August 5, 2025 • 56 mins
Ever wonder what happens when those too-good-to-be-true solar promises fall apart? In this eye-opening conversation with attorney Neil Prevost, we pull back the curtain on the solar industry's shadowy side. Whether you're exploring solar options or already experiencing problems with your system, this conversation provides essential insights that could save you from becoming another cautionary tale.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another edition of the Harman Solar
Podcast.
I'm Rob Fromano, vp of Salesand Marketing at Harman Solar,
and with me, as always, is MrEverything Ben Walschlager.
See, I just left it there thistime.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You just left it there, no friend or anything.
I just left it alone.
I like it.
So, Ben, we know what we'regoing to do today.
This is a very special podcastslash Zoomcast.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Yeah, this is something that.
I don't think anybody wouldwant to do.
We want to do it because ofwhat we do.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We always talk about the good, bad, the ugly in the
industry, so let's talk aboutboth of those.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Right, so maybe you've been on Facebook or
you've been on social media andyou see these ads from Prevost
Law Firm.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's funny because as soon as we started this podcast
, I opened up my Facebook andsure enough it came up Came
right up.
Right, it's right there, Cameright up.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You see these ads from Prevost Law Firm helping
people with solar that maybe gota bad deal or something bad
went on, or maybe the installeris out of business.
Whatever it is, we've beenseeing these ads and so we've
reached out to Neil.
What we have today is NeilPrevost from Prevost Law Firm in
the Dallas, texas, area.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Neil, how are you doing?
Thank you for joining us.
I'm doing awesome.
Thank you, guys for having meon.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We are excited to have you on to get your
perspective of what you'reseeing in the industry.
I know you're dealing with alot of customers I'm assuming
you're dealing with.
I know you're dealing withpeople in Texas, yes, but I'm
assuming you're dealing withpeople around the country.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We are.
There's four states.
The state bar rules allow youto practice in a state
temporarily, that is, withoutbeing licensed there and without
an office there, if you'redoing private arbitrations and
mediations.
There are four states thatdon't have that rule, and that's
Florida, south Carolina,louisiana and California.
So I could be in 46 states, butwe're currently in about 10,
(01:50):
mostly throughout the South andthe Sun Belt Arizona, nevada,
new Mexico, colorado, texas,oklahoma, georgia, south
Carolina, north Carolina excuseme and then a smattering of
Maryland, pennsylvania and a fewothers.
But yeah, we're able to do itpretty much nationwide.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I would say what you're focused on is you're
probably talking about solarcontract disputes, things like
that, right?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Most of our focus is on when the lender not the
lender the seller has gone outof business and has left the
customer holding the bag on a 10to out.
In y'all's area, the big one'sTitan who gave a 25-year
installation warranty, and sothe customers are left.
You know, 18 months in they'releft holding the bag on 90% of
(02:37):
the warranty.
So most of my clients have hadtheir solar installer go out of
business.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Wow yeah, we see that a lot.
That's a big number.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Think about it.
It's Titan Pink Power.
I mean there's lots and lots offolks that have gone out of
business, which impresses meabout y'all, because most people
don't make it three years, andI think how long y'all been
doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, 50 years.
This is our 50th anniversary.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay.
Well then I would say thaty'all are beyond that danger
zone of going out of business.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, what we do different is we're more
diversified, right, soresidential solar is a part of
our business.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not our whole business Right.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
We do commercial solar, we do commercial
electrical, we have a serviceindustry.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, so it's helped and that's why we've been around
for so long, but it's a goodpoint.
One of our taglines is we'vebeen around longer than our
warranties, I mean, and no oneelse can say that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Absolutely that's, and that's a huge selling point.
If, when consumers especiallythe old, the disabled, the
people on fixed incomes they'rebuying solar in order to fix
their expenses over time, andeven if they just get into it at
a breakeven circumstance, it'sokay, then because as the price
(03:51):
of electricity goes up over time, they save more and more money
and they've fixed their expenses.
The difficulty comes when theirseller goes out of business and
all of a sudden they'reresponsible for replacing three
panels or 10 panels or three, ora new inverter or a new micro
inverter or whatever.
Whatever goes out, you knowthey then bear that expense and
(04:15):
they can't afford it.
So it's especially thesewarranties are especially
important to the people who areon fixed incomes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, we get a lot of those calls because in our
industry, as you mentioned, alot of companies have gone out
of business.
So they, you know, they go onGoogle and they type in you know
solar companies in Arizona andpop up and they, that's their
complaints.
They say, hey, my company wentout of business, I don't know
about my warranties orsomething's not working, my
bills are high, can help.
So obviously we feel thosecalls but we have to have that
(04:46):
heart to heart with them.
Say, like you know, we can takecare of, like the manufacturer,
warranties on the equipment,but as far as your workmanship
warranty, from your installeryeah, I'm sorry but that's there
that's they're out of luck.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
yeah, well, and and see.
Now that is where I would comein, because the holder rule,
which is what I sue under, Igenerally sue only the lenders
and there's a rule, there's alittle piece of you know words,
there's a paragraph in each oneof these contracts that says
(05:20):
that the lender can be sued forthe sins of the seller if you
will, and you can hold themaccountable for that.
Now, all that you don't getcold hard cash.
You get a credit against thebalance of the loan, but like,
let's say, some I had one.
They wanted $3,000 to replacethree panels, which may or not
(05:40):
be an outrageous amount, I don'tknow for sure.
That might be perfectly fine.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That seems right.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's very high.
Okay, Well, that was what thequote was and I said, well, look
, all we can do is, if you paythe money, I can then petition
to have you know you get creditfor that on the loan.
And that was about as good aswe could do.
But yeah, it leaves them reallyhigh and dry.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, I'm sure you have lots of horror stories in
this industry.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, the good ones don't call me, I only hear the
bad ones, right, if they love it.
My phone doesn't ring.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right, your best case scenario is I don't ever want
to hear from you again yes,exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So are you?
Would you say that most of thepeople that are reaching out to
you it's because of the example.
Like you said, titan, out ofbusiness, things like that.
That's your number one.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Most of it.
I mean, and look, thesalespeople promise the
improbable and then theconsumers left to try to figure
it out whether or not they'retelling the truth.
And so, you know, someoneknocks on your door.
They come to the door and say,hey, how would you like to never
pay another electricity bill,and of course that sounds great.
(06:54):
So then the whole deal startsand you know, three or four
hours later they've signed acontract for $40,000 or $50,000
to install solar on their house.
And I think a lot of people Ihear from a lot of people when
they realize that the UCC lienhas to be paid when they sell
(07:18):
their house.
That's a big deal that a lot ofpeople don't understand.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I want to touch a little bit on.
So you have a shady salespersonwho comes and says, hey, you'll
never pay a bill.
What can the homeowner dolegally?
Because I know in the contractthat they signed it doesn't say
anything about savings or whattheir future bills are going to
be like.
But if the salesperson said itturns into a, he said she said
(07:44):
thing, do homeowners have anyground to stand on when a
salesperson says you'll neverpay a bill, just sign here on
the dotted line?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well, every state, including Arizona, has a
deceptive trade practice statuteand what those statutes do is I
mean, if you go by the strictwords of the contract, the
contract says what it says.
You know we're not making youany promises, we didn't.
You know we're not giving anyadvice or anything like that.
However, the statute makes it aviolation of the statute if you
(08:20):
misrepresent to the consumerthe benefits or provisions of a
contract.
So it's a standalone lawsuitabout what you said that doesn't
have anything to do with thecontract.
So every state it's called theDeceptive Trade Practices Act.
I think it's the Arizona UnfairConsumer UCP.
(08:47):
I think that I'll look it up,but the you know Arizona has its
own version of the act and itmakes it actionable, and what I
mean by that is you can sue ifthey lie to you about the
effects of a contract and whatyou're signing, the effects of a
contract and what you'resigning.
So yes, they've got, and youknow it's pretty robust in most
(09:15):
states including Arizona.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And let me see what the statute of limitations is.
I think every sales rep needsto hear that what you say can be
held.
You know.
Absolutely, it can be usedagainst you to court a law?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah, it's the Arizona Consumer Fraud Act, acfa
, and that statute is whatprohibits, you know, fraud and
misrepresentation in the sale oradvertisement of merchandise.
You know false advertising,bait and switch tactics,
misrepresenting a product'scharacteristics, all of that
(09:48):
kind of stuff is I mean, it'seven I mean it's a pretty broad
state, even like altering themileage on a vehicle's odometer
is considered an unfair act.
You know there's all kinds ofthings but bait and switch,
misrepresentations, all of that.
Oh, concealing or omittingmaterial facts, you know that's
(10:10):
failing to disclose informationabout the product or service or
about the financing thereof.
Or, you know, providing falseassurances about about how it's
going to work.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
A company went out of business.
They come to us and say, hey,my salesperson said I would
never have a bill, and now Ihave bills.
I think something's wrong withmy system.
So it's like, well, I'll take alook at your system.
But now I kind of have toresell it to them, even though
it wasn't even our sale.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I'm like, well, let me tell you the actual what's
going to happen and what yourbills should look like.
And I'm sorry that they misledyou, but here's the reality.
And obviously they get mad, butit's like I don't want to tell
you.
Do you know what the number oneresponse of most companies is?
That y'all are clearly betterthan you know what their number
one response is.
(10:58):
What is it?
Well, you didn't buy enoughpanels, Right, and they try.
You would be amazed at how manyof my clients bought a system
let's say they bought an eightkilowatt system and then they
say, well, it's not producinglike it's supposed to.
And they don't mention anythingabout all the other expenses
(11:20):
and all the other reasons.
They just say, oh well, youdidn't get enough panels.
We should have put a 10 or a 12kilowatt system.
So we just need to come out andput more panels.
And you'd be amazed at how manytimes people buy that and
actually make a secondarypurchase when the first one
didn't work.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I get those too .
People will call in with add-onsystems and I take a look at it
.
And I actually just turnedsomebody down last week because
I think they were still gettinga bill and they said I think I
need more panels.
I have the roof space for it.
I took a look at their utilitybills, all their information,
and I said you don't need more.
It's going to cause more harmthan good.
You don't need more.
Okay, what about a battery?
(12:00):
You don't need a battery either, but what you're doing is fine.
Well, I've got quotes fromthese two other companies saying
that I need more.
How much?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
do I get paid?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
when I tell you no.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Exactly, that's right .
Well, I'll tell you something Ishare with you, something I
always tell clients when I'mtrying to give them advice, and
it's like not to file a suit ornot to do this or not to do that
Anytime a lawyer gives youadvice that is taking money out
of his pocket, you should listen.
And the same is true with youIf you've got a solar
(12:31):
installation company who istelling you don't do it.
You need to listen because youknow they're clearly giving you
advice that is in your bestinterest, you know.
I mean, if you're sitting theresaying, oh, you got to.
Oh, you're right, you got space, let's do another 10 pounds
over here.
Well, who's going to make moneyfrom that?
(12:53):
Right, so that's.
But that's a very good point,and people need to be told.
You need to listen when I'mgiving you advice that takes
money out of my pocket.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yep, so true.
I want to go back to thedeceptive practice.
You were talking about that so,and obviously I know you all
know all this.
