What if we told you that the path to equality for the LGBTQ+ community is paved with education, advocacy, and supportive communities? Get ready to challenge your own beliefs as we take a deep dive into the importance of understanding the unique struggles faced by the LGBTQ+ community, the unfair practice of reparative therapy, and how laws are stepping in to protect them. We also tackle the harmful culture of victim blaming, highlighting the need for empowerment and the crucial role allies play in this mission with our guest Phil McCabe.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just like someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual.
You can't turn them straight.
You just cannot do that.
That's why we have laws againstreparative therapy in the
United States, but those lawswhy there might be.
I think now we have 29 statesthat prohibit reparative therapy
or conversion therapy,sometimes referred to as pray
(00:40):
the gay way.
I may be wrong on that numberof states, but I know New Jersey
was the second state to outlawit.
But there's a number of states,particularly in the Midwest or
the Bible Belt, where youngpeople are being sent to these
camps and they're being forcedto modify their behavior,
restrict their behavior, as ifthey could become heterosexual,
(01:00):
and it doesn't happen.
There is no evidence that showsreparative or conversion therapy
can be successful.
It has been spoken out againstby the American Psychiatric
Association, americanPsychiatric, psychology,
pediatrics, social Work,addiction Counselors we all have
statements against reparativetherapy and yet there are still
(01:21):
individuals who try to offer it.
In New Jersey it's consideredunethical and actually it's you
could be.
I don't want to talk about justin our state because I'm very
proud of our state that ourAttorney General took it very
serious and said if you areoffering that to someone, you're
committing consumer fraud.
Not only is it harmful to them,but it's also fraud and that's
(01:42):
why we put a stop to thepractice here in New Jersey.
You know there's so many littlethings that are happening and
what we're seeing now is, as wemade progress for a number of
years, the previousadministration pushed us back
and we are now dealing with theimplications of that pushback.
(02:03):
I just use, you know, some otherexamples there's.
There have been protests andand harassments, and people have
found their voice and empoweredthemselves.
You know, 1959 was the firstknown activity where someone
said to the, to the policeofficers who were in the shop
it's not right.
You know we didn't do anythingwrong.
Here's the Cooper's donut,which is a donor shop in LA.
(02:24):
They were inside the donor shophaving coffee and chit,
chatting, like a lot of peopledo after a night on the town,
and the police came in typicallyto harass them, particularly if
they were trans or drag queensor commercial.
You know certified sex I'msorry, not certified sex workers
, that's me you know sex workers.
You know engaging inprostitution yes, that might
(02:44):
have been illegal activity, butthey weren't doing it in the
coffee shop, they were justhaving a cup of coffee and
talking with their friends.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So Go ahead, mike.
What I'd like to do is talkinga little bit about solution.
Let's talk a little bit aboutfirst.
If you feel that you're beingharassed or being treated
unfairly, what can somebody doin order to speak up?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Mike, I just want to make an observation here also
because, yes, what is importantfor LGBT individuals to find
their voice and to feel in power.
That also goes back it kind ofhas its roots to what we refer
to as victim blaming, that ifyou're the one being abused and
you're the one that has tocorrect the situation, well,
what about the rest of society?
That's where allies are soimportant.
(03:33):
Allies are the ones that standup and say wait a minute.
I don't know what you're basingthat information on, but it's
inaccurate.
I know many LGBT clients, Iknow many LGBT counselors, and
that's not what they do orthat's not what they need.
So again, yes, gay people shouldfeel empowered, should be able
to address and confronthomophobia and transphobia and
(03:53):
other biphobia that exists, butat the same time, we as a
community also and there aremany people I think that's what
we're dealing with in ourpolitical strife right now, as
much as there has been apushback and it feels like
sometimes with all theseincrease in anti-LGBT
legislation particularly womenin sports is what they're
(04:14):
referring to it as, but it'sreally an anti-trans bill and
it's showing up in manydifferent areas.
I think that there are manypeople who say wait a minute.
I don't think that's true, Idon't think that's really
necessary, I don't think it'sgoing to hurt someone if there's
a transgender person on theteam, and I also know that
there's a right to privacy whenyou're using a restroom or a
changing room or a bathroomfacility.
(04:36):
So why are we all suddenthreatened by someone who might
be perceived as being anothergender coming into a restaurant?
I mean, if they're there forillegal activities, of course
that's illegal, but just to goin to use a restroom should not
be challenged because of howsomeone appears to be and
someone else thinks they mightbe trans or expressing their
gender differently.
