June 10, 2025 • 40 mins
Customer support is just one step on a much larger path. So how do you make sure every step along your customer’s journey is intentional, seamless, and delightful?
In this episode, Priscilla welcomes Doing CX Right host and customer experience expert Stacy Sherman to demystify the practice of customer journey mapping. With 25+ years of experience building connections between people and brands, Stacy breaks down how to go beyond support tickets and start crafting every phase of the customer experience with purpose.
Check out Stacy's book, "Transformative Experience Journey Management", her podcast "Doing CX Right," and free templates at doingcxright.com.
We want to hear from you! Share your support stories and questions with us at happytohelp@buzzsprout.com!
To learn more about Buzzsprout visit Buzzsprout.com.
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Priscilla (00:00):
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people atBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, Priscilla Brooke.
Today we're entering the worldof journey mapping.
The customer's experience ismore than just their
interactions with your supportteam.
So today we're discussing whatjourney mapping is, how it can
impact your product and customerexperience, and some strategies
for doing it successfully.
(00:21):
Thanks for joining us.
Let's get into it.
I am really excited todaybecause we have a wonderful
guest with us to introduce us tothe world of journey mapping,
which is something I don't have.
A ton of experience with,Jordan.
Have you ever heard of journeymapping?
Jordan (00:37):
No, I've never heard of this.
Priscilla (00:39):
Yeah, I feel like I've started to hear about it in
the last couple months, but thefact that I've been working in
customer experience for almost adecade and haven't really heard
about before, that isinteresting.
So I'm excited because todayjoining us is Stacy Sherman.
Stacy has dedicated 25 years tocreating authentic connections
between people and brands.
(00:59):
She is a published author, akeynote speaker and the host of
the podcast Doing CX Right.
She's also the founder of DoingCX Right Consultancy, where she
helps companies andprofessionals improve their
customers' experience.
Thanks for joining us today,Stacy.
Stacy (01:14):
Thank you for having me.
Priscilla (01:15):
Yeah, this is really fun.
This is like your expertise,and so I'm really really pumped
for you to join us and talk tous and just share with our
listeners all of your amazinginsights, you know what I'm
really happy toOh, there we go.
I love it.
I love it.
It's funny.
When we started talking aboutHappy to Help is the possible
name, I was like, oh, I hope itjust becomes like part of the
(01:36):
vernacular and like theconversation.
So it's really fun.
I love it when people say I'mhappy to be here, I'm happy to
help.
Before we jump into it.
We always like to start ourepisodes with kind of like a
surge of positivity and shoutout someone in the world of CX
or just in your world who hasmade your day better, because we
have such a great opportunityand customer support to
(01:56):
positively impact people's days.
Stacy (01:59):
I'd say my husband.
Great answer ,.
Great answer.
Yeah, well, especially becauseI did not have any role models
growing up in the area ofmarriage.
I come from a divorced family,so going on 30 years this year
is a big deal.
Yeah, and I answer that with myhusband because we've had a big
(02:23):
pivot in our lives, and that isI've been in the corporate
world for 25 years and now anentrepreneur, and so without him
going on this journey with meand every day supporting that, I
just I'm speechless, as you cantell.
Priscilla (02:39):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that answer.
It's so important to havesomeone in your corner who's
cheering you on when you'redoing something new, especially.
But, even when you're doingthings over time and it becomes,
you know, sometimes routine oryou're like is this the place
I'm supposed to be?
Is this what I'm supposed to bedoing?
To have someone in your cornerReally encouraging you, that's
so wonderful.
And 30 years Congratulations,that's amazing.
Stacy (03:02):
It really is.
I don't take it for granted.
Congratulations, that's amazing.
It really is.
I don't take it for granted.
Yeah, but life is aboutexperiences, which is why I talk
about it personally andprofessionally.
Priscilla (03:11):
Yeah, it's all made up of experiences in the
professional world and in thepersonal world.
I love it.
What an amazing answer.
It really is an amazing answer.
So for our listeners who arenot familiar with the work you
do, can you share a little bitmore about your extensive
background in journey mapping,but in customer experience, and
then also just what you loveabout working in customer CF?
Stacy (03:31):
Yes.
So I grew up in marketing andsales and I fell into customer
experience, and what I mean bythat is there became this moment
, this choice, when I wasworking in corporate that dude,
I want to continue the marketingand promoting and selling, or
(03:52):
did I want to go where it'sactually designing the
experiences that people havewith brands, both the customer
and client and equally importantare the employees, the
workforce that deliver thatexperience and so I decided to
pivot and really lean into thatexperience management.
(04:15):
Journey mapping is a tool, it'sa framework, it's a way to
design to make sure that you'rereally meeting the needs and
impacting lives.
My background, though, isreally that blend of meeting
needs and stopping loss losingcustomers, losing employees,
(04:36):
losing friendships, losing jobsand so I want to stop the loss.
Priscilla (04:42):
Yeah, life is too short, right, we got to move
back to the enjoyable part of itand stop the loss.
I love that.
So in your podcast Doing CXRight, which is a great podcast,
and everyone who's listening tothis should go and listen to
that podcast because it's reallyfantastic yes, you always ask
your listeners to go back and togive you some kind of advice
(05:03):
that they would give themselvesas a 20-year-old starting in the
corporate world.
So I figured, I'd flip thataround and ask you what advice
would you give yourself?
Stacy (05:11):
Yeah.
So my question is that, but notpertaining to the corporate
world.
It is about your younger,20-year-old self, based on what
you know now.
What would you tell yourselfthen?
So for me to answer that, mybelief is to take more risks.
Cross the street by myselfearlier, let go of the railing
(05:32):
earlier because I was afraid tofall, I was afraid to get lost
and therefore I didn't go manyplaces.
I stayed around my neighborhoodand now I take more chances.
I go on more roller coasterrides, so much more because it's
(05:52):
blue sky and not being afraidto fail.
Priscilla (06:11):
Yeah, I mean, there is so much that can be learned
in the midst of failing or notdoing the thing exactly how you
expected it would turn out, andso I think that's such good
advice for anyone really at anystage in life corporate, not
corporate whatever you're doing,it's okay to fail, it's okay to
give it a shot, and if itdoesn't work out, you've learned
from it and you could trysomething new.
Stacy (06:33):
Yes, and I have to say my real truth, because podcasting
is a love of mine, it's a drugof choice.
And one thing about this wholefear of failing is that I didn't
take my microphone out of thebox for six months.
Oh wow, because I was afraid tostart podcasting.
(06:55):
I was afraid Do I have theright microphone?
Do I know this?
Do I have that?
And so if you are an aspiringpodcaster or entrepreneur or
whatever it is, take the mic outof the box.
Priscilla (07:07):
Yeah, I love it.
That's so good.
It's not a unique experience toyou.
So many podcasters specificallyhave a hard time with that
first episode, getting the micout of the box, setting it up.
And you're right, just do it.
Start doing it and you willfigure it out as you go.
So let's get into journeymapping.
Will figure it out as you go.
So let's get into journeymapping.
Like I said, this is pretty newto me as a technique to use in
(07:28):
customer support or just inbrand loyalty with your
customers and your customerexperience, but you have been
doing this for a while and youhave a ton of information and
insight into how to do thisreally well.
So, to just start off, foranyone who doesn't know what
journey mapping is maybe it'sthe first time they're hearing
this term Can you define whatjourney mapping is and some of
(07:50):
those phases that a customermight go through during their
journey?
Stacy (07:55):
Yes, absolutely so at high level.
A customer journey is literallythose micro moments that you
experience with a brand, and soit's the intentionality to map
that out, and you start firstwith your internal teams how a
customer, a client, a prospectwill learn that you exist.
(08:18):
So that's typically marketing.
It's the awareness and learnbeginning stage.
Then the buying experience howwill they buy what you're
offering?
Is it e-commerce?
Is it a retail store?
Is it a salesperson comes toyou directly?
How will you get what youbought?
Is it shipping?
(08:38):
Again, do you have to go pickit up?
So the learn, buy, get use, payand get help.
And get help is what we know ascustomer service, and it's an
essential part of the customerexperience.
But it's not the same.
Customer service and customerexperience are not the same
(08:59):
thing, and that's where peoplemake a mistake, because customer
service and customer support isa important part of the journey
.
It is not the whole journey.
Priscilla (09:11):
And one of the things that you say a lot is that
everyone has a customerexperience role.
You talk about that a littlebit, about how everyone can have
a part of that experience, notcan must.
Stacy (09:24):
Must.
