"The Muppet Christmas Carol" | with guest James Allerdyce - Happy Hour Flix | HHF

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Despite how it looks, michael Cain is actually the
only one without a stick up hisass.
It's the Muppet Christmas Carol, the Year 1992, we've got

(00:32):
Reservoir Dogs, unforgivenAladdin, son of a Woman, a Few
Good Men, bram Stoker's Dracula,last of the Mohicans, batman
Returns, home Alone 2, one of myfavorites Army of Darkness,
wayne's World, malcolm X.
The list goes on, but of courseour movie today, the Muppet
Christmas Carol.
Also out that year were TVmovies.

(00:54):
They were huge back in theearly 90s.
We had Two Grandmothers' Housewe Go with Ashley and Mary Kate.
Olson Christmas in Connecticut,directed by Arnold
Schwarzenegger and ChrisChristofferson in that one, and
Tony Curtis.
So be sure to check that oneout.
But this was December 11th, itwas 6th in the box office.

(01:16):
It got crushed.
A few good men Home Alone 2,bodyguard Aladdin, distinguished
Gentlemen, all above.
Anyway, that's enough of that,let's get into it.
But first of all, welcome in towith me today in studio Steven.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Pierce hey, what's up Matt?
Oh man, I love this movie.
I watched this fucker twice Inpreparation for this in 24 hours
.
And of course, we're ending theyear with a very special guest.
We just have him back, ourfriend Mr James Allardice, one
more time producer and goodbuddy extraordinaire.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Is it a bad sign that I'm the guest on the show?
Does that mean the show's notdoing well?

Speaker 3 (01:55):
No, that means you did so well.
You have to come.
We've brought you right backimmediately.
Yeah, you got that right.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Kate McKinnon.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I'm not comfortable, you know, doing a monologue.
That's not a character.
So oh well, in that case, doyou want to?
It's an SNL, kate McKinnon.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, yeah of course,
yeah, in that case let's get youright away with your favorite
Fawzi beer Dude.
I was thinking of all theMuppets this movie is like.
It's like all the B levelMuppets, like Kermit is like in
it.
Miss Piggy has like two orthree lines like she's barely in
this movie.
Fawzi's not even in it at all.

(02:32):
No, I mean nowhere.
Oh, fawzi is, yeah, he's MrFezziwig.
But I mean, come on, he's Fawzithe bear Rubber chicken plant.
Yeah, he's like the co-star ofall the big Buppet movies.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, but you do have one that has one of the best
roles, which is Gonzo the Great.

Speaker 3 (02:50):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
And Kermit.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Yeah, well, I mean Kermit, yes, but okay, gonzo,
totally unexpected, and I thinkthis was like growing up, one of
my favorite Muppet movies.
I think this was one of myfavorite Christmas movies Fuck
it.
This might be one of myfavorite movies like Top 10.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Oh yeah, yeah, I think so.
It's easy Top 10, I mean itmight be Top 5.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
This movie's awesome, like how it's not on, you know,
afi's Top 100.
I don't know, it's not.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no it'sno respect for the Muppets.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Oh man, well, we have to cheers to the Muppets with
our holiday cocktail and theaforementioned Fawzi the bear.
James, not going to make you doit in a Fawzi or Kermit voice,
but what do we got going ontoday?

Speaker 2 (03:33):
Well, we got to.
You know, I don't have therecipe in front of me.

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Oh, you know, okay, tell me this one is a special
like this is one that youbrought.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Matt, yes, yeah, I figured for the end of the year.
I wanted to bring something youknow close to home.
I wanted to do my dad's recipe,but that literally takes like
three days.
And eggnog, yeah, eggnog.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
But you know, and I actually do have the recipe,
well, you do, I haven't starteddrinking it.
So what have we got?
What are we got?
It's the Fawzi wegnog and youknow it's made with two parts
misguided crooked vodka, whichyou know we love, our folks over
at misguided spirits.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yes, thank you guys.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
So you put two parts of that in there.
You put one part coffee liqueurand two parts Ronnie Brooke
eggnog, which is, you know,that's the part that you were
pretty excited about.
Oh, I love Ronnie Brooke.
They make the best eggnog Shakeand import over ice.
So vodka, coffee liqueur andeggnog.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
And this has a little nutmeg on top.
I see that's correct, yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well, here we go.

Speaker 2 (04:27):
Cheers to you all Merry Christmas.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Happy holidays to everyone.
If you've not watched them upat Christmas Carol yet, go turn
that on right now.
Pull up your favorite eggnog,ronnie Brooke, we know is yours,
matt.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yes, exactly.
But whatever yours is, makejust this.
This is how you make it.
It is one of the best.
It's an easy one to go.
If you're interested, slideinto my DMs and hit me up about
the my dad's recipe, becausethat is that and you were
inviting people to slide intoyour DMs to get your eggnog.
Yeah, Can we All right Movingon?

Speaker 3 (05:00):
We do the show not edited, so yeah, I mean, I just
am saying you can't just throw,you can't just.
I mean I guess Matt Mundy canwheel that out there.
So just DM at your own risk.
Yeah exactly.

Speaker 1 (05:10):
Well, you know it's.
It's a nice being known, Allright, so this is the speaking
of being known?

Speaker 2 (05:16):
real quick guys.
It's the end of the year.
This has been a fun show to bea part of and we played in 15
countries.
We had listeners in 15countries and our top three
episodes.
Can you guess them?
Top three episodes.

Speaker 3 (05:30):
I'm going to guess it's a mad, mad, mad mad world.
That's number three, threeWilly three Willy.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
That's number one.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
That's the most listened to night of the creeps.

Speaker 2 (05:40):
No.
I wish it was the creeps is agreat episode, but it's actually
free willies.
The most listened to episodeseven with Matt Walter.

Speaker 3 (05:47):
Interesting, okay, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Must be just a big fan base there.
And it's a mad, mad mad worldwith Dana Snyder from aqua teen
hunger for us to be fair, it's amad, mad, mad mad mad world.
There's five five, fiveInteresting.
The last year the stats onlygot three.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
Really, really, yeah, all right, interesting, look at
that Left at Tom or AIproducers.

Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, but yeah, congrats guys and cheers to next
year.

Speaker 3 (06:16):
Cheers to next year.
So next year.
I mean, this movie is a bangerfrom the fucking start.
The model it pulls out over onthe top, over the rooftops, oh
yeah, looks awesome.
It just feels like Frank Ozmagic.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
Yep, it really does.
Yeah, it feels great and cominginto the world because
obviously it's a, you're seeinga set, but like you feel
immersed by the time you getdown into the city streets and
you know and one of my favoritethings is in it's super thematic
is they start talking aboutfood and this entire movie has

(06:57):
more food references in it thanyou know.
Celine Dion has high D's likethis.

Speaker 3 (07:04):
Everything they start and I love it, rizzo starts by
I mean, look, you get the vanhot, even the veggies like him.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
You know what I mean.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Like the vegetables, like him, and then I mean
everything.
And then Rizzo is.
I love that Rizzo and Gonzo areselling apples in the beginning
.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah, rizzo, perpetually eats apples through
the whole movie and the and, ofcourse, jelly beans and jelly
beans, jelly beans, jelly beans.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
I love that you kick it off with the magic, though
because that is what this movieis.
There's so much magic to it.
And, yeah, flying in over youknow all the flying over the
town always stuck with me as akid and I was watching it this
time and thinking, you know, Ithink part of that is because
it's real, that that's a realpractical both model and set you
know that they're using and Ithink there's always something
to that, at least for me.

(07:47):
You know, it's just never thesame.
When it's a, you know, animated, generated thing, it's like
when it's a real model, you canyou feel like you're actually
there.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Yeah, the brain knows like, yeah, I mean, I want to
see, I mean how they did thatopening shot.
It is a long pull and it's overa model.
It looks like, yes, yeah, avery long pull.
And then obviously there's arope at the end where they bring
in the, the, the, the rooftopin the foreground with the
camera movement.
They kind of like masking,cutting to a new scene, but
again, like very good old cameratrickery that just holds up.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, and I mean one of my favorite little moments,
of course, is everybody got arole Except for Rizzo.
It's one of my favorite credits, you know, moment Rizzo as
himself, yeah.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, that's a bold.
I mean this is the introductionof Rizzo the rat, isn't it?
I don't know.
I think this is theintroduction of Rizzo.
Oh, I didn't interest, if I'mnot wrong.
Okay, maybe you see, maybe hisMuppet Treasure Island.
Is he in Rizzo and Muppet?

Speaker 1 (08:44):
Treasure Island, muppet, treasure Island.
Yeah, with Tim Curry.

Speaker 3 (08:48):
Yes, with Tim Curry, which is my, I think, second
favorite.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
Muppet movie, that one's good.
I mean, I can't get away fromMuppets.
Take Manhattan.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
I mean, yeah, there's so many good ones.
I mean, but the this?
I think this is theintroduction of Rizzo the rat,
if I remember correctly.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Maybe I'm wrong, but we'll come back to that one.

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Online it says that he did.
You know this may be the firstyou know big role of his.
He was first seen in an episodeof the Muppet show with
Christopher Reeve oh, okay, andRizzo was one of the rats trying
to mug him or something.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Oh, got it.
Maybe this is like his firstmajor one, but I remembered
Rizzo.
It was like a big and he's likeso awesome in this movie.
I mean he's, I mean bringingthe comedy left and right, I
mean.

