September 14, 2023 • 23 mins
We have a real treat for you today, film aficionados! hosts Steven Pierce and Matt Mundy sat down with Andrew Fleming, the visionary mind behind the iconic 90's movie, The Craft. Let him take you on a journey through his versatile career that has seen him work on a range of projects from the Michael J Fox Show and Younger to Dolly Parton's Heartstrings. Get ready to hear about the extensive research he conducted into Wicca and paganism to infuse a sense of realism into The Craft. And brace yourself for his hilarious anecdote about filming 10,000 cold and uncooperative snakes!
This episode is a treasure trove of behind-the-scenes secrets. Fleming walks us through his time in film school, his early projects, and the nail-biting process of casting The Craft. We talk the trials of working within a tight schedule and the challenges he encountered during production.
Finally, we tip our hats to The Craft, a cult movie that made an indelible mark on pop culture. Fleming shares his thoughts on the movie's success and the unexpected reactions it stirred. From his early career to the casting process, and the standout elements that made The Craft a hit, this is a conversation that every movie buff will appreciate. Tune in and join us for a deep dive into the creative mind of Andrew Fleming.
HAPPY HOUR FLIX is a podcast all about the movies you love and love to talk about. A nostalgic look at what we grew up watching and how they still impact us today.
Hey all, a quick reminder, no matter where you are listening to us, if you could rate us and drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, we’d be so grateful - it really helps us spread the good vibes. Thank you!
HAPPY HOUR FLIX is produced by James Allerdyce and Lori Kay, and hosted by Steven Pierce and Matt Mundy.
Main Title is by Johnny Mineo.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, happy hour, friends.
In likening to DVD bonusmaterial, today we have an
episode for you.
Recently, we released the Craftwith Gin Wexler and Heather
Buckley.
Our friends go check that outon our feed for the full episode
.
But we got a special treat foryou today.
In this little episode, wespeak with Andrew Fleming, who
(00:22):
happens to be the writer anddirector of the Craft.
So check it out.
Okay, matt, we have a veryexciting guest here.
It is truly, truly my honor toget to speak today with the
director and co-writer of theCraft, andrew Fleming.
(00:43):
And I mean Andrew, you've hadsuch a diverse career.
I mean starting.
You did films before the Craft,but obviously the Craft kind of
goes to a new stratosphere of asort of you know, like, you
know viability and like seeinginto, like eyes, getting on it
in the world.
But you've also worked on arest of development Michael J
(01:05):
Fox show, younger I mean so manyepisodes of Emily in Paris and,
honestly, personally myfavorite.
That I think, just shows youryour range.
So much the Craft and DollyParton's Heartstrings on Netflix
in 2019.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I look some surface like multiple
personality disorder.
Yeah, I do, I just did some.
I look back, I wasn't the planI.
I just, if you've done one kindof thing, I kind of want to do
something else.
Like the first movie I did wasa horror movie and then the
second one was a comedy and thenthe third one was the Craft,
(01:40):
which is a horror movie to acertain degree and then after
that I only made comedy.
So it was really very.
I remember one one of my agentsonce is no longer my agent
saying boy, andy, you reallydon't make it easy.
Nobody ever say well, that'swhat Andy does.
It was always.
I was always evading any kindof pigeonholing.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, absolutely, how did it is so?
I mean, we obviously you'retalking very much about the
Craft on our podcast and itseems like, from everything I've
learned, urban legend sort ofsurrounds this film, you know,
like the stories in the processof the witchcraft and everything
that was happening, and kind ofmirroring the story in some
elements, or not.
I mean, do you remember any ofthe craziness and were you aware
(02:24):
of it at the time you weremaking the film?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Oh yeah, I mean I don't know specifically what
you're talking about, but it wasreally while we were shooting
it that some strange thingshappened.
But I know they've oftenreported.
But it was a complicatedprocess getting the movie made.
I was sent it originally justto do a rewrite and I said if
(02:48):
you're interested in directingit, you can direct it.
But I didn't want to do anotherhorror movie so I said I would
just do the rewrite on it and itdid the work.
And in the process of rewritingI did a lot of research about
paganism and witchcraft and youknow all of that, and met a lot
(03:09):
of witches and pagans and wentto ceremonies and things and it
was suddenly like what I wasseeing, the reality of Wicca was
so much more interesting thanwhatever, whatever I'd ever seen
in a movie.
So I thought there was anopportunity to do something that
felt you know real on somelevel, that you could buy it,
(03:31):
because my favorite horrormovies are things like
Rosemary's Baby, oh yes, kind ofa basis of folklore and reality
.
There's a baseline of realityand then you sort of gradually
get taken into this, you knowmagical nightmare, and so, yeah,
that was, that was sort of theidea behind it.
(03:52):
But at a certain point I was sointo it that I said I wanted to
direct it.
It was right when they said,well, we're going to start going
out to directors.