Yeah, because here's the thingIf marketing is coming out with
these great promotionalcampaigns, if all the people in
that journey are not at thetable and understanding what's
marketing doing, how are peoplegoing to get the offer?
How are they going to get, ifthere's an issue with the
(09:45):
billing get that support?
If the contact center andcustomer success and service
team don't know about that offer.
The customer calls in and sayswhere's that promotion?
It's not working.
And the care team says I'm sosorry, I don't even know what
you're talking about.
Right, they leave.
Yeah, so everybody needs to bepart of the exercise of
(10:07):
designing the experience, thecommunication flow.
How does it communicate throughthe journey?
What's the technology usedthrough the journey?
Where's the AI versus the human?
And then you don't stop there.
You then go to real customersand clients and ask them what
you design, does it really meetyour needs?
(10:29):
If we offer a certain way foryou to pay your bill, but that's
not helpful to them, you'remissing, there's a gap.
You need to know that and goback to your internal teams and
say we've got to alter this.
Priscilla (10:42):
Yeah, so it's clear, just hearing you talk about it,
that you are very passionateabout this journey mapping
strategy.
Yeah, what got you into journeymapping in the first place?
Like when did you first learnabout it, and where is all this
passion come from?
Stacy (10:56):
Yeah.
So two reasons.
One, as a consumer of brands,like you, I just have no
tolerance when brands make it sodifficult to get help to buy
the friction.
There's no reason for it.
So personally, as a consumer, Iget so heated when some
(11:17):
company's wasting my time orcreating that effort so I want
to do something about it.
And then, professionally, thatwas the role that when I was in
a couple of companies ago, theyjust threw me that ball and they
said Stacy, you own customerexperience on top of the
marketing efforts.
And I said, oh well, what doesthat mean?
(11:37):
And they said you go figure itout.
And so the good news is Ifigure everything out and the
bad news is I didn't like thatboss in the moment.
Priscilla (11:49):
It's healthy to be able to separate those two
things, to say I love this thing, I love figuring that out, but
the place I'm doing it is notideal, and sometimes I think
it's hard to separate those twothings, and so kudos to you for
separating it and stayingpassionate about the thing
you're passionate about and notletting the organization you're
in kind of affect that.
Stacy (12:10):
It became an opportunity that I saw every company,
regardless of size andregardless of product and
service, that this ability tomap out the customer journey,
the client experience.
It can start on the back of anapkin or whiteboard to then
using those sophisticated tools.
(12:31):
So I want people listening tounderstand that don't get
nervous about the tech stack andhow you do it, really go old
school and I'm happy to helpliterally.
Priscilla (12:46):
So, like you were just talking about customer
support, interactions are partof the journey, but they're not
the whole journey.
So you talked a little bitabout how each department will
have a connection with this mapover time, but who owns it?
Like, where would you put theownership of the customer
journey mapping?
Stacy (13:04):
Companies that have a customer experience manager or
leader or team.
They typically are the Elmer'sglue of the company.
Yeah, and that was the role Iplayed.
If you don't have that role inyour company, well come talk to
me, because you need it, and ifyou don't, then someone in the
(13:26):
organization really needs totake that responsibility and it
needs to be at the executivelevel, so that it becomes a
priority for every departmentand that people are measured in
the same way, because if youdon't have those unified
customer goals, no one cares andit becomes the blame game.
Priscilla (13:46):
Yeah, which is a dangerous game to play.
Yes, you were talking aboutthat communication that's
necessary between thesedifferent departments and how
having that strong communicationis really necessary in order to
make an actual, accuratejourney map of the customer's
experience.
Accurate journey map of thecustomer's experience what kind
(14:08):
of strategies or advice do youhave for companies that maybe
don't have very goodcommunication there?
Let's say that someone'slistening to this who's in the
customer service world andthey're like I really think we
need to have more cohesion here.
What would you say to thatperson to try to get that
communication to be stronger sothat they can start mapping out
that journey a little better?
Stacy (14:31):
Yeah, a couple answers.
So one is, if you're in acustomer service and support
success role number one goshadow other people in other
departments.
Learn what it's like in theirshoes and then connect the dots
to how it impacts your team.
Don't wait for a formal program.
Number two invite those peopleto your team meetings to listen
(14:54):
in on customer or client callsso they understand your space in
the big picture.
I would also set up agovernance where people come
together and literally solutionthe problems you hear on the
front line of the complaints,the frictions and the good
points to celebrate.
(15:15):
I would also recommend, if wejust laser in the customer
service, the customer caredepartment, there is a journey
within that entire roleInteresting, so you can now go
into that whole micro moment ofwhat's it like to be the caller,
(15:37):
what's it like to be the onechatting, and how have you
designed that experience to be.
For example, if someone needsto call for help, well, what is
the 800 number experience?
What do they hear?
What are the prompts?
Is it easy or difficult?
Do they have to repeatthemselves when they get to a
(15:59):
human?
Do they get to a human?
Yeah, what's it like for thehuman who's trying to service
that customer or person callingin?
How many systems do they haveto go through?
Is the content updated to beable to provide the support?
There's a whole lot of momentsof truth, yeah.
So you map that, you designthat, you optimize that, but you
(16:23):
can't do it just internally.
You've got to bring thecustomer to the table so that
it's a co-design andoptimization and measurement of
just even in the customerservice realm.
Priscilla (16:35):
Yeah.
So let me ask you when I wasfirst introduced to journey
mapping, I really didn't knowwhat the final result looked
like, whether it was a writtenexplanation of the journey or
whether it was more of a graphickind of view.
Jordan (16:48):
That's what I'm picturing is like an infographic
, yeah.
Priscilla (16:51):
So, and I think over the last couple of months,
learning more about it is moreof a visual type of thing.
Can you tell us a little bitmore what that like final
product looks?
Stacy (16:59):
like Absolutely.
So what I do coming intocompanies is do these workshops
where there is a template ofgoing through the journey.
It can be the entire experience.
If I can get everybody fromdifferent departments together,
ideally.
And if I come into just onedepartment, it would be
workshopping that organizationand what they've designed or
(17:24):
sometimes don't design.
It's just kind of afree-for-all.
We do map out on paper and helpevery team member connect the
dots to see oh, that's your role, the domino effect that
everybody can now see.
Oh, that's why you always askme for that information, oh,
that's why you need this from me.
(17:45):
And so everybody then sees, notthat they're all going to do
every job, but they understandand can be accountable and see
where the gaps that nobody iscommunicating to fix that.
So it is visual and then youcan overlay the data thereafter.
Priscilla (18:03):
That makes me excited because I love making things
look nice.
That's like one of my strengths, and so the idea of like, oh,
getting to figure out how tographically make it look really
cool, like that, makes meexcited about journey mapping,
for sure.
Stacy (18:16):
Yeah, no, and it's an important point here, because
the journey map is not wall artRight.
A lot of times people will justtake the journey due to the
exercise and then it stays inthe desk, and that's where
companies go wrong, because thenyou've got to go put it into
action any good, and I thinkthere's also.
Priscilla (18:47):
I would assume that there's an aspect of updating it
too.
Maybe as your product changesor as you learn more about your
customers and their experiences,you will update that journey
map over time 100%.
Stacy (18:55):
And not only that your customer, your base, their needs
are changing in this fast-pacedtech world, but you're also
deploying technology, and that'spart of the exercise.
Where, in this journey, is thetechnology, the AI, the one
delivering the experience,versus the human that has to be
(19:17):
on the map?
Priscilla (19:18):
Yeah, so how do you see journey mapping influence,
the day-to-day work at a company?
So the day-to-day, like youwere just talking about those
changes, how do you see thatreally affecting product
development and customer supportand these different areas that
are mapping it out?
Stacy (19:34):
Well, a lot of times.
I like that you brought upproduct development, because
many times, product developmentteams will develop a product or
a new feature offer, throw itout and hope it sticks, and
that's wasted time, money,effort.
Instead, you need to get thecustomer feedback early in this
journey that they're designing,and so that's why it's so
(19:56):
important that it's an iterativeprocess, day-to-day.
Where this comes into play iswhat I would call the voice of
customer VOC, and that isgetting the voice of your
customers, your clients,intentionally in structured and
unstructured ways, and what thatmeans is when you have your
(20:18):
journey, you actually are payingattention to those micro
moments that either you'regetting in a survey or you're
getting on social media becausepeople are talking about your
brand, or you're getting it inyour website contact form, that
people are filling out Ratingsand review sites.
There's so much informationthat people are giving you.
(20:40):
Are you paying attention andare you using it to optimize the
journey you've created?