Speaker 1 (09:33):
God, how Rizzo and Gonzo weren't like forever
linked after this because theywere perfect, pitch perfect.
I loved, and you know, and it'spretty well known now that
Gonzo was not the first idea tohave, you know that they weren't
even going to have A narrator,yeah, but it was Jeweled.

(09:53):
One of the writers obviouslyCharles Dickens was the other
one Right Suggested it becausethey he loved the prose so much.

Speaker 3 (10:01):
Sure, and then even the way the movie, the first
line of the book, which iswhat's so awesome about these,
these, these kind of classic.
You know the Muppets turn theseclassic things in.
It reminds me of Looney Tuneswith like orchestra music, but
you know, it's like the Marleyswere dead to begin with.
What a killer opening line.
It's so good.
It harkens back to that timewhen writers were like I mean

(10:23):
the first words on the page.
You know, call me Ishmael, youknow what I mean Like they're
like this.
The hook is so immediate and sostrong and so intriguing and
they just it's fun how they evenhandle it here, but they pay
homage to it.

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Yeah, yeah.
And they, I mean what was?
And it's not like he was a onehit wonder.
I mean this guy wrote so manylike ones that right off the top
just grabbed you in.
You know, it was the best oftimes, it was the worst of times
Absolutely, and like it's.
And then we think today it'sinteresting how we kind of harp
on well, we got to get theirattention, you got to get their

(10:56):
attention.
Now and I'm like well, yeah,that's always been the case,
it's always been there.

Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, you know, and like when you start that, well,
like I'm in, I mean just theefficiency of that writing.
I mean we're talking aboutDickens now, but I mean still
they honored it very well.
There's been, I mean I thinkit's.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I think it's right to talk about that because there's
been, like what?
150 plus movie and televisionmovie versions of this.

Speaker 3 (11:17):
Right, every single one.
And what are your top?
Okay, christmas story, not aChristmas story.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Oh my God, what the hell is this called Christmas
Carol?
Christmas Carol.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
What are your favorite versions of the
Christmas Carol?
My top oh interesting, yeah,this one and honestly the next
one for me I've been bangingthis drum for a year now is the
new Apple TV movie Spirited Like.
I'm a big, big fan of it.
I think that they just hit itout of the park, and I think it
is.
It's my second favorite versionof this, and then Scrooge is
probably third.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Scrooge does it for me.
That's your favorite one.
Yeah, scrooge, scrooge is myfavorite.
I mean, scrooge is my favoriteif I'm in that mood, but if I
just want to like feel good thewhole time, I mean this is one
of the sweetest movies withoutbeing saccharine.
Yeah, of course.
And then of course, you know,you have the Disney one, which I

(12:09):
think gets a little saccharine.
I do love it.
And then of course there's theIs that the animated one?
Yeah, and then there's I mean,there's so many, I could go on,
but I do love I think it's andJames helped me on this one.
It's like I think from the 20s,alan something plays Scrooge.
I can't think of it off the topof my head, but you know I'm

(12:30):
not prepared there's.

Speaker 2 (12:32):
There's some good ones there's a hundred.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
There's over 150 of these, so but I think and
Spirited as far as like the andyou introduced me to that I
finally, you know you banged thedrum so hard my head came.
I know I made you watch it thisyear, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
I've been banging the drum in front of James forever
and he's not going to watch itagain.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
He's not going to do it last year and I guarantee
he's not going to watch it thisyear.

Speaker 3 (12:50):
This is like that time when he told me like, so,
like, emphatically he's like yougot to go see the show at the
public.
It's really good, I saw it.
It's Hamilton, you go see it.

Speaker 1 (13:00):
And I never went about someone who never was
president.

Speaker 3 (13:02):
I was like yeah, right, I'll definitely go.
I'll definitely go see thisweird historic musical and then
obviously you know how amazingthat is.
I feel the same way aboutSpirited and he's giving me the
slow play.
But I'm telling you you'regoing to be, you're going to
feel late to the party man.

Speaker 1 (13:14):
You know.
But that also, it does bring upthe reminder here for me that
almost all of these and thisincludes this one which is
arguably the most faithful tothe book, and even the people at
the museum in London with theoriginal, with one of the
original printings of aChristmas Carol, say this is the

(13:36):
most faithful version and yetit does something that almost
every single one of them do.
That's not faithful and I getit, but it didn't really
register with me untilrewatching it.
This time You'll be visited bythree spirits, right, right.
And he wakes up and he's likewhat day is it?

(13:56):
I did, don't know, yeah.
And then, of course, the ghostof Christmas present is somehow
showing him the future.

Speaker 3 (14:03):
Yeah, so I've always noticed that about the ghost of
Christmas present.
He always shows the neck, heshows things that are about to
happen and present is such likea but fluid Go ahead, go ahead.
No, a fluid time, like it is,like it seems, within like 24
hours.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
Well, and I was going to say, though, because in the
book it's not visited at eachhour, it's each night.
So it is the 27th, it's 25th,26th and 27th ostensibly, when
he's visited by the ghost ofChristmas future.
So he's technically missedChristmas.
And then when he wakes up andsays what day is it?

(14:39):
But he thinks it's the 27th ormaybe the 28th.
So when he's told it's the 25th, it's the gift that they gave
back, because he quote, you know, passed or whatever, right,
right, he gets the time back, hegot, he got a second chance, so
he was able to go back and thatwas their gift, the ghost's
gift to him after psychological.

Speaker 2 (15:00):
He goes back in time.
Interesting, you know, I act.
That's not what I noticed, butI did notice what I think is an
inconsistency in the timing ofthis movie.
They say, ok, yeah, they'regoing to be visited.
He's going to be visited uponevery hour, right, right.
And the first one starts atwhen the when the bell tolls.

Speaker 3 (15:19):
I don't remember Like is it like the clock strikes 10
or something, maybe.

Speaker 1 (15:24):
Oh, no, no, no, no, super late, One or two yeah yeah
, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah, yeah yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, anyway.
Then, when the it's aftermidnight, then when the ghost of
Christmas present is likedisintegrating and, you know,
dying because he only exists inthe present, which makes sense,
he's like oh, I only exist untilthe, you know, until the end of
the end of the day, and he diesat midnight, right?

(15:50):
So I don't know, the timingdoesn't really add up.
It's a little weird.

Speaker 3 (15:56):
I mean, I guess they're taking it as like he's
at night, asleep and ghost.
So I think that themalleability of time makes sense
.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Sure, yeah, I mean, he's time traveling.
Yeah, he's time traveling.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
He flies over, you know, london in here, which we
got to talk about that for asecond, because that's one thing
I noticed this time that reallymade me laugh and it is very
funny if you go back and watchit, because what the hell is
Gonzo hooked to Because he'sflying with you?
If you watch the rope, it lookslike he's like hooked to his
crotch, like unsighted, as likerobe, and then it goes to the
other side and it's on the otherside of the robe and it's like

(16:28):
what the hell is he cooked tohook to?

Speaker 1 (16:30):
No, you know I had.
I didn't notice that.

Speaker 3 (16:32):
You got to go.
I watch it out.
This whole time I was chucklingto myself watching it.
I was like, what does he?
He's hooked onto his waistbandor something.
But it's like, but you could.
Then he cut and you see him inthe front and now the rope goes
to the back.
It's very funny.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
So this flying scene again.
I mean I remember watching themaking of this back and we were
kids and that was a big dealthen.
You know, of course I think itwas blue screen at that point.
You know, it was the technology, it was it was the beginning of
green screen.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
It was literally one of the first green screens and
they were like look what we cando.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
It's him.
He's flying over them.
You know, it was amazing.
I mean it still looks greatbecause it's a fantasy piece and
the characters look great.
The ghost of Christmas when westart, we start with past.
Yes, the little angel, I meanall three of them are so
distinct.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Ghost of Christmas past has a way of being creepy,
but also not scary.
Beautiful, beautiful.

Speaker 1 (17:21):
And initially that was.
They composited it to try,obviously, but they tried to do
it in oil.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Get the flow, so it's in water.
Yeah, she was underwater, sothey're under oil.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
So they're puppeteering her underwater.
Wow, that's so that.
So that's so, it's she.
I think she's a marionette, andso she's being marionetted, so
they marionetted a thing throughwater.

Speaker 3 (17:44):
That is, how would that?

Speaker 1 (17:45):
work, and then that's what gives her the you know,
the theory it's amazing, that'sgorgeous.

Speaker 3 (17:50):
Yeah, it really is incredible.
Like I'm guessing that is greenscreen that they're compositing
into a shot, Right.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Exactly.
Yeah, that's what Brian said,which we haven't even mentioned,
oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:00):
Yeah, this is the RIP Jim Henson movie.
This is the first one dedicatedto him is right at the
beginning.
This is the one after he diedthat was made after he died, can
you imagine, I mean.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
And so Brian, his son , had never directed a movie
before Right, which Michael Caindid not know when he accepted
the role.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
That's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
You know, I mean this guy was super, I mean he still
is huge, I mean the guys areentire lives, but in 92,
obviously and I think he'dalready won an Oscar, I mean he
was just massive and for somereason our listeners didn't know
.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Probably everyone does.
But you know, the Jim Hensonpuppet company that you know
started all these things andstarted the Muppets and every
other amazing puppet you canimagine.
Yeah, the 70s through today,you know, was started by Jim
Henson, led by Jim Henson andthen taken over by his son,
brian.
Yeah, this was.

(18:55):
You know Jim had died and thiswas the first, the first movie
that Brian was leading with.

