follow it with acamera and time the shot out or
whatever, and then it justsomehow the timing of her moving
through space didn't add up tohuman.
You know what I mean.
Added up to cinema fake, youknow a?

Speaker 2 (53:06):
little bit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:07):
I could see that.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
No, no one else, no, no, I'm here for it.

Speaker 4 (53:12):
I had that feeling, that thought as well.

Speaker 2 (53:15):
I had a question for us If we had to tell someone to
watch this movie who'd neverseen it, had no context for it.

Speaker 4 (53:25):
They would be an alien.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Yeah, like now from Earth.
Well to your point aboutconnecting dots later.
Right, obviously they may havehad dots connected, but maybe
they didn't see it.
They've never connected thosedots and you're like you need to
see this and they say why.

Speaker 3 (53:43):
I would ask them if they watched the Wednesday show
first.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Like the one on Netflix.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Yeah, because it's the idea.
It's like do you want to watchit?
Like cool goth girls and a coolstuff.
I mean that, Because there isbecause you can draw an analogy
to yeah, you can draw a linefrom this to that, for sure.
Goth girl representation.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Yeah, I mean great, Both really great shows.
I really enjoyed it a lot.

Speaker 3 (54:07):
And the focus is on a very cool female character.
Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
And Tim Burton I don't know how I can relate this
, but I'm going to do it anyway.
I'm a king of terrible seguesIs Tim Burton also admitted that
he took Jack from Return to Oz?
He is on record and said Iabsolutely love it.
It struck me, it terrified meand it changed me, and I wanted

(54:36):
to tell a story about this thing.
Yeah, so anyway, interesting.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
So I've got a couple of fun facts here about the
movie that I looked up.
I thought we're pretty fun.
Casting took like a year ninemonths to a year to figure out.
They were really having a hardtime figuring it out.
Other people considered forthese roles Alicia Silverstone,
scarlett Johansson and I thinkshe was only 12 at the time, so
it didn't seem like a realserious one and then Angelina
Jolie.
All three were seriouslyconsidered for the role.

Speaker 4 (55:07):
For Sarah.
For a combinations of all ofthem.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
I think the only one they had cast in the beginning
was I can't honestly rememberLike I read, but I can't
remember which one it was- Jolieis Nancy.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
Yeah, if you're going to have, so I would think it
would be Sarah.
I think it would be RobinTunney is who they probably had
first.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Yeah, and I know that god, her name just escaped me
now.
But the woman ends up playingSarah wanted to play Nancy.
It was like, oh, trying toinsist on playing Nancy, yeah,
and then they talked her andthey're like no, no, no, you
need to play the lead role, notthe smaller role.
Also the lead role that wethink fits you better.
That was a very interestingsort of thing.
So, yeah, we've already talkedabout they're inspired by the

(55:48):
characters are inspired bygoddess, archetypes and earth
elements.
So Sarah is earth, bonnie, withthe power of foresight, is wind
, rachelle the diver is waterand Nancy, of course, is fire
and Robin Tunney.
This is a fun.
I thought this was actually thefunnest, one of the funnest
facts.
She wasn't actually.
She wasn't first cast, she'sone of the last.

(56:09):
Because she was there.
She became the reader and soshe was reading against everyone
else that was auditioning.

Speaker 4 (56:15):
And they're like, oh, we like what she's doing and
she ended up getting cast.
Whoa, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (56:19):
Oh, that is pretty crazy.
And to be in all of that thewhole time being like doot, doot
, doot.
I'm right here, I'm perfect forthis.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
So here's a question for you boys Now, when we watch
the craft it was sort of we getthe sort of iconic quality of
like cool alternative girlswhich craft the messiness of
female friendships.
When you see cool girls withcool soundtracks and sort of
like their messy friendships,what do you think?
Because I know a lot of likealternative guys in my life
fucking love the craft and gothat those friendships, those

(56:49):
girls that's also me.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yeah.
I mean I think you know in twostages of this I'll answer stage
one.
Like 90s version of me wasn'treally into wanting really into
movies.
When I was watching movies theywere like from the 70s and the
60s because that's like what wehad around my house, so like I
remember seeing this at like afriend's house, but it didn't
really.
I was probably more interestedin trying to light something on
fire at this point than I was inwatching a movie.

(57:11):
So you know, like as an adult Iwould see I love very well made
movies with, you know, strongfemale villains, protagonists I
don't.
I don't think gender to mematters as much as it's the
character to be really strongand be well, well made.
I mean that's the same thing.
It's like I don't really likebig marvel movies all the time
because I just don't believe inthe stakes.

(57:33):
The thing this movie does sowell is establishes really
strong stakes early and that'swhat I think so cool is.
They all have these individualpockets of things they're
fighting against and then youwatch them sort of explore and
then it goes a differentdirection, like it totally then
takes a right turn after it setsup all the, all the characters
and what they're like things arethey kind of get what they want
and then it does something else.
But for me, I think it's superfun and I enjoy watching the

(57:58):
fight.
You know that they all gothrough and that's why so
honestly, that's why it's scary,because it comes down to the
last scene.
I love feeling like that youall, somebody you care for, that
you're watching, has foughtwith everything they've got and
you feel like they're about tototally lose it all, and then
right at the end, they somehowpull it back and bring it back
in.
I mean I think it's fuckingright.
No matter, no matter who's inthe driving seat, as far as

(58:20):
gender or identity or whatever.
They come here for the fightand the passion, the willing and
the, the risk that, the chanceto lose, and when you know.
That's what I love about movieslike this.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Yeah, yeah, tell me the question again.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Yeah, I answered like four different versions of it,
so I want to know which?

