July 23, 2024 • 55 mins
What if leading with kindness could transform not only your team but also your customer relationships? Join us for our 10th episode, featuring Sarah Caminiti!
With over two decades in customer support, Sarah reveals the secrets behind compassionate leadership and how it fosters remarkable customer experiences and builds brand loyalty.
This episode is packed with practical insights for proactive leadership, the impacts of toxic work environments, and how intentional acts of kindness with your team can create a ripple effect of empathy for your customers.
Listen to Sarah's podcast, Epochal Growth, subscribe to her YouTube channel, and find more info about The Kindness Initiative at Epochal Operations!
Links mentioned in this episode:
We want to hear from you! Share your support stories and questions with us at happytohelp@buzzsprout.com!
To learn more about Buzzsprout visit Buzzsprout.com.
Thanks for listening!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Priscilla (00:00):
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people atBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, Priscilla Brooke.
Today we're talking all aboutkindness and how something as
seemingly simple as kindness canhave a major impact on the way
you lead your support team,create remarkable experiences
for your customers and,ultimately, build brand loyalty.
Thanks for joining us.
(00:20):
Let's get into it.
So today is a big day.
Not only is it our 10th episode, but it's also our first
official guest episode, which isvery exciting.
Yes, so up until now we havehad a lot of awesome guests from
inside of the Buzzsprout worldand of course, we have Jordan
(00:41):
here every week, of course, butthis is the first time that
we've had someone come on theshow that is not on the
Buzzsprout team, and so I'mreally pumped for all of our
listeners, but also just likefor myself to get to learn from
our guest.
So today we have Sarah Caminitijoining us.
I was first introduced to Sarahduring an Elevate CX masterclass
(01:02):
panel that she did a couplemonths ago.
It was a panel about settingboundaries and customer support,
and she just had some reallygreat advice to share, and I
knew I was like, yeah, I want tolearn more from Sarah, but also
I want her to come on thepodcast and I want to learn
about how she leads teams, andso I did some research.
I was digging up on her alittle bit and learned that she
has some awesome opinions onleading with kindness
(01:25):
specifically, and so I'm reallyexcited because today we're
going to talk about leadingteams with kindness and how that
can affect customer support and, ultimately, like, build loyal
customers.
And so Sarah has been in thecustomer support world for over
20 years.
She has experience both leadingsupport teams but also doing
(01:46):
support, you know, directly withcustomers, as anyone who leads
a team probably also hasexperience doing it themselves.
Plus, she has a podcast thatshe launched just recently
called Epical Growth, which isabout customer support and
leadership and so much more.
So thanks for being with us,sarah.
Sarah Caminiti (02:01):
Oh my gosh, I am so, so, so happy to be here.
Priscilla, and I did notrealize I was officially the
first guest outside of theBuzzsprout world.
So I'm honored.
Thank you so much, and I can'twait to hang with you guys for a
little bit.
Priscilla (02:17):
Yeah, I mean it's funny You're outside of the
Buzzsprout world but now you'rekind of in the buzz sprout world
because you recently became abuzz sprout customer.
Oh, I'm in and I feel likewe've known each other forever.
Now.
I know it's been a week, but Imean we spent, right before we
started recording, we spent 10minutes talking about Taylor
Swift.
So I mean, as you should youknow we are we're besties at
(02:40):
this point, which is really fun.
I love it.
Sarah Caminiti (02:42):
No, it's true, and I am loving Buzzsprout.
I made it a point to not justgush about how much I love
Buzzsprout and everything that Iwant to talk about today.
But sometimes you do come acrossa place that you know that the
team feels supported and safe todo their job well, and the way
(03:03):
that that comes across in thecustomer experience end of it is
one that just kind of stickswith you and you remember it and
you recommend people to itbecause of it.
And you're doing that atBuzzsprout and I just want to
celebrate you guys any way thatI can.
Priscilla (03:17):
Well, I appreciate that, but yeah, it's great.
It's been so fun to have youinteracting with our support
team too over the past week.
It's really been great.
So one of the things that I'vestarted doing on this show, as
we kind of kick it off, isasking people who is someone who
made your day recently, likegiving you the opportunity to
shout someone out or to tell usa story where someone made your
day better.
One thing we do on this show iswe finish every episode with
(03:41):
now go and make someone's day.
I think that something weforget in customer support
sometimes is that we have like aton of power to make or break
someone's day, and so if we'rein a place with that power, why
not make someone's day betterevery shot we have?
And so I like the idea ofasking our guests who's someone
that has made your day betterthat you want to shout out on
(04:02):
the podcast as we get started.
Sarah Caminiti (04:04):
Yes, I was so pumped when I saw this question
but also, like, so overwhelmedwith ideas, because I've been
encountering so many wonderfulpeople lately.
And I want to shine some lighton my four-year-old's teacher,
because my four-year-old is atheater kid at heart.
(04:24):
I mean, this child will performNightmare Before Christmas at
the drop of a hat and explain toyou the difference between
Marilyn Manson's version and theoriginal version from the show
by how he does bum, bum, bums.
Jordan (04:35):
Amazing, but so he loves to perform.
Sarah Caminiti (04:37):
And sometimes that means he can be a
four-year-old little boy.
That is disruptive and thispast year he had a hard time
kind of figuring out how tonavigate being in a classroom
while also wanting to makeeverybody laugh.
And he has a new teacher rightnow for the summer program and
she has been making it a pointto recognize all of the little
(05:00):
things that he does to makepeople's days better, and so
he's coming home with all ofthese stickers and he's so proud
of the stickers and she comesout and tells me how great of a
job he's doing and thedifference in who he is based on
these small little things thatthis teacher is doing, these
small little acts of kindnessthat she's doing for my little
(05:22):
boy.
It is making bedtime better, itis making bedtime better, it's
making mornings better, it'smaking playtime better and it
just it touches everything, andso I really, really, really want
to just shed light on the powerof small acts of kindness.
And you don't have to start whenyou're an adult.
You can do it for little peopletoo, because it matters.
Priscilla (05:45):
I love that, I love that I love that so much.
I just think it's such a goodreminder that we as I mean as
customer support specialists,but also just as people have so
much control, like over someoneelse's day and so doing those
little tiny acts of kindness sheprobably doesn't realize how
big of an impact that's havingon your son, but also on you as
(06:05):
the mother who then does bedtime, and so I love that so much.
Hopefully she'll listen to thebeginning of this episode and
hear that, because I think it'sa good encouragement for sure.
So before we start jumping inand talking about kindness and
customer support, I'd love forour listeners to learn a little
bit more about you, sarah.
Do you mind sharing just alittle bit of your background
(06:25):
and how you ended up in theworld of customer support?
Sarah Caminiti (06:28):
Yeah, I'd love to.
So, like you said, I've been inand around support for about 20
years.
I'll be honest, I ran away fromit for so many years, thinking
that this is not a career optionthat I want to pursue.
But then I kept reflectingevery time I would get
frustrated with the jobs that Iwas in.
Like, what is it that is makingme frustrated and what is it
(06:50):
that I love?
Like, what do I keepgravitating towards?
And I keep gravitating towardshelping others succeed.
Right, I'm always happiest whenI'm helping others succeed, and
that's in many different ways.
But at the end of the day,everybody's kind of your
customer whether it's your boss,whether it is an actual
customer, whether it's, I mean,the secretary that's helping you
out like everybody is yourcustomer.
(07:12):
And I realized, okay, what doesthis mean for where I can go
from here?
And I was introduced to SaaSand startups and the way that
they were treating customersupport professionals as
professionals, which I hadn'tseen before.
And I made my way into thisspace and have been here for
about 10 years building supportteams and seeing what's possible
(07:38):
with data and what's possiblewith leadership, but being able
to experiment and fail andsucceed and all of those things
happen in support and it's beena joy to be able to build a
career and then remind peoplehow intense of a career but
rewarding of a career it can be.
Priscilla (07:57):
Yeah, I think that is definitely something that
people don't realize if you'renot working in customer support,
just how intense it can get.
It's intense, it really.
It can go in so many.
Just how intense it can get.
It's intense, it really.
It can go in so many differentdirections, but it can get very
intense.
You're working with alldifferent kinds of people from
all different walks of life.
It's hard, it can be reallyhard to work in customer support
(08:17):
.
Sarah Caminiti (08:17):
And then you have to.
You don't get to recognize anyof it.
You move on Like you have agood interaction with a customer
and then okay, cool, onto thenext thing, moving on to the
next person, onto the next, ontothe next, and you learn things
along the way.
But the celebration is notthere, and that's one of the
reasons why I was excited aboutmy podcast is getting to
celebrate, because I thinkeveryone in any industry doesn't
(08:40):
celebrate the small and the biggood things that we do all the
time enough.
Priscilla (08:45):
We should just be celebrating more in general.
Jordan (08:47):
Yes, yes, we should, yeah, it'd make life better.
Priscilla (08:50):
Yeah, there's a lot of hard stuff in life, but we
don't celebrate the good stuffeither, and so I, yeah, I think
we should be definitelycelebrating more.
So here you are now impartingyour wisdom through the podcast
here on our episode, but alsojust to support teams that
you're working with, and so Ikind of want to dig into what
really brought me to you in thefirst place, which was kindness.
(09:13):
Yeah, people might think aboutkindness as like a really simple
topic, and I mean honestly, itkind of is a pretty simple idea,
but it's really vital for goodleadership and providing
remarkable support.
It's really important for that,and I really think you're the
best person to talk about it.
You know kindness has been abig part of your career, and so
(09:34):
can you give me and thelisteners a little bit of
history about your relationshipwith kindness and what you've
learned and how it's firststarted impacting your career
and how you lead?
Sarah Caminiti (09:43):
Yes, I'm so excited to do this.
I am someone that is driven bythe golden rule, and it wasn't
until recently that I realizedthat that really was like the
driver in every single decisionthat I make, and it's not like
anything super deep.
I just go about things the waythat I would like to have them
(10:05):
done and I want people to bekind to me.
I want people to understand thecontext of what's going on in a
situation or ask me questions.
So why the heck wouldn't I dothat to somebody else?
And so in every job that I wasin and support that's one of the
reasons why I struggled so muchwith wanting to stay in
customer support.
I just kept getting sofrustrated that every boss I had
(10:29):
at some point would do feartactics or micromanaging or
there was an automatic negativeassumption made about something
that I did or something that mycolleagues did, and my heart
would just start racing anytimethey would walk into the room,
and it's one of the reasons Istarted working in support.
(10:50):
It's actually even one of thereasons why my desk isn't facing
the door.
I don't like that feeling ofsomeone's going to come up
behind me see what is going onand then I'll need to explain
myself, for whatever reason.
And just I couldn't figure outwhy.
Like what are we getting out ofthis?
I'm not the only one feelingthis way.
(11:11):
My team feels this way too, andwe're not performing to our
highest capacity because we'restressed and we're panicked and
we're anxious and we don't wantto ask questions.
It didn't make any sense.
That's why I kept leaving andthen I kept seeing the same sort
(11:32):
of thing though everywhere,Like it is just the old way of
leading.
Priscilla (11:34):
I don't even like saying leading it's the old way
of being a boss or managing it'slike yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (11:36):
No trust why you spent so much time trying to
find the candidate.
Why does that change the momentthat they join your team?
It doesn't make any sense to me.
And so, when I started buildingmy own teams, I committed to an
experiment, and the experimentwas hey, I've never seen this,
(11:57):
is there a reason why I've neverseen this before?
And let's try and see whathappens?
For and let's try and see whathappens.
And so I just started leadingmy teams the way I wished that I
had been led.
All of those years I've been incall centers, I've worked retail
general stores, regularcustomer support, you name it.
It's not that I don'tunderstand the realities of the
(12:18):
job.
It's I understand the realitiesso well that it makes no sense
to not be doing it this way.
So when the word kindness comesup, I realize the weight of
that word is a lot.
It means that you valuesomeone's time enough that your
(12:41):
actions are representing yourwords.
It means that you are beingintentional with what you're
putting out there and thoughtfuland purposeful.