But in the industry, when wewere getting data from a
customer, putting it into aproposal tool like you talked
about Aurora Sola, whatever itis Sure and then it's giving its
projection of what it thinks itcan do for you based on that,
(13:24):
yeah, so as a salesperson, Ihand that, I hand the proposal
to the customer.
I go through it with them.
Now, those proposals may or maynot be right.
I mean honestly.
Honestly, it's it's looking atprevious usage, but it doesn't
know what usage is going tohappen from here on out, how
you're going to change yourlifestyle can change.
And so what you're originallyselling them and if I'm trying
to do an honest job and sellthem based on what their history
(13:45):
has been, it could change andmaybe not work out the way we
would hope it would, becausethey've changed.
Do you ever run into thatscenario?
Because it's hard as asalesperson to then be held
accountable to say I wasn'tdeceiving them.
They changed the way they liveand now it's not going to work
out the way it should haveworked out, the way we talked
about at the kitchen table.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I think that's a false argument on on their, on
the side of the customer, andhere's what I try to.
Here's what I try to walk themthrough.
Ok, let's say at the time youdo the proposal, their average
bill is $200 a month and thatyou're projecting $100 a month
(14:28):
savings.
Ok, let's say you're going tocut their bill in half.
Ok, well then they add a newbedroom and a pool and a hot tub
, all electric, you know, no gas, we're going to go all electric
and their bill goes up to $300a month.
But the reality is, if theystill save the $100,000, the
(14:53):
question is, did they save thehundred a month you told them
they would save?
Right, and if they saved thehundred a month that you told
them they would save, thenyou've done everything.
You haven't misled them aboutanything.
Now, when you say you'll neverhave another electricity bill,
that's different.
And they add the pool and thejacuzzi and the hot tub and the
(15:16):
extra bedroom on the house, thenthey might have some room for
it.
But you have to say, well, whenI said you'd never have another
bill, I meant the bill you werepaying at the time.
I didn't mean you could growweed in the garage with all the
lamps that it takes to grow weed.
(15:37):
I didn't expect you to start,you know, boiling meth in the
back, I mean.
So you see what I'm saying.
I just need some reality about.
We were talking about the billsyou were paying at the time and
and here's what I told you Ithought we could do and and you
know I'm sure that Charlesproposals will have sort of like
(15:58):
a percentage offset, yeah, yeah, percentage offset.
And now I want to be candidwith you.
I'll tell you where I thinksalespeople get in trouble on
Solo and Aurora and some of theother tools, tools.
(16:21):
I think they put too big anumber in the projected savings,
because there's an internalnumber that you can put into
your proposal tool about howmuch the annual increase is
going to be in your electricitycost.
If a salesperson puts 4%, thatnumber is going to look
astronomically huge.
They're going to look likethey're the smartest people in
(16:42):
the whole world.
And in Texas they generally put2.9.
And I think that's high.
I went over 15 years in Texasand the average is 2.2 increase.
So if you're going to becompletely honest and
transparent with your customers,you need to kind of talk with
(17:03):
them about that assumption.
That is an assumption in GoSolothat it's 2.9, I think Maybe
that's implemented by each salesorganization.
I don't know whether that's an.
API that y'all can adjust itdefinitely is something that the
sales company controls.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
All I would say to that is if you do, take a look
back, you're right, you're notgoing to see these four and 5%
increases typically over 20years.
But if you look at the lastfive years in some of these
utilities I think you will seethose numbers.
We've seen them in Arizona.
All of a sudden now it's 5%, 8%, 10% that they're doing Doesn't
(17:46):
mean you sit there and projectout that they're going to do 10%
over the next 20 years.
I think that's where a four or5% escalator actually is
realistic.
But you're right, you have tohave that conversation with that
customer at the table and saythe number is this in the
proposal and it's based on whatwe've seen over the last few
years.
But if you were to go back 20years you're not going to see
(18:06):
that number because they didn'tmove up utilities up high at all
in the last 15, 18 years.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And we don't know in all fairness, we don't know what
the impact is going to be.
I don't know whether y'all havebeen looking at all this stuff
about AI and the amount ofelectricity burned by AI.
Bill Gates is building anuclear plant.
Did you know that?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
No Up in like.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Wyoming or someplace.
Bill Gates is putting his ownprivate nuclear reactor to build
an AI farm.
You know so even if we are themost oil rich country in the
world, which I think we are.
Yep, there is a possibilitythat we can't make enough is a
(18:56):
possibility that we can't makeenough If we really want to be
the leaders in AI.
If y'all look at what they'rebuilding and the demands that
that's going to take, it maynegate all the savings that we
get by lowering oil to 60 bucksa barrel.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
The other thing that I would say as an installer, the
one thing that I know that Ican control is how the system
produces right.
That that's our big focus as aninstaller is we want to make
sure that what we install onyour roof produces as we said it
would, because that's reallyour responsibility.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
And that's all you can do.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Now, if somebody has a tree that grows or different
things that happen, I don'tcontrol that Right and I would
argue that with any customer.
I'd go to court and argue that.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
But other than that, as long as that system is doing
what, it's unfair for them tothen believe that they're going
to pay zero Right right, becauseas long as there's and I'll
tell you I've gotten into I'veleft body parts with Goodleap
over this issue.
Okay, the issue is it'sproducing everything we said it
would produce.
While that might be true, thesalesperson also promised that
(20:28):
it produced everything it wouldproduce.
Their electricity bill would be$20 a month and it's still 70.
So as long as you canaccurately describe to the
client what that amount ofproduction is going to turn into
in savings and I think aprofessional salesperson knows
(20:49):
who their provider is, knowswhat those rates of
reimbursement are and they'rehonest about them and they build
a system that's the right sizeand the right sort of the sweet
spot for that client to get themaximum benefit for the dollar
spent.
And you know I just try to getpeople where they're breaking
even.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Right, if they're breaking.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Even now, then over 20 years they're more than
likely to save a bunch of money.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah what I tell salespeople and customers that
100% offset doesn't mean 100%offset of your bill.
It's 100% energy offset of yourhistorical usage.
So I've even seen a 200% offsetand people still have a utility
bill.
Small one it'd be small, right,small one, but it's still there
.
They'd still have one, yeah,yeah, because it's not an offset
(21:38):
of your bill, it's an offset ofyour energy usage.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
But here's what I want to let you know.
Y'all are already, in my book,far more honest than most of the
salespeople that I see, becausethey've never mentioned any of
that.
And we have sort of minimumfees in Texas.
They're about a third of thebill and you can only reduce a
(22:03):
bill in Texas by two thirds.
So if someone's paying 300 amonth on average, it's the
lowest it could be.
If you're producing 100% andthe buyback is the, you know the
highest rate you could get, themost you could save would be
200 a month on your bill inTexas.
(22:23):
And so it's very important thatcustomers understand what
they're getting into, and Ithink a lot of them would be
okay if they can break even ormake a little now, if they've
got a good warranty.
What is y'all's installationwarranty?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So we do.
We have a.
We're actually good warranties.
We have a 25 year workmanshipwarranty because we feel like
we'll be around, we're not goinganywhere.
Right, we give a roofpenetration warranty, so three
inches around the penetration.
We actually give a 30 yearwarranty, okay.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
And then we do that.
Are y'all using solar insurer?
Y'all doing that yourself?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
No, no, no, we do it all in house.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Y'all in house.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Well, that's fantastic, that's a great we
read what solar insurer offersand we feel it's kind of
deceptive a little bit.
It's based on, really, theirmanufacturer warranties that
they already have.
Need solar insurer, right.
So we got away from that and wesaid you know, we, we, we trust
, we trust our process, we trustwhat we're doing, we're going
to warranty our work we feelwill last and if we go out there
(23:28):
to install it and we do theinspection and we feel that I
can't meet that and we, you knowin Phoenix, right.
So we, we're, our roofs aredifferent here.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
We have a lot of concrete tile underlayment
things like that, but we know ifit's good underlayment that we
can put that penetration onthere and it'll last.
And if it doesn't, we'll takecare of it.
That's our work.
That's basically what we offer.
I would tell anybody listeningthat that is so far superior to
anything, these fly-by-nightcompanies.
If you're buying from somebodywho hadn't been in business five
to 10 years, you are reallyrisking a lot.
You know and you know it's well, it's just true.
(24:07):
Look, I've been in business 30years.
For the first five I was afraidevery pay period that I wasn't
going to make payroll.
And at some point as a businessperson, you get past all that
and you got yourself a goodlittle business and you know
you're going to make payroll andall that you know.
(24:27):
And 480 payrolls later.
I seem to.
You know, I've seemed to havebeen able to cover my nut Right,
nut right and, but y'all arethe same way 50 years.
That's a great achievement anduh, uh, I would if I were y'all,
I would just really use that asa sales point, because ask
(24:49):
anyone with a titan energy, uh,titan solar power warranty what
that's worth to them now, and Ithink, I think they think they
would really wish that y'all hadsold it to them instead of
Titan.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
You know, I think, part of the problem.
I mean, yes, the consumer canbe the victim, but I think
sometimes the consumer can alsomake themselves the victim
because they're so focused on.
I'm going to listen to thissales guy and this pie in the
sky stuff he's telling me versuswhat, for instance, harmon
tells them reality.
Well, he says he can do this.
He says he can do that, I canget this.
(25:22):
If that's what you want to do,go ahead and do it, but I'm
telling you reality.
This is.
I'm telling you what it's goingto really look like.
So they get that, they get intothat situation and then we hear
from them later down the roadwhere they're upset because now
they feel like they've beenscammed.
Yeah, I guess that's at thatpoint when they come to you.
So my question is how manypeople?
I'm sure you're talking topeople that you looked at them
(25:43):
and I would think maybe youdon't say it, but what were you
thinking Like?
Why would you?
Why would you even believesomething like that?
You know, it's too good to betrue theory, right.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, and and I don't know what it is about the sales
process people get in and theyjust want to believe them.
Right, you know, they they justbecause I think I think people
have a hard time admitting ifthey've been gotten over on they
, really because they think itlooks bad on them that they were
(26:16):
stupid or they were this orthey were that and look, they
were just deceived, and.
But it's hard for a lot ofpeople to admit that or to even
go back and question and theyjust, they just don't believe
you when you tell them the truth.
It's really weird, but it ithappens.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Sure, I can imagine the looks you must get sometimes
.
I can only imagine the staresand looks you get sometimes when
you're, when you're educating,right, are you sure?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Hey, look, and, and I was trying to look up, I was
trying to look up real quick acouple of uh, uh, you know,
arizona contracts for some of myclients.
Uh, because I was going to seewhat kind of rate people are
paying, you know, on the sevenOK sales price per watt four
(27:06):
point six, three, four dollarsand sixty three cents a watt.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Now let me ask you anything in a contract where
they added things like batteriesor there's no adders.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
This is.
This is a cash or finance oh,that was financed through, you
know, my favorite lender, um,and it was, oh, it's only a 6.8
watt system yikes solar edge ithad.
It had the QP 400s.
(27:39):
I mean it was good, and K2racking hardware so I mean it
wasn't bad.
But it's 17 panels.
But the the sales price was $4and 63 cents a kilowatt hour and
that just buries the client sodeep in the in the process
(28:01):
there's no way they were evermaking any money from the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean, especially in Arizona when we're
seeing an average you knowabout $250, $260, you start
talking almost double that,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, they never had a chance.
