August 25, 2023 • 19 mins
Our enlightening conversation with the insightful TJ Woodward, clinician advocate, author, and founder of Conscious Recovery, sheds light on Complex PTSD and Trauma. We also explore the healing process. TJ takes us on an empathetic journey through the maze of guilt, shame, and trauma - shining a light on our deepest fears and guiding us toward a path of healing.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Today, I get to speak with TJWoodward.
He's a clinician advocate,author and the founder of
Conscious Recovery.
(00:21):
In this clip, we talk aboutcomplex PTSD and some good ideas
on ways to respond to people'sreactions.
Also, we discuss finding atherapist, how to choose an
appropriate therapist and helptherapists choose appropriate
clients for themselves as well.
If you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
(00:42):
and tell all your friends aboutHatching Creativity.
Thank you all for joining ustoday.
I'm really excited for ourguest, tj Woodward from
Conscious Recovery.
I've been speaking with just alittle while, but we've hit it
off really well and I thinkyou've got a lot of good
information to share.
So, tj, I'm going to pass it toyou for a brief introduction
(01:04):
about who you are and what youdo.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, thank you, and I agree, I think we've had some
really amazing conversationsthat have been energizing for me
.
I've been working in theaddiction treatment field since
2008, and my passion is reallyhelping people reconnect with
their own passion for this workand also helping people actually
heal the underlying root causesthat drive addiction the two
(01:27):
things that were really strikingto me when I started working in
the field.
One is watching clients comeback over and over and over
again to treatment and hearingwell-meaning therapists,
counselors, coaches andclinicians saying what are you
going to do differently?
And I thought well, what can wedo differently as well?
And my work, conscious Recovery.
The foundation of it isunderneath all addictive
(01:49):
behavior is an essential selfthat's whole and perfect.
I see shame as one of thedriving forces of addiction and,
simply said, shame doesn't healshame.
So I'm looking at how we canprovide a different opportunity
for people.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think the first thing I want to do with you is
let's set a clear distinctionbetween guilt and shame.
Yeah, I think that's a reallyimportant topic to head on.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, and it's important because guilt and
shame are not only they don'tonly show up differently, but
how you actually heal them isreally different.
So, simply said, guilt is Ibelieve I've done something
wrong or I've done somethingwrong.
Shame is I believe that I amfundamentally, fundamentally
wrong or broken in some way.
Guilt you correct guiltbehaviorally.
(02:41):
That's why in recovery circlesthere's an amends process.
I make amends for the ways I'veharmed others and in myself
included, and Behaviorally.
That, quote-unquote fixes it.
Shame is something reallydifferent, because shame is
something much deeper.
It lives in secrecy and silence.
So the way we work with shameis we actually bring it into the
(03:02):
light, authenticity andvulnerability, creating a great
connection.
We talk a lot about attunementwith our clients, so shame
really needs a safe space to bebrought into the light and
that's the way that gets healed.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You know, tj, I've been doing a lot of research on
this lately myself.
As you know, you don't get tobe 45 years old and not have
your own issues and things tolook into, and one of the things
that I've been hearing a lotabout is complex PTSD, and it's
kind of a newer concept that alot of people may not be aware
(03:40):
of.
Are you familiar with it?
Have you done any research onthat?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I am, I am familiar with it, yes, absolutely and
what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
maybe give a little explanation of what CPTSD is and
and kind of the differencebetween a complex PTSD and a
Standard PTSD that most peopleare more going to be more aware
of.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, I'm gonna start with saying I'm gonna be giving
my own interpretation of it, soI'm not gonna be giving like
the classic definition of whatthe two are.
But what I will say is that PTSDand many, as a matter of fact,
most Diagnoses if you look atthe DSM or if you look at how we
actually diagnose and treat, wetend to look at behaviors and
symptoms, right, and so PTSD isa cluster of symptoms, I think,
(04:27):
where, for me, when I say it'scomplex, it's multi-layered,
right.
One of the one of the thingsthat's fascinating to me is we
can have two people thatexperience something that's the
same in Real time and havecompletely different outcomes.
In other words, one person canbe in an accident, a car
(04:47):
accident, the other person canbe in one, and one has symptoms
of PTSD and the other one doesnot.
And the study that I read thatI think was the most interesting
showed something profoundlysimple, and that is people who
had more acute p at PTSDSymptoms were people who had
early childhood trauma.
So it wasn't just going to war.