So they said, well, maybe Iwant to direct it.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So you talk yourself into it over the process.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I did, yeah, wow, and I was going to on that.
I wanted to ask I guess it'sagain is this the lore of it and
the reality of like the in theend, with the, with the, the
bugs and the maggots and thesnakes and everything the
practicals of that, and like thehouse being sealed and roaches
(04:29):
being bred not being able toreproduce?
Is this, is this right?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, there were.
There was a bunch of roachesbut they were sterile so that
they wouldn't if they got awaythey wouldn't reproduce and
infest the stage.
The most of the house was on astage Right but there was a real
house that matched a practicalhouse.
(04:58):
That matched the front hallwayand the living room, I believe,
was the location, whereas thestairs and her bedroom upstairs
were the set.
But there was some overlap.
But you know, we had all thosecritters in both locations.
(05:19):
The the one real mishap was wehad the snakes outside of the
stairs and the annual regular,Boon Narr, who's like a gonzo
guy, a great guy.
He wanted to have a recordamount of snakes, so he brought
10,000 snakes, a lot of them,anyone.
So he had them in buckets.
(05:40):
He had these giant buckets ofsnakes, like oil barrel sized
buckets, and I just look, youtake the lid off and say, yeah,
there's like a thousand snakesin there.
But it was very strange, but itwas a cold night and so when we
put them on the ground he says,by the way, when snakes get
cold they just freeze up, theyjust stay still to conserve
(06:01):
energy.
And I said, ok, great, so weput all these snakes everywhere
and they just look like rubbersnakes.
So we ended up having to shootthat.
But then we shot snakes againstthe green screen that we're
moving.
We matted them on top of thereal snakes.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh, that's hilarious.
So like, in the end it probablywas more work to have the real
snakes they would have just beento rubber.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But we've got the record.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, that reminds years ago.
Matt and I were making a shortfilm that I was directing, and
it was just a little thing wehad butterflies, oh my God that
featured in it and it was in themiddle of the night.
In this awesome location in NewYork called Fort Tottenham.
We're like in this old, liketunnel, like this concrete, like
you know, where they used tostore cannonballs and stuff in
the Civil War, and it's freezingcold and we've got all these
(06:51):
damn butterflies.
And they do the same thing whenit's cold.
They don't move.
So we got like a heater inthere and you're like trying to
warm up and then quick, quickget the shot.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I'm literally blowing on these butterflies to give
them some hot air.
That would wake them up.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I remember now there was a question of should we use
real butterflies in the scenewhere the girls are in the
forest and the butterflies swarmaround them and and the animal
ring.
I said it's just impossible,they're impossible, you can't,
can't work with butterflies.
So we're making a movie at Sonyand they had to start at this
visual effects company, sonyImageworks and they.
We talked to them and they saidthey were interested in writing
(07:26):
proprietary software to mapbutterflies, movement and, you
know, to create software,because none of it existed and
that was really the beginning ofdigital effects.
So they wrote softwarespecifically for those
butterflies of the movie.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Oh, that's a great scene.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, it's so beautiful, you have so many like
forward thinking kind ofeffects.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I mean.
I think even the end, like thesnakes and everything I mean it
goes nuts at the end where youknow things are changing and
she's becoming snakes and allthat I mean when you're filming
that her mouth.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And a lot of that was digital effects right.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, yes, at the end when she's when Farooza kind of
turns into Maduza and that'sher.
That that was all digital, yes,and in that sequence we didn't
have any real bugs or snakeswith.
Everything was digitized and itwas.
It was not a very big budgetmovie, so the effects that are
(08:22):
throughout it my, my theory wasit should really be something
you haven't seen before, becauseif it's sort of just you know,
if we're spending money puttingclouds outside a window or
something like that, then it's apoint to it.
It should really be.
Everything should be magical.
And the.
We really didn't have enoughmoney to do the ending of the
(08:42):
movie properly.
So we kind of did everythingright except the ending.
We kind of gave it shortshrifts.
It was a fight between Sarahand Nancy, but it was kind of
quicker and not as messy and mytheory was like let's get a good
preview.
And then the.
The series was very reluctantthe whole time we were making
(09:02):
the movie so and they reallysaid you can only have this much
money and we were reallystruggling against the budget.
But when we had a preview, wehad the first preview.
It was Off the charts.
The only thing is people were alittle bit disappointed by the
ending, and the studio had thisreally brilliant idea Like why
don't we spend some more moneyon the ending when we shot that
(09:23):
scene where her hair turns intosnakes and that that little part
of the fight we added?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh yeah, I think what is it?
George Lucas says like you knowit's, you know not, filmmaking
is not like it's not making thebest film, it's making the best
film under the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, and that feeling I know.
It's no matter how big yourbudget is or how little it is,
it's the same thing.
You're doing the most with the,the money in the time that you
have, and that's really all youcan do.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, of course I mean it doesn't tell me to your
credit.
This is like when I think,watch, watching this, I'm like
God.