Speaker 1 (19:01):
What an amazing like to think of the and I don't know
, none of us know, brian but toknow that this was the first
outing after you know, my dadpassed and I crushed it.
Yeah, of course, and it's aninstant and huge.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
I mean it's obviously a labor of love and homage, but
I mean they also you can'tdiscount the fact too much also
that you had Frank Oz.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
He's been a consistent creative force.
Sam Eagle animal Not to mentionhe's during this time also in
the 90s, he's just come off abunch of films as a director,
like live action and you know,and you know puppets, I mean, I
mean Muppets are live action.
I mean they're just puppets,live action, they're just kind
of their own thing.
Yeah, they're like.
You know, it's like he's such acreative force and so smart,

(19:53):
like even the way this remindsme, like when he does a little
shop of horrors, like the setsare like smaller on top and kind
of angled, so it makeseverything feel more
claustrophobic.
This is the same way, but it'slike everything's rolling, like
the streets are, like you know,curved in, the backdrops are
angled.

Speaker 1 (20:09):
And if you look at all the like the door frames,
nothing is linear or parallel.
And of course you know and youguys wouldn't bring this up
because you're too cool likethat and you're very humble but
for our listeners, these guys doknow Frank Oz and they were
able to spend some really goodtime talking to him and it's a
fascinating guy.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
Yeah, I mean we've worked with him.
We don't hang out with him.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
I'm not saying you're having a pretty village, Just
you know, yeah, but he's a big,I'm a big big.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Frank Oz.
We're huge fans and you guysgot to you know, work with him,
which is awesome.

Speaker 3 (20:43):
Yeah, I mean, obviously his work is incredible
.
This has been throughout timeLike it's definitely something
he's like somebody look at andyou're like how the hell are you
so good at this?
And not in.
He's also the thing that I wasmost impressed about with him is
he's at all like.
He's not in, not a like divawhatsoever.
Right, he's a very down toearth, there's kind of normal
person.

(21:03):
His mind just thinks like that.
So again, like this movie, itthat's.
It feels logical.
Like it feels everything thathappens as stupid as it is.
Even when they're doing thesedumb jokes like Rizzo the rat
jumping off of the thing off ofthe great or the the wrought
iron fence into the snow.
I mean they how many times theyplay this joke?

(21:24):
Like four times.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
Okay, yeah, and then when he, when he crawls through,
he crawls back through to gethis you can fit through there
which is straight up stolen, andI mean that in a lovely way
from the pink Panther.
So the pink Panther used to dothat all the time.
This is the sixties cartoon.
It's not the, not the PeterSellers, but but it's the
cartoon.
And that's exactly what pinkPanther did all the time would

(21:47):
lock himself out, then go aroundthe door to open it and then go
back around, yeah, so falls outthe fence and then afterwards
he, you know he crawls backthrough to get his what had or
show Jelly beans.

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Jelly beans, of course, and then Gonzo just goes
.

Speaker 2 (21:58):
he goes, you can fit through there.
And goes, yeah.
And then Gonzo just looks atthe audience no, no, no he
doesn't.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
No, no, no, no.
Gonzo looks at Rizzo.
This is what really stuck outto me this time.
I was like this is the onemoment I think could have been
sharpened a little bit, becausethat joke is so funny.
All he needs to do is like tolook at him and go and then walk
away.
But he looks at me and goesyou're such an idiot.
And I'm like talks the otherway.
And I'm like wow, that inanother watching it started that
started to stick out and I waslike that's just really an
aggressive line for Gonzo.

(22:25):
You know what I mean?
Like I don't know, just feltlike it was a little too much.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Up to this point, had only been shot out of a cannon.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
Right Well and loves chickens.
Yes, he's a foul effort.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
But and also, too, that scene.
By the way, brian talked aboutthis in an interview.
I saw where that was somethingthat didn't move the plot
forward, but he was trying tofigure out how to get them
around to the bedchamber, sure,and then that joke happened and
they were like, oh, this is toogood and it's fantastic.
It's one of the best jokes andone of the funniest little

(23:02):
moments in the movie.
And, yeah, it doesn't move theplot forward.
It's not from the story, it isspecific to like just we need
these people to be over here, sowe get them in an interesting
way.

Speaker 2 (23:14):
One of the things is sorry, god going on, that, I
mean, you know, this device ofthese storytellers, of these
narrators in this film is justso great.
And this kind of brings us backto the beginning, you know
where.
He brings up the first line inthe film and then he keeps going
.
And what's great about it isthat they're funny.

(23:35):
They're the clowns, yeah, butit's, they.
Don't dumb it down.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
No, not at all, and this to your point.
They don't dumb down anythingin this movie.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
But it's a point where the narrator wacky cra,
you know what I mean.
Like he catches on fire and hehas to throw him into a funniest
line in the whole movie, likelike the lamp, not the rat, like
the lamp, not the rat.
How many times I mean I lovethat line.
I use that line all in normallife, like just as a joke.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
And they're able to achieve that.
They're able to have thisslapstick humor, but still quote
Dickens verbatim, verbatim.

Speaker 3 (24:11):
That's one of the work really well, I mean they,
that is just the brilliance ofthe Muppets in general, like
that world, that's what they cando Well, like I think about the
the Sam Eagle scene, you know,and like it's like they make
their jokes and they go crazywith the slapstick, but between
the dramatic moments and that'swhy it works so well.
Special.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
Michael is in school.
Yeah, they're sitting on theshelf, yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:35):
I mean.
So this made.
This is what made me laugh.
I was trying to dissect thisjoke but it's been funny forever
.
But this time I started tryingto dissect it because they cut
to the school the first time andit's a dolly down the line and
it's like, yes, all the busts,the busts, and like I can't
remember who, all it is.
It's like Shakespeare, it'slike all these famous busts
Shakespeare, plato or whatever,yeah, aristotle, and it lands on

(24:56):
Gonzo sitting there with Riso,the rat next to him, and it's
just hilarious.
But I was like, oh, I see it'sgoing in sequence, because I
think it was.
It was like Aristotle, someonefrom another time, then
Shakespeare, and then I thinknext would be the next great,
would be Charles Dickens, andthey put Gonzo, I did the same
thing.

Speaker 1 (25:15):
That was the first thing I noticed.

Speaker 3 (25:17):
I was like, oh, he's Dickens and he would be a bust
and this scene is sort of a dragscene, like.
It's very, it's a, it's a.
It's what you know what you andI would call a lull.
It's a sag, it's where thestory is sagging.
But they, the way they're doing, is they're inserting these
little jokes with now, becausethey also say like and I just
caught it, this watch alsobecause they say one little line

(25:39):
of dialogue right before thescene where they're like and the
, the, the, the, oh God, what is?
It is like in the school.
As you know, he saw his lifeprogress throughout the school
as the school decayed to thestate it was in or something,
indicating that across the timehe's been there, it started
falling apart and losing fundingor whatever.
And then the bookshelf breaksand they're sitting there and

(26:00):
that's when the bus and thewhole bit with the bus happens,
while Sammy Eagles also doingthe wonderful Muppets thing you
can do where he's like you'regoing to enjoy business.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, and business.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
And then they push it and he's like and you know,
you'll succeed as soon as muchas this fine institution does,
and then the shelf falls.
You know right, he's like I'vebeen meaning to fix that shelf.
Yes, headmaster, it's justreally, really brilliant.
It is the American way.
No, sam.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
Oh, it is the British .

Speaker 3 (26:31):
The British way, it just is so again.
It's just they find their wayto just their book ending all
the dramatic, and every dramaticmoment has a little Muppet
wraparound on it, you know.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
So, speaking of dramatic moments, we got to take
a step back and go to thebrothers Marley.

Speaker 3 (26:48):
Oh, marley, marley and Marley.
This is how I was introduced tothem when I was growing up.
Really, yeah, because I didn'twatch the Muppets show.
This is what I saw.
Oh, you're right, and so what aperfect character.
I thought that's what they were.
I didn't know they had anothergimmick with the balcony.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
So, again, this is one of the Matt you talked about
how this was so true to thebook.
Here's a big change, right?
Yep, good point.
They took one character andturned it into two because in
the book, right, it's justMarley, jacob Marley.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
Yeah, well, maybe we make that argument that that's
the Jekyll and Hyde, the goodand the evil, so it's really the
same person.
Are they there, aren't theyboth?
Just?

Speaker 2 (27:30):
a shitty.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
No, no one's Robert Marley, it's Marley.
I know you were right.
I'm sorry, just being a jerk.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
That's the big change , is they changed it and it
doesn't.
I mean it's completely great, Imean there's doesn't take away
from the story at all that theymade it two characters and
that's such a smart adaptation,but then they aren't trying to
like tell a story of who theseguys are or whatever.

Speaker 3 (27:51):
They are just a stasis.
Yep, they're an excitingincident for the main character.
It just didn't work, so likeyou don't need to mess with that
.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
And they're scary, I mean yeah they are.
When he walks up to.
I will never forget that.
That's imprinted on me when he,when Michael came, walks up to
that doorbell and it changes toMarley.
Oh, yes, that's, that's in me.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
And they're also smart because they didn't try
and do two Marleys there, right.