(05:08):
That was traumatic, because ofcourse it is traumatic, but the
symptomology came out of notonly what was happening like,
let's say, in the 21st century,but also what was happening when
we were children and the thecurrent traumatic event was
actually triggering orActivating the trauma that was
unhealed from the past.
So that's how I kind of frameit and I know there's a lot of
(05:30):
different layers to complex PTSD.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You know, what's really interesting about that is
, as I started learning aboutCPTSD.
It brought me back to theconversations that I've had with
myself about other people andother people's reactions to
certain Conversations andcertain things.
Sometimes you'll talk tosomebody and you'll go damn,
(05:55):
their reaction is really overthe top For what just happened.
Yeah, and you go.
It doesn't make sense to me.
But if you look at it throughthat lens of the CPTSD, you can
also say I've never walked inthat person's shoes and I
haven't experienced their lives.
(06:16):
So their response is actuallycompletely cohesive with their
feelings and their experience inlife and we can't necessarily
identify that or identify withthat.
You know of an interestingsituation that had happened was
(06:38):
a sexually discriminatingcomment towards a woman
co-worker that somebody said toher and none of the men in the
room could possibly comprehendthat this was offensive to her,
and every single woman grittedtheir teeth and made a fist and
(07:01):
it was so telling as to oh, waita second, I'm a white male.
I can't possibly have the sameunderstanding of whatever that
situation was as a female whowas in this situation.
And sometimes looking at thingsthat way can really help you
(07:22):
understand other people betterand connect with people better
and actually create lessdivision with other people too,
and that's really one.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
We could call that compassion too.
Right, what you're speaking tois actually at the core of my
work, and at the heart of mywork, because I love what Bess
Alvander-Coltz says about trauma.
He says trauma doesn't show upas a memory, it shows up as a
reaction, and so the reaction isusually something that's, for
many of us, buried deep in theunconscious or the subconscious,
(07:57):
and a lot of mental healthtreatment and addiction
treatment is focusing on what wecan see, the behaviors.
So the analogy I use because Ilike simple is if you plant a
maple seed, you're gonna grow amaple tree.
Would it be unrealistic toplant a maple seed and hope for
an elm tree?
And in the same way we look atthe seed.
(08:17):
That represents what I callcore false beliefs.
And the reason I call them corefalse beliefs is, I want to
acknowledge, that there are liesthat we've picked up about
ourselves.
This can happen in groups ofpeople, and it can happen in the
individual, and usually whathappens is we're walking around
with one of these core falsebeliefs one that's very popular,
unfortunately is I'm not worthy.
(08:38):
If I believe I'm not worthy,it's not just a thought, it's
actually this core belief that'sburied, buried deep down in the
unconscious, and I'm walkingaround vibrating with that and I
keep replicating that over andover and over again, not only
because it's all I believe I'mworthy of, but it's literally
not possible to do anythingother than that, because the
core false belief is a vibrationand it's attracted to that same
(09:01):
vibration, and so the healingis actually getting down to the
core false belief.
Another way to say it is it'sless about what happened and
more about what we decided aboutourselves as a result of what
happened, and that is individualright.
One person can have anexperience that can be very
traumatic.
They can have a very deep woundI'm stupid, I'm not good enough
(09:25):
, I'm unlovable.
Someone else can have thatexperience and it meant nothing
to them.
That's why I'm not a massivefan of the terms big T, little T
, trauma, because trauma reallyis for the individual.
What was the impact on me?
And so the healing is not justin the behaviors it's in.
Where did this originate andhow can we actually get down and
(09:45):
heal that, because it ispossible.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Wow, TJ, you know I saw your video on Core False
Beliefs and actually that wasone of the things that made me
really excited to talk with you.
And it also is kind of likethat law of attraction right, we
attract what we put out.
And, on a personal note, youknow, for years and years and
years I've been in therapydealing with all kinds of things
(10:11):
right, we all are right and oneof the things that I've noticed
is we were never able to gettoo far because we were
attacking today and the symptomstoday and maybe talking a
little bit about before.
But one of the things that wasreally helpful for me in my
(10:34):
personal journey was writing anemotional journal and
understanding my feelings onwhatever it was, because there's
always some triggering event tothose feelings, right, and that
has been really helpful in meunderstanding although it does,
(10:54):
it can be a bit more of anemotional ride than just going
at what we're currently dealingwith, but I found it to be
really helpful for me personallytoo.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, and you're really like.