And there's so much noise rightnow, or just in general, of
buzzwords and key concepts andall these game-changing
revelations that people arehaving all the time, and then
(13:02):
you start asking questions aboutwhat that means.
And no one's doing anythingabout it.
They're just saying things.
And what does that tell yourteam and your customers?
That tells your team that youdo not value them enough to
actually do what you're tellingpeople you're doing.
And it means that, as acustomer, why would a customer
(13:23):
wanna support a company thatdoes not value the people that
are supporting them?
It all just kind of tricklesdown and so I tried to be
inclusive.
I tried to understand theboundaries of transparency,
because when I started talkingabout transparency initially it
was oh no, they can't handle it.
(13:43):
No, that is such a terribleidea.
Why would you ever say all ofthis stuff?
Have you tried it?
What happened when you tried it?
And you don't understand wherethe boundary line is until you
try it.
And if you don't try it, thenyou're making an assumption.
And I learned that when theexpectations are clear, when the
boundaries are there andeveryone understands what needs
(14:06):
to happen, there's no more grayarea, that you are a safe space.
You can crush it and thecustomers feel everything,
because now these employees areable to pause, and I've learned
that pause is the differentiatorbetween all right, this is good
(14:27):
, this is fine.
This did what it needed to do,and something that you remember,
and you have to create a spacefor that pause, and if you're
not, then you're failing.
Yeah.
Jordan (14:39):
I actually have a story that totally backs up everything
you just said and it was justin my mind and I had forgotten
about this.
There is this little pizza shopjust two blocks from my house
and they have the best pizza,but twice when we ordered from
them, we would have the deliverydriver if they were late.
They were nervous andapologizing all over themselves
(15:01):
and they would ask us to callthe shop to explain that, like
we weren't upset about it, andwe were like what is going on
over there that these employeesare just like noticeably nervous
and wanting us to call theirbosses and we quit ordering from
them.
After that we were like nope,they don't have our business
(15:21):
anymore because clearly there'ssome like abusive stuff going on
here.
We're done.
Priscilla (15:25):
We're just unhealthy ways of managing.
Yeah, I mean, we probably haveall worked in places where we
felt this to some level.
I have worked in jobs whereyou're just scared to make
anything that isn't perfect orto do any kind of work that
isn't perfection, and you feelsomeone breathing down your neck
all the time and you're rightthat.
And you feel someone breathingdown your neck all the time, and
you're right.
(15:45):
That doesn't give me any spaceto grow.
It doesn't give me any space tofind something new, to do
something better, because I'm soworried about it being perfect
or so worried about getting introuble for asking a question or
trying something new.
Sarah Caminiti (15:57):
Yeah, that's it.
It's the asking a questionthing.
It's one of the things that Isay to any team that I find
myself around, whether I'memployed by them or they just
invite me for a hot second.
It is if you ask a question, ittells me that you care enough
about doing it, right.
Priscilla (16:12):
Yes, that's it Absolutely.
Sarah Caminiti (16:14):
And I will answer the same question over
and over again.
I mean I will probably end upimplementing something so that I
do not have to ask the samequestion over and over again.
Yeah, but I'm never going to beupset.
I will be pissed off if I startfinding mistakes and it's
because you were makingassumptions and you didn't voice
any sort of concern and we hadconversations about certain
(16:37):
things and you still weren'tdoing it.
I mean, that is when I start tolike wonder what the heck are
you doing?
Like, why aren't you?
Why?
Like?
And when I say I might getpissed, I'm realizing now, no, I
probably wouldn't get pissed.
I would say why are you notdoing?
Priscilla (16:51):
this.
Let's figure out what it isthat this isn't Right right.
Sarah Caminiti (16:55):
But no, it's intentions.
Your intentions are good.
What am I doing as a leader,that I'm failing you by not
providing you with the tools youneed to be successful?
That's on me, that's not on you.
Priscilla (17:05):
Yeah, exactly.
I read something recently.
I don't remember where it was,but it was about confidence, and
it was something along thelines of the most confident
person in the room is the personwho's confident enough to ask
the questions for theinformation they don't know.
And the people who don't askthe questions sometimes they
just know everything and theydon't need you know information,
(17:26):
but most of the time it's thatthey don't understand whatever.
It is enough to ask thequestion, or they're nervous to
ask the question in the firstplace.
And so I'm right there with you.
I always want people on my team, or really just anywhere in my
orbit, to know that they can askme questions and it's going to
be safe and they're not going tofeel any kind of shame tied to
that.
Sarah Caminiti (17:44):
Well, that's it too, though, for a customer.
Think about that for a second.
Like, if you are creating aspace for your team where they
feel safe to ask questions, theyare then going to make sure
that a customer feels safe toask questions, and, yeah, the
goal is that the customer is notgoing to need to get to that
point in time where they can nolonger be successful on their
(18:04):
own.
I mean, that's the dream, butyou want them to know.
Whatever question they have,it's a good question, and you're
here and you're going tosupport them and do whatever it
is that you need to do to getthem to what they were trying to
do in the first place.
Priscilla (18:20):
Yeah, without any embarrassment too.
They're not going to get anykind of pushback, or.
I know I asked this a couplemonths ago and I don't
understand it.
Still there's none of that.
You know we want to make surepeople know.
I know it doesn't do any goodfor anyone for the person asking
the question or the personanswering the question.
So, as I was preparing for thisepisode, I read through some of
(18:46):
your website, specifically aboutthe early days of the kindness
initiative that you put together, and now you know Epical
Operations, and this quote stoodout to me and so I wanted to
read it.
Let's not be naive.
Being kind and saying you leadwith kindness will,
unfortunately, not get thetraction it deserves.
It's a misunderstood word andpractice.
It's the results from buildingsystems that are rooted in the
pillars of kindness that makewaves.
(19:07):
You can't tell people to bekind, especially when they don't
understand the value of itspower.
So I thought it'd be cool forus to kind of transition into
talking about the power ofkindness and how we can harness
that power, specifically whenwe're talking about customer
support and driving theseremarkable customer experiences
(19:27):
with your team.
So how have you, sarah, seenkindness and leadership impact
the customer experience?
Sarah Caminiti (19:35):
I think the best way to do this is to compare it
to something that actuallydoesn't work in the context that
it lives, but it really doeswork here.
So whenever I'm trying to thinkabout kindness and the way that
it works, but it really doeswork here.
So whenever I'm trying to thinkabout kindness and the way that
it works in the world, I alwaysgo back to the hilarious
attempt of wealth hoarding thatis, reaganomics and the trickle
(19:57):
down economic system where youknow the wealthy people will
just gift all of those peoplebelow them with the extra money
that they have and it'll raindown on them, which never
happened, but with kindness.
(20:24):
Kindness is one of those thingsthat touch others with kindness
and to approach situations withkindness.
And, like I said before, thatmeans being intentional and
thoughtful and purposeful.
That doesn't mean being nicethat you are present and clear
and utilizing this space in away that values yourself and
(20:50):
values the other person.
It is so powerful and beautifuland moving to see what happens
when you start to incorporatelittle, tiny acts of kindness
into your space.
I mean, look at my, the exampleof my son.
That is the perfect example ofit right there, that kindness.
(21:11):
He is kinder at home he is.
He is happier to not just be onhis tablet.
He wants to play, he wants topaint, he wants to do all of
these things, hang out with hislittle brother, because he felt
that kindness during his day atschool.
And so, starting with somethingsmall and I make it a point to a
few times a week, sometimesevery day, depends on the
(21:33):
situation, but no matter what, Iam letting everybody that I
lead know that I'm thankful forthem and that's a quick message
on Slack, on Teams, on whateverit is that you use.
Hey, I want you to know you'redoing a great job.
I'm so happy that you're here.
That's it.
Like I can remember messagesrare as they were in previous
(21:54):
spaces today, like I canremember where I was sitting, I
can, which tells you how rare itwas, that it was like this,
like humongous deal, I know, butwhy does it need to be
something that has that kind ofa game changing impact on you,
when they just took this passivemoment to say thanks?
(22:15):
Like why don't you want someoneto feel that like high all the
time?
Priscilla (22:20):
All the time.
Well, and also, it's kind oflike you never want someone to
come to you and say, how do youfeel about how I'm working or
how do you feel about me beingon the team, and then you go oh,
I love it and I didn't make youknow this, like I didn't do a
good job of making sure you knewit.
I, for some reason like this,caused you to question it.
For whatever reason, you neverwant that to be the outcome that
(22:43):
someone comes to you and says,hey, I don't feel valued when
you're like I do, value you somuch I need to be doing a better
job of communicating that toyou.
That's you know.
Just, I never want anyone toquestion it, ever.
It's like the saying hurt people, hurt people.
We've heard that it's like theopposite of that.
Right, it's like kind peopleare kind people.
You know, yes, if you're kindto the people on your team, if
(23:06):
you foster a space for them toask questions, to feel safe, to
try new things, without all ofthis you know management and
breathing down your neck and allof that then they're going to
turn around and be kind to yourcustomers, which is ultimately
what you want, because they'rethe ones working directly with
your customers.
You want them to be kind, butalso, just in their life,
(23:28):
they're going to be kinderpeople because they're in a
healthier work environment.
I have had some pretty bad workenvironments and in those times
of my life I was not a kindperson and it's crazy now, when
you're working in a healthy workenvironment, when you realize,
wow, I am nicer, I'm kinder, Ihave more empathy and more grace
for people because I'm gettingthat myself.
(23:48):
It's a huge, huge, huge part ofleadership.
Sarah Caminiti (23:52):
Isn't that?
Just when you think about it,when you reflect on your journey
and the way that you presentedyourself, the way that you
viewed the world, the way thatyou entered into any space, the
impact that others have,especially like your boss, your
self-worth and your ability tovalue you as a human being, and
(24:18):
what that does, and the amountof time that it takes to like
climb out of that hole?
It is the most justdiscouraging thing to think
about the amount of wasted timepeople have to deal with in
order to find a place if theyever do where they're able to
feel empowered and valued andjust treated with respect
(24:39):
because they're a human beingand sometimes you don't even
realize when you're in thatspace, that oh you usually don't
.
Priscilla (24:46):
And so it's.
I mean, for me.
It wasn't until I look backthat I went wow, I really for
those.
For that stretch of time I wasreally unhappy and I didn't even
realize it.
Or, you know, I was always inarguments with people and I
didn't know where that wascoming from and it is crazy how
much that can have an impact onyou without your knowledge,
without even knowing it.
One thing we say you know a lotat BuzzFront Support is we're
(25:07):
happy to help.
I mean, obviously, the name ofthe podcast is happy to help.
It's a pretty common phrase incustomer support but it's funny
because we actually are happy tohelp.
It's like I think it's calledlike the helper's high, it's
like a runner's high.
When you're helping someoneelse, when you're being kind to
someone and giving that off, itmakes you feel better.
So it's kind of like weactually are happy to help you.
(25:29):
When we're helping you, whenwe're kind to you a customer or
someone on your team that makesyou feel better.
You know there's all thesestudies around it.
You're releasing endorphins,you're like all of these things
are working to actually make youfeel better when you're kinder
to people and I just love likethinking through that like this
is actually like a science thingthat when we are kind we feel
(25:51):
better and the person we'rebeing kind to they feel better.
Sarah Caminiti (25:54):
Yes, and then they will go on in their day and
be kind hopefully you know, insome way shape or form to
someone else.
Priscilla (26:01):
Pass it along.
But you know, sometimeskindness does not come naturally
to people, I mean for us.
Sometimes we have to work at it.
I know it's definitelyespecially coming out of like a
difficult work experience andthen coming into where I am now,
like the transition time can betough.
So when new people come on yourteam and they're not used to
that kind of environment, it canbe hard to make that transition
(26:23):
into kindness.
Do you have any tips, sarah,for people who are trying to
figure out how to foster thatkindness mentality when you're
leading a team of people, whenthere's someone maybe new or
someone struggling with that,what kind of tips do you have
for them?