This takes me right back to,you know, high school in the 90s
.
I mean, it is just, it feelslike quintessential, and that's
not that's not a fact.
You know what I mean?
That's not a fact.
That's that's texture and tone,tone and just it.
(10:14):
In my opinion you really nailedit like you really feel that
time and place in that film somuch.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It was a.
It was weird because the I whenI got the script it was about
four girls in witchcraft, but alot of the storylines were
different.
I Added the bird scar thing,for Bonnie Was a character, was
a girl in college who apparentlyhad Stars all over her body but
(10:44):
she wore a lot of clothing soyou never saw them and it was
more disturbing to not see them.
And the the, the racist thingwith the racial character,
wasn't black in the originalscript and I I said there has to
be somebody who's not a whiteperson in the four and was some
mirror, something that happenedin my high school.
(11:06):
That is not that, but it was.
It was a form of kind of youknow or I'm a bullying, and so I
personalized, I brought in alot of Things that had happened
to me because my, my experiencein high school was not John
Hughes, it was not, you knowright, you know, flirting, it
was really it was.
It was a very academic schooland it was an all-boys school
(11:27):
and it was religious school.
It was very intense and a lotof people Buckled under the
stress of it and it was.
It was like dark, it was veryGothic and I thought like I want
to see that.
I've never seen high school.
You know scary high school, sowe were just yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So we were just in Frightfest in London and, yeah,
and I was mentioned to somebodyI can't remember where we were
having a pint somewhere andwe're talking about the craft,
and I was like, hey, we just didthis podcast, you know, on the
craft and the.
The response was like immediate, they're like, oh my god, the
hair in the shower.
They're just like, and that, Ithink, is probably one of the
most lasting, because it is man,it's pretty gruesome like, it's
(12:09):
very very.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, the Christine Taylor moment with in the.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, the scars on the scar in the blood, like with
her hair.
It's like, ooh, it's just sotangible.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I think that that's really funny and laugh about it
and and I will say when we, whenwe shot that I was, it's like
evil, like laughs and going on.
People like I thought I was ahorrible person, but it was, you
know.
Yeah, I guess I'm a horribleTrying to stay in the shower.
(12:41):
So I love her.
She's great.
I've worked with her a coupleof times since then.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So let me ask, do you ever go back and like watch
your earlier work, at this point, like having gone through such
a storied and varied career,like is this something that just
lives in memory for you, or doyou?
Is this continually come up?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I haven't seen it in a long time.
But it's, it's the movie thatcomes back into my life
continuously.
I, you know people talk to youabout things you've done, but
it's like I don't think a daygoes by where somebody doesn't
say something to be, or send mea message or DM me or comment on
something constantly.
(13:20):
So it's like it's alive.
It just never goes away in mybrain.
But I don't, I don't know, I, Ithink I remember at the end of
it thinking the script was, it'sskip was pretty good, but it
was, it was flawed, and thatonce we saw the movie cut
together we had to kind ofrearrange things and re-shoot
(13:43):
and restructure it a little bit.
But I wish the script had beensharper to begin with.
But it ended up being okay.
But I, I remember thinking itwas pretty well directed.
I don't know I, it's I.
When I watched something back,I just think like, oh, I would
have done that differently.
Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,
ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew.
I think that's probably mostdirectors.
(14:04):
Yeah, we're going back.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
One.
This was your third right.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
The third movie I did .
But the thing is I startedmaking movies when I was like a
little kid.
I played a bunch of high schooland then I went to film school
where I made somewhere about 30short films, right.
So I was very busy.
Yeah, it was a.
It was a.
I was very type A when I wasvery, very young.
(14:36):
I'm a little bit more relaxednow.
I was, to be honest, things goand take it easy and let to have
fun.
But it was a.
It was an intense experience.
It was also very intensebecause it was really half day,
half night, the whole thing.
So that meant that we wereconstantly going back and forth.
(14:56):
We would start on days onMonday and we'd end up shooting
all Friday night and Saturdaymorning.
So it was, everybody was jetlagged constantly, like every
single week was that schedule,except the few weeks were on the
stage.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, those are, those are the most brutal weeks.
So you start like at 4 am andthen you end up with an
overnight Friday night, theFriday day, it like that's a,
that's a, that's rough, roughfor everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Our earliest call I ever had was on the craft I
think it was 2 am because wewanted to be shooting at LAX at
dawn to do this shot of thetheme building and her getting
out of getting into a car, andwe had to be there before the
ready to shoot, before the suncame up.
It was brutal, brutal, brutal,wow.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
How did the cast come about on this Cause it was
quite, I think.
From what I read, it seems likeit was quite a process to like
get this up and going.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
It was.
It was actually the mostdifficult part of the whole
thing was casting it, because Iwent in and as soon as I was
directing it I said like I justdon't want, you know, just every
celebrity girl that's on TV tobe in this movie.