Speaker 2 (28:16):

Speaker 3 (28:17):
Like they're editing.
They're editing themselves toknow when it's appropriate and
not obey the rules, because aless good filmmaker would say he
needs to see the faces of bothhis people, and that'd be like a
note you'd get and you'd belike, well, no, it just, it's
one knocker.
Like it needs to be one person,right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:36):
And also it's if you introduce two, that's
immediately the audience hastaken out, because we assume 90%
of the people watching know thestory or at least the basis.
Sure, yes, absolutely.
But that is also a great point.
It's one knocker, it's one faceRight, it's still Marley, and
they are.
You end up learning that it'sMarley and Marley.
But also and Brian talks aboutthis too, this is in a same

(28:57):
interview that I mentionedearlier he that it gets dark,
and this is where he talks aboutone of the darkest parts of the
movie.
You know this.
And then, of course, you knowwith every telling of it it's
the ghost of Christmas future.
But this moment coming into theMarley's is so dark.
And then, like, when you lookat the set pieces of this now
it's very simple, there's not alot of set dressing you can tell

(29:18):
it's a small studio in thisparticular room where his
bedchamber is, and like thatterrible and terrifying moment
where he hits his own, uh,bathrobe or, or, or you know,
bedrobe, where he thinks it's aghost, like that buildup is so
terrifying.
And then, yes, you get theMarley's, who are also

(29:39):
terrifying, and then they singone of the best songs.

Speaker 3 (29:41):
One of the best songs .

Speaker 1 (29:42):
It's such a fun song and I think, being an as an
adult, or just as a kid, therhythm of that is so smart.
To your point about telling agood um, um, uh, uh, telling a
story in a in a great way.
So, speaking of um, if uh,telling it in a great way, well,

(30:04):
I was trying to key upsomething, but apparently that's
not going to happen, so I, uh,I did so, but this also made me
think about, like, did they geta second chance?

Speaker 2 (30:16):
Oh, they got a second chance.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:42):
I mean just so good, it's so good, oh oh, oh, my God,
I just looked at my notes andthat's like I kind of I'm sorry.
I gotta jump back a little bit.

Speaker 2 (30:49):
Okay, jump back, jump back.
Do you have something to finishon?
No, no, no, no, we're you know,we're jumping all over, jumping
all over the place.

Speaker 3 (30:54):
It's totally fine, did you guys notice?
And so the opening scene, whichI love, like the whole thing,
it's so good, it's so so good.
But they I want to talk about acouple of things in it.
There, there, he's, there's aline in there.
Even the vegetables don't likehim, but it's Fawzi Bear's voice
, right?
I didn't catch that till thiswatch through.
If you watch, it's like it isFawzi's voice, just on a random

(31:14):
character that they have justinto the world.
But one of the most brilliantthings I think about that I
gotta go back to is I think it'sjust brilliant, brilliant
writing, because in the lyricsof the song, like the end of the
verse, is you come to thelittle mice, which the voice
work on the mice is superinteresting too, and they were
just so cute.
There's, you know, what mostpeople are tempted to do
whenever you have, like a littlecharacter like that is being

(31:35):
like meh, meh, meh, meh, meh,meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh,
meh, meh meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh, meh meh
meh, well, chipmunks.
But no, they didn't do that.
There's a family and the malecharacters had almost like real
male tone, like adult, human ormale tones, and it was just
mixed and smaller and a littlefainter, but they didn't change
the pitch.
It wasn't really a pitch thing,what's always really

(31:55):
interesting.
But then they got the writinginto one of the verses like it's
even worse for us mouses.
And then one of them goes likeplease, sir, can I have some
cheese?
Which I thought it's hilarious.
But then fast forward to theend of the next verse and the
mice writing the things andthey're like and there's no
cheeses for us mises.
And I was like, oh, you guysare geniuses how you worked the

(32:16):
Oliver reference in.
You timed it to the music andthen you called it back and made
a joke on yourself.

Speaker 1 (32:22):
I mean, just talk about brilliant comic writing,
brilliant comic writing, and ina Dickens world, yes.
It's massive, like so many greatlayers, and you don't have to
know it and the joke still works.
And this is.
You made me think about this,one of my favorite, and I'm a

(32:43):
great paraphraser.
I'm a terrible quota of peoplethat I just adore or just look
up to, but I will paraphrase.
And so to paraphrase CS Lewisabout storytelling and
especially for children,children's stories.
He said a children's story thatis only good for children is
not a good children's story.

(33:04):
To begin with, right, of course, and this is one of those
moments where it's like, yeah, akid's not gonna know that, a
kid's gonna totally just thinkit's cute and it's fun and it is
, and a joke lands and you learnabout timing and humor.
But then, as an adult, whenyou've had more experience, it
doesn't.
You still might not get it, butif you do, like the layers of

(33:26):
appreciation are there and it'sjust, oh, it's so good because
it doesn't hang on the thread ofyou having to get it, or
execution is so good.

Speaker 3 (33:34):
Yeah, you don't have to get that, it just is
inherently funny.
That's something you get Likethe play in the language.
You just get Like you don'thave to explain it.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's true.
Every idiot who goes about withChristmas.

Speaker 3 (33:47):
You know you're in great hands.
The moment you know thismovie's gonna be fucking awesome
is when Michael Cain turns atthe door and they push in on
that close up of him and he juststands there and he goes humbug
and it just, he just.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, that's at the end of the song.
The button on the front Push onhim, yes, nailed him, and they
all scatter.

Speaker 3 (34:07):
Yeah, they all scatter.
He turns and look and they allscatter, and then he stands
there and looks and he goeshumbug Amazing.
I mean just.

Speaker 2 (34:13):
Brilliant I mean truly, truly brilliant, a true
sense of the word.
Brilliant I mean because, againand now, we've reached the
point where we're going to talkabout probably the most
memorable thing about this movie, no doubt the reason everyone
remembers it and the reason it'sstill being watched and talked
about to this day, because we'vealready talked a lot about Jim

(34:35):
Henson Company and the Muppetsand how great they are, but
obviously the something thatmakes this movie exceptionally
special is Michael.

Speaker 3 (34:43):
Cain.
Michael Cain is in an Ibsenplay.
Yes, you know what I mean.
Like he really is.
He's going to what's the RoyalShakespeare Company in, like
Scotland or whatever he's likehe's going to that.
That's where it feels like.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
You talking about the Edinburgh Festival?

Speaker 3 (34:57):
Yeah, yeah, he's going to Edinburgh to step on
the stage and do King Lear.
I mean, that is the level ofperformance you got here.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
I believe he said that much.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
You know the quote is I treated it like I was doing a
performance for the RoyalShakespeare Company.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah, there you go Makes total sense.
You know, he just decided thatfrom day one.
Like that's how I'm going to dothis.

Speaker 1 (35:18):
And I think it was kind of I mean, at least the
legend goes, but I think he'sconfirmed this.
It's similar to Gene Wilder andhe's saying I will only accept
Wonka if I can do this one thingwhere he like tricks the.
Does the cane and the roller?
Yeah, because then you knowhe's dangerous and he will do
anything Right.
And Michael Cain said I willonly accept this if I can play

(35:39):
it straight.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
And he does it his way.
And he does.
You know, if you've everwatched the Michael Cain acting
for a film, oh yes, heimplements his lessons 100%
where he's.
You know you don't blink andthen don't be blinking.
If you blink, it weakensyourself.
So you know it's like I'm notgoing to blink, I'm not going to
move a muscle unless I mean tomove it.
You know.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
And if I know where the camera is, I'm going to give
you three quarters of my face,like it's such like technical
stuff.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, timothy B
Murphy, definitely, you know,took this class.

Speaker 1 (36:11):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah , yeah, and just okay.
That made me think, though, too, the Kermit in this also so
good Like this is, and it's thefree Bob Cratchit.

Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah, Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,
beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,
beep, beep, beep, beep beep thatand that specifically.

Speaker 1 (36:31):
So this is obviously the song that he and Tiny Tim
are singing and that performance, which it's Jazzy, right, and
it's it's Steven Whitmer who'splaying Kermit and would play
Kermit for a while, but I meanit's in the hands at this.
Again, this is after you know,jim has passed and he sang it

(36:57):
and this was I think I thinkBrian said this, but I also
noticed it it's he sang it likeJim Henson would sing, it kind
of like the singing it in thatjazzy, pushing the, the rhythm a
little bit and and being ableto scat so well and that
joyousness of just like the beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep,
and it just felt good and that.

(37:19):
I don't know if we want to talklike the technical stuff about
how they pulled that off.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
I love the little, the little rolling wheel and the
moving backdrop.
You mean, yeah, like again.
So I was thinking about thisand it feels like they did a
rolling wheel in front of agreen screen or a blue screen or
whatever, and then they did atracking model shot.
That's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, and it felt like they could pause them
together and it was one of thefew times because they do it in
the other, in a, I think in theMuppet movie, where you see them
full bodied Right.
But it's one of the few timesand you have the, the actors or
the puppeteers right there, likethey are right up on them,
because normally they'rereaching way out Right, so
they're out of frame, but theyare up on them and it just gives

(37:59):
it this such incredible tightcontrol.
And going back to the MichaelCain thing, every movement is so
specific and it's alsosomething I think from a broad
term we could talk about that.
What's fantastic about the JimHenson school and the Muppets
themselves is they're sospecific.
Nothing is wasted and nothingfeels not clean, like the

(38:22):
corners meet where they'resupposed to meet.
The choices are deliberate,because there's a lot of people
who do great work in puppetry,but there's something that they,
which is why a lot of people inour profession want to emulate
that, because there's aspecificity, a uniqueness and a
realness to it.

(38:42):
Oh my God, there's no tongue incheek.