Sarah Caminiti (26:39):
I'm so glad that you brought this up because,
especially working in support, Ithink there is so much trauma
from past experiences and it isa very, very hard thing to break
through unless you arecommitted to it from the
interview stage and you have toset the tone from the very
beginning of who you are, howyou lead and what your
(27:01):
expectations are.
And the best way to do that isyou've got to build a foundation
.
You've got to build afoundation of trust, you have to
build a foundation ofinclusivity, and that happens
through facts, and the only waythat you can get facts like that
and prove your value is byproving yourself to them from
(27:22):
the very beginning.
One of the things that I havecome across is context is nuts
Like.
Context is like kind of theroot of anything and everything,
and we usually don't spendenough time to ask questions to
understand context.
In many situations, even insupport, we don't have the
(27:44):
ability sometimes to understandcontext which is the biggest
like mistake you can make,because someone could be
presenting something in one wayand it is something totally
different, and then you'rereally just wasting time because
you have to go back and startfresh once you understand things
a little bit more.
Same's true on your team, and ifyou are having them enter into
(28:06):
this space, everybody's alreadynervous and excited and anxious
when they join a new company.
You have invited them into yourspace and how do you treat your
guests?
You treat your guests withkindness and you treat them with
respect and you give them a layof the land, the tour of the
house, and if you are that house, what are they going to learn
about who you are?
And the best way to do thisI've found is to write it down.
(28:30):
Miro has a really cool templatethat has these four different
boxes of how you approachteamwork, how you approach work
in general, how you communicate.
There's one other one that Ican't remember and I should have
looked this up before thepodcast.
Jordan (28:45):
We can find a link to that for the show notes.
Sarah Caminiti (28:47):
Yes, Okay, good, thank you, great idea.
I love this.
But you just kind of dump itall in there, and not only does
(29:09):
this provide context of whatthey should expect when they
enter into situations with you.
Go about it this way.
If you've made a mistake andI've already explained, I am
doing this from a place ofcuriosity and sincerity, there's
no malice behind it I want tounderstand where in this journey
things kind of went off courseor went south.
Yeah, because it's my job for itnot to happen and I know that
(29:30):
you are doing your best.
So how can we make it so thatyou don't find yourself in these
situations in the future?
If I already have that inwriting, that I've shared with
them, that we've hadconversations about it, then if
I do it and they're like whoa,whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
Asking me this question, thenyou can be like hey, hey, hey,
(29:50):
hold on, hold on.
Remember, this is how we figurethis stuff out together, like
this is a journey together, andthen you can have those
conversations where you thendon't have to explain all of
this extra stuff about yourapproach and about why you go
about things in certain ways,and start talking about that
during the interview.
I usually just talk for like 30minutes when I'm interviewing
(30:15):
someone for my team, of therealities of the situation and
this is how you spend your time.
This is what I expect from you.
I expect you to brainstorm withme.
I expect you to.
You know, push back if youdon't think something's right,
but then give me what you thinkthe solution is.
Support is an interesting spacebecause we are presented with
(30:36):
problems constantly.
Everything is a problem, and soit's not like with a lot of
these project planning teamswhere you never can present a
solution.
You always have to present theproblem.
We get hit with the problem allthe time.
We have to connect the dots toa lot of problems and then we
come up with solutions, usuallybecause we're scrappy, but
(30:57):
sometimes because we're going topresent it to the product team,
and that's how our brain works.
So we are capable, more capablethan a lot of other folks.
I feel to be solutions-drivenfolk and come up with very
creative ways to go aboutsituations, and I want to just
(31:17):
lean into that on my team asmuch as I can, and so that
expectation is clear.
Boundaries are clear when we goto, when you get here with a
customer and they are treatingyou in such and such a way.
If you feel this, and even ifthere's nothing that is obvious,
if something inside of you justfeels a little off that you
don't feel great aboutcontinuing this conversation
(31:38):
with a customer, it's mine.
Pass it to me.
That is not yours to deal with.
You deserve respect.
You deserve kindness and if acustomer is doing anything that
feels weird, that's myresponsibility, not yours.
You don't have to take that.
No, no, take that weight.
Understand what someone'spurpose is on that team.
(31:59):
Make sure they understand whattheir purpose is on this team
and what your purpose is on thisteam.
And if you are a leader thathas decided to test out this
whole new way of doing things, Ithink that's the first thing
you have to assess.
What do you know?
What do you not know and whydon't you know it?
And what is your purpose?
(32:20):
Can you define your purpose forthe people that you lead, for
managing up for the customers,for the other departments?
Do you understand therelationships you have with
other departments and whatthey're expecting from you?
If you don't ask questions,then you are choosing to have
gray area.
(32:41):
You are choosing for your teamto have ambiguity.
You are choosing to not valuetheir success enough to bring
clarity in any way that youpossibly can.
And it is time consuming and itis work and it is manual, but
what you will gain from that isa level of confidence in
yourself and your space andempowerment to then provide that
(33:04):
empowerment to those that youlead, who will then provide that
empowerment to the customers.
Priscilla (33:09):
Right, that's amazing To the customers right.
Well, and it's you were sayingabout, like when there's an
angry customer Right and youwant to make sure everyone on
your team knows that, as soon asthey feel uncomfortable with it
, they can pass it to you.
Someone who's coming into yourteam from a environment where
that was not the case, Give themtwo or three times where you
follow through on that and youactually take it from them and
(33:32):
they will start to realize ohwait, she's not just saying this
, she's actually followingthrough with it.
Like I am actually safe, Likeit might take a little time for
someone to get comfortable andrealize that oh, you're saying
this, but you actually mean it.
Sarah Caminiti (33:44):
Well, and you do it, you have to go in.
That's another that I'm so gladyou brought that up, because
when people are nervous likethat, when they've not been in
these environments before, theirgauge of what is respectful and
what is not respectful and whatis appropriate and what is not
appropriate is messed up.
It is not.
It needs to be recalibrated.
Priscilla (34:04):
Yeah, and you have to do that, so you have to be
proactive about it.
Sarah Caminiti (34:08):
Yeah, In my last job maybe a little bit overkill
for a lot of people, but Imanually QA'd every single
ticket, every single ticket thatcame in.
I scrutinized and I pulledtrends, I pulled opportunities
for knowledge-based articles,sales marketing, anything that I
could extract.
Because there's so much data inthere and it was time consuming
(34:29):
, but it made me better andbecause I was looking at
everything at all times, I wasable to say hey, when you talk
to this customer, why didn't youcome and get me?
That's not okay that he was soshort with you, or why did you
have to explain yourself sixtimes to this person?
We all know and support youjust dump a title on something
(34:52):
I'm sorry if this is industrysecrets.
You put a title on yourself,say the exact same thing that
someone else has been saying,that they refuse to accept, and
suddenly it is that ticket ofgreatness and everything they
could ever need in life in aninstant.
Priscilla (35:08):
I've never done that, ever, never, never.
Sarah Caminiti (35:10):
Neither have I.
Priscilla (35:10):
I've never done that, ever, never, never, neither
have I.
It is funny Early, early yearsof doing support for me I was,
you know, one person doingsupport, and when people didn't
believe me, I would make my namePatrick and then they would
believe me.
Sarah Caminiti (35:25):
The beauty of being a woman in this world, we
could have a whole otherconversation about that.
Priscilla (35:31):
Oh, I know, but it's so important, like being
proactive as the leader andlooking for those, especially
when they're new and they don'tknow that they have the freedom
to pass that kind of stuff ontoyou.
Like, if you're coming from aplace where you're used to just
absorbing that kind of treatmentin a support role, you're not
going to think, oh, this is asituation where I can send this
(35:52):
on to the person who's leadingme, and so it really is
important, as the leader, to goand be proactive about finding
that and actually practicingwhat you preach and making sure
that they know that this istruly something that you want to
take from them.
Sarah Caminiti (36:05):
it's not just that it's possible, but that you
want to be the one that absorbsthat exactly, it makes a big
difference and it's a littleyeah, it is a little act and it
carries a lot of weight.
Priscilla (36:14):
And I think another thing, too, that's really good
to remember when you're leadinga team and kindness is a driving
factor is reminding your teamto be kind to themselves.
Yes, I think you know, insupport specifically, we do so
much, pouring out of empathy andpouring out of kindness and
patience and grace, and I dothink it's important to remind
people that they need to be kindto themselves in that too, and
(36:37):
part of that is passing on anemail to someone in leadership
because it's not kind toyourself to keep working with
this person, or maybe it'staking a break in a certain way
and giving yourself, you know, aweek vacation to.
You know, restore your mentalempathy reserve, you know that
kind of thing.
I do think it's reallyimportant that we remember that
we're talking about kindness forpeople on our team, kindness
(36:59):
for our customers, that we alsowant to make sure we're talking
about kindness for ourselves,too, and having grace for
ourselves.
Sarah Caminiti (37:05):
Yeah, support's hard.
Support is so hard and it issomething that I mean I still
struggle with actually takingtime off.
Priscilla (37:14):
So do I.
Sarah Caminiti (37:15):
And taking the time off With my new job.
I didn't put anything on myphone for a reason to establish
that boundary.
Priscilla (37:22):
So healthy.
Sarah Caminiti (37:23):
It's so healthy and it's so necessary.
I do sometimes pull it up onSafari.
Priscilla (37:27):
But it's still putting more roadblocks.
It's putting more roadblocks inthere.
You're not just checking itright away.
You actually have to beintentional on the like little
notification thing, but it is.
Sarah Caminiti (37:38):
I mean, what is?
I feel like there's like all ofthose like live, laugh, love
things out there about, uh,about like loving yourself.
But the weird thing about thatis it's like just because how
are you supposed to find thatspace for yourself to treat
(38:02):
yourself well and love yourselfand be proud of yourself for the
work that you're doing?
And that's why leadership issuch an important thing to have
success in.
It carries a role that impactsevery corner of somebody's life.
Jordan (38:23):
Yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (38:23):
And it's a mentorship role.
I read parenting books and itgives me tips for how to
approach leadership situations,because sometimes learning how
to have hard conversations aboutboundaries or about mistakes
with a toddler gives you so muchclarity on why things have not
(38:43):
been successful when you've beentrying to establish boundaries
with others, because it's veryblack and white and you're
usually trying to overcomplicateit and you're not saying what
you want to say.
You're saying what you thinkyou're supposed to say, and all
of that plays into being proudof yourself and celebrating
yourself.
And if you have a leader thatis celebrating you or a leader
(39:05):
that is saying, hey, you seemlike you're a little bit
distracted.
What's going on?
Oh, you've got your kids hometoday.
One of them's sick.
Why didn't you tell me Justtake the afternoon off, let me
know if you need anything.
This is not like that's life.
Life is a heck of a lot moreimportant than work, and you
(39:28):
can't do work well if you've gotstuff going on outside of work.
And it's another thing that Idrive home in the interviews.
It is I don't want you here ifyou're stressed or you're not
feeling well, if you've gotthings that are going on in your
life.
Not because I don't think thatyou would do your job well or
you're not taking up a qualityamount of work or anything like
that.
It's because what does that doto you?
(39:49):
That's not fair.
You need to be able to be allin at work, just like you should
be able to be all in at home,and that's boundaries and you
have to establish that andremind it and teach it and live
it as a leader.
Priscilla (40:04):
Otherwise you're just paying lip service that context
is knowing the people on yourteam and knowing the customers
(40:25):
that are writing into you andhaving that kind of an
understanding.
I mean, in my early years ofleading, having people on my
team that I, you know, it's kindof the idea of say, hey, let's
jump on a call.
And then, as a person who getsanxious about these kind of
things, if that was someonesaying let's jump on my leader,
saying let's jump on a call, Iwould go, oh my gosh, what did I
do wrong?
I'm going to get fired?
Yeah, this is not going to begood.
(40:45):
And I remember, as in my earlyyears of leading a team, I would
say, hey, let's jump on a call,just so you know this is a good
thing, no need to stress out.
And they would be like, oh mygosh, you don on your team and
how that kind of a hey, let'sjump on a call is going to
(41:11):
affect them.
And tailoring the way you leadthem a little bit, specifically
because you know them and you'reknown by them.