And you know, at the time therewasn't a whole generation of
young actors that was reallyjust like Winona Ryder, right,
(16:13):
and we knew that she was notinterested and she was, she was
too big of a star and she justwasn't interested.
So it was we really had to gofind people and the studio kept
suggesting like celebrity that'son this sitcom and I was like
you know, I'm not emotionallyinvested in that person and I
would bring in you know indieactor who'd only done one thing
(16:36):
and there was just a lot offriction about it.
And it went on for eight ornine months, the casting part,
and we made test deals with, Ithink, 85 young women, wow, and
they came into audition and thenwe would go to a, we would go
to an office or somewhere andput them on tape properly and we
(16:57):
did that.
I think it was 85 people andeverybody.
That's that generation I sawthey came in and I don't like
listing them, but like peoplewho went on to win Oscars, sure,
and I could get them approvedand it was a.
It was a process, but early onin the process I saw I'd seen
(17:19):
Caruza in gas food lodging andthen I met with her and she was
practicing and Pagan and she wasjust so I got this as the
person.
And actually before that RachelTrue came in and she was just
so funny and she was.
She'd such a great look andshe's very, very smart and I she
(17:40):
was the first one cast and thenfor is a and then the other two
parts were very elusive.
Originally Robin Tiny wasplaying the part that Ned
Campbell plays and then we askedher if she would be interested
in the lead and she didn'treally want to do it.
I kind of had to twist her armto be the lead of the movie and
she eventually said yes.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
That's amazing.
I mean, that is quite theprocess.
And yeah, you did indeed seeeveryone of the generation
that's, and that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So, andrew, I want to ask, like last question here,
is we really appreciate youtaking the time?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I last and half.
Last and half.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
OK, I was going to say, like you know, over having
done so many different thingsand having such a journey here,
what have you learned?
You know what I mean, Becausewe're like you know, we're early
on our filmmaking career here.
We have one feature film out,we're moving on, so to the next
one.
What have you learned, kind ofover time, that you know if
you'd known when you wereyounger, you know would have
been useful for you.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Well it's, you know, it's all changed so much.
So much because I won't evensay how long I've been doing
this, but I think the thing, thething that has been my guiding
principle from the beginning andI didn't really understand it
was that for the most part, Ifelt like pursuing projects
(19:00):
where I where you say I haven'tseen that before, or or or or or
haven't seen a version of thatin a long time, or I haven't
seen the best version of that,like you know, at the time that
the craft was coming about,there were no teen horror movies
.
There had been, years before,you know, slasher movies, but
(19:21):
that had kind of run its courseand horror movies had kind of
become about pretty Cougar andthey were, they were, they were
very much one thing, and thereweren't movies about teenage
girls.
I think there had only been,maybe Clueless I think this came
(19:42):
out while we were prepping butthere wasn't a genre of, of of
teenage movies and and so I felt, you know, and this was kind of
crass, but I felt like therewas a need in the marketplace,
like I feel like nobody,nobody's making that movie, do
that, pursue that.
And it's harder because peoplesay, well, that's not what's
popular now, but it did fulfilla deed and it was.
(20:05):
You know, it was a popularmovie out of nowhere, and so I
feel like everything that I'vedone, I feel like it's really
important to try to be original,to do something that you really
haven't seen before.
People say, well, I need tocheck that out because it's it's
different, and then at least,at the very least, then you've
been original.
(20:25):
Horror movies are hard becauseit's such a code to them.
It's like these are the rules,this is how it works, and we
really tried to break them.
You know, not very many peopledie in the movie.
It's really like one person to,and it doesn't follow the rules
of most horror movies.
It's kind of, and it's also.
(20:48):
I think one of the things aboutit is that it was I is no
accident that I became a comedydirector.
I think the movie is kind offunny.
It was a lot of.
It was to be fun and funny,which I think is really
important in a horror movie.
But anyway, be original, thatwas be my number one.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, now that's, that's fantastic.
I think my last one is kind ofalong that which would just be
one of the biggest surprisesfrom the reaction to the movie,
whether it be an immediatereaction, that after its release
, or just now, that we're, youknow, some years beyond it just
one of the biggest surprises tothe that you've had, to the
(21:30):
reaction of this film.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Well, I was a surprise that it was number one
at the box office that week.
It was.
I wasn't expecting that, Iwasn't even.
I didn't even think that was onthe, the in the cards.
I mean I'd done two othermovies and they, I think one.
It opened at three and anotherone at four.
One was two and three, I don'tknow, but that was a surprise.
But I was out of town.
(21:53):
Whenever a movie comes out orshow premieres or something, I
try to be out in nature orsomewhere like separate and
living my life and not, you know, waiting for the box office
number.
But I do remember the firsttime we previewed the movie or
the last time we previewed itand some of the trailers have
been playing and people had sortof understood what it was and
(22:16):
we showed up at this preview wasactually here in the Shokes in
Sherman Oaks, and half of thepeople in the line for the
theater were dressed like thosegirls.