Speaker 3 (38:44):
We have to talk about puppets for a second.
Sure, because puppets are likea thing, right, I mean they date
, I mean back thousands of yearsor whatever, but the Muppets, I
think, are probably the peak of, they're the standing on the
parapet of best puppetry of alltime, in my opinion,
consistently, they're sointeresting.
The characters are alsodifferent.

(39:05):
In such an diverse world andwhenever you do these things,
I've been lucky enough to workwith the Muppets on a show,
that's right, and it was very,very interesting because they
were only in one number of theshow but and it was a live
performance and they, when theycame in, the performers are all
like they had their own dressingroom and it's where they work

(39:26):
on the puppets and they have somany different versions for
different aspects.
I mean, it is truly.
This is not.
You don't build one Kermit andthen Kermit goes out and you
just fuck with a puppet and movethe camera around.
That's not how it works.
So they have like six or sevendifferent versions that all do
different things and they're alldesigned specifically for shots

(39:47):
and specifically for how theyuse them and it's so that they
come alive.
And whenever you work with themon set, everyone is looking at
the puppet.
When they're made well andthey're performed well, even
when the cameras cut and stuff,it's amazing, because I'd give
notes You're giving.
You find yourself looking andgiving notes to the puppet and

(40:09):
they usually stay in characterbecause that's the way it is.
So it's.
It's also for the actors onstage, like because they all
feel, and I remember.
One of the things I'll neverforget is whenever I did that is
, they had their little dressingroom and no one was allowed in
the dressing room except for themuppeteers.
Sure, because they don't wantyou to see six different
versions, because as soon as youdo see six different versions
of Miss Pacey, the string yeahwell, it loses the life.

(40:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, it's sort of like howan actor and a stunt person
come together to make onecharacter in an action movie or
some kind of extreme thing Likethis is what they all these
different iterations of this artpuppet, come together on set
and in front of camera to make acharacter come to life.
But only the artists want to bea part of that process and
building it, because it takes itaway even from the performer.
Because if you had to like,stand here and, yeah, talk to a

(40:53):
thing, and now you go into theroom and there are like six of
them lying on a counter.
It removes the magic and itreally is.
The muppets are.
They're truly brilliant at thatand it is unbelievable to watch
.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah, well, I shout out to it.
It reminds me when the MittWilton yes.

Speaker 3 (41:12):
I were one of our, which was made by with this is
we're referring to a commercialseries that we all made and Matt
was the puppeteer for.
And then we had one of ourartists who lives in Germany,
switzerland now, was a friend ofmine from college and she'd
spent years working at theHenson shop and building stuff
and we this is a Henson stylepuppet and the same thing.

(41:33):
We took it to a live show andyou were coming out of a trash
can, right, and you know for acompany, and that company built
this trash can and the samething.
People would come up and takephotos.
Takes, people would take photoswith me and I would have to like
stay and you stay in character,like they come up and the same
thing, like even when we'reshooting the spots you know we
shot a few like commercials withlike every the actors,
everybody like myself I knowI've known you for how long

(41:54):
Exactly After lives and yeah,and you're like buried down in a
thing and everybody walks upand talks to the character, to
the puppet, because it just isalive, it just is and it's.
It's such an incredible artform.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
And it's so like it is important to your point.
It's important to the creators,to the puppeteers and to the
people who are in it, like, inthis case, michael Cain, to not
let that down, like that is partof the magic, like I want, I
know, like you know, it's likeMichael is walking on.
So they shot this in a hugestudio in London that was my

(42:29):
wood studio, yeah, and it's notbuilt for sure.
It is.
I don't know that for sure.

Speaker 3 (42:33):
I'm not.
I think it was.
If it's in London, is mostlikely Pinewood right.
Isn't that like the big, bigone?
That's a big one.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
Yeah, it'll come to me and that.
But they didn't have.
They had to dig out the floorsand for the puppeteers and of
course.
So every single scene we'rewatching in the movie, Michael
Cain's walking on planks.
He's got like, except for,obviously you know, the studio
floor where you can see it.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, I wonder if that makes sense, because you
know they shot him up, you knowcamera angles are all at him.
So I wonder if they were ableto get inside those trenches,
and I'm sure they were.

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Oh, yeah, I will say that's one of my favorite things
about this, this film is, itfeels like to me, of all the
Muppets, it is the most finallyintegrated with human and Muppet
.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
You think?

Speaker 3 (43:17):
about the great Muppet caper, which I love.
I mean, I love all these movies, they're all awesome, but I
think about the.
That is usually like it's six,you know, seven foot Jason Segal
and then a tiny character nextto him.
Like.
And this one feels like the waythey staged it into the lens,
like if you watch that openingsequence again, it's they're all

(43:38):
.
The Muppets are in theforeground and then the people
are in the back and they sharethe same vertical space, right.
And so even when they integratewith each other, they're always
staged in a way that they feellike they belong in the same
world and they're never.
And it's.
I think it's truly one of thesuccesses of this.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, I think you're right, and it reminds me of what
was taken to the nth degreelater, not with Muppets, but
with forced perspective, withwhat Peter Jackson did for the
Hobbits Right.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Well, an elf did it too, like I mean.
I mean, people forcedperspective has been around
forever, but, yes, the peoplethat can master it at that high
level.

Speaker 1 (44:11):
When it's like at Disney World, all those, when
you walk down Main Street, allthose houses are done in forced
perspective in real life, sothat as you're walking them, as
you're walking down, theyactually feel bigger and taller
than they actually are.

Speaker 3 (44:23):
All right, yeah, of course I mean that's genius,
that's genius design, and that'swhat they do.

Speaker 2 (44:28):
So all the different technologies involved here are
so incredible.
And what I think is great aboutthis movie is that they use all
these.
It's like you're talking aboutSteve, like the different
puppets and when to use each one.
And you know, I feel like somany people like to say blanket
statements like I don't like CGIor I don't like, you know,

(44:48):
puppets or whatever it is.
But what's great what we knowworks really well and is
timeless is when you integrateall of it.
Right, like Jurassic Park usespuppets and CGI you use one for
one moment and another foranother moment.
So this thing about it this isa movie that does that as well.
Right, we have, you know.
So hand puppets for a betterterm, like what that?

(45:10):
Yeah, the Stam Muppet thing.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
Right Hand puppets, rod puppets, marionettes.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Yeah, so you have all those body puppets.
You have full body like a ghostof Christmas present.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
That's a guy in a suit.
It's like 14 puppeteers doinghis face.
That's a guy in a suit, rightyeah it's a guy in a suit, then
you have you know which Imentioned.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
His face is animatronic, yeah no, it was
remote.

Speaker 1 (45:30):
It was like 14 different people did him yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:32):
Then you have computer animated things.
I mean I don't know what theghost of Christmas future was.
I mean some combination of aguy in a suit and but there I
mean there's yeah, because thatwas also a rod puppet.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Look, it felt like it was similar to Sam the Eagle,
which is a half, and half andhalf, which is because you know.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Then you have models, then you know like real, real
live models you have.
You know blue screen, greenscreen, flying, all this
technology, and you combine itall together to create this
magical world and I think that'swhat's great.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
I mean it's when it works.
I mean and that's again, thisis not like people messing
around with it, you're talkingthe peak of artistry and
engineering and people that areknow how to bring a character to
life.
So I mean, ok, back to less,less technical and more story
stuff.
Sure, how many times do theyplay the joke of Rizzle?

(46:25):
The Rat falls off of something.
I count three.
Oh, because in the beginning hefalls off.
It's a very small joke, butthey're like his neck is a small
rat.
He's a small rat.
Good job, matt.
They're like, they're on thewindow looking at the thing and
he wipes the window with them.
Rizzle is like I'd like tothank you for making me a pot of
this Great line.
I love that line, anyway.

(46:45):
And then he's sitting on thewindow sill looking in and, like
his nephew is coming, I don'tsee him.
And then all of a sudden, thenephew comes in and Rizzle goes
and falls into the snow.

Speaker 2 (46:52):
Wait, is that when Michael Cain opens the window?

Speaker 3 (46:54):
No, no, no, that's not that one.
That's what I'm saying.
That's the first one.
The second one I can think ofis yes, when Michael Cain opens
the window and falls out of it.

Speaker 1 (47:01):
Oh, at the end it's like so four so I think of four.

Speaker 3 (47:04):
Third is the one when he jumps off the rail into the
snow and then goes to get thejelly bean Missed.
And then the fourth is like thelamp, not the rat.
Like the lamp, not the rat, andthen falls into the water.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Well, if you want to count the bookshelf that you
mentioned, oh, that'd be five.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
Well, because the other one is are we safe up here
?
It's at the end Are we safe uphere?
Oh, yeah, he's.
He's been Scrooge, has beensaved.
What could go wrong?
And then that's when he opensthe window and they fall out.
Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
So, and that's at the very end Is that the same, or
is that the same one?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
That's, that's, that's the one where he like
what day is it, oh my gosh, canwe talk about that little Muppet
, the cutest Muppet, oh my God,the rabbit?
So?

Speaker 3 (47:40):
that one, I think, is new in this movie for sure, and
I don't know what else he'sfrom, but that one sticks With
me.
Oh, it's so sweet.
My entire life I've loved thatMuppet.

Speaker 1 (47:49):
King Wenceslas looked out on the face of Stephen.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
And he throws the thing out and he's like Penny
for the song Goughna.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
And then you see him freezing in the paper bag.

Speaker 2 (48:01):
Oh my God, oh my God, that shivering Broke my heart
as a kid.