I have so much passion for whatyou're saying, because therapy
is a wonderful thing and talktherapy is a wonderful thing,
and sometimes it can be limitedif we're only working with
what's happening today or we gointo narrative therapy where we
learn where the patternsoriginated.
Personally, I did that forabout a decade.
I was in therapy, I was inrecovery and I'm like, oh, I get
(11:30):
it.
Now this happened and thereforethis happens, and that's why I
react this way.
But nothing really changeduntil I started working with
this incredible therapist and hewas an engaged Buddhist and I'm
like I don't know what thatmeans, but I'm willing to learn
and it was essentially.
It is still what's happening inreal time, but it's how it's
showing up in your body, right?
Where is the reactivity thathappens in the body?
(11:53):
We use the term I love that youcalled it the triggering event
rather than the trigger, becauseusually people say my mom
triggered me, my girlfriendtriggered me, my boss triggered
me, and that's where a lot of usstop.
They shouldn't be doing that,right.
But we want to be curious, notabout what triggers us only, but
what gets activated.
(12:13):
The wound got touched and it'sgetting touched because it's
wanting to heal.
So we, yes, narrative therapy,yes, communication skills, yes,
looking at the patterns.
The deeper work is where didthis originate and how do I
start to care for the youngerself?
Because usually it's a fouryear old, a five year old, a six
year old me who made thesemajor life decisions.
(12:35):
My brain wasn't even developedenough to have a cognitive
understanding, so the solutionisn't cognitive only.
We must get down to not onlythe emotions, as you said, which
of course is the massive partof the work, but as also our
core being and really gettingdown to the deeper experience
when we decided all of this andhow it's still locked in our
(12:57):
body.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
You know, we on our last conversation we talked
about kind of spirituality andbeliefs and I just find it
really interesting that ourconversation took a.
This was not what we hadplanned on talking about today
(13:19):
and the conversation took atotal left turn when this came
up and I think it's reallyexciting to talk to somebody who
understands this and who canrelate on this level, and I
really appreciate that.
Tj, I'm also thinking, you know, this could be an ideal
(13:41):
opportunity for somebody who'slistening to this that may be
looking to find their owntherapist, maybe looking to find
somebody who can help themovercome some of the trauma and
some of their CPTSD that theyhave.
Do you have any recommendationsfor somebody looking for help?
(14:05):
How do they find a therapistwho can help them really get to
the bottom of things?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, I think we all have a different, maybe a set of
needs.
There was a time in myevolution where I did need
someone to work with thepatterns and work with the
communication skills, and thenthere was a time when I knew
that I must go deeper.
And so for me, what happened isbeing able to talk to this
person, ken, who became mytherapist, the focus that he had
(14:35):
on engaged Buddhism and I reada little bit about that and it
was really like being fullyimmersed and engaged in present
moment experience.
That to me resonated so much.
And I'm thinking when myhusband and I went to couples
counseling, which was the bestexperience we could possibly do
as a couple.
I was really clear, because Ihad worked in the field a while,
which actually I knew whichschools I wanted a therapist to
(14:58):
have graduated from, because Iknew they were doing depth
psychology.
I knew they were doingspiritual psychology.
They were doing this deeperwork, not just looking at the
patterns and the behaviors, butreally getting down to the core
of things.
And to me it's very spiritualand that word can be really
loaded.
So we could unpack thatpossibly.
But for me it was like what doI truly desire?
(15:20):
And I was at a point where Isaid I'm really ready to do the
deeper work of healing, sowhat's required is someone who's
done their own.
That could be a whole podcastin itself, but that's really my
passion is helping clinicians dotheir own healing so they can
be present with their clients.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
I love that and we are going to do one specifically
on that because I think it'ssuch a great concept.
You know, a lot of times peoplewill go in and I have to go on
into therapy.
You know it's hard enough tofind somebody that your
insurance covers and somebodywho's got time within the next
(15:58):
10 years to see you and all ofthose things right.
So once you find somebody,oftentimes you just take that
first person because you justfeel that you need to have
somebody to talk to.
But it is really important thatyou interview a therapist
before making a decision.
Even if you're going intotreatment they usually have
(16:21):
multiple therapists.
They've got different peoplethat can treat you and different
people that can work with you.
A lot of times you can ask aclinical director for
recommendations on who you cantalk to or speak with them about
different things.
But it's really important that,going in, that you advocate for
(16:43):
yourself.