They were kind of goth andwe're goth didn't even exist and
I was like, ok, I guess there'san audience for this.
That's they.
They all look like thecharacters in the movie.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Well, I think that there's definitely proven over
time there's an audience forthis.
I mean, I know I thoroughlyenjoyed it.
I know every you know so manypeople that have watched it that
really swear that this moviewas unique.
Exactly what you were trying todo.
And I mean one of the greatest90s movies of all time,
Absolutely and thank you verymuch again for making the film
and thank you for taking thetime here to come shot with us
(23:01):
for a few minutes.
Andrew, Absolutely, it was apleasure.
All right then.
Well, thanks again.
We'll talk to you soon.
We'll talk to you soon.
Hey, happy hour, friends.
In likening to DVD bonusmaterial, today we have an
episode for you.
Recently, we released the Craftwith Gin Wexler and Heather
Buckley.
Our friends go check that outon our feed for the full episode
.
But we got a special treat foryou today.
In this little episode, wespeak with Andrew Fleming, who
(00:22):
happens to be the writer anddirector of the Craft.
So check it out.
Okay, matt, we have a veryexciting guest here.
It is truly, truly my honor toget to speak today with the
director and co-writer of theCraft, andrew Fleming.
(00:43):
And I mean Andrew, you've hadsuch a diverse career.
I mean starting.
You did films before the Craft,but obviously the Craft kind of
goes to a new stratosphere of asort of you know, like, you
know viability and like seeinginto, like eyes, getting on it
in the world.
But you've also worked on arest of development Michael J
(01:05):
Fox show, younger I mean so manyepisodes of Emily in Paris and,
honestly, personally myfavorite.
That I think, just shows youryour range.
So much the Craft and DollyParton's Heartstrings on Netflix
in 2019.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Yeah, I mean, I look some surface like multiple
personality disorder.
Yeah, I do, I just did some.
I look back, I wasn't the planI.
I just, if you've done one kindof thing, I kind of want to do
something else.
Like the first movie I did wasa horror movie and then the
second one was a comedy and thenthe third one was the Craft,
(01:40):
which is a horror movie to acertain degree and then after
that I only made comedy.
So it was really very.
I remember one one of my agentsonce is no longer my agent
saying boy, andy, you reallydon't make it easy.
Nobody ever say well, that'swhat Andy does.
It was always.
I was always evading any kindof pigeonholing.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, absolutely, how did it is so?
I mean, we obviously you'retalking very much about the
Craft on our podcast and itseems like, from everything I've
learned, urban legend sort ofsurrounds this film, you know,
like the stories in the processof the witchcraft and everything
that was happening, and kind ofmirroring the story in some
elements, or not.
I mean, do you remember any ofthe craziness and were you aware
(02:24):
of it at the time you weremaking the film?
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Oh yeah, I mean I don't know specifically what
you're talking about, but it wasreally while we were shooting
it that some strange thingshappened.
But I know they've oftenreported.
But it was a complicatedprocess getting the movie made.
I was sent it originally justto do a rewrite and I said if
(02:48):
you're interested in directingit, you can direct it.
But I didn't want to do anotherhorror movie so I said I would
just do the rewrite on it and itdid the work.
And in the process of rewritingI did a lot of research about
paganism and witchcraft and youknow all of that, and met a lot
(03:09):
of witches and pagans and wentto ceremonies and things and it
was suddenly like what I wasseeing, the reality of Wicca was
so much more interesting thanwhatever, whatever I'd ever seen
in a movie.
So I thought there was anopportunity to do something that
felt you know real on somelevel, that you could buy it,
(03:31):
because my favorite horrormovies are things like
Rosemary's Baby, oh yes, kind ofa basis of folklore and reality
.
There's a baseline of realityand then you sort of gradually
get taken into this, you knowmagical nightmare, and so, yeah,
that was, that was sort of theidea behind it.
(03:52):
But at a certain point I was sointo it that I said I wanted to
direct it.
It was right when they said,well, we're going to start going
out to directors.
So they said, well, maybe Iwant to direct it.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
So you talk yourself into it over the process.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
I did, yeah, wow, and I was going to on that.
I wanted to ask I guess it'sagain is this the lore of it and
the reality of like the in theend, with the, with the, the
bugs and the maggots and thesnakes and everything the
practicals of that, and like thehouse being sealed and roaches
(04:29):
being bred not being able toreproduce?
Is this, is this right?
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yes, there were.
There was a bunch of roachesbut they were sterile so that
they wouldn't if they got awaythey wouldn't reproduce and
infest the stage.
The most of the house was on astage Right but there was a real
house that matched a practicalhouse.
(04:58):
That matched the front hallwayand the living room, I believe,
was the location, whereas thestairs and her bedroom upstairs
were the set.
But there was some overlap.
But you know, we had all thosecritters in both locations.