Priscilla (20:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know you've worked with alot of different people and
companies on journey mapping andsetting this up for them and
your workshops.
Do you have any success storiesthat you can share with us of
companies that really haveimplemented this and it's had a
huge impact on the brand loyaltyand the customer's experience?
Stacy (21:07):
huge impact on the brand loyalty and the customer's
experience.
One telecom company I workedfor in a particular department.
We were rolling out buy onlinepick up at store and to do that
you needed everybody on board.
You needed the e-commerce teamto understand that was the
experience and help build that.
You needed IT to create thatinfrastructure.
You needed the retail store tounderstand that people are going
(21:28):
to come and want their productvery quickly and easily.
There were so many differentaspects marketing and
communications to have the rightcontent on the website.
So what happened was when werolled it out, it all worked
seamlessly.
But customers were frustratedbecause when they went to the
retail store they had to wait ona line, especially when there
(21:52):
was, like an iconic iPhonelaunch, and so they're waiting
on line.
That should be a different linethan when you're going to go
into the store and shop versuspick up.
Priscilla (22:02):
You already paid you want to get in and out.
Yeah, I think we've all been inthat situation, and so that's
such a good example.
Stacy (22:09):
Yeah, yes, so by understanding and actually
getting the voice feedback ofthe customer, we were able to
identify that there was a painpoint, that there wasn't a
separate queue for those buyonline pick up at store
customers, that we can then goinstitute that and also help the
(22:30):
retailer understand that youknow who's coming to your store.
You know that they bought thisiPhone.
You can actually bring out someaccessories and show them what
they might want when they'repicking up their new device.
You could actually be helpfulthat you know that they're going
to need to transfer certaindata on their old phone to their
(22:53):
new phone and use that as acustomer relationship
opportunity.
Yeah, so there's so much therein understanding that design of
experience across theorganization and ways that you
can be supportive and helpfulduring that transaction and
post-transaction.
Priscilla (23:13):
Yeah, that's such a good example of how that can all
work together and how insightsfrom different departments can
really impact the customer'sexperience there in the store.
And it's all these situationswhere there's so much to be
gained from being incommunication with other people
like and understanding theirinsights and understanding their
perspective, because we alllook at the customer's
(23:34):
experience from a differentperspective, and so bringing
everyone together and saying,hey, you're not seeing this from
your side, but I can see itfrom my side, so I'm going to
share with you and let thatimpact how you do your work
really creates this cohesion inyour company, and you were
talking about it happening in areal in-person experience, but
it can happen when you're fullyonline or when your customer is
(23:56):
in a product Like.
So for us, we have a hostingservice, so they're using our
software and the customersupport team sees it from one
perspective and the developerssee it from another perspective,
and our communication about ourdifferent perspectives can
really have a huge positiveimpact on the way the customer
is experiencing the product.
(24:17):
And so I think it really comesback to journey mapping being
this really cool way tofacilitate that communication
and make it really clear toeveryone in the company as a
whole.
Stacy (24:29):
Yes, and that's why the ability to do journey mapping
solves so many challenges.
One is it creates theconnection.
It breaks the company silos andhelps everybody understand how
they own, they have a piece ofcustomer experience, whether the
back office or the front line.
(24:49):
That's so important, number one.
Number two it's helping youreally identify what your
customers and clients reallyneed and expect and that you can
deliver.
You can't do that otherwise.
You can't do that otherwise andtherefore I really encourage,
(25:11):
whether you are a big company toa midsize, small company, that
you really design the experienceintentionally.
And these are the reasons.
Priscilla (25:18):
Yeah, ok so, speaking about like company size, one of
the things we really want to dowith this podcast is make sure
that people have theseactionable tips, they can take
back, these actual steps thatthey can do tomorrow to start
putting this into place.
So what would you recommendspecifically for those smaller
teams that maybe don't have somuch of the structure built in,
because this can feel a bitoverwhelming.
(25:39):
I would imagine to hear thisand be like, oh gosh, how am I
going to do this, how am I goingto map this all out?
Or how am I going to do this,how am I going to map this all
out?
Or how am I going to geteveryone on board for this?
What would you recommend for asmaller team to kind of take
that first step tomorrow?
Stacy (25:53):
To start building out the journey.
So, first of all, I do have afree template on my website.
There's two options you can doit yourself, yeah, and with some
coaching involved.
Or, you know, bring me intoyour company and plan out a half
a day and we can literally gothrough it so that it jumpstarts
your efforts.
Priscilla (26:13):
Yeah, that's great.
If you're listening to this,you know now, stacey, she can
help you do it.
You mentioned one thing that Ikind of want to touch on about
how sometimes, when you'remapping out this journey, you'll
bring in the customerthemselves and talk to them
directly about it.
How do you actually recommenddoing that?
Like, what kind of ways do youconnect with the customer,
(26:33):
especially if you're kind oflike Buzzsprout or some of our
listeners, where you aren'tactually seeing a customer
face-to-face or really talkingto them virtually that often?
How would you recommend youkind of get that information
from a customer?
Stacy (26:46):
I'm glad you brought that up because I want to make sure
listeners understand that ifyou're a remote organization and
there's no real conference room, that's okay.
Yeah, you can do this virtually, it's just the human in the
room is beneficial.
As far as customers and clientsare concerned.
You have to have a pulse ofwhat's working and what's not.
(27:08):
You need a relationshipconversation so you would
literally take the map and askthem the right questions to
understand how was theonboarding experience?
How is it being a user of theservice?
What are we missing when youget help?
(27:29):
Is it easy or difficult andliterally measure that, Just
like many companies know, netpromoter score and PS the likely
to recommend.
But that's not enough of ameasurement to be actionable.
That's where, again, I'mhelping to design the right
questions to know, to get apulse, a real check on how
you're doing with the rightmetrics, and then you ask your
(27:54):
customers.
If you ask, they'll tell you,yeah, they will Close the loop.
What they tell you.
Make sure you do something withit with the right people, Right
who own those journey points.
Priscilla (28:05):
We live in the world of AI right now.
I mean, everyone is talkingabout AI in so many different
conversations.
Where do you think AI fits intothis journey mapping process?
How do you see people use AI todo this?
Stacy (28:17):
A lot.
I always say that the AI isenabling the human experience
and we're working together.
Jordan (28:25):
It's both and not either or.
Stacy (28:27):
Yeah.
So one of the things I wouldrecommend, before you do a
journey map, is understand thepersona of your buyer, because
who are you designing thejourney for?
You have to know who are thosehumans, unless you have a bot to
bot customer and that doesexist.
(28:48):
But persona development for whois your current buyer?
Who is your?
Maybe you're going into anothersegment that's helpful too, so
AI can really be valuable inpersona development.
Priscilla (29:02):
Yeah
Using AI to be your collectionand aggregator of the voice of
(29:23):
customer, so you understand whatare people saying about you
solicited and not solicited andtherefore you take that into the
design aspects and that'simportant for people to pay
attention.
Using the outside to build whatyou're delivering, what you're
creating, and fix thosedisconnects.
(29:52):
I think that's a really great insight and can be
such an impactful strategy touse in building that brand
loyalty and that experience foryour customers.
So what is like the one maintakeaway that you want people to
remember tomorrow when they'rethinking back on this episode?
Stacy (30:00):
That your customers have a journey with you or without
you, so you might as well designit.
Priscilla (30:04):
There you go, they're going to have a journey, so do
without you, so you might aswell design it.
There you go, they're going tohave a journey, so do you want
to have control over that, or doyou want that to just be fully
up to however they end upinteracting?
I think that's really simpleand clear.
Stacy (30:15):
It's so good.
If you are not intentional tothe design, then if one small
thing goes wrong, they will goto your competitor.
Yeah, they might badmouth youon social media, so you can get
ahead of that.
Priscilla (30:31):
Yes, by mapping out that journey, you can get ahead
of that.
Thank you so much, stacey, Ireally appreciate it.
You know your knowledge aboutjourney mapping does not stop
here with this conversation.
You have a book coming out thatis all about journey mapping,
and so I was doing a littleresearch and looking at the book
and I saw a description that Ikind of wanted to read out,
because I think it really did agood job of laying out the
(30:53):
problem that a lot of companiesrun into.
So I'm going to read this.
It said why do customers leaveor stay with brands?
It's not about superiorproducts or services, ai driven
or increased marketing.
Retention hinges on seamless,trustworthy and efficient
interactions across everytouchpoint.
Too often, companies focus onquick fixes rather than the
(31:14):
broader customer experience,leading to disjointed efforts,
frustrated customers and stalledgrowth.