Speaker 3 (48:06):
Every time I was like get him a coat.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
He's so sweet, and then so when he's yelling at him
at the end, obviously likeafter he's been changed, like I
would be terrified the fact thathe I also love that he makes
him.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
What is it?
What the hell Michael's caneperforms is so wonderful, but in
the end he makes this littlekid carry around this huge
turkey.
And what the hell is MichaelCain doing with his hands?
Oh yeah, watch it again.
Just watch Michael Cain'sdancing.
He's dancing, but it's likeonly his hands and a little bit
of his shoulders.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yes, yes, it really is the Show Choir 101.

Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, it's very, it's very much like a.
He's like he's got down thehumbug and the undertop of
cheese and you know this.
He's like it's when you get tothe like the musical number
where he's singing and happy.
It's like all right, be happy,mr Cain.
And he's like I am happy.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
I mean we need to see a little more.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
This is me at happy.
This is I'm very happy.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Oh, which, by the way , and now, do you guys remember
this song that is actually cutout of most of the versions?

Speaker 3 (49:07):
Yes, yes, it's the man.
It's a sad song, it's so sad,but it's really good.
It's the, the, the, the thegirl friend when love is gone.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Beautiful song.
Oh yeah, yeah, I you know, butI remember watching when I was a
kid.
I wasn't digging it.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
I was bored.
Look, I mean when I was a kid Iwas like what is this part?

Speaker 1 (49:24):
That's why they took it out.
Yeah, I was going to say theexecutives weren't wrong at that
level, but when it comes to thestory, I did miss it.
The, the, the.
The storytelling aspect of thatis so rich and it comes back at
the end.
Is it when love is gone?
Yeah, when love is gone, yeah,and it sounds like to me it is

(49:48):
yeah.
There it is.
This to me is like the MuppetChristmas Carol meets Les Mis.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
I mean, it's a beautiful song, but it is she,
it is a love.
I mean I will say, if you'rethis actor, you know you're in
this thing for like two minutes,oh yeah.
And then you got one big songand it's like supposed to be the
big heartfelt thing.
It's gone.
Then they cut it, like it'slike yeah, this is it.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Now I don't know when they cut it, because I always
remember that.
I remember seeing that they'rein the snow right.

Speaker 3 (50:17):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and no, is this it.
This is not the finishedversion of it.
Oh, it can't be.
No, this is, this is not.

Speaker 1 (50:29):
Yeah, no, yeah when, because it's when it doesn't
sound like that it's morewhisper.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
No, it doesn't sound like that.
It's more wispy and anyway andit sounds like it's.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
I mean, honestly, it sounds like it's straight out of
Les Mis, and especially hervoice.
Wait, wait, wait, here it is.
Oh, there we go.

Speaker 3 (50:47):
Is this it?
Yeah, I don't think this is theperformer I remember.
No, no, this is not the voice.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
This is not her.

Speaker 3 (50:55):
This is not her.
This is the song, but this isnot the version of the song, you
know.
But I'm with you.
Like when I was a kid, I waslike, let's get back to Rizzo
the Raph.

Speaker 1 (51:06):
That is true and it's exactly what they do.
But this, the characterbuilding that's happening in
this moment, because it alsoreminds me this, and so in Rocky
and I remember my, so my nephewis a huge Rocky fan and and I
asked him I said, did you likethe first Rocky?
And he said, well, it's theslowest and interesting.

Speaker 3 (51:27):
Yeah, now, he's not wrong.
No, he's definitely not wrong,but it's also the by far the
best.

Speaker 1 (51:31):
It's, but exactly, but it's all that character
development that's spent.
Now he's 13.

Speaker 3 (51:37):
So I understand, of course.

Speaker 1 (51:38):
And if I'm 13 watching that and I'm 13
watching this, I don't want allyou know.
I don't want all the characterdevelopment of Rocky, because it
it's not what I'm there for andI don't need the character
development.
Well, you also don't understandit, you know and I think that's
why I mean I was watching thisas a 10 year old kid and I just

(52:00):
didn't understand that she wasbreaking up with him.

Speaker 3 (52:03):
Because he's like he has a fear of committing, is he
always wants more money andwhatever he's committed to, is
he's choosing his work over her.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Yeah, when love is gone.
Yeah, I mean the best, the best.

Speaker 3 (52:15):
I mean again talk about great writing, but he's
like I love you, belle, andshe's like you did once.

Speaker 1 (52:23):
Oh, that is heartbreaking.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
I remember that I was like but that is an adult, it
really cuts.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
Oh yeah, baby like oh no, yeah, as a single man, that
one cuts.
But that like that is also Iknow where.
So to circling back to what wewere saying, that was kind of
funny about what Michael Caintrying to dance or whatever, the

(52:50):
fact that he was able to justlike jump in and want to do it
and then it gets cut.
It's like dude, you got inthere, you're saying a duet,
you're not a singer, you crushedit.
You were like I'm game, likethe accolades, that one of the
most I don't know.
I don't want to sayunderappreciated, because the
movie is very appreciated.
But what's so underappreciatedis that this is a straight 180

(53:11):
from what this guy had beendoing.
Now, granted, he was working onJaws the Revenge, which is Jaws
4.
So I mean Michael Cain.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
Michael Cain.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yeah sure, yeah, it's in Jaws 4.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, it's in Jaws 4.
But you know, I mean the guywon the Oscar for Hannah and his
sisters, I mean, and had beenobviously I can't remember what
year that was, but obviously hadbeen around and was well known
and just dramatic.
And then it's like didn't needto sing, you know Right.
And then it was like, hey, canyou do this?
Abs, it's for a quote, muppetmovie which, just until people

(53:44):
recognized how you know topclass that was, it'd be easy to
dismiss.

Speaker 3 (53:50):
Right?

Speaker 1 (53:50):
No, it feel like I don't want to do a kiss maybe.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:52):
No, he jumped in and then to have it cut, which kind
of.
But I will circle back and saywhat you said, james, as a kid,
I didn't, I wouldn't have missedit.
I don't think I would havemissed it.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
Yeah, the Disney version that's online.
This is what I watch.
I wish it was on Disney Plus.
Yeah, same, and that version isbest, for I mean, I don't want
to say it's best.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
So it's cut in that version.
It's cut, it's cut, yeah.

Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's fastest for a kid.
Hey, can we talk about Fezzyweeks party for a second which?
Looks like a real banger of aparty.
Rubber chicken plant, rubberchicken plant and then again
awesome Like.
But then the animal.
Again, I am here for an animalgag.
I know it's coming every time,but the like, I know it's coming
and I'm here for it.
I love it.

(54:33):
This one they were veryrestrained in, but they're like.
I mean, we got to give theanimal lovers a little bit of
something, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yeah, that's true, and that's it.
And that's Frank Oz oh, that's.
Yeah, I ride Right.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
No, no, no, no, just goes nuts Ding ding, ding, ding.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, well, is it back to the future?
But your kids are going to loveit.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
So that's Ghost of Christmas.
That's because past Past still.
Ok, we've not even gotten anywe talked about past, but we got
to talk about the Ghost ofChristmas present.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
Yeah, which is obviously the best song in the
film of many good songs.
That is the whole.
Oh yeah, that song.

Speaker 1 (55:11):
like you know what I mean, I think Marley and Marley
is the one that's like theearworm that like just won't get
out.
Yeah, it's like a Marley andMarley Whoo.
Yeah, it's just that one getsstuck in there.
No, I mean and I hate to makethis a reference but it's kind
of like a Hannah Montana song.
I could not name a singleHannah Montana song.

(55:32):
Yeah, exactly, because if I do,it's going to be stuck in your
head, got it?
Well, I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Thank you for that.
Thank you for that.

Speaker 3 (55:37):
So Ghost of.

Speaker 2 (55:38):
Christmas present song.

Speaker 3 (55:39):
Yeah, the big.
I mean just so wonderful, thatcharacter, that jolly big
character.
So much fun.
I mean how they aged him overthe yeah, it was beautiful, it
was subtle, and then it picks upspeed and then you get the big,
sparkly things at the end whenhe disappears, which you know is
it?

Speaker 2 (55:57):
Yeah, it feels like Christmas.
Is that what we're talkingabout?
Feels like Christmas.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
Yeah, that is the feeling of the heart.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Oh yes, exactly that's the one.
1800 of his brothers camebefore him.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yes that's such a great line yeah, and it's just,
and you realize, you know sowhen I was watching this I
didn't realize what that meant,until he's disappearing at the
end.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Yes, right, he's fading away and you realize.
100th time, that's it.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
You know he is the ghost of Christmas present.
He only lives for this day.
Yeah, you know the stroke ofmidnight.
He leaves at the stroke ofmidnight and that's it.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
But that's what the go.
I mean, that's what this ghostof Christmas present represents.
Is that Christmas spirit, thatjolliness, that feeling of being
around people you love and like, the things and the magic of
the day?
And then it just, it does, itdissipates and sort of dies.

Speaker 2 (56:47):
And he is a Santa Claus type.
He's a Santa Claus for sure.
You know, they did really wellright, they, they, they skirt
that line really well.
He, he is Santa, and yet youknow, they don't go too far with
it.
He's not saying he's notwearing a red hat, but he's not
bringing the but you getpresents, but it delves into
that joyousness.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yes Side of it, yeah, latter Day not so Icelandic,
not the Icelandic version ofSanta, which is, you know, not
as joyous and happy.