(05:19):
The the one real mishap was wehad the snakes outside of the
stairs and the annual regular,Boon Narr, who's like a gonzo
guy, a great guy.
He wanted to have a recordamount of snakes, so he brought
10,000 snakes, a lot of them,anyone.
So he had them in buckets.
(05:40):
He had these giant buckets ofsnakes, like oil barrel sized
buckets, and I just look, youtake the lid off and say, yeah,
there's like a thousand snakesin there.
But it was very strange, but itwas a cold night and so when we
put them on the ground he says,by the way, when snakes get
cold they just freeze up, theyjust stay still to conserve
(06:01):
energy.
And I said, ok, great, so weput all these snakes everywhere
and they just look like rubbersnakes.
So we ended up having to shootthat.
But then we shot snakes againstthe green screen that we're
moving.
We matted them on top of thereal snakes.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Oh, that's hilarious.
So like, in the end it probablywas more work to have the real
snakes they would have just beento rubber.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
But we've got the record.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
Well, that reminds years ago.
Matt and I were making a shortfilm that I was directing, and
it was just a little thing wehad butterflies, oh my God that
featured in it and it was in themiddle of the night.
In this awesome location in NewYork called Fort Tottenham.
We're like in this old, liketunnel, like this concrete, like
you know, where they used tostore cannonballs and stuff in
the Civil War, and it's freezingcold and we've got all these
(06:51):
damn butterflies.
And they do the same thing whenit's cold.
They don't move.
So we got like a heater inthere and you're like trying to
warm up and then quick, quickget the shot.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
I'm literally blowing on these butterflies to give
them some hot air.
That would wake them up.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I remember now there was a question of should we use
real butterflies in the scenewhere the girls are in the
forest and the butterflies swarmaround them and and the animal
ring.
I said it's just impossible,they're impossible, you can't,
can't work with butterflies.
So we're making a movie at Sonyand they had to start at this
visual effects company, sonyImageworks and they.
We talked to them and they saidthey were interested in writing
(07:26):
proprietary software to mapbutterflies, movement and, you
know, to create software,because none of it existed and
that was really the beginning ofdigital effects.
So they wrote softwarespecifically for those
butterflies of the movie.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Oh, that's a great scene.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, it's so beautiful, you have so many like
forward thinking kind ofeffects.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
I mean.
I think even the end, like thesnakes and everything I mean it
goes nuts at the end where youknow things are changing and
she's becoming snakes and allthat I mean when you're filming
that her mouth.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
And a lot of that was digital effects right.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, yes, at the end when she's when Farooza kind of
turns into Maduza and that'sher.
That that was all digital, yes,and in that sequence we didn't
have any real bugs or snakeswith.
Everything was digitized and itwas.
It was not a very big budgetmovie, so the effects that are
(08:22):
throughout it my, my theory wasit should really be something
you haven't seen before, becauseif it's sort of just you know,
if we're spending money puttingclouds outside a window or
something like that, then it's apoint to it.
It should really be.
Everything should be magical.
And the.
We really didn't have enoughmoney to do the ending of the
(08:42):
movie properly.
So we kind of did everythingright except the ending.
We kind of gave it shortshrifts.
It was a fight between Sarahand Nancy, but it was kind of
quicker and not as messy and mytheory was like let's get a good
preview.
And then the.
The series was very reluctantthe whole time we were making
(09:02):
the movie so and they reallysaid you can only have this much
money and we were reallystruggling against the budget.
But when we had a preview, wehad the first preview.
It was Off the charts.
The only thing is people were alittle bit disappointed by the
ending, and the studio had thisreally brilliant idea Like why
don't we spend some more moneyon the ending when we shot that
(09:23):
scene where her hair turns intosnakes and that that little part
of the fight we added?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Oh yeah, I think what is it?
George Lucas says like you knowit's, you know not, filmmaking
is not like it's not making thebest film, it's making the best
film under the circumstances.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, and that feeling I know.
It's no matter how big yourbudget is or how little it is,
it's the same thing.
You're doing the most with the,the money in the time that you
have, and that's really all youcan do.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, of course I mean it doesn't tell me to your
credit.
This is like when I think,watch, watching this, I'm like
God.
This takes me right back to,you know, high school in the 90s
.
I mean, it is just, it feelslike quintessential, and that's
not that's not a fact.
You know what I mean?
That's not a fact.
That's that's texture and tone,tone and just it.
(10:14):
In my opinion you really nailedit like you really feel that
time and place in that film somuch.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
It was a.
It was weird because the I whenI got the script it was about
four girls in witchcraft, but alot of the storylines were
different.
I Added the bird scar thing,for Bonnie Was a character, was
a girl in college who apparentlyhad Stars all over her body but
(10:44):
she wore a lot of clothing soyou never saw them and it was
more disturbing to not see them.
And the the, the racist thingwith the racial character,
wasn't black in the originalscript and I I said there has to
be somebody who's not a whiteperson in the four and was some
mirror, something that happenedin my high school.