It's the same thing as when yougo to a doctor and you
interview your doctor oranything else.
You know being able to advocatefor yourself and have some idea
of what you want and if maybeyou don't feel comfortable doing
that, than having somebody withyou who is not afraid to ask
difficult questions.
From your perspective, tj, as atherapist, how would you go
(17:11):
about interviewing a client tosee if you're a good, if they're
the right fit?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
for you.
Well, I think the beauty ofbeing a therapist or a counselor
in private practice, forexample, is that you really do
get to decide what your passionand your calling is.
Who do you want to work with?
For example, I have workedreally well with people who have
a borderline personalitydisorder diagnosis, even though
I'm not a big fan of the term,because there are people who
(17:40):
have usually severe attachmentwounding early in life and
they're presenting in aparticular way.
But what I loved about workingwith them was what I knew.
What they really required ordesired is to be seen and to be
heard and a deeper level ofconnection, and that's what I
love.
I love being able to be withsomeone and drop in and have a
(18:00):
deep connection.
I'm thinking of a friend of minewho couldn't be the more
opposite.
He's a therapist and he likesto work with CEOs and he likes
to be really directive.
He's like I like to tell reallypowerful people what they
should do with their life.
Right, that could not befurther than the truth from me.
The beauty of being in privatepractice is we do get to decide
what our specialty is and who wewant to work with when we work
(18:22):
in a treatment environment.
It's a different thing, right,because we get to work with a
broad spectrum of people in alot of different ways.
I love what you said.
I've never heard anyone saythat when you go into treatment
you can actually choose thetherapist.
In many cases and most of thetime they're assigned to you and
of course, we call that agencyright.
Having the agency to say andyou use the term empowered, I
(18:45):
believe empowering ourselves tomake our own decisions for our
own care.
So I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, especially going into treatment.
You're going into treatment tomake a change in your life.
This is the ideal time to makethe first move, to give yourself
some of your power back, whichis choosing who you want to help
you.
What is a good place thatpeople can find you?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
TJwoodwardcom is probably the best place you can
learn about conscious recovery,as well as everything else I'm
up to currently.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This was great.
Thank you, it's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Thanks for tuning in to Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
one thing.
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Today, I get to speak with TJWoodward.
He's a clinician advocate,author and the founder of
Conscious Recovery.
(00:21):
In this clip, we talk aboutcomplex PTSD and some good ideas
on ways to respond to people'sreactions.
Also, we discuss finding atherapist, how to choose an
appropriate therapist and helptherapists choose appropriate
clients for themselves as well.
If you like what you hear,please like, share, subscribe
(00:42):
and tell all your friends aboutHatching Creativity.
Thank you all for joining ustoday.
I'm really excited for ourguest, tj Woodward from
Conscious Recovery.
I've been speaking with just alittle while, but we've hit it
off really well and I thinkyou've got a lot of good
information to share.
So, tj, I'm going to pass it toyou for a brief introduction
(01:04):
about who you are and what youdo.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Well, thank you, and I agree, I think we've had some
really amazing conversationsthat have been energizing for me
.
I've been working in theaddiction treatment field since
2008, and my passion is reallyhelping people reconnect with
their own passion for this workand also helping people actually
heal the underlying root causesthat drive addiction the two
(01:27):
things that were really strikingto me when I started working in
the field.
One is watching clients comeback over and over and over
again to treatment and hearingwell-meaning therapists,
counselors, coaches andclinicians saying what are you
going to do differently?
And I thought well, what can wedo differently as well?
And my work, conscious Recovery.
The foundation of it isunderneath all addictive
(01:49):
behavior is an essential selfthat's whole and perfect.
I see shame as one of thedriving forces of addiction and,
simply said, shame doesn't healshame.
So I'm looking at how we canprovide a different opportunity
for people.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
I think the first thing I want to do with you is
let's set a clear distinctionbetween guilt and shame.
Yeah, I think that's a reallyimportant topic to head on.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, and it's important because guilt and
shame are not only they don'tonly show up differently, but
how you actually heal them isreally different.
So, simply said, guilt is Ibelieve I've done something
wrong or I've done somethingwrong.
Shame is I believe that I amfundamentally, fundamentally
wrong or broken in some way.
Guilt you correct guiltbehaviorally.
(02:41):
That's why in recovery circlesthere's an amends process.
I make amends for the ways I'veharmed others and in myself
included, and Behaviorally.