Speaker 3 (57:16):
Right.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Exactly, I mean because you know he was friends
with Krampus.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
but an amazing character.
I will always remember so happy, so jolly.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
You know it's my favorite section of the movie,
for as much as we've talkedabout everything else.
When I watch it, that sectionis the section that I love.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
You know I'm here and know me man Exactly.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
That was a really good impression.
It was nice.
I'm really into that.

Speaker 2 (57:41):
Wow, that's a good job For Lord of the Rings fans,
and there are a lot of them.
I'm Bombadil, tom Bombadil.
I mean, this is Tom Bombadiland we didn't get that for
people who only know the movies.
There's a character in thebooks that's not in the movies
and everyone who'd read thebooks wishes he was, because
it's such a fun character.
My favorite character in thewhole series.

(58:01):
When you think about it, thisis the best.
I mean this is never I never,yes, I never,

Speaker 3 (58:07):
thought about that, but this is Tom Bombadil.

Speaker 2 (58:09):
That's what it is.
It's kind of magic.
You know fairy, but robust.
You know magical and whimsical,but grounded and hearty.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
I mean, these are also my favorite type of puppets
, these like huge, you know,like I mean it is a character.
You know I mean that thing,when it moves, is like
everything on it, has like areactionary, secondary move.
You know, I mean like the hair,the hair and his costume is so
beautiful, it's wonderful, likeit just looks like so much fun,

(58:43):
yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
And I love how they end with the his sizing, because
of course he comes in and he'smassive, he doesn't fit in the
room, and then later you see himwith the Mises I was trying to
decide what the why does he comein and be start so big and then
immediately shrink down?
It's in the text, but I can'tremember why.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
off the top of my head, Our literary listeners
will you know, I thought when Isaw I watched this movie last
night and I watched again thismorning I love it.
I love this movie, like, and itjust I immediately thought I
was like, I have to.
I went to my New York PublicLibrary app, which, if you're in
New York, and I got to say thislike they have.
Yes, libby, libby, it is amazing.

(59:25):
I don't know if this exists inother things, but I just found
it this year because a friend ofours works in New York Public
Library and he mentioned it tome.
Oh right, and I downloaded itand it is awesome, like it is an
incredible app, and I like Ihave a card for Queens and for
New York City so I can like renta couple books and I do audio
books a lot.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
I love audio books, yep, but I went and looked and
got me into audio books.
Thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
Well, you're welcome and Libby has the best player,
but I'm already on the wait listbecause everybody's trying to
read a Christmas Carol right now, so I'm trying to find one that
I can listen to, and they haveone.
I think it's narrated by TimCurry that I'm on the waiting
list for I'm excited about that.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Well, you know, you got to talk to Matt Mundy here
because he knows all aboutGothic horror Christmas tales,
which the Christmas Carol is oneof them yes.
Yes, a lot of people don'trealize this, but this was a
huge trend in the 1800s ofpublishing these ghost stories
during Christmas, you know, andwe don't think of today.
You know, these days, I don'tthink we think of Christmas time

(01:00:22):
, as you know, ghost story time,we think of Halloween, as that
Right In the 1800s it was verymuch so and it was kind of like
it gets cold, you knoweveryone's, you know, sitting
around their place by the fireand there's no street lights.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
You know, like they put that, they have lamp
lighters, right, and so the lamplighters turn the lights off
and there's no.
You know, I mean, this isbefore gas, obviously, but it's
Victorian, which is when ithappened, because Victorians
became in love with the darkghost story and also murders,
right, and any of our listenerswho are and they may be, you
know, trent I would say, was itthe, not the murder mysteries,

(01:01:00):
the true crime, true crime.
It's like all of that stems fromthis, like there is a you can
see from the design of Victorianera stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:01:11):
We, like you know, we've been like you know that
that is all like the wigs andthe tight and the oppression and
the high collars and everythingsort of like you know,
tapestries and rugs and bullshit.
You know like it feels likethat sort of haunted world.

Speaker 1 (01:01:25):
Yeah, well, and I've, and there is.
I mean, there's a series ofbooks that are out and they and
it's great it's there Most ofthem, I believe, are edited by
Philip O is his last name.
I can't remember his first name, but he's a brother of a dear
friend of mine and he editsthese and he's put out four or

(01:01:47):
five of these in the last fouror five years and they look at
the serial storytelling of thattime.
They're from newspapers andfrom pamphlets and books and
just writers that we wouldn'tknow and at the time, which we
take for granted, that aChristmas Carol just stands out,
right.

(01:02:07):
It's like, you know, jurassicPark stands out but everybody
writes about dinosaurs, but noteverybody talks about the people
that write about dinosaurs.
We talk about Jurassic Park and, like, a Christmas Carol is the
one that stands out of allthese ghost stories, and I've
read 60, 70 of them.
Wow, you really are anefficient.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
It was a genre.
Yeah, and that's what's crazy.
You don't realize a ChristmasCarol was a.
It was in a genre ofinteresting ghost story
Christmas ghost stories and thenyou start to see it.
Once you learn this, you startto see it like in Christmas
songs.
You know it's the mostwonderful time of the year.
There'll be scary ghost storiesand tales of glory of Christmas

(01:02:50):
is long, long ago you know it'slike scary ghost stories in the
middle of the Christmas song.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
And they knew.
And then what was?
What's the first line of thisbook, steve?
You mentioned?
It earlier, the Marleys weredead to begin with, exactly we
great opening line, and also tohow brilliant that has to be,
because if Marley is not dead,it doesn't mean much.
But if the Marleys were dead,this entire story revolves

(01:03:17):
around.
You, the reader, you, theviewer, have to know that they
didn't just show up at my house,they were dead, right, that is
the most important thing here,because if they weren't dead,
none of this story matters.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
If they were, you know, hold on to your butts, um
well, I get the sense too andthis isn't really in the Muppet
Christmas Carol, I don't think,but it's in the story.
I get the sense that there is alot of meaning in that.
Where it's like, I get thesense that the Marley well, in
this case the Marley Brothersweren't necessarily, um, you

(01:03:54):
know, good people to begin withyou feel like they were kind of
always shitty and like theymight do a shitty grave, and
during this story we get that.
You know, scrooge had thisglimmer of hope when he was a
young kid, you know, and withthe love story, you know, with
the relationship, you know likemaybe he could have been
different, you know, but heturned away.

Speaker 3 (01:04:15):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
And there's still that oh, it's not too late, you
can still come out of this.
You can still, you know, openyour heart, that type of thing
which is what Spirit it is allabout, and you've got to go
watch it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
I'm just telling you, look at this, it turned into it
all the way around.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Yeah, I mean what are the final thoughts, kind of you
guys have on this.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
Well, before we do final thoughts, we have to talk
about the Ghost of ChristmasFuture.
Sure, sure yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:37):
And by the way, just for anybody who would care, it's
the Valencourt book ofVictorian Christmas ghost
stories, and they have volumeone, volume two, volume three,
volume four.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
And that's completely apt for the Ghost of Christmas
Future.
Because the Ghost of ChristmasFuture is terrifying.
I mean, if this wasn't amacabre kind of scary movie.
At times, when you get to theGhost of Christmas Future, all
bets are off.
It's fucking terrifying, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:04):
It's the Grim Reaper.
I mean it's a grim reaper Againit is a grim reaper.

Speaker 1 (01:05:08):
And I think to me, no matter what you do, if you're
telling and this is just mepersonally anybody that wants to
attack this story or attachthemselves to this story and
feels compelled to tell thisstory, you can miss on a bunch
of things.
But if Ghost of ChristmasFuture is not scary, what are

(01:05:28):
you?

Speaker 3 (01:05:28):
doing.
That's the whole thing right.
You have to Like.
What's the point theconventional story is.
He has to turn the corner.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yeah, and it's baked in and it makes me wonder, like
so is the Ghost of ChristmasFuture?
Like that way to every?
Would that be the spirit foreveryone?
Or?

Speaker 3 (01:05:44):
is it just because it's screwed?
It's a good question, becausewe only really see the rehashing
of this story.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
It's usually it's his future Right and his future is
death Right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Well, I think everyone's future is also true.

Speaker 2 (01:05:57):
I mean 100% right there Also true, so maybe that's
terrifying, but not just thespirit.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
Well, it's like all the things that it gives him
leading up to.
It is like the things thatimpact him or not that he is
dead, as much as that.
It's like that his life didn'tmatter how people react to it
Right.
He is literally just a he's.
You know what is it called?
The carrion for vultures.
Yeah, it's come on the heels ofhim.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Like him being able to listen in and this is where I
joke sometimes about thepsychological torture of an old
man, but the truth is he's beenable to hear what people
actually think about him, right,yeah exactly Like it does take
away the veneer of protectingmyself and I'm OK, and I'm fine,
I'm doing the right thing.
Well, this is the impact.
I mean it's very Maya Angelou,and what I mean by that is

(01:06:44):
people don't and this is again aparaphrase people don't always
remember what you say, but theyremember how you made them feel.

Speaker 3 (01:06:50):
Right Sure For sure.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
And this is that moment.
I'll cratch it.
You know everyone.
And it goes back to what I wassaying before, where it's like
again, like I feel like if youshowed the Marley's this, they
wouldn't care, or I get thatsense.
Interesting, you know it's likeyou know, they'd be like fuck
him, you know, yeah, but there'ssomething in Scrooge where he
sees this reaction.

Speaker 1 (01:07:12):
When do you think that happens?
When do you think the firstmoment of Scrooge melting
happens?
And I'm going to sayspecifically in this where do
you think that?