(11:06):
That is not that, but it was.
It was a form of kind of youknow or I'm a bullying, and so I
personalized, I brought in alot of Things that had happened
to me because my, my experiencein high school was not John
Hughes, it was not, you knowright, you know, flirting, it
was really it was.
It was a very academic schooland it was an all-boys school
(11:27):
and it was religious school.
It was very intense and a lotof people Buckled under the
stress of it and it was.
It was like dark, it was veryGothic and I thought like I want
to see that.
I've never seen high school.
You know scary high school, sowe were just yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So we were just in Frightfest in London and, yeah,
and I was mentioned to somebodyI can't remember where we were
having a pint somewhere andwe're talking about the craft,
and I was like, hey, we just didthis podcast, you know, on the
craft and the.
The response was like immediate, they're like, oh my god, the
hair in the shower.
They're just like, and that, Ithink, is probably one of the
most lasting, because it is man,it's pretty gruesome like, it's
(12:09):
very very.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yeah, the Christine Taylor moment with in the.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah, the scars on the scar in the blood, like with
her hair.
It's like, ooh, it's just sotangible.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I think that that's really funny and laugh about it
and and I will say when we, whenwe shot that I was, it's like
evil, like laughs and going on.
People like I thought I was ahorrible person, but it was, you
know.
Yeah, I guess I'm a horribleTrying to stay in the shower.
(12:41):
So I love her.
She's great.
I've worked with her a coupleof times since then.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So let me ask, do you ever go back and like watch
your earlier work, at this point, like having gone through such
a storied and varied career,like is this something that just
lives in memory for you, or doyou?
Is this continually come up?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I haven't seen it in a long time.
But it's, it's the movie thatcomes back into my life
continuously.
I, you know people talk to youabout things you've done, but
it's like I don't think a daygoes by where somebody doesn't
say something to be, or send mea message or DM me or comment on
something constantly.
(13:20):
So it's like it's alive.
It just never goes away in mybrain.
But I don't, I don't know, I, Ithink I remember at the end of
it thinking the script was, it'sskip was pretty good, but it
was, it was flawed, and thatonce we saw the movie cut
together we had to kind ofrearrange things and re-shoot
(13:43):
and restructure it a little bit.
But I wish the script had beensharper to begin with.
But it ended up being okay.
But I, I remember thinking itwas pretty well directed.
I don't know I, it's I.
When I watched something back,I just think like, oh, I would
have done that differently.
Ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew,
ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew, ew.
I think that's probably mostdirectors.
(14:04):
Yeah, we're going back.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
One.
This was your third right.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
The third movie I did .
But the thing is I startedmaking movies when I was like a
little kid.
I played a bunch of high schooland then I went to film school
where I made somewhere about 30short films, right.
So I was very busy.
Yeah, it was a.
It was a.
I was very type A when I wasvery, very young.
(14:36):
I'm a little bit more relaxednow.
I was, to be honest, things goand take it easy and let to have
fun.
But it was a.
It was an intense experience.
It was also very intensebecause it was really half day,
half night, the whole thing.
So that meant that we wereconstantly going back and forth.
(14:56):
We would start on days onMonday and we'd end up shooting
all Friday night and Saturdaymorning.
So it was, everybody was jetlagged constantly, like every
single week was that schedule,except the few weeks were on the
stage.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Yeah, those are, those are the most brutal weeks.
So you start like at 4 am andthen you end up with an
overnight Friday night, theFriday day, it like that's a,
that's a, that's rough, roughfor everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Our earliest call I ever had was on the craft I
think it was 2 am because wewanted to be shooting at LAX at
dawn to do this shot of thetheme building and her getting
out of getting into a car, andwe had to be there before the
ready to shoot, before the suncame up.
It was brutal, brutal, brutal,wow.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
How did the cast come about on this Cause it was
quite, I think.
From what I read, it seems likeit was quite a process to like
get this up and going.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
It was.
It was actually the mostdifficult part of the whole
thing was casting it, because Iwent in and as soon as I was
directing it I said like I justdon't want, you know, just every
celebrity girl that's on TV tobe in this movie.
And you know, at the time therewasn't a whole generation of
young actors that was reallyjust like Winona Ryder, right,
(16:13):
and we knew that she was notinterested and she was, she was
too big of a star and she justwasn't interested.
So it was we really had to gofind people and the studio kept
suggesting like celebrity that'son this sitcom and I was like
you know, I'm not emotionallyinvested in that person and I
would bring in you know indieactor who'd only done one thing
(16:36):
and there was just a lot offriction about it.
And it went on for eight ornine months, the casting part,
and we made test deals with, Ithink, 85 young women, wow, and
they came into audition and thenwe would go to a, we would go
to an office or somewhere andput them on tape properly and we
(16:57):
did that.
I think it was 85 people andeverybody.
That's that generation I sawthey came in and I don't like
listing them, but like peoplewho went on to win Oscars, sure,
and I could get them approvedand it was a.