I thought that that customerretention hinges on the seamless
and the trustworthy experience.
Yeah, I thought that was justreally a great way to say it.
So can you tell us a little bitabout the book and when it's
(31:35):
available, what's in it and howpeople can access it and get it?
Stacy (31:39):
Yes, so it is on presale on Amazon now.
It will be coming out laterthis year.
This is about journeymanagement.
So journey mapping is one part.
It's a tool, it's a techniqueof journey management and
experience management.
So the book is really helpingyou to do it yourself and
(32:02):
understand the fundamentals ofthe why, the how, and it's an
omni-channel viewpoint.
It's the retail, it's yourpartners, it's your employees,
it's your customers.
It's a whole ecosystem that youneed to design for.
So today we talked really moreabout the customer experience.
The book is more of that bigger, broader ecosystem that affects
(32:26):
your company.
Priscilla (32:27):
That's great and we will link to the book in our
description so if it hasn't beenreleased yet, you can go and
pre-save it there.
Otherwise you can go andpurchase it and I really think
it's going to be a greatresource for a lot of companies
who really want to level up thatcustomer experience.
Definitely find that book andlook at that and then reach out
to Stacy.
Another way you can get intouch with Stacy is through her
(32:48):
podcast, which we mentioned atthe beginning of the show, but
she has a fantastic podcastcalled Doing CX Right.
You want to tell us a littlebit about what you do on that
podcast and then how people canfind that show.
Stacy (32:58):
Yes, so a lot of free resources and content are on my
website, doingcxright dot com.
That's where you'll find myblog articles.
My newsletter is reallyvaluable, giving you how-to tips
to create customer retention,revenue, a better reputation and
(33:20):
referrals, and so I'm givingyou the how-to.
Journey mapping is a technique.
My show is weekly talking aboutthis, bringing on leaders from
different companies and authorsand everybody who shares that
passion, because we all aremaking a difference.
There's a movement happening.
Jordan (33:41):
What an incredible resource.
Priscilla (33:43):
Yeah, and I will say about Stacy's episodes they are
30 minutes, they're nice andtight.
They bring a ton of really goodactionable tips for you.
So, if you're like, I'm reallytrying to level up my game when
it comes to anything in customerexperience so it might be how
to use AI to make your servicebetter, or it might be about
(34:03):
customer feedback.
She is so I mean, you have, Ithink, like over 150 episodes at
this point.
There's so much, and they'resuccinct and really, really
helpful.
So I highly recommend you golisten to some.
Sometimes I will find myself insituations where I'm trying to
work on a project and I'm likeman, I just wish I could listen
to someone else talk about thisand get a little bit of an
(34:25):
outside perspective, and thatwill help me as I go and try to
solve this problem.
I guarantee you you can searchher episodes and you will find
one that aligns with the problemthat you're trying to solve and
you'll get some really helpfulinsight into how to solve it for
yourself, including you on myshow.
So check that out too.
Yes, that was really fun.
(34:45):
I got to join you for a showabout what it means to be
actually happy to help customersand it was really.
It was really fun to talk withyou about it.
So thank you so much for comingon, stacey.
This was really fun.
I feel like I've learned a lotabout journey mapping and I'm
really excited to figure out howwe at Buzzsprout can start
using that more intentionally inour processes to impact our
customers' experience, and Ihope for anyone listening that
(35:07):
this has inspired you to alsostart taking the next steps on
creating this experience andbeing really intentional about
it and reach out to Stacy if youhave any questions or if you
want her to come and help yourcompany.
Reach out to her.
She would love to do that andI'm sure you would have an
incredible impact on that.
So thanks so much for joiningus today.
Thank you.
(35:33):
Well, it's time for Support inReal Life, which is our segment
where we talk about real lifesupport experiences and Jordan.
I wanted to bring to the tablejust some like positive support
moments I've seen over the lastcouple weeks.
I love it.
Yeah, I feel like I've seenthis on social media, probably
like in the last month I've seenthis two or three times where
someone that either I follow onsocial media or a friend of mine
(35:55):
has had a pet pass away, whichis always really sad and really
hard.
Yeah, and both of these twosituations that I'm thinking
about, they talked about howthey had like a pet food
delivery service and so they gotlike one more order.
You know, in the midst offiguring out and grieving over
the loss of your pet, you mightforget to turn off that service,
(36:16):
and so then they're gettinglike one more order.
Yeah, and that's really hard.
And so then they have to reachout to the customer support team
to cancel, to the customersupport team to cancel.
And in both of these experiencesone of them was with the
farmer's dog and the woman whosedog had died she said that she
had forgotten to cancel it.
They sent her the next month offood and she reached out and
said, hey, what should I do withthis food?
(36:37):
Like I don't need a refund, butmy dog died, I need to cancel
this and I don't know what to dowith all of this food.
And the customer support personwrote back, refunded their
order with no questions, wasvery empathetic about the loss
of their dog and grieving that,and then gave them very detailed
instructions about how tofreeze the food so that it could
(36:58):
be used for a future dog ifthey get another dog or some
like resources and differentlike animal shelters in the area
that they could gift the foodto if they wanted to go that
route.
Wow, so they did the researchfor them.
Yeah, oh my gosh and I thoughtthat was such a great experience
.
And then the other story wasabout Chewy and how they
(37:19):
canceled their subscription ortheir you know next order and
then Chewy sent them flowers totheir home as a way to console
them after this, like grief andlosing their pet.
So both of those I ran acrosson social media, yeah, and they
really impacted me as a personwho works in customer support.
I don't have a dog.
I know what it's like to love adog, but I don't have one
(37:42):
personally, so that part didn'teven like hit me.
The same way, but just seeing acustomer support representative
take the time to want topositively impact their
customers, even though in bothof these situations they're not
currently customers.
Both of them were cancelingtheir service, yeah, and so I
think that, you know, I thoughtit would be cool for our support
(38:03):
in real life segment today tokind of highlight that and how
those stories and sharing thosestories can really inspire us as
customer support professionals.
Yeah, to go that extra milenext time we're in a situation
like that with a customer.
I know that's how I felt was.
I want to be the kind of personthat positively impacts the
next customer that we have thatwrites in in a situation that's
(38:27):
somewhat similar.
So you know we're working inpodcasting, not in dog food, but
you still have the ability topositively impact your
customer's day.
So, okay, all of this to say, Ithought it would be cool for us
to kind of put the word out toall of our listeners that if
that is something that you arealso inspired by to hear those
kind of really awesome customerexperience stories I want you to
(38:49):
tap the link in our show noteswhich is, it'll say, like send a
text, yeah, and I want you totext us and write us a story
that you have experienced.
Or maybe it's a personalexperience you had with a
customer support team, or maybeit's something you saw as a
third party, or maybe you werethe customer support team, or
maybe it's something you saw asa third party, or maybe you were
the customer support person andyou gave a really great
experience to your customer.
(39:09):
Yeah, whatever that story is, Iwant you to take a second,
write it out.
It doesn't have to be superlong and detailed, but send it
in to us and we're going to readsome of those on future
episodes of the show and I thinkit will really be a great way
for us to kind of encourage eachother and inspire each other to
really take this job that weget to do and, like, level up
(39:31):
those standards of thatone-on-one experience with your
customer.
Jordan (39:35):
Yes, my daughter's first grade teacher calls this
filling your bucket.
Priscilla (39:39):
Oh, I love it.
Jordan (39:39):
I know you just have these like positive things,
because throughout the day,there's little things that make
water like spill out of yourbucket and then, before you know
it, your bucket's empty andyou're feeling sad, and so
sometimes, when you pour goodenergy into things, it can
really fill your bucket.
Yeah, so this is like, yeah,what kind of stories just fill
your bucket.
Priscilla (40:00):
I love it.
You know we always start ourepisodes off with who made your
day recently, like who made yourday better, and so I kind of
like I want to hear from ourlisteners who made your day
better, oh yeah.
So share those stories with us.
I want to read them out onfuture episodes.
I want to shout out our amazinglisteners who are listening to
these episodes, and so if youwould share those with us, I
(40:22):
would love, I'd love, love, loveto share those publicly in our
next episode.
What a great idea.
Love it, yeah.
So tap the text, the show link,yep, and send those in and we
will gather them up and sharethem.
So if you have a question or asupport story or situation, like
we were just talking about, youcan email us at happy to help
at buzzsproutcom or use thattext, the show button, and text
(40:43):
us directly and then we mightanswer your question on a future
episode or share your story.