And the same thing it appliesto customers and knowing the
kind of people that are usingyour service, the kind of people
like we.
You know we work in podcasting,so knowing that the people who
are creating podcasts onBuzzsprout they're working a lot
of times on their own in a silo.
They're not in a big team.
(41:31):
Sometimes they are, butsometimes they're not.
And so having that contextallows us to serve them better,
because we can be that team forthem.
And once they know that we'rethere for them, it makes the
interaction so much better andso much more personal.
And having that context aboutyour team, about your customers,
is so important and reallyfosters the ability to provide a
(41:52):
remarkable experience forsomeone on your team or someone
using your product.
Sarah Caminiti (41:57):
Oh, I agree 100% , and the impact that support
has on a brand is not celebratedenough.
Jordan (42:07):
I mean, we could have when.
Sarah Caminiti (42:07):
I was making my notes I kept putting like oh,
this could be seven episodes oh,maybe we can do a follow-up one
on this one.
But the series with Sarah, Ilove it.
But we have so many productsthat exist that do the exact
same thing, and we've got thingslike Reddit, we've got things
(42:34):
like LinkedIn, instagram, all ofthose places.
Then you've got like glass doorreviews about the employee
experience.
There's a bajillion ways tounderstand what the key
takeaways are as an actualcustomer and just like with
metrics and surveys and CSATs,you are either getting somebody
that's angry and that wants tobe loud and angry and never
(42:54):
usually provides the context ofthe realities of the situation,
but still they're allowed to beangry and feel all the big
feelings Right.
And then there's the otherpeople.
Those are the people that youmade such an impact and it's
usually for doing something assimple as I forgot my password
that they want to celebrate you.
(43:15):
It's seeing those sorts ofexperiences and seeing like I
lost my email address and I wasso stressed because I was not
going to be able to do this formy job, or I couldn't get on a
plane to go and see my mom forher birthday because I couldn't
access this, like we forget thelives of the people that we are
(43:36):
interacting with and support,just like leaders so often
prevent themselves fromrealizing the lives of the
people that are on their team.
And if we allow ourselves to bereminded that we are people we
are all just people that aretrying to succeed.
And no one wants to write intosupport.
I mean, I do like writing intoBuzzsprout, but that's probably
(44:02):
just because we're going to besitting.
Taylor Swift gifts.
Priscilla (44:04):
We're going to be sitting in pictures of my kids
dancing to Taylor Swift.
Sarah Caminiti (44:07):
There's a thief.
But really, like, you have tobe vulnerable.
You have to be vulnerable toreach out to support when you
don't know when you're going toget an answer.
You don't know what that answeris going to be, and so if
someone is able to provide youwith a level of service that not
only meets your needs butusually because they're able to
(44:27):
pause and look at the entiresituation give you what you need
to answer those questions thatyou did not anticipate you were
going to have.
But it completes the picturefor you to do what you need to
do and does it in a way whereyou feel proud of yourself at
the end of it for doing this onyour own, and also safe to come
back and ask a follow-upquestion.
Holy crap, like you have doneyour job well, and there are so
(44:53):
many great teams out there thatare doing this over and over and
over and over again, and it isso important to recognize that,
because that's something tocelebrate.
Priscilla (45:04):
And that's where the brand loyalty comes in right,
because when you write in andyou have a personal connection
with the person who is helpingyou log in or helping you make
that flight, when you know thatthat person on the other side of
the email or on the other sideof the phone call, when they
care about you and they'retreating you with kindness, you
see that whole company, thatwhole product, that whole
service as caring about you,because that one person did it.
(45:27):
And that's where the brandloyalty comes in and that's
where the differentiator betweencompanies that do the same kind
of thing comes in, because youknow that with that service or
that company or that team, theycare about you, they're treating
you well, they're treating youwith kindness.
That team, they care about you,they're treating you well,
they're treating you withkindness.
And the only way that someoneon your team is going to be able
to do that is if you, as aleader, are leading them with
(45:49):
that same kind of kindness andthat same kind of empathy and
understanding and knowing themand allowing them to know you.
And I just think it's soimportant and I think it's not
talked about enough, and so I'mreally happy that we have had
this conversation about it.
You know, when I was workingthrough the outline, I wanted to
get into more about how to findjobs that foster this kind of
(46:12):
environment, but I think that'sprobably going to be an episode
for another time because we'vejust had such a good
conversation about this and Ireally appreciate you coming on,
sarah and being here.
So now I want to transition intoour support in real life
segment.
Oh, here we are in support inreal life and Sarah's still with
(46:33):
us, which is really fun.
So usually at the end of everyepisode, sarah, we will talk
about either a question from alistener or a question that we
find online, or a story from alistener or a real life support
story, and we kind of spend afew minutes talking about it.
So I'm really excited thatyou're going to stick around
with us for this segment.
Me, too, I was reading asupport driven Slack channel
(46:55):
yesterday and came across thisquestion and thought this would
be a really cool one for you totalk about, specifically because
I think you'll have some reallygreat advice.
So yesterday in this supportdriven Slack channel, someone
named Sarah asked what are someprofessional development courses
or events that you wouldrecommend to a new support
specialist interested in growingtheir skills?
Do you want to kick us off withsome tips?
Sarah Caminiti (47:18):
Yes, yes, I love this and I've had a lot of
conversations with a lot offolks about this very thing,
because it is really hard tofind places that totally let you
level up in support.
There's nothing black and whiteabout it.
It is something usually thatyou have to figure out on your
journey for a lot of theseskills that you take with you.
(47:39):
But the best thing that you canpossibly do is find the
community that fits your space.
And there are so many likesupport driven.
Priscilla and I wereunbeknownst to us at the same.
Support driven expo the onlyones either have us have ever
gone to.
Priscilla (47:56):
Yeah five years ago, so random yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (48:00):
But they are places that remind us that we're
not alone and that thequestions and the worries and
the frustrations that we have,everybody is experiencing those,
and talk about a group ofpeople that creates a safe space
.
Elevate CX is one of the mostpowerful sources of knowledge,
(48:24):
of support, of empowerment thatI have ever come across, and I
am so proud to be active in thatcommunity and get to know these
people.
That are just the specialistpeople.
Most of them have been guestson the podcast If they haven't
been on there for one that Ihave released yet, it will be
(48:44):
happening because I've got themall recorded and Elevate has a
couple of events a year and theyare very focused on just making
you the best that you can be inyour job and realizing the
realities of your job.
And right now I'm working withSarah Hatter, who is the founder
of Elevate, on an event inLondon that I'm going to be
(49:05):
talking about in November.
So much fun and I'm taking oversome of the masterclass hosting
duties for her, which is goingto be a blast, and so if any of
the listeners have things thatthey would like to hear in the
masterclass, like Priscilla said, I did one on boundaries.
I also did one on starting acareer in support.
Like Priscilla said, I did oneon boundaries.
I also did one on starting acareer in support.
There's ones on data andmetrics and all sorts of things.
(49:26):
So if you go to the Elevate CXwebsite, you can find all of
those masterclasses.
Those are just real peopletalking about the realities of
the situation and they're notjust, you know, blowing smoke up
your butt, and if you have anyquestions, you just reach out to
them.
Yeah, and then they reply.
Priscilla (49:42):
Yeah, and we can link those videos too in the
episode's description so that ifyou are listening to this and
looking for that, you can get toit easily.
I think when I started doingsupport, it was brand new to me.
I didn't come from a placewhere I had done this kind of
support before and I felt veryin a silo and not knowing where
to find these kind of resources.
(50:03):
And so I just think about eightyears ago, if I hadn't had
these, it would have been somuch more just helpful in
growing those skills.
And so I'm you know, I'mexcited that people listening to
this.
That's part of the reason whywe wanted to start this podcast
in the first place is because Iwanted to be able to share with
people that are in the boat Iwas in and give them a way to
(50:24):
like grow their skills in a verytangible way.
And one thing I'll say too iswhen you're looking for these
kind of resources to grow yourskills, it doesn't all have to
be within the world of customersupport.
You might find that you want togrow your writing skill, and so
you might go find a masterclass.
That's not even about supportwriting, but about creative
writing to grow that skill.
(50:46):
Or maybe you find that youreally need to work on your
patience and your empathy andthat that needs to be more
natural.
So you look for something likethat.
It doesn't have to be withinthe bubble of support, it can be
outside of that and that canreally help you grow in your
support skills as well, oh, whata great point.
Sarah Caminiti (51:02):
Because I mean, what is support?
Support is communication,that's it.
That's what it is.
It is, how can I communicateeffectively?
Priscilla (51:09):
So simple.
The end, that's it.
Do I have the resources to?
Sarah Caminiti (51:11):
communicate effectively, and that's it, and
that is something that does notjust live in support, it does
live elsewhere, and there's alot of really cool things that
do exist.
But Elevate is a great place tostart.
I do have to agree with you,priscilla.
I too spent years not utilizingthe resources around me because
we are so in this, like we are,so like all in, like we are, we
(51:34):
can't breathe, we can't come upfor air, usually when we are
starting in support, especiallyif you're by yourself- in a
support team or in a small team.
it's so hard to come up for airGetting through the day like the
thought of like going andasking a question what, no,
that's that didn't even cross mymind until, honestly, like a
year and a half ago it was 20years or like answering the
(51:58):
question Wait a second, I mighthave knowledge that someone
might find use.
Wait what?
Priscilla (52:05):
No way.
Sarah Caminiti (52:05):
And so it's you know more than you realize.
Always you have to trustyourself, yeah, and you have to
be vulnerable.
And once you can get to thatspace, find yourself a community
like Elevate CX.
Find yourself an event like theone in Denver or the one in
London that's going to be comingup next year.
I'm also going to be puttingtogether a women's summit, so be
(52:26):
on the lookout for that.
But we are cheerleaders, it isour job and we want everyone
that is in this field to besuccessful, and we will figure
out a way to make sure you'resuccessful.
So just find us.
We're here.
I love it.
Priscilla (52:39):
Well, thank you for sharing that and remember, if
you're listening and you want toshare your stories or a
question, you can email us athappy to help at buzzsproutcom,
or you can text the show throughthe link in our description
that says like send a message tothe show Before we wrap up.
Sarah, how can our listenersfind you?
Where would you like to pointthem?
Sarah Caminiti (52:58):
Yes, please find me.
I would love to hear fromanybody, especially if it's
someone that's curious aboutkindness and leadership, whether
it be in customer support orotherwise.
Yeah, I have a podcast, epicalGrowth.
Like Priscilla said, it isthrough Buzzsprout.
You can find it atepicalgrowthbuzzsproutcom or
anywhere that you are listeningto your podcast.
(53:18):
I also have a YouTube page.
I've become a little obsessivewith pulling clips that
highlight the incredible wordsof wisdom that the folks that
gift me with their time on theshow share with the listeners,
and I want to make sure thatthey're able to see how wise
they are and we don't just glazeover it because they say some
pretty remarkable things.
(53:38):
And you don't have an hourbecause I'm a talker if you
haven't noticed some prettyremarkable things.
And you don't have an hourbecause I'm a talker if you
haven't noticed to spendlistening to the show.
Find those nuggets and we will.
We will cheer you on in littleone minute clips.
But also, I'm on LinkedIn.
Find me on LinkedIn, follow me,connect with me.
Usually, if you do follow me, Iwill connect with you because I
think it's weird that I wouldnot also want to know you.
(54:01):
If you want to know me and sayhi, or find me on Elevate.
I'm around and I'm happy tohelp.
Priscilla (54:10):
Awesome, and I love that You're happy to help, sure.
Thank you so much for beinghere, sarah.
This has been really great.
I'm so happy that I got to come.
Thank you for having me, yeah,and Epical Growth is great.
So if you're looking for morepodcasts to learn either
leadership or customer support,go listen to Epical Growth and
subscribe.
Share that with people, shareyour thoughts and your feedback
(54:31):
with Sarah, because it's reallyhelpful.