It was a process, but early onin the process I saw I'd seen
(17:19):
Caruza in gas food lodging andthen I met with her and she was
practicing and Pagan and she wasjust so I got this as the
person.
And actually before that RachelTrue came in and she was just
so funny and she was.
She'd such a great look andshe's very, very smart and I she
(17:40):
was the first one cast and thenfor is a and then the other two
parts were very elusive.
Originally Robin Tiny wasplaying the part that Ned
Campbell plays and then we askedher if she would be interested
in the lead and she didn'treally want to do it.
I kind of had to twist her armto be the lead of the movie and
she eventually said yes.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
That's amazing.
I mean, that is quite theprocess.
And yeah, you did indeed seeeveryone of the generation
that's, and that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
So, andrew, I want to ask, like last question here,
is we really appreciate youtaking the time?
Speaker 3 (18:15):
I last and half.
Last and half.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
OK, I was going to say, like you know, over having
done so many different thingsand having such a journey here,
what have you learned?
You know what I mean, Becausewe're like you know, we're early
on our filmmaking career here.
We have one feature film out,we're moving on, so to the next
one.
What have you learned, kind ofover time, that you know if
you'd known when you wereyounger, you know would have
been useful for you.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Well it's, you know, it's all changed so much.
So much because I won't evensay how long I've been doing
this, but I think the thing, thething that has been my guiding
principle from the beginning andI didn't really understand it
was that for the most part, Ifelt like pursuing projects
(19:00):
where I where you say I haven'tseen that before, or or or or or
haven't seen a version of thatin a long time, or I haven't
seen the best version of that,like you know, at the time that
the craft was coming about,there were no teen horror movies
.
There had been, years before,you know, slasher movies, but
(19:21):
that had kind of run its courseand horror movies had kind of
become about pretty Cougar andthey were, they were, they were
very much one thing, and thereweren't movies about teenage
girls.
I think there had only been,maybe Clueless I think this came
(19:42):
out while we were prepping butthere wasn't a genre of, of of
teenage movies and and so I felt, you know, and this was kind of
crass, but I felt like therewas a need in the marketplace,
like I feel like nobody,nobody's making that movie, do
that, pursue that.
And it's harder because peoplesay, well, that's not what's
popular now, but it did fulfilla deed and it was.
(20:05):
You know, it was a popularmovie out of nowhere, and so I
feel like everything that I'vedone, I feel like it's really
important to try to be original,to do something that you really
haven't seen before.
People say, well, I need tocheck that out because it's it's
different, and then at least,at the very least, then you've
been original.
(20:25):
Horror movies are hard becauseit's such a code to them.
It's like these are the rules,this is how it works, and we
really tried to break them.
You know, not very many peopledie in the movie.
It's really like one person to,and it doesn't follow the rules
of most horror movies.
It's kind of, and it's also.
(20:48):
I think one of the things aboutit is that it was I is no
accident that I became a comedydirector.
I think the movie is kind offunny.
It was a lot of.
It was to be fun and funny,which I think is really
important in a horror movie.
But anyway, be original, thatwas be my number one.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Yeah, now that's, that's fantastic.
I think my last one is kind ofalong that which would just be
one of the biggest surprisesfrom the reaction to the movie,
whether it be an immediatereaction, that after its release
, or just now, that we're, youknow, some years beyond it just
one of the biggest surprises tothe that you've had, to the
(21:30):
reaction of this film.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Well, I was a surprise that it was number one
at the box office that week.
It was.
I wasn't expecting that, Iwasn't even.
I didn't even think that was onthe, the in the cards.
I mean I'd done two othermovies and they, I think one.
It opened at three and anotherone at four.
One was two and three, I don'tknow, but that was a surprise.
But I was out of town.
(21:53):
Whenever a movie comes out orshow premieres or something, I
try to be out in nature orsomewhere like separate and
living my life and not, you know, waiting for the box office
number.
But I do remember the firsttime we previewed the movie or
the last time we previewed itand some of the trailers have
been playing and people had sortof understood what it was and
(22:16):
we showed up at this preview wasactually here in the Shokes in
Sherman Oaks, and half of thepeople in the line for the
theater were dressed like thosegirls.
They were kind of goth andwe're goth didn't even exist and
I was like, ok, I guess there'san audience for this.
That's they.
They all look like thecharacters in the movie.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Well, I think that there's definitely proven over
time there's an audience forthis.
I mean, I know I thoroughlyenjoyed it.
I know every you know so manypeople that have watched it that
really swear that this moviewas unique.
Exactly what you were trying todo.
And I mean one of the greatest90s movies of all time,
Absolutely and thank you verymuch again for making the film
and thank you for taking thetime here to come shot with us
(23:01):
for a few minutes.
Andrew, Absolutely, it was apleasure.
All right then.
Well, thanks again.
We'll talk to you soon.
We'll talk to you soon.
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