That, quote-unquote fixes it.
Shame is something reallydifferent, because shame is
something much deeper.
It lives in secrecy and silence.
So the way we work with shameis we actually bring it into the
(03:02):
light, authenticity andvulnerability, creating a great
connection.
We talk a lot about attunementwith our clients, so shame
really needs a safe space to bebrought into the light and
that's the way that gets healed.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
You know, tj, I've been doing a lot of research on
this lately myself.
As you know, you don't get tobe 45 years old and not have
your own issues and things tolook into, and one of the things
that I've been hearing a lotabout is complex PTSD, and it's
kind of a newer concept that alot of people may not be aware
(03:40):
of.
Are you familiar with it?
Have you done any research onthat?
Speaker 2 (03:43):
I am, I am familiar with it, yes, absolutely and
what are your thoughts?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
maybe give a little explanation of what CPTSD is and
and kind of the differencebetween a complex PTSD and a
Standard PTSD that most peopleare more going to be more aware
of.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, I'm gonna start with saying I'm gonna be giving
my own interpretation of it, soI'm not gonna be giving like
the classic definition of whatthe two are.
But what I will say is that PTSDand many, as a matter of fact,
most Diagnoses if you look atthe DSM or if you look at how we
actually diagnose and treat, wetend to look at behaviors and
symptoms, right, and so PTSD isa cluster of symptoms, I think,
(04:27):
where, for me, when I say it'scomplex, it's multi-layered,
right.
One of the one of the thingsthat's fascinating to me is we
can have two people thatexperience something that's the
same in Real time and havecompletely different outcomes.
In other words, one person canbe in an accident, a car
(04:47):
accident, the other person canbe in one, and one has symptoms
of PTSD and the other one doesnot.
And the study that I read thatI think was the most interesting
showed something profoundlysimple, and that is people who
had more acute p at PTSDSymptoms were people who had
early childhood trauma.
So it wasn't just going to war.
(05:08):
That was traumatic, because ofcourse it is traumatic, but the
symptomology came out of notonly what was happening like,
let's say, in the 21st century,but also what was happening when
we were children and the thecurrent traumatic event was
actually triggering orActivating the trauma that was
unhealed from the past.
So that's how I kind of frameit and I know there's a lot of
(05:30):
different layers to complex PTSD.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
You know, what's really interesting about that is
, as I started learning aboutCPTSD.
It brought me back to theconversations that I've had with
myself about other people andother people's reactions to
certain Conversations andcertain things.
Sometimes you'll talk tosomebody and you'll go damn,
(05:55):
their reaction is really overthe top For what just happened.
Yeah, and you go.
It doesn't make sense to me.
But if you look at it throughthat lens of the CPTSD, you can
also say I've never walked inthat person's shoes and I
haven't experienced their lives.
(06:16):
So their response is actuallycompletely cohesive with their
feelings and their experience inlife and we can't necessarily
identify that or identify withthat.
You know of an interestingsituation that had happened was
(06:38):
a sexually discriminatingcomment towards a woman
co-worker that somebody said toher and none of the men in the
room could possibly comprehendthat this was offensive to her,
and every single woman grittedtheir teeth and made a fist and
(07:01):
it was so telling as to oh, waita second, I'm a white male.
I can't possibly have the sameunderstanding of whatever that
situation was as a female whowas in this situation.
And sometimes looking at thingsthat way can really help you
(07:22):
understand other people betterand connect with people better
and actually create lessdivision with other people too,
and that's really one.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
We could call that compassion too.
Right, what you're speaking tois actually at the core of my
work, and at the heart of mywork, because I love what Bess
Alvander-Coltz says about trauma.
He says trauma doesn't show upas a memory, it shows up as a
reaction, and so the reaction isusually something that's, for
many of us, buried deep in theunconscious or the subconscious,
(07:57):
and a lot of mental healthtreatment and addiction
treatment is focusing on what wecan see, the behaviors.
So the analogy I use because Ilike simple is if you plant a
maple seed, you're gonna grow amaple tree.
Would it be unrealistic toplant a maple seed and hope for
an elm tree?
And in the same way we look atthe seed.
(08:17):
That represents what I callcore false beliefs.
And the reason I call them corefalse beliefs is, I want to
acknowledge, that there are liesthat we've picked up about
ourselves.
This can happen in groups ofpeople, and it can happen in the
individual, and usually whathappens is we're walking around
with one of these core falsebeliefs one that's very popular,
unfortunately is I'm not worthy.