As you know, a new podcaster Iknow I speak for myself and
Jordan, but you know probablyfor Sarah too that it's really
nice to hear feedback frompeople about what works, what
doesn't, what you're enjoying,so that we can kind of help
provide content that you'reenjoying and learning from.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
I hope you've enjoyed it andcan go into, you know, your work
(54:55):
week leading with kindness andinteracting with your customers
with kindness.
I want to thank Sarah Caminitiagain for joining us on today's
episode, and thank you toeveryone for listening.
Now go and make someone's day.
Welcome to Happy to Help, a podcast about customer
support from the people atBuzzsprout.
I'm your host, Priscilla Brooke.
Today we're talking all aboutkindness and how something as
seemingly simple as kindness canhave a major impact on the way
you lead your support team,create remarkable experiences
for your customers and,ultimately, build brand loyalty.
Thanks for joining us.
(00:20):
Let's get into it.
So today is a big day.
Not only is it our 10th episode, but it's also our first
official guest episode, which isvery exciting.
Yes, so up until now we havehad a lot of awesome guests from
inside of the Buzzsprout worldand of course, we have Jordan
(00:41):
here every week, of course, butthis is the first time that
we've had someone come on theshow that is not on the
Buzzsprout team, and so I'mreally pumped for all of our
listeners, but also just likefor myself to get to learn from
our guest.
So today we have Sarah Caminitijoining us.
I was first introduced to Sarahduring an Elevate CX masterclass
(01:02):
panel that she did a couplemonths ago.
It was a panel about settingboundaries and customer support,
and she just had some reallygreat advice to share, and I
knew I was like, yeah, I want tolearn more from Sarah, but also
I want her to come on thepodcast and I want to learn
about how she leads teams, andso I did some research.
I was digging up on her alittle bit and learned that she
has some awesome opinions onleading with kindness
(01:25):
specifically, and so I'm reallyexcited because today we're
going to talk about leadingteams with kindness and how that
can affect customer support and, ultimately, like, build loyal
customers.
And so Sarah has been in thecustomer support world for over
20 years.
She has experience both leadingsupport teams but also doing
(01:46):
support, you know, directly withcustomers, as anyone who leads
a team probably also hasexperience doing it themselves.
Plus, she has a podcast thatshe launched just recently
called Epical Growth, which isabout customer support and
leadership and so much more.
So thanks for being with us,sarah.
Sarah Caminiti (02:01):
Oh my gosh, I am so, so, so happy to be here.
Priscilla, and I did notrealize I was officially the
first guest outside of theBuzzsprout world.
So I'm honored.
Thank you so much, and I can'twait to hang with you guys for a
little bit.
Priscilla (02:17):
Yeah, I mean it's funny You're outside of the
Buzzsprout world but now you'rekind of in the buzz sprout world
because you recently became abuzz sprout customer.
Oh, I'm in and I feel likewe've known each other forever.
Now.
I know it's been a week, but Imean we spent, right before we
started recording, we spent 10minutes talking about Taylor
Swift.
So I mean, as you should youknow we are we're besties at
(02:40):
this point, which is really fun.
I love it.
Sarah Caminiti (02:42):
No, it's true, and I am loving Buzzsprout.
I made it a point to not justgush about how much I love
Buzzsprout and everything that Iwant to talk about today.
But sometimes you do come acrossa place that you know that the
team feels supported and safe todo their job well, and the way
(03:03):
that that comes across in thecustomer experience end of it is
one that just kind of stickswith you and you remember it and
you recommend people to itbecause of it.
And you're doing that atBuzzsprout and I just want to
celebrate you guys any way thatI can.
Priscilla (03:17):
Well, I appreciate that, but yeah, it's great.
It's been so fun to have youinteracting with our support
team too over the past week.
It's really been great.
So one of the things that I'vestarted doing on this show, as
we kind of kick it off, isasking people who is someone who
made your day recently, likegiving you the opportunity to
shout someone out or to tell usa story where someone made your
day better.
One thing we do on this show iswe finish every episode with
(03:41):
now go and make someone's day.
I think that something weforget in customer support
sometimes is that we have like aton of power to make or break
someone's day, and so if we'rein a place with that power, why
not make someone's day betterevery shot we have?
And so I like the idea ofasking our guests who's someone
that has made your day betterthat you want to shout out on
(04:02):
the podcast as we get started.
Sarah Caminiti (04:04):
Yes, I was so pumped when I saw this question
but also, like, so overwhelmedwith ideas, because I've been
encountering so many wonderfulpeople lately.
And I want to shine some lighton my four-year-old's teacher,
because my four-year-old is atheater kid at heart.
(04:24):
I mean, this child will performNightmare Before Christmas at
the drop of a hat and explain toyou the difference between
Marilyn Manson's version and theoriginal version from the show
by how he does bum, bum, bums.
Jordan (04:35):
Amazing, but so he loves to perform.
Sarah Caminiti (04:37):
And sometimes that means he can be a
four-year-old little boy.
That is disruptive and thispast year he had a hard time
kind of figuring out how tonavigate being in a classroom
while also wanting to makeeverybody laugh.
And he has a new teacher rightnow for the summer program and
she has been making it a pointto recognize all of the little
(05:00):
things that he does to makepeople's days better, and so
he's coming home with all ofthese stickers and he's so proud
of the stickers and she comesout and tells me how great of a
job he's doing and thedifference in who he is based on
these small little things thatthis teacher is doing, these
small little acts of kindnessthat she's doing for my little
(05:22):
boy.
It is making bedtime better, itis making bedtime better, it's
making mornings better, it'smaking playtime better and it
just it touches everything, andso I really, really, really want
to just shed light on the powerof small acts of kindness.
And you don't have to start whenyou're an adult.
You can do it for little peopletoo, because it matters.
Priscilla (05:45):
I love that, I love that I love that so much.
I just think it's such a goodreminder that we as I mean as
customer support specialists,but also just as people have so
much control, like over someoneelse's day and so doing those
little tiny acts of kindness sheprobably doesn't realize how
big of an impact that's havingon your son, but also on you as
(06:05):
the mother who then does bedtime, and so I love that so much.
Hopefully she'll listen to thebeginning of this episode and
hear that, because I think it'sa good encouragement for sure.
So before we start jumping inand talking about kindness and
customer support, I'd love forour listeners to learn a little
bit more about you, sarah.
Do you mind sharing just alittle bit of your background
(06:25):
and how you ended up in theworld of customer support?
Sarah Caminiti (06:28):
Yeah, I'd love to.
So, like you said, I've been inand around support for about 20
years.
I'll be honest, I ran away fromit for so many years, thinking
that this is not a career optionthat I want to pursue.
But then I kept reflectingevery time I would get
frustrated with the jobs that Iwas in.
Like, what is it that is makingme frustrated and what is it
(06:50):
that I love?
Like, what do I keepgravitating towards?
And I keep gravitating towardshelping others succeed.
Right, I'm always happiest whenI'm helping others succeed, and
that's in many different ways.
But at the end of the day,everybody's kind of your
customer whether it's your boss,whether it is an actual
customer, whether it's, I mean,the secretary that's helping you
out like everybody is yourcustomer.
(07:12):
And I realized, okay, what doesthis mean for where I can go
from here?
And I was introduced to SaaSand startups and the way that
they were treating customersupport professionals as
professionals, which I hadn'tseen before.
And I made my way into thisspace and have been here for
about 10 years building supportteams and seeing what's possible
(07:38):
with data and what's possiblewith leadership, but being able
to experiment and fail andsucceed and all of those things
happen in support and it's beena joy to be able to build a
career and then remind peoplehow intense of a career but
rewarding of a career it can be.
Priscilla (07:57):
Yeah, I think that is definitely something that
people don't realize if you'renot working in customer support,
just how intense it can get.
It's intense, it really.
It can go in so many.
Just how intense it can get.
It's intense, it really.
It can go in so many differentdirections, but it can get very
intense.
You're working with alldifferent kinds of people from
all different walks of life.
It's hard, it can be reallyhard to work in customer support
(08:17):
.
Sarah Caminiti (08:17):
And then you have to.
You don't get to recognize anyof it.
You move on Like you have agood interaction with a customer
and then okay, cool, onto thenext thing, moving on to the
next person, onto the next, ontothe next, and you learn things
along the way.
But the celebration is notthere, and that's one of the
reasons why I was excited aboutmy podcast is getting to
celebrate, because I thinkeveryone in any industry doesn't
(08:40):
celebrate the small and the biggood things that we do all the
time enough.
Priscilla (08:45):
We should just be celebrating more in general.
Jordan (08:47):
Yes, yes, we should, yeah, it'd make life better.
Priscilla (08:50):
Yeah, there's a lot of hard stuff in life, but we
don't celebrate the good stuffeither, and so I, yeah, I think
we should be definitelycelebrating more.
So here you are now impartingyour wisdom through the podcast
here on our episode, but alsojust to support teams that
you're working with, and so Ikind of want to dig into what
really brought me to you in thefirst place, which was kindness.
(09:13):
Yeah, people might think aboutkindness as like a really simple
topic, and I mean honestly, itkind of is a pretty simple idea,
but it's really vital for goodleadership and providing
remarkable support.
It's really important for that,and I really think you're the
best person to talk about it.
You know kindness has been abig part of your career, and so
(09:34):
can you give me and thelisteners a little bit of
history about your relationshipwith kindness and what you've
learned and how it's firststarted impacting your career
and how you lead?
Sarah Caminiti (09:43):
Yes, I'm so excited to do this.
I am someone that is driven bythe golden rule, and it wasn't
until recently that I realizedthat that really was like the
driver in every single decisionthat I make, and it's not like
anything super deep.
I just go about things the waythat I would like to have them
(10:05):
done and I want people to bekind to me.
I want people to understand thecontext of what's going on in a
situation or ask me questions.
So why the heck wouldn't I dothat to somebody else?
And so in every job that I wasin and support that's one of the
reasons why I struggled so muchwith wanting to stay in
customer support.
I just kept getting sofrustrated that every boss I had
(10:29):
at some point would do feartactics or micromanaging or
there was an automatic negativeassumption made about something
that I did or something that mycolleagues did, and my heart
would just start racing anytimethey would walk into the room,
and it's one of the reasons Istarted working in support.
(10:50):
It's actually even one of thereasons why my desk isn't facing
the door.
I don't like that feeling ofsomeone's going to come up
behind me see what is going onand then I'll need to explain
myself, for whatever reason.
And just I couldn't figure outwhy.
Like what are we getting out ofthis?
I'm not the only one feelingthis way.
(11:11):
My team feels this way too, andwe're not performing to our
highest capacity because we'restressed and we're panicked and
we're anxious and we don't wantto ask questions.
It didn't make any sense.
That's why I kept leaving andthen I kept seeing the same sort
(11:32):
of thing though everywhere,Like it is just the old way of
leading.
Priscilla (11:34):
I don't even like saying leading it's the old way
of being a boss or managing it'slike yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (11:36):
No trust why you spent so much time trying to
find the candidate.
Why does that change the momentthat they join your team?
It doesn't make any sense to me.
And so, when I started buildingmy own teams, I committed to an
experiment, and the experimentwas hey, I've never seen this,
(11:57):
is there a reason why I've neverseen this before?
And let's try and see whathappens?
For and let's try and see whathappens.
And so I just started leadingmy teams the way I wished that I
had been led.
All of those years I've been incall centers, I've worked retail
general stores, regularcustomer support, you name it.
It's not that I don'tunderstand the realities of the
(12:18):
job.
It's I understand the realitiesso well that it makes no sense
to not be doing it this way.
So when the word kindness comesup, I realize the weight of
that word is a lot.
It means that you valuesomeone's time enough that your
(12:41):
actions are representing yourwords.
It means that you are beingintentional with what you're
putting out there and thoughtfuland purposeful.
And there's so much noise rightnow, or just in general, of
buzzwords and key concepts andall these game-changing
revelations that people arehaving all the time, and then
(13:02):
you start asking questions aboutwhat that means.
And no one's doing anythingabout it.
They're just saying things.
And what does that tell yourteam and your customers?
That tells your team that youdo not value them enough to
actually do what you're tellingpeople you're doing.
And it means that, as acustomer, why would a customer
(13:23):
wanna support a company thatdoes not value the people that
are supporting them?