You would be amazed at how manyclients I have that are buried
at that.
Four and over four, four and ahalf.
Now when it gets to five, it'sjust ridiculous or stupid.
But let me see if there wereany adders.
There were no adders to thisdeal.
That's just 17 panels with theinverters, microinverters and K2
(28:34):
racking.
Yeah, fort Mojave, arizona, howfar is that?
I don't know where that's at.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's SolarEdge.
That's an outskirt, the traveloutskirt was really high.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
And is Hanwha a good brand?
Hanwha, yeah, they are.
Yeah, they're some of the goodpanels, but still, I think
you're paying an absolutepremium for that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, the equipment sounds good, just the
price doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah no, the price doesn't at all.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
What is your process?
So you have a homeowner whofeels like they've gotten taken
advantage.
They have a contract Installermay or may not be in business
anymore.
They just say, hey, I thinkI've gotten taken advantage.
Do I have a case?
What is your process to kind ofvet these?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Well, we go to we obviously they, through either
social media or whatever, theyfind us.
They get to our website,solarpanelreliefcom, and we just
schedule an intake interviewwith them, and I've got a staff
of 38.
I mean, it's a pretty bigoperation and we have highly
(29:52):
trained people to screen, talk,to answer their questions and
try to figure out whether or notwe think they've got a case.
And we ask a lot of questions.
We want to know how did ithappen?
How did the sales processhappen?
Did you sign on your computeror the tablet of the salesperson
?
You know, how did that?
(30:13):
Did you?
Were you given an effectiveopportunity to even read the
contract before you signed it?
Were you told of a cash price?
Were you told that you know youmight be paying a substantial
fee to the lender just to makethe loan?
Those are the questions.
And then, what were youpromised?
(30:34):
What?
What savings were you promised?
And then what?
In in reality, though, what didyou get?
And so just, these are justsort of qualifying questions.
We ask to figure out whether ornot we think we can help them,
and if we think we can taketheir case, we do get them to
(30:54):
pay a small.
Well, small is a relative term.
It's a lot of money to a lot ofpeople.
So we get about $2,500 plus thefiling fee from the client, and
then we the rest of it's on acontingency.
If, if the, if we don't win, wedon't get any more than than
(31:16):
that and but that's, that's theprocess.
So we have a pretty lengthy youknow, we want to review the
contracts, we want to review thecorrespondence and emails.
So if we take the case, we'repretty certain that we can
prevail?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And how often do you find, after you've done all that
you know, vetting for thehomeowner that the solar company
did everything ethically andyou basically have to turn them
away?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Almost never, never, almost, never, never, almost
never.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
That's priceless.
That's what my initial thoughtwas Said no one ever.
It never happens yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
No, and look, we've got and this is kind of an
interesting deal because thereare a lot of systems that
perform exactly as sold andthese are the ones that the
lenders have a hard timesettling with this on, because
it performs exactly as it wassold, but it's at $5 a kilowatt
(32:18):
hour and they're losing moneyand they've never made any money
ever.
They're losing money andthey've never made any money
ever.
Now I will tell you this I'verun into a few of those that
come to find out when we startasking a few questions.
They put 10 or 15 grand intheir pocket when they did the
deal and so we don't take those.
(32:39):
That's just.
One guy said hey, it was 2%money.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I wanted all I could get out of it.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
he got a personal loan with his soul, and now
you're right he's he, he paidlike almost six bucks a kilowatt
hour and I'm thinking what inthe world?
Then come to find out theythey'd under the table paid him
like half the commission orsomething on the day, I don't
know, it was crazy refinancedhis house with that going down
that road real quick.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So I mean, obviously I've seen that scenario.
But how about the scenariowhere somebody is also, if in
the loan they're financingwindows or financing an HVAC
system, I mean that cost isgoing to negatively impact what
you know.
So that that's got to be adifferent way of looking at it
for you.
I'm sure I'm sure you've runinto that but that is great.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Yeah, I mean we, we have to.
If you have to be realistic, ifthey're buying other stuff like
windows and HVAC and all thatstuff, you have to just sort of
carve that off, cause guess what?
They got the HVAC and they gotthe windows.
Right, you know, they got those.
So that adds.
And also, I mean I had one, uh,one Arizona client that he'd
gotten the $19,000 tax rebate,so the lender, but it never
(33:50):
worked, it never got PTO and Imean it was just horrible
nightmare.
But the lender wrote it down tothe $19,000 because, in all
fairness, my client got thatmoney.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, he put it in his hip pocket and he chose not
to put it on the loan.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So we wrote it down to 19,000 and turned the panels
off and so he was kind of even.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
To that point.
You make a really good pointthere.
How many times have you talkedto somebody where they've got a
loan and they just don't putthat tax credit into the loan so
that payment goes up, and allof a sudden they're shocked?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a common thing .
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, we got to give them a good dose of reality
because, look, when I go into anarbitration, I've got an
arbitrator and I've got a verycapable defense counsel on the
other side and I can't let myclients labor under the illusion
that if they got that money anddidn't put it on the loan, that
nobody's going to notice.
(34:55):
They're going to notice.
So I prepare them for that andwe even tell.
If that's what happened at thebeginning of the proceeding we
say, even though we'd like towrite down the loan in its
entirety, we realize that myclient got $8,000, $9,000,
$13,000, whatever that number is.
So we realize that that amountis going to have to stay on the
(35:19):
loan.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Is there an argument for a customer saying that was
never explained to me?
I don't have a tax liability,Therefore I couldn't take
advantage of that, and thecompany took advantage of me by
thinking the payment was goingto be lower when it went higher.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
That happens all the time, especially on those.
Ok, because this client hasgiven me permission to use her
name, I'll just call it Patricia.
I won't give you her last name.
Patricia bought a system thatwas like $30,000 or $40,000.
They promised her a 30% taxrebate, that they were going to
(35:59):
get a check and she'd be able toput it down on the loan which
she was going to do.
Here's the problem.
As y'all know, it's a taxcredit.
If you don't pay tax, thenyou're not going to get the
credit.
Patricia is disabled and makesexactly $1,179 a month as her.
(36:20):
My gosh.
The salesperson lied on theapplication and said she made
$80,000, which she never saw.
The application right, Wow.
He just filled it out for herand they sent it in and said
here, click here, click here.
So she gets approved for thisloan, and it doesn't make any
(36:42):
sense.
Then the installer was Encore.
Did y'all have Encore out here,out in Arizona, I think?
they were out here for a while,yeah, and E-N-C-O with some kind
of accent or whatever.
Anyway, they promptly go under,don't finish the installation,
don't get PTO and the lender'swanting this money from her, and
(37:04):
it was just terrible.
And so we were able to just gethers completely wiped out and
some attorney's fees andeverybody goes away and all that
.
That salesperson is horrible.
Yeah, I've got to leave it tothe deity to get back at that
one.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
You know, I agree because it's just totally unfair
.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
They knew.
I said, Patricia, did you tellthem how much you make?
She said absolutely.
I told them eleven hundred andseventy nine dollars a month.
And when I got the application,once we filed the claim, I got
the application and said eightythousand000, which was just
nowhere near reality.
Wow, so she was never gettingthat tax money.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's unfortunate that you hear those stories because
you know it's a bad name forlegitimate companies as well.
You know, I can't help peoplelike no, no, no, that was their
situation with their company,their salespeople.
That's not the whole industry,that's just one bad apple Right.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Well, I think, as an industry, y'all are going to
have to go.
I mean y'all, but I mean theindustry.
There's going to have to be apurging.
I don't know if you rememberthe subprime debacle back in the
2007, 8, nine that led themovie the big short and all that
(38:28):
kind of stuff.
Yep, all I can tell you is isthat the stuff that the solar
panel sellers have been doing in22 and 23 would make the
subprime loan lenders blush.
Yeah, you know, because it wasso shameful of what they were
actually doing, what they werepromising and the way they were
(38:51):
lying to people.
And so I feel like my job is totake what happened in 21, 22,
23, and just sort of flush thatout of the system.
And then on the other side isgoing to have to emerge a more
honest, more transparent groupof vendors that are going to
deal more correctly with theconsumer.
(39:15):
And I applaud y'all and wouldsay y'all been there 50 years,
you're not going anywhere,you're not going to ruin your
reputation over a quick buck.
Y'all are going to try to do itright, and that's what I would
really recommend for consumersthat they try to find in their
area or their service area issomeone of a long-term
(39:38):
investment in the communitythat's going to be there for
them and, like clearly y'all are, and I think that it says a lot
for y'all.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
We appreciate that and it's it's hard.
Right, we work hard to do theright thing and we lose a lot of
business because we do theright thing.
But you're right, this is atough business because there's
so much bad out there that'staking advantage of people.
Because this is a quick, aquick buck business, right,
people can make a lot of money.
Yeah, that have never made thatkind of money before selling
solar.
And they do it the wrong wayand we fight it every day.
It's why we started thispodcast, having you on here and
(40:13):
just kind of talking about someof the horror stories.
It's it's important.
It validates everything we'vebeen saying for the last two
years and everything we tellevery customer we have, I mean
solar.
Solar can be so good for people.
It can save you a lot of money.
It's one of our taglines.
It's not for everybody, but youshould always take a look.
Sure, we truly believe that,because we believe there's a
(40:34):
benefit to solar for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
But for some people it's just not.
Yeah, and I think people needto know that, even as a law firm
, that I'm out there, you know,trying to get people out of
these contracts all day, everyday.
I believe in solar and at aperfect and at the right price,
and we you know we discussedthat earlier at the right price,
you know, I think it's greatand y'all are.
(40:57):
Y'all are well within the pricepoint that makes solar work and
it's just, you know, you can'tsell y'all's product for double
what y'all are selling it forand the consumer have a chance
but what y'all are selling itfor.
It seems to me that theconsumer gets a fair deal, Y'all
make a fair profit andeverybody can be happy.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
That's.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
America.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I always tell people we have too much to lose.
We have to be ethical.
You know we have too much tolose.
We have to be ethical.
You know we have over 100employees.
You know we're a family-ownedcompany.
We're a name that's been aroundin arizona for forever.
We have to be ethical.
You know, um, and you know youget these.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
We got too much to lose yeah you're joe schmo,
solar, and you're it's two guysin a truck right and, and you
know, throwing some stuff upthere and they're not even
licensed and I take it y'allhave to get permits.
Yes, y'all would be amazed athow many systems were thrown up
on roofs and they did not evenget a permit.
(41:58):
And because the market isderegulated here, they could
actually get PTF.
Wow, the electricity providerdid not make them show, they
just came out and did their ownlittle inspection.
They do for PTO.
Yeah, they came out and didthat inspection and didn't even
(42:22):
ask for the green cards.
So people have functioningsystems and did that inspection
and didn't even ask for thegreen cards.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
So people have functioning systems with PTO on
the roof and no permit you havesome areas that don't require
permits, though, right, I mean,I think there are some yeah yeah
, you're extraterritorial.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
You're out in the county, out in the country.
Y'all probably do too, but youknow, in general, you need to
get a permit and it needs to bea licensed electrician, right,
yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Yeah Well, you'd be amazed at how much of it's just
put up out here by people whothink, oh, this is easy, and
they, I mean, it's really a messsometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I tell people we're not perfect, we're going to make
mistakes and Ralph and I knowwe do make mistakes.