As always, if you like thisepisode, please share it with
someone who works in customersupport and leave a review on
Apple Podcasts.
It's always great hanging outwith you, jordan.
It was great learning fromStacy.
I'm really excited for everyoneto hear this episode and let
this really impact the way thatthey craft that experience for
(41:05):
their customers using journeymapping.
Thank you all so much forlistening.
Now go and make someone's day.
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people atBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, Priscilla Brooke.
Today we're entering the worldof journey mapping.
The customer's experience ismore than just their
interactions with your supportteam.
So today we're discussing whatjourney mapping is, how it can
impact your product and customerexperience, and some strategies
for doing it successfully.
(00:21):
Thanks for joining us.
Let's get into it.
I am really excited todaybecause we have a wonderful
guest with us to introduce us tothe world of journey mapping,
which is something I don't have.
A ton of experience with,Jordan.
Have you ever heard of journeymapping?
Jordan (00:37):
No, I've never heard of this.
Priscilla (00:39):
Yeah, I feel like I've started to hear about it in
the last couple months, but thefact that I've been working in
customer experience for almost adecade and haven't really heard
about before, that isinteresting.
So I'm excited because todayjoining us is Stacy Sherman.
Stacy has dedicated 25 years tocreating authentic connections
between people and brands.
(00:59):
She is a published author, akeynote speaker and the host of
the podcast Doing CX Right.
She's also the founder of DoingCX Right Consultancy, where she
helps companies andprofessionals improve their
customers' experience.
Thanks for joining us today,Stacy.
Stacy (01:14):
Thank you for having me.
Priscilla (01:15):
Yeah, this is really fun.
This is like your expertise,and so I'm really really pumped
for you to join us and talk tous and just share with our
listeners all of your amazinginsights, you know what I'm
really happy toOh, there we go.
I love it.
I love it.
It's funny.
When we started talking aboutHappy to Help is the possible
name, I was like, oh, I hope itjust becomes like part of the
(01:36):
vernacular and like theconversation.
So it's really fun.
I love it when people say I'mhappy to be here, I'm happy to
help.
Before we jump into it.
We always like to start ourepisodes with kind of like a
surge of positivity and shoutout someone in the world of CX
or just in your world who hasmade your day better, because we
have such a great opportunityand customer support to
(01:56):
positively impact people's days.
Stacy (01:59):
I'd say my husband.
Great answer ,.
Great answer.
Yeah, well, especially becauseI did not have any role models
growing up in the area ofmarriage.
I come from a divorced family,so going on 30 years this year
is a big deal.
Yeah, and I answer that with myhusband because we've had a big
(02:23):
pivot in our lives, and that isI've been in the corporate
world for 25 years and now anentrepreneur, and so without him
going on this journey with meand every day supporting that, I
just I'm speechless, as you cantell.
Priscilla (02:39):
Yeah, that's great.
I love that answer.
It's so important to havesomeone in your corner who's
cheering you on when you'redoing something new, especially.
But, even when you're doingthings over time and it becomes,
you know, sometimes routine oryou're like is this the place
I'm supposed to be?
Is this what I'm supposed to bedoing?
To have someone in your cornerReally encouraging you, that's
so wonderful.
And 30 years Congratulations,that's amazing.
Stacy (03:02):
It really is.
I don't take it for granted.
Congratulations, that's amazing.
It really is.
I don't take it for granted.
Yeah, but life is aboutexperiences, which is why I talk
about it personally andprofessionally.
Priscilla (03:11):
Yeah, it's all made up of experiences in the
professional world and in thepersonal world.
I love it.
What an amazing answer.
It really is an amazing answer.
So for our listeners who arenot familiar with the work you
do, can you share a little bitmore about your extensive
background in journey mapping,but in customer experience, and
then also just what you loveabout working in customer CF?
Stacy (03:31):
Yes.
So I grew up in marketing andsales and I fell into customer
experience, and what I mean bythat is there became this moment
, this choice, when I wasworking in corporate that dude,
I want to continue the marketingand promoting and selling, or
(03:52):
did I want to go where it'sactually designing the
experiences that people havewith brands, both the customer
and client and equally importantare the employees, the
workforce that deliver thatexperience and so I decided to
pivot and really lean into thatexperience management.
(04:15):
Journey mapping is a tool, it'sa framework, it's a way to
design to make sure that you'rereally meeting the needs and
impacting lives.
My background, though, isreally that blend of meeting
needs and stopping loss losingcustomers, losing employees,
(04:36):
losing friendships, losing jobsand so I want to stop the loss.
Priscilla (04:42):
Yeah, life is too short, right, we got to move
back to the enjoyable part of itand stop the loss.
I love that.
So in your podcast Doing CXRight, which is a great podcast,
and everyone who's listening tothis should go and listen to
that podcast because it's reallyfantastic yes, you always ask
your listeners to go back and togive you some kind of advice
(05:03):
that they would give themselvesas a 20-year-old starting in the
corporate world.
So I figured, I'd flip thataround and ask you what advice
would you give yourself?
Stacy (05:11):
Yeah.
So my question is that, but notpertaining to the corporate
world.
It is about your younger,20-year-old self, based on what
you know now.
What would you tell yourselfthen?
So for me to answer that, mybelief is to take more risks.
Cross the street by myselfearlier, let go of the railing
(05:32):
earlier because I was afraid tofall, I was afraid to get lost
and therefore I didn't go manyplaces.
I stayed around my neighborhoodand now I take more chances.
I go on more roller coasterrides, so much more because it's
(05:52):
blue sky and not being afraidto fail.
Priscilla (06:11):
Yeah, I mean, there is so much that can be learned
in the midst of failing or notdoing the thing exactly how you
expected it would turn out, andso I think that's such good
advice for anyone really at anystage in life corporate, not
corporate whatever you're doing,it's okay to fail, it's okay to
give it a shot, and if itdoesn't work out, you've learned
from it and you could trysomething new.
Stacy (06:33):
Yes, and I have to say my real truth, because podcasting
is a love of mine, it's a drugof choice.
And one thing about this wholefear of failing is that I didn't
take my microphone out of thebox for six months.
Oh wow, because I was afraid tostart podcasting.
(06:55):
I was afraid Do I have theright microphone?
Do I know this?
Do I have that?
And so if you are an aspiringpodcaster or entrepreneur or
whatever it is, take the mic outof the box.
Priscilla (07:07):
Yeah, I love it.
That's so good.
It's not a unique experience toyou.
So many podcasters specificallyhave a hard time with that
first episode, getting the micout of the box, setting it up.
And you're right, just do it.
Start doing it and you willfigure it out as you go.
So let's get into journeymapping.
Will figure it out as you go.
So let's get into journeymapping.
Like I said, this is pretty newto me as a technique to use in
(07:28):
customer support or just inbrand loyalty with your
customers and your customerexperience, but you have been
doing this for a while and youhave a ton of information and
insight into how to do thisreally well.
So, to just start off, foranyone who doesn't know what
journey mapping is maybe it'sthe first time they're hearing
this term Can you define whatjourney mapping is and some of
(07:50):
those phases that a customermight go through during their
journey?
Stacy (07:55):
Yes, absolutely so at high level.
A customer journey is literallythose micro moments that you
experience with a brand, and soit's the intentionality to map
that out, and you start firstwith your internal teams how a
customer, a client, a prospectwill learn that you exist.
(08:18):
So that's typically marketing.
It's the awareness and learnbeginning stage.
Then the buying experience howwill they buy what you're
offering?
Is it e-commerce?
Is it a retail store?
Is it a salesperson comes toyou directly?
How will you get what youbought?
Is it shipping?
(08:38):
Again, do you have to go pickit up?
So the learn, buy, get use, payand get help.
And get help is what we know ascustomer service, and it's an
essential part of the customerexperience.
But it's not the same.
Customer service and customerexperience are not the same
(08:59):
thing, and that's where peoplemake a mistake, because customer
service and customer support isa important part of the journey
.
It is not the whole journey.
Priscilla (09:11):
And one of the things that you say a lot is that
everyone has a customerexperience role.
You talk about that a littlebit, about how everyone can have
a part of that experience, notcan must.
Stacy (09:24):
Must.
Yeah, because here's the thingIf marketing is coming out with
these great promotionalcampaigns, if all the people in
that journey are not at thetable and understanding what's
marketing doing, how are peoplegoing to get the offer?
How are they going to get, ifthere's an issue with the
(09:45):
billing get that support?
If the contact center andcustomer success and service
team don't know about that offer.
The customer calls in and sayswhere's that promotion?
It's not working.