But I think, going back to theidea behind this, that's why
(04:59):
allies are so important and Ibelieve that the better we
educate allies, then we'll havethose clinicians or we'll have
those family members or friendswho say, hey, wait a minute, I
don't think that's true, or wecan stop that.
Stop repeating a distortion,stop believing a lie.
We can do better.
I think that goes back to thetreatment community is when we
(05:20):
say we need to do better and wecan do better, and we do have
resources available to helppeople do better.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So you know what I think is also really important.
You talk about allies, and Iagree with you.
The ally speaking up is evenmore important, but also the
allies being cognizant of themessage that they want to be
sharing.
Oftentimes, when people run outof facts, without you know when
(05:50):
you run out of facts, or maybewhen you're arguing with
somebody who has no argumentbased in the facts, right, you
know, there's an expression Idon't know if you're familiar
with Sam Harris, but Sam Harrishad an expression and he says
you know, if somebody doesn'tvalue evidence, you're never
going to give them enoughevidence to make them value it.
(06:12):
And I think that's reallyimportant because, coming from
an allies perspective, as soonas it devolves into name-calling
, arguing anything outside offacts, it works against what
you're trying to do.
In fact, you just you're,you're worsening the situation.
(06:32):
And I'm not saying to betolerant of ignorance, because
there's no tolerance.
There should be no tolerancefor ignorance.
It should be about trying toeducate the ignorant and be able
to provide good facts that aregoing to back what your argument
is, as opposed to getting intothose kinds of arguments that
(06:55):
are just about the other personrather than the facts.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
You know, there, unfortunately, are some
individuals who are comfortablein their ignorance, which is
really unfortunate because,again, as much as the work that
I'm doing is important thecontributions that you are
making are important it also hasto be a change that occurs not
just with the individual, notjust in their immediate family,
(07:23):
but also in their community, butalso in society in general, and
each of us can make that change.
In public health, we talkedabout the social ecological
model, which is how we do bringabout change.
So not only do we need thebelief and the change in the
belief systems that are outthere that are anti or harassing
or discriminating or bullyingor stigmatizing or creating
(07:44):
prejudice against LGBTindividuals.
We also need to make a changethat we have laws of protection
and many of those laws ofprotection have been written,
but at the same time, they'reoften ignored or people are
attempting to rewrite them toexclude LGBT individuals.
Mike, if I can just for amoment go back and remind people
(08:05):
that you know we've seen lawsand policy change and then we're
seeing a pushback.
You know President Obamarepealed the Don't Ask, don't
Tell, which allowed militarypersonnel to be open in their
transitioning or in their comingout, and then we had another
administration where they deniedit.
(08:26):
And then we're back to now.
President Biden has againreversed the ban on transgender
people in the military, whichwent into effected January 21.
So this political strife thatwe're seeing why you don't have
to be a service member torecognize that it's creating an
undercurrent around our country.
So there are a lot of resourcesavailable.
I encourage people to check outnowgaporg N-A-L-G-A-Porg that's
(08:52):
our website.
We have a lot of resources onthere that can help individuals.
The important thing, going backto the treatment community, is
many times in treatment gaypeople have been treated only
with a minimum level oftolerance, sometimes not even
help to feel welcome.
But we need to move from thatunwelcoming environment to a
(09:15):
welcoming environment, toenvironment that's also
affirmative, and I think that'swhat we'll be talking about next
time, mike how the spectrum oftreatment that we can offer to
people needs not to just torecognize LGBT individuals but
to help to affirm them in theiridentity, in their gender
expression and also within theircommunity, because that's where
it does come back to the wholecommunity.
(09:36):
Recovery for me, is aboutconnection.
Addiction was about isolation,so it's really important and
I've seen, unfortunately, peoplegoing into treatment who are
LGBT identified and told don'tworry about that right now, just
focus on your alcohol and druguse and that other stuff will
get sorted out later.
No, it's the issue they'recoming in with, and if we
(09:57):
connect them to a community thatsupports their recovery and
LGBT affirmative community, it'sgoing to be really important.
Many clinicians aren't reallysure how or when to do that, so
I would love to carry theconversation with you, mike, in
our future where we move intosome of those components.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, Phil, thank you so much for coming on today.
I appreciate your time andeverything you put together.
This is really good.
Maybe we can share thisslideshow.
If you're okay with sending itto me, I'd be happy to link it
onto onto the podcast.
And yeah, guys, I can't wait tobring Phil back on and talk a
(10:33):
little bit more about thetreatment world and the center
of excellence, the things we'redoing together.
Phil, thank you so much forjoining us today and I look
forward to the next one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
All right.