The difference between us andother companies is we're not
going to point the finger atsomebody else and say, no, it
was your fault, your fault,we'll own up to it.
We'll say, yeah, we made amistake, but we're going to fix
it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
We're going to take care of it.
Yeah, I can tell you situationswhere we we had some dealers
that were selling for us, youknow, and maybe somebody wasn't
as ethical as they should havebeen at the kitchen table and
obviously I'm not at the tableso we can't control that but we
try to vet them the best we canto make sure we have ethical
companies working with us.
I think we do.
(43:36):
We do a good job of that.
But sometimes when it gets byand our owner has stepped in and
, you know, made it right for acustomer that maybe wasn't
getting the best deal, where weturned down and gave them, let's
say, ten thousand dollars tohelp because it was the wrong
thing done to them right becausewe don't want our name attached
to that, because that's notwhat we're about.
(43:56):
so we try to do the right thingand make it right for that
customer.
I mean, we've even come to apoint where we've taken a system
off a house because it justwasn't a good fit for that
person.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Right, right so and I'd close to you a lot in the
short run, but in the long runit'll make you a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah, you got to do the right thing, you know, if
you're not doing the right thing, I don't know how you sleep at
night, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I couldn't do it, so what?
What else you got?
Well, let's take a look-seehere.
We told you we'd hit oneverything without even trying.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Well, we've been around the bush a bunch.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
We've talked about this a lot with picking solar
companies to go with, installersto go with, what are red flags
to look out for.
But I don't want people to justtake our words for it, because
we are a solar company.
In your opinion, what are somered flags that homeowners should
look out for, because we are asolar?
Speaker 3 (44:45):
company.
In your opinion, what are somered flags that homeowners should
look out for?
Oh, I think it's the urgency,the false urgency.
They come in and say, oh, yougot to do this today.
Rates are going up, the specialis going to expire.
I would just advise anybodydon't do anything on the first
time they come to your house.
You need to price comparison.
You need to shop.
You know you need to pricecomparison.
(45:06):
You need to shop.
You need to maybe get a secondopinion.
You need to ask about thefinancing and find out what.
If you can get it financedyourself or you can pay cash,
what would the price be?
I look at longevity.
I do.
I would really look at how longthey've been in business Like
y'all have been around 50 years,how long y'all been doing solar
(45:28):
Since 2008.
Ok, 17 years in solar.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, there's three or four companies that started
solar in Arizona.
We are one of them.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Right, ok, well, that's, and so I would look at
those things and I think y'allcheck all the boxes, but that's
what I would say, becausethere's actually a chance that
y'all will actually be there forthe full 25 years of your
warranty, whereas you know, Iwouldn't do business with
(46:00):
anybody who hasn't been inbusiness at least as long as
their warranty.
Wow, you know, if you got a 25year warranty, I'd like to know
that the company's been inbusiness 25 years, right, and
now look, I know my sons are inthe installation and that's how
I got involved in all this andthey give a 10 year workmanship
(46:21):
warranty and they've been inbusiness five.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
But I know that they're going to deliver on
their, on their promise you know, okay, those are good, those
are good points, yeah, yeah,those are a lot of things that
we talked about, I mean.
So you're just aligning witheverything we've been saying for
for you know a couple of years,but it's nice to hear it from
somebody that's dealing withpeople that didn't think about
these things and what happensand y'all would never do this,
(46:46):
but there's just suchopportunity for fraud in this
business.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
You know, I can told you.
The one that I told you aboutwas the hanwha 400s.
You know, I've seen people buy400s and they and they what
shows up out on the on the roofis 278s.
Whoa, you know.
And because how does thecustomer ever know what you've
actually put on their roof?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
yeah, you wouldn't it's true.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Yeah, there are there , and there's a huge price
differential and there's a hugeproduction differential, yeah,
between between those.
So if you, if you're notdealing with an honest operator,
there's about a million waysthey can hit you for an unfair
situation.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
That's definitely shady, because even the
electrical drawings show whatmodule you're using, has the cut
sheets on it and everything.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So if you don't install something else, and it's
not like the inspector is goingto go on the roof and start
looking at the panels.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yeah, whoever compares the invoice to what's
on the roof.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Right, I haven't on the roof Right.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
I haven't heard that one.
Wow, oh yeah, we've had themshow up with and they said what
are the ones that are made inAmerica?
There's somebody that they'reAmerican-made.
I think they're made in SanAntonio.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Texas, there's Mission, there's QCell.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Okay, either one of those they put in the contract
we're going to be, you know,texas, we're going to be the US,
it's going to be Mission orwhatever, and it just shows a
completely, you know, korean orChinese brand of it.
But the customer has no way ofreally knowing Right that.
So there's a lot of bait andswitch that goes on, that I've
(48:23):
seen, and that's just flat outfraud and misrepresentation and
all that.
Those are easy to win.
You got a contract that saysit's going to be Mission 400s
and it's Hanwha 278s.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, I mean that's an easy one, I would assume.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, those are easy, those are easy, but look guys
it sounds like to me y'all aredoing all the right things.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, that's a good segue to a question I did want
to ask what's your biggesthorror story where you look at a
case and you're like this, just, you know, eats me up inside?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Well, I told you about Patricia.
Okay, let me tell.
Yeah, here's the worst one ever, though let's just call him
Billy.
Okay, billy lived in Longview,texas.
Billy had a 14 by 40 footsingle wide trailer home that he
lived in for 15 years.
(49:19):
Billy was 73 years old, $2,100a month of social security
income, hadn't paid taxes in youknow a good 18 years, or
something like that.
They came out and put 31 panelson a 14 by 40 foot single wide
(49:40):
trailer for $73,000.
Okay, wow, billy gets introuble trying to make the
payments on everything becausethey don't produce anywhere near
what they're supposed to, andhe gets behind and he loses the
land and the and the trailerhome to foreclosure.
Oh, wow, so they have nowhauled off his trailer with his
(50:06):
31 solar panels on top of it,and he lost the land and the
trailer and the panels all tothe bank that repossessed the
trailer, and so I put Billy in abankruptcy and just got rid of
all of it.
But that's the worst one.
And they promised him thattwenty one thousand dollar
(50:30):
rebate check, which never came.
Yeah and uh, you know the, thehouse, the trailer home, was
probably only worth 30 grand, 40grand maybe, and they put
seventy three thousand dollarsworth of panels on a mobile home
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
That's the worst.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
I actually think that was elder abuse and I'm
actually going to talk to thedistrict attorney in that county
about his case.
It was awful.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Gosh, that leaves me speechless.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
When you asked me what was the worst one, I said
you hit it, man.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
That's a whole book, I'm sure that salesperson is,
you know, sipping margaritas ona beach in Cancun?
Oh, I'm sure.
And look man.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
I'll call them the solar bros.
That are the guys that goaround selling these and doing
all their blitzes and drivingtheir Maybachs and their
Bentleys yeah, they're Maybach'sand they're, they're Bentley's.
Those guys have a special placethat the deity is going to
(51:30):
reserve for them, in my opinion.
But that is.
That is not my fight.
But look, we sue the lendersbecause these sales
organizations are really nothingmore than conduits for
commissions.
You know, y'all are different.
Y'all have a real business.
Y'all have, like you say, 100employees and a real electrical
contracting business.
If you look at most of thesesolar sales organizations,
(51:54):
they've got an executive suite,everybody's remote.
There's nobody that reallyworks there.
There's no real assets.
There's no that really worksthere.
There's no real assets.
There's no physical location.
They're subbing all the work toother people.
They're just a salesorganization.
(52:19):
Right, yeah you know solar salesbros inc is not a real company.
It's just they're getting andevery month they get their
commissions in and they spend110 of what those commissions
are yeah you know, I.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I remember I had a uh , I had someone reach out that
wanted to to work here to be asalesperson.
I don't know if I ever told youthis, but I had to turn her
down.
I was like no, it's not goingto be a fit, because the way
that she came across she's likeI drive a Maserati, I have two
other cars and I have my homeand two vacation homes in
California.
I'm going to be your bestsalesperson.
(52:57):
I need the lowest red line.
I was like I don't want to eventalk to you anymore.
You're not going to be a goodfit for this company.
That's great.
You might be the best solarsalesperson in the world, but
not with us.
Go somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And you know what's so sad?
There's 15 people willing tohire, right, there's people
lined up to hire that person andshe doesn't drive a Maserati by
being honest, right, right.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
And look.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
I'm a free enterprise capitalist, right.
I don't think wealth is a signof bad character.
But in that case, if they'reselling solar and driving a
Maserati with two lake homes andall that stuff, that's because
they're just knocking people'sheads off.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you could do well in this industry.
If you're ethical, if you'rehonest, absolutely.
You know you could do it.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
There are a lot of people that do well in this
industry, ethically yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:53):
It's the tortoise versus the hare, right.
I mean, the tortoise is slowand sure, but they finish the
race and they do it withintegrity and you know, at the
end of the day y'all will makemore money than they do.
They make a whole lot in ashort time and then they go to
prison or they, you know, theywind up bankrupt or they wind up
(54:13):
in you know a bad spot becausethey got greedy.
And if y'all do it the rightway, you can still do great.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't mind.
Fair price for fair profit,right.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Right?
No, I agree, I think we're onthe same page.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
Well, I'm glad you guys reached out to me.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Us too.
Yeah, so how can people reachout to you?
Or, if they do feel like theyneed a case, what documents do
they need?
How do they contact you?
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
They can just go to solarpanelreliefcom that's our
primary website ortheprevolawfirmcom either one
and they can schedule anappointment.
It's all we do.
We don't do anything other thansolar panel cases.
I got rid of my last commerciallitigation case last year and
this is all we're involved inand we've got a really good team
(55:05):
of people who can help them.
Very responsive.
We answer our phone calls.
You know we're prettyresponsive and we'll let them
know if we think we have a caseor not.
And you know we're not doing itin all states right now.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Is y'all's podcast going be mostly arizona or where
it goes everywhere yeah, goeseverywhere, okay, well harman
solar is arizona based, but thepodcast is national perfect,
okay, well, we'll, we'll look atanything you know.
Speaker 3 (55:34):
but and look, even if we can't help them, we can at
least give them some adviceabout where they can go and what
they can do, and and we try tobe helpful either way, even if
they don't wind up, you know,becoming clients Awesome.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Neil, it was an absolute pleasure meeting you
and talking to you.
What you're doing is soimportant and just keep that up,
and we, we support what you'redoing a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Well, thank you, guys , and and I really meant it yeah
, I believe y'all are the kindof people that people need to do
business with, so you, get myhearty recommendation for sure.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Next time I'm in that Dallas area I'm going to come
look for you.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
Hey, let's go.
I'll buy you some barbecue.
I'll show you what realbarbecue is like.
I love it.
I'll be there, All right guys.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Thank you, man.
Welcome to another edition of the Harman Solar
Podcast.
I'm Rob Fromano, vp of Salesand Marketing at Harman Solar,
and with me, as always, is MrEverything Ben Walschlager.
See, I just left it there thistime.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
You just left it there, no friend or anything.
I just left it alone.
I like it.
So, Ben, we know what we'regoing to do today.
This is a very special podcastslash Zoomcast.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Yeah, this is something that.