It all just kind of tricklesdown and so I tried to be
inclusive.
I tried to understand theboundaries of transparency,
because when I started talkingabout transparency initially it
was oh no, they can't handle it.
(13:43):
No, that is such a terribleidea.
Why would you ever say all ofthis stuff?
Have you tried it?
What happened when you tried it?
And you don't understand wherethe boundary line is until you
try it.
And if you don't try it, thenyou're making an assumption.
And I learned that when theexpectations are clear, when the
boundaries are there andeveryone understands what needs
(14:06):
to happen, there's no more grayarea, that you are a safe space.
You can crush it and thecustomers feel everything,
because now these employees areable to pause, and I've learned
that pause is the differentiatorbetween all right, this is good
(14:27):
, this is fine.
This did what it needed to do,and something that you remember,
and you have to create a spacefor that pause, and if you're
not, then you're failing.
Yeah.
Jordan (14:39):
I actually have a story that totally backs up everything
you just said and it was justin my mind and I had forgotten
about this.
There is this little pizza shopjust two blocks from my house
and they have the best pizza,but twice when we ordered from
them, we would have the deliverydriver if they were late.
They were nervous andapologizing all over themselves
(15:01):
and they would ask us to callthe shop to explain that, like
we weren't upset about it, andwe were like what is going on
over there that these employeesare just like noticeably nervous
and wanting us to call theirbosses and we quit ordering from
them.
After that we were like nope,they don't have our business
(15:21):
anymore because clearly there'ssome like abusive stuff going on
here.
We're done.
Priscilla (15:25):
We're just unhealthy ways of managing.
Yeah, I mean, we probably haveall worked in places where we
felt this to some level.
I have worked in jobs whereyou're just scared to make
anything that isn't perfect orto do any kind of work that
isn't perfection, and you feelsomeone breathing down your neck
all the time and you're rightthat.
And you feel someone breathingdown your neck all the time, and
you're right.
(15:45):
That doesn't give me any spaceto grow.
It doesn't give me any space tofind something new, to do
something better, because I'm soworried about it being perfect
or so worried about getting introuble for asking a question or
trying something new.
Sarah Caminiti (15:57):
Yeah, that's it.
It's the asking a questionthing.
It's one of the things that Isay to any team that I find
myself around, whether I'memployed by them or they just
invite me for a hot second.
It is if you ask a question, ittells me that you care enough
about doing it, right.
Priscilla (16:12):
Yes, that's it Absolutely.
Sarah Caminiti (16:14):
And I will answer the same question over
and over again.
I mean I will probably end upimplementing something so that I
do not have to ask the samequestion over and over again.
Yeah, but I'm never going to beupset.
I will be pissed off if I startfinding mistakes and it's
because you were makingassumptions and you didn't voice
any sort of concern and we hadconversations about certain
(16:37):
things and you still weren'tdoing it.
I mean, that is when I start tolike wonder what the heck are
you doing?
Like, why aren't you?
Why?
Like?
And when I say I might getpissed, I'm realizing now, no, I
probably wouldn't get pissed.
I would say why are you notdoing?
Priscilla (16:51):
this.
Let's figure out what it isthat this isn't Right right.
Sarah Caminiti (16:55):
But no, it's intentions.
Your intentions are good.
What am I doing as a leader,that I'm failing you by not
providing you with the tools youneed to be successful?
That's on me, that's not on you.
Priscilla (17:05):
Yeah, exactly.
I read something recently.
I don't remember where it was,but it was about confidence, and
it was something along thelines of the most confident
person in the room is the personwho's confident enough to ask
the questions for theinformation they don't know.
And the people who don't askthe questions sometimes they
just know everything and theydon't need you know information,
(17:26):
but most of the time it's thatthey don't understand whatever.
It is enough to ask thequestion, or they're nervous to
ask the question in the firstplace.
And so I'm right there with you.
I always want people on my team, or really just anywhere in my
orbit, to know that they can askme questions and it's going to
be safe and they're not going tofeel any kind of shame tied to
that.
Sarah Caminiti (17:44):
Well, that's it too, though, for a customer.
Think about that for a second.
Like, if you are creating aspace for your team where they
feel safe to ask questions, theyare then going to make sure
that a customer feels safe toask questions, and, yeah, the
goal is that the customer is notgoing to need to get to that
point in time where they can nolonger be successful on their
(18:04):
own.
I mean, that's the dream, butyou want them to know.
Whatever question they have,it's a good question, and you're
here and you're going tosupport them and do whatever it
is that you need to do to getthem to what they were trying to
do in the first place.
Priscilla (18:20):
Yeah, without any embarrassment too.
They're not going to get anykind of pushback, or.
I know I asked this a couplemonths ago and I don't
understand it.
Still there's none of that.
You know we want to make surepeople know.
I know it doesn't do any goodfor anyone for the person asking
the question or the personanswering the question.
So, as I was preparing for thisepisode, I read through some of
(18:46):
your website, specifically aboutthe early days of the kindness
initiative that you put together, and now you know Epical
Operations, and this quote stoodout to me and so I wanted to
read it.
Let's not be naive.
Being kind and saying you leadwith kindness will,
unfortunately, not get thetraction it deserves.
It's a misunderstood word andpractice.
It's the results from buildingsystems that are rooted in the
pillars of kindness that makewaves.
(19:07):
You can't tell people to bekind, especially when they don't
understand the value of itspower.
So I thought it'd be cool forus to kind of transition into
talking about the power ofkindness and how we can harness
that power, specifically whenwe're talking about customer
support and driving theseremarkable customer experiences
(19:27):
with your team.
So how have you, sarah, seenkindness and leadership impact
the customer experience?
Sarah Caminiti (19:35):
I think the best way to do this is to compare it
to something that actuallydoesn't work in the context that
it lives, but it really doeswork here.
So whenever I'm trying to thinkabout kindness and the way that
it works, but it really doeswork here.
So whenever I'm trying to thinkabout kindness and the way that
it works in the world, I alwaysgo back to the hilarious
attempt of wealth hoarding thatis, reaganomics and the trickle
(19:57):
down economic system where youknow the wealthy people will
just gift all of those peoplebelow them with the extra money
that they have and it'll raindown on them, which never
happened, but with kindness.
(20:24):
Kindness is one of those thingsthat touch others with kindness
and to approach situations withkindness.
And, like I said before, thatmeans being intentional and
thoughtful and purposeful.
That doesn't mean being nicethat you are present and clear
and utilizing this space in away that values yourself and
(20:50):
values the other person.
It is so powerful and beautifuland moving to see what happens
when you start to incorporatelittle, tiny acts of kindness
into your space.
I mean, look at my, the exampleof my son.
That is the perfect example ofit right there, that kindness.
(21:11):
He is kinder at home he is.
He is happier to not just be onhis tablet.
He wants to play, he wants topaint, he wants to do all of
these things, hang out with hislittle brother, because he felt
that kindness during his day atschool.
And so, starting with somethingsmall and I make it a point to a
few times a week, sometimesevery day, depends on the
(21:33):
situation, but no matter what, Iam letting everybody that I
lead know that I'm thankful forthem and that's a quick message
on Slack, on Teams, on whateverit is that you use.
Hey, I want you to know you'redoing a great job.
I'm so happy that you're here.
That's it.
Like I can remember messagesrare as they were in previous
(21:54):
spaces today, like I canremember where I was sitting, I
can, which tells you how rare itwas, that it was like this,
like humongous deal, I know, butwhy does it need to be
something that has that kind ofa game changing impact on you,
when they just took this passivemoment to say thanks?
(22:15):
Like why don't you want someoneto feel that like high all the
time?
Priscilla (22:20):
All the time.
Well, and also, it's kind oflike you never want someone to
come to you and say, how do youfeel about how I'm working or
how do you feel about me beingon the team, and then you go oh,
I love it and I didn't make youknow this, like I didn't do a
good job of making sure you knewit.
I, for some reason like this,caused you to question it.
For whatever reason, you neverwant that to be the outcome that
(22:43):
someone comes to you and says,hey, I don't feel valued when
you're like I do, value you somuch I need to be doing a better
job of communicating that toyou.
That's you know.
Just, I never want anyone toquestion it, ever.
It's like the saying hurt people, hurt people.
We've heard that it's like theopposite of that.
Right, it's like kind peopleare kind people.
You know, yes, if you're kindto the people on your team, if
(23:06):
you foster a space for them toask questions, to feel safe, to
try new things, without all ofthis you know management and
breathing down your neck and allof that then they're going to
turn around and be kind to yourcustomers, which is ultimately
what you want, because they'rethe ones working directly with
your customers.
You want them to be kind, butalso, just in their life,
(23:28):
they're going to be kinderpeople because they're in a
healthier work environment.
I have had some pretty bad workenvironments and in those times
of my life I was not a kindperson and it's crazy now, when
you're working in a healthy workenvironment, when you realize,
wow, I am nicer, I'm kinder, Ihave more empathy and more grace
for people because I'm gettingthat myself.
(23:48):
It's a huge, huge, huge part ofleadership.
Sarah Caminiti (23:52):
Isn't that?
Just when you think about it,when you reflect on your journey
and the way that you presentedyourself, the way that you
viewed the world, the way thatyou entered into any space, the
impact that others have,especially like your boss, your
self-worth and your ability tovalue you as a human being, and
(24:18):
what that does, and the amountof time that it takes to like
climb out of that hole?
It is the most justdiscouraging thing to think
about the amount of wasted timepeople have to deal with in
order to find a place if theyever do where they're able to
feel empowered and valued andjust treated with respect
(24:39):
because they're a human beingand sometimes you don't even
realize when you're in thatspace, that oh you usually don't
.
Priscilla (24:46):
And so it's.
I mean, for me.
It wasn't until I look backthat I went wow, I really for
those.
For that stretch of time I wasreally unhappy and I didn't even
realize it.
Or, you know, I was always inarguments with people and I
didn't know where that wascoming from and it is crazy how
much that can have an impact onyou without your knowledge,
without even knowing it.
One thing we say you know a lotat BuzzFront Support is we're
(25:07):
happy to help.
I mean, obviously, the name ofthe podcast is happy to help.
It's a pretty common phrase incustomer support but it's funny
because we actually are happy tohelp.
It's like I think it's calledlike the helper's high, it's
like a runner's high.
When you're helping someoneelse, when you're being kind to
someone and giving that off, itmakes you feel better.
So it's kind of like weactually are happy to help you.
(25:29):
When we're helping you, whenwe're kind to you a customer or
someone on your team that makesyou feel better.
You know there's all thesestudies around it.
You're releasing endorphins,you're like all of these things
are working to actually make youfeel better when you're kinder
to people and I just love likethinking through that like this
is actually like a science thingthat when we are kind we feel
(25:51):
better and the person we'rebeing kind to they feel better.
Sarah Caminiti (25:54):
Yes, and then they will go on in their day and
be kind hopefully you know, insome way shape or form to
someone else.
Priscilla (26:01):
Pass it along.
But you know, sometimeskindness does not come naturally
to people, I mean for us.
Sometimes we have to work at it.
I know it's definitelyespecially coming out of like a
difficult work experience andthen coming into where I am now,
like the transition time can betough.
So when new people come on yourteam and they're not used to
that kind of environment, it canbe hard to make that transition
(26:23):
into kindness.
Do you have any tips, sarah,for people who are trying to
figure out how to foster thatkindness mentality when you're
leading a team of people, whenthere's someone maybe new or
someone struggling with that,what kind of tips do you have
for them?
Sarah Caminiti (26:39):
I'm so glad that you brought this up because,
especially working in support, Ithink there is so much trauma
from past experiences and it isa very, very hard thing to break
through unless you arecommitted to it from the
interview stage and you have toset the tone from the very
beginning of who you are, howyou lead and what your
(27:01):
expectations are.
And the best way to do that isyou've got to build a foundation
.
You've got to build afoundation of trust, you have to
build a foundation ofinclusivity, and that happens
through facts, and the only waythat you can get facts like that
and prove your value is byproving yourself to them from
(27:22):
the very beginning.