And the care team says I'm sosorry, I don't even know what
you're talking about.
Right, they leave.
Yeah, so everybody needs to bepart of the exercise of
(10:07):
designing the experience, thecommunication flow.
How does it communicate throughthe journey?
What's the technology usedthrough the journey?
Where's the AI versus the human?
And then you don't stop there.
You then go to real customersand clients and ask them what
you design, does it really meetyour needs?
(10:29):
If we offer a certain way foryou to pay your bill, but that's
not helpful to them, you'remissing, there's a gap.
You need to know that and goback to your internal teams and
say we've got to alter this.
Priscilla (10:42):
Yeah, so it's clear, just hearing you talk about it,
that you are very passionateabout this journey mapping
strategy.
Yeah, what got you into journeymapping in the first place?
Like when did you first learnabout it, and where is all this
passion come from?
Stacy (10:56):
Yeah.
So two reasons.
One, as a consumer of brands,like you, I just have no
tolerance when brands make it sodifficult to get help to buy
the friction.
There's no reason for it.
So personally, as a consumer, Iget so heated when some
(11:17):
company's wasting my time orcreating that effort so I want
to do something about it.
And then, professionally, thatwas the role that when I was in
a couple of companies ago, theyjust threw me that ball and they
said Stacy, you own customerexperience on top of the
marketing efforts.
And I said, oh well, what doesthat mean?
(11:37):
And they said you go figure itout.
And so the good news is Ifigure everything out and the
bad news is I didn't like thatboss in the moment.
Priscilla (11:49):
It's healthy to be able to separate those two
things, to say I love this thing, I love figuring that out, but
the place I'm doing it is notideal, and sometimes I think
it's hard to separate those twothings, and so kudos to you for
separating it and stayingpassionate about the thing
you're passionate about and notletting the organization you're
in kind of affect that.
Stacy (12:10):
It became an opportunity that I saw every company,
regardless of size andregardless of product and
service, that this ability tomap out the customer journey,
the client experience.
It can start on the back of anapkin or whiteboard to then
using those sophisticated tools.
(12:31):
So I want people listening tounderstand that don't get
nervous about the tech stack andhow you do it, really go old
school and I'm happy to helpliterally.
Priscilla (12:46):
So, like you were just talking about customer
support, interactions are partof the journey, but they're not
the whole journey.
So you talked a little bitabout how each department will
have a connection with this mapover time, but who owns it?
Like, where would you put theownership of the customer
journey mapping?
Stacy (13:04):
Companies that have a customer experience manager or
leader or team.
They typically are the Elmer'sglue of the company.
Yeah, and that was the role Iplayed.
If you don't have that role inyour company, well come talk to
me, because you need it, and ifyou don't, then someone in the
(13:26):
organization really needs totake that responsibility and it
needs to be at the executivelevel, so that it becomes a
priority for every departmentand that people are measured in
the same way, because if youdon't have those unified
customer goals, no one cares andit becomes the blame game.
Priscilla (13:46):
Yeah, which is a dangerous game to play.
Yes, you were talking aboutthat communication that's
necessary between thesedifferent departments and how
having that strong communicationis really necessary in order to
make an actual, accuratejourney map of the customer's
experience.
Accurate journey map of thecustomer's experience what kind
(14:08):
of strategies or advice do youhave for companies that maybe
don't have very goodcommunication there?
Let's say that someone'slistening to this who's in the
customer service world andthey're like I really think we
need to have more cohesion here.
What would you say to thatperson to try to get that
communication to be stronger sothat they can start mapping out
that journey a little better?
Stacy (14:31):
Yeah, a couple answers.
So one is, if you're in acustomer service and support
success role number one goshadow other people in other
departments.
Learn what it's like in theirshoes and then connect the dots
to how it impacts your team.
Don't wait for a formal program.
Number two invite those peopleto your team meetings to listen
(14:54):
in on customer or client callsso they understand your space in
the big picture.
I would also set up agovernance where people come
together and literally solutionthe problems you hear on the
front line of the complaints,the frictions and the good
points to celebrate.
(15:15):
I would also recommend, if wejust laser in the customer
service, the customer caredepartment, there is a journey
within that entire roleInteresting, so you can now go
into that whole micro moment ofwhat's it like to be the caller,
(15:37):
what's it like to be the onechatting, and how have you
designed that experience to be.
For example, if someone needsto call for help, well, what is
the 800 number experience?
What do they hear?
What are the prompts?
Is it easy or difficult?
Do they have to repeatthemselves when they get to a
(15:59):
human?
Do they get to a human?
Yeah, what's it like for thehuman who's trying to service
that customer or person callingin?
How many systems do they haveto go through?
Is the content updated to beable to provide the support?
There's a whole lot of momentsof truth, yeah.
So you map that, you designthat, you optimize that, but you
(16:23):
can't do it just internally.
You've got to bring thecustomer to the table so that
it's a co-design andoptimization and measurement of
just even in the customerservice realm.
Priscilla (16:35):
Yeah.
So let me ask you when I wasfirst introduced to journey
mapping, I really didn't knowwhat the final result looked
like, whether it was a writtenexplanation of the journey or
whether it was more of a graphickind of view.
Jordan (16:48):
That's what I'm picturing is like an infographic
, yeah.
Priscilla (16:51):
So, and I think over the last couple of months,
learning more about it is moreof a visual type of thing.
Can you tell us a little bitmore what that like final
product looks?
Stacy (16:59):
like Absolutely.
So what I do coming intocompanies is do these workshops
where there is a template ofgoing through the journey.
It can be the entire experience.
If I can get everybody fromdifferent departments together,
ideally.
And if I come into just onedepartment, it would be
workshopping that organizationand what they've designed or
(17:24):
sometimes don't design.
It's just kind of afree-for-all.
We do map out on paper and helpevery team member connect the
dots to see oh, that's your role, the domino effect that
everybody can now see.
Oh, that's why you always askme for that information, oh,
that's why you need this from me.
(17:45):
And so everybody then sees, notthat they're all going to do
every job, but they understandand can be accountable and see
where the gaps that nobody iscommunicating to fix that.
So it is visual and then youcan overlay the data thereafter.
Priscilla (18:03):
That makes me excited because I love making things
look nice.
That's like one of my strengths, and so the idea of like, oh,
getting to figure out how tographically make it look really
cool, like that, makes meexcited about journey mapping,
for sure.
Stacy (18:16):
Yeah, no, and it's an important point here, because
the journey map is not wall artRight.
A lot of times people will justtake the journey due to the
exercise and then it stays inthe desk, and that's where
companies go wrong, because thenyou've got to go put it into
action any good, and I thinkthere's also.
Priscilla (18:47):
I would assume that there's an aspect of updating it
too.
Maybe as your product changesor as you learn more about your
customers and their experiences,you will update that journey
map over time 100%.
Stacy (18:55):
And not only that your customer, your base, their needs
are changing in this fast-pacedtech world, but you're also
deploying technology, and that'spart of the exercise.
Where, in this journey, is thetechnology, the AI, the one
delivering the experience,versus the human that has to be
(19:17):
on the map?
Priscilla (19:18):
Yeah, so how do you see journey mapping influence,
the day-to-day work at a company?
So the day-to-day, like youwere just talking about those
changes, how do you see thatreally affecting product
development and customer supportand these different areas that
are mapping it out?
Stacy (19:34):
Well, a lot of times.
I like that you brought upproduct development, because
many times, product developmentteams will develop a product or
a new feature offer, throw itout and hope it sticks, and
that's wasted time, money,effort.
Instead, you need to get thecustomer feedback early in this
journey that they're designing,and so that's why it's so
(19:56):
important that it's an iterativeprocess, day-to-day.
Where this comes into play iswhat I would call the voice of
customer VOC, and that isgetting the voice of your
customers, your clients,intentionally in structured and
unstructured ways, and what thatmeans is when you have your
(20:18):
journey, you actually are payingattention to those micro
moments that either you'regetting in a survey or you're
getting on social media becausepeople are talking about your
brand, or you're getting it inyour website contact form, that
people are filling out Ratingsand review sites.
There's so much informationthat people are giving you.
(20:40):
Are you paying attention andare you using it to optimize the
journey you've created?
Priscilla (20:47):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
You know you've worked with alot of different people and
companies on journey mapping andsetting this up for them and
your workshops.
Do you have any success storiesthat you can share with us of
companies that really haveimplemented this and it's had a
huge impact on the brand loyaltyand the customer's experience?
Stacy (21:07):
huge impact on the brand loyalty and the customer's
experience.