Thank you, mike.
Happy to be here and thankeverybody who's listening.
Thanks so much, phil.
Welcome to Hatching Creativity.
This isn't just anotherbehavioral health podcast.
This is the place where thoughtleaders converge to talk about
real life challenges,breakthroughs and pivotal aha
moments.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Just like someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual.
You can't turn them straight.
You just cannot do that.
That's why we have laws againstreparative therapy in the
United States, but those lawswhy there might be.
I think now we have 29 statesthat prohibit reparative therapy
or conversion therapy,sometimes referred to as pray
(00:40):
the gay way.
I may be wrong on that numberof states, but I know New Jersey
was the second state to outlawit.
But there's a number of states,particularly in the Midwest or
the Bible Belt, where youngpeople are being sent to these
camps and they're being forcedto modify their behavior,
restrict their behavior, as ifthey could become heterosexual,
(01:00):
and it doesn't happen.
There is no evidence that showsreparative or conversion therapy
can be successful.
It has been spoken out againstby the American Psychiatric
Association, americanPsychiatric, psychology,
pediatrics, social Work,addiction Counselors we all have
statements against reparativetherapy and yet there are still
(01:21):
individuals who try to offer it.
In New Jersey it's consideredunethical and actually it's you
could be.
I don't want to talk about justin our state because I'm very
proud of our state that ourAttorney General took it very
serious and said if you areoffering that to someone, you're
committing consumer fraud.
Not only is it harmful to them,but it's also fraud and that's
(01:42):
why we put a stop to thepractice here in New Jersey.
You know there's so many littlethings that are happening and
what we're seeing now is, as wemade progress for a number of
years, the previousadministration pushed us back
and we are now dealing with theimplications of that pushback.
(02:03):
I just use, you know, some otherexamples there's.
There have been protests andand harassments, and people have
found their voice and empoweredthemselves.
You know, 1959 was the firstknown activity where someone
said to the, to the policeofficers who were in the shop
it's not right.
You know we didn't do anythingwrong.
Here's the Cooper's donut,which is a donor shop in LA.
(02:24):
They were inside the donor shophaving coffee and chit,
chatting, like a lot of peopledo after a night on the town,
and the police came in typicallyto harass them, particularly if
they were trans or drag queensor commercial.
You know certified sex I'msorry, not certified sex workers
, that's me you know sex workers.
You know engaging inprostitution yes, that might
(02:44):
have been illegal activity, butthey weren't doing it in the
coffee shop, they were justhaving a cup of coffee and
talking with their friends.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So Go ahead, mike.
What I'd like to do is talkinga little bit about solution.
Let's talk a little bit aboutfirst.
If you feel that you're beingharassed or being treated
unfairly, what can somebody doin order to speak up?
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Mike, I just want to make an observation here also
because, yes, what is importantfor LGBT individuals to find
their voice and to feel in power.
That also goes back it kind ofhas its roots to what we refer
to as victim blaming, that ifyou're the one being abused and
you're the one that has tocorrect the situation, well,
what about the rest of society?
That's where allies are soimportant.
(03:33):
Allies are the ones that standup and say wait a minute.
I don't know what you're basingthat information on, but it's
inaccurate.
I know many LGBT clients, Iknow many LGBT counselors, and
that's not what they do orthat's not what they need.
So again, yes, gay people shouldfeel empowered, should be able
to address and confronthomophobia and transphobia and
(03:53):
other biphobia that exists, butat the same time, we as a
community also and there aremany people I think that's what
we're dealing with in ourpolitical strife right now, as
much as there has been apushback and it feels like
sometimes with all theseincrease in anti-LGBT
legislation particularly womenin sports is what they're
(04:14):
referring to it as, but it'sreally an anti-trans bill and
it's showing up in manydifferent areas.
I think that there are manypeople who say wait a minute.
I don't think that's true, Idon't think that's really
necessary, I don't think it'sgoing to hurt someone if there's
a transgender person on theteam, and I also know that
there's a right to privacy whenyou're using a restroom or a
changing room or a bathroomfacility.
(04:36):
So why are we all suddenthreatened by someone who might
be perceived as being anothergender coming into a restaurant?
I mean, if they're there forillegal activities, of course
that's illegal, but just to goin to use a restroom should not
be challenged because of howsomeone appears to be and
someone else thinks they mightbe trans or expressing their
gender differently.
But I think, going back to theidea behind this, that's why
(04:59):
allies are so important and Ibelieve that the better we
educate allies, then we'll havethose clinicians or we'll have
those family members or friendswho say, hey, wait a minute, I
don't think that's true, or wecan stop that.