One of the things that I havecome across is context is nuts
Like.
Context is like kind of theroot of anything and everything,
and we usually don't spendenough time to ask questions to
understand context.
In many situations, even insupport, we don't have the
(27:44):
ability sometimes to understandcontext which is the biggest
like mistake you can make,because someone could be
presenting something in one wayand it is something totally
different, and then you'rereally just wasting time because
you have to go back and startfresh once you understand things
a little bit more.
Same's true on your team, and ifyou are having them enter into
(28:06):
this space, everybody's alreadynervous and excited and anxious
when they join a new company.
You have invited them into yourspace and how do you treat your
guests?
You treat your guests withkindness and you treat them with
respect and you give them a layof the land, the tour of the
house, and if you are that house, what are they going to learn
about who you are?
And the best way to do thisI've found is to write it down.
(28:30):
Miro has a really cool templatethat has these four different
boxes of how you approachteamwork, how you approach work
in general, how you communicate.
There's one other one that Ican't remember and I should have
looked this up before thepodcast.
Jordan (28:45):
We can find a link to that for the show notes.
Sarah Caminiti (28:47):
Yes, Okay, good, thank you, great idea.
I love this.
But you just kind of dump itall in there, and not only does
(29:09):
this provide context of whatthey should expect when they
enter into situations with you.
Go about it this way.
If you've made a mistake andI've already explained, I am
doing this from a place ofcuriosity and sincerity, there's
no malice behind it I want tounderstand where in this journey
things kind of went off courseor went south.
Yeah, because it's my job for itnot to happen and I know that
(29:30):
you are doing your best.
So how can we make it so thatyou don't find yourself in these
situations in the future?
If I already have that inwriting, that I've shared with
them, that we've hadconversations about it, then if
I do it and they're like whoa,whoa, whoa, what are you doing?
Asking me this question, thenyou can be like hey, hey, hey,
(29:50):
hold on, hold on.
Remember, this is how we figurethis stuff out together, like
this is a journey together, andthen you can have those
conversations where you thendon't have to explain all of
this extra stuff about yourapproach and about why you go
about things in certain ways,and start talking about that
during the interview.
I usually just talk for like 30minutes when I'm interviewing
(30:15):
someone for my team, of therealities of the situation and
this is how you spend your time.
This is what I expect from you.
I expect you to brainstorm withme.
I expect you to.
You know, push back if youdon't think something's right,
but then give me what you thinkthe solution is.
Support is an interesting spacebecause we are presented with
(30:36):
problems constantly.
Everything is a problem, and soit's not like with a lot of
these project planning teamswhere you never can present a
solution.
You always have to present theproblem.
We get hit with the problem allthe time.
We have to connect the dots toa lot of problems and then we
come up with solutions, usuallybecause we're scrappy, but
(30:57):
sometimes because we're going topresent it to the product team,
and that's how our brain works.
So we are capable, more capablethan a lot of other folks.
I feel to be solutions-drivenfolk and come up with very
creative ways to go aboutsituations, and I want to just
(31:17):
lean into that on my team asmuch as I can, and so that
expectation is clear.
Boundaries are clear when we goto, when you get here with a
customer and they are treatingyou in such and such a way.
If you feel this, and even ifthere's nothing that is obvious,
if something inside of you justfeels a little off that you
don't feel great aboutcontinuing this conversation
(31:38):
with a customer, it's mine.
Pass it to me.
That is not yours to deal with.
You deserve respect.
You deserve kindness and if acustomer is doing anything that
feels weird, that's myresponsibility, not yours.
You don't have to take that.
No, no, take that weight.
Understand what someone'spurpose is on that team.
(31:59):
Make sure they understand whattheir purpose is on this team
and what your purpose is on thisteam.
And if you are a leader thathas decided to test out this
whole new way of doing things, Ithink that's the first thing
you have to assess.
What do you know?
What do you not know and whydon't you know it?
And what is your purpose?
(32:20):
Can you define your purpose forthe people that you lead, for
managing up for the customers,for the other departments?
Do you understand therelationships you have with
other departments and whatthey're expecting from you?
If you don't ask questions,then you are choosing to have
gray area.
(32:41):
You are choosing for your teamto have ambiguity.
You are choosing to not valuetheir success enough to bring
clarity in any way that youpossibly can.
And it is time consuming and itis work and it is manual, but
what you will gain from that isa level of confidence in
yourself and your space andempowerment to then provide that
(33:04):
empowerment to those that youlead, who will then provide that
empowerment to the customers.
Priscilla (33:09):
Right, that's amazing To the customers right.
Well, and it's you were sayingabout, like when there's an
angry customer Right and youwant to make sure everyone on
your team knows that, as soon asthey feel uncomfortable with it
, they can pass it to you.
Someone who's coming into yourteam from a environment where
that was not the case, Give themtwo or three times where you
follow through on that and youactually take it from them and
(33:32):
they will start to realize ohwait, she's not just saying this
, she's actually followingthrough with it.
Like I am actually safe, Likeit might take a little time for
someone to get comfortable andrealize that oh, you're saying
this, but you actually mean it.
Sarah Caminiti (33:44):
Well, and you do it, you have to go in.
That's another that I'm so gladyou brought that up, because
when people are nervous likethat, when they've not been in
these environments before, theirgauge of what is respectful and
what is not respectful and whatis appropriate and what is not
appropriate is messed up.
It is not.
It needs to be recalibrated.
Priscilla (34:04):
Yeah, and you have to do that, so you have to be
proactive about it.
Sarah Caminiti (34:08):
Yeah, In my last job maybe a little bit overkill
for a lot of people, but Imanually QA'd every single
ticket, every single ticket thatcame in.
I scrutinized and I pulledtrends, I pulled opportunities
for knowledge-based articles,sales marketing, anything that I
could extract.
Because there's so much data inthere and it was time consuming
(34:29):
, but it made me better andbecause I was looking at
everything at all times, I wasable to say hey, when you talk
to this customer, why didn't youcome and get me?
That's not okay that he was soshort with you, or why did you
have to explain yourself sixtimes to this person?
We all know and support youjust dump a title on something
(34:52):
I'm sorry if this is industrysecrets.
You put a title on yourself,say the exact same thing that
someone else has been saying,that they refuse to accept, and
suddenly it is that ticket ofgreatness and everything they
could ever need in life in aninstant.
Priscilla (35:08):
I've never done that, ever, never, never.
Sarah Caminiti (35:10):
Neither have I.
Priscilla (35:10):
I've never done that, ever, never, never, neither
have I.
It is funny Early, early yearsof doing support for me I was,
you know, one person doingsupport, and when people didn't
believe me, I would make my namePatrick and then they would
believe me.
Sarah Caminiti (35:25):
The beauty of being a woman in this world, we
could have a whole otherconversation about that.
Priscilla (35:31):
Oh, I know, but it's so important, like being
proactive as the leader andlooking for those, especially
when they're new and they don'tknow that they have the freedom
to pass that kind of stuff ontoyou.
Like, if you're coming from aplace where you're used to just
absorbing that kind of treatmentin a support role, you're not
going to think, oh, this is asituation where I can send this
(35:52):
on to the person who's leadingme, and so it really is
important, as the leader, to goand be proactive about finding
that and actually practicingwhat you preach and making sure
that they know that this istruly something that you want to
take from them.
Sarah Caminiti (36:05):
it's not just that it's possible, but that you
want to be the one that absorbsthat exactly, it makes a big
difference and it's a littleyeah, it is a little act and it
carries a lot of weight.
Priscilla (36:14):
And I think another thing, too, that's really good
to remember when you're leadinga team and kindness is a driving
factor is reminding your teamto be kind to themselves.
Yes, I think you know, insupport specifically, we do so
much, pouring out of empathy andpouring out of kindness and
patience and grace, and I dothink it's important to remind
people that they need to be kindto themselves in that too, and
(36:37):
part of that is passing on anemail to someone in leadership
because it's not kind toyourself to keep working with
this person, or maybe it'staking a break in a certain way
and giving yourself, you know, aweek vacation to.
You know, restore your mentalempathy reserve, you know that
kind of thing.
I do think it's reallyimportant that we remember that
we're talking about kindness forpeople on our team, kindness
(36:59):
for our customers, that we alsowant to make sure we're talking
about kindness for ourselves,too, and having grace for
ourselves.
Sarah Caminiti (37:05):
Yeah, support's hard.
Support is so hard and it issomething that I mean I still
struggle with actually takingtime off.
Priscilla (37:14):
So do I.
Sarah Caminiti (37:15):
And taking the time off With my new job.
I didn't put anything on myphone for a reason to establish
that boundary.
Priscilla (37:22):
So healthy.
Sarah Caminiti (37:23):
It's so healthy and it's so necessary.
I do sometimes pull it up onSafari.
Priscilla (37:27):
But it's still putting more roadblocks.
It's putting more roadblocks inthere.
You're not just checking itright away.
You actually have to beintentional on the like little
notification thing, but it is.
Sarah Caminiti (37:38):
I mean, what is?
I feel like there's like all ofthose like live, laugh, love
things out there about, uh,about like loving yourself.
But the weird thing about thatis it's like just because how
are you supposed to find thatspace for yourself to treat
(38:02):
yourself well and love yourselfand be proud of yourself for the
work that you're doing?
And that's why leadership issuch an important thing to have
success in.
It carries a role that impactsevery corner of somebody's life.
Jordan (38:23):
Yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (38:23):
And it's a mentorship role.
I read parenting books and itgives me tips for how to
approach leadership situations,because sometimes learning how
to have hard conversations aboutboundaries or about mistakes
with a toddler gives you so muchclarity on why things have not
(38:43):
been successful when you've beentrying to establish boundaries
with others, because it's veryblack and white and you're
usually trying to overcomplicateit and you're not saying what
you want to say.
You're saying what you thinkyou're supposed to say, and all
of that plays into being proudof yourself and celebrating
yourself.
And if you have a leader thatis celebrating you or a leader
(39:05):
that is saying, hey, you seemlike you're a little bit
distracted.
What's going on?
Oh, you've got your kids hometoday.
One of them's sick.
Why didn't you tell me Justtake the afternoon off, let me
know if you need anything.
This is not like that's life.
Life is a heck of a lot moreimportant than work, and you
(39:28):
can't do work well if you've gotstuff going on outside of work.
And it's another thing that Idrive home in the interviews.
It is I don't want you here ifyou're stressed or you're not
feeling well, if you've gotthings that are going on in your
life.
Not because I don't think thatyou would do your job well or
you're not taking up a qualityamount of work or anything like
that.
It's because what does that doto you?
(39:49):
That's not fair.
You need to be able to be allin at work, just like you should
be able to be all in at home,and that's boundaries and you
have to establish that andremind it and teach it and live
it as a leader.
Priscilla (40:04):
Otherwise you're just paying lip service that context
is knowing the people on yourteam and knowing the customers
(40:25):
that are writing into you andhaving that kind of an
understanding.
I mean, in my early years ofleading, having people on my
team that I, you know, it's kindof the idea of say, hey, let's
jump on a call.
And then, as a person who getsanxious about these kind of
things, if that was someonesaying let's jump on my leader,
saying let's jump on a call, Iwould go, oh my gosh, what did I
do wrong?
I'm going to get fired?
Yeah, this is not going to begood.
(40:45):
And I remember, as in my earlyyears of leading a team, I would
say, hey, let's jump on a call,just so you know this is a good
thing, no need to stress out.
And they would be like, oh mygosh, you don on your team and
how that kind of a hey, let'sjump on a call is going to
(41:11):
affect them.
And tailoring the way you leadthem a little bit, specifically
because you know them and you'reknown by them.
And the same thing it appliesto customers and knowing the
kind of people that are usingyour service, the kind of people
like we.
You know we work in podcasting,so knowing that the people who
are creating podcasts onBuzzsprout they're working a lot
of times on their own in a silo.
They're not in a big team.
(41:31):
Sometimes they are, butsometimes they're not.
And so having that contextallows us to serve them better,
because we can be that team forthem.
And once they know that we'rethere for them, it makes the
interaction so much better andso much more personal.