I don't think anybody wouldwant to do.
We want to do it because ofwhat we do.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
We always talk about the good, bad, the ugly in the
industry, so let's talk aboutboth of those.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Right, so maybe you've been on Facebook or
you've been on social media andyou see these ads from Prevost
Law Firm.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's funny because as soon as we started this podcast
, I opened up my Facebook andsure enough it came up Came
right up.
Right, it's right there, Cameright up.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
You see these ads from Prevost Law Firm helping
people with solar that maybe gota bad deal or something bad
went on, or maybe the installeris out of business.
Whatever it is, we've beenseeing these ads and so we've
reached out to Neil.
What we have today is NeilPrevost from Prevost Law Firm in
the Dallas, texas, area.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Neil, how are you doing?
Thank you for joining us.
I'm doing awesome.
Thank you, guys for having meon.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
We are excited to have you on to get your
perspective of what you'reseeing in the industry.
I know you're dealing with alot of customers I'm assuming
you're dealing with.
I know you're dealing withpeople in Texas, yes, but I'm
assuming you're dealing withpeople around the country.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
We are.
There's four states.
The state bar rules allow youto practice in a state
temporarily, that is, withoutbeing licensed there and without
an office there, if you'redoing private arbitrations and
mediations.
There are four states thatdon't have that rule, and that's
Florida, south Carolina,louisiana and California.
So I could be in 46 states, butwe're currently in about 10,
(01:50):
mostly throughout the South andthe Sun Belt Arizona, nevada,
new Mexico, colorado, texas,oklahoma, georgia, south
Carolina, north Carolina excuseme and then a smattering of
Maryland, pennsylvania and a fewothers.
But yeah, we're able to do itpretty much nationwide.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I would say what you're focused on is you're
probably talking about solarcontract disputes, things like
that, right?
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Most of our focus is on when the lender not the
lender the seller has gone outof business and has left the
customer holding the bag on a 10to out.
In y'all's area, the big one'sTitan who gave a 25-year
installation warranty, and sothe customers are left.
You know, 18 months in they'releft holding the bag on 90% of
(02:37):
the warranty.
So most of my clients have hadtheir solar installer go out of
business.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Wow yeah, we see that a lot.
That's a big number.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
Think about it.
It's Titan Pink Power.
I mean there's lots and lots offolks that have gone out of
business, which impresses meabout y'all, because most people
don't make it three years, andI think how long y'all been
doing this.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Yeah, 50 years.
This is our 50th anniversary.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
Okay.
Well then I would say thaty'all are beyond that danger
zone of going out of business.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Well, what we do different is we're more
diversified, right, soresidential solar is a part of
our business.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
It's not our whole business Right.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
We do commercial solar, we do commercial
electrical, we have a serviceindustry.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
I got you.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, so it's helped and that's why we've been around
for so long, but it's a goodpoint.
One of our taglines is we'vebeen around longer than our
warranties, I mean, and no oneelse can say that.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Absolutely that's, and that's a huge selling point.
If, when consumers especiallythe old, the disabled, the
people on fixed incomes they'rebuying solar in order to fix
their expenses over time, andeven if they just get into it at
a breakeven circumstance, it'sokay, then because as the price
(03:51):
of electricity goes up over time, they save more and more money
and they've fixed their expenses.
The difficulty comes when theirseller goes out of business and
all of a sudden they'reresponsible for replacing three
panels or 10 panels or three, ora new inverter or a new micro
inverter or whatever.
Whatever goes out, you knowthey then bear that expense and
(04:15):
they can't afford it.
So it's especially thesewarranties are especially
important to the people who areon fixed incomes.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, we get a lot of those calls because in our
industry, as you mentioned, alot of companies have gone out
of business.
So they, you know, they go onGoogle and they type in you know
solar companies in Arizona andpop up and they, that's their
complaints.
They say, hey, my company wentout of business, I don't know
about my warranties orsomething's not working, my
bills are high, can help.
So obviously we feel thosecalls but we have to have that
(04:46):
heart to heart with them.
Say, like you know, we can takecare of, like the manufacturer,
warranties on the equipment,but as far as your workmanship
warranty, from your installeryeah, I'm sorry but that's there
that's they're out of luck.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
yeah, well, and and see.
Now that is where I would comein, because the holder rule,
which is what I sue under, Igenerally sue only the lenders
and there's a rule, there's alittle piece of you know words,
there's a paragraph in each oneof these contracts that says
(05:20):
that the lender can be sued forthe sins of the seller if you
will, and you can hold themaccountable for that.
Now, all that you don't getcold hard cash.
You get a credit against thebalance of the loan, but like,
let's say, some I had one.
They wanted $3,000 to replacethree panels, which may or not
(05:40):
be an outrageous amount, I don'tknow for sure.
That might be perfectly fine.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
That seems right.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
It's very high.
Okay, Well, that was what thequote was and I said, well, look
, all we can do is, if you paythe money, I can then petition
to have you know you get creditfor that on the loan.
And that was about as good aswe could do.
But yeah, it leaves them reallyhigh and dry.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Yeah, I'm sure you have lots of horror stories in
this industry.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Well, the good ones don't call me, I only hear the
bad ones, right, if they love it.
My phone doesn't ring.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Right, your best case scenario is I don't ever want
to hear from you again yes,exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
So are you?
Would you say that most of thepeople that are reaching out to
you it's because of the example.
Like you said, titan, out ofbusiness, things like that.
That's your number one.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
Most of it.
I mean, and look, thesalespeople promise the
improbable and then theconsumers left to try to figure
it out whether or not they'retelling the truth.
And so, you know, someoneknocks on your door.
They come to the door and say,hey, how would you like to never
pay another electricity bill,and of course that sounds great.
(06:54):
So then the whole deal startsand you know, three or four
hours later they've signed acontract for $40,000 or $50,000
to install solar on their house.
And I think a lot of people Ihear from a lot of people when
they realize that the UCC lienhas to be paid when they sell
(07:18):
their house.
That's a big deal that a lot ofpeople don't understand.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Yeah, I want to touch a little bit on.
So you have a shady salespersonwho comes and says, hey, you'll
never pay a bill.
What can the homeowner dolegally?
Because I know in the contractthat they signed it doesn't say
anything about savings or whattheir future bills are going to
be like.
But if the salesperson said itturns into a, he said she said
(07:44):
thing, do homeowners have anyground to stand on when a
salesperson says you'll neverpay a bill, just sign here on
the dotted line?
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Well, every state, including Arizona, has a
deceptive trade practice statuteand what those statutes do is I
mean, if you go by the strictwords of the contract, the
contract says what it says.
You know we're not making youany promises, we didn't.
You know we're not giving anyadvice or anything like that.
However, the statute makes it aviolation of the statute if you
(08:20):
misrepresent to the consumerthe benefits or provisions of a
contract.
So it's a standalone lawsuitabout what you said that doesn't
have anything to do with thecontract.
So every state it's called theDeceptive Trade Practices Act.
I think it's the Arizona UnfairConsumer UCP.
(08:47):
I think that I'll look it up,but the you know Arizona has its
own version of the act and itmakes it actionable, and what I
mean by that is you can sue ifthey lie to you about the
effects of a contract and whatyou're signing, the effects of a
contract and what you'resigning.
So yes, they've got, and youknow it's pretty robust in most
(09:15):
states including Arizona.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And let me see what the statute of limitations is.
I think every sales rep needsto hear that what you say can be
held.
You know.
Absolutely, it can be usedagainst you to court a law?
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Yeah, it's the Arizona Consumer Fraud Act, acfa
, and that statute is whatprohibits, you know, fraud and
misrepresentation in the sale oradvertisement of merchandise.
You know false advertising,bait and switch tactics,
misrepresenting a product'scharacteristics, all of that
(09:48):
kind of stuff is I mean, it'seven I mean it's a pretty broad
state, even like altering themileage on a vehicle's odometer
is considered an unfair act.
You know there's all kinds ofthings but bait and switch,
misrepresentations, all of that.
Oh, concealing or omittingmaterial facts, you know that's
(10:10):
failing to disclose informationabout the product or service or
about the financing thereof.
Or, you know, providing falseassurances about about how it's
going to work.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
A company went out of business.
They come to us and say, hey,my salesperson said I would
never have a bill, and now Ihave bills.
I think something's wrong withmy system.
So it's like, well, I'll take alook at your system.
But now I kind of have toresell it to them, even though
it wasn't even our sale.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
I'm like, well, let me tell you the actual what's
going to happen and what yourbills should look like.
And I'm sorry that they misledyou, but here's the reality.
And obviously they get mad, butit's like I don't want to tell
you.
Do you know what the number oneresponse of most companies is?
That y'all are clearly betterthan you know what their number
one response is.
(10:58):
What is it?
Well, you didn't buy enoughpanels, Right, and they try.
You would be amazed at how manyof my clients bought a system
let's say they bought an eightkilowatt system and then they
say, well, it's not producinglike it's supposed to.
And they don't mention anythingabout all the other expenses
(11:20):
and all the other reasons.
They just say, oh well, youdidn't get enough panels.
We should have put a 10 or a 12kilowatt system.
So we just need to come out andput more panels.
And you'd be amazed at how manytimes people buy that and
actually make a secondarypurchase when the first one
didn't work.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, I get those too .
People will call in with add-onsystems and I take a look at it
.
And I actually just turnedsomebody down last week because
I think they were still gettinga bill and they said I think I
need more panels.
I have the roof space for it.
I took a look at their utilitybills, all their information,
and I said you don't need more.
It's going to cause more harmthan good.
You don't need more.
Okay, what about a battery?
(12:00):
You don't need a battery either, but what you're doing is fine.
Well, I've got quotes fromthese two other companies saying
that I need more.
How much?
Speaker 3 (12:06):
do I get paid?
Speaker 2 (12:07):
when I tell you no.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Exactly, that's right .
Well, I'll tell you something Ishare with you, something I
always tell clients when I'mtrying to give them advice, and
it's like not to file a suit ornot to do this or not to do that
Anytime a lawyer gives youadvice that is taking money out
of his pocket, you should listen.
And the same is true with youIf you've got a solar
(12:31):
installation company who istelling you don't do it.
You need to listen because youknow they're clearly giving you
advice that is in your bestinterest, you know.
I mean, if you're sitting theresaying, oh, you got to.
Oh, you're right, you got space, let's do another 10 pounds
over here.
Well, who's going to make moneyfrom that?
(12:53):
Right, so that's.
But that's a very good point,and people need to be told.
You need to listen when I'mgiving you advice that takes
money out of my pocket.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yep, so true.
I want to go back to thedeceptive practice.
You were talking about that so,and obviously I know you all
know all this.
But in the industry, when wewere getting data from a
customer, putting it into aproposal tool like you talked
about Aurora Sola, whatever itis Sure and then it's giving its
projection of what it thinks itcan do for you based on that,
(13:24):
yeah, so as a salesperson, Ihand that, I hand the proposal
to the customer.
I go through it with them.
Now, those proposals may or maynot be right.
I mean honestly.
Honestly, it's it's looking atprevious usage, but it doesn't
know what usage is going tohappen from here on out, how
you're going to change yourlifestyle can change.
And so what you're originallyselling them and if I'm trying
to do an honest job and sellthem based on what their history
(13:45):
has been, it could change andmaybe not work out the way we
would hope it would, becausethey've changed.