(08:38):
If I believe I'm not worthy,it's not just a thought, it's
actually this core belief that'sburied, buried deep down in the
unconscious, and I'm walkingaround vibrating with that and I
keep replicating that over andover and over again, not only
because it's all I believe I'mworthy of, but it's literally
not possible to do anythingother than that, because the
core false belief is a vibrationand it's attracted to that same
(09:01):
vibration, and so the healingis actually getting down to the
core false belief.
Another way to say it is it'sless about what happened and
more about what we decided aboutourselves as a result of what
happened, and that is individualright.
One person can have anexperience that can be very
traumatic.
They can have a very deep woundI'm stupid, I'm not good enough
(09:25):
, I'm unlovable.
Someone else can have thatexperience and it meant nothing
to them.
That's why I'm not a massivefan of the terms big T, little T
, trauma, because trauma reallyis for the individual.
What was the impact on me?
And so the healing is not justin the behaviors it's in.
Where did this originate andhow can we actually get down and
(09:45):
heal that, because it ispossible.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Wow, TJ, you know I saw your video on Core False
Beliefs and actually that wasone of the things that made me
really excited to talk with you.
And it also is kind of likethat law of attraction right, we
attract what we put out.
And, on a personal note, youknow, for years and years and
years I've been in therapydealing with all kinds of things
(10:11):
right, we all are right and oneof the things that I've noticed
is we were never able to gettoo far because we were
attacking today and the symptomstoday and maybe talking a
little bit about before.
But one of the things that wasreally helpful for me in my
(10:34):
personal journey was writing anemotional journal and
understanding my feelings onwhatever it was, because there's
always some triggering event tothose feelings, right, and that
has been really helpful in meunderstanding although it does,
(10:54):
it can be a bit more of anemotional ride than just going
at what we're currently dealingwith, but I found it to be
really helpful for me personallytoo.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Yeah, and you're really like.
I have so much passion for whatyou're saying, because therapy
is a wonderful thing and talktherapy is a wonderful thing,
and sometimes it can be limitedif we're only working with
what's happening today or we gointo narrative therapy where we
learn where the patternsoriginated.
Personally, I did that forabout a decade.
I was in therapy, I was inrecovery and I'm like, oh, I get
(11:30):
it.
Now this happened and thereforethis happens, and that's why I
react this way.
But nothing really changeduntil I started working with
this incredible therapist and hewas an engaged Buddhist and I'm
like I don't know what thatmeans, but I'm willing to learn
and it was essentially.
It is still what's happening inreal time, but it's how it's
showing up in your body, right?
Where is the reactivity thathappens in the body?
(11:53):
We use the term I love that youcalled it the triggering event
rather than the trigger, becauseusually people say my mom
triggered me, my girlfriendtriggered me, my boss triggered
me, and that's where a lot of usstop.
They shouldn't be doing that,right.
But we want to be curious, notabout what triggers us only, but
what gets activated.
(12:13):
The wound got touched and it'sgetting touched because it's
wanting to heal.
So we, yes, narrative therapy,yes, communication skills, yes,
looking at the patterns.
The deeper work is where didthis originate and how do I
start to care for the youngerself?
Because usually it's a fouryear old, a five year old, a six
year old me who made thesemajor life decisions.
(12:35):
My brain wasn't even developedenough to have a cognitive
understanding, so the solutionisn't cognitive only.
We must get down to not onlythe emotions, as you said, which
of course is the massive partof the work, but as also our
core being and really gettingdown to the deeper experience
when we decided all of this andhow it's still locked in our
(12:57):
body.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
You know, we on our last conversation we talked
about kind of spirituality andbeliefs and I just find it
really interesting that ourconversation took a.
This was not what we hadplanned on talking about today
(13:19):
and the conversation took atotal left turn when this came
up and I think it's reallyexciting to talk to somebody who
understands this and who canrelate on this level, and I
really appreciate that.
Tj, I'm also thinking, you know, this could be an ideal
(13:41):
opportunity for somebody who'slistening to this that may be
looking to find their owntherapist, maybe looking to find
somebody who can help themovercome some of the trauma and
some of their CPTSD that theyhave.
Do you have any recommendationsfor somebody looking for help?
(14:05):
How do they find a therapistwho can help them really get to
the bottom of things?
What would you say?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Well, I think we all have a different, maybe a set of
needs.