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
in this movie, in the Muppet Christmas Carol I think
it's during the song we justplayed it feels like Christmas.
There's a great moment.
It calls back to what you weretalking about, Steve, with the
Mises.
The Mises Because he bends downand he goes down to the ground
and he looks through the mousehole and he looks at those Mises
in there.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
And Ghost of Christmas Present is in there,
in there.

Speaker 2 (01:07:42):
And he kind of, and he smiles, he has a little bit
of a smirk.
Yes, I think that's the firsttime I was like, oh shit, he
likes, he's like, well, I thinkyou know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
I think the real trigger moment was the whole,
like going back to his fianceemovie For sure.

Speaker 1 (01:07:56):
I think that's the whole thing he's like don't show
me this, Don't show me this,please.

Speaker 3 (01:08:00):
The trigger of the moment that caused him to lose
touch with humanity.
For sure, for sure.
And then now he's open to themoment where you know what I
mean, they can be shown.
You know the present of thingsaround him that could be, he
could have a positive impact on,and then he's shown the future
for what will happen if hedoesn't change himself, but on
that point.

Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
I just got to hit real here because I know we got
to wrap up, but I got to hit theselling of the bedsheets that
moment.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
Yeah, it's great.
Oh yeah, it's so.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Are they worth more?
Because they're warm?

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
It's impactful in the story just in the sense that
they're set like this guy's deadand these people came in here
and took all his shit andthey're selling it.
Yeah, those character old Joe,it's done in the movie so well,
old Joe is a spider, yeah, yeah.
Oh man, it's so scary andcreepy and it's very quick, but
it's just like ah man.

(01:08:52):
That always stuck with me.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Yeah, I know it's great.
Yeah and it's where, likeMichael Cain is, or Scrooge at
that point is breaking.
He's like show me sometenderness or I will soon be
overcome.

Speaker 3 (01:09:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And that's again I will say,like what the words they gave
Michael Cain, feel like a directyeah extraction.
And same with the Gonzo feellike a direct there's a lot of
verbatim verbatim or almostverbatim, extraction from a
Christmas Carol, which again iswhy you think it works so well,
because you've got ridiculousMuppets compared with one of the

(01:09:25):
best classical actors of thecentury, say saying some of the
best words from historic Britishfiction, and then you've got
the peak of slapstick Muppetcomedy.
It just the contradiction worksso well and so many ways it's
so fun.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
I would say it's like more from a musical standpoint.
It's like counterpointing.

Speaker 3 (01:09:46):
Yeah, it's exactly right the count.
It is a counterpoint.
You know he is playing thissort of like.
Yeah, I'm going to get realmetaphoric here.
He's playing this sort of likecello, very you know moody
melody.
And then you got this kind oflike you know trumpet with a
plunger like over the top of it.
And it's as if it was writtenby you know Rock, mononof or

(01:10:09):
something.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
It's like it's brilliant, big credit to Jerry
Joel, who was the, you know, thewriter of the screenplay, and
him calling for that to be like.
We need this.
This is what's going to makethe story stand out.
Because, and as we ask, youknow, in making movies ourselves
, why does this story need to betold?
And, of course, with a and ifyou can't answer that, don't do

(01:10:32):
it.
And if and if you think aboutthis, why does this story need
to be told?
Well, because, and then we see,because it's one of the most
faithful retellings of it, andall the counterpointing makes it
that much more colorful.
Because it has the cello, ithas the trumpet with the you
know, I can't remember whatthat's called the toilet plunger
.
Yeah, the toilet plunger,that's the technical, the

(01:10:53):
technical term.
Yep, I mean, that's what it is.
Yeah, slide out, slide in myDMs and come at me the Jesus
Christ.
But it also, I also just wantto say the moment where Ghost of
Christmas present and I know wegot to, you know, but when he,
like, he's standing behindScrooge and Scrooge is in

(01:11:15):
Cratchett's house and you seethat he's connected with this
little, innocent, tiny Tim andhe can't take his eyes off of
him.
And I think the quote from thebook is Scrooge kept his eyes on
tiny Tim until the last, so ashe's transitioned, they show

(01:11:36):
that in the shot.

Speaker 2 (01:11:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:11:37):
And then, like the, background Don't they say that
in this movie, and then they sayit yeah, they say it, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
Yeah, so verbatim, so much of verbatim, which is,
again, the prose is beautiful,back to where we started with
this whole thing and, steve, youasked for, you know, closing
thoughts and I mean I think itends where it starts, which is,
you know, talking about the factthat they added the narrator,
yeah, which was Gonzo, and thenyeah, here's your counterpoint,
right there.
And yet he was also CharlesDickens.

Speaker 3 (01:12:06):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
It is just, I mean, the big question we always ask
and I guess I'll start this onebecause I'm here Does it hold up
?
I mean a thousand times yes, Imight watch this movie a third
time before Christmas.
I mean, this movie is awesome.
It is more than a turn on in ahotel.
It's like seek it out and turnit on immediately.
You're missing every time.
You haven't watched it a year.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
It's event.

Speaker 3 (01:12:29):
Watching it.
It's event.
You got to see it once a yearfor sure.

Speaker 2 (01:12:33):
Oh, at least for me what about you, james, of course
I mean of course.
It holds up 100%.
I watched this as a kid.
It was amazing.
I watched it again as ateenager.
I thought it was amazing, Iwatched it again.
I watched a lot of the stuffthat I watched when I was a kid,
again in college, when I firstthought at least I thought at

(01:12:53):
the time I was an adult.
Oh right, yeah, well, I wasdifferent than I was when I was
a kid.
You're the first plateau ofadulthood and so a lot of that.
I was rewatching stuff likethis.
I was just like, oh my god,this is amazing.
And I rewatch it now and it'sincredible.
I think it holds up.
I think the true test is ifkids today can watch it and
enjoy it and I think they would,and I think if they don't, then

(01:13:16):
I'm going to shake my fist hereand say they don't hold up.
But, I think it absolutely does.
I think it's a great retellingof a classic and, like we said,
it makes it funny but doesn'tdumb it down, which I think a
lot of filmmakers can take alesson from today.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Yes, well said, both of you guys like yeah one.
They don't dumb it down, theylean into the prose, which is
19th century serialized prosethat's meant to be as wordy as
possible, and yet he writes anovella, right, right, it's
straight to the point and he'seconomic in his writing.
I mean, this comes out of aplace of desperation, and so

(01:14:00):
much art we talk about comes outof desperation.
He's been, he's in debt.
He grew up this is Dickens, bythe way, of course.
Yeah, not Gonzo.
Yeah, not Gonzo.
He was never in debt.
He made a lot of money on that,first firing out of the canon.
But I mean, this is a man withhis kids and he's had failed

(01:14:21):
businesses, but he never gave up.
He kept writing, he kept doingall these.
He was an entrepreneur and asmuch as one could be at that
time.
And then he writes a story outof desperation, which means I
don't have time to BS, I've justgot to get out what I want to
tell.
And yes, it was at a time whenthe genre was hot, so people

(01:14:45):
were already primed to be intoit.
But then to economize all theemotions that people are going
through and what people wantedout of this time Again, the
Charlie Brown Christmas talksabout this.
Oh, I forgot about that one.
That's not a Christmas Carol,though, sorry.
This is a great Christmas movie.

(01:15:05):
I love it, but it's the economypart of that storytelling.
That's a 22 minute show andthis was supposed to be a TV
show, and I love a TV movie.
A TV movie, yeah, a TV movie.
I love that this not only holdsup as a Muppet movie, it holds

(01:15:26):
up as a Christmas Carol and itholds up as a Christmas movie on
the whole and that, I think,speaks to one the economizing
and beautiful poetry prose,rather, of Dickens and the
respect that it was dealt withand the respect that they dealt

(01:15:50):
with the Muppets which, to yourpoint, the Muppets are silly,
crazy and they're all over theplace.
But that doesn't mean they'renot also serious.
It doesn't mean that when MrsCratchit, ms Piggy, who does not
have a large role, whenEbenezer Scrooge does the only
thing I did not like, which heplays, that mean trick on

(01:16:10):
Cratchit at the very end, thevery end, yeah, before he gives
him a raise, and you see Piggyjust explode and that was
beautiful, like of course shewould explode.
She doesn't do something sillyand crazy, it comes from a real
emotional place.

Speaker 3 (01:16:27):
All Muppets always come from a grounded place.

Speaker 1 (01:16:30):
Even when they're the most ridiculous things.

Speaker 3 (01:16:32):
They come from a grounded place.

Speaker 1 (01:16:33):
So I'll land my whatever plane to say not only
do I think it holds up, I thinkthat it will continue Like if
I'm going to be, I'll stay ashumble as I can about it, and I
think it should.
If it doesn't, it should remainone of the best Christmas
movies, as long as anyone iswatching Christmas movies.

Speaker 3 (01:16:55):
I'm with you, man, 100% Guys.
I loved hanging out with youand talking about the Muppet
Christmas Carol and it felt likethank God we got to watch this
one.
You know what I mean?
I love getting in the year onthis, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Well, look, it's been a great year, guys.
Merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, happy Kwanzaa, happy Festivus,
feliz Navidad, happy Holidaysin general, and happy New Year
for the coming year.

Speaker 3 (01:17:22):
Happy New Year to everyone out there.
We'll see you in 2024.
Marley and Marley.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
Whoa.

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"The Muppet Christmas Carol" | with guest James Allerdyce

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}"The Muppet Christmas Carol" | with guest James Allerdyce