Do you ever run into thatscenario?
Because it's hard as asalesperson to then be held
accountable to say I wasn'tdeceiving them.
They changed the way they liveand now it's not going to work
out the way it should haveworked out, the way we talked
about at the kitchen table.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I think that's a false argument on on their, on
the side of the customer, andhere's what I try to.
Here's what I try to walk themthrough.
Ok, let's say at the time youdo the proposal, their average
bill is $200 a month and thatyou're projecting $100 a month
(14:28):
savings.
Ok, let's say you're going tocut their bill in half.
Ok, well then they add a newbedroom and a pool and a hot tub
, all electric, you know, no gas, we're going to go all electric
and their bill goes up to $300a month.
But the reality is, if theystill save the $100,000, the
(14:53):
question is, did they save thehundred a month you told them
they would save?
Right, and if they saved thehundred a month that you told
them they would save, thenyou've done everything.
You haven't misled them aboutanything.
Now, when you say you'll neverhave another electricity bill,
that's different.
And they add the pool and thejacuzzi and the hot tub and the
(15:16):
extra bedroom on the house, thenthey might have some room for
it.
But you have to say, well, whenI said you'd never have another
bill, I meant the bill you werepaying at the time.
I didn't mean you could growweed in the garage with all the
lamps that it takes to grow weed.
(15:37):
I didn't expect you to start,you know, boiling meth in the
back, I mean.
So you see what I'm saying.
I just need some reality about.
We were talking about the billsyou were paying at the time and
and here's what I told you Ithought we could do and and you
know I'm sure that Charlesproposals will have sort of like
(15:58):
a percentage offset, yeah, yeah, percentage offset.
And now I want to be candidwith you.
I'll tell you where I thinksalespeople get in trouble on
Solo and Aurora and some of theother tools, tools.
(16:21):
I think they put too big anumber in the projected savings,
because there's an internalnumber that you can put into
your proposal tool about howmuch the annual increase is
going to be in your electricitycost.
If a salesperson puts 4%, thatnumber is going to look
astronomically huge.
They're going to look likethey're the smartest people in
(16:42):
the whole world.
And in Texas they generally put2.9.
And I think that's high.
I went over 15 years in Texasand the average is 2.2 increase.
So if you're going to becompletely honest and
transparent with your customers,you need to kind of talk with
(17:03):
them about that assumption.
That is an assumption in GoSolothat it's 2.9, I think Maybe
that's implemented by each salesorganization.
I don't know whether that's an.
API that y'all can adjust itdefinitely is something that the
sales company controls.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
All I would say to that is if you do, take a look
back, you're right, you're notgoing to see these four and 5%
increases typically over 20years.
But if you look at the lastfive years in some of these
utilities I think you will seethose numbers.
We've seen them in Arizona.
All of a sudden now it's 5%, 8%, 10% that they're doing Doesn't
(17:46):
mean you sit there and projectout that they're going to do 10%
over the next 20 years.
I think that's where a four or5% escalator actually is
realistic.
But you're right, you have tohave that conversation with that
customer at the table and saythe number is this in the
proposal and it's based on whatwe've seen over the last few
years.
But if you were to go back 20years you're not going to see
(18:06):
that number because they didn'tmove up utilities up high at all
in the last 15, 18 years.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And we don't know in all fairness, we don't know what
the impact is going to be.
I don't know whether y'all havebeen looking at all this stuff
about AI and the amount ofelectricity burned by AI.
Bill Gates is building anuclear plant.
Did you know that?
Speaker 2 (18:33):
No Up in like.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Wyoming or someplace.
Bill Gates is putting his ownprivate nuclear reactor to build
an AI farm.
You know so even if we are themost oil rich country in the
world, which I think we are.
Yep, there is a possibilitythat we can't make enough is a
(18:56):
possibility that we can't makeenough If we really want to be
the leaders in AI.
If y'all look at what they'rebuilding and the demands that
that's going to take, it maynegate all the savings that we
get by lowering oil to 60 bucksa barrel.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
The other thing that I would say as an installer, the
one thing that I know that Ican control is how the system
produces right.
That that's our big focus as aninstaller is we want to make
sure that what we install onyour roof produces as we said it
would, because that's reallyour responsibility.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
And that's all you can do.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Now, if somebody has a tree that grows or different
things that happen, I don'tcontrol that Right and I would
argue that with any customer.
I'd go to court and argue that.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
But other than that, as long as that system is doing
what, it's unfair for them tothen believe that they're going
to pay zero Right right, becauseas long as there's and I'll
tell you I've gotten into I'veleft body parts with Goodleap
over this issue.
Okay, the issue is it'sproducing everything we said it
would produce.
While that might be true, thesalesperson also promised that
(20:28):
it produced everything it wouldproduce.
Their electricity bill would be$20 a month and it's still 70.
So as long as you canaccurately describe to the
client what that amount ofproduction is going to turn into
in savings and I think aprofessional salesperson knows
(20:49):
who their provider is, knowswhat those rates of
reimbursement are and they'rehonest about them and they build
a system that's the right sizeand the right sort of the sweet
spot for that client to get themaximum benefit for the dollar
spent.
And you know I just try to getpeople where they're breaking
even.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Right, if they're breaking.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Even now, then over 20 years they're more than
likely to save a bunch of money.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah what I tell salespeople and customers that
100% offset doesn't mean 100%offset of your bill.
It's 100% energy offset of yourhistorical usage.
So I've even seen a 200% offsetand people still have a utility
bill.
Small one it'd be small, right,small one, but it's still there
.
They'd still have one, yeah,yeah, because it's not an offset
(21:38):
of your bill, it's an offset ofyour energy usage.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
But here's what I want to let you know.
Y'all are already, in my book,far more honest than most of the
salespeople that I see, becausethey've never mentioned any of
that.
And we have sort of minimumfees in Texas.
They're about a third of thebill and you can only reduce a
(22:03):
bill in Texas by two thirds.
So if someone's paying 300 amonth on average, it's the
lowest it could be.
If you're producing 100% andthe buyback is the, you know the
highest rate you could get, themost you could save would be
200 a month on your bill inTexas.
(22:23):
And so it's very important thatcustomers understand what
they're getting into, and Ithink a lot of them would be
okay if they can break even ormake a little now, if they've
got a good warranty.
What is y'all's installationwarranty?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
So we do.
We have a.
We're actually good warranties.
We have a 25 year workmanshipwarranty because we feel like
we'll be around, we're not goinganywhere.
Right, we give a roofpenetration warranty, so three
inches around the penetration.
We actually give a 30 yearwarranty, okay.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
And then we do that.
Are y'all using solar insurer?
Y'all doing that yourself?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
No, no, no, we do it all in house.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
Y'all in house.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Well, that's fantastic, that's a great we
read what solar insurer offersand we feel it's kind of
deceptive a little bit.
It's based on, really, theirmanufacturer warranties that
they already have.
Need solar insurer, right.
So we got away from that and wesaid you know, we, we, we trust
, we trust our process, we trustwhat we're doing, we're going
to warranty our work we feelwill last and if we go out there
(23:28):
to install it and we do theinspection and we feel that I
can't meet that and we, you knowin Phoenix, right.
So we, we're, our roofs aredifferent here.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
We have a lot of concrete tile underlayment
things like that, but we know ifit's good underlayment that we
can put that penetration onthere and it'll last.
And if it doesn't, we'll takecare of it.
That's our work.
That's basically what we offer.
I would tell anybody listeningthat that is so far superior to
anything, these fly-by-nightcompanies.
If you're buying from somebodywho hadn't been in business five
to 10 years, you are reallyrisking a lot.
You know and you know it's well, it's just true.
(24:07):
Look, I've been in business 30years.
For the first five I was afraidevery pay period that I wasn't
going to make payroll.
And at some point as a businessperson, you get past all that
and you got yourself a goodlittle business and you know
you're going to make payroll andall that you know.
(24:27):
And 480 payrolls later.
I seem to.
You know, I've seemed to havebeen able to cover my nut Right,
nut right and, but y'all arethe same way 50 years.
That's a great achievement anduh, uh, I would if I were y'all,
I would just really use that asa sales point, because ask
(24:49):
anyone with a titan energy, uh,titan solar power warranty what
that's worth to them now, and Ithink, I think they think they
would really wish that y'all hadsold it to them instead of
Titan.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
You know, I think, part of the problem.
I mean, yes, the consumer canbe the victim, but I think
sometimes the consumer can alsomake themselves the victim
because they're so focused on.
I'm going to listen to thissales guy and this pie in the
sky stuff he's telling me versuswhat, for instance, harmon
tells them reality.
Well, he says he can do this.
He says he can do that, I canget this.
(25:22):
If that's what you want to do,go ahead and do it, but I'm
telling you reality.
This is.
I'm telling you what it's goingto really look like.
So they get that, they get intothat situation and then we hear
from them later down the roadwhere they're upset because now
they feel like they've beenscammed.
Yeah, I guess that's at thatpoint when they come to you.
So my question is how manypeople?
I'm sure you're talking topeople that you looked at them
(25:43):
and I would think maybe youdon't say it, but what were you
thinking Like?
Why would you?
Why would you even believesomething like that?
You know, it's too good to betrue theory, right.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Well, and and I don't know what it is about the sales
process people get in and theyjust want to believe them.
Right, you know, they they justbecause I think I think people
have a hard time admitting ifthey've been gotten over on they
, really because they think itlooks bad on them that they were
(26:16):
stupid or they were this orthey were that and look, they
were just deceived, and.
But it's hard for a lot ofpeople to admit that or to even
go back and question and theyjust, they just don't believe
you when you tell them the truth.
It's really weird, but it ithappens.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Sure, I can imagine the looks you must get sometimes
.
I can only imagine the staresand looks you get sometimes when
you're, when you're educating,right, are you sure?
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Hey, look, and, and I was trying to look up, I was
trying to look up real quick acouple of uh, uh, you know,
arizona contracts for some of myclients.
Uh, because I was going to seewhat kind of rate people are
paying, you know, on the sevenOK sales price per watt four
(27:06):
point six, three, four dollarsand sixty three cents a watt.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Now let me ask you anything in a contract where
they added things like batteriesor there's no adders.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
This is.
This is a cash or finance oh,that was financed through, you
know, my favorite lender, um,and it was, oh, it's only a 6.8
watt system yikes solar edge ithad.
It had the QP 400s.
(27:39):
I mean it was good, and K2racking hardware so I mean it
wasn't bad.
But it's 17 panels.
But the the sales price was $4and 63 cents a kilowatt hour and
that just buries the client sodeep in the in the process
(28:01):
there's no way they were evermaking any money from the
beginning.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
Yeah, I mean, especially in Arizona when we're
seeing an average you knowabout $250, $260, you start
talking almost double that,absolutely.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, they never had a chance.
You would be amazed at how manyclients I have that are buried
at that.
Four and over four, four and ahalf.
Now when it gets to five, it'sjust ridiculous or stupid.
But let me see if there wereany adders.
There were no adders to thisdeal.
That's just 17 panels with theinverters, microinverters and K2
(28:34):
racking.
Yeah, fort Mojave, arizona, howfar is that?
I don't know where that's at.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
That's SolarEdge.
That's an outskirt, the traveloutskirt was really high.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
And is Hanwha a good brand?