Stop repeating a distortion,stop believing a lie.
We can do better.
I think that goes back to thetreatment community is when we
(05:20):
say we need to do better and wecan do better, and we do have
resources available to helppeople do better.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
So you know what I think is also really important.
You talk about allies, and Iagree with you.
The ally speaking up is evenmore important, but also the
allies being cognizant of themessage that they want to be
sharing.
Oftentimes, when people run outof facts, without you know when
(05:50):
you run out of facts, or maybewhen you're arguing with
somebody who has no argumentbased in the facts, right, you
know, there's an expression Idon't know if you're familiar
with Sam Harris, but Sam Harrishad an expression and he says
you know, if somebody doesn'tvalue evidence, you're never
going to give them enoughevidence to make them value it.
(06:12):
And I think that's reallyimportant because, coming from
an allies perspective, as soonas it devolves into name-calling
, arguing anything outside offacts, it works against what
you're trying to do.
In fact, you just you're,you're worsening the situation.
(06:32):
And I'm not saying to betolerant of ignorance, because
there's no tolerance.
There should be no tolerancefor ignorance.
It should be about trying toeducate the ignorant and be able
to provide good facts that aregoing to back what your argument
is, as opposed to getting intothose kinds of arguments that
(06:55):
are just about the other personrather than the facts.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
You know, there, unfortunately, are some
individuals who are comfortablein their ignorance, which is
really unfortunate because,again, as much as the work that
I'm doing is important thecontributions that you are
making are important it also hasto be a change that occurs not
just with the individual, notjust in their immediate family,
(07:23):
but also in their community, butalso in society in general, and
each of us can make that change.
In public health, we talkedabout the social ecological
model, which is how we do bringabout change.
So not only do we need thebelief and the change in the
belief systems that are outthere that are anti or harassing
or discriminating or bullyingor stigmatizing or creating
(07:44):
prejudice against LGBTindividuals.
We also need to make a changethat we have laws of protection
and many of those laws ofprotection have been written,
but at the same time, they'reoften ignored or people are
attempting to rewrite them toexclude LGBT individuals.
Mike, if I can just for amoment go back and remind people
(08:05):
that you know we've seen lawsand policy change and then we're
seeing a pushback.
You know President Obamarepealed the Don't Ask, don't
Tell, which allowed militarypersonnel to be open in their
transitioning or in their comingout, and then we had another
administration where they deniedit.
(08:26):
And then we're back to now.
President Biden has againreversed the ban on transgender
people in the military, whichwent into effected January 21.
So this political strife thatwe're seeing why you don't have
to be a service member torecognize that it's creating an
undercurrent around our country.
So there are a lot of resourcesavailable.
I encourage people to check outnowgaporg N-A-L-G-A-Porg that's
(08:52):
our website.
We have a lot of resources onthere that can help individuals.
The important thing, going backto the treatment community, is
many times in treatment gaypeople have been treated only
with a minimum level oftolerance, sometimes not even
help to feel welcome.
But we need to move from thatunwelcoming environment to a
(09:15):
welcoming environment, toenvironment that's also
affirmative, and I think that'swhat we'll be talking about next
time, mike how the spectrum oftreatment that we can offer to
people needs not to just torecognize LGBT individuals but
to help to affirm them in theiridentity, in their gender
expression and also within theircommunity, because that's where
it does come back to the wholecommunity.
(09:36):
Recovery for me, is aboutconnection.
Addiction was about isolation,so it's really important and
I've seen, unfortunately, peoplegoing into treatment who are
LGBT identified and told don'tworry about that right now, just
focus on your alcohol and druguse and that other stuff will
get sorted out later.
No, it's the issue they'recoming in with, and if we
(09:57):
connect them to a community thatsupports their recovery and
LGBT affirmative community, it'sgoing to be really important.
Many clinicians aren't reallysure how or when to do that, so
I would love to carry theconversation with you, mike, in
our future where we move intosome of those components.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Well, Phil, thank you so much for coming on today.
I appreciate your time andeverything you put together.
This is really good.
Maybe we can share thisslideshow.
If you're okay with sending itto me, I'd be happy to link it
onto onto the podcast.
And yeah, guys, I can't wait tobring Phil back on and talk a
(10:33):
little bit more about thetreatment world and the center
of excellence, the things we'redoing together.
Phil, thank you so much forjoining us today and I look
forward to the next one.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
All right.
Thank you, mike.
Happy to be here and thankeverybody who's listening.
Thanks so much, phil.
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