There was a time in myevolution where I did need
someone to work with thepatterns and work with the
communication skills, and thenthere was a time when I knew
that I must go deeper.
And so for me, what happened isbeing able to talk to this
person, ken, who became mytherapist, the focus that he had
(14:35):
on engaged Buddhism and I reada little bit about that and it
was really like being fullyimmersed and engaged in present
moment experience.
That to me resonated so much.
And I'm thinking when myhusband and I went to couples
counseling, which was the bestexperience we could possibly do
as a couple.
I was really clear, because Ihad worked in the field a while,
which actually I knew whichschools I wanted a therapist to
(14:58):
have graduated from, because Iknew they were doing depth
psychology.
I knew they were doingspiritual psychology.
They were doing this deeperwork, not just looking at the
patterns and the behaviors, butreally getting down to the core
of things.
And to me it's very spiritualand that word can be really
loaded.
So we could unpack thatpossibly.
But for me it was like what doI truly desire?
(15:20):
And I was at a point where Isaid I'm really ready to do the
deeper work of healing, sowhat's required is someone who's
done their own.
That could be a whole podcastin itself, but that's really my
passion is helping clinicians dotheir own healing so they can
be present with their clients.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
I love that and we are going to do one specifically
on that because I think it'ssuch a great concept.
You know, a lot of times peoplewill go in and I have to go on
into therapy.
You know it's hard enough tofind somebody that your
insurance covers and somebodywho's got time within the next
(15:58):
10 years to see you and all ofthose things right.
So once you find somebody,oftentimes you just take that
first person because you justfeel that you need to have
somebody to talk to.
But it is really important thatyou interview a therapist
before making a decision.
Even if you're going intotreatment they usually have
(16:21):
multiple therapists.
They've got different peoplethat can treat you and different
people that can work with you.
A lot of times you can ask aclinical director for
recommendations on who you cantalk to or speak with them about
different things.
But it's really important that,going in, that you advocate for
(16:43):
yourself.
It's the same thing as when yougo to a doctor and you
interview your doctor oranything else.
You know being able to advocatefor yourself and have some idea
of what you want and if maybeyou don't feel comfortable doing
that, than having somebody withyou who is not afraid to ask
difficult questions.
From your perspective, tj, as atherapist, how would you go
(17:11):
about interviewing a client tosee if you're a good, if they're
the right fit?
Speaker 2 (17:17):
for you.
Well, I think the beauty ofbeing a therapist or a counselor
in private practice, forexample, is that you really do
get to decide what your passionand your calling is.
Who do you want to work with?
For example, I have workedreally well with people who have
a borderline personalitydisorder diagnosis, even though
I'm not a big fan of the term,because there are people who
(17:40):
have usually severe attachmentwounding early in life and
they're presenting in aparticular way.
But what I loved about workingwith them was what I knew.
What they really required ordesired is to be seen and to be
heard and a deeper level ofconnection, and that's what I
love.
I love being able to be withsomeone and drop in and have a
(18:00):
deep connection.
I'm thinking of a friend of minewho couldn't be the more
opposite.
He's a therapist and he likesto work with CEOs and he likes
to be really directive.
He's like I like to tell reallypowerful people what they
should do with their life.
Right, that could not befurther than the truth from me.
The beauty of being in privatepractice is we do get to decide
what our specialty is and who wewant to work with when we work
(18:22):
in a treatment environment.
It's a different thing, right,because we get to work with a
broad spectrum of people in alot of different ways.
I love what you said.
I've never heard anyone saythat when you go into treatment
you can actually choose thetherapist.
In many cases and most of thetime they're assigned to you and
of course, we call that agencyright.
Having the agency to say andyou use the term empowered, I
(18:45):
believe empowering ourselves tomake our own decisions for our
own care.
So I love that.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Well, especially going into treatment.
You're going into treatment tomake a change in your life.
This is the ideal time to makethe first move, to give yourself
some of your power back, whichis choosing who you want to help
you.
What is a good place thatpeople can find you?
Speaker 2 (19:10):
TJwoodwardcom is probably the best place you can
learn about conscious recovery,as well as everything else I'm
up to currently.
Thank you so much for joiningus.
This was great.
Thank you, it's been an honor.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Thanks for tuning in to Hatchin' Creativity.
We appreciate your support.
Please don't forget to like andsubscribe and tell all your
friends about the show andremember it's never just about
one thing.
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