Speaker 2 (58:39):
I'll answer them all.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
Yeah, the idea that this movie is about like cool,
cool, witchy girls in messyrelationships and that in my
life, a lot of sort of like allguys, it's like, as Jen and I
are saying, like this is us theyhave also said the same about
them.
It's like I get, I get, I getthe craft.
I am Nancy and they saw it aswell, but they're, like you know
, punk guys, goth guys, yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
I think anybody who says they don't identify with it
it hasn't watched it.
I think that they're like nomatter or is just not being
honest with themselves.
And that's what I mean by this,like Nancy's approach, so
honestly and just, I'll speak toher and Sarah's relationship
specifically that it is messy.
And there is the outside girlwho you think is going to be,
you know, your friend and you'relike, wait, but she's more

(59:23):
powerful and it's like, and it'smessy, it's just, it is what it
is.
And so I would say, from frommy experience to when I for my
first reaction was I didn't knowI could see stories like this.
That was the first.
I was like, oh, I didn't, ok.
And then number two was very, Iwas just I realized I had a

(59:48):
type and just to get that outthere, but also to to look at
how Nancy navigated things andas a just a frickin teenager and
I was like anybody who's notgoing to find something to glom
on here is not actually seeingthe film.

(01:00:08):
They might watch it but they'renot seeing it.
And I think that's where there'san aesthetic that somebody
might not want to, you know,talk about.
There there's, you know,structure or whatever, but there
is just an authenticity thatabsolutely rings through that
you could talk about, nancy, youknow, in the, in the same
sentence as we were talkingabout earlier, with a street car

(01:00:30):
, you know, and and I think thatthat deep wrestling with that
kind of messiness, and that'swhat I mean.
I mean street car.
You look at what he's doing.
He is so frightening and,because you never know, he's
light on his feet and you mean astreet car named desire?
Yeah, and because the way he'sjust like he's fluid, you never
know where he's going to go andthen when he rips like it's just

(01:00:51):
terrifying and he's just tryingto figure out what's going on
inside of him.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
So is Nancy, it's like a Max Katie as well, yeah
yeah, yes, oh, my God yes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
This film does have shades of Tennessee Williams
when you think about it becauseit's spirit of vengeance, yes,
spirit of vengeance.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Yeah, the middle of vengeance?
Yes, exactly, just somethingthat kind of.
I think all the stories we tell, I mean this kind of, goes to
that hero's journey, right, likelike there's something deep
that is just guttural, that'sjust rich and universal to using
it that with that word, thatway.
But it's just something it'sundeniable, it's an.
It's an undeniable and ainescapable beauty.

Speaker 3 (01:01:28):
But do you see this as why this is the greatest film
of the 90s?

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
No, I mean, I think, yes, there you go.
Yeah, we just we spent all thistime to make Heather's argument
.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
Heather said it since the beginning.

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Yeah, so why she's like it is?

Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
the greatest film of the 90s.
It's about cool girls doingcool, looking cool and doing
cool witchcraft.

Speaker 2 (01:01:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
I mean she's period.
You don't need to talk aboutthe rest.

Speaker 2 (01:01:47):
I think she's been saying shut the fuck up, razor,
that we're done.
And we were like, no, we got todo Euclidean geometry.

Speaker 3 (01:01:53):
And it's not, and the idea that it's not just for us,
it's for all of us, right, yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:01:57):
I think everybody identifies with complicated
characters, regardless of gender, and these are complicated
characters.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Yeah, I completely agree.
Yeah, so I mean, this isamazing.
I want to.
Ok, yeah, no, go, go.
What do you do?
What do you want?
No go.
What are you talking about?
If I start again, are you goingto start now?

Speaker 2 (01:02:17):
No, no, ok, great, you start.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
It was amazing having you guys here.
Thank you guys so much for likecoming and doing this with us.
Oh yeah, very, I mean, we're soexcited to see sacrifice game.
Yeah.
It just came out Fantasia andnow about to hit it, fright Fest
, where we also have our worldpremiere.
Well, it's world premiere forus.
I've heard.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
I've heard We'll be there, so we can't wait to see
her.
We're so excited.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
We can't wait to party with you guys in London
and see sacrifice game.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
It's going to be a great time.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
See sacrifice game.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Yes, it's going to be a hell of a good time Little
Christmas in August.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
So Hell yeah, if you're out there, how do we
follow you guys to keep up witheverything that's going on with
your work?

Speaker 4 (01:02:55):
I'm on Instagram at bubblegum and blood and the
sacrifice game is on Instagramat the sacrifice game.

Speaker 3 (01:03:03):
I'm on all the social media.
You can follow Heather Buckleyand you can also follow my
company, black Mansion.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
And Matt Mundy.
How about you?

Speaker 2 (01:03:11):
Oh, just come on at me, over at Mo Mundy.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
And on Instagram, right it?

Speaker 2 (01:03:15):
is on Instagram, yeah , and of course you know our
film heardfilm.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
And you can follow me at Steven C Pierce, and thank
you guys very much for listening.
Hope everybody really enjoysthe craft.
I think we got to the bottom ofit here and I'll see you guys
next time.
Woo, let's go.

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FrightFest, London Special Release | The Craft | with guests Jenn Wexler & Heather Buckley

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}FrightFest, London Special Release | The Craft | with guests Jenn Wexler & Heather Buckley