One telecom company I workedfor in a particular department.
We were rolling out buy onlinepick up at store and to do that
you needed everybody on board.
You needed the e-commerce teamto understand that was the
experience and help build that.
You needed IT to create thatinfrastructure.
You needed the retail store tounderstand that people are going
(21:28):
to come and want their productvery quickly and easily.
There were so many differentaspects marketing and
communications to have the rightcontent on the website.
So what happened was when werolled it out, it all worked
seamlessly.
But customers were frustratedbecause when they went to the
retail store they had to wait ona line, especially when there
(21:52):
was, like an iconic iPhonelaunch, and so they're waiting
on line.
That should be a different linethan when you're going to go
into the store and shop versuspick up.
Priscilla (22:02):
You already paid you want to get in and out.
Yeah, I think we've all been inthat situation, and so that's
such a good example.
Stacy (22:09):
Yeah, yes, so by understanding and actually
getting the voice feedback ofthe customer, we were able to
identify that there was a painpoint, that there wasn't a
separate queue for those buyonline pick up at store
customers, that we can then goinstitute that and also help the
(22:30):
retailer understand that youknow who's coming to your store.
You know that they bought thisiPhone.
You can actually bring out someaccessories and show them what
they might want when they'repicking up their new device.
You could actually be helpfulthat you know that they're going
to need to transfer certaindata on their old phone to their
(22:53):
new phone and use that as acustomer relationship
opportunity.
Yeah, so there's so much therein understanding that design of
experience across theorganization and ways that you
can be supportive and helpfulduring that transaction and
post-transaction.
Priscilla (23:13):
Yeah, that's such a good example of how that can all
work together and how insightsfrom different departments can
really impact the customer'sexperience there in the store.
And it's all these situationswhere there's so much to be
gained from being incommunication with other people
like and understanding theirinsights and understanding their
perspective, because we alllook at the customer's
(23:34):
experience from a differentperspective, and so bringing
everyone together and saying,hey, you're not seeing this from
your side, but I can see itfrom my side, so I'm going to
share with you and let thatimpact how you do your work
really creates this cohesion inyour company, and you were
talking about it happening in areal in-person experience, but
it can happen when you're fullyonline or when your customer is
(23:56):
in a product Like.
So for us, we have a hostingservice, so they're using our
software and the customersupport team sees it from one
perspective and the developerssee it from another perspective,
and our communication about ourdifferent perspectives can
really have a huge positiveimpact on the way the customer
is experiencing the product.
(24:17):
And so I think it really comesback to journey mapping being
this really cool way tofacilitate that communication
and make it really clear toeveryone in the company as a
whole.
Stacy (24:29):
Yes, and that's why the ability to do journey mapping
solves so many challenges.
One is it creates theconnection.
It breaks the company silos andhelps everybody understand how
they own, they have a piece ofcustomer experience, whether the
back office or the front line.
(24:49):
That's so important, number one.
Number two it's helping youreally identify what your
customers and clients reallyneed and expect and that you can
deliver.
You can't do that otherwise.
You can't do that otherwise andtherefore I really encourage,
(25:11):
whether you are a big company toa midsize, small company, that
you really design the experienceintentionally.
And these are the reasons.
Priscilla (25:18):
Yeah, ok so, speaking about like company size, one of
the things we really want to dowith this podcast is make sure
that people have theseactionable tips, they can take
back, these actual steps thatthey can do tomorrow to start
putting this into place.
So what would you recommendspecifically for those smaller
teams that maybe don't have somuch of the structure built in,
because this can feel a bitoverwhelming.
(25:39):
I would imagine to hear thisand be like, oh gosh, how am I
going to do this, how am I goingto map this all out?
Or how am I going to do this,how am I going to map this all
out?
Or how am I going to geteveryone on board for this?
What would you recommend for asmaller team to kind of take
that first step tomorrow?
Stacy (25:53):
To start building out the journey.
So, first of all, I do have afree template on my website.
There's two options you can doit yourself, yeah, and with some
coaching involved.
Or, you know, bring me intoyour company and plan out a half
a day and we can literally gothrough it so that it jumpstarts
your efforts.
Priscilla (26:13):
Yeah, that's great.
If you're listening to this,you know now, stacey, she can
help you do it.
You mentioned one thing that Ikind of want to touch on about
how sometimes, when you'remapping out this journey, you'll
bring in the customerthemselves and talk to them
directly about it.
How do you actually recommenddoing that?
Like, what kind of ways do youconnect with the customer,
(26:33):
especially if you're kind oflike Buzzsprout or some of our
listeners, where you aren'tactually seeing a customer
face-to-face or really talkingto them virtually that often?
How would you recommend youkind of get that information
from a customer?
Stacy (26:46):
I'm glad you brought that up because I want to make sure
listeners understand that ifyou're a remote organization and
there's no real conference room, that's okay.
Yeah, you can do this virtually, it's just the human in the
room is beneficial.
As far as customers and clientsare concerned.
You have to have a pulse ofwhat's working and what's not.
(27:08):
You need a relationshipconversation so you would
literally take the map and askthem the right questions to
understand how was theonboarding experience?
How is it being a user of theservice?
What are we missing when youget help?
(27:29):
Is it easy or difficult andliterally measure that, Just
like many companies know, netpromoter score and PS the likely
to recommend.
But that's not enough of ameasurement to be actionable.
That's where, again, I'mhelping to design the right
questions to know, to get apulse, a real check on how
you're doing with the rightmetrics, and then you ask your
(27:54):
customers.
If you ask, they'll tell you,yeah, they will Close the loop.
What they tell you.
Make sure you do something withit with the right people, Right
who own those journey points.
Priscilla (28:05):
We live in the world of AI right now.
I mean, everyone is talkingabout AI in so many different
conversations.
Where do you think AI fits intothis journey mapping process?
How do you see people use AI todo this?
Stacy (28:17):
A lot.
I always say that the AI isenabling the human experience
and we're working together.
Jordan (28:25):
It's both and not either or.
Stacy (28:27):
Yeah.
So one of the things I wouldrecommend, before you do a
journey map, is understand thepersona of your buyer, because
who are you designing thejourney for?
You have to know who are thosehumans, unless you have a bot to
bot customer and that doesexist.
(28:48):
But persona development for whois your current buyer?
Who is your?
Maybe you're going into anothersegment that's helpful too, so
AI can really be valuable inpersona development.
Priscilla (29:02):
Yeah
Using AI to be your collectionand aggregator of the voice of
(29:23):
customer, so you understand whatare people saying about you
solicited and not solicited andtherefore you take that into the
design aspects and that'simportant for people to pay
attention.
Using the outside to build whatyou're delivering, what you're
creating, and fix thosedisconnects.
(29:52):
I think that's a really great insight and can be
such an impactful strategy touse in building that brand
loyalty and that experience foryour customers.
So what is like the one maintakeaway that you want people to
remember tomorrow when they'rethinking back on this episode?
Stacy (30:00):
That your customers have a journey with you or without
you, so you might as well designit.
Priscilla (30:04):
There you go, they're going to have a journey, so do
without you, so you might aswell design it.
There you go, they're going tohave a journey, so do you want
to have control over that, or doyou want that to just be fully
up to however they end upinteracting?
I think that's really simpleand clear.
Stacy (30:15):
It's so good.
If you are not intentional tothe design, then if one small
thing goes wrong, they will goto your competitor.
Yeah, they might badmouth youon social media, so you can get
ahead of that.
Priscilla (30:31):
Yes, by mapping out that journey, you can get ahead
of that.
Thank you so much, stacey, Ireally appreciate it.
You know your knowledge aboutjourney mapping does not stop
here with this conversation.
You have a book coming out thatis all about journey mapping,
and so I was doing a littleresearch and looking at the book
and I saw a description that Ikind of wanted to read out,
because I think it really did agood job of laying out the
(30:53):
problem that a lot of companiesrun into.
So I'm going to read this.
It said why do customers leaveor stay with brands?
It's not about superiorproducts or services, ai driven
or increased marketing.
Retention hinges on seamless,trustworthy and efficient
interactions across everytouchpoint.
Too often, companies focus onquick fixes rather than the
(31:14):
broader customer experience,leading to disjointed efforts,
frustrated customers and stalledgrowth.
I thought that that customerretention hinges on the seamless
and the trustworthy experience.
Yeah, I thought that was justreally a great way to say it.
So can you tell us a little bitabout the book and when it's
(31:35):
available, what's in it and howpeople can access it and get it?
Stacy (31:39):
Yes, so it is on presale on Amazon now.