Hanwha, yeah, they are.
Yeah, they're some of the goodpanels, but still, I think
you're paying an absolutepremium for that.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Yeah, I mean, the equipment sounds good, just the
price doesn't.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
Yeah no, the price doesn't at all.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
What is your process?
So you have a homeowner whofeels like they've gotten taken
advantage.
They have a contract Installermay or may not be in business
anymore.
They just say, hey, I thinkI've gotten taken advantage.
Do I have a case?
What is your process to kind ofvet these?
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Well, we go to we obviously they, through either
social media or whatever, theyfind us.
They get to our website,solarpanelreliefcom, and we just
schedule an intake interviewwith them, and I've got a staff
of 38.
I mean, it's a pretty bigoperation and we have highly
(29:52):
trained people to screen, talk,to answer their questions and
try to figure out whether or notwe think they've got a case.
And we ask a lot of questions.
We want to know how did ithappen?
How did the sales processhappen?
Did you sign on your computeror the tablet of the salesperson
?
You know, how did that?
(30:13):
Did you?
Were you given an effectiveopportunity to even read the
contract before you signed it?
Were you told of a cash price?
Were you told that you know youmight be paying a substantial
fee to the lender just to makethe loan?
Those are the questions.
And then, what were youpromised?
(30:34):
What?
What savings were you promised?
And then what?
In in reality, though, what didyou get?
And so just, these are justsort of qualifying questions.
We ask to figure out whether ornot we think we can help them,
and if we think we can taketheir case, we do get them to
(30:54):
pay a small.
Well, small is a relative term.
It's a lot of money to a lot ofpeople.
So we get about $2,500 plus thefiling fee from the client, and
then we the rest of it's on acontingency.
If, if the, if we don't win, wedon't get any more than than
(31:16):
that and but that's, that's theprocess.
So we have a pretty lengthy youknow, we want to review the
contracts, we want to review thecorrespondence and emails.
So if we take the case, we'repretty certain that we can
prevail?
Speaker 2 (31:34):
And how often do you find, after you've done all that
you know, vetting for thehomeowner that the solar company
did everything ethically andyou basically have to turn them
away?
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Almost never, never, almost, never, never, almost
never.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
That's priceless.
That's what my initial thoughtwas Said no one ever.
It never happens yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
No, and look, we've got and this is kind of an
interesting deal because thereare a lot of systems that
perform exactly as sold andthese are the ones that the
lenders have a hard timesettling with this on, because
it performs exactly as it wassold, but it's at $5 a kilowatt
(32:18):
hour and they're losing moneyand they've never made any money
ever.
They're losing money andthey've never made any money
ever.
Now I will tell you this I'verun into a few of those that
come to find out when we startasking a few questions.
They put 10 or 15 grand intheir pocket when they did the
deal and so we don't take those.
(32:39):
That's just.
One guy said hey, it was 2%money.
Speaker 2 (32:45):
I wanted all I could get out of it.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
he got a personal loan with his soul, and now
you're right he's he, he paidlike almost six bucks a kilowatt
hour and I'm thinking what inthe world?
Then come to find out theythey'd under the table paid him
like half the commission orsomething on the day, I don't
know, it was crazy refinancedhis house with that going down
that road real quick.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
So I mean, obviously I've seen that scenario.
But how about the scenariowhere somebody is also, if in
the loan they're financingwindows or financing an HVAC
system, I mean that cost isgoing to negatively impact what
you know.
So that that's got to be adifferent way of looking at it
for you.
I'm sure I'm sure you've runinto that but that is great.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
Yeah, I mean we, we have to.
If you have to be realistic, ifthey're buying other stuff like
windows and HVAC and all thatstuff, you have to just sort of
carve that off, cause guess what?
They got the HVAC and they gotthe windows.
Right, you know, they got those.
So that adds.
And also, I mean I had one, uh,one Arizona client that he'd
gotten the $19,000 tax rebate,so the lender, but it never
(33:50):
worked, it never got PTO and Imean it was just horrible
nightmare.
But the lender wrote it down tothe $19,000 because, in all
fairness, my client got thatmoney.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, he put it in his hip pocket and he chose not
to put it on the loan.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
So we wrote it down to 19,000 and turned the panels
off and so he was kind of even.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
To that point.
You make a really good pointthere.
How many times have you talkedto somebody where they've got a
loan and they just don't putthat tax credit into the loan so
that payment goes up, and allof a sudden they're shocked?
Yes, yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
That's a common thing .
Speaker 3 (34:34):
Yeah, we got to give them a good dose of reality
because, look, when I go into anarbitration, I've got an
arbitrator and I've got a verycapable defense counsel on the
other side and I can't let myclients labor under the illusion
that if they got that money anddidn't put it on the loan, that
nobody's going to notice.
(34:55):
They're going to notice.
So I prepare them for that andwe even tell.
If that's what happened at thebeginning of the proceeding we
say, even though we'd like towrite down the loan in its
entirety, we realize that myclient got $8,000, $9,000,
$13,000, whatever that number is.
So we realize that that amountis going to have to stay on the
(35:19):
loan.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Is there an argument for a customer saying that was
never explained to me?
I don't have a tax liability,Therefore I couldn't take
advantage of that, and thecompany took advantage of me by
thinking the payment was goingto be lower when it went higher.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
That happens all the time, especially on those.
Ok, because this client hasgiven me permission to use her
name, I'll just call it Patricia.
I won't give you her last name.
Patricia bought a system thatwas like $30,000 or $40,000.
They promised her a 30% taxrebate, that they were going to
(35:59):
get a check and she'd be able toput it down on the loan which
she was going to do.
Here's the problem.
As y'all know, it's a taxcredit.
If you don't pay tax, thenyou're not going to get the
credit.
Patricia is disabled and makesexactly $1,179 a month as her.
(36:20):
My gosh.
The salesperson lied on theapplication and said she made
$80,000, which she never saw.
The application right, Wow.
He just filled it out for herand they sent it in and said
here, click here, click here.
So she gets approved for thisloan, and it doesn't make any
(36:42):
sense.
Then the installer was Encore.
Did y'all have Encore out here,out in Arizona, I think?
they were out here for a while,yeah, and E-N-C-O with some kind
of accent or whatever.
Anyway, they promptly go under,don't finish the installation,
don't get PTO and the lender'swanting this money from her, and
(37:04):
it was just terrible.
And so we were able to just gethers completely wiped out and
some attorney's fees andeverybody goes away and all that
.
That salesperson is horrible.
Yeah, I've got to leave it tothe deity to get back at that
one.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
You know, I agree because it's just totally unfair
.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
They knew.
I said, Patricia, did you tellthem how much you make?
She said absolutely.
I told them eleven hundred andseventy nine dollars a month.
And when I got the application,once we filed the claim, I got
the application and said eightythousand000, which was just
nowhere near reality.
Wow, so she was never gettingthat tax money.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
It's unfortunate that you hear those stories because
you know it's a bad name forlegitimate companies as well.
You know, I can't help peoplelike no, no, no, that was their
situation with their company,their salespeople.
That's not the whole industry,that's just one bad apple Right.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Well, I think, as an industry, y'all are going to
have to go.
I mean y'all, but I mean theindustry.
There's going to have to be apurging.
I don't know if you rememberthe subprime debacle back in the
2007, 8, nine that led themovie the big short and all that
(38:28):
kind of stuff.
Yep, all I can tell you is isthat the stuff that the solar
panel sellers have been doing in22 and 23 would make the
subprime loan lenders blush.
Yeah, you know, because it wasso shameful of what they were
actually doing, what they werepromising and the way they were
(38:51):
lying to people.
And so I feel like my job is totake what happened in 21, 22,
23, and just sort of flush thatout of the system.
And then on the other side isgoing to have to emerge a more
honest, more transparent groupof vendors that are going to
deal more correctly with theconsumer.
(39:15):
And I applaud y'all and wouldsay y'all been there 50 years,
you're not going anywhere,you're not going to ruin your
reputation over a quick buck.
Y'all are going to try to do itright, and that's what I would
really recommend for consumersthat they try to find in their
area or their service area issomeone of a long-term
(39:38):
investment in the communitythat's going to be there for
them and, like clearly y'all are, and I think that it says a lot
for y'all.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
We appreciate that and it's it's hard.
Right, we work hard to do theright thing and we lose a lot of
business because we do theright thing.
But you're right, this is atough business because there's
so much bad out there that'staking advantage of people.
Because this is a quick, aquick buck business, right,
people can make a lot of money.
Yeah, that have never made thatkind of money before selling
solar.
And they do it the wrong wayand we fight it every day.
It's why we started thispodcast, having you on here and
(40:13):
just kind of talking about someof the horror stories.
It's it's important.
It validates everything we'vebeen saying for the last two
years and everything we tellevery customer we have, I mean
solar.
Solar can be so good for people.
It can save you a lot of money.
It's one of our taglines.
It's not for everybody, but youshould always take a look.
Sure, we truly believe that,because we believe there's a
(40:34):
benefit to solar for a lot ofpeople.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
But for some people it's just not.
Yeah, and I think people needto know that, even as a law firm
, that I'm out there, you know,trying to get people out of
these contracts all day, everyday.
I believe in solar and at aperfect and at the right price,
and we you know we discussedthat earlier at the right price,
you know, I think it's greatand y'all are.
(40:57):
Y'all are well within the pricepoint that makes solar work and
it's just, you know, you can'tsell y'all's product for double
what y'all are selling it forand the consumer have a chance
but what y'all are selling itfor.
It seems to me that theconsumer gets a fair deal, Y'all
make a fair profit andeverybody can be happy.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
That's.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
America.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
I always tell people we have too much to lose.
We have to be ethical.
You know we have too much tolose.
We have to be ethical.
You know we have over 100employees.
You know we're a family-ownedcompany.
We're a name that's been aroundin arizona for forever.
We have to be ethical.
You know, um, and you know youget these.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
We got too much to lose yeah you're joe schmo,
solar, and you're it's two guysin a truck right and, and you
know, throwing some stuff upthere and they're not even
licensed and I take it y'allhave to get permits.
Yes, y'all would be amazed athow many systems were thrown up
on roofs and they did not evenget a permit.
(41:58):
And because the market isderegulated here, they could
actually get PTF.
Wow, the electricity providerdid not make them show, they
just came out and did their ownlittle inspection.
They do for PTO.
Yeah, they came out and didthat inspection and didn't even
(42:22):
ask for the green cards.
So people have functioningsystems and did that inspection
and didn't even ask for thegreen cards.
Speaker 1 (42:27):
So people have functioning systems with PTO on
the roof and no permit you havesome areas that don't require
permits, though, right, I mean,I think there are some yeah yeah
, you're extraterritorial.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
You're out in the county, out in the country.
Y'all probably do too, but youknow, in general, you need to
get a permit and it needs to bea licensed electrician, right,
yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Yeah Well, you'd be amazed at how much of it's just
put up out here by people whothink, oh, this is easy, and
they, I mean, it's really a messsometimes.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
I tell people we're not perfect, we're going to make
mistakes and Ralph and I knowwe do make mistakes.
The difference between us andother companies is we're not
going to point the finger atsomebody else and say, no, it
was your fault, your fault,we'll own up to it.