And having that context aboutyour team, about your customers,
is so important and reallyfosters the ability to provide a
(41:52):
remarkable experience forsomeone on your team or someone
using your product.
Sarah Caminiti (41:57):
Oh, I agree 100% , and the impact that support
has on a brand is not celebratedenough.
Jordan (42:07):
I mean, we could have when.
Sarah Caminiti (42:07):
I was making my notes I kept putting like oh,
this could be seven episodes oh,maybe we can do a follow-up one
on this one.
But the series with Sarah, Ilove it.
But we have so many productsthat exist that do the exact
same thing, and we've got thingslike Reddit, we've got things
(42:34):
like LinkedIn, instagram, all ofthose places.
Then you've got like glass doorreviews about the employee
experience.
There's a bajillion ways tounderstand what the key
takeaways are as an actualcustomer and just like with
metrics and surveys and CSATs,you are either getting somebody
that's angry and that wants tobe loud and angry and never
(42:54):
usually provides the context ofthe realities of the situation,
but still they're allowed to beangry and feel all the big
feelings Right.
And then there's the otherpeople.
Those are the people that youmade such an impact and it's
usually for doing something assimple as I forgot my password
that they want to celebrate you.
(43:15):
It's seeing those sorts ofexperiences and seeing like I
lost my email address and I wasso stressed because I was not
going to be able to do this formy job, or I couldn't get on a
plane to go and see my mom forher birthday because I couldn't
access this, like we forget thelives of the people that we are
(43:36):
interacting with and support,just like leaders so often
prevent themselves fromrealizing the lives of the
people that are on their team.
And if we allow ourselves to bereminded that we are people we
are all just people that aretrying to succeed.
And no one wants to write intosupport.
I mean, I do like writing intoBuzzsprout, but that's probably
(44:02):
just because we're going to besitting.
Taylor Swift gifts.
Priscilla (44:04):
We're going to be sitting in pictures of my kids
dancing to Taylor Swift.
Sarah Caminiti (44:07):
There's a thief.
But really, like, you have tobe vulnerable.
You have to be vulnerable toreach out to support when you
don't know when you're going toget an answer.
You don't know what that answeris going to be, and so if
someone is able to provide youwith a level of service that not
only meets your needs butusually because they're able to
(44:27):
pause and look at the entiresituation give you what you need
to answer those questions thatyou did not anticipate you were
going to have.
But it completes the picturefor you to do what you need to
do and does it in a way whereyou feel proud of yourself at
the end of it for doing this onyour own, and also safe to come
back and ask a follow-upquestion.
Holy crap, like you have doneyour job well, and there are so
(44:53):
many great teams out there thatare doing this over and over and
over and over again, and it isso important to recognize that,
because that's something tocelebrate.
Priscilla (45:04):
And that's where the brand loyalty comes in right,
because when you write in andyou have a personal connection
with the person who is helpingyou log in or helping you make
that flight, when you know thatthat person on the other side of
the email or on the other sideof the phone call, when they
care about you and they'retreating you with kindness, you
see that whole company, thatwhole product, that whole
service as caring about you,because that one person did it.
(45:27):
And that's where the brandloyalty comes in and that's
where the differentiator betweencompanies that do the same kind
of thing comes in, because youknow that with that service or
that company or that team, theycare about you, they're treating
you well, they're treating youwith kindness.
That team, they care about you,they're treating you well,
they're treating you withkindness.
And the only way that someoneon your team is going to be able
to do that is if you, as aleader, are leading them with
(45:49):
that same kind of kindness andthat same kind of empathy and
understanding and knowing themand allowing them to know you.
And I just think it's soimportant and I think it's not
talked about enough, and so I'mreally happy that we have had
this conversation about it.
You know, when I was workingthrough the outline, I wanted to
get into more about how to findjobs that foster this kind of
(46:12):
environment, but I think that'sprobably going to be an episode
for another time because we'vejust had such a good
conversation about this and Ireally appreciate you coming on,
sarah and being here.
So now I want to transition intoour support in real life
segment.
Oh, here we are in support inreal life and Sarah's still with
(46:33):
us, which is really fun.
So usually at the end of everyepisode, sarah, we will talk
about either a question from alistener or a question that we
find online, or a story from alistener or a real life support
story, and we kind of spend afew minutes talking about it.
So I'm really excited thatyou're going to stick around
with us for this segment.
Me, too, I was reading asupport driven Slack channel
(46:55):
yesterday and came across thisquestion and thought this would
be a really cool one for you totalk about, specifically because
I think you'll have some reallygreat advice.
So yesterday in this supportdriven Slack channel, someone
named Sarah asked what are someprofessional development courses
or events that you wouldrecommend to a new support
specialist interested in growingtheir skills?
Do you want to kick us off withsome tips?
Sarah Caminiti (47:18):
Yes, yes, I love this and I've had a lot of
conversations with a lot offolks about this very thing,
because it is really hard tofind places that totally let you
level up in support.
There's nothing black and whiteabout it.
It is something usually thatyou have to figure out on your
journey for a lot of theseskills that you take with you.
(47:39):
But the best thing that you canpossibly do is find the
community that fits your space.
And there are so many likesupport driven.
Priscilla and I wereunbeknownst to us at the same.
Support driven expo the onlyones either have us have ever
gone to.
Priscilla (47:56):
Yeah five years ago, so random yeah.
Sarah Caminiti (48:00):
But they are places that remind us that we're
not alone and that thequestions and the worries and
the frustrations that we have,everybody is experiencing those,
and talk about a group ofpeople that creates a safe space
.
Elevate CX is one of the mostpowerful sources of knowledge,
(48:24):
of support, of empowerment thatI have ever come across, and I
am so proud to be active in thatcommunity and get to know these
people.
That are just the specialistpeople.
Most of them have been guestson the podcast If they haven't
been on there for one that Ihave released yet, it will be
(48:44):
happening because I've got themall recorded and Elevate has a
couple of events a year and theyare very focused on just making
you the best that you can be inyour job and realizing the
realities of your job.
And right now I'm working withSarah Hatter, who is the founder
of Elevate, on an event inLondon that I'm going to be
(49:05):
talking about in November.
So much fun and I'm taking oversome of the masterclass hosting
duties for her, which is goingto be a blast, and so if any of
the listeners have things thatthey would like to hear in the
masterclass, like Priscilla said, I did one on boundaries.
I also did one on starting acareer in support.
Like Priscilla said, I did oneon boundaries.
I also did one on starting acareer in support.
There's ones on data andmetrics and all sorts of things.
(49:26):
So if you go to the Elevate CXwebsite, you can find all of
those masterclasses.
Those are just real peopletalking about the realities of
the situation and they're notjust, you know, blowing smoke up
your butt, and if you have anyquestions, you just reach out to
them.
Yeah, and then they reply.
Priscilla (49:42):
Yeah, and we can link those videos too in the
episode's description so that ifyou are listening to this and
looking for that, you can get toit easily.
I think when I started doingsupport, it was brand new to me.
I didn't come from a placewhere I had done this kind of
support before and I felt veryin a silo and not knowing where
to find these kind of resources.
(50:03):
And so I just think about eightyears ago, if I hadn't had
these, it would have been somuch more just helpful in
growing those skills.
And so I'm you know, I'mexcited that people listening to
this.
That's part of the reason whywe wanted to start this podcast
in the first place is because Iwanted to be able to share with
people that are in the boat Iwas in and give them a way to
(50:24):
like grow their skills in a verytangible way.
And one thing I'll say too iswhen you're looking for these
kind of resources to grow yourskills, it doesn't all have to
be within the world of customersupport.
You might find that you want togrow your writing skill, and so
you might go find a masterclass.
That's not even about supportwriting, but about creative
writing to grow that skill.
(50:46):
Or maybe you find that youreally need to work on your
patience and your empathy andthat that needs to be more
natural.
So you look for something likethat.
It doesn't have to be withinthe bubble of support, it can be
outside of that and that canreally help you grow in your
support skills as well, oh, whata great point.
Sarah Caminiti (51:02):
Because I mean, what is support?
Support is communication,that's it.
That's what it is.
It is, how can I communicateeffectively?
Priscilla (51:09):
So simple.
The end, that's it.
Do I have the resources to?
Sarah Caminiti (51:11):
communicate effectively, and that's it, and
that is something that does notjust live in support, it does
live elsewhere, and there's alot of really cool things that
do exist.
But Elevate is a great place tostart.
I do have to agree with you,priscilla.
I too spent years not utilizingthe resources around me because
we are so in this, like we are,so like all in, like we are, we
(51:34):
can't breathe, we can't come upfor air, usually when we are
starting in support, especiallyif you're by yourself- in a
support team or in a small team.
it's so hard to come up for airGetting through the day like the
thought of like going andasking a question what, no,
that's that didn't even cross mymind until, honestly, like a
year and a half ago it was 20years or like answering the
(51:58):
question Wait a second, I mighthave knowledge that someone
might find use.
Wait what?
Priscilla (52:05):
No way.
Sarah Caminiti (52:05):
And so it's you know more than you realize.
Always you have to trustyourself, yeah, and you have to
be vulnerable.
And once you can get to thatspace, find yourself a community
like Elevate CX.
Find yourself an event like theone in Denver or the one in
London that's going to be comingup next year.
I'm also going to be puttingtogether a women's summit, so be
(52:26):
on the lookout for that.
But we are cheerleaders, it isour job and we want everyone
that is in this field to besuccessful, and we will figure
out a way to make sure you'resuccessful.
So just find us.
We're here.
I love it.
Priscilla (52:39):
Well, thank you for sharing that and remember, if
you're listening and you want toshare your stories or a
question, you can email us athappy to help at buzzsproutcom,
or you can text the show throughthe link in our description
that says like send a message tothe show Before we wrap up.
Sarah, how can our listenersfind you?
Where would you like to pointthem?
Sarah Caminiti (52:58):
Yes, please find me.
I would love to hear fromanybody, especially if it's
someone that's curious aboutkindness and leadership, whether
it be in customer support orotherwise.
Yeah, I have a podcast, epicalGrowth.
Like Priscilla said, it isthrough Buzzsprout.
You can find it atepicalgrowthbuzzsproutcom or
anywhere that you are listeningto your podcast.
(53:18):
I also have a YouTube page.
I've become a little obsessivewith pulling clips that
highlight the incredible wordsof wisdom that the folks that
gift me with their time on theshow share with the listeners,
and I want to make sure thatthey're able to see how wise
they are and we don't just glazeover it because they say some
pretty remarkable things.
(53:38):
And you don't have an hourbecause I'm a talker if you
haven't noticed some prettyremarkable things.
And you don't have an hourbecause I'm a talker if you
haven't noticed to spendlistening to the show.
Find those nuggets and we will.
We will cheer you on in littleone minute clips.
But also, I'm on LinkedIn.
Find me on LinkedIn, follow me,connect with me.
Usually, if you do follow me, Iwill connect with you because I
think it's weird that I wouldnot also want to know you.
(54:01):
If you want to know me and sayhi, or find me on Elevate.
I'm around and I'm happy tohelp.
Priscilla (54:10):
Awesome, and I love that You're happy to help, sure.
Thank you so much for beinghere, sarah.
This has been really great.
I'm so happy that I got to come.
Thank you for having me, yeah,and Epical Growth is great.
So if you're looking for morepodcasts to learn either
leadership or customer support,go listen to Epical Growth and
subscribe.
Share that with people, shareyour thoughts and your feedback
(54:31):
with Sarah, because it's reallyhelpful.
As you know, a new podcaster Iknow I speak for myself and
Jordan, but you know probablyfor Sarah too that it's really
nice to hear feedback frompeople about what works, what
doesn't, what you're enjoying,so that we can kind of help
provide content that you'reenjoying and learning from.
So that's it for today'sepisode.
I hope you've enjoyed it andcan go into, you know, your work
(54:55):
week leading with kindness andinteracting with your customers
with kindness.
I want to thank Sarah Caminitiagain for joining us on today's
episode, and thank you toeveryone for listening.
Now go and make someone's day.
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