It will be coming out laterthis year.
This is about journeymanagement.
So journey mapping is one part.
It's a tool, it's a techniqueof journey management and
experience management.
So the book is really helpingyou to do it yourself and
(32:02):
understand the fundamentals ofthe why, the how, and it's an
omni-channel viewpoint.
It's the retail, it's yourpartners, it's your employees,
it's your customers.
It's a whole ecosystem that youneed to design for.
So today we talked really moreabout the customer experience.
The book is more of that bigger, broader ecosystem that affects
(32:26):
your company.
Priscilla (32:27):
That's great and we will link to the book in our
description so if it hasn't beenreleased yet, you can go and
pre-save it there.
Otherwise you can go andpurchase it and I really think
it's going to be a greatresource for a lot of companies
who really want to level up thatcustomer experience.
Definitely find that book andlook at that and then reach out
to Stacy.
Another way you can get intouch with Stacy is through her
(32:48):
podcast, which we mentioned atthe beginning of the show, but
she has a fantastic podcastcalled Doing CX Right.
You want to tell us a littlebit about what you do on that
podcast and then how people canfind that show.
Stacy (32:58):
Yes, so a lot of free resources and content are on my
website, doingcxright dot com.
That's where you'll find myblog articles.
My newsletter is reallyvaluable, giving you how-to tips
to create customer retention,revenue, a better reputation and
(33:20):
referrals, and so I'm givingyou the how-to.
Journey mapping is a technique.
My show is weekly talking aboutthis, bringing on leaders from
different companies and authorsand everybody who shares that
passion, because we all aremaking a difference.
There's a movement happening.
Jordan (33:41):
What an incredible resource.
Priscilla (33:43):
Yeah, and I will say about Stacy's episodes they are
30 minutes, they're nice andtight.
They bring a ton of really goodactionable tips for you.
So, if you're like, I'm reallytrying to level up my game when
it comes to anything in customerexperience so it might be how
to use AI to make your servicebetter, or it might be about
(34:03):
customer feedback.
She is so I mean, you have, Ithink, like over 150 episodes at
this point.
There's so much, and they'resuccinct and really, really
helpful.
So I highly recommend you golisten to some.
Sometimes I will find myself insituations where I'm trying to
work on a project and I'm likeman, I just wish I could listen
to someone else talk about thisand get a little bit of an
(34:25):
outside perspective, and thatwill help me as I go and try to
solve this problem.
I guarantee you you can searchher episodes and you will find
one that aligns with the problemthat you're trying to solve and
you'll get some really helpfulinsight into how to solve it for
yourself, including you on myshow.
So check that out too.
Yes, that was really fun.
(34:45):
I got to join you for a showabout what it means to be
actually happy to help customersand it was really.
It was really fun to talk withyou about it.
So thank you so much for comingon, stacey.
This was really fun.
I feel like I've learned a lotabout journey mapping and I'm
really excited to figure out howwe at Buzzsprout can start
using that more intentionally inour processes to impact our
customers' experience, and Ihope for anyone listening that
(35:07):
this has inspired you to alsostart taking the next steps on
creating this experience andbeing really intentional about
it and reach out to Stacy if youhave any questions or if you
want her to come and help yourcompany.
Reach out to her.
She would love to do that andI'm sure you would have an
incredible impact on that.
So thanks so much for joiningus today.
Thank you.
(35:33):
Well, it's time for Support inReal Life, which is our segment
where we talk about real lifesupport experiences and Jordan.
I wanted to bring to the tablejust some like positive support
moments I've seen over the lastcouple weeks.
I love it.
Yeah, I feel like I've seenthis on social media, probably
like in the last month I've seenthis two or three times where
someone that either I follow onsocial media or a friend of mine
(35:55):
has had a pet pass away, whichis always really sad and really
hard.
Yeah, and both of these twosituations that I'm thinking
about, they talked about howthey had like a pet food
delivery service and so they gotlike one more order.
You know, in the midst offiguring out and grieving over
the loss of your pet, you mightforget to turn off that service,
(36:16):
and so then they're gettinglike one more order.
Yeah, and that's really hard.
And so then they have to reachout to the customer support team
to cancel, to the customersupport team to cancel.
And in both of these experiencesone of them was with the
farmer's dog and the woman whosedog had died she said that she
had forgotten to cancel it.
They sent her the next month offood and she reached out and
said, hey, what should I do withthis food?
(36:37):
Like I don't need a refund, butmy dog died, I need to cancel
this and I don't know what to dowith all of this food.
And the customer support personwrote back, refunded their
order with no questions, wasvery empathetic about the loss
of their dog and grieving that,and then gave them very detailed
instructions about how tofreeze the food so that it could
(36:58):
be used for a future dog ifthey get another dog or some
like resources and differentlike animal shelters in the area
that they could gift the foodto if they wanted to go that
route.
Wow, so they did the researchfor them.
Yeah, oh my gosh and I thoughtthat was such a great experience
.
And then the other story wasabout Chewy and how they
(37:19):
canceled their subscription ortheir you know next order and
then Chewy sent them flowers totheir home as a way to console
them after this, like grief andlosing their pet.
So both of those I ran acrosson social media, yeah, and they
really impacted me as a personwho works in customer support.
I don't have a dog.
I know what it's like to love adog, but I don't have one
(37:42):
personally, so that part didn'teven like hit me.
The same way, but just seeing acustomer support representative
take the time to want topositively impact their
customers, even though in bothof these situations they're not
currently customers.
Both of them were cancelingtheir service, yeah, and so I
think that, you know, I thoughtit would be cool for our support
(38:03):
in real life segment today tokind of highlight that and how
those stories and sharing thosestories can really inspire us as
customer support professionals.
Yeah, to go that extra milenext time we're in a situation
like that with a customer.
I know that's how I felt was.
I want to be the kind of personthat positively impacts the
next customer that we have thatwrites in in a situation that's
(38:27):
somewhat similar.
So you know we're working inpodcasting, not in dog food, but
you still have the ability topositively impact your
customer's day.
So, okay, all of this to say, Ithought it would be cool for us
to kind of put the word out toall of our listeners that if
that is something that you arealso inspired by to hear those
kind of really awesome customerexperience stories I want you to
(38:49):
tap the link in our show noteswhich is, it'll say, like send a
text, yeah, and I want you totext us and write us a story
that you have experienced.
Or maybe it's a personalexperience you had with a
customer support team, or maybeit's something you saw as a
third party, or maybe you werethe customer support team, or
maybe it's something you saw asa third party, or maybe you were
the customer support person andyou gave a really great
experience to your customer.
(39:09):
Yeah, whatever that story is, Iwant you to take a second,
write it out.
It doesn't have to be superlong and detailed, but send it
in to us and we're going to readsome of those on future
episodes of the show and I thinkit will really be a great way
for us to kind of encourage eachother and inspire each other to
really take this job that weget to do and, like, level up
(39:31):
those standards of thatone-on-one experience with your
customer.
Jordan (39:35):
Yes, my daughter's first grade teacher calls this
filling your bucket.
Priscilla (39:39):
Oh, I love it.
Jordan (39:39):
I know you just have these like positive things,
because throughout the day,there's little things that make
water like spill out of yourbucket and then, before you know
it, your bucket's empty andyou're feeling sad, and so
sometimes, when you pour goodenergy into things, it can
really fill your bucket.
Yeah, so this is like, yeah,what kind of stories just fill
your bucket.
Priscilla (40:00):
I love it.
You know we always start ourepisodes off with who made your
day recently, like who made yourday better, and so I kind of
like I want to hear from ourlisteners who made your day
better, oh yeah.
So share those stories with us.
I want to read them out onfuture episodes.
I want to shout out our amazinglisteners who are listening to
these episodes, and so if youwould share those with us, I
(40:22):
would love, I'd love, love, loveto share those publicly in our
next episode.
What a great idea.
Love it, yeah.
So tap the text, the show link,yep, and send those in and we
will gather them up and sharethem.
So if you have a question or asupport story or situation, like
we were just talking about, youcan email us at happy to help
at buzzsproutcom or use thattext, the show button, and text
(40:43):
us directly and then we mightanswer your question on a future
episode or share your story.
As always, if you like thisepisode, please share it with
someone who works in customersupport and leave a review on
Apple Podcasts.
It's always great hanging outwith you, jordan.
It was great learning fromStacy.
I'm really excited for everyoneto hear this episode and let
this really impact the way thatthey craft that experience for
(41:05):
their customers using journeymapping.
Thank you all so much forlistening.
Now go and make someone's day.
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