We'll say, yeah, we made amistake, but we're going to fix
it.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
We're going to take care of it.
Yeah, I can tell you situationswhere we we had some dealers
that were selling for us, youknow, and maybe somebody wasn't
as ethical as they should havebeen at the kitchen table and
obviously I'm not at the tableso we can't control that but we
try to vet them the best we canto make sure we have ethical
companies working with us.
I think we do.
(43:36):
We do a good job of that.
But sometimes when it gets byand our owner has stepped in and
, you know, made it right for acustomer that maybe wasn't
getting the best deal, where weturned down and gave them, let's
say, ten thousand dollars tohelp because it was the wrong
thing done to them right becausewe don't want our name attached
to that, because that's notwhat we're about.
(43:56):
so we try to do the right thingand make it right for that
customer.
I mean, we've even come to apoint where we've taken a system
off a house because it justwasn't a good fit for that
person.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
Right, right so and I'd close to you a lot in the
short run, but in the long runit'll make you a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Yeah, you got to do the right thing, you know, if
you're not doing the right thing, I don't know how you sleep at
night, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
I couldn't do it, so what?
What else you got?
Well, let's take a look-seehere.
We told you we'd hit oneverything without even trying.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
Well, we've been around the bush a bunch.
Speaker 2 (44:31):
We've talked about this a lot with picking solar
companies to go with, installersto go with, what are red flags
to look out for.
But I don't want people to justtake our words for it, because
we are a solar company.
In your opinion, what are somered flags that homeowners should
look out for, because we are asolar?
Speaker 3 (44:45):
company.
In your opinion, what are somered flags that homeowners should
look out for?
Oh, I think it's the urgency,the false urgency.
They come in and say, oh, yougot to do this today.
Rates are going up, the specialis going to expire.
I would just advise anybodydon't do anything on the first
time they come to your house.
You need to price comparison.
You need to shop.
You know you need to pricecomparison.
(45:06):
You need to shop.
You need to maybe get a secondopinion.
You need to ask about thefinancing and find out what.
If you can get it financedyourself or you can pay cash,
what would the price be?
I look at longevity.
I do.
I would really look at how longthey've been in business Like
y'all have been around 50 years,how long y'all been doing solar
(45:28):
Since 2008.
Ok, 17 years in solar.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, there's three or four companies that started
solar in Arizona.
We are one of them.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
Right, ok, well, that's, and so I would look at
those things and I think y'allcheck all the boxes, but that's
what I would say, becausethere's actually a chance that
y'all will actually be there forthe full 25 years of your
warranty, whereas you know, Iwouldn't do business with
(46:00):
anybody who hasn't been inbusiness at least as long as
their warranty.
Wow, you know, if you got a 25year warranty, I'd like to know
that the company's been inbusiness 25 years, right, and
now look, I know my sons are inthe installation and that's how
I got involved in all this andthey give a 10 year workmanship
(46:21):
warranty and they've been inbusiness five.
Speaker 1 (46:24):
But I know that they're going to deliver on
their, on their promise you know, okay, those are good, those
are good points, yeah, yeah,those are a lot of things that
we talked about, I mean.
So you're just aligning witheverything we've been saying for
for you know a couple of years,but it's nice to hear it from
somebody that's dealing withpeople that didn't think about
these things and what happensand y'all would never do this,
(46:46):
but there's just suchopportunity for fraud in this
business.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
You know, I can told you.
The one that I told you aboutwas the hanwha 400s.
You know, I've seen people buy400s and they and they what
shows up out on the on the roofis 278s.
Whoa, you know.
And because how does thecustomer ever know what you've
actually put on their roof?
Speaker 1 (47:08):
yeah, you wouldn't it's true.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
Yeah, there are there , and there's a huge price
differential and there's a hugeproduction differential, yeah,
between between those.
So if you, if you're notdealing with an honest operator,
there's about a million waysthey can hit you for an unfair
situation.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
That's definitely shady, because even the
electrical drawings show whatmodule you're using, has the cut
sheets on it and everything.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
So if you don't install something else, and it's
not like the inspector is goingto go on the roof and start
looking at the panels.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Yeah, whoever compares the invoice to what's
on the roof.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Right, I haven't on the roof Right.
Speaker 3 (47:46):
I haven't heard that one.
Wow, oh yeah, we've had themshow up with and they said what
are the ones that are made inAmerica?
There's somebody that they'reAmerican-made.
I think they're made in SanAntonio.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
Texas, there's Mission, there's QCell.
Speaker 3 (48:01):
Okay, either one of those they put in the contract
we're going to be, you know,texas, we're going to be the US,
it's going to be Mission orwhatever, and it just shows a
completely, you know, korean orChinese brand of it.
But the customer has no way ofreally knowing Right that.
So there's a lot of bait andswitch that goes on, that I've
(48:23):
seen, and that's just flat outfraud and misrepresentation and
all that.
Those are easy to win.
You got a contract that saysit's going to be Mission 400s
and it's Hanwha 278s.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Yeah, I mean that's an easy one, I would assume.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
Yeah, those are easy, those are easy, but look guys
it sounds like to me y'all aredoing all the right things.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Yeah, that's a good segue to a question I did want
to ask what's your biggesthorror story where you look at a
case and you're like this, just, you know, eats me up inside?
Speaker 3 (48:59):
Well, I told you about Patricia.
Okay, let me tell.
Yeah, here's the worst one ever, though let's just call him
Billy.
Okay, billy lived in Longview,texas.
Billy had a 14 by 40 footsingle wide trailer home that he
lived in for 15 years.
(49:19):
Billy was 73 years old, $2,100a month of social security
income, hadn't paid taxes in youknow a good 18 years, or
something like that.
They came out and put 31 panelson a 14 by 40 foot single wide
(49:40):
trailer for $73,000.
Okay, wow, billy gets introuble trying to make the
payments on everything becausethey don't produce anywhere near
what they're supposed to, andhe gets behind and he loses the
land and the and the trailerhome to foreclosure.
Oh, wow, so they have nowhauled off his trailer with his
(50:06):
31 solar panels on top of it,and he lost the land and the
trailer and the panels all tothe bank that repossessed the
trailer, and so I put Billy in abankruptcy and just got rid of
all of it.
But that's the worst one.
And they promised him thattwenty one thousand dollar
(50:30):
rebate check, which never came.
Yeah and uh, you know the, thehouse, the trailer home, was
probably only worth 30 grand, 40grand maybe, and they put
seventy three thousand dollarsworth of panels on a mobile home
.
Speaker 2 (50:45):
That's the worst.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
I actually think that was elder abuse and I'm
actually going to talk to thedistrict attorney in that county
about his case.
It was awful.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
Gosh, that leaves me speechless.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
When you asked me what was the worst one, I said
you hit it, man.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
That's a whole book, I'm sure that salesperson is,
you know, sipping margaritas ona beach in Cancun?
Oh, I'm sure.
And look man.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
I'll call them the solar bros.
That are the guys that goaround selling these and doing
all their blitzes and drivingtheir Maybachs and their
Bentleys yeah, they're Maybach'sand they're, they're Bentley's.
Those guys have a special placethat the deity is going to
(51:30):
reserve for them, in my opinion.
But that is.
That is not my fight.
But look, we sue the lendersbecause these sales
organizations are really nothingmore than conduits for
commissions.
You know, y'all are different.
Y'all have a real business.
Y'all have, like you say, 100employees and a real electrical
contracting business.
If you look at most of thesesolar sales organizations,
(51:54):
they've got an executive suite,everybody's remote.
There's nobody that reallyworks there.
There's no real assets.
There's no that really worksthere.
There's no real assets.
There's no physical location.
They're subbing all the work toother people.
They're just a salesorganization.
(52:19):
Right, yeah you know solar salesbros inc is not a real company.
It's just they're getting andevery month they get their
commissions in and they spend110 of what those commissions
are yeah you know, I.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
I remember I had a uh , I had someone reach out that
wanted to to work here to be asalesperson.
I don't know if I ever told youthis, but I had to turn her
down.
I was like no, it's not goingto be a fit, because the way
that she came across she's likeI drive a Maserati, I have two
other cars and I have my homeand two vacation homes in
California.
I'm going to be your bestsalesperson.
(52:57):
I need the lowest red line.
I was like I don't want to eventalk to you anymore.
You're not going to be a goodfit for this company.
That's great.
You might be the best solarsalesperson in the world, but
not with us.
Go somewhere else.
Speaker 3 (53:11):
And you know what's so sad?
There's 15 people willing tohire, right, there's people
lined up to hire that person andshe doesn't drive a Maserati by
being honest, right, right.
Speaker 1 (53:25):
And look.
Speaker 3 (53:26):
I'm a free enterprise capitalist, right.
I don't think wealth is a signof bad character.
But in that case, if they'reselling solar and driving a
Maserati with two lake homes andall that stuff, that's because
they're just knocking people'sheads off.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
Yeah, yeah, and you could do well in this industry.
If you're ethical, if you'rehonest, absolutely.
You know you could do it.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
There are a lot of people that do well in this
industry, ethically yeah.
Speaker 3 (53:53):
It's the tortoise versus the hare, right.
I mean, the tortoise is slowand sure, but they finish the
race and they do it withintegrity and you know, at the
end of the day y'all will makemore money than they do.
They make a whole lot in ashort time and then they go to
prison or they, you know, theywind up bankrupt or they wind up
(54:13):
in you know a bad spot becausethey got greedy.
And if y'all do it the rightway, you can still do great.
There's nothing wrong with that.
I don't mind.
Fair price for fair profit,right.
Speaker 1 (54:26):
Right?
No, I agree, I think we're onthe same page.
Yeah, 100%.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
Well, I'm glad you guys reached out to me.
Speaker 2 (54:33):
Us too.
Yeah, so how can people reachout to you?
Or, if they do feel like theyneed a case, what documents do
they need?
How do they contact you?
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (54:40):
They can just go to solarpanelreliefcom that's our
primary website ortheprevolawfirmcom either one
and they can schedule anappointment.
It's all we do.
We don't do anything other thansolar panel cases.
I got rid of my last commerciallitigation case last year and
this is all we're involved inand we've got a really good team
(55:05):
of people who can help them.
Very responsive.
We answer our phone calls.
You know we're prettyresponsive and we'll let them
know if we think we have a caseor not.
And you know we're not doing itin all states right now.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Is y'all's podcast going be mostly arizona or where
it goes everywhere yeah, goeseverywhere, okay, well harman
solar is arizona based, but thepodcast is national perfect,
okay, well, we'll, we'll look atanything you know.
Speaker 3 (55:34):
but and look, even if we can't help them, we can at
least give them some adviceabout where they can go and what
they can do, and and we try tobe helpful either way, even if
they don't wind up, you know,becoming clients Awesome.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
Neil, it was an absolute pleasure meeting you
and talking to you.
What you're doing is soimportant and just keep that up,
and we, we support what you'redoing a hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Well, thank you, guys , and and I really meant it yeah
, I believe y'all are the kindof people that people need to do
business with, so you, get myhearty recommendation for sure.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Next time I'm in that Dallas area I'm going to come
look for you.
Speaker 3 (56:11):
Hey, let's go.
I'll buy you some barbecue.
I'll show you what realbarbecue is like.
I love it.
I'll be there, All right guys.
Speaker 1 (56:20):
Thank you, man.
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